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Next entry: Thanks, gay marrieds! Love, straight feminists. Previous entry: Maggie Gallagher: Keeping The Government Out Of The Government’s Business

The dehumanizing language and myths around immigration

This week, I was doing some research on the surge in rhetoric about repealing the 14th amendment for the podcast,* and I have to admit that even I was astounded to hear how Fox News’ preferred nomenclature for people who immigrate here without going through the green card/citizenship channels is “illegals”.  Just “illegals”.  Not “illegal immigrants”, and of course not “undocumented immigrants” or “undocumented workers”. 

The usual anti-racist reaction to the term “illegals” is to say, “Actions are illegal, people aren’t.”  Which is a sane, accurate response.  But I have to admit, the term “illegals” causes such a gut wrench in me that this response seems inadequate.  It reminds me of another favorite term of conservatives: “illegitimate”.  Both these terms convey an argument in them, and that argument is that if you aren’t blessed by the acceptance of married paternity** or U.S. citizenship, then you are cast out, not really a full human being.  “Illegal” is a term straight out dystopian sci-fi, which loves to create dehumanizing terms to show how much a certain class of people have been pushed out of society.  The Handmaid’s Tale had the term “Unwoman” to describe women who had no sexual or reproductive value to the patriarchy and were thrown out.  In 1984, the “proles” were basically seen as animals.  In Logan’s Run, people over 35 who don’t submit to execution willfully are called “runners”.  I’m sure you can come up with a million examples.  In science fiction, the process of casting a group of people out (or targeting them for extermination), and then giving them a dehumanizing nickname is one of the most common tropes. 

“Illegals” sounds like a term straight out of this sci-fi tradition, except it’s happening in real life.  And when it comes to the treatment of undocumented immigrants, this is a sci-fi style dystopia.  Check out this story, for instance:

It started when Juana Villegas, an illegal immigrant from Mexico who was nine months pregnant, was pulled over by a police officer in a Nashville suburb for a routine traffic violation….

By the time Mrs. Villegas was released from the county jail six days later, she had gone through labor with a sheriff’s officer standing guard in her hospital room, where one of her feet was cuffed to the bed most of the time. County officers barred her from seeing or speaking with her husband.

After she was discharged from the hospital, Mrs. Villegas was separated from her nursing infant for two days and barred from taking a breast pump into the jail, her lawyer and a doctor familiar with the case said. Her breasts became infected, and the newborn boy developed jaundice, they said.

Her case became a centerpiece for an anti-shackling movement.  But now she’s being deported.

Which should be a reminder that this “anchor babies” crap is just that, crap.  The notion that there’s some widespread plot to have babies in the U.S. as anti-deportation insurance relies on an incorrect premise, namely that having a baby in the U.S.—-as Villegas did—-matters much to the authorities.  As Robin Templeton notes in The Nation, a native born citizen can’t sponsor in family members until she turns 21.  On the contrary, the trend tends to be more deporting American citizens to other countries!  After all, when the parents get deported, the child has to go with them.  The main thing the child gets from this is the right to return when she grows up.  But if she’s deported as a small child, that isn’t exactly the easiest path.  But to hear right wingers tell it—-hell, the very phrase “anchor babies” implies it—-have a baby here, and it’s gold from then on out.  Not even slightly.

*Yes, the podcast is about reproductive justice, but I see this particular issue as an extremely important one from a reproductive rights standpoint.  Establishing legal penalties to discourage child-bearing is anti-choice. E.J. Dionne was astounded that Lindsay Graham, who he characterizes as strongly “pro-life”, would describe women giving birth with the phrase “drop a baby”, but I’m not.  Seriously, when feminists point out that anti-choicers think of women as brood mares, we’re not kidding.  That racism only amplifies this shouldn’t be surprising. 

But this goes to show why the term “pro-life” is inaccurate.  Lindsay Graham is not pro-life.  He’s anti-choice. In his mind, he has the right to decide when you give birth, ladies, not you. And whether or not your uterus is put into production is unsurprisingly dependent on the skin color and ethnicity of the likely baby you’ll produce.  Tune in to the podcast to hear more in-depth analysis, with the clips carefully culled so you don’t have to wade through all the right wing muck yourself.

**Luckily, with “illegitimacy”, their squawking has almost no legal teeth to it.  Unfortunately, this isn’t true when they label someone “illegal”. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 09:46 AM • (96) Comments

Dehumanizing “them” is always the first play in the fascist playbook. Nothing new here but sadly it often works- especially in bad economic times. And we all know the potential consequences.

If we continue have a flat economy for years on end the sociopolitical consequences are likely to be catastrophic. I’m deeply worried. Many thanks to all the “moderate” assholes who gutted the stimulus bill and continue to block any meaningful effort to create jobs.

Comment #1: Steve LaBonne  on  08/05  at  11:20 AM

Another term I hear a lot used not just by conservatives, but everyone to dehumanize is “consumer.”  I hate when people call customers consumers.  The verb form “consume” is always used to refer to eating, but the noun form is used for any type of buying.  It’s like we have to keep buying shit or else we die.  The term turns people into machines.  The person I remember who used the term in the worst way was George Bush.

Comment #2: Albert Cirrus  on  08/05  at  11:21 AM

The reason pregnant Mexican women are in the country is to some extent a direct result of the difficulty of crossing the border.  Because border crossing is now deadly and expensive, it’s no longer something that’s done on a seasonal basis to get some work, then go back to Mexico, and then come back the next agricultural or roofing or whatever season.  If easily-available work visas were available for poor laborers so they could do what they need to do and we need them to do, then there would be much fewer of the very few “anchor babies” born here.  The families would be at home—in Mexico—while the wage earners would be here in the US.  Win-win for many reasons, though not perfect by any means.  Instead, our immigration laws are based on the mistaken impression that everyone who comes here to work wants to stay permanently.  Many do, and there should be a process for unskilled laborers to get citizenship.  But it doesn’t exist right now.

Here’s a handy chart from our favorite libertarian site to illustrate the nonsense of our current laws and legalistic rhetoric.

Also, on a minor note, I think it was 30 when Logan’s Run world decided to kill people off.  Wishful thinking, Amanda?

Comment #3: 3letterjon  on  08/05  at  11:28 AM

The term Illegal Immigrant never bothered because Illegal was an adjective modifying the noun of Immigrant. So the person wasn’t illegal, just their actions. And I was comfy with that because whether or not you wanted to attach jingoistic bullcrap to the term “illegal immigrant” was entirely up to you.

And I suppose I’m still comfy with the term because now we have a clear way of separating the people who are able to have a reasonable discussion of the impact of border-jumping from the people who believe that there’s some nefarious plan to out-breed white people and overthrow the government and send all the nice blonde girls down to Mexico to mow lawns or something. If you use the term “illegal immigrant,” you may still feel that we need to do something to make sure that people entering the country are doing so through legitimate channels, but if you use the term “illegals” you’re just a racist asshole looking to hate on someone.

Comment #4: Mighty Ponygirl  on  08/05  at  11:36 AM

Maybe I misread the Wikipedia site that I was using to bone up. 

Anyway, 3letter, your ideas sound good, but I have to object.  Worker visas only work if the people who get them are already treated like full human beings deserving of rights.  So, like an American working in Germany under a work visa has no problems.  But the flip side is some place like Saudi Arabia, where work visas are basically used to create a slave class with little to no income and no rights and no way to get home.  Plus, even when it was easier to be a seasonal worker, a lot of women had babies in the U.S., not because of some “anchor baby” scheme, but because babies tend to come when they come.  It’s difficult if not nearly impossible to schedule a pregnancy so that you give birth when it’s most convenient, and most people just don’t even try. 

The problem is starting with the frame that there’s any reason whatsoever to stop babies from being born here.  When you start from the assumption that white domination is valuable and should be preserved, everything you conclude from that is likely to be unjust.  You’re also conceding the premise that there is such a thing as an “anchor baby”.  You should never concede that, as it is a blatantly false premise.  Never argue based on falsehoods.  Everything you get from that is crap.

Comment #5: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/05  at  11:45 AM

The blanket assumption that everyone who comes to the US via its border with Mexico (or basically any brown-skinned person who speaks Spanish or has a certain kind of accent) is Mexican is also starting to creep onto my radar.  When I was a kid (way too young to figure out that this was really stupid), we used to call all Asian people “Chinese.”  I get the feeling that this is what’s starting to happen with “Mexican.”  (Maybe this has been happening for a long time in other parts of the country, but here in NYC it’s a new thing.  If anything, today’s “Mexican” was yesterday’s “Puerto Rican.”)

Comment #6: jTuba  on  08/05  at  12:03 PM

But the flip side is some place like Saudi Arabia, where work visas are basically used to create a slave class with little to no income and no rights and no way to get home.

And in Europe, guest worker programmes created multiple generations of second-class residents, due to the fact that there was no path to citizenship. For a variety of political and economic reasons, this was the preferred “solution” of Prince Bush and the cheap-labour neoCons.

The only sane way to approach immigration is to offer people who buy into America’s core values and who are willing to work a path to citizenship (one less saddled with bureaucratic incompetence than is the case currently, I’d add). Part of that bargain is birthright citizenship for children.

That approach is what made America a centre of innovation for more than a century, and what gave America some of its most zealous defenders. But for Know-Nothings and Teabaggers, having the right skin colour and religion and accent are the real priority.

Comment #7: Gracchus.  on  08/05  at  12:03 PM

Albert Cirrus, I’ve not been able to take “consumer” seriously as a word since I read the old “Feng Shui” RPG. “Feng Shui” was designed to replicated various styles of Hong Kong action movies, and one of the default settings was a future dystopia where everyone addressed you as “consumer.” (“How may you be assisted, consumer?”  “Are those shoes standard-issue, consumer?”  “Up against the wall, consumer!”)

Since then, I can’t hear it without thinking the global magitechnical plutocracy is coming for me…

Comment #8: Scott  on  08/05  at  12:11 PM

It’s obvious that the Reichwing won’t rest until they’ve destroyed enough of the attractive qualities of the United States that no one wants to come here.  That way they will have solved the “immigration problem” once and for all.

As our troll friend “King Water Ice” said on another thread, the “far-right” wants to end immigration.  And they want to end “diversity”, by which I understand they mean that not only are there people who shouldn’t be allowed into the country, there are people already here who need to be removed from the country.  (And I’m guessing the list of those to be removed would be quite large.)

I assume that means everyone who isn’t: white, protestant, male (I guess they’d keep some brood mares around for reproduction only), Republican/Libertarian, wealthy, etc.  Basically only people with Western European ancestry who believe the right way(s) and have screwed enough people to have money.

In a way it’s refreshing to see the masks and other facades slowly falling away to reveal the tiny shriveled hearts of so many Americans.

We are faced with some very basic choices regarding the country we will be. 

Will we be a beacon, welcoming diverse people and continuing to create and (trying to) perfect the great American stew of different colors, and different cultures, and different points of view?  A people who agree on the basic premises of our idealistic and tragically flawed founding, and want to continue to work to make us what we have always told ourselves we already are? 

Or will we be become a restricted, constricted, pinched, sour, legalistic, inflexible, unsympathetic and hard-hearted, dog-eat-dog, survival-of-the-richest, screw-the-poor, screw-the-sick, no privacy, no civil rights, jack-booted, militaristic, torture-at-will, Aryan Nation of North America, walling ourselves off from anything and everything that is not deemed “pure” enough?

It seems many of our friends on the Right have already made their choice, gods help us all…

Comment #9: MikeEss  on  08/05  at  12:15 PM

What reaction do you suggest when someone says “illegals”? It is an honest question… my dad uses it, without malice, and I think he got it from Lou Dobbs—who he ended up deciding was a racist shitbag. But the word persists in his vocabulary.

Do I just sit him down and say, “You might as well be calling them wogs”?

Comment #10: humanadverb  on  08/05  at  12:23 PM

Apologia plus nit: I love Germany.  I love the people, the way the culture makes knowledge and art central, the food and beer.  I’ve even learned to love the way they will say whatever rude ass shit comes to mind, to perfect strangers, right out in public, unprovoked.  (Don’t try to walk down a street wearing mismatched clothes or a funny haircut.)  That said,  it’s really not reasonable to hold the German guest worker program up as an example if your goal is social justice.  There are Turkish people whose families have been living in Germany for four generations now who are not citizens, have no way of becoming citizens, and are treated like absolute crap by the government and often the people.  And, though the American working in Germany would have a reasonable shot at decent treatment, s/he is not assured of such treatment.  A lot would depend on hir race, sex, sexual preferences, and the area in Germany in which she landed.  I would not advise an African American woman to move to Bavaria, for instance.

Comment #11: Heo Cwaeth  on  08/05  at  12:26 PM

Also, Gracchus types too fast!

Comment #12: Heo Cwaeth  on  08/05  at  12:30 PM

Re: #3, #5, #7… I get uncomfortable with classifying people as “citizens” or “immigrants” or “migrants” in these kinds of discussions. It creates classes, and it creates laws that treat different people differently. Worker rights, the disposition of law enforcement, etc—it really needs to stop differentiating.

The reason is that once we create subhuman classes, we start legitimizing dehumanizing violence, and that shit inevitably won’t limit itself to that subhuman class (assuming you’re okay with such a thing in the first place). Extra-legal assassination of “terrorists,” now including US citizens. Police brutality towards drug-users and “illegals,” prepare yourself for the very real possibility *you* will be tased.

It is a slippery slope, but it is true. Othering is very dangerous.

Comment #13: humanadverb  on  08/05  at  12:32 PM

“Anchor babies” exist, whether it’s a racist meme or not to call them that.  I call them “fellow citizens”, but others consider people such as Bobby Jindal and Michelle Malkin and Oliver Willis to be less-than-equal based on a novel interpretation of the 14th Amendment.

Non-citizens will never be completely equal to citizens, but non-citizens who aren’t here legally are even more likely to be abused.  That’s true here, in Germany, in Saudi Arabia, in Israel, and in Togo.  Some immigration reform would go a long way toward alleviating the many rhetorical problems of the right (and the labor left,) but good luck getting any of that from this Congress.

Comment #14: 3letterjon  on  08/05  at  12:37 PM

Logan’s Run was 30 in the movie, 21 in the book. There was a lot of paranoia about teenagers in those days, see also several episodes of ST:TOS. </pedant>

(Yes, I think I still have a copy somewhere. Why do you ask.)

Comment #15: paul  on  08/05  at  12:38 PM

That said, it’s really not reasonable to hold the German guest worker program up as an example if your goal is social justice.

As my comment at #7 above indicates, I’d agree wholeheartedly. However, Amanda was talking about a citizen of one core/OECD nation working in a peer core/OECD nation on a standard work visa, which implies a lot more options and protections for the worker. It’s at the positive extreme of the guest worker formula, with Europe being in the middle and places like KSA and Dubai approaching slavery.

BushCo liked European-style guest worker programmes precisely because they create a labour force that’s cheap and cowed, a class of resident that doesn’t have to be fully serviced by the state, and a dusky-skinned scapegoat for racist prole citizens to target. In other words, they just wanted to formalise the situation as it currently exists for undocumented workers.

Comment #16: Gracchus.  on  08/05  at  12:39 PM

Similarly, now we’re “Human Resources.” When more help is needed at a workplace, they “get more bodies.” Sheesh.

Comment #17: catfood  on  08/05  at  12:48 PM

Amanda, one more for your SF list: Paul Theroux’s O-Zone (1986), in which the main characters keep referring to the threat of “aliens” in such an ominous and dehumanized way that, given the mildly futuristic setting, it takes a while to figure out that they’re talking about human immigrants. It’s not a very successful novel I think, but it’s really good at depicting the gated-community way of thinking.

Comment #18: Hob  on  08/05  at  12:50 PM

I get uncomfortable with classifying people as “citizens” or “immigrants” or “migrants” in these kinds of discussions.

Sorry, but citizenship is one of the core Constitutional elements of this country and a sine qua non of any nation-state. Outside the anarchist community, you’ll find very few people who don’t accept that.

I’m fond of saying that the U.S. is less nation and more state, and this goes directly to how citizenship is determined. It’s not done, as KWI would have it and how its implemented even in progressive European countries, on the basis of race or language or religion or even accident of birth; rather it’s done on the simple basis of demonstrated buy-in to the law of the land (specifically the Constitution).

I’d add that, in comparison to most countries, the U.S. is extremely generous in extending as many Constitutional protections as possible to non-citizens, precisely because it’s in our interest to get more people to buy in.

It’s the people arguing the opposite, people like KWI, who are more interested in creating sub-human classes and a police apparatus meant to enforce those distinctions—a government structure that essentially rejects core Constitutional values that citizens are expected to buy into.

Comment #19: Gracchus.  on  08/05  at  12:51 PM

Immigration lawyers usually refer to their clients without papers as undocumented aliens or just aliens or just immigrants.

Comment #20: Lee  on  08/05  at  12:59 PM

Then why are Rove and Jeb Bush (who actually married an illegal) always shilling for amnesty in the media?  Why are all of the ex Bush admin people like Gerson always pushing amnesty?  Why did Bush expand so much political capitol trying to get McCain/Kennedy amnesty bill passed?

Because they finally realised that people like you and their racist base would consider them race traitors even with a gastarbeiter programme that would pander to their bigotry and sense of entitlement, but they still wanted their cheap labour and their new consumers. As beneficiaries in good standing of the 4th Purpose/HR Culture, Bush and his ilk don’t care about a person’s colour as long as the money he’s using to consume their products or the money he’s saving them on payroll is green.

What do you think is gonna happen to the GOP in the unlikely case your lot take over, when those good ol’ boys take their money and political consultants elsewhere? You’re only useful to them as marks and suckers, and even the Koch family who laid down all that Tea Party astroturf will pull out the minute you start messing with their cash flow.

On the plus side, if that happens we’ll get to see GOP political ads with even lower production values and more ham-handed messaging than the “gather thy armies” and “cowboy with a rifle” ones.

Comment #21: Gracchus.  on  08/05  at  01:02 PM

Gracchus at 21: Exactly, the Constitution has been repeatedly held to apply to everybody in the United States equally. Now often this is more true in theory than practice but at least the theory is there. One friend believes that the natural born citizenship requirement of the Presidency shouldn’t be waived just so that there is at least one difference between those born here and not.

Comment #22: Lee  on  08/05  at  01:02 PM

Ah yes, with all that massive anti-Catholic sentiment on the right these days you just know that we are going for a purely Protestant country.

Tim LaHaye is on the phone for you; something about the Whore of Babylon…

Someone should tell King Puddle what fundies say about Catholics when they think no one’s listening.

Comment #23: Sour Kraut  on  08/05  at  01:07 PM

To be precise, the Constitution (and the Bill of Rights) limits the powers of the US Government wherever the United States holds dominion.  It can hold dominion over either a place or a person (a citizen).  Hence, a US citizen, wherever he is in the world, the US Govt is limited by the Constitution in what it can do to him.  In territories held by the United States, the Govt cannot assert unconstitutional powers at all, against anyone.  So, if you’re on US territory (the countries we’ve invaded and occupied sadly don’t count) then your citizenship is entirely irrelevant to your Constitutional rights.

Comment #24: Gavel Down  on  08/05  at  01:13 PM

Or am I totally offbase here?

Comment #25: Gavel Down  on  08/05  at  01:13 PM

From 1942 to 1964 the US and Mexico had a number of laws and diplomatic agreements which
constituted a guest worker program—the Bracero Program.

See Wikipedia for the basics   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bracero_Program


Historically we haven’t been very welcoming to immigrant groups, i.e., laws restricting Asian (Chinese) immigration, Italian and southern European immigrants were not warmly welcomed (early guns laws were aimed at keeping those Italian anarchists from getting guns, especially in NY and MA).  More examples exist.  I saw a reference at another blog as to the reason that for example Chicago doesn’t get all anxious about Mexican illegal immigrants—their people are more worried about Poles and other Eastern Europeans who are here without documents. It’s a very complex problem.

Comment #26: PurpleGirl  on  08/05  at  01:21 PM

“So, if you’re on US territory (the countries we’ve invaded and occupied sadly don’t count) then your citizenship is entirely irrelevant to your Constitutional rights.

Or am I totally offbase here?”

That’s exactly the kind of thing that idiots like King Head Lice want to eliminate.  They want non-citizens to have no Constitutional rights at all, and probably even want “classes” of American citizenship so those who have been naturalized have fewer rights than native-born Americans.

Ultimately King Lice (and his ilk) won’t be happy until everyone left looks and thinks just like he does.

We need to make sure he stays as unhappy as possible for the rest of his miserable and disgusting life…

Comment #27: MikeEss  on  08/05  at  01:23 PM

We need to make sure he stays as unhappy as possible for the rest of his miserable and disgusting life…

He doesn’t actually have any chance of getting popular support. The teabaggers can’t get above the crazification level, and the out nazis score even lower. We’re more likely to let Hypnotoad take over…

Comment #28: Scott  on  08/05  at  01:31 PM

And as far as his happiness vs. unhappiness… Well, he’s a troll, and trolls are made happy when people pay attention to them…

Comment #29: Scott  on  08/05  at  01:32 PM

MikeEss - I know, and ironically it’s a devastating insult to the military and national security power of the United States to think that way.  The corollary of not believing the Constitution applies to all US soil is believing that the United States doesn’t really control it, and that our government is so incompetent that we have lost control over our own territories and only retain it over our own citizens…which I guess they actually do believe.  It’s a fascinating thing, the different sets of lies we get told.

Comment #30: Gavel Down  on  08/05  at  01:33 PM

You know, the problem w/ trolls in discussions is that they suck up all the oxygen and make you talk to them instead of having a useful discussion. That’s what they’re deployed (or deploy themselves) to do.

Just saying, can we not feed them? I think there’s a lot more interesting things to talk about than whatever Bizarro-World logic is dredged up by the one ya’ll are currently engaging with.

Comment #31: emjaybee  on  08/05  at  01:34 PM

“Tell me, why is it that Obama can’t even find ONE Republican vote for amnesty?  Just one!  It’s because every GOP lawmaker knows that if they support immigration reform they will be joining Scoffazza, Cannon, Bennett and God knows how many others in early retirement.”

First off, the woman’s name is Scozzafava.  You might like her, but that really makes you look like an idiot (not that you need any help).  Second, sure, Scozzafava was cowed out of the race, so she didn’t win.  But, tell me who did win NY-23.  Was it the Teabagger?  Or Democrat Bill Owens, who looked sane in comparison?

I’m all in favor of the nutball insane Reichwing takeover of the Republican Party.  The more Doug Hoffmans and Sharon Angles you guys run, the better it is for the forces of sanity.  I’m praying that you’ll run a Gingrich/Palin ticket in 2012.  Obama hasn’t been the second coming of FDR this country so desperately needs, but by god he’s a quantum leap over Newtie and Half Governor Fail…

Comment #32: MikeEss  on  08/05  at  01:38 PM

still counting on the rich white males to bail you out.

I’m not a Republican or conservative. The other party has its own rich white males to bail them out, and since they’re somewhat amenable to reality-based liberals I’m cool with that.

So when exactly do you expect your old, wealthy, white, male saviors to jump in and put a stop to all this populist madness?  Can I get a timeframe please?

Again, the old, wealthy, white males we’re discussing here are the GOP establishment. So the answer remains the same: when your lot starts messing with their cash flow and becomes a net liability.

If the wealthy elites were as powerful as you say, immigration reform would have been passed by now.

Here in our universe, Republicans aren’t the only wealthy elites out there.

The Arizona law would never have seen the light of day, let alone passed, and atleast 10 other states wouldn’t be in the process of passing their own anti illegal legislation.

Note which party dominates the legislatures and governors’ offices in those states. Once you get to that level, they generally have to pander to racists. Fortunately for them, racists are notoriously easy to gull with confusingly worded propositions and legislation.

Tell me, why is it that Obama can’t even find ONE Republican vote for amnesty?  Just one!

These days, it’s easier for Republican legislators at the Federal level to keep the grift going and string you along a bit longer.

If?  We already have taken over.  We’ve purged most of the pro Hispanic wing and the ones that have survived like McCain have done so only by transforming themselves into intransgient xenophones.  This isn’t you’re father’s GOP.

The three-card Monte guys in the subway love rubes like you. So do the casino owners in Vegas. “I’m winning, I’m winning!”

In some games, you can’t beat the house in the short-term. McCain, as silly and pathetic as he looks, isn’t gonna betray his corporate donors in any substantial way. Neither, for that matter, is Sarah Palin. Certainly they need the Know-Nothing 20% to make their margin, but they’re not gonna let the suckers actually run the game and cost them money.

For impatient children like yourself, that leaves you with the option of burning down the house. And by that I don’t mean a bunch of rallies of doughy lower-middle-class folks with semi-literate placards, I mean real burning. Most Teabaggers simply aren’t up for that level of commitment, and it’s not like their liberal opponents are interested in street violence, either.

Like many dull-witted and ignorant fantasists, you’re more obsessed with symbols and superficial appearances than reality (not to be confused with reality TV). Which is why you’ll constantly be one of life’s suckers.

Comment #33: Gracchus.  on  08/05  at  01:44 PM

“Just saying, can we not feed them?”

In this case, I think KWI’s words and the evil concepts behind them are on topic, and serve to illustrate just how nuts the more radical wingnuts really are.

(He’s almost too good at appearing to be an insane Reichwinger, and it makes me wonder if he’s for real or a sockpuppet.  Maybe there needs to be a corollary added to Poe’s Law that addresses not being able to tell true believer trolls from sockpuppets…)

Comment #34: MikeEss  on  08/05  at  01:45 PM

3letter, I don’t see how you think “anchor babies”  can exist.  That doesn’t just mean “child born to immigrants” or even “child born to illegal immigrants”.  It means “child whose purpose in being born was to ‘anchor’ the parents here, making it harder for them to deport”.  People don’t have children with that intent, both because that’s not really how it works and because it doesn’t work.  If you get deported, your children go with you.  At best, they just have a right to return when they grow up.  But to actually be a plot, the parents would have to be thinking, “21 years from now, this kid will sponsor us”.

Comment #35: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/05  at  01:53 PM

Jeb Bush (who actually married an illegal)

You misspelled “a woman he met while he was teaching in Mexico”. HTH. HAND.

Comment #36: BrianX  on  08/05  at  01:55 PM

“For impatient children like yourself, that leaves you with the option of burning down the house. And by that I don’t mean a bunch of rallies of doughy lower-middle-class folks with semi-literate placards, I mean real burning. Most Teabaggers simply aren’t up for that level of commitment, and it’s not like their liberal opponents are interested in street violence, either.”

Don’t forget that for all their bitching, all too many teabaggers are deeply tied to the way things work right now.  They want to keep their SS and/or disability checks rolling in, making sure that Medicare remains funded and available to them, etc. 

They really, really hate the current system — but they really, really love all the things they get from it, and will ultimately not cut their own necks by actually pushing for genuine reductions in government spending.  Most of them just love defense spending, for example, despite the fact that all that money is thrown down a rathole for all the benefit we get from it.  If we maintained our armed forces at the level of any reasonable country, we could balance the federal budget in a snap.  But, of course, we couldn’t possibly do that!

So it’s back to bashing immigrants (legal or otherwise, they don’t care) and other racist crap to keep themselves in a state of perpetual outrage…

Comment #37: MikeEss  on  08/05  at  01:57 PM

KWI has been banned for his flagrant, over the top, genocidal hate speech.

Comment #38: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/05  at  02:02 PM

Thanks for the post, Amanda. The demonization of immigrants is something that makes me very, very angry. I’m especially angry at the opinion engineers (Rove and company) who use this issue for their own cynical purposes, regardless of the human consequences.

Comment #39: tesseral  on  08/05  at  02:08 PM

I’m sure someone already has, but I call bullshit on Grauchus at #19.

You don’t see the word “citizen” show up much in the bill of rights, and there is a reason for that. The notion you’re putting forward is basically a myth. And if you want to talk about our nation’s shitty history (or state’s if you prefer), property owners have rights—not citizens

Then as it is now. (Don’t tase me brown.)

Comment #40: humanadverb  on  08/05  at  02:09 PM

KWI will not be missed. He was such an asshole he was bordering on goatse.

Comment #41: BrianX  on  08/05  at  02:13 PM

You’re right, Gavel, which is why the Obama administration’s targeting of U.S. citizens for execution overseas is unconstitutional.

Comment #42: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/05  at  02:21 PM

Amanda, it does work to some degree.  Having a child who is a citizen makes it less likely that someone here illegally will be turned in.  It offers some stability, access to some government assistance (for the child,) and for some it’s a way to make a better life for their children.  It’s not a “Get out of Trouble Free” card, but it does help.  Not in a big way, but certainly a little.

There’s a sort of chicken/egg scenario about the issue: are the babies born here intentionally or by happenstance?  The mothers are certainly not engaging in some sort of wingnut nightmarish fantasy where they get Palinesque labor pains and get on a burro and cross the desert dressed as the Virgin Mary.  They’re here because they are working here or they’re supporting their family outside of wage labor means.  They may or may not intentionally give birth here, but they certainly aren’t rushing home in droves to have their children in Mexico.

(And I use Mexico for my examples not because I think that’s the only place immigrants come from but because I live in Tucson and Mexico is where the majority of immigrants in my area derive.  Yes, there are Guatemalans and even Poles coming over the border, but the vast majority here are Mexican.)

Comment #43: 3letterjon  on  08/05  at  02:28 PM

Anchor Babies = Pop Rocks and Coke.

Truly, ask Mikey.

Comment #44: Danzig  on  08/05  at  02:32 PM

You don’t see the word “citizen” show up much in the bill of rights, and there is a reason for that

You do understand that the Constitution is not comprised soley of the Bill of Rights and other amendments, correct?

The Constitution is a parsimonious document, but the words chosen by its authors are very carefully chosen, and they do mean something.

The Constitution is also a changing and living document. At the beginning, “citizen” did indeed mean “white, land-owning male.” Subsequent amendments have changed that, specifically 14, 15, 19, 26 and, indirectly, others.

As to who gets to enjoy the rights covered under the Bill of Rights, it’s critical to note (as gavel down pointed out) that they’re not limited to citizens, but to the more general “the people” or, in cases like the 3rd where property was involved, “the Owner.” That’s not by accident, either.

I’m well aware of the crappy history of the U.S.—crappy mainly because it’s so often failed to live up to the ideals set down in this document that’s meant to define a citizen not by its own words, but the citizen’s acceptance of it.

Don’t they teach this stuff in civics class anymore?

Comment #45: Gracchus.  on  08/05  at  02:35 PM

KWI has been banned for his flagrant, over the top, genocidal hate speech.

With these 5t0rmfr0nt and BNP type, it’s only a matter of time. First it’s bragging about “purging the party of [insert non-white, non-Xtian]-friendly interests,” but sooner or later they’ll get to bragging about ethnic cleansing.

Comment #46: Gracchus.  on  08/05  at  02:45 PM

Don’t they teach this stuff in civics class anymore?

There haven’t been “civics classes” for at least 15 years now. Certainly there weren’t any when I was in school.

Comment #47: Well, what?  on  08/05  at  03:15 PM

I think the big misunderstanding about “Anchor Babies” comes from fictional television shows like the Law & Order franchise, where the cops frequently convince folks who are here illegally to report crimes or testify because, “Your child was born here, you can’t be deported.” 

The only actual court case that I’m at all familiar with involved a family who had been here without proper documentation for damn near 20 years, and their kids were in their late teens.  I think they actually got to stay because the kids had lived in the US all their lives, didn’t speak their parents’ native language at all, were unfamiliar with the culture, etc…  And honestly, I don’t remember how that turned out.

Comment #48: GeekGirlsRule  on  08/05  at  03:20 PM

There haven’t been “civics classes” for at least 15 years now. Certainly there weren’t any when I was in school.

Guess my age is showing. They called it “social studies” or “civics” in elementary school and middle school (granted, they were private schools, but I thought that there were similar courses in public schools).

Do they teach it in American history class now? Or are they just leaving dopes like KWI to assume that “citizen” still equals “white property owner”?

Comment #49: Gracchus.  on  08/05  at  03:25 PM

1)  Not to be a concern troll, but what IS the preferred term for “non-citizens who have entered the country illegally, ie. not via official border crossing”?

2)  What kind of hand-waving is used by the Right to <u>explain</u> why La Migra doesn’t target those who EMPLOY non-documented aliens (I’m going w/that temporarily) ??  Surely they are easier, fatter, STATIC-er targets than the workers themselves.

IF we have a non-documented alien problem (and I’m not convinced we do), is it not just because we have jobs for them?

Comment #50: Eric_RoM  on  08/05  at  03:29 PM

People also forget that having a spouse or child who reaches 21 (if the master plan is to have an “anchor baby” and wait for it to grow up and sponsor you) is still not an automatic “in” to immigration. A US citizen sponsor has to be able to sponsor you at 125% above the poverty level for whatever family size you are for ten years. This is extremely difficult for a young person (citizen of immigrants who just turned 21) to do. Also, their ability to sponsor you has very much to do with how you entered the country. If you cannot prove you entered legally (or have yet to enter at all) then you may not be eligible for sponsorship.

My husband and I are going through immigration proceedings right now. It is crazy. For example, we have been summoned for an interview later this month, yet there is no way to call and cancel, change, say that we are going to be late, etc. Now, of course we are going to damned well BE THERE, but if we somehow have a car accident on the way…instantly, our application is abandoned and my husband is an illegal. I sometimes wonder how many people who have work issues, no transportation, limited understanding of English, etc, may screw up just one thing in the process of immigration and become illegal by default. People don’t understand the system and don’t understand how difficult it is and how easy it is to become illegal by accident. At one point we screwed up, as my husband who was born in Sweden but is a Canadian citizen entered the US thinking he entered under his Canadian citizenship (giving him a 180 day visa) when instead the border guard sent him in as a Swede under an I-94 visa (giving him 90 days) without telling him (and the stamp looks almost identical). Boom! We unknowingly entered illegal territory and there was no means to appeal. (He ended up going back to Canada by land (waived through) and re entering the same day by air (passport stamp). We were lucky we could do that, but it was a $500 mistake.)

Also, we have paid upwards of $2500 for the process so far. And we have been at this (not continuously but still…) since 2001. Immigration is a minefield of horrors. My point here is that when these wingnuts say people can just ” come in legally” they have no idea how hard that is. Like when people say you can just get married to a US citizen and be legal. No, you can get married, go through a few thousand bucks and months or years of hell…then if all your i’s are dotted to the satisfaction of some bureoucrat, then you can maybe come into the country conditionally.

Comment #51: Lexie  on  08/05  at  03:40 PM

Eric_RoM,

1) There really is no preferred term.  There are terms that are dehumanizing and there are terms that are less dehumanizing, but there’s no term available that doesn’t lie about them being equal or sugar-coat the fact that they aren’t here legally. 

2) Deportations and raids on businesses are up right now, but somehow it’s Obama’s fault that the border isn’t sealed.  All those years and all those other Presidents, but this problem has only existed since late January of 2009, I guess.

See also: http://azstarnet.com/news/local/border/article_bb4c50a8-3e86-5187-a243-7c7f1b69d3c1.html

Comment #52: 3letterjon  on  08/05  at  03:40 PM

Oh, also , speaking of terminology. all of the paperwork we fill out refers to my husband as an alien. Talk about “othering.” The kids find that highly amusing. Especially when he is constantly asked for his “alien number.”

Comment #53: Lexie  on  08/05  at  03:47 PM

Comment #14: 3letterjon on 08/05 at 11:37 AM

Non-citizens will never be completely equal to citizens, but non-citizens who aren’t here legally are even more likely to be abused.  That’s true here, in Germany, in Saudi Arabia, in Israel, and in Togo.

An important country to add to this list is the Dominican Republic, which has in recent years embarked on a campaign to only recognize children of Dominican citizen parents as citizens, in order to exclude Dominican-born children of Haitian immigrants.

They’re going as far as doing this retroactively, with the effect of denying citizenship to second-generation immigrants who had up until recently been treated as citizens, and to third-generations kids who don’t speak any Haitian.  Read for example this story in the Christian Science Monitor, which documents a family where the grandfather was born in Haiti and came to the DR in 1956, his children were born in the Dominican Republic, educated there, and some of them even hold government jobs (two police officers!), yet the grandchildren are now not allowed to go to college or even legally hold any jobs because they are “Haitian.”

This is basically what the anti-14th folks want to do in the USA.  Take, for example, Arizona legislator Russel Pearce (author of SB-1070), who is planning a bill that would forbid the state of Arizona from issuing a birth certificate unless one parent can provide proof of citizenship:

Pearce, who has yet to draft the legislation, proposes that the state of Arizona no longer issue birth certificates unless at least one parent can prove legal status.

Compare this with the story of Sonia Camilise in the Dominican Republic:

Until she graduated from high school, Sonia Camilise never had reason to question her nationality. She was born here in the Dominican Republic and grew up speaking Spanish, dancing merengue, and watching the boys play baseball in the grassy lot outside her family’s small house. “I am Dominican,” she says. “Of course.”

But two years ago, when she went to get a certified copy of her birth certificate – a necessary part of the college application process here – she discovered that her government had a different perspective.  The civil registry officers told her that she was not Dominican, but Haitian. Their reasoning: Ms. Camilise did not have the papers to show that her father, a Haitian immigrant, had legal residency here when she was born.

And it gets worse, because this effectively makes her stateless:

But Haiti doesn’t accept Camilise, either. Yes, she arguably looks Haitian, with her dark skin; and yes, she lives in a batey, a neighborhood built for Haitian sugar cane workers – such as her maternal grandfather – who migrated across the island of Hispaniola in the 1950s and ‘60s. Yet Camilise has never been to Haiti. She has a Dominican birth certificate and national ID, and even her mother was born in the Dominican Republic. She doesn’t speak Creole or French, the languages of Haiti. According to Haitian officials, whose laws say that people who have chosen other nationalities cannot be Haitian, Camilise is obviously Dominican.

So the Republicans want policies that would create a substantial class of stateless people in the USA, who are supposedly to be “deported,” yet for many there might be no country that will accept them.  Not good.

Comment #54: sacundim  on  08/05  at  03:57 PM

Also, we have paid upwards of $2500 for the process so far. And we have been at this (not continuously but still…) since 2001. Immigration is a minefield of horrors. My point here is that when these wingnuts say people can just “ come in legally” they have no idea how hard that is. Like when people say you can just get married to a US citizen and be legal.

I’ve been through it as well: lost paperwork and fingerprints, poor customer service, surly bureaucrats and zero follow-up when problems came up.

It took me 7 years, and I started the process with the advantages of:

1. a Green Card (the attainment of which was an even bigger bureaucratic nightmare)

2. A well-paying job (it’s an expensive process)

3. Speaking English better than most of the ICE bureaucrats

4. A basic understanding of American legal and bureaucratic structures (i.e. I understand that, even as an applicant, the government is supposed to serve me)

Even then I couldn’t do it without spending a few thousand on an immigration attorney who knew the right players in the bureaucracy.

I can’t imagine what it would be like for someone making minimum wage (or less), with no English and no experience of American bureaucracy and a fear-based relationship with any government.

The reason this situation exists, as explained by my lawyer, is because the immigration bureaucracy doesn’t directly service tax-paying citizens, so funding and organisational reform is a low priority for the Feds.

then if all your i’s are dotted to the satisfaction of some bureoucrat, then you can maybe come into the country conditionally.

One positive thing that I will say about the process is that once you get to the point of the interview, they make damned sure you’ve done some basic civics homework and understand the fundamentals of what you’re buying into. That’s more than I can say for most of the anti-immigration crowd, who seem to share KWI’s loathing and ignorance of the Constitution.

Oh, also , speaking of terminology. all of the paperwork we fill out refers to my husband as an alien. Talk about “othering.”

I never took this too hard. It’s just a legal term, and a funny one at that.

Comment #55: Gracchus.  on  08/05  at  04:10 PM

Strangely, when people tell me ‘illegals’ what I think of isn’t some criminal, but some downtrodden tertiary-class person disallowed from making a living.

Comment #56: Crissa  on  08/05  at  04:24 PM

Guess my age is showing. They called it “social studies” or “civics” in elementary school and middle school (granted, they were private schools, but I thought that there were similar courses in public schools).

I mostly went to public schools, and in public school we had these same classes. I’m 37. So I don’t know that your age is really showing, it might be more a matter of different school districts.

Comment #57: atheist  on  08/05  at  04:51 PM

KWI will not be missed. He was such an asshole he was bordering on goatse.

I thought he was useful.  I’d like Amanda to reconsider.

Over here, we have used the shorthand term “overstayers”, which referred to mainly Polynesian Islanders overstaying their short-term visas to stay in the country.  A while back there was a policy of dawn raids to roust them out; this caused all sorts of controversy and splashback, and was quickly discontinued.

There’s also a seasonal guest worker idea being set up for Islanders.  I’m concerned about it because it doesn’t have a tie in to a route for permanent status.

Then again, Pasifika make up a fair proportion of the country without being second-class - Auckland s the largest Polynesian city globally.

Comment #58: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/05  at  05:06 PM

My point here is that when these wingnuts say people can just “ come in legally” they have no idea how hard that is.

The immigration bureaucracy is, by definition, the large bit of government that born-in-the-USAians have very little contact with. That explains a lot.

Comment #59: pseudonymous in nc  on  08/05  at  05:25 PM

The immigration bureaucracy, in a handy chart:

http://reason.com/assets/db/07cf533ddb1d06350cf1ddb5942ef5ad.jpg

(Yeah, I posted it already.  But it’s a handy reminder of just how fun our government can be.)

Comment #60: 3letterjon  on  08/05  at  05:30 PM

Piator:

Psht, whatEVer. You’re just jealous because you didn’t think of it first.

Comment #61: BrianX  on  08/05  at  05:35 PM

“KWI will not be missed. He was such an asshole he was bordering on goatse.
I thought he was useful.  I’d like Amanda to reconsider.”

It’s sort of a delicate thing, isn’t it.  On the one hand trolls can liven up a discussion by stirring things up, possibly even prompting interesting questions.  On the other hand, they can be so irritating and distracting that a thread dies prematurely (which is probably one of the intended effects).

I trust Amanda to know “good” trolls from “bad”...

Comment #62: MikeEss  on  08/05  at  05:36 PM

I trust Amanda to know “good” trolls from “bad”…

It looks like he broke one of the few rules around here, which is no eliminationist rhetoric aimed at a particular ethnic or religious group or at people of a particular sexual orientation. It’s one thing to display pig-ignorant racism, and quite another to suggest the deportation or deliberate displacement (or worse) of millions of people.

Comment #63: Gracchus.  on  08/05  at  05:45 PM

Thanks for this, Amanda and everyone. As an immigrant (citizen now), every time I hear the words “illegal” or “alien” it’s gut-wrenching. That’s all I have to say on that language; too emotional for me.

The whole “anchor babies” concept is such bullshit. I had an ex-boyfriend whose aunt was here on an expired visa and had a baby. She had always wanted children and when she found out she was pregnant (accident) in her forties, she thought it was her last chance and kept it. It made her life a nightmare, because she then had to worry about being deported with her child and her child not being able to speak Latvian and having to adjust to a whole new culture. I’ve heard of people getting deported with their American citizen children, but I’ve yet to hear about people getting to stay because of said children.

My mom sponsored my grandmother and, as other people reported here, it’s a complicated process. And it’s expensive - you are completely financially responsible for the parent you’re sponsoring under those circumstances, including medical care. So I can see that a woman might be in a desperate enough economic situation to think “I’m going to give birth in the States and when my kid is old enough, she can go over there and have a better life.” Even that is a stretch, but I’m willing to accept that there are some women who think that way. But no one in their right mind would plot to give birth here just so their child could sponsor them once she turns 21. A 21 year-old will never be able to afford it or get through the paperwork without a lawyer. I know, because I was in my 20s at the time, a college graduate and graduate school-bound, and I was completely useless to my parents through this process.

I bet the only reason teabaggers are screeching about the 14th amendment now is that they think that Obama wasn’t born here and their dearest wish is to prevent someone with his background from becoming a president again.

Comment #64: elena  on  08/05  at  06:03 PM

Re:  Juana Villegas and others, have y’all seen this? http://www.amnestyusa.org/dignity/pdf/DeadlyDelivery.pdf

A quote from pp. 47:

“Well, she might as well have an epidural; we’re practicing veterinary
medicine here.”
Anesthesiologist in response to a Spanish-speaking woman who did not want an epidural,
reported to Amnesty International by a registered nurse in the Labor and Delivery Department,
Minneapolis, 9 February 2008

Comment #65: bellacoker  on  08/05  at  06:41 PM

It might just be me, but it seeks like the Right nowadays has what amounts to an agreement in principle to enact their own Final Solution - it’s just the the victim-group selection process has gotten bogged down in focus groups and committees.

It’s like “For a while there is looked like it was going to be the queers, but now it looks like the numbers just won’t work out.  Right now it looks like a dead heat between Muslims and Illegal Immigrants.  So Mrs. Garcia, Mr. Haddad, if you could both report to your neighbourhood Liquidation Center and Mass Grave first thing on Monday, that would be great.  We’ll let you know then, M’kay?”

Comment #66: DaveL  on  08/05  at  08:27 PM

And then we get situations like the one currently going on in Portland, Oregon: http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/08/blanca_catt_who_was_smuggled_i.html

Gist of the story, she was illegal but didn’t know it. 19, doesn’t know Spanish at all, and is getting deported to Mexico. But, y’know, she’s illegal, so who cares, amirite?

The whole “illegal” thing makes me think that they’re not allowed to be human, not allowed to have emotions, and certainly not allowed to their human rights. We don’t want them here, but we’ll hire them anyway to do shit work that no one else wants to.

*grumble*

Comment #67: Ducky  on  08/05  at  08:30 PM

Yup, lonnie, because laws based on harm reduction are simply out of the question.  It’s only Kill them all or Every family adopts a Mexican family; there is no middle.

Comment #68: bellacoker  on  08/05  at  08:33 PM

So they cut in front of people who legally applied for citizenship, what’s the big deal?

Could we please just stop it with this fiction that legally applying for citizenship is a viable option for most people who immigrate illegally?

Many of these people pay thousands of dollars to criminal gangs, and/or trek through the freaking desert while evading law enforcement, then have to accept living and working as legal non-persons.  Do you think these people are all stupid?  Masochistic?  Of course they aren’t.  Now what does it tell you when that route is cheaper/easier/more certain of success than following the proper channels?

Comment #69: DaveL  on  08/05  at  08:37 PM

Can we give lonnie’s citizenship to someone deserving who is not currently American?  We’re likely to get a better person, and America would benefit from having one less troll…

Comment #70: MikeEss  on  08/05  at  09:17 PM

Right now it looks like a dead heat between Muslims and Illegal Immigrants.

Hey, they’re all brown anyway, right?

Comment #71: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  08/05  at  09:21 PM

Well, lonnie has very helpfully demonstrated how you can scratch someone “concerned about immigration” and find a flaming racist, every time.

How dare Amerrukin be the SECOND option! It belongs to the superior race!

Comment #72: kristin  on  08/05  at  09:53 PM

Si senor. Press 2 for english.

Se requera un tipo especial de pendejo para quejarse de deber habitar una sociedad bilingue, un medio pagina despues de haber leido como los objetos de su resentimiento han debido cruzar el desierto a pie.

Comment #73: DaveL  on  08/05  at  10:13 PM

Maybe I’m just a stick in the mud, but I prefer the term “wop” to “illegal” when it comes to dehumanizing and othering immigrants.  At least “wop” is an acronym. I wonder why it came to mean people of just a single country, rather than all of the unwashed eastern and southern European masses, including—gulp—some of my Jewish forebears.

Comment #74: Iam138  on  08/05  at  10:29 PM

I knew “wog” was an acronym, but not “wop”.  What’s it stand for?

+++++++++
Is the current thinking that there needs to be some sort of gastarbeiter program to meet the needs of those employing migrant workers?  So that there’s a path that doesn’t funnel money into criminal (coyote) hands, or bodies into deserts?

Comment #75: Eric_RoM  on  08/05  at  11:09 PM

With
Out
Papers

As a proud citizen of Finnish and Lithuanian descent, many of my ancestors avoided this problem by reusing the same papers multiple times.  Of course that was back when there were quotas, but with half of the immigrants going back it was hard for officials to keep track of who was where at any particular time.

Immigration has always had cheats, end-runs, paperwork errors (my Finnish namesake is supposed to be spelled with an umlaut, but it got misspelled in other ways as well,) and simple mismanagement.  It’s possible that the workers at Ellis Island lived a bit better than their salaries permitted, but there are no modern parallels to that.  No way.  Nuh uh.  None at all.

Comment #76: 3letterjon  on  08/05  at  11:23 PM

paperwork errors (my Finnish namesake is supposed to be spelled with an umlaut, but it got misspelled in other ways as well,)

For fucking serious.  I had to pull some records on a client today, and seven municipalities spelled his name five different ways in their records.  No special characters, either, it just wasn’t “Smith.”

Comment #77: Ferox  on  08/05  at  11:57 PM

Lonnie, you obviously were complaining about a bilingual society.

And you can wish that illegal immigration would stop, but that is like wishing for a unicorn. It is too expesnive/hard/etc to deport all of the millions of people residing her illegally and then build a bubble around the country so that no one else can get in. Our only options are to treat these immigrants as a permanent underclass that is easily exploitable by workers, or we can accept that they are here and try to integrate them into mainstream american society.

Comment #78: alysia  on  08/06  at  12:17 AM

Yeah, um lonnie, the tone of your comments, what with the whole “Press 2 for english.” in which you don’t remember that we capitalize letters here to depict the language being spoken in the good ol’ US of A just strikes me as you trying to justify your racism and/or inability/unwillingness to learn another language.  I mean, my Spanish isn’t great anymore, and I learned it with a Madrilenos accent too, so I have trouble with the different speech cadences, much like “Yankees” or other non-elite “Real Americans” have with the Southern accent I was raised with, but I’ve found that asking people to clarify makes things easier!  Not that you need to clarify, I can tell you’re a racist, but I’ve never *ever* had to have someone make me press a number for English, I’ve only ever heard things like “presione el número nueve por español” and it defaults to English.  American English even!

And who gives a shit anyway?  When I was in Greece, and there were ATMs with an English option, I was super pleased!  I don’t speak Greek!  And in France, same thing!  Italy, etc. etc. and so forth.  What’s the huge honking problem with accommodating people who speak other languages?  Or is it okay if they accommodate for “white” people, but not for those dern ferrigners, who are tekking ur jerbs!

Comment #79: Mimi  on  08/06  at  01:18 AM

I’m with Mimi on Who gives a shit?  I can’t remember if I’ve ever had to press a number for English, but imagine that every time I made a phone call, I had to press one extra button.  Imagine it happened once a day.

Every year, a whole minute of valuable, productive time might be lost!

Although maybe I’m being unfair - a lot of the people who complain about “press one for English” probably have a lot of trouble knowing that “one” means press the button with a “1” on it.

Comment #80: Loch Ness Monster  on  08/06  at  01:38 AM

I’m not complaining about a bi-lingual society Dave. I just think people should follow the laws. is that too much to ask.

Oh, really?  It’s against the law to have a bilingual phone menu?

We’ve already established above, and you’ve acknowledged, that going through the legal immigration process isn’t an option for most undocumented workers.  So why don’t you cut the crap and just admit this has absolutely squat to do with legality and everything to do with your resentment against Hispanic people?

Comment #81: DaveL  on  08/06  at  06:45 AM

Lonnie, both of my grandmothers were non-English speaking at the time they started school. One only spoke German and one only spoke French. The French speaking grandma was a border hopper from Canada. As in, the family just moved south and that was it. They learned English from growing up in America and the children of Spanish speakers will do so as well.

Interesting note, there exists a Welsh-language campaign poster for Abraham Lincoln. Accomodating non-English speaking new arrivals is the traditional American way.

Comment #82: Yawgmoth  on  08/06  at  07:28 AM

For those on an English-only bent, be aware that the Founding Fathers put out copies of the Declaration of Independence in GERMAN.

http://www.dhm.de/magazine/unabhaengig/boette_e.htm

Comment #83: 3letterjon  on  08/06  at  08:33 AM

I can’t remember if I’ve ever had to press a number for English

.

It’s BS, of course. Unless a business owner were as incompetent as lonnie, it would make absolutely no sense to make Spanish the default option unless (hold onto your hats, folks) the customer base was mostly Spanish speaking.

lonnie tends to give away his screwed-up attitudes pretty quickly. There’s another example in this thread.

Comment #84: Gracchus.  on  08/06  at  08:43 AM

Hey guys, give lonnie a break.  He believes the whole world should speak King-James-era English, just like Jesus did.

The orderlies at the institution where he’s housed haven’t had the heart to tell him that English is just one of many languages in use on Earth, and its use is certainly not universal.  And they’re afraid he might suffer another breakdown if they tell him Jesus, if he existed, could not possibly have used a language that did not exist in any form at that time.

***

English currently occupies a weird niche at the moment, in some ways a lingua franca in a lot of areas of commerce, etc.  This may continue, or not, depending on circumstances beyond American control.

I figure there is a decent chance that Standard Mandarin will eventually become the “standard” common/bridge language for humans in the future, given China’s rapidly growing influence on the world while America’s influence diminishes due to our political, military, and economic incompetence…

Comment #85: MikeEss  on  08/06  at  09:52 AM

The use of these dehumanizing terms for the outcasts in sci fi is a reflection of what occurs in reality, not the othr way around.  Most scifi is not about technology (that is the subgenre techno-fiction), it is about tweeking and examining existing political and social institutions and practices in such a way as to be non-threatening to those.  In other words, traditional sci fi is just a cover for subverting social norms in some way or another, or examining them to re-enforce them, on far rarer occations.

Comment #86: helen w. h.  on  08/06  at  10:29 AM

MikeEss, you would agree with the Firefly universe re Mandrin.  I find that it tends to be less precise, so English is likely to remain the language of contracts and law for the forseeable future.  Common usage though is likely to go to some variant of Chinese slang including English, German, French, perhaps a little Russian and any number of minority Asian languages.  The polyglot internet speak used on networking sites out of SE Asia is one such facinating (and very confusing) mix; also likely a portent of things to come.

Comment #87: helen w. h.  on  08/06  at  10:33 AM

Civics vs Social studies vs government as a prefered term is dependant on a combination of when, where and at what level. 
In the Pacific NW in the 70s and 80s, it was Social Studies in primary and middle (jr High) school, civics as a specific course (taken in 9th-11th grade), and Government (taken in 11th or 12th).  Texas had the same terms at the same time.  MA and NH still have social studies in some districts for elementary, but seem to have a couple of government courses not specifically called Civics in high school.

Comment #88: helen w. h.  on  08/06  at  10:57 AM

I realize that there’s nothing we can do about the people that are already here, but doesn’t the country need a modicum of control over how many people immigrate here? What is the long term answer? Because I don’t see the stream of people stopping until Mexico’s economy improves. Consistently enforced and large fines on the people that hire them would be a good place to start, but would that be enough?

Comment #89: Selena777  on  08/06  at  03:12 PM

Consistently enforced and large fines on the people that hire them would be a good place to start, but would that be enough?

The short answer is yes.

Were it not for crooked capitalists and their lawless firms, hiring undocumented workers with the intention of having a docile, frightened workforce whom they don’t have to pay minimum wage, don’t have to provide safe working conditions, and don’t have to provide any labor protections (such as Workers Comp. insurance), none of those undocumented workers would even be here in the first place.

For the millionth time, it’s not the workers, it’s the employers. 

Every single factory, store, outlet, operation, or enterprise found to be employing undocumented workers should be raided by ICE, temporarily closed down, fined proportionally (a percentage of revenues for every instance of infraction, with multiple infractions causing fines to go up exponentially), and the managers brought up on criminal charges. 

As for deportation, it’s useless as a punishment.  A complete and total waste of time, resources, and taxpayer dollars.  Redeploying those resources to stop illegal immigration at its source is the only way to permanently and efficiently solve this problem. 

Let me repeat it again so there can be no mistake: The source of illegal immigration is firms looking to hire cut-rate labor, in violation of U.S. Labor Laws.  Stop those firms, and we’ll stop illegal immigration once and for all.

Comment #90: Mezosub  on  08/06  at  08:13 PM

How does the government deal with the rampant use of “middle men” - contractors who take on the responsibility and the penalty for hiring illegal workers for use by these larger companies?

Comment #91: Selena777  on  08/07  at  12:10 AM

there exists a Welsh-language campaign poster for Abraham Lincoln.

Bryn Mawr has more vowels in its name than you think.

How many people who chant “enforce the laws” can explain, say, the procedure to apply for a work visa?

doesn’t the country need a modicum of control over how many people immigrate here?

Absolutely. But that requires a sensible, honest conversation about how Americans in general are comfortably accustomed to the consumer side of illegal immigration—i.e. cheaper goods and services—while upset at the impact on jobs. Can’t have it both ways. It also involves an honest conversation about the way both parties tolerate the right-wing Mexican government tacitly encouraging people who’d otherwise vote them out to cross the border northwards, because the alternative might be people who give Hugo Chavez and Evo Morales big hugs.

Someone’s decision to pick out the cheap chicken in the grocery store is the flip-side of someone’s decision to abandon their roots, live in the shadows, and work in the slaughterhouse.

Comment #92: pseudonymous in nc  on  08/07  at  12:17 AM
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