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Next entry: What kind of leadership does the LGBT movement need? Previous entry: Mostly an excuse to share the Neiwert link

The dangers of ignoring the dark fantasies of the Christian right

I read Jesse’s post about a forced birther who faked a troubled pregnancy right after I read Joan Walsh’s story of trying to go on O’Reilly, only to be confronted with a bunch of screaming and bullshit that made any sort of discourse impossible.  Together, they give one a small glimpse into something sane people try to ignore most of the time, but stop ignoring in the wake of something like a political assassination of an abortion provider—-the Christian right are not people of “values”, they are batshit motherfucking nuts.  In the process of trying to hammer at Walsh, O’Reilly let fly with one of the fantasies (like the fake pregnancy Jesse described) that become justification for the fetus worshippers, and it’s a doozy.

He brought out uncorroborated stories he claimed he’d never shown before: a 13-year-old girl (I couldn’t see her or verify her story) who claimed Tiller killed her baby and had her deliver it in a toilet.

I know, I know—-it’s important to believe that people are arguing in good faith, etc., but the anti-choice movement has made it abundantly clear that reality will not get in their way.  So I feel quite assured in believing this story is 110%, thorough bullshit that Christianists who spread it know is bullshit on a certain level.  After a certain point, it’s not even lying exactly.  The Christian right is shot through with self-justifying fantasies that the rest of us politely ignore, in no small part because we’re honestly afraid if we pay too much attention to what they believe, we’ll start to get sucked into the narrative, and we will also lose our minds.  So we look away, and in doing so, we give them cover so they can participate in the mainstream of America, grab the reins of power, and never have TV anchors ask, “So can you tell me exactly what happens when you cast demons out of someone?”

I suppose we also don’t want to expose how nuts they are, because it also feels like picking on someone for being pitiable.  But no matter how pitiful the sad sacks who wave fetus pictures at women are, no matter how obvious it is that they’re motivated by resentment of the exciting world out there where people have real lives instead of their miserable ones, we can’t let them just take it out on women to make up for it.  We can’t let their lurid fantasies rule over us.

We also have to accept that no matter how pitiful they are, they spread these crazy stories for fundamentally mean, hateful reasons.  Fred at Slacktivist wrote what I think is the best post ever on the tendency of Christianists to get involved in lurid fantasies that they know on some level are bullshit, and why they do it

But in truth they were neither innocent nor dupes. The category of innocent dupe does not apply here. No one could be honestly misled by such a story. The only way to have been misled by it is dishonestly—which is to say deliberately, willingly and willfully. They are claiming to believe a foolish thing, but they are not guilty of foolishness. They are guilty of malice.

They are just plain guilty.

Which brings us to the interesting and complicated question: Why? Why would anyone choose to pretend to believe such preposterous and malicious falsehoods? What’s in it for them?


As we say in the biz, read the whole thing.  Fred’s talking about the Proctor & Gamble fantasy-hoax that was spread by Christianists—-I’m sure you’ve heard it, and politely turned your head and hoped it didn’t infect you.  In a sense, most of our reactions to obvious superstition and fantasy is to superstitiously fear it.  But these fantasies spread by the Christian right are only going to be purged by some sunlight, so let’s put aside our worries that it’s catching and start talking about the problem.  It’s not new, the pandering to these lurid fantasies by refusing to acknowledge them when politically important believers go on TV, or giving a fantasist like Ross Douthat (who has the sense to know which ones sound really awful, so he cleans them up for his column) a space in the NY Times.  Tipper Gore played the same “look away politely” maneuver in the 80s when she paired up with the religious right to censor the music industry.  Gore may have been upset about hearing the word “masturbation” in a Prince song, but the people she partnered with?  Believed that rock music had secret Satanic messages on it that were being embedded in kids’ minds subliminally.

Satanism was a big thing in the 80s, if you’ll recall, no doubt with that prickle of fear that you’re losing your mind as you feel the tug of their crazy fantasies on the part of your brain that engages stories.  For years, people honestly believed that day cares housed Satanic cults, that Satanists were holding secret seances in their towns, and that Freddie Mercury of Queen was trying to turn your kids to Satan.  (I remember seeing him singled out in a documentary about Satanic rock music that used to play on access channels here, one that I was perversely fascinated by.)  This belief retreated from the mainstream, but lives on in the religious right in the widespread belief that sin is the result of demons infecting you, demons that need to be exorcised.  (Something presidential Bobby Jindal is on record for having done.) 

While all that is relevant, what’s particularly interesting to me is that the fantasies that are the bread and butter of the anti-choice movement are so politely and pointedly ignored that they rarely even merit a little mainstream attention.  We’re incorrectly led to believe that these people are basically like normal people, except that they really hate abortion.  Anti-choicers do get some minor attention for the fantasies they’ve cleverly rewritten to seem like they’re scientific claims, such as claiming that the pill kills fertilized eggs (no evidence for this, which should be the end of this discussion, but people are stupid about science) or that there’s a link between abortion and breast cancer of that there’s something called “post-abortive syndrome”, which there is not.  When something’s wrapped in the rhetoric of science, it’s a little less scary to look at it, because you feel that your grasp on reality will be unaffected, because all you need to do is point to the real evidence.  But these fake scientific claims swirl around in an anti-choice world steeped in incredible fantasies, and we can’t understand their mentality unless we look at these. 

The operating myth of the anti-choice movement is that abortion providers a) only do that and b) because they love killing babies.  Women who get abortions are mindless, of course, because women are, and are victims of the female inability to actually make good decisions, and it’s assumed they’ll wake up one day and realize what they did.  From this stems some really crazy fantasies.  Jill Stanek, for one, has spread stories about doctors who eat the fetuses after they abort the pregnancies, for instance.  There’s also a bunch of women who run around claiming they “survived” abortion.  The way they play this off is they claim that it was a saline abortion, a convenient excuse because such a thing would leave no evidence trail, but it also makes no sense since abortions are mostly performed through vacuum aspiration or D&C, and this is true even when they were illegal.  Who knows where these fantasies come from?  But not only are they dangerous on a large scale political level if we ignore them, they’re a minor example of the internal weirdness and cruelty that the Christianists perform on each other.

I have no doubt that there is a 13-year-old out there making this claim about the abortion and the toilet.  All the worse for her if she actually believes it, which would also not surprise me.  Now, young people are particularly prone to confusing reality and fantasy, which is why the ghost stories that so entranced and scared you in junior high school lose their power in adulthood, when you’re mentally more formed.  Let’s just hope that all that’s being exploited is this, and she will grow up and stop half-believing that this happened to her, just as you stopped half-believing that weird, empty house that all the older kids visited for smoking pot was haunted by the family that was murdered there (an event that all kids in the community but no adults seem to know about).  But in the event that the young woman in question, if she exists, actually is suffering from mental health issues that are causing her to be unable to distinguish between reality and fantasy, then she’s in real trouble.  No one’s going to get her the help that she needs, because her delusion is too politically valuable. 

This is not a small issue with the anti-choice community.  Once they concocted the idea of “post-abortive syndrome”, they had a real need to collect a lot of women who’ve had abortions and have serious mental health issues as poster children, so they can claim the issues are the result of the abortion.  But let’s think about what this means, beyond the political cynicism of it.  Women who are convinced by their fellow church member that their mental health issues stem back to abortion are told that they can heal themselves through anti-choice activism and prayer.  I don’t imagine there’s a lot of assistance in getting them the real help they need.  On the contrary, if someone goes to a real psychologist who knows what they’re doing, they’re not going to get a “post-abortive” diagnosis, since there is no such thing.  And if they deal with their real problems instead of blaming abortion, they’ll drift away from their spot in the anti-choice movement, where they get pampered and praised for being such useful political footballs. 

This incredibly cynical use of vulnerable women, many who admittedly and obviously have serious mental health issues, really points up to how little the anti-choice movement really does think of women.  These women have sought refuge and help in these communities, and instead of getting help, they’re encouraged to spin off into darker and weirder places mentally, because the more weird and feeble they are, the better they work as political pawns. I have seen that there’s some men who claim to be “post-abortive”, but that’s less troubling, because their stories tend to be focused on how they couldn’t make someone have a baby, and so the relationship ended and they’re sad about that.  But I’ve not seen any men who claim to have “survived” abortion, and of course, it’s not men spinning these weird fantasies of their own abortions. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 10:20 AM • (203) Comments

There’s a guy on the Gawker discussion about the Joan Walsh appearance opining that the mental health exception ought to be eliminated because it just bothers him so, and he’s certain that women are abusing it. And he’s got this ridiculously Gary Stu ish name, too, if you follow the trail back. My point? Impregnating women, or having some control over women, is the barest fantasy and validation these guys have, and it’s a biological one. That’s like….if you can pee, your dick works, so write your name in the snow. Women are just the snow to them.

I have to think that the women making up this shit have glimpsed the hatred and contempt for women that seethes and bubbles in these guys’ brains and have realized that it’s either ‘lying bitch whore’ or hapless victim who’s contemptible but powerless. Either way, it’s the perfect example of how women are treated like substances contorted by their containers—-like freezing ice in an ice cube tray. The damage inflicted by being in that environment may well be permanent. After all, ice shatters. The only support these women probably get is if they’re victimized, and that requires that they be, well, victimized.

It’s the same thing as the scary Catholic stories I grew up on, of female saints whose torture at the hands of savage pagans—you know, Satanists, if you’re a fundie—-was lovingly detailed, over and over again. That’s it. That’s all. Those are your options.

Comment #1: ginmar  on  06/14  at  10:45 AM

To require Tiller’s services for a late term procedure, you would need a court order.  If the story of the 13 year old really happened, then there would be a public record of it.

Comment #2: Ms Kate  on  06/14  at  11:04 AM

To save anyone else’s fingers from google cramp, part 2 of Fred’s “False Witness"essay is here. And also well worth reading.

Comment #3: MissPrism  on  06/14  at  11:05 AM

Oh, and notice that these jerks never tell stories about the logical downside of parental consent laws, which would be the parents using their existence to claim that they had a right to force a minor female into having an abortion.  That’s contradictory.  That doesn’t fit their narrative.

Comment #4: Ms Kate  on  06/14  at  11:08 AM

The 13 y/o is a Just. So. Jill.Stanek story.

Having given birth, I can tell you that people undoubtedly do deliver on the toilet.  Seated in a crouched position is one of the more comfortable positions you can be in while pushing, and that’s why nurses do their damnedest to make sure you’re not delivering on the toilet.

Not b/c it would kill the baby, but b/c fishing a baby out of a toilet is never a good idea.  Especially since you have to knock the mother out of the way to do it.

Jill Stanek loves this shit.  She’s the wackaloon nurse who testifies that aborted babies were left in closets to die.  Her brave testimony about this “fact” is why she’s a hero to the forced-birthers. 

Her accusations were investigated.  No evidence of her stories has ever been found.  She’s a liar for the cause.  It’s okay to make up shit, if you make it up for Jesus and to save the babies.

The babies without brains.
The babies without faces.
The babies with organs outside their bodies.
The babies without organs.

All those babies would be running around, playing, laughing, paying taxes if they hadn’t been MURDERED by the baby killers.

————

My husband’s college girlfriend became pregnant.  She turned down his offer of marriage.  They both continued their college educations.

I would not be with my husband if he’d had a child.  I didn’t date divorced people or people with children.  I also didn’t date smokers or men with facial hair.  Or women. 

We have three children together who would not be here if his college girlfriend had gone through with the pregnancy.

So…whom do you choose?  Do you choose to keep the potential baby that forces its parents to drop out of college?  Or do you choose the 3 formerly potential children whose parents finished their educations and were able to have much better employment opportunities—which is part of the reason there are 3 and not 1?  Which fetuseses are more important or better?

You can’t have both.

Comment #5: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  06/14  at  11:41 AM

As someone who grew up in Oklahoma, I have to say you are absolutely right about them being “batshit motherfucking nuts” and they have gotten more so over the past 30-40 years.  While they have never had the tightest grip on reality, when I was growing up in the 50s and 60s they were not nearly this crazy.  While it does require a kind of willful suspension of disbelief (which is after all the hallmark of their faith), I do think most of them really believe this horseshit they are spreading.  On the other hand they subscribe to a belief system that says it is OK to lie for Jesus.  Not sure how the good rabbi would feel about that, however, since he did say you had to follow all of the law and there is that thing about false witness and all.

Comment #6: DrDick  on  06/14  at  11:42 AM

Anyone who believes in the basic tenets of the Christian faith has already willfully accepted a fantasy as their moral compass; it’s not too much further down the road to push onto others the lies you have embraced yourself.

Comment #7: jjcomet  on  06/14  at  12:00 PM

“Which fetuseses are more important or better?”

This is an interesting point, Caren, that I wish anti-choicers would consider. Another example: I know that between giving birth to me and my younger siblings my mother had several miscarriages. If those miscarriages had been live births, my brother and sister would not exist. (We’re not a Quiverfull family.) Should I mourn the loss of those miscarried fetuses and wish they were my siblings instead of the ones I actually have? Like Amanda has written here before, much of anti-choice thinking seems to stem from a fear of death, a wish to control life’s serendipity.

Comment #8: Margo  on  06/14  at  12:01 PM

Satanism was a big thing in the 80s, ...  For years, people honestly believed that day cares housed Satanic cults,

I didn’t realize this till just now: moms would be a lot less likely to work outside the home if—as it appeared throughout the 80s—leaving your kids at day care put your innocent babies in the hands of child molestors if not actual Satanists. The most prominent of these was the McMartin daycare scandal, which ended in the dropping of all charges. Wikip says the complaining mom was later diagnosed with schizophrenia.

Comment #9: Hector B.  on  06/14  at  12:08 PM

Another example: I know that between giving birth to me and my younger siblings my mother had several miscarriages. If those miscarriages had been live births, my brother and sister would not exist. (We’re not a Quiverfull family.) Should I mourn the loss of those miscarried fetuses and wish they were my siblings instead of the ones I actually have?

Similar story here—my parents’ first was stillborn (and waiting for the permissions to induce pre-Roe was awful, by all accounts) at 7+ months, and I was conceived within a week or two of the original due date, which wouldn’t have happened had there been a newborn around (& I also have two younger siblings who may not have happened in an alternate reality).  A lot of my pro-choice understanding is based on the fact that I always knew my parents had wanted me desperately, but as I matured I also realized—with no rancor—that had they been given a choice in advance they would have preferred that the first baby lived, which is completely natural.  By anti-choicers’ narcissistic reasoning, I should really be pro-stillbirth, since it’s thanks to one that I’m here.

Comment #10: latts  on  06/14  at  12:19 PM

Another example: I know that between giving birth to me and my younger siblings my mother had several miscarriages. If those miscarriages had been live births, my brother and sister would not exist. (We’re not a Quiverfull family.) Should I mourn the loss of those miscarried fetuses and wish they were my siblings instead of the ones I actually have?

Same thing here.  My mom got pregnant with me in college at 19, dropped out, married my dad, had me, and proceeded to pop out more babies (and put her life on hold for 25 years until she and Dad divorced, she went back to school, etc.).  She also had a miscarriage between me and my younger sisters, and another one between them.  If either of those had been carried to term, one or both of my very cool sisters wouldn’t be here. 

And by anti-choicer reasoning, I should also be anti choice, as I was born after Roe and abortion was legal then, even in bumfuck southern WV where I’m from, but my mom made the conscious choice to have me instead of finishing school and getting on with her life.  However, I’m adamantly pro-choice, because had I been in her situation, I would absolutely not have had a baby at 19 and I can say positively that, while I’m glad things turned out the way they did and that my mom has a pretty good life now, she would have avoided a lot of heartache and other difficulties had she made a different choice back then.  And it doesn’t bother me at all to think of it, because I love my mom and want her to be happy.

Comment #11: ks  on  06/14  at  12:28 PM

Randall Terry has always gloated about how his mother and her sisters suffered unplanned pregnancies and had to—-at least in his miserable case—-give birth.  He really does suffer from an odd combination of really justified shitty self assessment and conceit. I mean, he’s like the George W. Bush of the Pre Life people; he never succeeded at a damned thing except hating women and selling it.  Really, I think shitty people ought to have shitty self esteem, and every now and then you get a glimpse of how much this guy understands he’s a loathsome scumbag. But he also thinks other people are disgusting, too, so why on earth would women consent to give birth?

Comment #12: ginmar  on  06/14  at  12:31 PM

Anyone who believes in the basic tenets of the Christian faith has already willfully accepted a fantasy as their moral compass; it’s not too much further down the road to push onto others the lies you have embraced yourself.

Depends what you mean by “the basic tenets of the Christian faith”.  If you believe the basic tenets to be cosmological—creation over a six-day period within the last seven thousand years, a trinitarian divinity including one member who incarnated through a virgin birth—then, yes, “fantasy” is a fair cop.  However, if you believe them to be the Beatitudes and Luke 6:31 (“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”), then you have a moral philosophy that could function even if time travelers went back in time and found that Jesus’s claims to divinity were actually an elaborate parody of the divine status of the Roman emperors and that the Bible as we know it left out all the smilies.  This isn’t just a quibble; Fred at Slacktivist is so effective at puncturing Christianist nonsense because he is a Christian, of the Beatitudes-and-reciprocity stripe, and has the experience and knowledge to point out the heterodoxies of the Christianist majority within modern evangelical movement.

Comment #13: cminus  on  06/14  at  12:44 PM

I read a whole mess of women’s stories on a bunch of sites.  That one about the 13 year old sounds very similar to this story.  http://www.dr-tiller.com/erin.htm  She’s 12, but maybe they upped the age because they didn’t want to freak out the Fox viewers. 

I’m not even going to pretend one way or another about the validity of the story-this one could be true, but there are two on that site that are obviously made up.

Comment #14: drachonfire  on  06/14  at  12:58 PM

There’s a guy on the Gawker discussion about the Joan Walsh appearance opining that the mental health exception ought to be eliminated because it just bothers him so, and he’s certain that women are abusing it.

I’ve concluded that the mental health exception bothers people who don’t think women have minds that count.

Comment #15: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/14  at  01:03 PM

I’ve concluded that the mental health exception bothers people who don’t think women have minds that count.

He appears to be of the Pickup Artist mentality, which might explain a lot of the barely-concealed frustration. If women don’t have brains, how come they won’t fall for it, dammit?! If he can’t control them one way, then he’ll take another.

By the way, if you love Prince, you should try and get ahold of anything by Jill Jones, an obscure protege of his. I got ahold of some of her stuff and it’s just knocking me out.

Comment #16: ginmar  on  06/14  at  01:07 PM

Part 2 of Slacktivist’s analysis of lying liars is here.

Comment #17: BABH  on  06/14  at  01:10 PM

Anyone who believes in the basic tenets of the Christian faith has already willfully accepted a fantasy as their moral compass; it’s not too much further down the road to push onto others the lies you have embraced yourself.

Sorry, but Christianity is not required in order to hold bizarre, harmful beliefs.  I’m pretty sure that Jenny McCarthy is not a Christian, but her belief that vaccination causes autism and that her perfect mother-love cured her son’s autism is pretty fucking harmful.

Comment #18: Mnemosyne  on  06/14  at  01:23 PM

To require Tiller’s services for a late term procedure, you would need a court order.  If the story of the 13 year old really happened, then there would be a public record of it.

No, you needed two doctors to sign off on a 3rd trimester abortion, and Dr. Tiller did more than that.  But because the antis believed these stories, they routinely prosecuted Dr. Tiller and opened up his files, and nothing was found.  There were plenty of child rape victims, but they were handled with the utmost consideration and care.  What fascinates me is that the antis, when presented with evidence that Dr. Tiller helped child rape victims, were all outraged, and pretended that the rape had something to do with it.  From this story, it’s clear that they have zero problem with raping children and forcing them to bear children—-they just get upset when the children escape the forced childbirth.

Comment #19: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/14  at  01:26 PM

I have no doubt that there is a 13-year-old out there making this claim about the abortion and the toilet.  All the worse for her if she actually believes it, which would also not surprise me.

The kids in the McMartin preschool case were told so often by supposedly trustworthy adults that they had been molested that they started to genuinely believe it and all of the bizarre stories about killing zoo animals, being molested in hot air balloons, etc.  The adults basically manufactured horrible memories for these kids and manipulated them into believing them.

First they had massive amounts of therapy to “help” them with having been molested, and then 10 or so years later, the poor kids had to have even more massive amounts of therapy to help them cope with the fact that all of their horrible memories were, in fact, fake and fed to them by the adults who were supposed to protect them.

So, yes, I have no doubt that there is some poor woman out there who is absolutely convinced that she was forced to have an abortion over a toilet at 13, just as there are McMartin preschool victims who still aren’t quite sure which of their memories to believe and if they really saw their preschool teacher kill zoo animals in front of them.

Comment #20: Mnemosyne  on  06/14  at  01:31 PM

drachon, that story is obviously a lie.  I’m not surprised, of course, but reading it, I’m somewhat skeptical that the girl exists at all.  If she does, she’s fabricating this story to get attention from her fellow church-goers who’re obsessed with Dr. Tiller and she’s also trying to strike at her mother. But there’s so much horseshit all over that story, I’d believe that the girl involved—-who is not a human 12-year-old, in that she isn’t upset about being raped and wants to give birth so badly—-was totally made up.

Comment #21: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/14  at  01:36 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMC_70oYV8U
is the O’Reilly segment in question, I think.

It’s an awful segment, particularly O’Reilly’s condescension.

Comment #22: slg  on  06/14  at  01:43 PM

Amanda- I’m not arguing that it’s true.  Just that it sounds a lot like the one they are referring to.

There are quite a few on there that don’t sound at all real. But it was still fascinating.

Comment #23: drachonfire  on  06/14  at  01:44 PM

Add me to the list of someone who wouldn’t be here without abortion. Or hell, much forethought.

Before me, my mother had one or two abortions (mom told me about one, dad told me about one, they could be the same they could be different). I was conceived sometime within a year or two of this on a first attempt. They literally decided one night “hey, let’s have kids,” didn’t use protection once, and here I am.

Being that my parents aren’t exactly cut out to be parents, I’m certain that had my mother not aborted earlier or had I taken more than one attempt to conceive, I wouldn’t be here today. Does this mean that I “should” be opposed to birth control and abortion? Cuz yeah, this hasn’t given me any anxiety about my potential lack of existence.

I’m also involved in a local mom’s group that’s full of outspoken pro-lifers (and a few outspoken pro-choicers, like myself). These women have “watched” me suffer repeated miscarriages, and I can promise you that your average pro-lifer DOES NOT mourn the loss of an embryo. The most I got out of them was an “I’m sorry.” But if I had chosen to abort instead, I’d be villified and my embryo practically turned into a martyr. Hypocrisy much?

Comment #24: Ashley  on  06/14  at  01:49 PM

That girl on O’Really is lying too.  Sure- she’s one of the few freaks who didn’t have a placenta- good going girl.  And she has a whole laundry list of things issues she dealt with, drugs, promiscuity and eating disorders, but it’s all fixed by the time she’s 20.

Comment #25: drachonfire  on  06/14  at  01:57 PM

I’ve concluded that the mental health exception bothers people who don’t think women have minds that count.

Half this, I think, and half that they just don’t care what a woman might suffer, if they bother to acknowledge that suffering in the first place.  The “it’s all in your head” dismissal of depression and the like is pertinent here—-a reality of severe suicidal depression becomes just sadness to them, all the better for them to go “well, just be sad for a few more months, you shouldn’t kill your baby for your own selfish benefit!”  Acknowledging that women have actual, real, significant problems sometimes would be a death knell for their movement, because that would obligate them to provide a solution to compete with abortion, and if there’s one thing the anti-choice movement doesn’t do, it’s that.

Comment #26: Kyra  on  06/14  at  02:03 PM

Amanda- I’m not arguing that it’s true.  Just that it sounds a lot like the one they are referring to.

I’m sorry, I wasn’t trying to imply that.  I was just saying it sounds like pure bullshit.

Comment #27: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/14  at  02:44 PM

Wow, jumpinjim, your palatable hatred of women is frightening.  I hope that there’s court orders in place to keep you away from real live ones.

Comment #28: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/14  at  02:47 PM

The “it’s all in your head” dismissal of depression and the like is pertinent here—-a reality of severe suicidal depression becomes just sadness to them, all the better for them to go “well, just be sad for a few more months, you shouldn’t kill your baby for your own selfish benefit!”

The biggest problem with this is that it leads to Andrea Yeats. If she hadn’t had to suck it up and deal so she could have a forth child, the first three might be alive. And there is no situation on earth that would make me choose the well-being of any fetus over the well-being of my living, breathing, personality holding son.

I probably would have been willing to risk my life to carry my son to term. But now that I have him? If my next fetus presents any kind of risk to me I’ll abort. Because I have a child who loves me and depends on me and I’m pretty determined to be there for him.

Comment #29: Av0gadro  on  06/14  at  03:02 PM

Look, these ugly, slobbering birthers are basically looking for wanking material. Period.  The more they get their woodies over wimmens getting in trouble, the more the male ones feel manly and real, and they can forget how shittily they treat the women in their families.

I have no respect for Christians any more. Moderate ones do NOTHING to apologize for their more rabid brethren and sistren, and thus are covertly and tacitly approving the hate and bile and filth that spews forth from those who have perverted faith into hatred and murder.  Period.

Comment #30: dejah thoris  on  06/14  at  03:10 PM

I have a sister who’s married to a Pentacostal preacher. Years ago he sent the family a cc’d email about JK Rowlings sucking satan’s c*ck, and trying to corrupt our nations youth, etc. Being a Harry Potter fan, I didn’t think that was right and traced it down to the Onion. I then sent the fact it was a fake article onto the whole list he’d sent the original email to.

Did I get a thanks for correcting the misinformation? Nope. Instead, he was miffed I’d underminded him by contradicting him to the list of people he’d sent it to. No, instead I should have sent it to him privately. I don’t regret it, though. As much as I like the guy (and he and my sister are as christianist as the family gets), I don’t have a lot of confidence that he would have passed the truth along to the rest of the list like I did.

The more reasonable Christians in the family at least told me to stick with my common sense.

Comment #31: KMac  on  06/14  at  03:23 PM

From this story, it’s clear that they have zero problem with raping children and forcing them to bear children—-they just get upset when the children escape the forced childbirth.

The usual excuse I hear is “PLANNED PARENTHOOD IS ENABLING STATUTORY RAPE BECAUSE THEY LOVE RAPE!” Rather than, you know, allowing the woman to decide whether or not she wants to report and go through all that.

Comment #32: Rebecca  on  06/14  at  03:24 PM

Does dumfuckjim really think that O’Reilly’s show is a valid journalistic source?  BWAHAHAHAHA.

Put down the lead paint chips dude - your mommy’s calling you because the day program bus has arrived.

Comment #33: Ms Kate  on  06/14  at  03:43 PM

can’t articulate her vile belief clearly and distinctly for all to hear and pass a moral judgment on.

Explain, exactly, how it is any of your business or anybody’s business to pass a moral judgment on any pregnant woman and how she chooses to make decisions about her own body?

Let us know if you need any medical care, dude - we would like to pass judgment on you for not treating your body right, not being right with god.  Come on dude - you should be PUNISHED and JUDGED.

Comment #34: Ms Kate  on  06/14  at  03:48 PM

your palatable hatred of women is frightening

Do you mean “palpable” hatred?  Personally, there’s nothing about jij that I find palatable.

Comment #35: Seraph  on  06/14  at  04:00 PM

Dr. Dick, I think the increase in the craziness can be attributed at least in part to Hal Lindsey’s The Late Great Planet Earth in the 1970’s and the approach of the millennium.  I recall growing up in the Reagan years that the End Times were coming near.  These people want to bring on the Rapture because their lives are so boring, they need to believe they are going to be witness to the most important event in history.

Comment #36: Tommykey  on  06/14  at  04:02 PM

Of the 182 pregnancies terminated using a “partial birth abortion” procedure, none were done to “Prevent patient’s death”. All were done to “Prevent substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function” of the mother and the impairment cited was for “Mental” reasons exclusively.

I notice in those statistics from 2007 that in 119 cases, the physician stated that the fetus was not viable, but not a single one of the 9 possible reasons—including “Not Stated”—was cited.

I think we have a bit of an information gathering problem when the state can’t even figure out how to assign physician statements to “not stated” when the reason is not stated, don’t you think?

Comment #37: Mnemosyne  on  06/14  at  04:08 PM

I’m sitting at the out door mall yesterday, promoting info that a small segment of the Christian population might have a disagreement with, when two twenty-something girls ask me if they can get my opinion on “a verse.”

Bad enough if someone is forcing poetry on me during a nice Saturday afternoon, but I suspect correctly that their “verse” is going to be something from the Bible they want to beat me about the head with.

Sure enuf, written on notebook paper just for me, apparently, is the classic “The wages of sin are death.”

“What do you think of that?” asks one of the teens/twenties Christianists.

“I think you need to go away, that’s what I think,” I said.

“Thank you,” one says in triumph.

Got it? They could have had a polite discussion, or better still, gone on about their business—but no, they had to serve me with a (not so) coded death threat.

They start ‘em young with the hate speech, those so-called Christians and rightists.

Comment #38: judybrowni  on  06/14  at  04:09 PM

The “pass a moral judgement” thing JumpingGym brought up is really the nutshell version of this whole “Christian Right” problem, isn’t it? 

Sure, womb-control and wimmin-control are big deals, but ultimately it doesn’t stop there.  If abortion, birth control, and women’s equality were all made illegal, there’s still a whole list of things that they want control over, starting with your religion, what you wear, what you say, what you think, and going downhill from there.  And let us not forget they have whole categories of rules governing what you do with your genitals beyond just ending abortion and birth control.

H.L. Mencken famously defined Puritanism as “The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.”  But that doesn’t go near far enough. 

The plague of the modern religious nut / “conservative” is a pervasive and all-consuming fear that people are not conducting their lives “the way they are supposed to”.

They all need to be served a large, steaming portion of Butt the Hell Out and Mind Your Own Damn Business...

Comment #39: MikeEss  on  06/14  at  04:12 PM

“What do you think of that?” asks one of the teens/twenties Christianists.

Next time you might want to say something along the lines of, “I think I’m going to call Security and have you thrown out for threatening to kill me, that’s what I think.”

Of course, it’s easy for me to say that, because I don’t have to deal with them every week, and they’d probably come right back the next week with more people.  So never mind.

Comment #40: Mnemosyne  on  06/14  at  04:19 PM

What I love about the “we must eliminate the mental health loophole” anti-choicers is this:

If a woman is suicidally depressed and acts on it (or, possibly, even if she ‘only’ attempts suicide), guess what?  THE FETUS DIES TOO.  Presumably, they don’t have a problem with this because at least the depressed woman is punished for her “selfish” desire to have an abortion.  Or, they think such a woman should be locked in a psych ward until she goes into labor.  Or maybe they just don’t think beyond “OMG teh poor baybeez.”  I’m really not sure which it is.

Comment #41: Kirjava  on  06/14  at  04:22 PM

“What do you think of that?” asks one of the teens/twenties Christianists.

Next time you might want to say something along the lines of, “I think I’m going to call Security and have you thrown out for threatening to kill me, that’s what I think.”

Of course, it’s easy for me to say that, because I don’t have to deal with them every week, and they’d probably come right back the next week with more people.  So never mind.

My first thought was something along the lines of, “Before we continue the discussion of this verse, can you check your clothing labels for me?  Oh, cotton/poly blend, tisk tisk.  Now, what were you saying?”

Comment #42: rowmyboat  on  06/14  at  04:31 PM

Sure enuf, written on notebook paper just for me, apparently, is the classic “The wages of sin are death.”

“What do you think of that?” asks one of the teens/twenties Christianists.

“I think you need to go away, that’s what I think,” I said.

I think my response would have been “I’ve got to disagree - [insert Christianist leader or conservative politician here] is still alive, last I checked.” And thn possible what Mnemosyne said.

Comment #43: Rebecca  on  06/14  at  04:32 PM

I enjoyed the reference to the Satanism Scare In Rock Music nonsense.  I remember living in that period & some of the really juicy pronouncements made by the yahoos who peddled a lot of the paranoia that read like something used as a narrative for a Jack Chick tract: exposure to the Smurfs will turn your child into Charles Manson, backwards masking of Satanic ritual instructions in Heavy Metal music, there are subliminal messages in Ritz Crackers/the Proctor & Gamble logo that’ll turn you into a something like a Satanic Manchurian Candidate, the Rocky Horror Picture Show is actually a documentary, etc.

A great book on the subject of the Satanic Cult Conspiracy Scare was published in ‘93 by Open Court press titled Satanic Panic: the making of a contemporary legend.  In a nutshell, the author documented the craziness of the Satanic Cult horseshit & uncovered a tangible, concrete link between diminished economic status & the likelihood of belief in the SCCS.  The folks who believed in the SCCS ran the gauntlet of being in danger of losing their foothold in / were well on their way out from / were permanently shut out of the middle class standard of living thanks to the ravages of Reganomix.  Their lives were either shit or well in the process of turning into such & they were desperately casting about to fill the void left by the reality of their lives by looking for someone/something to blame, & what better scapegoat than an active network of malicious followers of an evil entity, a network that is as ubiquitous as it is invisible?  Something that the Bible Tent Snake-Oil types were only to happy to sell them on, the painful irony being that their “product” left their customers even more impoverished than before: economically, intellectually & spiritually.

I’m personally convinced that these same (dis)belief systems are quite alive & well, with their proponents & true believers working diligently to enforce their worldview on the rest of us, only now the signifiers have changed from “Satanist” to “Feminist” & “Satanic Conspiracy” to “Homosexual Agenda”.  We’re all after their precious little cherubs to kill/eat/fuck/convert, after all.

Comment #44: Smartpatrol  on  06/14  at  05:02 PM

I remember that “wages of sin” bullshit.  I believe my response, the last time I had to deal with it in my face was “Well, I work on salary so it doesn’t apply to me”.

Comment #45: Ms Kate  on  06/14  at  05:02 PM

People make these lies because there is a political economy involved in the social ramifications of language.  It’s why I really like the concept of haterade.  One party, such as slave-owners and their friends in the north needs public aquiescence for a public ill (slavery was a drag on wages, aside from morality issues).  You can think of Amway, or authortarian governments, or any number of other groups that anticipates a financial or social benefit.  So what they do is that they get a party involved, one who has social authority—religious groups tends to be the usual suspects, but other groups like doctors or economists or local party apparatus can be involved as well.  Slaveowners helped form the Southern Baptist Church because they needed the propaganda help, and southern baptists were cut off from missionary funding because they insisted on taking slaves, thus they needed other kinds of support.  With the help of that third party, the proles are “sold” a belief system in which they enjoy a higher status than other people they are familiar with.  Sometimes they are “sold” a belief system that is a deliberately precarious superiorty such that it is easy to threaten with ” xx cooties”.  Memes like the PG Satanist or some other chain email serves as a unit of haterade that reinforces a favorable socio-economic milieu in exchange for reassurance of superiority over someone they know.

As such, you can’t actually stop these activities by appealing to reality—you’re cheating them of what they wished to aquire!  They don’t stop until it’s too expensive to actually believe in their dreck.  When haterade is expensive.  When there is ridicule, not just of one, but of a whole culture, you can ensure that the kids won’t wish to follow the parent’s footsteps.  When the haterade is obviously complicit in the failing of the entire economy (or is destroyed by war) in visible ways, then haterade demand gets lowered.  The US didn’t end Jim Crow, for example, because it all of a sudden discovered righteousness.  It ended Jim Crow because the system created ludicrous expenses, embarrassing moments caught on tv, and raised the expense of geopoltical resource aquisitions.  More recently, Reagan Democrats are returning to the Democratic Party as little by little, they come to the realization that they personally *can’t* afford to care about abortion more than about economic issues. 

However, as soon as good times roll, there will be an explosion in bigotry and purity politics for sale!  Something for nothing is always the mark of achievement for the sellers of nothing!

People here would benefit from reading this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Social-Construction-Reality-Sociology-Knowledge/dp/0385058985/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1245009297&sr=1-1

It’s a very short book, and it’s very readable for a philosophical book.  It’s also rather deeply sarcastic as you get further in (and the dudes who wrote this in the 1960s would have very much found themselves in heaven with all the lesbo internet porn today).  The book pretty much sez what most of us already knows, but it does so in a highly organized fashion that helps me appreciate what I already know much better.

Comment #46: shah8  on  06/14  at  05:04 PM

Freddy Mercury had a role in the classic fantasy Good Omens.  It’s good to know why he’s the only musician bad angels were supposed to listen to…

Comment #47: shah8  on  06/14  at  05:15 PM

Just in case you thought those Kansas statistics were assembled by an unbiased source, note that “It is the professional judgment of the attending physician that there is a reasonable probability this pregnancy may be viable” is the sum total of reasons for declaring fetuses viable. And the reverse for declaring fetuses nonviable. It’s pretty clear that Tiller, or whoever was filling out the forms, was rightly convinced that the detailed questions about justification were an unwarranted and potentially dangerous invasion of patients’ privacy (given full details, it would be much easier to find out the names of patients) and filled out the forms accordingly.

Comment #48: paul  on  06/14  at  05:40 PM

So jumpingjim, if a woman suffers irreversible damage to her health, fertility because she can’t get a late-term abortion, you’re okay with that, because her life wasn’t threatened?

You are a sicko.

Comment #49: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/14  at  05:48 PM

Wow Amanda, I’m kind of surprised to see you taking a somewhat, shall we say, charitable stance in this thread.  If it were me, and I’m certainly not putting words in your mouth I would say the following.

Why do forced birthers buy into obvious bullshit?  Because that’s what those people do.  Put simply, they’re gullible, disingenuous people who *want* believe bullshit stories.  Their lives are populated with them.  Please allow me to offer some examples;

-Republicans care about you
-You should vote against the “death tax” because your last name might end in “walton” someday
-You can talk to and listen to god, just try it
-Prayer changes things

I’m sure you get the idea.  These forced birth people love to believe in bullshit because it makes their world a more easy to deal with place.  They don’t have to think, there is no nuance, there is just right and wrong.  If the image of laura schlessinger is zooming around in your head then I’ve made my point.

And to add one final thing, they’re also full of shit.  They love to go to church on Sunday morning where they drink grape juice because the whackaloon preacher thinks alcohol is bad then pile the family in the car to go Hooters for lunch.  They love to preach about how all women who are pregnant out of wedlock are sluts, unless it’s them, or their daughters.  Then it was just the devil.

These people are emotional and intellectual children who intentionally have not sought to critically look at their lives.  It’s easier not to and if ever there was a time when I might feel just a little sorry for them, it’s realizing that.  But in the end, they’re not content to let these ridiculous beliefs rule their own life, no, they need to control everyone’s life in the same manner theirs is.  And that why I have no sympathy for them.

Comment #50: ice weasel  on  06/14  at  05:50 PM

Part 2 of Slacktivist’s analysis of lying liars is here.

Huh.  Reminds me of something I read on Usenet a few years ago.  Someone pointed out that saying “I’m not as bad as Hitler” is pretty meaningless unless you’re the absolute dictator of a militarily significant nation with assorted groups that you could blame for everything and attempt genocide on.  There’s a difference between “I’m a good person” and “I’m a good person because I don’t have the material capacity to commit evil on a grand scale.”

Comment #51: KeithM  on  06/14  at  05:53 PM

Yes yes and amen to the point that the extreme Christian right does not take mental health issues seriously. They take the - mainstream, I might add - tendency to treat mental illnesses like character flaws and then make a giant leap down the rabbit hole into a world where you a) caused your mental illness by being sinful and b) don’t really have a mental illness, just a problem with demons. The mental illness is only taken seriously as a medical condition and a state worthy of compassion when there is political benefit in doing so (i.e. when you can claim a depression was caused by receiving an abortion).

Two stories -

I had a client at a transition house who was in her early 20s. She suffered from schizoaffective disorder and borderline personality disorder. This means she had problems with delusions/hallucinations, extreme moods, and unstable relationships. She also had a long history of suicide attempts. She was also a survivor of sexual abuse.

She got involved in a pentecostal church that taught her to believe she heard voices and had all of these other symptoms because she had been sexually promiscuous and this had made her vulnerable to demonic influences. As a very young adult recovering from childhood sexual abuse, she was extremely susceptible to this reasoning.

My attempts to discourage her from involvement with this group were met with resistance from my supervisor because she was (legitimately) concerned about religious freedoms and (less legitimately) pleased that under the influence of this group the client’s behavior had temporarily normalized, as she was trying to follow the rules in order to have a successful exorcism. Since this young woman had the bad fortune of being both female, sexually active, and mentally ill, she was someone that practically everyone wanted to control.

So what ended up happening? They did the exorcism, right, and ... shocker! ... the voices continued. Guess what she was told? If she had stopped sleeping with her boyfriend, the exorcism probably would have worked and she would have been cured. They were cruel to her because she was not going with the program and making them look good by pretending she was better after their intervention. Since they didn’t take her symptoms seriously in the first place, they didn’t have any compassion for her when they continued. They targeted her because they believed she was suggestible and controllable (her mental illness was seen as a sign of that), and when she didn’t play along they rejected her.

Two months later she successfully committed suicide. I can’t blame that act on this religious group, because she was already tending in that direction long before she met them. But they gave her a good strong shove in that direction, no doubt.

Second story -

I had a friend who was female, Asian-American, and disabled, so - once again - she landed in a bunch of categories that caused people around her to compulsively want to treat her like an infant and control her as much as possible. She became clinically depressed in college. The pentecostal group she was with held her body down and forced her to stay in the room while they performed an exorcism. Then they took her back to her dorm room and she sat on her bed crying and confused while they took every possession she had and declared them not “of God,” stuck them in a garbage bag, and carted them off to the dumpster (um, except for one valuable statuette from China that the associate pastor kept for herself). Among the things they threw away were a bunch of stuffed animals she had tacked up on her wall (because that meant they were being “crucified”) and a CD of Handel’s Messiah.

Treating mental illnesses as a sign of “woman who needs to be controlled” goes way back to the old notion of hysteria (wandering uterus! watch out!). These groups do not see mental illness as suffering. They see it as an opportunity.

I am usually more balanced in my assessment of religious groups, but this issue makes me furious.

Comment #52: Dymphna  on  06/14  at  06:46 PM

Personally I don’t have any problem with early term abortion. I support late term abortion to save the life of the mother. I don’t have a problem with a late term abortion up to and including the day of delivery for rape or incest. I don’t have a problem with late term abortion to terminate the life of a severely deformed fetus including Downs’s syndrome.

What I do have a problem with is a zealot who really believes a woman should have the right to terminate her pregnancy for ANY reason at ANY time and then goes on national TV and can’t articulate her vile belief clearly and distinctly for all to hear and pass a moral judgment on. Instead she out there spinning and dissembling to keep the truth of her zealous beliefs from being found out by the less ideological folks in the audience.

Then you’re one of the little fascists Amanda keeps referring to, attempting to control someone else’s reproductive system because of your own twisted values.

A fetus or a baby is not responsible for being a product of rape or incest.  If you really believed abortion was wrong because you wanted to save the babies, you wouldn’t make this exception. I could respect that, even if I disagreed.

But you don’t have a problem with late-term abortion because it kills babies.  Your problem with late-term abortion is that those damned dirty sluts are doing what they want with their own bodies, and that just bugs you.

If you want to control a vagina, go in for gender-reassignment surgery and get yourself one.  Otherwise, fuck off.

Comment #53: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/14  at  06:48 PM

Sure enuf, written on notebook paper just for me, apparently, is the classic “The wages of sin are death.”

“What do you think of that?” asks one of the teens/twenties Christianists.

“I think you need to go away, that’s what I think,” I said.

“Thank you,” one says in triumph

Print up your own tracts to distribute to busybodies. Matthew 7 is always a good start:

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. Mk. 4.24

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

Comment #54: Hector B.  on  06/14  at  07:11 PM

Matthew 6:

5: When thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6: But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Comment #55: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/14  at  07:25 PM

I’m afraid this gals probably consider themselves already de-beamed.

Comment #56: Dymphna  on  06/14  at  07:31 PM

*these

Comment #57: Dymphna  on  06/14  at  07:55 PM

So as long as we’re talking scripture, just what, beyond “thou shall not kill,” do fundie anti-abortion folks use to justify their ineradicable position? It all hinges on their unbiblical belief that anything from a fertilized egg on has every right as a full-fledged human being, I’ll bet. (And, OK, the real reason often has nothing to do with the reasons expressed to justify it, as Amanda clearly explains…)

A Jewish friend of mine said that, in his tradition, a fetus was not a person “until the head appears.” I’m not Jewish, and time and distance prevent me from asking him now just what the source of that assertion was (is it the Talmud? Or does it actually come from the Torah, and thus more or less part the same scripture as Christians claim to accept).

Comment #58: weirdnoise  on  06/14  at  08:32 PM

weirdnoise:

there’s some weird “thou knew me in my mother’s womb” stuff in one of the prophets, which the fundies take as incontrovertible evidence of embryonic ensoulment blh blah blah. But you gotta know it if wasn’t there they’d still find some reason.

What’s interesting is that all of this is, religiously speaking, fairly recent. Until the mid-19th century hardly any christian sect had any trouble with the idea.

Comment #59: paul  on  06/14  at  08:44 PM

Tommykey -

I actually blame Reagan and other Republican politicians who started pandering to them in the late 70s and early 80s (as an extension of the “Southern Strategy”).  That is when they really started getting excitable.  Prior to that they were largely politically apathetic, but subsequently got excited and had expectations that they could force their worldview on the country.  That empowerment, along with repeated disappointment that the Republicans really had no intention of enacting the laws they wanted, fueled the crazy.  Clearly Roe v. Wade laid some of the groundwork, but Reagan lit the fuse.

Comment #60: DrDick  on  06/14  at  08:48 PM

One thing slacktivist is great for is learning just how completely this brand of Christianity manages to invert the fundamental ethical imperatives of the gospels.

Comment #61: Dymphna  on  06/14  at  09:04 PM

I wonder if it isn’t possible that sexual frustration has driven them clean out of their minds?  I’ve never understood how anyone can deny their sexuality.  I just can’t believe that these right wing religious fanatics are getting off.  Sorry, I don’t buy it.  You can’t be that fucking obsessed with sex being sinful, and be getting off on it. 

I don’t know about anyone else, but I need orgasms.  What happens if you deny yourself sexual fulfillment for a long time?  How many of these people are stuck in unfulfilling marriages and also believe that masturbation is a mortal sin?  Jesus it’s a wonder they don’t spontaneously explode in Walmart or something.  I can definitely see going bug-fuck nuts.

Comment #62: Lady Vader  on  06/14  at  09:09 PM

Although I strongly suspect jumpinjim was arguing in bad faith given his sources, he does bring up a rather fundamental and often overlooked element in this late term abortion debate: should women be able to access abortion at any point in the pregnancy for any reason?  For instance, should women be able to abort in the third trimester without what the State deems a “compelling reason” (health, rape, etc.)? 

Personally, I do, as I think the woman’s right to autonomy trumps the ‘right’ of the fetus to use her body, even if removal would kill the fetus, but I think the issue is one that is often overlooked - perhaps due to not wanting to give ammunition to the the generally misogynistic anti-abortion movement.

Comment #63: Tim P.  on  06/14  at  09:19 PM

I am not so sure about those statistics mentioned above about “partial birth abortion.” 

According to Dr. Tiller’s website (which I read before he died and is no longer up or I would provide a link) his abortion method was basically to euthenize the fetus by injection, dilate the cervix slowly over a period of days, then deliver with the mother under twilight anesthesia.  The intact dilation and extraction (aka “partial birth”) it totally different and if Tiller did them, they were not his primary method.  I wonder if these statistics come from somewhere else, possibly a hospital in Kansas that does abortions but is less high profile.  I know that in my state, the one Planned Parenthood that does abortions goes up to 14 weeks and is picketed every day, but the hospital 2 miles away that does elective abortions up to 22 weeks doesn’t get bothered at all.  And if there is someone in my state (not particularly close to Kansas, BTW) who needs the procedure further on than that, they get sent to Tiller.  Or they used to.

Comment #64: GumbyAnne  on  06/14  at  09:33 PM

You can’t be that fucking obsessed with sex being sinful, and be getting off on it. 

I think they’d probably find it harder to get off if they didn’t think sex were sinful. If they have to justify it to themselves while vertical, they probably decide it’s one of those things that’s good for them, because they’re one of the good people, but not good for the rest of undeserving humanity.

Comment #65: junk science  on  06/14  at  09:35 PM

I notice jumpinjim hasn’t come back. It’s probably because he got what he needed writing his first message and how he’s off having a ciggie and washing his right hand off (and cleaning the monitor).  Seen his ugly, woman-hating type so many times it’s not funny.

Comment #66: dejah thoris  on  06/14  at  09:48 PM

My little sister, who’s gone over to the dark side, has been bringing us all sorts of fantasies.  Her latest is that the birth control pill will kill you, KILL YOU DEAD.  You see, she knows a friend who knows a friend whose daughter took the birth control pill and within a week she was dead from a stroke.  Dropped dead just like that. 

Also, did you know, before the invention of the pill there was no such thing as ovarian cancer, uterine cancer, etc.?  Right around the time the pill was introduced, the occurrences of all these types of cancers skyrocketed.  Of course, the drug companies and the government are hiding this data. 

Funny how this ties in neatly with controlling women’s bodies.

Comment #67: Foxling  on  06/14  at  09:51 PM

there’s some weird “thou knew me in my mother’s womb” stuff in one of the prophets, which the fundies take as incontrovertible evidence of embryonic ensoulment blh blah blah. But you gotta know it if wasn’t there they’d still find some reason.

Which shows that the fundies twist scripture.

Jeremiah 1

  1 The words of Jeremiah the son of Hilkiah, of the priests that were in aAnathoth in the land of Benjamin:
  2 To whom the word of the Lord came in the days of Josiah the son of Amon king of Judah, in the thirteenth ayear of his reign.
  3 It came also in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the end of the eleventh year of Zedekiah the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the acarrying away of Jerusalem captive in the fifth month.
  4 Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
  5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

In context, this is talking about J. being sanctified as part of God’s design.  If you wanna use it as an anti-abortion comment, you’ll note it says “BEFORE” - this argument inevitably leads to the Catholic Church’s position of not thwarting God’s plan with contraception.  Feel free to point this out to fundies.

Your best bet is to point out the “before” bit.  It does NOT say that he knew J. in the womb - it says he knew J. BEFORE he was formed in the womb.  It just says he also sanctified him while swimming around there.

If a Fundie comes up with this, feel free to take them to the cleaners.

Comment #68: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/14  at  10:00 PM

I’m not even going to pretend one way or another about the validity of the story-this one could be true, but there are two on that site that are obviously made up.

drachonfire on 06/14 at 11:58 AM

This one is faked, too IMO- the syntax seems to be the result of a committee.  Notice how some terms are biologically appropriate while others are childlike euphemisms.  Verb tenses and use switchs according to no rules or pattern.  Neither southern English, Spanglish or Ebonics account for it. 

Any linguists out there for a second opinion?

Comment #69: phylosopher  on  06/14  at  10:27 PM

is the O’Reilly segment in question, I think.

It’s an awful segment, particularly O’Reilly’s condescension.

slg on 06/14 at 12:43 PM

She’s also is self-contradictory - a counseling session, but then, no one ever told us what wa sgoign to happen?  Huh?  Which was it?

Comment #70: phylosopher  on  06/14  at  10:36 PM

Wasn’t this already made into a play by Arthur Miller? Religious zealots, girls making shit up to be the center of attention and actually have control over their situation for once in their life, people getting killed over imaginary devil worship…?

Comment #71: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/14  at  10:50 PM

Tim P, Roe V. Wade determined the limits of abortion: up to the point of viability, which at the time was determined to be 28 weeks.  Now that preemies are routinely saved down to 23 or 24 weeks, perhaps that has changed for some, but the idea was that viability outside of the womb is the limit. 

Which makes sense - beyond that point, extreme circumstances such as complications of pregnancy, non-viability due to congenital defects, fetal demise in utero, etc. would indicate that a child could be born live and kept alive and that a mother not intending to raise a child could pursue other options.  Otherwise, a fetus or embryo that is not able to live or be kept alive independent of its mother is not considered to be legally alive.

Of course the reality is that women who carry pregnancies to such a late time generally do want to have and raise a child - but extreme situations intervene.

Comment #72: Ms Kate  on  06/14  at  10:59 PM

I wonder if it isn’t possible that sexual frustration has driven them clean out of their minds?  I’ve never understood how anyone can deny their sexuality.  I just can’t believe that these right wing religious fanatics are getting off.  Sorry, I don’t buy it.  You can’t be that fucking obsessed with sex being sinful, and be getting off on it. ....

Caton on 06/14 at 08:09 PM

Uhm, I think the Victorians went pretty far down that path.

Comment #73: phylosopher  on  06/14  at  11:35 PM

She’s also is self-contradictory - a counseling session, but then, no one ever told us what wa sgoign to happen?  Huh?  Which was it?

phylosopher on 06/14 at 09:36 PM

Ugh! should have read : She is also self-contradictory - she claims there was a group counseling session, but then also claims that “no one ever told us what was going to happen.”  Sorry for the typo assault.

Comment #74: phylosopher  on  06/14  at  11:40 PM

Your best bet is to point out the “before” bit.  It does NOT say that he knew J. in the womb - it says he knew J. BEFORE he was formed in the womb.  It just says he also sanctified him while swimming around there.

Also - and this is what I usually use - the whole point of that passage is that Jeremiah is SPECIAL. That he’s DIFFERENT from all those other people that God didn’t know before they were born. (The other similar passage that gets cited is in Psalms, and Psalms is all figurative.)

Although I strongly suspect jumpinjim was arguing in bad faith given his sources, he does bring up a rather fundamental and often overlooked element in this late term abortion debate: should women be able to access abortion at any point in the pregnancy for any reason?  For instance, should women be able to abort in the third trimester without what the State deems a “compelling reason” (health, rape, etc.)?

Personally, I do, as I think the woman’s right to autonomy trumps the ‘right’ of the fetus to use her body, even if removal would kill the fetus, but I think the issue is one that is often overlooked - perhaps due to not wanting to give ammunition to the the generally misogynistic anti-abortion movement.

Also because, y’know, women don’t actually have abortions at nine months just because they feel like it. That, Tim, is a lie that the anti-choice movement has fed you.

Comment #75: Rebecca  on  06/15  at  12:06 AM

Ms. Kate’s right, Tim.  By the time a woman gets to the third trimester, she’s pretty much made up her mind to give birth—unless her own life is in jeopardy or the fetus has severe defects.  There are a few cases where a woman wants a late abortion because she didn’t recognize her condition, but those are one in a million cases—like the nine year girl raped by her father, who had to go to Dr. Tiller because she hadn’t realized she was pregnant.  Setting up a board to decide which woman “gets to have” a late abortion just plays into the stereotype of the dumb, frivolous woman, who needs male guidance to stop her from aborting at 28 weeks so she can fit into her prom dress.

Besides, how would such a board even operate?  “You, Missy, can have an abortion because your dad and I play golf together, but you, stranger, don’t get one because I don’t like your end of town.  You, pal, can have an abortion if you were raped by your father, but not if you were raped by your boyfriend.  You, doll, can have an abortion if your badly deformed fetus will live in agony for three years, but not if it will live in agony for only two years. Etc., etc, etc.”

Comment #76: Blue Jean  on  06/15  at  12:06 AM

Silly jim, it may be attached to her body and have different genes, but so does an ovary.

Try again. 

You liver is attached to your body - why can’t we just take part of it by force if somebody else needs it to live?  That is a more compelling argument than a fetus commandeering a mother’s body to live.

The law is clear: if it can’t live outside the mother, it is the mother’s choice.  Period.  The only reason you have a problem with that is that nobody asked your personal permission or opinion.

Comment #77: Ms Kate  on  06/15  at  12:20 AM

Note that all 182 of the late term abortions performed in Kansas in 1999 requiring “partial birth procedures” were approved for mental impairment of the mother. None for physical impairment.

I wonder if the data was collected oddly and that means mental impairment was the reason for specifically choosing “partial birth” instead of another late term option. My understanding is that there are some cases where a doctor views “partial birth” as physically safe for the mother, but more often it was chosen so that the mother would have a recognizable fetus to hold and say goodbye to. Again, most mother’s aborting late term wanted their fetus, and need to mourn. Choosing the method that gives an intact fetus protects the mother’s mental health.

Comment #78: Av0gadro  on  06/15  at  12:27 AM

“Mike, I’d like to have a dialog with you, but I can’t actually make out what you’re saying. Too much spittle flying out of your mouth. Relax bud.”

...so, you’re admitting that you can’t really understand things written in the King’s English if they aren’t predigested wingnut talking points.

Sad…

Comment #79: MikeEss  on  06/15  at  12:35 AM

The rapist sacrificed the right to life of his fetus the moment he committed the act.

Funny how jim calls the rapists’ fetus “his fetus”, even though it’s not lodged in the rapists’ body.  The rapist may have no idea the fetus even exists, but it’s still “his fetus”.  The woman gets no say in the matter, any more than my garage gets to decide what kind of car I can park in it.  However, if the guy commits something as heinous as rape, then he “forfeits the right to life of his fetus”, which is big of Jim.
Just like if I stole a car, then I’d forfeit the right to park it in my garage.  Again, the garage gets no say in it.

Oh, wait, the police would still have to present a search warrant before they could look in my garage, so I’d still have a right until the law decided I didn’t.  The woman gets no right until Jim (or somebody else) says she does.  So a car thief would still have more rights than a rape victim. 

Thanks, Jim, but I’d rather live in reality than in your little utopia.

Comment #80: Blue Jean  on  06/15  at  12:36 AM

What these assholes don’t realize is that if they hadn’t placed so many roadblocks before women seeking abortions, women would be having them in the first trimester. Oops. Logic fail, assholes. Their actions reveal their true intent.

Isn’t the head of Johns Hopkins that JJ keeps citing so feverishly a total conservative asshole who’s been gutting departments right and left to conform to his hateful agenda? YEah, that guy.

Comment #81: ginmar  on  06/15  at  12:59 AM

You sound like a little child saying to its father “You hate me, you hate me” because he won’t give you want you want.

I can tell you’ve never been around children if you think that’s how they talk.  You sound like the Left Behind guys trying to guess how non-fundies speak to each other.

Comment #82: Mnemosyne  on  06/15  at  01:03 AM

Again I refer you to page 11 of http://www.kdheks.gov/hci/abortion_sum/99itop1.pdf

And we’re supposed to assume that statistics from a report that was done 10 years ago are still valid today ... why, again?

Comment #83: Mnemosyne  on  06/15  at  01:05 AM

Whatev, asshole. He’s still an asshole and you’re citing him.

Comment #84: ginmar  on  06/15  at  01:15 AM

*should not engage troll*

Silly…the fetus is attached to her body, but is not her body. Different DNA, blood type, etc. And I bet you knew that all along and were just testing me.

Are you suggesting that she should not have the right to have a foreign entity removed from her body, as one might have the right to remove a tumour or parasite?

You’re right; I don’t have a problem killing the fetuses resulting from rape or incest. I’m in favor of the death penalty too. I don’t think killing is necessarily wrong, but it shouldn’t be done without an extraordinarily good reason that a majority of society finds justifiable. Various reasons like self defense, war, capital punishment, etc are valid reasons to kill. The rapist sacrificed the right to life of his fetus the moment he committed the act.
Allowing women the extraordinary right to kill their fetuses at any time for any reason is to a majority of Americans an unjustifiable abomination.

So the father has the right to sacrifice the life of “his” fetus, but the mother doesn’t?

Comment #85: Rebecca  on  06/15  at  01:15 AM

I’m trying to figure how you concluded this. When I said: “I don’t have a problem killing the fetuses resulting from rape or incest.” I didn’t mean me personally. I meant an abortion doctor.

You may have noticed that I directly quoted you. You said, “The rapist sacrificed the right to life of his fetus the moment he committed the act.”

If the rapist can act as a proxy for the fetus - if he can remove the “right” of a fetus not to be aborted* - why can’t the mother, who hasn’t committed a serious crime?

*I hate this usage

Comment #86: Rebecca  on  06/15  at  01:35 AM

Should I even bother with this? It’s not like he’s listening.

Comment #87: ginmar  on  06/15  at  01:58 AM

The whole satanism being in vogue in the 80’s strangely enough came up this weekend while listening to a panel discuss the “secrets” of TSR from people who worked there.
It was about the movie ET, the scene where the kids are playing D&D;, Spielburg’s people came to Gary Gygax and asked them if they could put it in the movie and Gary, being beaten about the head already by the xianists backed away from what could have been a great marketing opportunity for them.
It’s a fake version of D&D;that they used in the movie and a sad story really for something that’s a creative endeavour and a GAME.

Comment #88: Danica Lefse Queen  on  06/15  at  02:00 AM

jumpinjim,

Despite the fact that there’s no evidence that 1) the 182 cases from 1999 were Dr. Tiller’s, 2) the case-reports reviewed by Dr. McHugh were those of the 182 cases in 1999, let’s play.

For the 182 cases, the diagnosis of continuing the pregnancy will constitute a substantial and irreversible impairment of the patient’s mental function was reached by A) the patient’s attending physician AND B) a second, consulting physician (18b, p11).

Dr. McHugh, former AG Phil “the patient chart thief” Kline’s hired gun*, never examined any patients; he was given some case-reports to review and has never stated his opinion in a professional (medical or legal) setting.

So, since the stats and Dr. McHugh are not relevant to your point it’s unclear why you brought them up.

Your personal belief that the diagnosis of attending physicians is invalid when, and only when, it has to do with impairment of the patient’s mental function is not supported by data. Also, your irritation with people whose position is that a woman should have the right to terminate her pregnancy for ANY reason at ANY time is dully noted.

*I use that characterization after having evaluated what he had to say (in the linked clip) against the professional standard, and taking into account his questionable history as an expert witness for Berendzen in his obscene/pedophile telephone calls case, and his role as chief behavioral scientist for the Catholic bishops’ clergy sex crimes review board (“Strange bedfellows” article)  despite the problems noted in the “Doctor Skirts Reporting Law On Sex Crimes: Attorney general challenges policy of Hopkins clinic” article.

Comment #89: ema  on  06/15  at  02:00 AM

In 2008 that number falls to 192. Looks like things are moving in the right direction.

Yes, because medical science can detect fetuses with fatal birth defects earlier than ever before, so women whose fetus has a trisomy disorder or other major birth defects can abort before 22 weeks. 

I agree that things are moving in the right direction now that women can abort these doomed pregnancies before they get to the point where ending the pregnancy becomes dangerous for the woman.

Comment #90: Mnemosyne  on  06/15  at  02:11 AM

Wow.  You can try to tap dance around it all you want, jumpinjim, but these are your words:

The rapist sacrificed the right to life of his fetus the moment he committed the act.

And then you immediately followed it up with the oh-so-original idea that women shouldn’t be able to get abortions for just any reason, as though we women are silly creatures who rush off to get abortions because we don’t want to mess up our figures, or whatever people like you think our reasons are. 

The problem with taking the stance that you don’t want abortion for those dirty, immoral sluts who just want to get away with having sex, is that your stance tends to run into real life.  The college student whose condom broke, can she get one?  The woman exiting an abusive relationship, can she get one?  If the father of a family with three kids loses his job, and his wife wants an abortion because they cannot afford to feed a fourth kid, is she worthy enough?  Or how about the woman who claims to have been raped at a party, but charges are never placed against her rapist, because it was all “he said / she said”?  Can she still get one?

And who the hell gets to decide who is and is not worthy of getting an abortion, who is or is not lying in order to end an unwanted pregnancy?  You?  Hospital boards?  The Oracle at Delphi?

Or how about this:  When you’re carrying an unplanned pregnancy, you can make your very own choices about what to do in your particular, personal circumstances about your very own body.

(I know, I know, feeding the troll is bad.)

Comment #91: Karinna A.  on  06/15  at  02:13 AM

hey, Jim;

were you the attending doctor at *any* of these abortions?
if you are A) not a doctor who works in this field and B) not the DOCTOR WHO WAS THERE you have NO capacity to actually JUDGE what was going on.
period.

a different doctor coming in after the fact and reading patient files that have been kept vague DELIBERATELY to protect the patients? isn’t going to have much luck coming up with any sort of diagnosis. a person who is *NOT* a doctor practising in this field? needs to shut the fuck up and let the specialists do their jobs.

let be honest here - even ASSUME that Dr. Tiller charged EVERY patien $6,000. assume that he had 100 patients a month, on averge, and/or (for ease of math) 1,000 patients a month. so he makes, BEFORE ANY EXPENSES, 6 million a year.
he doesn’t get most of that 6 million.
first off, a quarter (being generous, it was probably *more*) goes to taxes.
so he has 4.5 million dollars.
he has employees.
lets say he has 10 nurses; each nurse is PAID BY TILLER $50,000
now he has 4 million dollars.
lets say he has 20 administrative peoples; each PAID BY TILLER 25,000
now he has 3.5 million dollars.
lets say he also 20 people of other functions - janitors, etc, each PAID BY TILLER 25,000
now he has 3 million dollars.
now he has fees, supplies that he has to buy, and let us be miserly and assume that this only costs him a million dollars for supplies and etc.
now he has 2 million dollars.
then he has whatever it costs for rent/mortage, utilities, things breaking, local fees and taxes. again, lets be miserly and assume that this is *only* a million dollars
now he has 1 million dollars.
and that one million dollars is now subject to personal income tax, on TOP of the corporate tax he already paid.
so now he has, let us say, 650,000.
and then he had to pay for personal security; he had to have bodyguards. which aren’t cheap. being *really* miserly, let us assume that they cost only $500,000 a year.
which means he made $150,000

which, yeah, aint too shabby. 

but also, not worth the being shot multiple times, being shot *at* even more often, stalked, harrassed, threatened, bombed, etc.

man was a fucking hero - he went to work EVERYDAY, with specific personal DEATH THREATS levened against him on a regular basis - death threats he had every reason to assume were credible - and helped women that no one else could/would. shut up already.

Comment #92: denelian  on  06/15  at  02:43 AM

Here’s what we do, folks: Next time someone has a pregnancy she wants to end, we track down Jim, knock him out, pump him full of hormones, surgically transplant the pregnancy to his sorry ass—and after that, he can do what he wants.

Until then—shut up, Jim.

Comment #93: Molly, NYC  on  06/15  at  03:14 AM

denelian,

Dr. Tiller estimated that he performed 250 to 300 late-term abortions in 2003, so it’s ~300/year, not 1,000.

And regarding the main post. Since I wasn’t present at the time and I don’t have access to the patient’s chart, the only way to try to verify her story is to evaluate what she had to say. So, yes, I listened to the interview clip (oh, the things I do for you people!).

My analysis: Listen to what she actually says (emphasis and transcript mine):

...they put you in a wheelchair and wheel you out to another room and in this other room umm there’s basically a toilet and they told me to sit on the toilet, lean on the nurse and push, push my baby into a toilet umm and after that they wheel you into another room to umm remove all the, you know, afterbirth….

She never claims that there was an actual toilet in the room or that she was told to sit on one.

Her claim is that she saw, and was asked to use, some type of unfamiliar medical equipment (a catch basin, most likely) which to her looked basically like a toilet.

Now, I don’t know if she came up with the “looks like a toilet” on her own, but it’s a reasonable scenario. What is unreasonable is for responsible adults <cough>O’Reilly<cough> to claim/believe the claim of a toilet medical procedure protocol.

Comment #94: ema  on  06/15  at  03:39 AM

Jim is not listening and clearly not participating in this discussion in good faith. I do I want to correct some faulty assumptions about psychiatric disorders that he’s infusing into this debate, but I’m not trying to engage in a dialogue with him.

If you believe it is unlikely for there to be 182 women seeking late term abortions in a given year in the state of Kansas due to a compelling mental disorder, you are woefully ignorant about a) the prevalence and severity of mental disorders in the general population, b) the geographical areas from which patients came to Kansas for these rare procedures, and c) the barriers to accessing timely pre-natal care that exist for individuals with serious mental illnesses. These may include financial barriers and barriers caused by common symptoms such as somatic disassociation, sensory dulling, and cognitive disorganization that can make it difficult for a woman to identify that she is pregnant or to figure out what to do about it once she has identified the pregnancy. In many cases, depending on what medication the person is taking, by the time she has identified that a pregnancy exists, the fetus has already spent months being exposed to highly dangerous chemicals.

And it is absolutely the case that undergoing an unwanted live birth can be an extremely traumatic experience both physically and psychologically for these women, one that can most certainly result in worsening of a psychiatric condition. If you do not understand psychiatric conditions, that might sound like something to pooh-pooh. If you have any decent understanding of the effect that a significant depressive episode or psychotic break can have on future brain functioning, you understand why it is compelling to prevent that when there exists significant risk.

Also, if you trust a psychiatrist who makes general pronouncements about these cases on the basis of reviewing files, you do not have a good understanding of the wide range of personalities, ethical standards, and political biases that exist in the field. As a general rule, one does not make psychiatric diagnoses on the basis of case files, nor can one in good faith attempt to confirm the absence of serious risk of mental disorder on that basis. That there exists a psychiatrist with impressive-sounding credentials who would presume to do so does not surprise me in the least, but it is not good practice. Moreover, it is not ethical to base any medical policy on a) a single study or b) studies that are so unscientific in construction and execution.

This is the problem when people who have no medical training or expertise attempt to legislate the details of a medical procedure.

On an anecdotal note, I’ve known a few people who were pregnant while severely depressed and one who was pregnant while floridly psychotic. The ethical complications involved in pre-natal care when the mother has severely impaired ability to make rational decisions and act on those choices are substantial, especially when it comes to the issue of whether or not to continue a pregnancy. This is triply the case because of the risks of post-partum depression and post-partum psychosis that can further complicate treatment for people who are already struggling.

It drives me nuts when folks with no training and little or no practical experience with mental illnesses presume that they ought to know enough about it just by, I don’t know, intuition or something that they don’t need to bother looking at more than one flimsy study and certainly shouldn’t need to be able to scrutinize scientific methods. Ugg.

And before Jim jumps in claiming to be a psychologist or psychiatrist or something—that wouldn’t make his evidence more credible, it would just make his ignorance and callousness about mental disorders that much more stunning. There are some monumentally awful people in my profession, as there are in any profession.

Comment #95: Dymphna  on  06/15  at  04:16 AM

Danelian, I think you left out the cost of malpractice insurance.

Comment #96: Dymphna  on  06/15  at  04:20 AM

I said in a post at 11:49 PM that: “And I’m saying the woman (the victim) can do anything (be allowed legally) she wants to it (keep or abort the fetus) up to and including the day of delivery.”

I see. And she has this right if it’s rape or incest, because then she’s a victim, but not if it’s due to normal sex, because then she’s just a slut, right?

Comment #97: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/15  at  05:16 AM

You sound like a little child saying to its father “You hate me, you hate me” because he won’t give you want you want.

jumpinjim on 06/14 at 11:14 PM


Jeez, Amanda, if you would just hush up and let yer ‘father’ decide this stuff for you things would be fine. Duh. That’s the problem right there: naughty girls who refuse to listen to Daddy.

I like that it’s both Freudian, and a Freudian slip. Funny shit, man.

Comment #98: mir  on  06/15  at  05:34 AM

Latts, I have a similar story except I’m the parent. I had a much wanted pregnancy go horribly wrong and my son was born at 7 months and died 30 minutes later. I went on to have a beautiful, healthy little boy a year later- a little boy who would not have been here if I decided to carry to term the baby that was going to die anyway because I got pregnant about 4 weeks after my original due date. Sure, had you told me before my first son died I could pick him or a potential fetus I would’ve chosen him. Today, could I give up my living son to go back in time and make everything ok with my first son? Not in a million years. It’s a sucky position, but life sucks and sometimes you have to make hard choices. That’s what the anti-choicers don’t seem to get- that sometimes there is no perfect answer, but there is the one that works best at that time. Although according to anti-choicers my second son is less important than my first one, because I never had to question whether or not to terminate my pregnancy with him- it went beautifully. No, what I should’ve done is spend another 3 months carrying a doomed child to term for no apparent reason. They make no goddamned sense.

Comment #99: Julie  on  06/15  at  08:32 AM

Shorter JimTroll: But nobody asked me about any of these abortions, and I didn’t approve them personally!  No fair!

Call us when you need medical help, him.  I’m sure we could pull lots of bullshit moralistic reasons and scurrilous exceptions out of our asses too - like, lots of reasons that HPV-related anal tumor, which is genetically distinct from you, cannot morally be removed unless you were raped.

Comment #100: Ms Kate  on  06/15  at  08:49 AM

“And I’m saying the woman (the victim) can do anything (be allowed legally) she wants to it (keep or abort the fetus) up to and including the day of delivery.”

...except where she wasn’t raped.

Comment #101: Rebecca  on  06/15  at  09:28 AM

I’m glad people are arguing with jim, but his arguments come down to “Fuck women, they’re not people anyway,” so I can’t really muster the energy. Bigotry doesn’t really respond to reason.

Comment #102: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/15  at  10:11 AM

You sound like a little child saying to its father “You hate me, you hate me” because he won’t give you want you want.

Others have already pointed out how revealing it is that you compared grown women to whiny, unreasonable children refusing to accept the guidance of their “father”.

Me, I just want to note that if what you’re denying the child is medical care, on the grounds that they probably won’t die if they don’t receive it, the child in question actually has a point.

Comment #103: Seraph  on  06/15  at  10:13 AM

I’ve got five. But they weren’t spoiled brats so I agree I never did hear them say “You hate me, you hate me”. But I DID hear it from another child which is where I got the idea.

And they’re all well-adjusted, perfectly-behaved, agree with you on every detail of everything, and are paragons of achievement in at least one field of endeavor, probably several.  Because they were raised right, not like us weak, permissive liberals raise our children (and/or were raised ourselves).  Wingnut dads always give the same spiel.

Careful, JiJ, one of them might actually move somewhere where they encounter philosophies that disagree with yours, and find that they prefer them.  Then what will you do?

Comment #104: Seraph  on  06/15  at  10:26 AM

Dymphna,

If you have the fortitude, try watching Dr. McHugh’s infomercial. At one point he says, and I paraphrase: “Pregnancy and the post-partum period have a protective effect against suicide, so, you know…he, he.” As a rule, I tend to stick to my own specialty when it comes to critique, but wow, just wow! What a sad state of affairs we have when real women’s medical care is at the mercy of people like Dr. McHugh.

Comment #105: ema  on  06/15  at  12:18 PM

After having read As Nature Made Him, I wouldn’t trust a Johns Hopkins psychiatrist to get my Starbucks order right, much less make any kind of accurate psychiatric diagnosis.

Comment #106: Mnemosyne  on  06/15  at  12:31 PM

Ah, Paul McHugh, Bill O’Reilly’s go-to guy for anti-abortion quotes.

Comment #107: ginmar  on  06/15  at  01:24 PM

I think the reason some people are so opposed to mental health exceptions isn’t just because they think women have no minds (which they certainly do think), but rather that they simply don’t take mental health issues seriously.  It’s not just Scientologists who deny psychology; it’s pervasive throughout our culture, especially among evangelicals who think that you can get over any mental health problem through prayer.  It’s often seen as weak to get treatment for mental disease, rather than just sucking it up and getting over it.  Also consider the fact that suicide is considered a sin according to many religions.  So their best treatment for depression is to make you feel like even more of a failure or sinner for even thinking about suicide.  It’s also really common for conservatives to have this attitude that it’s selfish for women to care about their own health, especially mental health (but they’re also supposed to sacrifice physical health too).

Basically, people like jumpinjim think, “why are you worrying about your mental health while I’m over here waiting for you to make my babies and cook my dinner!  Stop being so selfish.  Your health is nothing compared to my comfort and wishes.”  Part of it probably stems from the experience of his mother coddling him too much as a baby, so he has come to see women as completely servile.  When women do anything that prevents them from fulfilling their duty to serve jumpinjim, they’re just being selfish because he counts so much more than they do.

Comment #108: bananacat  on  06/15  at  01:38 PM

Should a woman have the right to terminate her pregnancy at any time for any reason?

This is an irrelevant question.  A more important question is, should a woman be allowed to terminate her pregnancy for her own health, including mental health?  I know it’s hard for wingnuts to understand that the world isn’t black-and-white, all-or-nothing, but giving a woman a right to her own health is not the same as allowing a woman to have an abortion at any time, for any reason.  Please try to follow along and stay on topic.

Comment #109: bananacat  on  06/15  at  02:25 PM

Tim P already answered your question jumpinjim and said “Yes.” 

I will too.  Yes.  I believe a woman, any pregnant woman has a right to terminate a pregnancy at any time she chooses for any reason of her own choosing. 

I understand that makes me pretty radical and absolutist, and far more radical than the current law which places heavy restrictions on women’s rights to a safe and legal abortion after 22/24 weeks of pregnancy.

But then, given the legions of “pro-life,” pro-death penalty, pro war types out there, I don’t feel that the pro choice movement and pro choice activists should feel bound by some idiotic (and mostly imaginary) standard for internal consistency as held up by you. The forced birther movement is full of inconsistent thinkers, unless of course you recognize, as Amanda routinely and constantly points out, isn’t about life, and it isn’t about birth or babies, it is about womb/woman control.  As you don’t seem to be willing to concede that this is your issue (despite language which indicates that it is, in fact, your central concern), why would you expect, or rather, demand that people respond to you?  You don’t have anything to contribute to the conversation - you seem to be simply looking for validation of your idea that some of us - like me - put the rights of a living, breathing woman ahead of the occupant of her womb right up until the day that child is out and breathing.  Well. Yes.  Some of us do think that.  So?  Now what are going to do?  Hold your internet breath until you turn internet blue? Retreat in triumph that some people acknowledged - AGAIN - holding an opinion that has been stated clearly many times before?  Lame, dude.

Comment #110: nell  on  06/15  at  02:32 PM

Should a woman have the right to terminate her pregnancy at any time for any reason?

Hell, yes.

Comment #111: Molly, NYC  on  06/15  at  02:41 PM

I think the woman’s right to autonomy trumps the ‘right’ of the fetus to use her body, even if removal would kill the fetus, but I think the issue is one that is often overlooked - perhaps due to not wanting to give ammunition to the the generally misogynistic anti-abortion movement.

I think that this is absolutely true.  If the state does not force people to make marrow or kidney donations to save the lives of already-born relatives—and it does not—then it has no business forcing women to lend their organs to children against their will.

The problem is that a) people confuse law and morality and b) misogyny is really strong in this area.  People assume that if you say something should be legal that means you think it’s good, and they also assume that women are stupid and capricious and would enter into an excruciating multi-day surgical procedure in the same spirit they’d enter into, say, a manicure.

Given the extraordinarily small number of women to whom this question (elective late-term abortions) even applies, I’m not sure it’s much more than an intellectual wank.

Comment #112: killjoy  on  06/15  at  02:55 PM

Should a woman have the right to terminate her pregnancy at any time for any reason?

Yes.  Next question?

Comment #113: Karinna A.  on  06/15  at  02:59 PM

All of this, of course, ignores the entire body of case law regarding viability.

If an infant can live and breathe outside of mom, it is considered to be viable.  If it cannot, it is nonviable.

Current law establishes viability in different ways and places, somewhere between about 24 and 28 weeks.  That means that IF the mother’s health can be preserved by induction or c-section, what you get is a premature baby after that point, not an abortion.  However, a non-viable fetal anomaly counts as non-viable, and an abortion is performed if a woman chooses not to carry to term.  Ditto in the case of runaway medical issues like ecclampsia, where the mother will die from labor or c-section.

In Massachusetts, that means a woman who needs to terminate past a certain point in pregnancy has to have contact with the judicial system if it is not an outright emergency, and the situation needs review if it was an emergency.  I know this because I have gone with somebody who terminated a fetus with no brain and poorly formed and open spine. 

I don’t think the post-viability restriction is unreasonable.  Pre-viability restrictions are unacceptable.

Comment #114: Ms Kate  on  06/15  at  04:08 PM

Gosh jumpinjim, I checked out those statistics, and they really don’t say what you think they do. What about all of the non-viable (ie, dead or horribly deformed) fetuses that were aborted? Should the mother be forced to carry them to term? And they don’t say that the major and irreversible impairment to the woman is a mental impairment. Where do you get that little tidbit? From a biased source that writes for conservative mags more often than actual medical journals? A man who, incidentally, admits that he covered up instances of child rape while working at Johns Hopkins Sexual Disorders Clinic, even though he was legally required to report them? I guess he only cares about patient privacy when the patients are men, huh? I wonder how many of those raped and abused little kids went on to commit suicide or kill themselves with drugs and alcohol? Are you as concerned about them as you are about what women might do with their icky lady parts? Because if you are, you’ve hitched your wagon to to wrong horse. And if you’re not, you’re an intellectually dishonest hypocrite who really is only interested in controlling women.

Comment #115: Liz212  on  06/15  at  04:16 PM

But they weren’t spoiled brats

IOW Jimbo beats the shit out of them for speaking in his presence, just like every good conservadad.

Comment #116: Dan  on  06/15  at  05:43 PM

@ema

Just fucking wow. Having had my latent depression go into full-on suicidal post-partum depression after the birth of my second child (the one with Down syndrome that had been undiagnosed during my pregnancy) that settled into permanent major depressive disorder that required increasing amounts of medication while I was pregnant with my third child despite the potential risks… how the hell can that man have a license to practice? I even went into a day hospitalization program during that pregnancy, because there was a chance my son had a fatal chromosomal disorder (trisomy 18) based on ultrasound findings and I had to wait on amnio results. Having the extra support during the two weeks of waiting was quite literally a lifesaver.

I’m sure Andrea Yates drowned her children for shits and giggles too.

That man is truly a prince among assholes.

Comment #117: TheRealistMom  on  06/15  at  07:04 PM

JumpinJim, you’re way out of your depth here. First, you’re not a doctor. Next, you’re not a woman facing any of the situations you oh-so-confidently feel you have the right lecture them about. Finally, you have no basis of reality for discussing what women should or shouldn’t do with their bodies at any time, much less during pregnancy.  As far as I can tell, all you want to do is toss some vomit and shit out, claim it’s your opinion, and then back away very fast when we call you on your rancid spooging.  Please, go educate yourself on how women are human beings, entitled to make their own decisions.

Comment #118: dejah thoris  on  06/15  at  08:43 PM

jim, something needs to go into your mouth so you’ll shut up.  May I suggest your own words?

(I have other suggestions, but I won’t be getting into those - it’d take too long.)

Comment #119: Blue Fielder  on  06/15  at  09:16 PM

Considering that scenario DOESN’T HAPPEN,  and cannot LEGALLY HAPPEN , it would be pretty pointless to answer that as a hypothetical, wouldn’t it?

Comment #120: TheRealistMom  on  06/15  at  10:41 PM

jumpinjim,

What I don’t support is terminating a viable, late term pregnancy for any reason whatsoever.

Why not?

Dr. Tiller was a paid hit man, cheating the will of the Kansas electorate to make his millions.

Define “hit man” and explain how it applies to Dr. Tiller. Give a plausible (as in reality-based) explanation as to why a physician would bother with abortion in his/her quest to make millions. (And while you’re at it, why don’t you also append Dr. Tiller’s financial net-worth statement so we can all be privy to the same information you claim to be.)

There is ample documentation that a large number of viable, late term abortions he performed were for trivial reasons.

Linky link to the, you know, ample documentation? Define “trivial reasons” and “large numbers”, use your own medical history, and explain how perfect strangers are qualified to render a judgment on the medical appropriateness of your health decisions.

And the mental health exception in the Kansas abortion law Tiller exploited was a loophole he drove his Mercedes through.

Discuss the specifics of the mental health exception you mention and show how Dr. Tiller exploited it.

How is any doctor who has specialized in abortion for nearly 40 years qualified to make psychiatric diagnoses?

Are you sure your question isn’t “Do I even understand what making a psychiatric diagnosis entails?”

Here is a hypothetical. Suppose the son of the well known feminist Kate calls her up balling his eyes out because his wife has decided to click her red slippers and fly to Kansas to hire a hit man to terminate her 8 ½ month pregnancy, believing of late that motherhood is just not for her.

I can’t speak for Kate, but I would find the scenario quite problematic. The destination’s all wrong; elective third trimester abortions are illegal in Kansas. Although, taking into account the wife’s stated intention to hire a hit man, rather than an Ob/Gyn, to perform medical procedures, and her apparent Dorothy delusion, maybe Kansas is the right destination for her. What with the mental health exception and all.

Does Kate tell her son to stop whimpering, suck it up and accept the rationale that a woman has an absolute right to terminate her pregnancy at any time for any reason or does she feel anguish for her son and anger towards her daughter-in-law.

Unless Kate is some stand-in for the government in your little hypothetical, her reaction is irrelevant to the discussion. The topic is “Should the government ban repro age women from making their own medical decisions?”, not “Should individuals be required to have a standard reaction to life events?”.

Comment #121: ema  on  06/15  at  11:52 PM

I support late term abortion in cases of rape and incest up to and including the day of delivery. What I don’t support is terminating a viable, late term pregnancy for any reason whatsoever.

We’ve addressed this numerous times. You’ve neglected to tell us why a fetus generated by rape can have its “father” forfeit its “right to life” but a fetus generated by consensual sex cannot, or why the pregnant woman doesn’t have that same opportunity to act as proxy.

Dr. Tiller was a paid hit man, cheating the will of the Kansas electorate to make his millions.

“The will of the electorate” is and always will be a red herring. When the will of the electorate is to deprive a population of their constitutional rights, it doesn’t matter whether 51% or 75% or 90% of them want it.

There is ample documentation that a large number of viable, late term abortions he performed were for trivial reasons.

We’re dying to see some, wait, any of that documentation.

And the mental health exception in the Kansas abortion law Tiller exploited was a loophole he drove his Mercedes through. How is any doctor who has specialized in abortion for nearly 40 years qualified to make psychiatric diagnoses?

Better question: how is any blog commenter who hasn’t examined the patient qualified to dismiss psychiatric diagnoses?

Here is a hypothetical. Suppose the son of the well known feminist Kate calls her up balling his eyes out because his wife has decided to click her red slippers and fly to Kansas to hire a hit man to terminate her 8 ½ month pregnancy, believing of late that motherhood is just not for her.

Does Kate tell her son to stop whimpering, suck it up and accept the rationale that a woman has an absolute right to terminate her pregnancy at any time for any reason or does she feel anguish for her son and anger towards her daughter-in-law.

I wonder.

1. Impossible scenario; try again.
2. Feeling sympathy for her son =/= wanting to take away the constitutional rights of her daughter-in-law and thousands of other women.
3. Telling lack of sympathy for the daughter-in-law. But it’s not as if we haven’t picked that up already.

Comment #122: Rebecca  on  06/15  at  11:53 PM

O hai ema. :D

Comment #123: Rebecca  on  06/15  at  11:54 PM

Ema:
thank you! i had no clue how many abortions Dr. Tiller would have performed, so i went with the easiest number for sake of easy math. but 300 babies? means he makes less than 1/3 of what i outlined above
then
Dymphna
thank you too! i *did* forget malpractice insurance.

which means, at this point, Dr. Tiller was LOSING MONEY WITH EVERY ABORTION.

i love how Jim just totally fucking *ignored* the actual fucking REALITY of money.

Jim - follow this.
YOU ARE NOT A DOCTOR, and you are in NO WAY QUALIFIED to make ANY sort of diagnoses. even if you WERE a doctor, and you WERE a specialist in this field, without SEEING THE PATIENTS, you would be IN NO WAY QUALIFIED to make a fucking diagnoses.

some OTHER doctor who has NEVER met the patient IS NOT QUALIFIED TO MAKE ANY FUCKING DIAGNOSES AT ALL.

add the LACK OF DIAGNOSES with Tiller’s LACK OF MAKING MONEY
and you need to shut. the. fuck. up.
NOW.

and, as a side note to this whole thing - until the government either A) requires matching donors to donate blood/marrow/kidneys to ANY person dying for lack of them, or B) there is a medical breakthrough and there are artificial uterii that can carry a fetus to term without requiring anything from the mother, NO ONE has ANY right to make ANY decision for someone else’s body. as far as i am concerned, ANY fetus is alive because someone was nice enough to LET IT STAY THERE. *MY* body, and there is *NOTHING* in this universe that has *ANY* right to do *ANY* thing to my body that *I* do not explicitly consent to. period.

Comment #124: denelian  on  06/16  at  01:20 AM

Here is a hypothetical. Suppose the son of the well known feminist Kate calls her up balling his eyes out because his wife has decided to click her red slippers and fly to Kansas to hire a hit man to terminate her 8 ½ month pregnancy, believing of late that motherhood is just not for her.

Here’s a hypothetical.  What if jumpinjim grew legs that were 10 feet long?

Stop with the silly hypotheticals.  What matters is the real word.  Reality matters.  Show me a case where a woman just decided on a whim to end a pregnancy after 8 1/2 months of wanting the pregnancy, for no reason whatsoever.  I know it’s very difficult for you to get this concept into your head, so listen carefully and I’ll try to explain.  Women aren’t just silly, mindless creatures that make decisions on a whim.  I know you don’t believe that, but it’s true.  Women don’t make the decision to have an abortion on a complete whim, for absolutely no reason.  If a woman has a late-term abortion, I would assume that she’s smart enough to make her own decisions and that she has a very good reason.  Of course reality and evidence support my conclusion.  However, you think so low of women that you assume the exact opposite.  You assume that women are incapable of making any kind of informed decision, so it must be some silly little whim until she proves to you otherwise that she has had enough men to review her case and make the right decision for her.  So either deal with actual reality, or STFU.

Comment #125: bananacat  on  06/16  at  10:21 AM

jumpinjim clearly hasn’t bothered to think through his position (big freaking surprise there!)  If Tiller could make money from providing abortions, he could make even more money by forcing women to continue all pregnancies.  Doctors get paid as much or more for a delivery as they do for an abortion.  For very high-risk women, he could also make tons of money with continuous monitoring of the mother’s health, and plenty of treatments, possibly life-long treatment after the delivery.  Or if the woman died, he’d still make more money stringing her along for a few months.  Of course he could also make plenty of money by providing intensive medical treatments for newborns who have no chance of survival.  The greedy man angle is a little ridiculous when you actually look at reality and see that doctors would make more money by forcing difficult pregnancies and births onto women rather than providing them with necessary abortions.  Please do try to be consistent in the future.

Comment #126: bananacat  on  06/16  at  10:25 AM

If Tiller could make money from providing abortions, he could make even more money by forcing women to continue all pregnancies.  Doctors get paid as much or more for a delivery as they do for an abortion.  For very high-risk women, he could also make tons of money with continuous monitoring of the mother’s health, and plenty of treatments, possibly life-long treatment after the delivery.  Or if the woman died, he’d still make more money stringing her along for a few months.  Of course he could also make plenty of money by providing intensive medical treatments for newborns who have no chance of survival.  The greedy man angle is a little ridiculous when you actually look at reality and see that doctors would make more money by forcing difficult pregnancies and births onto women rather than providing them with necessary abortions.

QFT

Comment #127: Rebecca  on  06/16  at  12:41 PM

In a comment on RHRC where people were trying to claim Dr. Tiller made bank off of “babykilling” because he charged $6000 for a procedure (and the reasons why that doesn’t fly were so well enumerated above, he could have made a hell of a lot more in another field, without that whole psychos shooting him thing) I pointed out the costs of other procedures:

Wisdom tooth removal- $400-$500 per tooth, so up to $2000 for one patient
Appendectomy- $13,000- $18,000 depending on length of hospital stay and how emergent the situation is. (In some cases considerably more.)
Tonsillectomy- $4,153 to $6,381

Considering how invasive and time-consuming the types of procedures he performed were, and the councilling, aftercare, etc… he probably DID lose money a great deal of the time. Especially as he did perform lower-cost or free services in some circumstances.

Comment #128: TheRealistMom  on  06/16  at  01:44 PM

I’ve found that the aforementioned Slacktivist piece has really become germane to our discusssion with jumpinjim here, particularly because he claims to generally back abortion rights, and yet he’s bought into the anti-choice narrative on Dr Tiller hook, line and sinker, and seems to know nothing about McHugh’s documented biases and questionable ethics.

So Pandagonians, is he a “complicit dupe” or “deliberate liar”? And is he afraid of something, or does he simply believe this because he needs be part of the New Anti-Kitten Burning Coalition? (Although of course, this would be more like pretending a certain person was systematically burning kittens when he was in fact trying to save the mother cats. But same basic faux-moral superiority, I-can’t-look-at-myself-in-the mirror-without-this-stuff motivation.)

And of course, since we’re not excused from analysis, why do we argue with him, and the rest of them? Rhetorical exercise? Target for intellectual frustration? Or do we have some small hope, deep in our souls, that we might not change his mind, but the mind of someone lurking out there reading this?

Comment #129: Liz212  on  06/16  at  02:08 PM

Second part of the slacktivist post brought me chills!! It is just like the GOP and conservatives right now. They tell lies they themselves don’t even believe, to feel better about themselves by demonizing us liberals.

Read it.. Doesn’t it fit Glenn Beck, Karl Rove, Newt and the others to a t ?

That requires more self-deception than any of us is capable of on our own. That degree of self-deception requires a group.

This is why the rumor doesn’t really need to be plausible or believable. It isn’t intended to deceive others. It’s intended to invite others to participate with you in deception.

Are you afraid you might be a coward? Join us in pretending to believe this lie and you can pretend to feel brave. Are you afraid that your life is meaningless? Join us in pretending to believe this lie and you can pretend your life has purpose. Are you afraid you’re mired in mediocrity? Join us in pretending to believe this lie and you can pretend to feel exceptional. Are you worried that you won’t be able to forget that you’re just pretending and that all those good feelings will thus seem hollow and empty? Join us and we will pretend it’s true for you if you will pretend it’s true for us. We need each other.

http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slacktivist/2008/10/false-witnesses-2.html

Comment #130: Renmiri  on  06/16  at  04:09 PM

jumpinjim, that case in France is what happens when you force women to give birth. There are countless cases of newborns being left to die in dumpsters, toilets, being burned, maimed, etc.. in countries that forbid abortions. You can’t force motherhood on anyone.

Preventing a safe ethical abortion - by law or by dogma - is what causes this horrible stories. This is your “pro-life” work staring at you in the face.

Comment #131: Renmiri  on  06/16  at  05:27 PM

Deliberate Liar it is. Bad faith confirmed. And quite similar to Slacktivist’s “satanists are in our midst sacrificing babies” story, with Anti-Kitten Burning Coalition undertones.

“God is silent. Now if only we could get Man to shut up.”

Comment #132: Liz212  on  06/16  at  06:23 PM

catgirl: Stop with the silly hypotheticals.  What matters is the real word.  Reality matters.  Show me a case where a woman just decided on a whim to end a pregnancy after 8 1/2 months of wanting the pregnancy, for no reason whatsoever.

jumpinjim: Links to story about woman who carried two —not one, but two—pregnancies to term, a woman who did not just decide on a whim to end three pregnancies after 8 1/2 months for no reason whatsoever.

Although, in fairness to jumpinjim, s/he does have a point. Since the actions of that one woman in France clearly show that American women of reproductive age cannot be trusted once they give birth, the U.S. government should either force women to have abortions, or force them to relinquish the neonate the moment the cord is clamped.

Also,

You think if she had been closer to Kansas rather than South Korea, she would have ended up meeting Dr. Tiller professionally?

What would she need Dr. Tiller for, seeing how both France and South Korea have Ob/Gyns who perform abortions?

Or maybe she’s one of those “do it yourself” types or really cheap and wanted to save $6000.

I would say that’s pretty much *the* reality-based explanation for a woman who did not abort, not once, but twice and then killed her children. I mean, who among us hasn’t killed an infant or two with their own hands after giving birth or hasn’t felt the need to watch our spending in these economic times?

Comment #133: ema  on  06/16  at  07:38 PM

jumpinjim,

I left the 1999 (also not an abortion) one out because it’s not clear from the article if it’s something she told the police or something that actually happened.

Comment #134: ema  on  06/16  at  08:39 PM

Yup.  Ema’s right, JiJ.  You’ve got us.  Now that you’ve shown us this story about a single, apparently mentally ill woman in France (lacking any real details, I’m going to guess severe postpartum depression, with a hefty dose of denial all around - if hubby failed not once, but three times, to realize that his wife was pregnant, then he’s not quite right either), we’re forced to admit that women actually decide to abort perfectly healthy pregnancies at 38 weeks all the time.  In fact, abortion cravings are a standard symptom of late pregnancy, and the only reason any pregnancies come to term at all is because the law, expense, and lack of access make it so difficult to just kip down to the corner for a quick D&E;.  Women who actually do manage to get those sweet, sweet late-term abortions are the ones who plan ahead of time how to fox the system. 

Since you’ve caught us in our lies, it seems that you’re better qualified than those who are currently in charge to make sure that women don’t get away with their little scams.  Perhaps the next Republican administration should make you their “Abortion Czar”, so you can personally approve and disapprove late-term abortions on a case-by-case basis.

Comment #135: Seraph  on  06/16  at  09:15 PM

ema on 06/16 at 06:38 PM said: What would she need Dr. Tiller for, seeing how both France and South Korea have Ob/Gyns who perform abortions?

If she had been closer to Kansas, why would she need the abortion doctors services in France and South Korea?

Attention, dumbass: the point is that abortion, even late-term abortion, was available to her in both France and South Korea.  She didn’t get an abortion there, she wouldn’t have gotten an abortion if she’d “lived closer to Dr. Tiller”.  Her mental illness, whatever it might have been, would have played itself out in pretty much the same way wherever she was.

Comment #136: Seraph  on  06/16  at  09:53 PM

Jimmy, we’ve already told you why we’re not impressed by McHugh.  Bringing him up again won’t help you.

Yeesh, you’re like an street preacher who tries to convert atheists by quoting Bible passages at them.

Comment #137: Seraph  on  06/16  at  11:11 PM

Oh, is the thing about him admitting to violating state law by covering up child abuse not good enough for you? I find it particularly ironic, given the fact that Phil Kline first launched his investigation by claiming that Tiller was neglecting his legal and ethical duties by not some how compelling minors to reveal the circumstances of their pregnancies to law enforcement. In fact, I believe Bill O’Reilly picked up on that specific complaint early on as well. Do you understand that the fact they had to fly in some ideologue psychiatrist with questionable ethics to testify for them, as opposed to getting one of the mental health professionals commonly used by that court, likely means that they had no case? Oh wait, you do. Bad faith and all.

Conservative Judith Reisman has been after Paul McHugh for several years now. She cites a Baltimore Sun piece that says:

  For the last eight months, Dr. Fred S. Berlin, director of the Johns Hopkins Hospital’s sexual disorders clinic, has circumvented a state law requiring that incidents of child sexual abuse be reported…. On the day the [reporting law] went into effect, with the blessing of his superiors, Dr. Berlin issued a memorandum to patients and prospective patients warning them of the state’s new reporting requirement and suggesting a way around it… Dr. Berlin’s boss, Dr. Paul R. McHugh…said the hospital…did agree with [Berlin’s] interpretation of [the law]… “We did what we thought was appropriate” (emphasis added).

Here’s her website:
http://www.theroadtoemmaus.org/RdLb/22SxSo/PnSx/Knsy/Reismn vMcHu.htm

So, McHugh’s fine with illegal conduct when it suits him, isn’t he? Even when it’s about sex with little kids. You tell me what his opposition to abortion and involvement in the Tiller case is really about.

Comment #138: Liz212  on  06/17  at  12:15 AM

Also, no one posted a single link that proved why some folks are “not impressed by McHugh”.

You know people actually read the whole thread, right?  Not just the most recent post?

the only reason anyone would want to prevent illegal abortions is because they hate women. You believe that?

I believe that the only reason anyone would want abortions to be illegal in the first place is because they hate women.  Or because they’re gullible enough to believe that those who hate women have good intentions.  Judging by your showing on this thread, I’d say you’re one of the former - and I’d be willing to bet that’s what the readers you’re trying to misinform will take away. 

Night-night, Jimmy.  Enjoy the last word - I’m sure you’ll get it.  You have far more tolerance for your bullshit than any of us do.

Comment #139: Seraph  on  06/17  at  12:24 AM

http://www.theroadtoemmaus.org/RdLb/22SxSo/PnSx/Knsy/ReismnvMcHu.htm

There you go, Liz.  Can’t leave any gaps.

Comment #140: Seraph  on  06/17  at  12:26 AM

Oops.  Try this one.

Comment #141: Seraph  on  06/17  at  12:36 AM

http://www.theroadtoemmaus.org/RdLb/22SxSo/PnSx/Knsy/Reismn vMcHu.htm

I was wrong.  You do have to leave the gap, and you have to copy and paste it into the address window.  For whatever reason, the linking isn’t working.  For good measure, here’s another one:

http://www.theroadtoemmaus.org/RdLb/22SxSo/PnSx/Knsy/Reismn vMcHu02.htm

Just trying to be helpful.  By againg.

Comment #142: Seraph  on  06/17  at  12:43 AM

Ahem.  “Bye again.”  Time to go to bed.

Comment #143: Seraph  on  06/17  at  12:43 AM

Suppose the son of the well known feminist Kate calls her up balling his eyes out because his wife has decided to click her red slippers and fly to Kansas to hire a hit man to terminate her 8 ½ month pregnancy, believing of late that motherhood is just not for her.

Well, I can’t speak for Kate, of course, but if that happened to me, I’d say “Son, put the melon baller down before you blind yourself, then hang on while I call 911, ‘cause you’re on a bad acid trip.”  Then I’d locate my daughter-in-law and ask her what was going on, and why my son was tripping in the first place.

Anyway, you’ve proved Amanda’s point; the frivolous woman who decides to abort a third trimester pregnancy just for shits and giggles is about as real as the “Birth Of A Nation” black politician who wants equal rights so he can terrorize white people.  Neither one is based on reality; they’re “Twilight Zone” nightmares conjured so the ruling class can shudder and say “See what happens when those people get power?  Better leave all the rights in our hands, so we can make judgements for all.”

Comment #144: Blue Jean  on  06/17  at  01:01 AM

Wow!  What a coincidence!  I once heard a story about a high school couple who went to Lover’s Lane, and they were making out when there was a news report on the radio about a crazy escaped killer who had a hook for a hand!  And you know what?  He was every bit as real as your phantom patient!  Neither of them had names, neither of them had a location; whoa!  I bet they were married to each other!  What are the odds of that, eh?

Comment #145: Blue Jean  on  06/17  at  02:26 AM

Well, JiJ, we still do need a little humor.  Please stand aside and let someone who is qualified provide some.

Comment #146: Dr. Psycho  on  06/17  at  06:28 AM

So, the investigation by the Baltimore Sun showing that the clinic was not reporting sex crimes was also wrong? And you are aware of the fact that “pro bono legal counsel” and “pro bono (non-legal) adviser are two different things? (And also that occasionally means “not often”?) And that it means something that apparently the only doctor who would do a Bill Frist-style drive-by diagnosis of patients he’d not examined and second guess another group of doctors is Paul McHugh, Bush appointee to the President’s Council on “Bioethics”? And that, since putting him on the stand after that Baltimore Sun investigation would’ve meant that his credibility could be reduced to nothing by the defense, the prosecution must’ve really had no options in terms of other experts?
While it was obvious your third trimester abortion story was false, it wasn’t obvious that it was a joke, since you buy into all the other clearly untrue nonsense about Tiller. And seeing as how stories like that got the man killed, the “joke” is bad form. At least.

Comment #147: Liz212  on  06/17  at  10:59 AM

Nobody has yet mentioned the rather obvious fact that if Dr. Tiller had been primarily interested in raking in money, he could have done boob jobs and avoided the need for most of his malpractice insurance and all of his bulletproof armor and bodyguarding.

Comment #148: Dr. Psycho  on  06/17  at  12:28 PM

Suppose the son of the well known feminist Kate calls her up balling his eyes out because his wife has decided to click her red slippers and fly to Kansas to hire a hit man to terminate her 8 ½ month pregnancy, believing of late that motherhood is just not for her.

Ah, it’s Ye Old Wacky “What If?” scenario, the refuge of every right wing idiot who has lost the argument.

It’s like the pro-torture crowd, who, in lieu of an actual cogent argument, cook up ever more fantastical, Jack Bauer-style scenarios in which torture might be acceptable.  Usually, they end up somewhere extra Jiffy (it’s the nuttiest) like, “What if an aggressive race of space aliens attacked Earth and the only way to save Earth was to torture one human?  Huh? Huh?”

At which point, the reasonable person stares at wingnut jackass in wordless disbelief for a beat, and then shrugs and says, “Fine.  You win.  It would be okay to use torture then.  The Geneva Convention should have a space aliens clause.”

It is the very rare pregnant woman who waits until her eighth month to decide whether or not to give birth.  While many women by that point in pregnancy may think, “Oy, come on kid, be born already,” they most certainly are looking forward to a live baby. 

Yeah.  There probably are a few frivolously, psychotic women who decide, late in the pregnancy, “This sucks, I’m getting fat, time for an abortion.”  Ultimately, anyone that mentally unstable probably shouldn’t be a parent anyway.  And the percentage of late term abortions that are truly this frivolous has to be low, since by-and-large a late-term abortion pretty much defeats one of the main points of abortion.  Which is, to avoid the complications of pregnancy.

Comment #149: adobedragon  on  06/17  at  03:59 PM

There was no conflict between psychiatrists; both McHugh and Berlin thought it was appropriate. And while I might not agree with concealing ongoing child sexual abuse, I recognize that the two of them are in thorny ethical territory and there is no good option. I realize that. McHugh does not. Because if he had, he would not have done drive-by diagnoses on another doctor’s patients, who had their confidentiality violated, and he would understand that perhaps other doctors have to make tough calls as well. He instead has not only joined the fray but actively participated in the right wing media frenzy surrounding Dr Tiller. This is not a man who really worries that much about ethics. And I will remind you that what you asked for was a reason someone who does not think like us might find McHugh’s testimony unreliable. We find him unreliable because he’s a vocal anti-abortion advocate.
Your “6000 late term abortions at $6000 each” does not come from any credible source, and instead has been bandied about without attribution by O’Reilly and his ilk. (Incidentally, for someone who claims to be in favor of abortion rights, you don’t seem particularly skeptical of the Randall Terrys and Jill Staneks of the world, and you feel compelled to bring up the fact that Tiller made donations to “abortion-friendly” politicians. Curious. I would think as a pro-choice atheist, perhaps you’ve made a few donations to similarly-minded politicians or special interest groups.) Neither of us know how the state of Kansas defines “viable”, although my guess is “currently alive and at least 22 weeks”, as opposed to “perfectly healthy and at least 22 weeks.” This of course means that there would be fetuses with deformities largely incompatible with life. As for follow-up care, Tiller is an OB-GYN, and those with mental health problems would therefore not receive psychiatric counseling from him. And while Tiller and the other doctor who signed off on any mental health related abortions may or may not have any training in psychology or psychiatry, they at least talked to the patients, unlike McHugh. Your state attorneys general is all of one, Phil Kline. And you know who believes Tiller acted within the law? A Kansas jury, after less than an hour of deliberation.
But none of this matters to you, because you’re like the psycho-christians in the Slacktivist piece who pass along the tale of Proctor and Gamble being run by Satanists. You couldn’t possibly care less what the truth is, and any evidence that you might be wrong is simply discarded, because you have to believe that there’s an evil doctor killing babies for fun and profit. No pro-choice atheist would rely so heavily on clearly biased sources, particularly when so many of them see pro-choice atheists as irredeemably evil, so I have to categorize you as a Deliberate Liar, as opposed to the slightly less objectionable Complicit Dupe. You say you’re pro-choice because we are, and claim to be an atheist because you think we are, though it’s actually only true of some people on this board. You argue in bad faith, trying desperately to satiate whatever psychological need compels you to first believe these things and then pick fights in political forums. I would guess you were somehow abused as a child, as this seems to be the modus operandi of some men with that history, but who knows? Maybe you’re lonely and frustrated. Maybe you’ve done something horrible, or can’t quite bear to look inside yourself for fear of what you’ll find, so you have to take up some “moral cause”, though not one where you actually have to do anything. Maybe you have a problem with women, and this is really about an old girlfriend/ex-wife/mother/sister. But it doesn’t really matter, because we’ve all read the Slacktivist article, and we know what you are. Were people like you not constantly poisoning the debate on significant issues I would feel very sad for you, trapped in your own worlds but still afraid to come out. But you continue to spread propaganda, the kind that gets people killed. You better hope that there really is no god.

Comment #150: Liz212  on  06/17  at  10:54 PM

JumpinJum
on the OTHER HAND, you expect US to believe a doctor who has ZERO experience in treating women who get abortions, NEVER met a SINGLE one of those patients, NEVER saw the complete RECORDS of those patients - you expect us to believe that this shrink was able to make ACCURATE DIAGNOSES OF PATIENTS HE HAD NEVER FUCKING MET OFF OF RECORDS THAT HAD BEEN REDACTED SO THAT MOST OF THE INFORMATION WAS GONE! ANDyou expect us to value HIS word and diagnosis and medical expertise in what is NOT his field over the word and diagnosis and medical expertise of the DOCTOR WHO WAS THERE AND HAD 40 YEARS OF MEDICAL KNOWLEDGE, PRACTICE AND EXPERTISE IN THIS FIELD!?!?

AND you expect us to believe - after us proving over and FUCKING OVER how impossible this was, that Dr. Tiller was SOMEHOW GETTING RICH BY PERFORMING ABORTIONS. that, in fact, his ONLY motive for performing abortions was money -
money that HE NEVER MADE FOR HIMSELF.
scroll back up. LOOK at what i wrote up there. then UNDERSTAND that the numbers i gave? i assumed he was aborting MORE THAN THREE TIMES what he was REALLY aborting. so let us do this fucking math over again.

(continued in next comment)

Comment #151: denelian  on  06/17  at  11:45 PM

Assume that Dr. Tiller REALLY DOES charge $6,000 for EVERY late term abortion he does. (when in fact, while he may have charge *some*, maybe even *many*, of his patients that much recently, he DID do many abortions charged on a sliding-scale, and did do many for FREE)
last year, he performed less than 300 abortions. but let us round up to 300. for 300 abortions, Dr. Tiller GROSSES
$1.8 million dollars. (Jesus, is that *all*?)
corporate taxes cost Dr. Tiller (assuming 25%, which is probably much lower than he was charged)
$450,000 so Dr. Tiller now has
$1.35 million dollars. Dr. Tiller probably has 10 Nurses (of varying types) who probably average $50,000 a year. so they cost $500,000 a year to pay.
now Dr. Tiller has $850,000
Dr. Tiller probably has 20 various OTHER employess, and they probably averge $25,000. so these employees ALSO cost Dr. Tiller $500,000 a year to employ.
Now Dr. Tiller has $350,000

JESUS, at this point, I DON’T EVEN FUCKING KNOW HOW DR. TILLER WAS ABLE TO STAY IN BUSINESS AT ALL. lets say his rent was only $100,000. and that he only paid $100,000 for supplies. and that he only paid $50,000 for utilities and fixing things and maitence and local fees and business licenses and medical licenses and the like, and that he only paid $50,000 for malpractice insurance. that adds up to $300,000. but understand, i’m pretty sure that ALL of these cost a HELL of a lot more

so - before he pays for security, Dr. Tiller’s gross take-home income is FIFTY FUCKING THOUSAND DOLLARS A YEAR. *I* made more than that as a GODDAMNED SECRETARY!!!!!!!!!!!! and that is BEFORE he pays personal taxes!!!!!!! he probably took home, AT BEST, $40,000 a year!!!!!!!!!!

oh, yeah, the man was TOTALLY GETTING FUCKING RICH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OH, my GODS, i could WEEP.

JumpingJim, YOU ARE WRONG.

you are wrong when you say that most of the abortions he performed were for “fluff” reasons
you are wrong when you say that he was in it to get rich
you are wrong when you say that Dr. McHugh, or any OTHER doctor who never saw these patients, are able to give accurate, complete, competent diagnoses.
you are wrong when you say that Dr. Tiller broke the law - he was investigated countless times, and was NEVER found to have broken ANY law
you are wrong when you say that there is no difference between abortion and infantcide. although, i will point out - the BIBLE was ALL FOR infantcide.
you are wrong when you tell these “stories” - the “feminist Kate”, the French woman, the woman who (you admit this one is not true) insisted she had “no reason” for an abortion, and that Dr. Tiller accepted this.

i am wrong to even be attempting to make this last-ditch effort to make you SEE that you are wrong. there is not a fucking thing that I, or anyone else, can say that will make you STOP BELIEVING these OBVIOUS LIES that you are spouting and spreading. this BULLSHIT. and i am taking up space to argue with you, AGAIN, despite the fact that you are A) arguing in bad faith, B) lying and C) have admitted to both.
i am doing this not for YOU, though, but because someone else might see all that i have written here, and understand that you ARE spouting bullshit, and hopefully this hypothetical person will be saved from your BULLSHIT.

for the last FUCKING TIME: SHUT THE FUCK UP. you obviously have no clue what the fuck you are talking about - you lie, you have admitted to lying; you make shit up, and have admitted to making shit up; you are not a doctor, but expect us to accept your “medical” opinion, even though you have no medical expertise and legally cannot give “medical opinions”. you have no knowledge on how diagnosis works, but expect us to believe that a diagnosis made with NO knowledge of the patient, without having met the patient or seen ANY of the patients actual medical records, and soley based off of a redacted portion of medical records that only cover THIS SINGLE THING - Dr. McHugh NEVER SAW THE REST OF THESE WOMEN’S MEDICAL RECORDS! i am not just talking about the records from Dr. Tiller’s clinic, of which he saw ONLY a REDACTED portion, BUT THE REST OF THEIR RECORDS THAT COVER THEIR ENTIRE LIVES!!!!!!; you are WRONG in pretty much EVERY SINGLE THING THAT YOU HAVE SAID HERE, but instead of appologizing and acknowledging that you are arguing from a position of incomplete knowledge, incomplete understanding, and a large portion of bullshit and bald-faced LIES - or at the VERY fucking least shutting the fuck up and leaving us ALONE - you just KEEP ON SPOUTING LIES AND BULLSHIT, and keep on getting ANGRY when we don’t BUY your lies and bullshit.

at this point, i am officially asking - can someone PLEASE ban jumpingjack as an obvious troll who isn’t just dumber than the official stick, but is actually fucking dumber than a single atom of the stick?

Comment #152: denelian  on  06/17  at  11:45 PM

Army of Liz indeed, denelian. wink

Comment #153: Liz212  on  06/18  at  12:56 AM

was that to me? my name is “Denelian” so first off, fail there.
second off, i was doing the calculation, per year, as to what he would have made. every source says that Tiller did between 250-300 abortions PER YEAR. so, PER YEAR, if one assumes that Bill O’Reilly is correct that he charged $6,000 per abortion, that is the math.

you fucking do it. 300 abortions times $6,000.

you assume, from no where that i can see, that he did 60,000 abortions over his “lifetime” - and, BTW, i have NEVER seen that claim ANYWHERE else. where the hell did you get that figure?
but, if you think 300 is not enough, scroll up AS I SUGGESTED EARLIER, when i did my first calculation, based on 1,000 abortions per year at $6,000 per abortion. (which is still more money than 1,500 abortions $3,000). and proved, there, that HE DID NOT GET RICH.

if you don’t want to think, that’s great. GO SOMEWHERE ELSE TO NOT THINK.
and DO NOT call me, or anyone else HERE, names. we have called you a liar, because you are lying and have ADMITTED you are lying. it’s an accurate label.
just because you don’t UNDERSTAND basic mathematics doesn’t mean that i am stupid - it means that you are ignorant. go run the numbers; a calculator would probably be necessary for. go ahead.

the go away.

Comment #154: denelian  on  06/18  at  03:29 AM

Re. the woman in France - further analysis of the psychological angle:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8104195.stm

Comment #155: Nic_C  on  06/18  at  12:32 PM

The 60,000 figure is pulled directly from propaganda as well. But given the fact that you “coerced” your wife to have an abortion, and you “both have trouble with it to this day”, despite the fact that it was at 4 months and you supposedly are for abortion up to 5 months, I’m upgrading you from Deliberate Liar to Complicit Dupe. Any atheist (or thinking theist) would read the Slacktivist piece and draw parallels between outlandish rumors and Young Earthers, biblical literalists, etc. But you call those theories “religion”, which is bizarre, inasmuch as they’re not really presented as absolutes. Your unshakeable belief that Dr Tiller did something wrong at that Amanda is Nurse Ratched looks a hell of a lot more like religion than anything written by Fred Clark or a defender of Dr Tiller. (And incidentally, you’ve proven Fred Clark right with your recent admissions. That never happens with religion.) You’re a conflicted, frustrated man and unfortunately that won’t get better starting arguments on boards or tilting at windmills. Get some therapy. You’re not helping anyone this way.

Comment #156: Liz212  on  06/18  at  02:44 PM

*cheer* for Liz!

we are the BEST army :D

(I meant to reply to you before, but got all side-tracked. sigh, i suck. but you rock!)

Comment #157: denelian  on  06/18  at  05:53 PM

Thanks, d! You also rock, just belatedly. smile

Comment #158: Liz212  on  06/18  at  08:36 PM

What you’ve given me is information from a biased source about partial files he saw; he says nothing about how old any of the patients are, or what may have been afflicting their babies. Does he believe an 11 year old rape victim should be forced to carry to term? Or that a fetus with severe abnormalities should always be brought to term so it can die hours later? I would wager, since W put him on his Bioethics Committee, that he probably does. And funnily enough, despite the “evidence” that McHugh claims to have, Dr Tiller wasn’t tried for that, or even indicted for it, despite Phil Kline’s best efforts. Seems like it must not have amounted to much, or perhaps a review by more objective experts reached a different conclusion.

Your description of late term abortion as a “necessary evil that unfortunately is needed given the modern culture that we’re living in” is instructive. I would say why, but I’m sure I don’t have to, what with your towering intellect and capacity for self-reflection.

Likewise, I don’t have to explain why you saying you “coerced” your wife into an abortion which still haunts you to this day may have something to do with your vociferous denunciations, aka talking points put out by pro-lifers. Liveleak? Really? Someone who clearly hates Dr Tiller says this is his voice and I’m supposed to believe it, even though simple math proves that the number is outlandish? For someone who accuses other people of being dogma-driven ideologues who simply parrot the opinions of others, you certainly rely quite a lot on the gems foisted on the general public by Bill O’Reilly and anti-choicers. And may I say, despite my alleged hatred for those who disagree with me, I’ve never referred to any of them with the names of malevolent fictional characters from film and/or literature.

What’s funny jim, is that all of the things that you say about me seem to apply to you. Is that what’s really going on here? Have we finally reached the center of the shrubbery maze? Is all of this because, deep down, you really think it’s you that’s the baby killer?

Comment #159: Liz212  on  06/19  at  12:29 AM

the point that you seemed to have missed, while you were sitting in a corner laughing at your inability to do basic math, is that the numbers you are throwing around don’t match. and that also, o ignorant one, that you are A) addressing me by a name that is not mine, for no apparant reason except that of being incapable of being able to *spell* on top of being incapable of completing a simple mathematic function, and B) are insulting *me* for your deficiencies.

you claim Tiller claimed he had aborted 60,000 over his lifetime. i am even willing to grant that he may have. i merely stated that you had not given any proof to that claim, and that EVEN IF IT WERE ACCURATE, since the majority of the abortions he provided were NOT late term and cost as little as 1/10 the late term abortions he provided, it doesn’t change the math. it adds, certainly. you own input was to say he did 1,500 a year at an average of $3,000. what does THAT equal?
that equals, TO START, that the business GROSSES 4,5 million dollars. i will, one last time, try and show you how to figure out what TILLER made off of his business.

4.5 million start
corporate tax of 25% is 1,125,000
Tiller now has 3.375,000 million dollars.
nurses, 10, average pay $50,000. they cost him $500,000 a year
Tiller now has 2,875,000 million dollars.
20 other employes, average pay $25,000, costing Tiller another $500,000
Tiller now has 2,375,000 million dollars.
Medical equipment and supplies, per year; conservative estimate (lowest amount) $750,000
TIller now has 1,625,000 million
Licencing, local; licensing state, licensing medical self, licensing medical, clinic; licensing corporate business; licensing medical, staff. etc, etc. probably (again, conservative estimate, low) $750,000
Tiller now has $875,000 dollars.
rent and utilities, lets be nice, and say that all that (water, power, gas, matentaince, inspections, firecode upkeep, etc) was ONLY 500,000 a year.
so Tiller has $375,000 dollars. malpractice insurance is NOT cheap. probably more that $300,000 a year. but, ok, lets leave it at $300,000
mean that Dr Tillers GROSS TAKE HOME PAY was $75,000. on which he paid, at minimim, 25%

the MOST Dr. Tiller netted as take home pay was about $56,250. and he STILL had to pay for security.

so tell me, o most knowledgeable of visitors to our fair site, where is my math wrong? in this run down, i used YOUR numbers. and still came up with Tiller making LESS than pretty much ANY OTHER DOCTOR IN THE COUNTRY.

yeah, he was an evil greedy man who did it all for the money. that he didn’t get.

can you shut up now? or at least use peoples actual names now? i called you buy your cognam of “Jumping Jim” up until you started deliberately using other people’s names incorrectly. should i start calling you “JumpedUPJim? or something equally stupid and innoculous?

all you know about me is that you are incapable of spelling my name correctly, let alone understand what that name *means*, and that you are incapable of follow basic mathmatical function. but you are callimg *me* an asshole, and worse?
there’s a world of difference between calling someone by a name that is *theirs* and coming up with mocking nicknames because you are incapapble of understanding what their actual names are. either do the math and see how you are wrong.

or shut up and GO AWAY. honestly, i have no clue why you are here at all, except perhaps that you really are incapable of doing the basic math and want someone to do it for you

Comment #160: denelian  on  06/19  at  07:21 AM

Point by point:

I think you’re incorrect on what McHugh believes.

Kline had the files since 2006. And even if someone else prosecuted the case, if there were real evidence that Tiller aborted the healthy viable babies of healthy mothers, someone would’ve at least tried to get an indictment. With Tiller’s files sealed, I’m surprised McHugh wasn’t slapped with a gag order for attempting to poison the jury pool.

The description of late term abortion I was referring to is that it’s “a necessary evil that is unfortunately needed in our modern society.” I don’t have to explain why that’s problematic, since you’ve repeatedly established your intelligence.

There are not two abortion providers in Kansas. The last time a comprehensive survey was done was 2005, and there were 7 providers. And that’s facilities, not individual doctors. Dr Tiller’s clinic had 3 physicians. Tiller has been practicing since 1971, so for 60,000 lifetime he’d have to do 4 to 5 abortion per day, 7 days a week, 365 days per year. In order to 3550 in a year, he’d have to do 9 to 10 abortions, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. But I’m sure you actually crunched the numbers yourself, what with your engineering physics degree and all.

Again, you accuse me of something that applies to you; your psychoanalysis of George Tiller is nonsense. He decided to perform abortions after finding that his father had performed them for his patients, because he had seem the damage caused by back alley abortions. Again jim, you’re projecting. Both in what you say about me, and, I suspect, what you say about Tiller. Do/did you feel unattractive and nerdish? Were you rejected by women a lot? Are you a Nice Guy(TM), and this is in part about the sexually active women that you labeled “sluts” in your youth, and perhaps still resent today? The idea that a man would become an OB/GYN so he could have access to women is adolescent at best. You’re very angry about a lot of things.

Comment #161: Liz212  on  06/19  at  12:15 PM

He’s angry at himself, but can’t take it out any place besides here.

Comment #162: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/19  at  02:22 PM

Avenger, I didn’t even know anyone else was following this thread. At least that’s what your mother told me last night . . .smile
Scottish brogue on that last bit is optional.

Comment #163: Liz212  on  06/19  at  02:35 PM

hehehe smile

i’ve been following, to hone my financial skills lol


it’s possible that Tiller was a millionare of some sort. doesn’t mean (and i have seen no REASON to believe) that he made all of his money by performing abortions. it’s much more likely that - like most upper-middle class people - he has stock and/or other means of making money. hell, i’m broke-ass poor (that whole too-disabled-to-work, not-disabled-enough-for-aid) and *I* have some CDs and stock. that are worth 1/4 of what they were last year, i grant…

can someone explain to me why the fuck this asshole cannot give my name correctly? at this point, he is having to expend effort to type it incorrectly. is he really that worried that people are going to think poorly of him that he feels he *must* provide a reason that he can control?

also, why should i believe that a random, faceless, anonymous stranger has any sort of degree, let alone one this specific, if he is as incapable of being logical or being polite as he represents himself to be? (and honestly, i can’t help that “Dandy Lion” is supposed to be some sort of homophobic crack, calling me a “dandy” and all, implying that i am wussy man. when i am female. which he would know if he read the comments. but… maybe i am projecting on that one, maybe he doesn’t intend it as a deliberate slur, maybe he is doing to just literally act the asshole. *shrug*)

Liz, i must say again, you rock!

Comment #164: denelian  on  06/20  at  05:23 AM

I’m still stopping in every once in a while, too, to watch you deliver Jimmy’s latest beatdown. 

BTW, am I the only one who finds it illuminating that the part Jimmy regrets about coercing his wife into an abortion is the “abortion” part, not the “coercing” part?  Controlling women is all well and good, but you have to make sure to use them for the right purpose.

Comment #165: Seraph  on  06/20  at  02:22 PM

A beatdown to you is saying your side decisively ended the fight by your guy getting knocked out. Amusing.

Says the guy stumbling around the ring, punch-drunk, both eyes swollen shut, shouting “This ain’t over!”

How do you know asshole? You formed that opinion from one sentence I wrote. You jump to conclusions with next to no info.

The only info I have is what you give me.  You stripped your wife of her choice in college, and you want to strip women in general of their choices now.  Can’t feel too guilty about it if you want to do it again on a larger scale.  On the other hand, you clearly regret the abortion itself, if that’s the reason you give for attacking abortion now. 

Besides, what makes you think it’s just one sentence?  You’ve made it pretty clear over the course of this thread that controlling women - making sure they don’t get away with “excuses” for late-term abortions that you don’t approve of - is at least as important to you as the pwecious baybeeez.

Comment #166: Seraph  on  06/20  at  03:55 PM

How can jimmy demonstrate to his son how to respect women as fellow human beings, given the way he’s treated women commentators on this thread?

Comment #167: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/20  at  04:08 PM
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