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Next entry: Lack of posting Previous entry: Why are Republicans acting like the election was sprung on them by surprise?

The radical anti-insurance plan the right has concocted

I was on NPR's "On Point" this morning, debating a lying-through-her-teeth anti-choicer (seriously, she claimed as often as she could that  post-ejaculation contraception was "abortion", an evidence-free claim whose only purpose it to muddy the waters) named Anna Franzonello, and needless to say, it was interesting. You can listen to it here; I was on for about twenty minutes. What was interesting was watching the evolution of the demands based in facetious claims of "religious liberty". Since Obama has made it so that Catholic hospitals and univerisities don't actually have to cover their employees' birth control (though they do get to enjoy the cost savings as if they did!), the argument that forcing employers to directly cover it is a violation of religious liberty is off the table. So instead, the argument has now evolved into claiming that your employer has a right to step in and prevent you from dealing directly with your insurance company to get birth control coverage. That right is justified by the fact that the employer's money was used as part of your benefits package to pay for your insurance.

I dealt with this directly, arguing that your employer doesn't own you. That's what the argument about Taco Bell owners refusing to include contraception in their health care plans is about, whether or not an employer maintains the right to control your compensation package after you earned it. I see no difference in an employer telling you that a health care package you earned can't be used for birth control because of his moral beliefs than an employer telling you that you can't buy condoms with your own money because of his moral beliefs. Once they sign the check, either to you directly or to a service provider that processes your benefits, they should not be allowed to control the money as an attempt to control you.

But when I hung up, I realized that what she was claiming was even more radical that that. She said specifically that even with the Obama compromise, it's a problem, because while Catholic universities and hospitals may not pay directly for your contraception coverage (it comes out of the insurance company's profits, in sum), because they give any money at all to the insurance company, they should have complete veto power over what it covers. 

If you step back and think about that, it's a far more radical assertion than even the Stupak amendment, which argued that any person in the entire health care system should, because a dollar that was once in their pocket is floating around in the system, have veto power over your abortion being covered. In this case, they're saying that anyone in the system anywhere should be able to veto any coverage they claim offends their morals. This is about more than the Taco Bell owner functionally fining their own employees for fucking. Franzonello was claiming that the Taco Bell owner, having paid an insurance company, should have veto power over not just his health care plan, but over any money the insurance company spends, since his money is in there, rubbing shoulders with those less pure dollars. That means that, as far as Franzonello was concerned, not only should the Taco Bell owner be able to veto contraception coverage for his direct employees, but for every single employee of every other company that contracts with the same insurance company. So the Taco Bell owner can force you, the H&R Block employee, to pay for your own contraception because you both are insured through Blue Cross/Blue Shield, and the Taco Bell employee doesn't want a dollar that was once in his pocket to ever circulate through the system and go towards your contraception, or else Jesus will cry.

And this isn't just about contraception, either. She made a broad-based argument that anyone should be able to veto anyone's coverage on any moral grounds. She claimed this would "only" affect contraception, but we know in the past that people have tried to block, on "moral" grounds, coverage for STD treatments and maternal care for single women. Since paying a single dollar into the system would give you ultimate veto power, in her estimation, it really could be anything. Anti-vaccination person buys insurance for his employees from your insurer? Good-bye vaccination coverage for everyone in the entire system. 

That's how seriously they hate women. They're basically willing to burn the entire health care system to the ground rather than let some woman somewhere have sex without paying a penalty for it. Damn. 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 05:30 PM • (72) Comments

If all this hubbub over insurance-covering-women’s-health-care does anything positive, I’m thinking it’s bound to usher in Single Payer sooner than we might have thought when ACA was passed. Because this is all bullshit, and women (voters) aren’t stupid.

Comment #1: benvolio  on  02/21  at  06:03 PM

Conveniently, the policy of the Church does not bend to the will of its individual donors.

Comment #2: ganews_  on  02/21  at  06:09 PM

Minor good news that at least one of the wingnut “health” arguments is losing traction.

The proposed Virginia law that would mandate vaginal ultrasound probe pre abortion resulted in a furor, that’s having a salutary effect.

Yesterdays’ silent protest of over a thousand women who stared down their representatives walking through the gauntlet to the State House coincided with the vote being put off that day.

But the Virginia House has also put off ultrasound bill again today:
http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/02/21/10468895-virginia-house-puts-off-ultrasound-bill-again

The move came as a public outcry to bills restricting abortion has prompted some lawmakers to hint they may soften the ultrasound bills.

Two legislators—one a conservative Republican—speaking today on the condition of anonymity said one idea officials have discussed is making the ultrasound legislation optional rather than mandatory.

Other options are to pass the bills by or park them in committee. Either of those moves could effectively shelve the legislation for the year.

Over a thousand women (and men) looked their Republican representatives in the eye yesterday, and the Republicans blinked.
http://hamptonroads.com/2012/02/va-vote-abortion-ultrasound-bill-pushed-back-day

Comment #3: judybrowni  on  02/21  at  06:10 PM

But you see, only the conscience of right wingnut dollars count.

Comment #4: judybrowni  on  02/21  at  06:11 PM

I once gave some money to a Catholic charity. That must mean I can demand that they get rid of the pope, enfranchise women, make birth control and abortion sacraments, and dissolve the Vatican state and sell off their assets to feed the poor.

Comment #5: emjaybee  on  02/21  at  06:23 PM

Question I’ve always wanted to ask the “freedom of religion” concern trolls: so, does that mean that if your boss is a Jehovah’s Witness they can bar you from getting a transfusion if you’re in a car wreck?

Comment #6: DataSnake  on  02/21  at  06:29 PM

I was thinking about this article about Ginsburg’s involvement with abortion litigation:

http://www.salon.com/2012/02/13/ruth_bader_ginsburgs_alternative_abortion_history/

History would have been quite different if the first abortion cases were focused on protecting a woman’s right to KEEP the child.

Likewise, this “controversy” is 100% dependent on the coincidence of how it came up.  I think we can all guess how the Republican nutters would be reacting if this issue was introduced through Islam.  Hell, I think progressives should be scouring the nation for an instance of an Islamic employer making demands on their employees based on their religion.

Just like Obama’s move forced the nutters to come out and say they were just against contraception, a good Muslim example will clarify the debate even further: this is about Christians demanding that this country operate according to their religion.  That’s it.  Everything else is obfuscation.

Comment #7: doubtthat  on  02/21  at  06:33 PM

I’d like to see some Witnesses turn this around into blocking funding for blood transfusions. I can see them hand-waving off other beliefs like the anti-vaxx stuff as not really being ‘moral’ standpoints, and thus not being ‘protected’, but I’d love to see them try to deal with a decidedly Christian veto under this mindset.

Comment #8: Jayn Newell  on  02/21  at  06:37 PM

Followup question for the caller who went on about “prohibit the free exercise thereof”: so if I claim to follow Huitzilopochtli, would that give me the right to kill and eat my neighbors?

Comment #9: DataSnake  on  02/21  at  06:40 PM

Comment #6: DataSnake

Question I’ve always wanted to ask the “freedom of religion” concern trolls: so, does that mean that if your boss is a Jehovah’s Witness they can bar you from getting a transfusion if you’re in a car wreck?

Or Islamic employers demanding that no one spend their pay-check on alcohol, or how about Jewish employers demanding that I snip the tip of my cock to join their business?

Anyone who considers this for more than .00001sec will realize how dangerous it is to any type of free, secular society.  That’s why the only people pushing it want to spread a specific brand of Christianity.

Comment #10: doubtthat  on  02/21  at  06:41 PM

Interesting, but Little Green Footballs has pointed out, on the 40th anniversary of Loretta Lynn’s The Pill, that the GOP is far to the right of a Christian mom from Eastern Kentucky in 1972.

That’s some serious backward there. 

That’s also freaking out the real mainsteam - they need to keep the santorum fountain running on this, and we all win!

Comment #11: Ms Kate  on  02/21  at  06:49 PM

The only good that has come out of all of this recently is removing the masks of certain groups and exposing their true faces - patriarchal, misogynistic, anti-woman, anti-intellegence beasts faking morality under an umbrella of “religion”.

They are perverting the First Amendment (establishment/free exercise) with willful blinders on.  If any non-Christian relgion (you know exactly which one I refer to) wanted to just freely exercise their practices, you would see the same religious people scream/holler about how/why that CANNOT happen in America.  As pointed out above and by commenters above me, if other restrictions were to be placed on *them* and their insurance, they’d flip out. 

There’s no thought, no coherence, no ANYTHING about their stance aside from pro-Jesus, anti-woman, anti-SexForEnjoyment.  It’s Idiots-on-Mass-Hysteria and they are in overdrive. 

That said, I do love that the modern GOP is alienating voters group by group, state by state.

((Side note:  let us hope that the VA bill on hold never sees the light of day again))

Comment #12: avoidswork  on  02/21  at  07:04 PM

#6, technically yes.  But since “religious freedom” really means “freedom for fundamentalist Christians and other religious ‘allies’, until we throw those ‘allies’ under the bus”, I think no.

Comment #13: Jake  on  02/21  at  07:05 PM

“post-ejaculation contraception”

Does that include the traditional coca-cola douche? The phosphoric acid in Coke is a very good spermicide and is pH balanced with the vagina, but please use Diet Coke as sugar can cause yeast infections.

Still, it’s not very effective as contraception. At times of peak fertility, the sperm cells can merge with the protective mucus of the cervix within seconds. But it does seem that these folks want to go back the coke douche era.

Why do they think this is going to win them anything? Someone mentioned this song in the previous thread. Who knew it would still be so relevant today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DcdONaKSQM

Comment #14: Bacopa  on  02/21  at  07:11 PM

Loretta Lynn’s The Pill was banned from a number of country radio stations in 1972:

The song’s frank discussion of birth control, something that was considered risqué subject matter at the time, especially in country music, led to a number of country radio stations refusing to play it. The song received much publicity and airplay on the stations that would air it but its ban from a number of radio stations caused the record to stall at number five on the charts at a time when a Loretta Lynn record was almost guaranteed to be a top three hit, often a number one record. Nevertheless it earned her more press and attention outside the country market than anything she had ever recorded before and ultimately became her highest-charting pop single, peaking at #70 on the Hot 100.

Recorded in 1972 and held back by her label, the song was finally released in mid-1975, the song was Lynn’s first single that year she released as a solo artist, after having a major duet hit with Conway Twitty earlier that year. The single was released on her 1975, Back to Country and was the only single released from the album.
[edit]Influence of song

In an interview for Playgirl Magazine, Lynn recounted how she had been congratulated after the song’s success by a number of rural physicians, telling her how “The Pill” had done more to highlight the availability of birth control in isolated, rural areas, than all the literature they’d released.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pill_(song)

Comment #15: judybrowni  on  02/21  at  07:38 PM

Not sure how the GOP thinks that being anti-women-and-children is a winning strategy.  As a liberal, I’m enjoying watching the GOP clown car speed off the cliff, but as a citizen, I’m dismayed that one of our two main political parties is so dysfunctional.  I think that left and right (and everything in-between) is necessary for a healthy democracy, but that’s not happening here.

No one *important* cared about lack of health care access for us peons, but now that it might impact THEM, cue the outrage.  This is pushing us even faster towards single-payer.

Comment #16: NobleExperiments  on  02/21  at  07:48 PM

What the everlasting FUCK?! *sigh* I shouldn’t be surprised by this point, really, but I’m still flabbergasted at the number of people who seem to believe that “democracy” and “freedom of religion” actually translate to “I get to force everyone to live by the rules I set for them.” It’s quite disheartening.

Comment #17: verity khat  on  02/21  at  07:57 PM

or how about Jewish employers demanding that I snip the tip of my cock to join their business?

Total side point but it’s the foreskin, your shaft remains intact and if you’re American the odds of you already being circumcised are very high. 

This whole argument moves in a strange direction as it hinges on the idea that your employer has the right to design health insurance for their employees which on the surface sounds normal, they usually pick a health plan from dozens of health plans but this takes it a step further that they wish to be able to design and designate health treatments.  One company wants to override medical opinions for their moral stance.  It’s a distressing thought that if they essentially can rule our medical procedures we’re in trouble as a society, we’re one step back towards enslavement.

I’m not sure this is on the road to single-payer healthcare though, insurance companies were in a two-way struggle between the left and right.  They traditionally were on the right as corporations looking to turn a profit on covering as little as possible.  When the ACA was enacted they had joined the left as they were going to get a piece of a much bigger pie and had abandoned the right (including most of their donations), now the right has no reason to protect them and the pressure for single-payer healthcare with direct government administration leaves insurance companies out in the cold.  In other words they don’t want either side to win and will spend their profits accordingly to try and keep the status quo so that they can continue to profit (albeit at a reduced level) rather than be legislated out of existence or have to cave into every employer demand by crafting specifically designed insurances or create an ala carte system that will inevitably cost a great deal more to manage and maintain.  This is in particular why they only offer a handful of plans at different economic points.  They don’t want to get involved in what is or isn’t covered, forced to fight in court to validate their stance and risk losing.  It’s a waste of their profits.

Comment #18: Xeranar  on  02/21  at  08:00 PM

Ron Paul said something similar recently. In his book, Freedom Under Siege, he wrote that insurance companies should have the “freedom” not to cover AIDS treatments and research, because AIDS patients are “victims of their own lifestyle.” Then, in January of this year, Paul went on Fox News to defend his points. There, he went a step farther, saying that it’s unfair for people to pay for insurance that covers anything immoral - such as STDs, alcohol-related health problems, etc. He even went so far as to call it socialism, even though he was talking about private insurance companies and policy holders. I said to my boyfriend, “Do Republicans not believe in health insurance now?” And it seems like they don’t. Or maybe they just want health insurance to cover only the “good people” - you know, the ones who don’t have sex, drink, eat food, etc., etc…

Comment #19: shnaa  on  02/21  at  08:06 PM

That’s what the argument about Taco Bell owners refusing to include contraception in their health care plans is about, whether or not an employer maintains the right to control your compensation package after you earned it.

But aren’t they serving morning-after burritos?

Comment #20: Linnaeus  on  02/21  at  08:20 PM

Let’s leave aside for the moment the fact that the Catholic Church has complied with contraception mandates in the majority of states without whining for decades.

As I’ve posted before, I was raised Catholic and have dozens of aunts and uncles who were not only religious (took orders) but the heads of Orders/monasteries/convents/etc.  Just yesterday I tried poring through great great aunt Sister Mary Blase’s letters from when she was the Mother Superior in New Orleans.  Wild stuff.  A lot of concern b/c my great great grandfather died without receiving last rites, but hoping since he was so good while healthy that God would have Mercy.

I don’t think they would recognize the “principle” the USCCB claims to be fighting for.  We’re tested and tempted to sin, and we prove our love of God by being good.  If there’s no opportunity for sin, then…well, you don’t get any extra Grace for being good.

They’d never want the government to legislate morality.  Why would they care if insurance companies covered contraception or abortion?  A good Catholic isn’t going to sin!  And if s/he does, that’s on her/him.  Confession or absolution are possibilities, as is damnation.

So this isn’t just weirdness or a disconnect with modern Americans or Vatican II vs. it’s haters.  This is complete weirdness and a change from normal Church/State interactions.

Now, back to the fact they’ve complied with this law for decades without whining…why now?  Why are they attacking the black President of the US?

I know Francis George thinks it will make him look like a moral man attacking the POTUS over abortion.  This is contraception, but same diff.  It’s to make him look better and more moral and to pretend he didn’t allow children to be raped b/c he didn’t want to follow the rules set down by the Conference.  To pretend he didn’t try to get a convicted pedophile released.  To pretend he’s more moral than anyone else and deserves to have people grovelling at his feet with respect.

Every day I’m glad I’m out and that my children, especially my daughters, are not subjected to this shit.

Comment #21: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  02/21  at  08:22 PM

This is in particular why they only offer a handful of plans at different economic points.  They don’t want to get involved in what is or isn’t covered, forced to fight in court to validate their stance and risk losing.  It’s a waste of their profits.

Insurance companies like standard terms. Standard terms and big risk pools means that they can do less actuarial work. Pre-ACA, they could deal with such things more ruthlessly by imposing annual or lifetime caps or just rescinding coverage; post-ACA, they’ll need to do things differently.

The emerging meme is that health insurance is some kind of paternalistic gift to employees from Daddy Boss, and Daddy Boss doesn’t want to pay for anything that deals with icky ladyparts and sexytime. Well, fuck that. Group health coverage has tax advantages compared to cash wages, but it’s still part of getting paid for doing your job.

Comment #22: pseudonymous in nc  on  02/21  at  08:24 PM

Republicans have never been in favor of health insurance; they’ve been in favor of health insurance company profits.

When I was growing well over a half century ago and more Blue Cross was a non-profit, and when I look back on the sheer number of childhood illness, ulcer surgery for my father, broken arms, legs and so on and so forth, I marvel because none of it bankrupted the family. Nor did the totality.

After the birth of each of her three children, my mother stayed in hospital with the baby for ten days. Which was standard back for new mothers and babies, so any health complications of mother and child that might develop after the birth could be caught and dealt with.

That’s right, when health insurance was non-profit, mandatory ten day hospital stays were normal for mother and babies.

The tide turned to private health insurance when Republicans rose to power: starting when Nixon took up the cause for “managed care” HMOs. Not a priority of his, until it was explained to him that “managed care” would result in less care for patients, and more profit for health insurance firms. “Less care, more profit.”

Eventually, the non-profits were also forced to “privatize” (the definition of which I believe is “Some of my Republican donor/friends/relatives need to make money.”)

 

Comment #23: judybrowni  on  02/21  at  08:30 PM

Non-profit insurance companies: ten day hospital stay after birth for new mothers and babies.

Versus for-profit insurance companies: For over ten years, bills were unsuccessfully introduced in Congress for mandatory coverage of 48-hour hospital stays after a mastectomy.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/mastectomy.asp

Comment #24: judybrowni  on  02/21  at  08:46 PM

That’s how seriously they hate women. They’re basically willing to burn the entire health care system to the ground rather than let some woman somewhere have sex without paying a penalty for it. Damn.

Well, that’s pretty much what they did with the economy. Hate unions? Export all the jobs.

Comment #25: TiaRachel  on  02/21  at  08:56 PM

“That’s how seriously they hate women. They’re basically willing to burn the entire health care system to the ground rather than let some woman somewhere have sex without paying a penalty for it.”

“We had to destroy the village in order to save it.”

Comment #26: Smartpatrol  on  02/21  at  09:15 PM

I don’t think they’re actually willing to burn the health care system to the ground, any more than they were actually willing to throw that country into default on it debt. The one thing wingnut political operatives know, or think they know, is that democrats will rescue them from the consequences of their actions. And will do so in such a way that the wingnuts get to excoriate them even more.

Comment #27: paul  on  02/21  at  10:18 PM

They’re basically willing to burn the entire health care system to the ground rather than let some woman somewhere have sex without paying a penalty for it.

Hell, that’s too limited. They’re willing to burn down the health care system rather than tell any insurance company what to do.

Seriously. Some libertarian asshole (a redundancy, I know) I was debating on another board actually said, in all seriousness, “Why on earth should the government be able to tell a private insurance company what it must cover?” When did health insurance companies become so sacrosanct?

Comment #28: Bitter Scribe  on  02/21  at  11:09 PM

Fortunately, the Republican Party® has finally worked out a deal with the Obama Administration to solve the nation’s health coverage problems.

Starting on April 16, all citizens with a net worth of less than $1million will report to their nearest disintegration chamber for atom-reassignment.  All remaining citizens will report to Halliburton’s new re-education camps, where they will be made to understand that healthcare is just too expensive for everyone except the 1%, and where Work Makes You Free!...

Comment #29: MikeEss  on  02/21  at  11:27 PM

Shnaa @ 19: There is a strain of Republicanism that truly doesn’t believe in insurance.  That’s the logical conclusion of their petulant “I shouldn’t have to pay for anything that’s not mine” approach to life.  (They, of course, have no clue how much of “their” stuff other people have had to pay for.)

It reminds me that another camp of those who are flogging the contraception issue is people who actually don’t care about the contraception issue and just want to label Obama as an interventionist, big-government liberal.  (I saw this on Digby a few days ago.  I suck at the Internet, but I think these are two relevant links (the second is by David Atkins):
http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2012/02/principles-and-priorities-accepting.html
http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2012/02/republican-upside-of-birth-control.html)

Comment #30: ScottInOH  on  02/22  at  12:00 AM

Under her proposal, does any business owner have complete veto power over what the insurance company does, or only christians? If I’m a buddhist employer, can I prevent my business’ insurance company from selling healthcare to christians and muslims?

Comment #31: Baruk  on  02/22  at  12:28 AM

Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes @21

Francis George (head of the Chicago diocese) will never live down his recent claim that people advocating for LGBT rights are just like the KKK.  A little lying from the pulpit about refusing to allow Catholic institutions to provide health benefits that they already are providing right now?  That’s nothing to a man of his moral stature.

Comment #32: Nutella  on  02/22  at  12:33 AM

I’m sorry, but *fuck* this shit.

Catholic hospitals and universities *do not* have to buy health insurance for their employees, once the exchanges are in place. Of course, it’ll be a lot more costly to attract employees - I’m sure individual policies are more expensive, and no one wants to have to shop through an exchange if they can just get it from an employer,  but, hey, this is about a moral principle that they should be willing to *die* for.

So, not only do they not have to pay for stuff that offends them, they don’t have to be involved *at all*. They *choose* to get involved, because it’s a lot easier, and then they’re whining that the big, bad government is making the easy path morally questionable.

And again, all I can say, is *fuck* that shit.

Comment #33: LongHairedWeirdo  on  02/22  at  05:26 AM

I’d like to see some Witnesses turn this around into blocking funding for blood transfusions. I can see them hand-waving off other beliefs like the anti-vaxx stuff as not really being ‘moral’ standpoints, and thus not being ‘protected’, but I’d love to see them try to deal with a decidedly Christian veto under this mindset.

they did make an argument like that on… somewhere… Up with Chris Hayes, maybe. The counter was “well, such a hospital doesn’t exist, so you can’t use that analogy”. And no one responded to that :-(

Comment #34: jadehawk  on  02/22  at  06:50 AM

Catholic hospitals need to go away.  Patient rights should trump EVERYTHING else.

Just like how Catholic Charities stopped helping foster kids because they wouldn’t let gay people adopt them, if a Catholic hospital is unwilling to provide health care, they need to get out of the business.  That means if they won’t offer the option of EC to a rape victim, then they should not accept trauma patients.

I’m so pissed off.  Hyde needs to go.  Conscience clauses need to go.  Doctors should not be legally protected from learning any procedure deemed medically necessary or be legally allowed to opt out of learning how to perform a procedure 1/3 of American women undergo.

Women’s health care is health care period.  It’s long past time when patient rights—and patient religious liberty—is primary.

Comment #35: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  02/22  at  08:58 AM

“well, such a hospital doesn’t exist, so you can’t use that analogy”

Which is why I want someone to actually do it.

Comment #36: Jayn Newell  on  02/22  at  09:07 AM

This isn’t all that different from the typical Republican anti-tax argument that it’s “wrong” for my tax money to be used to pay for something that doesn’t directly help me or that I disagree with; an argument that pretty much invalidates all government spending of any kind.  The concept that a sovereign individual has the power to enter into an agreement with other sovereign individuals that restricts what they can do and how definitive their individual opinions are in exchange for mutual defense, common resources, and communally beneficial labor -although at the heart of Enlightenment political philosophy- is simply anathema to the Bircher and neo-con crowd.  Yet another example of the prevalence of radical Randian “Me, Me, Me”-ism in the USian Right.

Comment #37: Heron  on  02/22  at  09:30 AM

Catholic hospitals need to go away.

This. But if we can’t have that, then at the very minimum, they must never, ever be allowed to take over non-Catholic hospitals.

Comment #38: Steve LaBonne  on  02/22  at  10:11 AM

As a liberal, I’m enjoying watching the GOP clown car speed off the cliff, but as a citizen, I’m dismayed that one of our two main political parties is so dysfunctional.

It’s more than dismaying, it’s really fucking dangerous. It’s a bomb waiting to go off and blow up what’s left of our democracy once and for all.

Comment #39: Steve LaBonne  on  02/22  at  10:13 AM

This is so infuriating. And this This bill requires that the gestational age is verified and confirmed through an ultrasound,” she said. “Without an ultrasound, you’re just guessing. from the Virginia forced ultrasound bill is just bullshit. When I became pregnant and went to my first midwife appointment, she believed me when I told her the date of my last period and calculated the length of my pregnancy with that. She didn’t required a vaginal ultrasound to confirm anything.

There will be some women with irregular cycles who won’t know the date exactly, and the doctor may need to do and ultrasound for them, but the majority of women know when their last period was. They should be trusted and treated based on that.

Comment #40: Livi  on  02/22  at  10:15 AM

@ 40

ive been fairly regular and still got ultrasounds with my two abortions (one was in DC, transvaginal, IIRC in 2003 and one in texas, jelly on the belly, 2009).  they were both well within the first trimester.  i was told they were to determine if it was a singleton or multiple pregnancy and anything else that might complicate the abortion.  it was purely diagnostic and there was no “listen to the heartbeat/look at your baybeh!!” crap.

Comment #41: gardenom  on  02/22  at  10:58 AM

Republicans and Catholic bishops to Americans:  Just do us all a fervor and die already. 

After all, dead women can’t have abortions, so all is well…

Comment #42: MikeEss  on  02/22  at  10:59 AM

Honestly, I welcome the increasing absurdity of this debate. First, it signals that the culture war is over, and we won. Yes, this will be a rough few years, but when you listen to arguments like that of the woman Amanda debated, it’s glaringly obvious that they’ve got nothing. People under 50 who actually believe this tripe are an increasingly tiny slice of the electorate; people who know it’s nonsense but go with it because they hate women and freedom that much are a larger, but still small, slice. They get disproportionate media coverage because our reptilian corporate masters desperately need their votes to hang onto the hierarchy, but they’re very small in actual numbers, and as the pre-Civil Rights people die off, they get smaller. Secondly, the giant fuss they’re making over birth control points out to even the most inattentive observer what assholes they are. They’ve got to the point in the feedback loop where they’re accelerating their own decline. I welcome the chance to throw them an anvil.

Comment #43: felagund  on  02/22  at  11:02 AM

do they realize that at the end of the day what they’re really agitating for is anarchy? and do they actually think they’re the biggest dogs on the block? because, boy howdy, they certainly aren’t the smartest. and those of us who’ve learned from evolution know how that ends…

Comment #44: shade  on  02/22  at  11:38 AM

Franzonollo has also conveniently forgotten that employees also contribute money from their paychecks to their health insurance plans. So, those employees should also have a say in what the plan covers.

Comment #45: epilimnion  on  02/22  at  11:40 AM

I can’t say I’m surprised; I’ve known a number of right-wingers who think they should be able to pick and choose where their tax dollars go, too. And I’m not talking about voting in people who will spend their tax dollars the way they’d like. They literally want to be able to hand the IRS a document every year that spells out how many dollars go where.

Comment #46: ttintagel  on  02/22  at  12:28 PM

@ Bitter Scribe

“Why on earth should the government be able to tell a private insurance company what it must cover?”

Well gee, why on earth should the government bother at all to get involved in making sure companies can’t cheat the everloving fuck out of their customers? I mean, we had so much less government regulation on businesses once upon a time and it was awesome! People could sell cough drops that supposedly made people live longer when in reality there could be rat poop in there for all we knew and it was great! /sarcasm

I know that this is just an extension of “get big government out of business” and “the invisible hand” of the market, but really, the mind boggles at just how much denial privileged people can live in. If we don’t regulate businesses at least a little, the businesses WILL lie and cheat and steal, to the detriment of many, and the gain of very few.

Saying the government can’t tell health insurance providers to do what they claim to do (you know, provide health insurance) is like saying that Bath and Body Works can start selling their perfume as “health drinks” with absolutely no legal recourse. And I can’t wrap my mind around the fact that there are actually people in the world who think that’s totally ok.

Comment #47: LaylaBug  on  02/22  at  12:31 PM

If employers can deny you any treatment based on moral belief then it opens the system up to arbitrary denial of any kind of health care. If it’s “only” contraception, it’s gender discrimination and also a violation of the First Amendment since it’s favoring one religious view over others.

Comment #48: DonnaDiva  on  02/22  at  12:50 PM

I think that left and right (and everything in-between) is necessary for a healthy democracy, but that’s not happening here.

Not to worry, steps are being taken already:

WASHINGTON—Saying the now critically endangered species of politician is at high risk for complete extinction within the next 10 years, Beltway-area conservationists announced plans Monday for a new captive breeding program designed to save moderate Republicans.

According to members of the Initiative to Protect the Political Middle (IPPM), centrist Republicans, who once freely roamed the nation calling for both economic deregulation and a return to Reagan-era tax rates on the wealthy, are in dire need of protection, having lost large portions of their natural terrain to the highly territorial Evangelical and Tea Party breeds.

“Our new program is designed to isolate the few remaining specimens of moderate Republicans, mate them in captivity, and then safely release these rare and precious creatures back into the electorate,” said IPPM’s Cynthia Rollins, who traces the decline of the species to changes in the political climate and rampant, predatory fanaticism. “Within our safe, enclosed habitats, these middle-of-the-road Republican Party members can freely support increased funding for public education and even gay rights without being threatened by the far-right subgenus.”

Comment #49: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  02/22  at  01:28 PM

shade @44: That’s a good question, and I think the answer is “Yes.”  They think they would win in a no-rules game.  Most of them would be horribly wrong, but they don’t see it.

Comment #50: ScottInOH  on  02/22  at  03:20 PM

There’s an article by Tucker Carlson in Slate (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2012/02/rick_santorum_prenatal_testing_and_abortion_tucker_carlson_s_classic_essay_on_prenatal_testing_and_the_abortion_of_down_syndrome_babies_.html) defending Santorum’s blather about prenatal testing.

Tucker mostly discusses abortion of fetuses with Down syndrome, which—as he correctly points out—are perfectly capable of becoming people with productive, happy lives (albeit requiring a great deal of support)—just the sort of pregnancy guys like him think should be continued, and eventually raised.

(By someone else.)
 
However, there’s a point that he makes—entirely by accident, of course—that couldn’t be more pro-choice if he tried: births of kids with DS have gone down by a third to 46% since the 80s (possibly more—a lot of the data is from the 90s); 88-90% of women who find they have a DS fetus terminate their pregnancies; and women who do have babies with DS usually didn’t get tested.

Well, if 88-90% of DS fetuses get aborted, it’s not because only 10-12% of DS fetuses occur in anti-choice women.  It’s because, when push come to shove, 88-90% of us do support choice—if only as hypocrites. 

I’m so tired of this debate being about what someone with no skin in the game claims he or she would do, or thinks everyone else should do, and not about what everyone actually does.

Would Franzello terminate a DS pregnancy? I’m 88-90% sure she would, as would 88-90% of whatever women she thinks she represents.

Comment #51: Molly, NYC  on  02/22  at  05:12 PM

So…if person A gets to force a company to stop providing access to a service because A paid money to the company and doesn’t like said service, and if person B also gave money but vetos that veto…what then?

Or does it only work that your “say” is always negative?

I get the sense that if you asked that question of someone who seriously thought that, there’d be a pause, a strained look, and then a “But you can’t -force- people to do something that’s against their faith!”

Comment #52: Rukkiyah  on  02/22  at  06:20 PM

Seems like nearly every medical treatment—or at least ER visit—could be objectionable on a religious basis. Salmonella, e.coli, serious food poisoning: I don’t want to pay for the consequences of people who don’t eat kosher. Skin cancer caused by sun exposure: nope, you should’ve kept your sinful body covered. Treatment of women who are raped or assaulted by strangers: you should’ve been accompanied by a man. Injury from car accidents if a woman is driving: nope. Psychiatric care and counseling: against the church of Scientology. Injury due to car crash, factory machinery, or electric stuff: against my Mennonite morals.  Injury due to car crash, factory machinery, electric stuff, or workplace hazards occuring on the Sabbath: shouldn’t have been working/driving. Contraceptives: nope, against Catholic faith, and as ridiculous as everything else I just mentioned.

Comment #53: MoseyMcShuffleson  on  02/22  at  07:08 PM

The one thing wingnut political operatives know, or think they know, is that democrats will rescue them from the consequences of their actions. And will do so in such a way that the wingnuts get to excoriate them even more.
Comment #27: paul

Virginia Republican legislators had an “oh shit” moment today on the forced sonogram/abortion bill, which with very minor language differences had passed the state House and Senate.  Then Gov. McDonnell (R) issued a statement today reversing his previously announced position.  Now he opposes forcing women to be probed.  Virginia law doesn’t require a governor to sign a bill passed by both houses in order to become law.  He has to veto or sign it within 30 days or it becomes law anyway.  As the national ridicule grew and a thousand silent protestors stood outside the Capitol Building in Richmond, the Rethugs finally realized there was no one to save them from their obviously mean spirited folly.  An amendment was quickly drafted so that only abdominal sonograms would be forced and the House passed it.  But the Senate Sponsor of the original bill said the whole thing was likely dead. 

It remains to be seen if the Virginia Senate, divided 20 (R) - 20 (D) with a Lt. Gov. (R) with the tie-breaker, will proceed with the House-passed personhood bill.

Comment #54: MiddleageLiberal  on  02/22  at  11:05 PM

First I thought the issue was that they believed in “Catholic Money,” and were concerned to prevent any of their holy money from coming into any contact with wicked, sinful activities.  But, as Amanda points out, it’s worse than that.  It’s that, because there _isn’t_ such a thing as Catholic Money, we have a Schrodinger’s cat kind of situation where the money is unknowably both Catholic and non-Catholic, so to be on the safe side, we should act as though all money is Catholic Money and ensure that no money ever pays for anything a Catholic might find objectionable. 

And then, on top of that, none of this applies to, say, supporting executions via taxes Catholics have to pay by law, which is also supposedly anathema to their supposed doctrines.

This isn’t theology.  This is just making shit up after the fact.  If there’s a difference.

Comment #55: FlipYrWhig  on  02/23  at  02:17 AM

But when I hung up, I realized that what she was claiming was even more radical that that. She said specifically that even with the Obama compromise, it’s a problem, because while Catholic universities and hospitals may not pay directly for your contraception coverage (it comes out of the insurance company’s profits, in sum), because they give any money at all to the insurance company, they should have complete veto power over what it covers.

This idea reminds me of the ongoing controversies regarding firemen allowing homes to burn because of unpaid bills. It seems that Americans are now coming up with ways to divest from society, or something like that. The Catholic Church wants to divest its dollars from contraception. Citizens of unincorporated rural Tennessee can choose not to pay for firefighting, but if so the city of South Fulton prevents firefighters from helping them. The similarity is that we want to prevent “our” dollars from being used by the wrong people.

Comment #56: atheist  on  02/23  at  09:49 AM

@atheist:  Yes, that is the primary challenge facing our country right now.  Conservatives want out of the social contract, because they hate the rest of us so much.

Comment #57: Punditus Maximus  on  02/23  at  12:27 PM

@Punditus: I’d like to take away from all these ‘rugged individualists’ anything they had to rely on someone else for in some way. Computers, cars, houses, clothes, food, anything they didn’t make themselves. Computers and cars are right out. Houses maybe, but certainly not the ones they currently live in. They’ll have to start chopping down trees…wait, first they’ll have to make an axe for that. That might happen if they can figure out how to make a decent rope to tie a rock to a stick with. And so on.

These people have no freaking clue how much of their current standard of living depends on living in a functioning society.

Comment #58: Jayn Newell  on  02/23  at  02:08 PM

Whenever we discuss reproductive rights, I usually bring up my argument that this is a desire to return to an aristocratic system whereby cheap labor was leveraged to allow powerful individuals to live in luxury. It’s worth pointing out that it was very common for people who owned the big mansions that needed live-in servants before the modern era would forbid their servants to fuck, and if a female servant in particular was found to have a “gentleman caller” (usually evidenced when she got knocked up), it was grounds for immediate dismissal.

Comment #59: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/23  at  04:41 PM

Yet this is exactly the justification that states like Indiana are using for their K-12 private ed voucher system.  It isn’t the state supporting religious education, because once the state gives the money to the parent, It is the parent’s choice to decide where to spend the cash - contradiction much? 

And hope you’re feeling better soon.  What DO vegans use for chicken soup?

Comment #60: phylosopher  on  02/23  at  05:02 PM

Yes, LaylaBug.  I just had an exchange with a Teabagger in our local paper who always screams against government regs and unions.  Her next example was the Walter Reed Vet Hosp. scandal.  I researched.  Quickly found that the deplorable conditions there in 2007 were the result of union bustng and privatization.  Oh, and Barbara Mikulski, (D) had predicted exactly what would happen if they gave the private contract to the lowest Halliburton-connected bidder.

Comment #61: phylosopher  on  02/23  at  05:23 PM

@Comment #60: phylosopher on 02/23 at 05:02 PM

vegan miso or oriental flavor ramen. Personally I require Rice Crispies in almond milk to recover fully.

Comment #62: MoseyMcShuffleson  on  02/23  at  06:56 PM

my insurance really should cover that stuff smile

Comment #63: MoseyMcShuffleson  on  02/23  at  06:59 PM

Hmmmmm….MoseyMcShuffleson.  I wonder if a version of carrot laden miso would work(usually use Mrs Weiss chicken noodle soup and just cut up a bunch of carrots in it)

Comment #64: phylosopher  on  02/23  at  07:34 PM

I mean this in the kindest way but carrot miso sounds nasty. Maybe it would be ok as a thin crunchy garnish for the Ramen though.

Comment #65: MoseyMcShuffleson  on  02/24  at  03:37 AM

@Comment #59: Mighty Ponygirl on 02/23 at 03:41 PM

That is a really sage example, thanks.

Comment #66: atheist  on  02/24  at  06:59 AM

Miso soup with long, thin carrot shreds is not that unusual (the carrot more as garnish than ingredient though).  Miso I’ve seen in Japan was typically mostly miso broth with a few very finely cut vegetables(shredded, sliced paper thin or minced) and maybe some egg bits, soy beans, seaweed bits, etc.  It’s a traditional component of breakfast in parts of Japan, as are pickles (vegetable, fruit, fish), slices of apple (Amori & Akita), fish, rice, vegetable salad mixes.

Comment #67: helen w. h.  on  02/24  at  10:56 AM

Mother Avenger always recommended that if one has a severely stuffed nose/blocked sinus passages and the like, one should have some hot and sour soup from a good Chinese restaurant.

These days, they have dry mixes for h and s soup which are good if you also add a little crushed red pepper and a little apple cider vinegar before serving it.

My grandfather, who was born and grew up in Shanghai, China about 100 year ago, always said that there was a particular district outside of Shanghai were carrots were grown for the “foreigners”, as he put it.

For him a Chinese restaurant that used carrots in its’ dishes was as outlandish as a tarantula on a wedding cake.

I’m not surprised that the Japanese incorporated a European veggie into their cuisine, it would grow well in marginal soils that aren’t high in nitrogen, a good crop for a country with only 25% of the land mass being arable in the first place.

Comment #68: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  02/24  at  01:03 PM

I think carrots were a new world crop.

Comment #69: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/24  at  01:48 PM

Nope, European and West Asian , mp, in the former case, it came before the Crusades got started:

History
The wild ancestors of the carrot are likely to have come from Iran and Afghanistan, which remains the centre of diversity of D. carota, the wild carrot. Selective breeding over the centuries of a naturally occurring subspecies of the wild carrot, Daucus carota subsp. sativus, to reduce bitterness, increase sweetness and minimise the woody core, has produced the familiar garden vegetable.[6][7]

In early use, carrots were grown for their aromatic leaves and seeds, not their roots. Some relatives of the carrot are still grown for these, such as parsley, fennel, dill and cumin. The first mention of the root in classical sources is in the 1st century. The modern carrot appears to have been introduced to Europe in the 8–10th centuries.[citation needed] The 12th c. Arab Andalusian agriculturist, Ibn al-‘Awwam, describes both red and yellow carrots; Simeon Seth also mentions both colours in the 11th century. Orange-coloured carrots appeared in the Netherlands in the 17th century.[8] These, the modern carrots, were intended by the antiquary John Aubrey (1626–1697) when he noted in his memoranda “Carrots were first sown at Beckington in Somersetshire Some very old Man there [in 1668] did remember their first bringing hither.”[9]

Comment #70: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  02/24  at  04:43 PM

“That’s how seriously they hate women. They’re basically willing to burn the entire health care system to the ground rather than let some woman somewhere have sex without paying a penalty for it. Damn.”

It’s not even worth picking apart your argument.  Any series of inferences that end with this conclusion - understanding that “they” is conservatives generally, rather than sum small inconsequential subset - is not worth serious consideration and should cause the author to immediately re-think her entire world view.

Sun Zu admonished us to “know your enemies”.  I can assure you: you do not.

Not even close.

But don’t worry, I realize this is not imperative to your mission.  And seeing everything in such stark extremes sounds like real fun.  But still…

Comment #71: agnostrick  on  02/25  at  02:30 PM

Yes, the person who grew up in west Texas has no idea how a substantial subgroup of conservatives speak and act.  Right.
The problem is when people think these assholes are some (not sum, sum would be numerative as it is associated with summation) small inconsequential subset.  They aren’t that small nor are they inconsequential.  Hence the slow, painful swing rightward in politics despite the many public attitudes that continue to progress.
And it’s Sun Wu (more commonly known as Sun Tzu or Sunzi).
If you do that badly on the dismissal, it’s best you not try to tackle the actual argument.

Comment #72: helen w. h.  on  03/02  at  02:31 PM
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