Login

Register

Member List

RSS Feed

Amanda | Contact

Auguste | Contact

Jesse | Contact

Pam | Contact

Next entry: Teh Stoopid of Santorum—it burns Previous entry: Georgia to gay parent - do not ‘expose’ kids to the homos

Take Responsibility

imageLast night on Hardball, I watched Pat Buchanan take on Michael Eric Dyson on Eric Holder’s comments about America’s cowardice in terms of discussing race.  First, what Holder said was true.  Second, watching that show was like watching a ferret take on a uncovered table fan.

Jonah Goldberg’s take is a good summation of much of Buchanan’s point: we already talk about race too much!  We refuse to bow to the race gestapo!  I’d eat chocolate Twinkies!  The rest of Buchanan’s rant circled around the need for “personal responsibility” in the black community, which is exactly the sort of cowardice Holder was referencing, and what I’d like to discuss.

Buchanan pointed out the sad statistics that plague the black community, from crime to family structure.  But he did the very thing that makes an honest conversation on race so terribly difficult to have - he treated the statistics as if they simply arose out of the ether, the product of a series of conscious decisions on the part of black people to sling drugs and live in ghettos.  But the history of America, even to this day, revolves around how the white majority has chosen to shape our communities, and the steps to which they’ve gone to mask the nature of their decisions. 

Suppose you were an upwardly mobile black family at any time in the 20th century, and you wanted to move somewhere.  Chances are, you’d choose a neighborhood with affordable housing, good schools and the like.  Chances are, you’d also be moving into a predominantly white neighborhood with neighbors who were convinced that you’d bring with you crime, disruption and a lowering of property values.  Inevitably, after resistance, one of two things would happen: either the black presence would be repelled back to acceptable black neighborhoods, or the black presence would reach a tipping point and white people would move out, first to the old inner-ring suburbs and then out into the former boonies and now the places where the malls are at.  White resistance and white flight created the very crime-ridden, poverty-stricken communities they feared, and now Pat Buchanan and his ilk get to sit back and lecture the black community on the plight they created.

Ever wonder why suburbs have nicer roads (in fact, roads to them at all)?  Why they’re often so carefully tailored and drawn as to avoid any connection with areas that lack the same racial hegemony?  The great welfare fight of the past 40 years has been (in the public mind) over black people getting public money to live in shitty urban housing and take the bus; the untold welfare story of the same time period has the great public subsidization and restructuring of society to allow white people the ability to avoid black people.  The highway system, the placement and scope of public housing, the grading of neighborhoods for FHA loan approvals, the constant new incorporation of microtowns with their own tax bases, so on and so forth - black people didn’t choose the ghetto, the ghetto was chosen for them. 

There is responsibility that needs to be taken, by everyone in American society.  But we’re not going to be able to improve the black community until the great deprivation of resources that shaped it is admitted and rectified in way that doesn’t place shame on black people for needing help to get to even ground. 

 

------

Registration is now required! We're still in the process of getting it all squared away, so for the moment don't forget to Login or Register using the links in the upper left menu before starting to write your comment.

Posted by Jesse Taylor on 07:57 AM • (118) Comments

You forgot the biggest obstacle to the epansion and success of public transportation was that it would allow “the blacks” to move in the neighborhood.  Gwinnett County, Georgia and many other Metropolitan Atlanta Suburban Areas have fought public transportation tooth and nail for decades for just that reason.  Gwinnett stands at the pinnacle of generally corrupt, racist counties in America, one can’t help but be impressed by their accomplishments.  I kid you not.

Comment #1: knowdoubt  on  02/20  at  09:11 AM

“The great welfare fight of the past 40 years has been (in the public mind) over black people getting public money to live in shitty urban housing and take the bus; the untold welfare story of the same time period has the great public subsidization and restructuring of society to allow white people the ability to avoid black people.  The highway system, the placement and scope of public housing, the grading of neighborhoods for FHA loan approvals, the constant new incorporation of microtowns with their own tax bases, so on and so forth - black people didn’t choose the ghetto, the ghetto was chosen for them.”

Brilliant. Great fuel for the next inevitable argument with my Buchanan-loving relatives.

Comment #2: Margo  on  02/20  at  09:31 AM

“The great welfare fight of the past 40 years has been (in the public mind) over black people getting public money to live in shitty urban housing and take the bus;

The other part of that fight has been the integration of poor black folks into relations of capitalist accumulation.  Force work requirements on them—turn them into wage slaves for corporate America—while requiring them to place their children in other people’s care.

Welfare was once about providing support for women to raise their children. In 1996, the US changed that into training them to be wage laborers so they could pay someone else to do that child-care work. Commodify everything!!!!

Comment #3: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  02/20  at  09:50 AM

Race is one of the factors at play, but class is another that plays a big part, too.  Zoning laws have been misused to keep minorities out of the white areas, but they also keep out the poor (and those who want to live a frugal life.)  Minimum lot sizes for homes, restrictions on architecture types, and many other zoning code items have stifled the creative, the thrifty, and the poor from moving into the suburbs from the get-go.  Yes, those bastards wanted a white community, but they also wanted white conformity.

But back to racism, I’d argue that it’s money rather than racism that keeps most minorities in the ghettos now.  I also know damn well that racism over generations is what made most of those minorities poor.  What I and many others haven’t figured out is how to work to solve the economic issue without having to constantly assuage people that the racism of yesteryear isn’t their fault but still needs to be acknowledged if we’re to end its lasting effects.  It always comes down to “I’m not responsible for the past” for some people.  A refusal to see the cause of a problem makes it difficult to get to a solution.

We’re definitely a cowardly nation when it comes to discussing sex, class, history, religion, drugs, crime, finance, and race.  Reality is too scary for some people, so they’d rather seek distractions like the potential influx of minority pedophile welfare queen sluts using government checks to buy overpriced shoes, saggy pants,  and discount baby food if a discount stripmall zoning approval is granted.  I could get elected to the Senate on a rant like that.

Comment #4: 3letterjon  on  02/20  at  10:04 AM

“...black presence would reach a tipping point and white people would move out, first to the old inner-ring suburbs and then out into the former boonies and now the places where the malls are at.  White resistance and white flight created the very crime-ridden, poverty-stricken communities they feared, and now Pat Buchanan and his ilk get to sit back and lecture the black community on the plight they created.”

I find it pretty sanctimonious to think that blacks need whites in their communities to prevent them from becoming ghettos. You argue the very stereotype “Chances are, you’d also be moving into a predominantly white neighborhood with neighbors who were convinced that you’d bring with you crime, disruption and a lowering of property values” with the second paragraph stating that
“white flight” would automatically cause a community to become crime and poverty stricken.

Perhaps education, decent working wages, and equal opportunity might be more beneficial to poverty problems in this country. With crime and poverty so closely linked, addressing the lack of resources available to the poor in a real world way would probably help with the crime problems as well. People making money, being fed, and having shelter tend to commit less crime than those who are hungry, living on the street and struggling to survive. Then, the demographics wouldn’t really matter in a given neighborhood.

Comment #5: Spanky  on  02/20  at  10:05 AM

“In 1996, the US changed that into training them to be wage laborers so they could pay someone else to do that child-care work.”

...which combined with the decline in real wages for the last 30+ years, especially at the wage lowest levels, plus limited options for buying essentials (that are often priced above average), as well as limited transportation options, and you have the modern equivalent of the Truck System.  Which is why it’s so difficult to break the cycle.

As a person who is not the product of inherited wealth and position, it’s probable that President Obama can relate to this, unlike the last dickhead we had for POTUS.

OTOH, it’s probable that William Jefferson Clinton could understand it too…but that didn’t stop him from signing the 1996 welfare legislation…

Comment #6: MikeEss  on  02/20  at  10:11 AM

OTOH, it’s probable that William Jefferson Clinton could understand it too…but that didn’t stop him from signing the 1996 welfare legislation…

Neo-liberals all the way down…..

Comment #7: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  02/20  at  10:19 AM

“Perhaps education, decent working wages, and equal opportunity might be more beneficial to poverty problems in this country. With crime and poverty so closely linked, addressing the lack of resources available to the poor in a real world way would probably help with the crime problems as well. People making money, being fed, and having shelter tend to commit less crime than those who are hungry, living on the street and struggling to survive. Then, the demographics wouldn’t really matter in a given neighborhood.”

Sounds great.  Now all we have to do is convince the top 1% in America they can get by with slightly less so the people at the bottom can have more.  But in a world where some large segment of American society believes auto workers, for example, are unfairly earning $70/hour and unfairly getting government-backed loans to buy houses they don’t deserve — and this is why the economy is collapsing, not because (as Atrios puts it) a bunch of bankers took our money to the racetrack — good luck convincing the top to care about the bottom…

Comment #8: MikeEss  on  02/20  at  10:27 AM

Great fuel for the next inevitable argument with my Buchanan-loving relatives.

If your right wing family is anything like my right wing family, they will glare patronizingly in your direction, make a snide reference to tin foil hats, and persist in their racism.

It’s amazing that a group of people who sincerely believe that Barack Obama wants to create community volunteer programs because what he really means is “my own private Gestapo”, assume that plain facts you can look up in any good urban design textbook are just a bunch of conspiracy theories.

Comment #9: The Opoponax  on  02/20  at  10:37 AM

“Suppose you were an upwardly mobile [1: black][2: white] family at any time in the 20th century, and you wanted to move somewhere.  Chances are, you’d choose a neighborhood with affordable housing, good schools and the like.”

It’s interesting how, depending on which bracketed term you use, the foregoing sentence is either describes (1) an innocent hypothethical or (2) a nefarious plot.  If we’re going to assign moral culpability to the act of leaving your present community for a community with affordable housing, good schools and the like, then I think you have to consider the decision of any “upwardly mobile” family to “move somewhere” critically, whether that family is black or white. 

To be clear, I have absolutely no sympathy for bigots who try to exclude people who don’t like themselves from their communities; they deserve all the scorn we can muster.  The other group of people this post indicts (those who express their preference for places with affordable housing and good schools) are acting with the same rationale that guides all “upwardly mobile” families, and they don’t deserve the calumny.  (Unless, of course, we want to address our national cowardice on the subject of class.)

Comment #10: southpaw  on  02/20  at  10:41 AM

Well said Jesse.

And I can’t help but come back to this, over and over again.  What kind of honest of conversation about anything is possible with path buchanan?  Seriously, this is first level of gaming bullshit the media plays.  From the start, buchanan isn’t going to say anything “honest” in any sense of the word as most of us understand it.  So parsing buchanan’s bullshit is just that, it couldn’t possibly result in anything but parsed bullshit.  It’s like hiring rick santorum to speak a midwestern university on the subject if Islam.  I mean, who in the hell would do that?

Comment #11: ice weasel  on  02/20  at  10:42 AM

It’s interesting how, depending on which bracketed term you use, the foregoing sentence is either describes (1) <strike>an innocent hypothethical</strike> the apotheosis of Teh Murkin Dreeem or (2) a nefarious plot.

Fixed.

Comment #12: The Opoponax  on  02/20  at  10:52 AM

(Unless, of course, we want to address our national cowardice on the subject of class.)

QFT. Technically, even the conservatives agree there’s a race problem (they just think the race problem is that other races exist…). But in America, the very existence of such a thing as ‘social class’ is a controversial topic. Whatever do you mean friend? This is America, where everyone can be as successful as they want to be! This is a classless society, except not like that Marx fella described, cuz that would be commienism.

Comment #13: BlackBloc  on  02/20  at  10:59 AM

If we’re going to assign moral culpability to the act of leaving your present community for a community with affordable housing, good schools and the like, then I think you have to consider the decision of any “upwardly mobile” family to “move somewhere” critically, whether that family is black or white.

We are. 

Moving to a better house and a better neighborhood is perfectly fine.  For some bizarre and completely inexplicable reason, many white homeowners for decades have totally randomly decided that black people moving into their neighborhoods is a perfect impetus to find a “better” home.  That’s the point.

“I don’t want to live in this cramped-ass apartment in the one section of the city you’ve decreed I can live in” is a far different motivation than “Uh-oh, Nigger-os!”

We can judge each critically, but it sounds like you’re wishing to push historically white motivations into black homeowners in order to impugn everyone and push us back to the Buchanan equilibrium.

Comment #14: Jesse Taylor  on  02/20  at  11:04 AM

And to be clear, the problem with the “affordable housing and better schools” argument is that it’s been a long time mask for “avoiding black people”.  The presumption that black entry will drive down quality of life leads to black entry driving down quality of life, particularly as people pulled up roots in long time neighborhoods to avoid them.

Comment #15: Jesse Taylor  on  02/20  at  11:07 AM

“Perhaps education, decent working wages, and equal opportunity might be more beneficial to poverty problems in this country. With crime and poverty so closely linked, addressing the lack of resources available to the poor in a real world way would probably help with the crime problems as well. People making money, being fed, and having shelter tend to commit less crime than those who are hungry, living on the street and struggling to survive. Then, the demographics wouldn’t really matter in a given neighborhood.”

Sounds grand, but Jesse was talking about what actually happened in the past.

Southpaw, I think ‘White flight’ was different because it was operating independent of ‘class flight.’ That certainly happened in Detroit. (Where as recently as the great blackout of 2003, or whenever, there were news reports that the suburban police departments were deploying road blocks along their borders with the City of Detroit soon after the lights went out)

As too the process of whites creating ghettos, James Loewen makes an arguemtn in “Sundown Towns” that the sorta idea that I (and I think a lot of white people) had in my head that blacks sorta naturally moved to the cities and areas they moved to, just like Irish came to Boston, is wrong. He uses census data to show the black people had spread out all over the Midwest, West and border states, (the deep South is a different phenomenom, Loewen says) before being driven away by whites around the turn of the (19th) century. This happened by towns saying formally or informally that they were whites-only.

Think about your own families, where your ancestors were 100 years ago and whether that matters to where you are now. I think it does in my case. Grandma was given up for adoption by her parents (we don’t know details, that I’ve ever heard) and adopted by an MD in Mt. Pleasant, MI.  She got to go to U of M and get a degree, where she met my grand dad.

They weren’t ever chased out of Mt. Pleasant, taking only what they could carry and unable to enforce their rights to their property and/or businesses. (There’s a good thing to mention to Buchanite relatives. They’ll salivate just a bit at the very invocation of the phrase ‘property rights.’)

And Sundown Towning is just one thing in a myriad of things.

Comment #16: witless chum  on  02/20  at  11:21 AM

Oh and

““I don’t want to live in this cramped-ass apartment in the one section of the city you’ve decreed I can live in” is a far different motivation than “Uh-oh, Nigger-os!””

Sir, are you trying to get me fired for laughing my ass off at work?

Comment #17: witless chum  on  02/20  at  11:24 AM

“good luck convincing the top to care about the bottom…”

Screw convincing. The issue needs to be forced through progressive tax codes and progressive community based programs funded through that taxation.

The middle class, while vanishing rapidly, has always feared becoming lower class. The right wing of this country has convinced large portions of this demographic that progressive policies will outright lead to that fear being realized. You have to convince those in the middle tax brackets that addressing poverty will help protect their interests as well as help those in the lower brackets.

The lower and middle classes of this country are natural allies who have the ability to shape the political course of this country if they could ever realize it. Breaking down the barriers between these two groups, which sadly would slant heavily on dealing with racism as that has largely been the wedge driven between them, would create a group with the largest voting strength in this country.

Convincing people of this is another matter.

Comment #18: Spanky  on  02/20  at  11:24 AM

I watched the end of that show and whoever the old white guy was filling in was actually worse than Matthews.  He kept harping on teen pregnancy and the destruction of the Af-Am family as the reasons for black poverty and how the black community had to take responsibility for that.

I call bullshit.  Poverty precedes teen pregnancy.  Let me say that again.  Poverty precedes teen pregnancy.  The proper question to ask is not “Why”, it is “why not”.  Only the exceptional children ever get out of the inner city—the outliers.  And if you don’t think the average kids know there is no seat at the table for them, you’re crazy. Go to the inner city and try to tell a B or C student with no special athletic ability or virtuoso ability that s/he can go to college and make it in the world and be middle class someday.  S/he will look at you like you just fell out of a tree.

Single motherhood?  Well, take a look at the incarceration rates of Af-Ams. 1/3rd of the Af-Am males between 18-25 are in prison.  Does not make for building families and when they get out, they have a harder time finding jobs, while their white counterparts have several year’s head start.  And before anyone goes apeshit about “oh, the criminality”, most of those incarcerations are for drug violations.  Drug use is equal across racial lines.  Yes, equal across racial lines. So, if that’s true, are 33% of white males between 18-25 in prison?  Hardly.  Blacks make up 12% of our population but 50% of our prisoners, BUT law breaking on this drug thing is equal across racial lines.  If those numbers don’t show an unequal and racially motivated enforcement of these laws, I can’t imagine what will. 

These white men don’t seem to have a problem opining about these issues, despite their innocence of any and all facts or factors that create that situation.  Add in the fact that on top of their racist blindness, they add a dash of misogyny as if the simple lack of a penis about the house is the cause of all the ills in the world and you get the main ingredient in the Coward Pie.

Comment #19: ChristinaM33  on  02/20  at  11:26 AM

A bit OT, but about Buchanan:

When writing about foreign policy Buchanan often sounds fairly rational. But get him talking about most anything that occurs within the borders of the US and he suddenly turns into this crazed know-nothing. Buchanan has gone on Lou Dobbs and talked about how Mexico is invading the southwest USA… that we ought to consider mass immigration of people who mostly pick fruits and then send money back home to be the same as a military invasion. Whatever you may think about immigration, and yes there are rational reasons to be worried a high level of immigration, to call the immigration an ‘invasion’ is not only bad analysis, but its not really in the interests of US, as I see them. The US has to live with Mexico.

I can’t tell if the problem is that Buchanan has a huge blind spot about blacks and latinos but is otherwise sane? Or maybe our current neoconservative foreign policy is so utterly mad and without redeeming feature that Buchanan sounds sane in comparison? I tend to lean on the former explanation.

Comment #20: atheist  on  02/20  at  11:48 AM

If it were up to me, talking with Buchanan, I would probably go for the frontal attack. I’d say to him, “Mr. Buchanan, your ancestors, like mine, were of the group of poor Europeans who immigrated to the US in the 1800s, to pick up jobs and work for extremely cheap wages. If our ancestors had faced the same kinds of obstacles that the African Americans had faced, you and I would likely both be living in trailer parks or ghettos, on public assistance, siring unruly broods of neglected children, and in general comporting ourselves in a way that you find irresponsible. I say you and I would be doing this now, sir.”

But then, I’m an asshole.

Comment #21: atheist  on  02/20  at  11:58 AM

...how the black community had to take responsibility for that.

How is it that The Black Community has to take responsibility for the phenomenon of teen pregnancy (and whatever else), but The White Community gets a magical Get Out Of Blame Free card for all racist policies and social systems, forever?

Comment #22: The Opoponax  on  02/20  at  12:02 PM

Oh, and just by the way, no, it’s not about class; it’s about race. Racism in the real estate business is one of the things that the housing meltdown has made even more obvious, with clear documentation of black families steered to significantly more expensive mortgages than white families with similar income and expense numbers. (And that’s even without getting to the widely-spread evidence of real estate agents just not showing black people houses or apartments in neighborhood where they, uh, wouldn’t fit in.)

Comment #23: paul  on  02/20  at  12:13 PM

Oh, and just by the way, no, it’s not about class; it’s about race.

Exactly. Racial inequality is not an epiphenomenon of class.

Comment #24: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  02/20  at  12:22 PM

Atheist, I would say that when writing about foreign policy Buchanan sounds like a pre-WWII isolationist, so labeling him “rational” is too generous. Had he written in the 1930s / 1940s instead of now, he would have probably denounced Cash & Carry and Lend-Lease while also calling FDR “Franklin Delano Rosenberg” for a bit of color.

Comment #25: Dan2108  on  02/20  at  12:25 PM


I find it pretty sanctimonious to think that blacks need whites in their communities to prevent them from becoming ghettos. You argue the very stereotype “Chances are, you’d also be moving into a predominantly white neighborhood with neighbors who were convinced that you’d bring with you crime, disruption and a lowering of property values” with the second paragraph stating that
“white flight” would automatically cause a community to become crime and poverty stricken.

There is, though, a real issue that state and local elected officials tend to suddenly lose interest in maintaining the roads, schools, and libraries in the newly majority-black areas. There’s also the problem that the departing whites tended to shutter their businesses as they leave, and then banks tended not to issue small business loans to black entrepreneurs. The result is a neighborhood with few jobs, failing infrastructure, and a rising crime rate among unemployed and ill-educated teenagers. That’s a ghetto by any other name.

Comment #26: Llelldorin  on  02/20  at  01:21 PM

I haven’t a lot of time today to address this at length, but I’ll throw a few thoughts out.  Holder is right at least about reluctance to discuss race honestly but some of that reluctance is discretion rather than cowardice.  The reason for that is that if anyone suggests that the problems with the “black community” (leaving aside for the moment the question of whether such a monolithic thing exists) are anything but the fault of teh white devils, he/she is immediately attacked as racist and put on the defensive.  If the person suggesting it is not necessarily the fault of white devils is himself black, then he is attacked as a self-hating wannabe white (e.g. Shelby Steele). 

Buchanan is little more than a provocateur interested in selling books and making money as a commentator.  The more he is ignored, the better. 

The unspoken dirty secret is that in cities where lower income service jobs are available, in the restaurant and hotel businesses, hispanics are preferred employees and it is often difficult to get African American workers in.  It’s pure economics, not race.  Those white devils who run those businesses don’t have any less racial animosity toward hispanics, they just want/need efficiency—harder work for less money with less protest that any decision made which the employee thinks is adverse was made because of racism. 

Let’s see how long it takes for this “progressive” forum to call these comments and me racist.

Comment #27: MiddleageLiberal  on  02/20  at  01:29 PM

Give me a trailer court in a place where there are very few black people, if any, like the ones I grew up in, and I will show you a complete set of similar statistics for many of the inhabitants of said trailer court.

It isn’t about choices, it is about how poverty, racism, and deprivation LIMIT and SHAPE those choices.

Comment #28: Ms Kate  on  02/20  at  01:34 PM

P.S.  At the middle management levels in corporate America where layoffs have been happening for months and continue, just about every adverse action taken against an African American is met with a racial discrimination claim.  It is simply a fact of life for corporations and their managers who are handling reductions in force.

Comment #29: MiddleageLiberal  on  02/20  at  01:35 PM

sounds like Rush is here.

Comment #30: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  02/20  at  01:36 PM

7 minutes.  Not bad.

Comment #31: MiddleageLiberal  on  02/20  at  01:39 PM

Shorter MIddleage…I know I’m being racist, but I’m gonna deflect it.

Comment #32: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  02/20  at  01:41 PM

The southern strategy was developed specifically for people like the “liberal”

Comment #33: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  02/20  at  01:42 PM

We don’t have to call those comments racist, MAL content - they scream it from every sentence already!

Comment #34: Ms Kate  on  02/20  at  01:42 PM

I find it pretty sanctimonious to think that blacks need whites in their communities to prevent them from becoming ghettos. You argue the very stereotype “Chances are, you’d also be moving into a predominantly white neighborhood with neighbors who were convinced that you’d bring with you crime, disruption and a lowering of property values” with the second paragraph stating that “white flight” would automatically cause a community to become crime and poverty stricken.

They don’t need whites in their communities - please read more carefully.

They need whites not to create an immediate stampede that enforces the social perception that blacks ruin neighborhoods, thereby creating a political impetus to stop focusing on those neighborhoods.

Guess what?  If you were a black person living almost anywhere in America in the past fifty years, chances are you live in a predominantly black neighborhood.  And chances are, if you ask people about the nice or desirable communities, they’ll be overwhelmingly white because of the focus of tax dollars and political power. 

I’m describing a problem and a pattern based on discrimination and segregation, and you’re calling me sanctimonious for doing it?  Who am I being sanctimonious towards?

Comment #35: Jesse Taylor  on  02/20  at  01:48 PM

The white flight phenomenon in the suburbs was largely gone by the 1980’s and certainly by the ‘90s.  Jesse’s assertion that this occurred throughout the 20th century equates where things were in 1960 with where they were in 1990, which is patently absurd.

I do not argue that racism is behind us.  Mobility out of the underclass will be more difficult with a retracting economy.  That will likely affect a higher percentage of black that whites, reflective of the percentages in the underclass.  And it’s important for people of good will, both white and black, to be alert to possible racist treatments.  But those who have made it out into the middle and upper classes are generally welcomed in previously de facto segregated communities.

Comment #36: MiddleageLiberal  on  02/20  at  01:53 PM

We don’t have to call those comments racist, MAL content - they scream it from every sentence already!

c’mon Ms. Kate.  What’s a little right-wing white resentment trolling among “friends”?

Comment #37: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  02/20  at  01:53 PM

Did anyone catch the end where Buchanan really tried to poor on the crazy and was about to suggest that blacks were better off pre-civil rights? He started saying “In 1948 there was lower crime and—” and was cut off, I think intentionally before MSNBC would have to apologize for something.

Comment #38: Ben D.  on  02/20  at  01:55 PM

I can’t tell if the problem is that Buchanan has a huge blind spot about blacks and latinos but is otherwise sane?

His blind spots are blacks, latinos, and Jews (even when completely unrelated to Israel).

Comment #39: Ben D.  on  02/20  at  01:57 PM

Mobility out of the underclass will be more difficult with a retracting economy. 

I’ll work hard to make sure of that!

Comment #40: Ms Kate  on  02/20  at  02:06 PM

The rest of Buchanan’s rant circled around the need for “personal responsibility” in the black community, which is exactly the sort of cowardice Holder was referencing, and what I’d like to discuss.

Skipping comments above so maybe someone else already said it but I wish more people would point out that this view is just some balls-out straight-up racism. If you’re arguing that there are no structural causes for the massive disparity between the achievement of black and white people then you’re flat-out arguing that black people are just somehow inferior to white people.

It’s pure economics, not race.  Those white devils who run those businesses don’t have any less racial animosity toward hispanics, they just want/need efficiency—harder work for less money with less protest that any decision made which the employee thinks is adverse was made because of racism. 

So employers preferring one racial minority to another because the former is more exploitable iiiiiiiiisn’t racist? Holy fuck, you’re an idiot.

Comment #41: Dan  on  02/20  at  02:26 PM

If the outcome is racist, it doesn’t matter a whole lot if one can find a non-race-based reason for doing it.  Though I’m not sure what the non-race-based reason is for not picking up trash or fixing streets in predominantly black neighborhoods.

Comment #42: kaninchen  on  02/20  at  02:34 PM

kaninchen, when the white middle class disappears from any given neighborhood, so do their tax monies. So even the most enlightened political machine is left with nothing to work with. Pick up trash and fix streets? With what?

Comment #43: LCforevah  on  02/20  at  02:46 PM

The unspoken dirty secret is that in cities where lower income service jobs are available, in the restaurant and hotel businesses, hispanics are preferred employees and it is often difficult to get African American workers in.  It’s pure economics, not race.  Those white devils who run those businesses don’t have any less racial animosity toward hispanics, they just want/need efficiency—harder work for less money with less protest that any decision made which the employee thinks is adverse was made because of racism.

Or, really, what happens is that employers want people who don’t have roots in the area, don’t speak the language well, don’t know their rights, and are otherwise much easier to take advantage of.  You’re right that this particular issue is not about “race” per se, but about the desire of corrupt local business owners to find employees they can push around more easily.  In certain cases (especially when the business owner is an immigrant as well), one can basically sponsor people into the US for virtual slave labor.

None of this has much at all to do with why racism still happens, why black people still overwhelmingly tend to be poorer than their white peers, why ghettoization happens, etc.  Aside from the fact that corrupt business owners have created a situation which puts everyone exactly where they want them, the better to create horizontal hostility.

Comment #44: The Opoponax  on  02/20  at  02:52 PM

LCforevah:  This may be true in many places.  My comment was based largely on Dallas (the city of, not the metropolitan area).  Cadillac Heights and Preston Hollow are both neighborhoods within the city.  Preston Hollow is where GWB and family have bought a house and blocked off a street.  The roads there are very nice.  The utilities all work.  Trash collection is excellent.  Cadillac Heights is south of the Trinity, and was only recently declared uninhabitable as a toxic brownfield.  Most of Dallas south of the river is in bad shape.  And yet, both Cadillac Heights and Preston Hollow are parts of the same city, the same school district, the same tax base.  Whatever could be the difference between those two neighborhoods.

Go on, guess.

Comment #45: kaninchen  on  02/20  at  02:55 PM

At the middle management levels in corporate America where layoffs have been happening for months and continue, just about every adverse action taken against an African American is met with a racial discrimination claim.

Please cite.

Because it seems to me that very few attorneys would take a case where the situation is what you describe here.  It probably takes all of half an hour to determine whether a company’s recent round of lay-offs is potentially racially motivated or not.

Comment #46: The Opoponax  on  02/20  at  02:56 PM

From Holder’s speech:

If we are to make progress in this area we must feel comfortable enough with one another, and tolerant enough of each other, to have frank conversations about the racial matters that continue to divide us.

. . . .

As a nation we have done a pretty good job in melding the races in the workplace. We work with one another, lunch together and, when the event is at the workplace during work hours or shortly thereafter, we socialize with one another fairly well, irrespective of race. And yet even this interaction operates within certain limitations. We know, by “American instinct” and by learned behavior, that certain subjects are off limits and that to explore them risks, at best embarrassment, and, at worst, the questioning of one’s character. (emphasis added)

I’m not at all resentful of the phenomena I described.  I’m saddened by them.  But I do not deny they exist.  I am not naive enough to expect that pointing out such phenomena would not result in character attacks in a political forum such as this.  On the contrary, I expect it. 

If the outcome is racist, it doesn’t matter a whole lot if one can find a non-race-based reason for doing it.

I disagree.  If the reason for the disparate results is not intent, then the resolution of the problem requires a different approach.  I do agree that if disparate results exist which are not a result of racist intent, that fact is not a reason to abandon attempts at correcting the disparity.

Comment #47: MiddleageLiberal  on  02/20  at  02:57 PM

“Or, really, what happens is that employers want people who don’t have roots in the area, don’t speak the language well, don’t know their rights, and are otherwise much easier to take advantage of.”

...not to mention that if they’re undocumented they have the constant threat of being turned in to La Migra hanging over them, which makes them extra-exploitable. 

It’s a <strike>Win Win</strike>!...okay, it’s just another Win for The Man…

Comment #48: MikeEss  on  02/20  at  02:58 PM

His blind spots are blacks, latinos, and Jews (even when completely unrelated to Israel).

Yes, Ben D. thank you, I knew I was forgetting something big.

Comment #49: atheist  on  02/20  at  03:01 PM

I am not naive enough to expect that pointing out such phenomena would not result in character attacks in a political forum such as this.  On the contrary, I expect it.

Indeed, you invite it with provocative language like “white devils” and tropes of racial resentment, but then try to deflect it onto those who would call you out.

Troll.

Comment #50: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  02/20  at  03:04 PM

<blockbuster> At the middle management levels in corporate America where layoffs have been happening for months and continue, just about every adverse action taken against an African American is met with a racial discrimination claim.

Please cite. </blockbuster>

Close relative in upper management responsible for overseeing layoffs of middle management in Fortune 500 company.  Sorry, TMI to say more.  By “claim”, I don’t mean litigation or EEOC complaints only; I include verbalized complaint of the person affected.

Comment #51: MiddleageLiberal  on  02/20  at  03:04 PM

Oops, blockbuster should have been blockquote.  It’s Friday.  I’d rather be watching movies.

Comment #52: MiddleageLiberal  on  02/20  at  03:05 PM

...not to mention that if they’re undocumented they have the constant threat of being turned in to La Migra hanging over them, which makes them extra-exploitable.

And even if they are legal residents, they can easily be intimidated by the idea that you, El Jefe, can do something about that (even if you can’t). 

It would really not surprise me at all to find out that there was an underclass of hotel maids and restaurant line cooks who really thought their boss could have their green card revoked for burning a steak or forgetting to change the sheets in room 514.

(Anyone in here seen the film Dirty Pretty Things?)

Oh, and BTW, I love that Middle Aged anti-Liberal apparently doesn’t know that it’s possible to be both Black and Hispanic at the same time!!!!

Comment #53: The Opoponax  on  02/20  at  03:09 PM

You can define “solution” any way you want. Who’s got a starting point?

Stop funding, running, and populating schools based on political boundaries.  Make school districts with boundaries that shift with certain demographics, and do all funding at a higher administrative level (e.g. school tax that is collected by the state on property and then distributed equitably).

What would this do?  This would make segregation based on wealth, class, and race far less possible.  It would mean adequate resources for all schools and students.

Comment #54: Ms Kate  on  02/20  at  03:11 PM

You can define “solution” any way you want.  Who’s got a starting point?

We could start with spending the same amount on roads and schools and police presence in South Dallas as we do in Preston Hollow.  Another really good starting place would be repealing the prohibitions against recreational drugs.  Affirmative action was a start, before certain people, feeling their privilege threatened, eviscerated it.

I disagree.  If the reason for the disparate results is not intent, then the resolution of the problem requires a different approach.  I do agree that if disparate results exist which are not a result of racist intent, that fact is not a reason to abandon attempts at correcting the disparity.

I said a non-race-based reason, not the reason.  It’s well documented that black applicants to schools and for jobs are judged to be less qualified than white applicants with exactly the same resumes, test scores, etc.  The people making the admission and hiring decisions might genuinely believe they are making their decisions based on qualification than on race, but they are not.  (This works for sexist discrimination also—when applicants for symphony orchestras performed their auditions behind screens, the number of women hired increased dramatically.)

You don’t think you’re racist either.  We disagree on that too.

Comment #55: kaninchen  on  02/20  at  03:14 PM

Close relative in upper management responsible for overseeing layoffs of middle management in Fortune 500 company.  Sorry, TMI to say more.  By “claim”, I don’t mean litigation or EEOC complaints only; I include verbalized complaint of the person affected.

Oh, I see.

You mean that your racist ass relative heard through the grapevine that the black middle management folks were insufficiently grateful for being temporarily allowed into the middle class. 

I’ve heard a lot of that sort of thing, growing up in the south.  It’s amazing what somebody’s “close relative” who is apparently in a position to know happens to find out about Teh Blax (or sometimes Teh Mezzkins, or even Trashy People).  Except it’s never anything real enough to be documented - it never shows up in the news, there’s never an official EEOC complaint, nobody remembers the exact specifics of the situation. 

It gradually grows from stupid racist hearsay to local legend, and next thing you know white kids aren’t allowed to go to the skating rink anymore because of all the “gang violence” that never really happened there.

Also, the fact that you can’t see the difference between someone wondering aloud if they got fired because of their race (or even griping loudly to that effect) and making a formal accusation kind of implies you are dangerously close to Stick Rule territory. 

Who doesn’t wonder if it was this or that or maybe the other thing when they find themselves rejected?  Last time I got dumped, I spent an entire evening convinced it was because I was too much of an uppity feminist, or maybe he was put off by my bisexuality.  Big friggen deal.

Comment #56: The Opoponax  on  02/20  at  03:21 PM

“Or, really, what happens is that employers want people who don’t have roots in the area, don’t speak the language well, don’t know their rights, and are otherwise much easier to take advantage of.”

...not to mention that if they’re undocumented they have the constant threat of being turned in to La Migra hanging over them, which makes them extra-exploitable.

It’s a Win Win!...okay, it’s just another Win for The Man…
MikeEss

Perhaps you haven’t noticed that heads of larger corporations have opposed the round-em-up-and-deport-em moves of the Republicans, because they know that significant portions of their workforce are “illegals”, even though most laws prevent them from looking past the required forms (I-9’s I think). 

The quoted passage sounds like it is from someone who has never employed anyone.  Certainly there are corrupt employers who consciously exploit disadvantaged workers.  There are more employers who are indifferent to such things but want the efficiency for honest profit motives.

I’m sensing a dance around the old debate about who exploits whom when a market level wage is paid for entry level labor.

Comment #57: MiddleageLiberal  on  02/20  at  03:22 PM

White flight still is very much of a reality in that whites will begin to leave once the number of blacks reaches around 15% of the population, when they regard the neighborhood as being “too black.”

The class issue is secondary if only because social norms and preferences adopted by or common to blacks will become regarded as low-class by dint of their adoption or popularity of blacks, in and of themselves. This is a huge problem in our society—while any individual African American could gain the benefits of white, middle-class America by moving to their neighborhoods and adopting their social mores, if blacks did this in large numbers, the goalposts would move, and those very neighborhoods and social mores would suddenly be regarded by whites as undesirable.

Comment #58: Tyro  on  02/20  at  03:28 PM

Then kachinen, I certainly wouldn’t consider your local political machine anywhere near enlightened, feh. Could zoning have something to do with it? It’s been used before to deprive ethnic neighborhoods of sharing the tax base.

Comment #59: LCforevah  on  02/20  at  03:38 PM

“I’m sensing a dance around the old debate about who exploits whom when a market level wage is paid for entry level labor.”

...I think the roots of the current decline in the American Economy make it pretty clear that the only people who would consider this an open question are the kind of people for whom the Minimum Wage is a quaint concept they’ve heard about somewhere.

If your employees don’t really make enough to survive, and have to borrow to make it, you can make a killing in the short term, but it will bite you in the ass eventually.

“The quoted passage sounds like it is from someone who has never employed anyone.”

...or somebody who lives here, uses their eyes for more than watching American Idol, and doesn’t drink wingnut Koolaid by the gallon.

Opoponax’s observation jibes with my own experience…

Comment #60: MikeEss  on  02/20  at  03:40 PM

Unless I missed it, which I could have, I’m surprised nobody mentioned covenants, agreements among homeowners in a neighborhood not to sell their homes to African-Americans/Jews/Catholics/et cetera.

Comment #61: agolden  on  02/20  at  03:48 PM

Stop funding, running, and populating schools based on political boundaries.  Make school districts with boundaries that shift with certain demographics, and do all funding at a higher administrative level (e.g. school tax that is collected by the state on property and then distributed equitably).

What would this do?  This would make segregation based on wealth, class, and race far less possible.  It would mean adequate resources for all schools and students.

Ms. Kate,

Doing funding at the state level is a slight improvement…but won’t do much for states where the socio-economic elite and the upper/middle classes have so little stake in the state’s public education system that they’ll still neglect them at best….and gut them at worst. 

From what I’ve heard from classmates and relatives from the states of Mississippi and Hawaii*, the vast majority of their state’s upper/middle classes send their kids to private schools and neglect/gut their state’s public school system because doing so effectively reinforces their race and class segregation, keeping the property taxes down, and creates a large mostly non-White underclass. 

Considering this, funding may have to be directed from the higher levels….maybe regional groupings of states (i.e. West, Central, East) or even at the Federal-level to further minimize these effects. 

In conjunction….the US needs a major attitude adjustment regarding education/intellectual pursuits so at the very least….students who excel in school are, at least, not subject to social ostracism at best…..physical beatings at worst as undergrad classmates have recounted from their experiences at more mainstream public and private/boarding schools. 

* This is one big reason why I know those who criticized President Obama for attending Punahou on scholarship have no real clue about the long history of neglect and disinterest in Hawaii’s public education system from the socio-political elite in that state is such that it has one of the highest rates of private school attendance in the nation at around 20%.

Comment #62: exholt  on  02/20  at  03:51 PM

The white flight phenomenon in the suburbs was largely gone by the 1980’s and certainly by the ‘90s.  Jesse’s assertion that this occurred throughout the 20th century equates where things were in 1960 with where they were in 1990, which is patently absurd.

Um, not where I lived.  Tipping still exists all over the country.

Or do you have a magic realtor uncle, too?

Comment #63: Jesse Taylor  on  02/20  at  04:02 PM

Unless I missed it, which I could have, I’m surprised nobody mentioned covenants, agreements among homeowners in a neighborhood not to sell their homes to African-Americans/Jews/Catholics/et cetera.

Good point.  Speaking of which….there is one nearby gated community in my area where they had a covenant prohibiting the sale of homes there to those who were Black, Jewish, and/or working class up until 1975. 

Though they have eliminated the former two…the high pricing even after the real estate bust has effectively kept out most of the working-class.

Comment #64: exholt  on  02/20  at  04:03 PM

LCforevah, Dallas city and county government is a long, long way from enlightened, and zoning and code regulations are definitely abused to the detriment of our poorer, browner citizens.  I was just saying that the effects of White Flight are still felt even when those fleeing don’t actually leave the city.  Sure, they’ve got their <strike>paper fans</strike> non-race-based reasons for these discrepancies.  It must be coincidence that the brown neighborhoods have crap road maintenance and apartments with unenforced code violations.

For bonus racist fun, the public schools in Preston Hollow recently lost lawsuits related to their policies of sorting brown kids into separate classes from white kids.  It tales talent and dedication do Separate But Equal in the same building

Comment #65: kaninchen  on  02/20  at  04:12 PM

Unless I missed it, which I could have, I’m surprised nobody mentioned covenants, agreements among homeowners in a neighborhood not to sell their homes to African-Americans/Jews/Catholics/et cetera.

Unenforceable in any court since Shelley v. Kraemer, 334 U.S. 1, (1948)  This was one of Justice Thurgood Marshall’s cases when he was a lawyer.

Comment #66: MiddleageLiberal  on  02/20  at  04:13 PM

They need whites not to create an immediate stampede that enforces the social perception that blacks ruin neighborhoods, thereby creating a political impetus to stop focusing on those neighborhoods.

I think this is the elephant in the room.

When the white middle class moves/relocates/flees an area the political body ignores that area.  What you begin to see is what Republicans truely want, an ownership society.

The people in these areas are abandoned by government and the decay is what happens when there is “a government small enough to drown in a bath tub.”  Reduced services in infrastructure leads to people feeling frustrated and disconnected.

“Why should I trim that tree when the city ignores the cracked, broken sidewalk?”  “Why should I pick up that garbage when the city never empties the public trashcans at the bus stop?”

Comment #67: cynickal  on  02/20  at  04:13 PM

.there is one nearby gated community in my area where they had a covenant prohibiting the sale of homes there to those who were Black, Jewish, and/or working class up until 1975.

The covenants may be unenforceable at law, but they’re still enforceable in practice if neighbors want to. Two different anecdotes from ‘90s new york city: 1) a friend whose parents inherited a house in a whites-only neighborhood; they invited some black friends to dinner there, and a couple weeks later got a polite talk from their neighbors explaining that this kind of thing was Not Done. 2) a friend who moved out of a modest one-bedroom somewhere in queens, found a buyer, only to have the building’s board reject them; the real estate agent’s boss apologized profusely “Oh, that building doesn’t allow indians—your buyer never should have been shown that apartment in the first place.”

AAmong other reasons why this kind of stuff matters: if I have a one-hour total daily commute to my job, and you, because of your color, have a two-hour commute to the same job, you’re effectively being paid 10% less to do the same work.

Comment #68: paul  on  02/20  at  04:39 PM

Speaking of which….there is one nearby gated community in my area where they had a covenant prohibiting the sale of homes there to those who were Black, Jewish, and/or working class up until 1975.

Your link is to a wiki article on Forest Hills, and the article says it is NOT a gated community.  IT does say this:  “Homes in Forest Hills Gardens were sold with restrictive covenants, until the mid-1970s, which forbade the sale of homes to Jews, blacks and working-class people.[1]”  But when you go to the footnote:

(Footnote 1) “….Forest Hills Gardens was chartered to exclude Jews, blacks and working-class people or why Americans prefer ersatz historical towns like Disney’s Celebration, Fla. to the realities of city life.” (emphasis added)

The original charter (1908?) of Forest Hills likely had racially restrictive covenants and such covenants no doubt remained reported in the chain of title and maybe even repeated in deeds.  But since Shelley in 1948 the courts could not prevent anyone from selling to the restricted groups.  Social stigma, of course, could still discourage it.

Racially restrictive covenants are a shameful part of our history, but are long gone as legally enforceable restrictions.  There is no useful or honest reason to pretend otherwise.

Um, not where I lived.  Tipping still exists all over the country.

Or do you have a magic realtor uncle, too?
Jesse Taylor

Our experiences and observations differ.  Mine are living in 5 different integrated neighborhoods in Eastern Seaboard suburbs for the past 35 years. 

Clever insult on the magic uncle.  How tolerant of you and encouraging of discourse, but it proves my point and Holder’s about what happens in open, non-anonymous discussion of racial issues.  My earlier reference to close relative by the way, was spouse.  She’s not resentful either.  But neither is she ignorant or deaf to reality.

Comment #69: MiddleageLiberal  on  02/20  at  04:51 PM

Welfare was once about providing support for women to raise their children.

Welfare was about providing a bare standard-of-living minimum for families.  If it were about providing support for women to raise their children, it would have offered more than starvation levels of support.

Comment #70: keshmeshi  on  02/20  at  04:51 PM

Racially restrictive covenants are a shameful part of our history, but are long gone as legally enforceable restrictions.  There is no useful or honest reason to pretend otherwise.

Their effects are still with us, legally enforceable or not.  There is no useful or honest reason to pretend otherwise.

Comment #71: kaninchen  on  02/20  at  04:56 PM

Kan, it is not the covenants that have any effect.  It is the racial prejudice in the hearts and minds of people and discriminatory behavior it inspires.  What Holder was saying was that continued social association between races and tolerance of discussion of racial issues is important to bridge the divides and, I would argue, lessens the prejudice.

Comment #72: MiddleageLiberal  on  02/20  at  05:10 PM

Did I say that there shouldn’t be continued social association among people or discussion about racial issues?  I thought I was saying that your claim that being able to come up with ostensibly non-racist justification for things that disproportionately negatively effect brown people makes it somehow magically not racist is morally and intellectually dishonest.  That even though we no longer have racism coded into law, we still have de facto racism to deal with, and the kinds of things you are saying make it harder to deal with.

If you really want to end racism, own up to your own internalized racism and strive to eliminate it.  Understand that it’s a process, and that we all have to do it, no matter what color we are.  If you feel the need to preface or footnote your statements with “I know you’re going to call me a racist for this but” they may in fact be racist.  And then don’t say it.  Try to think of someone who lacks your privilege might see it.

I can’t believe I have fucking Asperger’s and I’m lecturing on empathy.

Comment #73: kaninchen  on  02/20  at  05:34 PM

The quoted passage sounds like it is from someone who has never employed anyone.  Certainly there are corrupt employers who consciously exploit disadvantaged workers.  There are more employers who are indifferent to such things but want the efficiency for honest profit motives.

Actually, my experience in this regard comes from the time I spent as a nanny in college.  I had a hard time finding long-term work because most of the families were looking to hire a recent immigrant who would live in (and thus be on call 24/7 for a what amounted to less than minimum wage).  Preferably without a green card, so they could hold deportation to hold over her head.

Comment #74: The Opoponax  on  02/20  at  06:32 PM

Kan, all I was saying about your comment on covenants is that the covenants themselves do not have any lingering effect.  To the extent that there is still legal, social resistance to integration of neighborhoods the old history of covenants is immaterial.

My point on racial intent being important to assess as well as disparate results on a public policy is that the solution should be different.  As an example in my area there is a public magnet high school, where the first cut for admission is determined by a test and the second and final cut by grades and teacher recommendations.  Just a few years ago Latinos and AA students were horribly underrepresented compared to the percentages in the feeding population, while other students of color, Arabic and other Asians were not.  If the disparate result is because of frank racism of people involved in the admission process then an appropriate remedy might be a forced percentage change, to the extent that can still be done, or personnel changes to the extent that the racists can be ferreted out.  Instead, the percentages were raised by a concerted effort to go into the feeder schools with higher populations of latino and AA students to give them practice tests, other instructional materials and encouragement to try for admission.  A punitive approach might have satisfied some folk but would not have solved the problem, since just by changing the numbers by force would likely have resulted in kids getting in who didn’t have enough preparation to succeed in the faster pace.  Part of the problem the school has in identifying and attracting qualified AA kids is that some don’t want to go to what is seen as a “white” or half-Asian school. 

You assume I do not try to be aware of my own internalized prejudices.  It would take more than a few posts to convince you or anyone else otherwise.  There are certain unfortunate pathologies of thought and attitude prevalent among the underprivileged segments of the “black community” which cannot be raised without being seen or called a racist.  The employment issue in cities that I mentioned is one of them.  The topic cannot even be raised for agreement, disagreement or discussion.  I would wager that you could ask general managers of large hotels in Miami and Los Angeles if that issue exists and they would say yes, but only upon adequate assurances that their comments would never be publicly attributed to them.  The question of speaking correct English being perceived as “talking white” is another such issue and was addressed by Obama early in the primaries.  Hillary Clinton could not have raised such a thing.

Holder recognizes subjects like this cannot be easily discussed.  I read his speech as decrying both the fear of raising them and the intolerance of people hearing them being raised.  I applaud him for it.  I also wonder what he would say to voluntary segregation in dining rooms on college campuses.

Comment #75: MiddleageLiberal  on  02/20  at  06:46 PM

a friend who moved out of a modest one-bedroom somewhere in queens, found a buyer, only to have the building’s board reject them; the real estate agent’s boss apologized profusely “Oh, that building doesn’t allow indians—your buyer never should have been shown that apartment in the first place.”

Doesn’t surprise me considering how many Queens and other New York area craigslist listings I’ve seen with “No [insert name of marginalized group] need apply” over the past 3-5 years….or families seeking apartments/rentals emphasizing how they are “Hard working Whites”. 

Out of curiosity, which part of Queens was this at?

Comment #76: exholt  on  02/20  at  06:49 PM

Well, you go from talking about your own internalized prejudices to brown people are racist too! with only a comment about it’s awful hard to write about.  Before that you write about something that you don’t see as being the result of racism, though I would.  It has to do with what Mr. Taylor said in the last sentence of his original post about the still-unlevel field we all play on.

I’m not sure you and I can have the conversation you say you want about race.  You don’t seem willing to recognize racism unless it is written into law or regulation.  Perhaps you think that nothing more can or should be done to remediate the effects of racism that exist today.  You won’t even do me the courtesy of typing my name (it is a diminutive already and does not require further diminuition).  I’m gonna stop; do as you please.

Comment #77: kaninchen  on  02/20  at  07:03 PM

most of the families were looking to hire a recent immigrant who would live in (and thus be on call 24/7 for a what amounted to less than minimum wage).  Preferably without a green card, so they could hold deportation to hold over her head.

Most? Really?  You don’t think there was some perception that as a college student you might be less reliable than another choice? Maybe my acquaintances who hired nannies were just a classier bunch.  I’ve heard of such stories of captive nannies but never knew of any directly.  The parents I knew were more leery of recent immigrants because of language barriers. The only immigrant nanny we had was a Caribbean woman of color already in the process of getting her green card.  We never abused her time and she stayed with us four years. She left to take a job with a bank.

Comment #78: MiddleageLiberal  on  02/20  at  07:04 PM

Sounds like Jackson Heights to me, Exholt - if you look around that particular neighborhood, you’ll notice it’s very weirdly segregated.  You can tell, almost to the block, which part of the neighborhood is the turf of which of the various ethnicities that predominate there.

Of course, I noticed the same thing when I lived in Inwood.  It’s a neighborhood with a large Dominican population, and yet somehow every tenant in our building somehow happened to be white.  When someone would move out, they would be replaced by another white tenant. 

Usually the apartment listing veils its racism - I’ve seen “looking for a hard-working professional” (AKA white or maybe a middle class well-assimilated Asian person), “meant for two inhabitants only,” (AKA no Hispanics need apply), and the like.  More often, since apartments are in such demand all over the city, they just choose someone of the right ethnicity for the building.

Comment #79: The Opoponax  on  02/20  at  07:06 PM

kaninchen, you confuse laziness with disrespect.  Until you told me you cared that your name is spelled out fully when you are addressed I had no reason to know.  Abbreviations for handles are often used to respond to folk on this board, without disrespect intended.

Comment #80: MiddleageLiberal  on  02/20  at  07:13 PM

You don’t think there was some perception that as a college student you might be less reliable than another choice?

I worked through an agency which carefully vetted me (including pretty exhaustive background checks and references), so no, I’m pretty sure it wasn’t because I was perceived as “unreliable”.  Though you’re right that a college student is unlikely to want to be a nanny for more than 4-5 years, and some families were looking for someone who would stay with their family indefinitely.  Something else you’re unlikely to get by considering candidates who have roots in the community, know their rights, have actual lives outside of work, and the like - why would I want to live in a glorified walk-in closet for the next 18 years, raising someone else’ children for what amounts to less than minimum wage?

I also often heard women talking to other mothers at playgroups about it, as well.  I’m not so much talking about why I personally was turned down for specific jobs by specific families, but the sense I got of what people were looking for in a nanny.  The interesting thing about being household help is that people will say the most appalling things right in front of you, as if you’re part of the furniture.

Comment #81: The Opoponax  on  02/20  at  07:14 PM

@ Middleaged Liberal, concerning your remark about employers of the low-end services tending to employ more latinos than blacks: maybe this is because there is an influx of latinos who, as someone else already mentioned, do not speak the language, are DESPERATE for jobs, and often do not know their rights as workers?

many of them ARE desperate for work. they will work for longer, for less pay, fewer benefits, and in worse conditions than black workers. and employers KNOW this. employers KNOW they can treat them like crap, and then simply toss them away—because there are more of “them” out there. the very fact that they apparently see their (as you said, typically latino) workers as pieces of trash, or interchangeable pieces of equipment, smacks of racism to me.

oh, also, to MiddleAgedLiberal’s comment about management and black middle-level managers complaining about racism whenever their jobs are about to be cut: maybe they’re complaining because these companies ONLY seem to be cutting them, or cutting them first. just a thought.

Comment #82: needlefinger  on  02/20  at  07:20 PM

Oh.My.Dog.


IN THE SAME BUILDING?

Comment #83: LCforevah  on  02/20  at  07:24 PM

LCforevah—Oh yeah.  It was impressive, even by local standards.  Preston Hollow and Bush the Younger totally deserve each other.

Comment #84: kaninchen  on  02/20  at  07:30 PM

Sounds like Jackson Heights to me, Exholt - if you look around that particular neighborhood, you’ll notice it’s very weirdly segregated.  You can tell, almost to the block, which part of the neighborhood is the turf of which of the various ethnicities that predominate there.

Opoponax,

This also could apply to large parts of Kew Gardens, Forest Hills, Rego Park, and other areas of Queens IME. 

Incidentally, I lived in Jackson Heights for one year back in high school….though the noise of the 7 train, condition of the apartment, and my heading off to college meant we all moved elsewhere.

Comment #85: exholt  on  02/20  at  07:33 PM

Oh, and just by the way, no, it’s not about class; it’s about race.

Exactly. Racial inequality is not an epiphenomenon of class.
MAJeff, the God of Biscuits on 02/20 at 07:22 AM

That’s precisely what I think it is. Perhaps I am missing some nuance of “epiphenomenon,” but I don’t believe for a moment that if we had no class struggle (however that might be) we would still have racism.

“Class,” as an abstract and general thing, is something that probably has to exist in some form or other in just about any human society—though it didn’t in the kinds of societies that we evolved into fully modern human form with, and still does not in the surviving gatherer-hunter societies we (or our recent ancestors—a lot of these groups have either gone extinct or been transformed in the interim) could observe. But given any division of labor more complex than the generic cooperation of equals found in such societies, “classes” would probably have to exist. Even in Ursula LeGuin’s anarcho-syndicalist Odonian society in The Dispossessed something pretty much like classes formed on Anarres. (This is one reason she subtitled the book “An Ambiguous Utopia”).

But we don’t have to do with generic class societies; we deal with the particular kind of class society known as capitalism, and in the intersection of the needs of capitalist ruling classes and historical geography we find the origin and development of modern American racism. I really don’t see what other explanation is necessary.

Perhaps it seems to you that if I describe racism as being derived from capitalist class relations, if I call it “superstructural,” I am saying that it is some side issue we don’t really need to pay attention to; all we have to do is solve the “real” problem of class relations and racism will vanish away. Now I actually do think that would happen if we could simply solve the class struggle fairly and peaceably, but you misunderstand what “superstructure” means if you think I’d ignore racism as a phenomenon in its own right. Because I don’t think we can achieve social progress in any degree while ignoring racism!

Just because something in society is superstructure doesn’t mean it it doesn’t exist, nor that it lacks its own importance. On the contrary, superstructure exists precisely because it is important to the basic class structure that it does exist, and have the form it has.

Our complex financial system, for instance, is superstructure. Every productive industry in modern capitalism could in principle go forward on the same premises of profit as the goal of private property in the means of production, with all transactions limited to the physical exchange of goods and services for lumps of unmilled precious metal.  But it would be clumsy and inefficient compared to the dizzying sophistications of modern finance, which is why these and a whole body of law to regulate them exist. Superstructure is vital mechanisms that serve the base structure of class relations.

The military is superstructural; so are police and courts. I hardly think we should ignore any of these for that reason!

Racism is a social mechanism that arose in this country (and elsewhere too, in parallel or as part of a larger system our ancestors were part of too) in response to specific demands of the profit-seeking ruling class of those days; it was “refined” over centuries through many transitions into its current form, always to maintain class hegemony. None of this means it doesn’t have its own history, its own logic, nor that a society like ours is completely inconceivable without it—but it would be less “convenient;” something would have to give somewhere.

I really don’t see what good thing you are trying to accomplish by arguing that racism is not something that emerges from class society.

How am I wrong?

Comment #86: Mark Foxwell  on  02/20  at  08:05 PM

Opoponax,
Total threadjack but looking back I suspect that parents just getting into using nannies don’t even realize that 4 years from one nanny is about as much as one can expect anyway.  As a parent when the kids are little, you want some stability, so you hope for more than a year at a time.  We got lucky with 3 years on the first and 4 on the second.  Once all the kids were in school, we went the with State Dept. sanctioned “au pair girl” system which brought young (18-22) people, mostly women, in from abroad for one year stints at a time with a limit of 45 hours per week.  It worked well for us and gave the kids some exposure to mildly different cultures. 

Some of the abusive treatment of nannies was documented in the humorous treatment of the Nanny Diaries, book and film.

Comment #87: MiddleageLiberal  on  02/20  at  08:05 PM

Look, M A anti-liberal, I’m by no means calling out everyone who hires a nanny.  I’m just relating my experiences in that world.  You don’t really have to justify how you are different from all those evil corrupt people.  I don’t really need to hear how you were totally nice to your nanny and had reasonable expectations.

Comment #88: The Opoponax  on  02/20  at  08:18 PM

“You don’t really have to justify how you are different from all those evil corrupt people.”

Apparently, if it doesn’t happen to MaL or one of his friends then it’s not happening…

Comment #89: MikeEss  on  02/20  at  08:26 PM

I really don’t see what good thing you are trying to accomplish by arguing that racism is not something that emerges from class society.

How am I wrong?
Mark Foxwell

From my limited reading, racism pre-existed capitalist class society.  It certainly pre-existed industrial and post-industrial modern capitalism.  I contend that racism is not at all necessary to our system and in fact makes it less convenient.  If I read you correctly, you suggest that racism makes our capitalism more convenient.  If so, I heartily disagree.  My own flirtation with Marxism and its progeny ended finally with the failure and collapse of the Eastern European forms.  I prefer regulated capitalism as a system for promoting long term advances in human welfare and comfort.  The most efficient form of capitalism would be racist free, a system of advancement through meritocracy.  I see that as a worthy goal, though perhaps like the mathematical concept of limits, not completely attainable.

Comment #90: MiddleageLiberal  on  02/20  at  08:30 PM

Apparently, if it doesn’t happen to MaL or one of his friends then it’s not happening…
MikeEss

No, just proof that the proposition is not universally or even usually true, since I don’t live in the stratospheres of American wealth.

Comment #91: MiddleageLiberal  on  02/20  at  08:38 PM

Mark Foxwell is this what you’re talking about? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3Xe1kX7Wsc

Comment #92: asdf  on  02/20  at  08:55 PM

“No, just proof that the proposition is not universally or even usually true, since I don’t live in the stratospheres of American wealth.”

...um, okay if you say so. 

I would guess that it only describes your experiences…just like I can only describe mine. 

I do, however, try not to assume I am aware of everything and that somehow my experiences always represent the norm…

Comment #93: MikeEss  on  02/20  at  09:21 PM

I’m going to file away the stuff about Queens for the next time I read a series of comments from people smugly tut-tutting about how much better the rest of the country is than the South….

Comment #94: annejumps  on  02/20  at  10:37 PM

If you are able to hire nannies at all, including au pairs, then yes, you are outside of the experience of most Americans, though not necessarily in “the stratospheres.”  Certainly nobody in my family, nor of my personal acquaintance, even the fairly well-off ones, ever had live-in babysitters or much “help” of any kind.  A few hired twice-monthly maids or a lawn service.

I really don’t get this argument:
“It isn’t a racist society, it’s an unfair capitalist class structure!”
“No, it isn’t capitalism, it’s a deeply ingrained racism!”

Kids, kids… don’t you think it’s possible it could be both?

If we solve the class issue, you think the Klan will disappear into the weeds or that realtors will no longer steer poc away from certain buildings or neighborhoods or that school system in Dallas will suddenly decide to integrate?  Really?  You’ve never actually talked to racists, have you?

If we solve the race issue, no employers will discriminate in hiring?  Our legal system will no longer privelege the wealthy, we’ll no longer have homeless people in the same country as hundred-billionaires, or tens of millions without access to health care?

I’m not saying the problems are unrelated; clearly both serve to perpetuate each other.  Racists openly exploit class divisions, and capitalists obviously exploit racial divide. 

I’m saying that neither problem is a direct and necessary effect of the other.  You can’t just get solve one problem and expect the other to go away.  That’s magical thinking, I think.

Comment #95: Chocolate Covered Cotton  on  02/20  at  10:49 PM

Kan, all I was saying about your comment on covenants is that the covenants themselves do not have any lingering effect.  To the extent that there is still legal, social resistance to integration of neighborhoods the old history of covenants is immaterial.

This is why nobody’s taking your arguments seriously.  No lingering effect?  Really?  So you look around and see lily-white suburbs surrounding mostly darker inner cities and think that’s what?  Just voluntary association?  Strictly the result of social resistance to integration? 

If you’re saying that those covenants were a symptom of the problem and not the source of the problem, I guess we agree.  But you’re saying “no lingering effect” and that “the old history of covenants is immaterial” and that’s just wrong. 

The lingering effect is that there were ever segregated neighborhoods in the first place- and the assumption that the priveleged class has the right to perpetuate that despite court decisions saying otherwise.  That the condition today perpetuates due to that continued social resistance to change does not address the question of why the condition ever existed at all.  That history is material to that question.

We still have de facto segregation of schools, 55 years after the Brown decision.  Court decisions do not bring about social change by themselves.  The degree to which laws actually represent social mores is limited.

Comment #96: Chocolate Covered Cotton  on  02/20  at  11:00 PM

If you’re saying that those covenants were a symptom of the problem and not the source of the problem, I guess we agree.

That’s it, on that issue anyway.

Comment #97: MiddleageLiberal  on  02/20  at  11:40 PM

Just to elaborate on my last, racial discrimination in housing sales undoubtedly is still a problem.  But the old racial restrictive covenants occasionally are raised as evidence of 21st Century racism and factually it just isn’t, because their legal effect died 50 years before the beginning of the century.  Talk about tipping points of white flight if they still exist and tell us when the last study was done showing 15% as the tipping point, so we can evaluate whether it’s an old number and still valid.  But don’t try to say restrictive covenants are current evidence of discrimination.

Comment #98: MiddleageLiberal  on  02/21  at  01:12 AM

There are certain unfortunate pathologies of thought and attitude prevalent among the underprivileged segments of the “black community” which cannot be raised without being seen or called a racist.  The employment issue in cities that I mentioned is one of them.  The topic cannot even be raised for agreement, disagreement or discussion.  I would wager that you could ask general managers of large hotels in Miami and Los Angeles if that issue exists and they would say yes, but only upon adequate assurances that their comments would never be publicly attributed to them.  The question of speaking correct English being perceived as “talking white” is another such issue and was addressed by Obama early in the primaries.  Hillary Clinton could not have raised such a thing.

The problem being with this entire paragraph is that every single thing you name, whether or not it actually occurs, has to do with decades of discrimination and prejudice externally inflicted on the black community, and said community’s reaction to it.

Again, this is the discussion we need to have - the reason you get so many terrible reactions to the above is because it’s like making fun of someone for talking funny after they just got mugged and beaten.  Repeatedly.

Comment #99: Jesse Taylor  on  02/21  at  06:21 AM

“Again, this is the discussion we need to have - the reason you get so many terrible reactions to the above is because it’s like making fun of someone for talking funny after they just got mugged and beaten.  Repeatedly.”

The thing that seems most difficult for Americans like MaL to accept is the huge importance of where you start in determining where you will finish.

They either can’t see, or can’t accept, that the only reason a worthless individual like George Bush Jr. got into office was because his father was POTUS and his grandfather was a senator, and all of them were and are rich. 

In contrast, Barack Obama’s background would normally have relegated him to obscurity.  But because of hard work and (let’s be honest) luck, he was able to transcend his fate and become president.  And while this is inspiring, and fits well into the narrative we all want to believe about America, Land of Opportunity!, the fact is this type of thing just doesn’t happen very often.

The racists, the few who are up front with it, but mainly the multitudes who refuse to acknowledge this cancer on their souls, would prefer to think (when they are not actively discounting Obama’s worthiness) that Barack Obama is an example that proves the rest of Black America consists of lazy, shiftless ingrates, who have taken the gifts of success Americans inherit as their birthright and and cast them away, preferring to wallow in an urban cesspit of rap music, unwed motherhood, drugs, alcohol, and crime.  They are blind to the fact that being raised on the bottom rungs of society condemns most to being locked in that state for the rest of their lives.  They don’t choose that life, it chooses them.

Current day America has one of the most rigidly class-bound societies on Earth, as least among developed countries.  If you’re born on the top, there is little you can do to get cast out of heaven.  But if you’re born on the bottom, there is little you can do to pull yourself out of hell.

Until we can see ourselves for what we really are, and accept the deep flaws America has, and dedicate ourselves to becoming the nation we have always believed we already are, these problems won’t get better…

Comment #100: MikeEss  on  02/21  at  12:15 PM

The employment issue in cities that I mentioned is one of them.

Of course it can.  However, it will be called out as racist when you imply that the heart of the problem is that Blacks are lazy, or that employers who hire Latinos are therefore “not the problem”.  Because that’s racist. 

We can talk about problems caused by racism, or inequalities between the Black and White communities, without airing racist dirty laundry.  Perhaps you can’t, but then that’s your problem, not ours.

Comment #101: The Opoponax  on  02/21  at  01:09 PM

Well said, Jesse.

I’ve been studying these issues in grad school for a couple of years now, and thought that I’d throw out a couple of ideas and a couple of books those of you with an abiding interest in this might enjoy.

First, I think it’s worth pointing out that at the end of the day, it doesn’t matter WHY white people left/leave cities or neighborhoods with a “high” black population (although I would not for one moment dispute the racism of most of those people, particularly those in the postwar years through the 70s), because at the end of the day, the result is the same: ingrained disparity that goes beyond poverty. As I said, I think racism is a big part of this, and I don’t think many of the people who left for racist reasons were honest with themselves about that, and might be convinced that no, really, it’s just that the schools in that neighborhood are better and I have to do what’s best for my kids. Or no, really, it’s just that I like that private country club better than the public pool and I think my kids will be safer there. Whatever. It doesn’t really matter what they say, or why they do what they do, because this situation has been created now, and as Jesse said so well, we ALL have to take responsibility, right now. My particular favorite book on this topic is Matt Lassiter’s “The Silent Majority.” Kevin Kruse’s “White Flight” is also excellent.

The other point I’d like to make is that relief of poverty is not going to be enough - improving school buildings, giving people money through tax refunds, etc., isn’t enough. I think we need to do those things anyway - we have some awful schools in this country - but those kinds of things aren’t changing the system, which is broken. The system the world is operating under now does not allow for a permanent relief for the poor, because people will still have racist/homo-bigoted/sexist ideas, and people who aren’t straight white men with money still aren’t going to change their minds and their attitudes. The system has to not allow for that kind of bigotry to thrive, which it does, even if people don’t call it racism anymore. While the book doesn’t specifically make these arguments, and excellent book anyone interested in social justice should read is Robert O. Self’s “American Babylon.”

Oh, and also, I saw this a couple of times in the comments and thought I’d address it: historians have concluded that slavery predates racism. That means that Europeans enslaved Africans, and first justified it through religion, because it was okay to enslave non-Christians. Then, religious people, mostly Catholics, started converting Africans, who saw this as a way to escape slavery, which it often was. So the Europeans changed it up, and said it’s okay to enslave someone who isn’t the same race as you, and hence, racism was invented to justify the massive profits people were making off the slave trade and slave labor, that they didn’t want to give up. It solidified an already patriarchal system that has yet to really be shattered, because even though we don’t have slaves anymore (in the US, anyway), we still have a culture that clearly privileges a certain demographic at the expense of others. Finally, the best book I can think of on this topic is Kathleen Brown’s “Good Wives, Nasty Wenches, and Anxious Patriarchs.”

One more, just for the heck of it, is Jason Sokol’s book “There Goes My Everything,” about the point of view of segregationist white people during desegregation, and which is so beautifully done it makes me jealous. All of the books I’ve mentioned are well-respected in the field of American history. I hope anyone who does check them out enjoys them as much as I did.

Thanks for an awesome post, as always, Jesse.

Comment #102: F. McGee  on  02/21  at  04:08 PM

The only immigrant nanny we had was a Caribbean woman of color already in the process of getting her green card.  We never abused her time and she stayed with us four years.

Gee, how white of you.

Comment #103: kac90b  on  02/21  at  04:12 PM

Heh. “Congratulate me for doing the minimum possible to be considered a not-loathsome human being for not abusing my Caribbean nanny!”

Comment #104: F. McGee  on  02/21  at  04:50 PM

It doesn’t really matter what they say, or why they do what they do, because this situation has been created now, and as Jesse said so well, we ALL have to take responsibility, right now.

Except that without analyzing what they say and what they do, it’s impossible to stop.  Yes, we all have to take responsibility, right now.  But that’s impossible to do when it’s taken as axiomatic that suburban landscapes are safer than urban ones, or when you have all these euphemistic thought patterns that preserve segregation. 

I remember the moment it dawned on me that when someone used the word “dangerous” to describe a neighborhood or a public place, they meant it was sullied by black people.  Without examining and coming to understand things like that, I don’t think we can take collective responsibility against racism.  Because it remains easy to couch racism in ways of thinking that don’t sound like racism on the surface.  If the only thing you see as racism is when someone says “I hate black people” or “we should have segregated water fountains”, it becomes very easy to absolve yourself of any responsibility. 

I agree that pointing fingers about who did what 30 years ago is a waste of time.  But it’s important to understand the thought processes, the language used, and the ways racism was just shoved behind the couch rather than actually making it out to the dumpster.  Because that didn’t stop with the end of Jim Crow, or the busing controversy, or re-branding your fried chicken joint.

Comment #105: The Opoponax  on  02/21  at  04:56 PM

Opoponax, I agree with you. That’s why I study this stuff for a living at the moment. I think I didn’t make my point clearly enough, which is that people can claim to not be racist, but when they do things with results like creating a residentially segregated country, they shouldn’t let themselves off the hook. It’s not okay to pat yourself on the back for moving for the schools instead of moving because of all the black people. It has the same effect, so everyone has to take responsibility for fixing a problem that so many people helped to create. I’m not saying that the arguments and words they used are useless to us now. I’m sorry I didn’t make that clear.

Comment #106: F. McGee  on  02/21  at  05:27 PM

But that’s impossible to do when it’s taken as axiomatic that suburban landscapes are safer than urban ones,

Or rural ones are safer than urban ones as I kept hearing from many clueless mostly White upper/middle class undergrad classmates and co-workers when my experience and those of many POC classmates were the exact opposite. 

It was in rural Ohio that I encountered White locals who wanted to start fights and beat up people such as myself because we were non-White, there was interracial dating, and/or because my campus was openly accepting of GBLT students and predisposed to radical progressive-left politics. 

A fellow Asian-American friend of mine who grew up in NYC during the 1950’s-1970’s recalled how he never felt more threatened because of his race and ethnicity than when he happened to be stopping by a gas station in rural Georgia during the early 1990s and was threatened by a group of armed local White dudes. 

In NYC…..not so much beyond schoolyard fights in early elementary and junior high…and Boston…even less beyond a couple of racist utterances from a couple of White Irish Dorchester/Southie teens who ran off after I gave them a harsh glare when I did some Census 2000 work in those areas.

Comment #107: exholt  on  02/21  at  05:28 PM

I reread your post and feel like I might have taken that particular part out of context, because I realize that you and I seem to pretty much agree.  I’m still confused by what you mean when you say that it doesn’t matter why whites left the cities, doesn’t matter what people say/do—of course it does!  Understanding this stuff is what enables us to “take responsibility”, as you put it.  We can’t just wipe the slate clean and say “oh, well, who cares why whites fled to the suburbs…” and still think about this rationally.  What we have now came out of what happened before, and quite specifically why people did what they did and what terms they couched it in (versus what they really meant, of course). 

I know that you understand that, so I guess I’m curious about why you said what you did?

And of course fully aware that I might just be grossly misreading you.

Comment #108: The Opoponax  on  02/21  at  05:39 PM

And, exholt, I’ve always understood “the suburbs are safer” to mean “the suburbs are a controlled environment where I can choose to associate or not associate with others as I see fit”.  Even if you lived in a part of the country where there’s likely to be a certain degree of racial diversity even in suburban areas (New Jersey, for instance), you can choose a particular block or development where the racial or ethnic mix is more to your liking.  Or if that is for some reason not possible, you can simply not choose to associate with any of the neighbors.  Especially easy since very little shared public space exists and everyone drives, which means that you don’t even have to see anyone who is different from you if you don’t want to. 

An Asian friend of mine is marrying a white guy who grew up in the same suburb she did.  Her family is very assimilated into the local white “American” culture, and her parents are highly educated white-collar types, as are his parents.  And yet his parents seem to feel like her family is unspeakably “foreign”.  Contrasting this with my incredibly diverse apartment building and neighborhood kind of puts the whole thing in perspective for me.

Comment #109: The Opoponax  on  02/21  at  05:53 PM

reread your post and feel like I might have taken that particular part out of context, because I realize that you and I seem to pretty much agree.  I’m still confused by what you mean when you say that it doesn’t matter why whites left the cities, doesn’t matter what people say/do—of course it does!

Don’t mean to be speaking for the writer…but what I took out of it was a variant of “intentions don’t matter if the end result is the same harmful end result”.

Comment #110: exholt  on  02/21  at  05:55 PM

I remember the moment it dawned on me that when someone used the word “dangerous” to describe a neighborhood or a public place, they meant it was sullied by black people.  Without examining and coming to understand things like that, I don’t think we can take collective responsibility against racism.  Because it remains easy to couch racism in ways of thinking that don’t sound like racism on the surface.

Absolutely.

I’ve long considered racism to be like a very ingrained delusion that is actually so widespread that it’s often hard to see without patience and an actual desire to know. (Fish have never heard of water, etc. etc.) Part of its power is to make wrong ideas seem perfectly reasonable through framing.

Comment #111: atheist  on  02/21  at  05:56 PM

An Asian friend of mine is marrying a white guy who grew up in the same suburb she did.  Her family is very assimilated into the local white “American” culture, and her parents are highly educated white-collar types, as are his parents.  And yet his parents seem to feel like her family is unspeakably “foreign”.

The funniest part about the “assimilation” aspect is that by most appearances to other Americans, I can easily pass for being “assimilated into the white “American” suburban culture” despite my being growing up in a low-income family and attending “inferior”* NYC public schools where working/lower-middle class POC made up at least half of the student body. 

However, one thing I cannot stand about that culture is the uncritical assumption that all things Western are automatically superior and all things non-Western are automatically bad….something which I’ve argued against endlessly with older cousins who have been fully assimilated and some Asian-American classmates from backgrounds very similar to the ones of your friend. 

Probably one reason why I got along much better with the international students from East Asia than with most of the supposedly fellow Asian-Americans** at my undergrad. 

* Directly quoted from a few more explicit undergrad classmates and a Professor at a campus I happened to be visiting who assumed I was doomed to fail as a scholarship student at my private liberal arts college because I wasn’t privileged to attend a private/boarding school. 

** Had little to nothing in common with them as they came from sheltered near all-White upper/upper-middle class suburbs….and many had the similar/same disdain for non-Western things as their White suburban neighbors.

Comment #112: exholt  on  02/21  at  06:51 PM

I’ve always understood “the suburbs are safer” to mean “thesuburbs are a controlled environment where I can choose to associate or not associate with others as I see fit”.

Living in various cities over the past several years, I’ve become adept at understanding the difference between “unsafe” and “annoying.” Yes, a few high-school aged street toughs walking down the street at night might be a reason to be on your guard, but the middle aged guys who spend all day drinking on the front stoop are merely a harmless annoyance.

The suburbs give you more control over your surrounding environment because the harmless annoyances of denser areas aren’t a factor. We couch it in terms of “safety,” but it’s more about the myth of control over our personal space.

To a degree, I think that white flight will almost always remain a reality. At issue is ensuring that safe streets, good schools, and functional infrastructure isn’t something that governments pay attention to only when white people life there.

Comment #113: Tyro  on  02/21  at  07:46 PM

However, one thing I cannot stand about that culture is the uncritical assumption that all things Western are automatically superior and all things non-Western are automatically bad….something which I’ve argued against endlessly with older cousins who have been fully assimilated and some Asian-American classmates from backgrounds very similar to the ones of your friend.

Just FYI, this isn’t what I’m talking about when I use the term “assimilated”, and I wouldn’t say that it’s true of my friend and her family, at all. 

I mainly mean that they fit easily within what most of us think of when we think of American middle-class culture.  They don’t live in an enclave where everyone they know is from the same particular part of India as them (as is pretty common here in NYC).  They wear Western-style clothes except for formal religious ceremonies and rites of passage.  They have a better command of English than a lot of the Whites in their community do.  They gave their kids names that make sense to Americans and allowed them to have extremely normal “American” childhoods and college experiences. 

There is nothing wrong at all with not doing it this way, BTW—my only point was that there’s really no reason for my friend’s fiance’s family to regard them as “foreign”, aside from the fact that they’re brown, Hindu, and speak with the slightest hint of an accent.  Which outlines for me the difference between suburb and city, and the racism hidden in the fabric of the suburban landscape.

Comment #114: The Opoponax  on  02/21  at  09:04 PM

Opoponax, I wrote that carelessly, is my only explanation. It does matter why; I’m trying to explain to people why they might say “I moved for the schools” and think that absolves them, and I’m saying, it doesn’t. It was bad phrasing, and in haste I didn’t re-read what I wrote. I’m glad you see that we’re in agreement, because I certainly think so.

Comment #115: F. McGee  on  02/21  at  11:43 PM

Of course it can.  However, it will be called out as racist when you imply that the heart of the problem is that Blacks are lazy, or that employers who hire Latinos are therefore “not the problem”.
The Opoponax

I implied nothing of the sort.  I suggest you inferred it.  You, as others continue to do on this thread, reinforce the point that Holder made and I pointed out again in my first post.  Non-orthodox observations are not tolerated and are instead attacked as racist, quickly and repeatedly.  It is hardly surprising that there is little discussion of race outside the proscribed views.  It is much safer to keep one’s mouth shut. 

Current day America has one of the most rigidly class-bound societies on Earth, as least among developed countries.  If you’re born on the top, there is little you can do to get cast out of heaven.  But if you’re born on the bottom, there is little you can do to pull yourself out of hell. 
MikeEss

Balderdash.  The UK still has us beat by far.  All of Latin and South America (OK, not Cuba), unless you are going to claim no countries in Latin or South America are “developed”.  Climbing out of the lowest classes is hardest of all anywhere, not just the U.S. but it’s done,  unless your requirement for class fluidity is to jump from nothing to seven figures within one generation.

Comment #116: MiddleageLiberal  on  02/22  at  02:59 AM

“Current day America has one of the most rigidly class-bound societies on Earth, as least among developed countries. . . .
  MikeEss”

Balderdash.  The UK still has us beat by far.  All of Latin and South America (OK, not Cuba), unless you are going to claim no countries in Latin or South America are “developed”.

Hmmm.  I feel like I’ve left a developed country out in the consideration of who might have a more rigidly class-bound system than the U.S.  Somewhere the class system is almost like castes, but it’s just out of reach of my mind,  not quite touchable….... oh yeah, INDIA.

Comment #117: MiddleageLiberal  on  02/22  at  03:04 PM
Page 1 of 1 pages
Commenting is not available in this channel entry.