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Next entry: Newt’s Flag: Always At Full Mast Previous entry: Link farm and the emotional exhausting men who believe themselves so oppressed

Team Sex Is Dirty and their false assumptions

I was thinking more about the Douthat piece I wrote about here, because I really think it’s kind of interesting what a maddening shithead that guy is.  It’s not just his smug misogyny, or the way that he radiates disgust with human sexuality (especially female sexuality) that is really unnerving in anyone, but especially a still-young man.  It’s not even that he’s demonstrably disingenuous, because he presents arguments that right wing watchers can prove easily he obtained because he engages with fringe conservatives who agitate to ban contraception, but he acts like he’s being reasonable and downplays the radical nature of the arguments he’s presenting. 

No, I think what really sets people off about his is that he’s a genius at packing in more false assumptions per paragraph than almost anyone writing, especially when he’s talking about sex.  Take this, for example:

But they also see Planned Parenthood’s larger worldview — in which teen sexual activity is taken for granted1, and the most important judgment to be made about a sexual encounter is whether it’s clinically “safe”2 — as the enemy of the kind of sexual idealism3 they’re trying to restore4.

Liberals argue, not unreasonably, that Planned Parenthood’s approach is tailored to the gritty realities5 of teenage6 sexuality. But realism can blur into cynicism7, and a jaded attitude8 can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Social conservatives look at the contemporary sexual landscape and remember that it wasn’t always thus9, and they look at current trends and hope10 that it doesn’t have to be this way forever.

Reading some of the other responses to him, I realized exactly how fucked up his argument truly is.  So I’ve taken the time to footnote these sentences, so as to detail out exactly how many false assumptions he smuggles in.

1) There’s a couple of false assumptions, but the first one is that it’s a negative thing—-“taken for granted” is never really a positive thing, is it?—-to believe that teenagers are going to experiment and explore sexuality.  In fact, Douthat assumes this earlier on and concedes the argument that this always was and always will be the behavior of post-pubescent individuals.  But he takes for granted that this is tragic.  I don’t actually think that most people that aren’t sex-phobes or misogynists think it’s a great tragedy that young people start dating and eventually fucking.  When I was in high school, we even had dances where you were encouraged to bring dates!  I’m sure a couple of church ladies believed this could happen without said dates ever considering the possibility of “sexual activity”—-a range of behavior that spans from holding hands to anal intercourse—-but by and large, most people, even conservative-leaning, believe that coming into your sexuality is a major part of growing up.  The timetable is usually more of the point of contention, but not the fact that sexual activity is natural and even desirable. 

Also, Douthat draws on research done on college kids for a bulk of this article, so he’s also suggesting that the widespread assumption that it’s natural and even good for college kids to be having sex is fucked up.  This phrase also assumes, falsely, that Planned Parenthood only serves teenage clients.  It actually serves a wide range of ages.


2) By “clinically ‘safe’”, he means that it doesn’t transmit STDs and unintended pregnancy. He’s not just lying about Planned Parenthood (and frankly all pro-choice) approaches to sex education—-if you actually bother to look, you’ll find that resources from Planned Parenthood to Scarleteen deal heavily in the emotional aspects of sexual relationships—-but he’s also smuggling in the false assumption that the physical act of sexual intercourse is the direct cause of broken hearts and hurt feelings.  In reality, it’s actually how people treat each other, and the gulf between expectations and experiences that cause these things.  Many a virgin has cried over a broken heart, though Douthat denies this.  He also assumes, incorrectly, that having hurt feelings is always a negative thing.  On the contrary, I would say that having your heart broken and going through that pain is just part of life.  The expectation that we should never be sad, we should never feel down, we should never have bad days is kind of fucked up, if you think about it.

3) He’s arguing, falsely, that sexual idealism equals believing sex is dirty and should be avoided.  In fact, pro-choicers and sexual egalitarians are rooted in an optimistic view of sexuality and human nature.  We believe in many ideals: that people can be fair to each other, that pleasure is good, that human sexuality should be celebrated and not shamed, that young people can make healthy choices, that women are equal to men and gay people are equal to straight people.  I’d say we’re way more idealistic than the “sex is dirty and has to be strictly contained so it doesn’t contaminate us all” crowd.

4) They are trying to restore something, but it’s not a time of idealism and awesomeness.  They’re trying to bring back the back alley abortion and an era where they had to put drops in all newborns’ eyes because it was assumed that everyone had a bunch of untreated STDs.  Also, they’re trying to bring back an era when gay bars were raided and the customers thrown in jail for dancing with each other.

5) Again, the assumption that young people having sex is, by definition, a miserable, dirty, horrible thing.  I think I can speak for a lot of us here when I say that actually, there’s a lot of beauty in being young and exploring your sexuality.  In a weird way, it’s tautological—-pleasure is pleasurable.  But I don’t want to be overly simplistic.  Sex can be and is often used for abuse and cruelty.  But the people doing the actual work to make that not-true are feminists and sex educators, the people that Douthat denounces.  But the reason that we believe, idealistically even, that young people can enjoy and learn and grow through their sexuality is that most of us personally had those experiences. 

6) Again, I will point out that Douthat is also deliberately obscuring the difference between a 13-year-old and a 19-year-old of average maturity levels.

7) I fail to understand how believing the strong amount of evidence that many young people have happy, pleasurable, fulfilling, education sexual experiences means that we can build on what we know to make that available to all is “cynicism”.  Douthat assumes throughout his writings on sex that everyone else shares his fundamental assumption that sex (at least outside of marriage, and probably heavily restricted in terms of what acts you can do inside of marriage) is dirty and shameful, and so he believes that the only stances available are resignation or the belief that it can be stomped out. There’s a third option he’s ignoring, which is believing sex can be a force for good, and we should build a society where joyful, consensual sexuality is embraced as the ideal.

8) There’s nothing jaded about believing that sex can and should be pleasurable and fulfilling, as well as safe and healthy.

9) This assumption that there are people who “remember” a time where there was widespread consensus for the “sex is dirty and shameful” ideology is not only false but physically impossible.  The battle between Team Sex Is Good and Team Sex Is Dirty has been going on far longer than anyone living now has been alive.  Margaret Sanger was first publishing contraception information nearly 100 years ago.  But the Free Love movement dates to even before that.  Marriage manuals, pitched battles between artists and censors, debates about how much freedom young women should have—-all these things have been around much longer than anyone alive can remember.  The time that Douthat is alluding to, the 1950s, was actually one where attitudes about sex were liberalizing rapidly, which is why the groundwork was in place to legalize contraception.  Douthat isn’t just a prude by 21st century standards, as he’s assuming.  He was a prude by 20th century standards. Hell, he’d be considered a prude by many 19th century figures, from Mark Twain to George Eliot.  What he means by “remembering” is actually “fantasizing”. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 11:45 AM • (62) Comments

God, I didn’t have sex until I was out of college, but this guy really makes me want to go back in time and encourage 16 year old me to get with the fuckin’, already.

Comment #1: twg_  on  03/09  at  12:13 PM

Yeah, I gotta say, if I have any sex-related regrets, it’s that I hadn’t have fucked things up in my high school relationships, or that my self-esteem and social skills hadn’t been so crippled by that time in my life, so that I could have gotten to fooling around and learning about sex sooner. Cause that way, maybe sex, as bad as I wanted it, wouldn’t have been such a terrifying plunge into the unknown when I finally started having it about halfway through college.

Comment #2: grolby  on  03/09  at  12:33 PM

Considering that most people are older than teenagers, I think it’s safe to assume that most women who use Planned Parenthood’s services are not teenagers.  He basically implied that it’s fine and dandy for older women to have abortions and lots of sex, although that wasn’t his intention.  He was trying to paint a picture of stupid little sluts that are too young to know what’s good for them, but for anyone who even has a passing knowledge of reality, he basically said that it’s ok for older adults to have abortions.

Comment #3: bananacat  on  03/09  at  12:33 PM

I had major trouble getting onto this site yesterday so I am late thanking you for the link to your article about the Texas legislature. I love that they get it and they forced republicans to show on the record that they really don’t give a damn about anyone who can live independently outside of another human beings body.

I never read this guys articles because he makes my teeth itch, but I never miss your analysis of him. He seems to be sinking deeper and deeper into his own excrement, with no way of ever climbing out. At first when he wrote this crap, I thought that he was just another hack writing any kind of garbage to keep a steady paycheck from a major newspaper and to get the acclaim of the religious right-republican-tea bagger establishment. But realizing that he really believes this shit is amazing, considering his age. This is the kind of “good old days” garbage you’d expect from someone who is at least 80 years old.

Comment #4: serious bette  on  03/09  at  12:43 PM

Excellent take down, and he really does cram more fallacious material into one graph than most columnists publish in a lifetime.

That said, when I look at Douthat - and I mean every, single time I see his picture - all I hear is Homer Simpson’s mocking, “Weellllll, if it isn’t the leader of the wiener patrol, boning up on his nerd lessons.”

Comment #5: Big_Southern  on  03/09  at  12:49 PM

Agreed, Big. It really just adds to the (no doubt correct) sensation that his pompous proclamations about the sex lives of others have more to do with his imagination than any access to experience.

Comment #6: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/09  at  01:05 PM

He is Catholic, right?  I’ve never seen anyone write about sex this way that wasn’t.  Garden variety right wing xtians harp on the carnal filth.  Catholics go straight for the high level shaming and intellectual-sounding emotional abuse.

Comment #7: bomberE  on  03/09  at  01:41 PM

Great article, Amanda.  I also just read your piece on AlterNet about how conservatives are terrified of female sexuality.  The thing that really drives me crazy are all the people who claim to be fiscal conservatives but social liberals, and yet still vote for all of these virulently anti-woman legislators.  When you look at the fact that the fiscal proposals by Democrats are pretty conservative by any objective standard, I don’t see how you could turn around and vote for such bigots and claim it’s because you are a fiscal conservative.  I imagine most of these people are lying, and that they hate women almost as much as these politicians, but just don’t want to admit it to the vast swath of people who would shun them for it.

Comment #8: progrocker  on  03/09  at  01:58 PM

I love the fact he seems to think that millennia of human history — during which people screwed, married or not, adult or adolescent, whether the “official” moral authorities, religions and governments and cultural mores, etc., thought it was right or not — can just be swept aside because he and his fellow travelers want their sexless world so badly.

***

Mr. DoucheHat, here’s the reality:  People screw.  They’ve been screwing for a long time.  In fact the urge to screw is programmed deeply into our DNA.  This urge (if you wish to believe in a god) was put there by your creator, not your Satan.  So that urge must be fairly important.

(Let’s face it.  If you were a human of average intelligence who had any clue what an expensive and royal-pain-in-the-ass children are, why would you ever have sex unless it was supremely pleasurable?  The pleasure of sex is obviously there to overcome our otherwise very useful intellects…)

I realize that you are beholden to a religion that only loves a fantasy of asexual and completely mindless and robotic straw-people, and otherwise hates real people as they actually are.  And I realize you are part of a political movement that finds engaging people’s basest fears and hatreds is a good political strategy.

But even as self-deluded as you’ve made yourself, don’t you ever have moments of clarity when you silently ask yourself why you’re such a willing and eager tool?...

Comment #9: MikeEss  on  03/09  at  02:03 PM

I do tend to believe that team sex is dirty.  Really more of a singles or pairs activity, for me.  But, I don’t have a prominent national column in which I try to push my preferences and insecurities onto the rest of society.

Comment #10: libdevil  on  03/09  at  02:13 PM

I really wish I hadn’t been programmed by these people when I was a teenager.  Then I could have just sought out women who wanted the same things I did (women are human beings!), rather than assuming that I was dirty for wanting sex, and doing stupid approach/avoidance behavior.

Comment #11: Punditus Maximus  on  03/09  at  02:17 PM

Shit, just look to the practice of “bundling” in Colonial America to confirm that teenagers were indeed fucking.  In theory, they were bundled together just to “talk” as part of the courtship ritual, but in practice, they were fucking.  They were just largely forced to get married afterward.  That’s the difference, and to be honest, he’d probably love to see forced marriages come back.

Comment #12: Blitzgal  on  03/09  at  02:27 PM

Meet the new fogey, same as the old fogey.

Speaking of the NYT‘s token conservative douchebags, Bo-Bo Brooksie has a new book out. P.Z. Myers’ critique of it in Salon is one of the funniest book reviews I’ve read in a while. I’d excerpt, but this one is worth reading in its entirety.

He is Catholic, right?  I’ve never seen anyone write about sex this way that wasn’t.  Garden variety right wing xtians harp on the carnal filth.  Catholics go straight for the high level shaming and intellectual-sounding emotional abuse.

Sometimes they go all-out. [YouTube link]

Comment #13: Gracchus.  on  03/09  at  02:38 PM

Shit, just look to the practice of “bundling” in Colonial America to confirm that teenagers were indeed fucking.  In theory, they were bundled together just to “talk” as part of the courtship ritual, but in practice, they were fucking.  They were just largely forced to get married afterward.

Generally when the girl/woman was pregnant.

Gee, a colonial society came up with a custom that allowed generally isolated teenagers to establish that they were (i) sexually compatible and (ii) fertile before going off and setting up home together on a frontier.  Whoulda thunk?

Comment #14: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  03/09  at  03:37 PM

twg:“God, I didn’t have sex until I was out of college, but this guy really makes me want to go back in time and encourage 16 year old me to get with the fuckin’, already.”

I knew my wife at 16, but we didn’t start dating until we were 27.  She has repeatedly reminded me that if I had gotten up the nerve to ask her out, I would have been getting some years earlier.

Comment #15: idiosynchronic  on  03/09  at  03:37 PM

Douhat wishes us to return to the mid last century and practice his particular religion, where practicing Catholics were shit out of luck for anything but procreative screwing.

Or, as my father said of my 1950 birth, “You were planned for—your brother and sister were the Rhythm Method.”

Comment #16: judybrowni  on  03/09  at  03:47 PM

What gets me is the first one—“taken for granted”. As Amanda points out, that phrase is a weasel-word—what it really means is “taking account of reality”.

In other words, you could write the same sentence about just about anyone who works with people who may have engaged in activity that someone else disapproved of. “But they also see criminal defense lawyers’ larger worldview — in which their clients’ criminal activity is taken for granted”. “But they also see corporate CFOs’ larger worldview—in which their employer’s desire to avoid taxation is taken for granted”. “But they also see McDonalds’ larger worldview—in which their customer’s gluttony is taken for granted”. “But they also see the Highway Department’s larger worldview—in which drivers’ gas-guzzling is taken for granted”.

Pretty neat, isn’t it? Anyone who does anything that remotely assists anyone who is engaging in any acts that someone else thinks are immoral is automatically doing something wrong by “taking” reality “for granted”!

This tracks a lot of right-wing rhetoric on abortion and contraception. I’ve said this before, but I suspect that given the choice between a legal prohibition on abortion that is widely evaded and doesn’t deter a single abortion and a regime in which abortion is completely permitted but we bring the abortion rate down substantially with more effective contraception, sex education, etc., many pro-lifers would prefer the former option. Because the latter option takes sexual activity that they find immoral “for granted”.

Saying something takes X for granted is not an argument. It’s simply an expression of offense. Lots of good policies take things for granted.

Even if I agreed with him about the undesirability of casual sex (which I don’t), I would still say that reproductive rights policies should not be held hostage to those who are offended by it. The way you solve problems is by taking things for granted sometimes.

Comment #17: Dilan Esper  on  03/09  at  03:56 PM

Or, as my father said of my 1950 birth, “You were planned for—your brother and sister were the Rhythm Method.”

My mom has 11 siblings and I think about half of them are also due to the Rhythm Method.

My sisters and I, however, are a testament to the lack of sex education and/or available birth control in southern WV in the late 60s/early 70s when my parents were in high school.  I came after my mom was told by her doctor (after a car accident) that her ovaries were damaged and she’d never be able to get pregnant.  After me, my sister is a “no, people really don’t get pregnant again only a few weeks after giving birth, really” and my mom ended up pregnant about 8 weeks after I was born.  My other sister is planned—mom and dad decided to try one more time for a boy.  After the three of us and a couple of miscarriages thrown in to prove how easily my poor mom can get knocked up, my dad had a vasectomy at 23 (they only started at 19).

Comment #18: ks  on  03/09  at  04:05 PM

Catholics go straight for the high level shaming and intellectual-sounding emotional abuse.

Can’t say it didn’t work for at least 1,500 years or so.  It explains Mother Avengers’ observation that half the girls in her class of 1954, Notre Dame High School, San Jose, CA got married after graduation because they wanted to know what sex was like. 

She didn’t, and although she was a good Catholic girl until she met and married my father, she studied acting at the community college and had a social life as well.

Just remember, Doughhat fronts for an organization that thinks nothing of suppressing facts and information if it puts the RCC in a bad light or makes fun of it.

Comment #19: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  03/09  at  04:28 PM

is this about the Douthat column where he discovers the Uecker book? It itself is an adventure in confirmation bias.

It explains Mother Avengers’ observation that half the girls in her class of 1954, Notre Dame High School, San Jose, CA got married after graduation because they wanted to know what sex was like.

All I have is anecdata, but I have reason to believe that a good chunk of eldest children born in the 50s were “premature.” When “the rabbit died” the wedding date was set.

Comment #20: Hector B.  on  03/09  at  04:56 PM

Is it just me, or has Pandagon been reeaaalllllyyy slow for the last couple days?

Kinda frustrating…

Then again, for a site that’s described by a recent troll as a “Den of Evil” overseen by a “She Nazi”, maybe slowness is to be expected…

Comment #21: MikeEss  on  03/09  at  05:02 PM

You’re all of you much too good to pick on the New York Times’ resident intellectual homunculus.

Comment #22: DBK  on  03/09  at  05:03 PM

Is it just me, or has Pandagon been reeaaalllllyyy slow for the last couple days?

I have been experiencing this too and I thought it was just slow internet at work, but it’s also slow for me at home.  I don’t really know who to report it to or who can fix it so I just tolerate it.

Comment #23: bananacat  on  03/09  at  05:20 PM

the Rhythm Method

For the longest time I thought that was some sort of sex act.

Comment #24: teac  on  03/09  at  05:25 PM

“I’ve said this before, but I suspect that given the choice between a legal prohibition on abortion that is widely evaded and doesn’t deter a single abortion and a regime in which abortion is completely permitted but we bring the abortion rate down substantially with more effective contraception, sex education, etc., many pro-lifers would prefer the former option.”

They WOULD pick a system with widespread illegal and unsafe abortion over a system with legal and safe abortion that is kept at a very low rate because of liberal sexual values (healthcare access, open communication, lack of sexual shame and isolation).  They DO make that choice all the time.  Both of these systems exist in the world today (ex: Nicaragua vs. Norway) and even though Norway has far fewer actual abortions, the antis are still trying to push our system toward that of Nicaragua where both abortion and death from abortion are much more common but everybody keeps up appearances, sneering at eachother about it and feeling superior.

Comment #25: GumbyAnne  on  03/09  at  05:27 PM

It’s not even that he’s demonstrably disingenuous, because he presents arguments that right wing watchers can prove easily he obtained because he engages with fringe conservatives who agitate to ban contraception, but he acts like he’s being reasonable and downplays the radical nature of the arguments he’s presenting.

That’s one helluva bad sentence.

Comment #26: Darling Daniel  on  03/09  at  05:40 PM

Darling Daniel,

By “bad,” do you mean good?

Comment #27: Lisa Love  on  03/09  at  06:10 PM

Ross Douthat…fogeying WAY above grade level.
Does not play well with others.
or with himself.

Comment #28: chicating  on  03/09  at  06:23 PM

I think I was 15 before I realized my big sister was born 7 months after my parents’ wedding.  Hey, guess who was raised Catholic? wink  My mother wasn’t raised Catholic, though, and the other three of us were very clearly planned.  We’re pretty close to being exactly two years apart.  My mom says that my grandfather (one of 13, who had 8 sons, though my grandmother did have 11 pregnancies) gave her a book on the Rhythm Method when they got married, and she read it and found it interesting…and got an IUD.  Of course, she’s the same one who sent me right to Planned Parenthood when she discovered I was having sex at 17, so she’s clearly quite practical.

Comment #29: Mimi  on  03/09  at  06:36 PM

Pandagon’s internet performances is almost always slow here.  WTH?

Comment #30: Eric_RoM  on  03/09  at  06:37 PM

he’s a genius at packing in more false assumptions per paragraph than almost anyone writing

At last you’ve explained why the New York Times hired him in the first place. With so many competitors, such talent makes him a living national treasure.

And now, after enjoying the great footnotes, I have to wash my eyes out to get the Douthat-stink off.

Comment #31: paul  on  03/09  at  06:40 PM

MikeEss @21: It may be a denial of sevice attack (possibly by the MRAs).  PZ Myers reported on his blog, Pharyngula, that his hosting service has been experiencing a DoS attack, and since he’s the primary source of traffic there, it would make sense that he’s the target (he also recently posted a blog entry making fun of MRAs).

Comment #32: progrocker  on  03/09  at  06:45 PM

“They WOULD pick a system with widespread illegal and unsafe abortion over a system with legal and safe abortion that is kept at a very low rate because of liberal sexual values (healthcare access, open communication, lack of sexual shame and isolation).”

Of course, ‘cause if you made it easy to have sex and avoid abortion, and easy to get a safe, legal, abortion as needed, you’ve violated a key premise of many Christian religious sects:  Doing the right thing must be difficult, not easy, must be painful and not fun, and (typically) you should expect no reward for doing the right thing, at least in this life.  (This is based on my own nutcase rightwing conservative religious upbringing.)

If it was easy and safe all those slutty sluts would be screwing like rabbits, and enjoying it, without disease or pregnancy.  And we can’t have that. 

Life here on Earth is just a test, God’s way of determining whether or not you are eligible to get into Heaven.  The common human desire for enjoyment, pleasure, and happiness is something that should ideally go unfulfilled until you have successfully run the Christian religious gauntlet, made all the right choices, done everything God wants you to do, and were rewarded by going to Heaven, where merely being in the presence of The Lord is all the happiness any Good Christian should want.

Sexual pleasure, especially for women but even for men too, is an unfortunate side-effect of our anatomy, and is therefore another test.  If you can limit yourself to just as many orgasms as the number of children you have, then you get a gold star.  Every additional orgasm beyond calls into question the strength of your faith and your success in following the rules of the One True God.

If there was some way to accomplish pregnancy without any orgasm by either party, that would be sex perfected.  Proof of this is that (as I was constantly reminded growing up) there is no sex in Heaven.  Thank God!...

Comment #33: MikeEss  on  03/09  at  06:51 PM

I’ve written about this before on this forum, but I lived in Ross Douhat’s world in 40 and 50 years ago, and it wasn’t pretty.

My practicing Catholic mother was damned if she did, and damned if she didn’t: the Vatican approved “birth control” Rhythm Method produced children, and three was what they could (barely) afford.

After that, she was forced by my Prostestant father to practice (the mortal sin) of birth control, or end the marriage, also impossible as a practicing Catholic of the period.

Not the primary reason for her suicide, but one of the factors, I’m sure.

My childhood babysitter married off at 16 when she got pregnant (and missing teeth by 30.) Even in the 1960s in a white, lower-middleclass neighborhood, the birth control pill unavailable to high school classmates, and two of my A-student friends forced into marriage—and out of school—at 14 and 16 (another sent away to different state, probably to give birth.)

I was scared out of sex in high school, since it seemed so tied to living in a parent’s basement and married to a teenager.

One of my older stepsister’s friends forced to carry her dead fetus to term, that woman’s system then so poisoned she was never able to carry a child again.

That’s Ross Douhat’s world, and he wants us all to be forced to live in it again.

Comment #34: judybrowni  on  03/09  at  06:57 PM

“That’s Ross Douhat’s world, and he wants us all to be forced to live in it again.”

True!  But he’s only advocating it for our own good.  Just ask him…

Comment #35: MikeEss  on  03/09  at  07:13 PM

Pandagon is often slow for me. I’ve always figured it must be routinely hit by DoS attacks from MRAs, anti-choicers, libertarians and the like. Amanda is relatively high profile AND routinely a thorn in the side of the conservative anxious masculinity set, and while there are plenty of far left hackers, a lot of them are libertarian douchebags as well.

Comment #36: BlackBloc  on  03/09  at  07:29 PM

Yeah, the site is always slow for me, although the past few days have been worse than usual.

Comment #37: bomberE  on  03/09  at  07:54 PM

I mentioned this back when people were trying to make Bristol Palin into a “gotcha” but…

Conservatives have no problem with teen sex as long as there’s a shotgun wedding and they get to play grandparents. It’s only other people’s teens that they object to fucking.

Comment #38: CBrachyrhynchos  on  03/09  at  08:14 PM

“Your pompous proclamations about the sex lives of others have more to do with your imagination than any access to experience.”

T-shirt slogan!

Comment #39: Smartpatrol  on  03/09  at  08:44 PM

Or, if there’s no shotgun wedding, at least the girl didn’t get an abortion, and she’s saddled with the kid. That’ll teach her.

Conservatives have no problem with teen sex, provided at least one of the parents (the girl) is properly punished with a baby.

Comment #40: judybrowni  on  03/09  at  08:45 PM

The site’s been virtually impossible to get to today, at least for me; this is the first time I was able to get through. I wouldn’t be surprised if it were a DoS attack.

Comment #41: manboobz  on  03/09  at  08:59 PM

@judybrowni My favorite cousin lost her mother at four because the fetus she was carrying died and went septic, and she couldn’t get an abortion anywhere.  It killed her. 

But those were the “good ol’ days” according to the wingnuts, right? 

So glad I got fixed almost five years ago.

Comment #42: GeekGirlsRule  on  03/09  at  09:00 PM

I just want to comment on that last point about “remembering” the past. Douthat’s distortion of the historical record in order to serve his reactionary, anti-sex mythology is particularly egregious. It’s common knowledge that the 1950s weren’t an era of abstinence perfection like conservatives like to pretend they were. Foucault has also done a pretty good job of showing that the Victorians’ reputation for prudery is largely a myth, too. But if you go even further back in American history, you’ll see that sexual purity was never the case. After a girlfriend lent me her copy of Religion and Sexuality : the Shakers, the Mormons, and the Oneida Community, I learned that monogamy wasn’t universal even in 1848. Looking even further back, in 17th century Virginia, one third of all brides were pregnant at the time of marriage, and even in Puritan Massachusetts, where pre-marital sex laws were strictly enforced, one out of 10 brides were pregnant at marriage (Intimate Matters: A History of Sexuality in America).

Plus, if one wants to go way back in time to an era that was dear to the far-right, the early Christians were regularly accused by Romans of conducting orgies as part of their faith. In fact, early Christian apologists such as Epiphanius of Salamis didn’t deny such accusations, but instead tried to say that communities who participated in them weren’t “true” Christians. Of course, none of these accusations have ever been corroborated, but they’ve also never been disproven, either.

Comment #43: curiouscliche  on  03/09  at  09:41 PM

That’s the opposite side of the coin of the abortion debate: restrictions that prevented women from later giving birth to wanted children, killing a mother, forcing a woman to give birth to a baby which has no chance of surviving and then watch that child die, agonizing in her arms, in a most recent case.

Make no bones about it, the Ross Douhats of the world want women punished for the crime of having sex, and are frustrated because we’re not nearly being punished enough, at the moment.

Comment #44: judybrowni  on  03/09  at  09:41 PM

In 18th century New England most brides were pregnant. That’s what the marriage and birth records show. Not getting pregnant was sometimes even grounds for not getting married, or at least delaying it.

My parents always told me they believed in planned parenthood and made a point that my sister and I had been wanted. Latex condoms, my father explained, were what made the glory days of Borscht Belt sex what they were. As my mother explained, it wasn’t just the men who went there to get laid in the 30s and 40s. As a teenager I always found the Borscht Belt to be a bit geriatric, but, oh, if these walls could speak.

Comment #45: Kaleberg  on  03/09  at  09:47 PM

There’s also historical evidence of a man-to-man early Christian “committment” ceremony of some sort.

Although the early Christian church didn’t get involved in marriage, feeling that it was a secular matter.

Comment #46: judybrowni  on  03/09  at  11:05 PM

All I can say is, I wish this thinking was in place when I was in high school.  I grew up in the countryside with two deeply conservative parents, who convinced me from a very early age that anything sex-related was a dirty act, and I wasn’t allowed to go on dates until 18.  I’m still a virgin and sex is still something that terrifies me.

I suppose the difference between me and conservatives is, I don’t impose my own fears onto others.  I don’t believe anyone should have to suffer like that.

Comment #47: alicefairy  on  03/10  at  02:57 AM

I’d like to know what proportion of PP’s clients are adults.  In RD’s world, they’re all wild teenagers.  He doesn’t seem to realize that mature adults, even married ones, use birth control too, and PP serves them as well.

Comment #48: gretchen  on  03/10  at  03:29 AM

Hey, I’m a prude by any standard you’d care to mention; don’t lump me in with this Douthat bonehead!

Comment #49: Microwave Bacon  on  03/10  at  03:43 AM

WHAT? There’s no sex in heaven?

That does it. I’m not going.

Comment #50: bad Jim  on  03/10  at  06:22 AM

I couldn’t even get into Pandagon yesterday.  I had a sad.

As for Douthat’s “remembered” days of sexual purity…the Catholic Church has been fighting this battle for centuries.  The clergy were the literate ones, and when nobility had them write down tales of Courtly Love, they fought back.  You see, in the Middle Ages, everyone knew you didn’t love your spouse.  True Love was impossible with your spouse.  You had your True Love with *somebody else’s spouse”. No worries about pregnancy then.

Originally, Arthurian legends had no problems with Lancelot and Guenevere. It wasn’t for centuries until the priests managed to make it sinful and instill the Grail quest for Jesus.

Rediscovering Aristotle and the elevation of St. “make me good later but let me have fun now” Augustine took the Church further down their twisted path.

The very idea that this nonsense didn’t exist until the 60s should be laughable enough to get the guy fired, but we no longer have respectable American newspapers.

Comment #51: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  03/10  at  10:21 AM

“WHAT? There’s no sex in heaven?
That does it. I’m not going.”

...you won’t be missing much.  All the really interesting people are gonna be in Hell…

Comment #52: MikeEss  on  03/10  at  10:21 AM

Douchehat really is the master of the unstated assumption.  “sex is bad”.  I am starting to think somebody needs to give him the Santorum treatment.  Dan Savage if you are listening it’s time for a new meaning for the word douthat.

Comment #53: John Rove  on  03/10  at  11:03 AM

Susie Bright has a little fun letting the air out of Mr Douthat’s BS.

Comment #54: Smartpatrol  on  03/10  at  02:58 PM

“...but especially a still-young man.”

Without taking anything at all away from your larger point, Amanda, I’m going to bust you for that single clause.  Even absent clear histories of phobia, fetish, closeting, or abuse survival there’s a perfectly normal distribution of interest in sex such that roughly 15% have little interest and around 1% have no interest whatsoever in sex.

Neither Douthat’s age nor his biological sex have any bearing on that.  And it’s really important to get that… in sex-positive/sex-negative terms his low/no libido “orientation” and his effective denial about it in favor of claiming “virtue” makes him an even smarmier asshat.

There are plenty of still-young men with low/no libidos who could probably use a little more support and sympathy. Both from Douthat (who if he was willing to be honest could be a great spokesperson) but also from those of us who actually like touching each other.

figleaf

Comment #55: figleaf  on  03/10  at  05:14 PM

I am blown away that a man young enough to be my son is still under the thumb of Catholic brainwashing. I was getting over it by the time I was sixteen, and pretty much threw away every attitude and tenet by the time I was twenty-five. But then, as a female, I don’t get the perks Douchehat receives for being an RC tool.

Comment #56: LCforevah  on  03/10  at  06:23 PM

Honestly this guy reminds me of the notion in Piers Anthony’s “Xanth” books, that little children must be kept ignorant of “the spell for summoning the stork” because knowing how to summon the stork *MAKES YOU A WORSE PERSON THAN YOU WERE* before you knew it.

Comment #57: Cactus Wren  on  03/11  at  12:19 AM

What he means by “remembering” is actually “fantasizing”.

Indeed.  And isn’t it disturbing that he fantasizes about (premarital) sex being dirty, not clinically safe and being considered immoral?  But then again, who am I to judge?  Whatever floats his boat ... but does he (and the New York Times) have to subject all of us to his fantasies?

No wonder reactionaries like him think that gays want to force their sexuality on straights.  It’s how the reactionaries themselves roll.  They have some fantasy about sex being dirty and conducted in the rumble seat of a vintage car ... and they want to force their sexual fantasies on the rest of us.  So they assume that we liberals are wanting to force our sexual fantasies on them.

BTW—I mis-parsed the title of this post.  I thought it would be a post about orgies “team sex” or something. wink

Comment #58: DAS  on  03/11  at  12:19 PM

Doing the right thing must be difficult, not easy, must be painful

A secular version of this line of thinking infects our budget discourse.

Comment #59: DAS  on  03/11  at  12:22 PM

DAS@59: It’s really a common attitude, even on the so-called Left (here I mostly talk about people who identify as leftists in a cultural manner, kind of like cultural Catholics who actually share pretty much no values with the Catholic hierarchy but are invested in calling themselves Catholic as an identity).

In college we found a fair trade coffee supplier and petitionned our student cafeteria to carry it. It was actually cheaper than the non-fair trade provider they were using, so they could sell it at the same price and make a bit MORE of a profit on it. It flopped entirely. No students wanted to buy it. So they upped the price to an extra 5 cents over the regular coffee, and it immediately became very popular. They’d run out of stock.

What I learned from that is that there’s a big population of people who does not care about doing the right thing until they can point to how they got hurt personally for doing it (“See, I care about Guatemalan farmers, I’m willing to pay 5 cents more for my coffee.”) They’re buying the prestige that comes from being a moral scold.

Comment #60: BlackBloc  on  03/11  at  02:20 PM

Also: libertarian assumptions about homo economicus and rational market actors are obvious bunk.

Comment #61: BlackBloc  on  03/11  at  02:21 PM

This man makes my skin crawl.  Smug misogyny is exactly that! 

I was shocked! Shocked I tell you after seeing the bloggingheads between Michelle Goldberg and him a month or so ago.  She really deserves brownie points for not reaming him out. 

http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/33489

Comment #62: jackie  on  03/11  at  08:24 PM

ok why did it eat my comment?

Comment #63: denelian  on  03/12  at  04:54 AM
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