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Next entry: Former President Carter charges racism is behind Wilson’s - and teabagger/birther - outbursts Previous entry: Mad Men blogging: Housecat edition

That’s why those sinners are relaxed all the time!

Damn you, Atrios!  Here I was, innocently tweeting links that I didn’t feel I could come up with a full blog post about, and I see that Atrios is making fun of the Washington Post for printing this pointless screed of Michael Gerson’s encouraging young people to get into unhappy marriages headed straight for divorce.  Because he cares about your happiness.  It certainly has nothing to do with the perverse need of conservatives to stomp out joy and pleasure wherever they see it, nor their especially strong need to do so when young people are being young, which can provoke jealousy if you’re not mature and capable enough to look the other way and count your blessings.

No, like all sex-phobes, Gerson wants you to quit looking for the person who’ll make you happy and just take the first person you date

The casual sex promoted in advertising and entertainment often leads, in the real world of fragile hearts and STDs, to emotional and physical wreckage.

In conservative-land, there’s no such thing as condoms, of course.  Sometimes I think it’s because they literally cannot fathom asking a man to care about contraception, as the implication is that you’re a big pussy who gives a shit about a woman’s well-being, even if she’s not your official property.  But setting aside the STD scare tactics, I have a pop quiz for the Pandagon community.  What do you think breaks your heart more: Dating someone for awhile and deciding it’s not working out and moving on, or doing so after getting married, having children, and promising to love and honor each other for life?  Which rift do you think takes longer to heal?  Because, as much as conservatives like to monkey with and distort statistics to try to prove otherwise, the wedding band doesn’t heal a bad relationship.  What a wedding band does seem to unfortunately do is drag out the break-up, or worse, make you feel you can’t leave, and so you waste your life away in an unhappy relationship. 

But we’ve trod this ground before.  What I like about Gerson’s piece is that it takes conservative incoherence to a new level.  He bemoans casual sex, but then he gets all bent out of shape about cohabitation.  Kids can’t commit, and to demonstrate their lack of commitment, I’m going to trot out a bunch of kids that are making commitments!  Though not the commitment that Gerson wants, so it doesn’t count.  Sometimes I get the impression that cohabitation is such a hobby horse for social conservatives because they think that the fact that you’re living in sin makes the sex hotter.  Well, as someone in the scandalous state of cohabitation, I’m not going to disabuse them of that notion.  Eat it, marriage monkeys.

(Warning: “Marriage monkeys” should not be misconstrued by people trolling for offense to mean anyone who is married.  The marriage pimps are the sole object of scorn here.)

But this is not the only incoherence.  Gerson admits that many, probably most people living in sin are test-driving the relationship to see if it’s marriage material.  Then he says this:

Relationships defined by lower levels of commitment are, not unexpectedly, more likely to break up. Three-quarters of children born to cohabiting parents will see their parents split up by the time they turn 16, compared with about one-third of children born to married parents.

Could it be because people who actually make the leap into marriage are more sure than people who don’t, on average?  (Very few sinners are boycotting marriage like my dude and myself.)  And that people who are less sure are more likely to break up?  Correlation does not equal causation: a concept social conservatives will never get as long as it continues to be inconvenient.  You see the same problem with people who point out that very early 20s marriages are no more likely to end in divorce than later marriages.  Well, yes—-in an era where few people marry that young, so the group that does so is self-selecting.  But if you forcibly expanded that group to include people who don’t feel sure yet, then I imagine that would change dramatically.  Same with these statistics.  There’s no reason to think these couples would have stayed together if they were married.  The far more likely explanation is people whose relationships are rife with problems understandably hesitate to marry before they fix the problems.  And as much as our self-help culture would like to deny this, the existence of problems that might make you hesitate to marry is a strong predictor of the chance of breaking up down the line.  Or even the existence of problems you ignore to marry.  The existence of problems in general.  I, for one, would like to congratulate Americans who realize that the “ignore them and they’ll go away after the wedding” approach to problems does not work. 

What’s really amusing is that Gerson doesn’t seem to realize that a more enthusiastic attitude about abortion would also fix the problem he’s concerned about.  You know who doesn’t give birth out of wedlock?  Women who are dead set on not doing so, and therefore choose abortion if they get pregnant out of wedlock.  I’m just saying.  But of course, anything that conflicts with the larger, unspoken principle that people should have less fun and pleasure is immediately discarded.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 10:30 AM • (45) Comments

What do you think breaks your heart more: Dating someone for awhile and deciding it’s not working out and moving on, or doing so after getting married, having children, and promising to love and honor each other for life?  Which rift do you think takes longer to heal?

If I’d married the first guy I had an even semi-serious relationship with, I’d almost surely be a battered wife by now.  As it was, I got a few new triggers and an almost-stalker for the next couple years.  So I’d TOTALLY have been physically and emotionally better off staying with him longer, right?

Comment #1: rowmyboat  on  09/16  at  11:42 AM

Surely marriage would have fixed that!  I’m sure there’s some statistics we can tweak.

Comment #2: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/16  at  11:42 AM

Conservatives should start an Institute of Love, which would be just like the Ministry of Love, but privately funded and a major source of Wingnut Welfare.  Of course, it would be entirely devoted to stamping out the scourge of human pleasure and happiness, which of course, along with Liberalism, is the malignant disease underlying all of the sins of the modern age.

After all, if we’re going to achieve the Gilead of their dreams, they have to kick the Culture War up a few more notches…

Comment #3: MikeEss  on  09/16  at  11:45 AM

“We shall abolish the orgasm.  Our neurologists are working on it now.”

Comment #4: Dr. Psycho  on  09/16  at  11:48 AM

Lordy, rowmyboat. That’s horrible. My first boyfriend is, by pure dumb luck, an awesome wonderful guy, a feminist to the core, fun and independent and caring and likes cats and bicycles and ... we’re still friends. I like his girlfriend too.

My parents had the following rule: “you can’t marry someone before you’ve lived together for 5 years! Don’t even think about it!”

I’m still unmarried, still relatively safe and sane, and that rule is one I share freely.

Comment #5: CassieC  on  09/16  at  11:51 AM

This same bilge, about how free-and-easy sex is devaluing marriage, has been pumped out since the Sixties. And that’s just within my memory. Someone with more time and a greater tolerance for foolishness than I could undoubtedly find examples going back to the Thirties, the turn of the century, and probably back and back through all of recorded history.

Yeah, Mr. Gerson, 20-something unmarried people will have sex whether you like it or not. Deal with it.

Comment #6: Bitter Scribe  on  09/16  at  11:56 AM

I think the big reason conservatives are so keen on there being more, earlier marriages is that they find adultry so hot, and they want a bigger population pool of women trapped into sexless/loveless marriages that they can have illicit sex with…

Comment #7: BlackBloc  on  09/16  at  11:56 AM

I’ll stick with my grandfather’s view on cohabitation. He never got to meet my husband, but when I told him we were planning on moving in together after college (engaged, but no date set), his response was “Good for you! I think young people today are being very practical with all this living together. Much easier to tell if you can live with someone if you try it out first.”

Very pragmatic man, my grandfather.

Comment #8: Tapetum  on  09/16  at  11:57 AM

This same bilge, about how free-and-easy sex is devaluing marriage, has been pumped out since the Sixties.

The 1560s.  The Council of Trent was worried about it.

Comment #9: FlipYrWhig  on  09/16  at  12:18 PM

“What do you think breaks your heart more: Dating someone for awhile and deciding it’s not working out and moving on, or doing so after getting married, having children, and promising to love and honor each other for life?  Which rift do you think takes longer to heal?”

When I was a young man, I would have answered that breaking up after dating a while. Because I was stupid and mostly stoned or drunk all the time. So I thought that when a woman got tired of spending time with me because I was stoned or drunk all the time that I would never ever meet anyone again.

Now that I’m older (not necessarily wiser, though), I realize that when things fall apart and all that gets hurt are your feelings, you are MUCH better off than if you have children that also have to deal with things falling apart. My wife & I don’t have children, but seeing my nieces & nephews live through their parents’ marriages going bad, I’m glad that we don’t, just in case we don’t make it.

Comment #10: Mark  on  09/16  at  12:19 PM

Apparently you are all unaware that marriage is not about love or being in a happy relationship.  Marriage is about procreation.  At least, that’s what all the homophobes scream at me and my partner whenever we dare to bring up gay marriage.  So, shut up and go breed already!  Tick tock!  You’re not getting any younger, ladies!

Comment #11: BadKitty  on  09/16  at  12:21 PM

Re: comment #4 from Dr. Psycho.

Add the word “female” before “orgasm” and you would be utterly accurate.

Comment #12: ice weasel  on  09/16  at  12:26 PM

I actually got about three sentences into Gerson’s rant before thinking, “What am I doing? They’re going to dissect this on pandagon anyway and that will make for more fun reading.”

Seriously, the Washington Post has become the spot for old guys ranting and raving about these kids today. It is impossible to take Gerson/Will/Krauthammer, etc. seriously.

Comment #13: DC Fem  on  09/16  at  12:26 PM

Later marriage has been one of the reasons for declining national divorce rates. But this does not mean the later the better. Divorce rates trend downward until leveling off in the early 20s. But people who marry after 27 tend to have less happy marriages—perhaps because partners are set in their ways or have unrealistically high standards. The marital sweet spot seems to be in the early to mid-20s.

Of all the bilge Gerson ranted, this passage is the worst.  Inconveniently for him, divorce rates aren’t higher for late-marrying couples.  So he asserts that if you get married at some age older than 27, you just won’t be very happy.  Even if you don’t get divorced, marital happiness will elude you.  There is not a crumb of evidence for this propaganda tidbit, just wingnut wishful thinking about taming the ladies before their careers start.

Comment #14: Unree  on  09/16  at  12:38 PM

I just don’t get this obsession with the sex lives of 20somethings.  I honestly think it’s pretty creepy.  When I was in my 20’s I was fucking my brains out with a variety of menn in a variety of countries.  I eventually found one I liked fucking so much, I never fucked anyone else.  But that wasn’t until I was in 30’s.

Let me tell you something, if everyone had the 20’s I had, there’d be a lot less of this bullshit being published.

Comment #15: JennyLI  on  09/16  at  12:42 PM

Well, maybe a crumb, sponsored by “the National Fatherhood Initiative, which advocates marriage and family values.”  As crumbs go it’s rancid, tendentious, and unconvincing.

Comment #16: Unree  on  09/16  at  12:47 PM

Having done both, several times, I definitely recommend avoiding a bad marriage if at all possible and making sure that you really know your partner before making that commitment.  That said, aside from the legal benefits conferred by marriage (YES to same sex mariage!), I do not see any necessity for marriage to validate a committed relationship (though it can make a difference in the quality of the relationship (either for the good or for the bad).  At this point in my life, I am happily single with no intention of remarrying.

Comment #17: DrDick  on  09/16  at  12:50 PM

Did you know that the divorce rate went down in Massachusetts last year?  Did you also know that it has the lowest divorce rate in the country, at 2.0 per 1,000? 

The gay-marrying, educated, health-insured, libertine, dirty hippies of Massachusetts.  Can we all take a lesson?

Comment #18: rowmyboat  on  09/16  at  12:53 PM

I will make a guess here - Michael Gerson has reached an age where he thinks he is excluded from any “casual sex” culture.

Comment #19: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  09/16  at  01:08 PM

Given the high volume of teenagers currently reading the WaPo, I’m sure Gerson’s message reached a large audience.

Comment #20: Zifnab  on  09/16  at  01:09 PM

You know, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again (and again and again): I am so for a system of entirely voluntary licenses to form a joined household (between people who are getting it on with each other or not) that I am not even vaguely joking. You could have a limited liability license for people who are just shacking up out of college! A household incorporation permit for people who are doing the entire what’s-mine-is-yours deal! Special tax benefits for people who agree to share major kitchen appliances and reduce environmental impacts! Because my only worry with cohabitation is that someone’s going to put their live-in boyfriend through medical school and do his laundry/have his babies, and then have no grounds to sue his sorry butt for alimony when he leaves and takes five years of entry-level jobs and folded socks with him. Feel free to substitute any gendered pronouns you want in that sentence.

Yes, this worry is actually based on Donna from the West Wing. No, I don’t think that marriage’s legal standing provides the kinds of protections that I think are ideal in this situation unless someone has a very clear prenuptial agreement.

Comment #21: purpleshoes  on  09/16  at  01:09 PM

Purpleshoes:  Yes.  This.

Legal contract is a legal contract.  If the church wants to do a magical hand waving pony parade to make the baby Jesus love your legal contract all the more, they can figure that shit out on their own time.

Comment #22: Zifnab  on  09/16  at  01:10 PM

“Which rift do you think takes longer to heal?”

It’s insidiously more circular than that. A big part of the reason either one hurts as much as it does, and the reason some of the people get married in the first place, is the fairy tale True Love expectation that we are supposed to know in advance who is The One.

It always amazes me how fast so many people turn their One True Love into the Antichrist. The only justification for sex is true love, and by definition true love is immediate and permanent. And, by extension, if it falls apart when YOU knew it was true love (decent upstanding person that you are), it means that the other bitch or bastard was lying to you and must be punished.

It’s like none of these people ever were or ever met actual people. There are simply some things you cannot possibly know about someone until lines of intimacy are crossed. And even that supposes, against all human experience, that nobody ever grows or changes.

Comment #23: Lymis  on  09/16  at  01:15 PM

Apparently you are all unaware that marriage is not about love or being in a happy relationship.  Marriage is about procreation.

It’s not even about procreation; procreation’s just another enforcement mechanism.  Happiness is supposed to come from conformity, and the chance to be among the oppressors instead of the oppressed.  Increasing social pressure of course makes more people unhappy, so the best chance to derive satisfaction—as distinct from genuine happiness—is to conform and apply pressure instead of receiving it.  Voila!- endless reinforcement.  The other humans involved and the quality of their emotional experiences are sidebars at best; one might as well ask if worker ants are happy feeding the queen.

Comment #24: latts  on  09/16  at  01:17 PM

Gerson does make one salient point (hey, even a broken clock is correct twice a day):

the “courtship narrative” in the past was clear: dating, engagement, marriage, children. This narrative has been disrupted without being replaced, leaving many 20-somethings in a “relational wasteland.”

Of course there is a reason that the courtship narrative of the past is no longer clear: IT JUST WASN’T THAT GREAT TO BEGIN WITH.  Plus, it is less relevant with widespread availability of reliable contraception,  longer life spans, and a highly mobile population.

Nonetheless, the “dating, engagement, marriage, children” narrative still hangs around in its zombie form, maintaining certain social expectations.  (I remember a very good article here several weeks ago about the power of social expectations.)  This leaves us with a vague set of universalized social expectations which we know don’t work (see the divorce rate); but no socially sanctioned alternative narrative to turn to.  Thus many of us try to write our own relationship narrative, but without some sort of social sanction these narratives just don’t feel as “real”.

Gerson is trying to tweak and fix the old courtship narrative - to bring it back to life.  Too late, that narrative has gone full-on zombie.  It’s dead; unfortunately it seems to be eating the brains of possible alternative narratives.  What I think we need are a plurality of socially acceptable relationship narratives.  In fact, we have already begun inventing new words to populate our narratives - witness the rise of the use of the terms ‘partner’, ‘friends with benefits’, ‘babymom/babydad’ to go beyond the terms ‘dating’, ‘boyfriend/girlfriend’, and ‘spouse’ that are native to the old “dating, engagement, marriage, children” narrative.

Gerson and his ilk insist on this one-size-fits-all narrative.  But you know, the only way the old narrative worked was by reducing women to a quasi-property status, and the punchline is that the men weren’t happy under that system either.  In the process of trying to rehabilitate the zombie narrative however, Gerson et al. are really working to create this relationship wasteland they complain about.  Their efforts to retain the universality of the old narrative hinders the growth of the new narratives. 

New narratives are the only thing that will relieve us from the wasteland.  Most people I know, myself included, definitely feel that we are in a sort of wasteland without direction in how to proceed.  (If you are enough of an individualist to say “damn the need for public social sanction” then more power to you.)  Gerson understands the symptom, but his prescription is just making things worse.

Comment #25: Richard Goblin  on  09/16  at  01:18 PM

Zifnab: that’s exactly what we did, in fact. As the regular churchgoer in my family, I actually didn’t care to have a church wedding at all. My wife insisted that there must be some form of religiosity involved, which confused me.

So we got married in a park near where she grew up. The church I go to doesn’t do outdoor weddings, so the ceremony was a secular one. Immediately after the ceremony, the marriage was blessed by my father’s cousin (who is a priest). So I got my secular ceremony and my wife got her religiosity.

It all worked out pretty well.

Comment #26: Matthew, Patron Saint of Affogato  on  09/16  at  01:22 PM

I will make a guess here - Michael Gerson has reached an age where he thinks he is excluded from any “casual sex” culture.

Considering that at 25 and 30 respectively, my partner and me always seem to be (amongst) the youngest in the room at swingers clubs and fetish play parties, I think his opinion is frankly wrong.

Comment #27: BlackBloc  on  09/16  at  01:57 PM

“The 1560s.  The Council of Trent was worried about it.”

Yes they were, and that, along with some bad choices I made, led to almost 35 years of a declining marriage, before it finally crashed and burned. First serious dating relationship (@16 in the late 60’s/ early 70’s), my Dog we couldn’t admit that we were actually considering having sex. So when we were prepared to deal with sex (i.e., condoms at the ready) we couldn’t do it, and when we did ultimately do it, not a condom in sight. Guess what happened? So we married ended up with a family of 4 offspring. I love the offspring dearly (I can’t call them “kids” since they’re between 27 and 37 now) and if this relationship was what I had to live through to have them then, well, OK. I still care about her (even though I would never want to live anywhere near her again, let alone with her).

But, I am so glad people are loosening up: and I hope that the Michael Gersons of the world someday learn that if they choose to be miserable, that’s their business, but to expect others to be miserable is just so far beyond the pale.

Comment #28: IllogicalPlanner  on  09/16  at  02:01 PM

Richard, I don’t know, I think that the evil liberal urban culture has come up with another narrative: You date in high school and college, with heavy emphasis on keeping it casual (not necessarily the relationships, but the lack of finances means a lot of group activities and nights at home watching videos). In your early 20s, you start to be more serious, with dating being a more one-on-one thing where dates are preplanned (because of work schedules), and you go to dinner a lot, etc.  You move in with someone that you’re serious with after a time, and if that works out well, then you get married. 

This trajectory doesn’t imply a number of partners, either high or low.  It could be that you go through this whole process with one person, or many.  You can dump someone and start into the process from the place you’re at with someone new.  But the point is that it’s not because they don’t take marriage seriously.  It seems they take it so seriously they don’t rush in.

Comment #29: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/16  at  02:13 PM

Okay, here’s a obvious if perplexing general question (there’s a similar one for David Brooks, Ross Douthat, et al): Exactly what qualifes this evangelical Christian, Heritage Foundation flunky, and former G.W. Bush speechwriter (not averse to lying about his contribution in that regard, according to other Bush speechwriters) to write anything in a major newspaper, or even a mimeographed handout, expounding upon marriage and sex? How did we get to the point where the merely opinionated so rule our discourse?

Comment #30: R.Porrofatto  on  09/16  at  02:20 PM

One statistic Gerson (deliberately and glaringly) neglects to mention: the number of those stable marriages that were tested out in living together relationships.

Comment #31: judybrowni  on  09/16  at  02:23 PM

Richard Goblin @ #25. It doesn’t matter that the beta males and their mates aren’t happy, what matters is that those who consider themselves alpha males as obviously Gerson thinks he is, be happy and on top of the social order.

His outlook is just so integrated into sexism, classism and racism. White alpha male on top, everybody else below.

Comment #32: LCforevah  on  09/16  at  02:30 PM

I know they’re consistently wrong about everything, but I really can’t get my head around advocating early-20’s marriages.

Comment #33: Wallace  on  09/16  at  02:52 PM

I think that the evil liberal urban culture has come up with another narrative

Ugh!  Your example strikes me as just another tweak on the “dating, engagement, marriage” narrative, but with an expanded dating section, the recognition that people will have multiple partners, and less of an enforced progression from one step to the next in linear sequence.  It’s not working for many of us evil urban liberals.  We need a new public option here.

Then there is the problem of children.  I have no desire to have any myself, but I have been doing a lot of work in family court lately.  If you go to family court you can see the enforcement of socially sanctioned norms in action.  In my professional opinion, the current legal regime governing child custody/visitation/support is tailored to a system where divorce or children born outside of marriage are considered aberrations rather than frequently occurring, if not the most frequently occurring when taken together, condition under which children are raised. 

Contra Gerson, we are going to need a narrative that deals with cohabitation when people have children that doesn’t reduce the adults to some form of human “trash” (of either the ghetto or the trailer variety).  For instance, the courts seem all too ready to enter custody orders that prohibit a custodial parent from cohabitating with a partner outside of marriage.  There is also the flip side of this where courts are all to willing to order that a non-custodial parent cannot have their new partner around the children during visitation.  Why?  The zombie narrative that people like Gerson continue to cling to.  We need a new narrative that validates new relationships so that “the best interests of the children” no longer gets read in a way that presumes (nuclear family = good) and (cohabitating partner = bad) when children are in the picture.

Comment #34: Richard Goblin  on  09/16  at  02:56 PM

My parents had the following rule: “you can’t marry someone before you’ve lived together for 5 years! Don’t even think about it!”

Frankly, I think there should be a requirement that you can’t get a marriage license until you’ve cohabited for a minimum of a year.  If the religious people get all tweaked about it, they can have their little ceremony before the move-in begins so they’ll be married “in the eyes of God” since that’s what they keep claiming is the part that’s most important to them.

I think it would save a whole lot of time and trouble down the road, not to mention court costs.

Comment #35: Mnemosyne  on  09/16  at  03:45 PM

The sooner you have children, the sooner you finish paying off child support obligations.

Comment #36: mnsr  on  09/16  at  03:49 PM

I still care about her (even though I would never want to live anywhere near her again, let alone with her).

Believe it or not, your relationship with her could still grow to be a friendly one even after this amount of time.  My father- and mother-in-law had a pretty bitter divorce 20 years ago and now (with the help of grandchildren), they’re actually pretty close to being pals.  They will never, ever, ever be romantic partners again, but she drove him to his prostate surgery and he drove her to her colonoscopy. 

Along the lines of what Richard Goblin was saying, I think that one of our most destructive cultural myths is that you shouldn’t break up/get divorced until you get to the point where you absolutely despise your partner.  It would be a lot better for everyone involved if it was more acceptable to break off a relationship when there was still some good feeling left, even if that good feeling wasn’t romantic and/or sexual any more.

Comment #37: Mnemosyne  on  09/16  at  03:54 PM

Y’all realize, of course, that, given the insular, pwecious, profoundly over-privileged and totally unaware-of-it culture they go in for at the Post, it’s entirely possible that Gerson wrote this little gem because he truly, sincerely believes that young people need to hear his opinion about how they’re having sex all wrong.

Comment #38: Molly, NYC  on  09/16  at  04:51 PM

It would be a lot better for everyone involved if it was more acceptable to break off a relationship when there was still some good feeling left, even if that good feeling wasn’t romantic and/or sexual any more.

Oh, absolutely. Right now those people are generally seen as shallow at best, particularly if it’s only a waning of sexual interest (and especially particularly if the partner who lost interest isn’t the partner seeking a divorce).

Comment #39: Hershele Ostropoler  on  09/16  at  04:51 PM

I think I might freak some of you out but, the Catholic Church has a great program to make sure that when you get married you actually think about the partnership and trials you are entering into.  I participated in the Pre-cana workshop with my fiancee and came to realize halfway through the weekend that he did not want a partner but a caretaker.  I ended the engagement that weekend.  Six weeks before the big church wedding.  IT was embarassing, expensive and heart breaking but I want to be married only once.  Several years later my now husband and I went through pre-cana and discovered our strengths and weaknesses as a couple.  We learned how to fight fairly and safely, how to approach issues in our lives and how to support each other. We have now been married almost 20 years. I don’t know if it was just my program area or it is true across the country but people I have talked to you have gone through the program and have had to deal with all the stresses of life said that by having gone through the program they were more prepared for marriage. 
And no I am not some right wing troll, I am a pro-choice, pro-marriage for any who want the commitment.  I do not agree with all the political and moral choices of the “Church” and am working and advocating for change in my community at home and at large, but my “Catholicness” is part of who I am.  There are great aspects of ‘catholics’ that somehow get overlooked because of the strident many (I won’t deny they have a profound effect on policy as a whole) who screech and wail and forget the greatest commandment was to love and serve one another.  Not to judge, condem, hate, and berate.  But….different strokes for different folks.

Comment #40: Teri  on  09/16  at  05:17 PM

I’ve heard good things about Pre-Cana, too—I guess it varies by diocese, but the accounts I’ve heard relegated family planning to “this is the Church’s position, which you probably know already; we have a pamphlet if you’re interested.”  But they were very good wrt individuals’ strengths & weaknesses and what kinds of expectations were reasonable (or not), as well as including family histories and a bit of testing as a jumping-off point for discussion.

Comment #41: latts  on  09/16  at  06:06 PM

I was impressed by my friends’ description of their catholic marriage classes. At one point the priest asked them what they would do WHEN (not if) they fell in love with someone else. Good question, that, and certainly goes beyond the “if your marriage is holy enough you will be in lurv forever!” crap.

Comment #42: CassieC  on  09/16  at  06:15 PM

The sooner you have children, the sooner you finish paying off child support obligations.

Rita Rudner: “When I meet a man, I say to myself, ‘Is this the man I want my children to spend their weekends with?’”

(She told this one before she was married, obviously)

Comment #43: Bitter Scribe  on  09/16  at  06:47 PM

One of the ironies here is that at least some of the kids-without-marriage thing Gerson et al are lamenting was encouraged by the racist/classist/stupidist attitudes of Gerson’s predecessors, who wrote lots of public-assistance rules in ways that made it difficult or impossible for married couples or single men to get public assistance.

Other countries do this kind of stuff so much better. I’ve gotten used to the fact that if I look up someone interesting in europe their marital status has nothing to do with whether they’re living with someone and/or have kids. But in the US we don’t even collect the statistics (length and kind of cohabiting relationships) that would let us talk about families in other than wed/unwed terms.

Comment #44: paul  on  09/16  at  09:34 PM

I think the Rudner quote was “....is this the man I want my children to see every other weekend?” but it’s still fucking hilarious.

Gerson is showing one of those signs of You Know You’re Old When: you start telling the young’uns to quit hopping on each other all the time because they should be thinking about getting married.

Because my only worry with cohabitation is that someone’s going to put their live-in boyfriend through medical school and do his laundry/have his babies, and then have no grounds to sue his sorry butt for alimony when he leaves and takes five years of entry-level jobs and folded socks with him.

While I’m all for expanded partnership/household rights, you lost me here. You get more rights (support) because you take on more responsibilities. Don’t want your live-in boyfriend to dump your ass for a hot nurse? Don’t put him through school knowing there are no strings attached other than “I love you, babe.”

Comment #45: mythago  on  09/17  at  02:28 AM

But, functionally, isn’t “I love you, babe” all anyone has? I live in Missouri, a no-fault divorce state. I’ve witnessed a bad marital breakup in a younger brother’s relationship and have just learned that a casual acquaintance is going through the same thing: long-term [>20 y] marriage broken resulting in considerable economic loss and dislocation, to leave aside the emotional devastation and concurrent/resulting health issues. It’s better that assets are divided instead of scooped up by either party but I don’t think people realize the loss/waste involved.

It seems to me, a single/never married person, that the commitment of marriage and the always-painful process of divorce does little or nothing to guarantee the stability of a relationship. If what we want as a society is to create “successful” relationships, we’re doing it wrong. I wish all committing couples could go through a form of the Catholic premarital counseling mentioned above—minus the religious content, I would have welcomed the chance to go through it with any of my past prospective partners, male or female. And maybe there wouldn’t have been so many of them smile.

Comment #46: brettvk  on  09/17  at  03:12 PM
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