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Next entry: GOP Debate tonight Previous entry: At least we’re not debating the C-word, because I like keeping the British excuse off the table

The anti-choice fight for dog-women

Yesterday was the anniversary of Roe v. Wade, and while it's good news that you can still get an abortion in all 50 states in this country (sort of), the fact of the matter is that we've lost a lot of ground. Legally, for one thing, but psychologically as well. I examine the problem at RH Reality Check, talking about how people are growing more accustomed to the idea that female sexuality is male property. Depressing stuff, but it's important to realize that this battle is not and has never been just about abortion. It's about women's rights and women's roles, and whether we should be full citizens or be managed and controlled by fathers, husbands, ministers, etc. Which is why I loved the picture that the New York Times chose to illustrate this story about the growing acceptance of anti-contraception views amongst Protestants.

In a single image, we get what anti-choicers believe men have lost, and what they believe stripping reproductive rights will return to them: Woman as pet dog. 

We don't even get the dignity that cats get, in their worldview. No wonder they don't care if Gingrich told his second wife she should just put up with the third one. Your dog doesn't get a vote when you get a new dog.

Some feminists tend to dismiss everything anti-choicers say out of hand, but what I think is interesting is that they're often quite right on the facts of what reproductive rights mean for women, but they're just wrong when it comes to their beliefs. For instance, this passage in the Times piece: 

As Dr. Paris suggests, much of the new birth-control skepticism comes from the suspicion that contraception is allied with more nefarious practices. In the 1970s, abortion became a central issue for evangelicals; now some worry that the kind of woman who controls her fertility is the kind who would abort an unwanted fetus. Antifeminist Christians worry that secular culture both encourages women to take the pill and leads them into the work force.

There's something a little strange about the distancing language the writer, Mark Oppenheimer, uses here. I would say that it's encroaching on the status of "indisputable fact" that contraception makes it easier for women to enter the work force. I would also argue that they're not wrong to believe that that exceedingly rare women who "doesn't believe" in contraception is probably not going to have an abortion when she gets pregnant. The problem is that they extrapolate incorrectly from there, assuming that taking away women's contraception will somehow magically make them feel more passive and accepting of the idea of constant, forced childbirth. The data shows the opposite, that the more hostility there is to reproductive rights, the more abortions there are, because more women are facing unwanted pregnancies. Simply enshrining one set of values into law doesn't magically make the population agree. Anti-feminists know this very well, since they adamantly resist laws that reflect women's equality. The problem here is their woman-as-dog model doesn't allow for understanding that women have minds of their own, and so they tend to think that simply demanding it will get instant, dog-like compliance. You see this a lot with antis who wave off your questions about the inevitable black market that arises when abortion is illegal; they have convinced themselves women only seek abortion because women are dumbly following orders, and they'll change when they're given a different set of instructions.

What Oppenheimer doesn't talk about. but that picture illustrates so well, is what anti-feminists really feel is lost with what they call "contraceptive culture": men's god-given right to have a woman---perhaps several (though in a row, mostly)---who follow them around, worshipping their every move, submitting completely and joyfully. I suspect this fantasy never was a reality, but I suspect a lot of Christian fundamentalists have convinced themselves that giving women the power to say "no" to men is what made us so maddeningly unwilling to play the supplicant. No to sexual overtures, no to marriage, no to demands that we wait on you, and most importantly, no to letting your magical seed plant itself in our bodies whenever it wants. That's why I believe that modern conservative Christians don't worship Jesus so much as Sperm Magic. The last few paragraphs of this piece makes that clear:

It then occurred to me that a few decades ago, when evangelicals and Catholics were further apart on birth control, they were also pretty far apart on questions of salvation — evangelicals were quite clear that Catholics were going to hell.

So I asked Mr. Surratt if Mr. Santorum would have any trouble getting into heaven. His answer confirmed that for today’s conservative Christians, the differences between Protestant and Catholic have gotten narrow indeed.

“That’s a God deal,” the pastor told me. “That’s his deal to judge. I’m glad I don’t have his job.”

When the differences between fundamentalist Protestants and Catholics were about things like the worship of saints and transubstantiation, well, there were real differences there. Now they're coming together to worship their true god---Sperm Magic---in basically the same way---fighting against women's rights---and so there aren't any theological differences to fight over. The chumminess that follows is predictable enough. 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 10:41 AM • (99) Comments

Really good point about the Duggars photograph, I didn’t look closely until you pointed it out.

One of the most interesting things about the NYT story, to me, was the statements about the (conservative) Protestant and (conservative) Catholic branches of Christianity reaching a new alliance against secular culture. This is something I’ve been noticing as well over the past few years. All the more reason for seculars, atheists, and the “Religious Left” to wake up and pay real close attention.

Comment #1: atheist  on  01/23  at  11:41 AM

I’d say the dog-like compliance also extends to children, who are about on equal footing with the wife. For these people, woman, dog and children are all part of a man’s estate. Nasty authoritarian behaviour towards all three comes naturally.

Comment #2: JilliefromChile  on  01/23  at  11:52 AM

Great article, Amanda. I’ve taken to basically asking any person who supports restrictions on abortion or birth control, why they think that women are incapable of thinking for themselves and making their own decisions. It’s rather appalling how many people, even supposedly liberal or progressive people, believe that women are ignorant, foolish children who need constant oversight and guidance. Unfortunately, this belief seems to cross all race, gender and political lines, and it gets really tiring calling people out on their bullshit, and then having to fight through the inevitable litany of rationalizations and justifications.

Comment #3: progrocker  on  01/23  at  11:52 AM

I have to agree that picture is perfect.  And deeply creepy.

“He has a PPPEEENNNNIIIIISSS!  I must worship him, giver of life!  I am merely a vessel for his homunculoid seed!  We must fulfill God’s command and go forth and multiply, to fill this otherwise empty world with shining happy white children, while we all wait for Jesus to come back to earth once again!”

You can read it on her face like a book.  Sickening…

Comment #4: MikeEss  on  01/23  at  11:57 AM

“I submit to you as I submit to the Lord.”  Barforama.

She’s even got the cocker spaniel hairdo.

Comment #5: oldfeminist  on  01/23  at  12:15 PM

This is why I’m a cat person really, that dog loyalty seems a bit too eager.  I heard of of the Duggars years ago because they were heros of a couple I knew, they seemed to believe in the idea that white people had to start pumping out babies to keep up with Blacks and Mexicans more than any real religious feelings.  Religion was just a cover for racism it seemed to me so thats why I see some religious leaders willing to overlook such minor things as Protestant vs. Catholic.

Comment #6: ewellone  on  01/23  at  12:17 PM

Spot on…also, that is seriously one of the most perverted images I’ve ever seen.

Speaking of perversion, I wonder (without sounding like a sex-scold) for how many of these anti-contraception dudes, the idea of contraception is really a boner-killer. To have sex without the fear/hope of pregnancy is somehow…an assault on that same sperm magic? Contraception-free sex is in essence, a very particular fetish. So much so that they would be sexually dysfunctional without its power-trip?

Comment #7: Thealogian  on  01/23  at  12:23 PM

The Times is wrong, abortion didn’t become a central issue for evangelicals until the eighties with Jerry Falwell and the Moral Majority.

Comment #8: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  01/23  at  12:28 PM

“Speaking of perversion, I wonder (without sounding like a sex-scold) for how many of these anti-contraception dudes, the idea of contraception is really a boner-killer.”

...well, we know it is for Ross Douche-Hat.  When “chunky Reese Witherspoon” told him she was “on the Pill”, he shriveled up like he had a bag of ice dumped on his dick.  I can only imagine (actually, have nightmares about) how Jim Bob will react once Michelle is no longer able to spit babies out like a doll factory…

And it really is some kind of fetish, which I’m sure would piss them off to no end if it were described as such.  On one side of the spectrum, guys with an unnatural attraction to feet, leather, or having their paramour dress like a school-girl, and on the other side, needing to believe you are the Creator of Life, whose Holy Sperm Cannot be Denied!

Kind of a sick power trip…

Comment #9: MikeEss  on  01/23  at  12:35 PM

Never thought of it this way, but yeah, the conplementarian ideal of marriage is frighteningly like dog ownership, come to think of it. I exercise benevolent control over my dogs and make decisions for them in their best interests. In return I get loyalty and affection. Jim Bob Duggar exercises theoretically benevolent control.over Michelle and makes decisions for her, who provides him with sexual and domestic services and seemingly unlimited progeny, as well as loyalty and (presumably) affection.

Difference being that dogs aren’t capable of making decisions for themselves in a human-centred world, so it would be horribly abusive for me to take them into my care and not, say, provide them with certain foods or veterinary care or have them spayed/neutered or allow them to roam the city unleashed. Women being part of Homo sapiens are not operating under the same restrictions.

Also I don’t expect my dogs to clean my house, cook my meals, or provide me with litter after litter of puppies (or any at all). What a raw deal for the Michelle Duggars of the world - all the duties of a human with all the dignity of a non-human animal.

Comment #10: KristinMH  on  01/23  at  12:36 PM

@7, that was the view of the late Norman Mailer.  Contraception offended him.  Some kind of Will to Power thing.  According to anecdote, whenever Mailer knew his partner had a diaphragm in, he’d insist on pulling it out before penetrating her.

Amanda, I agree with everything you wrote, but just a note on Sperm Magic as the new fundamentalist Christianity that papers over other disagreements among denominations.  Christians of all flavors seem to have dropped their “you’re going to hell because you’re not baptized the right way” belief.  All dogma included; it’s not just Sperm Magic supremacy.  Ecumenicism might be bad theology (as Richard Dawkins likes to point out) but it’s popular in the US and clerics are practical.  They know they have to sell tickets to their show.

Comment #11: Unree  on  01/23  at  12:39 PM

Well, KristinMH, Michelle doesn’t clean the house or cook the meals.  Her older daughters do that.  They also raise their younger siblings and teach them at the School of the Dinner Table.  Michelle plays with her newest baby and then hands it off to a “partner” to raise.  The girls do all the housework and the boys sometimes mow the lawn.

Comment #12: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  01/23  at  12:49 PM

fear of contraception and feminine power and bodily autonomy is how I got my overly long handle.

Some troll came on here and claimed that women controlling and deciding when to bear a child would be like blocking the Sun/God from their children.  Children should know they come from God and no where else, and if a mother lets her children know that she was the deciderer, well that would really fuck them up.

Because knowing you were a wanted child is just wrong.

Comment #13: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  01/23  at  12:51 PM

True, Caren. Though she must have done all the housework until the oldest girls got to be 8-10 years old or so (ugh).

Comment #14: KristinMH  on  01/23  at  12:58 PM

@ 7
my husband, and this is going to make him sound horrible, also said the same thing when i was trying to convince him to get a vasectomy.  the thrill of potentially knocking me up would be gone.  i think he also assumed we’d be ok with a third child.  i was sure we were at our mental and financial limit with the two.

of course, it was the actual and “accidental” knocking me up that finally kicked his ass in gear to get the procedure done after hemming and hawing for over 6 months.

granted there is something particularly fun about TTC (trying to conceive) sex, when the excitement and thrill is in both partner. otherwise, it’s not thrilling; it’s maddening and scary. 

several months after the vasectomy (and around what would have been my due date) i asked him if he missed the “thrill” - he didnt.

Comment #15: gardenom  on  01/23  at  01:08 PM

So, guess what I saw on Fox News last night. First some woman who said she was the “product of rape” was saying that the pain her mother had to go through was worth it because now she gets to exist. Then there was another woman who said she used to have an abortion business because she wanted to become a millionaire. She said they would try to get girls when they were young so that they would become repeat customers. Also that they sold them defective condoms to make sure they came back.

Comment #16: autonomousautomaton  on  01/23  at  01:16 PM

@autonomousautomaton #16,

I’ve met (pro-choice) people who were the “product of rape” who had extremely difficult and depressing times once they learned about the circumstances of their conception, because they felt like they didn’t deserve to live.

Comment #17: Hobbes  on  01/23  at  01:26 PM

True, Caren. Though she must have done all the housework until the oldest girls got to be 8-10 years old or so (ugh).
Comment #14: KristinMH on 01/23 at 12:58 PM

Not all by any means.  There’s a lot that younger kids can do if they’re convinced shirking will send them to Hell and you don’t have them hanging around other kids who want to play instead of work.  They’ll tell you that little girls want to be just like Mommy anyway.

I started having our two daughters do simple household tasks at young ages as well and now that they are ten and eight, they are a tremendous help to me! They fold laundry, vacuum, clean their bathroom, and dust, as well as set the table and load and unload the dishwasher.

http://www.growinginhisglory.com/2011/07/growing-our-children-chores.html

When our daughter, Kelsey, was 2 years old, I remember telling my mother-in-law that Kelsey always wanted to climb up by me in the kitchen when I was making supper. I remember my mother-in-law’s instantaneous response, “Well, let her!” Then she began to tell me all the little ways I could include her in the kitchen, and her chuckling way of expressing that, yes, it wouldn’t go as smoothly or as fast as it would’ve, but she’s got to learn and she’ll get used to being there, and that’s how she’d learn to like to be in the kitchen, and that’s how she’d done it with her four daughters….Also, as they got older, we divided up the housecleaning tasks, starting at least by 4 years old: (Dane: dust, vacuum, 1 bathroom–yes, boys can do bathrooms, just not as well:) take the garbage out, help Dad with the outside work and garage clean-up periodically, etc. Lawn mowing became his job at 9 years old.

http://www.wendygunn.net/2009/11/work-is-not-a-four-letter-word/

Comment #18: oldfeminist  on  01/23  at  01:28 PM

@Hobbes #17
I didn’t mean she should be ashamed of how she came to be. I just meant the way she said it made it sound like women shouldn’t complain about being used as incubators whenever a man decides he wants to use us as such.

Comment #19: autonomousautomaton  on  01/23  at  01:38 PM

My greyhound gets that look on his face when he’s desperate to go outside and pee and I’m trying to ignore him because I’m just two enemies away from completing a level in Gears of War Horde mode. Of course, with the hound, if I continue to ignore him, that muley expression is soon replaced with grim resignation and the sound of dog piss hitting my new laminate floor. Even my dog has more of a spine than that woman.

Comment #20: adobedragon  on  01/23  at  01:38 PM

If barebacking/bugchasing is a fetish among some gay men, not surprising that impregnation is a fetish among some hetero men.  Both fetishes have serious consequences for public health, but only one gets deferred to by policymakers.

Comment #21: chiefscribe  on  01/23  at  01:50 PM

@Hobbes:

I’ve met (pro-choice) people who were the “product of rape” who had extremely difficult and depressing times once they learned about the circumstances of their conception, because they felt like they didn’t deserve to live.

I’m not sure what that has to do with anything.  Yes, people will believe things irrationally.  Given a twist of fate, there are a thousand ways I might not have been born.

But the heart of the pro-choice argument is that its the mother that gets to choose whether to carry the child to term, not the priest or the mayor or the plurality voters.  If a child is the product of rape and gets born, I imagine it would be refreshing to know that s/he was born because his/her mother wanted to keep the child.  Not because his/her mother was forced at gunpoint by the moral majority to do so.

I’ve got a friend whose mom regularly jokes that he was a total accident.  He’s turned out alright, all things considered.

Comment #22: Zifnab  on  01/23  at  01:51 PM

oldfeminist, I’m all for teaching kids to do chores as soon as they’re old enough. But kids, not just girls. (“Boys can do bathrooms, just not as well”?! WTF, boys are equally capable of using freaking Lysol and a cleaning rag, and if they pretend otherwise they are full of it.)

Contraception: The spin I got from Catholic youth propaganda was that you didn’t really love your spouse* if you used contraception, because you didn’t fully accept their fertility as part of them. They tried to make it sound like contraception was the equivalent of asking your spouse to get plastic surgery to look like someone else in bed. It was pretty impressive spin, actually. (*Obviously they assumed you wouldn’t be doing anything requiring contraception if you weren’t married.)

It was basically half naturalistic fallacy and half “It’s cheating to enjoy having sex without having to risk pregnancy!” Obviously the root is the belief that sex is inherently sinful and should only be allowed for procreation and you really shouldn’t enjoy it at all, but rationalizing that to make it sound less harsh turned into something really weird.

Comment #23: snowmentality  on  01/23  at  01:52 PM

If the child was a product of rape pre-Roe, I can see a serious existential angst going on there, but frankly, that existential angst should happen for any child born pre-Roe: Were you actually wanted, or were you just an accident that your parents had no choice but to make-do with?

However, post-Roe children have significantly less angst to contend with. And a child born of rape post-Roe? Holy shit, talk about “I know I was wanted. No planned, and my mom didn’t have a say on my dad, but not a lot of people would have given her shit for not having me and she had me anyway.” I think you could still chalk up “I wasn’t wanted” for a non-rape pregnancy in a lot of more conservative areas because the pressure for women not to have abortions means abortion might as well be illegal.

Comment #24: Mighty Ponygirl  on  01/23  at  01:57 PM

Women are a bit more like ranch dogs than modern pet-dogs in this view. Controlled, loyal, and expected to work. But they’re told they’ll be like pet-dogs, i.e. pampered. It’s a lie.

Comment #25: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/23  at  02:01 PM

The Times is wrong, abortion didn’t become a central issue for evangelicals until the eighties with Jerry Falwell and the Moral Majority.

Abortion didn’t become the rallying cry of the Religous Right until the fall of Communism in the Soviet Bloc.

No more godless Commie menace with which to scare the church ladies into tithing, and turn out to vote for the Repubs.

Some new demon must be named; Black Welfare Queens and their Cadillacs weren’t frightening enuf.

They adopted another whipping boy at the about same time. Teh gays were also dying of AIDS about then—and definitely going to hell for the SECHS—so there was also that evil horde which with to whip the fundies into emptying their pockets for politicians who would demonize ‘em.

 

Comment #26: judybrowni  on  01/23  at  02:01 PM

P.S. I mentioned that, because Amanda mentioned “contraceptive culture,” and the Catholic propaganda called what I described “contraceptive mentality”—that you were pushing away or rejecting your partner by using contraception. It really does lead to the idea that not being allowed to say “no, I don’t want to have a baby right now” is related to not being allowed to say “no, you can’t treat me like that” or “no, I disagree with you.” If setting the boundary of not wanting to get pregnant is rejection and means you don’t really love your partner, then what about setting other boundaries?

Also, relatedly, an evangelical Christian Facebook friend recently posted the following: “Adam and Eve were so one that Eve didn’t have a name until after the fall. […] Wow…to exist in a state of oneness like that.”

I was really not sure how to even start expressing the levels of squick that gave me.

Comment #27: snowmentality  on  01/23  at  02:05 PM

EWWWW

The revolting thing about that picture isn’t her puppy-dog look - which is dopey, yes, but people in love look at each other that way from time to time - I don’t want to see that particularly, but it doesn’t make me want to reach for the bleach.
The revolting thing is that he isn’t reciprocating. His smile is for other people, real people who matter. He has more important things to attend to than some woman loving at him with her supremely unimportant womanlove!

Yeuch.

Comment #28: MissPrism  on  01/23  at  02:09 PM

I thought of Sperm Magic today, too, when I read about Patrick Wooden‘s homophobic speech:

The God of the Bible made the human sperm, the God of the Bible designed it and it was not designed to be emptied into an area that is filled with feces, there is nothing for it to germinate with, it will most certainly mean the extinction of the human race.

Comment #29: colorlessblue  on  01/23  at  02:18 PM

snowmentality, I believed the Catholic line so much that by age 12 or so I had decided I simply wasn’t ever going to have sex.  I knew I didn’t want kids, and that was the simple, sin-free way to make sure it never happened.

Comment #30: bomberE  on  01/23  at  02:20 PM

Some troll came on here and claimed that women controlling and deciding when to bear a child would be like blocking the Sun/God from their children.  Children should know they come from God and no where else, and if a mother lets her children know that she was the deciderer, well that would really fuck them up.

Further proof that when fundies say “god”, they mean “me”.

Comment #31: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/23  at  02:36 PM

Big difference between kids helping with chores, oldfeminist, and their parents shoving all/most household responsibilities onto them. I don’t think it’s possible for a child younger than, say, 8 to take over most household chores. But maybe I’m wrong. I didn’t think anyone would ]http://www.salon.com/2010/02/23/no_greater_joy/singleton/?mobile.html”] hit a 6-month-old baby with sticks[/url], but I was wrong about that too.

Comment #32: KristinMH  on  01/23  at  02:38 PM

@ 16 “product of rape” sounds like a really horrible way to describe someone or themselves.  ive seen it around.  is that the term people choose for themselves? 

product of canada
product of china
product of rape

yeah. not feeling it.

Comment #33: gardenom  on  01/23  at  02:48 PM

I was fascinated to read in the Huffington Post that Karen Santorum lived for most of her 20’s with a much-older ob/gyn who started an abortion clinic.  She finally broke up with him because she wanted children and he’d already done that.  A law-school friend saw her after she started up with Santorum and said she’d started dressing like Hester Prynne.  I wonder how much of Santorum’s anti-sex-outside- of -marriage, anti-birth control, anti-abortion, anti-women’s-agency is a reaction to the understanding that she had torrid sex with somebody who wasn’t him, and didn’t suffer any adverse consequences for her “sins”.  Well, except for the lifetime of slut-shaming I expect he’s been administering.  I suddendly find her a sympathetic character.

Comment #34: gretchen  on  01/23  at  02:52 PM

gardenom, children are often referred to as a “product of love” or as a product otherwise. To say a child is a product of rape is simply following that established phrasing convention.

Comment #35: Mighty Ponygirl  on  01/23  at  03:04 PM

What if you’re a product of jello-shots?!?

Comment #36: Thealogian  on  01/23  at  03:11 PM

@33 The idea of referring to oneself as the product of anything is pretty gross. “Product of rape” is way worse, but thinking of myself as a “product of my parents fucking each other” gives me the willies.

Comment #37: Jimmy  on  01/23  at  03:12 PM

All that’s missing from that photo is a pair of his slippers in her mouth.

Comment #38: Toonces Tigerlily  on  01/23  at  03:17 PM

Jimmy, that’s probably more from the mental image of your parents fucking.

Most people don’t refer to themselves as a product. Sort of like I don’t refer to myself as an asshole, but plenty of other people do.

Comment #39: Mighty Ponygirl  on  01/23  at  03:18 PM

The one thing I would caution everyone is that I do think that pro-choice activists tend to overstate somewhat the actual threat to reproductive rights. There is a threat, especially to such things like later-in the-term abortion rights and reproductive rights for poorer Americans. But the core abortion right is actually not threatened nearly as much as people say it is.

The perspective you need to keep is this—pro-lifers have fought Roe for almost 40 years now. And what have they gotten? They’ve been able to nibble off some of the issues where their side is actually more popular—parental consent, government funding, late term abortions, waiting periods, etc. None of that is a good thing. But they’ve had no impact, despite all that money, all that activism, all the Supreme Court appointments, and one major political party almost completely behind them, on the core abortion right. They got close to overturning Roe in the early 1990’s and then one of the Supreme Court justices switched his vote, which is something that is actually extremely rare in American history.

And since the 1990’s, they’ve continued to lose on the core right. Does this mean be complacent? No. But it does mean don’t panic either. Pro-choicers have succeeded in weaving Roe into the fabric of America. People like the Duggards are notable precisely because they are DISSENTERS from a pretty strong social consensus. The reality is that it’s the pro-choice candidates who run on their records and the pro-life candidates who always have to downplay it and talk about changing hearts and minds.

This is an issue we’ve won on, and we have to be able to take stock of that rather than constantly living in fear that we are going to lose on it. It would actually take a dramatic shift of public opinion in a regressive, anti-modern direction for our side to lose.

Comment #40: Dilan Esper  on  01/23  at  03:21 PM

@Dilan “But they’ve had no impact, despite all that money, all that activism.” Umm, they kept pro-choice advocates and activist from expanding access because we’re constantly having to re-fight Roe. They’ve won quite a bit of ground and they have kept so many from contraceptive access as well as abortion access. I don’t think pointing that out is some sort of pro-choice scare tactic/chicken little response. Its reality and it sucks.

Comment #41: Thealogian  on  01/23  at  03:30 PM

Big difference between kids helping with chores, oldfeminist, and their parents shoving all/most household responsibilities onto them. I don’t think it’s possible for a child younger than, say, 8 to take over most household chores. But maybe I’m wrong. I didn’t think anyone would ]]http://www.salon.com/2010/02/23/no_greater_joy/singleton/?mobile.html”] hit a 6-month-old baby with sticks[/url], but I was wrong about that too.
Comment #32: KristinMH on 01/23 at 02:38 PM

Yes, there is a big difference. 

The sites I quoted from suggest that this isn’t just little nine-year-old Jimmy helping dig the garden, it’s dutiful nine-year-old Jimmy having as his chore “mowing the lawn.”

I’m not sure if you think I’m saying this is a good idea; I do not.  I’m not sure if you think I’m saying that the parents wouldn’t have to do anything around the house when their kids are five; I was not.  But there’s a lot those kids can do, and in fact if you want them to be your little housekeepers you have to start training them early, both skill-wise and “this is normal”-wise.

Comment #42: oldfeminist  on  01/23  at  03:31 PM

Slightly off topic, but still abortion-based:

Sebastian at Obsidian Wings claims that abortion has less political traction in Europe because it is much more restricted than in the US.

I think he’s wrong, and that it has much more to do with Europe being less religious and less tolerant of religion influencing politics.  But it’s worth a look, if just to see the (sometimes rather extraordinary) restrictions on abortion in Europe.

Comment #43: Pejar  on  01/23  at  03:33 PM

@Pejar

Bad argument, really bad argument (Sebastian’s). First off, abortion is often covered as part of universal healthcare programs in European countries (excepting notably Ireland, but many Irish women go to the UK for abortions and often get them for free) therefore the problem of getting an abortion as soon as you need one, especially in the first 12 weeks, is less problematic there, therefore the earlier cut-off is less of a problem logistically European women whereas in the states, getting cash for an abortion together is a barrier often cited in 2 trimester abortions (though still the vast majority of abortions in the US and in Europe occur before 12 weeks). Also, health and life of the mother exceptions for later term abortions are often in play for later term abortions in Europe as well and therefore aren’t really “restrictions” as mental health is also taken seriously as grounds for exceptions.

Comment #44: Thealogian  on  01/23  at  03:42 PM

Comment #18: oldfeminist on 01/23

When our daughter, Kelsey, was 2 years old, I remember telling my mother-in-law that Kelsey always wanted to climb up by me in the kitchen when I was making supper. I remember my mother-in-law’s instantaneous response, “Well, let her!”

NO! NONONONONONOOOOO!!! Is she OUT OF HER MIND?? The kitchen counter workspace has jutting toddler-head-level cabinet corners, hot toasters, plugged-in blenders and coffee grinders, potentially poisonous/sickening uncooked foods, glass, butcher knives, plastic bags, open flames, hot pans and boiling water! Just, NO. The kid is two years old!! FFS I get nervous with my husband too near while I’m trying to work in the kitchen, and he’s a grown-ass man.

And, that photo is just ghastly. Hopefully it is one of those mid-expression trick photos, unrepresentative of the actual moment, like all those “crazy” photos of Hillary Clinton that were simply taken mid-speech. Hopefully. But the editor’s choice to use it is spot-on.

Comment #45: MoseyMcShuffleson  on  01/23  at  04:10 PM

All the conservative men want the role
where all women are under their control.
By state bad laws passed to fulfill the wish
to dominate by dint of hardened penis.
Their fists held readied to slap, punch, and sock;
brutal weapons wielded, guns, knives, and cock

Comment #46: R.T.  on  01/23  at  04:22 PM

@Dilan “But they’ve had no impact, despite all that money, all that activism.” Umm, they kept pro-choice advocates and activist from expanding access because we’re constantly having to re-fight Roe.

I don’t think so. I think public opinion has done that.

Bear in mind that there’s basically no nation on earth that has (and I’ll use the right wing term here because it is descriptive in this context) “abortion on demand”. If you want to take a maximalist view of reproductive choice and measure any regulatory regime against it, then sure, the pro-lifers have won. All over the world. For instance, you’ll find lots of governmental funding for abortions is most of Europe, but you will also find much stricter regulatory hoops and restrictions on the core right.

The universality of some sort of restrictions on abortion shows you that it’s just not possible to “expand” the right as far as we might want and not “re-fight Roe”. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try, but it does mean that we shouldn’t assume that if we are failing just because we are often on defense. The reason we are on defense is because we’re ahead, and have been ahead for almost four decades.

We just aren’t that close to a regime where it’s impossible for women to get an abortion. And that’s because the actual agenda of our opponents, outside of a few on-the-margins things like partial-birth, is deeply unpopular. And it’s very important to remember that.

Comment #47: Dilan Esper  on  01/23  at  04:35 PM

“The reality is that it’s the pro-choice candidates who run on their records and the pro-life candidates who always have to downplay it and talk about changing hearts and minds.”

...depends on the audience.  Among their own, the anti-choice brigade behave exactly opposite of what you described.

In a way, Santorum is brave (bravely stupid) by talking about contraception as if it was as bad as abortion (or is literally a form of abortion).  No body else is dumb enough to lay out the truth of what they want so explicitly.  So besides a new word, Santorum has helped us by showing a glimpse of his true colors.

“This is an issue we’ve won on, and we have to be able to take stock of that rather than constantly living in fear that we are going to lose on it.”

It’s far from clear that we have “won” on choice.  Most of the time the sides are presented through the language of the anti-choice side.  Access to clinics gets harder and harder.  More and more restrictions have been put in place, thanks to a SCOTUS that has been encouraging that sort of thing.  If we take it for granted, it won’t last…


“It would actually take a dramatic shift of public opinion in a regressive, anti-modern direction for our side to lose.”

That assumes “dramatic shifts of public opinion” don’t occurr very often.  Examine these sentences and tell me we don’t change in dramatic ways very quickly:

“It would actually take a dramatic shift of public opinion in a regressive, anti modern direction for Americans to accept and embrace the use of routine torture in prisoners of war.”

“It would actually take a dramatic shift of public opinion in a regressive, anti-modern direction for Americans to accept being treated like federal criminals when boarding a plane to see aunt Millie.”

“It would actually take a dramatic shift of public opinion in a regressive, anti-modern direction for Ameicans to blithely accept giving trillions to bailout billionaires while we try to save millions by denying needy Americans healthcare and social security”...

Comment #48: MikeEss  on  01/23  at  04:51 PM

We just aren’t that close to a regime where it’s impossible for women to get an abortion.

Is that where the line’s being drawn, though - against “a regime where it’s impossible for women to get an abortion”?  Because it’s awfully minimalist, & the anti-choice side can make lots of mischief short of that line.  If they make it increasingly close to impossible for increasingly more women, how much difference does being “ahead” really make?

Comment #49: GSDavis  on  01/23  at  05:05 PM

Yeah, that picture is incredibly creepy, but it’s making me think it could have been taken at an unfortunate instant, like when you’re in the middle of a sneeze and you look like a fucking monster. The poor woman might have just been dissolving into helpless laughter at one of her godlike husband’s devastating witticisms.

I just don’t see a human being (yeah, I know, women aren’t actually human) keeping a look that soppy on their face for any extended period of time. Or maybe I just really don’t get how bad this shit is.

Comment #50: junk science  on  01/23  at  05:24 PM

I think that’s a new record for stick rule.

Comment #51: Mighty Ponygirl  on  01/23  at  05:30 PM

Comment #50: junk science

This blog is a good resource for understanding quiverfull and wifey submission if you are interested in reading further:

http://lovejoyfeminism.blogspot.com

Comment #52: R.T.  on  01/23  at  05:30 PM

Dilan, if it’s legal to get an abortion but physically impossible for a large portion of women to actually exercise that right, that’s winning.  If they make it harder for people of lesser means to obtain them, that’s winning. 

If they aren’t saying “this far but no farther” but instead are saying “never, over my dead body” and that inspires them to lie, murder, and so on, and they keep a large portion of women away from getting the abortions they want, that’s winning.

It may surprise you to know that “abortion on demand” isn’t a right-wing phrasing, it’s the actual ideal.  As is the word “entitlement” in “entitlement programs” which some right wing jackasses have been using with either “these lowlife lazy bums think they’re ENTITLED to this, can you believe it!!!!!!!!!!!!!” or “how dare the Democraps imply that Social Security is us acting all ENTITLED when we earned the money!!!!!!!!”

Entitled in the vernacular being cousin to snob and snooty and uppity and shrill and loudmouthed and all those other “you don’t belong here” words.

In fact it just means that you’re, you know, entitled to it.  It’s been assigned to you by law and it’s your right to collect it.

Comment #53: oldfeminist  on  01/23  at  05:32 PM

What if you’re a product of jello-shots?!?

“Mommy, where do babies come from?”
“Well, Jimmy, When a man and a woman are really, really drunk…”

Comment #54: Jayn Newell  on  01/23  at  05:44 PM

What if you’re a product of jello-shots?!?

Then I think it’s actually against the law for you to be a vegan?

Comment #55: Mighty Ponygirl  on  01/23  at  05:51 PM

It’s not horrible to have a fertility fetish.  Fetishes are fetishes; you have them.  It’s horrible to do bad things to satisfy yourself sexually, whether it’s to serve a fetish or more “default” forms of desire.

But alt.sex.stories.moderated has some pretty hot fertility fetish stories.  Take as much “me time” as you want.

Comment #56: Punditus Maximus  on  01/23  at  06:02 PM

The reason we are on defense is because we’re ahead, and have been ahead for almost four decades.

And the Reichwing keeps making third-down conversions and field goals. We’re not trying to run out the clock here. It’s not enough to say “it could be worse”. Until the ball starts moving in our direction again, yes the anti-choice brigade is winning.

Comment #57: Jayn Newell  on  01/23  at  06:02 PM

@Comment #51

Stick Rule on AnonymousDouche.

Comment #58: atheist  on  01/23  at  06:05 PM

Thanks for that, Jayn.  Bit down hard to restrain myself from extending the sports metaphor my ownself…

Comment #59: GSDavis  on  01/23  at  06:57 PM

I’m really glad that people are becoming more aware of the Duggars’ dangerous lifestyle and realizing they’re not just one big happy family.

One point that I really have to stress is that when politicians want to save “traditional marriage” from the threat of marriage equality, this is the type of marriage they want to preserve.  And same-sex marriage can threaten something like this because it’s harder to scare women into submission with vague ideas about what will happen if we don’t all buy into gender essentialism when there is a family down the road where clearly at least one man is doing women’s work or one woman is doing men’s work and the world doesn’t explode because of it.

And this is why feminists need to continue being allies with LGBT activists.  The two issues are linked so close together.

Comment #60: bananacat  on  01/23  at  07:02 PM

Dilan, if it’s legal to get an abortion but physically impossible for a large portion of women to actually exercise that right, that’s winning.

No, but the problem is the words “large portion”. Despite the outrages (i.e., that there are a couple of mountain states where pro-life terrorists have closed down all the clinics), there are very few HEAVILY POPULATED places in this country where abortion services are not reasonably close by. (And bear in mind, even in pro-choice nirvana, there aren’t going to be many clinics in rural areas just because of supply and demand realities.)

They really haven’t succeeded in curtailing the right. And they haven’t gotten past square one in terms of moving public opinion.

Pro-choice is the WINNING position. It is popular. And we need to start acting like winners.

(And by the way, I agree that the ideal is no restrictions. But the reality is that doesn’t exist anywhere in the world and probably never will. The REASON our side is winning is because we form a majority coalition between people that think abortion should just be flatly legal and people who are troubled by the practice but who don’t agree with the sorts of restrictions that would make it impossible or extremely difficult to get an abortion. That’s the same coalition that keeps abortion legal in other countries as well. The reality is, the way you manage that coalition is by fighting on the core right.)

Comment #61: Dilan Esper  on  01/23  at  07:32 PM

And the Reichwing keeps making third-down conversions and field goals.

The right wing has not made a single third down conversion, let alone a field goal. They are fighting for field position in the shadow of their own end zone. They are nowhere near their goals. That’s the point. We need to stop pretending the basic pro-choice position is less popular than it is.

Comment #62: Dilan Esper  on  01/23  at  07:34 PM

We just aren’t that close to a regime where it’s impossible for women to get an abortion. And that’s because the actual agenda of our opponents, outside of a few on-the-margins things like partial-birth, is deeply unpopular. And it’s very important to remember that.

That is just stupid/missing the point.  How deeply inconvenient does it have to be before it trips your alarm?  “Deny, degrade, destroy” is such a convenient concept (thank you, US Army).  Which part of ‘deny and degrade’ aren’t you comprehending?

Comment #63: Eric_RoM  on  01/23  at  07:42 PM

Your concerns are noted, Dilan. We will try to tone down the ladylike hysteria.

Comment #64: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/23  at  07:50 PM

We just aren’t that close to a regime where it’s impossible for women to get an abortion.

Abortions are a crime in Brazil and yet it’s not impossible to get one. However:

Unsafe abortion is also a leading cause of maternal mortality, accounting for more than nine percent of maternal deaths in Brazil. Abortion is illegal except in cases of rape or danger to a woman’s life. However, an estimated 1 million abortions, the vast majority of which are illegal, are performed in the country every year, and approximately 250,000 women and girls are hospitalized for complications of these procedures annually. Rates of abortion and abortion- related complications are higher in poorer regions of the country and among more disadvantaged racial and ethnic groups, contributing significantly to the vulnerability of these women to maternal death and injury.

You can be far from a regime where it’s impossible to get one, and still be losing by a lot.

Comment #65: colorlessblue  on  01/23  at  08:01 PM

MoseyMcShuffleson @ 45, my 3yo daughter was just sitting on the counter next to me happily prattling away and asking questions about the faux Thai food I was preparing—tasting little bits of things, even helping to stir the pot. She’s been kitchen-friendly since before she was two: she knows not to touch knives or anything that’s on the stove.

Comment #66: felagund  on  01/23  at  08:11 PM

Comment #66: felagund on 01/23
Oh. Well, then. You’re a parent, I’m not, so I guess you’d know. All my child safety mental alerts may be a bit skewed from working at sort of a day camp for very young kids and dealing with panicked parents all day long. You let a kid use a glass jar for watercoloring and bam! you’ve got an angry parent at your desk dropping f-bombs all over the place. But I’m pretty sure that if a two-year-old were on the counter while I, personally, was cooking, tragedy would eventually ensue.

Comment #67: MoseyMcShuffleson  on  01/23  at  08:22 PM

plus, you know, because of that job when I think of “two-year-olds” I think of twenty five two-year-olds at once.

Comment #68: MoseyMcShuffleson  on  01/23  at  08:25 PM

I see a lot of similarities between the Duggars and the Tebows.  I remember that it was brought up that if Tim’s mom had died from labor complications, she would have left 5 children without a mom.  Now imagine how lucky Michelle was to not die from complications from having 4 times as many babies, mainly thanks to secular medicine.

Comment #69: Albert Cirrus  on  01/23  at  08:33 PM

And Amanda, did you see the story about Rand Paul refusing to be

Comment #70: Albert Cirrus  on  01/23  at  08:37 PM

And Amanda, did you see the story about Rand Paul refusing a body pat down after the metal detector went off at the airport?  He was flying to Washington to speak at an anti-choice rally, does anybody else see the irony in this?  As a male he doesn’t want the government telling him what to do with his body, but he wants to tell women what to do.

Comment #71: Albert Cirrus  on  01/23  at  08:42 PM

(And bear in mind, even in pro-choice nirvana, there aren’t going to be many clinics in rural areas just because of supply and demand realities.)

If abortion were treated as what it is, namely medical care, it wouldn’t be a supply and demand issue.  It would be—and should be—a health care right.

Many doctors, even OBs, don’t learn how to do abortions either because they are allowed to opt out of such training or their training occurs in Catholic hospitals or other institutions that don’t offer the services.  If no one knows how to do abortions, then it’s hard to get one even if it’s legal.

Why was it such a tragedy that George Tiller was killed?  Why did the forced gestationists think it so important to kill him?  Because he was one of the last few doctors skilled in late term abortions.  He was skilled in saving women’s lives and health and future fertility.

We can’t have that.  Only the Santorums are allowed to choose an abortion to save the mother’s life.

 

Comment #72: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  01/23  at  08:48 PM

Mr. Duggar is one sad human being.  He so needs to feel superior to something or someone that he treats his wife like a baby-machine.  What (beside sperm) is he contributing to the household?  His wife makes the babies and the babies make the money.

Comment #73: Cay  on  01/23  at  09:17 PM

Dilan, are you sure a country where abortion is legal by the whim of Anthony Kennedy is so secure?

Say Obama loses and Romney gets to replace a pro choice justice. That could well be the end of Roe. Even if Romney is a fake right to lifer, why would he stand up to his own base over a right that won’t affect him or his? And there’s no reason to believe that they’ll stop with overruling Roe, rather than deciding the constitution prohibits abortion.

Comment #74: witless chum  on  01/23  at  10:47 PM

  Dilan, if it’s legal to get an abortion but physically impossible for a large portion of women to actually exercise that right, that’s winning.

No, but the problem is the words “large portion”. Despite the outrages (i.e., that there are a couple of mountain states where pro-life terrorists have closed down all the clinics), there are very few HEAVILY POPULATED places in this country where abortion services are not reasonably close by.
Comment #61: Dilan Esper on 01/23 at 07:32 PM

So abortion might as well be illegal for women in “mountain states” or whatever flyover you don’t care about, but that’s “winning”?

You are Charlie Sheen and I claim my five pounds.

Comment #75: oldfeminist  on  01/23  at  11:02 PM

Here’s an interesting take on the Duggars.

Comment #76: KarenJo12  on  01/23  at  11:15 PM

@Dilan:You’re wrong. I mean, it might make sense if you think that their goal is to ban abortion and even contraception for everybody, but there’s no reason to think that is their goal. You have to look at the bigger picture, and how things tie in to the larger story.

They don’t want to ban abortion. They don’t want to ban contraception. For them. They want to ban them for out-groups/under-classes. The restrictions, which they are successful with ARE the goal in and of themselves. It’s supposed to make it hard for the poor and the isolated. That’s the entire point, and it fits into their entire worldview (neo-calvinism)

When you look at it from that point of view, they are winning, hands down. Without a doubt.

Re: Last paragraph of the OP, personally I think the “sperm magic”, and how it’s expressed is actually part of the same root cause. Over the last decade or two (or three, but I’m too young to remember that) there has been a real decided shift towards the importance of theism in and of itself over the importance of the natures of said belief, going along with the idea of proving the social and cultural power of theism, monotheism to be specific. (Judeo-Christian monotheism to be REALLY specific). I do believe at the end of the day, proving this power it what drives the anti-abortion lobby. The power to push their weight around and show that the weak and the powerless are that way for a REASON. Blech.

Comment #77: Karmakin  on  01/24  at  07:48 AM

I haven’t finished even the article yet, but fuck, I expect The Times to do better than this:

Certain religious groups tend to have large families, whether for reasons of religious observance, as with some Jews, or because it is culturally approved, as in Mormonism.

Large families are part of religious observance in Mormonism, not just culture.  Don’t they have any fact checkers left at all?

Comment #78: helen w. h.  on  01/24  at  10:07 AM

I keep seeing the phrase “stick rule” used, but I don’t know what it means, and Google isn’t helping. Could someone please explain?

Comment #79: DataSnake  on  01/24  at  10:41 AM

If a comment or comments indicate the poster is dumber than a stick, others can request they be banned by calling stick rule.

Comment #80: helen w. h.  on  01/24  at  10:53 AM

#43 that post is an off-shoot from a 450+ comment thread on Crooked Timber about, you guesed it, abortion, making the “do you trust women” argument.

The whole “Sebastian” thing is a bit confusing, cos there are three of them posting (I think), but there was at least one comparing US to European legislation, and saying that because Scandinavia has more restrictive abortion laws than much of the US, therefore that meant that according to the “trusting women” argument, Scandanavia doesn’t trust women.  This was supposed to be a refutation of the point that restrictions on abortion mean not trusting women because Scandanavia, in his mind, clearly trusts women (because Scandanavia) and still has abortion restrictions.  QED.  Or something.

Have a look at the whole thread if you like - it’s equal parts frustrating and brilliant: http://crookedtimber.org/2012/01/20/do-you-trust-women/#comments

Comment #81: Katherine  on  01/24  at  10:53 AM

Also, I’ll chime in here as another reprobate parent who - gasp - lets her 4 year-old child use knives, stir pots, sit on the counter (while I’m there) etc - and I did when she was two (although I probably gave her the smaller knives, since they can be pretty heavy for toddler hands).

Comment #82: Katherine  on  01/24  at  10:56 AM

Amanda:

It’s not concern trolling. It ticks me off that the pro-choice side runs around acting like we have an unpopular position that hangs like a thread. The result of this is all sorts of media coverage and perception that abortion rights aren’t that popular, which becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. It raises money for pro-choice groups, but it costs our side a ton in the perception battle.

We are acting like losers. And i hate it.

We are the WINNING side. Acting like it will make the right MORE popular and paint the other side MORE extremist. And it has the advantage of being true.

Comment #83: Dilan Esper  on  01/24  at  12:31 PM

#72:

Actually, one of the reasons why we don’t have enough abortion providers is because it is considered “controversial”, and one reason for that is because of the constant “we’re losing” posture taken by pro-choice groups. Whereas if we advertised how we have won on this issue and our position is popular, that would change the perception of how “controversial” it is.

#74:

It would not be good if Republicans appoint more pro-life justices. But 1992 should have taught people something about this. It’s not nearly as easy to overturn the core right when the conservative position is so unpopular. The pro-choice movement keeps saying Roe hangs by a thread, but it actually is a lot more secure than one might think. A Republican majority may chip away at it, which is bad, but Roe is VERY popular and isn’t going anywhere.

#75:

The problem of lack of availability outside population centers is a classic example of how little impact pro-lifers have. It isn’t right that there are a couple of states without clinics. But that’s simply not having a large impact on the abortion rate. And if you define that as “losing”, congratulations, you’ve just bought into the pro-lifers’ claims that abortion is unpopular and controversial.

#77:

The pro-life goal IS to make abortion illegal. It is not to reduce the abortion rate. (If it was, they’d work with pro-choicers on contraception.) That’s their stated goal, and that’s consistent with their strategies the last four decades. They are trying to make it illegal and they are failures. I can’t think of a social movement that has been such a complete and utter failure at achieving its stated goal but which gets so much positive media coverage.

And yet the average American does not think of these people as losers. And the reason is we’ve never put that message out. Pro-choice groups would rather overstate the threat to raise more money.

Comment #84: Dilan Esper  on  01/24  at  12:44 PM

#75:
The problem of lack of availability outside population centers is a classic example of how little impact pro-lifers have. It isn’t right that there are a couple of states without clinics. But that’s simply not having a large impact on the abortion rate. And if you define that as “losing”, congratulations, you’ve just bought into the pro-lifers’ claims that abortion is unpopular and controversial.
Comment #84: Dilan Esper on 01/24 at 12:44 PM

What?

No, I haven’t bought into anything.  I believe they have lied about abortion, especially late-term abortion, so that people think it’s something different from what it is and base their opinions on lies.  It is controversial because of these lies.

Really, I can understand that they have won and not think they’ve won fairly.  Why can’t you?

Comment #85: oldfeminist  on  01/24  at  12:50 PM

Seriously, if the female population of an entire state can’t get abortions because of where they live, that is pretty damning and certainly an indication of a lost battle. 
We are winning, mostly, the war; but we are losing some pretty significant battles that have real life consequences for real people.  It is not because we don’t acknowledge we have won, because we haven’t won so long as the fight is still on, but because the right to life people are often liars and even more often evil to at least the banial level (placing a fetus above the actual born person who happens to be carrying it is at a min banially evil and wholy unempathic).

Comment #86: helen w. h.  on  01/24  at  01:21 PM

Hey, if Dilan wants an abortion, he feels totally confident he can get one, so what are all you silly uteruses whining about?

Comment #87: kristin  on  01/24  at  02:27 PM

@Comment #83: Dilan Esper on 01/24 at 12:31 PM

We are the WINNING side. Acting like it will make the right MORE popular and paint the other side MORE extremist. And it has the advantage of being true.

Sure thing Dr. Pangloss.

@Comment #84: Dilan Esper on 01/24 at 12:44 PM

The pro-life goal IS to make abortion illegal. It is not to reduce the abortion rate.

Actually it’s neither. Their true goal is to control and punish female sexuality.

Comment #88: atheist  on  01/24  at  03:24 PM

Slowly and consistently losing ground isn’t winning. 

The argument that

1) We are winning
2) Therefore we need to change what we are doing
3) Because we’re losing some ground and that’s a problem
4) We’re losing ground because we’re acting like there’s a problem
5) But there’s no problem, we’re winning, stop pretending there’s a problem, that’s why we’re losing ground!

Is not coherent to me. 

“Pro-life” is also not a term used by most people who support abortion rights.  It’s buying into and spreading the forced-birther framing of the issue and posing it as a fight between people who are pro-life and…anti-life.

Comment #89: Nimravid  on  01/25  at  12:35 AM

I’m really wondering from the comments if I’m making a controversial statement when I say I don’t see anything wrong with having children do a great deal of the housework, including this parenting “partner” thing.  What bothers me is the gendered division of work. 

I realize not everyone’s raised the same way, but I wonder if the squeamishness of having, say, 4-year-olds doing housework is just a function of some people having the luxury now of not having their children work, and thinking that’s normal?  Or is it that it’s “too bad” if kids have to work, and it should be avoided if possible?  I (and my siblings) all did housework from “helping” as toddlers, to chores (without heavy lifting or unsupervised cooking) at 4, to normal housework at 6, and I had responsibility for a great deal of the care of a newborn when I was 11 (at 7 I just helped with the other new sib, there was always a parent present for backup.)  I was useful and learned skills that I needed later in life too.  I don’t think it’s wrong at all!

Comment #90: Nimravid  on  01/25  at  01:33 AM

“Pro-life” is also not a term used by most people who support abortion rights.  It’s buying into and spreading the forced-birther framing of the issue and posing it as a fight between people who are pro-life and…anti-life.

I use pro-choice and pro-life because that’s what the groups call themselves. Just like I referred to the Moral Majority as the Moral Majority even though it was neither moral nor a majority.

As for the rest of the responses (besides Kristin’s, which is not worthy of much of a response—if I didn’t think that women should be able to get abortions, I wouldn’t be pro-choice), I can only say the following:

There is a very serious cost to building up the pro-life movement and calling it a success when it is actually a miserable failure that hasn’t moved public opinion one inch in almost 40 years. What this does is legitimize the media and politicians treating us as if we are not the majority, as if there is an even split in the country, and as if being pro-life is not an extremist position.

It isn’t that the denial of someone’s right to an abortion is a good thing. It’s that if we declare the right lost and in grave peril BECAUSE of restrictions that affect only a small percentage of women, we make the pro-life movement into our equal. We legitimize them.

We shouldn’t legitimize them. We should laugh at them. They are pathetic. They’ve been whining about Roe v. Wade for almost 40 years. They are the least persuasive, least successful purported civil rights movement in American history. They have all this organization, they’ve stolen and defrauded their contributors out of all this money, and the best they can come up with is that they’ve made it harder to get an abortion in South Dakota????

These people are pathetic losers. And that should be our message. We are the side of over 60 percent of the country and the law of the land for almost 40 years. The other side is a tiny minority that hasn’t convinced any significant number of people despite almost four decades of trying. See how that is a better message than building these assholes up?

Comment #91: Dilan Esper  on  01/25  at  01:53 AM

It’s not a matter of saying all women have lost the right to an abortion at all; and yes, the right to have an abortion in some limited circumstances is popular.  However, forced-birthers have won restrictions, and certain restrictions on abortion are actually extremely popular; it’s not a tiny minority.  I know it’s all hypothetical to you, and maybe it seems like it’s all the same as long as Roe v. Wade stands, but the majority of women are going to be pregnant once or more in their lives and they all face restrictions on whether they can have an abortion and all would be prevented in some circumstances.  The restrictions are increasing.  As far as abortion rights being really endangered, it is not an exaggeration.  Gonzales v. Carhart shows how quickly the court can throw out abortion rights, and I don’t care about how you think me being “Rah for our side!  We kept the ability to have an abortion, as long we’re going to die if we don’t have one” is going to keep the Supreme Court or even states from rolling rights back again- popular opinion is in favor of restrictions, and the courts have the power (and some have the willingness) to add restrictions even when they’re not popular.

Comment #92: Nimravid  on  01/25  at  03:38 AM

91

. . . restrictions that affect only a small percentage of women,

 

Comment #93: rain  on  01/25  at  09:49 AM

Yes, if you happen to be one of those small precentage of women, then the right IS lost for you.  Stating that is not building up the otherside nor is it a reasonable compromise to have that so long as most women still have a right to an abortion.

Comment #94: helen w. h.  on  01/25  at  10:15 AM

It’s not a matter of saying all women have lost the right to an abortion at all; and yes, the right to have an abortion in some limited circumstances is popular.  However, forced-birthers have won restrictions, and certain restrictions on abortion are actually extremely popular; it’s not a tiny minority.  I know it’s all hypothetical to you, and maybe it seems like it’s all the same as long as Roe v. Wade stands, but the majority of women are going to be pregnant once or more in their lives and they all face restrictions on whether they can have an abortion and all would be prevented in some circumstances.

This argument proves too much. Let’s suppose that pro-lifers had even been greater miserable failures than they actually have been. Suppose Roe was still totally intact except that pro-lifers managed to get ONE abortion clinic closed somewhere.

As a result, lets say 4 women a year aren’t able to have abortion. Under those circumstances, would you still object to my claim that the pro-life movement has been a pathetic failure and is full of losers who can’t persuade anyone?

And if not, don’t you see how the fact that they have succeeded in denying the right to a few women, as bad as that is, doesn’t justify pumping them up into this winning movement on the march with substantial public support?

Comment #95: Dilan Esper  on  01/25  at  03:14 PM

Hmm.

I just finished reading Edith Wharton’s Summer. I was surprised to read in the text that even in *very* small-town New England, there was a doctor who only performed abortions. Her signs advertised as “having female attendants”.

Also, it’s stated that sex is a normal recreation, and the main character is considered very odd to be a virgin after finishing school. She also details the numerous ways she can deal with a pregnancy, child, and/or abortion. She ends up getting married, but that’s not treated as romantic. Really more creepy.

Anyway, if a book published in 1917 takes these things for granted, the Religious Right is talking out of it’s ass.

Comment #96: LoreleiHI  on  01/25  at  05:48 PM

As a result, lets say 4 women a year aren’t able to have abortion. Under those circumstances, would you still object to my claim that the pro-life movement has been a pathetic failure and is full of losers who can’t persuade anyone?

Well, let’s suppose 37 states prevented minors from getting an abortion unless their parents agreed or were informed.  Or that certain types of abortion were off the table completely for all women in 15 states unless they were going to die (no health exception at all, even with severe and irreversible damage.)  Let’s suppose the Hyde amendment was still in effect, enforcing compulsory pregnancy in 32 states for anyone dependent on, say, Medicaid, who doesn’t fall into the rape-incest-life-of-the-mother exception and can’t raise enough scratch in time (poor women don’t count, as there’s “just a few” of them, probably about 4, right?) - and of course South Dakota thinks that even that pitiful exception is too lenient; so, it’s just decided to violate federal law.  Let’s suppose that 26 states required a woman undergo counseling designed to talk her out of an abortion, required a waiting period between the counseling and an abortion (designed to punish, if not prevent, poor women who can’t easily travel or take time off from a job or childcare duties.)  Let’s suppose 7 states legally require the abortion provider to lie to you and tell you that abortion causes cancer and 5 require them to lie about the risk of sterility, completely inverting the idea of informed consent.

Yes, I’d rather live in the misogynistic hell you’ve described, where 4 women were forced to bear children they didn’t want and people somehow thought that wasn’t a big deal.  But I’d only call compulsory pregnancy of 4 women a crime, and a danger sign of a worse problem.  Right now, we already have the problem, with signs of it getting worse.

http://www.guttmacher.org/statecenter/spibs/

Comment #97: Nimravid  on  01/25  at  11:43 PM

I work at a kennel.  So, as someone who works with packs of dogs every day, I can promise you that ACTUAL dogs do not respond well to the kind of treatment Republicans want to dish out to women.

Comment #98: someofparts  on  01/26  at  11:25 AM

Funny, I never expected to see a shaggy-coated collie silently worshiping a shaved hamster outside of a lolcat photo. Something is amiss.

Comment #99: Mercutia  on  01/27  at  12:11 PM
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