And isn’t “Obamacare” modeled after the health insurance system that all Senators use?

Why is it so hard to show respect for the recently deceased? Especially someone who dedicated more than half their life to public service? I bet this guy’s a “christian”.

I’ll believe that socialized medicine is a good thing when billionaire senators are required to use it.

Good old Ann.  Always thinking about the well-being of the billionaire senators.  If only we had less people concerned with the uninsured and more people concerned with making sure the rich don’t have it too good, I can’t help but think the world would be a better place.

No kindness, even in death.  Not even a bit of respectful silence for the passing of a scion of a great family.  Their bile filed lives are their own reward.  Curse them to darkness.

Um, is there some provision of the new plans stating that rich people will be banned from paying for additional services?  Don’t most “socialized” health care systems allow for people to top up their coverage by buying a supplemental plan?

“the health insurance system that all Senators use”—as I understand it, that’s FEHP.  The Federal Employees Health Benefits Plan.  Used, not just by senators, but by all federal and postal employees and retirees in the US (and retirees residing outside the US).  That’s a lot of people.  Millions.

Yes, Mr. Kennedy had it.  And like many people* with this plan, he thought it right and proper to extend it to all citizens.

*the others just haven’t thought about it at all

Billionaires who can buy any level of care should be forced into this imagined socialist/death panel systems. Those who can’t buy any care at all shouldn’t get any help. It isn’t dumb, it isn’t irrational, it is anti-liberal hate speech.

It is a single degree removed from the most-violent language possible. It is pure eliminationism.

Obama(doesn’t)Care?

Obama(doesn’t)Care?

OH, I get it! It’s like “health care,” or “Medicare,” only it’s Obama’s proposal, so it’s ObamaCare, and then “care” can mean, like “caring,” so it’s “Obama(doesn’t)Care”!

Fuck, how are we supposed to get anything passed when people can make such incredibly clever plays on words with something that isn’t the name of the proposal?

What else is there, really, to debate? We lose, guys.

FlipYrWhig,
You’re completely right.  I heard one guy say that a public option would take away his freedom.  When I pointed out that he doesn’t have to choose the public plan, he insisted that this step would lead to it being mandatory and it would be illegal to buy private insurance.  Ironically (hypocritically?) enough, we were inside a public school when he said this.  I pointed out that public schools have been around for a long time and people can still pay extra to go to private schools, and also in most (maybe all) “socialized” countries, people can still choose to buy private insurance if they want.  Public roads don’t make it illegal to have turnpikes, and public police forces don’t make it illegal to hire a personal bodyguard.  The point was lost on him, because ooh, Big Scary Socialism.  I was foolish to even try using logic on him, as he is clearly immune to it.

No surprise this came from someone at althouse’s hole.  Another win for the professor!

They want so badly for there to be a bunch of befanged Libruls (probably Dirty Hippies) who are drooling at the thought of being able to kill old Republicans.  And they want this to be true so badly they’re able to shut off all ability to read, understand facts, use reason, etc., and go on as mindless brain-eating zombies.

As usual, the Stupid Masses are sheep who do as they’re told.  But what gets me are the Republican operatives who are in there stoking the Rage Machine.  What do they hope to gain?  Do they think they’re going to get a larger mansion in Heaven if they shutdown Healthcare “reform”?  Other than the immediate “It makes those Libruls mad!”, what’s the payoff?  Or is that all there is?

Here we are sailing on the USS America, having just struck an iceberg, and we’re slowly sinking and we don’t have enough lifeboats for everyone.  The liberals are trying to find things that float to lash together to save people from drowning, while the Reichwing is telling everyone who down’t already have a lifeboat they’ll drown if they accept help from the Democrats.

As Private Hudson said in Aliens, “That’s it man, game over man, game over! What the fuck are we gonna do now? What are we gonna do?”

What are we gonna do if 1/4 of America is fucking nuts…?

I pointed out that public schools have been around for a long time and people can still pay extra to go to private schools

@ catgirl:  I’m fond of the parallel to education too, in particular because people opposed to the health care reform plans under discussion cite things like the Mayo Clinic to say that the US has the best health care* in the world.  Well, the US has Harvard and Stanford, but conservatives aren’t usually inclined to say that the US has the best education* in the world.

* And there’s clearly a huge divide between talking about “health care” or “education” tout court vs. health care and education _systems_.  It does an average citizen little good to know that some small part of his country gets the very best of everything.  Usually, the way American mythology works, elitism is supposed to be A Bad Thing.

I heard one guy say that a public option would take away his freedom.

I’ve been driven bananas by statements like that—WTF does “option” mean if not that it increases your range of choices?  But my wife had a great insight:  she thinks that a lot of people hear the phrase “public option” as referring to the government choosing to stick the public with the tab, rather than the government creating and funding a system that people can opt into or out of.  They misunderstand whose option it is.

”...there is no “Obamacare.””

Sure there is.  It’s right up on the bookshelf next to Protocols of the Elders of Zion and books about the Priory of Sion, Ancient Astronauts, and the skull of Piltdown Man...

Um, is there some provision of the new plans stating that rich people will be banned from paying for additional services?  Don’t most “socialized” health care systems allow for people to top up their coverage by buying a supplemental plan?

Actually, in the Canadian system, (which is not remotely like what Obama’s proposing), rich people can indeed “top up” their coverage on a lot of “elective” things like dental, glasses, whatever else, but when it comes to life-saving procedures, you cannot (at least in theory) use more money to jump the line and get it earlier. Rich people sometimes go to the US in order to do this, and there are definitely ways to work around it (whenever a hockey player needs a major surgery, they seem to get it pretty quick), but the existence of waiting lists, and the stress of being on them is the grain of truth in all the madness that surrounds “socialized medicine”. Personally, I’m pretty okay with the idea of waiting lists being made fairly, but at the same time, if someone I loved needed an important procedure, and I had the means, I’d propably try to find ways to jump the line, too, so I can’t really blame the wealthy people who go around the Canada health act.

When you get down to it, healthcare resources are scarce, and there’s an enormous demand for them. A good system makes the most of these resources, but there’s no perfect system. Most in the world are better than what the US is stuck with currently, however. All this news about the reform effort has really opened my eyes up to how lucky we have it up here. Even though our system is often difficult to navigate, stressful and impersonal, I don’t ever have to feel scared I’m going to be billed an amount I can’t afford when I go to the doctor.

FlipYrWhig - And the best health care in the world (if we even had it) would be utterly useless to you if you can’t afford to access it.  I guess the Repubs think that just standing in the parking lot at the Mayo Clinic would be of benefit to the sick and uninsured?

Everyone over age 65 is enrolled in the socialized health insurance program called Medicare.

The right-wing fearmongers believe that health care is a zero-sum game: if more people get access that comes only at the expense of those who already have it. Here, they point to the factoid that most of the money spent on one’s health care is spent during the last six months of life, and to the expressed desire to lower health care spending. Ergo, no more hip operations for Grandma, who’s gonna die in the next couple years, anyways.

I’ve been driven bananas by statements like that—WTF does “option” mean if not that it increases your range of choices?

This particular guy thought that this health care reform bill is just a trick to start us down the slippery slope of mandatory public health care with no option to buy private health care.  Of course the slippery slope is a logical fallacy, but since when do these people care about logical consistency?

As Private Hudson said in Aliens, “That’s it man, game over man, game over! What the fuck are we gonna do now? What are we gonna do?”
What are we gonna do if 1/4 of America is fucking nuts…?

Complete. Political. Marginalization.

If a combination of revolutionaries and progressive leaders start taking back the states, their goal should not merely be accumulation of more members and immediate improvement of citizen welfare but the utter destruction of regressive political structures. Strict application of criminal statutes against their organized crime political bosses, counter-protests, aggressive use of the spoils system, and well-tuned propaganda must all be employed to divide bigot against bigot, Randian asshole against Randian asshole. Make sure the red parts of the state get the short end of any new public policies, push their taxes up while the blue areas’ taxes go down, and discourage businesses from moving to the red areas.

If a political movement thinks it can convert a red area: more power to them. If they haven’t the resources or the skill to pull it off:

“I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.”
“Fuckin’ A…”

There will be some who claim that we should welcome impoverished persons, even if they be anti-American racists and spiteful, anti-social, violence-loving bullies, because they are victims of the same system as the rest of us. With all due respect, that’s fucking wrong. Fuck the regressives.

As Ripley said: “They can bill me.”

Obama(doesn’t)Care?

Gentlemen, we are toast. That’s what they’re saying in congress right now. The rhetoric is too powerful. Fucking thermo-nuclear. Though it might be a little more biting if it weren’t just diluting a term the right itself made up to be disparaging.

But let me try- it looks like fun:
ObamaCare(s) NOT!
Obama(is)Care(fully planning a government takeover of my Medicare)
NoBambi(‘s death panels are s)Care(y!)

Of course the slippery slope is a logical fallacy

The slippery slope argument is fallacious only if you assume that the steps are inevitable. Arguments showing that one change can make other changes possible, or seem more reasonable or more likely, are not automatically fallacious. The argument that the public option will be simultaneously wretched compared to private options, and yet more popular is particularly stupid, however.

The slippery slope argument is fallacious only if you assume that the steps are inevitable.

Well that’s exactly what this particular guy did.  For some reason, he thought that having a public option would eventually lead to mandatory use of the public option and making it illegal to buy private insurance.  Of course, this hasn’t happened with any other countries, but those countries don’t count because don’t have the black Muslim Nazi anti-Christ as president, which is what I assume this all boils down to.

After my first hip replacement, my surgeon asked me if I would do it again.  I thought he meant, would I get the other hip replaced, but no, it turned out that he meant would I get the replacement replaced if necessary?  Geez, what a stupid question.  Can you see me (or any one else) saying, no, when this one gives out, I’ll just be a cripple for the rest of my life.  But I was interested to know that at the (hypothetical) age of 80 plus, “the system” would be willing to let me have another hip replacement if I wanted it.  A hip replacement replacement.

And discussing end-of-life care?  We’ve already had that conversation (years ago, right after the first retirement conversation, when both of these possibilities were way in the future).  Why shouldn’t every one have guaranteed health care, and why shouldn’t everyone’s guaranteed health care include discussing one’s options?

And we need more Ted Kennedys.  The sooner the better.

Well that’s exactly what this particular guy did.  For some reason, he thought that having a public option would eventually lead to mandatory use of the public option and making it illegal to buy private insurance.  Of course, this hasn’t happened with any other countries, but those countries don’t count because don’t have the black Muslim Nazi anti-Christ as president, which is what I assume this all boils down to.

The Know-Nothings I was in line with at my Rep’s town hall took this a step further.  They were positive that “the bill” (I assumed they meant HR3200) made the public option mandatory and forbade anything else.  When I disagreed, they declared that they had read the bill, that was what it said (on page 132! right there!), and I was just ignorant.

I guess the Repubs think that just standing in the parking lot at the Mayo Clinic would be of benefit to the sick and uninsured?

Totally.  You might not be able to afford a ticket, but you can still tailgate.  Mayo #1!  Mayo #1!  U-S-A!  U-S-A!

I’m confused.

How is taking a pill and waiting for death much different than what Sen. Kennedy ended up doing?  He kept a very positive face, and remained as active as possible, but… It was inoperable cancer, and could have put him in terrible pain.  He seemed to keep hope that within his time left they’d come up with some sort of solution or it would stop growing or whatever so he could get back to work, but I don’t see how the free-market helped him.  He had the best healthcare the government could buy.  ...Kinda like Obamacare.

In other words, wasn’t he at home, taking pills?  How would the Republicans make this different?

PS, there are waiting lists in the US, too.

Beneath the insanity and hate of the anti-health-care rhetoric, there’s honest fear that makes me feel almost sorry for the loons.  At this point, most people in the U.S. either live without health coverage, have inadequate coverage, or live in constant (and justified) fear that their coverage will get yanked if they ever really need it.  You’d think this would inspire them to support an overhaul of the system, but when people are feeling desperate, it’s surprisingly easy to get them to fight tooth and nail for what little they’ve got rather than take a chance on a better alternative.  The health insurance industry and right-wing noise machine are exploiting one of the common flaws in the way the human mind responds to a crisis, and they’re doing it in a really nasty and cynical way.

“the health insurance system that all Senators use”—as I understand it, that’s FEHP.  The Federal Employees Health Benefits Plan.  Used, not just by senators, but by all federal and postal employees and retirees in the US (and retirees residing outside the US).  That’s a lot of people.  Millions.

It’s one of the largest healthcare plans in the United States - I believe it has 9 Million people covered.

And while it is true that U.S. Senators have access to a damn good healthcare plan, that very same plan is also available to the janitors who mop the floor of the Capitol Rotunda.

The argument that the public option will be simultaneously wretched compared to private options, and yet more popular is particularly stupid, however.

That’s the one that irks me to no end.  When speaking to a conservative relative about healthcare reform, once I finally got them to concede that the public option was, in fact, OPTIONAL, they came back with the tired, “Yeah, but as Barney Frank said himself, it’s just a gateway to single-payer that’s gonna kill the private sector!”

I then went on to ask this relative if they believed that the public option would be inferior to private healtth insurance, and they responded, “It’s gonna be run by the government, of course it’s gonna suck!”

I then responded that if it was gonna suck as bad as he expected, what would possibly cause people to ditch their current private health insurance to flock to the obviously inferior public option?

Blank stare.

I’m so glad I saw this Althouse commenter comment before my mother sees it somewhere, pretends she thought it up herself, and emails it to me, with a subject line like WORD TO THE WISE! or JUST SAYIN’. Gives me time to warm up my junkmail button finger, and report the woman as a spammer.

It’s funny because he really was on socialized medicine.