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Next entry: Actually, science really doesn’t say that women who have sex are worthless Previous entry: A third way to think about fast food

The appeal of fast food is about more than “fast”

FoodHealth Care

People in the thread below---I suppose this was inevitable---were reverting back to the liberal argument that fast food's popularity is mainly a labor issue, as in people work too hard and resort to fast food (against their will, no doubt!) because they have no options. This argument is juiced up by anecdotal evidence of this one woman you knew once who really did save an hour a day eating fast food or that college aged service worker who could only eat a burger during lunch.  These arguments bother me for a couple of reasons. The first is they are throw-your-hands-in-the-air-and-give-up arguments. There's a whiff of making excuses for fast food's grip on America in lieu of trying to understand it so that solutions become evident.  Since we all agree---right?---that policy should be aimed at improving the nutrition of all our citizens (not just those who can afford it), we can agree---right?---that merely biting on the corners of the problem by getting rid of food desserts and perhaps even having government programs to make sure there are workable kitchens in every home aren't enough.  These are good things and will help people who are the percentage of fast food customers who are more desperate than really into the food.  

But the problem is that if the fast food industry's marketing strategy was to sell only to people with no other options, they would go bankrupt.  Kit-Kat in comments put it well:

Look, I believe people when they explain why it is they eat fast food, or imagining why someone else might prefer fast food. I don’t think that everyone who eats out is a lazy moron. But I think that we can over-excuse. There are some people for whom cooking at home is not a possibility. But all the fast food in the country is not being eaten by service industry workers who get off work at midnight and lack a functioning kitchen. A lot of it is being eaten by people who *do* have the time to cook at home and have access to a Safeway. Understanding why they choose not to is an important part of addressing the issue.

I'll point out that quite literally, if speed were the only consideration in buying fast food, most of it would not be so bad for you.  (In fact, there's only whole chain that has dedicated part of its menu to catering to people who want something fast that isn't going to wreck them---Subway. But even then, most of their menu is crap.)  The fast food industry would like us to believe that they can't help but serve mounds of grease and sugar and that this aspect of their business is unchangeable, but the reality is they sell mounds of grease and sugar because they know that's how you get more customers.  We either deal with that problem, or we continue to pretend it's not there, which is basically giving up and deciding that we accept escalating rates of diabetes and heart disease. 

I'll reiterate my points: a comprehensive understanding of why fast food sells so well involves accepting that people eat to relieve boredom and people eat to relieve stress, and fast food is perfectly pitched to achieve these ends. 

I will also point out something I pointed out in comments.  People who ride the extreme "fast food only sells because it's easy" argument tend to oversell how hard it is to cook and undersell what a pain in the ass it is to go to McDonald's. I used to eat out at fast food places (albeit, locally owned ones based in Austin that emphasized healthier choices than the major chains---but they will never get any bigger than they are because of this choice) a lot more because I bought the whole line about how eating out is easier. But gradually it dawned on me that it really wasn't.  The time spent getting dressed, driving, waiting to order, waiting for food, and driving home would have been more than enough time to cook something simple. So I started cooking more.  Which, in turn, turned on my no-doubt genetic predisposition to love cooking (or wevs, both my parents cooked at home a lot when I was a kid, so I think I was lucky to have those role models), and that's why I'm a more elaborate cook ofttimes than you need to be.  But not always. I'm the queen of the stir fry when I have work to get done. (Which in turn causes people to yell at me in comments on CSA posts for being a boring cook.  Oh irony, since the series was started in part to encourage people to talk more about simple, everyday cooking. It's worth wondering if this pressure to put out a 3-course meal every meal isn't what intimidates a lot of people out of cooking.) 

One thing that I really do think is overlooked at lot---again, because it requires acknowledging the darker aspects of daily life we prefer aren't a problem---is the whine factor, aka the emotional labor of getting the members of your family who are unashamed about their preferences for grease and sugar to sit down and eat a healthy meal without whining about it.  I got some emails from people complaining that Bittman overlooks how cooking is women's work, and I think that's somewhat unfair, for two reasons: 1) Bittman is one of the biggest voices out there encouraging people to learn how to cook 20-minute meals and if you actually listen to what he's saying, you can reduce your "women's work" workload by a lot 2) I really do think he imagines a more egalitarian distribution of work than most households enjoy.  The latter is a bit of blindness---from what I understand, he does most of his family's cooking, so he's not seeing that most men don't help much, if at all. (And this is a complex problem. A lot of women, and I include myself in this category, are so incredibly possessive of the kitchen that men can't help if they want to.) But what he's absolutely overlooking in his claims that cooking and eating are fun, communal activities is that this is only true if your whole family is on board. I think that's big time male privilege. It's much easier if you're a man who's cooking to get everyone to be supportive of your work. But women tend to have their work taken for granted, and in real world terms, that means the whine factor. 

I grew up in an extended family of people who love cooking. Even my dad cooked all the time.  And yet, we still ate plenty of shitty fast food, as did my relatives. The reason isn't that they were too overworked to cook, per se, but some times they were too overworked to tolerate us kids pulling faces and saying, "Not THAT again, we ate that LAST month." The most brilliant aspect of fast food is it's basically whine-proof---it hits you on the "comfort food" level, and everyone is going to eat it and like it. We eat to feel pleasure. McDonald's is the masturbation of food.  For the same reason someone might find that they increasingly prefer to masturbate than have partner sex---the latter takes coordination, everyone has to be on the same page, it's a lot of emotional work---someone might start making more and more of their diet fast food. 

If fast food were only about speed, then 7-11 would put Burger King and McDonald's out of business. We have to think of the problem as more complex than that, even if doing so brings up uncomfortable solutions, like demanding a redistribution of agricultural subsidies and taxing fast food so that it's not so much a cheap pleasure as it used to be.  

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 09:13 AM • (207) Comments

North of 40 years of age, you just can’t eat anything and get away with it - even if you are a man, who, like me, can lose weight pretty easily. I spent a week in WYO eating salads from a garden and game meat and lost 10lbs - even though I ate till I felt stuffed every night.

I recently came to realize that I was eating out at lunch just to get away from the office. If you eat at your desk, it’s inevitably going to lead to you doing a bunch of tasks in the non-paid hour designated as lunchtime.

In that sense the ‘stress relief’ derived from an hour of ‘me’ time.

I think we also need to bring in the concept of straight up addiction to these foods which, quite literally, alter your mood. The sugar drink plus meat fat combination is almost like a speedball, and there is really no debating the science on this.

Why can we look at our prison system and say: “We lock up 10% of the population - most of them because of evil evil evil evil STREET DRUGS. We’re saving the children by being totalitarian puritans.”

But then we street drug puritans can indulge an addiction that ruins the bodies of children far more than cannabis, or maybe even cocaine would.

Comment #1: KingElvis  on  09/28  at  10:17 AM

The time spent getting dressed, driving, waiting to order, waiting for food, and driving home would have been more than enough time to cook something simple.

You don’t drive to a job miles and miles away like a lot of people do. 

For them, they can either go to the store which involves getting out of the car, going in the store, finding the things they need, lining up to buy them, getting back out to the car and going home to then have to fix the food they want, or just driving up to Mickey D’s on the way home, yelling into a speaker, getting a bag of food and handing it to the cavorting young and drooling old.

Yes, it’s more attractive to those people because of the fat and sugar all over it.  I think you really hit the nail on the head by calling McDonald’s the masturbation of food, because it is however you want it, right now, no compromises, no having to do anything someone else wants to do.

Yes, we should find a way around the fat and sugar filled food.  The answer is not only learning to cook, the answer is not having no fast food, but having fast food that is actually good.

My boss travels a lot and she is sick of eating out because most restaurant food, no matter the speed or price point, is crap.  Salty, fatty, sugary, no good crap.  When I was traveling more I felt the same and stocked the hotel room with fruit and other decent stuff.  It shouldn’t be so hard to find a good place.

Comment #2: oldfeminist  on  09/28  at  10:19 AM

If fast food were only about speed, then 7-11 would put Burger King and McDonald’s out of business.

They already handily compete.  The only thing they are missing is a drive-thru.

Royal Farms does well, too, especially in areas where there’s more walk-up.  The RF nearest me does a land-office business with their greasy salty chicken.  Add in a 2-liter of Coke, Krispy Kremes, a Redbox rental or a porn mag and you’ve got your evening right there.

Comment #3: oldfeminist  on  09/28  at  10:25 AM

Some of it is less speed than it is convenience.  For me, there are no fast food places between work and home that are not significantly out of the way, so if I know I have to bring home food, I’ll just stop at the local grocery store.  For me, that normally means sandwich stuff, which takes the absolutely major effort of putting the sandwich innards on bread, but it’s really as much effort as I am willing to expend after an eleven hour day.  It also means I can use paper plates, and dirty no utensils, so I haven’t created a mess in feeding myself.

If there was a fast food place on the way home—and now that I think of it, there is a Subway, but I don’t buy from there often—I’d probably eat more fast food.

Comment #4: Dana  on  09/28  at  10:33 AM

Stopping at Taco Bell on the way home adds 5 minutes max to my drive home. Cooking dinner once I get home takes whatever time it takes to cook, maybe get frustrated that I don’t have the stuff I thought I had, maybe run to the grocery store to get it, maybe make do without, etc. But it’s non-zero time, certainly more than 5 minutes, from getting home to eating food.

That’s not to say I don’t feel like shit after I stop by Taco Bell on my way home. I certainly do. But if I left the house at 7 am and am not going to be getting home until 10 pm, the last thing I want to do once I get there is to have to cook for any amount of time.

Comment #5: Fargus  on  09/28  at  11:05 AM

I eat way less fast food than I did when I was younger. Then it was about me being a lazy college student, then a lazy young adult. Now (some 20 years later) the only time I really eat any fast food is if I’m out running errands and need to eat something “right quick” (that’s usually about once or twice a month). When I do go on my fast food jaunts, I usually endup at an In-N-Out Burger or an “asian” food type place because the food is fresher than other places.

I feel like I’m lucky that I have learned to prepare and cook meals for myself and that when I got married, that it was something my wife and I enjoyed doing together and still do. It has helped me stay healthy into middle age (w/exercise of course).

Comment #6: Mark  on  09/28  at  11:06 AM

Just to add to the previous comment, part of my issue is that I live by myself and have gotten away from my habits of a couple of years ago. I used to prepare a big meal on Sunday and then package it into leftovers to eat all week. Boom. Automatic portion control, instant food when I get home, etc. So I know that a good deal of it is behavior that I could fix given enough foresight and willpower.

Comment #7: Fargus  on  09/28  at  11:16 AM

Old, you act like I never have. Before I became a writer, I commuted to work, usually shot 30 minutes each way, past many fast food places. Cooking was still easier, even if I had to stop at the store. Fast food places require interaction with lots of noisy people. They’re endured, not enjoyed. Cooking is quieter. Like I said, if you forward bullshit arguments, you’re more interested in scoring points than making change.

Comment #8: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/28  at  11:20 AM

Seems to me that trying to tackle the widespread stress and depression epidemic might be a much better use of our time and energy.

Comment #9: Karmakin  on  09/28  at  11:20 AM

Amanda you really haven’t spoken about the cleaning part of cooking.  Some nights the thought of cleaning dirty dishes and greasy pans makes me just run out a get something that when I’m finished I can fold up and throw away.  But I’m a lazy 40 year old single guy so maybe I’m not that representative.  But maybe that’s the issue, I should learn how to clean, or maybe cooking shows should have a segment at the end showing how you clean up.  I’m rambling.  But it’s the cleaning part that either makes or breaks the deal for me.
Ken

Comment #10: kma815  on  09/28  at  11:21 AM

I hate my own cooking, quite honestly. I hate cooking in general. I find it incredibly stressful, bewildering, and a time suck that I resent.

I don’t eat a lot of fast food because you’re right, it is expensive and doesn’t save that much time (though you forgot about saved cleanup time).  I do eat a lot of rice plus a canned vegetable, or honestly, a bowl of cereal or instant oatmeal many nights, because it beats actual cooking. 

But if I had lots of money, I’d either eat out at a good restaurant every night or hire a cook.

Comment #11: emjaybee  on  09/28  at  11:26 AM

And even now, if I need food fast, I don’t stop at fast food joints.  They take waaaaaay too long. I think people way underestimate how long it takes to sit in a drive-through.  Inside can be faster—-the reason they have drive-throughs is fast food joints are such miserable experiences inside—-but it’s even louder and more obnoxious.

If I have to eat fast, I eat at 7-11. Full stop. Fast food isn’t worth it—-takes WAY too long.

Karm, in part. But it’s not either/or. We can also make relying on fast food as a comfort food thing less attractive.  Right now, people mainly avoid it because they personally prioritize their health and/or the sensual pleasures of eating food that’s more complex than shitty comfort food.  But without those motivations, there’s no reason not to eat fast food all the time.

Comment #12: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/28  at  11:26 AM

kma, because that assumes that “cooking” means a 3 course meal with tons and tons of dishes. If you insist on characterizing cooking that way, then you’re forwarding a bullshit excuse argument instead of a meaningful analysis. Cooking can be a one-dish thing.  I often make more dishes making coffee than I do with a quick meal.

Comment #13: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/28  at  11:27 AM

On the “whine factor”: this is also something that’s under people’s control (at least their reaction to it).  I’m sure that my brother and I whined sometimes about food, but my mom didn’t care.  If we didn’t want to eat what was being served, we were free to make ourselves a sandwich or go hungry, but while she certainly took people’s preferences into account when planning meals, she did not cook to order.  The result was that we basically stopped whining about food, because it didn’t do the slightest bit of good. 

So while I’m sympathetic to the fact that it can be annoying to have your kids (and possibly your spouse) complaining about the food you serve, your response to it does not have to be capitulation to fast food.  You’re not forced to eat fast food because you have a whiny family.  Sometimes you might choose to because you’re just really tired, but next time you can choose not to.  Or you can choose to eat fast food once a week, to give yourself a break, but it’s still less than the three or four times a week you were eating it before.  You can choose to eat at Chipotle or Subway rather than McDonald’s or the greasy fried-chicken place.  You can pick up fast food but pair it with a homemade salad.  You can learn to make homemade versions of fast-food meals. (I make a mean Sausage McMuffin and delicious panko-coated chicken nuggets.)

I think that recognizing that it is a choice is important, and it’s not a choice that you make once and then are stuck with your decision.  You can try different ways of dealing with the problem to find the one(s) that work best for you.  Fast food is not a juggernaut.

Comment #14: Kit-Kat  on  09/28  at  11:44 AM

And I think you’re oversimplifying. As you yourself pointed out, people complain when you write about eating too many stir frys. Who wants to eat a one-dish meal every single day? Who isn’t going to get sick of that? And cooking and cleaning up for yourself or one other adult is a lot easier than cooking for a family and trying to deal with everybody’s preferences and everybody’s schedules and opening the pantry to discover that somebody else already ate all of the ingredients you thought you had.

The fact is, cooking takes mental energy, and that’s what people don’t want to expend on eating when there are so many other options around. I’m not sure what can really change that. The horse has left the barn; people are not going to willingly go back to the way things used to be. Maybe we can force fast food places to provide healthier options, but if people don’t take them, well then, they don’t and there isn’t much that food writers can do about it.

Comment #15: sophronia  on  09/28  at  11:44 AM

But washing up dishes isn’t a manly challenge, Amanda, and cleaning up a rice cooker, 2 plates, utensils and pot used to cook in(as is often the case with my noble spouse and I after a meal) is sooooooo time-consuming.

Comment #16: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/28  at  11:46 AM

I hate my own cooking, quite honestly. I hate cooking in general. I find it incredibly stressful, bewildering, and a time suck that I resent.

Yup. The shopping part, the cooking part, and the cleaning part, all pure suck. For a result that i generally don’t even find minimally satisfying. If I am eating at home, I mostly wrap chickpeas and cucumbers and some kind of green in a tortilla and call it a day. I’d get more creative with my veg but (for reasons explained in previous thread) my area no longer seems to have any edible fresh produce beyond cucumbers. (And no, it’s not seasonal—all summer everything I bought rotted immediately, or nearly so.)

 

Comment #17: Well, what?  on  09/28  at  11:48 AM

Seems to me that trying to tackle the widespread stress and depression epidemic might be a much better use of our time and energy.

Yup. Last night I ate a pizza supper (for non-Scots, this is a deep fried pizza - and I don’t mean a calzone, I mean pizza - served with “chips”, which are deep fried pieces of potato vaguely similar to but not really anything like what you’d call “fries”, all smothered in “sauce”, which defies description) simply because I was feeling down and craving a big fuck-off slab of carbs and saturated fat.

I can cook and eat just fine when I’m not going to work every day, but after spending a soul-crushing day at the office, I just want to drink and smoke dope in front of the TV until I pass out. I’m actually quite good at cooking when I can be bothered - it’s the “being bothered” bit that’s the issue.

Comment #18: Dunc  on  09/28  at  11:51 AM

“McDonald’s is the masturbation of food.”  Brilliant!
Fast food is going to exist in those walkable communities I read so much about at Eschaton, and then it really will be fast when you don’t have to drive to it.  Personally, I live in a pretty residential area, but it only takes me 5 minutes to walk to an adjacent Taco Bell and 7/11 (I timed it because there’s a Redbox there).  Ah, there it is, oldfeminist!

Comment #19: ganews_  on  09/28  at  11:53 AM

Come on Amanda, unless you’ve only eaten at completely incompetently run fast food joints you’re really overselling how long it takes to get food from one.

Most of the drive-throughs I’ve eaten at are quite fast at serving food especially during peak business times (lunch/dinner).

Comment #20: dead souls  on  09/28  at  11:54 AM

I apologize, I put my comment a bit on the…strained side, lets just say. I actually think a lot of things CAN and should be done about this. For example, changing agriculture subsidies so healthy food is actually cheaper than unhealthy food, when eating out.

It’s just that if it’s true that people are self-medicating (and I think that they are), I don’t think it’s…proper to remove said medication without at least trying to address the reasons why they are doing that in the first place.

Comment #21: Karmakin  on  09/28  at  11:57 AM

There’s a lot of hidden labor involved in cooking meals at home.

1. You have to come up with something to cook. This requires decision-making. What do you and people in your household like to eat? What do they hate? What’s the weather like (you don’t want to make a heavy, hot dish when it’s 100º F outside)? Any dietary restrictions? How long will this recipe take to prepare? What do you already have ingredients for? When you unpack this, it’s a lot of mental work. You can make this easier by learning a few “go-to” meals, but that doesn’t happen immediately.
2. You have to keep track of what ingredients you do and don’t have. This requires a constant running mental inventory of the fridge and pantry.
3. You have to go out grocery shopping for the stuff you don’t already have.
4. You have to do the actual cooking part, which doesn’t have to take that long.
5. You have to wash the pots, pans, dishes, and clean the kitchen.

You can front-load most of this work by making a weekly menu and grocery shopping on the weekend, but it’s still work.

Fast food happens when you don’t do this work. Sometimes it’s because you actually can’t (food deserts, etc.). More often, I think, it’s because you’re already mentally and emotionally stressed out, so you get a double whammy: fast food means you don’t have to think about food, you have to add minimal time between leaving work and eating, and it acts on your brain almost like a drug.

At my house, my husband and I trade days cooking. But if I don’t do the work of menu planning on Saturday, and ask him what he plans to make for the week (forcing him to think about it in advance), and do the grocery shopping on Sunday—then we’re both completely unprepared to cook at home. On a good day when it’s my night, I’ll drop by a grocery store on their way home from work and grab a few fresh ingredients to prepare a quick dish. On a less good day for me or a regular day for him, we’ll drop by the grocery store and grab a frozen pizza or a frozen meal to fix quickly—takes the same amount of time as cooking something from scratch, but requires zero thought. On a stressful/busy day, we’ll come home and order delivery pizza. (We don’t eat McDonald’s/BK type fast food anymore, but delivery pizza serves the same purpose.)

He also doesn’t cook anything that has more than three steps, which means even when he does cook, it’s only about one step removed from a frozen dinner anyway. When it’s “boil spaghetti, brown ground beef, open jar of spaghetti sauce,” what justifies the extra effort over just buying a package of frozen spaghetti in meat sauce?

This is one of the few things I’m unhappy about with him. I love to cook as a communal, creative activity. When my closest female friends and I visit each other, we enjoy coming up with interesting things to cook together. But it’s less fun when the responsibility is all on me.

The one thing I don’t have to deal with is the whine factor. He’s not a picky eater at all. He’s an adventurous eater. Just not an adventurous cook.

Comment #22: snowmentality  on  09/28  at  12:00 PM

Also, I don’t understand why the emphasis is on eating at home almost exclusively. As Oldfeminist mentioned above, what is wrong with encouraging fast-food options that are healthier and fresher than McD’s? It’s not like Chipotle is struggling to survive. People will flock to things like that even if they are (as Chipotle is) slightly more expensive than their greasy nasty counterparts. So long as the difference is slight, and the convenience remains the same.

Related to the pleasure argument: surely I can’t be the only one here who still derives good old-fashioned capitalist-training pleasure from the act of making a purchase? One reason I buy coffee out instead of brewing and carrying* is that it is FUN. It is satisfying to order a thing and have it given to you! It’s a pleasure, even added onto the pleasure of a hot cup of well-brewed coffee. I like to shop, and to buy. I have to restrain myself from doing both things in excess. I derive next to no satisfaction from producing. Yes, I’m the world’s worst progressive—a pure and willing consumer. But this is a nation of carefully crafted pure and willing consumers. We progressives would rather it weren’t so, but it is. We must, must MUST work with this reality.

*aside from the high dry-cleaning bills that resulted from trying to carry Thermos coffee on our bogus train system

Comment #23: Well, what?  on  09/28  at  12:01 PM

I’m always amazed that there are people, and plenty of them, with white-collar jobs who eat out for lunch every weekday.  It takes forever!  This is one situation where I agree that fast food really is slow because of transport.  Eating stuff from home in the breakroom/at your desk is where it’s at if you’ve got shit to do.  Or hell, if you are taking a true one-hour lunch break, you save a lot of relaxing time by not driving and standing in line/waiting on the (non-fast food) server.  Expense is a whole other thing.

Comment #24: ganews_  on  09/28  at  12:02 PM

I’m always amazed that there are people, and plenty of them, with white-collar jobs who eat out for lunch every weekday.  It takes forever!  This is one situation where I agree that fast food really is slow because of transport.  Eating stuff from home in the breakroom/at your desk is where it’s at if you’ve got shit to do.

The whole point of going out to lunch is to STOP doing the shit you have to do. Because if you hadn’t noticed, most jobs are ass and we hate doing them.

Comment #25: Well, what?  on  09/28  at  12:07 PM

I reiterate: Or hell, if you are taking a true one-hour lunch break, you save a lot of relaxing time by not driving and standing in line/waiting on the (non-fast food) server.  Expense is a whole other thing.

I mean EVERY day out to lunch?  That’s a lot of ass.

Comment #26: ganews_  on  09/28  at  12:09 PM

I mean EVERY day out to lunch?  That’s a lot of ass.

I dunno about you, but my job definitely merits a daily escape. It’s what keeps me off the evening news. If I sit at my desk I will be obliged to continue performing tasks upon demand. If I sit in the breakroom I will generally be unhappy because the people in there do nothing but panic about work. I’ve tried to read, but the volume level is much too high. Not relaxing.

I’m lucky—I don’t have to get in a car or even technically eat out, as I’m downtown and stuff is walkable, and there’s a park if I want to eat my PB&J from home. But yes, OUT is imperative. Every day. Yes. 

 

Comment #27: Well, what?  on  09/28  at  12:15 PM

Amanda, I think the labor thing is closely bound to what you’re saying, which is why we constantly keep circling back to the time and effort in making fast food being an unpleasant chore for people that don’t have a buy-in and/or experience. And like you said, a heap of grease and sugar that’s ready for you in a couple of minutes beats having to cry over a cut-up onion, nearly slicing your finger off trying to figure out how to chop a bell pepper, dealing with the lines and bother of a supermarket, and then having pans and plates to scrub at the end. I think if people could tangibly see how much money they would save by cooking at home for a month (with maybe one or two fast-food forays), they would realize that they could spend that money on things that would give them a more satisfying sense of pleasure (new XBox game, upgraded cable, etc).

Comment #28: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/28  at  12:17 PM

Fair enough.  I do have the privilege of enjoying my job, although I’m aware that many people don’t.  In line with the thread, though, it’s not the “out”, it’s the “eating out.”  The park sounds nice, and it can’t be raining every day.  I’m eating lunch right now while I type - on to the banana.

Comment #29: ganews_  on  09/28  at  12:21 PM

I like to cook, and I cook almost all my meals, but about once a week I resort to McDonald’s or the like—there are all manner of fast-food eateries along my commute—because it really is faster. It’s a lot more expensive, though, so if I figure in the time I had to work to make the money….

...but none of that helps when I need to be in class by 6 and it’s quarter of 5 and I’ve got 55 miles to drive. Planning ahead helps, but no one can plan ahead 100% of the time.

Comment #30: Aurora Erratic  on  09/28  at  12:22 PM

Or, as Eddie Izzard so famously put it: “Cake or Death?” “Cake please.”

Comment #31: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/28  at  12:24 PM

You can front-load most of this work by making a weekly menu and grocery shopping on the weekend, but it’s still work.

And some of us just suck at this. I don’t know how to maintain a kitchen. Appliances are easy—you just accumulate them as you decide to use them, so our kitchen has been getting slowly better in that regard. But I’m no good at planning what needs to be done to have a week’s worth of meals. I can do one or two if I’m planning out at least a day in advance of the first one. But enough ingredients have expiration dates to make it hard to plan more than that. Also, I swap off cooking with my husband, and it’s not uncommon for either one of us to choose to push off cooking for a day by eating out (sometimes fast food, sometimes not), or just because something came up. So stuff doesn’t always get used fast enough even if I do have it in the apartment.

ganews_, you’re also missing the social aspect of dining out, especially if you want to spend time with people outside your workplace. My husband used to bring home lunch from time to time when we lived closer to his work.  He still goes out once or twice a week with an old friend who works downtown. That’s social time that he wouldn’t get if he ate at the office. And as well, what said, it lets him get AWAY from work, as well as co-workers that he spends more time around than he wants already.

Comment #32: Jayn Newell  on  09/28  at  12:25 PM

In line with the thread, though, it’s not the “out”, it’s the “eating out.”


But what else is one going to do, generally? You have to eat, after all. Or most people do. 

My particular privilege is twofold: location and metabolism. I don’t eat much. But I would do more eating out, rather than just getting out, if eating was the only Thing To Do around. And in most suburbs, it pretty much is. You can either eat, or go to a movie, and lunch breaks aren’t long enough for a movie. I guess in some suburbs, you could shop. (Half my “lunch” breaks are actually spent at H&M come to think of it.) So if the options are go to restaurant, sit in car, or sit at desk…yeah, I’m gonna pick the restaurant pretty much every time.

 

Comment #33: Well, what?  on  09/28  at  12:26 PM

White collar eating-out at lunch is all about getting the hell out of the office for a bit.  The consumption of food is almost incidental.

At work you usually have restrictive social rules, you may be unable to talk to people you want to talk to (because the subject is not work-related), you’re stuck there with some people you like and often some/many people you don’t like, and have to pretend it’s all okay when you may feel like screaming.

When you leave for lunch, you can let your hair down for a while, shoot the shit, talk about anything, you’re with people you like, or at least tolerate.  Even if you have to drive to get somewhere, that’s part of the ritual too — talking in the confines of a car seems extra private and away from the prying ears of your office mates.  Eating out at lunch is a social occasion that happens to involve food…

Comment #34: MikeEss  on  09/28  at  12:27 PM

Jayn, I know.  I wish my office-mates had time to go out to lunch more (I miss my Friday lunches from grad school).  But even in your example, it’s not a literally every day thing, but that’s the case that I find surprisingly common.

Comment #35: ganews_  on  09/28  at  12:30 PM

Jayn—I believe you! I’m a pre-planner, and my husband is not. On nights when it was decided that he would do the cooking (in advance), he would come up to me at 6:00 and ask “so what do you want for dinner” pretty much guaranteeing that if dinner wasn’t something out of a jar or a box, we would be ordering out if we wanted to eat.

Now, every Saturday morning I sit down and start to build a list of what will be made for dinner that week and what I’ll have to pick up at the store, and every Saturday morning I ask my husband “what are you going to make” (for your ONE NIGHT of cooking) and he is like a deer in the headlights when I ask him this and he has to go into a sort of fugue state before panicking and spitting out one of three recipes that he always makes.

Doing something like thawing meat or getting a slowcooker going is something that would never cross his mind in the morning.

Comment #36: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/28  at  12:33 PM

#2:

Yes, we should find a way around the fat and sugar filled food.  The answer is not only learning to cook, the answer is not having no fast food, but having fast food that is actually good.

I honestly have to disagree with you here.  Processed foods and “fast” foods are always going to be more expensive than their home-cooked counterparts, simply because you have to add other people’s labor to the cost.  Either ingredients will suffer or prices will rise.  That’s the only way to balance the equation.

That said, “Learn to cook” isn’t nearly as hard as it sounds.  I make a baked chicken dish that goes from cutting-board to oven inside five minutes.  The cook time takes a while, but if I throw on a timer it lets me squeeze out thirty minutes of relaxing or other chores.

All told, this is a lot faster than getting off the highway, pulling into a drive-through line, waiting for my order, waiting for my food, and driving home again before I get to eat it.

That said, my chicken/veggie dish comes out sweet and warm and crunchy.  If I didn’t know what I was doing, I could have a blackened mess that no one would want to touch or an undercooked pile that would make everyone sick.  That’s where a bit of education comes in.  But it extends my meal budget and my free time a long way.

Comment #37: Zifnab  on  09/28  at  12:34 PM

Amanda:

I don’t think you’re wrong, but I do think you’re universalizing your perspective. 

Some people will never learn how to cook, not because they can’t but because they don’t want to.  They will eat take out and/or restaurant foods for every meal they eat for the rest of their lives.  And that’s okay.  We should insist that fast and processed food be more healthy.

Some people will cook every meal and make everything from scratch while spending their spare time studying nutrition and obscure cooking techniques, and we should make fresh foods more accessible for them.

And the rest of us are somewhere in the middle and would benefit from both interventions. 

There are also people in the middle who would like to cook more and who would like to eat better, for them we should offer cooking classes, we should teach these skills in school, to everyone.  The answer isn’t going to be one big thing, but thousands and thousands of little things, and the answer definitely won’t be, “This is what I do and I don’t think it’s so hard, therefore, everyone can do at least this much.”  People mostly do what they can.

Comment #38: hideandseek  on  09/28  at  12:34 PM

In the end it all comes back around to Amanda’s thesis: Modern American life is a pretty miserable, grinding endeavor for the majority of participants. Even us “lucky” relatively prosperous ones (most of whom are clinging to that shred of prosperity with increasingly slippery hands).

There are just a few little jots of pleasure deemed socially acceptable by our culture, and they are: consumption of food, consumption of goods, consumption of media. And then there are the unacceptable ones: sex, intoxicants, physical activity. (These are mostly unacceptable because they are not in themselves terribly profitable.)

If life were more pleasant we would not find it necessary to drug ourselves out of it constantly. As it is, yes, we are going to recoil at finger-wagging that asks us to do more, even if it is theoretically better. Because we are exhausted and cornered and feeling cheated and mean and hateful. We’re not doing more, and nobody can make us.

Comment #39: Well, what?  on  09/28  at  12:38 PM

Kit-Kat @ #14: If I had one wish in regards to fast food it would be this- get rid of those toys at McDonald’s.  Damn I hate those toys.  I know it’s easy to say “well, just ignore your kids when they whine about it.”  It’s not that easy!  Sometimes you have a dozen things to do, you are trying to think about stuff and when you have an easy way of making the child in the back seat stop complaining so you can get on with what you’re doing, sometimes you take it. 

Sure, I’m an informed consumer- I can consider how bad that food is for you, how the toy sucks and will only be played with once, how it’s a waste of money, etc.  But my child is not.  And that’s who McDonald’s is marketing to.  So yeah, sometimes you can ignore it and sometimes it’s just not worth the time.  But if McDonald’s would stop selling Happy Meals with toys based on the latest cartoon, it would be a lot easier for parents.

Comment #40: Satanicpanic  on  09/28  at  12:40 PM

Who wants to eat a one-dish meal every single day? Who isn’t going to get sick of that?

My wife. She’s a master at one-pot cooking, and every item in her oeuvre is tasty and interesting. Completely the opposite of me; I dirty every pan in the cabinet.  (Her way is superior from the dishwashwer’s standpoint.)

Regarding the “front-loading” discussion, I’d like to add that there’s some one-time overhead in knowing how to order fast food. When I walk into a fast food restaurant where I’m not familiar with the menu—and frankly, that’s most of them, because they keep changing shit up—I have to stare stupidly for several minutes to figure out what my options are, and what their made-up vocabulary means (“Big Mac?” “Whopper?” These aren’t actually descriptive labels.). It’s worse at the drive through, because you can’t look over the menu until you’re right at the mike.

No, it’s not huge, but fast food culture does make the assumption of a commercially-educated customer base.

Comment #41: Cris (without an H)  on  09/28  at  12:40 PM

Well, what?, you can do anything.  I have coworkers that jog or walk.  Sit in your park and read since it’s too loud inside.  Get one of those smartphones with games and video I hear so much about.

I guess I’ve spent enough time sounding like a superior ass.  Now it happens I’ve got to get back to it.

Comment #42: ganews_  on  09/28  at  12:41 PM

I suspect there’s something to Amanda’s thesis simply because I lost my taste for most fast food. Whether it’s fast or not isn’t even the point—I simply don’t have a desire to eat it. I would eat it not because it’s fast as much as because I had a craving for it. So I assume the reason people are eating it is because they have a craving for that food, regardless of its actual speed of delivery.

That said, I’m not a sensualist: the pleasure people get out of food tastes and textures aren’t things that particularly interest me or are things I obsess over participating in. Someone more concerned with sensual aspects of food and things is going to make different choices than I do.

Comment #43: Tyro  on  09/28  at  12:47 PM

Like I said, I pretty much do those things. I read, or shop, or walk. Because I work in a city where there’s a park, and fun things to see on a walk, and so on and so forth.

When I worked in a suburban office, though, there was literally nothing for miles except other offices and their parking lots—or restaurants. No parks, no grassy areas to sit in, no jogging or walking paths. (And no showers or anything for cleaning up after your jog, natch.) That is how a lot of America is built, dudes! Office “parks.” In winter my boss called our town Little Siberia because it was that desolate.

Yeah, back then on my 30 minute lunch I sat in my car and played my ipod. But mostly, I went out to eat. In 30 minutes one couldn’t travel far enough to do other things, and that’s just how it was. <shrug>

You don’t sound superior, you just sound unaware—and super-super lucky that you don’t spend all day wishing for some kind of nuclear war or zombie plague just so that you would never have to come to this building again.

Comment #44: Well, what?  on  09/28  at  12:51 PM

The frontloading idea works for a lot of people, but not for us.  We wind up throwing away enough food to feed a small village because it gets bought, gets planned for, and then the plans don’t happen, and eventually we have this .  .  . item .  .  . in the back of the refrigerator that is a different color than what it was when purchased.

Comment #45: Dana  on  09/28  at  01:11 PM

There are millions and millions of dollars spent every year getting people to think of buying fast food as a pleasant experience. It really ain’t. Imagine if someone were spending that kind of money extolling the joy of throwing together some stuff from the fridge or even going to the grocery store as an entertainment experience.

And I gotta say my fatty salty crap is inevitably way more satisfying than their fatty salty crap. The time it takes me to slice a bagel and some cheese and throw in the toaster oven is time that the kids are eating breakfast anyway.

Comment #46: paul  on  09/28  at  01:30 PM

And I gotta say my fatty salty crap is inevitably way more satisfying than their fatty salty crap.

You can’t compete with them. They have all the fat, sugar and salt in the world. And they play dirty.

Comment #47: junk science  on  09/28  at  01:35 PM

I eat fast food quite a bit, despite the fact that I know a lot of it’s bad for me, despite the fact that I have weight issues, and despite the fact that it’s relatively expensive.

I work at an office desk all day, and I work long hours.  I also have a medical condition that makes me really, REALLY easily exhausted and depressed.  If I don’t pick up dinner on the way home (which is much easier than you make fast food trips sound like) I will sometimes go hungry rather than cook, because the idea of standing in the kitchen over a hot stove for 20+ minutes is literally overwhelming.  It takes all my motivation to drag myself to my office, which is 5 minutes from my house, every damn day, and not just because I don’t really like my job.

On top of that, I grew up in a household with two working parents.  Neither of them cooked much more than frozen chicken nuggets and canned corn.  I never learned how to cook properly, or that cooking is at all enjoyable (I got the opposite message), and the energy it would take me to sit down and read and practice and make trips to the grocery store for food I might totally waste is just not there for me.  When you don’t understand cooking, and lack the creative energy, trying to learn it is like trying to climb Everest.  And the guilt I form because of people who cheerfully say “but it’s not as hard as you think!” just makes things worse.

None of this means that I wouldn’t rather have a more nutritious, flavorful variety of foods.  I would kill to get fast food like that. Unfortunately, where I live it’s tough to even find a non-pizza restaurant that delivers, let alone has really outstanding food and a balanced menu.

I know I’m probably not a typical case, but I had to throw in my side of the argument because it seems to me like you are denying that anyone leans on fast food because it means not cooking, because it means having a bit more downtime in one’s day.  That’s exactly why I eat it.

Comment #48: Caelan Aegana  on  09/28  at  01:35 PM

Before I became a writer, I commuted to work, usually shot 30 minutes each way, past many fast food places. Cooking was still easier, even if I had to stop at the store. Fast food places require interaction with lots of noisy people. They’re endured, not enjoyed. Cooking is quieter. Like I said, if you forward bullshit arguments, you’re more interested in scoring points than making change.

That is so opposite of my experience that it feels like a totally bullshit argument.  How could stopping at the store not involve far more interaction with noisy people than a fast food drive through? 

Perhaps the fast food places where you lived were far busier than the ones around me.  I almost never wait in line.  When I do, I’m listening to the radio.  If I go inside and have to wait, I’m playing a game on my iphone.  The fastest “home cooked” meal I know how to make would take me 15 minutes of cooking time.  I would bet any amount of money that I could get dressed, leave my home and return with fast food (McDonald’s is closest, but I prefer Tacos) within 15 minutes.  And that doesn’t include dishes (even one pot, one stirring spoon, one bowl, one cutting board, one fork take a couple minutes to wash). 

Stopping at the store almost always involves trickier parking, wandering around looking for what I want.  Inevitably stopping to contemplate whether there are other things I should be buying, and waiting in line (a point which seems to make fast food painful in your world). 

I agree with you in some ways; I think that the fundamental issues behind fast-food are primarily about issues other than speed.  But, you are describing things as “facts” that are completely incongruous with my own experience.  By your own standard that appears to be a bullshit attempt to score ‘points.’

Comment #49: Snuffleupagus  on  09/28  at  01:40 PM

Comment #45: Dana - I have that problem especially with fresh veg. I tried for a while to go to the farmers’ market and eat more “whole” foods, but damn those veggies go bad quick. I’d practically have to shop for ingredients the day of to keep them from going bad, and that isn’t going to happen on my schedule. My compromise has been frozen veg. I figure it’s a step up from the canned I used to eat and it still saves some prep time.

We (husband and I) also buy meat in bulk and package it for individual meals, but I recognize that is time consuming and can be too expensive for some people to start up. A small, 5ft cubic freezer is about $170, but a person also needs room to put it. Last weekend we went to the meat market, spent $240 and 4 hrs packaging enough meat to fill the entire freezer. This will last us >6 months. I know by comparing per pound prices that this saves us money in the long run, and it saves time because we just have to remember to pull something from the freezer every day. But, that kind of money and time is not something everyone has.

Comment #50: Livi  on  09/28  at  01:48 PM

For me, shopping is the most onerous part of making my own meals.  I don’t drive.  I used to live in Chicago where driving was both difficult and expensive.  I now live in Austin, where I can still avoid the expense of a car, but public transportation and shopping while available is not as accessible.  (In Chicago I could always walk to a grocery store—here I must take a 20 minute ride on a bus each way that only runs once every half-hour.)  Of course I never really cared for the actual shopping in either city: the crowded stores, the cluttered aisles and the long lines at the check-out.  (I understand that YMMV in the suburbs <grin>.)  So I often fall back on ordering out as more hassle free (if more expensive) way of obtaining meals.  Fast food, in fact, is just as inconvenient where I live as grocery shopping!

Comment #51: Frank McCormick  on  09/28  at  01:50 PM

I’ll add that, in our family, at least, it’s not true that eating out resolves all conflict among the kids.  One wants McD’s, and one wants Wendy’s, or one wants pizza, and one wants KFC.

Which is another reason I think this discussion is important.  Why is it that we eat so much junk?  What’s in it for us?  I think the explanations advanced here are novel and useful—the food is designed to tickle pleasure centers, and eating out (especially fast food) bears some similarity to an addiction, or at least a bad habit.

(I am also sure that, in our case, it is a time and energy saver.  When one of us picks up fast food on the way home, dinner is finished and the table cleared by 8 or 8:30.  When someone cooks, there are still pots to be cleaned and a dishwasher to be run at 9:30 or 10.  The workday is over sooner when we pick up something to eat.)

Comment #52: ScottInOH  on  09/28  at  01:56 PM

None of this means that I wouldn’t rather have a more nutritious, flavorful variety of foods.  I would kill to get fast food like that.

So would I. Takeout sushi is probably the closest I get to ideal fast food; the mercury content is a slight downside but getting enough veggie maki probably takes care of that.

What would be the matter with making that sort of thing more of the fast-food standard? Or look at the carryout at a place like Whole Foods (as much as I may hate them)—really good, fairly healthy, visually appealing prepared foods. Why not more of that? Why must it be crock pot or die?

Comment #53: Well, what?  on  09/28  at  02:08 PM

I’ve lived in cities where sandwich places, cafes, and Chipotle are the sort of fast food we eat, along with Chinese takeout. It’s not what we traditionally think of when we talk about fast food, but it’s the same concept. Usually I cook for the week and bring lunch to work. If I forget, I get a salad from the cafeteria. But sometimes I’m tired, frustrated with the cafeteria, and crave something different, so I’ll get cheap Chinese takeout. Thankfully, I’m also quite stingy, so I don’t eat that ever day, or even particularly often.

But I was raised to be frugal and taught myself that cooking for yourself is a personal virtue. Also, food shopping in the suburbs is a revelation compared to the city: no lines!

Comment #54: Tyro  on  09/28  at  02:10 PM

But gradually it dawned on me that it really wasn’t.  The time spent getting dressed, driving, waiting to order, waiting for food, and driving home would have been more than enough time to cook something simple.

Amanda, you’ve made this argument before, but I don’t buy it. I think time is an important factor in why more people eat out, especially when it comes to fast food.  What you describe is how I would describe eating out at a nice restaurant. But it isn’t how I or any I know eats fast food.  I grab fast food on my way home (or on my way somewhere else).  If I order in, then I’m do something else while waiting for my food.  My SIL gets food on the way to or from her child’s sports game/practice.  Your calculation also doesn’t take into account the time it takes to grocery shop and plan.  Finally, even if a person could make a simple meal at home in the same amount of time, they aren’t able to make several meals.  One of the advantages of eating out is that you can cater to multiple tastes.  Any parent can tell you that, at times, that option is a godsend.

I know these food arguments can go in a lot of different directions but one thing that irritates me is the seeming unwillingness to accept that cooking is a skill.  Suppose that someone knits fabulous outfits.  And that person complained about how people shouldn’t waste all that time on shopping, trying on outfits, driving to the mall.  They should just knit their own clothes. Hey, its not that hard.  You can make simple shawl in the same amount of time!  I doubt many would accept that premise.  Knitting is a skill.  It takes an interest and time to learn.  So does cooking.

I don’t think why people eat fast food is even a productive argument.  Who cares?  Everyone has their own reasons.  A better argument would acknowledge that fast food is here to stay, now how can we make it healthier.  For everyone.

Comment #55: carovee  on  09/28  at  02:20 PM

But I was raised to be frugal and taught myself that cooking for yourself is a personal virtue.

Why is cooking for yourself a personal virtue? Or do you mean, frugality is a virtue and cooking contributes to frugality? If I save money by living in a cheap apartment and not owning a car, am I “allowed” to eat out without being a bad person?

 

Comment #56: Well, what?  on  09/28  at  02:21 PM

In a part which seems to have gone unnoticed so far, Amanda concluded her main article:

We have to think of the problem as more complex than that, even if doing so brings up uncomfortable solutions, like demanding a redistribution of agricultural subsidies and taxing fast food so that it’s not so much a cheap pleasure as it used to be.

Which means that, because Amanda is against consuming a lot of fast food, and has found ways to make it really not part of her life, even though many of the mostly liberal commenters here have their own reasons—or no reasons, just impulses—for eating fast food, well by God, we ought to use the power of government to punish people for eating the wrong things.

Comment #57: Dana  on  09/28  at  02:22 PM

Noooo! Don’t get rid of the food desserts!

More seriously, I agree that our society could benefit from teaching people how to cook simple foods. Also, our society could benefit from teaching people simple financial knowledge. Neither of those things are in the interest of Big Businesses that spend approximately twelve kajillion dollars a year on advertising and another twelve kajillion on lobbying. EVEN SO: Amanda, gotta chime in with those who disagree. Going through a Taco Bell Drive through takes about 1/5th the time of a grocery store visit. There’s an argument to be made that it’s not an effective trade because of the relative values of the resulting products, but jeebus, a straight up ‘fast food is annoyingly hard to procure’ argument is pretty laughable.

Comment #58: the duck-billed placelot  on  09/28  at  02:26 PM

@Dana- why do we need to subsidize crappy food?

Comment #59: Satanicpanic  on  09/28  at  02:31 PM

Cooking is quieter

Yes, cooking is quieter when you live with a grown adult and two cats and nobody else. wink Cooking in, say, my mother’s house growing up, with three children and two giant dogs banging around is pretty much the loudest thing On Earth. Chipotle is a yoga class by comparison.

Comment #60: Well, what?  on  09/28  at  02:32 PM

Satanicpanic wrote:

why do we need to subsidize crappy food?

I don’t see that we need to subsidize any foods, and don’t think we ought to be in the business of doing so.  But the more important part was Amanda’s suggestion that we increase taxes on fast food, to specifically penalize those who take such choices; I don’t see why that ought to be any of the government’s business.

Comment #61: Dana  on  09/28  at  02:38 PM

Why is cooking for yourself a personal virtue? Or do you mean, frugality is a virtue and cooking contributes to frugality?

Both. I am a grownup. Grownups manage their own households, clean their apartments, do their laundry, and cook for themselves. Children have their food served by their parents or go to mcdonalds where they get a happy meal. People who are profligate go out to eat because they lack the skills and discipline to do something themselves.

I mean, if you have enough money to retain a personal chef, more power to you, but I don’t.

Granted, I’m revealing all my pathologies that are tied up with cooking, but that’s what it is for me. It gives me more control over my diet and my budget. It was part of how I was taught to support myself as an independent adult.

Comment #62: Tyro  on  09/28  at  02:39 PM

Oh good, I finally have an adjective for myself. “Profligate” sounds good. I shall have it tattooed on me somewhere so I remember to feel bad about it once or twice a year. wink

Comment #63: Well, what?  on  09/28  at  02:45 PM

The whine factor - that’s the explanation!  I’m the commenter in the last thread who said I hate, hate, hate cooking, and would rather do the work of scrubbing the toilet than cooking.  But I have 4 kids, and a husband who was a vegetarian when the kids weren’t , and jumped feet-first into barbeque when they became vegetarians, and every damn meal of my life was greeted by someone’s “oh, no, not this!”  My husband would get in my way making alternate vegetarian meals when I was trying to serve the kids meatloaf, giving them permission to say “No, I don’t want that!  Daddy’s not eating it!”
My bible at that time was “Desperation Dinners”, by Mills and Ross.  Wonderful, tasty meals guaranteed to be ready in 20 minutes or less.  I enjoyed them, even if everybody else complained.  “Oh, no, not another Desperation Dinner!”  I became the Queen of Takeout, just so I wouldn’t have to deal with the whining.  I still make the Desperation Dinner recipes, and package them in 6 individual servings, because they’re easy and good.  I like them, and the whiners don’t eat here any more.
Now they’re all grown and gone, and I work opposite shifts from hubby, who mostly makes salads, so I’m looking for the quick, simple, single serving stuff.
And hubby gets major points from everybody because he makes a big, elaborate Sunday dinner every week.
#37 Zifnab - please share your chicken/veggie dish.  Even though I hate to cook, I love to eat, and if it’s as easy as you say, I’d love to try it. I’m one of those folks who urged Amanda to keep up with the CSA recipes,  even though I won’t cook most of them, because I’m always looking for that gem that’s going to transform my cooking/eating experience, and the next one could very well be IT!

Comment #64: gretchen  on  09/28  at  02:54 PM

I think his (and the previous) post are excellent and generally I agree with the points Amanda is making here. I do see how fast food is faster for many people and I think that’s a factor, but it’s obviously a lot more than just convenience and we have so much work to do on so many fronts to improve our national diet.

But while I am reasonably competent at cooking and sometimes enjoy it even, Tyro @ #62:—“profligate” describes everyone who eats out, what, ever? Really? You do realize that the restaurant industry employees tons of people? That people go out to eat to socialize, to get out of the house, to try new and foreign foods? I’m not sticking up for Taco Bell, but dining out in general—why is that a sin?

Comment #65: chareth cutestory  on  09/28  at  02:58 PM

Re: Dana @ 61

But the more important part was Amanda’s suggestion that we increase taxes on fast food, to specifically penalize those who take such choices; I don’t see why that ought to be any of the government’s business.

If we take it as a given that people who choose to eat fast food are making rational decisions based on myriad factors including price, and if we take it as a given that we want to reduce the consumption of unhealthy fast food, then it seems reasonable to propose that governments step in to remove or reduce one of the factors that motivates unhealthy fast food consumption. Additionally, the adverse health effects that may come with consistent consumption of unhealthy fast food are not without costs of their own, some of which may be borne by government programs. It makes sense to try to recoup some of those costs from the transactions that give rise to them.

Re: Tyro @ 62

I feel much the same way. Being a grownup is hard—and one thing I’ve come to understand from these comment threads is that for all the challenges and drugery I have to put up with, I have it fucking made—but that doesn’t mean that people don’t have the responsibility to make the best choices for themselves. At the same time, though, it really does seem like we are at a point where people get so beaten down on a day-to-day basis that their ability to make the best choices for themselves is effectively taken away from them.

Comment #66: I, too, have an opinion!  on  09/28  at  02:58 PM

By the way, snark aside, I’m really interested in this line of thought. I encountered it from a different poster on the other thread as well, that somehow not being “dependent” on another person for food (and presumably anything else) is virtuous. It’s an odd concept to me; we’re all technically dependent on everyone, for everything. We are a society, after all, or at least we are for a little while yet.

Comment #67: Well, what?  on  09/28  at  03:00 PM

“Which means that, because Amanda is against consuming a lot of fast food, and has found ways to make it really not part of her life, even though many of the mostly liberal commenters here have their own reasons—or no reasons, just impulses—for eating fast food, well by God, we ought to use the power of government to punish people for eating the wrong things.”

How is it punishing people to wish that the cost of fast food would reflect its true cost of production, rather than government subsidies that make it artificially cheap?  HFCS goes in practically everything, mostly because it’s really cheap.  If it wasn’t so cheap, food manufacturers wouldn’t use so much of it, or people would have to pay more to eat it and they might decide there were more gratifying ways to spend that amount of money.  Government should not be distorting the market in favor of unhealthy products.   

And while I agree that Amanda overestimates the time factor in getting fast food if you’re picking it up on the way home from work rather than making a trip from home to get it, the point isn’t that fast food isn’t faster than home cooking.  Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn’t, depending on the specific circumstances.  But even if fast food is faster, there are many people who eat fast food, not because they don’t actually have the time to cook at home, but because they don’t want to cook at home—they don’t like cooking, they’re tired at the end of the day, their family is made up of picky eaters, they’d rather spend their time at home doing something else, etc.  I sympathize with these rationales.  But to say that you prefer fast food for reasons of energy or skill or whatever is not the same thing as saying that you have to eat fast food.  It’s merely articulating why you choose fast food, and if we agree that reducing people’s consumption of unhealthy processed fast food is a good goal, then those are the reasons we need to take into account.

Comment #68: Kit-Kat  on  09/28  at  03:03 PM

Then there are people who subsist on ramen and other cheap prepared foods: it’s kind of childish and reflects a lack of independence, but from my perspective in terms of “food-is-a-health-sustaining-fuel”,  I realize that people do what they have to. I have a few boxes of microwaveable noodles in my office for those late nights. But not cooking as some kind of principle or some kind of die-hardened inability? That’s like not sweeping your floor or pumping your gas.

I actually don’t regard going out to eat in general as some kind of extravagant profligacy. I enjoy good food at good restaurants with my friends, but it’s a supplement to your own food, not a substitution. It’s the overgrown manchild who orders pizza and takeout every night because he can’t he bothered to cool and clean for himself. I dunno—in college, I had access to a kitchen, and it made sense for me to realize, “wow—instead of going to the dining hall,  I could just do this myself for less money, and it would taste better!”

Comment #69: Tyro  on  09/28  at  03:11 PM

Yes, it’s true.  If going out to eat involves getting dressed, driving to the Burger Hut, ordering, eating, driving home - it’s often faster to cook something.  If you have something.  But if cooking something involves getting dressed, driving to the Grocerama, buying food, driving home, cooking it, and eating it - that’s not faster any more.  And far more often in my experience, fast food involves getting off work tired and hungry, stopping at the drive through on the way to my next destination, and eating at stoplights.  If I leave work at 7:30 and have a meeting to get to at 8, I’m not going to go home, cook, eat, clean, and then leave for my meeting.  Lacking the powers of Flash-like speed or time travel, it’s not going to happen.  Nor am I likely to just go without eating anything.  I’m going to head for the Burger Hut (or whatever happens to be between my work and destination) and grab something while I try to keep up with the modern schedule that demands more work for the same or less pay, while trying to maintain my social and community obligations.

In short - if you want people to cook more, give them a 40 hour (or shorter) work week in a local job with a short commute that pays enough to support a household in shelter with a functioning kitchen and nearby groceries. 

Good luck with all that in America though.

Comment #70: libdevil  on  09/28  at  03:12 PM

At the same time, though, it really does seem like we are at a point where people get so beaten down on a day-to-day basis that their ability to make the best choices for themselves is effectively taken away from them.

This is certainly true for many; for others, I think it may simply be a matter of insufficient return on investment. The effort and energy and drudgery involved in making the “best choice” on any given day just isn’t balanced out by the results. Yeah yeah the pure satisfaction of virtue blah blah…whatever. Momma always said proud is nice but it don’t pay the rent.

Comment #71: Well, what?  on  09/28  at  03:16 PM

But if McDonald’s would stop selling Happy Meals with toys based on the latest cartoon, it would be a lot easier for parents.

Kill your television. Stop letting your kids go to crappy cartoon movies. My kid gets 45 minutes of “Sesame Street” on Netflix every other day. She points at any of that marketing crap, we tell her it’s garbage. It’s not that hard.

Comment #72: felagund  on  09/28  at  03:18 PM

I’m with Well What? on the lunch out at work thing.  I want to not be at my desk, with the smell of chemicals wafting over my lunch.  I want to not be sitting in the racket of machinery and high efficiency exhaust fans.  I want to not be around the coworkers who make my skin crawl.  Out is imperative.  And, where I work, fast.  At least 2 dozen options within a 5 minute walk (some of them even healthy).  Marginally pleasant outdoor places to eat something if I brought it myself.  The days when I’m in such a damned crunch that I have to snarf food at my desk are universally MISERABLE days.

Comment #73: libdevil  on  09/28  at  03:23 PM

Things that make cooking annoying for me:

1. I live with my parents, and i live in my bedroom as a result. i love mom and dad but don’t want to spend much time with them (this is mostly due to introversion, they are only occasionally annoying). So leaving my comfort zone to get into the kitchen is no fun. Dad sometimes cooks dinner, but the 3 of us mostly fend for ourselves.

2. I am a SLOB, and i have no idea how to not be. I’m talking leaving dishes in my room sometimes to the point of mold level of slobbishness. Yes, i do have some shame about this fact, but keeping clean really is sooo haaaaard for me, even if it’s a little bit. My parents are not quite as horrific as I am, but dad’s living room area had extreme clutter all over the place for YEARS before he finally did something about it. Dad also lets dishes get moldy in the kitchen. Mom is “merely” clutter-and-dust-happy usually. Doing dishes once a week is super super super hardcore for any of us. Mopping the floor more often than once a year is similarly hardcore. So yeah, even a meal with one dish is a huge fucking deal. Oh, and we have no dishwashing machine.

3. 40 hours a week in a retail job where i *frequently* close one night then open the next day. Makes keeping organized a problem too.

4. Health issues which probably are a huge part of the reason i am such a goddamn slob.

i don’t eat fast food, because i have Celiac, and finding GF fast food is impossible. Even when i did, yes, it was too much effort for me to drive to get some.

it should be possible to have premade/processed/fast food that is tasty, affordable, actually easy, and healthy. But that doesn’t really exist. Cheap frozen dinners are gross, the ones that are good tend to cost too much, and so little of it is actually good for you. And -everything- has either soy, wheat, corn, or dairy (or some combo thereof) and 3 of those are top food allergens! WTF.

While getting people into the kitchen more is a noble goal (gimme a wage where i can afford living on my own and it may happen slightly more often for me!), i see nothing wrong with making healthy stuff that doesn’t require cooking cheaper etc., or actually healthy fast food, and surely that would aid the health of many Americans just like more cooking at home would?

Wow I wrote a whole blog post there, woooo.

Comment #74: Margaret  on  09/28  at  03:40 PM

Kill your television. Stop letting your kids go to crappy cartoon movies. My kid gets 45 minutes of “Sesame Street” on Netflix every other day. She points at any of that marketing crap, we tell her it’s garbage. It’s not that hard.

Just out of curiosity, what “crappy cartoon movies” are you thinking of?

Comment #75: KeithM  on  09/28  at  03:47 PM

i see nothing wrong with making healthy stuff that doesn’t require cooking cheaper etc., or actually healthy fast food, and surely that would aid the health of many Americans just like more cooking at home would?

As I just said on the other thread a little while back, I feel it’s essential for the cooking advocates to clarify their goals. Is the end game healthy people eating better, however they can manage it? Or is it for everyone to cook in their homes nearly all of the time? The two are NOT the same goal, not at all.

Comment #76: Well, what?  on  09/28  at  03:49 PM

Processed foods and “fast” foods are always going to be more expensive than their home-cooked counterparts, simply because you have to add other people’s labor to the cost.

The conclusion does not follow from the premise.

My own labor has value to me, so cooking and making groceries myself is a cost. It does not follow that adding other people’s labor will necessarily increase the price of food as much or more than the value of the labor I’d have to put in myself to do it.

First of all, if we consider the inequalities in the labor marketplace, my own labor is worth about 30$ an hour while the labor of a fast food worker is (generously) worth about 8$. Assuming 20 minutes of meal preparation by a single person, without even factoring in costs like having to go get ingredients and such, that means if I’m cooking I’m roughly down 7$, not up 3$. If you consider cooking a hobby then the math is a lot more generous, but as a chore it’s not cost-efficient to do it myself instead of outsourcing it.

But even in an anarcho-communist utopia, people whose occupations are to be dedicated cooks for the commune would, by virtue of their expertise, have their labor cost for doing the same meal as me be inferior, and for the same amount of work they could produce a meal of much higher value. And communal cooking would benefit from economy of scale.

Comment #77: BlackBloc  on  09/28  at  03:57 PM

BlackBloc—that reminds me of the time Barbara Kingsolver tried to sucker me into making my own cheese. It’s so easy! she wrote. It’s super-cheap and delicious and ready in less than an hour! So I bought the kit and the milk and tried it out. I ended up with cheese that tasted like milk (gross). So I tried again, and after what was waayyyyy longer than an hour as I laboriously squeezed Every. Last. Drop. Of. Whey. Out. I ended up with a small lump of cheese that was still pretty damn bland.

When I look at how much I make per hour, and how much a ball of mozzarella costs at the fancy cheese counter, it was pretty easy for me to decide that unless Cheese starts costing more than what I make in an hour, I’ll let other people do that work for me.

Comment #78: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/28  at  04:12 PM

I really don’t see why it has to be one way or the other—either you eat nothing but perfectly healthy, well-balanced meals that you prepared yourself, or you literally drive through Taco Bell every goddamn night. I cook most of the time, but I’m absolutely not above buying a frozen pizza if I absolutely do not have time to cook anything else. And on certain hungover Sundays I have been known to stagger bleary-eyed to Burger King for a Whopper. I also agree that cooking and cleaning can be a huge pain in the ass, and if you have a partner and children, it can be a bigger pain in the ass. So why aren’t they helping? Am I the only kid whose chore it was to do dishes most nights? And if your partner is refusing to help with any cooking OR cleaning, and is literally just like, “I’d rather eat tater-tots every night than ever, ever help you in the kitchen,” then that is really sad, and not a workable situation.

I agree that it’s not easy to make healthy meals four or five nights a week, but eating fast food all the time is a lethal solution. If you’re feeding fast food to your kids every night, they’re not getting the nutrition they need to be strong and healthy adults. And the whining thing, while I get that it’s legitimately irritating, you can’t give your kids what they want just because they whine about it. What if they whined because they wanted to play in the street, or sniff glue?

 

Comment #79: Jenny Dreadful  on  09/28  at  04:13 PM

@ blackbloc, as often comes up when people talking about breastfeeding being “free”—it’s only free if your time is worthless.

Comment #80: Well, what?  on  09/28  at  04:14 PM

The fast food people are also seriously slick marketers. I can get hungry if I end up seeing an ad for fast food even when I know that I dislike that fast food joint and I know that they only got those pictures to look like that because the food is literally sprayed and painted with nail polish and all sorts of shit. Fast food isn’t cooked; it’s engineered—both the food itself and the marketing for it—to make you crave it.

Comment #81: thecynicalromantic  on  09/28  at  04:22 PM

When I’m feeling too lazy too cook I either go out for fast food, or buy bags of frozen vegetables (usually peas and corn) and mixed nuts (walnuts, cashew, macadamia nuts, and almonds) and snack on those directly. It may be a bit weird, especially the frozen vegetables, but it’s sure better than many other snack foods out there.

Oh, and I live in Japan where the large sizes at fast restaurants are roughly equivalent to American small sizes. And the Japanese chains only offer diet soda (Coke Zero/Pepsi Next) instead of regular cola.

Comment #82: Pavonis  on  09/28  at  04:27 PM

For the premise about fast food hitting certain pleasure centers: it certainly was true for me. Even when eating pizza or fried chicken made me tired and bellyachey afterward, i still loooved the stuff. Even now as i eat kind of healthier i still have nostalgic pangs for Taco Bell and Pizza Hut and McD’s “chicken” “food” on occasion, though now the Belly Apocalypse would probably happen.

There *is* more to Americans’ fast food love it than any sort convenience, but the convenience/annoyance of cooking factor is worth bringing up 9,435 times, occasionally in way too long comments like yours truly wrote. smile And I do want to agree with Amanda’s point that that particular aspect will probably have to be dealt with somehow. But any solution should take into account people who really don’t want to/can’t cook just as much as the carb/sugar/salt/grease addicts.

Comment #83: Margaret  on  09/28  at  04:29 PM

If we take it as a given that people who choose to eat fast food are making rational decisions based on myriad factors including price YES!, and if we take it as a given that we want to reduce the consumption of unhealthy fast food YES!, then it seems reasonable to propose that governments step in to remove or reduce one of the factors that motivates unhealthy fast food consumption.  Uggh, no, no, no.  Then you are just punishing people for making choices that, as noted, are rational.  I think Amanda’s basic point is that we shouldn’t punish people for trying to get a little pleasure out of life.  Rather we should either a) find another way for people to get pleasure out of life or b) make sure the food they are entertaining themselves with isn’t killing them.  I prefer policies that focus on both, but policies that only focus on the latter would still go a long way to making us healthier without punishing certain classes of people.  Or maybe that’s what you meant all along and I just misunderstood.

Comment #84: carovee  on  09/28  at  04:33 PM

I think Amanda’s pleasure factor argument is more important than the time factor argument. Time is much less of an issue now than it was. Most people in the United States have refrigerators and freezers in their homes. These means that food lasts longer than it used to and shopping for it could be a weekly rather than daily event. People don’t need to go to a farmer’s market every day. Food deserts are a problem but for a majority of people they are not. What fast food gives people is an immediate good feeling of satisfaction that most home cooked meals would not deliver. George Orwell made these observations in the Road to Wigan Pier, where living conditions were arguably worse.

Comment #85: Lee  on  09/28  at  04:40 PM

#72.  Haha!  Great advice!  Except that… I have a television, but since they started broadcasting in HD it’s become a giant paperweight and/or occasional device to watch DVDs, so my child almost never sees TV advertising.  I’m going to go out on a limb and say that if your kid is watching Sesame Street, you haven’t hit the age where they are surrounded by this stuff, television or not.  Unless you plan on going Amish or home-schooling, your child will be exposed to it EVERY DAY OF THEIR LIVES.  Enjoy your freedom from Cartoon Character Tyranny while it lasts.

Comment #86: Satanicpanic  on  09/28  at  04:56 PM

Re: carovee @ 84

I guess I just have difficulty accepting a proactive disincentive as a reactive punishment. When people talk about punishing people for eating certain things, that conjures up visions of a Happy-Slap Meal, or the Laxaburger.

That said, I totally stand behind the two kinds of goals you outlined, at least in principle. In practice I’m not sure that the second is all that viable. The stuff that makes unhealthy fast food (or any food, really) so bad for a person is often the same stuff that makes it feel so good in the moment.

Comment #87: I, too, have an opinion!  on  09/28  at  04:57 PM

This idea that it’s “easy” to cook for a family is a relatively new idea.

Especially in the “servantless” lower middle class, one of the givens of my mother’s and grandmother’s generations were that housewife was a fulltime job.

Because it was.

Caring for the children before pre-schools and daycare was a given (or available, at all). And caring for a family’s clothing was also more time-consuming: before Permanent Press, almost every item of clothing (save underwear) required ironing, if it didn’t require Dry Cleaning or hand washing. (Even sheets required required ironing.) And before home dryers it all had to be put out on a line outdoors in the summer, or in the basement during the winter. (I remember sheets frozen on the line, from an unexpected frost.)

But a major part of a housewive’s 12 hour day was spent, planning for, shopping for and preparing 2-3 (or more) meals a day for the family, and washing the dishes. Fast food wasn’t nearly the option it is now, even convenience foods from the supermarket nowhere near as available, either.

However, once women began working full-time while married with children we got the boom in both fast food and supermarket convenience foods.

Often, it’s simply time management: women who work 8 hours a day outside the home (combined with a commute), still came home to a family who needed to be fed, children who required care, and clothing that required washing, and a house that needed to be cleaned.

“Wives spend substantionally more time than their husbands on family work, although women do less than 20 years ago, and men slightly more.” http://www.soc.washington.edu/users/brines/leewaite.pdf  And 20 years ago was two decades after married women began entering the workforce en mass.

Somewhere along the line the unfortunate reality that preparing meals for a family was something that required enough time that it was one of a woman’s major responsibilities, got lost in the new unrealistic idea that women frivolously didn’t care to do this “easy” thing.

Although yes, fast food is comfort food and tasty as all get out (unless you’ve cut back on sugar, fat and salt consumption so that it may taste too salty, sweet or greasy.)

But it’s no coincidence that the rise of fast food restaurants (and convenience foods in the grocery store) coincided with both partners in a family working outside the home, full time.

 

Comment #88: judybrowni  on  09/28  at  04:58 PM

The stuff that makes unhealthy fast food (or any food, really) so bad for a person is often the same stuff that makes it feel so good in the moment.

This is true in at least some cases, but I think if you can provide sufficient other rewards (retaining convenience, providing an appealing taste, providing some kind of social cache, perhaps?) then people can and do train themselves away from the truly nastiest stuff.

As I mentioned upthread, Chipotle is not sputtering and dying. It’s much easier to make a healthy meal out of their options than out of many other places’ options. But it’s just as fast, and only marginally more costly. The takeout sushi place near my house does a brisk business too, for the same reasons. These things do appeal to people! But in lots of places you don’t have them as options.

Comment #89: Well, what?  on  09/28  at  05:03 PM

Oh by the by, both my mother’s generation (born 1920) and her mother’s generation had refrigerators (every refrigerator had a freezer by the 1950s in the US, at least.)

Preparing food for a family is work, pretending it’s not is insulting.

Comment #90: judybrowni  on  09/28  at  05:04 PM

Blackbloc hits a nail on the head that everyone else missed.

Isn’t it funny that we think of something that has traditionally been “women’s work” (see Judy’s comment) as “just part of life,” “free of cost,” “requiring no skills,” etc.? How many people here feel that guilty about not being able to work on their own cars, houses, etc.?

I cook. I cook a lot. But I’ve got the skills, space, accoutrements, and (usually) time. And the only reason I got into cooking at all was that I had an SO for a while who was good at cooking and good at teaching me to cook. It was a sensual experience… and that was a lot more attractive than Tyro’s crap about “virtue.”

Contrast that to the college roommate I had who mocked me for everything domestic I didn’t learn how to do. Even for scrambling eggs with a spoon instead of a fork. That put me off cooking for years, unless I was absolutely broke.

Comment #91: Nobody in Particular  on  09/28  at  05:05 PM

  Judybrowni hits an important point that Loomis made in his post on Lawyers, Guns, and Money. The idea that cooking for your family is no more recent than the 1920s and was aided a lot by modern tech. Women and sometimes men had to go to the market every day to buy food for most of human history because it didn’t keep long and they had to go to multiple stores and stalls to get everything they needed. Cooking and every other household chore was very labor intensive. Thats why every family that could afford at least one full time servant, hired at least one full time servant. It took a lot of labor out of the process. If you couldn’t afford a servant and all adults had to work than families really couldn’t cook and had to the whatever equivalent of take out existed.

Comment #92: Lee  on  09/28  at  05:05 PM

As for Chipotle, I ended up with, shall we say, intestinal distress after a meal there.

Comment #93: judybrowni  on  09/28  at  05:06 PM

I hate cooking. I hate cleaning up afterward even more. Call it lazy, call it a lack aptitude, whatever. There are better things I can do with my time—gardening, writing, reading, walking the dog, making art, killing things on Xbox, doing crosswords, sleeping—than chopping, slicing, dicing and probably burning stuff (as I get bored and wander off). And washing dishes? Ugh. I’d rather clean the toilet…with my tongue. I. Hate. Cooking.

I imagine there are plenty of other people who share my ambivalence to some degree and when given an alternative, will take it. It’s just human nature. I don’t see how pushing already busy people—yes, we are busy—into taking on an unpleasant task is a good thing. Especially when the people in question are still more likely to be women.

FWIW, I rarely eat fast food and have lost a taste for it. This is because my husband cooks most of our meals at home. But “cooking” sometimes means nuking Trader Joes mac n’ cheese, or throwing a frozen pizza in the oven. My husband likes cooking, but after a long day, he doesn’t always have the energy—mental or physical—to come up with a meal.

It’s easy to see why food that sates our craving for fatty/salty/calorie-heavy is the easy and yes, quick, choice for many families.

Comment #94: adobedragon  on  09/28  at  05:08 PM

#75- and you bring up a good point- not everything that McDonald’s makes a toy out of sucks.  The TOYS suck and the fact that they use them to sell their crappy food via the “whine factor” sucks.

Comment #95: Satanicpanic  on  09/28  at  05:15 PM

I absolutely agree that greasy fast food is abolutely not all about speed.  But on the flip side, fast food is not all about pleasure centers or not whining.  It’s partly about speed, or at least convenience.  If you’re out & about all day, it is certainly faster to stop for a quick bite than to go home, cook, eat, and go back about your errands.  And it’s more convenient than packing a lunch, or at least might well be.  But it’s certainly the case that our pleasure centers, not the “need for speed” explain why the food served in fast food establishments is greasy and “bad” rather than some other way.  That, and simple corporate inertia.  McDonalds knows a very few things: bad burgers, fries, nuggets.  Branching out costs money; marketing (presumably they have found) brings greater immediate returns.  They rely on customer habit and brand loyalty as much as on the happiness (however shallow and fleeting) their food creates in brains to make their pitch to the fast-food-buying market.

Comment #96: MDrew  on  09/28  at  05:18 PM

As for Chipotle, I ended up with, shall we say, intestinal distress after a meal there.

I once ended up with food poisoning from Charlie Trotter’s. Your point?

Comment #97: Well, what?  on  09/28  at  05:21 PM

I’m not pretending that cooking for a family isn’t work.  It is work.  To be done well, it requires planning, skill, and effort, even if you are making simple meals.  But it’s work that most people could learn how to do, and it’s work that offers certain kinds of rewards, like being able to eat cheaper and healthier food than is generally offered at most fast food places.  And some people, like me, do take pleasure even in “workhorse” (v. gourmet) cooking, because at least cooking, unlike many other household chores (laundry, I’m looking at you!), does involve creating something that you and your family can enjoy.  There is at least the possibility of a sense of satisfaction in that work.  There is also the possibility that food preparation is something that people can do together and enjoy (some of the best conversations I have with my mother take place when we are cooking together). 

To me, the solution has to include increasing the options for healthy fast and processed food, making all fast and processed food healthier (even if not really healthy), and encouraging and facilitating healthy home cooking.  There is a ton of middle ground (I outlined some in an earlier post) and we should be looking for ways to nudge people into that middle ground, not (1) going for broke pushing gourmet organic cooking or (2) throwing up our hands and saying that because fast food offers certain conveniences we’re just stuck with it.

Comment #98: Kit-Kat  on  09/28  at  05:35 PM

I don’t think having no time has much to do with it, but I DO think stress has something to do with it.  I also think that there’s an underappreciated ease to eating out which is connected to not being able to decide what to cook, aside from the fact that “fast” food is basically designed to be an anaesthetic.  I believe there’s been a fair amount of work recently that suggests people have a “finite” amount of willpower that’s self-determined, and thus people who have to expend it continually to say, work at a job they find annoying during the day, will have less innate capacity for resisting any food that isn’t just an anaesthetic, and less mental willpower to go through the sometimes complex process of deciding what to cook and how to make it.  Making food at home isn’t trivial either—you have the option of a CSA box, Amanda, but if you buy most of your groceries at the store it does require some amount of mental input to meal plan, remember what you have stocked at home, or go out specifically to buy stuff for a recipe. 

Personally, I think the best solution here is just to do what Bittman’s already doing—teach people how to make decent food at home that requires little preparation or mental input.  Also things that make shopping “automatic” (CSA boxes, automatic grocery deliveries, etc) probably help a lot.  Fast food is mostly a passive, automatic choice and I feel like in addition to it’s crowd pleasing appeal, that’s the key reason people consume it.  To the extent that reasonably healthy food at home is also made “automatic”, people will eat healthier food at home.

Comment #99: The Main Gauche of Mild Reason  on  09/28  at  05:43 PM

There is also the possibility that food preparation is something that people can do together and enjoy (some of the best conversations I have with my mother take place when we are cooking together).

This is something that doesn’t get enough play, I think. Washing, peeling, chopping, etc. are all pretty boring tasks, but they also don’t require a whole lot of attention. It’s amazing how much the feeling of drudgery in cooking can be mitigated by listening to some music or a podcast, or talking to a friend or family member.

The same can be said for grocery shopping. I like going with my ladyfriend; waiting in line is nothing if I can playfully bicker with a loved one. If that’s not an option, headphones and a music player mean that you can rock out down the aisle on your own terms. Sure, some people may look at you funny, but fuck ‘em, you gotta do what you gotta do.

Comment #100: I, too, have an opinion!  on  09/28  at  05:55 PM

I grew up in an extended family of people who love cooking

I grew up in a family where food and dinner were battlefields.  For my dad and his family, cooking = what women-folk did to keep their man happy (and around). The thought of a man cooking dinner was literally unthinkable.

My mom, who could have been one of the women written about in the Feminine Mystique, hated being a housewife, so she’d cook the same thing 3 nights in a row, move the furniture around every week, refuse to do laundry unless we had no clean socks etc. 

So, no, I don’t have warm and fuzzy memories of meal time growing up.

Comment #101: Henry Holland  on  09/28  at  06:03 PM

It’s funny. In many ways, Japan is land of efficiency. Or at least, that’s what people think. Fast food here is anything but fast. I do go to McDonald’s with some regularity, driving out of my way to a place that is expensive and slow to get food I hate. Why? Two words: play place.

If it’s raining outside and the kids need to run around, it’s not a terrible option for me. Cheaper than many alternatives, they get to play with other kids and burn off some energy so they’ll sleep. If there were any other reasonable option for me to take them to, I would never go.

Comment #102: Matthew, Patron Saint of Affogato  on  09/28  at  06:12 PM

Reasons I eat fast food (really anything where I can have the option of picking it up, or having someone else make the food outside the home):

I can definitely relate to eating fast food as pleasure. When I worked a full time secretarial job I only had a half hour for lunch, which was just enough time to eat with my coworkers in the cafeteria, or enough time to get some fast food and walk back. I ended up getting fast food many times instead of eating my packed lunch because I simply did not want to sit at my desk during my break and deal with my ageist boomer coworkers while sitting at my computer, which I had to use for work and had corporate spyware.

When I moved, somebody fucked up the plumbing which resulted in a sewage leakage which destroyed the floor of the kitchen—which meant I couldn’t use it. I had to move out for a while and then the construction people took too long (six weeks) for the insurance company’s liking, so I had to move back in with the dust and the kitchen (no stove, oven or microwave or place to chop things) out of commission for a month. I can tell you that I ended up eating tons of fast food or restaurant food—which was just bad because it rearranged my habits terribly.

With my family, they tend to blare two televisions with two different programs during dinner time (which is super late like at around 8:45-9:10 ish) and/or go on the computer. I then have to wait til the last member of the family is home and finishes eating. Nobody is responsible for cleaning up after themselves or putting food away which means I’m cleaning the kitchen (which includes washing all of the pots by hand because they don’t go in the dishwasher or some nonsense) up at 11 pm—and then I get guilted because I’m not making breakfast for people at 7 in the morning. I also get guilted as a selfish bitch starting to put food away after 9:10.  In addition the male members of my family are actively insulting about my cooking but then won’t bother to make themselves food or take it out of the fridge themselves. My brother once told me to go kill myself over my cooking because he didn’t like it, and my family considered me the fucking problem.  I get incredible amounts of blowback for trying to make things easier or more pleasant. 

This completely turns me off from the kind of cooking my mother considers “cooking” which involves rolling out fresh dough and baking individual chapatis and making something for rice, rice, and a vegetable and yogurt—which also involves a pressure cooker. If I want to use the oven, I’ve got to take out fifteen pots from the oven which doubles as storage because she won’t install or let me install a pan rack. Salad and pasta—unacceptable. Stirfry - oh we’ll eat it but then we won’t consider it “real cooking.” A pizza I cut up the vegetables for, flavor and bake in the oven—that’s a copout. Fuck that crap, I’m lazy.

Right now, eating outside is entertainment for me—it gets me out of the house and it’s cheaper than going to the movies or traveling to see my supposed friends (for which I have to buy plane tickets or burn an entire tank of gas) or going to the museums ($20/a visit). If I’m with my family, they actually sit down to eat and I don’t have to clean up even though it might take an equal amount of time to commute eat and pay.  That and my gym membership are my indulgences.

Comment #103: Shakti  on  09/28  at  06:12 PM

*snicker*  Food desserts.  There’s a funny spelling error, Amanda.

Comment #104: Crissa  on  09/28  at  06:12 PM

I actually timed a trip through a McDonald’s drive through window because I was curious as to whether it took more time than cooking. It took four minutes. The food was absolutely disgusting and I didn’t eat much of it, and what I did eat made me feel nauseous, but it was quick. Quicker than even shopping for food would have been, much less cooking it. It wasn’t cheaper.

The solution to “People can’t afford to buy all the stuff that goes with cooking and they don’t want to cook when they’ve worked twelve hours” isn’t to throw your hands up in despair, it’s to fight for better wages and better hours along with better subsidies for healthier food and less/no subsidies for unhealthy crap. Which dovetails nicely with what liberals already support.

Comment #105: JThompson  on  09/28  at  06:18 PM

@100 I too have an opinion

I’m also considered an incredible bitch for suggesting that people pitch in to help prep or clean for meal times. Or something like “if I make food at a certain time for everyone, it’s there, and then I put it away after a certain time.”

It is my experience that healthy food takes a lot longer. White rice and white pasta take a shorter time to cook than brown rice and whole wheat pasta. Heating a pita takes less time than making bread, etc. My mother’s way of cooking involves going to no less than three different markets and cannot be accomplished without a car.

Comment #106: Shakti  on  09/28  at  06:19 PM

Well, what? I’m pretty surprised that more people here don’t seem to get where you’re coming from.  I gained almost 30 pounds at my last job.  The problem wasn’t that I don’t like cooking.  I really do.  And the problem wasn’t a lack of health education.  I’m generally a pretty healthy eater, and had been exercising much more than usual during that period of time, but really really hated my white collar job, and come lunch time had basically three options:

Eat at my desk (work on demand)
Eat in the break room (work on demand, they just had to find me first)
Eat out (escape!)

If I had a car, I probably would have had my lunch in the parking lot, but I don’t have a car.  And eating al fresco doesn’t really work most of the time in New England, not that there was anywhere within walking distance to sit.  The company was in a crappy exurb and so my options for food were not great.  And really?  When a person is so sick of sitting at their desk that they are basically willing to go sit in a car for an hour just to get away from it, that’s not really a healthy situation.  It’s just not conducive to taking care of oneself in general. 

No surprise, once I left my health rapidly improved.

Comment #107: mamram  on  09/28  at  06:25 PM

I’m going to go out on a limb and say that if your kid is watching Sesame Street, you haven’t hit the age where they are surrounded by this stuff, television or not.  Unless you plan on going Amish or home-schooling, your child will be exposed to it EVERY DAY OF THEIR LIVES.  Enjoy your freedom from Cartoon Character Tyranny while it lasts.

Sort of. She’s just turning three, but goes to full-time daycare. About half the kids in her group of 25 or so are dressed entirely in cartoon marketing. So she knows who all these characters are, but also knows that Mom and Dad think they’re garbage and that whining about wanting something with cartoon marketing on it is a quick trip to timeout.

And #75, there are good cartoon movies—my daughter is quite partial to Ponyo, which is beautiful—and there are shite cartoon movies. The difference lies primarily in whether the film was made to tell a story or to market toys at McGarbage.

Comment #108: felagund  on  09/28  at  06:26 PM

There are a bajillion places that deliver food.  It may be that you live out of their radius, but search for ‘waiter’ ‘deliver food’ etc.  You’ll be surprised how many sites that picks up - urban spoon, menu station, go waiter, etc.  And some towns have pushy, computer-made (it’s a step away from a spam site, but the info is correct) http://santacruzrestaurants.org/Santa-Cruz-Take-Out-Restaurants.php

It just takes a bit of knowledge to find the what system the local restaurants use.

...And no wonder so many posters here are so irritable if their lives are so horrible as they describe for their excuses to eat fast food.

Comment #109: Crissa  on  09/28  at  06:39 PM

That’s silly, there were some good movies/characters that they made McDonald’s toys out of.  And as much as I like their movies, Studio Ghibli is very much the Disney of Japan and does plenty of toy marketing in their own right.  I like that you’re offering me parenting advice when your kid is age 3.  *chuckles*  Ah, parenting advice, people just don’t give it out often enough…

Comment #110: Satanicpanic  on  09/28  at  07:03 PM

Satanicpanic, the fact is that the movie he references doesn’t have toys advertised here, so it’s a toy-free movie as far as an American audience is concerned.

Comment #111: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/28  at  07:14 PM

I remember having a job in the boonies (in an industrial park near an industrial port) where there was literally nothing but fast food joints for miles around, unless you spent half your lunch hour (!) driving somewhere else. I stopped eating at those places after a few months, instead I planned ahead. Yes, I shopped, cooked (when necessary, I made sandwiches as well), and I took my lunch to work. Nothing fancy, I wasn’t trying to make anything but what would sustain me during the day. I cooked when I got home, too. I understand the desire not to cook (I was awful at it for years, too), but I did it anyway and got better at it quick. More, too, I got food I knew what was in (I’m one of those people to whom cilantro tastes utterly vile), and after awhile I didn’t spend nearly the amount of time I did at first. I wasn’t bothered by grocery shopping, either, since I wasn’t a TV watcher, or inveterate socializer.


The food made now (not just fast food, but any frozen prepared meal ISTM, has a nasty brew of sugar and salt (the fat was always there) to make the meal “taste better”. I have fast food about 3 times a year now, mostly for college-era nostalgia.

Comment #112: mndean  on  09/28  at  07:21 PM

That’s silly, there were some good movies/characters that they made McDonald’s toys out of.  And as much as I like their movies, Studio Ghibli is very much the Disney of Japan and does plenty of toy marketing in their own right.  I like that you’re offering me parenting advice when your kid is age 3.  *chuckles*  Ah, parenting advice, people just don’t give it out often enough…

My oldest is 5, and simply telling her something is garbage? Wasted words is what those are. I can’t imagine where she gets her stubborn streak from (subtle hint: both of her parents). Thankfully she’s not that bad with her materialism, but she remembers everything for years. There will be hell to pay if she doesn’t get her Licca doll with hair styling tools for her upcoming birthday, I know. Tantrums and sulking for days, and we do not spoil her. She does not get everything she wants, and she lets us know it in no uncertain terms.

Long story short, what works wonderfully well for one kid does not for the next. Parental advice should indeed be given out more.

Comment #113: Matthew, Patron Saint of Affogato  on  09/28  at  07:25 PM

I actually *like* washing and chopping and slicing and dicing.  It’s kind of zen.  I listen to music and unwind from the day.  Or, sometimes my husband opens a bottle of wine and we chat about our days while I slice and dice and he sorts the mail or pays the bills.  But mostly, it’s my time to be in my own head for a little while. 

Also, I was very conscious of my cooking tonight—fried rice using leftover brown rice from yesterday’s meal, used up the bacon and shallots in the fridge, took under 30 minutes start to finish.  Also, yummy—lots of garlic (I keep a jar of minced garlic in the fridge at all times), a dash of chili sesame oil, and lashings of black pepper.  We’re eating it on the couch while watching baseball.

Comment #114: Kit-Kat  on  09/28  at  08:00 PM

@Crissa: A large chunk of the country either has no access to healthy delivery because they can’t afford it, don’t live near it, or live near it and it won’t come where they are because they live in a “dangerous” area. (Read: Not white enough)

Comment #115: JThompson  on  09/28  at  08:22 PM

Suppose that someone knits fabulous outfits.  And that person complained about how people shouldn’t waste all that time on shopping, trying on outfits, driving to the mall.  They should just knit their own clothes. Hey, its not that hard.  You can make simple shawl in the same amount of time!  I doubt many would accept that premise.

YES. THANK YOU. You know, I really love to build things and I’ve built probably half the furniture in our house by this point, as well as some outdoor furniture. Why would anyone go to IKEA for furniture? You have to drive there, walk around, load up the furniture, bring the furniture home, and set up the furniture. It takes a whole day. Whereas I can build a bookcase or table or cupboard in a day. I’m not a craftsman with years of experience or a huge workshop, I taught myself practical carpentry in about a year and made usable furniture on my first try. Generations ago, there wasn’t any of this IKEA bullshit. People made their furniture. They didn’t depend on factories in China to make them pressboard crap.

Except, see, saying all that would make me a dick. Because I recognize that people value their time for various things, and not everyone values their time and energy for building stuff, and it was an effort for me to learn what I know now and it’s labor to build things. I recognize that people want to have furniture that is not within my simple-self-taught abilities to make, furniture that would require a lot more experience and equipment to make.

In addition, the “generations ago people MADE their furniture” bit would be me willfully ignoring historical reality, because furniture building has almost always been specialized except for those at the subsistence level who hewed things out of logs and so on.

Tyro snottily says:

I am a grownup. Grownups manage their own households, clean their apartments, do their laundry, and cook for themselves.

Not historically. Historically over a lot of periods, as others have already pointed out, the job of cooking was something you had someone specifically to do. Either it was considered a full time job for the woman of the house, or the woman of the house had the job of supervising the cook who did the labor (and the help who cleaned the rooms). And bachelors often lived in “rooms” where the landlady cooked and served the food (and cleaned the rooms).

The idea that cooking for oneself or one’s family is a basic adult responsibility is a very new one. The idea that cooking for one’s family is a moral imperative is even newer. It’s not a moral imperative any more than making one’s own clothes or one’s own furniture.

Comment #116: kristin  on  09/28  at  08:26 PM

A lot of women, and I include myself in this category, are so incredibly possessive of the kitchen that men can’t help if they want to.

Oh, yes, this is me.  I love food, I love cooking, and I get a little pissy when my kitchen things are out of place.  OK, I get a LOT pissy.  I work about 75 hours a week from home, cooking is my play-time.  I dunno, the chopping is cathartic, and the eating is..well, it DOES relieve stress.

My 19 year-old son, however, recently graduated from his high school’s Culinary Arts program.  He holds down two part-time jobs, and insists on getting into the kitchen to cook what he’s interested in, because it helps him de-stress.  We have had…discussions...about the kitchen, but I have learned to back off and let him have time in there, too.  He and I do the grocery shopping together, and have two grocery stores (ALDI and Kroger) within walking distance, and a Farmer’s Market a short bus ride away.  The four of us eat dinner together every night, even if it means that dinner isn’t until 9:30 or so, because sometimes dinner is the only time we get together as a family.  Husband and Younger Monster appreciate having two cooking enthusiasts in the house.

Yes, I do realize this is an incredibly privileged position to be in. 

That said, I understand the appeal of fast food.  Sometimes even a fast stir fry feels like too much effort and we just want something brainless and effortless, with little to no cleanup involved.  Sometimes your brain is just too full to yank a dinner idea out of it, and it purrs at you about how goooooood some hot salty fries would be, or why not just order pizza, or hey, how about a cheeseburger?  It IS way more complex than just convenience, or just eating for stress relief, or just for speed.  What appeals to me about fast food on occasion (“I want someone else to make the effort, my brain hurts too much to think.”) is different from why, say, my husband wants trash food (“Mmmmm…salt and grease!”).

Five years ago, we started having a “no effort” night to satisfy those desires.  Bread, cheese, fruit…and a couple buckets of wings delivered from the pizza joint up the street.  Add a couple bottles of wine and NCIS, and we have an evening where the most effort that needs to be made is plopping everything down on a big cutting board and carrying it downstairs.

Comment #117: MaggieB  on  09/28  at  08:26 PM

I say all this, btw, as someone who really likes cooking and does a lot of it for fun. But it’s labor. The whole managing-a-kitchen-and-feeding-a-family thing is labor, from beginning to end, and judybrowni is right when she says that pretending it’s not is insulting.

Comment #118: kristin  on  09/28  at  08:30 PM

I have to laugh at the comparison between knitting and cooking. Seriously? Knitting a scarf takes days. All you have to do to prepare a healthy dinner is roast a chicken and nuke some frozen veggies. Maybe make minute rice, too. Roasting a chicken is as easy as putting salt and pepper on it and putting it in the oven. The comparison is totally invalid.

Comment #119: Jenny Dreadful  on  09/28  at  08:39 PM

Roasting a chicken is as easy as putting salt and pepper on it and putting it in the oven.

And then waiting for it to be done, depending on size of chicken.  A person can easily order takeout from work before they leave, swing by the place, and bring it home in the time it takes to cook a chicken.

Even easier if you have internet access at work, money and someone at home, to just order the food online and it’s there when you get home.  No waiting!

I do think that fast food shouldn’t be a death sentence.  There are times where it is impractical to cook and a takeout meal is preferable.

Comment #120: SporkeyO  on  09/28  at  08:53 PM

This is true in at least some cases, but I think if you can provide sufficient other rewards (retaining convenience, providing an appealing taste, providing some kind of social cache, perhaps?) then people can and do train themselves away from the truly nastiest stuff.

That already exists, which is why you see the rich, upper middle class, and *upwardly mobile* middle class eating healthy despite the money suck (for the rich) and the time suck (for the upper and striving middle classes).  Being fit and trim pays dividends far beyond the health benefits, which is why it’s worth it for the rich and upwardly mobile, but not for the poor or lower middle class.  The latter two groups aren’t exactly looking at great life expectancies even with a healthy diet.

Amanda’s dismissal of how much time cooking for yourself takes vs. eating fast food reminds me of how convinced she is that washing dishes by hand takes less time than using a dishwasher.  Until someone gets out a stopwatch and conclusively proves that people are wasting their time on something they *perceive* as being faster, I’m going to conclude that they’re more likely making rational choices.

And the supposed fast-food-restaurant time suck is a red herring anyway.  Ever looked at what *other* people are buying at the grocery store?  Almost entirely convenience foods.  McDs, Burger King, and KFC are mostly reserved for on-the-go eating, for a night on the town (as pathetic as that is), or for people who live in the worst food deserts.

Comment #121: keshmeshi  on  09/28  at  09:22 PM

And if I’m super hungry and don’t want to wait, I don’t roast a chicken, I pick something up that’s easy or I eat leftovers. The point is figuring out how to have food ready and available that’s healthy before you get hungry. For the longest time, my boyfriend was really unable to do this. “What do you want to have for dinner tonight?” “I dunno, I’m not hungry.” “But you will be in seven hours, probably. So what should we eat?” I’m not saying it’s not a skill, or that there aren’t easier things in the world than cooking, because of course there are. But eating nothing but tater tots and Michelina’s microwavable kitchen dinners isn’t a workable solution. After a while you learn to eye things at the grocery store that would work for multiple meals. You learn how to improvise.

Comment #122: Jenny Dreadful  on  09/28  at  09:27 PM

Okay, in the interest of actually offering useful advice, I recently learned that you can steam vegetables in the microwave. This knowledge has increased my vegetable intake tenfold! You just take a microwave safe dish, put the vegetable in there, and cover tightly with plastic wrap. Poke a little hole in it for a vent. Depending on how much you microwave, you’ll need to nuke it for three to eight minutes. If I do a pound of broccoli it takes about eight minutes, but you have to check it halfway through, because your microwave might be different than mine. You can microwave cabbage, cauliflower, and even spaghetti squash! For spaghetti squash, cut it in half, and take out the seeds. Place each side face down on a plate and cover with plastic wrap. You should only do one half at a time. Put a vent in it, and microwave it for about eight minutes. When it’s pretty tender with a fork, it’s done. It is the easiest thing ever, and delicious! And insanely cheap. Where I live, a pound of broccoli is about a dollar at the supermarket. A whole chicken is between five and seven bucks. This easily serves a family of four, is extremely easy, and very healthy.

Comment #123: Jenny Dreadful  on  09/28  at  09:36 PM

My kids started expecting us to be more elaborate cooks - which sort of works when there are two adults and two teens in the house, but still takes time.  The kids hate fast food, which is both good and bad, depending. When my husband started working outside the home, we made the kids a deal:

1) we would make up a menu and keep basics in the house
2) Each person - including kids - would cook one weekday meal a week
3) adults would make fancier stuff, but no complaints if it wasn’t ready at 7 or 7:30
4) we would eat out once a week

No more complaining!  They boys do simple, somewhat prefab stuff - pasta, fried rice, stir fry - and I have a lot more energy on my one night to chop up the veggies for a veggie massaman curry or pull together a chicken gumbo with rice or a Guinness beef stew.

One positive consequence - the boys are learning how to cook! I was dreading it one night when my son informed me on my way home that he had several friends over, knowing that I’d have to pull together a large meal quickly.  When I arrived, my boys were busy in the kitchen and had assigned their guests tasks like “get drinks out” and “set the table” while they put together a healthy feast for eight - Italian sausage and breaded chicken breast pieces, pasta, steamed broccoli, three sauces.  SCORE!

It isn’t cooking that is hard - it is the expectations of fancy feast that are vexing.  You can meet it halfway, even if opening a couple of jars isn’t exactly making it all from scratch.  Most people just don’t have the time - and too many people don’t get much help from other family members who are plenty capable of pitching in.

Comment #124: Ms Kate  on  09/28  at  10:04 PM

Might I also point out that buying things in Costco size amounts that make for quick meal prep is more difficult and potentially wasteful when you are 1 or 2 and not 2+2 teenboys.

Comment #125: Ms Kate  on  09/28  at  10:08 PM


  kristin at 116: The idea of supper being a meal with a meat, vegetable, and grain is also relatively recent. For most of human history, most humans sustained themselves on a monotonous diet of some sort of grain or tuber variously prepared supplemented with the occasional vegetable or fruit. In Europe and the Middle East, dairy and salted meat or fish were sometimes eaten as well. A diet that didn’t revolve around carbs for most people didn’t exist before the late 19th or early 20th century.

Comment #126: Lee  on  09/28  at  10:45 PM

Roasting a chicken is as easy as putting salt and pepper on it and putting it in the oven.

Why bother when you can buy a rotisserie roaster from Costco for the same money as a raw chicken, and work it into several meals, starting when you call home from the checkout line and tell those at home to get a tortilla bar ready.

Comment #127: Ms Kate  on  09/28  at  10:59 PM

“Seriously? Knitting a scarf takes days.”

Not for me.  Especially not if I’m making a simple scarf like what is generally available in stores.  I often find knitting my own garments (especially winter accessories, like scarves, hats, and gloves) easier and faster than trying to find what I want in stores, and the finished product is generally of much better quality. But it would be sort of ridiculous for me to imply that therefore, if you find the effort associated with making your own clothes prohibitive, that it must be because you are either doing it wrong or making bullshit excuses.

Comment #128: mamram  on  09/28  at  11:29 PM

Another reason that steaming vegetables in the microwave is awesome: according to a cookbook I own, microwaving actually causes less vitamin breakdown than steaming over the stove, because the vegetables spend less time at high temperatures.  I guess if one is using a super hot stove, it might be the other way around.

Comment #129: mamram  on  09/28  at  11:38 PM

Maybe people like me with no kids, more disposable time and income, and not soul-crushing jobs just can’t satisfactorily understand these issues; I can believe that.  But apparently most other people are too exhausted or complacent to change.  I don’t know how anyone even commented on the thread during work hours.

Comment #130: ganews_  on  09/29  at  12:33 AM

I don’t do fast food, mostly because I cannot afford it- I’m usually too broke to buy something off of Mickey Dees dollar menu.  Plus, I live in a very rural environment, so if I *do* want some fast food, it involves driving a minimum of 40 miles (one way) to the nearest civilized area. 

I do 99.998% of my own cooking.  If I don’t have the ingredients, I improvise..or do without.  And I’m not too picky to turn my nose up at things other people wouldn’t eat.  I fish, I hunt, and I’ll even scavenge (fresh roadkill in the colder months has put a meal on the table more than once).

Comment #131: Zephira, Queen of the Space Weasels  on  09/29  at  12:50 AM

Well, ganews, aren’t you snotty?

Comment #132: judybrowni  on  09/29  at  12:51 AM

Actually, the primarily grain diet for humans didn’t start until farming did.

Hunter and gatherer humans ate a protein heavy mix (although most of their protein was from rabbits easily caught in snares, fish or other small game) supplemented with berries, fruit, and vegetables.

Consequently, the hunter gathers were actually better fed, taller, and healthier (lived longer) than the humans tied to one place and primarily eating grains, with now-and-then protein.

Comment #133: judybrowni  on  09/29  at  12:57 AM

Jenny, you just have to wrap potatoes in plastic wrap, do NOT poke holes in it, and VOILA! baked potatoes in less than 10 minutes, depending on the size and number you’re making at one time.

For broccoli, you can just use a wet paper towel that completely covers the broccoli crown,  I don’t know about any other veggies vs. steaming, because we tend to eat veggies in combination with something else or in my wifes’ cuisine (Ilocano), which disdains mere steamed veggies.

I don’t know how anyone even commented on the thread during work hours.

People are creatures of habit, and, as I’ve experienced on several posts here, past and recent, will react with hostility when you make suggestions that would pull them out of their comfort zone.

That’s the hard part, being adaptable without resenting the effort to do so.

Comment #134: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/29  at  01:00 AM

Interesting: every woman on this thread who’s had the job of feeding a family reports that meal preparation is labor intensive, and not “easy.” Unless and until they’ve been able to convince a partner or children to throw in their labor.

The single-os can afford to be snotty about it.

When I work at home, primarily, I cook. When I had a boyfriend to wash the dishes and we both worked outside the apartment, I made two meals a day (and sometimes my own lunch), but my cooking was pretty basic for just the two of us. (And my job wasn’t particularly soul sucking, or strenuous.)

When I was working at home, while boyfriend wasn’t, I worked my way through a Chinese cookbook.

I live alone now, and a decade or so ago I finally bought a dishwasher, for the first time in my life.

Don’t like microwaves, don’t have a food processor, but even just cooking for myself I get sick of it, at a certain point. Although I cook in large batches, and portion that out.

I’ve seen the work of the women in my life who had to provide for a husband and children, first when they worked at home, and then when they also worked outside the home. And they had the benefit of mothers who taught them how to cook, not something a couple generations of working women had the time or the luxury to do.

So the Mark Bittmans of the world can go screw themselves, if they think cooking at home is easy.

Comment #135: judybrowni  on  09/29  at  01:41 AM

Who fucking cares when primarily grain eating happened?  It happened because you can store fucking grain for years, and you can’t do that even with dried meats.

Cooking at home is easy, and your whining is stupid.  You come up with excuses in every thread to disdain Amanda’s position, and never accept her points as even being valid.  No one said cooking wonderfully soul-sustaining meals was easy.  Just that cooking is easy, and you can have ‘comfort food’ in the kitchen, readily, without the load of fats and sugars in conventional fast food.

Look at the recipes that the major restaurants use - they have corn syrup in the mayo and wheat in the special sauce.  There’s no reason for corn syrup and wheat products to be in any of these things, especially not something which is ‘egg+oil+blender’.

Comment #136: Crissa  on  09/29  at  03:52 AM

Another thing I would include to this point about the easiness of “fast food” - here (at least, I don’t know about in the US) there is a HUGE range of food available in supermarkets that you just need to take home and microwave.  3mins in a microwave is not a huge time or effort commitment, requiring little equipment (just the microwave) and less skill.  This huge range of food includes both healthy and unhealthy options.

I would like to see a comparison of how many people eat this sort of food, vs how many people eat take-out fast food (like McDonalds), and what the market share of more vs less health (although you’d have to codify “healthy” which is kinda hard) types are.  I think that would eliminate much of the “convinience” argument for fast food from the discussion.

I’m massively too lazy/lacking-in-time to do from-scratch at-home cooking.  It requires far too much forward-planning when in the shop (you have to remember all the many things you need, and whether you have them) and far too much time to actually do on a regular basis (the important question is how long it will take to get food on the table from the time I walk in the door, not how much time I have to spend actively cooking; saying “throw it in a crockpot and ignore it for two hours” ignores the fact that I am not at home two hours before I want to eat it to do so, I usually want to eat within 10-30mins of arriving home so roasting a chicken is not a possibility there!) for the kinds of food that I want to eat.  We usually eat things that are half way between “ready meals” and “cooking at home”  - things like buying a jar of pre-made sauce to add to meat, or pre-prepared cuts of meat served with frozen chips (fries).

On a personal level I have trouble with the notion that people are eating at McDonalds every day because they love McDonalds food so much.  Because personally I find it so disgusting I will refuse to eat it unless doing so really is the only option.  I think it’s worth thinking about how people (in large numbers) acquire food related preferences - I expect (like most things) it is a combination of genetics and upbringing; should we? can we? how can we? manipulate the preference development of the next generation to steer them towards more health options?  I don’t think it’s a forgone conclusion that greasy, salt-laden fast-food is just something “everyone” finds so delicious that it’s hard to resist (although it is clear that a lot of people DO find it delicious).

Comment #137: naath  on  09/29  at  05:50 AM

  Okay, judybrowni point but my point still stands, for a good chunk of human history the main diet revolved around a grain or tuber. One of my biggest pet peeves about the food reformers is that they are really ahistorical in their analysis of the cuisine of the past. Before the late 19th and early 20th century, the majority of humans ate a very monotonous diet that was often poor in quantity and quality. It was not a diet filled with local, organic fruits, vegetables, dairy, and meat. Consequently, the rise of the varied diet coincides with the rise of agricultural capitalism and processed foods, i.e. canning.

Comment #138: Lee  on  09/29  at  07:39 AM

I do pretty much all the shopping, cooking and cleanup for myself, my wife and our daughter. And I do this with a full-time job. It’s not that hard. Once a week to the farmer’s market and once to the grocery store become kid-entertainment excursions. I don’t work standing up, so I very much enjoy chopping and cooking, plus the kidlet can sit on the countertop and ask me what I’m doing and pretend to help. Ms. F never learned to cook when she was younger, so I do that and she fixes stuff around the house. Now she’s sorta kinda learning to cook so she makes something about once a week. So it’s not always womens work, though I’ll stipulate that it’s generally coded as such.

Comment #139: felagund  on  09/29  at  09:03 AM

Old, you act like I never have. Before I became a writer, I commuted to work, usually shot 30 minutes each way, past many fast food places. Cooking was still easier, even if I had to stop at the store. Fast food places require interaction with lots of noisy people. They’re endured, not enjoyed. Cooking is quieter. Like I said, if you forward bullshit arguments, you’re more interested in scoring points than making change.
Comment #8: Amanda Marcotte on 09/28 at 11:20 AM

But your argument as stated (it takes too long to get dressed and pick up fast food) was bogus for many people.  Doesn’t mean I disagree with the idea that fast food is bad, or that some people use the argument when they don’t have a basis to, but it’s valid for a lot of people.

Fast food places require interaction with one or maybe two people if you use the drive-thru, and they are there to take your money and give you your stuff.  That’s a big part of its charm to introverts like me who don’t always look forward to human interaction of any kind at the end of a long day.

I, personally, pretty much never eat fast food and rarely eat restaurant food.  I like cooking.  So I don’t have a reason to use what you think is a bogus argument.

But not everyone likes to cook, not everyone has the time or energy or skills, so I think a small part of the solution includes not making everyone cook if they don’t want to, and making it possible for those non-cookers to get good food at a reasonable price. 

If you look at critics of the cities back in the old days, one thing they complained about was that women didn’t spend their time cooking, anyone could just go to the automat or a diner and get a meal.  Sure, that meant women could work longer hours which benefited industry.  But it still meant they weren’t required to spend every waking moment working.

Comment #140: oldfeminist  on  09/29  at  09:37 AM

Processed foods and “fast” foods are always going to be more expensive than their home-cooked counterparts, simply because you have to add other people’s labor to the cost.  Either ingredients will suffer or prices will rise.  That’s the only way to balance the equation.
Comment #37: Zifnab on 09/28 at 12:34 PM

I never said I expected fast food to be equal in frugality to homecooked.  Just that when I need to pay for convenience, I would like to get food that isn’t crap.

Those people who buy fast food are already paying a lot more per nutrient (sometimes an infinite amount as the denominator goes to 0) than those who cook at home.  If they have the choice of something not crap, maybe they will take it.  Amanda does with her 7-11 visits.

Comment #141: oldfeminist  on  09/29  at  09:48 AM

<quote>The time spent getting dressed, driving, waiting to order, waiting for food, and driving home would have been more than enough time to cook something simple.</quote>

Most people (a) don’t magically have food in their house and therefore need to get dressed, drive, get items, wait in line to pay, and drive home before they can start the process of “cooking something simple” and (b) are already dressed and out of the house.

Comment #142: Theaetetus  on  09/29  at  10:24 AM

I don’t know how anyone even commented on the thread during work hours.

I was home sick, as it happened. 

But yeah, look around dude. American life kinda blows. A lot. For most people. The people on this thread are mostly much luckier than average. Everyone jumped on my comment about work lunches, but I also noted that dammit, people are tired and angry and resentful.

And then some smug bastard with a peachy life comes up and says, “you should really work harder and tolerate less daily enjoyment for some benefit that will take years to become tangible!/some abstract virtue that you might not even find compelling or reasonable.”

And miserable, strained, stretched, resentful people quite naturally respond, “shove it.”

Comment #143: Well, what?  on  09/29  at  10:46 AM

Zifnab @ 37 has a good point about cost - one I came close to but realize I didn’t say straight out in the previous thread.  To be a progressive, really, you have to be willing to pay more for prepared food if you expect the ingredients to be any good.  If you aren’t, you are just trying to take advantage of someone else being desperate enough to work for next to nothing to make your food.  That, IMO, makes you not a progressive.

Comment #144: helen w. h.  on  09/29  at  10:51 AM

I love cooking, but I am hopeless at cleaning.  Cooking is always messy.  This leads me to eat out quite a lot.  I have all the time in the world, but planning meals stresses me out quite a lot.  Considering what is yummy. what is healthy, what both my spouse and I like, and what’s in season overwhelms me a lot.  I’m easily overwhelmed, though, as I often can’t make a decision as to where to eat out.  I skip meals because nothing healthyish sounds good or feasible.  And I can’t be the only person who starts to panic when she’s hungry, “I’ll never be able to make food before I starve to death!”

Comment #145: saraeanderson  on  09/29  at  11:03 AM

Cooking at home is easy, and your whining is stupid.

And, Chrissa, your privilege is fairly REEKING off the page here.

Comment #146: Ms Kate  on  09/29  at  11:07 AM

“Cooking at home is easy, and your whining is stupid.  You come up with excuses in every thread to disdain Amanda’s position, and never accept her points as even being valid.”

This is a nice example of why these threads spiral into a defensive mess.  I think a lot of us are under the impression that if we’re talking about how to get people in general to adopt whatever healthy habit, it makes sense to talk about why people DON’T adopt it.  When Amanda says, “adopting healthy habit X is easy!” and somebody else says, “that may be so, but here is why I still don’t do it,” the implication (if I’m understanding correctly) is that perhaps there are a lot of people who don’t do thing X for the same reason, and that any movement that is trying to increase the likelihood that people will do thing X needs to address it. 

But instead of responding to these comments with respect to the larger problem, there are a number of commenters who seem to think that the conversation is about talking (shaming?) individual people into abandoning their current way of doing things, and that people who volunteer their reasons are “whining” and making “excuses.”  And while I obviously don’t know what’s going on inside anybody’s head, it starts to look like these specific commenters are much less concerned with discussing how to make healthy choices easier than they are with judging individuals for perceived moral failings.  I mean, if the concern were the former, then it would make sense to understand why people don’t do healthy things, even if the reasons are really just excuses, right?  It would make sense to understand those excuses and find ways to work around them so that healthy habits become the clear best option.  Instead, individuals are attacked, accused of whining, and like, told to buy a slow cooker or something.

Comment #147: mamram  on  09/29  at  11:16 AM

“Cooking at home is easy, and your whining is stupid.  You come up with excuses in every thread to disdain Amanda’s position, and never accept her points as even being valid.”

This is a nice piece of evidence of why these threads spiral into a defensive mess.  I think a lot of us are under the impression that if we’re talking about how to get people in general to adopt whatever healthy habit, it makes sense to talk about why people DON’T adopt it.  When Amanda says, “adopting healthy habit X is easy!” and somebody else says, “that may be so, but here is why I still don’t do it,” the implication (if I’m understanding correctly) is that perhaps there are a lot of people (in general) who don’t do thing X for the same reason, and that any movement that is trying to increase the likelihood that people will do thing X needs to address it.  This is why you see a number of commenters saying things like, “I have pretty healthy habits, but when I didn’t/don’t, here’s why.”

But instead of responding to these comments with respect to the larger problem, there are a number of commenters who seem to think that the conversation is about talking (shaming?) individual people into abandoning their current way of doing things, and that people who volunteer their reasons are “whining” and making “excuses” (a million value judgments wrapped up in that one).  And while I obviously don’t know what’s going on inside anybody’s head, it starts to look like these specific commenters are much less concerned with making healthy habits the easy choice than they are with judging individuals for perceived moral failings.  I mean, if the concern were people in general, then it would make sense to understand why people don’t do healthy things, even if the reasons are really just excuses, right?  It would make sense to understand those excuses and find ways to work around them so that healthy habits become the clear best option.  Instead, individuals are attacked, and like, told to buy a slow cooker or something.

Comment #148: mamram  on  09/29  at  11:17 AM

Oh crap, double post.  Please ignore the comment at 148.  Sorry about that.

Comment #149: mamram  on  09/29  at  11:18 AM

Shakti - if they were going to call me a selfish bitch anyway, I would just make myself a sandwich or whatever I wanted and leave them to fend for themselves.  If they complained, fuck them.  It’s not like they are your children (from your description) and they can take care of themselves, or not.  Why yes, I really am a bitch, at least when the people I’m dealling with are selfish assholes. 
The standard response to whining/complaining at my house is “If you didn’t have to cook it, don’t complain and be thankful.”  Even when it was kids, whine got a “eat what’s there or get yourself a P&J sandwich”.  Even if I had wanted to, I didn’t have the energy, time or money to make multiple meals.  I also did not have $20 dollars a day for McDs/Taco Time.

Comment #150: helen w. h.  on  09/29  at  11:59 AM

mamram:

I think a lot of us are under the impression that if we’re talking about how to get people in general to adopt whatever healthy habit, it makes sense to talk about why people DON’T adopt it.  When Amanda says, “adopting healthy habit X is easy!” and somebody else says, “that may be so, but here is why I still don’t do it,” the implication (if I’m understanding correctly) is that perhaps there are a lot of people (in general) who don’t do thing X for the same reason, and that any movement that is trying to increase the likelihood that people will do thing X needs to address it.  This is why you see a number of commenters saying things like, “I have pretty healthy habits, but when I didn’t/don’t, here’s why.”

Yes! 

Even assuming that the commenters explaining how easy it is to cook are really being helpful and nothing else?  Just because we’ve solved the problem here on this blog doesn’t automatically mean we have successfully educated and freed the masses.

And I submit we haven’t solved the problem at all.  Several people here have real reasons to want food without having to have prepared it themselves.  The people who eat the food those people prepare, get it prepared for them.

Comment #151: oldfeminist  on  09/29  at  12:27 PM

I mean, if the concern were people in general, then it would make sense to understand why people don’t do healthy things, even if the reasons are really just excuses, right?

NEVER!

Kidding. But I do think that when people talk about “food reformers,” they might mean any one of at least three distinct groups.

There’s people who want a population that, overall, is being better-fed than at present. Even if that just means the stuff they get at the drive-thru won’t kill them anymore.

And then there’s people with this idea that unless people are all eating better because they are individually making optimal, non-consumerist, self-reliant choices, it’s still kind of like “cheating.” Like, they’ll take it, but they won’t be happy about it.

And then finally there is the “Every time you open a jar of Newman’s Own spaghetti sauce instead of making sauce from scratch with heirloom tomatoes you grew yourself and freezing it in batches GOD KILLS A RAINBOW PUPPY” crowd. These are the minority but damn are they ever loud.

 

Comment #152: Well, what?  on  09/29  at  12:33 PM

By the by, it’s nice that some upthread guy cooks for his family, but he apparently didn’t read the link I supplied further up about the studies that show that in general, women still do the majority of family work.

They do the majority of the family work, a little less than 20 years ago, and the men a little more than 20 years ago: but, again, and again, and again, women who work 8 hours outside the home with husband and children, come home to a second nearly fulltime job.

Which is all I’ve argued: that preparing food for the family isn’t easy, when women have one fulltime job outside the home, and another within.

That the rise in convenience food parallels the rise in married women (or women with families) also working fulltime outside the home. What a fucking coincidence!

And the shaming (“cooking is easy! Why don’t you lazy bitches do it more?”) ignores that reality, and is insulting.

And I have a friend who did the family cooking (and shopping) for 30 years, while she did the child care, cleaning and washing dishes.

He worked at home and she was a hands on mother. As well as friends who had other means of divying up the family work.

I’ve also have the Cassandra’s curse of being one of the oldest on these threads, who saw it all happening in real time: the arc from fulltime housewives to working mothers, over the last 60 years.

So the Mark Bittman’s of this world can go screw themselves.

Comment #153: judybrowni  on  09/29  at  01:25 PM

“The people who eat the food those people prepare, get it prepared for them.”

This is an interesting point.  A number of commenters here have mentioned that they are the ones who prepare food for the rest of their households.  Is being dependent on a significant other somehow better than being dependent on a restaurant?  At least at a restaurant you pay for your food and you tip the person who serves you.

Comment #154: mamram  on  09/29  at  01:32 PM

This is a nice piece of evidence of why these threads spiral into a defensive mess.  I think a lot of us are under the impression that if we’re talking about how to get people in general to adopt whatever healthy habit, it makes sense to talk about why people DON’T adopt it.  When Amanda says, “adopting healthy habit X is easy!” and somebody else says, “that may be so, but here is why I still don’t do it,” the implication (if I’m understanding correctly) is that perhaps there are a lot of people (in general) who don’t do thing X for the same reason, and that any movement that is trying to increase the likelihood that people will do thing X needs to address it.  This is why you see a number of commenters saying things like, “I have pretty healthy habits, but when I didn’t/don’t, here’s why.”

This is very much the conversation I was having over lunch at an international public health conference.  A women from NIEHS was talking about a couple of intervention studies where they were teaching low income people how to cook, shop, and make better choices for their families and selves.  They ran into constant barriers with time, money, access to decent quality food, and ingrained habits and cultural habits as well.  Some would call these “excuses”, but they are more properly called barriers.  To say otherwise smacks of privilege and judgment - and, ultimately does NOT solve the problems or surmount the barriers.

Comment #155: Ms Kate  on  09/29  at  01:38 PM

ganews_ @130:

FTFY

I don’t know how anyone even commented on the thread during MY work hours.

 

Comment #156: rain  on  09/29  at  01:44 PM

Good point, rain.  Not everyone works days.

Comment #157: helen w. h.  on  09/29  at  01:58 PM

Actually, not everyone commenting is even on the same side of the planet, much less in the same time zone.

Comment #158: helen w. h.  on  09/29  at  01:58 PM

Is being dependent on a significant other somehow better than being dependent on a restaurant?  At least at a restaurant you pay for your food and you tip the person who serves you.

I’ll tell you a true story.

A friend of my noble spouse, like her, from the Philippines, married an American who was serving in the Armed Forces in her natal land.

They come over here, he doesn’t cook for himself, she does all the cooking.  So far, so good.

She manages the money for the household, doling out gas money for Mr. Wonderful(let’s call him that for now), and paying the bills, etc.

Mr. Wonderful had a craving for Burger King, so he uses some of his ‘gas money’ to pay for his fast-food fix.

That means his car is so low on gas he has to ask her for more gas money, and his secret is then revealed.

No more gas money, unless he gives up Burger King.

And that’s what happened.

Every time you open a jar of Newman’s Own spaghetti sauce instead of making sauce from scratch with heirloom tomatoes you grew yourself and freezing it in batches GOD KILLS A RAINBOW PUPPY

Yes, that’s just what I intended when I mentioned how easy stir-fry is to prepare in the other thread.

You damn mind-reader you!

Comment #159: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/29  at  02:21 PM

I don’t know how anyone even commented on the thread during work hours.

Yes, because commenting on a thread on the internet, possibly during a free moment at work, possibly when they’re not supposed to be doing so, and possibly while they’re not working, takes exactly as much time as it does to cook a meal, you fucking genius.

Comment #160: Atheist Feminazi  on  09/29  at  02:30 PM

And also, there is something malfunctioning about someone who didn’t leave their desk, buy food, go home, and cook it, in the same amount of time that it would have taken to post the comment.  That makes TOTAL AND COMPLETE SENSE.

Comment #161: Atheist Feminazi  on  09/29  at  02:37 PM

Because yes, everyone posts comments on blogs three times a day for a half hour to hour or so, seven days a week, 52 weeks a year, instead of making all those meals for themselves—and THEIR FAMILIES—after working eight hours outside their home and commuting and being faced with the care of their children, clothing, and cleaning.

Stupid bitches.

Preparing food for an entire family is work that was once considered a job, but now women are expected to do that job on top of their careers and the housework and the child care, but not only are they not given credit for preparing the food or wrangling the food(for which they earned the money) they’re being shamed and ridiculed for not doing so as the priviledged few without all that extra work piled on their plates.

I guess what I actually have is the reverse Cassandra curse: I’ve lived long enough to have witnessed an arc in behavior and attitudenal change, for which those who only know their own situation and time, stop up their ears.

Comment #162: judybrowni  on  09/29  at  02:52 PM

Yeah, Ms Kate... I worked with co-workers trying to get by with 2-4 hours of sleep a day, just so the daughter can try out for the cheerleading squad in high school.  Them outfits don’t just pay for themselves!

So, when I’m going along with Crissa here, I’m saying that the bulk of the people who are commenting here have far fewer “barriers” to changing their habits than the mass of people who *really* need the help.  Pretty much until replicators can be put into every house, cooking, cleaning, maintenance, and many other tasks are necessary skills.  Not only because you can do these things for yourself, but so you can evaluate a wide range of options.  Someone who can’t cook, also probably can’t estimate whether something is wholesome, well made, or even worth eating at all.  Someone who can’t cook, can’t cook for other people who might find a tastier world beyond McNuggets.  There are broader social ramifications.

We didn’t have home economics classes for silly reasons, ya know?

Comment #163: shah8  on  09/29  at  03:28 PM

I find that it varies with energy level. No energy- once I ate an apple for dinner. Couldn’t get up. Low energy- fast food. Med energy- make spaghetti. I have messed this up. I had to eat crunchy spaghetti. High energy- try a stirfry.  It’s inedible >_<. My mom is a good cook, but me…

Comment #164: shannon  on  09/29  at  03:53 PM

Amanda, I’m not sure your argument holds together when part of its underpinning is the assertion that eating out takes as much time as cooking, because I think the circumstance you’re envisioning doesn’t describe how most people do eating out.

If the comparison is “come home, decide what you want to eat, get dressed, go out, order it, wait for it to be prepared, eat it”, versus “come home, decide what you want to eat, cook it, eat it”, then sure (and if the people in question didn’t have to come home, but already worked at home, then the comparison even makes sense, otherwise I gotta wonder what that ‘get dressed’ step is doing in there.) But that’s not how eating out for time pressure considerations works. Here are the more usual scenarios faced by more average families than a childfree couple in a hip walking-friendly city who both work from home would face:

1. Drive home from work. Recognize you’re too tired or stressed to cook. Recognize your partner won’t do it (or assume they are also too tired and stressed, or call on the cell and find out they are too tired or stressed or they are coming home late.) Go through the drive through, because the food isn’t that tasty, but your kids will eat it, and it’s consistent, and the selection is so small that you already know what everyone wants.

2. While driving to or from mall, or children’s after school activity, or movie, or grocery store, realize that you are hungry and that by the time you get home and start cooking something it will be really late. Stop at fast food for emergency food. Or decide you want something better than fast food, and go sit down at Applebee’s, because you could make better food at home in your kitchen if you were *there*, but you’re not.

3. Come home from work. Try to decide what to make for dinner. Discover that your kitchen is a disorganized mess or unpleasant to work in or you lack ingredients for what you really wanted, because you’re a busy person who works a lot at a job and maintaining a nice organized clean kitchen and setting up your grocery buys to cover everything you might want to make in a week is *work*. You could spend half an hour to an hour setting the kitchen to rights before you cook, or shopping at the grocery store to buy the food, and then you could cook it. Or you could spend half an hour driving to the fast food place and get the food five minutes later, or you could spend half an hour driving to Ruby Tuesday and then sit down in a clean environment with your loved ones and talk while waiting for your food, instead of having to clean your kitchen or go grocery shopping.

Then there’s option 4, which you do cover: Be a woman who doesn’t love cooking (or even who does love it, but is sick of it), married to a guy with typical male privilege. Spend an hour by yourself cooking the meal, or spend the hour in the company of your loved ones, driving to a restaurant and then waiting for your order.

If any of these things are true of a person, then eating out is either faster, or more pleasant even if the food sucks:

- They are too busy to keep their kitchen clean and organized.
- They have not bought the groceries they need to buy the food they want to eat.
- They are already in the car.
- Their kitchen is too small or is otherwise unpleasant to work in.
- Their partner never cooks or helps, so they will be alone while the cooking happens.
- They don’t like cooking.

In all these circumstances, the person could really prefer the taste of a nice home cooked meal, but it won’t magically cook itself, and the experience of cooking can be profoundly unpleasant if you *don’t* have a nice place to cook in, or the right materials, or you don’t like cooking, or you’re the only one who does it.

(continued)

Comment #165: Alara J Rogers  on  09/29  at  03:54 PM

(continued from previous)

I’ve actually never met anyone over the age of 16 who *does* prefer the taste of fast food to the taste of a home cooked meal. It doesn’t matter. You can cook yourself greasy comfort food just as easily as you can buy it, and often it tastes better that way; a home cooked hamburger is much superior to anything McDonald’s does. But to cook yourself greasy comfort food, you have to COOK. In YOUR KITCHEN. McDonald’s pays people to work in a kitchen, keeping it well organized for the purpose of cooking. No one pays you to do this, nor do you have the opportunity to pay anyone else; you have to do it, for free, in the time you’re not spending at work. And you have to actually *be* at home, or it doesn’t matter how nice your kitchen is.

When you’re poor, you might well live in a place with a crappy, poorly designed, poorly ventilated kitchen with barely functional appliances. And bugs. Or you might live in a really nice place, but have no time to keep it clean and well organized because you are working two jobs. Or you might be comfortably middle class, and staying that way because of all the overtime you work, which makes it important that you can bring food someone else cooked in *their* kitchen home to your family on your drive home from work rather than making them all wait for you to come home and start cooking. Or you might be a woman who hates cooking, married to a man who, like most American men, thinks cooking is your job and won’t step up to the plate if you abdicate. You covered the last option, but I think that if you overlook the first ones in favor of “people like fast food because it tastes good”, you’re missing a lot.

Comment #166: Alara J Rogers  on  09/29  at  03:55 PM

Someone who can’t cook, also probably can’t estimate whether something is wholesome, well made, or even worth eating at all.

OK, just fuck you.

And you too, DA. You’re a goddamn walking Carly Simon song.

Comment #167: Well, what?  on  09/29  at  04:03 PM

I’m 71 so maybe I’m the oldest commenter?
In the late 1920’s my paternal grandmother started a small secretarial business to help out my grandfather with the family finances.  That was when my father and his sister were teens—they all four ate dinner out every night at the same restaurant where it sounds as if the meals were like home-made. This was all long past by the time I and other grandchildren were on the scene and in my memory my grandmother spent the whole day cooking dinner for my grandfather—who then commuted on a train—and my school teacher “maiden” aunt who lived with her parents.  I don’t remember ever eating out with them.
Above anecdote just intended as a reminder that it is really difficult to untangle cause and effect, especially when the external environment is changing.

My gen-X son said the reason his friends used to eat out almost every meal (a few years back when kids with college degrees were pretty flush) was that their parents were such bad cooks (think hamburger helper) that they literally did not know that it was possible to prepare restaurant-quality food at home.
As for fast food from McD to Outback, I agree with those who say addiction is a big part.  Occasionally I am in a situation where I know I am going to have to eat at one of these places and I still look forward to it despite being disappointed afterwards every single time.

Comment #168: Sixtieslibber  on  09/29  at  04:08 PM

Well, what?, isn’t that the sort of response that makes me not really care about what you said (however many times you said it?)

newsflash:

I was never in any group other than the first in your comment @ 152.  Yet I hold the opinion I do.  Do you know why?  Because in no universe does having a better fed populace happen without more dinners being cooked at home, by people who have had practice cooking.  In no universe does having widespread healthy fast food outlets happen without discerning customers, who more or less learned to enjoy food at home.  In no universe where people are properly paid for their work, and where spouses/friends/family members can’t be coerced to do unpaid labor, are you eating that fucking hot food (if you don’t pay $$$ in higher wages/interest rates on fancier equipment @ food outlets) if you haven’t made it yourself or traded (out of your ever-so-busy schedules) other home chores in return.  Which means, you learned to clean bathrooms, wash clothes, change oil, any number of things.  And these things don’t take forever, because you do this *regularly*.

Some people just…don’t…have a basic respect for labor and skills not their own.

Comment #169: shah8  on  09/29  at  04:33 PM

I really don’t understand the hostility to the idea that people cooking at home more often can be rewarding: enjoying time with your family, people you care about & have fun with; eating something delicious; and generally being more healthful than eating fast-food. I just don’t see any home-cooking advocates saying: “Never pick up a rotisserie chicken or frozen pizza; Never eat take-out or go through the drive through” While not true for everyone, I really do believe that a lot of people don’t ever cook at home simply b/c they just don’t know how and it feels daunting. But with some encouragement and know-how start cooking more. 

Like Kit-Kat, I love to cook. I love to go into my kitchen and chop & slice & taste & smell. I love to grocery shop. I love everything that is connected to food. I love to drink a glass of wine & saute onions while my toddler bangs on pots and pans & messes with the spices. I like to chat w/ my husband while he sets the table and drains the pasta. I love eating the food and hanging out at my table,  watching my toddler stuff his face with ratatouille.  I work 45-50 hours/week. And my favorite part of my day is cooking with my family. Sometimes I’m not motivated & cooking feels more like work. Those days my husband whips up a stir-fry or his famous sherry chicken (my husband also likes to cook but i’m a bit of a commandante in the kitchen, for better or for worse). Or we pick something up, order take out or throw a frozen pizza from costco in the oven & eat in front of the television.

I get that for many many people, they do not have the means, the opportunity or family life that makes cooking for themselves and their families feasible or a pleasant experience. For a number of shitty reasons. I’m a fortunate person and do not take it for granted. I also know that for a whole lot of people cooking will always be drudgery and will feel like another burden in their already-stressful day.  In addition to getting people to cook more, having more healthful tasty, & affordable options to home-cooking is really important.  But for a bunch of people, teaching them how to get around a kitchen and some simple tasty basic recipes may open up the door for them to create a space in their home life that is really rewarding & gives them some healthier eating habits.  And maybe more people want to cook at home more times a week than they pick up taco bell might spur more significant, important collective action on issues like wages, leave time, and food subsidies. 

My happiest memories are cooking w/ my dad and big family dinners where everyone is in the kitchen. I’m hoping to share that w/ my son. But even if he doesn’t love cooking in the same ways I do, I’ll be damned if he doesn’t at least learn how get around a kitchen and a few quick, tasty and healthful dishes to feed himself once and while when he leaves my house. And if my husband & I can give him a childhood where he gets to hang w/ his parents and enjoy healthy tasty food together on a regular basis, maybe that will help him not be an asshat when he grows up or get diabetes.  And if he actually does get a kick out of cooking food and sharing it with important people in his life, that’d be cool.

Comment #170: wannabechef  on  09/29  at  04:38 PM

Uh…it was more the idea that I’m some kind of half-literate who can’t evaluate the things I’m putting in my mouth that made me say fuck you.

Really? So because I am not a painter, I can’t have an useful and valuable opinion on a painting that I look at? Because I’m not a musician, I can’t enjoy music in any meaningful way? Really?

I mean if you really think that way consistently, then fine. I’d disagree with you, and all, but fine. But something tells me you’re not so rigorously snobbish.

Comment #171: Well, what?  on  09/29  at  04:42 PM

No.

If you don’t know what is in the things that you eat, and how it was made, then you have no idea of what flavors really should be there.  You have very little sense of how to explore your own tastes by doing things slightly different.  It’s no different from appreciating music is enhanced by being experienced in some instrument.

So yes, you don’t have to know how to cook to appreciate flavors.  However, you wind up with an unrefined palate that *really* hits on the basic urges for fats, sugar, starches, you know?  Establishing values of carrots caramelized in the juices of a roasted chicken (and yes, not exactly the hardest dinner, but is difficult to clean) means trying this stuff out until you have it to your taste.  This is true for many situations of food prep.  If you are eating out, if you can’t cook, and you eat something that tastes nasty for some reason, then it’s hard to explain to the cook what’s wrong with it, if you haven’t had anything like an analogous situation in your own kitchen.  Same with eating out, and just making wise decisions on what foods are likely to satisfy you with the greatest sense of wellbeing at the least cost.

There isn’t an escape from necessity.

Comment #172: shah8  on  09/29  at  04:54 PM

word to shah8 at #169.

Comment #173: wannabechef  on  09/29  at  04:55 PM

Another thing that’s bothered me lately, but is off topic, is that how many chain restaurants are basically serving microwaved food.  That’s what the rice bowls at Jack in the Box or Wendy’s were:  Microwaved, re-heated frozen food.  Many larger restaurants are doing that, from Applebee’s to Olive Garden; half their food isn’t skillfully prepared when you ask for it, merely re-heated by a line cook.  And it tastes it.

Which is why the only time I dine in those places is when it’s on someone else’s dime, or I cannot reach a kitchen.  Because I can totally make something out of preserved, frozen, or canned ingredients that’s just as good.

Heck, I took pre-cooked rice with my camping this year:  Sure, it was more bulk, but a couple minutes in the solar cooker and no additional water and I had nearly-as-good rice.

Comment #174: Crissa  on  09/29  at  05:02 PM

Except Amanda’s points are that we need to focus on making it easier for people to have the time and space to cook.  Less hours at work, shorter commutes.  Not one of the whiners gave her props for that.

I just pointed out that you can get something the same or better that you can microwave yourself!  Same works for many basics, like potatoes or canned sauces or chili - do you think that people that make it themselves make it from scratch every time?  No!  They can a bit of it.  I don’t have the skill or time, so I buy canned stuff.  That doesn’t mean I’m skimping on nutrients.

How is someone who doesn’t know what ingredients are supposed to be in pickles or mayo or cooked potatoes supposed to know when the fast-food or pre-made food industries are scamming them?  That leads to Amanda’s second point of making education about home economics and cooking a health issue, which should be available to anyone and everyone.

Comment #175: Crissa  on  09/29  at  05:12 PM

And if anyone wonders why I start swearing, it’s comment #153 with the ‘I’m oldest on the thread and I know better’.  Fuck that noise.

Comment #176: Crissa  on  09/29  at  05:16 PM

...And #162, and…

Comment #177: Crissa  on  09/29  at  05:18 PM

OK—if one not only can’t cook, but also:

•can’t or doesn’t read about food
•doesn’t eat, or never has, at a wide variety of restaurants of all quality levels
•knows nobody who IS a knowledgeable cook and who likes to talk about it (have you ever met a knowledgeable cook who Could shut up about it?)
•and basically is living in a cave full of cheeseburgers and rage,

THEN maybe I’d say that person can’t make good food decisions.

Look I can’t really cook beyond a pretty basic level (think lasagna, simple roasts) and more importantly, I *don’t* cook even at that level in my daily or even weekly life. (I haven’t made a lasagna in nearly 4 years.) But I fucking know what caramelized carrots ought to taste like. I have zero trouble explaining to a cook when something tastes off, or overdone, or overseasoned. If you want to know what whiskey goes well with dry-aged steak, I’m your gal—I have a chart.

I dunno. Clearly there is no convincing. It just seems that a person can learn a lot from just eating, rather than cooking. Can’t a person learn a lot about music from listening, even without playing?

Whatever, I’ve conceded before that I have zero place in any kind of food reform movement. Maybe I’m not even a progressive anymore, I dunno. Maybe it’s all been beaten out of me…but either way I’m just way past caring.

Comment #178: Well, what?  on  09/29  at  05:23 PM

I’d say most Americans haven’t been to a variety of restaurants, if the tastes and reactions of middle-america are any indication.  But the cities seem to speak that they would, if they knew about it.

But how are these people supposed to know what are the two ingredients in mayo.

Comment #179: Crissa  on  09/29  at  08:57 PM

Shah8: spoken like a privileged child with zero life experience and few real obligations.

Comment #180: Ms Kate  on  09/29  at  09:07 PM

There is an advantage to knowing someone who is a good cook; there is an advantage to having access to a variety of foods; there is an advantage to having had these experiences.

Even knowing how to cook, without these advantages you’re just not going to have access to millennia of cuisine advances and tastes and foods which have come from billions of people trying and cooking and learning.

Comment #181: Crissa  on  09/29  at  09:09 PM

Ms Kate, so?

What exactly was so privileged and childish about what I said?

Or maybe it’s that you can’t be rational anymore, eh?  And so it’s time for put downs and terminal argumentation.

Sometimes I get so sick of smart people thinking lazy…

Comment #182: shah8  on  09/29  at  09:47 PM

I’d say most Americans haven’t been to a variety of restaurants, if the tastes and reactions of middle-america are any indication.  But the cities seem to speak that they would, if they knew about it.

I suspect this is true of people the world over. The local food is what you get ... in many places, even in the cities. Unless you are spoiled by expense account travel in far flung lands as I am, you might not ever know what you are missing.  Where my brother currently lives is one of those sorts of places.

I noticed when I returned from a business trip in Spain how amazingly diverse the cooking smells were in an area of the Cambridge, MA known for its rich tapestry of cuisine. It was then I realized how consistent the cooking smells were when I was ambling around Barcelona. When I have traveled abroad, the local fare seems so excellent at first, but it gets really monotonous over time because the mix simply isn’t there much of the time.  The food itself is generally better and fresher and more sustainably grown and properly ripened - but the same old gets to be same old after a while once one has developed a taste for variety.

Comment #183: Ms Kate  on  09/29  at  09:48 PM

Shah8: the fact that you are simply not listening to people who have the skills, but can’t possibly do it all and do it all the time because your limited life experience doesn’t allow for empathy.

I learned housekeeping and cooking skills - but there are 4 people in my household, I work 9 to 10 hours a day with nearly an hour commute on each end, and I travel occasionally.  Considering that I need to sleep, too, that doesn’t leave me much time to practice all those skills, now does it?  Not everybody is able to franchise those skills, either - I am lucky that I can harness teen power, but even my teens have hefty homework loads and orchestra rehearsals and sports to get themselves to.

Doesn’t leave a lot of time for all that wonderful June Cleaver stuff, even if it is simplified, now does it?

Don’t let reality hit you in the arse, though.

Comment #184: Ms Kate  on  09/29  at  09:53 PM

The summary point:SOMETHING FUCKING HAS TO GIVE!

In our family, we hire “the Bois from Brasil” to come clean our house twice a month when my husband is working.

In other families, “homecooked” meals lose out.

That’s the reality. Sorry if needing sleep and family time and exercise and all of that is “lazy” to you.

Comment #185: Ms Kate  on  09/29  at  09:56 PM

a cave full of cheeseburgers and rage

I usually like extra resentment and hostility on my cheeseburgers.

Comment #186: junk science  on  09/29  at  10:01 PM

You know, I’m pretty sure that endlessly repeating “but you’d like if you just tried it!” doesn’t work any better with cooking than it generally does with, say, lima beans or liver. In fact, if I were to walk up to say, Amanda, and tell her that if she would just try eating meat she’d learn to like it she would rightly consider me a total asshole.  And yet every time there’s a post about cooking here, that’s exactly what the cooks say to the non-cooks.

Comment #187: Bex  on  09/29  at  10:15 PM

Yeah, go ahead, yell that something has to give.

But you’re able to be bored by the cooking in Barcelona. 

The people I know, they were under even more time-stress, with greater burdens and fewer skills to make it all work even a little bit.

You’re the one without real empathy from my vantage point.  You *have* skills, and for you apparently, even though you work on surmounting the barriers of poor and working class people, and you come from hardtack stock yourself, it’s apparently all about how *you* can’t cope as well as you like.  You *have* the margin to say, ‘It’s all on me’, and simplify (or purchase more help).  I can’t help but hear whining.

People can’t really go on like this.  There aren’t the stupid, simple sort of jobs that don’t, in the end, require people to be in reasonably good health.  Even when there are, people are missing workdays because they can’t take care of themselves.  People are dying because they can’t take care of themselves.  In a future where health care costs loom ever higher, and ever more totally unavailable for anyone but the rich, self-help, however piteously small that is, is the only barrier from living hard to living desperate.  This is going to be important for everyone who *can’t* purchase a servant, and convincing people that taking the investment, in terms of time and inedible food, is a worthwhile one that can help you survive better than if you hadn’t.  The poor are hard to convince, but evangelizing the upper working class and middle class will have real and positive benefits. 

And I have confidence in my correctness.

Comment #188: shah8  on  09/29  at  10:32 PM

Keep up the cluelessness.  When you grow up and have competing responsibilities, you will find that Karma is a female dog.

Comment #189: Ms Kate  on  09/30  at  09:48 AM

Note as well that I have discussed this issue with professionals who are running actual intervention studies ... but hey, some little wanker with a simple life knows it all.

Since you have such confidence in your correctness, perhaps I can put you in touch with them so you can transmit all your <strike>fantasies</strike> strokes of genius they seem to be missing out on when they deal with the real obstacles.

Comment #190: Ms Kate  on  09/30  at  09:50 AM

Well, what? @ 178: 
Your idea of simple is LASAGNA?!?!?  WTF!  That is not simple.  Even bad lasagna requires layering, mixing, baking and major clean up work.  No wonder you think cooking is hard.  Damn.

Comment #191: helen w. h.  on  09/30  at  10:06 AM

Ms Kate, you really think that the kind of intervention you’re talking about would make a difference in the case of Well, what?

Comment #192: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/30  at  10:12 AM

Not only that, helen, stir-fry and roasting something in the over(like I do with a chicken or a tri-tip roast, spices sprinkled over the meat, no stiffing, tying, etc) are pretty simple compared to making a lasagna, but apparently Well, what can’t do either one to her satisfaction as well.

Comment #193: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/30  at  10:25 AM

at #187. Huh, the try it you might like it pitch is offensive & what total assholes do?!? Um, I didn’t brow-beat my husband but I have re-introduced him to foods he always thought he’s hated. Sometimes he’s changed his mind, sometimes, not. Re: brussel sprouts.  One day I roasted brussel sprouts until they were golden and delicious w/ some balsamic vinegar. And I said: Hey, I know you don’t like brussel sprouts but you’ve never had them this way, just give ‘em a taste. He tasted them.  And he discovered that he loved these brussel sprouts. He had only ever had boiled mushy yucky tasting brussel sprouts. But now, he eats brussel sprouts like mad in all different preparations. I could write a laundry list of foods he previously “hated” and that he really enjoys now b/c I asked him to try the food in a way he’d never eaten. I’m not sure Amanda’s exact reason for her vegetarianism but I imagine it’s a mix of a commitment to animal welfare and maybe on a lower level not loving meat enough to really miss it. In which case trying to get her to eat meat when she morally opposes eating meat wd be kind of an asshat move. Do you morally oppose cooking? Does cooking violate your personal ethics? I don’t think most folks don’t cook b/c cooking inherently violates their value system. And maybe some people will enjoy cooking and eating the tasty healthy food that they make if they learn that cooking a few times a week at home can be different from their preconceived notions or previous experiences. That’s not for nothing.

Comment #194: wannabechef  on  09/30  at  11:32 AM

brussel sprouts: those canned little shrunken heads of mush were hiddious!  The steamed or sauteed frozen ones my spouse makes - really good.  He saw a cooking show, and despite having the same scarring childhood experience with the canned buggers, tried it out, then made them for me.  Good stuff.

Comment #195: helen w. h.  on  09/30  at  12:21 PM

No wonder you think cooking is hard.  Damn.

Correction: I don’t think cooking is hard. I think it’s boring and a waste of my time.

Comment #196: Well, what?  on  09/30  at  01:07 PM

More than boring—actively unpleasant. But no, not hard for me.

Comment #197: Well, what?  on  09/30  at  01:08 PM

Wish I had more energy after a week of hard work to be more articulate and analytical (not to mention, wordy) but all I can muster at the moment is to say that this is one of the best critical pieces about junk food I’ve ever read. Bravo!

Comment #198: tehbrynn  on  09/30  at  10:53 PM

I can’t cook, but I’d eat roast brussel sprouts most days. I used to be able to roast potatoes :(

Comment #199: shannon  on  10/01  at  09:29 AM

I remain astonished at how committed most workplaces are to making their employees’ lives a living hell.  Class War is utterly dominant in every aspect of our lives.

Comment #200: Punditus Maximus  on  10/01  at  02:37 PM

“I really don’t understand the hostility to the idea that people cooking at home more often can be rewarding: enjoying time with your family, people you care about & have fun with; eating something delicious; and generally being more healthful than eating fast-food. I just don’t see any home-cooking advocates saying: “Never pick up a rotisserie chicken or frozen pizza; Never eat take-out or go through the drive through” While not true for everyone, I really do believe that a lot of people don’t ever cook at home simply b/c they just don’t know how and it feels daunting. But with some encouragement and know-how start cooking more.”

The hostility is because we really don’t find it fun.  I find nothing fun whatsoever about cooking.  It’s boring, it’s a waste of time, I’d much rather grab a pre made meal from Trader Joes and that’s not only quicker, but a far, far better use of my time.  And telling me that I “should” want to cook more or practice it more is about as senseless as telling me I “should” want to weave my own clothing.  Other people do it better, and that’s fine.  I’m happy to pay them for it.

Comment #201: Susanne  on  10/02  at  10:04 PM

And as long as you really are willing to pay them for it, a living wage that allows for them to do the same for the things they either do not want to or cannot do, that is absolutely acceptable to any sane person.

Comment #202: helen w. h.  on  10/04  at  08:44 AM

False analogy:

Cooking is like washing your clothes or cleaning the bathroom, if you want to hire those services done for you, you can, but most people find it easier to do it themselves even when they find those tasks disagreeable or unpleasant.

Comment #203: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  10/04  at  10:39 AM

Lack of skills is what makes cooking hard. If you know how to cook it is easy and fast. To prove it, I’ll be back in 15 minutes to post again!

Comment #204: plamrriett  on  10/04  at  06:45 PM

HA! I win! Chicken Parm Pasta in 10 minutes! I rock and Micky D’s blows!

Comment #205: plamrriett  on  10/04  at  06:56 PM

Lack of skills is what makes sewing your own clothing hard.  If you know how to sew, it is easy and fast.  How come you don’t want to sew your own clothing?  What’s wrong with you?

Comment #206: Susanne  on  10/04  at  07:52 PM

If I were eating by myself, I’d rather have a bowl of cereal or a PBJ sandwich than even bother with 10 minutes worth of preparation for chicken parm pasta.  Or, I’d make enough chicken parm pasta that I could eat it for several days.  I think the other thing that gets forgotten is that not everyone simply cares that everything they put in their mouths has to taste astoundingly wonderful.  I eat to live, not live to eat.  Other people are different and that’s cool too.

Comment #207: Susanne  on  10/04  at  07:56 PM

DAGCM, as with cooking your own food, I have no problem with people who pay someone to do their laundry or clean their bathrooms as long as they are willing to pay a living wage to the person who does so. 
Food service and domestic help workers are notoriously under paid; so I have an issue there.  It isn’t enough of one to keep me from occationally using a laundry service when I travel long term or am living short term somewhere without laundry facilities.  I try to make sure the people doing it for me are not a step above destitute (or lower), but instead are compensated for their time and effort.  Often times, that means paying a little more than I want and makes me happier when I get home and do my own laundry again.  I haven’t figured out a good way to address this for hotel housekeeping except to tip well.

Comment #208: helen w. h.  on  10/05  at  09:11 AM
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