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Next entry: Texas will secede and you’ll finally get that pony Previous entry: Teabagging Gov. Rick Perry says it’s time for the Lone Star State to secede

The Advocate interviews mom of 11-year-old who committed suicide over gay taunts

LGBTRace

Eleven-year-old Carl Joseph Walker-Hoover did not have to die. He wrapped an extension cord around his neck and hanged himself, leaving this earth because of months of anti-gay taunts by his classmates at New Leadership Charter School in Springfield, MA. The Advocate‘s William McGuinness interviewed his mother, Sirdeaner Walker. This story is almost too painful for words.

Sirdeaner Walker, who has survived domestic violence, homelessness, and breast cancer, knew death could come suddenly—but she could not have predicted it would find her 11-year-old son first.

On April 6, Sirdeaner Walker came home, walked up the stairs to the second floor of her home, and saw her son suspended from a support beam in the stairwell, swaying slightly in the air, an extension cord wrapped around his neck, according to police. He apologized in a suicide note, told his mother that he loved her, and left his video games to his brother.

Walker said her son had been the victim of bullying since the beginning of the school year, and that she had been calling the school since September, complaining that her son was mercilessly teased. He played football, baseball, and was a boy scout, but a group of classmates called him gay and teased him about the way he dressed. They ridiculed him for going to church with his mother and for volunteering locally.

It’s not just a gay issue,” Walker said. “It’s bigger. He was 11 years old, and he wasn’t aware of his sexuality. These homophobic people attach derogatory terms to a child who’s 11 years old, who goes to church, school, and the library, and he becomes confused. He thinks, Maybe I’m like this. Maybe I’m not. What do I do?”

His birthday, April 17, falls this year on the 13th National Day of Silence, a day on which individuals observe vows of silence for students bullied at school.

I want to ask a question—why do these purportedly “Christian” organizations oppose the Day of Silence? Little Carl is what this day is about. How can these homophobes sleep at night knowing this little boy—and so many others like him—was so tormented by others in his school that the only way out was to kill himself? That school officials didn’t do anything to stop the bullying, essentially blaming the victim “student immaturity,” that Carl should just “buck up” and take it, and ignoring his fear that naming those who tortured him would label him a snitch.

This was considered “a solution” by the school.

Hilda Clarice Graham, an expert on bullies and a school safety consultant with International Training Associates, said students often use assumed sexual orientation as a main weapon against one another. “It’s the hammer that hurts the most and is the most vulnerable and hurtful thing going,” she said.

...Days prior to Carl Walker-Hoover’s suicide, he confronted a female bully who verbally accosted him. The event served as an apparent catalyst to Walker’s suicide. The school’s response was to have the two students sit beside one another during lunch for the next week to encourage conversation.

Good god. How on earth did any adult think this was the answer to the problem? Where is common sense?

Graham says the school’s response is not ideal because “for mediation to work, there must be equal power.” She said bullies’ goals are to hurt, and to depend on them to feel remorseful is not an effectual way to deal with them—that victims are at a disadvantage when trying to make peace alone.

On Friday, thousands of students will participate in the 13th annual National Day of Silence, and who knows how many fundie parents will choose to make their kids stay home so that they cannot be exposed to a silent call for tolerance. What are these people teaching their kids—that bullying is OK? That even children who don’t identify as gay, like Carl, have to go day after day to a learning environment that foments torment and emotional baiting of students based on homophobia? What is wrong with these people?

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Posted by Pam Spaulding on 09:00 AM • (102) Comments

What a horrifying story. Here’s hoping his mother’s efforts can save some other kids from this kind of horror.

My primary school used a similarly stupid tactic as Carl’s school did. The bully and victim would be made to shake hands in front of the class, or even the whole school at assembly, and then it would be officially All Right Again. Because bullying is just a bit of fun gone wrong (rather like date rape!) and we wouldn’t like to see anyone punished for that kind of an unfortunate misunderstanding, would we?
This method, surprisingly enough, utterly failed to fix the school’s massive bullying problem.

Comment #1: MissPrism  on  04/16  at  09:42 AM

I remember.

I remember other guys getting taunted and accused of being gay.  Most weren’t but some were.

I remember getting taunted myself, even though I am not gay.  And it hurt.

Worst of all, I remember taunting other kids and accusing them of being gay.  I don’t remember doing it to kids I actually thought were gay, just assholes who I thought needed to be brought down.  But that still didn’t make it right.

Adolescents are pretty rough on each other.  But there’s no reason some kid should be taunted so much they feel they need to kill themselves to escape the pain.  Sad.  Very very sad…

Comment #2: MikeEss  on  04/16  at  09:42 AM

I remember getting taunted myself, even though I am not gay.  And it hurt.

+1

This story is proof positive that we ALL have a vested interest in ending homobigotry, gay or straight.  Because even folks who aren’t gay often become victims of anti-gay violence and bullying… remember those two brothers a few months ago who the attackers were convinced were lovers?

This must end.  My heart hurts so much for that poor mother right.

Comment #3: DTG in STL  on  04/16  at  09:57 AM

These homophobic people attach derogatory terms to a child who’s 11 years old

You kind of have to wonder how, at that age, the tormenters “knew enough” to engage in anti-gay slurs. You have to assume they learned it from older siblings and parents.

My primary school used a similarly stupid tactic as Carl’s school did.

And how did the schools develop such a naive generation of teachers that believed this sort of thing would work?

Comment #4: Tyro  on  04/16  at  10:04 AM

The structure of the educational system takes relies on bullying. If you’re a teacher who is in charge of 30+ students, and is actually trying to get them to learn a thing or two, it’s important to outsource discipline to the alpha students. If you get on the good side of one of the powerful, popular kids, then they might decide you’re “all right” and behave in your class, and keep their clique in line, which means that your class is a little more productive. The downside is that you have to make a blood sacrifice to the popular kids by letting them chew up and spit out the unpopular kids. But hey, it keeps them on the top of the pecking order, and if they’re more or less in your pocket as the educator, you can sleep soundly at night knowing that the ends justify the means. You got to the most students you could in the most effective manner possible.

If you suddenly started caring about the kids who were being tormented day in/day out in your classes, then made more than the occasional throwaway effort to get people to “play nice” when a parent complains, then you’d risk alienating the powerful kids and they (and their cliques) would turn against you, and you’d have a much harder time getting anything done in your class.

Comment #5: Mighty Ponygirl  on  04/16  at  10:05 AM

I had a terrible experience with bullying in 7th grade.  One girl who used to be a good friend started rumors that I was pregnant.  I was 12!  I’m not sure I even knew how to get pregnant at that age.  That was only the beginning and it got much worse after that, almost to the point of physical violence.  Eventually we had a meeting with our parents and the principal.  In the end, my family ended up moving and I went to a different school, which was the only solution to that problem.  Unfortunately, most families of bullied children don’t have the option to just move away.  I hope that fundies realize that bullying is not just about homophobia.  It can affect anyone, even their own children.

Comment #6: bananacat  on  04/16  at  10:07 AM

The structure of the educational system takes relies on bullying. If you’re a teacher who is in charge of 30+ students, and is actually trying to get them to learn a thing or two, it’s important to outsource discipline to the alpha students.

If you’re a shit teacher.  That’s fucked up.

A good teacher is in charge of her/his classroom and doesn’t need to outsource.  A good teacher teaches all the kids in her/his class and finds ways to get them involved and interested.  A good teacher doesn’t allow cliquing up or bullying.

True, there are far more shit teachers than really good teachers, and a hell of a lot of adequate teachers who can teach the ‘good’ kids but don’t try to modify a lesson plan in order to teach all their students unless required by law, but teaching itself doesn’t require bullying or outsourced bullying.

In fact, relying on bullies to run your classroom is a good way to lose all respect and discipline.

—————

There’s no proper response to what this school allowed to happen.  I want her to sue the ever living fuck out of them, b/c there’s nothing else we can do.  The children who bullied that kid need to know that his suicide was a consequence of their bullying, and that it’s neither funny nor acceptable to torture someone.

This fucking school will coddle the bullies again, try to make them feel like it’s okay that they tormented someone to death, and it is SO VERY NOT OKAY.  Completely unacceptable.

Comment #7: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  04/16  at  10:16 AM

Charter schools often market themselves as “better” about bullying, but they are as mixed a bag as public schools and specific ones get on this stupidifying “character building” jag that just promotes the whole mess.  Add in that many middle schools are understaffed and don’t believe in actual supervision of kids who are still quite young, and it can get toxic even if the numbers of students are quite small.  Small class sizes does not mean no bullying by fiat.

That said, gay-bullying in lower grades did spike in the early days of gay marriage, because the children of bigoted idiots observed their bigoted idiot parents spewing forth on the subject.  My kids, one of whom was in kindergarten, came home in tears one day and I immediately called the principal and asked “what the hell is going on in those bus lines and why didn’t anybody hear any of this?  Where were the adults?”.

Guess what?  One teacher who was a well known piece of work was jabbering with staff rather than supervising and claimed to have no idea why my son was crying.  Gee, imagine ... a group of backward idiot fifth graders starts saying sexually graphic homophobic things because a second grade student comforted his little brother and “oh I don’t know what happened”, and continued to bully them all the way home on the bus (somehow, the driver was paying more attention than Ms Peesowork).

Fortunately, the principal was not amused.  The teacher was laid off at the end of the year - interesting, as she had more seniority than some of the others.  The parents of the students who were harassing my sons were asked to come into the Principals office and explain why their children were sexually abusing a kindergarten student (by saying he and his brother must be putting their penises in each others butts and licking each other’s penises at home).  Kind of his way to tell them that “your kids are listening to your spew and will use it to abuse smaller kids, so STFU already!”.

If the principal takes a hard line on bullying, and makes parents come in and explain their children’s behavior at expense, and demands that staff be aware of what kids are doing and saying,  things can and do change.

Comment #8: Ms Kate  on  04/16  at  10:28 AM

The structure of the educational system takes relies on bullying. If you’re a teacher who is in charge of 30+ students, and is actually trying to get them to learn a thing or two, it’s important to outsource discipline to the alpha students.

Bullshit.

My younger son has 28 kids in his class, and bullying is not a problem, and his teacher routinely generates classes with some of the highest exam scores in the state and has for over a decade.  They are learning a lot, and there isn’t bullying going on.

Next presumption ...

Comment #9: Ms Kate  on  04/16  at  10:31 AM

Not a presumption—an experience. My middle school experience was one of teacher complicity in bullying and establishing the pecking order. They were shit teachers, yes, and I’m close to more than one public school teacher who isn’t a shit teacher, but I suspect that these are the exceptions, not the norm. With the way that the public school system has been gutted in the last few decades, good teachers are an increasing rarity.

Comment #10: Mighty Ponygirl  on  04/16  at  10:34 AM

Caren, a blame fest hate-a-thon on the kids themselves isn’t appropriate either. 

What needs to take place is that teachers, staff, and the principal are held accountable for creating a hazardous workplace. 

My son’s middle school addresses bullying at ALL LEVELS - it doesn’t devolve it soley to the student, but holds staff, teachers, students - everyone - accountable.  It has to be all the way through the system, not just devolved and devolved until it becomes a “consequences of individual behavior” matter.  One reason I send my sons to a particular middle school, despite their discouraging take on parental involvement, is because they do an effective job of bully suppression by designing an age-appropriate environment that mixes kids around with each other to suppress cliques and retains active supervision of students, rather than looking at the size of the kids and washing their hands of it.

Comment #11: Ms Kate  on  04/16  at  10:35 AM

The structure of the educational system takes relies on bullying. If you’re a teacher who is in charge of 30+ students, and is actually trying to get them to learn a thing or two, it’s important to outsource discipline to the alpha students.

Wow. Is this comment for real? I don’t want teachers like this anywhere near students. The profession is very challenging - low pay, long hours, but give me a break. It’s time to walk away from the classroom if you are going to let minor children rule the roost and decide social pack order via bullying. This is a problem for adults to fix.

Comment #12: Pam Spaulding  on  04/16  at  10:38 AM

Ms Kate - yes, I went to two different primary schools, and the one with the bullying problem actually had lower class sizes (15 to 20?). The other one had 30 kids per class, but also a headmistress who wouldn’t put up with bullying.

Comment #13: MissPrism  on  04/16  at  10:39 AM

The bottom line is that, a lot of the time, the kids who get picked on are people the teachers, parents, administrators, and other authority figures agree deserve to be bullied. 

And it’s not just sexuality/gender that applies, here.  Race is a factor.  Social class is a factor.  Religion can be a factor.  I don’t think it was a coincidence at my Catholic high school that all the “no good burnout” kids (many of whom were actually the most talented and promising people there) all just so happened to be gay, working class, non-white, non-Catholic/Christian, or any other minority category that exists.  With a few kids from “majority” groups who were notorious upstarts.  Not only were we bullied, but we were also routinely victimized by authority figures - often with the complicity of our parents - and scapegoated for basically everything bad that ever happened.  To the extent of multiple friends of mine being expelled for trying to blow up the school (even though no blowing up, attempted or real, existed anywhere but in the administration’s minds).

Comment #14: The Opoponax  on  04/16  at  10:43 AM

“your kids are listening to your spew and will use it to abuse smaller kids, so STFU already!”.

Yeah, adults tend to underestimate children and think they are just deaf if they aren’t visibly listening.  It was very easy to eavesdrop as a child.  Children haven’t learned yet when to politely stop listening or walk away, and they are very curious, and able to understand a lot more than we give them credit for.

Comment #15: bananacat  on  04/16  at  10:43 AM

The bottom line is that, a lot of the time, the kids who get picked on are people the teachers, parents, administrators, and other authority figures agree deserve to be bullied.

I was always the teacher’s pet, and I was still bullied, sometimes because of it.  I was the well-behaved kid who always got good grades.  No one is immune from bullying.  From my experience, the teachers aren’t really a part of it because they rarely even realize that it’s happening.

Comment #16: bananacat  on  04/16  at  10:46 AM

Pam: illustration by way of anecdote. When I was in sixth grade, one of my classmate’s father committed suicide. I wouldn’t have known this, except that the teachers stood up and announced this to the whole class. “so let’s be nice to him.” There was no follow-up on that suggestion, and he was pretty much thrown to the wolves. Naturally, he started having troubles of his own, as going through that trauma and then being tormented by your classmates would for any individual. He started to drop out and we’d go weeks without seeing him in school. He was never disruptive or violent, just quiet and depressed.

One day, in eighth grade, he showed up after a long absence and took his seat in Algebra. The teacher, who was a “favorite” of the popular kids, in front of the whole class (again), told him “you can’t come back to my class until you bring me an absence slip.” There was no way this kid had an excused absence—he just decided to show up and give school another try, but the teacher basically kicked him out of class. Singled out and humiliated, the kid got up from the desk to leave the class, and accidentally knocked some of his books to the floor when he did so. He thought for a moment about picking up the books, but was so embarrassed that he just left without picking them up.

Once he left the room, the teacher turned to the class and made the “cuckoo” sign, for big laughs.

He was considered by the administration and the PTA as one of the “best teachers” in the school because he had such a great popularity with the kids and his classes tended to run pretty smooth.

This was because, if a popular kid was bullying an unpopular kid, he’d solve the problem by sending the kid who was being bullied to the office for detention. Problem solved! The popular kid got the unpopular kid in trouble, and was happy, and the disruption of the bullying was resolved by punishing the victim. His approach to this was pretty common throughout the school, in fact.

And yeah, this school system was considered one of the best school systems in the area. If you were a popular kid, you got a lot out of it. If you were an unpopular kid, you were just grist for the mill.

Comment #17: Mighty Ponygirl  on  04/16  at  10:57 AM

Catgirl, my point wasn’t “well behaved kids never get bullied”.  But that a lot of the time, the kids who are bullied are the sorts of people that the adults are interested in sweeping under the rug.  Do some overachiever kids get bullied?  Sure.  As I said, most of my friends at the Catholic school who were considered worthless scum fit only for abuse were the most talented and promising students there. Many of us were, at the heart of it “teacher’s pets”.  And generally well-behaved as far as teenagers go (and certainly we didn’t have the privilege to cut class, sneak out to keggers, smoke in the parking lot, etc). 

But we were queer.  And Jewish.  And gender-nonconforming.  And black (or almost as bad, FRIENDS WITH BLACK KIDS!).  And poor.  And let’s not forget the kicker: “uppity”.  Even the middle class straight white Catholic kids who got lumped in with us had a certain quality of refusing to back down, refusing to sit down and shut up and scale back our aspirations in line with our “station”.  Or even just not being ashamed of our creativity and intelligence - it always fascinated me that there was a certain kind of overachiever who was accepted, but then there was a different kind of overachiever who needed to be nipped in the bud.

Comment #18: The Opoponax  on  04/16  at  10:57 AM

If you were going to pick a juvenile to try as an adult.

Comment #19: paul  on  04/16  at  10:59 AM

BTW, you described my 8th grade algebra teacher to a T.  In fact, most of my 8th grade teachers—it was sort of interesting how the most bully-friendly teachers taught 8th grade.

Comment #20: The Opoponax  on  04/16  at  11:06 AM

Schools can address and deal with bullying.  It takes teachers who care, and they have to start early.

I grew up in New England, and this is typical of the attitudes I remember in school.  If a child was bullied, it was something for the child to fix, for the child to deal with.  The idea was that standing up to bullies made them stronger, and they needed to be stronger.  Hell- had they been strong enough in the first place, they never would have been the target of the bully.  It was an awful way to grow up, and I’m sure plenty of people still have the scars. 

But- it isn’t all that is out there.  My kids are in a school that teaches them from an early age (kindergarten) not to bully, and it really does make a difference.  The kids know better how to deal with it, and the teachers are better equipped to squelch it.  I’ve seen quite a few kids that would get totally beat up had they been at my old school, and their classmates are very kind and supportive to them.  Not to imply there is no bullying, but it is minimal, and stands out, instead of being “normal”.

Comment #21: drachonfire  on  04/16  at  11:19 AM

This makes me sick.  What a great kid—it’s a damn shame to have to continue to live in a world without him in it.

Comment #22: Heaventree  on  04/16  at  11:26 AM

The structure of the educational system takes relies on bullying.

It’s worse than that - you can remove the word “educational” from that sentence, and make it even more accurate. We live in a society predicated on bullying. The fundies just make it more explicit and take it further - their entire worldview is based on the idea that bullying is the fundamental fact of the universe, and that that’s a good thing.

I was also very academically successful at school, and never really got into trouble. I was also bullied mercilessly throughout my entire school career. However, because I wasn’t entirely a spineless suck-up, and would even go so far as to correct my teachers when they were blatantly wrong (such as the time my geography teacher told the class that gravity is caused by air pressure, I shit you not!) then as far as the school authorities were concerned, I had it coming. One time when I went to the headmaster to complain about having bricks thrown at me (and I do mean at me, not near me) his exact response (which I will never forget to the day I die) was “Quite frankly Duncan, I don’t know whether to punish them or pay them.”

I’m not generally a vindictive man, but I have to admit that I hope that fucker dies a slow, painful and publicly humiliating death after losing everything and everyone he cares about, preferably as a result of his own actions. (Lets not even talk about the 13 year-old kid who hanged himself in his bedroom after they put the full-scale frighteners on him for being caught with a joints-worth of hash.)

It wasn’t until I was in my 30s that I realised that constant suicidal ideation is not actually perfectly normal.

Arthur Silber has two very good posts on this subject, which I would urge everyone to read:

Bullied, Terrorized, and Targeted for Destruction: Our Children Have Learned Well

Our children are taught that we equate “manliness” and “strength” with close to complete disregard for other people, with emotional repression and insensitivity to the point of catatonia, and with a willingness to resort to physical violence at the slightest provocation, and even in the complete absence of any provocation at all. We tell those people who suffer great emotional pain and even agony, often when they contemplate the terrible suffering of others, to “suck it up” and to have “thicker skins.” The greatest virtue is to feel nothing, or as close to nothing as possible. There is one exception: you can feel unreasoning, unfocused rage, and you are free to act on it. You may lash out in any direction you choose. The innocence of your victim is irrelevant.

Choosing Sides (III): Let the Victims Speak

Focus on the critical sentence: “Yet, when a victim explodes or acts out in unacceptable ways, these same officials are shocked and indignant.”

What exactly are these “unacceptable ways” of exploding or acting out? Who decided they were “unacceptable”? Why is it that “reluctant school officials” will not “take definitive action” against the bullies—thus tacitly conceding that the bullying itself is not all that “unacceptable”—while the same officials are “shocked and indignant” when the victim protests too strongly?

This pattern, and certain of its origins, will be found throughout history, in every culture around the world. The pattern is a simple and deadly one: the oppressor—that is, those who are in the superior position, whether they are parents, school officials, or the government, or in a superior position merely by virtue of physical strength—may inflict bodily harm and/or grievous, lifelong emotional and psychological injury, but the victim may only protest within the limits set by the oppressor himself. The oppressor will determine those forms of protest by the victim that are “acceptable.”

Sorry for the long comment, but I think this shit is important. Possibly the single most important issue in our society, in that it interacts with, and indeed provides the essential psychological background for, almost all of the other problems of our society.

Comment #23: Dunc  on  04/16  at  11:45 AM

As someone who was bullied in school, I hope those kids eventually understand what it means to be responsible for someone else’s suicide, and I hope it haunts them for the rest of their days.

That may be petty of me, but I’m still kind of bitter about middle school.

Comment #24: spence-bob  on  04/16  at  11:52 AM

Mighty Ponygirl- the dynamic you mention is very familiar to me as well.  You didn’t happen to grow up in an upper middle class western suburb of Boston, did you?

Comment #25: Gavel Down  on  04/16  at  11:54 AM

The school’s response was to have the two students sit beside one another during lunch for the next week to encourage conversation.

Who made this decision, and can we get them (actually, their replacement, because they themselves should be fired) some training over and above repeated watchings of ABC Afterschool Specials?

Comment #26: RickMassimo  on  04/16  at  11:55 AM

I want to ask a question—why do these purportedly “Christian” organizations oppose the Day of Silence?

They’re Xtian organisations—big difference. “Prosperity gospel” and other corporatised American Xtian sects would be nothing without decades of public school administrators who promote or tolerate this sort of bullying and pecking order. It’s all part of the Human Resources Culture that’s infected our society, from schools to corporate life to these “Christian” megachurches.

So yes, Pam, it is for real and it’s baked into the system. It’s similar (and not by co-incidence) to the “trusty” system we see in American prisons: the guards and warden (teachers and principal) can’t really control an over-crowded and under-funded institutional environment, so they “outsource” discipline to trustys (favoured students—usually suck ups and entitled kids) and/or gang leaders (alpha bullies and psychopaths). To be fair to the majority of teachers, it’s generally less their fault than it is that of administrators—although there’s a certain type of teacher that happily embraces it.

As usual in these threads, I take the opportunity to link to John Taylor Gatto’s site for those who want more info. From the site:

Not only was the new form of institution spiritually dangerous as a matter of course, but school became a physically dangerous place as well.

What better way to habituate kids to abandoning trust in their peers (and themselves) than to create an atmosphere of constant low-level stress and danger, relief from which is only available by appeal to authority? And many times not even then!   

Horace Mann had sold forced schooling to industrialists of the mid-nineteenth century as the best “police” to create moral children, but ironically, as it turned out in the twentieth century, big business and big government were best served by making schoolrooms antechambers to Hell.

Comment #27: Gracchus.  on  04/16  at  11:57 AM

Opoponax, I think the single most important reason that my children’s schools deal with bullying is that our city is highly diverse for a suburban school district (for example, I coached my son’s soccer team and there were 12 kids representing seven different in-home languages).  I also think it is why the administrators with a great track record in this area were promoted to head the new and larger schools when they were all rebuilt and the known bully coddlers who headed the formerly smaller and more segregated schools retired.

In our area, bullying isn’t seen as bullying: it is seen as a potential civil rights liability.

Comment #28: Ms Kate  on  04/16  at  11:58 AM

Gavel Down—nope. Liberal college town in the midwest.

But that’s the problem. It’s not like we can isolate the issue, just because we recognize it as our own experience does not make it unique. It’s pervasive. The Opo’s comment about the 8th grade algebra teaching sadists… there are thousands of people who would raise their hand and declare OMG that’s totally the experience we had! Did we go to school together? Sadly, no. Not likely.

Comment #29: Mighty Ponygirl  on  04/16  at  12:02 PM

Oh, and I wish that bullying was a civil rights liability everywhere - the thread of a career-ending and expensive lawsuit is, unfortunately, what gets the attention of those with the power to stop the nonsense.

Comment #30: Ms Kate  on  04/16  at  12:02 PM

To be fair to the majority of teachers, it’s generally less their fault than it is that of administrators—although there’s a certain type of teacher that happily embraces it.

This is important: the system is self-cleaning. If you have an administration that supports bullying and teachers who allow bullying and the outsourcing of discipline to bullies, good teachers who actually care about the civil rights of the bullied become the unpopular teacher. They become the asshole teacher who doesn’t have a sense of humor and who like, totally sucks. The kids gang up on them and make their jobs impossible, and the administration sees it not as a problem of the students (who aren’t like this in other classes) but of the teacher, who can’t keep order in the classroom. These teachers either learn to assimilate to the way of doing things, or they throw up their hands and look for a different place to teach.

Comment #31: Mighty Ponygirl  on  04/16  at  12:07 PM

I went to an all-boys prep school (the same one as presidents Bush, in fact), and if I had a dollar for each time we called each other faggots, I wouldn’t have to have a job to steal time from to write this.

Kids will be kids, i.e., jerks. It’s up to grownups to step in and stop things before they go too far.

This comic has an interesting take on the issue.

Comment #32: Bitter Scribe  on  04/16  at  12:08 PM

My mother, a public school teacher, found a good temporary cure for students who act out in class: forcing them to stand up at their desks for the entire class.  They REALLY don’t like being the only kid doing that.  It seems to embarrass them enough that they’re less likely to act out for the next few days.

A cousin of mine was cyberbullied.  In school the (girls, mostly) who were mean to her were generally standoffish, but not threatening while under the eye of teachers.  Once she got home, she’d get horrible, insulting text messages and notes left on her myspace page.  She changed her phone number and did some other things to stem the online harassment, but it really never stopped.  Her parents (my aunt and uncle) complained directly to the parents of the girls doing the bullying; one girl stopped by force of her parents’ anger, and the other girl’s parents didn’t seem to care.

I was bullied, and had a similar experience to what Mighty Ponygirl described.  The teachers humored bullies or looked the other way, and basically took the approach that discipline of “problem” students took too long and didn’t solve student relationship problems anyway, so ignoring it worked best.  I DID grow up in an upper middle-class suburb of Boston, and later in southern NH, and it was the same in both schools.

Comment #33: deep6  on  04/16  at  12:22 PM

they “outsource” discipline to trustys (favoured students—usually suck ups and entitled kids)

Who, it’s important to note, are NOT the same breed as the kids we call “teacher’s pet”.  In fact, in my experience these were often the administration’s favorite kids, or the kids who were widely known as being from wealthy families, socially prominent, star athletes/cheerleaders, and the like.  Often they were good students and generally the goody-goody well behaved popular kids, or at least that’s the front supplied for the adults (or their bad behavior is deliberately un-seen due to their families’ wealth or status). 

It’s also important to understand that often all authority figures don’t act in lockstep.  You can be the special pet of a certain teacher, or even some certain teachers, but still a target of the administration.  You can be targeted by one teacher, or one administrator.

Comment #34: The Opoponax  on  04/16  at  12:25 PM

Her parents (my aunt and uncle) complained directly to the parents of the girls doing the bullying; one girl stopped by force of her parents’ anger, and the other girl’s parents didn’t seem to care.

I recently saw a similar case of cyber-bullying with an elementary school relative. The complicity of the main bully’s mother (there was also, classically, a toady and an ineffective bystander participating) was stunning. Her first response to the accusation was to deny any involvement and threaten the school with a lawsuit (one guess as to the mother’s profession). After it became clear through evidence that her kid was involved, she tried to shift the blame to the toady and bystander. Fortunately, the parents of the other kids caught wind of this, and all the participants ended up in the soup to one degree or another.

The other two parents reacted predictably, as well. The bystander’s parent was outraged at her kid, and punished her more harshly than the other two. The toady’s parent was a shrugging “kids will be kids” type who let the school dictate the punishment. The primary bully’s parent found a way to undermine even the school’s punishment.

Comment #35: Gracchus.  on  04/16  at  12:38 PM

In fact, in my experience these were often the administration’s favorite kids, or the kids who were widely known as being from wealthy families, socially prominent, star athletes/cheerleaders, and the like.

Exactly—all come into the institution with an advantage and sense of entitlement. Although the athletes/cheerleaders seem to fall more into the gang-leader/enforcer part of the equation.

The trustys/entitled kids deal out “soft” discipline, while the enforcers/traditional bullies do the “hard” discipline.

It’s also important to understand that often all authority figures don’t act in lockstep.  You can be the special pet of a certain teacher, or even some certain teachers, but still a target of the administration.  You can be targeted by one teacher, or one administrator.

Definitely. Often kids are caught up in various long-standing grudges and political turf wars between teachers and administrators, with the bullies and trustys used as proxies. It’s a mess.

I’m thankful every day of my life that I was spared this system when I was a teenager.

Comment #36: Gracchus.  on  04/16  at  12:47 PM

Put a potbellied male and a skinny male in a room and which one will people react more positively towards?

In my experience? The skinny one, by a landslide.

See, for example,


***

The bottom line is that, a lot of the time, the kids who get picked on are people the teachers, parents, administrators, and other authority figures agree deserve to be bullied.

Oh, definitely.

As a kid, I was a socially awkward child prodigy.  I got bullied a lot by my elementary and middle school peers.  It wasn’t as bad as some of the stories I’ve heard, but if someone wanted to pick a fight they could usually manage to upset me enough to be the one to escalate to physical violence (because it was really the only way to get the verbal abuse to stop), but I wasn’t strong or skilled enough to actually hurt them.  This kept happening, and the only noticeable administrative response was to try to counsel me about anger management, because the Bad Thing was not bullying, but fighting on campus.

But when I went to the next school for math classes, that stopped, because it was very, very obvious that anyone who tried anything would bring the wrath of two schools’ worth of administrators down on them.  It’s not that the students were more mature; when I got to middle school, I was still bullied by middle schoolers even though other middle schoolers had treated me fine as a 5th grader, because at that point I wasn’t a special case and was expected to just deal with it like everyone else.

Comment #37: jfpbookworm  on  04/16  at  12:51 PM

“And how did the schools develop such a naive generation of teachers that believed this sort of thing would work?”

It’s not just this generation of teachers.  I was subjected to this “shake hands” “talk to each other” nonsense, and believe me when I say I am almost certainly the oldest person commenting here.  I was in elementary school in the 1940s.

And it has spread to the courts.  Some years ago, when woman stole our dog and sold it to a provider of dogs for biological research, we were forced to participate in a VORP—Victim Offender Reconciliation Process.  As you might imagine, neither party changed their minds.

Comment #38: Older  on  04/16  at  01:15 PM

School is a terrible place for healthy kids, but deadly for those with mental illness or mood disorders. I’m lucky I lived through it, really.

Comment #39: Diane  on  04/16  at  01:33 PM

In school the (girls, mostly) who were mean to her were generally standoffish, but not threatening while under the eye of teachers.  Once she got home, she’d get horrible, insulting text messages and notes left on her myspace page

Yes, I think teachers are often unaware of bullying.  Even when it is reported, they have no idea the extent of it because they don’t like to think kids can be that mean, and they completely forget about their childhood.  Bullies go to a great extent not to get caught, and it’s easy for them when adults already want to believe that they are good.

Comment #40: bananacat  on  04/16  at  01:53 PM

In seventh grade my best friend suddenly turned on me, and egged on by other more popular girls started a rumor that I was a slut and had slept with the entire football team.  Oddly enough, when she got pregnant at 14 while we were still in middle school, I was the only one who would hang out with her (I’m kind of stupidly loyal sometimes).

When my husband was in high school, his mom yelled at him for riding his bike on the wrong side of the street, so he had to explain that if he rode with traffic frequently other students would hit him from their cars, or try to shove him over, veering close enough to reach him with an outstretched arm.  If he saw them coming, he at least had a chance to get away. 

He also has horrible arthritis in his hands, and has since his 20s, because he got into a fight every single day he went to high school.  At one point five basketball players ambushed him after drama practice.  He’d been taking karate and kickboxing since he was a kid, so he did some damage, but outnumbered five to one he didn’t have much of a chance.  The next day the basketball coach came up to him in the hall to tell HIM to lay off his players.  At which point my husband said, “You know, maybe you should tell them not to jump people.” 

I went to three high schools in three states, and my last one in Seattle, WA was by far the best one as far as lack of bullying.  Granted there was still some, but not to the hyper aggressive levels it reached in Boise, ID, or the emotional brutality of my high school in Columbus, OH.  Granted, it could also be that by the time I got there, I had already developed the hard crusty outer shell of outsider and just didn’t pay attention to it. Although I WILL say that Seattle was also friendlier from the get go than any of my other high schools.

Comment #41: GeekGirlsRule  on  04/16  at  02:12 PM

Good Lord. I didn’t always have the easiest time in school, being the bookish, hopelessly unathletic sort, but some of the stories in this thread make my hair stand on end. I didn’t know how lucky I was.

I’ve always thought there must be a maximum IQ requirement (and not a very high one) for school administrators, and this discussion has certainly done nothing to shake that conviction.

Comment #42: Steve LaBonne  on  04/16  at  02:36 PM

Geek Girl- I have to ask, which high school in Boise? I went to high school there as well, and was aware of very little bullying at the school I attended. I’m wondering if it is a matter of time period, the schools themselves (as I’m sure some of the socio-economic issues influence the likelihood), or if I was just profoundly unaware, which would surprise me, as I was pretty much friends with everybody…

As to the the actual post, there are no words to how horrific this is, and the changes that need to be made that allowed this to happen.

Comment #43: Awkward  on  04/16  at  02:37 PM

I was subjected to this “shake hands” “talk to each other” nonsense, and believe me when I say I am almost certainly the oldest person commenting here.  I was in elementary school in the 1940s.

It was still firmly entrenched in the 1970s.

Comment #44: spence-bob  on  04/16  at  02:37 PM

<quote>Graham says the school’s response is not ideal because “for mediation to work, there must be equal power.” </quote>

Well, for mediation to work there has to be some actual mediation, and for it to be mediation you have to have an actual mediator.  Getting kids to sit next to each other for two weeks is not mediation.

(Also, with a good mediator, a power imbalace can be rectified.)

Comment #45: Katherine  on  04/16  at  02:39 PM

Awkward:  I attended Lake Hazel Junior High and Meridian High school.  Meridian only for the 1986-87 school year, the last year before it split and they opened Centennial. 

Don’t feel bad if you were unaware of the bullying.  Unless you’re in the “victim” class, or one of the bullies, it is entirely possible to miss it.  I’ve known several people who managed to just sail through junior high or high school unnoticed by the bullies, and while I’m glad for them, I’m also more than a little jealous.  During the years of 1983 until we left the state in 1987 I was harassed by boys and girls, I was physically assaulted, I was spit on, I was raped, I was hit by a car.  My big crime?  Having developed early, bad skin and good grades.  Eventually a dermatologist took care of the bad skin, puberty eventually caught up to the other girls, and the stress of living under seige dropped my grades, but the bullying continued.  I was suicidal for years in my teens, and developed problems with drugs, alcohol and an eating disorder.

The Husband who went to school in Eastern Washington which is very similar in climate (both physically and socially) to Idaho, had an equally hellish time.

Listen to the song “Saint Joe on the School Bus” by Marcy Playground.  If you don’t “get” it, you were either very lucky, or part of the problem.

Comment #46: GeekGirlsRule  on  04/16  at  02:46 PM

Bullying for me peaked in middle school and rapidly dropped off. Part of this was because the bullies in question switched to other schools. The other part was because, I think, the paranoia of college admissions was such that my classmates and I were all way too worried about our futures to bully anyone.

Though something was in play: being a private school, there was a small population of students, and it probably just so happened that there were few if any people with bullying personalities. All it takes is a few willing to find someone else to pick on and organize willing followers to participate. In a larger school, the chances of one of them being present within a large student body is almost 100%. In a smaller school, there’s at least a decent chance that such an element will be absent. I think a lot of people can bully others, if pushed, but it takes the instigation of someone particularly malicious and willing to spend time on and plan on it to promote the idea (perhaps acting in concert with each other). I suspect that school environments can be improved by finding and isolating these elements.

Still though, I wonder where the naive earnestness of some teachers and parents comes from when it comes to bullying. Perhaps many people simply have a certain optimism and rose-colored view of the nature of children that I simply don’t have.

Comment #47: Tyro  on  04/16  at  02:52 PM

I’m trying to fit a fact into this framework: so many fundamentalist/right-wing parents homeschool their kids.  That’s surely one way to avoid asshole kids and asshole teachers when you’re trying to learn something.

Comment #48: Hector B.  on  04/16  at  03:01 PM

The problem there is that children of fundies have asshole parents. Who are trying to make sure they DON’T learn a lot of things, eg. science.

However, this kind of thing certainly could be a valid reason for sane people to homeschool.

Comment #49: Steve LaBonne  on  04/16  at  03:17 PM

Hector, it’s also a great way to make sure that your kids are always bullied, and/or are certainly taught to bully, regardless of the tone of your local school district, whether they might luck out of playing a significant role in that system (or find themselves playing the “wrong” role), etc. 

When you are in absolute control of your child 24/7, yeah, sure, if you’re a good person that means you are free to impart good frameworks to your kids with no outside negative influence.  But the other side of that coin is that if you’re a bad person, you’re equally free to impart bad frameworks to your kids with no possibility of an ameliorating influence.

Comment #50: The Opoponax  on  04/16  at  03:22 PM

I suspect that my kids are a bit protected by cyberbullying because them and all their parents are on-line and have skillz.  My husband taught computers for remedial math at the vocational school and now has a reputation for knowing more than anybody else about controlling computer systems.  He knew how to prevent random things from “just happening” and stopped kids from pulling crap they got away with with when their teacher wasn’t a superuser.  This was six years ago, but rumors persist that he can make a computer blow up through the internet.

Comment #51: Ms Kate  on  04/16  at  03:25 PM

I’m trying to fit a fact into this framework: so many fundamentalist/right-wing parents homeschool their kids.  That’s surely one way to avoid asshole kids and asshole teachers when you’re trying to learn something.

These types of homeschooling parents aren’t trying to avoid arsehole kids and arsehole teachers or even sub-standard education—they’re trying to avoid scary dark-skinned people, non-Xtians, and the eeevvvil secular humanist ideas that come along with a reality-based curriculum. If they’re in “right” neighbourhood (i.e. majority white Xtian exurban or small town), they’re just as likely to send their kids to public school—it’s cheaper, less hassle, they have more control over curricula, and if they’re lucky their kid will become an alpha male or queen bee, just like the blonde and blue-eyed Jeebus was.

Along with Steve LaBonne, though, I can see homeschooling as a legitimate alternative for those who recognise how unhealthy most public school environments are, but who can’t afford private school tuition.

Comment #52: Gracchus.  on  04/16  at  03:28 PM

If you’re a teacher who is in charge of 30+ students, and is actually trying to get them to learn a thing or two, it’s important to outsource discipline to the alpha students. If you get on the good side of one of the powerful, popular kids, then they might decide you’re “all right” and behave in your class, and keep their clique in line, which means that your class is a little more productive.

This wasn’t my experience at all.  I was a quiet, well-behaved kid who had a lot of potential.  Some of my teachers did bully me, but I think it had nothing to do with enforcing discipline or making the class easier to control.  When it comes down to it, many (maybe most) adults are as immature as middle school children.  They’re just as likely to hate ugly, awkward, shy, insecure people.  My teachers bullied me, despite knowing the problems I had at home, despite knowing that I tested very well and just needed encouragement to do the work, because they were as disgusted with me as my peers were.  My friends were much the same and suffered the same fate.

Comment #53: keshmeshi  on  04/16  at  03:29 PM

Though something was in play: being a private school, there was a small population of students, and it probably just so happened that there were few if any people with bullying personalities

I had the same experience, increased by the fact that we were all geeks of one sort or another and by the school’s explicit liberal mission. Class size at the time was limited to 100 per grade, and there’s no doubt that a private school’s ability to select its students goes a long way toward weeding out the psychopaths (though, obviously, not the entitled).

To be sure, there were popular kids, there were cliques (albeit ones based on major or intellectual pursuits), there was teasing that sometimes bordered on the cruel, and there were all sorts of outre drugs and sexual activity going on that I was only vaguely aware of. But no real systematic bullying of the kind we’re discussing here.

I suspect that school environments can be improved by finding and isolating these elements.

Agreed, except that (as noted above) the presence of those elements frequently serves the system’s hidden purposes.

Comment #54: Gracchus.  on  04/16  at  03:29 PM

I was a quiet, well-behaved kid who had a lot of potential.  Some of my teachers did bully me, but I think it had nothing to do with enforcing discipline or making the class easier to control.

The trusty system I’m talking about operates more on the school level (as opposed to the classroom level), where it’s so pervasive as to blend into the industrial green paint job on the walls. In individual classrooms, it’s not so uniform, with teachers deciding on an individual basis how to deal with bullies and entitled kids. But the fact that buying into the larger system of accomodating them or even allying with them even exists as an option is a major problem.

Comment #55: Gracchus.  on  04/16  at  03:41 PM

I haven’t the faintest doubt in the world that if my siblings hadn’t been homeschooled they’d have been bullied mercilessly. Myself, too, although I generally got along with peers, but I remember a couple of times wherein my brother would have an issue with another person in this class or another and said “Not going anymore, they’re making me miserable and the teacher doesn’t do anything/care/thinks its funny.” He stopped going and found something else he liked. Not all homeschoolers do so because they hate science or hate not being able to force kids to pray, quite a few I grew up with did so because of a conviction that the best way to educate children was to do so with one:one teaching in the most supportive environment. Does that work out for every family? No. But neither apparently did the “put them in a big group and they’ll eventually work it out.” I remember one of my peers who decided to try highschool, and almost immediately was getting into physical fights with other students over having the wrong skin color, wrong sexuality. School’s response? “She shouldn’t attract so much attention.” Didn’t keep going to public school.

Comment #56: Tenya  on  04/16  at  03:42 PM

“Yet, when a victim explodes or acts out in unacceptable ways, these same officials are shocked and indignant.”

This.  One of the biggest changes that I’ve seen in the 30 or so years since I was in grade school is that self-defence is seen by Authority as every bit as bad as unprovoked violence.  It would be—and is—hard for an adult to deal with being arrested at the same time as the person who attacked you, and adults don’t expect the world to be fair; kids do expect it to be fair and to be treated as co-guilty with the sneering thug who has tormented you can be devastating.

Comment #57: seeker6079  on  04/16  at  04:14 PM

Pondering the school’s treatment of bullies vs. victims, I recall in the wake of the Columbine massacre, schools all over the country started keeping a close eye on the weirdo outcasts, waiting for them to snap.

Comment #58: Hector B.  on  04/16  at  04:31 PM

Along with Steve LaBonne, though, I can see homeschooling as a legitimate alternative for those who recognise how unhealthy most public school environments are, but who can’t afford private school tuition.

Homeschool is an alternative for some families, but those who can’t afford private school often can not afford to quit their job or reduce/rearrange hours to homeschool their children, especially if they are single parents.  Even many 2 parent households can not afford for one parent to quit their job.

Comment #59: bananacat  on  04/16  at  04:36 PM

One of the biggest changes that I’ve seen in the 30 or so years since I was in grade school is that self-defence is seen by Authority as every bit as bad as unprovoked violence.

In other words, zero-tolerance for fighting (in self-defence or as assault), but not for bullying (which is covered by another kind of “everyone’s at fault” remedy—the kind of mediation that’s been described).

Comment #60: Gracchus.  on  04/16  at  04:36 PM

Homeschool is an alternative for some families, but those who can’t afford private school often can not afford to quit their job or reduce/rearrange hours to homeschool their children, especially if they are single parents.  Even many 2 parent households can not afford for one parent to quit their job.

Agreed. The point is, homeschooling isn’t the sole domain of Xtian fantasists and white-power wingnuts, as some progressives like to paint it. Sane people do it, too.

Comment #61: Gracchus.  on  04/16  at  04:38 PM

Reading this thread is not good for my blood pressure.  Yes, I’m still bitter.

Comment #62: NBarnes  on  04/16  at  04:43 PM

One of the biggest changes that I’ve seen in the 30 or so years since I was in grade school is that self-defence is seen by Authority as every bit as bad as unprovoked violence.

We had that policy—it doesn’t matter “who threw the first punch”—anyone caught fighting was suspended no matter who started it. In theory, this was to prevent the popular kids from picking fights and then getting all of their little cronies to declare that the other kid started it. Except that they’d start fights anyway, and the administration would just suspend the unpopular kid, because mummy and daddy of the popular kids frequently had a lot of political power with the schoolboard, too. It even got to the point where, not even fighting back because you were afraid of being suspended, you would get into trouble.

One time a group of boys surrounded me and started harassing me (what fun it was to be an early developer in middle school!) and when they had me backed up against the wall, I went through what I *thought* was the girls’ room door (to safety). Except it was the boys’ room. (Fortunately, it was empty). When I came out, I was put into detention for going into the boys’ room, and nothing was done to the boys who harassed me.

If I were a parent of a kid in middle school, I’d make sure they knew that if they got suspended for bullshit I would be pissed, but I would ask what the school’s policy was on fighting. If it was one of these zero-tolerance policies, I would tell my kid not to fight if it can be helped, but that fighting back was OK and I would support them if they got suspended for defending themselves.

Also, Hector B, I remember groaning on the inside when the “Trenchcoat mafia” reports came out in the wake of Columbine (which, of course, later turned out to be false). Up until that point there was actually a dialog going on about how bullying affects children, but the second the media had something to point to that wasn’t threatening to the established social order, they ran with it and never looked back.

Comment #63: Mighty Ponygirl  on  04/16  at  04:45 PM

I read these threads and wonder whether this is more an American bit of psychosis.  I grew up in suburban Toronto and never had any of this stuff, nor heard of it.  There were bullies, sure.  (I almost put one in hospital when he was choking me; I didn’t get into trouble, and boy would that be different today.)  But the level of malevolence is startling.  Do my fellow Canadians on the blog any comment?

Comment #64: seeker6079  on  04/16  at  05:00 PM

If I were a parent of a kid in middle school, I’d make sure they knew that if they got suspended for bullshit I would be pissed, but I would ask what the school’s policy was on fighting. If it was one of these zero-tolerance policies, I would tell my kid not to fight if it can be helped, but that fighting back was OK and I would support them if they got suspended for defending themselves.

I’m the parent of a middle schooler and a high schooler.  My policy is pretty close to this.

Two years ago, Elder Monster was assaulted at school, and was suspended for it.  We’re unconventional folk here, and he and I wear cloaks instead of coats.  He’s skinny and can’t keep warm, I’m arthritic and can’t keep warm.  Anyway, some little fucker grabbed him by his hood, and yanked down, jamming the heavy clasp into Elder Monster’s throat, cutting off his air supply.

Elder Monster, in an effort to not die, punched the kid in the head.  The whole incident was witnessed by an administrator.  Elder Monster was suspended for a day.  The instigator got three days.  Elder Monster had to go to the hospital to be checked out, and all the kid who choked him got was three days?

I didn’t think this was right, so I demanded a meeting with the administration and the other kid’s parents.  And wouldn’t you know, the other kid’s parents blamed their hellion’s behavior on what my kid was wearing.  It never would have happened if he just dressed normally, they screamed, with the administration nodding right along.  That didn’t suit me.  I had the kid brought up on charges, and sued the parents for the medical bills. 

When it was all done, I met with the administration again, Elder Monster in tow, and demanded a review of their bullshit zero tolerance policy.  They refused, claiming it was the only effective way to deal with these situations.  At which point Elder Monster was told, right in front of them, “If anyone ever lays a finger on you again, you have my permission to lay a righteous BEATDOWN on the delinquent motherfuckers.  They’ll suspend your ass, but you won’t get in trouble at home.”

The administration flew into quite the fluttery rage.  But my boy has not been hassled since.

Comment #65: MaggieB  on  04/16  at  05:48 PM

Ah, zero tolerance policies.  The worst kind of stereotyped “lazy liberalism”, kind of like “balance” in the media.  I’d have liked to see the flutter rage MaggieB describes.  Ugh.  School administrations.

Comment #66: Mandos  on  04/16  at  06:19 PM

I read these threads and wonder whether this is more an American bit of psychosis.  I grew up in suburban Toronto and never had any of this stuff, nor heard of it.  There were bullies, sure.  (I almost put one in hospital when he was choking me; I didn’t get into trouble, and boy would that be different today.) But the level of malevolence is startling.  Do my fellow Canadians on the blog any comment?

As someone born, raised, and educated in Canada, I can say that it does exist, but my parents had a Zero Tolerance Policy for annoying school administrations.  Not everyone is so lucky.  Anyway, I managed to get into a high school where there was a substantial geek population, and managed to bury myself among them.  Younger siblings had varying experiences.

Comment #67: Mandos  on  04/16  at  06:21 PM

Which HS, if I may ask, Mandos?

Comment #68: seeker6079  on  04/16  at  07:00 PM

I wouldn’t call it “lazy liberalism”, Mandos; it’s rather “lazy dogooderism”, which is apolitical: it aims to make things “better” and be “fair” by brainlessly following procedures and not getting off one’s lazy ass to find out what actually happened and produce a tailored, effective response based on principles because, you know, those things involve eeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww, work!

My kid’s in grade school now, and I’m VERY impressed with the school’s response to bullying.  A kid was recently suspended for a bullying incident where (s)he was the victim; my kid told me, I told the teacher and the teacher welcomed the info (and I wasn’t the only parent or kid to pass it along) and was already in the process of sorting the error out.

Comment #69: seeker6079  on  04/16  at  07:04 PM

I grew up in New Brunswick and bullying did go on, but it really depended on the school.  In my elementary school, I had a very good principal.  One time I, and two guys in my class, were dragged in during lunch hour and I was asked why I was fighting with them.  When she found out that it was because I was defending my younger brother, who they were picking on, she let me go with a stern warning.  And what was really funny (in retrospect) was when she turned to the other two and asked if they’d learned what happens when someone with justification goes after them.

It took me years to figure out what she’d done: she’d made it clear that if they got the crap kicked out of them by someone defending themselves, or someone defending another person, they wouldn’t be receiving a lot of sympathy and the person who was on the righteous side wouldn’t be punished as harshly, if at all.  And she also made it clear to me that this wasn’t carte blanche to play Junior Batman and run around beating up bad people.

Comment #70: KeithM  on  04/16  at  07:06 PM

My HS was not in Toronto, but it was a public HS in an urban area.

I meant “liberal” in a more classical sort of sense, not a USian political sense. smile

Comment #71: Mandos  on  04/16  at  07:08 PM

Ah, gotcha, Mandos (re liberal); I was in very suburban Toronto in a rather odd Catholic HS; more like a magnet school, even if it wasn’t officially so.

Comment #72: seeker6079  on  04/16  at  07:20 PM

I wouldn’t call it “lazy liberalism”, Mandos; it’s rather “lazy dogooderism”, which is apolitical

How about “phony neutrality,” then? Whether it’s these bogus zero-tolerance policies or the MSM’s attempts to be “fair-n-balanced,” it’s pretty much the same problem: giving equal weight to an argument that really doesn’t deserve it.

In fact, let’s boil it down even further. The term we’re looking for is “BS.”

Comment #73: Gracchus.  on  04/16  at  07:28 PM

But this all comes from the same places as the old pernicious “fair’n'balanced”/“unbiased” meme.

Reality is biased people!  There are winners and losers, aggressors and aggrieved…

Comment #74: Mandos  on  04/16  at  07:29 PM

How about “phony neutrality,” then? Whether it’s these bogus zero-tolerance policies or the MSM’s attempts to be “fair-n-balanced,” it’s pretty much the same problem: giving equal weight to an argument that really doesn’t deserve it.

In fact, let’s boil it down even further. The term we’re looking for is “BS.”

Regarding the foregoing, here is what I have to add, and what I disagree with:

Nothing.

Comment #75: seeker6079  on  04/16  at  08:15 PM

As someone so prone to “righteous beatdowns” that I had a reputation for bully disposal by high school, I feel your mama rage!

kudos to you for pressing charges, suing for damages, and staring down the ninny-minded lazy asses in your district. 

Those asshats know that you will stop at nothing - including suing their asses blue - if they can’t provide a secure environment for the kids.  As it should be.

Comment #76: Ms Kate  on  04/16  at  08:36 PM

Those asshats know that you will stop at nothing - including suing their asses blue - if they can’t provide a secure environment for the kids.  As it should be.

It’s my job to fight for them, and there ain’t a damned soul going to do it for me.

Until I moved to Germany, I had a MISERABLE high school experience.  It blew rancid donkey balls.  Geek girl, student librarian, Honors and AP classes…therefore, target.  I got my hair SET ON FIRE my sophomore year.  The guy who did it got expelled.  I got suspended, because I obviously MUST have done SOMETHING to cause it.  Then I got the shit beaten out of me and grounded for three months for getting suspended when I got home.

That’s not the kind of life I have in mind for my kids.

Comment #77: MaggieB  on  04/16  at  09:14 PM

Maggie, I don’t want my kids to do what I had to do either.  The only reason bullies left me alone - a pudgy, high achieving grade skipper who moved frequently - was that I would go completely insane when attacked and I would hurt people.  I would not remember what happened, but I would do something decisive like flip a kid who was trying to pin my arms behind my back up and over my head, breaking his arm in the process. Something like dealing out a concussion by smashing a kid’s head into the pavement after he shoved me down hard and landed on top of me and tried to pull up my shirt.  After a performance like that, bullies were about as interested in me as my cat is interested in the local fishers.

I didn’t want my kids to live like that.  The fire is, however, there and available to help me make good on that.

Comment #78: Ms Kate  on  04/16  at  11:00 PM

I’m a natural born engineer.  When I have a problem, I look for a solution.

My solution to bullying was to notice that bullies are cowards.  When somebody tried to bully me, I would simply plow into them at full speed, with the intent to do as much damage as possible.  If I couldn’t get to the bully himself, then one of his fans.  Pound heads into ground, bloody noses, tear clothes.  As I was about half the size of most of the bullies, this was embarrassing for them.  I usually got the snot beaten out of me, but I wasn’t a coward and they were.  A few episodes and I didn’t have any more problems.

Note to liberals*—If you don’t solve a problem, the people involved will come up with their own solutions.  You may not like them very much.

* Things like this are why I still occasionally use “liberal” as an epithet.  I don’t care about somebody’s “bad home environment” or “His People’s history of oppression”—I’m not going to sacrifice my life, health, or property to improve somebody’s self-esteem.  Conservatives tend to understand this; liberals don’t.

Comment #79: lightning  on  04/17  at  12:33 AM

lightning—i’m assuming that you are a dude. and as such, let me tell you that your “solution” would be absolutely fucking useless and stupid for girls.

probably for guys too. but i’m not a guy. and i’m a progressive, so i understand the importance of not talking out my ass. conservatives don’t.

Comment #80: sophiefair  on  04/17  at  02:03 AM

seeker—i live in surrey (a suburb of vancouver).

my older daughter was bullied in grade 5 by a very charismatic popular girl. she handled it well, but then there was a culminating incident where my daughter’s gym strip was flushed down the toilet.

the school counsellor was the one it got reported to, so the principal let him handle it initially. he pulled this “shake hands and talk” bullshit. my daughter told me and i hit the roof. meetings with the principal and vice-principal and the counsellor ensued. he tried to bully my daughter in front of me into saying that she was not uncomfortable with the bullshit he made her do (“think of 5 good things about each other…” etc.) she didn’t cave, because she knew that i had her back no matter what.

in the end, i was not happy that the bully was not suspended, but i knew that the principal and vice-principal agreed with me, and were watching the situation very closely for the rest of the year. (i should mention that my mother teaches at my kids’ school, so this means that i am very familiar with the teachers and administration of the school—the counsellor was new). at any rate, to a certain degree, the admin can’t criticise a colleague in front of a parent, but things were said, off the record and between the lines, to make it clear that this was not how the school wanted to handle bullying. and my girl finished by feeling heard, respected and empowered by her mama and the admin.

she won “student of the year” that year and is now one of the most popular, liked and respected kids in her grade. the bully moved at the end of the year. the rest of m.‘s peer group seem to look out for each other and stomp on any attempted bullying pretty quick. oh, and the counsellor also left the school at the end of the year—he didn’t like the principal. i think he didn’t enjoy having a woman boss.

Comment #81: sophiefair  on  04/17  at  02:14 AM

My solution to bullying was to notice that bullies are cowards.  When somebody tried to bully me, I would simply plow into them at full speed, with the intent to do as much damage as possible.

I sort of grasped that after the fact. I was only bullied once, in 3rd grade, and it ended when I got fed up, lost it, and this skinny geeky conflict-averse kid somehow ended up pinning the terrified bully to the floor, with my fist poised to drive into his nose. He and his toadies never tried anything after that, and I’m convinced that after that day I instinctively started carrying myself in such a way (no swagger, no bluster, but something) that no-one, across several schools and several cities, ever bullied me again.

Things like this are why I still occasionally use “liberal” as an epithet.

Read this Steve Gilliard essay—it’ll put you off the bad habit of equating liberals with wimps.

Comment #82: Gracchus.  on  04/17  at  09:47 AM

I’m a natural born engineer.  When I have a problem, I look for a solution.

Well whoop-dee-do!  I’m also an engineer and I’m a good one because I take all factors into account.  Your “solution” of beating up the bullies would land most people in detention or worse even if the bully started it, as you should have seen in the previous comments.  And if you start the fight, you are no better than bullies no matter how much you claim superiority.  You even mentioned that you liked embarrassing them.  You also seem to think that beating them proves you have more courage than they do, but it only proves that you are better at fighting.  It almost seems like you were insecure and needed to prove your manliness.

Solving violence with violence is no solution.  The boy who committed suicide also “solved” his problem, as he will never be bullied again.  Also, telling victims to just stand up for themselves won’t work in most cases where the bullies are older, bigger, or working in groups.  It could even be life-threatening.  You also seem to be completely unaware of the impact of verbal bullying.

I’m not going to sacrifice my life, health, or property to improve somebody’s self-esteem.  Conservatives tend to understand this; liberals don’t.

No one is asking anyone to sacrifice their life, health, or property.  Bullies want to tear down other people’s self-esteem. Forcing them to stop bullying does not sacrifice their life, health, or property.  Also, no one is asking victims to sacrifice life, health, or property to help the bully’s self-esteem.  No one is saying that victims should continue to be bullied to help the self-esteem of the bully.  I don’t see how this particular point is relevant to the topic, or even true.

Comment #83: bananacat  on  04/17  at  10:40 AM

catgirl—he can’t read your reply, silly… his massive, manly cock is in the way! BEAT DOWN! BOO YA!

Comment #84: Mighty Ponygirl  on  04/17  at  10:49 AM

You also seem to think that beating them proves you have more courage than they do, but it only proves that you are better at fighting.

His picture reminds us that the victim here played (tackle) football. Football players of whatever age are not notably wimpy. I suspect this churchgoing, walk-the-talk guy could easily have beaten up his tormentors, but probably lived by the Christian “turn the other cheek” bullshit.

Comment #85: Hector B.  on  04/17  at  11:45 AM

My solution to bullying was to notice that bullies are cowards.

Bullies aren’t cowards and they don’t have low self esteem. It is, to a degree, the reason they’re bullies: they have an inflated view of themselves and aren’t afraid of (or don’t think about) the consequences of their actions. That’s why they’re bullies.

I’m a natural born engineer.  When I have a problem, I look for a solution.

As an engineer, I can say from the standpoint of experience that usually this solution is widely ignorant of how things operate outside of your immediate circumstances and almost invariably don’t take things like human beings into account.* As well as the fact that they’re also a group who seems to have an inflated view of their own self-worth.

*This is why I occasionally use “engineer” as an epithet.

Comment #86: Tyro  on  04/17  at  11:58 AM

Solving violence with violence is no solution.

While I respect the position that statement comes from, I have to point out that it is a bit naive: sometimes violence is inevitable and does provide the solution, at least in the short term.  It should be a last resort, but having the position that violence is never justified and you’d never engage in it might make you feel morally superior but it makes you something else as well: a target.

Comment #87: KeithM  on  04/17  at  12:27 PM

Keith, I wasn’t saying that no one should ever be violent.  Self-defense is one thing, but what lightning did was not self-defense.  Bullying bullies does not solve the problem; it only makes everyone become a bully.

Even when people do use self-defense in the case of bullies (which is certainly justifiable), it still doesn’t solve the bigger problem of bullying, and probably won’t even stop that particular bully from doing it again.  It works in the short term, and people should defend themselves, but the problem is still there and needs to be dealt with further after the victim is physically safe.

Comment #88: bananacat  on  04/17  at  12:40 PM

Also, if you beat up a bully, all that bully learns is not to pick a fight with YOU. It doesn’t mean they’ve learned their lesson, it just means that they’re going to pick more helpless targets in the future.

Comment #89: Mighty Ponygirl  on  04/17  at  12:58 PM

Also, if you beat up a bully, all that bully learns is not to pick a fight with YOU. It doesn’t mean they’ve learned their lesson

This is one of those cases where it’s rational for an individual to focus on what he can control, rather than what he can’t. I can’t guarantee that a school administration is going to put together a comprehensive solution to bullying. I can encourage a bullied individual to defend himself or herself. No one is saying that “defending oneself is the only and comprehensive answer.” Just pointing out that it helps.

Comment #90: Tyro  on  04/17  at  01:06 PM

Bullies aren’t cowards and they don’t have low self esteem. It is, to a degree, the reason they’re bullies: they have an inflated view of themselves and aren’t afraid of (or don’t think about) the consequences of their actions. That’s why they’re bullies.

We call adult bullies “psychopaths,” because they do have inflated (or at least over-compensatory) views of themselves and enjoy making others miserable. But the smart ones are generally also cowardly ones, because they always choose the superficially easy target. Fight back and win once (and only once), and that type of bully tends to move on. Join forces with other bullied kids, and the bully has himself a problem.

Of course, there are also bullies who have impulse control (crazies) issues and ones who are just plain stupid (usually in conjunction with low self esteem), but the former are (thankfully) thin on the ground and the latter are usually toadies who take their cues from smarter/crazier bullies.

Comment #91: Gracchus.  on  04/17  at  01:06 PM

I reacted violently once or twice in school.  It might have stopped the bullying RIGHT THEN, but it didn’t stop the violence all the time.

That’s a joke solution to stopping bullying.

Comment #92: Antigone  on  04/17  at  01:42 PM

Worst of all, I remember taunting other kids and accusing them of being gay.  I don’t remember doing it to kids I actually thought were gay, just assholes who I thought needed to be brought down.  But that still didn’t make it right.

Same here, but we didn’t learn it in a vacuum.  We got those ideas from the adults in our lives, whether in our families or public figures.  I was in elementary school during Anita Bryant’s anti-gay heyday and her views were considered perfectly legitimate by a lot of people.

Comment #93: DonnaDiva  on  04/17  at  04:44 PM

Bullies aren’t cowards and they don’t have low self esteem. It is, to a degree, the reason they’re bullies: they have an inflated view of themselves and aren’t afraid of (or don’t think about) the consequences of their actions. That’s why they’re bullies.

Thank you.  I am so tired of the excuse-making people do for sociopathic behavior.  I agree with you that most bullies have an inflated view of themselves, and even if they didn’t, so what?  Since when does low self-esteem give you a free pass to be an abusive dick to others?  I also agree that most of them don’t care about the consequences of their actions.  Why?  Because there usually are no consequences!

Comment #94: DonnaDiva  on  04/17  at  04:48 PM

Fight back and win once (and only once), and that type of bully tends to move on. Join forces with other bullied kids, and the bully has himself a problem.

I don’t doubt that’s true but you are describing the Free Market response to bullying.  If fighting back is simply not an option due to power differentials or there aren’t a band of other bullied kids to join together, you are still screwed.  Bullying will not stop, whether on the schoolyard or in the work place, until it becomes completely morally and legally unacceptable and there are painful consequences to those who do it.  We may not ever see that day, due to deeply entrenched memes about it, some of which are unfortunately on display on this thread.

Comment #95: DonnaDiva  on  04/17  at  04:53 PM

In my long experience with bullies - both in school and, unsurprisingly, as an adult, they tend to paradoxically have both a nagging subconcious doubt about their own worth, coupled with a concious inflated sense of themselves. And there are generally no consequences; when they face consequences (i.e., for domestic assult), they scale back their bullying to more “acceptable” levels (verbal abuse). (Unless they’re the above-mentioned crazies.) They learn not to get into trouble, rather than not to bully.

I don’t know why any of this should ever be a justification, since bullying requires a lack of empathy and is therefore on the sociopathic spectrum. Although, as it has been pointed out, that’s classically manly behavior. heh.

Comment #96: madinscriber  on  04/17  at  05:07 PM

Ah, where to start?

sophiefair—Yeah, I’m the proud possessor of a defective X chromosome.  BFD.  Girls’ bullying is as bad or worse than boys’, and is much less physical and much more subtle.  I have no basis to talk about it.

Catgirl—“I’m also an engineer and I’m a good one because I take all factors into account”  No you don’t.  You can’t, because you *don’t know* all the factors. Welcome to the Real World. Magic words—“Safety factor”.

And where did I say I “beat up” bullies?  Generally, I got the snot beaten out of me.  I *fought* them.  Remember—cowards.

“No one is asking anyone to sacrifice their life, health, or property” You just did.  I’m supposed to watch them stomp my lunch into the ground because of some abstract concern with their mental health?

Mighty Ponygirl—No, I just have one of these odd little things called “a life”. Interferes with blogging something fierce at times.

Tiro—I said it was *a* solution.  I didn’t say you’d like it.

catgirl—“but what lightning did was not self-defense”  Yup.  If I do something, it’s not “self defense”, by definition.  If somebody else does something to me, “I’m sure they had a good reason”.  I’ve had my nose rubbed in that attitude my whole life.  I ain’t taking it.  Whether it’s “self defense” or not, it works.

Gracchus—“Join forces with other bullied kids, and the bully has himself a problem. ”  This is the classic solution.  Anthropologists call them “adolescent male initiatory societies”.  School admins call them “gangs”.


Coupla general comments:

* This was an anecdote, not a position paper.  I don’t have any Great General Solutions.

* Where do the get these school admins?  Clone vats on Mars?  Perhaps they’ve all had their childhoods surgically removed?

* When I was a kid, “faggot” was a definite “fighting word”.  Somebody calls you a faggot, you fight or risk losing *everybody*‘s respect.  None of us had the foggiest idea what it meant.

* In general, folks, lose the psychobabble until you know what it means.

Comment #97: lightning  on  04/17  at  09:48 PM

Lighting, you fail at reading comprehension.

Comment #98: Antigone  on  04/17  at  11:20 PM

I’m pretty sure that lightning is a bully and doesn’t realize it.  He provoked fights to prove that he has more courage (i.e. - he’s more manly).  The fights were obviously a solution to his inscure feelings, as they failed to stop the bullying, which is what he claims he was solving.  Then he tried to act like he did the smart “engineer solution”.  He’s the reason that some “real” scientists look down on engineers.

And where did I say I “beat up” bullies?  Generally, I got the snot beaten out of me.  I *fought* them.  Remember—cowards.

You provoked the fight, you intended to beat them up.  That you ended up being beaten up yourself only proves that you didn’t think things through, the way an engineer should.  Your great engineer “solution” clearly wasn’t a good solution at all if you not only failed to stop the bullying, but you got yourself hurt in the process.  The fact that this happened more than once shows that it didn’t solve the problem at all.  Also, if you go at someone with the intention to bash their head in the ground, that could easily kill them, and it’s certainly illegal.  An adult who did that should be in jail.

So, your engineer solution was to provoke a fight for the sole purpose of embarrassing people that had embarrassed you, so that you could feel big about your “courage”.

You didn’t take into account:
-your own safety
-the safety of others
-the possible punishments you could have received from both the school and the local police
-the fact that this hadn’t stopped the bullying the first time it happened, yet you continued to do it

If you solve problems at work the way you solved this bully problem, then I’m amazed that you can manage to keep a job.  If I ignored so many factors in a problem at work and my solution failed to accomplish what it’s supposed to, I would expect to be fired rather than bragging about my idea.

On a side note:

* When I was a kid, “faggot” was a definite “fighting word”.  Somebody calls you a faggot, you fight or risk losing *everybody*’s respect.  None of us had the foggiest idea what it meant.

Apparently it’s better to risk your own life or someone else’s than for people to think you’re not manly enough.  It seems really irrational to fight over a word that you don’t even know the meaning of, and it’s even weirder that you seem to be proud of it.  I’m sure that it hurts you to hear this coming from a girl, so now you’ll have to go provoke a fight to feel better about yourself.

Comment #99: bananacat  on  04/18  at  12:37 AM

lightning noted:

“Gracchus—“Join forces with other bullied kids, and the bully has himself a problem. “ This is the classic solution.  Anthropologists call them “adolescent male initiatory societies”.  School admins call them “gangs”.

He has a point, especially given that a group of nice kinds banding together for self-defence is a far easier target for school administration than a group of violent hoodlums who just happen to be under 18.  In the late 1990s in suburban Toronto exactly this problem came up.  A vicious youth gang was pounding the tar out of whoever it felt like, but since the gang was mostly black kids the school admin was terrified of looking racist by confronting the problem and very reluctant to call in the police.  One kid who’d been beaten up more than once raised the problem online, asking other kids to band together in self-protection.  He promptly found himself suspended, tagged as a racist and the school had no problem calling in the cops on him.  Their nasty and rapid response against him had far less to do with race than profound moral cowardice and a bit of projection and bullying on their part, too; they were frightened of the youth gang and unwilling to do something about it, so when an easy target came along they could vent their shame whilst kidding themselves that they Were Doing Something!!!

catgirl, I think that you are so annoyed at lightning that you’re missing one point and demonstrating another.  The one that you’re missing is that sometimes people can, do—and should—fight back because there is no practical way out of it.  The one that you’re demonstrating is the classic hand-wringing response model, finger-wagging at a victim.  It’s not the first time we’ve seen it ...
....http://seeker6079.blogspot.com/2007/10/for-many-being-prig-to-your-friends-is.html
and it won’t be the last.

Look, we’d all love a better world where this sort of thing doesn’t happen, where school administrators deal with bullies properly, (etc.).  But, fact is, some kids have to face these things on their own because nobody can or will help them.  If the only way that they can protect themselves is physical violence because everybody else figures that they can ignore the social contract then there’s nothing to be gained by calling them bullies.

Comment #100: seeker6079  on  04/18  at  09:53 AM

catgirl—Thought experiment.  In Junior High, somebody notices that if they sneak up behind you and poke you in the short ribs, you jump and make a cute little squeaky noise.  Complaints to The Authorities result in a lecture on how it’s harmless and you should just ignore it.  Pretty soon it seems like *everybody* is poking you in the ribs.  What do you do?

We’ll compare your answer with my wife’s, for whom this wasn’t a thought experiment.  Her solution worked.

Comment #101: lightning  on  04/18  at  04:04 PM

Pre-Columbine, what kind of worked for me was a flavour of directed terrorism. If I was ganged up on, I remembered—not just the instigator, but the others…all would get their due, when they least expected it. If someone was in my class, I might introduce them to a desk—completely out of the blue.

It gave me the reputation of being somewhat of a psychopath. Whenever sent to the principal, I told them exactly why I did what I did, and often got suspended, but for some reason, the ritzy private school never expelled me; they didn’t expel a friend who attended fried on acid every day either, and I brought up the school’s test scores considerably, so I wasn’t terribly concerned.

Again, this was pre-Columbine, and I’m more or less realizing a LOT of my problems stem more from an experimental school I went to at an early age, which lumped children by ability. This sounds GREAT in the Ivory Tower, but in effect groups younger, smart children with older delinquents. I still think of myself as the small guy, even though I’m 5’10 and 260 lbs.

Comment #102: Mark Temporis  on  04/19  at  03:48 PM
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