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Next entry: “Some Democrats”: Infinity Personified Previous entry: Michael Steele Over/Under

The bitterness of wingnuttery distilled

Jill peeked into the heart of darkness that is the wingnut heart and found a solid bit of evidence that so much right wing resentment and hatred of the Liberal Elite is based on straight-up jealousy.  And because I’m evil, nothing is funnier to me than watching unloveable losers like Kathryn Jean Lopez and Ace of Spades flip out because Jessica of Feministing is getting married and seems pretty happy about it.  I got nothing against people that have a lot of angst, of course, and have known some bitter people that are amongst my most favorite people.  But only if they expend their rage in productive ways, such as being really sarcastic and funny.  Alas, Ace and K-Lo are lazy, and instead of developing interesting coping mechanisms, they decide to just indulge misogyny, the cheapest and most obtainable venting mechanism available in our society.  It takes years of hard word to develop an acid sense of humor and become Tina Fey.  But if you write some misogynist screed, you get a lot of back-patting and amens right away.  Granted, you get this sort of positive attention from the absolute dregs of society—-former frat boys, chinos-wearing weenies that you try to ignore when they chat you up in public, men who try to hide the massive charges on their credit cards from porn sites from their wives, men who wear camouflage without an ounce of irony—-but it’s positive attention nonetheless. 

The best part about catering to the misogynist crowd, as Dr. Helen figured out a long time ago, is that these idiots will believe anything you tell them, no matter how implausible, as long as you trash a woman while doing so.  That’s why K-Lo calls Jessica a “Bridezilla” for writing a post that’s notable for its modesty and thoughtfulness.  I’m not blowing smoke up Jessica’s ass, either.  The whole point of the post is to be responsive to people’s questions about her upcoming nuptials, and I thought it was very nice of her, because many people would indulge an urge to tell people to mind their own business, or in the case of those who tried to guilt-trip her a bit on the question of gay marriage, to shove it.  I’m not saying that “shove it” is a good response, of course, but I’m just pointing out that Jessica was very open and kind about all the questions, and doesn’t seem even remotely resentful of getting grilled about stuff that most women don’t even have to confront at all when they get married.  There are women who throw giant princess fits over their wedding, which is in some parts of this country the only day women get a real chance to be the center of attention and proud of themselves, but suffice it to say, Jessica isn’t one of those women. 

I can only conclude this—-“Bridezilla” has morphed from a term that describes women who go completely over the top when it comes to wedding planning, and now is a term that can be applied to any woman getting married at any time.  Jessica wrote a book about all the double standards that women are subjected to, but it’s worth noting that we’re also subjected to a lot of double binds.  I go over this a lot on my podcast, because I see a lot of examples of how women are both required to engage in sexual intercourse and shamed and punished for it.  But this is an interesting double bind—-there’s a lot of pressure on women to get married, but as soon as you start to live up to that cultural expectation, you are shamed for thinking that you deserve the honor of getting married, and now it seems that showing even the slightest bit of interest in your own nuptials makes you a Bridezilla.  But showing no interest at all would make you a heartless feminazi.  Femininity is the overarching double bind.  If you reject some requirement of it, you are a transgressor of gender norms, and that incurs people’s wrath. But if you live up to any kind of standard of femininity, then you’re a target for mockery and shaming, as well, because caring about feminine things makes you a shallow bimbo.


Ace of Spades comes right out and pretty much states that women, by definition, are shallow pieces of shit who don’t care about anything but showing off.

Everyone who believes that she was seriously considering delaying marriage until “everyone could,” and believes she’s looking at her wedding as a “pro-active way to talk about same sex marriage among our friends and family,” rather than as Princess’ Special Day, please raise your hand.

Or that’s the conclusion I get from this.  His only reason to believe that Jessica must be lying about her intentions is that she’s a woman, and all women want the same thing, and that’s to have Princess’ Special Day.  I fail to see how this isn’t pure misogyny.  All women are shallow bimbos who want to be tantrum-throwing Bridezillas, and women who don’t want that are just lying.  I thought I was a cynic, but I have nothing on this sort of bleak view of humanity. 

Mostly, I hate misogynists like K-Lo and Ace, but maybe because their posts are coming from such a pitiful place, I’m really just feeling sorry for them.  K-Lo has such a sad view of men that she trolls for the approval of the worst sorts of misogynists, probably because she thinks that’s just how men are and that’s all she can ever get from them.  You get the eerie sense that bashing other women is her sad sack form of flirting.  And Ace’s dim view of women is such that if I were him, I’d honestly believe that love itself was impossible, just something you pretend to have for a woman to shut her up so she’ll give you the pussy.  Because if you really think all women are bimbos or liars, then what hope is there of ever meeting one that you respect enough to love? 

The joke is that he thinks it must be exhausting to be a feminist who actually tries to be a good person, presumably because we’re all fighting our “true” desires to be shallow bimbos who don’t give a shit about anything important.  But honestly, I think the anti-feminist view of the world is a lot more exhausting, and it’s obviously alienating. The cynical belief that every man is an asshole and every woman is a bimbo strikes me as way more exhausting than believing that good people exist and that real love based on understanding and equality is possible.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 12:30 PM • (90) Comments

I used to feel a tiny bit sorry for Kathryn Jean Lopez, because she was the target of such relentless personal attacks by some of the more juvenile liberal blogs *coughSadlyNocough*. No more. Anyone who would lay a slur like “Bridezilla” on someone who expresses perfectly reasonable feminist-oriented musings on her upcoming wedding deserves whatever she gets.

As for Ace of Spades, the best he can come up with is:

It must be positively exhausting to have to pretend about caring so passionately about so much all the time.

Sure, pal. To someone who doesn’t give a shit about anyone but himself, the thought of contemplating the well-being of anyone or anything else for one minute probably leaves you too exhausted to right-click your mouse.

Comment #1: Bitter Scribe  on  03/12  at  12:50 PM

And it is jealousy.  I have always had the feeling that it is the apparent ease with elites slide through life which they hate.  They mistake the “never let them see you sweat” poise for them never actually sweating.  Life can be hard is rural areas as there is a sense of apartness and alienation on top of life’s other struggles. 

The people that are angry and the weak and fearful.  For every one of those, there is a rural person who gathers strength and individuality.  Out here, you beat it or it beats you.  The beaten ones are the natural fodder for Republicans.  For these beaten ones are the lick-spittle ass-kisser dittoheads.  Obama didn’t mean to be offensive when he talked about people clinging to their God and Guns but he struck a note.  There is a difference between believing in something and using it as an avatar.  These beaten ones live in a world of jealousy and paranoia to a degree that would scarce seem credible to those who have not been inside it.

Comment #2: Magis  on  03/12  at  12:55 PM

I have always loved that image, here is a link to the original: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jocieposse/214951320/

Comment #3: woolie  on  03/12  at  01:11 PM

“I thought I was a cynic, but I have nothing on this sort of bleak view of humanity.”

That is exactly what I thought when I read Ace’s comment. Well, maybe not EXACTLY, but pretty f-in close.

Mine was more like “I thought I was a cynic, but I have nothing on this sort of bleak view of humanity that this godamn asshole does.”

Comment #4: Mark  on  03/12  at  01:30 PM

So, I’m recently married, after 6 years of cohabitation.

No ceremony, the county charges a nominal fee. I’ve never felt a “traditional” wedding ceremony is necessary. My expressions of love and commitment are my actions each day, not a ritualistic ceremony, which given the high divorce rate in this country, apparently has little meaning for many people despite all the pomp and circumstance and expense. The expense! I think the $10k-50k typical of most wedding packages is better spent establishing a household, or saved, or even taking a vacation together. Fortunately I was lucky enough to find a partner who shared the same ideals and distaste for tradition. She kept her name, no hyphens or other silliness.

So, what is marriage then? It’s the special rights that are afforded by this legal status, above and beyond any commitment symbolism. So, yes, I will raise my hand and say that it was somewhat discomforting to get married when these rights are restricted to heterosexuals. It’s something I thought about frequently during the process.

Comment #5: woolie  on  03/12  at  01:31 PM

Jill peeked into the heart of darkness that is the wingnut heart and found a solid bit of evidence that so much right wing resentment and hatred of the Liberal Elite is based on straight-up jealousy.

Well, yeah. That’s why I particularly enjoy messing with trolls like Atanarjuat—no matter how hard they try to maintain the pretense that they’re driven by rock-solid reason, eventually that venomous jealousy that really powers them erupts through the surface.

Comment #6: Gracchus.  on  03/12  at  01:32 PM

Don’t read the comments at Ace of Spades. Trust me.

I really don’t understand how it’s possible to hate half the species that much. Or to assume that any male who doesn’t hate them must be gay. There is something seriously wrong with those people.

Comment #7: Av0gadro  on  03/12  at  01:32 PM

“Sure, pal. To someone who doesn’t give a shit about anyone but himself, the thought of contemplating the well-being of anyone or anything else for one minute probably leaves you too exhausted to right-click your mouse.”

If this actually described Ace, I doubt he’d be blogging about Jessica Valenti’s wedding. Ace writes like he cares passionately about what other people think of him. Must. Have. Approval. Woman. Give. Me. Approval. Feminist. Liberal. Not. Give. Me. Approval. Bad! Bad! Kathryn Jean. Nice lady from National Review. Good. Cookie?

(Yes, I imagine Ace blogging in CaveBuffy from Season 4. Why don’t you?)

Comment #8: witless chum  on  03/12  at  01:38 PM

The fellow and I are getting married in July and I am going through the exact same thing, only our version is from our families.

They’re furious and berating us for having a ten minute ceremony and BBQ in the park while simultaneously making jabs at me saying they know that I (just me, not him) want a huge $50,000 wedding and jewel-encrusted dress, like the little stupid lady I am, and isn’t that cute that I’m letting him plan to save money (WTF?).

The whole thing has almost been enough to put us off the notion of inviting family entirely.

I can’t wait until they see I’m in cowboy boots and a homemade, $5 dress. Oh, and that my name ain’t changin’. It’s mine, damnit.

People need to butt out.

Comment #9: iena  on  03/12  at  01:43 PM

I did, Av0, and it confirmed what I suspected—-what a group of broken men.  The irony is they could easily have all the things they’re jealous of, in this case a relationship with someone who actually loves and respects you instead of treating you like a placeholder called “husband”, if they quit hating.  The weird thing about bigotry is that it eats up the bigot, and Ace’s post shows how.  By hating women, they alienate themselves from women, and as straight men, that means that kind of happy-go-lucky love is probably never going to be possible, not really.  I can’t even imagine deliberately shutting down that possibility.  It’s like white flight—-people ended up punishing themselves by moving to sterile suburbs and losing touch with the world, and all because they were bigots who couldn’t stand mixed neighborhoods.

Comment #10: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/12  at  01:55 PM

Hubby (and family) were the ones who wanted the ceremony.  I wanted to not have it, but caved on this one.  It was an exhausting process, and I wanted to do it on a budget.

Let me tell you, trying to avoid the “bridezilla” label was the major part of the exhausting (and it was impossible, as well).  So, yeah, every woman gets that label.

The party ended up being nice, but Hubby did eventually agree with me that it was not worth it.

Comment #11: Antigone  on  03/12  at  01:57 PM

After years of spreading malignant propaganda meant to dehumanize and “Other” any woman who doesn’t fall in line, it just blows their little minds when they are forced to confront the basic humanity of the “enemy.”  They also just can’t believe that a “man-hating feminazi” could ever find a man who wants to marry her.  Of course there must be something wrong with him!  Of course he couldn’t possibly be a “real” man!

Comment #12: Blitzgal  on  03/12  at  01:57 PM

We’ve already pretty clearly established that the marriage ritual, for assholes like Rick Warren, is all about maintaining the fiction that women are an underclass created by God as personal-servants/blow-job-machines. Anyone who approaches marriage as something other than Daddy presenting HIS daughter as a gift to the groom is a threat to that fiction—be it a gay marriage or a marriage between equal partners.

Men who deviate are sissies. Women who deviate only look like they’re having a good time. Really, they’re going to get cancer and die, so K-Lo can feel good about aspiring to be a personal-servant/blow-job-machine.

I know no one here is surprised. Except, perhaps, by the personal invasion. But they don’t know limits, do they?

Comment #13: humanadverb  on  03/12  at  02:21 PM

Well, and it’s funny, since even women who fall in line are also bad and the enemy.  They’ve got zero respect for women who behave as they think women ought to—-they think they’re simps.

Comment #14: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/12  at  02:21 PM

That’s exactly why they get so vicious when the dynamic is threatened. Why would women continue to submit to such a bullshit system if they have valid alternatives? So, they attack the alternatives.

Orson Scott Card wrote a newspaper editorial threatening direct, violent anti-government action if the U.S government “redefines” marriage. The entire culture is a house of cards, and they know it.

Comment #15: humanadverb  on  03/12  at  02:28 PM

Planning a feministy wedding was extremely difficult for me - almost traumatic.  There’s absolutely nothing you can do right.  Everyone has a better idea for everything.  You may regret your choice of flowers FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE.  If you follow the script, you’re shallow and bride always always always = bridezilla.  If you deviate, you’re completely on your own and people think you’re selfish.

Comment #16: saraeanderson  on  03/12  at  02:36 PM

Gloria Steinem eventually got married.

If you live your life according to the stereotypes set forth by others who don’t even believe your same values, you are being controlled.

I think that is what the whinging is all about here: if she’s a feminist, she is supposed to live by their limited rule set about what a feminist is supposed to be.  They can then pillory her for that, but still control her with that all the same.

She’s stepping out of bounds, and redefining marriage in the process to boot!  Shame!

Comment #17: Ms Kate  on  03/12  at  02:44 PM

Speaking as someone who’s been through it a few times, one of the more annoying things about being a bride is that you’re continually dealing with suppliers who clearly believe (bride = [moron + bankroll]).  “Oh, everyone is expecting [some monumentally overpriced bit of tat that couldn’t be further from your own tastes].” “Your new in-laws will be so disappointed!”

I am not making this up—total strangers actually attempt to guilt you into buying crap. (You can also reasonably assume that these are the suppliers most likely to ignore your specs, hit you with last-minute fees and otherwise disappoint.)

Obviously, such people deserve to be told to piss off, loud and clear. Of course, after you do, when the suppliers recount the event, you’re the Bridezilla. You’re also the Bridezilla if the suppliers blow off their end of a contract with you and you seek legal action.

Or, y’know, if you act like you’re a grown woman deserving of respect and not a lot of cutesy-wutesy condescension . . . as J-Lo, Ace and Ace’s readers amply demonstrate.

Comment #18: Molly, NYC  on  03/12  at  02:44 PM

God, that makes me glad I’m not getting married, Molly.  I can’t even begin to imagine.

Comment #19: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/12  at  02:51 PM

I’d raise my hand, certainly.  She’s asked for donations to marriage equality charities instead of wedding gifts, so YES, she clearly IS looking at her wedding as, among many other important things, a chance to get her friends and family talking about same sex marriage.

I hope she has a wonderful day and a blissfully happy marriage.

Comment #20: MissPrism  on  03/12  at  02:54 PM

Wow, I read the post, and “Bridezilla” was the last thing I would have used to describe it.  It almost makes me wonder if those people even read the same post I did.  I feel like I’m in the Twilight Zone.  Do they even know what “Bridezilla” means?

Comment #21: bananacat  on  03/12  at  02:54 PM

And I’ve just had a chilling thought. What if Jessica posts a picture of herself in her wedding dress and she has BOOBS ON?

Comment #22: MissPrism  on  03/12  at  02:57 PM

How cool!  I didn’t know JV was getting married.  That’s awesome.  Love is the bestest thing evah! And of course the crazies think there’s something wrong with how she’s going about it—she can’t do anything right in their eyes because she’s a feminist, and wears and lives the label proudly.  She could be having an over-the-top wedding in a couture gown with a princess tiara and 400 people and say “I agree to love and honor and obey”, after which she demurly reminds everyone that she’s now Mrs. [hisfirstname] [hislastname], and not only would she be getting the same level of shit from the Wingnut crowd, she’d get it a lot harder from the people who actually like her.  Because they like HER. Like you said—total double bind.

Comment #23: roro80  on  03/12  at  02:58 PM

now it seems that showing even the slightest bit of interest in your own nuptials makes you a Bridezilla.

Don’t forget that planning the wedding is still the woman’s responsibility.  OK, maybe the guy can pick the band.  But the motherlode of work and planning belongs to the bride.

So now if she shows any interest in this job, she’s a Bridezilla?  She can’t win: the patriarchy’s favorite game.

Comment #24: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  03/12  at  02:58 PM

I like to see a sense of proportion. I knew one couple who were still paying off their wedding when they filed for divorce. The big boss’s secretary came back from her honeymoon and got an annulment.

As far as Bridezilla goes: it’s the couple’s celebration. Let them have what they want, regardless of what someone else—anybody else—thinks is appropriate.

Comment #25: Hector B.  on  03/12  at  03:02 PM

I’d raise my hand, certainly.  She’s asked for donations to marriage equality charities instead of wedding gifts, so YES, she clearly IS looking at her wedding as, among many other important things, a chance to get her friends and family talking about same sex marriage.

The wingnuts fear that gay marriage will redefine marriage - meaning, that it will mean internal equality as well as external equality.

Participants in an egalitarian heterosexual marriage tend to make the best allies for gay marriage, and there are a lot more straight people than gay people.  If we redefine marriage ANYWAY, we lower the barriers to marriage equality put up by people who think a traditional marriage = men’s room + ladies’ room.

Besides, all those people who claim that they won’t get married until gay people can?  Cop out!  It usually means that one partner refuses to be honest about their not wanting to get married.  I live in MA an I seen what happens when Never = May 17, 2004!

Comment #26: Ms Kate  on  03/12  at  03:04 PM

My marriage was lousy, but my wedding was great. We did it on three days notice; we already lived together so we did it at our house. We called about five people and said “Tell everybody.” We bought some food and some flowers. The whole thing cost about $200. Done. (I only regretted not asking my former band to play.)

I played dozens of weddings; some of the marriages literally dissolved before the weddings were fully paid off, and so many of the brides were clearly stressed and miserable.

I always tell people who are graduating from high school or college that the day is a lot easier and less stress if you accept that, despite what they tell you, the day isn’t really about you. Weddings are a little bit the same way, but not totally or even mostly. Unless you let them talk you into something.

... their wedding, which is in some parts of this country the only day women get a real chance to be the center of attention and proud of themselves ...

This is very true. A director friend of mine told me after her (pretty big) wedding that she realized that planning their wedding is also the only time in most people’s lives that they get to do, basically, what a theatrical director does.

Comment #27: RickMassimo  on  03/12  at  03:12 PM

It’s not just feminsty weddings that get this, it’s ALL of them. I’m a professional wedding planner (I focus on budget and non-traditional weddings) and one of the biggest struggles I have is trying to get the bride to do what she really wants and not what others expect of her. And I’ve seen the gamut, from grooms who don’t care to those who are more involved than the bride, mothers who don’t show up to those that plan the entire wedding, etc. etc. etc. There is a formula, but few follow it exactly.

The most interesting thing I’ve noticed is that the majority of my clients are either interracial couples and/or have children together already.

Comment #28: Ashley  on  03/12  at  03:13 PM

And Ace’s dim view of women is such that if I were him, I’d honestly believe that love itself was impossible, just something you pretend to have for a woman to shut her up so she’ll give you the pussy.  Because if you really think all women are bimbos or liars, then what hope is there of ever meeting one that you respect enough to love?

Considering what he’s written in the past about female anatomy, I suspect that all of this is a result of his own inadequacies.  He fears that he’s undesirable and unlovable, so he rejects all women before they can reject him.

I think this is also the source of many misogynist attitudes toward sex, both that women are obligated to fuck men and that we’re not supposed to enjoy it.  We are obligated to have sex with any man who’s interested, regardless if he’s attractive or good in bed, and as such we are also obligated to give up any desire for sexual fulfillment, since of course we’re sleeping with men who can’t or won’t get us off.

Comment #29: keshmeshi  on  03/12  at  03:19 PM

Something pretty obvious here is that all of the anticipation and excitement around weddings being The Bride’s Day just reinforces the K-Los of the world giving up so much self-determination and self-respect to a husband. They give it up, so they can have a wedding, and weddings are so awesome!
(Feminist weddings, on the other hand, suck by definition.)

Clearly, it isn’t like that for everyone, but why is there that assumption that the bride is going to do all of the planning (and work) and that the groom doesn’t really care or have much of a role?

And, I am further troubled that, as a fellah, I have absolutely no interest in a big wedding and that anything other than a civil ceremony would be for the bride. I wouldn’t really care and wouldn’t have much a role, beyond what I’m asked to do of course. And I’ve had this conversation with girls where this is exactly what we planned would happen.

I’m not sure what to do about it. It just makes me kinda uncomfortable.

Don’t judge me.

Comment #30: humanadverb  on  03/12  at  03:27 PM

I wouldn’t really care and wouldn’t have much a role, beyond what I’m asked to do of course.

That places a medium-to-vast organisational burden right on the bride’s shoulders straight away. How about, instead - if and when the situation arises - you discuss with your fiancee what you want, figure out how much work that entails, then do your share of it?

Comment #31: MissPrism  on  03/12  at  03:32 PM

“why is there that assumption that the bride is going to do all of the planning (and work) and that the groom doesn’t really care or have much of a role?”

Because there’s a larger cultural assumption/pantomime going on that takes it for granted that men are actively averse to or deeply disinterested in marrying.  Consequently, weddings are for women, and Real Men™ are also actively averse to or deeply disinterested in things that are for women.  Based on this, you can assume that any groom who takes too much of an interest in or is present for too much of the planning for his own heterosexual wedding will catch a bad case of the gay (true story).

Comment #32: preying mantis  on  03/12  at  04:09 PM

RickMassimo and Woolie-

I really like your ideas of a wedding.  I’d rather save the money and have something simple which is more fun for the couple and the guests anyway.  I wish there were more men and women with your attitude about weddings and marriage, but then I guess the high-end dress-makers and diamond companies wouldn’t make as money.  I feel like a lot of the wedding industry is a scam.  I’ve always been rich, so I could easily afford an expensive wedding; I just don’t see any point to it.  I don’t like the general attitude that people should waste their money on expensive things just because they can.  Personally, I would never spend hundreds of dollars on a dress I can only wear one time, even though I could afford it.  The money I save by not doing that could be used for more useful things like my future kids’ college funds, mortgage payments, a charity, or even a new TV.  At least the TV would be more entertaining than a dress or a ring, and I’d get to use it more than once.

Comment #33: bananacat  on  03/12  at  04:25 PM

Amanda - Well, sometimes it’s kind of fun to unleash some well-warranted verbal whoop-ass on someone who assumed they could lay these hard-sell guilt trips on you because you were too demure and clueless (being a bride and all) to stick up for yourself.

Basically, it’s just a party with a bit of a ceremony attached. If you were throwing a party because your dad’s getting out of the slammer, or it’s your annual Halloween bash, or you just feel like having a big party, the caterers, et al. wouldn’t pull that stuff. (1) But the One Special Day aspect seems to bring out everyone’s worst.

(1) Actually, not telling them it’s for a wedding unless it’s need-to-know is usually a pretty good idea; keeps the prices down too.

Comment #34: Molly, NYC  on  03/12  at  04:26 PM

The boy and I talk about getting married. I would prefer not to even really be engaged, or announce an official engagement. We’ve been living together for two years, dating for three, and I only see the engagement as a time where we make plans to get married.

- I’m planning on keeping my name. Boy is planning on keeping his.
- I already said no rings. (Although if he needs to put something on my finger on the actual day, I have a nice sterling silver octopus tentacle.)
- Vegas. Telling my parents and family about two weeks in advance so they can drive down from Utah. Telling his mom and my best friend about two months in advance so they can get plane tickets. Budget: 50-60 bucks for license. 500 - 700 for ceremony, depending on how much Elvis we want. And plane tickets and hotel costs for a weekend. Plane tickets will be most of it.
- Guests: Best friends. Immediate family. Approximately 15 people. And the only reason I’d be inviting family at all is because they’ll never believe it otherwise.
- Not planning on showers or anything like that because we already have everything we need.
- Matron of honor: best friend. Man of honor: My brother. Best man: That’s up to the boy. They all get matching Converse sneakers because I’m dopey like that.

That’s about it. Whee. I’m Bridezilla! Whee!  (I have definitely thought about the dubious-to-me morality of getting married when others can’t, and wish I could use it as a lever on my very Mormon family. I’m sure my mother would vote for gay marriage in a heartbeat if she thought it would finally impel me to get married to my boy.)

Comment #35: PixelFish  on  03/12  at  04:34 PM

Sadly, I’ve been to weddings that were mainly ceremonies with a party attached.  A lot less fun.

Comment #36: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/12  at  04:34 PM

Oh, I’ve got one for ya…but since it is still a pending issue…this is all “hypothetical.”

Hypothetically, there are two people who are getting married this summer. They have known each other for years, and are both visually impaired. They actually met at a training center to learn to use a certain animal that helps those who are visually impaired. That was sixteen years ago. They thought it would be nice to go to training together again for their second animal who helps people such as them. They applied to the school and all went well and they decided to have their wedding just a few days before training starts. Now, the wedding has a budget of under $1000, has only 8 guests, and is basically a ten minute ceremony and a dinner for said guests afterwards. She would have done the JOP thing, but he wanted to invite his mom and have a little wedding and so be it, a compromise was made. Both of them will be moving after the wedding, but since they have some other logistical issues to take care of first, it will be awhile before they move from their homes and in together.

Well, even though she told him not to say anything about any of this to said training center staff, he did. He didn’t think it was a big deal. He didn’t realize how women cannot often mingle their personal and professional undertakings without punishment. What was the punishment in this case? SHE gets denied admittance to the training center. Why? Because having a wedding and then adjusting to married life and then moving will be too much for her. She certainly would not be able to focus on training. Meanwhile, HE apparently will not have any such problems. Of course men can get married and move and get used to being married and remained totally focused. But apparently she will be in a horrible bridezilla state and could not possibly adjust.

Oh! And they both have kids from previous relationships! His live with their mother and hers live with her. And he will acquire her children in the household (read: adjustment). But of course, it is because she has kids (apparently his are disregarded) that is another reason why it will be too much for her.

Sorry to threadjack, but SHE is spitting bullets about now and had to get some relief. Of course, as a non-profit there is absolutely no recourse.

Comment #37: Lexie  on  03/12  at  04:35 PM

MissPrism, that’s the point.

Exgirlfriend example… we talk about what we each want. I want to go to the courthouse, basically elope, no big deal, basically handling the entire thing is a business arrangement. That’s what I want. She wants a big deal wedding with hundreds of guests (she’s got a big family), with her childhood pastor presiding over things. I try to work towards a middle ground, but it can’t be had, because it is very important to her to have a big wedding. It isn’t that she’s had some girlish fantasy and if I balk at her color scheme, that’ll be a deal-breaker. In fact, her position is pretty legitimate (big family, and Episcopalians).

We never got beyond that point in the planning, and I’m sure I’d have further input in how the thing goes, but really, the entire thing is for her. Now, doing my share is definitely in the cards. It is important to her so it is important to me. But a lot of that depends on what she wants to (is willing to) delegate, how much help she wants, etc. I would never throw my hands up and say, “this is your thing, so you do it.” I might throw my hands up and say, “this is your thing, tell me what to do.”

I sense there is something wrong with that second option… but I don’t really see a solution. I can pick flowers or find a band or even plan and execute the entire wedding, but I really don’t care about any of the details beyond making it tasteful and fun.

Comment #38: humanadverb  on  03/12  at  04:38 PM

Oh, rings. “He Went To Jared.” “A Diamond is Forever.” “Every Kiss Begins With Kay.” I find them among the most obnoxious kinds of advertising, along with household cleaning products, because the entire sell is premised on traditional gender roles.

So. Our rings are tungsten-carbide, in a beautiful high-polish. One of the hardest materials available (8.5-9.5 mohrs hardness scale, nearly impossible to scratch.) And about $30 each from Amazon. I highly recommend tungsten-carbide.

Comment #39: woolie  on  03/12  at  04:57 PM

Just a note about the “taking his name” thing. 

We handled this by putting a note on our wedding website:

“Joe has decided to keep his own name.  Since he’s established a large portion of his adult life and career with his current name, he prefers to continue to use it.  Sarah completely supports him in his decision, and knows that if she were the one expected to change her name, Joe would be equally supportive if she wanted to continue to use her own name.”

Comment #40: kajey  on  03/12  at  05:05 PM

That’s awesome, kajey.

Comment #41: human  on  03/12  at  05:06 PM

Also, avoiding the environmental effects of the whole jewelry exchange, we had some jewelry that I never wore, (gifts from relatives who don’t know me well enough to know that I don’t wear jewelry) recycled into our wedding rings.  Simple gold bands with a rough finish.  We get compliments on them all the time, and no new gold was mined to make them.  I just googled “recycled gold” and looked around until I found someone who would do it.  The entire thing was done by e-mail and mail, I never met the jeweler (she’s on Cape Cod somewhere—can’t recall the name).

Comment #42: kajey  on  03/12  at  05:21 PM

@ha, being averse to planning complex social events doesn’t necessarily make you a misogynist, just anti-social. Welcome to the club!

Comment #43: woolie  on  03/12  at  05:21 PM

kajey:

brilliant.

We did it for the paperwork, with a JP. Almost didn’t tell anybody.

Comment #44: paul  on  03/12  at  05:34 PM

Thanks, woolie. I know that I’m not a misogynist, but that doesn’t mean I don’t occasionally do dipshit stuff around gender politics (as we are all guilty of from time to time).

And kajay rocks socks.

Comment #45: humanadverb  on  03/12  at  05:36 PM

but I don’t really see a solution. I can pick flowers or find a band or even plan and execute the entire wedding, but I really don’t care about any of the details beyond making it tasteful and fun.

Maybe this is just because I do something for a living where you have to have opinions and make aesthetic decisions on things even if they’re not really up your own personal alley, but I mean, really, how hard is it to just say, “Y’know, the wedding’s in April, Daffodils will be in season, so let’s go with that…  And then if we pull the yellow from the daffodils for my tie, and maybe the best man and maid of honor can wear something contrasting like periwinkle…?”  Or, to think of something coded less feminine, similar choices can be made about locations, bands, food, etc.  Just pick something.  Whatever you like.  Whatever makes sense.  Pick something out of a hat.  Say “eeny meeny miney moe”.  Pull an “oh, come on, do you REALLY think we need to hire a DJ?” if you really think it’s pointless crap your fiance doesn’t care about any more than you do.

Comment #46: The Opoponax  on  03/12  at  05:45 PM

I don’t think it would be hard at all.

Am I missing something?

Comment #47: humanadverb  on  03/12  at  05:51 PM

That’s your solution.  If you find yourself marrying someone who really wants a big wedding, and you’re willing to compromise on your ideal choice of no wedding, just do it.  Approach it like you would approach anything else you were willing to do because it meant something to someone else, rather than dragging your feet and whining and ultimately throwing everything on her “because YOU were the one who wanted this, remember…”

I mean, I’m not Jewish, and yet if I found myself partnered to someone who was and who wanted our kid to be bar mitzvahed, I’d do what needed to be done to make that happen.  I imagine planning a big wedding that’s not really your thing is in the same league.

Comment #48: The Opoponax  on  03/12  at  05:59 PM

Absolutely agreed, Opo.

I’m drawing the line at a bris, though. They can do it with a stunt-knife, if they want, but no one is mutilating my kids’ genitals.

Comment #49: humanadverb  on  03/12  at  06:07 PM

Lexie—for the record, he should have a sit-down with the director of the center and inform him that he cannot work with an institution that would treat his wife so shabbily.  He has to stand up for her, so she will be comfortable standing up for him at some later time.  If they don’t rescind their decision, it is his job to sadly inform the director that he will not be accepting their offer—and will be forced to inform every major media outlet within 100 miles of why.

Comment #50: Punditus Maximus  on  03/12  at  06:27 PM

“Sadly, I’ve been to weddings that were mainly ceremonies with a party attached.  A lot less fun.”

Actually, this was how our wedding went off. We invited friends & family to a party and took 15 minutes out of it to get married. everyone cheered when we were done & went back to dancing. It didn’t seem sad to me.

Comment #51: Mark  on  03/12  at  06:43 PM

Lexie:
Take it to the Board of Directors of the non-profit.  They are frequently more in-tune to the risks of being sued and of public embarrassment.

Comment #52: seeker6079  on  03/12  at  06:49 PM

@Punditus Maximus

You are totally right. And it might come to that (and we will see if anyone/media really would even care that two blind people are getting screwed over by the wonderful shiny happy feel good organization.

There is a big incestuous “agency problem” here between and within all of these organizations. They fund raise at the expense of those they serve, much like Jerry Lewis fund raises a huge amount of capital used for the MDA’s “administrative costs” at the expense of those with MD. Those being served have to gravel for scraps and take the prejudicial fundraising practices while Lewis gets humanitarian awards and private jets. The media doesn’t get it.

Which is all to say, we could knock ourselves out of ever getting a service animal again. Until the day when we are allowed to train them (hire trainers) ourselves.

Comment #53: Lexie  on  03/12  at  06:56 PM

Mark, you didn’t catch my meaning.  I meant a wedding where the ceremony was the focus and the guests felt more like a prop than the point.  Parties are about your guests first and foremost, but for some reason, some people forget that with weddings.

Comment #54: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/12  at  07:14 PM

Building on Amanda’s point… I’m still mad at the wedding that was perched on the California coast at sunset. So the audience is looking at the bride and groom, saying their vows, with the setting fucking sun right behind them blasting us all in the face. Assholes.

I was also confused by the sunset symbolism… I mean, romantic, kinda, but also suggestive of endings rather than beginnings. Whatever.

Comment #55: humanadverb  on  03/12  at  07:18 PM

Oh. OK, I did miss the point on that one. In that case, you’re right!  smile

Comment #56: Mark  on  03/12  at  07:39 PM

Lexie, that really, really sucks.  I’m sorry they are being assholes about it.

I had a pretty traditional wedding—church, dress, bridesmaids, 100 or so guests (mostly family, we both have pretty big extended families), etc—10 years ago.  We managed to do it up nice on a fairly slim budget, he was almost as involved in the planning as I was, and a great time was had by all.  However, my view on these things is that the wedding is more about the friends and family of the couple than it is about the actual couple themselves, so I was pretty laid back about it when things didn’t go perfectly (as things never go perfectly).

And really, if I had to do it over again, the only thing I’d change is that I probably wouldn’t have changed my name, or I would have hyphenated at the very least.  That’s more about the marriage than the wedding, though.  And seeing as how it’s been 10 years now, the marriage has been wonderful so far, and I’ve spent my entire adult working life with his last name (I was 21 when we got married), it’s probably more hassle than not to change it back.  Plus, at this point, since I didn’t mention it at all when we did get married, he’d probably not take it well if I did it.

Comment #57: ks  on  03/12  at  07:50 PM

Our rings are tungsten-carbide, in a beautiful high-polish.

“Toooong-sten carbide rings?  What the bloody hell is that, then?”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPSzPGrazPo

Sorry.

Comment #58: Alex, FCD  on  03/12  at  08:03 PM

Parties are about your guests first and foremost, but for some reason, some people forget that with weddings.

I really wish more people understood this.  The traditional function of a large wedding ceremony, in pretty much all cultures, is to unite the bride’s and groom’s families and integrate the new couple into the community.  It’s as much about the guests as it is about the couple.  If you want a big wedding, understand what a big wedding means and make it a party for all the guests to enjoy.  If you want the wedding to be about you and your partner alone, you’re better off with a small civil ceremony.  Or go to Vegas, which does awesome weddings that won’t send you into debt.

Anyway, I love seeing feminists get married, even in these times of marriage inequality, just to watch conservatives’ heads explode.  How can she have won the ultimate prize of Good Womanhood, a HUSBAND, without even following the rules?  Unfair!  Unfair!

Comment #59: Shaenon  on  03/12  at  08:23 PM

I’ve found that if you go against the tradition AT ALL you will get so much crap for it.

I didn’t wear white to my wedding, or anything that resembled a ‘wedding dress.’ People were asking me beforehand how my guests would know who the bride was….‘Uh, cuz I’m the girl that got married?’ I had a guest come up to me and DEMAND we do the cake cutting ceremony, when we had no interest whatsoever in it.

I wanted the party and the ceremony, but I wanted it to be low-key. We had 80 people there, the ceremony lasted 15 minutes, my husband and I walked together down the aisle AND married ourselves (no officiant), and he was as involved with the planning as I was. I cared about decorations, but he didn’t, so he pretty much only had veto power on it. He cared more about food, so he pushed for that, I REALLY cared about cake, etc. Neither of us gave a crap about flowers and thus we didn’t have any. The best thing, I think, is that he wrote the whole ceremony!

We got a lot of crap for going non-traditional, but it was a lot more fun and we’ll never want to do a big vow renewal to get the wedding we wanted in the first place, as I’m seeing several of my friends planning now.

Comment #60: Ashley  on  03/12  at  08:37 PM

I will say that I really, really wanted to go to Vegas last summer for our 10th anniversary and get married again by Elvis.  Unfortunately, the lack of money and the husband’s not being terribly excited about that idea anyway (he hates Vegas) combined meant that that didn’t happen.  Instead we dropped the kids off with his family and went camping in northern Ontario for a few days.  Was definitely a good time, but I still want to get married by Elvis eventually.

Comment #61: ks  on  03/12  at  08:41 PM

I’ve found that if you go against the tradition AT ALL you will get so much crap for it.

I feel it’s made all that much worse by couples who refuse to stand up for themselves during the wedding planning.  You know the ones.  The ones who complain about all of the trappings of the gigundous ordeal they’re planning, and when you ask “Well, why the hell are you doing that to yourselves, then??”, the reply is “We HAVE TO!”

Sorry, no.  All you HAVE TO do is pay your taxes and eventually die, and even the former seems rather negotiable.

My husband and I did what we wanted, got told we’d last six months because we didn’t have a “Real Wedding(TM)”, just celebrated 18 years last month.  We still get occasional turds lobbed at us for our Fake Wedding, usually by the cousins who are now of age to get married and are going through all the motions and whining about “We HAVE TO!”  We shrug and tell them “No, you DON’T.  If you don’t do it the way you want to, you’ve no one to blame but yourselves.”

Comment #62: MaggieB  on  03/12  at  09:30 PM

Parties are about your guests first and foremost, but for some reason, some people forget that with weddings.

I went to a wedding that featured a slideshow of pictures of the bride and groom, who had known each other since they were children and were dating for nearly a decade by the time they graduated from college; and they had no editing skills.  When the fifth (fifth!) song of background music started a rather drunk man leaned over to me and, in what he thought was a whisper, said “This would be more appropriate at a funeral, you know, like if they’d died together in a plane crash.”

When I was engaged I never got any farther into wedding planning then getting a non-traditional engagement ring and that and that alone was enough to blow people’s minds.  I’m not fond of hyped-up weddings, but you don’t have to spend a lot to hit the key expectations others have (white dress!  tiered cake!) and I can see where people would chose the traditional crap they weren’t thrilled about if it meant not explaining 10,000 times why you did things slightly differently.  Jessica’s super-socially-conscious wedding, for example, is going to get her a lot of crap from people who still won’t think it’s enough, but if her family is like mine (probably not) she’d also get a ton of crap for being such a damn hippie.  I’ll bet she has at least one guest completely ignore her requests and give something more traditional just because giving to a charity rather than giving a place setting squicks the giver out. 

Just because you don’t care about everyone else’s opinion isn’t going to stop them from giving it to you over and over, until you want to punch them.

Comment #63: Kyso K  on  03/12  at  09:50 PM

I meant a wedding where the ceremony was the focus and the guests felt more like a prop than the point.

Not just the guests. Still remember, going on 25 years later, the ceremony where the priest went on about how we might think that this wedding ceremony was about the two people getting married, but really they were just there to provide a metaphor for expounding the notion of the church as bride of christ.

Comment #64: paul  on  03/12  at  10:08 PM

Paul, for some reason your comment reminded me of a story my fellow told me of going to the evangelical wedding of his cousin. Several times during the ceremony the phrase “Jesus sandwich” was used in reference to her “deflowering” that evening. Who wants to imagine Jesus wedged between the couple? More so, who wants to envision the couple’s sure-to-be awful sex as they stand up there teary-eyed on the altar? Gross on so many levels!

Even if I weren’t agnostic, there is no way any of that would get into my wedding.

Comment #65: iena  on  03/12  at  10:43 PM

Lexie—

That’s really awful.  Maybe you could punk them and get your spot back by saying “You’re right, it would be a big adjustment.  We’ve decided not to get married after all.”

Comment #66: preying mantis  on  03/12  at  11:00 PM

“Jesus sandwich” was used in reference to her “deflowering”

If you’re going to use the phrase “jesus sandwich” why stick to the rather archaic “deflowering”?  You’ve already gone way past treating the subject with any sort of delicacy and are firmly in “popping of [Bride’s] cherry” territory.  Let us all stand as a congregation and imagine a menege a tois with Jesus.

Comment #67: Kyso K  on  03/12  at  11:02 PM

The traditional function of a large wedding ceremony, in pretty much all cultures, is to unite the bride’s and groom’s families and integrate the new couple into the community.  It’s as much about the guests as it is about the couple.

And, for me at least, this was the amazingness of my own wedding: having so many of the people my husband and I loved in the same room for one time only.  I treasure the photos of my aunt talking with my college roommates, of my husband’s best friend from high school telling jokes to a group of children including my husband’s young cousin and the daughters of two of my favorite co-workers, etc., etc.  It was magical; I have never felt so cherished and supported as I did looking out at the 150+ people who had gathered to wish us well.

Apparently everyone else had fun too.  We had magicians!  And Slinkies!

Comment #68: JupiterPluvius  on  03/12  at  11:07 PM

My husband and I did what we wanted, got told we’d last six months because we didn’t have a “Real Wedding(TM)”, just celebrated 18 years last month.

It fascinates me that, on my mom’s side of the family, the two children who had big fancy weddings were the two children whose marriages ultimately didn’t work out.  My uncle, who had a casual backyard wedding where the biggest drama was the bride finding a suitable maternity dress to walk down the aisle in, is still married after all these years.

Comment #69: The Opoponax  on  03/12  at  11:24 PM

Sorry to threadjack, but SHE is spitting bullets about now and had to get some relief. Of course, as a non-profit there is absolutely no recourse.

I can think of a couple ways to get some satisfaction, but it involves strategically placed cans of tuna, which might not work as well with dogs around.

Comment #70: Mnemosyne  on  03/13  at  01:52 AM

I don’t think I’ve laughed harder over the phrase “Jesus sandwich” and the story of the drunken relative saying one wedding theme would be more appropriate if the couple had died in a plane crash… It is just such a level of horrible that it is hilarious. Anyway, not married, not really planning on it at the moment despite being together 5 years. To the point that my boyfriend’s relatives assume we’re married and write “mr. and mrs. chris—-” on letters and such.

I wanted to touch on a sentiment here, that you have no one to blame but yourself for a wedding that made you unhappy because you should just stand up for yourself and be happy, but that weddings aren’t for the couple they’re for the family. I think that it is kind of hard to have a wedding both for yourselves and for your family, consider people great for doing their own thing despite expectations but also great for doing things that maybe they weren’t thrilled about for their family. This just kind of seems like the same ‘damned if you do or don’t’ policy.

Comment #71: Tenya  on  03/13  at  01:55 AM

I really get creeped out by the whole “happiest day of your life” thing.  That says something pretty dismal about the rest of the marriage, doesn’t it?  The first day is the best and then it’s just a long downhill slide to the grave.

The day we got married was a really fun day but, like Jupiter said, it was because we were able to bring together a disparate group of people who would probably never spend that much time together again.  Some of G’s co-workers still talk about the funny stories my aunts told them during lunch.  Plus our big splurge was on a top-flight photographer—she cost about 10 times more than my dress, which I bought used on the internet—so we have a lot of amazing pictures to remind us.

(Hint for people on a budget:  a lunch reception is WAY cheaper than dinner and you get done at a decent hour, leaving more time for fun husband/wife games behind closed doors.)

Comment #72: Mnemosyne  on  03/13  at  01:58 AM

I accidentally went into the comment thread at Ace of Spades… holy fuck… what a mistake.

Anyways, what struck me most was one girl referring to Jessica’s feminism as some sort of cure for her “guilt”.  May I inquire, what guilt?  The guilt of being born a woman?

Jesus Christ….

Comment #73: Meghan Elaine  on  03/13  at  01:58 AM

G. just reminded me about my brother’s wedding this summer, where the minister started talking about “love deposits.”  No, seriously.  He used that phrase, like, six times, comparing marriage to a bank account.  We couldn’t look at each other or we would have started giggling and that would have been bad since it was a very small (like 20 person) wedding.

I’ve heard our wedding video is good, but I haven’t watched it yet.  G. refuses to because he’s still embarrassed that he started crying at the reception.

Comment #74: Mnemosyne  on  03/13  at  02:03 AM

“I can only conclude this—-“Bridezilla” has morphed from a term that describes women who go completely over the top when it comes to wedding planning, and now is a term that can be applied to any woman getting married at any time.”

...whom the speaker doesn’t approve of. Kind of like “slut” has morphed from a word describing a sexually promiscuous woman to a term that can be used to describe any woman at any time (whom the speaker wants to shame.) And like “bitch” has morphed from a word meaning a woman who is socially unpleasant and selfish to being a term for any woman at any time (that the speaker doesn’t like.)

You wrote a while back about how people subject to double binding “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” situations tend to become very passive, and I wonder if that isn’t the point. Shame women, catch them coming and going, so that they’ll eventually give up on trying to do anything.

Comment #75: heresiarch  on  03/13  at  02:15 AM

I really get creeped out by the whole “happiest day of your life” thing.  That says something pretty dismal about the rest of the marriage, doesn’t it?

Right there with you.

I’m finishing up my diss on news coverage of same-sex couples during the MA campaign (defense in less than two weeks!!!!!!!!)  Some of the most annoying articles were all about the planners and businesses drooling at the prospect of all these gay folks spending money. This whole “happiest day” stuff has always made it seem to me like the wedding is more important than the marriage.  Get consumer capitalism involved and all that crap just becomes more intense.

One of my more facetious arguments against same-sex marriage has always been, “Do we really want the gay wedding planners to fuck up our lives like they have the straight folks’?”

Comment #76: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  03/13  at  06:11 AM

I can only conclude this—-“Bridezilla” has morphed from a term that describes women who go completely over the top when it comes to wedding planning, and now is a term that can be applied to any woman getting married at any time.

I think that Bridezilla is also a metaphor for how empowered women and women who are in charge can automatically be assumed to be tyrannical, selfish to an extreme, and completely out of control.

In other words, a storied example about how women are unfit to be in charge.

Comment #77: Ms Kate  on  03/13  at  12:48 PM

Some of the most annoying articles were all about the planners and businesses drooling at the prospect of all these gay folks spending money. This whole “happiest day” stuff has always made it seem to me like the wedding is more important than the marriage.  Get consumer capitalism involved and all that crap just becomes more intense.

My neighbor is a videographer and photographer who does really high-end stuff for the most part.  He had a solid reputation for being a gay friendly photographer before May 17, and had an extensive portfolio of photo-video work from committment ceremonies.

The summer and fall of 2004 was non-stop repeat and word-of-mouth business for him.  I don’t think he got a saturday or sunday off until December!!  He was totally bored silly (he does a lot of other video projects), but felt he should work for the repeat customers who were now doing legal weddings where they did ceremonies before.  He wasn’t drooling about the added work - he and his twin brother who runs the music side were totally overwhelmed with work.

Comment #78: Ms Kate  on  03/13  at  12:55 PM

“love deposits.”

Is that because love comes in spurts?

Comment #79: Ms Kate  on  03/13  at  12:57 PM

<iI’ve found that if you go against the tradition AT ALL you will get so much crap for it</i>

But some wedding traditions are sacred. For example, no Wisconsin couple is truly married unless their guests do the Hokey Pokey at the reception.

After all, that’s what it’s all about.

Comment #80: Hector B.  on  03/13  at  01:31 PM

Is that because love comes in spurts?

Ah, my right arrow key is stuck.

Just to show I can use HTML:

What’s gray and comes in quarts?


An elephant.

Comment #81: Hector B.  on  03/13  at  01:37 PM

Ms Kate,
I’m not saying gay folks haven’t bought into the same ol’ nonsense of making the wedding more important than the marriage.  We are, even after all of the attempts to exclude us, part of the same culture. It’s just a culture I reject. 

If, in my new job and geographic location, I find someone to drive up into Canada and marry, we’ll be doing a civil service with as few people as is legally possible. That’s non-negotiable for me.  A party later? Sure. A big ol’ ceremony? fuck it.

Comment #82: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  03/13  at  01:57 PM

Oh I realize that Jeff - my point was that many of these people salivating at working the new weddings likely got a rude surprise in two parts - the first part being that the entire gay community was not necessarily going to buy into the big wedding thing, and the second being that people who were inclined to have a big blowout were either going to tap the same folks they used for the previous blowout (because they were big party people anyway), or ask their friends for referrals to people they were comfortable with.

I’m going up to Canada in May for a hetero wedding - my brother’s - and I suspect it will be a bit of a rehearsal for the weddings of his two step daughters, but with less fuss.  I need to buy a dress of a certain color that won’t clash with the rest of the party, but that’s about the formality limit.

I’m mercillessly teasing him about that brown suit ...

Comment #83: Ms Kate  on  03/13  at  03:07 PM

Oh, and I still owe you lunch - after you defend yourself, if you are still around.

Comment #84: Ms Kate  on  03/13  at  03:07 PM

after you defend yourself, if you are still around.

Should be here for at least part of the summer. Haven’t figured out all of the logistics yet, but I got a tenure-track position back in the Midwest so I’ll be moving a lot closer to the family (but still far enough that visits must be planned)

Comment #85: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  03/13  at  03:20 PM

Any attempt to perceive Ace as a non-asshole is an inherently flawed exercise.

Comment #86: flagrantfouler  on  03/14  at  03:22 AM

So, if two guys are getting married, can one of them become a groomzilla?

Comment #87: Dana  on  03/14  at  12:29 PM

Dana, I have heard my neighbor use that very term!

But that was an individual case of an excessively demanding customer, not a cultural expectation or demand.

Comment #88: Ms Kate  on  03/14  at  05:55 PM

It’s nice to see that Dana is still getting secret thrills at the thought of men kissing.

Comment #89: asdf  on  03/14  at  08:56 PM

Alas!  In the greatest of disappointments, we received a wedding invitation for 9 May 2009, from one of Mrs Pico’s co-workers.  At these things, there is a “married couples’ dance,” in which only people who are married may dance.  The emcee then tells couples to take their seats if they have been married less than a year, then five years, ten, and so on.  This wedding will take place ten days before our thirtieth anniversary, so we’ll be ten days short of being able to stay on the floor past the “Everyone married less than thirty years, sit down” announcement.

How can this couple have been thinking about themselves and not about us when they set the date?  smile

Comment #90: Dana  on  03/15  at  09:21 AM
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