Minor quibble - it’s not voltage that causes death, but the amount of current.  IIRC, 0.01 Amperes is sufficient to cause a deadly cardiac irregularity.

</nerd>

The statement is inherently stupid.  Any force or trauma is capable of causing death to a person, depending on circumstance or illness.  That’s a poker tell—he’s wrong and he knows it, so he establishes an inherently stupid position.

I do know that Kentucky State Troopers undergo training before they are issued a taser. They even have it used on them as part of the training. I only know this because I have a friend who is a Trooper and I have the video of him getting tased. The fact that there are police forces that don’t have training is inexcusable.

Numerous objects that people would otherwise consider completely harmless can be used to kill or harm someone. Cops who are handed these weapons (that’s what they are, despite the claims of the companies that make these things) are given something that, while less lethal than a handgun, are STILL LETHAL.

A person’s -fists- are lethal. And all too often, cops are buying into the hype these companies throw around that say “Oh, these things are completely harmless” despite the fact that they can not only cause death but, if they don’t cause death, can cause severe burns at the impact point.

I could just say “more training is needed” but that only solves part of the problem. The other part of the problem is keeping tasers out of the hands of cops who get off on the power trip (which sadly, is frequently only something you can see while a cop is on duty).

I would argue that the issue is less with Taser International’s ridiculous statement (although it deserves a lot of ridicule for the sheer “WTF?!” factor) and more with cops who see the taser as a cure-all, and the culture that says they can wield it with impugnity.

Tasers have to be treated as lethal weapons that often fail to kill, rather than as non-lethal weapons that occasionally kill.

WOW…as usual Pam you need to get your facts right before posting your crap.  First, according the coronor’s report, Derrick Jones DID NOT die from the taser.  Second, it is impossible for the taser to cycle for 31 seconds, it only runs on 5 second cycles, if the officer recycled 3 times that would be 15 seconds. And finally, there are standards that officers have to meet in order to carry a taser.  There is classroom time, a written test, and a practical exercise using the taser, including each officer has to be tased.  SO, yet again and at no big suprise, you continually post false information and play the race card YET again.  Keep up the great work!!!

Taser FAIL

First, according the coronor’s report, Derrick Jones DID NOT die from the taser.

According to the news report I saw, the coroner could not conclusively prove that the taser blast killed Jones.

And, impossible? Not according to CBS News/AP:

In August 2008, Athena Bachtel, watched as her son was tasered after arguing with Moberly police during a traffic stop. Stanley Harlan, 23, was stunned three times for a total of 31 seconds. He collapsed and went into cardiac arrest. For 14 minutes he received no medical attention. By the time paramedics arrived, it was too late.

Moberly Missouri settled the Harlan case for 2.4 million dollars. http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/05/14/crimesider/entry5013690.shtml

I think a lot of people in authority seem to be using tasers as part of a generalized “only the strong survive” policy. Sure, a taser is highly unlikely to kill a healthy adult with no pre-existing cardiac or central-nervous-system problems. But it’s pretty clear at this point that police are using tasers under circumstances where not only wouldn’t they consider guns (also pretty nonlethal in most police hands, for better or worse) but where they wouldn’t consider nightsticks.

And no one would be OK with a policy of randomly hitting citizens with nightsticks and then complaining that those who were injured must have particularly weak bones.

Really, the coroner’s report conclusively said that Derrick Jones did not die from the taser?  You’ve seen the report?

The links I found only say that the autopsy was inconclusive.  And he did die after the taser was used, where he was not dead before it was used, and he wasn’t shot to death, so I think it’s reasonable to conclude that the taser had something to do with it.

The video said the taser was applied to Stanley Harlen 3 times for a total of 31 seconds.  It doesn’t say that the taser was actually activated during all that time.  As far as a “5-second cycle,” I’ve never seen any indication that you can’t just hold down the button as long as you like.

The Columbia police chief talked about the taser as “less lethal,” not non-lethal.  Maybe he was just being careful, but still the evidence is clear that people CAN die from being tasered, because people HAVE died from being tasered.  So the taser company’s statement is ridiculous on its face.

First, according the coronor’s report, Derrick Jones DID NOT die from the taser.

Since Taser sues coroners who put the Taser as the cause of death in their reports, I’m not surprised the coroner didn’t report it that way.  People will do a lot to avoid a lawsuit.

“Police officers must often make split-second decisions in tense, rapidly-evolving situations.”

For example, when a young man is standing in his front yard with his hands raised saying “I’m not resisting,” that is a tense, rapidly-evolving situation where the officer must make a split-second decision to deploy his taser, because clearly that is what a suspect does just before charging the officer with intent to inflict harm on him.

The electrical output of a taser device is incapable of causing death.

It wasn’t the bullet that killed him.  He just failed to clot fast enough.

My god, I want to line these yahoos up in a court of law, right before they’re trucked out into the court of public opinion.  Then beaten with a sack of hammers that are too light to cause serious injury.

The electrical output of a taser device is incapable of causing death.

You know, if a baseball hits you in the chest at the wrong moment, it can screw up the rhythm of your heart and kill you.  I find it hard to believe that shooting electricity into someone’s body couldn’t possibly kill them, ever.

“Police officers must often make split-second decisions in tense, rapidly-evolving situations.”

“tense, rapidly-evolving situations” = The Perp is Black…

The taser was always meant to be used as an alternative to discharging a firearm.  Unfortunately, it now seems that more often it is used in the place of things like batons, pepper spray and defensive unarmed combat techniques, or even to force a completely passive subject to comply with police orders.  That simply can’t be tolerated.

Here’s a quick overview of Macroshock (ordinary electrical shock) vs. Microshock (possibly produced by a Taser?):

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/173038.html

Microshock is of high concern in medical settings because the currents needed to cause cardiac fibrillation are so low that the patient might not even feel them… until they can never feel anything again…

Is “cookie” one of TAYZERR®‘s paid spokesbloggers?

Is “cookie\” one of TAYZERR®’s paid spokesbloggers?

No.  S/he simply believes that if the police do it, it’s not a crime.

That’s dead wrong. Shoot electricity directly through a heart and it takes a LOT less than a taser’s output to kill. They’re really saying that something that can jumble up a nervous system won’t frazzle the heart if applied directly??

Not to mention the ability to kill someone who is epileptic whose condition 1) can cause non-compliance (since they have no control over their nervous system at the time) and 2) in which an electrical shock can prevent the brain from regulating itself post-seizure.

There’s been a lot of work done on the effect of Tasers on the electrical activity of the heart.  Some of it has been done in pigs (anesthetized so that they do not feel pain), and some in healthy volunteers (often police officers).  The general consensus is that given the electrode positioning, and the amount of current flowing, it can’t cause problems.  And in the pigs and healthy volunteers, it hasn’t caused problems.

The problem is that much of the research has been funded by Taser International, so it’s hard to know how far to trust it.  To my knowledge, not a lot of research has been done on the effect of tasers on non-healthy people, people with underlying cardiac conditions or people on drugs (legal or illegal—yes, legal prescription drugs can affect the electrical activity in your heart, even ones that aren’t prescribed for anything to do with the heart).

And fundamentally, the fact remains that people are dying after being tasered.  Empirical evidence trumps everything.  Something is happening, and we don’t know what.  Maybe this should make us rethink handing out tasers like candy and shooting people with them at the drop of a hat.

I actually just attended a biomedical engineering conference where there was an entire oral session on tasers.  Sadly, I wasn’t able to attend that session (there were two other sessions more directly related to my line of work that had to take priority), but I do have the short papers that were presented there.  Haven’t had a chance to read them yet.  I bet that was an interesting Q&A;session, though.

You list doesn’t include the ‘I thought I was tasing him when I shot him’ excuse, Pam.

Anyhow, if they taze someone and that situation wasn’t appropriate for a gun, then they should be fined and penalized.  Grr.

S/he simply believes that if the police do it to a black man, it’s not a crime.

Fixed it for you.

“Tasers have to be treated as lethal weapons that often fail to kill, rather than as non-lethal weapons that occasionally kill.”

Which is what the Santa Cruz PD does. If a Taser is used, there’s an automatic investigation regardless of injury level, to see if there really was a danger to the officers or public requiring the use of extreme force. Of course, one still hopes the investigation is serious, but at least there’s an official understanding that the Taser is only a half-step down from gun use and the result is that the officers very rarely use them.

gwangung, yeah, it does vary in the real world.  The theory is that no position it could conceivably take would cause death given the voltage.

snowmentality:

the (semitechnical) versions of those research reports that I’ve read suggest that the work suffers from both small N (When you’re tasering thousands or tens of thousands of people, a couple hundred research subjects don’t tell you squat) and a very limited model of what the dangers might be (in particular, what I’ve read about asks only whether a taser can deliver enough current to physically damage the heart or stop it, but not whether it can screw up heart rhythm). I’d be interested to see what you think of the papers you got.

the taser is supposed to be (and is marketed and promoted as such) a non-lethal alternative to lethal force; it instead of a gun.

if that’s the case, and police forces are employing it in that capacity (non-lethal alternative), than it logically should only be employed in those instances where the use of lethal force ordinarily would be, in the absence of the taser.

the pattern demonstrated by nearly every one of the fatal uses of the taser, were in situations that, according to most law enforcement jurisdictions, would not be a “lethal force” qualifier. what this tells me is either:

a. the taser is not being employed as a non-lethal alternative, only in life threatening situations, but as a standard use option, much like a night stick, per agency policies. or,

b. the officers themselves are in violation of their force’s policies, with respect to life threatening vs non life threatening situations, in their use of the taser.

it has to be one or the other.

The usual scam is to blame the death on the victim’s presumed use of illicit drugs of the cocaine / amphetamine family, many of which are rapidly metabolized and may be missed on toxicology screens, even if drawn in the ER. So what if the drug can’t be demonstrated? The police or company lawyer will still be able to imply that victim was the sort to abuse drugs, and therefore was somehow to blame for his own death. This works with juries.

Nancyp:

There’s even some evidence that use of illicit stimulants predisposes the heart to weird behaviors over the long term. But all of that blame-the-victim stuff is coming from a really pathologically weird position. In other circumstances an unlawful attacker is strictly liable for the unknown health problems of their victim. If you rob a bank, even with only a note in view, and someone keels over with a heart attack, you’re a murderer.

But not when you have a badge and use a fancy gadget.

The taser was always meant to be used as an alternative to discharging a firearm.

No, no, no, a thousand times NO!  The taser and other less-than-lethal weapons in its class are marketed and intended to be a replacement for batons and hard handed control techniques, on the theory that if the officer dosen’t have to close and engage in hand to hand combat, thereby reducing the chance of serious bodily injury to both the officer and the arrestee.  That said, I think many of my collegues are far to quick to go to the Taser.

Pam:

If you Google some of the names on the list of “taser deaths” you find that the story is more complicated and the evidence that tasers were to blame is not conclusive.  In one case, the suspect actually managed to stab himself in the chest.  In another, he had congestive heart failure, ran from the hospital and was fighting in someone’s home when he was tased.  But he’s listed here as being killed by cop’s taser because a taser was used.  There isn’t strong evidence yet that tasers kill.  At all.  I’m all for figuring out how to use nonlethal force effectively and safely.  But I really don’t like the assumption that tasers are bad, cops are killers and the situation is out of control.  I know our own police dept as recently upgraded taser usage reporting and enforces strict usage guidelines.  Still, people leap to conclusions and point fingers.  Its extremely frustrating. 

If your job required you to get control of violent, drunk, insane, armed criminals every day for your job you might think more carefully before making so many assumptions.  Fortunately, we get to type on laptops and make our judgments in safety.