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Next entry: Cheap Crap - Holla! Previous entry: Not Quite Ready

Take the train and take your life back

Via Brian, a story from Florida about how the surge in train use hasn’t gone down as much as you’d think as gas prices creep down to where they were.  This was my concern as I saw gas prices start going down at the pump.  (In Austin, it’s below $2 a gallon now.)  If it deflates the cost of food that wouldn’t be the worst thing for my pocketbook, but the environmentalist in me was hoping to see gas prices stay high until it forced this country to rebuild our infrastructure.  We’ve already demonstrated we won’t do squat until it’s too late, so I was glad that it was looking too late before it might really be too late, and kicking people into gear.  All discussions about taking steps towards discouraging car use and encouraging public transportation are usually met with a chorus of howls from people who may buy organic and recycle, but don’t want to give up their cars and will cling to all negative side effects of the change without asking the question, “Are the negative aspects of the change worse than the negative aspects of continuing as is?”

A lot of people need to use their cars.  But I think a huge percentage of car use could be replaced by public transportation, bicycling, or walking, but that people don’t see the changes they could make because habit sends them straight to their cars.  There’s the fear of change aspect, and generally the only way to overcome that problem is to put enough obstacles up that people have to change.  It’s basic psychology.  You could have a dog that sleeps on your couch and it’s not enough to buy him a softer, more appealing bed.  You have to put laundry baskets on the couch so he can’t get up there and has to resort to using the bed, and only then will he find out that it is indeed more pleasant to sleep on the bed.  It seems that this effect is happening on the trains.

“We’ve seen a slight drop off, but it’s still considerably above last year,” said Tri-Rail spokeswoman Bonnie Arnold. “People are saying they’ll stick with the train because it is less stressful than getting into their cars and driving.”

I don’t have a car, and have to borrow Marc’s if I need a car.  Because I have to borrow, I’m pretty stingy about when I ask, which puts my butt on a bicycle or a bus a lot more often than when I had a truck.  It’s so worth it, too, because Arnold is right—-driving is stressful.  Very few other daily tasks have as many instances where you are frustrated or delayed by someone else’s inconsiderate behavior.  Worse, you have to engage in a behavior that isn’t what you really evolved to do—-be tense and alert but still.  Be moving through space through your own mental processes but still in your body.  Neither the bus/train nor the bicycle causes you to mix signals like this.  On the bus, you can relax, and on a bicycle, the motion of your body matches your motion through space. 

I still hold a massive grudge over the great wrong done to Al Gore in the 2000 election, when he tried to tie environmental concerns to the mental health concerns created by traffic jams.  He was right to point out that hours spent each week sitting in traffic, tensely waiting for an opportunity to move, hating your fellow human being, and just generally putting up with the helplessness of traffic isn’t good for people’s mental health.  It’s a small thing, but true—-I suspect a lot of people who are risks for depression could be pulled back from the brink if they were given back the hours they spend stuck in traffic.  And while being on the train or bus isn’t kicking it in your backyard, at least you can read or pay real attention to your music or a podcast, or even just stare into space a little and clear your mind.  But it was a big joke then.  Not so much now.  Maybe now that we’re going to have a President who can speak in complete sentences, and who is committed to weekly internet casts, we can start making these connections for people.  Driving less isn’t necessarily a sacrifice.  It can be about getting some of your life back.  Like Brian says:

I was sold on the train when I lived in San Francisco, and now, after getting off the train in Boca having watched the Rachel Maddow Show podcast, I’m in a fine mood, as compared to when I used to get out of my car, ready to eat a live baby because I just spent half an hour watching people zoom by in the HOV lane while inching along from Hillsboro to Glades listening to NPR and hating life.

Of course, the other thing that the article points out is that no matter how cheap gas gets, the train or bus is cheaper.  However, this perversely is part of the problem, because driving is understood as a middle class privilege.  People will give it up if it gets way too expensive for them, but they’ll push it.  Which is why you didn’t see train usage go up even more, because some people would rather drain their bank accounts than feel like they’ve slid down the class ladder by getting on a train or a bus. (That they could use the money saved for other conspicuous consumption seems lost on people.  The lady they interviewed in the article who made the switch could buy an iPhone after just two months of gas savings.) I’ve definitely seen this reaction from people when I tell them I take the bus on occasion.  The classic “blink blink” reaction you’d get if you said that you live on Ramen noodles.  Like pity and confusion.  Which is one reason that while trains may be more expensive to build and operate than buses, with no time advantage, they still need to be built.  Because the train doesn’t have the same downscale stigma attached to it that the bus has.  Everyone has seen movies where there’s subway scenes with guys in suits with briefcases on the subway.  Trains are just cooler and look more expensive, too.  That could go a long way to quieting fears of sliding downhill.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 12:54 PM • (277) Comments

Some of the best times in my life were when I was homeless in Missoula, MT (in a shelter) and I had to walk or take the bus everywhere (and this was with a small child, mind).  It was very liberating, in its own way, and I would happily go back to that (sans the homelessness).  It’s a pity their public transportation didn’t have more frequent stops at the place where I worked, or I could have stayed there (my car broke down before I was able to have saved enough money to recover and I had to move back in with my parents).

I miss it.

Comment #1: Atheist Feminazi  on  11/20  at  01:05 PM

My wife and I bike & walk a lot. Unfortunately, we live in So. California and public transportation is practically nonexistant, so we do have to drive quite a bit more than we’d like. I envy my best friend who lives in San Francisco & is considering ditching his car altogether because he only has to drive once a month. Maybe.

Comment #2: Mark  on  11/20  at  01:12 PM

Some of us don’t use our cars out of habit, especially when gas prices are low enough, but out of a careful cost benefit analysis.

I live in one of most public-transportation heavy areas in the country (the NYC area) ... yet I still use my car to get to and from work.  Why?  Well, my wife has long lived in Queens and worked in NYC itself, so we are not keen to move from her place.  OTOH, I have a job in NJ.  To take public transportation to work involves me taking a bus to a subway to a bus.  And that last bus only leaves to my workplace once every hour or so.  So unless I get up super-duper early, I risk missing the bus and being late to teach class.

And even if I make the bus ... taking the bus involves a 1 hr, 50 min + commute (into work) ... whereas my modal commute in driving is 1 hr. 20 min.  Getting home is even worse as they force most buses to go through the always crowded Lincoln Tunnel.

So even though the bus is cheaper, I’m still driving to work every day.  And I’m not sure that it will ever pay to have the bus go to my workplace any more often.

We’ve, to some degree, developed ourselves into a car culture in a way that would be very difficult from which to extricate ourselves.  Hopefully future development will be in ways in which you have a bunch of people going the same direction at the same time all the way from their home to their work that frequent, reliable public transportation is feasible.  But when you have one person commuting from Queens to Wayne, another from Brooklyn to Clifton, etc., you end up with crowded roads, lots of gas being used ... but no clear public transport routes.

Comment #3: DAS  on  11/20  at  01:12 PM

I grew up in Michigan where The Car Is King and I was one of the few kids in highschool who didn’t get a car (even an old junker) at 16. I moved east and learned to take public transit and increased the amount of biking I did. I moved to a small town and even now we only have one car, so I usually walk wherever I need to go (living in-town helps this a lot). When I have to commute back down to my home office, it’s a train ride, which is pretty cool because it’s pretty much door-to-door service. People are SHOCKED when I say I get on the train for several hours in order to make it down to the office. They see me constrained by a timetable, trapped in a box for hours where I am at the mercy of others—as if traffic jams and breakdowns don’t exist. I explain that my hours on the train are incredibly relaxing. You can’t (or very obviously shouldn’t) read a book and drive a car at the same time, or work on the database or relax with a computer game while you’re navigating traffic. They serve beer on the train, I could spend 8 hours drinking beer and playing King’s Bounty, or finish off the book I don’t have time to read during my day-to-day life. Usually, the seats on the train give a lot of legroom and you get to watch the scenery as you go by. It’s great.

Yeah, I wish the schedules were a little better, I wish that the lines north of Springfield weren’t on Diesel and the trains were faster, but my time on the train is incredibly relaxing, or productive, or whatever I want it to be. But pretending like the grass is going to be greener on the other side if I were driving and stuck in traffic and worrying about that car that’s swerving a little ahead of me ... it’s just foolish.

Comment #4: Mighty Ponygirl  on  11/20  at  01:14 PM

Thanks for the link, Amanda. I’ll only add this—if the public transportation system as a whole didn’t suck donkey ass down here, I wouldn’t own a car, Unfortunately, the Tri-Rail is about the only good part of the system, and even then it’s only good because I live relatively close to a station and one of the campuses I teach at has a shuttle that runs from the station to campus. Otherwise I’m looking at a 2-hour bus ride—and I have students who do that.

The Catch-22 of the problem with public transportation is that a large chunk of the funding for it comes from gas taxes, so the more successful the system, the less money they get for it. It’s perverse, and makes me wonder if the people who approved the system wanted it to fail from the beginning.

Comment #5: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  11/20  at  01:14 PM

If more companies allowed it, I think telecommuting could easily become the new middle class privilege. It saves even more energy than taking public transit and your commute time goes to zero. Unfortunately, the percentage of companies willing to let workers telecommute hasn’t really changed much even as the price of gas has skyrocketed.

Comment #6: Ananael Qaa  on  11/20  at  01:15 PM

Unfortunately for us who live in rural America, we don’t get much access to those convenient methods of public transportation. Bicycling? Out of the question unless you want to risk your life on the highway (which bicycling on interstates/highways is illegal or at the very least a MUCHO bad idea). I do live in Illinois, but for chrissakes it isn’t all flatlands, so I couldn’t mountain bike it to work and college even if I HAD the time.
I live in subsidized apartments in a very small town with one or two stoplights only because some white collar CAT workers live nearby—needless to say I can’t afford a horse.
I could move to a city, but why? I’d rather eat crow than live within spitting distance of a bunch of angry morons who can’t determine the Constitution from their next court summons. I might be surrounded by wingnuts out here, but at least we all live out of earshot of each other.
In short, those of us in the real world do still need our cars. The only alternative to some is carpooling. And although technically I don’t carpool (I just give rides to people who don’t feel compelled to return any sort of favor or compensation because I’m a masochist like that), I’ll still do it because I feel it’s important (and my masochist self will continue to give in to the whining).

Comment #7: TheMadChild  on  11/20  at  01:16 PM

Of course, the other thing that the article points out is that no matter how cheap gas gets, the train or bus is cheaper.

I missed this ... since when is a train cheaper than a car?  Even here in the NYC area, it oftentimes costs more to take the train than to drive ... especially if you have a carpool and/or don’t have to worry about paying for parking.

It’s understandable why—outside of toll bridges, taxpayers foot the bill for all the roads, but any government payment toward rails and train stations is considered a “subsidy” that is always underfunded and perilously close to cancelation at the whims of the legislatures involved.

But, except when gas is super high, many times to get a train ticket is more expensive than to just drive.  Of course, trains are, in total, cheaper ... but the cheapness of trains involves factoring in costs that car drivers themselves actually don’t have to pay directly.

Comment #8: DAS  on  11/20  at  01:16 PM

One problem I noticed in my area: the MBTA assumes three very wrong-headed things about transit use:

1) people commute in and out of the city, not across it
2) people only use the service to commute
3) people work 7-8 hour days

Add in the reduced evening frequencies of service on many lines (compared to the morning) and I bike when ever I can even when my employer pays all but $9 of my pass!  Heavy use makes the system a complete clusterfuck, there are “paper” buses that really don’t run, the schedules are a vast work of creative fiction on must bus lines, etc.  Oh, but the commuter rail riders and express bus riders get instant action when they complain!

Comment #9: Ms Kate  on  11/20  at  01:20 PM

Not everyone’s public transportation experiences are so pleasant.  Here in Chicago, I would have to wait often for two or three trains before one came that had enough room that I could squeeze onto.  I would then spend the next 45 minutes (driving takes about 20 minutes) barely able to breath, packed in more tightly than if I were in the front row at a Pantera concert.  Every few minutes the train would slam on the brakes for no apparent reason.  More often than not, motion sickness would force me to get off two stops early and puke my guts out.

Comment #10: Jose  on  11/20  at  01:21 PM

I love trains, but the bus makes me hate my fellow man more than any traffic jam. I’ll do anything not to ride a bus. It’s not a class thing, on a train I can move to different car. I feel so trapped and pinned down in a bus I usually have to get off a block or two after boarding to keep from screaming.

Comment #11: dooflow  on  11/20  at  01:21 PM

MadChild, if cars became just a rural thing, we would have the problem nipped in the bud.  Your defensiveness is what I’m talking about.  Instead of getting defensive and looking for reasons that we can’t change, let’s focus on what we can change and be honest about it.  I remember living in a small town, and I cringe with shame to think of how much driving I did when I was 16, just because I could.  But everyone was like that.  The town was 2 miles across and yet somehow everyone drove everywhere.

Comment #12: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/20  at  01:23 PM

MadChild, rural drivers don’t cause the issues that car-mad society does in general.  There simply are not enough of you, as the McCain/Palin ticket found out.  It is suburban and urban car use that is the most damaging and the most efficiently replaced.

Comment #13: Ms Kate  on  11/20  at  01:23 PM

I mean, really, I nearly forgot I had a bike.  The only time I needed to drive was when I drove out of town.  That’s it.  Everything else could have reasonably been biking or walking.

Comment #14: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/20  at  01:24 PM

Amanda, when I was 10, my family moved from a 5,000 person town that was compact enough for me to roam at will.  We ended up in a trailer court in a mixed residential/industrial area at least a mile from the nearest school with a dangerous highway in between.

I cried and cried.  My wings were clipped.  I’d lost my freedom to roam beyond the trailer park.  I couldn’t just go swimming at the pool or the reservoir anymore.  I couldn’t just take my allowance, buy a pop, and walk around town.  It helped that the neighbor kid showed me the shortcut across the 3-track section of the rail yard, but my mother found out and got mad.  I did it anyway.  School bus was utter hell and always late and damnit, I hated not walking!

Comment #15: Ms Kate  on  11/20  at  01:28 PM

Sorry, we ended up in an exurban area with a nasty state highway and a railyard nearby, instead of a small town with everything in reach.

Comment #16: Ms Kate  on  11/20  at  01:29 PM

That’s hell, Ms Kate.  Small towns are definitely better as far as that goes.  Suburban areas are pure hell—-never again, if I can ever help it.

Comment #17: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/20  at  01:31 PM

I’ll take the train over the bus because I hate hate hate sitting in traffic.  Even times when I know, logically, that it would be faster to take the bus.

I’m the same way in the car, I’ll take a “shortcut” that loses me time so that I’m not sitting on a road I know is busy.

Comment #18: Dan  on  11/20  at  01:31 PM

While I like the idea of bicycling, it doesn’t provide enough carrying capacity when having to do grocery shopping, and the fact that most bicyclists who ride in my area have never bothered to follow the traffic laws (the day I see one stop at a stop sign will be the first) doesn’t make me well disposed to them. I do like the train, but the limits of where it goes are a problem, and bus transferring can be a problem (you’re only allowed one transfer from the train, and sometimes I need two. We also have one of the highest fares in the country). So I have a small car which I consider huge (it holds much more than I need it to), which I also need to take my mother to cancer treatments. Sometimes people have good reasons to own a car.

Comment #19: papa zita  on  11/20  at  01:34 PM

Get this; Due to high oil prices a couple months ago my city government decided to resurface the primary I take to work with what’s called “chip seal”. Basically gravel embedded in tar. Now this idea was a massively stupid one for a plethora of reasons but the relevant error to this subject is the little fact that a chip sealed road has a much higher rolling resistance than a smooth road.

Yep, due to high gas prices my city resurfaced my road in a way that a) decreases gas mileage of vehicles traveling on it by 5-10%, b) greatly increases tire-wear and c) makes it virtually impossible to bicycle on.

Thanks a lot you dolts.

Comment #20: Sarcastro  on  11/20  at  01:37 PM

We have a great public transportation system here in Portland and the trimet area and I really need to use it more. Luckily, I can adjust my work schedule to accommodate the max/shuttle schedule.

feel a new year’s resolution coming on…

Comment #21: Keith  on  11/20  at  01:45 PM

I agree wholeheartedly with you that public transportation is not only better for the environment but for the rider’s mental health.  I’m a bus-rider myself, and my car stays parked and waiting to take me places the bus doesn’t go.  I was discussing this post with my roommate, and told her your argument about trains having less stigma than busses, and she pointed out that in atlanta, the trains have a serious class stigma too - with racial undertones.  So maybe that won’t work EVERYWHERE.  I’d love a good atlanta area commuter train, I hate driving to the airport, but the only other option is an overpriced shuttle service that I also hate.

Comment #22: bethany  on  11/20  at  01:49 PM

Sometimes people have good reasons to own a car.

I don’t think anyone is disputing that. I still have one, and use it to commute one day a week and run other errands and I don’t feel guilty in the slightest for it. But there’s no question that I still drive, at times, when I could do what I’m doing in other ways. I’m just trying to change that.

Comment #23: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  11/20  at  02:03 PM

DAS, you dolt!  You claim you teach?  I hope not math, because here’s the sum of your idiocy: 2 hours and 40 minutes of totally unproductive time per day, or 3 hours and 30 minutes of class prep.  DUH.

Just admit it - you’re bitter and clinging to your car.

Comment #24: phylosopher  on  11/20  at  02:04 PM

It depends as well on how dedicated the city is to the idea of public transport.  Minneapolis/St Paul Metro Transit is the godsend that’s meant I’ve never had to own a car.  Even on the lines with the worst reputations, you still see buses crammed with suits at morning and evening rush hour.  The bus system is so much a part of life that I don’t think people would dare argue about “class differences.”  There’s simply not enough parking for those people to be taken seriously.

More to the point, the system encourages people to take public transport by offering free rides, the Guaranteed Ride Home program, sending out promotional tickets, putting in bike lockers, and more recently a contest for people who biked to work.

Comment #25: myself  on  11/20  at  02:05 PM

Just for the record, I bus to work.  It’s just easier, cheaper and I get to take a nap.  And I’m a big supporter of better train service nationwide.

However, the discussion here misses an important point.  There’s no real mystery to why even ec-friendly people cling to their cars.  People stay in their cars because having your car provides privacy and autonomy.  Most of us work in some kind of office or at least with other people.  We mostly go home to families.  The only private time a lot of us have is in our car, and people don’t want to give that up.

Autonomy means that if you feel like it, you can stop after work and socialize, shop or do any number of other things on the spur of the moment.  Can’t do that if you take the bus.

Comment #26: zak822  on  11/20  at  02:07 PM

For me, the problem was the local buses in Austin. Men seemed to feel like I had nothing better to do than entertain them with conversation. Maybe they thought they were being friendly, but I just wanted to get on the bus and zone out to my book or watch the scenery. I felt like an animal in a zoo exhibit. I would repeatedly have to say I didn’t feel like talking, and over time, I resented having to put on the obvious leave-me-alone game face. Honestly, if the bus culture had been more personally sequestered and less chatty, it would have been 1000 times better.

Now, I ride my bike to work (11 miles). It takes about 15 minutes longer than driving, and I have to wash my hair when I get to work. But it’s so much better than driving, and less frustrating than public transit (which takes exactly as long as biking on my route, and I’m sitting on my ass instead of getting exercise).

I guess I’m saying, it takes a while to find your mode when you shift the way you get around town. And even then, it takes 4 weeks to establish any new habit and really make it stick. You have to factor in the tangible and intangible trade-offs. Part of the trade-off is shaking yourself out of the old habit and the things you thought were limitations. It’s hard.

I think when Amanda said the train was cheaper than driving, she was factoring in not only train ticket price vs. gas, but also the car loan, maintenance, insurance, and depreciation.

Comment #27: cycles  on  11/20  at  02:11 PM

I’m a bike enthusiast, quite frankly because I’m in between undergrad and med school and can’t afford a car, but it’s really awesome. I ride 8-12 miles a day in hilly-ass Atlanta, and not only does it keep me fit, but my commute is longer than the ones my parents had in south Louisiana, where you have to head 12 miles north to find even a tiny hill. Surely other people can do this. The main problem is safety, because people around here tend to be assholes who react to bicycles by tailgating them and honking their horn repeatedly. Apart from public education and bike lanes (of which there are maybe 1000 feet in the entire city) the best bet is for everyone to do like me and buy one of those water bottle holders for their bike, and keep a fucking air horn in it, pointed directly backwards.*

*I’m not entirely sure I’m legally allowed to do this, but damn it’s cathartic to honk back twice as loud.

Comment #28: scarshapedstar  on  11/20  at  02:13 PM

I used to live in SoCal, and my commute to school was 1 and a half miles.  At first we would bike it, but we quickly learned that you don’t bike through the Pico/Rivera area, under highway bridges, or anytime after 11pm.  Much less walk it.  We drove our car every day that one and a half mile, parked it, and got an infinite number of parking tickets.

There are other areas that are just not designed for walking or biking.  Much has to do with the design of a town.  I’ve travelled a lot through many towns and cities in the US, and sometimes it’s as ridiculous as, you want something from accross the street, well too bad, no street crossing for a mile.  Or, you wait for the light to cross the street in one of those seven lane streets, and the light is not long enough for people-speed crossing!  Or you get stuck in one of those lights where the light “senses” when cars are waiting to cross, but not people.  Never people-scale.  All car-scale. 
 
My sister used to work for an architect’s studio in San Diego, and they where bidding for the design of one of those new California suburban developments from the last 15 years.  Their idea was to create towns where you could live, work, shop and get entertained within walking or biking range, all people scale, with walkways, small parks that are all different, nothing that resembles a strip mall.  They either got denied or had to compromise for “cost-effectiveness”.

Comment #29: raspberryjamba  on  11/20  at  02:15 PM

The suburbs of yore are still very much traversable by bike—and side baskets fit a paper grocery bag perfectly, which allows you to carry two brimming-full grocery bags home on a bike.

Exurbs are another story—but there are a multitude of wrongs associated with exurbs, depletion of farmland, the strain on the water table, and the need to drive EVERYWHERE being first and foremost. Not to mention the isolation from your friends and neighbors.

But for suburban and small towns, public transit is still very much an option. If you’re willing to walk 5-10 minutes to catch a bus, a local bus system should be able to take you to 90% of your daily destinations if you can’t walk to them directly. A well-planned bus route could service the major residential areas with the major commerical and industrial areas.  And no—this isn’t a regional privilege, I live in the north-east and I’m still out and about on cold, windy, snowy days.

More importantly, a well-planned local bus route would be good for the local economy. Cafes and coffee shops, bank branches, and grocery stores can set up at the bus stops to give people a warm place to wait or a way to pass the time if they miss the bus or a place to grab groceries on the way back home.

Another important good of public transportation is that it gives you a chance to meet your neighbors. If you know someone from the daily commute into the same office park, you’re more likely to chat with that person and that relationship can strengthen your community. You yourself are less isolated than you would be in the car.

Comment #30: Mighty Ponygirl  on  11/20  at  02:15 PM

And yes, cars cost much more than gas money. Didn’t somebody find that a new car ends up costing well over $2.00 per mile when you factor in everything?

Comment #31: scarshapedstar  on  11/20  at  02:16 PM

I’m very fortunate.  I live in a tiny downtown about a mile away from work.  I’m within walking distance to work, groceries, post office, pharmacy, the movie theater, museums, shops, and all the restaurants in town.  I walk to work every day, and I love it.  It’s such a relaxing way to start the day, and a nice “brain cleaner” for after work.  Plus, I get a nice little workout, fresh air, and some wildlife watching.

But I realize that I’m very fortunate.  I’ll be moving to a much bigger city within the next year, and I almost cry whenever I think about having to drive everywhere because the public transportation is so limited.  Hopefully we’ll be able to live close to downtown, which will help.

Comment #32: mary  on  11/20  at  02:18 PM

I’m also in Southern California, where the transit systems are set up so it’s virtually impossible to get from one area to another.  If you want to stay solely in, say, the Santa Monica/Westwood area, you have a great bus system in the Big Blue Bus.  When I lived in West LA and worked at UCLA, I took it to work every day and loved it.

But if you have to get from, say, Burbank to Westwood, forget it.  It requires three buses and two hours to go 25 miles, and that’s assuming you have perfect traffic.  Trying to get from one area to another is a complete fricking nightmare.

The city I currently live in has okay buses (and they’re very cheap) so I’ll sometimes take them for tooling around town (or walk).  It’s especially great for Christmas shopping because it’s a straight shot to one of the biggest malls in So Cal.  I only take the bus to work in an emergency because the bus takes half an hour to go three miles, and I can drive it in 10 minutes flat.

I really really really want a bicycle, but unfortunately I had to pay for $2300 of dental work, so the bike got pushed back.  Isn’t it pretty?

Comment #33: Mnemosyne  on  11/20  at  02:19 PM

An unmentioned benefit of eliminating car culture: less folks sitting in traffic for over an hour means less folks listening to Michael Savage and his ilk, taking their real problem (commuter stress) and associating it with whatever stressors they’re being told are what’s ruining their natural high.

Comment #34: Ginger Joe  on  11/20  at  02:21 PM

Let me start by saying that I love cars and I enjoy driving (I grew up surrounded by mountains, with plenty of twisty roads nearby; and I raced go-karts as a kid). Therefore, I only drive when I absolutely need to or when I’m certain it will be fun because I want my memories of driving to remain… er, memorable. I didn’t even buy a car when I lived in London, and I spent 4 of the 5 years I lived in DC without a car as well because driving in either one of those cities is nightmarish. If you truly like driving, that’s one more reason to do it selectively. Why would you risk ruining something that was fun in the first place?

Comment #35: Dan  on  11/20  at  02:22 PM

@mnem
Totally.  One time I had to leave my car at the shop and decided to take the bus to my job.  What usally took 30 minutes took 2 hours and 40 minutes, and had to sit outside waiting for each of the three buses it took, in nasty parts of town, in front of a Jack-In-The-Box parking lot, in front of a nasty strip mall, and it dropped my off right in the block where I worked, but I had to walk about haf a mile to cross the six-lane street.  The commute back was even worse, and the driver didn’t let me off the bus where I wanted him too, because he didn’t think it was safe! 

I use public transortation in NY all the time now, and the only unpleasant thing about it, is the loud teenagers around 3pm.

Comment #36: raspberryjamba  on  11/20  at  02:29 PM

papa zita - the failure of other cyclists to respect traffic law does not mean that when you get on a bike you have to blow through stop signs too.

Infrastructure is critical. Since I can’t afford a car, I chose to live where I do now because I could walk or cycle or bus for all my routine trips but there are parts of the city where that is impossible and/or dangerous: no sidewalks, high speed limits and no alternate routes/side-streets that don’t feed you straight onto the turnpike. When I need to run errands in that part of town I use the bus but I feel like I am risking my life. It’s fucked up because it is very dangerous to walk 500 feet from one store to the next and more willingness to walk versus drive is secondary in such an environment.

Half those businesses are going to fold in the next few years anyway so I suppose that justifies driving the 1500 feet that will be between the ones that survive the recession…

Comment #37: Paris  on  11/20  at  02:30 PM

I envy those of you who can walk/bike!  I live in libertarianland, AKA Kansas, and while there is some public transportation, it only goes to downtown, and doesn’t reach out very far.  So, in effect, the only walkable area of the city is also the only place we have a bus system.  And NOBODY cares.  Are there any effective ways to increase awareness of the benefits of public transportation?  I hate driving to the grocery store (it’s about a mile and a half from my house) but with a 20lb bag of dogfood a week, biking isn’t always feasible.  Buses along the main roads (amazing city layout, in an actual grid with a major street every mile) would be simple to implement and use, but there doesn’t seem to be any drive for the city to do so.

Comment #38: Emaloo  on  11/20  at  02:33 PM

MN has a really really really terrible public transit system.  My job is about…10 miles from where i live—so it costs more to take the bus for an 8-5 job then it does to drive—since fares go up to 2 bucks both ways (unless gas is over 4.00 a gallon, and i have to pay for parking).  yes, i took into account milage. 

it also takes a hell of a lot more time.  to go ten miles at 8 in the moring takes almost an hour.  vs the 20 min in BAD traffic for driving.  and i live right on a bus line, in the middle of the city, in one of the best possible place to catch a bus in the twin cities.

Comment #39: lisag  on  11/20  at  02:43 PM

Autonomy means that if you feel like it, you can stop after work and socialize, shop or do any number of other things on the spur of the moment.  Can’t do that if you take the bus.

I get what you’re saying, but I don’t feel that living without a car has stopped me from spur of the moment things. Mind you, I live in an area with good public transportation and plentiful car services and taxis, so I’m spoiled for options.

Rather than ruin my socializing spur of the momentness, I think not having a car has restricted my more wasteful spur of the momentness. If I wanted anything I’d hop in the car and go get it at the 24 hour Meijer or smokes and beer drive-thru. Convenient, yes. Did I really need to buy beer or smokes or drill bit right that very second (often at two in the morning due to insomnia)? No. It was convenient but it also kept me from finding a better, less spendy activity.

I do agree on the solitude bit though. And I do miss having the luxury of driving for miles on country roads with the radio on and the windows down. But I indulge when I go home. In the meantime, I’m fine with my MTA pass.

Comment #40: elise  on  11/20  at  02:44 PM

I’ve definitely seen this reaction from people when I tell them I take the bus on occasion.  The classic “blink blink” reaction you’d get if you said that you live on Ramen noodles.  Like pity and confusion.

I’ve had that too. Here’s the thought process: no, you’re not black or Hispanic, so you must either be dirt-poor or have your license suspended or a medical condition that makes you unfit to drive.

the fact that most bicyclists who ride in my area have never bothered to follow the traffic laws (the day I see one stop at a stop sign will be the first) doesn’t make me well disposed to them.

Sorry, but in parts of the US—especially the south, it seems—cyclists are treated not just as weirdos, but as threats to drivers, for some bizarre reason. When you marginalise cyclists, you end up with cyclists who behave like they’re marginalised. That’s pretty much guaranteed: go to a place where cycling is normative and you get cyclists who don’t behave like they’re social outcasts. It’s the same with public transit.

Comment #41: pseudonymous in nc  on  11/20  at  02:47 PM

And picking up on what Paris said, if the infrastructure and a degree of safety is provided, you bring in new cyclists who don’t act like they’re in Dark Angel

Comment #42: pseudonymous in nc  on  11/20  at  02:49 PM

We’ve only had a transit system here in small-town Red California for a few years.  It expanded from the dial-a-ride program to the point where there is a significant ridership, mostly from the folks who live in the southeastern poorer area near where I live.

The real problem with rural areas is getting from town to town.  I have had to leave my car at the dealership half-an-hour from here, and they only had bus service back to my town in the afternoon, so I had to cool my heels for a while.

My family once hosted a family from Scotland.  They walked all over the place, and not surprisingly were in pretty good physical shape for walking where native Californians would drive for 5 or 6 minutes.

As long as people associate especially buses with the “lower classes” (this is usually racial dogwhistlng), a certan subgroup of people won’t want to take them. “My car is my castle. In it I am master or mistress of the road. I don’t have to interact with anyone who threatens my worldview.”

These people are also often the worst drivers, too.

Comment #44: sara  on  11/20  at  02:56 PM

Amanda, when gas climbed to $4 a gallon here in Tennessee I was glad, and I have definite mixed feelings about it being less than $1.75 now.  And I live in rural country with a 20-mile commute each way, and because I own a small farm and lots of animals, I need a pickup truck instead of a little teeny car.  When gas is $4 a gallon, my commute costs me $8 a day in gas alone.  Cutting that in half is going to save me about a kilobuck a year, if it holds.

But we have got to get people in metro and suburban areas better transportation options.  Creating a demand for alternatives to driving is the only way that’s going to happen.

Comment #45: elmo  on  11/20  at  02:56 PM

In my experience, taking the bus isn’t significantly better for my mental health than driving.  The bus gets stuck in traffic the same as any car.  I live two miles away from my job and, at least a few times a year, it takes more than an hour to get home from work.  I was once trapped on the bus for an hour and a half during a windstorm.  And the bus can be incredibly frustrating when it doesn’t show up, shows up late, or leaves a few minutes early.  If it only shows up once every hour or half hour, that puts a serious cramp in my day.

There’s also the matter of fellow riders.  If you’re commuting in from the suburbs, it’s probably not too bad.  I don’t, however, and if I never again have to deal with a mentally ill passenger cussing me out, or the wretched body odor of a rank passenger, or a confrontation between a belligerent passenger and the driver (which can hold up the bus for 20 minutes or more as we wait for the cops), it’ll be too soon.

Comment #46: keshmeshi  on  11/20  at  02:57 PM

Whoa, “Dark Angel”, that’s goin’ back….

ANYWAY, is it just me, or is there a weird <u>aggressive</u> undercurrent to many of those defending their car use above?

Also: Hour+ commutes?  Your life sucks ipso facto.

Comment #47: Eric, Rejector of Memez  on  11/20  at  02:59 PM

I gave up my car several years ago (I’m lucky enough to live and work in an area where I can walk to pretty much everything I need, including the live rock clubs) but when I read this, I couldn’t help but think of my brother, who used to live in my neighbourhood.

He had a car, which he used every day. One day, I walked the 8 blocks to his house on a fairly nice spring Saturday, and he wanted to rent a movie. So we went back outside, and he went straight to the car. I was like, “you’re driving? It’s only four blocks.” His reaction: “I don’t have time to walk!” Dude. It’s Saturday afternoon and we’re RENTING A MOVIE.

He used to get angry until he was shaking over things like speed humps and other traffic-calming measures in our mostly-pedestrian-travelled neighbourhood. Finally, he bought a house out of town (which he couldn’t afford) and now he has to drive everywhere by necessity. The bizarre thing is, he thinks I should be jealous because I don’t have a car. Which costs him hundreds of dollars per month that I don’t need to spend. I’ll never understand.

Anyway, I love my brother, but it’s people like him who are the problem. He would feel underprivileged somehow if he walked, so he wastes the money he does have, and kills the planet in the process…

Comment #48: RacyT  on  11/20  at  03:00 PM

In short, those of us in the real world do still need our cars.

In short, those of us who live in large cities find our worlds to be eminently “real”, just like yours. Growl.

Comment #49: Well, what?  on  11/20  at  03:00 PM

3 hours and 30 minutes of class prep.  DUH.
Just admit it - you’re bitter and clinging to your car.
- phylosopher

Um ... not all that time is spent actually on the bus.  Some is spent getting to said bus: i.e. on NYC buses and subways that are so full you can’t get a seat.  You try prepping for class when you are standing up on a crowded bus or train.

Then when I get to the NJ Transit bus ... on the way there, since I have to get up at 5 frickin’ o’clock AM to get to class on time, I sleep.  So on my way in ... 1/2 way standing up.  Half way sleeping.  When do I use that time wisely again?

On the way back I do have time to prepare for class.  While the bus is in stop and go traffic.  Which means that, any given minute, the bus will stop or start suddenly causing my papers, if I have any out, to fly around.  And that’s assuming I can manage to work anyway without getting sick.  Did you know?  Many buses have what is known in the auto-biz as crappy suspensions?

Comment #50: DAS  on  11/20  at  03:03 PM

I take the bus everywhere - I haven’t owned a car in… over four years now.  To be fair, I lived in Boston Mass., and now live in Portland Oregon, so public transportation has rarely been a problem.

I find that while there are frustrations with each transportation option, I have a whole lot of potential for road rage, and so me not driving waaay outweighs the suck of bus scheduling.  I reminded myself of this when I rented a U-Haul truck earlier this year, and was shouting at the other drivers and getting very very tense.  The bus might get stuck in traffic, but it’s not my concern, which is infinitely better.

Comment #51: XtinaS  on  11/20  at  03:06 PM

<blockquotes>In short, those of us in the real world do still need our cars.</blockquotes>

I guess the RW is where those Real Americans Palin referred to live.  After 5 years without a car, where am I living?  Neverland?

Comment #52: Eric, Rejector of Memez  on  11/20  at  03:06 PM

Just a question—how many of you doing ok without cars also have no kids?

As to the issue of autonomy—I find that I have more autonomy taking a bus/subway, if it’s just me (and I’m staying in town).  I don’t have to worry about finding parking, navigating traffic, what happens if my car breaks down, etc.

But having a kid changes things.  Very young kids (who are not entirely toilet trained, e.g.) come with lots of stuff.  It’s one thing to have a “go bag” ready, put it in the stroller and head shopping or wherever in a car.  It’s another thing entirely to try and take a bus or subway with a toddler in tow.

Comment #53: DAS  on  11/20  at  03:07 PM

Another benefit of bicycling (when feasible) is that it covers your commute and your exercise in one swoop.  I’m in better shape than I’ve ever been, and I haven’t stepped in a gym in about six months.

Also, I buy groceries one backpack at a time (except kitty litter, which is heavy enough to justify using the car) - meaning I now do it often enough to always have fresh produce on hand, another health benefit.

Comment #54: scienceiscool  on  11/20  at  03:10 PM

Keshmeshi, do you walk then?

On days that I don’t cycle to work, I will sometimes walk 3/4 mile with my son to school, walk 1/4 mile from there to the train station, and walk another mile to work if I don’t take the subway.

That’s your 2 miles, right there.

Comment #55: Ms Kate  on  11/20  at  03:11 PM

While I like the idea of bicycling, it doesn’t provide enough carrying capacity when having to do grocery shopping,

What I do is borrow the car just for large amounts of shopping that I can’t carry on my bike.  Twice a month is what I’ve got that down to.  Car sharing programs are a great way to get around the problem of that once or twice a month that you can’t walk, bike, or take public transportation.  But I fail to understand saying, “10% of my driving cannot be replaced by other forms, so I use a car 100% of the time.”

Comment #56: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/20  at  03:11 PM

DAS, I used to take my kids on the subway and bus all the time from the time they were 1 and 3 onward.  Both in diapers or one in diapers, one at the transition stage. We could go out for the whole day with just a backpack and a small foldable stroller. 

Part of the “difficult” is the “lots of stuff”.  I will say from experience that 90% of the crap people haul along with babies is because they CAN not because they need it.  Suburbanite daytrippers are the worst offenders on the public transit systems around here - you know them in the city by their GIGANTIC strollers that are totally STUFFED with stuff they really didn’t need to bring along.

Comment #57: Ms Kate  on  11/20  at  03:17 PM

I enjoy riding the bus to work for the most part—my company pays for it, I have a severe aversion to driving in bad weather and live in Wisconsin, and I don’t have to worry about parking downtown.  There are some definite cons, however.  I have to walk over a mile each day because the bus stops aren’t very close to my office.  That’s not fun in the winter—or when it’s nearly a hundred degrees and disgustingly humid.  With the walk, my commute is an hour and fifteen minutes each way and I only live twenty minutes away from work.  When figuring out the “cost” of public transportation vs driving, a person’s time also needs to be factored in.  That said, when I can finally afford a car, I’ll still ride the bus to work.  But it will be nice to have a vehicle to take care of errands.  Particularly this week when my cat became seriously ill and I was desperately begging all my friends for rides on a daily basis to take care of veterinary visits, picking up his medicine, and finally finding a diet food that he’s willing to actually eat.

There isn’t *too* much of a stigma attached to riding the bus in Madison, but it depends on who you talk to.  This is a liberal college town.  Most of the folks riding my bus are college students, university and state workers.  Because downtown parking is at a premium, a lot of people ride the bus rather than pay over a hundred dollars a month for a parking spot on top of all the other costs associated with driving.  It would be great if the city would expand its bus service, or bring in a train.  I won’t hold my breath on the train part, though.

Comment #58: Blitzgal  on  11/20  at  03:17 PM

For me, the problem was the local buses in Austin. Men seemed to feel like I had nothing better to do than entertain them with conversation.

This has never happened to me.  Maybe it’s better now that a lot more people are taking them, and the presence of attractive young women on the bus isn’t an emergency situation any more?

Comment #59: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/20  at  03:23 PM

Unfortunately for us who live in rural America, we don’t get much access to those convenient methods of public transportation…. In short, those of us in the real world do still need our cars.

Sorry, “rural America” is not “the real world” for most of us Americans, or even a sizable minority of them. I sympathize with your predicament, but it’s an outlier, and when we’re discussing how to improve transit and transit policy, we’re not really talking about you.

People are SHOCKED when I say I get on the train for several hours in order to make it down to the office.

Of course they’re shocked. Spending several hours on a commute of whatever kind is insanity. Why would you expect them to be anything but shocked?

Comment #60: Tyro  on  11/20  at  03:27 PM

Tyro—it’s not a daily commute. smile At it’s peak I was doing this once a week.

Comment #61: Mighty Ponygirl  on  11/20  at  03:32 PM

There will have to be $2/gallon gas for about seven years before people start buying big cars and shunning mass transit again. $4/gallon gas spooked way too many people for too long for a brief dip to do anything.

Comment #62: Ben D.  on  11/20  at  03:35 PM

More importantly, a well-planned local bus route would be good for the local economy. Cafes and coffee shops, bank branches, and grocery stores can set up at the bus stops to give people a warm place to wait or a way to pass the time if they miss the bus or a place to grab groceries on the way back home.

I used to work in transportation research / consulting, and I can tell you that this does not happen. The reason is because it’s incredibly easy for a transit system to change the location of a bus stop, or to simply cancel an entire route. Not so much when we’re talking about light rail / commuter rail lines, which is why those are far more useful in spurring the kind of localized economic growth you’re talking about.

I think you could probably get pretty much the same results for cheaper with Bus Rapid Transit, but I have to admit I’m not all that familiar with the literature there.

Comment #63: spence-bob  on  11/20  at  03:35 PM

Bus Rapid Transit is the future.

Comment #64: Ben D.  on  11/20  at  03:37 PM

Sorry, but in parts of the US—especially the south, it seems—cyclists are treated not just as weirdos, but as threats to drivers, for some bizarre reason. When you marginalise cyclists, you end up with cyclists who behave like they’re marginalised. That’s pretty much guaranteed: go to a place where cycling is normative and you get cyclists who don’t behave like they’re social outcasts. It’s the same with public transit.

In Chicago, almost all major streets have bike lanes.  Mayor Daley has gone out of his way to try to make Chicago the most bike friendly city in the country.  Yet, I have never once seen a bicyclist sit through a red light if there are no cars coming.  Usually they just ride through without looking, and yell at whoever gets in their way, or whatever driver has to slam on his brakes to avoid them.

Once a month, we have a huge gathering of bikers, usually thousands, and they literally take over the street wherever they feel like going, riding through red lights and blocking traffic for miles.  Usually several people are arrested for getting into fights with drivers.  This event was started to encourage bikes, but has been taken over by the asshole bike community so they can have an excuse to just go out and get in fights and just generally be assholes.

Comment #65: Jose  on  11/20  at  03:39 PM

My last couple of jobs have been in sterile office park type places. One of them provided an infrequently-running, early-ending shuttle from the local train station, but in the end, the lack of flexibility, the fact that it doubled by commute time compared to cars, and the fact that I was trapped in the office park, because it wasn’t walking distance from the exit/mall made the whole enterprise impractical. Now I’m working in an office park where even that bare amount of public transport isn’t an option.

I’ve finally hit upon a solution: to start a company whose office is within walking or easy public transport distance of where I prefer to live. This may take a bit more planning to pull off, though.

Comment #66: Tyro  on  11/20  at  03:39 PM

When I was in college in Lawrence, Kansas, the bus system was terrific for students.  Buses ran all the time through campus to most of the campus buildings and residence halls, and out into the city to major shopping areas like downtown and to areas where there were large concentrations of apartment complexes.  Of course Lawrence is a university town and the large student population almost guarantees heavy ridership.

Now I live in Dallas and the bus system here looks like a Byzantine nightmare, but it does cover the area fairly well.  It does have its problems.  There’s no such thing as transfers and each ride is $1.25, so multiply that by the number of transfers you have to take (and double it for round trips) and it can get quite expensive.  On the plus side you can buy day passes that get you on any bus or train for the day, so if you plan ahead you can save a lot of money that way.  They have a very good website (http://www.dart.org) for planning trips, which you had better do beforehand!  The light rail system (what Atrios calls the SUPERTRAIN) is kind of sparse; except for downtown it follows the major expressways, but that’s by design as it’s supposed to be an alternative to being on those expressways.

I’ve used the bus system to get to work when my truck is in the shop, and it works out OK; but there’s no question that the truck is far more convenient.  I don’t have to regulate my life to the bus schedule, I can run errands in the middle of the day when offices are open, I can stop by the grocery store on my way home when I need to…none of that would be possible without the personal vehicle.  I think I could fairly easily give up a day or two a week of driving in to work, but converting completely to using the bus would be something I would avoid until there were no alternative.  And riding a bicycle in?  For-get it.  It’s Death Race 2000 on the major arterials here, and bicycles count double points…

Comment #67: liberalrob  on  11/20  at  03:40 PM

Including myself, the eight people in my department all take public transit to work every day.  Some come in by bus, others commuter rail, others subway.  Parking in Boston is either too expensive or unavailable, because certain areas of the city require you pay for a permit, and only distribute them to local residents.  Regardless, traffic around here is horrible enough already.  I can’t imagine what would happen if we didn’t have the MBTA.  Already long commutes would become unbearable.  No one I know sees public transit as the “low class” option, but that’s probably because the regional community is so dependent on it.  It’s also part of the local culture (as is hating how often the trains break down, the lateness of the commuter rail, fearing the bus drivers with a death wish . . . .

I’ve been car-free for four years (if I need one, I borrow my boyfriend’s) and it’s allowed me to save money every month.  If I had to make a loan, insurance, gas, registration, repair and possibly parking payment on a standard basis, the balance in my savings account would be $0.  Much easier to buy a multi-access transit pass for $150/mo.  I also don’t think it’s prevented me from after-work socializing or shopping.  But I’m lucky.  I specifically chose to rent in a metro neighborhood that has access to three different types of public transit, within walking distance from my front door.  If I miss the last bus because I’m having drinks with a friend, I just wait around until the commuter rail shows up.  Course, I’m also child-free, so it’s not like I have to be home any particular time for an important reason.

Comment #68: deep6  on  11/20  at  03:41 PM

You could have a dog that sleeps on your couch and it’s not enough to buy him a softer, more appealing bed.

Actually, one reason to own a car is to be able to take your dog places. The only place I’ve lived where dogs are welcome on public transit is Germany, where a family pass entitles five people and a dog to ride. I suppose I could call for a cab, but here most cabs take passengers to and from the airport.

Where I live too many buses are needlessly routed through downtown, where relatively few people work. The nearest train is three miles, and two bus lines away, with a park and ride lot that holds 12 cars. (The shopping center across the street, fairly empty during the day, warns would-be commuters that their cars will be towed.) My job is three bus lines away, with up to a half-hour wait to transfer. Buses here are used by students, retirees, young moms with kids, and some illegal immigrants. (Most of the undocumented ride mountain bikes to work, because of the need to transfer, and because bus runs are geared to daylight hours.)

Comment #69: Hector B.  on  11/20  at  03:41 PM

I use a car for a measly 2 mile one way commute because I think that it is safer than walking or biking for the neighborhood and (often very irregular) hours that I work, and for on-call situations. Otherwise, I’d probably walk, bike, or ride a Vespa. I am not particularly paranoid, since my university sends out, nearly weekly, a safety alert about someone mugged near the univ. , and it is not all that unusual for me to be driving in or leaving at 2 AM.

Public transit is nice when working people use it, and when it runs on a frequent schedule. Poor, rich, in-between - it doesn’t matter. They aren’t joy-riding. If your public transit commute includes the crazy, panhandlers, and packs of lower class teenage boys (or occasionally girls), well, not too great. You may not want to display your iPod or cell phone (although the kids probably have better ones).

Comment #70: NancyP  on  11/20  at  03:45 PM

One problem I noticed in my area: the MBTA assumes three very wrong-headed things about transit use:

1) people commute in and out of the city, not across it
2) people only use the service to commute
3) people work 7-8 hour days

Add in the reduced evening frequencies of service on many lines (compared to the morning) and I bike when ever I can even when my employer pays all but $9 of my pass!  Heavy use makes the system a complete clusterfuck, there are “paper” buses that really don’t run, the schedules are a vast work of creative fiction on must bus lines, etc.  Oh, but the commuter rail riders and express bus riders get instant action when they complain!

I agree on 2 and 3, but the bus usually handles my needs when the T doesn’t go where I need it to.

Comment #71: Juan Stoppable  on  11/20  at  03:45 PM

I’ve been at the best and worst ends of the transportation spectrum - living intown in Seattle and, now, in the suburbs of Atlanta.  In Seattle, I lived about within 2 miles of my office and most shopping/dining/entertainment options, so I walked or took the bus pretty much everywhere.  There were a lot of things to dislike about Seattle, but commuting certainly wasn’t one of them.  Here in Atlanta, I live about two miles from the entrance to my subdivision, a situation which is only made shittier by the stubborn refusal to put in frigging sidewalks anywhere.  I feel like I deserve some sort of combat medal if I take the dogs out for a walk and we all get back to the house alive.

We have bus service (sort of) out here in the ‘burbs, but it only goes downtown and I live at least 5 to 7 miles away from the nearest stop (no joke).  I would have to drive to the park and ride, take the bus downtown, catch the train to a stop in the neighborhood where I work and then take the bus again to get within walking distance of my office.  Or I could drive 10 miles to the nearest train station, take the train to the neighborhood stop and then take the bus.  I would love to be able to leave my car parked for weeks at a time (which was the case in Seattle), but as it stands now, my options are nothing but crappy.

Comment #72: MissyAnne Thrope  on  11/20  at  03:46 PM

<strike>Once</strike>Twice a <strike>month</strike>day, we have a huge gathering of <strike>bikers</strike> car drivers, usually thousands, and they literally take over the street wherever they feel like going, riding through red lights and blocking traffic for miles. Usually <strike>several people are</strike>nobody is arrested for getting into fights with <strike>drivers</strike>cyclists, or even threatening to run them downThey call it a “traffic jam” or some such

There.  Fixed.

Comment #73: Ms Kate  on  11/20  at  03:50 PM

Here in Atlanta, I live about two miles from the entrance to my subdivision

Ugh. Been there. Never, never again.

Comment #74: spence-bob  on  11/20  at  03:53 PM

That’s nice Juan - IF the bus runs on time.

If the buses ran on time, my husband wouldn’t have needed a motorcycle to get to work.  The CT2 is a clusterfuck.

Comment #75: Ms Kate  on  11/20  at  03:53 PM

For me, the only downside to taking the bus is the time cost. When I drive to work, I can get there in 15 minutes. When I take the bus, it takes over an hour to get to work an almost 2 hours to get home. I don’t have the kind of job where I can take it home with me or work on it while in transit, so when I take the bus, I always bring a book so I have something to do, but…that’s a *lot* of time that is dedicated from getting one place to another.

I live in a small city, and commute to our region’s central city for work. I can walk to the end of my street to pick up my bus, but I’m in Zone 1, so there are no express buses, which is why it costs so much time. I’d have to drive halfway to my final destination to get to an express bus stop! And I can’t bike because I’m disabled (albeit only temporarily, until I have joint replacement surgery - it’s hard to ride a bike when one of your hips has almost zero range of movement).

I’ve written letters to our our transit system to address these kinds of things, and I know that they are working on some busways to improve express service between the suburbs and the central city, but as of right now, the car is so much better than the bus. I did it for a couple of years, but I have 2 part-time jobs that require me to be home earlier than I could ever get home from work when taking the bus. (I carpool to both of my part-time jobs).

Comment #76: maurinsky  on  11/20  at  03:56 PM

I am visually impaired, so obviously I do not drive or own a car and never have. I moved to Portland, OR specifically for its public transportation rather than the lack thereof in the midwest.

Are cars convenient? Of course! I partake in a car ride now and again. But believe me, it is possible to have a productive and enjoyable life without a car. You can do almost everything without a car. I get my groceries delivered and shop online a lot. I factor shipping into my budget as transportation costs. On a macro level, it is cheaper and better for the environment when safeway delivers 20 people’s groceries in one mapped out route than 20 people going in 20 separate cars.

Here is the thing about public transportation, though. I, too, have experienced the eyeroll of disgust at the very mention of public transportation. It is associated with the lower classes and it can be a longer commute and crowded and have limited service that makes it hard to use. But the more people who use it, the better the service gets. In the midwest where I grew up, public transportation is awful. Buses only come once an hour, they shut down at 6:00, they can be overcrowded during rush hour. But in Portland, where the general population values public transit more, it is much improved. Literally, the more people who use it, who demand it, the better it gets.

And I’ll also agree that a lot more middle class people in Portland are willing to ride light rail or streetcars rather than buses. Which is fine, I suppose. But limits your freedom on public transit greatly. I just want to say, get over yourselves. Buses have a fun little culture, too. You get to know the bus drivers and the regulars. It can be enjoyable.

Comment #77: Lexie  on  11/20  at  03:57 PM

she pointed out that in atlanta, the trains have a serious class stigma too - with racial undertones.

What is it…MARTA = Moving Africans Rapidly Through Atlanta

The train system is convenient…if you live and work near the trains.  The politics surrounding making it a viable, mass-use Public Transport system will likely not be overcome unless we do run out of oil.  Population centers from which large numbers or people commute, Norcross, Marietta, Roswell, Alpharetta, etc, do not get served for several reasons.  Among them are financial (MARTA is the only major metro public transport system that gets no state funding - that isn’t going to change anytime soon in a state this red) and fear (Cobb County - home to the Curious George Obama shirt restaurant - has made it a political point that they don’t want Atlanta public transport linking Marietta to Atlanta because they don’t want all of that inner city crime (brown people) out in their pristine world.  ATL traffic isn’t going to improve anytime soon.  The fact that MARTA shuts down just after midnight also means that if you’re going to buckhead or midtown to party on weekends you’re driving or taking a cab.

This weekend I am moving just SW of the geographic center of the city (Castleberry Hill), just across the street from a Marta station, but I will still be 2 hours of train and bus rides away from visiting any friends that live just OTP.  Without traffic - 25 minutes of driving.  ATL needs major transportation infrastructure upgrades to make public transport possible, but that would require tax revenue to be spent on a big guv’mint project.  Not going to happen.

Comment #78: Swedgin  on  11/20  at  03:59 PM

I also want to add as far as budget goes: Without a car I do not pay gas, car payments, car insurance or repairs. I pay 40ish dollars a month for a bus pass. And lets factor in maybe about 60 dollars a month, give or take 40, on delivery charges. I have always been able to live better and save more money than those who make the exact same salary as me. It is absolutely astonishing to me how much money people spend on their own car.

Comment #79: Lexie  on  11/20  at  04:00 PM

Ms Kate

There are certainly parallels between the bikers and the cars, but shouldn’t the bikers be better than that?  I was interested in Critical Mass (monthly Chicago bike ride), but one ride was enough for me.  It reminded me of when my dad used to make me go to his born-again christian church.  Everyone believes that you should be exactly like them, regardless of your situation.

Comment #80: Jose  on  11/20  at  04:03 PM

We are a tad avant garde in that we hand our kid a rfid-based fare card and let him loose on buses and subway trains.  He is 12.  He can take his 10 year old brother with him.  This comes in handy when we want them to join us in the city after school time - just jump on the express bus deadheading back into town and meet us on the other end.

Anyway, my older son detailed the following peer conversation:

Kid 1: You take the T bus??
#1 Son: Yep.  My mom pays for it.
Kid 2: but aren’t you scared?
#1 Son: Nope.
Kid 1: but there are all those people you don’t know on the bus
#1 Son: Yeah, so.  They are sitting quietly, mostly. 
Kid 2: Okay, but they are strangers
#1 son: So how does that make them scarier than a bus load of kids you know lighting stuff on fire and throwing it out the window?
Kid1 and 2: Good point!

Comment #81: Ms Kate  on  11/20  at  04:03 PM

Paris,
Where the fuck did I say I rolled through stop signs? Learn to read. I’m just saying that other riders don’t (they zip by me as I stop at a sign), and the more they look like bike racers (carbon-fiber frame, racing shorts and shoes and colorful racing shirt), the more likely they’ll blow through stop LIGHTS as well. They give people like me a bad name and make it very difficult to have much sympathy for them (or me, either). I have more consideration for my fellow vehicle drivers than they do, but what good does it do when the rest of them act the way they do?.

Car drivers don’t blow through stops with any frequency where I live, though the state workers who have offices nearby are notorious for the “rolling stop”, which I hate as well. And I don’t do THAT, either, skippy.

P.S. To the person above who mentioned that I could carry two brimming bags of groceries on my bike - not enough, I’m afraid. Three is the minimum, and those damn reusable canvas bags now in vogue around here are much smaller than a real paper bag, too. I live close enough to shop by bicycle, but the only thing I had that would’ve been perfect for carrying groceries were my old paper-boy canvas bags. They were capacious and one sat in front between the handlebars, while the others sat on each side of the rear wheel.  And I could hang one more of those over my shoulders if I needed to.

Comment #82: papa zita  on  11/20  at  04:04 PM

If the buses ran on time, my husband wouldn’t have needed a motorcycle to get to work.  The CT2 is a clusterfuck.

Yea, I love the 47 and the 57. I believe you about the CT2, though. My girlfriend lives on Park drive and I don’t think I’ve ever seen one.

Comment #83: Juan Stoppable  on  11/20  at  04:06 PM

Amanda, you mistake amusement for defensiveness. And ignore the whole thing about my choice to carpool living in rural U.S. because it is the only reasonable option besides hogging gas.
I am not defensive of cars. But mass transit/bicycling isn’t an option for many of us.

Comment #84: TheMadChild  on  11/20  at  04:13 PM

Keshmeshi, do you walk then?

I sometimes do, but the weather in my burg sucks.  The only viable route from home to work is a really busy street (almost highway) that doesn’t make for a pleasant stroll.  I sometimes have to take a bunch of stuff with me to and from work that would be a pain to carry on a 40-minute walk.  And walking home at night can be really dangerous on that busy street.

I’m also not trying to trash public transportation as a whole.  It’s much cheaper than driving and, in some circumstances, can even be faster. (Although only when it’s grade separated.  Bus Rapid Transit is bunk.)  But there are still issues with it that can make it at least as frustrating as sitting in traffic.

Comment #85: keshmeshi  on  11/20  at  04:16 PM

Maybe it’s the native Oregonian in me, but I don’t look at the transportation mix as an “either/or” situation.  It helps that I live in a relatively transit rich area - limited in hours and frequency off peak and desperate for light rail line promised for 40 years - but it is there.

We have one minivan for the 4 of us.  Lately, it goes 8-10K miles a year.  The main use determinants are weather, number of passengers, availability of parking, distance to travel, and amount of stuff hauled/to haul (we got $3K worth of IKEA cabinetry in it! Plus three people!).

We cut back on minivan miles due to a motorcycle aquisition.  My husband commutes on that because the busses are too unreliable.  It gets 80mpg and carries up to two people, with a cargo box that will take a bag of groceries.  It gets used for short-range errands now too.

I get a transit pass from my employer.  My husband gets a subsidy for travel. 

I bike all the way into work, or I bike to a subway station (2.5 miles) or take my folding bike on the commuter rail (1 mile each end) or take any number of buses (0.1 to 0.4 mile) to the subway or the express bus to 0.5 miles of my workplace (costs extra $$).  I also bike for short errands, and use multimodal options with the folding bike or the full size bike on a front bus rack.

The transit system is so strained around here and so stuck in the past in some ways, it really pays to have a great deal of flexibility when it comes to getting around.  Mornings are pretty good, but evenings can be random at best.  The car helps with groceries, soccer games, and cross-town family jaunts - we do a lot of drop off and pick up en route with that.  Same for the motorcycle.

One good innovation in our area is Zip Car, a car-sharing program where you reserve a car in your neighborhood on line and then go pick it up and use it with your special card.  Several local universities gave free spots because a lot of people just get rid of their cars when ZipCars are available for those big shopping trips.  You pay by the hour.

Comment #86: Ms Kate  on  11/20  at  04:17 PM

The changes that have come to my life in regards to “driving everywhere” have been this:
I have a job at a grocery store. No need to drive anywhere else to shop for groceries.
Which means I eat at home because making barely enough above minimum wage before union dues means I can still hardly afford the $1.98 gas, let alone eating out.
My recreation consists of local hiking. Or the internet at school… neither of which I have too much time for.
Any “special trips” to this magical “everywhere” are made out of necessity. In one sedan with my mother where we do all our in-city errands at once.
Not being able to afford much else means we learn how to do without: something many people will have to learn before they’d be willing to green up their lives. It is an unfortunate fact, but necessity is the mother of invention. And on that point, I agree with you. The majority simply cannot be guilted into going green, which is why I agree that either necessity or government intervention is the only way it will actually come about in a reasonable time frame.

Comment #87: TheMadChild  on  11/20  at  04:20 PM

if LA had a decent public transportation system, i’d seriously consider it.  as it stands now, the metro trains go to a few places, so i use them whenever i can, but the coverage is pretty ridiculous.  the bus doesn’t free me from the crushing traffic problems that make it a pain to drive my own car.

i have major issues with spending that much time in that close proximity with potentially a lot of other people, also.  i am extremely uncomfortable with personal space invasion.  i like living in a big city, but one where i have room to walk around.  this is why i don’t go to the mall during the holidays and why i never go to amusement parks and why i will never live in manhattan.  part of this is unquestionably due to past experiences with public transit in other cities and the fact that some people feel that being in a confined space like that gives them a license to act however creepy or annoying they want.  the constant worry that i have to wear a dumpy outfit, or else the creepy will be intolerable, and the frustration when even wearing gym clothes doesn’t make it stop—these are serious things that i think would have to change or improve considerably before i would feel comfortable taking public transportation anything more than occasionally.

another thing is that it seems like too many cities shut down their transportation too early.  when i lived in DC i had to miss so many of the headlining bands i was planning to see simply to be able to take the subway back home before it stopped running (since the cab zoning situation in DC makes it fairly easy to go bankrupt taking cabs really fast).

Comment #88: chareth  on  11/20  at  04:21 PM

I wanted to add that there are vanishingly few bus stops that offer seating or shelter, which also means that I might be standing there, in all kind of weather and temperatures, waiting 20 minutes for a bus. Standing for 20 minutes for a bus might not be a big deal to someone in the best of health, but for me, it means agonizing pain and stiffness, even if I’m walking around the bus stop the whole time.

Comment #89: maurinsky  on  11/20  at  04:24 PM

I feel you, maurinsky.  While the public transit was good for the purposes I required in Missoula (while I was unemployed, that is), it only ran hourly and most of the stops were just benches, which were unpleasant, to say the least, in a foot of snow with a toddler in a stroller.

Comment #90: Atheist Feminazi  on  11/20  at  04:28 PM

This is always a sore spot for me because I have a health condition that was basically summed up by my last doctor as “Do not walk a step more than you absolutely have to.” It’s an unusual condition and you can’t really tell by looking at me - I look like a fairly normal American with, admittedly, a few extra pounds in the winter when I can’t go swimming.

This adds up to needing a car for the rest of my life. I can’t walk to work, I can’t walk to a bus stop, and I cannot ride a bike. I do what I can to drive as little as possible - only one “shopping day” per week, combine visits, carpool whenever possible - but there’s only so little that can be done.

It’s frustrating, though, both to myself (I feel anger, sadness, and resentment at being ‘disabled’, even minorly) and to the sometimes hand-wringing well-meaning people who insist that THEY gave up cars, so why can’t everyone else, and why am I being so defensive? The reality is that people can come off as ‘defensive’ when they have legitimate reasons for needing a car - a car that they already feel guilt and anguish over - and then they feel that they have to somehow justify themselves and bare their soul to a stranger. It’s not the stranger’s fault that they touched on a raw nerve, but there it is.

And it IS a raw place. Most people I know hate their cars and want to live greener. But ‘how’ is the question. Many, many places still have terrible public transportation and I know that I, personally, have a stigma against public transportation not because I’m racist / classist but because the city I live in isn’t willing to invest the money to make them efficient, clean, safe, useful modes of transportation - hence, no one uses them unless they have to. The city I live in is quite huge, meaning walking and biking are now practical alternatives, but I live in the gas-guzzling South that sees all public transportation as somehow anti-American. I don’t like it, but short of running for public office, I don’t know what I’m supposed to do to fix it.

I vote Democrat and I drive as little as possible. And I walk as little as possible (see referenced disability above). And my parents get to come over to my (a grown woman’s!) house a couple times a month to help with household chores I’m not capable of doing myself. So, please, if I sound defensive, I apologize - this is my fault, not yours. But it still sucks.

Comment #91: Ellen  on  11/20  at  04:29 PM

The city I live in is quite huge, meaning walking and biking are now practical alternatives

Should be: “meaning walking and biking are not practical alternatives”

Thank you for listening to this whine. I shall shut up now.

Comment #92: Ellen  on  11/20  at  04:33 PM

Ellen

It seems like there are a lot of people who have health problems which prohibit the use of public transportation.  I myself am going through chemotherapy, and get nauseous very easily, which prevents me from taking the CTA.

My point is that public transportation will never be viable when only those who are strong, fit people can take it.

Comment #93: Jose  on  11/20  at  04:43 PM

I don’t own a car, and live in a fairly transit friendly city (Seattle).  I live in one of the most plugged-in neighborhoods in the city.  But still, there are only 2 to 3 places I can go on the bus where the time on bus/cost of bus/aggravation of driving tradeoff ends up in favor of public transit: downtown and capitol hill.  Why?  Because going to other neighborhoods can take 2 or 3 buses, and over an hour.  Biking (even walking!!!) can be faster.  Plus, the bus is often full of the crazies.  Like the lady who was beating her kid on the bus.  Or the guy who **always** asked if I was Jewish when I got on the bus, then started mumbling about Zionist plots, being off his meds, and avoiding the police.  Or the guy who shanked a bunch of noisy kids for being rude on the bus. In short, the bus is unpleasant, and if you get motion sick, you can’t read or do any other productive activities with the time. 
I love biking, but I’ve stopped commuting that way because about 50% of my housemates, including me, (I’ve lived with a total of 17) have been in accidents on their bikes.  Some of them are reckless, but a lot of us were pretty cautious.  And, let’s not forget it’s freaking cold to be biking down a steep hill in 35 degree weather! Or, for that matter, biking up hill for 5 miles at the end of a long, tiring day.
In short, I don’t own a car and I walk most places because I think it’s important and because I hated driving with a passion and was a danger on the road, but I think the “if only others realized how awesome it is to take public transit or bike” meme is a little off base.  It <emcan</em> be pleasant, but only in very narrow circumstances.  HAving to rely on a bus or a bike for absolutely everything is really tiresome. 
The ideal (For me at least), would be some kind of car share (not zipcar, which is pricey, but a collectively owned car.)  so if, say, 15 people collectively owned a car and lived near each other, they could sign up to use it for things like going grocery shopping, or that 20 minute drive that takes 2 hours and 45 minutes on the bus. 
And I agree with DAS…having kids turns the equation into a very different one.  Biking with kids or busing with kids because way more inconvenient.

Comment #94: t-ster  on  11/20  at  04:44 PM

The suburban/urban/small town thing is complicated. For instance, I like my small Texas hometown, but the job market there is abominable. Thus my job in Dallas, a strong job market. But of course the Dallas school district is one of the worst in the country, so where does that leave me and my family?

Yep, the suburbs.

Mind you, we live in Plano not only for the school district, but also because I can take the train to work. We only have one car, and public transportation has kept its mileage low and our gas bill down.

In the 1990s, my wife and I each had a car and never took public transportation. Later, we moved to NYC and went 4 years without a car, getting around purely by public transportation. Both methods have their downsides, and their quality is entirely dependent on the vagaries of the city in question.

In Dallas, the bus/train thing is definitely tinged with class and race issues. Express buses are cracker boxes, and local buses are melanin-heavy. Trains going north of town are toting whitey (hi there), trains headed south quite the opposite. It’s even worse in Fort Worth, where only on the weekends have I ever seen a lilywhite on a bus.

Do what you can, any sort of change in American attitudes towards transit is going to be glacial. Moving forward, but very slowly.

Comment #95: the matthew show  on  11/20  at  04:45 PM

I take a commuter bus 4 days a week (the 5th day I use my car to stock our firm with supplies and empty our recycling bins).  I like it, but I fall asleep frequently and once I even missed my stop :(

Comment #96: Amanduh  on  11/20  at  04:48 PM

the matthew show -

At least you don’t live in the Midcities.  The only transit here is the TRE and the parts of the Fort Worth bus system that go as far as Northeast Mall (I live in Euless).  The state of public transit here is pathetic, and I won’t take a bike because of the situations listed above about riding a bike in the South.  It wouldn’t bother me so much, but I tote a two-year-old, so car it is.

Comment #97: Atheist Feminazi  on  11/20  at  04:50 PM

the matthew show, I live in Lewisville and take the DCTA Commuter Express…and you’re right about the color issue.  My bus is 90% white.

Comment #98: Amanduh  on  11/20  at  04:54 PM

WOW!  So many Texans!  <3

Comment #99: Amanduh  on  11/20  at  04:55 PM

I have not had to deal with very many crazies on public transportation here in the Hartford region. I’ve ridden with some people with BO, and one guy who wouldn’t shut up the whole ride, but generally, it’s just folks getting to and from work.

Comment #100: maurinsky  on  11/20  at  04:55 PM

Amanduh, don’t call me that; it makes me cringe.

I’m a Montanan who happened to grow up in Texas and had to move back, and will head back as soon as possible.

And not one of the crazy libertarian ones.

Comment #101: Atheist Feminazi  on  11/20  at  04:56 PM

35 Degrees?  Sounds balmy.

I usually hang up the wheels when it drops to 15 or 10 and I can’t breathe.

Comment #102: Ms Kate  on  11/20  at  04:58 PM

INTPagan, I’m not really a Texan either.  I moved here from California in 2006.  I’m not excited about Texans per se, but the idea that there are reasonable folks living so close to me.  Sometimes it feels pretty alone down here.

Comment #103: Amanduh  on  11/20  at  05:00 PM

My point is that public transportation will never be viable when only those who are strong, fit people can take it.

In my neighborhood a shuttle bus can be called during normal transit hours (I think 6am to midnight) to bring disabled people from their home (or other location) to a destination within the regional transit grid (a grocery store, another home, a job, etc.) 

Public transit also accommodates the disabled on trains and on the subway.  There are several blind people who ride my bus route to work, and depend completely on public transit for daily city travel.

Comment #104: deep6  on  11/20  at  05:01 PM

I wish Austin would get their crap together about the trains. Seriously. Especially the one which is allegedly meant to run through San Marcos and down to San Antonio. While I can ride everywhere I need to go in Austin, driving between Austin and San Marcos and then to Wimberley is ridiculous.

Regarding grocery shopping, you can get a rear rack and a set of panniers for a hundred bucks (mine were a hundred bucks; you can get them for less) and solve the grocery bag problem at the same time as not driving to the store.

Crazy guys on the buses in Austin -are- excessively conversational and annoying; I’ve found that earbuds are useful for feigning deafness.

Comment #105: keineFurcht  on  11/20  at  05:03 PM

I usually hang up the wheels when it drops to 15 or 10 and I can’t breathe.

Part of the “difficult” is the “lots of stuff”.  I will say from experience that 90% of the crap people haul along with babies is because they CAN not because they need it.  Suburbanite daytrippers are the worst offenders on the public transit systems around here - you know them in the city by their GIGANTIC strollers that are totally STUFFED with stuff they really didn’t need to bring along.

Gee, Ms Kate, is there anything you can’t do?

Maybe you can come consult for me when I have kids so that I only take certified, approved baby items with me. I don’t have kids currently, but I do have a dog, and you’d probably gape at the amount of unnecessary baggage I take with me to the dog park for him. I like to sit down on the park bench and let him play with the other dogs, since ‘Mommy’ can’t run and play with him.

I probably don’t need the water bottle and water bowl, since they have a water fountain for the dog, but then I’d have to walk him over to that stop and I shouldn’t walk. I probably don’t need the pooper scooper bags, since the park provides their own, but then I’d have to walk across the park to get them, and I shouldn’t walk. I probably don’t need the toys to throw for him when I could just leave the toys home and run around with him, but I can’t run and he does get bored and destructive so easily. And I could probably keep the dog food in the car, rather than in my roller bag, but then we’d have to walk back to the parking lot for lunch and - I think I’ve mentioned this - I’m not supposed to walk.

I’m not trying to single you out, but I would like to gently point out that your “I can do this, what’s wrong with everyone else” attitude - though probably unintentional - really hurts people with genuine disabilities. I’m sure that you probably give them a I-don’t-really-have-to-say-this-do-I? pass, as in “Well, OF COURSE, I didn’t mean people like YOU, Ellen,” but the problem is that there are more people with “minor” disabilities than most people realize. While it’s really really awesome that you are Supermom, most of us can’t be, and we are sensitive enough to that fact without being told, unilaterally, that - apaprently - we’re all too stupid to realize that “crap” we’re lugging around isn’t necessary. People are smarter than you give them credit for and we carry our “crap” around for a reason, even if you can’t fathom what that reason might be because of your own privileges.

I hope that didn’t sound harsh, I’m sorry.

Comment #106: Ellen  on  11/20  at  05:07 PM

Car prices would also be reduced if they stopped advertising so %@*^ much on the teevee.

For over a decade of living in New York City, I haven’t owned a car. But I’m advertised one every three #@¢%ing minutes. I’ve learned to sing along with the ads, only I add lyrics insisting that everyone hates/won’t buy the car. It’s the only way to stay sane as cars are hawked as if they were as likely and frequent a buy as a fabric softener.

Today Atrios pointed to this NYT article about new import cars piling up at the docks under the LOLcats title “Do Not Want”.

I feel so validated.

Comment #107: Yamara  on  11/20  at  05:11 PM

It’s frustrating, though, both to myself (I feel anger, sadness, and resentment at being ‘disabled’, even minorly) and to the sometimes hand-wringing well-meaning people who insist that THEY gave up cars, so why can’t everyone else, and why am I being so defensive?

Ellen, how about this? I have lived in cities with relatively easy walking distance to most stuff I want. I have owned cars, and for the past year or so I’ve been driving to work fairly regularly, mostly by choice, because, ultimately, I choose to live in places that are not near my workplace. Nevertheless, I manage to be able to talk about what I would like in a better public transportation system and don’t get all upset about everyone else doing so. I know I do what I do because of my own choices, and somehow I manage not to make excuses for myself. Why is it that people who are constrained by geographic and personal necessity are the ones her complaining about discussions that revolve around, “how can we become less dependent on our cars?”

Everyone has their own issues. Can we liberals talk about practical solutions to big problems without a lot of guilty hand-wringing or indignation and defensiveness from those who have less choices than most of us do? Why are people like you and TheMadChild taking it personally when the rest of us discuss how we can become less dependent on cars? Most of us are concerned about our own communities and our own lives and what we can do in our own communities and lifestyles to improve our transportation options. The odds are pretty good that we’re focused enough on these issues that we simply don’t care very much what disabled people in rural areas are doing to get by when it comes to transport issues, as long as they’re managing to get around. Look, the two of you: you both have cars and manage to get to where you want to go. You’re a lot better off than people who don’t have the option of driving. Why not think about them rather than get defensive about how we’re discussing transit options that, for whatever reason, aren’t an option for you guys?

Comment #108: Tyro  on  11/20  at  05:19 PM

I also want to mention, just for informational purposes only, that every city that has a public transportation system is required by law to have paratransit. This is door to door public transportation for people with disabilities who are unable to use the regular transit system. (Such as if you cannot walk to a bus stop or stand on a train.) You have to usually call in advance and there may be long wait times because you are in a van with others usually and so you ride along as everyone gets schlepped around. Also, by law, all trains, buses, etc. must be wheelchair accessible and must have a system for the blind to be able to tell which bus and what stop they are at. (This may be as simple as training the bus drivers to call out stops.)

I’m not saying paratransit is the answer for you, Ellen. Just wanted to put the info out there in case people weren’t aware.

Comment #109: Lexie  on  11/20  at  05:20 PM

Re:mass transit in Seattle-

I had a doctor’s appointment in the part of town where I live in the middle of the afternoon yesterday and I had to take an HOUR to get the EIGHT miles from my work in downtown Seattle to that appointment.

That’s just sick for a city that would love to cinsider itself “world class”. Most American cities still have a long way to go in terms of mass transit but in Seattle after having the disappointment of the monorail (which isn’t being built apparently, so where are the freaking fees I paid on my car tabs for about 3 years??!?!?)

Normally to get to and from where I live (and where my doctor is) to wook (downtown) I take an “express” bus which makes limitied stops which cuts down the time on the “normal” route to about 1/2 an hour each way. Which isn’t bad but it could be improved.

If you don’t have the time in the day to wait around (dogs or babies or something to pick up, etc.) I think that the car is still your quickest option in Seattle- which makes me really sad.

Comment #110: Danica Lefse Queen  on  11/20  at  05:28 PM

Here in Atlanta, I live about two miles from the entrance to my subdivision, a situation which is only made shittier by the stubborn refusal to put in frigging sidewalks anywhere.

Oh, grrr…neighborhoods w/out sidewalks are a HUGE pet peeve of mine.  It always seems like an act of hostility toward the residents—if you can walk around easily, you might meet your neighbors, get to know them, develop a sense of community, and we can’t have that.  Ditto for kids with bikes & big wheels—either play in the street, or get yelled at for riding over everybody’s lawn.

Comment #111: Sour Kraut  on  11/20  at  05:28 PM

oh and as for being able to afford living closer to downtown Seattle- fugeddaboutit.
$350K for a studio condo?

$1,300 a month to RENT one?

Screw that.

Comment #112: Danica Lefse Queen  on  11/20  at  05:30 PM

Nevertheless, I manage to be able to talk about what I would like in a better public transportation system and don’t get all upset about everyone else doing so. I know I do what I do because of my own choices, and somehow I manage not to make excuses for myself. Why is it that people who are constrained by geographic and personal necessity are the ones her complaining about discussions that revolve around, “how can we become less dependent on our cars?”

Tyro,

One of the things I like about this site is that it really emphasizes how much a position of privilege can blind people to the connotations (not denotations!) of what people are saying.

Which is to say that when you, a Driver By Choice, see a lot of comments that seem to imply that people who don’t give up their cars are Defensive, Afraid of Change, Racists, Classists, Attached to Their Car For Purely Egotisical Reasons, or (my personal favorite) are Too Stupid to Teach Math Because They Don’t “Realize” That School Prep Can Be Done On the Bus (a debatable point), then YOU, the Driver By Choice, hears “how can we become less dependent on our cars?”

Whereas I, a Driver By Necessity, sees an awful lot of deliberate misunderstanding about the nature of our own, difficult lives and unhappy “choices” (or lack thereof).

If it is defensive, for example, to point out that some people (particularly older people and small children) really should not be out in 15 degree weather waiting for the bus to arrive, and that an implication that anything less is Seriously Wimpy, then I apologize for my defensiveness. Perhaps my lack of privilege makes me too touchy. :(

Comment #113: Ellen  on  11/20  at  05:31 PM

Lexie, we have that sort of service around here, but I cannot rely on the wait times incurred by it. Disabled or no, I have a schedule at work, I would not be cool with saying I can’t get there on time because of a disability. I try to do as much for myself as I can, since I will not always be in this condition.

And I agree with Ellen on Kate D.‘s posts. It’s great that she can do all of that, and that she’s decided that all the stuff that other people lug around is useless, but she’s obviously some kind of superwoman, and I don’t think we can all be held to her standard. It’s one thing to ride a bike in 30 degrees - that might be refreshing. 15 degrees and I begin to wonder if she’s a masochist.

Comment #114: maurinsky  on  11/20  at  05:33 PM

And, thank you, Lexie - I did not know that. I will have to research that further!

Comment #115: Ellen  on  11/20  at  05:33 PM

I don’t know if anyone has covered this yet, but I solved the grocery problem on my bike by investing in a rack and some panniers. I can now get kitty litter, dog food, laundry soap, and tons of other stuff while on my bicycle. I’ve purchased pillows, new comforters, coffee makers, and lots of other big, bulky items while on my bike. Of course, it helps that I have a generally short commute to the stores where I’d need to buy these things.

Comment #116: Jenny Dreadful  on  11/20  at  05:34 PM

Ellen, I’m not talking about people who have to use a car - and I know some (like my niece and her vulnerable-to-infection infant daughter; like the coworker with a disability).  I’m talking about seeing people JAMMING a stroller onto a crowded bus or train and that stroller is full of stuff and the baby is in arms.  This is on a transit system that has a history of being shitty to chair users and has yet to create enough space to get in and out the doors around them.  Meanwhile, I see other parents get on the bus every day with groceries and babies (the bus stops at a grocery store and then at a series of housing facilities - these are people without cars) or with umbrella strollers, briefcases and daypacks for daycare and take up only the space they need in a considerate fashion.

The too much stuff issue doesn’t have anything to do with your disabilities - in fact, I have assisted friends whose medical needs require a bag of gear including adult incontinence products and have found that they are quite good at taking only what they need because they don’t want to hault too much around. 

The too much stuff issue is part and parcel of the drive everywhere issue.  If people do not usually have to actually, physically carry everything around, they tend to think that they need to take the whole household along in order to go out.  If people are able to walk around but never walk anywhere with their kids besides a mall, they might even believe that their kids can’t walk very far, and continue to put them in a huge multistroller.  This gets to the point of comical when it comes to air travel - people who are not used to having to set priorties or respond to limitations do not respond well to limited space and limited ability to carry things.

Comment #117: Ms Kate  on  11/20  at  05:35 PM

RE: Neighborhoods without sidewalks - developers don’t like them because it adds to the cost of the construction; some residents don’t like them because they are responsible for maintaining/clearing them. Having lived with and without, I would never think about living somewhere that doesn’t have them. Easier and safer.

Comment #118: maurinsky  on  11/20  at  05:37 PM

re: Baby/dog crap: in the sixties, parents didn’t haul 9 cubic feet of crap around with them just to service their goddamn kids/pets.  Something is definitely off there- I think parents got sold a bill of goods as to WHAT is necessary.

Ellen: boo fucking hoo.  Buy a hamster.

Comment #119: Eric, Rejector of Memez  on  11/20  at  05:39 PM

And I agree with Ellen on Kate D.’s posts. It’s great that she can do all of that, and that she’s decided that all the stuff that other people lug around is useless, but she’s obviously some kind of superwoman

Maurinsky, get stuffed.  I’m not superwoman, and that is EXACTLY THE FUCKING POINT.  I carried no more or less stuff than a typical Euromom does when it comes to kids.

Comment #120: Ms Kate  on  11/20  at  05:39 PM

I borrowed my brother’s girlfriend’s truck to move a few months ago, after a year of not driving at all. She was out of town for almost a week and said as long as I didn’t return it with an empty gas tank to feel free to use it. I thought it would be fun to drive again, but honestly, it was BORING. I couldn’t read!

Comment #121: Sarah  on  11/20  at  05:40 PM

Disabled or no, I have a schedule at work, I would not be cool with saying I can’t get there on time because of a disability. I try to do as much for myself as I can…

THIS. Thank you!!

I don’t actively hide my disability, but I really really REALLY hate to bring it up because:

1. I’d prefer not to dwell on it - makes me sad.
2. I’d prefer not to be defined by it - I don’t wanna be a label.
3. A “non-obvious” disability will always sound like an excuse to someone, as in “Well, you LOOK normal, why couldn’t you come in today?”

On my totally immobile days, I just call in “sick” and leave it at that. My boss is good enough to trust my judgment and I am careful to never use more than my alloted sick days. When people ask, I just say “I wasn’t feeling well.”

So, maybe it’s my fault that more people aren’t sensitive to “minor” disabilities. But…damnit, a girl wants a life without a label sometimes.

Comment #122: Ellen  on  11/20  at  05:40 PM

Ellen: boo fucking hoo.  Buy a hamster.

Eric…uh, what?

Comment #123: Ellen  on  11/20  at  05:41 PM

I’ve found that it is actually cheaper to live in downtown San Francisco than it was to live 45 miles north of here in suburbia where the BART train does not reach and public transit bites. Though we had to downsize a bit to find an affordable apartment, rent+MUNI pass is SO much cheaper than suburban rent+car+insurance+car maintenance+gas. It is so much cheaper, in fact, that I was able to quit working and go back to school on a little more than half our previous income without any student loans. Now if I moved outside the SF city boundaries I’d probably feel like I was suffocating - I really don’t see the appeal of seemingly cultureless suburban and rural living.

Comment #124: Sara Pulis  on  11/20  at  05:43 PM

@ellen,

I don’t think anyone means that people shoudn’t be allowed to carry crap around, or to drive their cars.  You have a right to drive your car, or carry as much crap with you as you want. 
But while you might have legitimate reasons to burden yourself with crap (it relieves you from the burden of your disability) other people CHOOSE to burden themselves with crap they don’t need to carry around and then complain about it.  And while some people are in situations where it’s completely necessary to drive a car, some of us choose to drive our cars even though there are other, better options available. 
This is not about telling people that they are being lazy or inconsiderate.  It is about thinking of ways to give people better options for their transportation, and to see that they be made aware of those options, even pushed a little bit to try those other options.

Comment #125: raspberryjamba  on  11/20  at  05:47 PM

Eric…uh, what?

That seems to be in reference to your dog park challenges.

Comment #126: spence-bob  on  11/20  at  05:48 PM

...but the environmentalist in me was hoping to see gas prices stay high until it forced this country to rebuild our infrastructure.—-Marie Marcotte

Well, that’s just great for the poor, isn’t it? With all the caterwalling about how this tax or that tax is “too regressive”, you’d think she’d have some compassion for the most cruel tax of all.

Comment #127: Bob Zimerman  on  11/20  at  05:49 PM

Stupidity isn’t a tax, Bob.

Comment #128: Ms Kate  on  11/20  at  05:51 PM

@ raspberryjamba:

But while you might have legitimate reasons to burden yourself with crap (it relieves you from the burden of your disability) other people CHOOSE to burden themselves with crap they don’t need to carry around and then complain about it.

Hi, raspberryjamba. smile I think my point is just that a lot of people choose their behavior based on good reasons that aren’t obvious to others. It’s easy to make a blanket statment like Ms Kate did (“90% of the crap people haul along with babies is because they CAN not because they need it”) and then excuse everyone who comes along with a valid excuse. (“I didn’t mean you or you or you. Just everyone ELSE.”) One of the “nice” things about having a disability is that you realize that a lot of “normal looking” people who do “stupid” stuff actually have good reasons that we just aren’t clued in on. smile

This is not about telling people that they are being lazy or inconsiderate.  It is about thinking of ways to give people better options for their transportation, and to see that they be made aware of those options, even pushed a little bit to try those other options.

I understand that is meant to be the spirit of the thread, but a lot of the comments in response to Amanda’s post were less than considerate to people who continue to drive by choice / necessity. I was just trying to offer another viewpoint - that yelling at people usually isn’t constructive. For example, I think Amanda’s post was constructive; I think Eric’s post was not. And so on.

Sorry if I didn’t express that very well.

Comment #129: Ellen  on  11/20  at  05:54 PM

Ellen: boo fucking hoo.  Buy a hamster.

Well, I see someone’s getting defensive…

Comment #130: Doug H. (Fausto no more)  on  11/20  at  05:54 PM

That seems to be in reference to your dog park challenges.

I thought so as well, but I would never assume that someone would be so stupid as to misconstrue a post about Why I Carry Stuff That Might Seem Unnecessary To YOU, But Isn’t To Me, So Be Careful How You Judge People You Don’t Know into a post about Puppies Are Hard Work.

So I’m assuming that Eric had some real point that I just….missed.

Comment #131: Ellen  on  11/20  at  05:56 PM

Never owned a car and with the exception of attending college in Northern Ohio, have always lived in areas with good-great public transportation access.  During college, not having a car did suck as the only form of public transportation out of the college town was an expensive airport shuttle or a public bus to/from Cleveland which shut down around 5 pm on weekdays and rarely ran on weekends if at all.  Outside of that, owning a car when there are a plethora of public transportation options and serious parking hassles just wasn’t worth it…especially with skyrocketing car insurance premiums. 

We are a tad avant garde in that we hand our kid a rfid-based fare card and let him loose on buses and subway trains.  He is 12.  He can take his 10 year old brother with him.  This comes in handy when we want them to join us in the city after school time - just jump on the express bus deadheading back into town and meet us on the other end.

Ms. Kate,

Avante garde? Out of curiosity, are most parents in your area with you excepted so overprotective of their pre-teens and teen adolescents that they abhor the idea of letting them loose on public transportation without parental/adult supervision?

Nearly all of the parents in my working class urban neighborhood in 1980’s NYC allowed kids as young as 6 to take the subways to/from school…..and this was during a period when violent street crime on the street and public transportation were far more common than they are now.  By the time we were 12, most of my junior high classmates and I had already been using the subways/buses without adult supervision for at least 2-3 years. 

Never thought anything about it until I entered a private liberal arts college where the majority of the student body were raised in sheltered upper/upper-middle class nearly all-White suburbs.  Upon hearing how my parents allowed me and my classmates to go commute to/from school or go around the city on NYC subways and buses during the 1980s/early 90s without any parental or adult supervision, they were horrified. 

This reaction was magnified with upper/upper-middle class boomer aged co-workers and supervisors who seem to feel they must micromanage the lives of even their 14+ children into their college years and beyond…..and felt my parents and those of my classmates should be condemned for “negligence”. rolleyes

Comment #132: exholt  on  11/20  at  05:58 PM

I live in DC, which has a great train system - if you live in the NW quadrant.  I live in the NW quadrant and my organization’s main office is downtown.  I could go car free if this were the end of the story.  And believe me - I want to go back to my car free days when I lived in Manhattan.

The organization I work for provides assistance to many people who live in the NE and SE quadrants - you know, the lower income parts of town.  To deal with clients and government agencies that serve them require one of two things: (1) a car, or (2) infinite patience and the ability to chain enough bus routes together to get somewhere near where you want to be.  Since my time is valuable, I usually just drive out into NE and SE instead of wasting 1 to 1.5 hours each way commuting.

And driving in DC is the biggest pain in the backside ever.

Comment #133: Richard Goblin  on  11/20  at  05:59 PM

Good grief DAS, do I have to think of everything for you? 
1) get those bracelet anti airsick things - work like a charm
2) ever heard of a clipboard - and an all angle pen? 
3) Backpack - put between feet, one foot on or even through strap.  Grab train strap - read.  I used to live in NYC - you can do academic work on the train/bus whatever - taking 23 credit hours a semester - you figure out things like that - even have a way to make shower time productive.)

ANd, I believe you said something aout a wife earlier?  So, assuming that makes you a husband = male - don’t dare whine to any woman, esp. a mother about having to multi-task in less than ideal conditions - ever try holding a screaming kid and reading Kant for a quiz (having to write the quiz questions?) nad cooking other kid(s) dinner?

Repeat - you are bitter and now I’ll add whiny and lazy and unimaginative - and if your wife won’t move, thus meaning you MUST have a two hour commute - uhm, what was it that relationship was doing for you?

Comment #134: phylosopher  on  11/20  at  06:00 PM

Repeat - you are bitter and now I’ll add whiny and lazy and unimaginative - and if your wife won’t move, thus meaning you MUST have a two hour commute - uhm, what was it that relationship was doing for you?

*cough*

Phylosopher, would you please consider taking raspberryjamba’s superior approach:

This is not about telling people that they are being lazy or inconsiderate.

Comment #135: Ellen  on  11/20  at  06:03 PM

“Very young kids (who are not entirely toilet trained, e.g.) come with lots of stuff.  It’s one thing to have a “go bag” ready, put it in the stroller and head shopping or wherever in a car.  It’s another thing entirely to try and take a bus or subway with a toddler in tow. “

Nah, not necessarily. I took the bus regularly with my under-18-month-old and my 5-year-old. I used a sling to carry the baby—an over-one-shoulder sling when she was smaller and wanted to sleep more, and when she got bigger, heavier and wigglier I used a wrap sling to tie her to my back. The 5-year-old carried the backpack with water bottles for us, sometimes snacks depending, and a couple spare dipes for the baby—I breastfed her, but adding a couple bottles of formula to the backpack wouldn’t have been a big deal.

I often schlepped everyone plus the “go bag” plus a large tote of books to the library and back.

More Americans need to learn about the bliss that is carrying their little ones in hands-free slings, so they can be free of the ridiculous dragging around of giant strollers and always having their hands full when they want to shop or whatever. The stroller dependency of most Americans I see is just as ridiculous as the car dependency.

Comment #136: Kristin  on  11/20  at  06:04 PM

@MsKate
Yeah, the plane thing ALWAYS gets me.  I am forced to carry a heavy carry-on item every time I fly, because it is a delicate musical instrument.  If I could (and when I can) I fly with NOTHING!  God, nothing would delight me more than getting on the plane last, knowing that I won’t have to scavenge for over-head compartment space, worry about it shifting in flight, and not have to schlep my stuff through a big airport, hurting my knees in the process.
And yet, I see these people, with their huge carry-ons where they clearly have just clothes, or all these HUGE airport shopping bags, and they just CHOOSE to appropriate as much space as legally possible, and schlep all this crap with them wherever.  And I am not making assumptions, these are my family and friends I am talking about!  Yeah, bad travelers are a pet peeve.

So Ellen, I view people like you as people who MUST drive, and other people, who are driving for the hell of it, as people who are unecessarily wasting space and resources, and thus, making things more difficult for you, and, in the grand scheme of things, for all of us.

Comment #137: raspberryjamba  on  11/20  at  06:06 PM

Welcome Fellow Supewoman Kristin!  We are the only two mothers in the world that make our kids walk and carry stuff.  We are really special!

Comment #138: Ms Kate  on  11/20  at  06:08 PM

Its kinda sad that I can agree mostly with Amanda, only to see the noticeable levels of smug in the comments and crap like this:

Repeat - you are bitter and now I’ll add whiny and lazy and unimaginative - and if your wife won’t move, thus meaning you MUST have a two hour commute - uhm, what was it that relationship was doing for you?

Are you here to convince people of your argument, or are you here to be an asshole?  ‘cause I’m seeing not much of the former and too much of the latter.  And here I thought taking the bus was more relaxing.

Comment #139: Doug H. (Fausto no more)  on  11/20  at  06:09 PM

My, what a delightful thread.

Comment #140: Em  on  11/20  at  06:10 PM

making things more difficult for you

We ran up against this when our small organization moved into the central downtown area from a peripheral area of the city.  While the vast majority of us have enormously better transit options - and variety of choices - for getting to work, we do have at least one person in Ellen’s shoes who fares much worse because she now has to navigate the clusterfuck that is downtown Boston traffic.  She gets valet parking in the building garage, but that doesn’t give her back the additional 30-40 minutes of commute time each day dealing with the last couple of miles of driving.  If fewer able-bodied people would or could stop driving into the city, like happened at the worst of $4/gallon gasoline, her life would be a lot easier.

Comment #141: Ms Kate  on  11/20  at  06:16 PM

oops - if MORE temporarily abled people could or would stop driving ...

Comment #142: Ms Kate  on  11/20  at  06:18 PM

Ellen: boo fucking hoo.  Buy a hamster

Yeah…People with disabilities aren’t entitled to pets like us normals. ::roll::

Eric, you’re a shitty person, and you will be even if you bike everywhere, every day, for the rest of time. Fuck you and your fixie.

Comment #143: Well, what?  on  11/20  at  06:20 PM

More Americans need to learn about the bliss that is carrying their little ones in hands-free slings, so they can be free of the ridiculous dragging around of giant strollers and always having their hands full when they want to shop or whatever. The stroller dependency of most Americans I see is just as ridiculous as the car dependency.

This is one where I will actually jump in and point something out.

I, for example, have a two-year-old.  Whenever she was a very small baby I carried her around in a sling (the same as I did with my son when he was little).  I cannot carry her anymore, and have not been able to carry her regularly since she got too heavy (probably around a year or so), because I have a debilitating back problem (a disk in my spine ruptured a few years ago and, while surgically repaired, still is prone to randomly render my lower back and right leg useless balls of pain suckage).  This means that, if I bend in the wrong position, carry something too heavy, or if the Moon is in Scorpio for all the warning I get sometimes, it will feel as if someone stuck a shiv in the middle of the scar on my back.  I’ve been stuck on the floor for several hours unable to move because of this pain, and, actually, have had to take two days off this week because I could barely walk from room to room.  Whenever I am not in this kind of pain I walk normally, if not faster than most people.  If I could carry my daugher I would (and usually she walks around with a backpack-leash, but children that little get tired if they walk around for too long).  True, I could force her to walk around literally nonstop, but that would mean dragging her around by her arm when she won’t walk, which bends me to an awkward angle, so on and so forth.  Make whatever reason you will; it doesn’t fit me.

It’s all well and good for some people, but I’m with Ellen in that this thread is taking what was first a subtle and now is a nasty turn towards being ableist - and I don’t even think of myself as disabled, even though I technically am.  Let’s stop being assholes to each other now, kthx?  I am more than capable of understanding the distinction between people who choose and people who have to drive or use a stroller or whatever else the beef is here, but there is still a lot of untoward hostility here directed at people who are gently saying, “But not everyone fits your scenario.” 

I am not saying that the person who I quoted here is one of the people engaged in that so much as pointing that out as an example of one where not everyone is equally capable.

Comment #144: Atheist Feminazi  on  11/20  at  06:20 PM

Exholt—times are different now than they were. People used to let their pre-teens or even children walk to school or take public transit, but sometime in the early 90’s that decreased dramatically. I’m not going to point fingers, I suspect it has something to do with the rise of “OMG PREDATORS” stories in the news that made people feel that their children simply were not safe walking the half mile to and from school every day.

Comment #145: Mighty Ponygirl  on  11/20  at  06:21 PM

My haul: Twin toddlers, double stroller (necessary with twins when I ride transit because I have to walk with them for several blocks. I’m not superwoman and can’t sling 2 for a mile. They are about 35 lbs. each now.) Diaper bag, white cane.

Not sure where I fall on the superwoman/haul unnecessary crap spectrum. I carry as little as possible, but have not found a way to carry less.

Comment #146: Lexie  on  11/20  at  06:22 PM

Hi Ellen!  smile  How’s the boyfriend?

@phylosopher:  Harsh, much?  Some people DO get sick!  And some people DO sacrifice some of their quality of life so their spouses can keep their jobs and their families can be stable!  I’ve done some of the stuff you mention myself, but not everyone has the same abilities. 

It’s a strange thing.  It’s like living in a small town with a limited supply of water, where if everyone takes what they need, and there should be plenty.  Then, somebody who legitimately needs more water than usual takes as much as they need, and this makes the neighbor take the same amount out of greed, or get pissed at them for taking more, for not economizing.  Suddenly, everybody is taking too much and screwing up the supply for everyone, those who needed very little as much as those who needed a lot.  I think this is called the tragedy of the commons, I’m not sure where I read it.

Comment #147: raspberryjamba  on  11/20  at  06:26 PM

Mightypony, I think the countertrend of cellular phones has started to turn that around.

There are some people in our community who are over protective, and others who are just bizarrly parochial and have never spent much time outside of our inner-suburban city.  That seems to be a Boston area disease of “hometown = entire world”.  They will tell horror stories that date from the 70s, or bring up news items from vastly different areas of the city as though it had much to do with a kid taking a commuter bus into the city to meet a parent directly at the stop or taking a bus full of college students headed for Tufts, or grabbing a ride home from the mall next to the junior high.  Meanwhile, it’s okay that the school buses are horribly overcrowded in the afternoons and thus effectively unsupervised.  Either that, or the total overprotectives will drive their kids all over town out of fear of any bus ...

My son bikes to school, too, but not as much as he used to when I would go with him and then continue on my regular commute.  High school will be easier - he can get there without touching the pavement until he hits the back parking lot.

Comment #148: Ms Kate  on  11/20  at  06:28 PM

Ouch.

I think we can all make a distinction between those people who MUST drive, MUST carry extra supplies for whatever reason, and those who drive although it’s not necessary, and carry too many supplies that are not needed.

If you have a good reason to drive, I really don’t think the public transportation advocates are referring to you. 

Personally, I’ve seen people with no good reason to drive (not making assumptions here - talking about people I know personally)- drive, and shun public transportation.  They have the option not to drive, but they choose to do so for selfish reasons.  *They* bug me.  Just as those Moms who bring bulky strollers and two day’s changes of clothes or whatever on a bus bug me.  Yes, if you are healthy and able, and your children is good health and able, there is a very good reason to carefully examine your habits to determine if you are bringing too much stuff along.  I lived in NYC for years, and there were parents who had fold up carriages, a backpack, and a kid or two in tow.  It worked out fine.

And no, I’m not talking about people who have a GOOD reason, whatever it is, to not be able to use public transportation to the fullest extent. I’m talking about people who take their car to pick up some milk at the grocery story five blocks away, for crying out loud.  A little advance planning would save us all a lot of pain.  AND it would free up roads and reduce the cost for those who NEED to drive for a good reason.

Comment #149: melaka  on  11/20  at  06:29 PM

I live in one of most public-transportation heavy areas in the country (the NYC area) ... yet I still use my car to get to and from work.  Why?  Well, my wife has long lived in Queens and worked in NYC itself, so we are not keen to move from her place.  OTOH, I have a job in NJ.  To take public transportation to work involves me taking a bus to a subway to a bus.  And that last bus only leaves to my workplace once every hour or so.  So unless I get up super-duper early, I risk missing the bus and being late to teach class.

Uhhh, yeah, dude, welcome to the lives of the other 8 million people who live and work in New York.  I live in Brooklyn about a 15 minute walk to the nearest subway into Manhattan.  I work on 11th Avenue in Manhattan.  I This means that I have to walk half a mile, take a train, and then take a bus to the office.  If there is a bus, of course—the cross-town only comes by in that direction every 20-30 minutes at that time of day.  I have to get up super-duper early to be at work on time because of the triple-threat commute. 

But then, you know, I can’t afford a car, so them’s the breaks.  If the threats to raise subway fares to $3 or and/or drastically cut service really come true, it will get even worse, and I’ll probably end up riding a bike the 5-10 miles each way.

This is why I tend to laugh at the people who simply “can’t” drive less.  Unless you have a disability which prevents you from walking or riding a bike, yes, you can drive less.  There are probably plenty of people who live near you who drive less than you do, out of necessity.

Comment #150: The Opoponax  on  11/20  at  06:29 PM

INTPagan, I agree—just as some people seriously need to drive, some people need strollers for their kids (another good example would be my acquaintance with an infant daughter who used an oxygen tank—she needed to be able to put the baby’s oxygen tank in her stroller and couldn’t have schlepped baby, go bag, tank and all).

The problem is that ablebodied people have been sold a bill of goods about strollers and huge diaper bags being necessary, all the time, as the default, just as people have been sold the same bill of goods about their cars. I would like to see people examining and deconstructing that idea and figuring out what is really necessary *for them* and what isn’t.

Comment #151: Kristin  on  11/20  at  06:30 PM

3) Backpack - put between feet, one foot on or even through strap.  Grab train strap - read.  I used to live in NYC - you can do academic work on the train/bus whatever

Which part of NYC did you live and when???

Though I am more likely to read on the subway or zone out listening to my ipod nowadays, there’s no way in hell I would have even considered doing that back in the 1980s NYC when that could leave one open to potential muggings or beatings by rowdy violent adolescents/young adults out for money and/or the seeming sheer joy of beating others up….especially when reading a book marks one out to such assholes as a “nerd/geek looking to get beaten”.

Comment #152: exholt  on  11/20  at  06:32 PM

and if your wife won’t move, thus meaning you MUST have a two hour commute - uhm, what was it that relationship was doing for you?

Oh! I didn’t realize that marriage existed principally to facilitate commutes. Is THAT what the LGBT community is het up about? rolleyes

Comment #153: Well, what?  on  11/20  at  06:32 PM

Mighty Ponygirl, when I was seven I had someone try to grab me on a playground in our apartments, but I kicked and screamed my way free and he got away.

I also lived next door to Amber Hagerman’s mother when I was a teenager.

I understand your point, and I do think some parents are overprotective of their kids, but, having seen situations that run contrary to your statement that abduction is rare enough not to gain notice (I am aware that something like one Amber Alert a week is small in an area as large as DFW, but what if it’s your kid?), I’m not going to criticize parents for not being willing to take that risk.

Comment #154: Atheist Feminazi  on  11/20  at  06:36 PM

Lexie, you sound like the regular transit using parents I see all the time.  The people who have learned that less is more.

I scratch my head when I see a very large stroller (or gigantasaurus double stroller with an older kid on board) with a very large diaper bag, a separate bag of toys, a large handbag for the parent, a lunch cooler, and an adult struggling with the load, all for a day trip to the Children’s Museum or Aquarium.  I wonder if it is inexperience with non-car travel or never having to had to prioritize or set limits on how much stuff comes along.

Comment #155: Ms Kate  on  11/20  at  06:40 PM

Hi, raspberryjamba! smile The BF is fine - we had a good talk like everyone suggested and I think that helped enormously. Time will tell. *hopes*

So Ellen, I view people like you as people who MUST drive, and other people, who are driving for the hell of it, as people who are unecessarily wasting space and resources, and thus, making things more difficult for you, and, in the grand scheme of things, for all of us.

May I just say that I agree with you 100% here, RJ. My point was only that it’s really really difficult to parse out the Disableds from the Normals. My own symptoms are very similar to INTPagan’s (though with a different cause) and I’m willing to bet dollars to donuts that she looks as “normal” as anyone else. I think the prevailing attitude is sometimes that 90% of people are the Wasters, when I suspect that it’s much, much lower than that (40% would be my guess).

Just because it IS a sucky world and there are so MANY ways to be screwed into needing a car.

Comment #156: Ellen  on  11/20  at  06:40 PM

If you have a good reason to drive, I really don’t think the public transportation advocates are referring to you.

...Until some of the more rabid commenters start saying that they wish it was harder / more painful / impossibly expensive to drive and you realize that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Seriously, life sucks bad enough with a disability without having to be reminded of it every day with a $40 a day gasoline bill that you didn’t want in the first place. I understand that the intent of these comments is (generally) 100% good, green, earth-loving kindness, but the whole idea behind Privilege is that you aren’t aware of it.

I’m just trying to make people aware of the fact that sometimes really nice words sound different to people who don’t share your set of upbringing / privileges / etc.

And, yeah, raspberryjamba, it IS called the Tragedy of the Commons. Good analogy.

Comment #157: Ellen  on  11/20  at  06:46 PM

Thank you, Kristin; I can agree with that.

I will admit that I did carry around a great deal when I was in Missoula, but part of that was the fact that I went to the library regularly and generally had to start out the day in heavy winter gear and then end it in less (dumping a heavy coat for both of us on the stroller while we wore heavy-ish jackets, so on and so forth), I went grocery shopping with it (later in winter when my car was broken down and I had no other means of transportation other than the stroller and the bus).

Addressing the whole thread:

::shrugs::  I just try not to make assumptions about why people are doing things because you never know what hidden reason might be (not everyone who is homeless looks raggedy, not everyone who is disabled may have crutches, a wheelchair, or even a visible limp) behind their methods.  Nine out of ten people who are lugging strollers and massive totes may be carrying superfluous gear, but one out of those ten may look like everyone else and be different.  Nine out of ten people who are driving may be doing it because it’s more convenient, but one out of those ten may be doing it for other, personal reasons.  I think it’s easy to miss this in the course of it, and I’m really disappointed by the turn this thread has taken on the whole because this is supposed to be about being inclusive - making it easier for everyone to have access to public transportation.  Suddenly it’s turned into a way for people who may have an optimal situation to mock or put down people who don’t.  It’s pissing me off because I expect more from the people here.

Comment #158: Atheist Feminazi  on  11/20  at  06:46 PM

Ellen—with all due respect to your disability, don’t you feel that this is a bit of apples/oranges? When we talk about the difference of carting stuff around that a person needs versus what a person has convinced themselves they need?

If your disabilities make biking, or walking, or taking public transit an impossibility, then there’s nothing to be done about that.

But if you’re saying “well, I can’t do these things because I Have Kids/I Buy Groceries/I Don’t Live Downtown” then you could stand a more critical examination of these excuses because people make this work for them every day without a car. And if you just live at the ass-end of a sidewalk-less exurb with 5 children and moving is out of the question then you can look for other ways to reduce your driving, like only making one trip to the grocery store a week, or looking into a carpooling program with other parents on your block to get those kids to school every day.

The point is we should all try. My husband tried carpooling in to work instead of making the drive but the schedules were just too different (dude liked to arrive super-duper-early and was out right away where husband only wanted to arrive super-early and often stays later). We’ve looked for busses and other public transit solutions and there aren’t any. But we can at least say “we tried” instead of just waving our hands and having a contest to see how quickly we can whip out our excuses.

Comment #159: Mighty Ponygirl  on  11/20  at  06:46 PM

having seen situations that run contrary to your statement that abduction is rare enough not to gain notice

Where the fuck did I say this?

Comment #160: Mighty Ponygirl  on  11/20  at  06:50 PM

I apologize; I meant “your insinuation.,” contained in:

I suspect it has something to do with the rise of “OMG PREDATORS” stories in the news that made people feel that their children simply were not safe walking the half mile to and from school every day.

There are some places where this really isn’t safe.  Again, I’m telling you not to judge parents who don’t want to take that risk.  It’s one thing if they won’t let their kids have lives and friends, but it’s another if they live in a neighborhood where it just might be a bad idea to let them walk to school, or take the bus, or take the train.

Comment #161: Atheist Feminazi  on  11/20  at  06:54 PM

Exholt—times are different now than they were. People used to let their pre-teens or even children walk to school or take public transit, but sometime in the early 90’s that decreased dramatically. I’m not going to point fingers, I suspect it has something to do with the rise of “OMG PREDATORS” stories in the news that made people feel that their children simply were not safe walking the half mile to and from school every day.

Mighty Ponygirl,

Obviously you missed the part when I mentioned that the parents of my classmates and I allowed us to use the subways/buses unsupervised during a time period when actual violent crime such as muggings, beatings, and armed robberies were far higher than it is now not only in the news, but also in our personal experiences. 

As someone who grew up in NYC during the 1980s-early 90s, and has moved back in 2004, the level of violent crime experienced and perceived by most friends and co-workers is far below what I experienced and remember from my childhood/early adolescence. 

Moreover, I don’t see this same level of parental reluctance in allowing their children to take public transit in NYC except among some in the wealthy Upper East Side set.  I still see children 12 and younger routinely taking the subways and buses without parental/adult supervision in many parts of the city.  The vast majority of overprotective parents of this type I keep reading about and interacting with tends overwhelmingly to be upper/upper-middle class boomer-aged parents living in mostly/all-White suburbs. 

Though I agree there is a perception factor of high kidnappings, I believe much more of this is rooted in socio-economic class privilege/anxiety along with those parents’ perception that even 14+ adolescents and young adults need to be micromanaged because they are completely incapable of learning/taking care of themselves without parental/adult prompting. 

Shorter them:  Those poor dirty skeevy urbanites (key in racial and class dogwhistles) are such a *shudder* threat to our darling kid/adolescent/adult that public transportation is out of the question *sniff* *lifts nose 45+ degrees in the air*.

Comment #162: exholt  on  11/20  at  06:58 PM

There are some places where this really isn’t safe.

When some other parents questioned whether we should be letting our kids freely roam the neighborhood - a very low traffic area with clear boundaries - or walk in the woods on their own, my husband pulled out the statistics on abductions.

50 per year, about 1 every TWO YEARS in our state.

Comment #163: Ms Kate  on  11/20  at  07:05 PM

Which is to say that when you, a Driver By Choice, see a lot of comments that seem to imply that people who don’t give up their cars are Defensive,

You are being defensive because you’re upset that our conversation doesn’t include you. And that’s true—it doesn’t. This isn’t a conversation about people who have to have a car because they have no other option. This is a conversation about people who want to live in places with better transportation infrastructure. This is a conversation about how people who can’t drive or would just prefer not to can advocate for improving their lives and their options. I am dreadfully sorry that this conversation does not apply to you, but that’s no reason to get upset at the rest of us for having it. No one cares a whit that you have to drive, and there’s no need for you to get all defensive about your peculiar situation. But the rest of us are trying to talk about what we can do to drive less and how we can make it easier for ourselves to drive less. It doesn’t really matter to me at all that you can’t drive less, and I really have to wonder why it’s so important for you to remind everyone of this—you’re not special… you’re driving every day just like just about everyone else in America.

Comment #164: Tyro  on  11/20  at  07:06 PM

Greetings from the land of proper public transportation,

Hi. I’m a brit who lives just outside London.

I lived in the london suburbs 4 years without a car (and one using a car only on weekends) and now live outside london and only use the car to commute 10 minutes to the train station every day (my girlfrind then takes it on to her work, another 10 minutes away).

It’s great. Everywhere in the city and suburbs is…... cheaper to get on public transport….... quicker to get to on public transport….... easier to get to on public transport…..... and much more relaxing to get to on public transport. Even in the ‘exurbs’ it’s cheaper and more relaxing (if not quicker and easier)

London has 3 levels of train (light rail, underground, overland), frequent (every 5-10min) bus routes all over the capital….....it’s not uncommon to see 4 or 5 different buses, on different routes, on a long street at once (used by the middle class btw)............. bicycle lanes, proper pedestrian signage and sidewalk.

It’s not perfect, but hey, when I read americans talking about public transport your system (particularly requiring car only exurbs) sounds amazingly bad, if not nonexistent in a lot of areas.

All I can say is…....... when you get there it’s worth it.

I have 1 hour on the train, each way, each day (from one side of london to the other…..... a 2 hour each way car journey). I usually snooze for the early commute, something you can’t do in the car and something that allows me more time before bed in the evenings. I then get a good hours read (and a bit of surfing on my internet phone) on the hour home.

Basically, it turns those 2 hours a day from “2 hours of work” to “2 hours of me time”.

I think it is REALLY important to push that, as amanda suggests.

Not only is it cheaper, healthier, more evinronmentally friendly, all that good stuff….......... it like taking a new job that pays you the same for 2 hours less work each day !!!!!

Think of the benefit of that ? What is the actual, real, dollar and cents, value to you of 2 extra hours of “you time” a day every weekday ? 000’s of dollars ? You are getting that thousands of dollars “bonus” simply by taking a cheaper way to work !

This has to be pushed as real, concrete, important advantage. Public transport (properly done) is not a sacrifice…...... it’s a humungously good deal, in dollar and cents terms…...... and some economists should be working on ‘giving you a dollar figure for that’.

Businesses “Add Value”.......... Crunch the numbers of the “Added Value” of public transport, including these hidden factors, and the whole notion of it becomes a steal. Perhaps more importantly…..... it becomes easier to sell to skeptics.

This should be an important plank of ‘selling’ public transportation. Who doesn’t want an extra hour or two a day of reading time (or i-pod time or internet time) in return of (in effect) a pay rise !

Yours,

TGP

Comment #165: TGP  on  11/20  at  07:06 PM

INTPagan—If you feel that your children aren’t safe walking to school, that they could be killed or kidnapped or mugged, you’re free to pack them into your car and drive them back and forth everyday.

But, if you’re a decent human being, you’ll look at your neighbor’s children—the ones who make the walk every day because their parent doesn’t love them enough to drive them to school and make sure they arrive unabducted—and realize that the solution to the problem—the REAL solution might be something like lobbying for a local bus stop or more crossing guards in the area.

Our first reaction is “well, we’ll just drive.” Our first reactions are not always the best reaction.

Comment #166: Mighty Ponygirl  on  11/20  at  07:07 PM

I see lots of people taking their tiny children, in strollers, onto the trains in Boston in the mornings.  The strollers are small and collapsible, the infants/tots sit upright.  The stroller has a “footprint” about 2 feet all around, even less than an adult standing up.  A small bag—often an ordinary plastic shopping bag—hangs from the handles.  By the time children are 3, 4, or 5, they are walking with their parents (holding hands, of course) and riding the subway either in their parent’s lap or in a seat of their own.  (I have never seen an elderly person, tiny child, pregnant woman, or obviously disabled person standing on MBTA, because someone has always offered them their seat).  It is a little hard getting a stroller up onto a bus, but if the caretaker couldn’t lift the stroller up, either someone would help or the driver would lower the wheelchair lift.

Of course, these tiny children are generally not white.  When I saw tiny white children, they would sometimes (not always) be in giant, SUV behemoths of strollers—3 feet wide and 4 feet long.  You can’t wrangle those onto public transit, not without getting some evil eyes from your fellow riders.

My sociological conclusion:  Infants of color, getting on the train at unfashionable stops, require less crap and are therefore more portable than white infants of similar size.

Comment #167: MsAnon  on  11/20  at  07:08 PM

@ TGP,
That’s brilliant. And also, I read your whole post with a London accent in my head.

@ellen,
Well, that’s the thing.  You can’t parse the Disableds from the Normals, but that should be OK.  If there is enough information available, we should be able to parse ourselves!  It would be awful to have to live such a harshly regulated life.  Imagine if you had to make excuses everytime you turn up your thermostat or drive to the grocery store or eat at McDonald’s.  It can get really dystopic really fast.

Hey, does anyone know if there are any limitations like, if I buy a bus, paint the side of it so it advertises my route, and just charge people $1, or 50 cents for the ride, would that be an illegal business?  A huge potential liability?  Sometimes I felt that if this was permitted, LA wouldn’t need as many cars as it does.  I imagined this little buses driving up and own Figueroa, Jefferson, MLK Blvd., Pico, Sunset Blvd., all the big roads.  Then you could just pick and make your route.  Smaller buses too, that way the wait wouldn’t be so long.  I bet every town could implement something like this with minimum resources. 

I’ve tried to post the comment a couple of times, I hope it doesn’t show up repeatedly.  If yes, sorry!

Comment #168: raspberryjamba  on  11/20  at  07:12 PM

But, if you’re a decent human being, you’ll look at your neighbor’s children—the ones who make the walk every day because their parent doesn’t love them enough to drive them to school and make sure they arrive unabducted—and realize that the solution to the problem—the REAL solution might be something like lobbying for a local bus stop or more crossing guards in the area.

You should also, why you are at it, buy them a pony.

One that poops rainbows.

INTPagan, why are you such a terrible person? Why can’t you be willing to judge parents as over-protective helicopter parents based on casual interactions with them? Geez. smile

Comment #169: Ellen  on  11/20  at  07:12 PM

I could be wrong, of course. It could be that most of America is populated by disabled people in rural areas whose disabilities, rather than preventing them from driving, are ones that require them to drive. In that case, I can see how it would be pretty difficult to discuss ways to encourage more people to use public transport. In addition, I could have blithely assumed that we’re talking about how we can encourage more public transit, rather than the reality which is that we’re discussing how we can confiscate everyone’s cars, prevent them from driving, and force those last holdouts who insist to where scarlet D’s on their chests. However, in my experience, America is not primarily populated by disabled people from the rural countryside. Also, if I have read this thread correctly, I believe most of us are talking from the perspective of people who live in metro areas, inner ring suburbs, and exurbs, rather than rural areas and how we can improve transportation, rather than about how we can punish car-drivers (who, in any case, would find their drives much easier if more people were off the road). Thus, I consider it fair to think that maybe there is some headway to be made in terms of how we can encourage public transit infrastructure and foster greater use of public transit and that the topic warrants greater discussion.

Comment #170: Tyro  on  11/20  at  07:16 PM

$4.50 was enough to push me to get out my bike. Luckily I’m within walking distance of my job and the grocery store, so I don’t need to drive more than a couple days a week. I was surprised to see a lot of people with motorized bicycles in my small home town in rural OR.

I live out of state now, and 50% (conservatively) of our morning freeway traffic jam is parents driving their kids to private school. *shakes fist*

Comment #171: banisteriopsis  on  11/20  at  07:19 PM

Uhhh, yeah, dude, welcome to the lives of the other 8 million people who live and work in New York.

The Opoponax,

Except DAS has clearly stated he works in NJ….not NYC. 

Having ridden NJ transit buses and trains in different areas…..they are great in getting one to certain suburbs…especially wealthy ones where some relatives live…..and horrid in getting one to other areas without excess hassles…especially when one needs to commute to/from school or work. 

Unlike NYC where one can take public transit, bike, or walk without many issues, there are many NJ towns and areas where if NJ Transit hiccups or there is no coverage…..you’d better be comfortable taking 1.5-4 mile walks to get to where you want to go if you have no access to a car.  That may work for someone as healthy and inclined to taking long strolls even in 90+ degree/below 20 degree weather on a routine basis for fun.  However, I know this would not work for most people…especially those who need to work 10+ hours a day 5+ days/week.

Comment #172: exholt  on  11/20  at  07:20 PM

Ellen—look, either the walk is safe or it isn’t. If it’s not safe and you need to personally escort your children to school everyday but you’re fine with other kids getting abducted or killed, then you’re an asshole, plain and simple. If you can find the time to play personal chauffeur to your children at 8am and 3pm to make sure they arrive to and from school safely, then you have the time to go to the schoolboard and say “hey, you know, it would be really nice if we could get an extra crossing guard or two in the area, or if the schoolbus could swing by and pick up the kids so that they wouldn’t have to make that walk which is dangerous.”

Hell, if you have that kind of time to personally escort your kids to and from school, you could, I dunno, volunteer to be the crossing guard.

Or, OR, you could make a bunch of snarky comments that any suggestion that you might want to take meaningful action to address the root cause of the perceived danger instead of just making sure that your kids are safe and fuck everyone else is being an unrealistic ass. Because FUCK YOU THAT’S WHY.

Comment #173: Mighty Ponygirl  on  11/20  at  07:22 PM

Tyro, I feel that your last post touches on what I, myself, believe - that many / most people drive by necessity not by choice.

Rather than encouraging people to give up their cars because it’s so much fun (which is a fine argument, but one that will have zero affect on necessity drivers), I think the best solution (and one I am 0 in favor of) is to push, push, PUSH for better public transportation, and with easy-to-access spots for people with disabilities and other considerations.

If a “bus” could drive to my cross-street, pick up myself, and all the other disableds on the block, plus the small children and older people with less mobility, and take us TO the “bus stop”, why we’d be tickled pink and much happier without that dratted gas bill.

How can we do this? I want. smile

Comment #174: Ellen  on  11/20  at  07:22 PM

Fellow Twin Citian here.

I live in Minneapolis, and work in a St. Paul suburb. By car, my commute takes about 25 minutes. By bus, it takes over two hours with three transfers. In other words, my commute would be the equivalent of a second half time job. No thanks. Even when gas prices were astronomical, it wasn’t worth it.

Thankfully, I have a friend who works in the same place and lives ten minutes away from me. (Hi, Ananael Qaa!) We carpool whenever our schedules permit, which is most of the time.

Comment #175: maatnofret  on  11/20  at  07:23 PM

Mighty Ponygirl,

I have no beef with you, but it very much wasn’t cool for you to take INTPagan’s “Eh, I don’t judge parents who don’t let their kids go to school without supervision, because, hey there is SOME risk, and it’s their choice to make” with your bombastic, “well, why don’t you do something to fix society instead of being a knee-jerk DRIVER”.

INTPagan’s post was not to provide commentary on how likely / unlikely that violence is - just to reaffirm that it is a parent’s CHOICE what risks to take and which not to.

And isn’t choice what being a liberal is all about? So peace - I didn’t mean to piss you off.

Comment #176: Ellen  on  11/20  at  07:25 PM

I’ve been thinking alot about these issues lately as I recently moved from a small city where I drove everywhere, most of the time, because I loved the freedom my car gave me, and because most of my other options -  buses or walking - took more time than I felt I could spare.  Now I’m living in a much larger city outside of the US, and fortunately for me near the center where I have lots and lots of buses and taxis to choose from, all reasonably priced.  And I have no car, so I walk or bus everywhere, with my kids - who are no longer toddlers, which makes this even easier than when I lived in Chicago with an infant/toddler.  We shop not quite daily, but almost as we are limited to what we can carry. I’m in great shape, the kids are too, and we have gotten to know our environment pretty well.  For two months or so I almost strained a shoulder regularly patting myself on the back for being car free. 

And then one day I snapped - and I will cop to missing my car.  And I drove a really big ass, gas guzzling SUV.  I really want it back.  Bad.  If I could get it back I would in an instant.  And I’d start driving it too - shop less frequently and in bigger loads, drive to school in ten minutes rather than bus or walk in 25. Not every day - but a lot of days.  I know that given some of the urban commute times people have talked about, and that I’ve had in the past, these are both ridiculously tiny amounts of travel time.  But - it’s my time.  And I value that too.  What does that 30 minutes buy me?  Time of my own not spent in transit someplace.  With a car, I’d also be able to visit friends/shlepp my kids to their new friends who don’t live on bus lines, get *out* of the city regularly, which without a car is really hard to do here.  I even started fantasizing about trying to buy a car -but that isn’t going to happen.

So - what’s the upshot of this?  I don’t know - except that this experience is causing me to let go of whatever thoughts I had about how clear cut some of these choices are.

Comment #177: nell  on  11/20  at  07:26 PM

The Netherlands public transportation is almost seamlessly perfect.  Miss a train?  No problem - it just gives you time for coffee before the next train comes.  Want to go from the airport to the train?  No problem - the train station is in the airport.  Want to catch a bus from the train station?  No problem - that’s where the bus station is - plus a choice of bike rentals and car share systems. 

Sure do wish it could even come close to this in North America - it would be a lot easier to visit family if public transportation was good, or even OK.  But, living here I let my drivers license expire because there’s 0 need for a car.

Comment #178: Margaret  on  11/20  at  07:26 PM

To be fair riding the bus is much more of a problem for women too. I don’t know a single girl who doesn’t have half a dozen stories about creepy guys on or near the bus stop.

Comment #179: banisteriopsis  on  11/20  at  07:30 PM

Nine out of ten people who are driving may be doing it because it’s more convenient, but one out of those ten may be doing it for other, personal reasons.

So what? Is our entire concept of policymaking supposed to be based on how best not to offend the precious sensibilities of the 1 out of 10? I feel comfortable making generalizations that go something like “most people” or “many people,” because they tend to be true. Yes, there are exceptions, but they’re just that—exceptions. The fact that someone’s ego might be bruised because I didn’t include them within that generalization doesn’t really bother me. I’m sure the 1 out of 10 people doing whatever they’re doing for important personal reasons has enough to deal with without worrying about whether I’m hurting their feelings for discussing what’s wrong with the other 9 out of 10.

I carried no more or less stuff than a typical Euromom does when it comes to kids.

The Euromom I know best bicycles around Amsterdam with he two kids while pregnant. She says that this isn’t a problem and that, in fact, it’s a lot easier than walking while pregnant. However, I cannot imagine a single American mom ever putting up with this.

Comment #180: Tyro  on  11/20  at  07:30 PM

I really think you’re attacking the wrong people here—people who are open to public transportation, who even want public transportation and would support programs put in place, but who find that in their own lives it is not worth it.  There’s plenty more people who are openly hostile and who still think that driving is awesome, SUVs are the best cars ever, and that living in the exurbs is great because you get “more house for your money” (i meet people like this all the time).

I would love to use public transportation and live in a place where it’s is actually good, where development is truly mixed so that housing, grocery stores, recreation, and restaurants, are all interspersed nicely as you find it in New York or European cities.  That would be my dream come true.  I really enjoy vacationing in places like this and not having to deal with driving.  Unfortunately living in these places is beyond my means at this point.

Subways/trains are also 100000x better than buses, because they run much faster and are not affected by traffic, whereas buses have to stop at every light and get stuck in traffic just like cars, even more so because they are slow moving behemoths who have to stay in the right lane.  Also, subway/train stations tend to be underground or at least enclosed so you don’t have to be exposed to the elements and actually have a place to sit.  (Many bus stations in our pathetic bus system here are just poles with a number on them.  Not even a bench). 

I worked a convention in Atlanta and absolutely loved the MARTA rail from the airport to my downtown hotel to the GWCC and several nice eating establishments and attractions within walking distance.  It was clean, ran pretty often, and was not overly crowded.  But I’m totally aware that this service is really limited and I just happened to be in one of the places where it was most useful.

I used to live in Austin near Riverside.  I had a downtown job one summer and attempted to take the bus because the parking was too expensive.  Keep in mind that this was less than a 10 minute drive.  It took more like 45 minutes for me to get there.  Oftentimes, I would end up walking half the way than sit at the bus stop waiting for the next bus which was rare in coming.  Or I would beg my boyfriend to drive me.  Not only that but had to deal with various mentally ill people including a guy who was getting high at the bus stop.  Later I got a job at UT, which could have been awesome because of the shuttle service directly there, but I had to be to work at 7 am and the shuttle did not run early enough to get me there on time. 

Now I live in DFW and while DART rail is supposedly nice if you live in certain suburbs and are commuting downtown, if you work in one of the other highly popular business areas such as Las Colinas, Addison, or Richardson, you are SOL.  I live about 9 miles from work, and sure I could ride my bike, but I am not coming to work covered in sweat and smelling to high heaven.  I had a cousin that did this, but he had a shower at his office.  I don’t.  Also, he lived in a city that wasn’t over 90 degrees for what seems like most of the year.

I wish we could find the Billion$ that we’re going to use to bail out corporations to build a high speed train system and massive subway systems throughout the US.  For many of us, it doesn’t matter how expensive gas gets.  A car is the only way to get to work in a reasonable amount of time.

Comment #181: annec  on  11/20  at  07:33 PM

You know, I’ve been to a lot of european cities with great light rail/heavy rail/bus public transport. The problems, however, are both that these systems are expensive (more than $2/trip, which is more expensive than NYC’s system), and taxes are quite high to support a lot of this infrastructure. Running the tram/metro on a regular basis is quite expensive. This is something that we, as Americans, are pretty much unwilling to pay for.

Comment #182: Tyro  on  11/20  at  07:36 PM

Running the tram/metro on a regular basis is quite expensive. This is something that we, as Americans, are pretty much unwilling to pay for.

Tyro, I don’t know. I mean, sure the Republicans will scream over the taxes, but Americans are big on spending money to save time and increase convenience. I’d pay for this kind of sysytem, like Annec and others describe. Maybe I’m not a minority - we did just elect the “more taxes” president (complete lie, but I felt the media pushed it like crazy).

*hopes*

Comment #183: Ellen  on  11/20  at  07:39 PM

Just a note on kids, cars, and safety - more kids are killed by being run over by cars in driveways than after being abductioned.  Just saying.

And when I was a kid, Mom didn’t carry any stinking water bottles for us.

Comment #184: Mo  on  11/20  at  07:52 PM

Tyro, I feel that your last post touches on what I, myself, believe - that many / most people drive by necessity not by choice.

“Necessity” is something borne of the way we have organized our cities and towns and the (lack of) money we have put into our transit infrastructure, along with the lifestyle habits we have acclimated ourselves to. Not everyone is a disabled person with 4 kids under the age of 10 who lives in a rural area.

Comment #185: Tyro  on  11/20  at  08:02 PM

@Tyro,
Well, being a mom in Amsterdam is such a sweet deal, what with the government day care, and and universal health care… I think the least they can do a little bike-riding.  wink

@annec,
Yeah, I’ve met those people too.  People who scoff at the idea of having an electric car, for example.  Also, people who had to do the two people/one car dance including driving/picking-up your SO from bus stations, and would still not agree to pay a penny more in taxes to improve conditions, even though they had waaay more house than they needed in a California suburb.

Comment #186: raspberryjamba  on  11/20  at  08:04 PM

What’s with all of the people getting all defensive when some people point out that they’re privileged and not as average as they seem to think they are?

Is it really necessary to curse out people who can’t take public transportation because they’re disabled?  Seriously?

Comment #187: Mnemosyne  on  11/20  at  08:07 PM

FYI Ellen:

I don’t agree with rasberryjamba. 

and regarding your “reasons why you need to drive posts” a physical dis-ability is no reason for social rudeness or obtuseness- in other words, Ellen, it’s not about you.  Yes, there are ethical judgements made in this thread.  But rule one of ethics is that “should” implies “can.”  Which means you are automatically exempt from not only being a “car being” but even from any guilt associated with your car use.

BTW, I have to drive a large truck for my enviro friendly business - you can’t pull a 9000 pound trailer with a VESPA.  But I sure don’t whine when anyone else talks about not using a car at all, or looks askance at me when they see the big pickup in the driveway.  And I’ll judge just as harshly the moms driving the H3’s at the school pickup - until and unless I meet them and they feel like explaining.  In other words, driving unnecessarily and drivign gas guzzlers without a valid reason should continue to be socially frowned upon- that’s how smoking habits changed.

But I’m guessing you have a handicapped parking plate or tag on your vehicle - that’s a big red flag that says this person needs (not chooses) to use a car - so you ‘d be exempt from judgement.  In other words why are you inserting yourself into this conversation that is directed at illegitimate, not legitimate car users?

Comment #188: phylosopher  on  11/20  at  08:10 PM

Welcome Fellow Supeparent Kristin!  We are the only two parents in the world that make our kids walk and carry stuff.  We are really special!

Ms Kate on 11/20 at 04:08 PM

Now make that three - and the uber-capable kids that then happen at 8 and 10 are just a bonus.

Comment #189: phylosopher  on  11/20  at  08:14 PM

@Tyro,
Yeah, ITA about necessity.  When I was growing up, I honestly, truly thought and said to everyone I knew, that I would never, ever drive.  I think I saw it as something for the plebes.  (Geez, I actually thought this! I can say this now and laugh.)  Also, I had accidents on skates, bikes and gokarts, hell, even shopping carts were too much of a challenge, so there was that.  And the city I lived in made it possible that I never ever had to drive if I wanted to.  Nothing is more than two blocks away from a corner where you can stop a bus or cab.  Also, being a girl, people will offer rides a LOT.  And even if I wanted to drive, cars are expensive, and traffic is dangerous and stressful.  If your cab has an accident, you just get out and stop another one.  If it’s your car, there goes the day…

Anyway, not a week after I got to LA, I learned to drive, got a license, bought my first junker, and I have never, ever had an accident.  I find that the car is a necessity for every Angeleno, even the poorest people have to buy cars.  Mine was $400.  I paid three times that on parking tickets the first year.  But really, the city is hostile to anything BUT cars.  A lot of times you can’t even cross the street for a mile.  And cops will give you J-WALKING TICKETS!

Comment #190: raspberryjamba  on  11/20  at  08:18 PM

Oh, grrr…neighborhoods w/out sidewalks are a HUGE pet peeve of mine.  It always seems like an act of hostility toward the residents—if you can walk around easily, you might meet your neighbors, get to know them, develop a sense of community, and we can’t have that.  Ditto for kids with bikes & big wheels—either play in the street, or get yelled at for riding over everybody’s lawn.

Sour Kraut on 11/20 at 03:28 PM

Now there’s something everyone can do something about - it’s called your town/city planning meeting.  Get ten residents to show up and watch what happens(most times no one but the builder shows).  Better yet, get on a frenndly first name basis with your town manager - it’s amazing what happens when you come at it with a “love what you’re doing, but this would make it even better” Yeah!!! Name of town.

Or, you can get an ordinance passed through the town council - sidewalks in all new subdivisions.

Comment #191: phylosopher  on  11/20  at  08:21 PM

@nell

Perhaps if you—just you—got an SUV and drove it around your Eurocity, you would save ten minutes here and there.  I agree that time is valuable!

But if people drove their SUVs there to the extent that they do in America, would it still be faster to drive?  Or are the quick driving times (and, I assume, easy traffic) of your Eurocity a result of so few people driving?

Comment #192: MsAnon  on  11/20  at  08:25 PM

Also, to add to my other post, I quickly started reading fashion mags, eating junk food, buying cosmetic products, and covetting trendy clothes.  This is what happens to foreign students! 
Bear in mind, these are all behavior that before, I staunchly ridiculed and now strictly oppose.  But this is all to add to your idea about how necessity is borne about the way we organize our cities, our towns and also our cultures.

Comment #193: raspberryjamba  on  11/20  at  08:28 PM

It’s a strange thing.  It’s like living in a small town with a limited supply of water, where if everyone takes what they need, and there should be plenty.  Then, somebody who legitimately needs more water than usual takes as much as they need, and this makes the neighbor take the same amount out of greed, or get pissed at them for taking more, for not economizing.  Suddenly, everybody is taking too much and screwing up the supply for everyone, those who needed very little as much as those who needed a lot.  I think this is called the tragedy of the commons, I’m not sure where I read it.

raspberryjamba on 11/20 at 04:26 PM

Garrett Hardin, I think?  Actually, the commons becomes totally non-productive and it’s grazing sheep, BTW.

The reason I’m coming down on Ellen is that, as with the person who lived in a rural area, you don’t need absolution if you really, really need to drive.  That’s a given.  So stop asking for it.

For anyone else feeling guilty - that’s the point.  Appropriate guilt and remorse are often what changes habits.  Like I said earlier - e.g. smoking?

Comment #194: phylosopher  on  11/20  at  08:39 PM

@phyl,
Thanks for that.  I’ll definitely place the request at the library. 
Can it also be applied to other commons?  Or just sheep grazing?  How about closet space? Mirror time?  Free bakery goods? 
I’ll shut up now.

Comment #195: raspberryjamba  on  11/20  at  08:54 PM

But, if you’re a decent human being, you’ll look at your neighbor’s children—the ones who make the walk every day because their parent doesn’t love them enough to drive them to school and make sure they arrive unabducted—and realize that the solution to the problem—the REAL solution might be something like lobbying for a local bus stop or more crossing guards in the area.

Our first reaction is “well, we’ll just drive.” Our first reactions are not always the best reaction.

Mighty Ponygirl on 11/20 at 05:07 PM

Other considerations are that most abductions are family/friend/domestic dispute.  ANother is that the fewer people are on the street the more dangerous the area becomes.  Populated streets are safer streets, AEBE. 

And what @ walking buses?  Many districts could institute these - parental/kid exercise time.

Comment #196: phylosopher  on  11/20  at  08:55 PM

INTPagan—If you feel that your children aren’t safe walking to school, that they could be killed or kidnapped or mugged, you’re free to pack them into your car and drive them back and forth everyday.

Where the fuck did I say that?  To quote you, if not verbatim.  I said that some parents feel that way, that I have personally lived in areas where that is a possibility, that I’ve nearly been abducted and that I know someone whose child became the national name for child abduction, and you’re essentially accusing me of both hovering over my children (who are both too young to go to school, for your information) and of looking down on parents because I think they don’t love them enough.  This is where I call horseshit on your ass.

A) I would let my kids walk to school where I live.  I walked to school in this neighborhood when I was an adolescent here, and it’s safe.  I also would not let my children walk to school in a particular neighborhood I lived in as a young child.  I exercise that judgment because it is my right to do so as a parent, and that’s a viewpoint I hold for all parents, unlike you.

B) I think that the optimal solution is to ensure a safer environment for all children to get to walk in; fuck you if you think I don’t care about kids that aren’t mine - you don’t know me and you don’t know anything about what I do for a living or how I feel about children’s issues.

C) I understand that different parents have different standards of safety for their children.  I have no problem with that as it is none of my business so long as it does not branch into egregious neglect.

Christ on a fucking stick, get over it; different people have different standards than you.  We do not all reason in the same way, and that is okay.  If another parent chose to drive their kid to school when I was letting my kid walk I wouldn’t feel looked down upon, so where on earth did you get that insinuation out of a simple statement that some parents may not want to take what they feel is a certain risk?

Comment #197: INTPagan  on  11/20  at  08:56 PM

And when I was a kid, Mom didn’t carry any stinking water bottles for us.

lol my friend does the same thing always bringing water bottles for her kids. She’s one of the most kind, wonderful, people I know. When I chide her about driving an hour one way to drop off her two kids at school and an hour in the other direction to go to work, she says “But I love my kids!”

Conservation just doesn’t click for her. Sometimes she’s hard up for money, can’t make rent when her ex renegs on his child support payments, etc., but she’s just not willing to change her lifestyle.

Comment #198: banisteriopsis  on  11/20  at  09:04 PM

I understand that different parents have different standards of safety for their children.  I have no problem with that as it is none of my business so long as it does not branch into egregious neglect.

The didn’t come up with these standards of safety for their children in a vacuum. They are standards that were cultivated by friends, family, the media, and the surrounding culture. To a degree, they are standards that a malleable. There’s nothing wrong with seeking to challenge the mistaken perceptions people have when it comes to irrational fears they may be harboring and, more importantly, spreading to others.

Comment #199: Tyro  on  11/20  at  09:10 PM

Is it really necessary to curse out people who can’t take public transportation because they’re disabled?  Seriously?

Mnemosyne on 11/20 at 06:07 PM

Reread - you missed it.  No one is cursing out disabled people because the can’t take public trans.  The hostility started when the disabled became angry that anyone would say most people use cars out of habit rather than need - though no one argued whether SHE was in the need or habit category. 

And Americans (especially moms with small kids have waaaay too much stuff- that they haul around) everywhere.

Comment #200: phylosopher  on  11/20  at  09:12 PM

When some other parents questioned whether we should be letting our kids freely roam the neighborhood - a very low traffic area with clear boundaries - or walk in the woods on their own, my husband pulled out the statistics on abductions.

50 per year, about 1 every TWO YEARS in our state.

That’s great.  Where did you get the statistics?  And what state do you live in?  And how on earth does 50 per year=1 every two years?

Also, who the hell are you to tell other parents what they should and shouldn’t do with their kids if the kids aren’t being hurt?  Why the hell are you so concerned with what other parents do if it doesn’t affect you and doesn’t hurt anyone?  What the fuck is this intense concern with shit that doesn’t even affect you?  Aren’t we supposed to be liberals here?

Comment #201: INTPagan  on  11/20  at  09:13 PM

The didn’t come up with these standards of safety for their children in a vacuum. They are standards that were cultivated by friends, family, the media, and the surrounding culture. To a degree, they are standards that a malleable. There’s nothing wrong with seeking to challenge the mistaken perceptions people have when it comes to irrational fears they may be harboring and, more importantly, spreading to others.

Yes, and my parents’ friends told them that they were irrationally protective of me.  I also nearly got my ass abducted when I was seven.

Amber Hagerman’s mom was pretty protective as well.

What I’m saying is that you never have any idea, and it’s your choice which side of caution to err on.

Comment #202: INTPagan  on  11/20  at  09:22 PM

I am an undergrad on a campus where pretty much everyone bikes. I live off-campus, but close enough that I always bike to class and work. Last week I had bronchitis and couldn’t bike without dissolving into ridiculous coughing fits, so I drove. Finding parking was so infuriatingly difficult that it was almost worth it to sacrifice my lungs on a bike ride.

As for bikers obeying traffic laws, I do not think there’s a correlation between how prominent bikers are (and therefore their acknowledgment by drivers) and their propensity to obey the laws. On this campus, there are literally thousands of bikers, and the drivers are very aware of them and treat them with respect. It doesn’t seem to make any difference to the vast majority of bikers here, who will zip through stop signs at four-way intersections without even looking both ways first.

I spent a few months studying in England, and the public transportation was so nice I couldn’t believe it. The buses were easy to access and arrived frequently, and I traveled easily to various parts of the country by train (okay, once the train broke down and it was a huge hassle, but other than that).

Comment #203: Lauren O  on  11/20  at  09:25 PM

@msAnon -

I’m not in Europe.  grin

I’m in Venezuela - where gas is outrageously cheap and there are as many if not more late model SUVs as anywhere I’ve ever been in the U.S.  Many cars actually *appreciate* in value over the years.  Traffic is awful, the drivers have a deserved reputation for being terrible and dangerous (as in aggressive and risky) and I’ve watched way too many motor bike/car or bus collisions as I walk around the city and am only one or two degrees removed from at least two traffic crash related deaths in the last two months.  Long time residents of my city (not Caracas which is a whole ‘nother kettle of fish) complain endlessly about the rise in traffic due to the increase of cars, taxis, buses (and people) clogging the streets.

The tension between what’s good for me, and what’s good for the commons is very much part of what I’m working through in my own head - but part of what I’m somewhat belatedly recognizing in the car/public transport debate is that cars (and SUVs!) have advantages *even in the face* of a walkable city with reasonable public transportation options.  Yes - there are costs in the choice to have a personal vehicle, both the obvious immediate economic costs and the long term public health and safety costs - but there are also advantages that many people are willing pay for.  Thoughtlessly - or thoughtfully.  And maybe it is worth taking some time to figure out what those advantages are - so that we we dream up new systems we can do our best to recognize and accommodate those advantages, rather than just telling people to suck it up.

Time is probably one of the biggest. Due to my current situation, I have some ‘extra’ time, so the walking, bus thing is only a mild irritation (that obviously doesn’t stop me from missing my car).  In my previous city - every freaking minute was precious due to a high stress/high demand work situation along with family responsibilities. 

So - I’m wondering if going ‘green’ (or, greener)  in the US (and other places) will ultimately be part not just of better designed urban transport - but also better work/life balances in which there is time to make use of public transportation options without calculating lost time in other pursuits.

Comment #204: nell  on  11/20  at  09:26 PM

Fellow Twin Citian here.

I live in Minneapolis, and work in a St. Paul suburb. By car, my commute takes about 25 minutes. By bus, it takes over two hours with three transfers. In other words, my commute would be the equivalent of a second half time job. No thanks. Even when gas prices were astronomical, it wasn’t worth it.

Thankfully, I have a friend who works in the same place and lives ten minutes away from me. (Hi, Ananael Qaa!) We carpool whenever our schedules permit, which is most of the time.

maatnofret on 11/20 at 05:23 PM

Thanks for writing this!
Lest I forget I moved from Minneapolis to Seattle… and will be back there for Xmas having to bum rides off of relations for 2 weeks.
There are worse cities for public transport in the US for sure!
At least MN is trying with light rail now though- Seattle only just got on that pony!

Comment #205: Danica Lefse Queen  on  11/20  at  09:36 PM

I’m a misanthrope and I will never take public transit unless gas goes above $100 a gallon.

I can’t stand to be close to a bunch of people, no matter their class.

Forget that.

Comment #206: Mike  on  11/20  at  09:54 PM

Wow, lots of DFW area people here. I’m up in Denton and I don’t own a car. There’s minimal bus service from the DTCA but Denton’s small enough that it’s usually faster to bike as long as the wind stays under 30mph and the temperature stays under 100F. The area around UNT and TWU is as bike-friendly as Texas really gets but the bus is necessary if going to the shopping district, which is actively hostile to bike riders and pedestrians.
And someone upthread mentioned the lack of shelter and benches at bus stops. That’s definitely true around here, where something like (at my best guess) one in four bus stops even has a bench, let alone any kind of shelter. And in a place where very warm temperatures and high winds are quite common and bus service isn’t always very frequent, this can be a real problem for people.


I enjoy not owning a car but it does make certain things more difficult and/or time consuming. Not owning a car is also a major factor in my current unemployment, for one.

Car culture is very strong in Texas. When I was at my parents’ house in a small north Texas town for the summer, I rode my bike ~2.5 miles to work and people thought I was crazy for doing even that. There are plenty of people out there who are so used to driving everywhere that they never even think to walk anywhere.
On the flip side, public transportation in most of Texas is either awful or nonexistent so not owning a car might mean not being able to leave the small town you live in. But I’m all for more social pressure to save the driving for when it’s necessary.

Comment #207: Ira Wyatt  on  11/20  at  10:08 PM

@Neil.

Ah.  Forgive my assumption; I was having visions of a wonderful public-transit European paradise leaking into my brain…

Also, I probably should not have responded by offering yet another “personal-level solution”.  This thread has denigrated into “Reasons why I, personally, take public transit” and “Reasons/excuses why I, personally, do not take public transit.”  Leaving aside the rural people, we can talk about everyone in the following way:

While we each have individual preferences and needs, I think anyone who agrees that public transit is a social good will realize that we need *collective* and not *individual* solutions.  It’s beyond just doing our individual bit—this is why we’re talking about PUBLIC transit, not about individual little hydrogen cars!  If the systems are not working to provide safe, clean, reliable, accessible, speedy public transit for everyone—the disabled, the poor, children, outer-ring suburbanites etc.—then we need to change the SYSTEMS to get public transit that works for as much of the population as possible.  It will be a lot easier to get people to change their individual perceptions when we have a convenient, attractive, WELL-FUNDED alternative to offer them.  Then the marketing to the middle-class and upper-middle class can begin.

Comment #208: MsAnon  on  11/20  at  10:13 PM

** and for “denigrated” read “degenerated”...

Comment #209: MsAnon  on  11/20  at  10:15 PM

Do you think there is any money to be made in PRIVATE public transportation?

Comment #210: raspberryjamba  on  11/20  at  10:42 PM

Reread - you missed it.  No one is cursing out disabled people because the can’t take public trans.  The hostility started when the disabled became angry that anyone would say most people use cars out of habit rather than need - though no one argued whether SHE was in the need or habit category.

I did reread.  I’m not sure where you’re getting this horrible hostility from Ellen, who’s been apologetic in all of her postings and asked people to think about the fact that they’re privileged as able-bodied people to be able to CHOOSE to take public transportation/ride a bicycle/walk everywhere.

So it comes back to you (and not just you) becoming insanely defensive when someone points out that, no, it’s not as easy as telling everyone to take the bus, because some people have disabilities that are not obvious to the naked eye.

Seriously, this is turning into the mass transit version of one of those threads where the atheists complain about how stupid all the theists are for not agreeing with them.

Comment #211: Mnemosyne  on  11/20  at  10:52 PM

INTP, 50 per year NATIONWIDE, and 1 every 2 years in MASSACHUSETTS.

In otherwords, vanishingly small odds - they are much more likely to develop type II diabetes as teens from an overly-sedentary lifestyle, okay?

And when I was a kid, Mom didn’t carry any stinking water bottles for us.

We haul water bottles around - refillable ones - because water fountains are nearly nonexistant in the Boston area, as are public restrooms.  For the first two years of my eldest’s education, before the new schools were ready, my son went to a school with no water fountains.  They couldn’t allow the kids to drink the water because of lead in the piping - he had to refill his own bottle from the water tank.

Comment #212: Ms Kate  on  11/20  at  11:10 PM

Hah, I thought Lauren O lived in my town…

Anyway, I don’t drive and I live in one of the few towns where you can get away with doing that. The public transport here is medium good. But I’m well aware of my limitations:

(a) I have to live in the downtown area rather than cheaper areas on the fringe of town, and near a grocery store. Said grocery store is “specialized” and more expensive and doesn’t offer as many useful staples as ye olde Safeway. I also cannot carry home more than I can carry in a backpack or in two bags, so it forces me to shop weekly and briefly. (Carts do NOT deal with sidewalks well at all.)
(b) The town busses run fairly often, but I hope you don’t need to go anywhere on a weekend night, or on a weekend at all, that requires a bus. I also chose a place to live where if the bus does NOT show up, or if I want to go anywhere on weekends, I can still walk to most of the places I need to go within a half-hour’s walk. This also heavily limits any job searching.
(c) Intercounty bus transport only takes you into the fringes of the cities, and get…interesting…riders. And at least one driver has outright refused to drive me to the end of his route where I wanted to go, and kicked me off and told me to take another bus. I have meetings in the nearest city, which I have to get rides for because there is no other way to get there than by car.
(d) Amtrak can only get me halfway to my mom’s, at which point I need a ride to pick me up in another town. As a general rule, if I take a train trip somewhere, I will have to get someone to pick me up because there’s no public transport from the train to anywhere else.
(e) I will have to learn to drive and get a car if i want to move ANYWHERE. Period.
(f) Most of the things I need to get in the world, I still need to get a ride from someone in order to get. Delivery only goes so far. God forbid I need to say, go to the fabric store.

I voted for the high-speed train in California, and the day after some friends of mine were bitching that nobody wants to leave their cars for anything. Um, yeah, that’s why nobody can live without a car. Even I admit that it’s Very Fucking Difficult to live without a car, and I will be forced to drive and use one someday. Ugh.

Comment #213: Jennifer  on  11/20  at  11:10 PM

INTP, 50 per year NATIONWIDE, and 1 every 2 years in MASSACHUSETTS.

I guess all those kids whose pictures are on the wall at the store don’t factor into that, huh.  Even considering that number, I wouldn’t guess you should tell the parents of those fifty that they should have been less protective.

In otherwords, vanishingly small odds - they are much more likely to develop type II diabetes as teens from an overly-sedentary lifestyle, okay?

And do you think that parents who actually try and prevent this from happening are being terrible, controlling parents, too?

Do you like when other people tell you how to be a parent?

Comment #214: INTPagan  on  11/20  at  11:14 PM

Mnem, I wanted to say it, but thought I shouldn’t be the one.

It just doesn’t make sense to me that this website is dedicated to liberal ideas, and then we run into these random topics where a group of people who otherwise are open to each other’s viewpoints suddenly go for each other’s throats and cannot simply tolerate that there are alternate viewpoints and experiences.  It boggles my mind.

Seriously, guys, what is so offensive about people pointing out that, when you point a finger at everyone, it is unfair and misleading, and then explaining why?  And why can’t people just do what Kristin did and say, oh, okay, there are exceptions, and then move on from there?  Why is it that you have to say, boo hoo, get over your problems and shut up while we lump you in with the rest?  This applies both here and in the threads about religion.  I don’t expect others to just shut up and act like it’s okay to be accused (even if it’s something that would be invisible otherwise) of things that are untrue.

What is so offensive about saying that maybe saying that all parents who think differently than you are wrong is a demonstration of complete inability to try and think from their position?  What the fuck has happened here?  Are we evolving into the opposite of wingnut land, where everyone who is different from you is Wrong?  Jesus.

Comment #215: INTPagan  on  11/20  at  11:15 PM

INTPagan, look close at those missing children posters ... and see how many of them are kids snatched by non-custodial parents.

Comment #216: Ms Kate  on  11/20  at  11:18 PM

Oh, and I’m not telling you how to parent - I am merely skewering one of the grand myths that lead nearly half of parents to fear stranger abductions of their children if they let them out of their sight.  If you wish to persist in your fearland, go ahead.  There are others like you everywhere, and many voted for McCain, too!

Comment #217: Ms Kate  on  11/20  at  11:20 PM

Seriously, guys, what is so offensive about people pointing out that, when you point a finger at everyone, it is unfair and misleading, and then explaining why?

I love it when you get all rational now that you have done THE EXACT SAME THING you describe here when going on and on and on about how your personal traumatic experiences generalize to the entire population and then attack others who understand the statistical reality to be different.

Comment #218: Ms Kate  on  11/20  at  11:22 PM

This is just a test.  Where did my post go?

Comment #219: Daughter  on  11/20  at  11:23 PM

OK, I’ll try again.  I lived in Boston for many years, and b/c of great public transit, I lived car-free for a long time.  I even took my daughter almost everywhere on public transit, as a baby and a toddler.  (BTW, I needed a big stroller when she was a baby, and I can tell you that even low-income moms in the inner-city use big strollers for babies who can’t yet sit up on their own).

But there are downsides.  The Ride, the MBTA’s paratransit system, is only available for people with permanent disabilities, confirmed with a doctor’s note.  When I had a knee injury for 3-4 months, and another time when a friend had had surgery on her foot, neither or us were allowed to use The Ride. Public transit sucks when all stations aren’t handicap accessible, or the elevator is broken, or the walk between the elevator and where you board the bus or train is long - not much of an issue if you’re in a wheelchair, but a horrible thing to deal with if you’re using a cane or crutches.

Comment #220: Daughter  on  11/20  at  11:27 PM

Lets see what the list of reasons people don’t or can’t use transit:

There is no public transit around

Inadequate coverage

Takes too long/too many transfers

Walk is too far for persons with disabilities

Doesn’t go where I want to go

I have kids

My kids can’t use transit or walk, because the bogeyman will get them

No parking at terminus

I like my personal space/uncomfortable

It is too dangerous


Note that very few of these are a matter of personal attitude, preference, or concern - most are a matter of logistics and quality.  However, some of these “personal attitude” issues are very strongly ingrained and many are dependent on “prevailing belief” rather than statistical realities.

The best motives to pry people from their cars seem to be economic.  Maybe if we paid by the mile or the gallon toward the true cost of car infrastructure (equivalent to $3.50 a gallon federal tax by some estimates) it might change some of these “supporting attitudes” that keep people driving their lives away.

Comment #221: Ms Kate  on  11/20  at  11:32 PM

A thought about the tension on this thread:  I started reading environmental blogs and threads three years ago, when my daughter was a baby.  I used to get upset by the forcefulness of people advocating for things that were out of reach for me, usually because of cost.  Then I decided that I could only do the best I could given my circumstances, and while I’d learn from others, I wouldn’t let what I couldn’t do bother me.  For example, I can’t afford organic clothing, but I can and do now buy all my and my daughter’s clothing second-hand (except underwear and socks).  I can’t afford pricey cleaning and beauty products,  but I can make my own from inexpensive ingredients such as baking soda, vinegar, and olive oil.  And so on.

This doesn’t excuse people from being jerks (and some people have been, such as the guy who told Ellen to get a hamster), but it has definitely helped me keep my peace of mind in discussions like this one.

Comment #222: Daughter  on  11/20  at  11:32 PM

Daughter, the MBTA’s issues with accessibility are a matter of longstanding indifference and resistance and numerous consent decrees.  On the day that the ADA went into effect, a blind woman fell to her death at our nearest T station because they didn’t put in the bumpy strip at the edge of the platform - and refused to do it until sued blue and ordered to by a federal judge.  Total cost per station: $875.  Shameful, most shameful.  I rode on buses in Portland and Seattle in the mid-90s that loaded wheelchairs in 30 seconds, and returned to Boston to hear all the excuses about why they ordered new buses without the lifts and why it would take years to retrofit them.  Meanwhile, I worked at Mass General and frequently assisted people with the numerous flights of stairs it took to get out of the station.  I had to navigate them on crutches for a time myself.

You just need to have permission to be disabled, that’s all.  That is the attitude.  Just stay home and be crippled.  They are still fighting a lawsuit by chair-using delegates to the 2004 DNC over failed transportation.

Stuck in the 50s?  yep.

Comment #223: Ms Kate  on  11/20  at  11:38 PM

I really don’t think I should add anything more because I already made so many people so upset, which wasn’t my intent at all, so now I’m feeling like I’m a big failure at basic communication, but I wanted to say thanks to Mnemosyne for managing to understand what I was trying to get at, even though I obviously must not have phrased it clearly.

I don’t understand why we have to individually drag out our justifications every day, every week, online and offline for why we live our lives the way we do. I don’t have a handicapped placard because apparently they are reserved for people who have it way worse than me, and I’m not going to ever complain about that - I’m grateful that I’m still fairly mobile, 48 weeks or so out of the year. But I thought that if I could explain it, it would be clear why so many “normal looking” people still keep their car, even though global warming is staring us in the face and we are frightened and feel guilty about the whole thing. I didn’t do a good job explaining, I guess, what I meant about privilege and “normal looking people” who have good reasons for their “aberrent” behavior, I’m sorry.

But lots of love to Mnemosyne and INTPagan. I’m going to go lurk the Target-clothing thread now. smile

Comment #224: Ellen  on  11/20  at  11:39 PM

I love it when you get all rational now that you have done THE EXACT SAME THING you describe here when going on and on and on about how your personal traumatic experiences generalize to the entire population and then attack others who understand the statistical reality to be different.

Ms. Kate, I really don’t get what your beef is.  I simply said that I have experienced things contrary to your automatic assumption, and that telling other people to parent is not cool.  Period.  Show me where I attacked you - not your idea that your way of parenting is the only way, but your yourself.  Please, I would love to see it.

I never said anything other than that, for a website that is supposed to have a liberal bias, we’re getting awfully concerned about other people’s private business, like how they raise their children.  And, if you’re going to try to draw a “fearland” parallel between me and McCain voters (seriously, what the fuck is your problem here? you’re rational elsewhere and it really bugs me that you’re being so intense about this), McCain voters are also the ones who would love to get up in your shit about how you’re raising your kids. 

However, I don’t think you’re a bad parent because of it.  I also tend towards the less protective personally, so where you’re getting this idea that I’m a nazi parent who won’t let my kids walk to school when they can’t even go to goddamn school is beyond me, and it’s pissing me the fuck off.  I’m telling you that maybe other people’s families aren’t your business if they’re taking care of their own, and you’re telling me that I’m paranoid like a McCain voter just because I say that I have personal experiences with abduction.  God damn, it’s enough to make someone stop posting here.

If you want to fabricate an attack, fine, here’s a real one - fuck off if you’re going to start making personal judgments about me just because I tell you maybe you should chill the fuck out about other people’s reasoning regarding their own fucking families.  Stop attacking people on here because they’re telling you to stop and think for a minute about the blanket statements you’re making (where here did I do what I’m being accused of?!).  Fucking get over yourself and realize that you live on a world with a lot of different people who think differently than you.

Comment #225: INTPagan  on  11/20  at  11:41 PM

INTP, do what you want with your own family - just stop spreading nonsense and fear under the guise of “reality” when it is not reality and is an easy avenue for social control of women and families. 

If you had ever been threatened with a report of abuse/neglect for letting your child walk to a friend’s house in a low traffic area, you would understand why I want you to confront your bullshit or, at least, confine it to your own family rather than implying that parents who allow their kids to walk to school are somehow remiss in their duties.

Got it?  Go fuck yourself.

Comment #226: Ms Kate  on  11/20  at  11:44 PM

Who are these parents that drive their kids to school? I went to a private high school, but it was in the city, in the opposite direction from where my parents worked. No way were they going to drive me to and from school. I took the public bus (two buses,  in fact) every day, leaving around 6:30 a.m. Since I’d grown up in a middle-class white suburb, it was an eye-opening experience, though I didn’t understand why until some years later.

If I am ever a parent (I am gettng too old so it is unlikely), I will teach my children karate so they can deal with the sexual predators themselves.

Comment #227: sara  on  11/20  at  11:47 PM

INTP, do what you want with your own family - just stop spreading nonsense and fear under the guise of “reality” when it is not reality and is an easy avenue for social control of women and families.

Jesus fucking tapdancing Christ, did you even read what I wrote, or did you just read the words “fuck” and “family?”

If you had ever been threatened with a report of abuse/neglect for letting your child walk to a friend’s house in a low traffic area,

Did I do that to you?  No.  Would I do that to you?  No, because I would let my children do the same, as I said repeatedly.  So stop blaming me for shit that happened to you.  Get over yourself.

you would understand why I want you to confront your bullshit or, at least, confine it to your own family rather than implying that parents who allow their kids to walk to school are somehow remiss in their duties.

Let me show you exactly what I said in several quotes:

I understand your point, and I do think some parents are overprotective of their kids, but…I’m not going to criticize parents for not being willing to take that risk.

There are some places where this really isn’t safe.  Again, I’m telling you not to judge parents who don’t want to take that risk.  It’s one thing if they won’t let their kids have lives and friends, but it’s another if they live in a neighborhood where it just might be a bad idea to let them walk to school, or take the bus, or take the train.

Where the fuck did I say that?  To quote you, if not verbatim.  I said that some parents feel that way, that I have personally lived in areas where that is a possibility, that I’ve nearly been abducted and that I know someone whose child became the national name for child abduction, and you’re essentially accusing me of both hovering over my children (who are both too young to go to school, for your information) and of looking down on parents because I think they don’t love them enough.  This is where I call horseshit on your ass.

Christ on a fucking stick, get over it; different people have different standards than you.  We do not all reason in the same way, and that is okay.  If another parent chose to drive their kid to school when I was letting my kid walk I wouldn’t feel looked down upon, so where on earth did you get that insinuation out of a simple statement that some parents may not want to take what they feel is a certain risk?

<u>However, I don’t think you’re a bad parent because of it.  I also tend towards the less protective personally, so where you’re getting this idea that I’m a nazi parent who won’t let my kids walk to school when they can’t even go to goddamn school is beyond me, and it’s pissing me the fuck off.  I’m telling you that maybe other people’s families aren’t your business if they’re taking care of their own</u>

So please, stop making shit up and pretending I said it, or pretending I’m the asshole who called CPS on your ass for something you didn’t do wrong, or like I judged your parenting at all.  I just asked you to step outside of yourself for a fucking moment and you were incapable of it.  I’ve known someone who is that statistic you coldly throw around, and it may be so rare as to be an anamoly, but it still exists, and other parents have the right to decide whether or not they are willing to risk being that anamoly.  It doesn’t make them better parents or worse parents; it’s not a referendum on your personal parenting style when someone parents differently than you.  It just makes them different people.  Why the hell can’t you deal with that?

Comment #228: INTPagan  on  11/21  at  12:03 AM

Ms. Kate re: the MBTA and accessibility:  yikes!  I was only dealing with accessibility issues for a short time; how tough it must be for those dealing with them all the time!

Comment #229: Daughter  on  11/21  at  12:05 AM

Look, INTP, when your kids get older and the social control starts grinding in despite facts, reason, and logic to the contrary, you will understand why I feel it is necessary to demolish “common sense = urban mythology” whenever, and wherever I find it.

Comment #230: Ms Kate  on  11/21  at  12:09 AM

“I guess all those kids whose pictures are on the wall at the store don’t factor into that, huh.  Even considering that number, I wouldn’t guess you should tell the parents of those fifty that they should have been less protective. “

I’m not Mighty Ponygirl (that *was* MP, right?) but the vast majority of missing children are kidnapped by people they know, usually a noncustodial parent. Next largest group, IIRC, is teenaged runaways.

Now, if someone has a noncustodial co-parent that they think might be at ALL liable to kidnap their child, then it’s completely understandable for them to have a little more vigorous protection in place. It all goes back to individual circumstances.

Just as the problem with strollers and cars is that we’ve been convinced we need them as the default, the problem with danger to children is that we’ve been convinced it exists, randomly, from strangers as the default. And it just doesn’t. “Protecting The Gift” by Gavin de Becker is a good intro read on the subject.

Comment #231: Kristin  on  11/21  at  12:14 AM

I haven’t had a car since I moved into the city 27 years ago. We have a very well integrated transit system that gets me nearly anywhere I’d like to go, including out to my dad’s within walking distance of his retirement condo community. And in the past few years, we have a nonprofit carsharing company that allows for the occasional hour or two rental to go to Ikea or perhaps a bit longer to go out to a historic or scenic spot. But for the most part, I walk, take the bus/subway/trolley/train. And for shopping? It’s cheaper to have groceries delivered than to take a cab and it’s delivered to my door—no trying to figure out how I’m going to carry everything. And if a little truck is delivering to dozens of people in a morning (which is the kind of delivery I’m talking about), that’s one small truck on the road for a route instead of dozens of people making the round trip.

In the burbs, my mom would go to the store every day, in the car. She’d go to the coffee shop in the morning to hang out in a car. I hated the burbs. I hated having to drive everywhere. I hated the isolation, the waste of resources (for example, my brother, his wife, and two children living in a huge five-bedroom, 3 1/2 bath house in which they use only two rooms of the five-room first floor—I just think of all the heating and air conditioning of all that unused space and it makes me nuts!).

I’m a city person. But I can see living in a town. I can see living in the country. I’ll never understand the lure of suburbia.

Comment #232: Bo  on  11/21  at  12:37 AM

Look, INTP, when your kids get older and the social control starts grinding in despite facts, reason, and logic to the contrary, you will understand why I feel it is necessary to demolish “common sense = urban mythology” whenever, and wherever I find it.

That’s nice, but you weren’t simply doing that here.  Here’s where you derailed:

If you wish to persist in your fearland, go ahead.  There are others like you everywhere, and many voted for McCain, too!

I started getting strident more in response to the tone taken by Mighty Ponygirl, and I apologize if that came off as coming solely at you.  Again, I haven’t seen you derail like this on any other thread, and that’s part of the root of my frustration here - I don’t understand why lately Pandagon on the whole, in the comment threads, seems to have taken a rather violent turn towards intolerance in several areas, not limited to this thread.  I’m seeing people I have otherwise liked and respected suddenly just go off the deep end when someone who otherwise agrees with them happens to disagree on particular topic.  I haven’t seen you do that before.

So what was really directed at Mighty Ponygirl ended up directed at you as well since you were taking the same position, albeit less stridently in the beginning.  And we ended up yelling at each other.  Whatever.  You weren’t able to find anything to back up where you said I attacked you or your parenting like you said I did, so you said this, which at least makes more sense.

Comment #233: INTPagan  on  11/21  at  12:38 AM

It’s not perfect, but hey, when I read americans talking about public transport your system (particularly requiring car only exurbs) sounds amazingly bad, if not nonexistent in a lot of areas.

As someone who has experienced it on both sides of the pond: public transit in the US is amazingly bad, if not nonexistent in a lot of areas. This is judged by the standard not of London—which is idiosyncratic—but any British town. And pretty much anywhere in continental Europe puts Britain to shame.

As Tyro said upthread, this is about dealing with the ring ‘burbs—the places that are 3-5 miles from the town centre, which, in Europe, would have a range of different, regular bus/train/tram services.

Back where my parents live, in what can be classified as an outer-ring suburb, I could walk two minutes to the bus stop, wait in a covered shelter, expect a bus to arrive within ten minutes or so, spend fifteen minutes on the bus ($2 fare) to get downtown. Or I could bike downtown in 35 minutes, and lock it up somewhere safe. Or I could drive into town in 5-10 minutes, and pay $5 or so for a couple of hours parking, and the round-trip gas burnt would have cost about the same as the bus one way. Thing is, when I got downtown, I’d have a compact, walkable area.

Comment #234: pseudonymous in nc  on  11/21  at  04:17 AM

Why the hell are you so concerned with what other parents do if it doesn’t affect you and doesn’t hurt anyone?  What the fuck is this intense concern with shit that doesn’t even affect you?  Aren’t we supposed to be liberals here?

You touch on the age old question of liberalism—how willing are we to tolerate anti-liberal values? Look, fomenting fear of our neighbors and exagerrating threats is not only illiberal, it is a threat to liberal values and leaves people open and vulnerable to authoritarianism.

I, as much as any other northeast liberal, try as much as I can to adhere to the credo of, “do what works for you, and we’ll try to make it easier for you to do that,” but at a certain point, fostering and encouraging certain mindsets (eg, exaggerated fear of neighbors, belief that there are serious threats around every corner, a “culture of fear,” etc.) are hostile to liberal values and are going to make liberalism hard to come by in the future if we don’t struggle against it. (this is one reason why lowering the number of “quality of life” crimes and property crimes, as well as violent crimes, is so important—it allows people to live with less day-to-day fear and thus be more amenable to liberal values)

Comment #235: Tyro  on  11/21  at  06:20 AM

...living in the exurbs is great because you get “more house for your money”

I would live in the city in a heartbeat if I could afford it.  My household is me, my boyfriend, my brother, and our 7 year old niece.  The brother is here because he needed a place to stay through college (he’s at DeVry Irving which doesn’t have dorms).  The niece is here because her parents got evicted.  I work in downtown Dallas and the boyfriend works in Denton. 

So we’re at the halfway point, which is Lewisville.  Yes, we could find other jobs, but it’s extremely difficult right now, and we’ve been very, very lucky to get the wonderful jobs we have. 

We need at least 2 bedrooms.  We could move into Dallas, but your choices are corporate condos that start in the $400,000 range for a studio, or small houses in Fair Park/Mesquite/Cockrell Hill that are completely falling apart and wouldn’t pass FHA inspection anyway.  And Fair Park makes me nervous (NO I’m not racist or classist, but 1. the area is very crime-ridden, and I have a young child here and 2. there is no economic stability in the houses—many of them are demolished or abandoned and a house there is not an investment at all). 

We could move out to Frisco or Little Elm or another rural area, but that increases my commute and my brother’s by a lot.

So I take the bus, and we live in the burbs.  I hate it—there’s no culture here, no diversity of people or stores or anything.  Nothing unique.  But I take the bus, and get my groceries either from the Dallas Farmers Market or a locally owned grocery store (Terry’s—gotta love it).  When we eat out we eat at locally owned restaurants most of the time.  And I’m on a committee at the Denton County Democratic Party.  We try to make it our own.

Comment #236: Amanduh  on  11/21  at  08:48 AM

An essential illiberal aspect of those who would hole themselves up against diversity and community in suburbia is that they often publicly scaremonger, to oppose public transportation extensions into their suburbs and hence high-quality, high-coverage public transportation lines in their metropolitan areas. See, e.g., Beverly Hills, California, and almost every suburb of Los Angeles. Therefore, it is no longer a question of respect for people’s private choices about suburban lifestyles but about what sort of public transportation infrastructure best suits all citizens of a metropolitan area, taking as a given the variety of lifestyle choices there that ought to be respected. Now, enter oversimplified rhetoric about how suburbanites are Real Americans and conservatives’ drumbeating for suburbia and traditional families, in order to enhance the political power of suburbanites in this public bargaining process and weaken those with alternative views of community.

Comment #237: Luke  on  11/21  at  10:13 AM

Further greetings from the land of proper public transportation,

I happen to agree with Ms Kate’s assessment of the ‘list of issues on this thread’ above…..

Those issues, almost all of them, are not issues of individual choice…..but issues arising from the fact that US public transportation apparently SUCKS.

Should, through some political miracle, a proper European (for preference) or British (if you can’t afford European) public transport system be implemented….... well, about 4/5ths of those issues/objections would just disappear. The effect of the remaing 1/5th would be greatly ameliorated.

OF COURSE, if the bus takes longer, makes you wait in the rain, and takes 3 transfers and 2 hours to do a 25minute car journey then people will not use the bus. The solution to that is not to tell that person that they need to take the bus anyway or they are an environmental vandal…... it’s to provide quicker buses/bus lanes, bus stop shelters and more routes (to cut the transfers down or out). People will not use public transport UNLESS proper public transport is provided. Arguing about reasons doesn’t cut it, eliminating those reasons by building the infrastructure neccessary to do so does.

This will take invesment. Serious, multi-decade, investment….. but given that the US needs a strong keynesian economic stimulus NOW in any case .. and to move to greener transport/energy NOW in any case .... this would seem the perfect opportunity to do so, or at least make the start on doing so.

This should not be all that diffidult. Take the ‘car only exurb’ problem…. An initial response here would be to provide proper bus routes, shelters and pedestrian access. That is an immediate improvement that can be made without serious infrastrusture development. A more ‘medium term’ investment would be to copy the german system of ‘train stations in the middle of nowhere’ linking to the city.

You get a bunch of 2-4 exurbs closely clustered….. pick a patch of unused land roughly equidistant from all four…... and use that land to build a train/light rail/tram station that feeds onto a line into ‘the city’ alongside a bloody great (and inexpensive) car park and a bus terminal (with buses going to the exurbs).

All 4 exurbs might require a 5-10 minute commute to get to the station (either car or bus)..... but the rest of the hour long journey can be accomplished by train. Whatsmore, due to how these things work ‘timing wise’ and the oft repeated situation where one partner works in the city, and another locally. It allows one car to be run, which drops the ‘city worker’ off, while the other partner then drops off the kids and goes to their local job. All 3 ‘morning/evening’ trips done by one car in 30 minutes, car shared, and the rest of the trip (2 hours return) completed using public transport.

This should not be beyond America, surely.

Make that infrastructure available…... then all (or almost all) the objections we see here will vanish like morning frost on your windshield.

There is no reason to suppose America cannot accomplish a task that every other major first world country on the globe has managed to accomplish.

We DO NOT need to persuade people to take public transport over here…. you DO NOT need to persuade people to take public transport in America (by and large)...... what you DO need to persuade people to do is BUILD the public transport infrastructure neccessary so that people DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES to take it.

Thats how it works in the UK and Europe….... we aren’t all green ‘save the planet’ treehuggers over here, no more so than Americans are. The difference is, over here, other factors are more than enough, much more than enough, to persuade you to use public transport for your own personal, selfish, greedy individual motives.

Thats where the US needs to be… where you take public transport for your OWN benefit. The fact that it’s greener becomes an ancillary question when it is so advantageous on a personal, selfish perspective anyway. It’s ‘nice’ but not the reason you get on the train in the first place.

Appealing to peoples own selfish instincts is ALWWAYS going to be more successful than asking them to ignore those instincts to benefit everyone else. America’s task is to make public transportation so advantageous people do choose it for those personal selfish reasons.

Yours,

TGP

Comment #238: TGP  on  11/21  at  10:39 AM

Wow, TGP, for the win. That was an awesome post, thank you!

Comment #239: Ellen  on  11/21  at  10:50 AM

Amen, Tyro.

There are also real, practical effects on me of attitudes like INTPagans.
1) I end up living in a less safe neighborhood, becuase there are no people to thwart criminals who don’t want to be seen.

2) I end up living in a neighborhood that isn’t a neighborhood - it has less opportunities for my kids to meet people, one that is more dangerous becuase it puts more cars on the road - healthwise and accidentwise.  It is a DEAD neighborhood.

3) The eventual health care costs of your and your children’s wilfull incapacitation.  Perhaps they’ll have private insurance, perhaps not.  ANd while as a LIBERAL I don’t mind paying and supporting those with accidental disease or disability, I damn sure have a right to expect you to do your part for preventable stuff.

Comment #240: phylosopher  on  11/21  at  10:58 AM

An essential illiberal aspect of those who would hole themselves up against diversity and community in suburbia is that they often publicly scaremonger, to oppose public transportation extensions into their suburbs and hence high-quality, high-coverage public transportation lines in their metropolitan areas. Luke

Yes also Luke.  We’re going through that now in the midwest where I live.  The newspaper comments section is full of “don’t build that train line” - even though the Congressman has secured fed matching funds, even though the two lane roads are all crumbling and the four lane is a parking lot at 7-9 and 4-6.  THis is one of the most segregated areas around, and the excuse is always “do you want our (lilywhite) town to become like north (colorful) parts of the county.  As if criminals will use the train to come and steal your TV - right.

Comment #241: phylosopher  on  11/21  at  11:04 AM

Phylosopher…I’m sorry…did you just suggest that taking your children to school personally because you are (rationally or not) concerned about their safety…will “incapacitate” said children over time?

Because that’s the only way I can interpret your Point #3, and I don’t see the line between Point A and Point B.

Where is all this vitriol towards parents who want to walk / drive their kids to school? Whether it’s logical or not, it’s their choice and it’s not hurting you, except in the sense of “my life would be nicer if everyone behaved exactly like me”. Which is generally true for everyone, but we are supposed to be mature enough to realize that other people have other situations and we trust them to make good decisions. Touching on another thing you said earlier, Phylo:

And I’ll judge just as harshly the moms driving the H3’s at the school pickup - until and unless I meet them and they feel like explaining.

I really feel that you enjoy this Arbiter / Judge role you’ve set up for yourself where you get to “judge” people for their lifestyle choices and if they want your approval they have to come to you, hat in hand, and present their reasons for their choices and you get to decide whether those reasons are valid enough to give them a pass.

And I think that’s a really ugly attitude, I’m sorry.

Comment #242: Ellen  on  11/21  at  11:07 AM

There are also real, practical effects on me of attitudes like INTPagans.
1) I end up living in a less safe neighborhood, becuase there are no people to thwart criminals who don’t want to be seen.

Fuck you, phylosopher; I never said that I don’t think parents should let their kids walk to school, or that I wouldn’t take part in an effort to make a neighborhood safer.  Again, you don’t know how I feel about children because you don’t know a goddamn fucking thing about me.  All I said is that you are an asshole for playing God and telling other parents what they should and shouldn’t do and why, and that I actually have met one of the statistics you think is so unimportant.  I am fucking sick of having shit attributed to me that I didn’t say.  All I said - all I said - was that you don’t like other people telling you how to parent, so maybe you should pay other parents the same goddamn courtesy, you controlling fuckwad.

Comment #243: Atheist Feminazi  on  11/21  at  11:14 AM

There are also real, practical effects on me of attitudes like INTPagans.
1) I end up living in a less safe neighborhood, becuase there are no people to thwart criminals who don’t want to be seen.

Also, I think there’s a very weird dichotomy between:

A. Those abduction worries are irrational and it’s totally safe to send your kids to school alone (and you’re crippling them if you don’t).

B. Those abduction worries are completely valid and therefore we need EVERYONE to send their kids to school “alone” so that there are more eyes-on-the-street to scare the criminals away (and if you don’t participate, you love crime).

How can you hold two contradictory positions like this??

I also disagree with:

1. Parents protect their children by supervising them.
2. Abductions are rare.
3. Therefore, parents should stop supervising their children because it’s a waste of time.

Is there strong, independent evidence that if all the parents stopped supervising their children, there would be no corresponding uptike in abductions? Because…otherwise it sounds like a nice theory with no evidence.

Comment #244: Ellen  on  11/21  at  11:28 AM

TGP definitely wins the thread.  Well stated, cogent, and reasonable.  Let me quibble with just one small part of it:

There is no reason to suppose America cannot accomplish a task that every other major first world country on the globe has managed to accomplish.

Within cities and for daily suburban and city commuting, I agree with you.  But America is big, and the population is spread out.  It’s a five-hour drive just from Phoenix to Las Vegas, and those two cities are practically desert cousins.  Driving I-40 from Vegas to Knoxville, when I moved out here from California, was a huge eye-opener:  you can drive for hours without seeing much in the way of human habitation.  I can’t think of another major first-world country that is (a) as large, with a population that is (b) as spread out as America’s.

That shouldn’t affect the commuting issue, which is where the real changes have to take place; but it is something that differentiates America from other first-world nations, and is going to be more difficult to address.

Comment #245: elmo  on  11/21  at  11:40 AM

First, INT Pagan

FY< FY< FY <FY< FY<FY<FY< 
there,I’ve got six in one post to your five - do I win?

You and everyone else who preaches a no judgment, tolerance as a universal rule are logically self-contradtctory.  ON a psychological level - you’re lying to yourself.  We all judge, discrimnate if you will-  every single time we choose one action, or follow one model, we are discriminating/judging.

Now, will I take the time in my real world interactions to be diplomatic and get to know someone first before I suggest that this may be a safer neighborhood than they think, yes.  But this is a FUCKING (2 pts) webblog post - I discuss ideas, not your personal choices - I don’t know you, have no desire to know you, etc.  SO your taking it personally is totally asinine.

as for “and that I actually have met one of the statistics you think is so unimportant.”

Unimportant, no.  An aberration, yes.  and it should be treated as such, not as a lifechanging always imminent danger.  As for arguing against walking kids to school - uh…gee what was it this thread started out about?

Comment #246: phylosopher  on  11/21  at  11:50 AM

Ellen, Ellen, Ellen:

This thread is about walking instead of driving.  SO I have no objection to people walking their kids to school - as a matter of fact, I encouraged it (see walking bus post).
I do object to the idea that the little darlings need to be protected from the elements -  ever see a kid bundled up like a caterpillar - but s/he goes from the house through heated garage to car and then gets dropped off ten feet from school entrance? ANd mommy says, it was too cold (35 degrees) to let them walk liek 3 blocks.

As for the supposed dichotomy, there is none, it’s not an all or nothing proposition.  Numerous studies have been done on the effectiveness of neighborhood watch programs (formal and informal) ALso on making sure your new home has windows on all sides.  More eyes/people on the street means less crime - period-it’s an incremental change that occurs.  No, criminals aren’t out lurking on every corner, but dead neighborhoods present opportunity - criminals come into the dead’burbs. (ANd stuff thieves are a different set than child predators).  But even child predators avoid groups of kids.

As for your read of me - that my mantra is “life would be nicer if everyone behaved like me” - uhm, no.  LIfe would be better if everyone saw themselves as part of a community, too, instead of solely as an individual - with correspondent responsibilty to the community. 

Which is, I think the crux of the mass transit lack/resistance.

Comment #247: phylosopher  on  11/21  at  12:07 PM

Well, phylosopher, I think it’s telling that you managed to completely ignore everything that INTPagan and I wrote.

I hope that - when I do have children - I never become so full of myself that I presume what another parent does with their OWN children (about who they know much more than I) is “wrong” when the subject is how the dress, transport, and otherwise daily care for the children.

But, then, I tend to view other adults as at least as intelligent as me, and I tend to view children as unique individuals with unique needs, not as a one-size-fits-all sweater. You appear to have the opposite attitude - you and you alone know best what everyone should be doing with their lives and children and they should listen to you, in fact, if they don’t listen to you, they are bad / stupid / horrible people.

Wingnut close-mindedness acheived.

Comment #248: Ellen  on  11/21  at  12:17 PM

Hi All….... bloke from the land of proper public transportation checking in…...

Thanks for your positive feedback, it’s nice to see these comments are going completely to waste.

(although, I’ve got to say, Amanda owns the thread for being the one to highlight the major issue “public transport is pleasant’ that led to all this discussion, it’s a point that I wholeheartedly agree with….. and had never thought of articulating before).

It’s funny, I just went to lunch and was thinking about Elmo’s question above for about half an hour, before coming back and reading that someone had actually posted it ! I was already aware the US population is sited very differently than the EU and UK populations.

As far as I can see there are three answers to it….

1) The EU, taken as a whole, is about the same size and the same population as the US. The spread of that population may be different than in the US, but that might be a function OF good public transport rather than being an obstacle to it. I.e. europes population is more ‘clustered’ than the US’s because, not in spite of, the public transportation. If the US built a proper European style system you might find your population ‘clusters’ becomming more and more suitable to that system, in fact I’m willing to bet you will….... people WILL move to be closer to the ‘train station’ iof the train station is a advantage to them. Train Stations (at least in the EU/UK) raise property prices BECAUSE everyone wants to live near them. It’s a positive boon to live near a train station…. and building it will automatically reconfigure the population some to fit it better.

Or, to borrow a movie phrase…........If you build it they will come !

2) I understand that there are huge spaces in the US where public transportation just will never be feasible. If you are looking at “1 household per square mile” there is no public transport system (except for teleportation booths) that is ever going to be usable or efficient.

Public transport (like the old airlines) is a hub to hub thing….. or a branch to hub thing….. it is NOT efficient in a branch-to-branch mode. It usually forces you through the hub to do that, and that makes it more time consuming, expensive and less palatable.

I would suggest that, in those areas, ‘green high milage’ or ‘electric’ cars are going to be the only green answer. Public tranbsport is ONLY suitable for those in a city, or within 50-100 miles of one, really. And only then for trips into/out of/within that city.

Fortunately, and I haven’t looked up the stats on this, but that puts (in my ‘pull numbers out my ass’ estimate) about 80% of the US population within reach of that public transportation. The rest will have to ‘make do’ with their electric cars.

3) A sparsely populated country can make it EASIER to build a public transport infrastrusture in that country rather than harder. This is because of the simple reason that train lines, bus stations, train stations, tram stations and car parking for all of the above take land.

You can’t imagine the problems that must be overcome to ‘build a new rail line’ in the UK. We have 1/4 of the US’s population in an area 1/3rd the size of Texas if you can imagine that population density. The south east of england is THE most densley populated area of the planet for it’s size bar none.

When we build new rail lines etc. etc. the cost of the land is astronomical AND we have to ‘pick a route’ through hundereds of miles of highly-urbanised land, knocking down houses and previously existing buildings as we go. This raises costs dramatically.

Can you imagine how long that process takes ? Getting planning permission, issuing executive orders for forced buyouts of thousands of different houses from thousands of different home owners, knocking all that down and then .... and only then….... building the rail ine ? All of this in the most densely populated place on the planet. It’s a frigging nightmare.

America’s “Urban Sprawl” is an advantage in this situation….... lower land prices.. and more room to “thread lines through” existing low usage areas, skirting already built up areas. This is something that the UK simply cannot do. They ARE no ‘unbuilt up areas’ anymore. Or at least, there aren’t any that we don’t want to keep because we WANT to keep some green stuff around somewhere.

I’m not saying that, overall, it’s not a problem….... but that America’s ‘wide open spaces’ offer opportunity as well as problems to public transportation.

[More in the next post….......]

Comment #249: TGP  on  11/21  at  12:21 PM

[..........Continuing from above]

Basically, I’ll sum all this up by saying Public Transportation is NOT a universally applicable panacea….... it IS, however, a reasonable and efficient panacea for about 80% of the places where people live.

Elmo’s chosen example…... Pheonix (wherever that is, Lol) to Las Vegas sounds to me like a prime candidate for a high speed rail line. One that would (if built to European specs) would cut that 5 hour drive to a 1 1/2 hour train ride…...AND…. One that could be built on extremely inexpensive and uncluttered land in a desert (wheras in europe a 300 mile+ rail line would meander accross a lot of very expensive and built up land). My government would be willing to amputate and donate a major limb to have 300 miles of desert to build it’s rail lines through !

I think you are going to have to say to yourselves….... leave the 20% of the population who live in the Boonies out of this, at least for now. They can either sort themselves out in other ways (see Car, Electric) or will be something we get to a decade or two down the line once the low hanging fruit has been picked…...... right NOW pick that low hanging fruit !

Anyone who lives in a city.. or lives within 50-100 miles of that city and wants to commute in… has to be given the option of a proper, reliable, economic public transport system that does that FIRST.

Only once you have done that, and reaped the benefits from that, can you decide whether it’s worth extending that out 100-200-300 miles from the city or not.

Yours,

TGP

Comment #250: TGP  on  11/21  at  12:22 PM

And, to elaborate, because - frankly - this holier-than-thou attitude sickens me:

I do object to the idea that the little darlings need to be protected from the elements…

I would like to inform you of something that you seem to be unaware of: you are not god.

If a mother - any mother - tells you that it’s too cold out for her child, it is the rational, sane, adult response to take her word for it and assume that she knows what she is talking about. She is, after all the one who has been feeding, clothing, caring for, wiping noses, and otherwise looking after this child its entire life.

Geez, if I said it was too cold out for my car to shift properly, I actually expect you’d believe that, but a human being? They’re all exactly the same and you - YOU, Dr. Spock - know what those stupid cow-mothers don’t:

The exact temperature at which “too cold out” is acheived.

Comment #251: Ellen  on  11/21  at  12:22 PM

3) Backpack - put between feet, one foot on or even through strap.  Grab train strap - read.  I used to live in NYC - you can do academic work on the train/bus whatever - taking 23 credit hours a semester - you figure out things like that - even have a way to make shower time productive.) - phyloosopher

Have you ever actually been on a full NYC subway?  There is no room to do this sort of thing.  I do have balance issues that make strap-hanging difficult enough as it is (and yes, I can and have done work carrying the kid on my back ... strap-hanging is more difficult than that for me).

As to the issue of making all time productive ... some of us can’t function like that.  I am overwhelmed by my life as it is.  You expect me to have less breathing space?  Does this make me a male pig because some women (including my lovely wife and thank goodness for that) are able to have much more endurance than I?  Well, if it does it does.

Anyway, even if I do all the things you suggest I do and everything works and I’m able to have more productive time, etc.—that is a COST of taking public transport as opposed to driving.  There is this thought that those of us who drive are “clinging” to driving irrationally.  No!  We are making rational decisions about which mode of transport is best for us.  Yes ... I could take public transport going through all the hoops that phylosopher has oh so cleverly demonstrated I can go through if I put enough thought/work into doing so.  But that is WORK!  That is COST!  If you want me to take public transport to work (which I would gladly do), then make public transport COST less (or driving cost more ... but that would just make me more bitter and angry ... and resentful) ... make more of it, etc.  But, to take the inverse of a movie line, if you don’t build it they won’t come.  But what is the MTA doing?  They are CUTTING BACK?!?  (BTW—- how is it they are loosing money ... considering how packed subway cars are, you’d think they are raking it in!).

If this is the attitude of the environmental/feminist left, however, I don’t wanna hear any whining about “how come poor people don’t support us?”  “how come group [X] doesn’t support us?”  You ain’t gonna win over poor people, people with disabilities, et al., by making liberalism a contest of who can have the most personal virtues when those virtues have significant costs to them.

Many people have this idea of liberals as moralizing know-it-alls who claim to love the poor, but propose all sorts of good ideas that have significant costs to working people of all sorts while somehow only managing to stand up for “the rights of icky people to do icky things”.  I know enough liberals (myself, my family, etc) to know that not all of us are like that.  But some liberals certainly do seem to match this stereotype.  And that stereotype hurts us liberals.  And hurts the very causes that all of us here (even me ... even phylosopher) at least claim to support.

Comment #252: DAS  on  11/21  at  12:24 PM

Now, will I take the time in my real world interactions to be diplomatic and get to know someone first before I suggest that this may be a safer neighborhood than they think, yes.  But this is a FUCKING (2 pts) webblog post - I discuss ideas, not your personal choices - I don’t know you, have no desire to know you, etc.  SO your taking it personally is totally asinine.

I didn’t take it personally until you made it personal, moron, the way that you did with Ellen.  Since this is a forum to discuss ideas maybe you shouldn’t resort to insulting or mocking people the second they differ with you. 

Unimportant, no.  An aberration, yes.  and it should be treated as such, not as a lifechanging always imminent danger.  As for arguing against walking kids to school - uh…gee what was it this thread started out about?

And if you could kindly point out to me where I said it was a lifechanging, always imminent danger, I would be thrilled.  I said that perhaps you should keep in mind that other people may see things differently than you, and that maybe you should actually try to put yourself in their shoes - like, say, people who are disabled, or people who have known kids who were abducted.  You have the right to your own personal opinion, but whenever you start being an asshole about it you can expect to be called out on it, and you did just that.  It would be one thing if you had simply disagreed respectfully, but your first reply was to automatically lump me in with people who don’t give a shit about other kids and who won’t do a damn thing to try and help the community when, again, you don’t know me.  I do not personally have the attitude that the entire world is a risky place and my little prince and princess shouldn’t have to be dirtied by dealing with other people or walking or whatever your problem is - but I know people who are concerned that their children could get hurt and, frankly, I’ve lived in areas where it’s likely (even if it’s not abduction, there are places where there’s a good chance your kid will come home with the hell beat out of them by older kids).  I am not going to tell other parents what is and is not a legitimate concern.  I am not going to judge other people as intellectually inferior simply because they disagree with me about something.  If I feel like it’s important for another person to hear an alternative viewpoint then there’s a good chance that I will talk to them about it; however, I think resorting immediately to calling people lazy and stupid is the most moronic approach I have ever heard to persuading.  I’m willing to deal respectfully with people who approach things in a respectful manner; however, if you’re going to automatically leap with insults and generalizations about shit you don’t know about then yes, I will tell you to go fuck yourself, and, if you have a problem with it, you’re the one who started the pattern of asshattery in this thread in the first place with your replies to DAS.

Comment #253: Atheist Feminazi  on  11/21  at  12:26 PM

Many people have this idea of liberals as moralizing know-it-alls who claim to love the poor, but propose all sorts of good ideas that have significant costs to working people of all sorts while somehow only managing to stand up for “the rights of icky people to do icky things”.  I know enough liberals (myself, my family, etc) to know that not all of us are like that.  But some liberals certainly do seem to match this stereotype.  And that stereotype hurts us liberals.  And hurts the very causes that all of us here (even me ... even phylosopher) at least claim to support.

DAS FTW.  I’m personally not capable of maintaining that kind of cool when replying to people who outright insist on being assholes.

Comment #254: Atheist Feminazi  on  11/21  at  12:30 PM

Ahhh TGP - so, so, right.  OUr city-city train is called Amtrak.  But it has been so butcheized it’s a joke.  We’re just starting to talk about Maglev here.  There’s also the train/plane problem. 

The thing is, most outer rings once had passenger transport (back when teh daily milk needed to be shipped in from the farms).  We need to recliam those old rights of way pronto.

Comment #255: phylosopher  on  11/21  at  12:30 PM

TGP -
More very cogent points; thanks.  I wish I could post a picture of the Western US here, because your post has me thinking about the challenges involved in constructing a high-speed rail corridor that connects Phoenix, Vegas, Salt Lake City, Albuquerque, and Denver, with maybe another line connecting Vegas to Los Angeles and hooking into the existing Amtrak network up the coast.

There are existing Amtrak routes that serve parts of this area, but they run parallel to each other; great if you’re going east-west, not so great if you need to go north-south.  And of course they’re not high-speed, so they can’t compete with air travel on timeliness.

Comment #256: elmo  on  11/21  at  12:46 PM

@DAS
As your recent post has shown, my characterization of you as lazy was SPOT ON.  It is work and some planning and the cost of a backpack and clipboard initially.  THe only reason you don’t think of your car as work (oil, gas, tire pressure) is because it’s become habit.

Though your thinking is convoluted in that you don’t see the advantages, as Amanda’s thread title pointed out.  ANd that was what the thread started out as - ways to make it possible and to look at it lucidly. 

Service cuts - yeah, that’ll happen if not enough people utilize the services - and I’m the first one screaming about , supporting etc. additional services if they’re utilized.  Just asking you to do your part. 

OH, lived in NYC in the late 70’s and again in the mid ‘90’s - Village and midtown, briefly in Harlem and Queens - some travel to Stoneybrooke.  Yes, I’ve made like a sardine, too.

Comment #257: phylosopher  on  11/21  at  01:29 PM

NO dear INTPAGAN.  It was DAS’ claim of a careful cost benefit analysis - leaving out the very thing that Amanda’s article had pointed out.  There are many otherwise abhorrent, impractical things that can be supported by selective editing of costs.

ANd now, I have some real work to do in the real world where, INT Pagan whoever or whatever you are, as am I - so many switches on or off in a computer program.

Comment #258: phylosopher  on  11/21  at  01:52 PM

I’m starting to wonder if the assumption is wrong: perhaps the reason why the dog stays on the couch even if you think the doggy bed is more comfortable is because the doggy bed is not as comfortable to the dog as you might think.

Am I too lazy to do the work to take public transport?  Perhaps ... but that’s the point.  If the doggy bed requires the dog to do work to change over to it, is it really such a good deal as you might think?  I have enough on my plate.  I don’t need to spend time to figure out how to make a commute that, even if it consists of time I might utilize to do work and make my plate less full in the long term, involves a three hour trip home work for me. 

And I’m a lucky one.  Imagine people who are not as privileged as I.  Supposing I was just privileged enough to have a car but now I hear liberals tell me I am teh evil for driving and that I should take public transport even though it involves a huge switching-over cost to do so .. and if I am not willing to do that work/pay that cost up front I am lazy?  How do you think I’d feel about liberalism and liberals if that is my experience with the left?  That they say, as squeezed as I am, I should SPEND more time and incur more costs?  If I am not doing so well already, I’m gonna think of liberalism as a privilege that I can ill afford and reject it in its entirety.

As to the issue of people utilizing the services: I’d hardly say subway lines where people are packed like sardines, bus lines where buses have to skip stops because they can’t fit any more people are being under utilized.

Comment #259: DAS  on  11/21  at  02:06 PM

You could have a dog that sleeps on your couch and it’s not enough to buy him a softer, more appealing bed.  You have to put laundry baskets on the couch so he can’t get up there and has to resort to using the bed, and only then will he find out that it is indeed more pleasant to sleep on the bed.

I’m starting to wonder if the assumption is wrong: perhaps the reason why the dog stays on the couch even if you think the doggy bed is more comfortable is because the doggy bed is not as comfortable to the dog as you might think.

I’m currently in puppy training and am proof that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but DAS, you are right about the puppy mentality here.

Dogs are not stupid. They do the things that are most rewarding to them. Amanda’s analogy is flawed because she assumes that the puppy just doesn’t realize the bed is more comfortable because they haven’t tried it and they won’t know until you make them try it (with the idea that humans don’t realize that public transportation is awesome until they try it). The analogy breaks down because, unless you have a very unusual puppy, they went to investigate the bed as soon as you put it on the floor.

If they went back to the couch, the answer is not to block access to the couch - the puppy will come back to the couch as soon as those laundry baskets are removed. Instead, we train our puppy with lots of praise and treats when, YAY!, puppy in on the puppy bed!! Click, click, click, good dog! Then and only then does the puppy prefer the bed, because the benefits of the bed (soft, warm, praise, happy humans) are better, as a whole, than the benefits of the couch (softer, yes, but without praise and happy humans).

None of this is meant to reflect on Amanda’s underlying point - just that the analogy isn’t perfect, and that laundry baskets don’t work for dog training. smile

Comment #260: Ellen  on  11/21  at  03:31 PM

Am I too lazy to do the work to take public transport?

I feel like this is a false dichotomy created by Privileged People.

Kind of like how working single mothers are “too lazy” after an 11 hour shift to cook their kids wholesome meals from scratch, so it’s their fault that the kids are unhealthy or overweight.

It doesn’t work that way. This isn’t a “who is more virtuous” question, as TGP so aptly pointed out. smile

Comment #261: Ellen  on  11/21  at  03:33 PM

OH, lived in NYC in the late 70’s and again in the mid ‘90’s - Village and midtown, briefly in Harlem and Queens - some travel to Stoneybrooke.  Yes, I’ve made like a sardine, too.

No one I knew who lived in NYC during the 1980’s would be crazy enough to be concentrating on a task that would make someone an easier mugging/beating target by gangs of rowdy youths/young adults….especially reading a book…something those rowdy gangs would use as justification to start beating up on passengers…..even during rush hour when I commuted/from school.  Experienced this both firsthand and as a witness…..and most other passengers were usually too frightened/disinterested to pay any heed, much less help the victims of said attacks. 

As for the 1990s, especially in the mid-part….that was when the violent crime rate in NYC subways/buses had already started to decrease substantially.  As I said before, I’m far more likely to read/zone out now on the subways/buses than I or most passengers would have back in the crime-ridden 1980s. 

Heck, I even see people happily concentrating on using their expensive high-end notebook computers on the subways even while transversing “dangerous neighborhoods” in NYC….....something only a clueless out-of-towner or someone blase about becoming a mugging/violent attack victim would do back in the 1980s if such notebooks existed.

Comment #262: exholt  on  11/21  at  03:34 PM

I feel like this is a false dichotomy created by Privileged People.

Kind of like how working single mothers are “too lazy” after an 11 hour shift to cook their kids wholesome meals from scratch, so it’s their fault that the kids are unhealthy or overweight.

Thank you! I have been reaching for this analogy for at least 100 posts now, ever since someone went off on the Social Control Of Women thing. Like seriously? You don’t see how choice-shaming works both ways? Anyhow, what DAS said. It’s easy for you to tell someone *else* to submit to a 3 hour commute. It’s easy for you to tell someone *else* where they ought to live. And it’s EASIEST to call someone *else* lazy for doing what they feel they gotta do, to get by. But all three do fuck all for actual progress.

Seconding whoever said above that the key is not to trick us into liking the shitty dog bed…the key is to ACTUALLY make the bed a better option. In 90% of the country, public transit is shoddy, poorly-maintained, and even dangerous (and no, not in the phantom urban menace way, in the “hey! we haven’t replaced our brakes in 30 years!” way). It’s neither a more peaceful nor more convenient way to get anywhere. And that is one big reason, frankly, that people consider it a last resort. Make it a better resort, and it won’t be last.

Comment #263: Well, what?  on  11/21  at  03:43 PM

Nonsense, Well, what?.  Everyone who disagrees with anyone is an idiot and is lazy and stupid and should just be shot in the street for all the good they do humanity, and if you disagree with that then you’re a moron.

/snark

Comment #264: INTPagan  on  11/21  at  03:48 PM

Guys, can we just get back on the thread?  We have all acknowledged that we are talking specifically about people who CAN improve their transport, but choose not to do so for selfish reasons (as in reasons such as “I’m too lazy to walk five blocks to the store to get milk”, NOT for reasons such as bad public transportation, health reasons, kids, etc etc etc etc)


NOW as for me - what I am doing personally to improve is that I’ve examined some of my own bad habits and am trying to improve. For instance, i don’t really NEED to drive to work everyday. I have alternatives and live in a city with a public transportation structure that allows me to take the bus to work, so I have started doing that.  I’ve also taken advantage of the location of my work to start picking up groceries and other supplies, a few at a time (using canvas bags), and bringing them to home instead of driving back and forth, and going to the store for milk (I’ve been guilty of this). Now I’m able to reduce my shopping trips to once a week, and drive to work once a week, at the most.  I’ve done a lot on part, and I’m proud of that.  Unfortunately, my public transportation is not arranged so I can go to social events as easily, so that’s when I drive.  I do try to bunch it all together by running errands (going to the store or whatever) either before or after I go to the store, so I never end up going out just to complete one errand at a time.  I also try to determine what errands I can do near my work, so I can pop out during my free time and get them done in the neighborhood right there. 
One another example is that I had a foot problem for the longest time, but I wasn’t serious about getting medical care, so I finally told myself, “buck down, go to the doc, and do what you know you’re SUPPOSED to do.  and when your foot is better, you can walk more and work towards reducing your carbon footprint, as well as be in better shape.”  So I sucked it up, went to the doctor and got it taken care of. 

We all can look at the options we do have and use that as our way to contribute, if we are able.

So, what are you guys doing to use public transportation more (disclaimer: I’m NOT talking about people who can’t, have health problems, etc etc etc etc.. I don’t want to derail again)>


SO.. What are you doing?  What can you do? And what are you doing to do that?

Comment #265: melaka  on  11/21  at  04:24 PM

So, what are you guys doing to use public transportation more

Melaka, my point is that this situation has moved beyond “everyone just make better choices!” We need systemic overhaul. Whether you or I take the train any given day is not enough to revolutionize this situation. Yes, great, if everyone who has a system uses it, that will keep those systems from shutting down (in theory. The CTA is crowded as ever, but it keeps slowly shutting down lines). But that is not enough anymore. What will make the big difference is if we all pressure our representatives to act on implementing better mass transit across the nation, and outside of urban centers.

Comment #266: Well, what?  on  11/21  at  04:40 PM

Well, what - I completely agree with you. Of course!  I’ve voted for improving public transportation and put my dollars towards that.

But of course, each of us, individually, can also make our own choices that support public transportation or at least reduce our driving habits.  That’s what I was asking about.  Little changes in our lives really do add up.

Comment #267: melaka  on  11/21  at  04:42 PM

@DAS
Dude, threatening to not like us liberals anymore is not the answer.  If this was a sandbox, you just threatened to leave and take all your toys.

If you have it in your head that you *should* take public transportation, but choose not to because it is more convenient for you to take the other option, that is not a bad thing.  It would be bad if you didn’t have it in your head at all.  This way, when you see the better option, you will choose it.  The problem is with people who don’t think public transportation is great, and are actively against it (enraged with buses, seething with hate at the HoV lane, ridiculing people for having smaller cars, spreding fear about bus and train users.)

Comment #268: raspberryjamba  on  11/21  at  05:28 PM

raspberryjamba, I don’t feel that DAS was threatening to not like liberals - I feel that he was saying that, as a liberal, he feels that you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Comment #269: Ellen  on  11/21  at  05:33 PM

Just to add another dimension: you all do know that you basically use oil when you walk or bike, right? In fact, it turns out if you eat mostly meat (especially beef) then you might use more oil walking than driving (see here).

Comment #270: JohnL  on  11/21  at  05:34 PM

Just to add another dimension: you all do know that you basically use oil when you walk or bike, right? In fact, it turns out if you eat mostly meat (especially beef) then you might use more oil walking than driving (see here).

But wouldn’t that be dependent on whether the person in question upped their food consumption when they walk?  I know that it seems as if it is a logical progression to start eating more whenever you start burning more carbs, but, at the same time, there was little to no difference in my eating habits whenever I exercised regularly and whenever I sat on my ass most of the time.  (That is not good for me, I know, and has contributed to weight gain on my part.)

Also, is this taking into consideration whether the people who drive work out regularly or have another form of exercise they participate in?

Comment #271: Atheist Feminazi  on  11/21  at  05:39 PM

When you do more you use more calories, of course that doesn’t mean you eat more. If your commute biking or walking is part of your exercise program, then it could be you use no extra calories/oil (so you are saving oil). The web site is just making sure we know that eating uses oil—they estimate that .435 gallons of gasoline (or equivalent) are used to make a pound of beef (as opposed to .003 gallons for a pound of potatoes).

Comment #272: JohnL  on  11/21  at  06:02 PM

I feel that he was saying that, as a liberal, he feels that you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. - Ellen

What an interesting coincidence.  I was just about to come back here to follow up with things by pointing out “as my dad always says, ‘you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar”.  You from Kansas or Missouri?  I think my dad picked up that expression from our relatives in that part of the country.

BTW—your point about “privileged people” is one I whole-heartedly endorse.  We could spend a whole ‘nother 100 posts discussing the issue of who gets to decide who is privileged.  Indeed, hundreds of comments have been written about this very debate ...

Comment #273: DAS  on  11/21  at  06:05 PM

Re: the discussion about European vs. American public transit.  No one has mentioned Canada, so I wonder what kind of public transit system they have.  After all, Canada is even bigger than the US (although they have less population).  It seems to me that if they have good public transit, some of their models might be even more applicable to the US situation that Europe’s.  Anybody know?

Comment #274: Daughter  on  11/21  at  06:12 PM

DAS, is it a regional expression? I picked it up from my Dad, who is from Missouri. Interesting. I don’t usually hear too many other people here (Texas) say it, but then again, I have a lot of out-dated sayings that are just no longer in vogue here.

I never really understood Privilege until this last election and it finally really hit home in a tangible way how much different I have it, being white. Now the floodgates are open because I can see that there are many different kinds of privilege. It’s good, in a way, because I can understand that someone isn’t putting me down (“lazy”), rather they are unintentionally ignorant of their own Privilege.

It’s bad, though, in that not everyone is open to the idea that they - in some way they probably never really realized - have it so much better than a lot of the rest of us.

Comment #275: Ellen  on  11/21  at  06:48 PM

“public transportation” and"Canada” hardly go together at all, not like it used to when trains crossed the country and Greyhound used to run through places like Atikokan and Fort Frances.  It’s getting worse in the public transportation department.  The exception is only in major cities.  I name Montreal, Vancouver and Toronto as the main cities with decent transportation which of course could still be improved a whole lot.  Outside of a major city, you need to drive.  Period.  In many places, the only way out without a car is by hitchhiking or finding someone with a car who’s going your way.

Comment #276: Margaret Metsala  on  11/21  at  07:48 PM

@John L
Totally.  Some of us have done the switch to organic, local and grassfed, when possible but it might be too expensive for others.  In any case, walking for errands saves you a couple gallon’s worth of drives to the gym!

Comment #277: raspberryjamba  on  11/21  at  08:00 PM

“Yet, I have never once seen a bicyclist sit through a red light if there are no cars coming.  Usually they just ride through without looking, and yell at whoever gets in their way, or whatever driver has to slam on his brakes to avoid them. “

Yeah, sure. I mean, who wouldn’t just plow right into traffic without looking?

You’re full of it.

Comment #278: scarshapedstar  on  11/22  at  06:12 PM
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