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Next entry: How come people aren’t so scared and resentful anymore? Previous entry: God, the insanity just won’t stop

The complex questions about the marriage equality movement and the Olson/Boies federal lawsuit

Legal IssuesLGBT

(There are Qs of the Day in this post as well.)

Bush v. Gore adversaries Ted Olson and David Boies appeared on Larry King last night to make their case why it’s the right time to pursue a federal decision on marriage equality arguing that Prop 8 violates the U.S. constitutional guarantee of equal protection and due process.

They present a logical argument on why the Prop 8 ban on marriage equality is wrong, citing that marriage is a basic human right and states should not be allowed to discriminate.  For instance, when they appeared later on CNN with John King (transcript isn’t up yet), Olson asked whether Dr. Martin Luther King would have stated the country should pursue equality on a state-by-state basis, or that desegregating the schools was a state’s rights issue and we’ll wait until the people catch up to change matters. BTW, Olsen said that

they did

consult with LGBT orgs, which all urged them not to pursue this case at this time, but are moving forward using the reasoning that the four couples they represent should not have to wait for fundamental rights based on the U.S. Constitution.

You can’t disagree with the merit of these arguments, really. What is causing a great deal of consternation in LGBT organizations is the approach and timing—the orgs strongly disagree with this case because they feel it is too soon to bring the matter up on a track to be heard by the current U.S. Supreme Court at this time, which is why you see the speedy press release from the coalition of orgs restating its strategy (see my earlier post).

The groups released a new publication, “Why the ballot box and not the courts should be the next step on marriage in California.” This publication discourages people from bringing premature lawsuits based on the federal Constitution because, without more groundwork, the U.S. Supreme Court likely is not yet ready to rule that same-sex couples cannot be barred from marriage. The groups also revised “Make Change, Not Lawsuits,” which was released after the California Supreme Court decision ending the ban on marriage for same-sex couples in California. This publication encourages couples who have legally married to ask friends, neighbors and institutions to honor their marriages, but discourages people from bringing lawsuits.

This approach has merit as well—on the basis that incremental change allows people to learn, on a personal basis, that there is no threat to our country or any one else’s marriage because gay and lesbian couples simply want the same rights as they do.

OK, now there is another reason why it can be argued that a federal case has merit at this time, and it needs discussion. Regardless of the timing of the case, part of what is going on here is by filing at the federal level it is a direct challenge to this White House. The Obama admin has tried mightily (and ridiculously) to keep this a states’ rights issue —to the point of believing there’s no reason to even have to publicly recognize the progress and setbacks.

In my opinion, this is also a part of the motivation behind the Olsen/Boies lawsuit. After all—how can you have a President of the United States who is a constitutional scholar out there saying “God is in the mix” and tossing off “it’s an issue best left to the states”? After all, his parents’ relationship was illegal in many states, and Loving v. Virginia was needed to nullify all of those state bans.

Again, this is a political problem of candidate and President Obama’s own making that is now blowing up in his administration’s face. I’m not surprised that this is happening; I am kind of surprised it’s happening so soon—but we, the LGBT orgs, and the big brains at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue do not have the ability to shut down the constant equality questions being bombarded at Robert Gibbs or a lawsuit like this.

I’m not arguing that Boies and Olson are pursuing the right strategic path, mind you, but I understand the sentiment and frustration behind it—I’m just tossing this out there as a discussion point, since we are all tired of the disingenuous BS coming out of the Obama White House through the clownish, embarrassing dodges of Press Secretary Robert Gibbs nearly every day. Also, we don’t see

any

of the LGBT orgs criticizing the non-answers and evasive maneuvers coming out in the name of our “fierce advocate” at these pressers—do you think this silence would have occurred under Bush?

So this is where we are, and it’s a complete mess. Anything remotely representing a planned strategy is obliterated; now everyone has to deal with the reality at hand, including the fact that the most recent polls show a drop in support for marriage equality from last month (see chart below), a result quickly picked up by the fundies. Of course looking at the progression over the years, the change in level of support has risen dramatically, which underscores the fact that those who oppose equality are going to lose this battle in the long run:

But, there’s an obvious question lurking there that represents the underpinning of the federal lawsuit—why do polls matter at all, other than for political cover? Everyone participating in this kabuki dance knows we’re dealing with a fundamental right—and civil rights should never be determined by polls, the ballots or politicians. This will be determined by the U.S. Supreme Court.


And about all of the questions about who’s funding the Boies/Olson case. I’ve heard that it’s prominent wealthy progressives bankrolling the American Foundation for Equal Rights, so that would deep-six the Olson right wing conspiracy stories.

But if you think about it, this issue of who is funding the fed lawsuit is kind of irrelevant on some level. The situation, regardless of political persuasion, is really about whether the goal of marriage equality is seen as an incremental process leading to a positive resolution, or, as with prior civil rights movements, seen as a fundamental constitutional issue because 1) the states will never consistently settle the matter, and 2) in the absence of a federal decision, in layman’s terms, you simply cannot have a civil right in the U.S. that one loses based on driving across the wrong state line.

***

So it’s a very difficult series of Qs of the day for you—

* is Boies’ and Olson’s rejection of the current legal strategy supported by our orgs a tactical error for the marriage equality battle? It represents a “Hail Mary” approach, polls and pols be damned, to solve the patchwork problem of uneven equality around the country all at once, taking the moral high road. But it’s a chance the ball will be dropped and the setback with a loss could seriously damage the movement for marriage equality

* is pursuing equality on the path our LGBT organizations represent a sound strategy? The path of taking the state route gains rights for gay and lesbians with each success—and it also ends at SCOTUS. However, it forces those in states with constitutional bans on marriage equality to languish without full civil rights until a favorable decision at that level at some unknown point in the future. It also relies on additional gains that can be made with the repeal of DOMA, for instance, something also promised but that we may not see any time soon.

***

I received an email from Tobias Wolff, Professor of Law at the University of Pennsylvania Law School, who had these interesting and thoughtful matters to share as we discuss this.

In 1972—5 years after Loving v. Virginia, the anti-miscegenation case—the Supreme Court actually did weigh in on the question of the federal constitutional argument for marriage equality.  In a case called Baker v. Nelson, the Minnesota courts had denied a marriage equality claim by a gay couple.  The case was appealed to the Supreme Court of the United States, which responded by dismissing the appeal “for want of a substantial federal question.”  This is a type of action that the Court uses only infrequently—even a lot of lawyers have not heard of it.  What it basically means is that the Supreme Court dismissed the appeal without issuing any written opinion, expressing the view that there was no serious federal or constitutional issue to be decided—in other words, it said that it could dismiss without even issuing a written opinion because the claim on appeal did not have enough merit to warrant a full explanation.

This kind of dismissal is binding on the lower federal courts.  (It is not binding on state courts, though some choose to follow it anyway.)  What that means is that, when the Supreme Court has spoken to a federal issue in this backhanded way, and the exact same issue comes before a lower federal court in a later case, the proper thing for the lower federal court to do is to dismiss the case because it is bound by the Supreme Court’s earlier action.

As should go without saying, the Supreme Court’s summary dismissal in Baker v. Nelson was flat wrong.  It was wrong when it was decided in 1972, and, more to the point, I doubt that any serious lawyer would argue that it can be defended on the merits today.  Even if you disagree with the constitutional arguments in favor of marriage equality, I don’t think anyone could argue today that the issue does not present a serious and substantial question, especially in light of the Court’s rulings in Romer v. Evans (the Colorado / Amendment 2 case from 1996) and Lawrence v. Texas.

But the Supreme Court has also said, on several occasions and very forcefully, that lower federal courts are not permitted to disregard binding Supreme Court precedent simply because there have been intervening changes in the Court’s own cases that undermine the original decision.  Rather, the Supreme Court has said that it is the Court’s job, not the job of lower federal courts, to say when an earlier Supreme Court precedent has been effectively overruled by subsequent developments.

What does all of this mean for the Olson / Boies lawsuit?  Insofar as their lawsuit argues that marriage equality for everyone is required under the U.S. Constitution, there is a strong argument that the lower federal courts should simply dismiss and decline to hear the case because they are bound by Baker v. Nelson.  If that happens, then the Supreme Court itself is the only one that could overrule its earlier precedent and actually decide the case on the merits.

This is an important fact to understand for a number of reasons.  First, as a simple matter of predicting what will happen, it’s entirely possible that the Olson / Boies lawsuit will be dismissed very quickly by the lower federal courts.  Second, it reinforces the point made by the LGBT groups about the importance of laying a solid groundwork before we get our one shot at litigating this issue before the Supreme Court (and, realistically, we will likely get only one shot).  Baker v. Nelson prevents the lower federal courts from engaging in the ordinary process of wrestling with a contentious issue in a series of cases before the Supreme Court finally weighs in.  It is therefore all the more important to develop a solid foundation of precedent in the state courts, because we may not have the opportunity to do that in the federal courts.  And, with all due respect to Olson and Boies and despite my whole-hearted agreement that we should not have to wait to enjoy the rights that we deserve, the fact is that the Civil Rights Movement was the most strategic, careful and patient litigation effort that this country had ever seen, waiting decades to bring the school desegregation and anti-miscegenation cases until they knew that they had laid a sufficient groundwork to achieve a victory before the Supreme Court.  I am thrilled at the outrage that these two men feel on our behalf and I welcome their input and their efforts.  But they do need to learn their history.

Two more quick points.  This kind of “dismissal for want of a substantial federal question” is not a good way to decide cases, and there is a strong argument that it should always be construed narrowly.  So, for example, in the challenge to the federal portions of DOMA that GLAD has brought in Massachusetts federal court, Baker v. Nelson should not pose any obstacle.  GLAD is raising a very different kind of claim—that the federal government can’t discriminate against couples who have already been validly married by their home state.  The lower federal courts are free to decide that issue on its merits.

By the same token, if Olson and Boies had brought a much narrower challenge to Proposition 8—if they had argued that the particular sequence of events in California raised a unique constitutional problem because Prop 8 took marriage away from a group of people who already enjoyed equal rights under state law—then matters would be different.  Baker v. Nelson probably would not control a more carefully drafted lawsuit like that, and the dangers associated with such a lawsuit might be somewhat more contained (though there would still be serious questions about whether it represents the right approach).  There are hints of that more narrow argument in the Olson / Boies complaint, but only hints—in the end, they do not make the more careful argument but instead just go for broke.

 

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Posted by Pam Spaulding on 11:16 AM • (73) Comments

Second, it reinforces the point made by the LGBT groups about the importance of laying a solid groundwork before we get our one shot at litigating this issue before the Supreme Court

DING! DING! DING! DING!

In a law review article the year after Goodridge was decided, GLAD attorney Mary Bonauto noted that the decision here in MA did not come out of the blue.  The SJC had already decided cases that recognized same-sex couples and lesbian and gay (primarily) parents as families. There was case law establishing these relationships, and a history of public policy aimed at integrating LGBT people, and at protecting lesbian and gay families (particularly in parenting).

That framework simply doesn’t exist at the federal level. Romer and Lawrence—even if you keep in mind the marriage framework of Loving, </i>Skinner</i>, and Redhail—simply do not establish a strong enough legal basis.  (Shit, even in Lawrence, Kennedy made it pretty clear he wasn’t ready to get on the marriage train.)

This is just asking for bad results. There’s no reason to believe this case has any reasonable chance of success and every reason to believe it will make the legal landscape worse.  Just a bad idea.

Comment #1: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  05/28  at  11:34 AM

They present a logical argument on why the Prop 8 ban on marriage equality is wrong, citing that marriage is a basic human right and states should not be allowed to discriminate.


You can’t disagree with the merit of these arguments, really.

Sure you can. This argument is not airtight for one key reason:

The idea that marriage is a basic human right has to be 1) accepted and 2) not caveated by “between a man & woman”.

As long as people get to pull a lever IN PRIVATE and vote on marriage equality, the problem will still remain the same: Getting people to fully accept that the homosexual lifestyle is “ok”, “valid” , “acceptable”, “not against (insert diety here)‘s will”, etc.

Comment #2: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  05/28  at  11:41 AM

the homosexual lifestyle

blah blah blah

Comment #3: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  05/28  at  11:42 AM

News on who’s behind the funding:

Standing with [Boies and Olson] in a Biltmore Hotel ballroom were the plaintiffs in the case, two same sex couples who would like to be married—- Kris Perry and Sandy Stier and Paul Katami and Jeff Zarrillo—- as well as the person who spearheaded the effort, Chad Griffin. Olson even credited Griffin for contacting him about the case, which is being done through the auspices of a new organization called the American Foundation for Equal Rights.

To anyone who straddles the world of entertainment and politics, Griffin is well-known. A former staffer in the Clinton White House’s communications team (he, too, hails from Hope, Arkansas), he moved west after Clinton left office and established a business among the cottage industry of political consultants for prominent names. Griffin’s client list includes Steve Bing, Rob Reiner, and Janet and Jerry Zucker, for which he has worked on a host of issues including environmental causes, children’s education and stem cell research. But on Prop 8, and on the issue of same-sex marriage in particular, he seems to have taken a much more prominent role and avoided the potential pitfall of anyone who makes the jump from D.C. to Hollywood: You’ll be pigeonholed solely as a fund-raiser.

Last year, Griffin did raise money for the Prop 8 campaign, drawing on Reiner, Bing, Ron Burkle and Brad Pitt for support. He was particularly vocal after the defeat, and even sought a meeting from Rev. Rick Warren when President Obama chose him to deliver the invocation at the inauguration. Griffin was executive producer of the documentary “Outrage,” Kirby Dick’s expose of closeted politicians who vote against gay rights.

For even one couple to live through even one more day in state-sanctioned second-class citizenship is too long,” Griffin said at the press conference.

That Griffin’s new organization was able to pull off the pairing of Boies and Olson was itself a novelty that surely draw much more attention to the case, even if they had pursued it on their own. It proved surprising enough that Olson was even forced to defend his motives for pursuing the case even with conservative credentials.

Comment #4: Pam Spaulding  on  05/28  at  11:45 AM

No argument with your analysis or your opinion - right answer, wrong time.

The only thing I would add, unfortunately without citation, is the apparent change in the polls when the specific question gets changed to something about marriage equality “if the law includes assurances that no church or religious organization will be required to solemnize the marriage” or similar language.

The big drop in support is, I think, largely due to successful efforts by the right in convincing people that marriage equality will be forced into their churches, which is ludicrous, but also fairly easy to ensure against.

I’d hope that the next phase of pro-equality efforts in whatever form emphasize that.

Comment #5: Lymis  on  05/28  at  11:52 AM

So basically, a fundraiser and PR flack is financing this.  Flair for the dramatic but not strategically thought out. Sounds about right.

Comment #6: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  05/28  at  11:54 AM

As for your Q’s of the day - I think that the correct answer is a gradual seesawing between state and federal efforts rather than one or the other to the exclusion of the other.

Continued state marriage equality and civil union progress, paired with removing the no federal benefits clauses of the federal DOMA, then more state efforts, including efforts at getting mutual recognition even where the marriage cannot be contracted, then federal Civil Unions, then eventually the federal Supreme Court decision.

The timing of this strikes me as wrong. But depending on exactly what they ask for, it could actually go well. I would much prefer to see more state court precedent declaring sexual orientation a suspect class for equal protection analysis before it gets to the Supreme Court.

On the other hand, having a state that declares sexual orientation a suspect class while at the same time making a distinction between “marriage” and “the right to choose how to make families that get recognized by the State” could give the Federal Supreme Court the out it needs to declare us equal citizens while not explicitly requiring the word marriage, and that might not be a bad thing in the short run. Once we are a suspect class for analysis, things will go far smoother.

I think the separate but equal thing sucks. However, even as things stand right now, married women are “wives” while married men are “husbands” and they are equal under the law. Being a third thing that gets lumped in with “spouse” for purposes of benefits and obligations, as long as they really are completely equal, is less bad than having nothing at all.

Comment #7: Lymis  on  05/28  at  12:01 PM

The current, often reactionary, members of the SCOTUS cannot be trusted when it comes to protecting anyone’s civil rights, let alone the civil rights of an “outsider” group like the LGBT community.

It is really interesting, and encouraging, that even an asshole like Olson can see the writing on the wall.  But as long as other assholes, like Scalia, Roberts, Alito, Thomas are dominating SCOTUS, if every ‘t’ is not crossed, and every ‘i’ not dotted before they get the case, it could be disastrous.  (Even then it could still be disastrous.)

In the end this is just more evidence of what we got for 40-years of Republican dominance of American politics — a warm pile of squat.  If this dominance had started a little earlier (Nixon wins in ‘60, for example), Jim Crow might still be alive and well to this very day…

Comment #8: MikeEss  on  05/28  at  12:03 PM

Ohhhh….pishtosh

There is no such thing as “our one and only shot.”  It often takes approaching a federal question from several angles before it’s solved.  One of the greatest assurances of a hearing before the high court is to have “curcuit wars.” 

Besides, this is the decision of the plantiffs, not the LGBT community as a whole.  You don’t get to decide for them.  They’ve got some pretty high powered legal minds here and they think it’s in their best interests, so support them.

This avenue can be pursued simultaneously with a ballot initiative, one doesn’t obivate the other.  I’m not a constitutional lawyer but in my opinion they stand a very good case for at least getting their injuction while the rest of it all plays out.  Further, the Federal system takes a long time, the sooner you start the better.  May it please god the question will be settled before it gets to the Supreme Court but I seriously doubt it.

Comment #9: Magis  on  05/28  at  12:22 PM

While I agree that it’s probably too soon to sell the idea of same-sex marriage to the current supreme court, it’s not just the Obama administration that needs some pressure.

Based on what happened with Prop. 8, I’m not at all surprised by the lack of criticism of the Obama administration by LGBT organizations, nor do I think there would have been any more criticism of a continued Bush or new McCain administration.  The LGBT organizations seem to have no idea how to tackle this issue in the broader community.  The way “our” advocates handled Prop. 8—weak ads pushing the idea that “we’re okay people, really”, always as responses to the fundies’ outrageous lies—makes the idea of putting some real pressure on *them* to actually do something effective very attractive.

Prop. 8 passed for lots of reasons, but the major one was a complete failure to counter the various lies put forward by its proponents (e.g., their children being forced to learn that same-sex relationships are okay; their churches forced to marry same-sex couples; they and their religious leaders being prosecuted for “hate crimes”).  There are some hard-core religious people who aren’t going to be convinced of the validity of same-sex relationships no matter what, but all the lies their leaders tell them fit right into their preconceptions, and the only way we stand a chance is to address those lies head on, not just try to appeal to them on emotional grounds.

Comment #10: Claire  on  05/28  at  12:36 PM

I’m uncertain about the timing here, but I’ll tell you as an attorney who had done appellate practice for a long while, Boies and Olson are the very best out there.  If you listen to the oral argument of each from Bush v. Gore, you’ll hear a textbook demonstration of what presentation of a case before the court should be.

Comment #11: Heaventree  on  05/28  at  12:37 PM

There is no such thing as “our one and only shot.”

Prop H8 anyone?

It passed.  It’s not going to last.  It’s invigorated LGBTQI groups and shown that even the younger generations of the fundy squad don’t care.

If SCOTUS hears it and decides that only men and women can marry, will that stop homosexuals from loving each other, forming families together, or demanding their rights to do so?  Of course not.  If SCOTUS overturns Roe v. Wade, will women give up their bodily autonomy without another word?  Of course not.

People are assholes and love to hate each other.  Freedoms are not free.  It’s a fight, but I still think we can continue to move toward a more civilized society.

Comment #12: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  05/28  at  12:37 PM

If SCOTUS hears it and decides that only men and women can marry, will that stop homosexuals from loving each other, forming families together, or demanding their rights to do so?  Of course not.  If SCOTUS overturns Roe v. Wade, will women give up their bodily autonomy without another word?  Of course not.

Oy.

Comment #13: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  05/28  at  12:45 PM

As long as people get to pull a lever IN PRIVATE and vote on   <strike>marriage equality</strike> interracial marriage, the problem will still remain the same: Getting people to fully accept that <strike>the homosexual lifestyle</strike> miscegenation is “ok”, “valid” , “acceptable”, “not against (insert diety here)’s will”, etc.

Mother Avenger wasn’t allowed to get married in Reno, NV, in 1956 because she had Chinese ancestry and Professor Avenger was a white guy, but in 1959, things changed:

Marriage

(Harry)Bridges met Noriko Sawada during a fund-raiser for Mine, Mill, and Smelter workers and the two became a couple thereafter. In 1958, the couple decided to marry. Although they could have married in California, they decided to travel to Reno, Nevada for their marriage license. However, Nevada had a law banning marriage between any white person and “any person of the Ethiopian or black race, Malay or brown race, Mongolian or yellow race, or American Indian, or red race.”[1] At the county courthouse, the clerk refused to give the couple a marriage license on account of Ms. Sawada’s race being “yellow.”[2]

Bridges and Sawada then sought a court order from District Judge Taylor Wines for issuance of the marriage license. Judge Wines granted the order, in direct contradiction to the law, and the couple married December 10, 1958. This order prompted the Nevada legislature to repeal all anti-miscegenation laws in the State on March 17, 1959.

Comment #14: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  05/28  at  12:47 PM

Not difficult at all.

Is Boies’ and Olson’s rejection of the current legal strategy supported by our orgs a tactical error for the marriage equality battle?

In theory, not at all.

In practice, most definitely. It absolutely should go before SCOTUS, and I think there’s plenty of legal groundwork supporting favorable ruling. But with <u>this court</u> it will never happen. They will put their bigotry before the law and it would be a giant setback.

Is pursuing equality on the path our LGBT organizations represent a sound strategy?

It is not at all ideal, in fact (as you point out) it’s quite problematic. Driving across a state line should not affect your civil rights. But, in light of what we’re stuck with on the court, it’s the best we can do in the short term.

And, who knows, maybe in the long term the continual LGBT rights gains in multiple states may empower federal law makers to move forward with marriage rights legislation, without wanting around a court ruling. (Probably this will be around the time pigs fly.)

Comment #15: Ruby  on  05/28  at  12:48 PM

And when, pray do tell, do you timorous ones think the Supreme Court is going to change?  Ten years?  Fifteen years?  All we can do is hold the line until either Scalia or Thomas retires or perhaps we get a reliable replacement for Kennedy.  It is not impossible, even with this Court, to imagine getting a 5-4 split on our side.

Faint hearts never won…well…anything.

The momentum is there with several stays adopting equality.  Strike while the iron is hot!

Comment #16: Magis  on  05/28  at  12:56 PM

The momentum is there with several stays adopting equality.  Strike while the iron is hot!

Mementum?  Five states.  Twenty-nine anti-marriage amendments.  Hardly a momentum that makes for an overwhelming trend or tendency among the states.

It’s been five years since Goodridge.

Loving came 20 years after Perez.

The legal iron is not hot. It may be up to lukewarm soon, though.  Bad precedent could make it even harder to fight in states that don’t have amendments, and will definitely make it harder to fight those amendments.

Comment #17: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  05/28  at  01:02 PM

The idea that marriage is a basic human right has to be 1) accepted and 2) not caveated by “between a man & woman”.

Boies and Olson are planning to make a legal argument in court, so you’re incorrect: Loving enshrines 1) in law, and 2) there is no language in the U.S. Constitution that specifically excludes homosexuals from enjoying the rights and privileges conferred upon all law-abiding citizens.

That’s not to say that Scalia, Alito, Kennedy, Thomas and Roberts won’t try to obstruct those basic facts, as is their wont. Which is why I’d agree that, as aggravating as it is, it’s better to wait until after Nov 2010 to establish facts on the ground in California and other states before showboating in the SCOTUS. I don’t know how long it takes to get a case onto the Supreme Court docket—perhaps Boies and Olson are expecting that their case won’t be heard until early 2011 if they start things rolling now.

In any case, we shouldn’t conflate lawsuits with the ballot initiatives—two fronts in the same struggle against the same bigoted enemy. And regarding the latter front:

As long as people get to pull a lever IN PRIVATE and vote on marriage equality, the problem will still remain the same: Getting people to fully accept that the homosexual lifestyle is “ok”, “valid” , “acceptable”, “not against (insert diety here)’s will”, etc.

I agree that the problem exists, but not that it’s as intractable as you like to imply (see Dark Avenger’s post above). Every new election cycle brings in a bunch of 18- and 19-year-old voters, most of whom really don’t see a grave threat in allowing homosexuals to get married.

Oh, and if you want to distance yourself from the Know-Nothings who earnestly believe there’s such a thing as a “homosexual lifestyle,” you might want to use scare quotes so it’s clear that you don’t believe in such nonsense yourself.

Comment #18: Gracchus.  on  05/28  at  01:04 PM

Magis—

I absolutely agree. Thank you for stating this so well.  I am a constitutional lawyer and you’re right, Circuit splits are the best way for cases to get to the Supreme Court.  And, given the glacial pace of litigation, I suggest there’s plenty to do before this question ever even gets close to the Supreme Court.

Also, in terms of the LGBT orgs’ “strategy”, I think we’ve got legitimate reason to think they’re all wet.  ENDA, for the first time ever, passed the House.  Instead of working to get it through the Senate, the LGBT orgs tabled it.  It’s kaput.  Employment non-discrimination for gays and lesbians is off the table, while the LGBT orgs have spent the last 2 decades pursuing a quixotic marriage battle and losing ballot initiative after ballot initiative after ballot initiative, including a constitutional amendment in my own State which not only banned gay marriages but rolled back partner benefits, too.  Yay!  Great strategy LGBT orgs!  Awesome job!!

Don’t kid yourselves:  this isn’t about strategy.  It’s about controlling the money.  The longer this marriage fight goes on, the more money those orgs are going to get.  And the more of the playing field those orgs control, the more of the money they’re going to hoover up.  Independent players screw with their fundraising.  That’s all it is.  Which is why this:

“Also, we don’t see any of the LGBT orgs criticizing the non-answers and evasive maneuvers coming out in the name of our “fierce advocate” at these pressers—do you think this silence would have occurred under Bush?”

is the case.  There’s more emphasis on being political insiders, and potentially benefitting from the Obama fundraising machine, than there is on political change.  The LGBT orgs want a seat at the trough, not the table.

Comment #19: Elphie  on  05/28  at  01:07 PM

Dark Avenger,

1) Have you not learned that comparing homosexuality to race doesn’t work with certain people?

2) What you posted proved my point: The issue was resolved - not by “The People” voting, but by a judge who did what he thought was right. Leave thing up to The People & sometimes you get mob rule.

Comment #20: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  05/28  at  01:10 PM

And, the Court may have led in Brown v. Board, in that it moved faster than some parts of th e country were ready for, but it did not come out of the blue. It followed several decades of legal work by the NAACP Legal Defense and Education Fund (particularly working with the Howard University Law School).  They had previously worked to legally desegregate higher education and over the course of about 30 years developed a legal framework that chipped away at the “separate but equal” doctrine to the point that Brown could actually strike the system down.

No such legal framework exists with regard to LGBT families in federal jursiprudence. Similarly, in federal policy, there is no solid groundwork establishing legal recognition of such families. Nor is there enough of a basis to support suspect classification for sexual orientation at the federal level.  In short, there is quite simply not sufficient legal and policy support for federal challenges.  It’s just not there.

Comment #21: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  05/28  at  01:10 PM

IMHO this lawsuit is too early. I think winning a few more states like New York and California (1/8 of the country’s population) first is necessary to before some type of favorable national policy, either by the courts or congress. While I don’t believe that a majority should dictate civil rights to minority groups, winning a majority vote in CA would give a whole lot of momentum/credibility to the Gay Marriage movement. This is possible in the very near future.

Comment #22: drydock  on  05/28  at  01:12 PM

Jeff:

Every state that’s going to pass an anti-marriage amendment has.  Last year there was one marriage state state, now there are five and maybe six pretty soon.  One of them is Iowa for god’s sake.  I repeat, when do you expect the High Court to fundementally change?

Since the majority of states have, as you pointed out, voted against gay marriage, you can hardly expect the majority of elected officials to stand up for you.  All you have is the courts, at this point.  What bad precedent can there be?  Either the Court will just kick it back to the states–in which cases you’ve lost nothing–or, they will affirm the federal right.

Comment #23: Magis  on  05/28  at  01:14 PM

What bad precedent can there be?  Either the Court will just kick it back to the states–in which cases you’ve lost nothing–or, they will affirm the federal right.

*jawdrop*

Comment #24: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  05/28  at  01:17 PM

“[T]he fact is that the Civil Rights Movement was the most strategic, careful and patient litigation effort that this country had ever seen, waiting decades to bring the school desegregation and anti-miscegenation cases until they knew that they had laid a sufficient groundwork to achieve a victory before the Supreme Court.”

Yes, except that the LGBT strategy is NOT that.  Witness the opposition to passing ENDA because it did not include the badly written, overinclusive, and impermissibly vague “trans” protections that, in fact, didn’t protect trans folks at all and would, potentially, have delivered a serious blow to women’s and men’s efforts to seek redress for sex stereotype discrimination under Title VII. 

The LGBT orgs are captive to special interests, big money, and the poor strategies that captivity produces.  So, no, we shouldn’t just sit around and wait for them to do it when, in fact, they shot themselves in the foot on ENDA which would have moved gay/lesbian civil rights forward, even if incompletely so.  Laying that groundwork was opposed by LGBT organizations for no good strategy or litigation or pol or poll reason.  So the LGBT orgs are not the NAACP of the 1900s through the 1960s.  They are manifestly incompetent and manifestly not following a disciplined or patient strategy.  The illusion of patience and strategy is created by the setbacks dealt to the gay rights movement by the LGBT orgs bungling.

Moreover, the Civil Rights movement didn’t “wait”  - it built litigation careful step by careful step.  The first litigation it participated in returned Supreme Court decisions in 1915 and 1917.  I don’t see anything even resembling that coming from the LGBT orgs after they jettisoned everything else in favor of this marriage fight.  All the other gains have been eclipsed by these losses.  It’s a damn travesty.

Comment #25: Elphie  on  05/28  at  01:22 PM

One of them is Iowa for god’s sake

brought to you by Lambda Legal, based on an analysis of which state legal systems might be most amenable to challenge. (and a lovely bit of chauvinism)

Comment #26: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  05/28  at  01:23 PM

*jawdrop*

So, enlighten me already.  Spin for me a scenario that ends up a net loss.

Comment #27: Magis  on  05/28  at  01:28 PM

1) Have you not learned that comparing homosexuality to race doesn’t work with certain people?

Why does this matter? Who cares? Those “certain people” will never be convinced anyway ...

Is your argument, “Some people won’t like you saying that, so you shouldn’t say it”?

Comment #28: rx7ward  on  05/28  at  01:28 PM

So, enlighten me already.  Spin for me a scenario that ends up a net loss.

You really don’t think a decision reaffirming marriage as heterosexual would have any impact on lawsuits based on state constitutions?  You don’t think a strong affirmation of that principle would be detrimental?

That’s exactly what we’re looking at at this moment.

Comment #29: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  05/28  at  01:32 PM

Uh, at best, a federal decision against gay marriage would make future state challenges more difficult and empower anti-gay marriage advocates to push back against Gay Rights gains. And establish a legal president that could make future federal challenges more difficult.

At worst, I’d think that SCOTUS declaring that there is no constitutional right to gay marriage could actually give bigots the idea that they have a legal avenue to challenge existing gay marriage laws. Whether or not this is true I don’t know, but I certainly wouldn’t put it past them.

Comment #30: Ruby  on  05/28  at  01:44 PM

You really don’t think a decision reaffirming marriage as heterosexual would have any impact on lawsuits based on state constitutions?  You don’t think a strong affirmation of that principle would be detrimental?

No, in a word.  Are you saying they are going to Federalize the question?  I mean, either it is or it isn’t.  Do you really think they are going to do that?  They can’t “reaffirm” and keep it a state by state issue.

Or, they can construe narrowly, and just say the CSC was correct and not touch the issue in which case you haven’t lost anything.

Plus, god knows what novel line of reasoning District Cal will come up with.  I see no danger in this, honestly, I don’t.

Comment #31: Magis  on  05/28  at  01:49 PM

Based on what happened with Prop. 8, I’m not at all surprised by the lack of criticism of the Obama administration by LGBT organizations, nor do I think there would have been any more criticism of a continued Bush or new McCain administration.  The LGBT organizations seem to have no idea how to tackle this issue in the broader community.  The way “our” advocates handled Prop. 8—weak ads pushing the idea that “we’re okay people, really”, always as responses to the fundies’ outrageous lies—makes the idea of putting some real pressure on *them* to actually do something effective very attractive.

and…

Also, in terms of the LGBT orgs’ “strategy”, I think we’ve got legitimate reason to think they’re all wet.  ENDA, for the first time ever, passed the House.  Instead of working to get it through the Senate, the LGBT orgs tabled it.  It’s kaput.  Employment non-discrimination for gays and lesbians is off the table, while the LGBT orgs have spent the last 2 decades pursuing a quixotic marriage battle and losing ballot initiative after ballot initiative after ballot initiative, including a constitutional amendment in my own State which not only banned gay marriages but rolled back partner benefits, too.  Yay!  Great strategy LGBT orgs!  Awesome job!!

Damn straight on both of these. Our LGBT orgs didn’t even want to show gay families with kids in the commercials when battling Prop 8. Our advocacy groups are dropping the accountability ball.

Comment #32: Pam Spaulding  on  05/28  at  01:51 PM

I have to say that Boies is not someone I’d trust after his involvement in the SCO vs. IBM fiasco. His firm took the case of a company that turned out to be making spurious accusations based on code that they hadn’t written and didn’t have under copyright. Six years later, SCO as a company is on life support from massive, self-inflicted, Boies-enabled injuries.

If Olson is pulling a David Brock, good for him (though I’d love to see what his late wife’s BFF Ann Coulter has to say about it). But I don’t think Boies is to be trusted.

Comment #33: BrianX  on  05/28  at  01:54 PM

Why does this matter? Who cares? Those “certain people” will never be convinced anyway …

It matters to folks who are trying to convince people to change their minds.

In some cases, repeatedly doing this seems to harden people’s hearts - so to speak.

Comment #34: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  05/28  at  02:07 PM

Damn straight on both of these. Our LGBT orgs didn’t even want to show gay families with kids in the commercials when battling Prop 8. Our advocacy groups are dropping the accountability ball.

Well, of course, you LGBT’s would want to be seen being “uppity” would you?

I just love it when committees or groups sit in rooms and nod wisely at eachother and decide being chickenshit and sitting on their asses is the ‘wise’ thing to do.  I’m not saying not to be classy or respectful but being wimps is never a good strategy. 

I don’t quite get this “our advocacy groups.”  Who the hell elected them or appointed them?  Who the hell said they get to speak for the two couples in this suit?  And, as Elphie said, who are they to preach about strategy since they’ve been out-generaled at every turn.

Comment #35: Magis  on  05/28  at  02:08 PM

Getting people to fully accept that the homosexual lifestyle is “ok”, “valid” , “acceptable”, “not against (insert diety here)’s will”, etc.

You’re wrong.  People don’t have to accept that something is “ok” to want to give people the right to do it.  I think it’s wrong for a couple to have 20 kids when apparently neither parent has a job, but I certainly don’t support a law banning them from doing it.  I think it’s wrong to smoke marijuana and hire prostitutes, but I still think both of those things should be legal.  I think it’s wrong to cheat on your spouse, but it’s not illegal to do so (although it is certainly grounds for divorce).  I think it’s wrong to use “pussy” or “dick” as an insult, but I certainly don’t favor banning those words.  I think it’s foolish and irresponsible to pay $1,000 for a purse, but I still think people should have the right to.  Most people of any religion think it’s wrong to be of a different religion or none at all, but very few people try to make it illegal to practice a different religion than their own.  In fact, allowing interracial marriage never required that people accept it as being “ok”.  There are still people who think it’s wrong, but they don’t try to use the government to prevent others from doing it.  Laws are meant to protect people, not to force personal moral views onto them, and I think most people realize this.

Comment #36: bananacat  on  05/28  at  02:26 PM

They’re going to get another Bowers v. Hardwick if they push this now.  I don’t think Kennedy can be convinced to do the right thing.

Comment #37: keshmeshi  on  05/28  at  02:29 PM

To be honest, I think a 5-4 split on marriage equality could go our way right now.  Yes, Kennedy specifically said in Lawrence that the decision didn’t have anything to do with gay marriage.  But the decision as a whole is practically an ode to freedom to love.  And considering he said that Bowers was bad law from the day it was decided, I don’t think he’d want to be remembered as the author of “Bowers II: Reversed in Ten Years”.

Eh.  What the SCOTUS could do is overrule Baker v. Nelson very narrowly - decide that there *is* a federal question - and then remand it to lower courts for debate on the merits.  Will it?  I’m not sure.

Comment #38: Maureen  on  05/28  at  02:40 PM

But the Bowers case was overturned, finally, by Lawrence v. Texas.  Not only that, but in the aftermath many states didn’t want to be embarrassed by their sodomy laws and struck them before Lawrence ever happened.  My point is, that without a Bowers you never would have had a Lawrence.  Get started now!

Comment #39: Magis  on  05/28  at  02:41 PM

Urhura, I believe that sexual orientation is almost as immutable a characteristic as race.

And, yes, I understand that some people let their feelings dictate their attitude towards homosexuals and are thus impervious to logic and sound reasoning, substituting an attitude of disgust for what should be honest dialog.  wink

Comment #40: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  05/28  at  03:24 PM

Urhura, I believe that sexual orientation is almost as immutable a characteristic as race.

Race is a social construct. Is sexual orientation a social construct too?

And, yes, I understand that some people let their feelings dictate their attitude towards homosexuals and are thus impervious to logic and sound reasoning, substituting an attitude of disgust for what should be honest dialog.

Good, then we are—-><—-

Comment #41: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  05/28  at  04:00 PM

Uhura, all gender roles and rules are socially constructed.  It’s social construct that determines whether the physical aspect of having a certain skin color is good or bad, and it’s a social construct that determines whether it’s good or bad to love a person with certain genitals.  Also, people don’t fit into neat little sexual orientation groups (which is why LGBT keeps adding more letters, to be more inclusive), just like people don’t fit into neat little racial groups.

Comment #42: bananacat  on  05/28  at  04:13 PM

It matters to folks who are trying to convince people to change their minds.

The fight for same-sex marriage is more a GOTV effort than a “change people’s minds” effort. Let’s be honest, those who voted “yes” on Prop 8 were either bigots, or lied to by bigots (often priests of one sort or another). The first group of voters is a lost cause, but the second group might at least be shown that they are being lied to (not necessarily in the service of changing their minds, but convincing them that they’re being lied to).

In the case of bigoted African-American preachers, for example, it is helpful to point out that those who both regularly praise the civil rights efforts of Dr. King but also regularly demand that the state restrict the marital rights and privileges of a certain class of law-abiding citizen are projecting a severe case of their own political cognitive dissonance onto their congregations.

To be sure, q hypothetical bigoted preacher won’t like that, nor will those congregants who follow his advice blindly, but they’re lost causes to begin with. For others in the congregation, though, it plants a seed of doubt, and sometimes that doubt is expressed openly. Pharaoh may harden his heart, but it doesn’t mean that all his subjects will happily accept the rather embarrassing plagues that stubborness unfairly brings down upon all of their heads.

Comment #43: Gracchus.  on  05/28  at  04:23 PM

“Also, people don’t fit into neat little sexual orientation groups (which is why LGBT keeps adding more letters, to be more inclusive), just like people don’t fit into neat little racial groups.”

How is L(esbian), G(ay), B(isexual), and T(rans) not about fitting into neat little groups?  Being inclusive of many different little groups doesn’t mean that people don’t fit into them.  Maybe people don’t.  But the balkanization of the gay rights movement by constantly adding letters to signify that somebody fits into a previously allegedly unrepresented group can hardly be an acknowledgement that people don’t fit neatly into groups.

Comment #44: Elphie  on  05/28  at  04:35 PM

Uhura, all gender roles and rules are socially constructed.

Really? Thanks for making me aware of that. I mean - I really had NO idea.

It’s social construct that determines whether the physical aspect of having a certain skin color is good or bad,

Now…That sounds awfully familiar…

and it’s a social construct that determines whether it’s good or bad to love a person with certain genitals.

Um…yeah - no shit; however, being homosexual (attracted to the opposite sex) is NOT a social construct to hear gay rights advocates tell it. It’s a biological reality.

Also, people don’t fit into neat little sexual orientation groups (which is why LGBT keeps adding more letters, to be more inclusive),

Sure they do…barring / exclusing any pathologies: Heterosexual, Homosexual, Bisexual…seems pretty basic to me.

just like people don’t fit into neat little racial groups.

Right - because race is a social construct. But…um…I said that already.

Comment #45: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  05/28  at  04:38 PM

In the case of bigoted African-American preachers, for example, it is helpful to point out that those who both regularly praise the civil rights efforts of Dr. King but also regularly demand that the state restrict the marital rights and privileges of a certain class of law-abiding citizen are projecting a severe case of their own political cognitive dissonance onto their congregations.

That’s your opinion, but I assure you - THEY do not see it that way…not one little bit.

They use the Bible to justify why gays are “wrong” and “eeevil”.

It’s very simple & convenient really. No cognitive dissonance at all. wink

Observation: If the “reasoning” and “rationality” I see here is a good representation of the brain power behind the marriage equality movement, there’s some growth needed.

Masturbatory conversations - ie discussons where you say a b c d e and your only audience are people who think the same a b c d e - are dulling your senses. You have to understand how your enemy thinks if you are going to win. Try that instead of wasting your time talking about how your enemy should think.

Comment #46: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  05/28  at  04:44 PM

That’s your opinion, but I assure you - THEY do not see it that way…not one little bit.

And they’re wrong about it, at least as far as the role of the state is concerned. Which is the point of making it clear that there’s an inherent logical contradiction between:

A) The Civil Rights Movement was wonderful, in that it ensured that law-abiding African-American citizens were no longer denied the legal rights and privileges enjoyed by all American citizens.

and

B) DOMA is wonderful, in that it ensures that law-abiding GLBT citizens will continue to be denied the legal rights and privileges enjoyed by all American citizens.

When you bring logic into the debate, it becomes less an issue of opinion than one of fact.

That’s not to say that our bigoted preacher is going to try to to push item A) into the realm of politics, and item B) into the realm of the Bible to circumvent logic. But by doing so he opens himself to accusations of trying to mix church and state.

You have to understand how your enemy thinks if you are going to win. Try that instead of wasting your time talking about how your enemy should think.

Ah, but as noted above I’m not targetting the enemy with that logic—they’re lost causes. There’s no point in targetting bigoted African-American preachers, the “church ladies” and deacons who hang on their every word, or those who pretend that—except for a few flamboyant exiles—there are no GLBT folks in the mainstream Black community. It’s pointless because they’re living in fantasies of (respectively) superstitious dogma, authority worship, and denial.

But that’s not the sum total of the African-American mainstream voter base, which is why the people who blame Blacks in California for the passage of Prop 8 are wrong. Many African-Americans are content to say “your fight isn’t our fight” and remain apathetic, not because they’re fantasists but because no-one else in their community is speaking out on the matter. Pam mentioned Rep. Alma Adams the other day—who votes for pro-GLBT positions, while at the same time claiming that those positions are not those of the NC Black Caucus she chairs. Another contradiction, likely a result of fear of alienating the preachers mentioned above (who, despite their bigotry, are amazing organisers and mobilisers).

Again, this isn’t about changing minds, this is about offering strong, alternative voices within the community that appeal to reason, logic, and the community’s healthy self-interest. That’s why Pam is so insistent that liberal and progressive African-American preachers, politicians, and celebrities—gay or not—take a stand on this issue.

Comment #47: Gracchus.  on  05/28  at  05:18 PM

Um…yeah - no shit; however, being homosexual (attracted to the opposite sex) is NOT a social construct to hear gay rights advocates tell it. It’s a biological reality.

You are missing the point (big surprise there!)  Being attracted to a person with certain genitals is as biological as having a certain skin color.  It’s the associations and moral rules applied to those biological traits that are the social constructs.  I really shouldn’t have even bothered trying though.  You’ll never listen.

Comment #48: bananacat  on  05/28  at  05:33 PM

How is L(esbian), G(ay), B(isexual), and T(rans) not about fitting into neat little groups?

People try to fit others into these groups, but people just don’t always fit neatly into any of them.  I’m not saying that we shouldn’t use these groups, but we’ll never have enough groups to fit everyone into, unless each person has their own group.  I hope that I didn’t come across as saying that these categories are useless because that’s not what I meant at all.

Comment #49: bananacat  on  05/28  at  05:33 PM

being homosexual (attracted to the opposite sex) is NOT a social construct to hear gay rights advocates tell it. It’s a biological reality

Actually, they usually say that it’s both.

Comment #50: Gracchus.  on  05/28  at  05:52 PM

On second thought, Uhura, I would tell “certain people” a modified version of the following:

“Detach yourself, Archie, personal resentment of a general statement is a barbarous remnant of a fetish-superstition.”

Fer-de-Lance

Rex Stout.

Comment #51: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  05/28  at  06:02 PM

The definitions of gay (or lesbian), straight, or bisexual are certainly social constructs.  If a man has one sexual encounter with another man, then he’s often consider gay.  If that same man has one or one million sexual encounters with a woman, that doesn’t automatically make him straight.  Many people even deny the existence of bisexuality.  One gay man I know thinks that bi guys are actually gay and just trying to appear more normal.  There’s also a huge double standard when it comes to women and men.  Some people think it’s normal and even expected that every single woman is attracted to other women to some extent, and those women are still considered straight as long as they’re just doing it because guys want to watch and don’t actually make a relationship out of it.  I’m sure this idea comes from watching too much porn, which is certainly a social construct.  Sexuality is biological, but the definitions that try to categorize it are socially constructed.

Comment #52: bananacat  on  05/28  at  06:59 PM

“If a man has one sexual encounter with another man, then he’s often consider gay.”

How’s that working for Larry Craig?  My experience is that lots of straight men seek out and have casual sexual encounters with men in rest stops, bathrooms, public parks, but that they don’t think themselves gay or bisexual.  So, they’re not.  They’re straight guys who sometimes do sex with men.  If that’s their identity who are we to challenge it?

“Sexuality is biological.”

Which part is biological?

Comment #53: Elphie  on  05/28  at  07:14 PM

My point is that people don’t choose who they are attracted to.  But it is a social construct to decide which people fall into which category.  Personally, I think people are whatever they identify themselves as, but not everyone thinks that way.  It seems like definitions for gay, straight, or bi should be pretty clear-cut, but it’s actually very complex.

Comment #54: bananacat  on  05/28  at  07:33 PM

If that’s their identity who are we to challenge it?

Sayin’ I’m from Venus don’t make it so.  Sexuality is biological.  We don’t choose it like ceral.  When you have your awakening you’re either attracted to A or B or A and B.  Them’s your choices.  The fact that we sometimes step out of our balliwick experimentaly doesn’t disprove that.  We’re very curious and plasic creatures.  But in most people there is a recognition of a preference for a particular ‘target.’

Around that fact are social constructs; e.g., that gays are (or generally are)....

Comment #55: Magis  on  05/28  at  07:40 PM

Okay, let’s wade out of the hole of “is sexual orientation socially constructed or not?” into territory with clearer lines for 95% of the population: Sex. 

Approximately 95-99% of the adult population of the United States are either:
1. Cisgendered phenotypical XY males or
2. Cisgendered phenotypical XX females

Under the laws of 45 states and the federal government, a member of Group 1 can’t marry another member of Group 1, and a member of Group 2 can’t marry another member of Group 2.  This is a pure case of sex discrimination analogous to the race discrimination in Loving, wherein black people could only marry other black people and white people could only marry other white people. 

It’s not about straight or gay or bisexual (in which case unpartnered bisexual men and women have our marriage rights in the same box holding Schrodinger’s Cat); it’s about men and women.  45 states discriminate against men by not allowing them to marry other men, and those same 45 states discriminate against women by not allowing them to marry other women.  The fact that 90% of those affected by that discrimination wouldn’t want to marry a member of the same sex is irrelevant to Constitutional analysis; in 1967 90% of Virginians, both black and white, weren’t trying to marry someone of another race.  But one couple had their freedom limited by that law, and for the Supreme Court, one couple was too many.

It’s also worth noting that almost all of the judicial decisions about marriage equality came out in favor of same-sex marriage or at least civil unions.  The fact that many of them were overturned by popular amendment is indicative of the fact that most people haven’t undergone systematic legal training or even training in critical thought.  (That, of course, would be dangerous for society.)

A final thought: All of the justices have law clerks barely out of law school.  I’m just saying.

Comment #56: Maureen  on  05/28  at  08:05 PM

45 states discriminate against men by not allowing them to marry other men, and those same 45 states discriminate against women by not allowing them to marry other women.

Thank you for making this excellent point.  I actually once dated a guy who was straight, but said he wouldn’t rule out the possibility of dating a person just because that person happened to be a man.  He never actually became attracted to another man because very few men have the physical qualities that he finds attractive in women, but he just didn’t want to rule someone out because of their genitals.  This shows that even when someone chooses to not be “straight”, he’s still functionally straight.  He didn’t need laws, social rules, or even his own rules to force him to like only women; that’s just what he was naturally attracted to.

Comment #57: bananacat  on  05/28  at  08:12 PM

Maureen, while I don’t dispute your point, I have to agree with the way the California court put it in the Marriage Cases ruling (the one Prop 8 was intended to overrule).

The gender discrimination claim is strained, not because it isn’t so, but because it isn’t what is going on. You aren’t discriminating against someone except in the most theoretical technical sense if you bar her from doing something she has no interest whatsoever in doing.

True that if Adam can marry Eve, but Amy and Lilith cannot purely because of their gender, there is discrimination. But if Amy is 100% straight and never even considered looking at Eve but Lilith not only wants to marry her but Eve reciprocates, it isn’t Amy who is being discriminated against. It is Lilith.

Calling it gender discrimination may be tactically valid if the only Constitutional guarantee is gender equality, but that is distinct from recognizing what is going on. Which is that it is only people who want to marry same-sex partners who are being burdened by the laws preventing it.

So it sure as heck IS about gay or bisexual.

And that is also the direction we really do need to take it. There’s no real point in trying to tell a straight man that current marriage laws prevent HIM from marrying another man. So what? And it goes that much further in reinforcing the idea that gay people are straight people choosing to be perverts.

How often do you hear people claiming that current marriage law already treats everyone equally by limiting everyone equally to opposite sex marriage?

What straight people need to really understand is that they are straight, so they want to marry someone of the opposite sex. We, being gay or bisexual, are different from them because of our sexual orientation, and really, truly, we fall in love with and want to make our families with same-sex partners.

Ain’t nobody opposing marriage equality to put down women (or men) - it’s because we’re gay. Really.

Comment #58: Lymis  on  05/28  at  08:32 PM

I can agree with people not falling neatly into categories. I’m a straight woman.

Except: many years ago, I had sexual thoughts about a female friend. Never acted on them, not even sure if I’d not have found it rather uninteresting if I had. But I can’t say I’m 100% heterosexual when there was one woman in the world I might have dated if I’d not been in another relationship at the time. (And if she’d been interested). I’m more like 99.8% heterosexual.

And as for being a woman? I’m certainly not transsexual, but I don’t really care a great deal about my body plan. People try to explain transsexuality to me by saying, “What if you woke up tomorrow in the body of a man?” My feeling is, I wouldn’t be terribly bothered by it, except that my marriage would need re-evaluation; it might turn into best buds and roommates, rather than lovers as well. I’m not gendered; my sex is my plumbing.

Comment #59: Samantha Vimes  on  05/28  at  08:32 PM

To use a metaphor, if you prevent people from building a mosque, you really truly are discriminating against Muslims. Even though you are preventing Christians from building mosques too, they don’t want to. Saying that you are really discriminating against Christians too pretty much misses the point.

Comment #60: Lymis  on  05/28  at  08:35 PM

My point is that people don’t choose who they are attracted to.

a)  How do you know that? and

b)  Even if that’s true, what makes it biological?

I do agree, sexuality is pretty complex in defiance of the labels people want to put on it.  I just happen to think this includes labels like “biological”.  I’m not much into the “I can’t help it!” school of thought on sexual preference which crops up in so many ways.

Comment #61: Elphie  on  05/28  at  08:57 PM

Sexuality is biological.  We don’t choose it like ceral.  When you have your awakening you’re either attracted to A or B or A and B.  Them’s your choices.  The fact that we sometimes step out of our balliwick experimentaly doesn’t disprove that.

I know lots of lesbians who dated guys, married guys, had sex with guys, had kids with guys, and then became lesbians after years and years of being straight.  And loathe though I am to bring it up, as it’s such a truism:  you leave bisexuals out of it completely.  You also leave out of it people like me who choose to be gay.

Comment #62: Elphie  on  05/28  at  09:01 PM

Eek. Two brilliant lawyers with huge egos, whose careers and self-esteem might do even better if they lose. Seems like the civil-rights equivalent of invading iraq.

Comment #63: paul  on  05/28  at  09:05 PM

True that if Adam can marry Eve, but Amy and Lilith cannot purely because of their gender, there is discrimination. But if Amy is 100% straight and never even considered looking at Eve but Lilith not only wants to marry her but Eve reciprocates, it isn’t Amy who is being discriminated against. It is Lilith.

But it’s discrimination based on sex in the same way that the discrimination against Mr. and Mrs. Loving was based on race even though very few people in Virginia wanted to have an interracial relationship.  Or to put it another way, the ban on openly non-heterosexual people entering the military discriminates against me even though I have no interest in joining the military (and I couldn’t enter it without the ban due to health reasons).  Or how a ban on abortion violates the freedom of a woman who has never been pregnant and wouldn’t abort anyway because of her religious beliefs.  Or how bans on women police officers violated the freedoms of blind women who couldn’t even pass a driving test, let alone a police qualifying exam.  We don’t say it’s discrimination against women with 20/20 vision, we say it’s discrimination against women.  When the state removes a choice from someone based on a semi-suspect classification (which sex is), it doesn’t matter if most of the people affected would have never chosen that choice anyways or were barred from that choice due to a non-suspect classification.

Also: I’m bisexual.  Can I get married to at least one person I’m sexually attracted to?  Yes.  Do I have full freedom to marry?  No.  Shoot, even if I fall in love with a man I’m not going to have full marital freedom even though a) my hypothetical marriage to that man would be legal in all 50 states and be federally recognized and b) I wouldn’t want to marry a woman at that point in time, because I would be in love with a man.  My partial freedom to marry isn’t based on the Kinsey scale; it’s based on sex classifications.

Comment #64: Maureen  on  05/28  at  09:36 PM

To use a metaphor, if you prevent people from building a mosque, you really truly are discriminating against Muslims. Even though you are preventing Christians from building mosques too, they don’t want to. Saying that you are really discriminating against Christians too pretty much misses the point.

Fair enough.  However, under the current judicial framework, discrimination based on sex is reviewed at a much more stringent level than discrimination based on sexual orientation.  Considering that the Supreme Court has already defined marriage as a fundamental right (Loving), a same-sex marriage case should be reviewed on the basis of strict scrutiny, the most stringent level of review.  But still.

Comment #65: Maureen  on  05/28  at  09:43 PM

Ain’t nobody opposing marriage equality to put down women (or men) - it’s because we’re gay. Really.

I could go out and find a bisexual man to marry and have that marriage recognized in every state of the Union.  I could go out and find a bisexual woman to marry and only have that marriage recognized in five states.  The difference, at least to me, doesn’t seem to be in the amount of queerness that the participants of the marriage have but in the sexes of the marriage participants. 

(I suppose you could argue that the marriage between two bisexuals of the same sex is queerer than the marriage between two bisexuals of different sexes.  But contracts - which is what marriages *are* - don’t have legal rights.  The parties to the contracts do.)

Comment #66: Maureen  on  05/28  at  09:48 PM

Catgurl, sweetie - I think you have missed the point.

Furthermore, since your default position seems to =

Uhura will not be able to comprehend what Catgurl is saying

please feel free to ignore me. wink

Comment #67: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  05/29  at  12:05 AM

Let’s review the bidding.

Various forms of sexual desire- NOT a social construct.

Labeling various forms of sexual desire “good” / “bad” - social construct

Physical appearance (skin color, hair texture, etc) - NOT a social construct

Assigning those of a certain physical appearance to a “racial” category - social construct

Labeling certain “racial” categories “good” & others “bad” - social construct

Comment #68: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  05/29  at  12:10 AM

you leave bisexuals out of it completely.  You also leave out of it people like me who choose to be gay.

No, I didn’t.  Read again.  A plus B.  If you didn’t have a biological attraction at all you couldn’t achieve desire.

Comment #69: Magis  on  05/29  at  01:07 AM

A and B.  Missed it.

Comment #70: Elphie  on  05/29  at  01:55 AM

Let’s review the bidding.

Various forms of sexual desire- NOT a social construct.

Labeling various forms of sexual desire “good” / “bad” - social construct

Assigning those who display certain superficial behaviours to a “sexual” category - social construct

Physical appearance (skin color, hair texture, etc) - NOT a social construct

Assigning those of a certain physical appearance to a “racial” category - social construct

Labeling certain “racial” categories “good” & others “bad” - social construct

I added one for balance, and because there are certain societies/cultures that take the Homer Simpson view of homosexuality: “I like my beer cold, my TV loud, and my homosexuals fah-laming.”

That extreme view makes it easier for said society to pretend that that nice youth leader at church, that rough-and-tough football player, that macho action star, or that neighbour with a wife and two kids couldn’t possibly be gay—even though they’re all secretly having sex with men. And when they’re caught in the act, it makes it easier to blame things on “flaming” outsiders with a “gay lifestyle agenda” who are out to destroy the society/culture.

Comment #71: Gracchus.  on  05/29  at  11:57 AM

I find one question coming to me as I read the comments section:  what impact did the changing Court have on Loving v. Virginia (if there was a change).  Many people have pointed out that the Court was “ahead of the public opinion”, but as I read history, public opinion was changing in a way that seems similar to this new question (i.e. certainly not overwhelming support, but a definite trend toward that direction).  That said, I’d love to hear from people with knowledge whether the question of “miscegenation” was something that came up in confirmation hearings, influenced appointments to the court, and so forth.

I ask primarily because, as with abortion and Roe, it seems like this could easily become a very pertinent topic for several Court nominations down the line (“Do you agree with the anti-marriage decision in blah blah blah…”), and it seems that the era of passive acceptance of nominations may be over and dead, thus giving advocacy groups and individuals a very real chance to influence the selection of that fifth vote down the line.

Any thoughts from someone who knows more about this than I do would be welcome.  Perhaps it’s implicit, but I support the concept of challenging in federal courts, though this is heavily influenced by the sheer incompetence of the groups that wasted the money I gave to them and really couldn’t afford to have so badly managed (in CA, and nowhere near the level of means to afford what I gave :(  ).

Comment #72: Signals and Systems  on  05/29  at  01:41 PM

Meant to add:  if someone did address my question, sorry for missing it.  I confess to skimming some of the sniping above. smile

Comment #73: Signals and Systems  on  05/29  at  01:42 PM

Assigning those who display certain superficial behaviours to a “sexual” category - social construct

Definitely.

Comment #74: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  05/29  at  07:09 PM

Maureen,

I don’t disagree that it is discrimination based on gender. I think, though, it is more deeply and accurately discrimination based on sexual orientation, and welcome the fact that courts are beginning to recognize it.

Comment #75: Lymis  on  05/29  at  07:47 PM
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