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Next entry: Who’s uncomfortable with the truth? Previous entry: The Footwear of Tyranny

The danger of the word “politicization”

Once in awhile, I declare war on a word that’s become widespread because it carries a lot of assumptions with it that I think should be challenged instead of reinforced.  (Such as “problematic”, a word I’ve banished from my vocabulary because it’s lazy and allows the person using it to avoid explaining exactly why something is a problem.)  And today, that word is “politicize”, which is used to confuse instead of enlighten 90% of the time nowadays, and definitely ended its tenure as a useful word in the wake of the Arizona massacre. 

It’s too bad, because “politicize” used to be a useful word.  It was the go-to word to describe two very negative behaviors:

1) Making mountains out of molehills.

2) Making things that are not problems out to be problems. 

A good example of #1 is a lot of culture war nonsense, such as pretending that Michelle Obama is going to take away your smores or the American Life League declaring jihad on Krispy Kremes for suggesting that the word “choice” isn’t a taboo word that should never be uttered in any context.  (They probably then went right back to whining about being called “anti-choice”, even though they’re not literally against those six letters standing in a row.)  The latter is a little more tricky, because there are legitimate disagreements about what constitutes a problem, but again, culture war nonsense is a good example.  So, for instance, you have the wingnuts in this thread making their resentment of people who make healthier, happier choices than they did the driving force behind their politics.  They oppose the theory of global warming and urban planning to make more of the country dense and walkable, which are straight up political issues, because they resent the younger generation for their youthful hipness and wish to punish them, even though the young being young is not really a problem in the traditional sense. 

What these two situations have in common is that they presume that politics is about the important, life-and-death issues, and that government exists to govern, which is largely about solving social problems and preventing future ones. Real problems.  “Politicizing” then is trying to attach irrelevant nonsense to politics, and it downgrades the importance of it.

Nowadays, however, the verb “to politicize” is used, 90% of the time, to suggest that politics and government are silly little trifles that shouldn’t be involved when something really serious is on the table.  That’s how the word has been used in the past week, by right wingers trying to deflect criticism of their very serious actions by suggesting that this massacre is too serious to involve politics. But you see it a lot, and sadly not just from the right—-I’ve seen liberals argue things like health care reform and abortion policy shouldn’t be “politicized”, though literally the only way to leave politics out of it would be to take ourselves out of the game and lose completely.  But certainly, the right is eager to use the term in an attempt to bully liberals away from speaking up on important issues at the right times.  Thus, burying a politician is something where you should never be “political”—-though only if they’re liberal, of course—-because remembering a person’s life all of a sudden became the wrong thing to do when mourning that person.  And now, of course, we’re being told not to “politicize” the shooting of a politician.  We’re told that a huge social problem—-in this case, mass shootings that happen on average 20 times a year—-is simply too grave to be handled through politics.  You know, that attempting to stop mass shooting is an insult to the victims of them, because of the politicization.  (By the end of the decade, we will have right wingers take offense at the idea anyone who voted Democrat should be permitted to attend a funeral for a loved one.) 


The implication is that politics is basically a government-funded sport that has no meaning outside of whose team is winning or losing.  And that, just as we cancel sporting events in the wake of major tragedies that make game-playing seem insufficiently somber, we should cancel politics.  This view helps the right, and should never be reinforced on the left, even if we can catch the occasional rhetoric advantage in the short term with it.  That’s because it’s the right that benefits from the idea that politics is a sideshow created for entertainment, and that actual policy that actually does something sullies the nation. 

Look, if there was one message that right wingers have been trying to drill home for decades now, it’s that government cannot ever be considered a legitimate tool with which to solve social problems.  Now, the leadership of the Republican party doesn’t believe this.  They feel government does and should exist to serve the wealthy.  They’re all for courts existing so they can solve their disputes, military to help exploit the resources of other nations, police to protect their property, and central banking that serves the interests of Wall Street against the people. But they know damn well that the issues that tend to capture the public imagination are those that directly affect most of us, and that is where they’d prefer that we imagine government as being nothing more than a taxpayer-funded spectator sport that has no real meaning and should therefore have no real power.

You really see how much this belief that government doesn’t and shouldn’t have power to make laws and policy has caught hold in the debate over gun control.  There were the usual pro-gun folks freaking out all over the thread at my Guardian piece where I basically did nothing more than support extremely mild restrictions on guns that can take dozens of lives within the time it take a TV show to have a commercial break.  And I argued with them a little, but the whole thing gets super frustrating within minutes because it doesn’t take long to get to the point where you’re explaining that the purpose of government is actually to solve social problems. 

For instance, I brought up a series of social problems that I felt would be curtailed if we had even a handful of sensible gun restrictions.  The examples were mass shootings that could be slowed and even stopped by making it harder to get semiautomatic guns, the proliferation of impulse suicides and murders that could be curtailed somewhat with handgun restrictions, and I pointed out a story of an 8-year-old who blew his head off with an Uzi at a gun show as an example of an accident that would have been prevented if we had even halfway reasonable gun laws in this country.  The response was basically to say that yeah, these are problems, but hey, I’m the crazy one for suggesting that a response to problems is, gasp, policy.  So, once I found myself explaining that government exists precisely to react to problems like, say, small children being able to handle barely-legal weaponry at gun shows, I bowed out.  There’s a fundamental problem here, which is that “politicization” language has confused people about what politics are and what they exist to do. 

The results are adequately depressing.  As Digby points out today, a CNN poll found that 66% of people believe there is nothing society or government can do to prevent mass shootings.  I blame the proliferation of the word “politicization”—-at least this specific use of it—-and the assumption bundled up in it, which is that politics aren’t the correct tool to use to solve social problems, and that saying otherwise somehow drains problems of their seriousness.  Without having access to politics as a tool, we literally do have nothing with which to address this problem.  All realistic solutions to prevent mass shootings are political in nature. Just take this case in particular.  Jared Loughner had multiple motivating forces and multiple opportunities that led to the shooting, and it’s likely that even removing one element would have prevented it. Better gun control, better mental health services, a public discourse where paranoid and violent rhetoric is shamed, and more feminism so that men are less likely to grow up thinking women are weak and contemptible: if any of these had been in place, there would probably have not been a massacre.  These are all political solutions, though, and so if we take politics off the table, we really are helpless. Which is right where the right wing wants us to be—-after all, they’re conservatives.  By definition, they pretty much oppose all social change and therefore are eager to find ways to banish the possibility of it roughly forever.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 12:14 PM • (55) Comments

I couldn’t believe the bullshit over there about the 8 year old.  They compared a kid blowing his head off with an Uzi to car accidents.

Jesus Christ!  There’s a difference between belting a kid in a carseat and driving along and handing a kid a loaded UZI.

If someone can’t see the difference between the two situations, and more claims that “freedom” requires that a few 8 year olds blow their heads off…Fuck, how do you talk to those people?

Comment #1: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  01/18  at  12:40 PM

On Real Time last week, some republican choad declared that if he hadn’t had access to the extended magazine, the Tucson shooter would have driven his car into the crowd. And no one bothered to point out that we have much stricter testing, licensing, and regulatory requirements for people to operate vehicles than we do for people to own guns.

Comment #2: Mighty Ponygirl  on  01/18  at  12:56 PM

I use “problematic”, but only to refer to food.

Comment #3: Hobbes  on  01/18  at  01:01 PM

I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that the Schoolhouse Rock video is utterly adorable.
It is, unfortunately, rather outdated. The arguing Congresspeople should include people attaching silly amendments to poor Bill (until he’s staggering under the weight and doesn’t look like himself anymore). When Bill gets to the Senate, someone puts an anonymous hold on him (an invisible hand holding him down? a big rock?) that lasts for awhile, and then a filibuster.
Sigh.
This is what endless “politicization” gets us.

Comment #4: Esteleth  on  01/18  at  01:32 PM

Going a little further down this road, I’m reminded of a throw-away line from Forrest Gump, where a doctor tells Forrest’s mother that his “spine is as crooked as a politician.” 

Attitudes like that always stick in my craw, since they imply that all politics, and all those who participate, are by-definition corrupt, and therefore no one can avail themselves of politics to solve problems (and indeed, those who try are merely suckers).  Reinforcing social helplessness, I guess.

Comment #5: Clone6  on  01/18  at  01:49 PM

And I argued with them a little, but the whole thing gets super frustrating within minutes because it doesn’t take long to get to the point where you’re explaining that the purpose of government is actually to solve social problems. 
...

The response was basically to say that yeah, these are problems, but hey, I’m the crazy one for suggesting that a response to problems is, gasp, policy.

 

I wonder what the Constitution-fondlers think Jeebus gave the Founders the Constitution for. It’s not like we’re the first country to ever have courts and banks and a police force. I wonder whether they know that?

Comment #6: RickMassimo  on  01/18  at  01:56 PM

So now you dirty hippie libruls are politicizing the very language we speak, all to distract us while your jackbooted thugs — hopped up on lattes, Al Gore books, and Michael Moore movies — swoop down and take all our guns away, take our Rush and Glenn Beck away, burn our VHS tapes of Red Dawn, take down our giant Sarah Palin posters, and force us to eat nothing but testicle-shrinking vegetables and drive a tiny testicle-shrinking electric car to our testicle-shrinking white-collar desk job in the city, where we have a lesbian FemiNazi woman boss who loves to shrink our testicles and there’s a gay kid who delivers the mail and keeps looking funny at us.

If you keep it up, we’re going to have to resort to 2nd Amendment remedies.  We’ll put out more maps featuring crosshairs over the states and congressional districts we’re targeting for conservative conversion, and keep putting them out until…well, you know what happened last time.

Don’t tease the panther…

(...was that enough stereotypical conservative paranoia?  I couldn’t figure out a good way to work in abortion or global climate change…)

Comment #7: MikeEss  on  01/18  at  01:59 PM

“It’s not like we’re the first country to ever have courts and banks and a police force.”

...son, why do you hate America so much?...

Comment #8: MikeEss  on  01/18  at  02:08 PM

I think we should simply refer to wingers from now on as “onastic jingoists”, as per one of your Guardian commenters.

And only as onastic jingoists.

Comment #9: Yamara  on  01/18  at  02:24 PM

I was convinced a while back (by right-wingers on the Internet) that I was in the wrong by stating that the US should have tighter controls on guns.  The reason for this, the thing that convinced me, was that it was too late - there’s no way to put any meaningful controls on the situation.

So I tend to plump for the opposite idea when the wingers get all wanky over their penis substitutes - I advocate an assault rifle and twenty magaziines of ammo for every American - especially each and every American too poor and, um, “urban” if you know what I mean (and they always do…) to maybe afford them.

For some reason that tends to give your average winger gunnut the screaming heebee jeebees.

Comment #10: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  01/18  at  02:57 PM

I agree with your point, but isn’t the issue that “politicize” is becoming (or has become) synonymous with “discuss in or use for purely partisan purposes?”

For that matter that “politics” has for a long time now meant “relating to the electoral horserace” rather than “relating to the process of governing” - and that many people will stare at you blankly, because they can’t make a distinction between the two things in any meaningful way?

When “politics” becomes, purely and simply “the process of scoring points for the purpose of getting or staying elected” then “politicize” has to naturally follow. How could it not?

And for a lot of people, sadly, it makes perfect sense to say “Let’s put politics aside and all work together on this issue that affects our society” - when it is, literally and figuratively, the whole POINT of politics.

Comment #11: Lymis  on  01/18  at  03:05 PM

” The arguing Congresspeople should include people attaching silly amendments to poor Bill (until he’s staggering under the weight and doesn’t look like himself anymore). “

Or, like something out of B-movie science fiction, gut him completely and replace him with an entirely separate pod-person version of himself with entirely different contents.

Comment #12: Lymis  on  01/18  at  03:06 PM

I think you’ve got the wrong former definition for “politicize”.  It used to be (in my days, before you kids got on the lawn) not so much about making mountains out of molehills as about making mirages out of both mountains and molehills. Politicizing global warming, for example: turning a real scientific and technological issue into “Who can rake in the most oil money by stoking anti-intellectualism?”. Politicizing Lani Guinere: “Who can watch the most porn in their hotel room while professing outrage at public mentions of sex?”

In other words, taking the one part of some political debate that demonstrably was about facts rather than the values and politics surrounding those facts and treating it as an exercise in relative power and demagoguery.

Now, I guess it means the same thing, only with extra lies.

Comment #13: paul  on  01/18  at  03:16 PM

I think the term is used by the right because they know people don’t like the word “politics.”  We see this with the conservative overuse of “political correctness” (another term that deserves to die in conversation).  Of course the irony is that it has been the conservatives who have done the most so-called politicizing with 9/11.

Comment #14: Albert Cirrus  on  01/18  at  03:18 PM

MikeEss, thanks for the giggles…

I finished Figge’s book on the RR last night, and the main thing that really gets me is that people really are pretty much the same everywhere and everynow.  People have the same damned-ass conversations about what are essentially talismans of power that cause more misery and inefficiency than anything they proport to solve.  People have the exact same attitude to truth and governing in peasant Russia that they do in whitopia US.  And the only thing that ever makes them change is tombstones.  Either the young flee, and the elderly die off, or lots of sheer horror and brutality (and fear of such) is needed.  It generally wasn’t enough to say that those Whites will take all the stuff you grabbed when it was okay to slaughter the gentry.  Whites usually needed to come in and *show* peasants that.  It wasn’t enough to say that Nazis were evil scum, peasants welcomed them until they realized that the Nazis were far worse than any Bolshevik.

The long term “gentle” answer is simply to make the cities rational, civilized places with real jobs and good educations.  You save some people, but those are usually the people who might have made their own societies, rural or exurbs, better.  You leave a mass of people in stinkin’, privileged poverty only ameliorated by the fact that every politician tells them they’re “middle class”, and some politicians giving them baited flattery (remember racism is just as usually a means to harvest whites as they do black or anyone else).  And then be afraid that if there was ever a gov’t collapse, all those people with guns…

There isn’t really a way around the fact that plenty of people are stupid, intellectually and emotionally.  And that such people do their best to normalize toxic and callous attitudes.

Comment #15: shah8  on  01/18  at  03:19 PM

As Digby points out today, a CNN poll found that 66% of people believe there is nothing society or government can do to prevent mass shootings.

I hate polls like this. There’s no definition. I mean, yes, it’s true that government cannot prevent mass shootings, if by “prevent” you mean “eliminate all possibility of something happening.” We can’t prevent shootings or terrorist attacks or car accidents or anything completely.

We can, however, decrease the likelihood of something happening. We can improve our odds for safety. That’s all we ever do with seatbelts, helmets, border checks, etc.

But people don’t understand this. People want absolutes and guarantees. They want promises, black and white, either you eliminate the risk or you throw up your hands. Gun lobbyists and Republican fear-mongers understand this desire, and they use it to their advantage constantly.

Comment #16: Phoebe Fay  on  01/18  at  03:30 PM

Lymis, I think the best way to depict what you’re describing there is a facehugger. You know, from Alien. *snerk*

Also, I completely agree with Albert Cirrus about the similarities to “political correctness.”

Comment #17: Esteleth  on  01/18  at  03:54 PM

PiaTor, that’s why the laws were changed in California in the mid-60s, because the thought of African-Californians running around enjoying the same rights to brandish loaded weapons in the major cities like any redneck from Weaverville, CA was unthinkable without recourse to the legislature.

Comment #18: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  01/18  at  03:59 PM

Mighty Ponygirl @2: The shooter didn’t have a car. He ran away from home and took a cab to Giffords’ event. Cue right-wing fantasy of the guy holding a gun to the cabbie’s head.

Comment #19: felagund  on  01/18  at  04:45 PM

Sometimes I wonder about the fear right-wing gun owners have about gun restrictions is fueled by a perverse synergy between the NRA and similar organizations whipping up the fear, and then pointing towards groups and sites like the Violence Policy Center to justify their fear. Between the fear the two groups are generating to themselves and each other, it’ hard to be aware of moderate gun regulation discussions without it being tainted by either group.

Comment #20: R.T.  on  01/18  at  04:54 PM

“Politics” had a meaning drift over the years. It used to be that it meant purely the electoral spectacle. If you read Mikhail Bakunin with that understanding, his arguments make a lot more sense, otherwise they sound like word salad.

From “Stateless Socialism : Anarchism”: “There will be no need for a political government because government will be reduced to the simple administration of common affairs.” If you don’t understand the distinction between ‘politics’ and ‘administration of common affairs’ (what we would now call ‘policies’), that sentence means absolutly nothing. Most of his contemporaries used the word in this way.

Nowadays on the Left, even amongst us anarchists, ‘politics’ has been recuperated to mean something else entirely. Saying “the personal is political” or “the only effective political act is popular direct action” is only meaningful if you consider politics to be any action that is revolutionary in potential (i.e. that seeks to change the world, or in the case of the reactionaries to turn the clock back or willfully preserve the status quo).

Comment #21: BlackBloc  on  01/18  at  05:00 PM

PiaToR, one of my med student friends JUST threw me that argument (that there are so many guns floating around in the US at this point that banning them would just beef up the illegal marketplace). My response was that even though you’re not going to eliminate the guns already in existence, you can at least improve things somewhat by regulating sale from here on out. You’re certainly not going to have a worse outcome with the introduction of additional regulation.

Amanda, excellent analysis. This is a phenomenon that irritates me but I wouldn’t have been able to do a good job of articulating why. It reminds me a bit of the article Digby posted yesterday on MLK’s frustration with white moderates. (Bear with me here.) One of the things King was frustrated with was the superior pose that white moderates struck: “we’re with you, but we’re not nearly so disruptive and unreasonable in our methods; won’t you settle down?”  It’s not unlike criticizing “politicalization” for supposedly introducing a political circus into Serious Issues.

I actually see similar attitudes more than I care for in my generation (the elder end of Gen Y)- an attraction to contrarian arguments that confer an air of superiority and an obsession with not appearing “partisan”. It irritates me to no end.

Comment #22: lucidanne  on  01/18  at  05:20 PM

#16:

I hate polls like this. There’s no definition. I mean, yes, it’s true that government cannot prevent mass shootings, if by “prevent” you mean “eliminate all possibility of something happening.” We can’t prevent shootings or terrorist attacks or car accidents or anything completely.

That’s more or less what I thought when I read the survey, too.  People don’t really believe in “perfect security”, so they will typically respond in the negative to these questions.  What’s more, in a country like the US where everyone and his kid brother can buy, sell, and use firearms, the hurdle of security is that much harder to cross.

But I don’t really blame the folks answering the poll as much as I blame the pollsters.  You can phrase a poll question to account for a degree of nuanced opinion.  CNN just choose a very wordy question with only two options.  And it gave them a very lopsided result.  They wanted something to splash as a headline, and they got it.

On top of it all, they don’t really explore what kind of legislation might curb this kind of incident.  I’m not very hopeful that vague, generic, talking-point “gun legislation” will solve gun crime either.  But if you give me something specific, I might provide you with a better point of view.  Hell, if you documented whether the legislation had been tried before and could show a proven record of reduced gun violence, you might even be able to capture majority support.  But we don’t get that.  We just get questions for the man on the street on a subject we’re completely unstudied on.

:-p It’s meaningless bullshit.

Comment #23: Zifnab25  on  01/18  at  05:52 PM

re: too many guns for control to work. 

The guns might be too prevelent already, but I think ammo could be control to desired effects.

Comment #24: D  on  01/18  at  06:34 PM

Amanda, I followed your link to the wingnuts.

WTF are they on??

To: Gena Bukin
If those behind 0bama get their way, most of the remaining US population will be living in lao gai-style barracks housing where they will work for their new masters. The rest will either be in mass graves or gulags.

This, we cannot allow. History is my witness.
45 posted on Monday, January 17, 2011 10:18:58 AM by Noumenon (“We should forgive our enemies, but not before they are hanged.”)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

I can’t even figure out how this dip arrived at these conclusions.

Comment #25: teac  on  01/18  at  06:47 PM

The guns might be too prevelent already, but I think ammo could be control to desired effects.

I’ve read this kind of statement before, both in seriousness and in a way to be cute, but how would one regulate ammunition?

Raise the price?

Limit amount per purchase?

Limit the amount one can own?

Serialize each bullet and casing and register purchasers?

What about handloaders?

Comment #26: R.T.  on  01/18  at  06:49 PM

I’ve read this kind of statement before, both in seriousness and in a way to be cute, but how would one regulate ammunition?

Raise the price?

The Chris Rock Ammo Control Act.  $5000 / bullet.

“That bastard must have deserved it.  He’s got $25k of ammo in him.”

Comment #27: Zifnab25  on  01/18  at  06:55 PM

“If those behind 0bama get their way, most of the remaining US population will be living in lao gai-style barracks housing where they will work for their new masters. The rest will either be in mass graves or gulags.”

...these people project so much they could work in a movie theater…

Comment #28: MikeEss  on  01/18  at  07:12 PM

Take a leaf from John Barne’s “Mother of Storms”.

Really really tight controls over all handguns EXCEPT special “Defender” pistols, which are manufactured dirt cheap.  These come preloaded with a clip of, say, 6 bullets, cannot be reloaded (indeed, are plastic for cheapness and degrade after firing six shots), which set off a radio beacon when fired, use ink to stain the hand of a shooter, and include microdots (duplicated in the bullets) which stick to the firer and the area in which it is fired.

You can have a gun.  You can even fire through a clip - once But the cops are going to know, and be able to identify you - so it better be self defense…

Comment #29: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  01/18  at  07:54 PM

I’ve read this kind of statement before, both in seriousness and in a way to be cute, but how would one regulate ammunition?

That would depend on exactly what was desired to achieve.  Obviously there are limitations to what can be done, but this is a response to a supposed situation where guns are too prevalent to be directly regulated effectively.

Comment #30: D  on  01/18  at  08:18 PM

Yeah, I’m visiting family back home, and the phrase “not politically correct” gets tossed around.  I’ve been pretty careful to say, “I don’t think it’s ‘not politically correct’ so much as really rude,” and I think a few lights have been coming on.

Comment #31: Punditus Maximus  on  01/18  at  08:27 PM

I just re-watched “The American President” the other day and I’m reminded of the ending. President Shepard’s Republican opponent kept going on TV making personal attacks on the president and his girlfriend, and Shepard refused to respond because he figured everyone would understand that the Republican guy was being silly. In reference to Amanda’s post, the Republican was treating politics like a sideshow performance - and as Amanda said, Republicans do that to keep people’s minds off the real issues, the ones that Republicans have no intention of solving. At the end of the movie Shepard finally realized that he needed to remind people of this so he stood up and gave his “We have serious problems to solve, and we need serious people to solve them” speech.

And that was back in the 90s. The situation is even worse these days, to the point that even Democrats have to play along with the Republicans’ childish games lest the people just become bored and turn the channel to CSI or something.

Comment #32: Triplanetary  on  01/18  at  08:29 PM

Whatever happens to YOU is down to “human nature” and cannot be helped.  Whatever happens to ME is due to the laws not being strict enough and people getting away with murder.

Comment #33: scratchy888  on  01/18  at  08:53 PM

Comment #29: Phoenician in a time of Romans

Small handguns like a ruger lcr/sw 642 take a lot of practice to use well. They are not as forgiving as a heavier handgun and have piss poor sights as a consequence of concealable design, can’t have parts to snag when being drawn.

Nobody could get practice with your “DEFENDER” pistol as you’d have to buy a new one each time you go to the range, deal with the police, deal with stains, and whatever else built into this disposable gun.

Without practice the person wielding a DEFENDER pistol will more likely endanger themselves and others rather than actually defending themselves.

Plus no-one is going to trust their life in a gun designed to fail.

Comment #34: R.T.  on  01/18  at  08:56 PM

Nobody could get practice with your “DEFENDER” pistol as you’d have to buy a new one each time you go to the range, deal with the police, deal with stains, and whatever else built into this disposable gun.

Or, you know, you can go to a tightly controlled range and practice with something that had the same characteristics to your little heart’s content - and then carry an actual Defender outside that range.

Plus no-one is going to trust their life in a gun designed to fail.

Please.  It was designed (in, I should point out, a near-future fictional book) to work very well - for six shots.

Comment #35: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  01/18  at  09:18 PM

Comment #35: Phoenician in a time of Romans

Your proposed fantasy solution is like having someone learn to play a musical instrument well by only being able to practice with their intrument at a designated place and time under another’s watch.

And statistically, if something is designed to stop functioning after X uses, some of those things will fail before X is reached.

Real guns, even quality guns fail, even though theoretically they could be shot 100,000 times and neglected for 50 years and still function as they are meant to.

Comment #36: R.T.  on  01/18  at  11:07 PM

Your proposed fantasy solution is like having someone learn to play a musical instrument well by only being able to practice with their intrument at a designated place and time under another’s watch.

This is, generally, how people learn to play an instrument.

Now, as to playing it well, that’s another matter.  Why, I imagine that if anyone wanted to learn how to shoot a gun well, they would have to make an effort.  Get a license.  Ensure the safety of those around them.  Make a commitment to spend time at a designated range.  Treat shooting a gun as something akin to, say, surgery rather than driving a car.

In short, to reflect a social attitude that guns are not things to be waved around or treated casually, that if you want to rationalise handguns as being necessary for self defense you should damn well act that way, and that the mere act of firing a handgun outside of a sports range was to be treated as a very very serious matter.

Or you can stick with the current American attitude where they’re emblems of personal power so fools can feel better about themselves, and the death and destruction it causes.  Your choice.

Comment #37: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  01/18  at  11:22 PM

R.T., guns are killing machines. In a perfect world they wouldn’t exist in significant numbers at all. If people insist on them existing in significant numbers, the goal should not be to make them as convenient as possible to access and use.

Comment #38: Triplanetary  on  01/18  at  11:25 PM

And statistically, if something is designed to stop functioning after X uses, some of those things will fail before X is reached.

Real guns, even quality guns fail, even though theoretically they could be shot 100,000 times and neglected for 50 years and still function as they are meant to.

The idea is that the guns are there for self-defense, remember?  It doesn’t really matter if they fail after 4 or 5 shots, or if there’s one chance in 200 that they won’t fire at all.  The idea, supposedly, is that having them around makes people safer, and that they are around solely to make people safer - especially by reducing crime and deterring attack.  Right?

Your argument only makes sense if you’re focused on how cool it is to shoot people, and how powerful having a big gun makes you feel.

Comment #39: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  01/18  at  11:33 PM

PiatoR, as a liberal pinko-commie socialist nanny-stater who isn’t crazy about guns and thinks that improved gun control (such as magazine size restrictions, assault weapons restrictions, etc) would be a great idea, your “defender pistol” idea totally blows, and your argument that thinking it blows only makes sense “if you’re focused on how cool it is to shoot people,” is bullshit. If you actually think people should be allowed to carry for self-defense, shit designed to break isn’t going to do it. If you are instead trying to make some kind of broader point about how an armed citizenry does not actually deter violent crime, then come out and fucking say so. There’s an argument to be made there. Suggesting the distribution of cheap, low-quality firearms is idiotic, whether sincere or not.

As for R.T: why do ammunition or gun control policies need to work perfectly in order to be worth implementing? It’s kind of frickin’ obvious that they won’t. But they DO make it more difficult for would-be criminals to acquire the guns. Lougher legally bought the gun in spite of a history of instability. This is something that we can try to prevent through policy. Believing that policy like this won’t help, even given the number of guns available through illegal channels, means accepting that 100% of potential violent criminals have the resources and interest to obtain guns by any means necessary. That’s just a little bit of a logical reach. And if the number is less than 0, then gun control policies will have a positive effect. QED.

Comment #40: grolby  on  01/19  at  01:59 AM

Argh. “Less than 100%,” not “less than 0.”

Comment #41: grolby  on  01/19  at  02:00 AM

If you actually think people should be allowed to carry for self-defense, shit designed to break isn’t going to do it.

Pardon me - it’s designed to fire off a clip of six bullets - once - while screaming for help.  Explain to us why, in the majority of cases, this isn’t enough.  Do most incidents of civilians using a gun for self defense involve releading, outside movies?

Comment #42: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  01/19  at  02:28 AM

It doesn’t sound to me like it’s designed to break. It sounds to me like it’s designed to be disposable. To argue against that working, you’d probably have to argue against the completely adequate functioning of the one-use items we currently take for granted, like ball point pens and soda cans—just because they’re made with a defined lifespan doesn’t mean they won’t perform correctly during that lifespan.

Comment #43: kristin  on  01/19  at  03:16 AM

I’ve encountered Democrats who don’t seem to understand that policy can be and is used to address certain social problems. My father-in-law out in Idaho Falls, for example, was all “I hate Bush as much as anyone, but it’s ironic, with all the shit that he did, that people lost confidence in him after that Katherinka business. How can you blame a guy for a hurricane?”

Comment #44: Josh  on  01/19  at  09:04 AM

I have 4 VHS tapes of School House Rock.  They are still the bomb.
Mighty Pony Girl, my understanding was the guy was unable to get a driver’s license, so would have had to steal or borrow a car and drive illegally.
Tangentially OT - I saw Wolf Blitzer going on and on about how Europeans would be just shocked at all our guns in the USA, et al.  Does no one know the Swiss are European?  Doesn’t anyone realize Scandenavians hunt?  (as do Germans, though legal gun licensure is a long process).  Urban Europeans, perhaps; Europeans, no.

Comment #45: helen w. h.  on  01/19  at  02:18 PM

Josh, you know Democrats in ID Falls?  I know a couple in Emmett.  They seem rare, but more because the people who mind their own business seem to be evenly distributed, while the blowhards out there look to be GOPers or l/Libertarians.

Triplanetary on 01/18 at 09:25 PM, Again with the urban bias (I’m assuming you’re urban).  There are reasons, even in a non-existant “perfect” world, to have guns.

Comment #46: helen w. h.  on  01/19  at  02:31 PM

Comment #37: Phoenician in a time of Romans

Now, as to playing it well, that’s another matter.  Why, I imagine that if anyone wanted to learn how to shoot a gun well, they would have to make an effort.  Get a license.  Ensure the safety of those around them.  Make a commitment to spend time at a designated range.  Treat shooting a gun as something akin to, say, surgery rather than driving a car.

In short, to reflect a social attitude that guns are not things to be waved around or treated casually, that if you want to rationalise handguns as being necessary for self defense you should damn well act that way, and that the mere act of firing a handgun outside of a sports range was to be treated as a very very serious matter.

It seems pretty obvious that you don’t know jack shit about the attitudes of gun owners.

People who are serious about their weapons respect the danger they represent and practice so they can carry and wield their weapon without putting people in unintentional danger. They know it’s a serious matter. I know it’s a serious matter

You make assertions as if you know better than the people who actually do what you say they should do.

But I’m not going to say owning a gun automatically makes you a responsible gun owner like many in the right-wing gun culture assert. It’s obvious that there are a lot of gun owners that don’t respect what their weapons can do. All those people who carry without practice, who gloat about their guns and show up at demonstrations armed just to show off their weapon; those are irresponsible gun owners.

Or you can stick with the current American attitude where they’re emblems of personal power so fools can feel better about themselves, and the death and destruction it causes.  Your choice.

Very obvious that you know jack about gun owners if all you’ve got is this bullshit false dichotomy.

Comment #38: Triplanetary

R.T., guns are killing machines.

That’s the point of a gun.

I used to be anti-gun, because of the statement that their purpose is to kill. After some personal changes in my life, the fact that guns kill became the reason I support ownership of them.

In a perfect world they wouldn’t exist in significant numbers at all. If people insist on them existing in significant numbers, the goal should not be to make them as convenient as possible to access and use.

Are you assuming that I disagree?

Comment #39: Phoenician in a time of Romans

The idea is that the guns are there for self-defense, remember?  It doesn’t really matter if they fail after 4 or 5 shots, or if there’s one chance in 200 that they won’t fire at all.  The idea, supposedly, is that having them around makes people safer, and that they are around solely to make people safer - especially by reducing crime and deterring attack.  Right?

If a person needs to defend themselves the thing they are relying on for defense better work, be that thing a mace, knife, club, or gun.

For responsible carrying of a gun, the only reason you should ever draw it is if you feel you are in imminent danger of you life, and when you draw the only intent is to use lethal force. It is not responsible to brandish a weapon just for show, it is not responsible to draw your weapon and go play hero. Your weapon is your last resort if you can’t otherwise escape a dangerous situation and your weapon is only to protect you. Peoples’ lives are put in danger by those who try to stop “bad guys” by being proactive with their weapons.

I reject the right-wing argument that crime will be reduced and lives saved by armed people actively involving themselves in life threatening situations.

Your argument only makes sense if you’re focused on how cool it is to shoot people, and how powerful having a big gun makes you feel.

Gun owners aren’t a monolithic block, so stop assuming my arguments are the same as the extreme right wing.

Comment #47: R.T.  on  01/19  at  05:59 PM

Comment #40: grolby

As for R.T: why do ammunition or gun control policies need to work perfectly in order to be worth implementing? It’s kind of frickin’ obvious that they won’t. But they DO make it more difficult for would-be criminals to acquire the guns. Lougher legally bought the gun in spite of a history of instability. This is something that we can try to prevent through policy. Believing that policy like this won’t help, even given the number of guns available through illegal channels, means accepting that 100% of potential violent criminals have the resources and interest to obtain guns by any means necessary. That’s just a little bit of a logical reach. And if the number is less than 0, then gun control policies will have a positive effect. QED.

Goddammit. Will people stop assuming what I believe and what arguments I’ve presented?

Comment #48: R.T.  on  01/19  at  06:00 PM

For responsible carrying of a gun, the only reason you should ever draw it is if you feel you are in imminent danger of you life, and when you draw the only intent is to use lethal force. It is not responsible to brandish a weapon just for show, it is not responsible to draw your weapon and go play hero. Your weapon is your last resort if you can’t otherwise escape a dangerous situation and your weapon is only to protect you. Peoples’ lives are put in danger by those who try to stop “bad guys” by being proactive with their weapons.

Your problem is that this comment is not contradicted by the thought-experiment of a Defender.

Comment #49: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  01/19  at  06:36 PM

Pardon me - it’s designed to fire off a clip of six bullets - once - while screaming for help.  Explain to us why, in the majority of cases, this isn’t enough.  Do most incidents of civilians using a gun for self defense involve releading, outside movies?

To get into technical details: a pistol’s magazine is part of the weapon system, it’s also a part that can fail by improperly feeding a bullet into the weapon’s chamber. People who carry semiautomatic weapons usually carry a spare magazine in case the one in the pistol fails. Ammunition failures are fixed by racking the slide and changing the magazine in the event that a bullet’s case breaks and falls into the magazine. It’s critical to be able to change a magazine in a semi-automatic to fix a failure.

Now a revolver doesn’t have a magazine to fail, but ammunition can fail in a way that prevents the cylinder from rotating. My first time at a range with my first revolver had a bullet fail, the primer popped backwards jamming the bullet casing against the choke inside the cylinder and the rear of the revolver. It took a lot of force to get the cylinder to slide open so I could remove the bullet. In your non re-loadable defender gun that bullet would have rendered it useless.

Comment #50: R.T.  on  01/19  at  06:43 PM

Your problem is that this comment is not contradicted by the thought-experiment of a Defender.

I’m not arguing for the right-wing position on gun carry.

Comment #51: R.T.  on  01/19  at  06:47 PM

Triplanetary on 01/18 at 09:25 PM, Again with the urban bias (I’m assuming you’re urban).  There are reasons, even in a non-existant “perfect” world, to have guns.

I wasn’t raised urban, and lots of my family members hunt, so I’m well aware. In fact I changed my post from “wouldn’t exist at all” to “wouldn’t exist in significant numbers” for that reason. You and I both know that Loughner didn’t use a hunting rifle in his assassination attempt. He used a gun designed to kill people. Attempting to conflate the two doesn’t make for a good argument.

Comment #52: Triplanetary  on  01/19  at  07:45 PM

If I were American, I’d be all for gun control up the wazoo, but the fact is that gun control laws will only be partially effective unless there’s a major change in American gun culture.

Comment #53: Katherine  on  01/20  at  12:52 PM

You and I both know Loughner didn’t use a hunting rifle, but hunting rifles are guns.  Saying guns would not exist in significant numbers would preclude hunting, unless you and I have very different definitions of significant numbers.  Any serious hunter will have at least 3 - a rifle, a shotgun and a pistol for killing a wounded animal quickly if needed.  Most hunters I know are likely to have at least twice that number [two or three shotguns-410, 20 gauge, 12 gauge are pretty standard, two or three rifles (especially if they hunt a size-range of animals), something for targets, a pistol or two].  If 10 % of the population have 3 or more guns, I would call that significant numbers.

Comment #54: helen w. h.  on  01/20  at  05:52 PM

I blame the proliferation of the word “politicization”—-at least this specific use of it—-and the assumption bundled up in it, which is that politics aren’t the correct tool to use to solve social problems, and that saying otherwise somehow drains problems of their seriousness.

This perception is especially a problem for the left (or whatever label you’d apply to people in direct opposition to Tea Partiers and libertarians): the reasoning runs, if government isn’t there to solve social problms, what am I paying all these taxes for and why do I have to follow all these regulations?

I’m not sure why following regulations is supposed to be a bigger infringement on my freedom than following laws, but it is, apparently. And yes, taxes are lower and regullation less burdensome than the average Tea Partier and fellow-traveler claims to find them, but that needs to be attacked from both ends, not just “your taxes aren’t really all that high” but also “they honestly are worth it.”

Going a little further down this road, I’m reminded of a throw-away line from Forrest Gump, where a doctor tells Forrest’s mother that his “spine is as crooked as a politician.”
Attitudes like that always stick in my craw, since they imply that all politics, and all those who participate, are by-definition corrupt, and therefore no one can avail themselves of politics to solve problems (and indeed, those who try are merely suckers).
Comment 5—Clone6

How about:

Idiot used to mean “someone not involved in politics”; candidate used to mean “someone who tells the truth.”

I’m visiting family back home, and the phrase “not politically correct” gets tossed around.  I’ve been pretty careful to say, “I don’t think it’s ‘not politically correct’ so much as really rude,” and I think a few lights have been coming on.
Comment 31—Punditus Maximus

“Can we stop using ‘politically incorrect’ to mean ‘harsh truth?’ It really just means harsh. While we’re at it, can we stop trivializing decency in discourse by labeling it ‘political correctness’? Avoiding discriminatory and hurtful language isn’t some partisan posture. It’s just a basic step in not being a dickhead.” –Holly

I wish I’d said it, though.

Comment #55: Hershele Ostropoler  on  01/23  at  05:19 PM
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