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Next entry: Please, Republicans, explain how much pain you want Americans to endure Previous entry: Why Stupid Questions About Stupid Contraception Are Smart

The Great Saturday Night Fever Hoax

This week, in anticpation of the upcoming WAM Prom on Friday, I'll be blogging some thoughts on music and culture by the way of our mash-up theme of hip-hop and disco.

One of the myths about disco, one that I think that contributes to a lot of misunderstandings about it, is that it was a brief trend that collapsed as quickly as it rose up in the 70s. In reality, disco was just another step in a long 20th century evolution of dance music, and it ended for the same reason a lot of musical trends do: it morphed into other forms. If anything, disco had a larger impact than most music trends do, as elements of it came out in techno and all other electronic dance music, post-punk, New Wave, and most importantly, hip-hop (which is why we're doing a dual theme for this year's WAM Prom.) But one reason I think there's a sense that disco was its own thing in a way that other trends aren't is that the kind of dancing people think of when they think of disco is this elaborate, ballroom-style dancing that has no relationship to the bouncing and writhing that is most dancing people do in America, whether at a rock show, hip-hop club, or rave. You know what I mean. People think "disco" and they think of John Travolta playing Tony Manero.

Or Travolta's solo style dancing in the same movie:

Nothing against Travolta's unbelievable dancing skills, but this wasn't actually how people (at least prior to this movie) danced to disco, which was, from what I understand, much like they've danced to everything since, which is mostly formless bouncing and writhing. Now, all sorts of music trends have movies that exploited them to make semi-musicals with elaborate dancing, but Saturday Night Fever became synonymous in the public imagination with disco in a way that hasn't happened before or since to a musical form. Why? 

There's a lot of reasons: the dancing is really that good, the music is that much better, a zeitgeists was hit. But I think one reason is that Saturday Night Fever purported to be based on a true story, giving the audience the feeling that they really were taking a peek into the Brooklyn disco scene by watching this fictional film, in much the same way that 8 Mile got a little extra boost because it's so well-known that Eminem did in fact scrape his way up through rap battles like the one portrayed in the movie. But while I think Eminem's life is pretty well-documented, the "true story" of Saturday Night Fever is actually, well, a hoax. 

The whole thing started with a New York Magazine story by Nik Cohn in 1976 called "Inside the Tribal Rites of the New Saturday Night", a story about the elaborate disco lifestyle of the Italian-American regulars at a Bay Ridge, Brooklyn disco. The story was a hit; it seems it must have gone into development as a movie in record time. The only problem wiht it is that Cohn made the whole thing up. 

He finally admitted the hoax 20 years later, in 1997.

For an article in the December 8 issue celebrating the 20th anniversary of the movie, Cohn tells of a disco deception born of frustration. The British writer describes how he went to Brooklyn's now legendary 2001 Odyssey searching in vain for a flamboyantly dressed fellow he had spotted in the club's entrance a week earlier. "I didn't learn much...I made a lousy interviewer: I knew nothing about this world, and it showed. Quite literally, I didn't speak the language.

"So I faked it. I conjured up the story of the figure in the doorway, and named him Vincent...I wrote it all up. And presented it as fact," Cohn confesses. "There was no excuse for it...I knew the rules of magazine reporting, and I knew that I was breaking them. Bluntly put, I cheated."

The culture and specifically the emphasis on dancing skills was a mish-mash of Cohn's own imagination and what he observed in the Northern soul clubs in Great Britain in the 60s. It's one of those stories that has drifted under the waves, because most people don't really think it's that important (though why not in our James Frey-bashing era, I don't know). But while it's far from the most important story of journalistic misinformation, I still think it's not something that should be waved off. After all, Cohn's imaginings supplanted the more reality-based portrayals of disco, most of which I think are far more interesting than the image that Cohn painted. To make it all worse, if people had a better idea of how disco actually was in the 70s, I think it would be easier to see it as part of the larger quilt of American pop music, which is always mutating as different genres swap and steal and morph into something new, yet still familiar. 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 05:06 PM • (63) Comments

Personally, I think he caught disco as those who liked the scene rather wanted it to be, not how it was.  It’s not that there wasn’t a dance scene - it’s just never been a major focus.  Only the gay clubs had dance shows and as far as I know, the dance groups did their own things as well.  Never did they meet and become one big thing.

But on the other hand, dancing and stylish dancing has always been with us, whether the steps were pushed by practitioners or not.

Comment #1: Crissa  on  01/09  at  05:46 PM

Some disco, was formulaic, much was formless bouncing and writhing.  Formulaic versions of dance tend to be more like what we associate with line or square dancing, but that doesn’t mean disco didn’t have it, even prior to SNF. 
Hussle and Electric Slide were just a new version of earlier dances, leading back to 60s and 50s (e.g. the twist) which updated something else that went on back further (e.g. Hokey Pokey).  The most recent version I’d really like to forget would be the Macarena.

Comment #2: helen w. h.  on  01/09  at  05:48 PM

Almost jinx!

Comment #3: helen w. h.  on  01/09  at  05:49 PM

The disco era I lived through did indeed have that kind of dancing, albeit probably inspired by SNF, rather than the inspiration thereof. (But I lived in the exurbs of NYC, so we weren’t trendsetters anyhoo, and I wasn’t clubhopping much before senior year when SNF was released, so I can’t testify to what-all was going on beforehand.) My friends and I practiced every day after school to perfect the moves we aired out at the clubs, and we had plenty of company when we got there. A couple’s spins and dips, if well-executed enough, were worth a couple of buy-backs* from the bar. (Yes, back in the benighted era when drinking age was 18, and no bouncer I knew failed to let in 16 yr. olds just because. And the going rate for buy-backs was 1 for every 2 paid for.) Both my high school and college held disco dance contests, so the fad held on for at least 3 years.  I can still get nostalgic over my elaborate Quiana(R) wardrobe—all those polyesters, giving their lives for me.

*It occurs to me this might be a regional/dated expression needing translation: drinks comped by the bartender.

Comment #4: benvolio  on  01/09  at  05:59 PM

Here is a clip of an early techno song on a detriot tv show:

http://youtube.co/watch?v=EarSRa19sZc

the disco roots are pretty clear to see.

On the other hand, disco was super popular.  At a certain point, disco became less popular and
bands like the grateful dead stopped trying to have disco hits:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2011/12/07/the_rock_and_roll_hall_of_fame_inductees_death_to_disco_again_.html

 

Comment #5: lemmy caution  on  01/09  at  06:10 PM

Helen, I don’t disagree that disco had a bunch of shitty dance crazes, usually with accompanying nails-on-chalkboard music. But that’s pretty consistent across genres: Rock had The Twist and Mashed Potatoes. Every few years, some terrible rap song comes out with some dance craze attached to it. Americans love a shitty dance craze. I have a theory as to why, but will currently decline to explain it, except to say that I prefer *not* to play the Hustle or the Electric Slide when I’m DJ-ing. I love the grinding, freeform dancing that’s dominated pop music since the 50s. It refocuses the attention away from how “good” you are as a dancer to how much fun you’re having.

Comment #6: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/09  at  06:12 PM

As a child at the time, I don’t remember Disco being that big a deal as it is made out today.  It was just music that was popular at the time that was easy to dance to.

And even I knew at the time, that clubbing in Brooklyn was a little ridiculous.  Everyone tried to go dancing in New York City whenever possible.

Comment #7: Melponeme_k  on  01/09  at  06:28 PM

A big reason as to why that article is important is that it took a musical form that basically was created by gay people and people of color, pretty much erased those groups from picture,  and turned it into music for white ethnics. The movie became the story of a straight white guy.

This came at a time in the 70s when white ethnics were getting a lot of cultural/political attention. Up until the 60s, working class white ethnics had largely been in the Democratic camp but Nixon and other Republicans were making a big play for the white ethnic vote. Unfortunately, by and large they succeeded.

Comment #8: Kathy G.  on  01/09  at  06:39 PM

Excellent point, Kathy. I really think that someone should really write about that in depth. I was surprised at how little outrage came from the hoax revelation. For the reasons you state, I find it deeply unsettling.

Comment #9: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/09  at  06:44 PM

  There were actually two ways people danced to disco. One was free style or as you call it “formless bouncing and writing” hopefully in sync with the music. However, there was another way to dance with disco, the hustle. Disco had the honor of creating a partner dance after they more or less faded into the abyss in the mid-1960s. The Puerto Rican and African-American communities in New York basically combined East Coast Swing with salsa and modified the rhythm and created a new partner dance. Yes, I actually know how to dance the hustle. Its a lot of fun.

  One of the least remarked about cultural shifts was the collapse in common knowledge of partner dancing. Before the mid-1960s, most people knew at least the basics of some forms of partner dancing. They could do simple waltz, fox trots, or swing moves. Nothing really fancy but most people could take another person and dance with them while holding them in partner position. Knowledge of partner dancing slowly started to decrease after WWII and really increased at a frightening speed by the early 1960s. The final death knell was when a lot of pop music, especially rock music, stopped being easily danceable to. The collapse in dancing knowledge are related to how knowledge of how to sing and play instruments used to be more widely defused before recorded music became more widely available but the links are much less obvious.

    Sorry for the little rant but I dance and think that the decrease in knowledge in actual partner dancing was a very bad thing.

Comment #10: Lee  on  01/09  at  07:12 PM

God, I don’t. Every time I think I’m going to enjoy partner dancing, I don’t. It died for a reason. I refuse to return to a patriarchal system where women are only “allowed” to dance if men ask them.

Comment #11: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/09  at  07:18 PM

I love the grinding, freeform dancing that’s dominated pop music since the 50s. It refocuses the attention away from how “good” you are as a dancer to how much fun you’re having.

I love exactly that same thing, though I think it may be as much a function of the kind of subculture you’re in as anything.  I’ve seen a lot of “freeform” dancers who are clearly trying to impress, often by duplicating the moves they’ve seen on TV, and depending on the room you can be treated as an outcast if your moves aren’t “good enough.”

Having spent my youth as a writhing, freeform Dancing Fool, I’ve aged more into Lee’s attitude, especially after I began learning international folkdances.  Much as I appreciate our culture’s embrace of dance as something anybody can do, it’s too bad that we’ve largely lost the sense of it as something you can learn to do well, and as something that involves communication between two (or more) partners.

Comment #12: Cris (without an H)  on  01/09  at  07:22 PM

I refuse to return to a patriarchal system where women are only “allowed” to dance if men ask them.

This is why I love the way International and Contra manifest in this country, because you’re dancing as partners (or lines) but it tends to be pretty egalitarian.

Comment #13: Cris (without an H)  on  01/09  at  07:23 PM

I saw SNF at one of those in-town movie palaces that no longer exist.  This is the first time I ever read that it was supposed to be based on a true story.  I think I saw The Warriors at the same theater, and I thought it was just as fact-based as SNF.

Kathy G got to the real crux of the matter, which I wrote before I was erased for not being logged in and then I read the comments.  Disco was seen as “black” music in my eastern Pennsylvania blue-collar town (gay was not on the radar to me), and that was the major unspoken objection to it.  SNF was white people co-opting the those people’s music and beating them at their own game.  It wouldn’t have been the same hit had Lawrence Hilton-Jacobs played the protagonist instead of his white sweathog classmate.

Comment #14: Iam138  on  01/09  at  07:28 PM

Never saw this movie. Holy crap did Michael Jackson steal half his moves from that solo video or what?

Comment #15: Baruk  on  01/09  at  07:55 PM

Another “hoax” in that movie was the music. Once I finally saw the film, I was truly annoyed that the dancing was so good but didn’t go with the music in any way, shape, or form. Imagine my surprise to find out years later that Travolta and the choreographer never heard any of the Bee Gees music… it was all dubbed in later. No wonder the two didn’t mesh!

Comment #16: Tiger  on  01/09  at  08:03 PM

  Amanda: The current partner dancing scene is nothing like this. For one thing, its a very LBGT friendly and this kind of makes it hard to have a scene wear a woman could only dance if a man asks her very hard. Second, at the dance parties held at various studies women do ask men to dance with them. Especially if the man is a very good dancer.

    Finally, dancing is an art and average partner dancing looks a lot better than most free form dancing IMO and is much more fun IMO.

Comment #17: Lee  on  01/09  at  08:55 PM

Really? That actually makes a lot of sense. The Bee Gees are way funkier than the dancing in SNF.

Comment #18: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/09  at  08:57 PM

    OTOH, I do recognize Amanda’s point that traditional dance etiquette, especially in the ballroom dances can be very patriarchal and way overly formal. That doesn’t mean we should through out the good things about partner dancing with the bad part. It just means that we should get rid of the bad, which the modern partner dance as more or less managed to do by being very LBGT friendly overall.

Comment #19: Lee  on  01/09  at  09:01 PM

Lee, the only reason that the “current partner dance scene” is that way is that it’s a teeny subculture, like stamp collecting or battle reenactment. If you got your way, and it, ugh, because the mainstream form of dancing again, it wouldn’t be some kooky thing nerdy people did to blow off steam. All those gender norms and implications would come roaring back.

Believe me; I come from a part of the country where partner dancing is still the norm: in country-western music. You’re not going to fool me into thinking it’s something it’s not. I’ve spent enough of my life sitting around waiting—-ugh, I really, really hating waiting—-for a man to “give” me permission to dance by asking me. Sure, rigidity has a few benefits. I’m not denying it. But before you get awash in faux nostalgia, remember that Old-Timey stuff is often inseparable from some of the toxic gender norms that come with it.

Which is to say, enjoy your ballroom dancing. But learn from the stamp collectors: they know better than to think everyone else would be happier if they just started collecting some stamps.

Comment #20: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/09  at  09:13 PM

My father died when I was 6.  My mom started dating again 3 years later…and was a disco queen.  She took dance lessons.  She taught me the hustle and how to swing.  It’s fun.

And because women and LGBT people had so much open fun, there was a giant patriarchal backlash. 

And now, because it needs to be said:

Disco will never be over. It will always live in our minds and hearts. Something like this, that was this big, and this important, and this great, will never die. Oh, for a few years - maybe many years - it’ll be considered passé and ridiculous. It will be misrepresented and caricatured and sneered at, or - worse - completely ignored. People will laugh about John Travolta, Olivia Newton-John, white polyester suits and platform shoes and people going like *this*
[strikes disco pose]
: , but we had nothing to do with those things and still loved disco. Those who didn’t understand will never understand: disco was much more, and much better, than all that. Disco was too great, and too much fun, to be gone forever! It’s got to come back someday. I just hope it will be in our own lifetimes.

Comment #21: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  01/09  at  09:15 PM

The thing about hustle and nightclub two-step and their close Latin relatives, cha cha and rumba, is that they’re really fun, and they’re not that hard to learn.

Amanda’s right that ballroom has a lot of patriarchal baggage, but modern partner dancing is slowly shedding it. I teach ballroom occasionally, and more and more I’ve been seeing women learning the lead role and men learning the follow. I’m also conscious to address the class as “leads” and “follows” rather than “men” and “women.” Role-swapping is especially common in the swing and lindy scene, where you’ll see both mixed-sex and same-sex couples swapping roles in the middle of a dance.

Re: etiquette, anyone can ask anyone to dance. The main rule is that you can’t turn one person down for a particular dance and then go dance with someone else.

Comment #22: Amphigorey  on  01/09  at  09:17 PM

  Amphigorey: More importantly, teachers often would suggest to the most passionate students that its a good idea how to lead and follow regardless of what you like the best because you’ll be a better dancer that way. I did not really understand dancing that well till I started to learn how to follow.

  I agree with you to an extent that hustle, cha cha, and rumba aren’t that hard to learn. Most partner dancers aren’t really that hard to learn in their basic forms. When you get into the advanced stuff, they get hard though but most people don’t need the advanced steps unless they really want to be good at dancing or they want to compete. In Argentina, I understand that its traditionally to learn how to tango in same sex classes acceding to my tango teacher and that both genders learn how to lead and follow.

  Yes, thats the basic etiquette rule. It gets broken all the time like all other etiquette rules.

 

Comment #23: Lee  on  01/09  at  09:35 PM

Another reason disco had to be erased: men being told (even briefly) that they had to learn dance moves to be cool. Real Men Don’t Dance when it’s Morning in America. They might stomp at each other or butt their chests together in a totally non-homo-erotic way, but they don’t Dance.

Comment #24: paul  on  01/09  at  10:13 PM

Nothing against Travolta’s unbelievable dancing skills, but this wasn’t actually how people (at least prior to this movie) danced to disco, which was, from what I understand, much like they’ve danced to everything since, which is mostly formless bouncing and writhing.

It’s definitely true that people mostly just bounced and writhed formlessly to disco, but it is also true that—even prior to SNF—regular people (even my fucken grandparents) took hustle lessons.

Comment #25: PhysioProf  on  01/09  at  10:14 PM

I remember watching this movie when it aired on local TV some time in the early 80s. I immediately decided (at the ripe old age of four) that becoming king of the dance floor and having pretty women line up to get my attention was truly my destiny. My mum, in a rare instance of humouring me, actually called around to dance studios to see if disco lessons were offered. She got a lot of responses along the lines of : “Lady, we haven’t offered disco lessons for years now, and when we did, we didn’t sign up 4 year olds”. Good old mum figured Ukrainian dancing was an acceptable substitute and soon I was hopping, jumping and wearing ridiculous costumes and not meeting any pretty women in sparkly dresses; it was a bit disappointing but the physical conditioning of those classes served me well later when I took up breakdancing and later still when I studied kung fu.

Later on, when I read about the hoaxed article that inspired the movie, it made perfect sense to me. The plot and the attitudes of the central characters owe so much to the Mod scene that I’m surprised people familiar with said scene didn’t immediately catch on. Also, type Northern Soul dancing into youtube sometime and watch those people move, pretty impressive as well.

Comment #26: brassknucklediplomat  on  01/09  at  10:27 PM

  paul: Oh sigh, this is what I was talking about. Until the end of WWII, most men and women knew how to dance in the United States unless you were a member of the Protestant denominations that looked down upon dancing. Any man who didn’t know how to dance at least at a basic level would have been unusual. Nor would a man be viewed as unmanly for knowing how to dance. Nobody thought Gene Kelly wasn’t manly because he knew how to dance and his hey day was in the 1950s, less than twenty years before disco. In many social circles, knowing how to dance relatively well was expected for both genders. It was only in the time period where common dance knowledge collapsed, which basically coincided with V-E day and the early 1960s, that it became unmanly how to know how to dance in Europe, North America, and Oceania. It was only a very short time before disco arouse that it became uncool and unmanly for men to dance. We are talking less than a generation.

  This is why the disappearance of partner dancing is a really fascinating phenomenon. Dancing is now scene as something that is feminine. The assumption is that men don’t know how to dance and that men who like dancing and know to dance are feminine or gay. This assumption would make no sense before the late 1950s at the earliest. Dancing was so common that not knowing how to dance would be the strange thing.

Comment #27: Lee  on  01/09  at  10:28 PM

The last time I partner danced, I was told I was leading, about ten years or more ago.

Maybe so.

I grew up with both partner dancing and writhing in the ‘50s and ‘60s: partner dancing for slow music that was really just shuffling in a hug, writhing either alone or in a couple. (Remember learning the Mashed Potato at ten.)

Then writhing in gay discos in the ‘70s in NYC, long before taking ballroom dancing lessons during the brief SNF craze. (Yes, the gays were discoing first, long before straight white guys.)

Never really caught on to anything but the writhing, and I’m not up to the current writhing modes. But then again, I never was good at coordinated, repetitive motion.

Comment #28: judybrowni  on  01/09  at  10:40 PM

judybrowni, me too!  I went to an all-female college for a year and had to take a dance class where I was assigned The Man’s role when we did the waltz.  VERY hard to unlearn.

I agree with both Lee and Amanda.  For me formal dancing has been (1) fun and (2) hella patriarchical.

Comment #29: Unree  on  01/09  at  11:05 PM

This is why the disappearance of partner dancing is a really fascinating phenomenon. Dancing is now scene as something that is feminine.

Well, yeah. Dancing was manly back then because men were men and women were women. Now that everything is all crazy and up in the air and boys are dressing like girls and get off my lawn, mainstream dancing no longer reinforces gender roles the way it used to and so is unmanly. Straightforward enough.

Comment #30: junk science  on  01/09  at  11:06 PM

 
    Junk science: This isn’t really a convincing explanation. Common knowledge of dancing preceded most of the changes in gender relationships rather than coming after them or collapsing afterwards. Most of the collapse was complete at about the same time the Beatles became really popular.

Comment #31: Lee  on  01/09  at  11:20 PM

Common knowledge of dancing preceded most of the changes in gender relationships

That’s exactly what I said. People all knew how to dance back when dancing reinforced gender norms. I’m not clear where we’re missing each other.

Comment #32: junk science  on  01/09  at  11:30 PM

For the record, when I hear the word “disco,” I don’t think of John Travolta in “Saturday Night Fever.” I think of Robert Hays in “Airplane!” making fun of John Travolta in Saturday Night Fever: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLQWPgQMHhQ .

Comment #33: FearItself  on  01/09  at  11:37 PM

I think of Robert Hays in “Airplane!” making fun of John Travolta in Saturday Night Fever

Same here. I haven’t even seen SNF, but I’m very familiar with that scene.

Comment #34: junk science  on  01/09  at  11:40 PM

In reality, disco was just another step in a long 20th century evolution of dance music, and it ended for the same reason a lot of musical trends do: it morphed into other forms

I’m sorry, but that’s not really true.  I was 17 in 1977, when disco was at its height of popularity.  It was dead two years later for a very simple reason: it was massively overplayed, it had people like Rod Stewart doing cringe-inducing songs like Do Ya Think I’m Sexy?, it became a bandwagon thing, it got VERY cliched and tired very quickly. 

Yes, obviously, the anti-gay/racist backlash was a factor, but it was amazing how quickly the music fans I knew, people who liked everything from The Beatles to Miles Davis, who had loved songs like Stayin’ Alive and Disco Inferno and Love To Love You Baby and I Will Survive because they were flat-out great pop records, got sick of 4-to-the-bar kick drum beats, bombastic orchestrations, vapid lyrics and wacka-wacka wah-wah guitar licks. 

The beginning of the end was the ghastly Sgt. Pepper movie with The Bee Gees and Peter Frampton.  It was massively hyped but was savaged by critics and a huge bomb at the box office in 1978.  A case could be made that it killed Frampton’s career dead a mere two years after Frampton Comes Alive.  In retrospect, the pathetic Disco Demolition Night in July of 1979 could be seen as kicking a comatose horse, by 1980 disco was even more uncool than prog!  Sure, now, 30+ years later we can see disco as just another stream of music that people take ideas from, but at the time, when it was happening, it was astonishing that a style that seemed poised to rule the charts for years just suddenly died on the vine like it did.

Comment #35: Henry Holland  on  01/10  at  01:02 AM

Personally, I think he caught disco as those who liked the scene rather wanted it to be, not how it was.

The disco era I lived through did indeed have that kind of dancing, albeit probably inspired by SNF, rather than the inspiration thereof.

It was the same thing that The Godfather I and II did for the mob. Mario Puzo just made up shit, which made it into the movies, which real life mobsters started emulating.

Comment #36: KeithM  on  01/10  at  02:08 AM

Henry, I have to point out, both of my parents are a bit older than you (they were both 21 in 1977), and their recollections don’t really match up with your’s at all. As for the old “it was played OUT” argument, that’s wholly a position of the period of one’s youth. I adore disco and New Wave with the fervor of an evangelical convert, but I grew up in the 80’s, and hair metal deserved death by choking on a bag of dicks. Where was the collapse? Well, I was in middle school around ‘92, when every kid down here up and decided that shit was played OUT. Did we pick up hip-hop, electronica or hair metal’s purported killer (and sweet jesus on a bike, it did it’s job!) grunge? It didn’t matter, all that mattered was not one of us would be caught dead listening to Guns & Roses. And it was literally overnight, most of us had older siblings who looooved that crap, and didn’t like any of the new stuff at all. It’s all youth culture and waves of popularity, trying to make the case that disco was uniquely fail-y says a lot about the criticizer’s age and biases more than anything else.

Comment #37: redwards  on  01/10  at  02:16 AM

Henry Holland, you’re right, it was quickly commodified. 

But watching it through the eyes of someone who was underagedly in clubs in 1975, I remember the excitement and the sense of romance and drama and fun and showing off.  And I say that as someone who was also listening to Brian Eno on continuous loop at the time.

Comment #38: oldfeminist  on  01/10  at  02:23 AM

I definitely agree that Disco had a profound impact on the music industry.  And yes, it definitely paved the way for quite a lot of new musical forms, techno and dub and to a large degree hip-hop and rap.

Having been alive at the time and (an extremely small) part of the music industry I’d add that the biggest source of that impact was a massive frontal assault on the musician’s union.  Yeah, drum tracks and looping and all the rest are definitely a welcome addition to musical expression.  But they originated in a couple of cheap motherf**king disco producer/promoters who decided tape recorders didn’t ask to be paid, or take breaks, the way session musicians did.  Particularly drummers.

Now sure, everybody jokes about drummers (hey, in Spinal Tap not one but two of them explode!) and sure, if you had to pay live drummers (or other musicians) either for live session work or even for their loops, a heck of a lot of contemporary music just wouldn’t be.

But they originally did it because they wanted artistic versatility. Instead they just didn’t want to pay union scale.

A lot of good things came out of disco.  Disco, however, wasn’t one of them.

figleaf

p.s. Also?  The Bee-Gees were funky?  Funkier than a cottage-cheese sandwich maybe.  Seriously?  The Bee-Gees?  Yikes!  I’ve never seen the movie but for them to be funkier the dancing must have been choreographed by Bavarian yodelers!

p.p.s. Amanda, you’re right

Comment #39: figleaf  on  01/10  at  02:46 AM

Doh, p.p.s. You’re right about partner-style dancing: it ought to be fun but then you try it.

Comment #40: figleaf  on  01/10  at  02:58 AM

Yeah, drum tracks and looping and all the rest are definitely a welcome addition to musical expression.  But they originated in a couple of cheap motherf**king disco producer/promoters who decided tape recorders didn’t ask to be paid, or take breaks, the way session musicians did.  Particularly drummers.

Now sure, everybody jokes about drummers (hey, in Spinal Tap not one but two of them explode!) and sure, if you had to pay live drummers (or other musicians) either for live session work or even for their loops, a heck of a lot of contemporary music just wouldn’t be.

But they originally did it because they wanted artistic versatility. Instead they just didn’t want to pay union scale.
Comment #39: figleaf on 01/10 at 02:46 AM

Natural evolution of the click track.

Comment #41: oldfeminist  on  01/10  at  03:22 AM

@Henry Holland, I’m a bit younger but do remember how 80s cock rock sneered at disco for being (or seeming to be) gay, black, effeminate.  I think that backlash would have happened even without the Sgt. Pepper movie.
@figleaf, I felt the way you did about the ballroom dance floor back in freshman year when I had to play the man and lead.  Later I loved following, dancing with a partner who knew what he was doing.  It was great to be out there on the floor looking better than I deserved.  Subordinate too I guess.  Hmm, complicated.

Comment #42: Unree  on  01/10  at  03:40 AM

  @Unree, for me partner dancing has been a counter-patriarchal experience. Before I started to learn how to really dance, I was pretty contemptuous of disco and the related forms of music. Dancing opened me up to the possibilities of disco.

Comment #43: Lee  on  01/10  at  06:16 AM

I refuse to return to a patriarchal system where women are only “allowed” to dance if men ask them.

That’s not how I was brought up and that’s not how even my (seventeen years younger) sister’s religious friends do it.  You dance with who you want to dance with, you dance with who is dancing.  No male-dominance about it.

Comment #44: Crissa  on  01/10  at  07:03 AM

Helen, I don’t disagree that disco had a bunch of shitty dance crazes, usually with accompanying nails-on-chalkboard music. But that’s pretty consistent across genres

Amanda - that was my point.  Almost every genre, as far back as we have anyone taking note of the dance that went with music, had atleast some annoying formulaic dances. 
Disco had both freeform and formulaic, and people who were flamboyant in both, in real life before SNF came out.  The movie did spread the over the top stuff more widely than it probably would have gone otherwise.

Comment #45: helen w. h.  on  01/10  at  09:58 AM

    For an interesting book on popular music and the tension over the years between those for whom music is for listening and those who use it mostly for dancing, see Elijah Wald’s “How The Beatles Destroyed Rock N Roll: An Alternative History of American Popular Music.”

Comment #46: Russell60  on  01/10  at  11:47 AM

A case could be made that it killed Frampton’s career dead a mere two years after Frampton Comes Alive.

But that case would be crushed under the weight of Frampton’s inability to follow up that captivating live record with anything even close to being good. Which is to say: Frampton’s insipid pop records killed him, not disco.

Conversely, the rockers who dabbled in disco arrangements, however unholy that union seemed to their ‘base’, sold enough records to keep their contracts or get new ones. Sure they were ‘selling out.’ Feature, not bug.

Comment #47: benvolio  on  01/10  at  12:08 PM

I was turning 13 in 1978, so all of my friends and I on Lawngisland were forced to take disco-dance lessons so we could dance at our bar mitzvahs. I’ll admit, as a less-enlightened teen in those days, I was a disco-basher because it was ‘faggy.’ Though there are songs I can’t stand to this day (I love the night life, I will Survive), I appreciate the music much more these days and don’t care what ‘lifestyle’ it was attached to. As a writer named Maggie Thompson once said, “You know you’re getting older when you’re nostalgic for things you didn’t like the first time around.”

Comment #48: Neil C.  on  01/10  at  01:35 PM

My father’s generation, who were teens and in their twenties in the late depression and WWII, all danced. (Also true of his father’s generation.)

In my father’s generation, if a guy wanted to date, he’d better know how to dance, swing and fox trot.

May even have been a prerequisite to marry, and marrying was what most men had to do (early) in order to have an ongoing sexual partner.

One of my friends’ mother wasn’t considered particularly attractive but she’d been married when everyone else was, at least in part, because she was the best dancer in my father’s group of friends.

Comment #49: judybrowni  on  01/10  at  02:24 PM

According to the book “turn the beat around”, conservative columnist william safire had a nyt column in 1975 praising the hustle for bringing back partner dances.  Something about ending the anarchy of the sixties or something.


“turn the beat around” is a good book but it tries too hard to minimize effect of the “saturday night fever”. “saturday night fever” turned disco into an above ground phenomenon.  The soundtrack was quite good.  The bee gees were releasing disco songs well before SNF; they really were not inauthentic interlopers.  And, the movie itself is surprisingly good with a seventies bleakness that would be stripped away from any movie made in the 80s or beyond.

 

Comment #50: lemmy caution  on  01/10  at  02:33 PM

As for the old “it was played OUT” argument, that’s wholly a position of the period of one’s youth.  [snip] trying to make the case that disco was uniquely fail-y says a lot about the criticizer’s age and biases more than anything else.

So, I can’t possibly make the argument, as a 52 year old, that the white blues movement was played out ca. 1972? That prog was a goner by 1974 when ELP went in to hibernation > King Crimson broke up > Gabriel left Genesis? That glam was dead by 1974 as well? It’s called “history”, something of which when it comes to rock/pop music, I’m a big fan of.  You’re reading something in to what I wrote that simply isn’t there:  I’m not claiming that “disco was uniquely fail-y”, just that the rapidity with which it fell totally from popularity was pretty unusual, given it’s dominance.  It’s not a question of Bowie moving on to Young Americans/The classic Mott the Hoople lineup breaking up/Slade and a host of other British bands never cracking the US/The New York Dolls being more interesting in OD’ing than being a band = glam fading away, it was a situation that within months in 1979, disco wasn’t in the Top 10 anymore.

But watching it through the eyes of someone who was underagedly in clubs in 1975, I remember the excitement and the sense of romance and drama and fun and showing off.

Ah, I’m a prog head, *sniffy tone* we don’t dance, man, we sit on the floor and LISTEN /*sniffy tone*  I didn’t get in to dancing in clubs until Orbital/Orb/Chems/Prodigy became popular in the mid-90’s, when I was in my 30’s.  Very little romance or drama in that scene, at least as I experienced it, it was all about the act on stage, more like a typical rock concert (which I probably why I connected with it as opposed to more DJ based music). 

@Henry Holland, I’m a bit younger but do remember how 80s cock rock sneered at disco for being (or seeming to be) gay, black, effeminate.

If you include Ratt, Poison, The Crue etc. as “cock rock”, oh the irony of men dressed like this

http://www.dabelly.com/images/Issue 096/Poison/poison_80sbighair.jpg

for criticizing anyone for looking or being gay or effeminate is hilarious.

But that case would be crushed under the weight of Frampton’s inability to follow up that captivating live record with anything even close to being good. Which is to say: Frampton’s insipid pop records killed him, not disco.

Oh shit, I forgot I’m In You!  Um, thanks for the memory?

Sure they were ‘selling out.’ Feature, not bug.

But in late 70’s rock, selling out was about the worst thing you could do!  Selling out for a hit, selling out your sound to make it more palatable to the masses (see: Genesis’ Follow You, Follow Me), selling out your image (ELP = Love Beach) etc.  Rod Stewart was the brash, tough “Scottish” rocker, he never recovered from Do You Think I’m Sexy?  etc.

Comment #51: Henry Holland  on  01/10  at  04:16 PM

I can’t get outraged about the fact it is a hoax. Every trend Hollywood ever makes a movie about is a hoax in that sense. That’s what Hollywood does—take trends and homogenize them into generic story tropes.

My problem with Saturday Night Fever is I can’t think of a movie I’ve ever seen that has worse gender politics. The hero is a rapist, as are is friends, and his victim eventually sees the “good” in him and lets him back into her life; he is sexually selfish, telling his girlfriend to blow him and saying that this is satisfactory to her rather than springing for a condom; he treats a woman who loves him like total dirt while idealizing his true love in classic Nice Guy fashion without any concern for her interests; and when he is on the dance floor, he, the Real Man, is all that matters and all that anyone should focus on; females can be nothing more than dance partners or enraptured onlookers.

Seriously, this is gender politics at its worst, and it was made AFTER the second wave feminist revolution!

Comment #52: Dilan Esper  on  01/10  at  06:09 PM

I’ll just leave this here…

Comment #53: jamie d  on  01/10  at  07:05 PM

In my father’s generation, if a guy wanted to date, he’d better know how to dance, swing and fox trot.

Similarly, in the 70s, knowing how to disco dance greatly improved a guy’s chance of getting laid. It wasn’t enough for a guy to have a shaggy haircut, a brushy mustache, and a panoramic Qiana shirt with pearl snaps—you had to have a nice ass and show that you knew how to use it.

Memory says that there were more dances than, say, the hustle and the bus stop. But not as many as in the 60s, which had a dance-song every week, from the twist to the frug to the Watusi to the Mashed Potato, to the Swim, to the Tighten Up ad infinitum. Young women would go home from school to watch the latest dances on American Bandstand—and later Soul Train.

Comment #54: Hector B.  on  01/10  at  07:53 PM

But in late 70’s rock, selling out was about the worst thing you could do!  Selling out for a hit, selling out your sound to make it more palatable to the masses (see: Genesis’ Follow You, Follow Me), selling out your image (ELP = Love Beach) etc.  Rod Stewart was the brash, tough “Scottish” rocker, he never recovered from Do You Think I’m Sexy?  etc.

Oh sure. The Stones never recovered from this, either:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giOhzebqmDE

Comment #55: Hector B.  on  01/10  at  08:51 PM

For those of us who were living in shitty little cow towns of 5,000 or less at the time, SNF was all we knew of NYC, of Disco, etc.  When you have one AM radio station that broadcasts from 6am to 9pm and plays about 2/3 country/western ... you don’t know from this unless it goes on your TV.

Comment #56: Ms Kate  on  01/10  at  10:26 PM

Another reason Gen-X rejected Disco was a fundamental shift in values from one that pushed a one night stand fits all culture to a much more cautious one, as AIDS too to the scene.

Comment #57: Ms Kate  on  01/10  at  10:29 PM

  But watching it through the eyes of someone who was underagedly in clubs in 1975, I remember the excitement and the sense of romance and drama and fun and showing off.

Ah, I’m a prog head, *sniffy tone* we don’t dance, man, we sit on the floor and LISTEN /*sniffy tone*  I didn’t get in to dancing in clubs until Orbital/Orb/Chems/Prodigy became popular in the mid-90’s, when I was in my 30’s.  Very little romance or drama in that scene, at least as I experienced it, it was all about the act on stage, more like a typical rock concert (which I probably why I connected with it as opposed to more DJ based music).

You snipped the part where I described listening to Eno on endless loop.  And there is romance and drama in music well played, by someone technically skilled.  The excitement comes from within.  Even if you stand motionless as Pete Entwistle.

And if you see no romantic element to Yes or Genesis I’m not sure what you were listening to.  I’m not talking about that soppy Styx shit either.  There really are people who like both the trancey hard-edged stuff and the emotionally freighted stuff. 

Emotion doesn’t just mean sadness or love and romance isn’t just sucking face.

Comment #58: oldfeminist  on  01/10  at  11:54 PM

A post partly about how disco was just one stop in the long and endless train of international pop music, and nobody mentions Goldfrapp’s neo-disco techno?  I am disappoint.

Comment #59: Heron  on  01/10  at  11:55 PM

Even if you stand motionless as Pete Entwistle.

Do the dead man a favor and at least get his name right.  It was John, not Pete.

And if you see no romantic element to Yes or Genesis I’m not sure what you were listening to.

Huh? Please read what I wrote again, I clearly stated what scene I was referring to, I was talking about techno like Orbital, the Chemical Brothers, all that.  And if you can find romance in Chime or Block Rockin’ Beats or Firestarter, then good for you.

There really are people who like both the trancey hard-edged stuff and the emotionally freighted stuff.

You’re preaching to the choir, I’ve got everything from Astral Projection to operas by Zemlinsky sitting on my CD shelves.

Emotion doesn’t just mean sadness or love and romance isn’t just sucking face.

*rolls eyes* Duh.

 

Comment #60: Henry Holland  on  01/11  at  02:44 AM

  And if you see no romantic element to Yes or Genesis I’m not sure what you were listening to.

Huh? Please read what I wrote again, I clearly stated what scene I was referring to, I was talking about techno like Orbital, the Chemical Brothers, all that.  And if you can find romance in Chime or Block Rockin’ Beats or Firestarter, then good for you.

Actually I wrote “And there is romance and drama in music well played, by someone technically skilled.  The excitement comes from within,” which should qualify as finding romance in any music.  But again you snipped that out for some reason.

This was what I thought we were discussing:  You said you were a prog head and didn’t get into dancing until Orbital/Chemical brothers. 

I was addressing the time from before that (Yes ELP Genesis Crimson) and saying as another prog head (gratuitous Eno reference) that there was romance and drama in prog music.

I don’t know why you think I was talking about techno with that. Maybe you thought that since I mentioned going to clubs and dancing that that was all I was talking about.  Which makes it odd that you deliberately snipped my gratuitous Eno reference since it was meant to indicate that clubs and dancing wasn’t all I was talking about.

But whatever.

(About the Pete/John, my sister had a friend Pete Entwisle and I sometimes get them verbally confused.  Not sure if you will make you feel better that I still have my LP of Whistle Rhymes.  Or that we both left out the second T in Entwistle.)

Comment #61: oldfeminist  on  01/11  at  10:31 AM

@46 - I’m a little late here, but I don’t see why there should be any tension between music for listening and music for dancing. I suppose it is difficult to dance to math rock or prog rock or free jazz or etc., but why should dance music not be for listening as well?

Comment #62: Jimmy  on  01/11  at  11:46 AM

Rod Stewart was the brash, tough “Scottish” rocker, he never recovered from Do You Think I’m Sexy?

Yeah, he ‘never recovered’ all the way to the bank. And is still recording and selling.

Comment #63: benvolio  on  01/11  at  03:05 PM
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