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Next entry: No…You Don’t Say? Previous entry: Obama’s team asked to retire $10M of Clinton’s $22M debt

The Childcare Boogeyman

imageGather ‘round real close-like, everyone.  I’ve got a spooky story to tell you about the Government and the Mysterious Case of the Disappearing Mommies.

One of the most dramatic changes in American life in the years since World War II involves the way we raise our children.

We used to do it ourselves. Now, convinced we have better things to do, many of us leave the job to others.

“Better things” including earning the money to feed and clothe them.  Because we’re selfish like that.

Encouraging this flight from parenthood, Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois, the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, has proposed what he calls his “Zero to Five” plan. It is a collection of programs aimed at getting the government involved in the raising of your children from the moment they are born.

“The first part of my plan focuses on providing quality affordable early childhood education to every child in America,” Obama said in a November speech. “As president, I will launch a Children’s First Agenda that provides care, learning and support to families with children ages zero to five.”

“We’ll create Early Learning Grants to help states create a system of high-quality early care and education for all young children and their families,” he said. “And we’ll help more working parents find a safe, affordable place to leave their children during the day by improving the educational quality of our childcare programs and increasing the childcare tax credit.”

In the middle of the night, government stormtroopers will break into your home and give your child a pillow with proper lumbar support.  And then never be heard from again…

This week, Obama upped his ante by vowing to “double funding for after-school programs that help children learn and give parents relief.”

Obama, of course, will also continue to defend your “right” to hire a physician to kill your child in utero so you won’t have to raise the child at all.

Not to be all rainy on the parade, but if you have an abortion, the government most certainly won’t be involved in the raising of said potential future child at all.  Not that I’m necessarily advocating that path, but still.

“In 1948, only about 17 percent of married mothers were in the labor force,” wrote Cohany and Sok. “By 1995, their labor force participation rate had reached 70 percent.”

Note that these are “married mothers”—not single moms, who because of illegitimacy, divorce or a husband’s death are forced to work outside the home.

You know, legitimate reasons to step away from your children long enough to earn the money to keep the heat on.  You heard it here first, ladies - dead husband means a live job!

In fact, as of 2005 (the latest year cited by Cohany and Sok), more than 53 percent of married American women with infants (babies less than 1 year old) worked outside the home.

Some of the data points to the conclusion that this phenomenon is driven as much by changes in our values as in changes in our economy.

For example, relative poverty was clearly not the most powerful factor driving married mothers of infants to work outside the home. In fact, those whose husbands earned an income ranking in the lowest 20 percent were the least likely to go to work, Cohany and Sok discovered, while those whose husbands earned an income that ranked in the highest 20 percent were the second least likely to work.

Less than half of these relatively poor and relatively rich mothers with infants worked.

Yet, of the married mothers with infants whose husbands earned an income in the middle 20 percent, 64.4 percent worked outside the home.

Which, of course, points to poor mothers not having the money to afford the childcare - poverty was the most powerful factor keeping married mothers in the home.  Likewise, well-off mothers wouldn’t need to work outside of the home because they wouldn’t need the money to survive.  So, now, we’ve got economic reasons for staying in or heading out of the home.  What are the moral reasons?

Similarly, Cohany and Sok discovered: “The more children a woman has, the less likely she is to be in the labor force.” Almost 60 percent of married mothers with infants who had only one child worked. Only 36.6 percent of those who had five or more children worked.

In America today, the rarer child makes a scarcer mom.

Yeah, because more children means more money for childcare.  Now…the moral reason!

It is also telling that while 58.5 percent of native-born mothers with infants worked outside the home, only 35 percent of immigrant mothers with infants did.

Because it’s harder for immigrant mothers to find work that, again, would allow them to pay for the childcare to work outside of the home, particularly if they lack familial connections in the area. 

...And the moral reason!

Some force in our culture that was not as strong in 1948 as it is today is devaluing traditional family life and the stay-at-home mom.

...Which would be?!?

But this force could be waning. “After a lengthy and dramatic advance,” concluded Cohany and Sok, “labor force participation rates for married mothers of infants peaked in 1997 and have been relatively stable since 2000.”

...And the force would be?

Through his plans to increase government funding and control of the rearing of children ages “zero to five,” Barack Obama would increase, rather than decrease, the force that drives mothers of infants to leave them in someone else’s care. He would also cause a wholly unjust transfer of wealth.

What the fuck is the moral force? 

The force such that we’ve seen so far is purely economic - and no amount of government programs will change that reality, only provide the opportunity for families to take advantage of them in order to get better jobs and provide a better life for their kids.  You know, like the pagan whores they are.

The “unjust transfer”, incidentally, is couples with a stay-at-home parent paying so that other bad parents can go have jobs and be even more productive members of society.  You know, what took the Roman Empire down.  There’s a reason, incidentally, that the author here isn’t able to generate his moral reason - there isn’t one.  There’s no moral arbiter in society telling us to toss our kids in the brightly colored hole while we go on to the glory of $11 an hour office work, cavorting freely with the admin who constantly talks about his IBS and the sales rep with the drinking problem. 

There are, however, bills to pay and people to feed, a consideration that should be secondary to maintaining the proper place of the mother in the home.  Otherwise, we risk the entire destabilization of our society through kids with proper nutrition and a bevy of Satanist games they learned at daycare, like Ring Around The Christian.

And that, people, is the scariest outcome of them all.

 

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Posted by Jesse Taylor on 10:56 AM • (55) Comments

1948 was about when the campaign to drive women out of the workforce to make room for returning veterans had reached its peak. Also about the time when the big wave of women who had postponed marriage and/or childbearing for the duration of the war all had a child or two (thus reducing the opportunities for childcare by others). And a time when it was national policy to set wages at a level where a single income could support a family. If you’d looked at 1943 or 1935 or pretty much any other historical era you probably wouldn’t have seen a number like that.

If you look at history, childcare has been the sole responsibilty of the biological mother of those children only in certain anomalous times, places and social classes. But I guess if the 50s were the Golden Age, none of that matters.

Comment #1: paul  on  06/25  at  11:19 AM

Paul, I was going to point out the exact same thing.  Quite convenient, that 1948 statistic.

Comment #2: rowmyboat  on  06/25  at  11:27 AM

Interesting how conservatives never manage to make the connection between stagnant wages and women entering the workforce, even though they happened at about the same time. 

You’d almost think that married women started entering the workforce because married men were no longer getting paid enough to support a family on one salary ... naah, that’s crazy talk!  It must have happened because they’re all evil bitchez.

Comment #3: Mnemosyne  on  06/25  at  11:29 AM

Public assistance childcare or the taking of tax money from white men via government programs that benefit women is not only a route to financial equality, it also enables women to get that benefit without being under familial patriarchal control.  Feminism is rooted in Marxism for a reason.

Comment #4: Marxine  on  06/25  at  11:42 AM

You’d almost think that married women started entering the workforce because married men were no longer getting paid enough to support a family on one salary

No, you see, the conservative version of history simply reverses the causality. Those evil bitchez entered the workforce, creating a situation where there was more labor chasing after the same number of jobs, and so employers just naturally had to cut back their wage bills. And if all the women left the workforce, employers would naturally raise salaries right back to where they were.

It sure doesn’t have anything at all to do with the fact that the US was the manufacturing and agricultural engine of the whole damn world in the immediate postwar period, and then it wasn’t anymore. (You’d think, with the fall of the dollar over the past 5 years, that we’d be bringing some of that productive capacity back into the US, but the infrastructure has been thoroughly destroyed, and thanks to the waste of so much money on iraq and the housing bubble there doesn’t seem to be enough investment capacity to rebuild.)

Comment #5: paul  on  06/25  at  11:58 AM

Feminism is rooted in Marxism for a reason.

I’m pretty sure that feminism’s interest in freeing women from the financial control of men predates Marxism.  Marxists may have picked up the theme, but they did not invent the idea.

Comment #6: Mnemosyne  on  06/25  at  12:03 PM

I have Townhall on permanent “ignore.”

Comment #7: Lisa KS  on  06/25  at  12:06 PM

What about the moral force that says that women have as much right to the public sphere as men and might actually want to work?

Comment #8: the15th  on  06/25  at  12:11 PM

I would actually like to be a stay-at-home-mom if I ever had children. I love children, I love raising them, I I honestly don’t mind doing housework at all, and I have poor enough health that makes the “outside” workplace rather trying for me. Anyway, it’s my choice, I think, and the only person I have to “justify” it to is the potential husband/father in the picture.

However, I’m actually finding it harder and harder to find men who aren’t absolutely appalled by the idea! The last boyfriend basically wanted to know how, if I “didn’t work” (I was, of course, expected to do 90% of the housework and child-raising, of course, while he criticized my methods), would we be able to afford an HDTV in every room of the house? I exaggerate, but the conversation definitely focused around consumer wants, rather than needs.

The absolute WORST part about wanting to be a stay-at-home-mom is the feeling that you’re a bad feminist if you want that. I mean, my head says that it’s a personal choice for everyone, but I do tend to keep it quiet in public.

Comment #9: Faye  on  06/25  at  12:19 PM

Re 1948, as the “Baby Boom” officially began in 1945 when the troops returned from war, in 1948 wouldn’t there be a hell of a lot of 2-3-year old kids needing high-levels of care?  Wouldn’t that alone be a significant factor in reducing employments rates of married women?

The argument about inadequate wages has always been fascinating to me.

If you want high enough wages to buy the products of Capitalism to have and enjoy in your home, along with having a home, having food, clothing, etc., you better not have the woman of the house working to improve your financial picture.  Satan wants women in the workforce, and Jesus cries every time a woman drops her kids off at daycare on the way to work.  (Dr. Laura is judging you too…)  Besides, what the hell are you complaining about, slacker!  You’ve got a TV, you’ve got a car, your kids have a Playstation, what the hell else do you need?

But if you suggest that the main beneficiaries of Capitalism slightly decrease their profits to increase the wages of their workers, which might allow some women to leave the workforce - but also might force Mr. Capitalist to settle for the 15,000 sq.ft. mansion instead of the 20,000 sq.ft. one he deserves, he might only be able to replace his yacht every 10-years instead of every 5, and might have to keep the same limousine for 2-years instead of replacing it every year - this represents a fundamental attack on the very foundation of our Glorious and Free society which will inevitably result in the imposition of Communism, the elimination of Christianity, and the slavery of all American citizens.

So don’t even THINK about getting higher wages, you radical Marxist anarchist!...

Comment #10: MikeEss  on  06/25  at  12:27 PM

Childcare has always been with us.  The idea of the nuclear family that lives on its own as its own little unit is a new one, an isolating experience that can lead to all sorts of issues for those expected to stay at home (caveat: yes, some do just fine and love it, but nothing is universal,) and one that ignores a long (as in dating-to-Stone-Age) history of women working their asses off in fields, out gathering food or watching livestock, preparing that food for many hours, and doing all sorts of other things while the little ones are watched by some older woman (usually a woman, but who really knows?) who may or may not have been related to the child.  The men were busy hunting, fishing, and working their asses off in other ways.  And it all worked out great since everyone ate organic, got plenty of exercise, and lived to 35 or so.

Comment #11: jon  on  06/25  at  12:27 PM

“However, I’m actually finding it harder and harder to find men who aren’t absolutely appalled by the idea!”

I know.  It’s like they’re women or something.

Comment #12: Lisa KS  on  06/25  at  12:37 PM

Faye, you’ll find someone.  I had hesitations, but my ex stayed at home for many years and it wasn’t a big sacrifice.  In fact, I’ve always noticed that the least happy people I see driving to work are mothers dropping their children off at school (late) and/or childcare (late) to get to their job (late.)* Money was tight, but workable.  Where you’re seeing hesitation is from the current economic climate (which isn’t really new in any way, but is certainly less-hopeful seeming right now.)  Men who aren’t sure if they can take care of themselves aren’t likely to want to take care of someone else, too, no matter what the advantages of marriage/living together may be.  Add children to that mix, and it might absolutely terrify those who are afraid to look at their checkbooks, even if they don’t want an HDTV in every room.

*One of my platform proposals for the upcoming election for King/Queen of Everything in the Universe is that I’d make school schedules and work schedules coincide better so as to allow working parents the ability to work full days.  The traditional school year is outdated and ridiculous, but it is nothing compared to the ridiculousness of the traditional school day.

Comment #13: jon  on  06/25  at  12:44 PM

Hmmm, I actually find it promising that more and more men are expecting a full partnership in a marriage rather than a disjointed power dynamic in which one person controls all the finances while the other is completely dependent upon his labor to survive.

Comment #14: Blitzgal  on  06/25  at  01:37 PM

I’m not sure if more and more men are expecting a full partnership, since some get a bit antsy about making less than a woman (and some women are antsy about making more,) some men really like to take care of a woman (and some women expect to be taken care of,) and a whole lot of other stuff makes “tradition” work for some people.  What I suspect Faye is seeing is considerable panic over the idea of taking care of someone (and children) at a time when many grew up in broken homes, don’t have a lot of money to begin with, jobs aren’t paying well or certain for life or whatever it is that makes people feel secure, and future costs are hard to predict when energy is going to be so expensive (and children take up a lot of resources even when you do things “right”.)

The men I know are perfectly willing to take up a partnership or a “traditional” arrangement, but they generally can’t afford to be traditional, so it’s hard to say how much of it is settling for what is practical and how much is due to thinking women are equal.  I suspect it’s really hard to get honest answers across the board, but practicality certainly makes working women accepted if not acceptable.

Comment #15: jon  on  06/25  at  01:58 PM

Hmmm, I actually find it promising that more and more men are expecting a full partnership in a marriage rather than a disjointed power dynamic in which one person controls all the finances while the other is completely dependent upon his labor to survive.

I dunno, given a choice between old-school get-in-the-kitchen-and-make-me-a-pie and new school you-have-to-work-so-we-can-buy-things-we-don’t-need-even-if-you-want-to-prioritize-elsewhere, I think I’d stay single.  Just because a guy is ok with his wife working does not necessarily indicate some sort of feminist enlightenment.

The man who’d be willing to support a woman who has taken the risk of forgoing the security of documented outside employment to keep his house and raise his kids without pulling out the “who makes the money, here?” card at every disagreement is probably pretty rare, even though and organized woman could probably make a pretty good powerpoint presentation about how her efforts at home are very beneficial to him.  Agreeing about money is always such a bitch, Faye is right to be picky about this.

Comment #16: Kyso K  on  06/25  at  01:58 PM

Kyso hit it on the head, although it was my own fault for being unclear - it wasn’t that there was concern that we’d be able to stay afloat financially if we had kids and I was a stay-at-home mom (even if you set aside the costs of childcare and assume that my “work” was all net and the kids cost nothing). The concern was that HIS priorities wouldn’t be met if he didn’t have two incomes at his disposal.

The man has a very lucrative job, by the standards of the day, a nice house and car with reasonable payments on each, but he also owns a huge HDTV, a PS3 (and Rockband setup to go with), a Wii, a relatively nice computer, and so on and on. I had no problem with owning these things, per se, but his concern was that he wouldn’t be able to afford these sorts of things in the future (PS4 is coming, someday) AND afford children if the wife didn’t work. So the husband pays for the PS4, and the wife pays for the children. Since, after all, she was the one that made them, I guess.

I don’t really have a problem with this attitude (well, I do, but I recognize that it’s a person’s right to feel this way), but my concern is that it’s not the life I want, and I’m finding fewer potential mates who DON’T fit this mold. And, as Kyso says, I’d rather stay single.

Especially considering that, yes, he wanted more-than-equal control of the finances. Which is why his previous wife left - she didn’t like having to turn in her paycheck at the end of every week so that he could decide their budget. Of course, she didn’t like that because SHE wanted to spend even more than HE did (and she managed to get herself 20 grand in debt less than 6 months after she left), so I thought he’d appreciate my saving attitude more, but - alas - t’was not to be. My previous serious relationship ended for the exact same reason - he wanted me to bring in money for him to spend. Sigh.

Comment #17: Faye  on  06/25  at  02:21 PM

I will add, though, that both men in question were VERY liberated in that they didn’t mind if I made more money than they - as long as they got to spend it. On toys. And video games. And fancy cars. And sharp TVs (I can’t tell a difference between HDTV and regular TV, but my eyes are pretty bad). And a bunch of other crap that I really don’t care about. Not that I mind a man buying things I don’t care about - I just think that’s what a budget is for, and - for me - kids come first on the budget. Oh well.

Comment #18: Faye  on  06/25  at  02:24 PM

I’ve had a similar situation as Faye. One problem in my last relationship was that he expected me to work so we could afford toys (and at the time I was supporting him and myself and school), whereas in the future I wanted to be a SAHM because I think the education system is fundamentally jacked and I very much want to homeschool.

I’m now infertile and working part time while my husband works full time. We both want me to be a SAHM and homeschool, and have totally equal control of the finances. So despite the more traditional set up, it’s a far more egalitarian relationship.

Comment #19: Ashley  on  06/25  at  02:26 PM

The big problem with the SAHM dynamic, from my point of view, is that it works OK (if it works) until the youngest child in the family is about 5.Then there’s not nearly as much care to be done and the kids in fact need some space to develop as individuals. So unless you’re a quiverful type or have contraception or spacing issues, that’s at most 10-12 years. Out of a nonretired adult lifespan of 40-50 years.

Comment #20: paul  on  06/25  at  02:27 PM

Paul, I know people say that, but they honestly don’t know what they are talking about. I was an only child and I never saw my SAH mother off her feet for more than 5 minutes at a time. You wouldn’t believe how much time is required by grocery shopping, food preparation, laundry, cleaning (dusting, dishes, vacuuming), helping out at the family church, taking care of the grandparents, planning family outings/vacations/holidays, helping with homework, ferrying me to swimming/ballet/gymnastics/tap dance lessons and god knows what all else she did for us.

In exchange for my mother being a SAHM, I got a clean allergen-free environment, healthy meals, higher-than-average education, extracurricular activities, and a LOT of other privileges that I simply COULD NOT give a child if one was dropped in my lap right now, while I work. “Stay at home mom” is a misnomer - mom or not, there’s a LOT to be done at home.

And - despite the advances of feminism - women still do most of that work on their own. Only now they are expected to work outside the home too and not complain or be tired all the time. BS.

Comment #21: Faye  on  06/25  at  02:35 PM

Women (even moms!) work for the same reasons men work.  Money is at or toward the top of the list, sure.  But we also engage in waged work for a sense of accomplishment; to make an impact on the wider world; to be engaged creatively and intellectually with other adults and to develop and sustain a sense of self-reliance.  Any discussion of working women/mothers that falls back on a strict economic rationale loses credibility because it obscures this reality in a great many women’s lives (including mine, my mother’s and most of the women in my extended family).  It also obscures the fact that women, with and without children and/or spouses, have been present in the waged workforce for pretty much as long as there’s been a waged workforce.  In 1790, in Massachusetts, participation of women in waged labor was 2/3 that of men.  Taxation of wages without representation was, in fact, one of the earliest arguments for female suffrage.  Failing to understand these very basic realities plays right into the hands of conservocreeps who watched “Ozzie and Harriet” like it was a documentary.

Comment #22: Missyanne Thrope  on  06/25  at  02:42 PM

My previous serious relationship ended for the exact same reason - he wanted me to bring in money for him to spend. Sigh.

I have to say, that is by far the most bizarre thing I’ve ever heard.  These guys expect you to give them the money that you earned?  WTF is that about?

Comment #23: Mnemosyne  on  06/25  at  02:59 PM

I dunno, given a choice between old-school get-in-the-kitchen-and-make-me-a-pie and new school you-have-to-work-so-we-can-buy-things-we-don’t-need-even-if-you-want-to-prioritize-elsewhere, I think I’d stay single.

Also, being single means you get to eat all the pie.

Comment #24: LauraB  on  06/25  at  03:07 PM

I assume this Terrence Jeffrey guy supports the repeal of welfare reform, so that poor mothers may spend their time at home at their important job of raising their kids instead of getting up in the predawn blackness to take buses to reach their far away minimum wage jobs that don’t pay for day care.

Demobilization after World War II was not instantaneous—apparently troops yearning to be home rioted at overseas bases in January 1946. There were still a million and a half troops as late as June 1947.

Comment #25: Hector B.  on  06/25  at  03:15 PM

Well, Mnemosyne, in the first relationship, both our paychecks went into a shared bank account. Which then was promptly emptied because my husband would go out and write checks for a bunch of toys I didn’t want and we couldn’t afford. And then the rent check that I had written would bounce because he couldn’t be bothered to TELL me he spent all our money on toys. And he refused to adhere to a budget because it was “our” money and not “mine” so why should I have the right to tell him what to do? I can only compare it to being married to a 5 year old.

With the second relationship, it was made clear to me that - in the event of marriage - he would make the budget and I would adhere to it. Regardless of who made what or how much of each. Since I have very few “optional” expenditures (I amuse myself pretty easily with an old computer and video games that I’ve owned for ten years now), and since he had quite a lot, it only made sense that the majority of our “optional” spending budget would go to him, rather than deprive him.

I actually knew a couple that had two separate accounts - her money went to “her account” and vice versa. I figured there would be problems when I saw she was struggling to save for children, a house, a new car, etc. and he was blowing all his on (I swear this is true) Yu-Gi-Oh cards. He was in his late twenties at the time. I moved before the shit hit the fan, but I am willing to bet it wasn’t pretty when they finally had “the kid talk” and she realized that she’d been the only one planning for the future.

Comment #26: Faye  on  06/25  at  03:21 PM

“I was an only child and I never saw my SAH mother off her feet for more than 5 minutes at a time. You wouldn’t believe how much time is required by grocery shopping, food preparation, laundry, cleaning (dusting, dishes, vacuuming), helping out at the family church, taking care of the grandparents, planning family outings/vacations/holidays, helping with homework, ferrying me to swimming/ballet/gymnastics/tap dance lessons and god knows what all else she did for us.”

That was a function of your mother in particular, not stay at home mothers in general.  I’ve known WOHM who did all that stuff, and SAHMs who did none of it and indeed did sit around on their asses and daydream for hours of the day once the kids were school-age (my mom, for example).  I don’t think there is any such thing as “typical” SAHMs and WOHMs.  I find that whether or not a woman works outside the home really has a much smaller effect on what she does in terms of family work than her particular personality and personal priorities.

Comment #27: Lisa KS  on  06/25  at  03:21 PM

“With the second relationship, it was made clear to me that - in the event of marriage - he would make the budget and I would adhere to it. Regardless of who made what or how much of each.”

Wow, that so sounds like my second husband.  I should say, my second ex-husband.  :D

Comment #28: Lisa KS  on  06/25  at  03:23 PM

Lisa, that may be so, but my point was more that a motivated woman can find plenty around the house to occupy her time - despite the fairy tale that, once a kid is 5, there’s just NOTHING TO DO AT HOME.

Or, to put it another way: My previous BF prides himself on how much he helps around the house. He says, often, that he’d make a great husband because he “does all the housekeeping”. He doesn’t dust, he lets the dishes pile up for days on end, he only vacuums once a year when his mother is coming to visit, his house smells of cat urine because he can’t be bothered to find out which one of them is going on the rug and then retrain it, he doesn’t make the beds, and his living room looks like an explosion. He DOES, however, do laundry.

When I pointed out that I would have to do all those other things if we were married so, on genuflection, he doesn’t REALLY “do all the housekeeping”, he pointed out that if I had higher standards of cleanliness than he, he could help that, now could he? And if there were things that *I* wanted done that *he* didn’t care about, it would be my place to do it, not his. So he neatly wiggles out of doing the housework AND out of being grateful when I do it (because he doesn’t “care”).

So, sure, there’s lots of spouses who don’t help with the housework. But that makes them a lazy, dirty spouse, and it’s got nothing to do with stay-at-home-mothering (or fathering).

Comment #29: Faye  on  06/25  at  03:30 PM

The moment someone uses “...in the years since World War II” for anything related to social issues, you can bet that some major lack of historical awareness is coming your way.

Comment #30: inge  on  06/25  at  04:57 PM

Faye, I’m not trying to pick on you because I think you should do what you want (and hold out for a partner who wants the same things), but I did want to say that I had all those things growing up - a clean house, nutritious, home-cooked meals, extracurricular activities, vacations - and my mother has worked my entire life. The only time she wasn’t employed was when she was in college, when we were babies, and for the last few years of her PhD program (which was also because her company was sold and she declined an offer of a transfer so she could finish her program - if the company hadn’t been sold, she probably would have kept working, and it’s not like finishing a PhD isn’t work, anyway). I understand she surely had more stress trying to balance all that, and if you’d rather skip that, that’s fine and understandable, but this notion that women who work let other people raise their kids for them or somehow provide an inferior, less loving home environment really bothers me.

Comment #31: chingona  on  06/25  at  04:59 PM

I found the cited Bureau of Labor Statistics article here: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2007/02/art2full.pdf
Indeed, you would think with their implicit post-WWII comparison, they would pick some baseline data from before WWII. During the Depression, for example, often wives would work while their husbands would stay home and look after the kids, if my family is typical.

Faye: friends of mine set up three bank accounts to give each economic freedom: his spending money, her spending money, and the household funds. That way they didn’t have to justify what each wanted to spend money on to the other, and the important things got paid for. The wife came from a large, poorish family, so she wanted to send money back home every month. The husband liked to spend his money on toys and backpacking trips with his brothers. When they had their kid, his expenses were paid from the joint account.

Comment #32: Hector B.  on  06/25  at  05:08 PM

Chingona, I was not trying to create the impression that women who work outside the home provide an inferior home life, and I deeply apologize if I came off that way - that was definitely not what I was trying for!

I initially was reacting to Paul’s statement that there’s really no point to being a SAHM once the kids are past 5 years of age - as if all SAHMs with teenagers are sitting around eating chocolates and watching the ‘soaps’ all day. I run into that a LOT when I say I want to be a SAHM - the “oh, you don’t want to WORK” meme. No, I want to work _at home_. That’s why we used to call it ‘homemakers’.

Then Lisa pointed out that not ALL SAHMs work around the house, which I agree happens, but my point was just that a SAHM with a teenager is not, ipso facto, a SAHM who sits around all day.

I greatly admire women who hold down outside work AND provide the bulk of childcare and homemaking. I don’t think I have the constitution for that level of stress - I used to collapse after cleaning and cooking for the BF after a 9 hour work shift - but the fact that you are out there is a source of constant admiration from me. I’m sorry that I implied otherwise in my careless posting.

Comment #33: Faye  on  06/25  at  05:10 PM

Coming from a working class background, I really don’t understand what I find to be a very pop-culture driven meme that “people today” are throwing their money away on shit and any family could survive on a single income if they only reduce their material waste.  The women in my family have always worked, whether it was on the family farm back in the mid-1800’s or in the factory as my grandmother did during WWII.  They worked because they had to; because they could not afford not to.  My parents equally contributed to the family finances, and I know that’s the main reason my brother, mother and I didn’t end up losing the house when my father unexpectedly died when I was sixteen years old.  Even so, my mother had a crash course in self-sufficiency.

I’m not anti-SaHM.  But I’m sick of the attitude that women who work are damaging their children, selfish, spending too much money on toys, etc.  Even before my father died my family couldn’t even afford to go on vacations.  But we always had a roof over our heads and food in our bellies.

Comment #34: Blitzgal  on  06/25  at  05:23 PM

No, you see, the conservative version of history simply reverses the causality. Those evil bitchez entered the workforce, creating a situation where there was more labor chasing after the same number of jobs, and so employers just naturally had to cut back their wage bills. And if all the women left the workforce, employers would naturally raise salaries right back to where they were.

Of course that completely flies in the face of free market theory.  The more people who enter the workforce, the more money families make, the more money they have to spend, voila, economic boom and there’s more wages for everybody.  It works that way if people aren’t entering the workforce simply to maintain their current standard of living and if the country isn’t run by a bunch of kleptomaniacs, determined never to share the wealth.

The “unjust transfer”, incidentally, is couples with a stay-at-home parent paying so that other bad parents can go have jobs and be even more productive members of society

No.  The unjust transfer is that poor and middle class kids get better early childhood education, do better in real school, go to college, and take a job that belongs to a wealthy kid by birthright.

Comment #35: keshmeshi  on  06/25  at  05:41 PM

Faye:  My husband and I have three accounts:  his, mine and ours.  That way, if one of us wants to buy toys, we have our own money right there, but we can still pay the rent.

Seems like a much better middle ground than either handing your paycheck to your husband/wife or having completely separate accounts.

Comment #36: Mnemosyne  on  06/25  at  05:47 PM

How are these policies supposed to help women who are abandoned? My mother never had a choice but to work, because my father simply couldn’t get steady work. Then he left us and never paid a lick of child support, which was a paltry amount anyway and certainly not enough for her to stay home to raise 4 children. AFDC was created during the Great Depression years as part of FDR’s New Deal in response to the epidemic of men deserting their families. But to hear the conservatives, you’d think men didn’t start abandoning their families until Griswold v. Connecticut or Roe v. Wade. I really wish these troglodytes could get their heads out of their delusional asses.

MikeEss, I just about choked on my tea at your 11:27AM entry. :D

My husband and I have come to a very workable, very egalitarian arrangement regarding our finances. I graduated from nursing school in 2006, which commands a quite nice wage in California. We weren’t married yet, at the time, but I asked him to let me support him while he went to school to attain certification or a degree in whatever field he chose. He was very recalcitrant at first, to say the least, but he agreed to try it for one semester. I know *I* couldn’t stand the thought of having to ask for money from anyone, so I set things up in the following way: We have one main account into which funds for joint and household expenses are paid; it became a joint checking account once we were married. We each have separate checking accounts into which an equal amount of money is deposited each paycheck; these are our “do whatever the hell we want with the money” funds. At first, he kept asking my permission to buy things for himself until I repeatedly told him (in an irritated tone), “it’s your money; buy whatever you want.”

So we each get the same amount of cash to play with as we will each paycheck, and we both have to agree on joint expenditures and any life-altering decisions (such as relocating for a job). When he gets his radiologic technician cert (he’s on a waiting list *sigh*), we’ll continue with the arrangement, except that we’ll be able to save/invest more and I might be able to work part-time or per diem for a while. I wouldn’t have it any other way, because, the way I see it, we are equal players on a team.

Neither of us wants to be parents, so we’ll never have to deal with the SAHM/SAHD scenario, thank dog.

Comment #37: BJSurvivor  on  06/25  at  05:50 PM

“Also, being single means you get to eat all the pie. “

OK. That does it, I’m filing for divorce NOW! wink

Just kidding. I’m already divorcing. But if I were hesitating, that would have convinced me.

Comment #38: The One True Vegan  on  06/25  at  05:51 PM

Blitzgal, your point is well-taken in regard to the fact that, historically, most women have worked due to economic necessity (it’s just the location and nature of the work that changes).  But we also need to get beyond the idea that a woman who works because she wants some nice things for herself/family is selfish. Sure, she could stay at home and her family could get by on single income, but maybe a nice vacation each year is important to her. Why should she have to apologize for that? 

What about the woman who would work regardless of economic circumstances because she loves it?  I am currently a SAHM and graduate student. My husband is in computers, so theoretically, I do not have to work and we could live a real bare bones lifestyle (which we do right now).  But I love the work I do and want to continue it regardless of the income potential—the income is a bonus because it would allow for a few more comforts in life.

In general, we need to stop feeding this meme that a woman who does ANYTHING except tend to children, husband, and housework is monstrous and selfish.  Unfortunately, just as the Democrats often argue using the frame developed by Republicans, feminists often end up doing the same with anti-feminists. We need to deny the validity of their worldview.  Each time they claim that more women work outside the home as if in and of itself that is a significant fact, we need to say “So what?”  If you want to have a discussion on economics, that’s a different story.

Comment #39: history_mom  on  06/25  at  05:56 PM

Sorry if this double-posts, it didn’t show up on “refresh”.

Faye, I had a friend in a similar situation. She just had the bad luck to fall for a series of freeloaders, who wanted a servant that wouldn’t even cost them money for room and board. One of them was actually sweet, but lazy, the others were just bastards. Fortunately she came to her senses before she had children, or was trapped in debt. (Because a well-earning stingy bastard will buy expensive stuff and then expect his minimum-wage girlfriend to pay half of it, after all, she will look at that plasma screen TV too!) These types of guys are like a Porsche—you can afford them only if every necessity is already paid for, and even then the running cost can ruin you.

Paul: The big problem with the SAHM dynamic, from my point of view, is that it works OK (if it works) until the youngest child in the family is about 5.Then there’s not nearly as much care to be done and the kids in fact need some space to develop as individuals.

As a kid, I pitied my friends who had SAHMs (the middle class city types, not the farmer’s wifes who worked 14 hours a day and didn’t care what the kids were up to as long as the chores got done), because they never had a moment where they could be sure of privacy or do anything they enjoyed without interruption.

Faye: I actually knew a couple that had two separate accounts

My mother and my stepfather have been doing this for 30 years. Both have a list of things they pay for regulary (he pays insurances, she pays groceries, and so on), books and clothes and cars are paid by who wants them, and big things (new TV, roof repair, ...) are negotiated on. In 30 years I never once heard them fight about money. (Having money helped.)

but my point was more that a motivated woman can find plenty around the house to occupy her time

Well, housework is said to behave like an ideal gas: it fills all available time equally. If you have two hours, it will take two hours. If you have twelve, it will take twelve. It’s a mystery.

Comment #40: inge  on  06/25  at  05:57 PM

Blitzgal: Coming from a working class background, I really don’t understand what I find to be a very pop-culture driven meme that “people today” are throwing their money away on shit [...] The women in my family have always worked, whether it was on the family farm back in the mid-1800’s or in the factory as my grandmother did during WWII.

It’s not only the working class. My great-grandparents were petty bourgeoise before WWII, shopkeepers and innkeepers, and everyone in the family had to work to keep the business running. Actually, I cannot think of a historical example outside of the 1950s/60s where a) families could afford to live on what one person could make and b) didn’t leave the raising of their kids to nannies. (I might overlook something here.)

Comment #41: inge  on  06/25  at  06:09 PM

Faye, Mnemosyne & the rest of the joint spending thread -

I’m not married to the man I live with, so we have a lot of duplicate financial stuff.  I think at the moment we have *seven* accounts with the same bank:  His checking, his savings, mortgage (in his name), roof repair loan (his), my checking, my savings, and my IRA (I change jobs too often to do 401K). 

If we ever get around to getting married, which is a higher priority than filling in the swimming pool that some crazy person thought was a good idea twenty or thirty years ago but is less urgent than repairing the shifted retaining wall, I’ll put forth the notion of a shared account. 

Right now the arrangement is “if he wants something, he has to spend -his- money on it; if I want something, I have to spend -my- money on it; and if it’s an unavoidable expense or a shared desire, we’ll split the bill.”  This arrangement works because we are both unpardonable cheapskates with fairly modest tastes and we enjoy the game of seeing how far we can scrape a dollar.

Comment #42: Thena, Sultana of Stale Raisin Bread  on  06/25  at  06:14 PM

I greatly admire women who hold down outside work AND provide the bulk of childcare and homemaking. I don’t think I have the constitution for that level of stress - I used to collapse after cleaning and cooking for the BF after a 9 hour work shift - but the fact that you are out there is a source of constant admiration from me.

Even better, we can work outside the home and share childcare and homemaking responsibilities with our partners. I still do the majority, it’s true. We’re probably 60/40, which isn’t exactly feminist utopialand, but it’s better than either of our parents did, and hopefully our children will do even better. As it is, it’s stressful sometimes, and sometimes the house isn’t as clean as either of us would like, but we make it work. Sure we fight about it sometimes and sometimes we need to recalibrate who does what as life circumstances and work circumstances change, but there are men out there who understand that being an adult and living in a household carries with it obligations other than finding ways to spend other people’s money.

Comment #43: chingona  on  06/25  at  06:22 PM

Mnemosyne, the last boyfriend wanted to do the 3 accounts thing, but he set how much went into the “discretionary” accounts. What happens when I disagree? All that to say that I think you can have as many or as few accounts as you want, but if the spouses don’t respect each other, it won’t work.

Comment #44: Faye  on  06/25  at  06:54 PM

Just a thought on how one partner staying at home can affect the family dynamic ... I’m sure some people can make this work without power issues, but we can be really affected by cultural and social pressures, even if we start out with good intentions and an egalitarian relationship. Money is a very powerful signifier of status and control - even if you don’t have a lot of it or aren’t buying all kinds of gadgets. When I made a lot more money than my husband (he was in grad school), I did, over time, develop a little bit of a “who are you to tell me anything?” attitude toward certain decisions, especially ones that involved major joint purchases. I’m not proud of that, and I don’t think I expressed it too much outwardly, but it was there. I have an aunt who stayed home until her youngest was a junior in college, and it really changed their relationship, becoming very traditional in the way they interacted.

I think the other important thing is that whatever the arrangement, both parties have to feel that the other one is contributing equally to the household. When I was in the Peace Corps, I lived in a rural village without running water or electricity. Washing clothes for a family of eight, gathering firewood, bringing water, caring for livestock, grinding your own fluor, making blankets - it’s a major, major job, and as shitty as many women’s situation was, men couldn’t really avoid the fact that their quality of life was way higher because of all the work that women did. With modern appliances and running water, the actual time and effort that can be spent on housework is both actually less and much less visible. Childcare, for those who don’t do it all day, can be mistaken for “having fun and playing with the kids.” I think there is a very real risk that the person working outside the home will not perceive the person staying at home as truly being an equal contributor to the household, and that can have a corrosive effect. For those who want to have one partner stay home, I think that’s something to put some thought and energy into, to make sure you both see the decision as valid and important.

Comment #45: chingona  on  06/25  at  06:54 PM

Mnemosyne, the last boyfriend wanted to do the 3 accounts thing, but he set how much went into the “discretionary” accounts. What happens when I disagree? All that to say that I think you can have as many or as few accounts as you want, but if the spouses don’t respect each other, it won’t work.

Of course!  I guess what we’re saying is that the specific arrangement of accounts is not necessarily the problem.  I know people with a single joint account who are perfectly happy.  But I have to admit, I can’t even imagine being with a man who would expect me to put my entire paycheck into the same account he uses to buy toys for himself.

But, then, I’ve been with the same guy for 8 years, married for 2, so it may just be the memory of single life fading into the distance.

Comment #46: Mnemosyne  on  06/25  at  09:15 PM

My husband and I have always had separate checking accounts and a joint savings account.  I knew having a joint checking account was a terrible idea because our Catholic pre-marriage counselors recommended it to the high heavens.

Comment #47: Shaenon  on  06/25  at  09:24 PM

Any arrangement can work provided the priorities are shared.  Accounts, working, not working, whatever: it’s all in the priorities and sticking to a plan, hopefully a rational one.

Comment #48: jon  on  06/25  at  10:37 PM

We have a single joint checking account and it works fine for now because we have similar salaries, not a whole ton of discretionary income to spend on toys for either of us, fairly stingy/responsible habits when it comes to spending on toys, and a fairly strict policy of not saying anything about the other person’s spending (which is possible because neither of us is endangering the joint venture with irresponsible choices).

We do have separate retirement accounts, which is important to me. I certainly hope that we don’t divorce, but if we were to grow apart and do so, I’d like to take my savings with me with no ugly fight over the division and who put what in (especially because I make more than he does - at least for now).

But yeah, the main thing is shared priorities and mutual respect.

Comment #49: chingona  on  06/25  at  11:31 PM

Mnemosyne, I don’t know if it’s the singles game, or if I’m a doormat, or if it’s just that this stuff never comes out on the first date - it trickles out piece by piece and by the time you put it all together, you’re emotionally involved and you have to make A TOUGH CHOICE and I hate those. Probably a combination of all three. But I’m learning a lottle more each time and now that I’m in a much more stable position (Engineer) than I was for the last few years (Student Waitress), I’m finding that I can afford to be a little more picky. It’s probably all in my head, but I’ll take what confidence I get. wink

Word to jon, and chingona - I really think it’s all about respect and common ground. I’ve come to understand why most marriages break up “over money” - it’s one of the few areas that you almost HAVE to talk about and therefore the communication breakdowns rise to the surface.

Comment #50: Faye  on  06/25  at  11:39 PM

Faye, not picking on what you said, really, but my first thought (and I’m 55 and my children are adults and I’ve worked outside the home my entire married life, and still do) is that if you have health issues that make working outside the home slightly problematic for you, I really don’t understand how you can reasonably expect staying at home, doing the housework and raising kids to be less problematic.  Because it’s not paid doesn’t mean that it’s not work or that it’s not tiring and any idea of getting and keeping things organized can be and are tossed aside at a moment’s notice by a kid suddenly spiking a fever and vomiting.

Comment #51: Ivyfree  on  06/26  at  06:24 AM

As a SAHM I KNOW that it is important for a child to be with his/her mother - you can not tell me that even the BEST daycare money can buy is better than the care I give my child…. 100% 1 on 1 all day.

More moms could stay home to be with their children if our tax rate wasn’t so high….. so Mr Barack Obama - go ahead and tell me how you will pay for this 0-5 child care plan…. oh, let me guess - you’ll raise the taxes on my husbands pay so much that I will be FORCED to work just to pay for your goverment issued child care.

Comment #52: kim  on  06/26  at  10:32 AM

Ivyfree, without getting too specific on the Internet, I guess you’ll just have to trust that I’m an adult and I know what’s best for me. smile

Comment #53: Faye  on  06/26  at  11:14 AM

More moms could stay home to be with their children if our tax rate wasn’t so high…..

My effective tax rate this year was 10%.  You really need to learn how to use TurboTax if you’re paying more than 15%.

Comment #54: Mnemosyne  on  06/26  at  11:51 AM

kim: Funny how my husband has been able to do an excellent job of stay at home parenting for the past 11 years without having a uterus. He must be that good. :D

Mnemosyne, our effective tax rate on ~$50K income was 4.59%, probably because of the additional goodies we get for raising a spawn. Honestly, I feel a little guilty about that…

Comment #55: Ab_Normal  on  06/26  at  12:42 PM
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