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Next entry: Grumbles Previous entry: Writing for AOL’s Lemondrop

The dangers of imbuing moral danger on health concerns

I hesitated to comment on this whole situation of concern trolls claiming that Regina Benjamin is too fat to be the surgeon general, because while trolling for trolls can be fun, I feel there’s a big gap between men who concern troll women’s weight in blog comments and anyone who says anything of importance. Or to put it another way, I see commenters pretending to be concerned about a fat woman’s health 1,000 times more than I see actual bloggers do so.  But I’m not sure where to draw the line on that, and blog comment sections can tell you a lot about what the common wisdom in the general populace is.  And as fat activists can tell you, concern trolling about weight is a real common behavior in real life.  I should know—-when I got a little puffy during college, my then-boyfriend told me I should lose weight, for my health of course, even though I far short of the weight that you need to be in order to be considered overweight.  Of course, being far from stupid, I knew that meant, “your size 10 butt is embarrassing to me”, and have no doubt that similar statements made online about fat women, or even not-super-skinny women, are in the same vein. 

So, with that in mind, what I find interesting about the “OMG HEALTH” concern trolling that comes from a belief that only women can suffer from health problems that correlate to obesity is how much they depend on the moralizing of health that’s so damn trendy in our society.  By saying this, I’m not making any health claims about weight.  That discussion, while interesting, is beside the point of this post.  It’s enough to know that most people strongly associate health and weight.  So when disingenuous sexists start to bellyache about the dangers of letting fat women out in public, they get traction, because it’s becoming increasingly acceptable to suggest that not being perfectly healthy is a moral failing that should be punished with social disapproval, shaming, ostracism, and lowered access to society.  Of course, we double down on fat people, and triple down on fat women, because of plain old prejudice, but this isn’t happening in a vacuum.  Smokers, people who don’t eat right, and other people with poor health habits are also considered morally inadequate, if harder to judge because they’re harder to spot.  The fetish for health management is, I suspect, a large reason that the anti-vaccination movement has taken hold.  People who want an edge in the moral olympics of prevention are inventing counterintuitive (and anti-intellectual) shit to do in order to win as the bestest, most deserving of good health. 

There are many downsides, but one of the most disturbing is that this moral judgment of personal health habits has already started to infect the debate about health care.  There’s an increasing and unscientific belief that if you have poor health outcomes, it must be because you did something wrong and you don’t deserve help.  Part of the reason for this is insurance companies and their willingness to deny coverage based on personal habits, and conservatives are pretty open about their fears that health care reform will mean you get the same coverage whether you smoke or eat Twinkies or don’t.  On top of that, there’s an increasing tendency, if you do get sick, to start looking for what you did to deserve it.  The problem with this, besides being inhumane, is a lot of people do the same things and get away with it.  The direct line between “wrong” behavior like poor nutrition or smoking or lack of exercise and actual punishments isn’t real.

It’s the problem of conflating statistical likelihood with individual lives.  You’re far more statistically likely to get lung cancer if you smoke, so you should quit smoking.  For insurance companies, this means there’s a bottom line reason to exclude smokers from coverage, even if some will never get lung cancer.  But providing health care to everyone is a moral issue, and so we try to imbue morality into treating individuals with poor health habits as if they’re less deserving, and that’s bullshit.  If anything ever had a right to go into the “personal flaws with no moral implications” category, then having poor health habits should be it.  Instead of using poor health habits as an excuse to shun people that we believe have visible evidence of them, i.e. fat people, we should instead start to think long and hard about having a more generous attitude about the imperfectability of human beings.  Same honestly goes for smokers, too.  I cringe when I see friends of mine who are addicted to smoking beat themselves up about it.  Smoking just happens to be a highly visible bad habit that’s been the focus of a lot of public health initiatives, often very good ones that actually end up helping smokers out, since roughly 100% of smokers I know want to quit.  But since people make the mistake of conflating attempts to address problems on a large scale for large scale good results with passing judgment on individuals, a lot of smokers sadly have to struggle with feelings of guilt for having what amounts to a bad habit. If all of us were held up to the “no bad habits” standard, we’d all fail.


On the most recent edition of the podcast Pal Cast, PalMD talked about a quackish “philosophy” of medicine that uses the claim of whole person approaches (which all decent doctors use anyway) to exclude people who can’t or won’t lose weight, quit smoking, or get more exercise.  That this sort of idea has any traction at all concerns me, because we should be going in the other direction, trying to find ways to both encourage better health habits and understand that people are not perfectible. 

We need more mature, holistic views about these things.  Frances Kissling gets at it in this comment:

This country is full of above-average weight women and children struggling for dignity as well as to lose weight. Achieving either of these is not easy. (Never mind that none of these criticisms have mentioned any actual health concerns Benjamin might or might not have, instead presuming “obesity” as a catch-all for bad health.) Having a confident, big-bodied and big-spirited woman as America’s family doctor could do more to improve their health than skinny HHS secretary Kathleen Sebelius. It’s good to know that even doctors struggle with their weight—and lead full and active lives in spite of adversity.

Having spent a lot of energy writing about and researching reproductive health issues, I’m really inclined to think that this more flexible, non-moralizing approach actually helps people who are struggling more.  By being able to contextualize their issues in ways that don’t cause guilt or lowered self-esteem, they feel they have more control over the issue.  People who see sex as a fraught, moral issue aren’t often in a good place to make healthy changes to their sexual habits.  People who don’t view the status of your genitals as a judgment on your moral character are often in a lot better position to take care of themselves.  For instance, if you get an STD and you think this means that you’re being punished for sin, you’re much more likely to be in denial, not get treatment, and pass it on.  If you think it’s got no more moral implications than getting a cold, then you’re much more likely to get treatment.  Having people come out and speak about getting STDs is very effective in convincing others that having an STD doesn’t make you a bad or diseased person, and can help then reduce the STD level. For that reason, I think having role models like Barack Obama share their struggle with quitting smoking will do more to help others quit or not smoke at all, because it reduces the level of moral danger implicit.

Setting aside the debate about the link between weight and health, even if there is a link, it won’t be helped by shoving fat people in the closet and pretending they don’t exist or that they’re morally dangerous.  I agree with Frances that it’s much more useful, no matter how you look at the issue, to have role models that show that being fat doesn’t mean that you’re stupid or shameful.

 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 05:33 PM • (78) Comments

Okay, that was funny.

Comment #1: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/16  at  07:30 PM

If shame were the way to make people get thin, then America would be getting thinner, not fatter.  Because America certainly is going the way of shaming the shit out of fat people.

I’m fat, and you know what shame makes me want to do?  Never leave my fucking house.  It certainly doesn’t inspire me to put on light weight clothing and exert myself in a gym full of people, or go running down the street and inviting catcalls from cars.

Comment #2: Denise  on  07/16  at  07:49 PM

“Because America certainly is going the way of shaming the shit out of fat people.”

My brother in law is really bad about this. I have a big gut even though I get quite a bit of exercise (too much wine, beer & a bit of a foodie) and he’s always got some smart ass remark about “When I’m due”. He is very athletic and has like -20% body fat. I can take it & just tell him to fuck off but it pisses me off when he does it to his daughters.

Comment #3: Mark  on  07/16  at  07:59 PM

By being able to contextualize their issues in ways that don’t cause guilt or lowered self-esteem, they feel they have more control over the issue.

I’m convinced that the more shame people feel about eating, the more they eat.

Comment #4: keshmeshi  on  07/16  at  08:02 PM

So when disingenuous sexists start to bellyache about the dangers of letting fat women out in public, they get traction, because it’s becoming increasingly acceptable to suggest that not being perfectly healthy is a moral failing that should be punished with social disapproval, shaming, ostracism, and lowered access to society.

This gets particularly nettlesome with regard to Benjamin because far too many Americans think that shaming people for their unhealthy habits is the primary job function of the Surgeon General.  It’s like appointing, say, Keith Richards to be drug czar.

Comment #5: Olgierd  on  07/16  at  08:08 PM

I wish there was a way to change the dialogue on this issue completely.  There was a great story on NPR last week about California’s central valley, which grows most of the fresh produce for the west but has some of the highest levels of obesity in the nation.  Leaving aside the weight scare, it turns out that people there have little or no access to the fresh food that they produce, most of their streets have no sidewalks, and there is no place to safely play outdoors or pursue sporting activities.  The community is designed to be sick.  If the new surgeon general addresses issues like that -issues that we can actually address as a society -and leaves off the fat shame, I’ll be really pleased.

Comment #6: Eileen  on  07/16  at  08:11 PM

Eating ‘too much’, exercising ‘too little’ and smoking are some of the purest joys available, IMO.

I like that quote from Frances Kissling, only take out the “even doctors struggle with their weight” bit. That bit, with ‘struggle’, is the nod to the idea that people (women, really, and by extension their children as Women-Adjuncts) *should* really want to be slender/non-smokers/more active/have shinier hair and whiter teeth. ‘Should’ my ass. Who cares? Grown people can do whatever damage they like to their carcasses, it’s none of my business, and I’d love to experience the same level of absolute disinterest in my own personal shenanigans.

Comment #7: mir  on  07/16  at  08:17 PM

Actually, one approach that works well with people of lower socio-economic class is to make a chronic disease, like diabetes, the McGuffin in a soap opera oriented towards their own interests, and you can scare the hell out of them without it getting shameful or personal:

From the LAT:

MARION, ALA.—The doctors had been after Loretta Ragland for years to keep her diabetes in check. Eat right. Exercise. Lose weight. She’d heard it all time and again.

And ignored it all—until she heard about Rosalyn.

Roz put off dealing with her diabetes so long, her kidneys gave out. While she was in surgery, her husband died of a massive stroke—after which it was revealed that he’d fathered a child with Roz’s best friend, Vanessa, whose alcoholic husband had recently run off, leaving her to care for a suicidal daughter and an obese toddler.

Ragland first heard Roz and Vanessa bemoaning their plights on the radio. She soon realized she was listening to fictional characters in a drama.

No matter. She could identify.

Ragland, 57, cheered when Roz began taking exercise walks. Then she, too, started walking around her hometown of Huntsville, in northern Alabama. She gave up soda. She joined a gym. She quit sweets in solidarity with Vanessa.

“When I heard it from a doctor, I wouldn’t really listen,” Ragland said. “But when I heard it on the show, I was like, ‘Wow, maybe there is something to this.’ “


Link

BodyLove:

BodyLove began in 2002 as a 10 episode, one radio station program. Through funding from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, it grew to an 83 episode, 15 station project and is now broadcast in Alabama, Georgia, Florida and Mississippi. Each 15-minute episode is usually followed by a 45-minute talk period where listeners speak to local health experts for information and/or referals to local health resources. The talk-period is also used to highlight local health events, clinics and other community health promotion opportunities.

The stories in BodyLove center around 3 families in a community. Vanessa and Roz operate the beauty salon called BodyLove. Characters struggle to prevent or manage chronic diseases prevalent among African-American adults. While the primary focus is diabetes, the stories also address hypertension, stroke, kidney disease, depression, alcoholism, gun violence and other critical issues. The program is based upon the principles of “entertainment-education” that have been recommended for reaching audiences not reached by traditional health education and health promotion messages.

The primary mechanism for changing behavior is modeling by the characters within the stories of BodyLove. Rosalyn and Fadelia, two main characters, manage their diabetes in very different ways that have life threatening consequences. By demonstrating strategies for changing from unhealthy to healthy behaviors, BodyLove increases confidence among listeners that they can attempt such changes. BodyLove motivates listeners to change.

Five of the current stations in Alabama report a listenership of 20,000 per quarter hour during the period that they broadcast BodyLove.

Comment #8: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  07/16  at  08:18 PM

Eileen, not only all the factors you mention, but in addition, it gets into the 100s frequently during the summer time, so you have to exercise outdoors in the early morning, or around sunset, and since it’s a dry heat unless you’re adapted as I am, you’ll need plenty of fluid because you’re gonna sweat a lot.

Comment #9: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  07/16  at  08:21 PM

I’ve had the worst health care from doctors who are thin (especially male ones); it’s so obvious they think my weight is a moral failing and I just need to try harder.  While, of course, completely ignoring that all of my tests show that I’m probably healthier than they are - low cholesterol, good blood pressure, no diabetes indicators.

Eileen, I heard that report on NPR and it broke my heart.  All those people here is, “It’s your own fault you’re overweight and/or unhealthy”, and yet everything in their environment is designed to keep them that way.

Comment #10: NobleExperiments  on  07/16  at  08:33 PM

Mir, while agreeing with you, I think it’s statistically true that most people struggle and don’t have the fuck it all attitude. But agree—-fuck it all is your right.

Comment #11: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/16  at  09:07 PM

I sure don’t think she looks all that heavy for a middle aged person.  Were they expecting Katte Moss as surgeon general?

Comment #12: rea  on  07/16  at  09:11 PM

Yes, yes, yes! Thank you. Why can’t people ever seem to work up this much moral indignation over something practical? Shaming tactics don’t work for the same reason the death penalty doesn’t work: no one’s a perfect judge, and it’s really easy to find yourself responsible for irreversible damage. On top of that, feeling free to shame a whole category of people with impunity is morally bad for you.

Comment #13: Katie Taylor  on  07/16  at  09:24 PM

Yeah, she looks like a perfectly average middle-aged person to me. It always amazes me just how fucking stupid people can be, and it really seems like Americans in general have gotten noticeably dumber in the last 15-20 years. Jocelyn Elders isn’t exactly a size 0, either, but I don’t remember anyone getting all angsty about her weight back in the ‘90s.

Comment #14: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  07/16  at  09:33 PM

I guess it feels like many people ‘struggle’ because they feel they should, not because they actually want to. The pressure to not want to be fat/a smoker/et al is as strong as the pressure to not be fat/a smoker/et al. If a woman who is fat is “bad”, then a woman who is fat and doesn’t pay lip service to the idea that she should not be is a monster. Constantly apologizing for being exactly what we are, and constantly seeking to become “better” is a basic expectation of all women.

Comment #15: mir  on  07/16  at  09:37 PM

Regina Benjamin?  I’d hit it ... *

* I am really getting sick and tired of the hang ups with body image in this society.  The above is intended as a bit of snark which juxtaposes the jerk-off frat boy attitude which we have too much of with the body image negativity we also have too much of in a way which reverses our usual expectations.  Enough with the moral judgments about weight already!  (But I seriously would hit it, really.)

Comment #16: Richard Goblin  on  07/16  at  09:43 PM

Actually, she looks just like I’d want a surgeon general to look: friendly, down-to-earth, smart, and kind. And she has a pretty kick ass backstory.

Comment #17: t-ster  on  07/16  at  09:44 PM

Wow, my head’s up my ass.  I didn’t even notice Benjamin’s weight in the few photos I’ve seen of her.  I was too blinded by her run-down of achievements and compassionate platform.  She doesn’t even look “obese”, morbidly or otherwise.  She looks like an average-sized middle-aged woman whose health status is undetectable based on a cursory glance. Benjamin = weight; how do people even get there? 

Like I said—my head’s up my ass. Thanks for spotlighting my head-up-assedness.  I’ll know better next time, Amanda, and beat those concernies to the punch.

Comment #18: Ranylt  on  07/16  at  09:47 PM

Well as someone who has been addicted to eating badly, the only times I’ve lost weight/been healthier have been times when I felt good about myself…because I had accomplished something, or because I was just in a healthier mental place.

You know what the absolute strongest factor was for me to eat healthy in the last 10 years? Going to Ladies Rock Camp, learning to play bass in a band, write a song, and getting up and singing it in front of 300 people. After I did that, I felt like such a badass that a huge amount of my body image issues dropped away…and I stopped overeating, ironically, and lost some weight. I’m not thin now, either, but this summer I bought a swimsuit and went swimming for the first time years. It was marvelous.

Shame isolates, it creates the need for crutches, and it certainly makes any addiction more attractive. Being accepted and accepting yourself is more effective than a million diet books, but it’s a very individual thing, and you can’t buy it at Jenny Craig.

Comment #19: emjaybee  on  07/16  at  09:58 PM

Jesus Christ.  I guarantee it’s a bunch of 260 pound, 50 year old white guys with guts the size of beer kegs delighting in pointing out her weight issues.

Comment #20: Wallace  on  07/16  at  10:26 PM

She’s fat?

Seriously?

She looks like a reasonably fit person in her 50s. 

I seriously hate wingnuts.

Comment #21: Punditus Maximus  on  07/16  at  10:32 PM

it pisses me off when he does it to his daughters.

Goddamn, I can’t imagine what it’s like to watch in realtime as a parent develops his kid’s future emotional traumas.

Comment #22: Dan  on  07/16  at  10:40 PM

I should know—-when I got a little puffy during college, my then-boyfriend told me I should lose weight, for my health of course, even though I far short of the weight that you need to be in order to be considered overweight.  Of course, being far from stupid, I knew that meant, “your size 10 butt is embarrassing to me”, and have no doubt that similar statements made online about fat women, or even not-super-skinny women, are in the same vein.

And they are nothing new.  Here’s an outtake from “The Fun Of Getting Thin”, by Samuel Blythe, published (I believe) in 1912.

A fat man is a joke; a fat woman is two jokes—-one on herself and the other on her husband.

How’s that for an eternal verity?  It’s nice to know that some things never change.

Comment #23: bekabot  on  07/16  at  10:45 PM

Eileen, not only all the factors you mention, but in addition, it gets into the 100s frequently during the summer time, so you have to exercise outdoors in the early morning, or around sunset,

And then there’s the level orange or red air pollution warnings, telling us that people with “compromised health” or respiratory issues shouldn’t go outside.

I suspect there’s a fairly high correlation between “people who need to get more exercise” and “people with respiratory problems/poor health”...

Comment #24: Dorothy  on  07/16  at  10:49 PM

There are a lot of “correlations” between weight and long-term health.  There is not much good work at all that demonstrates any sort of causal path between the two.  In fact, there are diseases that make you both fat and sick - such as polycystic ovarian disease - where many women lose weight with appropriate treatment.  The lack of established causality is further demonstrated by “fit fats” - people who get a lot of exercise and eat healthy but are still “obese”.  Fit Fats lack the risk factors that are typically associated with “obesity”, and they also drop dead at the same rate as active, non-obese people.

Regina Benjamin has chosen to live and work in areas where diet can be poor and not terribly varied.  It is not a surprise that she might share in that risk.  However, she looks like a pretty average-sized woman - and there is no requirement for exemplary or HAWT!!!! to be a medical leader.  The problem her lies in the idea that every woman can and should be as thin as a 20 year old model or starlet.  Nevermind that those women have to pursue those looks as a full-time job to maintain them.

Comment #25: Ms Kate  on  07/16  at  11:10 PM

Same, exact sentiment as expressed by Ranylt.  I was so impressed by her credentials, I didn’t even notice her appearance very much, except that she seemed like a healthy and attractive middle aged woman.

Comment #26: happyfungirl  on  07/16  at  11:10 PM

Excuse me? This isn’t JUST about weight and gender - it’s about RACE. Believe me, if she weighed 125 pounds and was both model-gorgeous and fashionable, the nay-sayers would find something else to complain about. If nothing else, they would go on about “pushy”, “intellectually weak because not an Ivy-League graduate or a fancy specialist with a Park Avenue practice”, “unrealistic bleeding-heart”, etc.

Comment #27: NancyP  on  07/16  at  11:19 PM

...but it pisses me off when he does it to his daughters.

.

...my then-boyfriend told me I should lose weight, for my health of course,

Would someone tell me what fucking planet these men live on? The rudeness, the near-cruelty of it, Jesus, it simply flabbergasts me some are so personally judgmental and horribly mean.

Pleasant manners and being nice are a big deal, and we are much the worse as a people for casual acceptance of this weight cruelty. It’s never cool or okay.

Amanda, I quit smoking, 115 days. I’m in the best shape of my life, too, but still down with cyclical vomiting syndrome.  We’ll see what happens.

Comment #28: paradox  on  07/16  at  11:30 PM

And then there’s the level orange or red air pollution warnings, telling us that people with “compromised health” or respiratory issues shouldn’t go outside.

The saddest thing is that it happened in less than 40 years from when I was a child and could see the Sierra Nevadas year-round, to where they are routinely in haze during the summertime, and in the winter you need either strong winds or a bit of rainfall to get rid of said haze.

Gotta go walk now, that’s how I keep my cholesterol down.  Right now, according to a local weather site, the ozone level is unhealthy for sensitive groups, so far, that excludes me for now. wink

Comment #29: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  07/16  at  11:34 PM

Ranyit, you’re not alone. Until I read the trolling, I didn’t notice either.

Comment #30: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/17  at  12:22 AM

Para, in their mind, they’re trying to help, for real. They know that thin women have an easier go of it, and want that for you. In a lot of ways, it’s not different from the pressure to marry or get a “useful” degree. Of course, it’s ridiculous to assume a woman doesn’t know she’s expected to be thin.

Comment #31: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/17  at  12:30 AM

Most of the people that I have met that have been able to stick with good habits about eating and exercising have been men.  “Just do it” they tell me, not realizing that I have a more stressful job than they have that takes more of my energy or that some people need more variety in their diet than the same sandwich for lunch every day. 

Then there are the people that think there are acceptable and unacceptable reasons for being fat - like having a kid.  We all face the same discrimination, but because I was overweight all my life, I don’t have an excuse I guess.  It’s bullshit.  Frankly, I tend to eat and live healthier than most thin people I know.  A so-called overweight friend of mine eats incredibly healthy and works out almost twice a day, but I’m sure she’s been called unhealthy too.

Comment #32: Ursula  on  07/17  at  12:36 AM

After completing her family-practice residency in Georgia, Benjamin decided to return to her south Alabama roots, establishing a solo practice in Bayou La Batre. It really was a one-woman show: She secured the capital, hired the contractor, and equipped the facility on her own. For years afterward she moonlighted in emergency rooms and nursing homes to earn the funds necessary to keep the clinic open.

At the same time, she was pursuing an M.B.A. at Tulane University, which she received in 1991. “My goal is to find a way to provide the best possible medical care to patients who often can’t afford health insurance,” she says, “and the only way to do that was to learn how to run a business efficiently.”

Fat shaming is used to diminish the target.  She is being fat shamed because she is fucking scare to the status quo.  Never mind that a lot fewer people might develop conditions which predispose them to obesity or contribute to obesity or are exacerbated by obesity if we have universal health care access!  Oh no - fewer women to insult and belittle using the FAT attack when they demonstrate intelligence and fortitude!

Comment #33: Ms Kate  on  07/17  at  12:42 AM

So, with that in mind, what I find interesting about the “OMG HEALTH” concern trolling that comes from a belief that only women can suffer from health problems that correlate to obesity is how much they depend on the moralizing of health that’s so damn trendy in our society.

Remember how that pathetic narcissist MeMe Roth came on the scene with her one-woman obesity foundation to denounce American Idol Jordin Sparks’ size 14-or-so figure as a ‘bad influence on young women’, but it was only a year before the very obese Ruben Studdard was the winner.

Part of the reason for this is insurance companies and their willingness to deny coverage based on personal habits, and conservatives are pretty open about their fears that health care reform will mean you get the same coverage whether you smoke or eat Twinkies or don’t.

And I think this tracks with their attitude toward sex.  It’s fine for Mark Sanford and John Ensign to have active sex lives but not women, gays, or poor people.  Similarly, Rush Limbaugh can gorge himself on steaks and Hillbilly Heroin and John Boehner can chain-smoke to his heart’s content (or discontent, as it were) but that’s fine because they are above such trifles as having to live by the standards they will excoriate you for failing to live up to.  I never listen to Rush but it would not surprise me at all if on at least one occasion he railed against providing “socialized medicine” to people who overeat or abuse drugs.

Comment #34: DonnaDiva  on  07/17  at  01:22 AM

She’s fat? Never noticed.

I guess some people just have to find something to say.

Comment #35: Bacopa  on  07/17  at  01:36 AM

i have told this story before, so i will sum it up:
i have displaysia of the (right) hip. had debilitating leg issues my entire life. was told by every doctor until i was 30 that it was all my head - for my 30th BDay, my right leg just quit. quit working. which is when i found out about the displaysia - a doctor was willing to believe i wasn’t crazy or lying.

i was sent to a neurologist to make sure there wasn’t any nerve damage before surgeries. there was - over 20% nerve damage in my right leg (plus other things wrong) and some of the nerves were *dead*

then the fucker sat there and proceeded to tell me that i hurt for one sole, single reason: that i was fat. i reminded him about the nerve damage, which he said happened because i was fat. i reminded him about the displaysia, which is said happened because i was fat.

i was *BORN* with my hip fucked up. and i wasn’t overweight until recently, *because* i can’t even walk i gained weight, not BEFORE it got this bad. and even NOW i am not very overweight - i’m around 25 pounds overweight, and 50 years ago that wasn’t considered overweight at all.

that is how fucked up the fat-shaming is - a doctor *looking* at issues that need surgery to correct, that are congenital defects, telling me that the reason i have the problem i was born with is because because i am *fat*. and sitting there insisting that all i had to do to stop hurting is lose weight - and telling me to exercise through the pain (surgeon flat out told me if i tried to do any exercises that involved my hip, i would damage it more, that it was so messed up walking to the bathroom was tearing up the lining of my hip). because all he saw or cared about was my weight - the rest? didn’t matter so long as i lost weight. which i can’t *do* until i am allowed to exercise, which i am not allowed to do yet.

Comment #36: denelian  on  07/17  at  04:33 AM

Admittedly, weight is a serious catch-22 for anyone with mobility injuries.  Gotta take it off to keep from getting more damage, can’t take it off because you’re suffering reduced mobility.

We seriously need to get those stupid pills they were testing on rats out on the market, anything to turn off the fat storage when we don’t need it.  I say this knowing I’m the last person who’d get them, and that they prolly won’t work for everyone, but we really need better controls.

The result of many mobility injuries - I’d bet most to all - is bad weight gain.  Stress fats.  And yet, you can’t not eat, else you won’t heal!  It’s so fucked up the order in which we’re worrying about this stuff.

Comment #37: Crissa  on  07/17  at  06:53 AM

Shaming never works, in fact, I believe shaming often makes people put on weight even more. I’ve seen it on myself - when I was a child, schoolmates ridiculed me as “fat” because they saw I was sensitive to that. This made me into an even worse bookworm than I’d previously been, I started to shun sports, and as a result, I really put on some weight during puberty. I only lost it when I started to feel good about myself again. I distinctly remember how amazed I was when, one day, I looked at my old school photos and realized that as a little kid, I was actually pretty slim. It came as a shock.

While there are legitimate health concerns regarding obesity, I think, too, that much of this obesity crisis and especially the moral dimension we give to weight is absurd. People who smoke or drive recklessly are never subjected to such disgust and ridicule as people, especially women, who are fat and - imagine that! - have the cheek to eat in public.

I definitely think that the larger dimension of society lifestyle is more to blame than the lifestyle choices of individuals - because very often, these are not “choices” at all. I’m from a post-communist country, and while the obesity stats here are not pretty, it was usual that people gained weight in their middle age, due to general unhealthy eating habits (“Pork on every table, every day!” sounded pretty good to generations who went through the Great Depression, the war, and the post-war scarcity.) However, child obesity was quite rare. Nowadays, people are starting to care about healthier eating habits, but on the other hand, the number of obese and overweight children is said to be going up. Kids spend less time playing outside, especially in cities, because the news started to publicize all these crime and abduction stories, and I fear we might be sliding towards the same unfortunate results as other countries. People got more cars. Fast food joints like McDonald’s came (before the revolution, fast food wasn’t very big and especially, it wasn’t marketed to children, like McDonald’s is). Television actually started to be interesting to children, because now there are kid’s programmes that run throughout the day. People got richer, so kids started to get more sweets, and more pocket money to buy sweets on top of that. It is no surprise that this translated to higher rates of obesity, and “morals” have very little to do with that. I definitely do not wish for the return of pre-1989 days, but it’s ridiculous to blame individuals for a larger society shift that is very hard to resist, without acknowledging the outer pressures.

Comment #38: Majoranka  on  07/17  at  08:24 AM

It’s okay for men to have appetites, and to indulge those appetites. It’s not okay for women to respond straightforwardly to their appetites. Compare how people can be expected to react to a teenage boy sitting down with a huge pile of meat and starch and a teenage girl sitting down with same. In my experience, people almost fall over themselves to comment positively on the boy’s eating; the most polite they can be expected to be towards the girl is to avert their eyes slightly and say nothing.

Regina Benjamin has chosen to live and work in areas where diet can be poor and not terribly varied. This! Also, when you give your all to that kind of job, you don’t have a lot of time left over, and when you gain the trust of an oppressed-as-fuck community you eat what the people you work with eat, at least socially.

Comment #39: purpleshoes  on  07/17  at  09:53 AM

Majoranka, the number of “obese or overweight” individuals isn’t really going up, and hasn’t gone up significantly since the late 90s when they changed the BMI standards.

For those of you unaware, BMI is a pile of bullshit. Personally I was “healthy/normal” when I could fit into a size 6, and “overweight” at a size 8. I’m now a size 12 and “obese.” We’ve literally defined ‘not-skinny’ as ‘fat.’

Comment #40: Ashley  on  07/17  at  09:57 AM

Eh. Reminds me of a comic about smoking, I only found two panels of it on the internet but they’re pretty representative.
It involves a smoker being abused by everyone around him (ew, a smoker ! take your poison elsewhere !). Here the woman is commenting on how sucking is an infantile reflex and smokers are repressed freaks; the guy in the second panel comments on the effects of smoking on sexual potency (I’m sure you can get the gist of his opinion there).
In the end the smoker can’t take it anymore and hangs himself. And the others go, “Tobacco claims another victim !”; “It got him in the throat…”

Comment #41: Caravelle  on  07/17  at  10:09 AM

On top of that, there’s an increasing tendency, if you do get sick, to start looking for what you did to deserve it.

This is NOT a new tendency.  Blaming it on fat, or smoking is new.  However, from time immemorial, you must have sinned somehow for God to punish you with disease like that.

Comment #42: Siobhan  on  07/17  at  10:09 AM

I suspect there’s a fairly high correlation between “people who need to get more exercise” and “people with respiratory problems/poor health”…

Absolutely! I have both asthma and multiple sclerosis, which means I can’t get overheated. Exercising especially in the summertime is damned near impossible for me, I can’t breathe, and my MS symptoms act up. I happen to have a low BMI - I’m 50 years old and a size four. In addition to the problems mentioned above, being small all my life means less weight bearing, so I also have osteoporosis already even though I haven’t hit menopause yet. And high cholesterol. And I do eat a crappy diet, mostly frozen stuff because I hate to cook

On the other hand, my sisters, one “obese” and the other “morbidly obese” exercise regularly and are vegetarians. And they are both in excellent health. But they take crap for their weight, and no one says a word to me, because I look “healthy” meaning I’m slender. It’s utter nonsense.

Comment #43: Broce  on  07/17  at  10:43 AM

It involves a smoker being abused by everyone around him

That sounds more like all of the conservative persecution whining we have been hearing from Palin and others, with a suitably dramatic ending.

Comment #44: Ms Kate  on  07/17  at  11:28 AM

I think the majority of fat-shaming is directed at women, not men.  In our society, women who dare to appear in public as fat are targets, and they know it.  How dare they not make themselves into an image more acceptable to patriarchal mores?  I do not remember anyone getting upset about C. Everett Koop being a poor role model as Surgeon General due to his weight, and, as I recall, he was at least as “overweight” as Dr. Benjamin, if not more.

I also think economic status comes into play.  It is actually much more expensive to “eat healthy,” than to eat fast foods.  Next time you shop for groceries consider how much fresh fruits and vegetables cost (as well as their shelf life) compared to a couple of burgers, fries, or tacos at a fast food joint.  For example, I love raspberries, and they are a very healthy food to eat, but they can cost anywhere from $2.50 to $4.00 for a very small amount, which lasts only a couple of days before they begin to get moldy.

Comment #45: blondie  on  07/17  at  11:42 AM

On the most recent edition of the podcast Pal Cast, PalMD talked about a quackish “philosophy” of medicine that uses the claim of whole person approaches (which all decent doctors use anyway) to exclude people who can’t or won’t lose weight, quit smoking, or get more exercise.

An aside about this (and I’ll note that I haven’t listened to the PalCast yet).  I know a guy who practices Traditional Chinese Medicine, and one of his policies is not to prescribe herbs to people who don’t first fix their lousy diets.  This isn’t about excluding people because of moral failings, it’s about not throwing fine-tuned remedies at somebody in need of coarse adjustment. 

Of course, any practitioner who follows this should assume the responsibility of helping the person with get past the obstacles to treatment.  You can say “before I prescribe this, we need to get you to stop smoking” and then work with the patient to help them quit; you can’t say “get out of my office and don’t come back ‘til you’ve quit.”

Comment #46: Cris  on  07/17  at  11:53 AM

<a >Francesca came up with a good post on this awhile ago.</a>  Yeah, a <i>fashion blog</a> that talks about fat shaming, race, gender, etc.  I love them. 

ANYway, there are elements of sexism (obvious), race (not so obvious) and class (really not obvious) in all of this fat shaming nonsense.  We are unique—it’s our poor and working class folks in this country who are heavier (and to tie in with the conversation, the ones who smoke as well).  And there has long been a very popular social narrative to paint the poor and working classes (and by that I mean the *actual* working class—not the middle class wankers who like to think they are the mythical salt-of-the-earth working class but who react like they’ve been touched by lepers when they actually have to share an elevator with a real working class person) as somehow morally inferior simply for being poor and working class and not being the American Success Story(tm) from the Horatio Alger novels.  Being able to point to their bad habits of smoking and eating craptastic processed cheap foods as proof of their moral inferiority makes such a nice, neat package of judgemental bullshit—how can they resist?

Comment #47: ChristinaM33  on  07/17  at  12:15 PM

It is actually much more expensive to “eat healthy,” than to eat fast foods.  Next time you shop for groceries consider how much fresh fruits and vegetables cost (as well as their shelf life) compared to a couple of burgers, fries, or tacos at a fast food joint.

I guess I need to see the numbers on this, but I find that junk food isn’t nearly as inexpensive as people claim it is.  I always walk away from the fast food counter having paid more than I expected to. I know last time I got KFC for two, it rang up at 15 bucks.  Maybe I’m just ordering the wrong things, but that same price would have gotten us two pan-fried catfish with shiitake sauce and rice pilaf at the nearby “fancy” restaurant.

Same with produce. You cite the price of raspberries, which I’ll grant are often priced at a premium.  But in general, I find the price of a cart full of fresh produce is comparable to a small basket of canned soup and frozen pizzas.  The price of some fruits and vegetables (especially asparagus and tomatoes) fluctuates with seasonal availability, but others (like apples and lettuce) remain pretty near constant year-round.

Economic status definitely comes in to play, but I really think the common wisdom that processed and prepared foods are cheap and easy, while whole foods are a costly, time-consuming luxury, is more a matter of perception—a perception carefully cultivated by huge marketing departments.

Comment #48: Cris  on  07/17  at  12:18 PM

I disagree, Cris.  For $5.00, I can get 2 boxes of mac & cheese, a bit of cheap hamburger meat and enough Ramen for lunch the next day—enough for 4 people.

I can’t buy a bag of oranges for $5.00.

Comment #49: ChristinaM33  on  07/17  at  12:23 PM

It didn’t occur to me that Dr. Benjamin is fat (to some people).  I never thought anything about her weight at all, only her fantastice resume.  If only more people would focus on her accomplishments and intelligence instead of the size of her dress.

Comment #50: Olivia  on  07/17  at  12:32 PM

Two Things…
1) Overheard someone of some talk radio show talking about this & then mentioning that Sotomayor is diabetic & does not take good care of herself, and how shocking it is that nobody is taking this into consideration. How do we know she doesn’t take care of herself & how does that matter? You’d think the right would want her to be unhealthy so they aren’t stuck with her for 25 years.

2) To show you how you can never can tell who’s unhealthy- I’m 25, five foot flat, & 100 pounds. My mother is 55, 5’1, myabe 190 - we have the same cholesterol.  Being thin does not equal being healthy. And being unhealthy does mean you are some out of control slovenly pig.

Comment #51: AmandaPanda  on  07/17  at  12:46 PM

Fat?  That’s fat?  You gotta be shittin’ me.

Comment #52: Magis  on  07/17  at  12:46 PM

Cris “I know last time I got KFC for two, it rang up at 15 bucks.  Maybe I’m just ordering the wrong things, but that same price would have gotten us two pan-fried catfish with shiitake sauce and rice pilaf at the nearby “fancy” restaurant.”

Jesus Christ, I wanna live where you live.  You might be able to find a dish like the catfish one for $15 per, but not for two.  Might. 

Fresh foods are more expensive.  Not to mention that grocery stores in cities, particularly in poorer areas, frequently don’t stock much by way of fresh produce at all, and what they do have sucks.  I’m thinking the difference between the Safeway by my place out in the suburbs with a decent selection, and the Safeway by a friend’s apartment.  The Safeway by his place has next to nothing.  It’s in an area with a poorer population by and large.

And just try to go to Whole Foods for stuff.  There’s a reason people call it “Whole Paycheck.”  I love their selection and quality, but *I* can’t afford to shop there often.  I can’t imagine someone living on minimum wage with kids being able to afford it.

Comment #53: GeekGirlsRule  on  07/17  at  01:15 PM

What purpleshoes said. Of course men are fat-shamed too, but the double-slam on women is that they got fat by having improper appetites. Women are supposed to eat salads and steamed chicken breast and leave things like steak to the menz.

Sotomayor developed diabetes when she was what, nine years old? Yeah, big moral failing on her part. Jesus.

Comment #54: mythago  on  07/17  at  01:25 PM

Sotomayor developed diabetes when she was what, nine years old?

Yeah, someone here REALLY doesn’t understand Diabetes.  Type 1, or juvenile diabetes (although it does develop in adults, albeit rarely) is COMPLETELY different from Type II, or adult diabetes.

Comment #55: Siobhan  on  07/17  at  01:50 PM

Yeah, someone here REALLY doesn’t understand Diabetes.  Type 1, or juvenile diabetes (although it does develop in adults, albeit rarely) is COMPLETELY different from Type II, or adult diabetes.

And type II diabetes isn’t some moral judgment on high, either, although people love to use it as a stick.  My husband was diagnosed right before he turned 40.  He was fairly moderate in his diet and not overweight.  My dad is a serious sugar fiend - no diabetes.  Furthermore, my husband started eating huge amounts of food, particularly starches, right before his diagnosis: with untreated type II, you can’t get glucose to your cells very well, so you will be enormously hungry even with a full stomach.

Comment #56: RP  on  07/17  at  02:03 PM

http://www.davesdaily.com/pictures/302-fukitol.htm

Comment #57: KMac  on  07/17  at  02:26 PM

I was so glad that when I was misdiagnosed with a fatal condition, it was really the kind that you can’t blame anyone for.  Also, yay for not dying!  There’s almost nothing that I was ever exposed to that clearly causes brain cancer.  For some reason, there’s a significant correlation between living near a cranberry bog and developing a brain tumor, though.  My only guess is runoff of horrible chemicals used in raising cranberries.

Comment #58: saraeanderson  on  07/17  at  04:08 PM

For those of you unaware, BMI is a pile of bullshit. Personally I was “healthy/normal” when I could fit into a size 6, and “overweight” at a size 8. I’m now a size 12 and “obese.” We’ve literally defined ‘not-skinny’ as ‘fat.’

Heh.

And somehow, I have a BMI of 19, and I wear a size 6-8 (pants) nowadays.

My body stores ALL my fat in my butt, belly and thighs.

Comment #59: hp  on  07/17  at  04:28 PM

I’m probably biased as I’ve never struggled with weight and am able to smoke occasionally (a few a month) without getting addicted, but I’ve always felt bad being a burden on other people, taxpayers or otherwise, and I wonder how that sentiment is to be addressed.  There seems to be two issues being conflated here:

(1) it’s really hard to quit smoking or stay thin, and
(2) people don’t have a basis to feel aggrieved at being burdened.

I can agree that (1) seems true for many people, but I don’t think that implies (2).  Obviously I don’t agree with the shaming that goes on, but I think people in general feel it’s a good thing to not be an unnecessary burden on others.  And while I don’t think there should be societal or legal sanctions on fat people or smokers, personally I would feel bad being so reckless in the face of scarcity.  Do other people feel this way?

Comment #60: Tim P.  on  07/17  at  05:28 PM

Cris “I know last time I got KFC for two, it rang up at 15 bucks.  Maybe I’m just ordering the wrong things, but that same price would have gotten us two pan-fried catfish with shiitake sauce and rice pilaf at the nearby “fancy” restaurant.”

Jesus Christ, I wanna live where you live.  You might be able to find a dish like the catfish one for $15 per, but not for two.  Might.

Yeah, I’d like to be there, too!  The least expensive catfish dinner in town here is the one at the VFW on Friday nights - $12, and they don’t do too a bad job.  Restaurant?  $24 at Real Seafood - when they offer it. 

Fresh foods are more expensive.  Not to mention that grocery stores in cities, particularly in poorer areas, frequently don’t stock much by way of fresh produce at all, and what they do have sucks.  I’m thinking the difference between the Safeway by my place out in the suburbs with a decent selection, and the Safeway by a friend’s apartment.  The Safeway by his place has next to nothing.  It’s in an area with a poorer population by and large.

This really seems to vary by region and season.  During the summer months, I can drop $100 at the Farmer’s Market and have to engage in a massive fridge overhaul to stuff it all in there.  That same $100 buys about half of that at the supermarket, no matter the season, and less still in other towns.

Comment #61: MaggieB  on  07/17  at  06:31 PM

@ Tim P (1) it’s really hard to quit smoking or stay thin, and
(2) people don’t have a basis to feel aggrieved at being burdened.

I can agree that (1) seems true for many people, but I don’t think that implies (2).  Obviously I don’t agree with the shaming that goes on, but I think people in general feel it’s a good thing to not be an unnecessary burden on others.  And while I don’t think there should be societal or legal sanctions on fat people or smokers, personally I would feel bad being so reckless in the face of scarcity.  Do other people feel this way?

Har. No shaming but OMG YOU ARE AN UNNECESSARY BURDEN, RECKLESS IN THE FACE OF SCARCITY.

Is this the ‘fats and the smokers are taking my hard-earned tax dollars’? Because if it is I’m going to insist that you, sir, stop jaywalking, speeding, eating red meat and suppressing your anger. I’M not payin for YOUR third colonoscopy when you’re all brokeass down the line. Haven’t you heard? There is scarcity. You should feel bad.

Comment #62: mir  on  07/17  at  07:33 PM

I completely agree that shame never works. While it’s obvious that there would be fewer fat people around if we all ate better and exercised more, we should be promoting the message that you should eat well and exercise regardless of whether or not you ever become thin. Setting thinness up as the goal makes people feel like they’re wasting their time jogging or lifting weights if they’re not losing pounds, regardless of the health benefits.

I’m not fat and never have been what is considered overweight, at least not according to BMI, but regardless of that I feel like a whale most of the time. When Britney Spears had that shitty VMA performance and everyone was saying how fat she was, I almost died. I’m not overweight but am considerably fatter than she was when she gave that performance (if you want to call it that). I think that people believe that fat-shaming thin celebrities like Britney Spears and Mischa Barton or whoever will make the rest of us fatty fats slim down quickly out of embarrassment or something. It’s ridiculous. The way it makes me feel is that if THAT is fat, well then fuck it, I quit, I’ll never, ever have a presentable body so I may as well quit.

Comment #63: Jenny Dreadful  on  07/17  at  08:16 PM

Do you not feel anything at burdening others?  Is it all about you?  I can’t understand such arrogance.  I don’t think you should be sanctioned for your view, but it’s not something with which I can identify.

Comment #64: Tim P.  on  07/17  at  08:25 PM

So that’s a yes,  ‘the fats and the smokers are taking my hard-earned tax dollars’. Concern noted.

Comment #65: mir  on  07/17  at  09:16 PM

Actuallly, a lot more people would be collecting Social Security and using Medicare for other ailments if they didn’t die of smoking and fat-related diseases, so they do save us money as a society by having bad health habits, and suffer horribly when doing so, FWIW.

Comment #66: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  07/17  at  09:53 PM

Well personally, I plan on ending my life at around 70 or so, if I make it there.  I’m trying to avoid both ends of the problem.

Comment #67: Tim P.  on  07/17  at  10:50 PM

Actuallly, a lot more people would be collecting Social Security and using Medicare for other ailments if they didn’t die of smoking and fat-related diseases, so they do save us money as a society by having bad health habits, and suffer horribly when doing so, FWIW.

You are aware that fat people don’t necessarily have worse health habits than thin people, right?  Look at what Broce and AmandaPanda wrote:

I have both asthma and multiple sclerosis, which means I can’t get overheated. Exercising especially in the summertime is damned near impossible for me, I can’t breathe, and my MS symptoms act up. I happen to have a low BMI - I’m 50 years old and a size four. In addition to the problems mentioned above, being small all my life means less weight bearing, so I also have osteoporosis already even though I haven’t hit menopause yet. And high cholesterol. And I do eat a crappy diet, mostly frozen stuff because I hate to cook

On the other hand, my sisters, one “obese” and the other “morbidly obese” exercise regularly and are vegetarians. And they are both in excellent health. But they take crap for their weight, and no one says a word to me, because I look “healthy” meaning I’m slender. It’s utter nonsense.

I’m 25, five foot flat, & 100 pounds. My mother is 55, 5’1, myabe 190 - we have the same cholesterol.  Being thin does not equal being healthy. And being unhealthy does mean you are some out of control slovenly pig.

I don’t know if you were being facetious or not, but it came off as being judgmental and completely not getting the picture.

Comment #68: Genevieve  on  07/18  at  12:06 AM

he was being facetious - and using the arguments of fat-shamers *against* the fat shamers. as in, “if you are going to complain that fat people cost taxpayers more because they are more unhealthy, you can’t complain because those unhealthy people will die much sooner than more-healthy people and so cost *less* in the long wrong”. it was snark. pure snark. and, actually, kind of needed…

Comment #69: denelian  on  07/18  at  12:37 AM

yes, twas snark, pure and simple

Comment #70: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  07/18  at  01:23 AM

Okay, fine.  It seemed so similar to things I’ve read people say in all seriousness, however, and I misinterpreted.

Comment #71: Genevieve  on  07/18  at  02:57 PM

On top of that, there’s an increasing tendency, if you do get sick, to start looking for what you did to deserve it.  The problem with this, besides being inhumane, is a lot of people do the same things and get away with it.  The direct line between “wrong” behavior like poor nutrition or smoking or lack of exercise and actual punishments isn’t real.

The flip side of this is that there’s no way to prove any person’s individual disease was due to their modifiable behaviors. While it’s true that smoking drastically raises your lung cancer risk above that of a non-smoker, 10% to 15% of lung cancer cases happen to non-smokers. If you, a smoker, get lung cancer, it is impossible to say whether you were going to be in that 10-15% and get it anyway, or if you would have been fine if you’d never smoked.  Ditto with arthritis and other obesity-linked conditions like Type II—they happen to many thin people too, and you can’t point to a specific fat person and say they wouldn’t have gotten it disease anyway.

Often enough, the actual hazards of being obese aren’t even that impressive, once you start talking about absolute rather than relative risk. Say being obese increases your relative risk of getting disease X from 1/100 to 2/100. “Obesity carries a 100% greater risk of X!” is a very scary headline, but it’s mathematically equivalent to saying “Obesity increases your risk of X by 1%”. The former is enough to engender panic about the obesity crisis, the latter is yawn-inducing.

Comment #72: Emma B  on  07/20  at  12:46 AM

Well, crap. When I think I’ve found one good porn site…

Comment #73: Rebecca  on  07/20  at  11:53 AM

*that should have been in another thread! :D

Comment #74: Rebecca  on  07/20  at  12:04 PM

There are a lot of “correlations” between weight and long-term health.

Yes, and in longitudinal studies, they’re mostly positive up until a very high level of obesity.

The BMI “overweight” group has the lowest morbidity/mortality.  The lower end of the “obese” group has the same or slightly better morbidity/mortality rate than the “healthy weight” group.  The “underweight” group and the lower end of the “morbidly obese” group have the same morbidity/mortality rates.  You have to get way way up into the “obese” range before there’s a group-wide increase in morbidity/mortality rates.

Comment #75: JupiterPluvius  on  07/20  at  05:10 PM

Actually, i feel kinda bad, cuz the day after I recorded the PalCast, I made a fat person cry (that is, I made a fat person who wasn’t myself cry).  The punitive culture is so horrid that just mentioning to someone that they might need to loose weight for health reasons can devastate them.

Oh, btw, the link for the PalCast is here.

Comment #76: PalMD  on  07/20  at  11:16 PM

I would much rather live in a society where everyone weighed 250 pounds and died when they were 50, but were happy, relaxed, and didn’t judge other people based on appearance, than one in which everyone weighed 150 and lived to be 70, but were all a bunch of miserable, judgemental assholes.

Comment #77: sifl  on  07/23  at  04:40 PM
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