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The embittered asshole lobby exposed

CrimeFeminism

So the news came out today that the FBI got a warning a month prior that Scott Roeder was a danger to Dr. George Tiller.  The FBI disregarded the letter as not credible, for a number of reasons, including the fact that the guy who wrote it had no specifics. But it’s also likely that the FBI was annoyed because the letter came from a personal enemy of Roeder’s, a Mark Archer.  Archer’s wife had a baby by Roeder after she married Archer, and Roeder had managed to secure visitation rights.  For somewhat understandable reasons, Archer didn’t want Roeder visiting the little girl—-the story implies that Archer is raising the little girl as his own, and the Archers want to get Roeder out of their life completely.  Of course, the strategy of trying to run someone out of your life by getting him on a “no fly” list is unethical, but it seems that Archer was also freaked out by Roeder, who bragged to Archer’s wife that he wanted to blow up abortion clinics. 

Now, I know the FBI probably gets a ton of people trying to use them in order to attack personal enemies, and as such, they probably just write most of this stuff right away. But since this letter was inspired by a custody dispute, I think perhaps they should have had more follow-up.  Custody disputes should be a red flag for violence, in no small part because of the right wing’s growing interest in using child custody issues as a way to oppress and control women.  The anti-choice movement attracts a lot of angry, bitter men with major masculinity issues and bitterness over divorce and the loss of control over the lives of specific women they feel they have a claim to, and that sort of thing needs to be taken into consideration when warnings like this are issued.

Of course, angry, violent, bitter men don’t need to go into anti-choice activism to work out their violent hatred of women, because now they have the “men’s rights” movement.  And while individual MRAs (men’s rights activists) might be seriously anti-choice, the movement on the whole tends to be neutral on abortion, because they aren’t particularly anti-sex.  Indeed, MRAs tend to be more concerned about the fact that men don’t have a right to force women to have abortions than the fact that legal abortion exists. 

I bring this up, because Kathryn Joyce published the definitive article on the men’s rights movement last week.  In it, she really carefully shows that while many men who are attracted to the MRA thing aren’t necessarily wife beaters, the movement exists because a lot of wife beaters can’t accept that they’ve lost control of their victims.  Indeed, the MRA strategy of encouraging men to continue to find new, creative ways to sue their ex-wives is exactly the sort of thing that would attract wife beaters, who need a way to maintain power over their victims.  Lawsuits that force the victim to continue showing up at court, hiring an attorney, etc. are a good way to keep some kind of control over a woman.  Many family court observers call it “abuse by court”.

Kathryn spells out all the MRA tactics: denying the reality of domestic violence, using children and money as leverage to get their way with women, supporting rapists and making excuses for them, claiming that the real victims are men who get punished for beating their wives.  Specifically, MRAs pull the same stunt that wife beaters do, which is blaming the victim.  MRA “studies” trying to demonstrate that domestic violence isn’t gendered do so by folding any attempt by women at self-defense into the statistics, and conflating that with attacking someone.  They also conflate slapping someone in the face once with the ongoing beating, berating, and mental destruction that is the pattern of abuse inflicted by batterers on their wives.  (Not that it’s ever okay to slap, but there are huge differences that responsible researchers take into account.)  Not that there’s no such thing as a female batterer, but responsible statistics show that it’s rare.  And that makes sense—-domestic violence is the direct result of a culture that teaches that women are servants for men.  Some men with sadistic streaks are going to see that as license to break a specific woman down, to control her completely. 


The bullying nature of the MRA movement initially marginalized them, but they’ve come around to learning to put a more charming face on the movement, and that has made them more effective, as Kathryn painstakingly demonstrates.  Reading this, I was put in mind of the way that domestic abusers learn to be charming, so that their victims are disbelieved by friends and families, and therefore isolated.  The abuser will put on one face for the public and one for his wife, and similarly, MRAs put on a smiley face for legislators and on talk radio shows, but when they go after people who call them out on their bullshit, the true ugliness comes out.

Which is why I was relieved to read this amazing quote from Michael Flood, really defining what you meet when you push back against MRAs.

In this, critics like Australian sociologist Michael Flood say that men’s rights movements reflect the tactics of domestic abusers themselves, minimizing existing violence, calling it mutual, and discrediting victims. MRA groups downplay national abuse rates, just as abusers downplay their personal battery; they wage campaigns dismissing most allegations as false, as abusers claim partners are lying about being hit; and they depict the violence as mutual—part of an epidemic of wife-on-husband abuse—as individual batterers rationalize their behavior by saying that the violence was reciprocal. Additionally, MRA groups’ predictions of future violence by fed-up men wronged by the family-law system seem an obvious additional correlation, with the threat of violence seemingly intended to intimidate a community, like a fearful spouse, into compliance.

On that last point, Kathryn marshals evidence of many MRAs suggesting that the George Sodini murders are the sort of thing that the U.S. deserves if we don’t start rolling back women’s rights, a claim that leaders were smart enough to come right out and make, though they certainly allowed dog whistles of support to come through in their statements.  It does make sense that a movement largely constructed to protect batterers from the consequences of their behavior would be intrigued by the idea of random violence to scare people into rolling back feminist gains.  Abusers know very well that random violence is the most effective tactic in turning a woman with self-esteem into a quivering pile of jelly who is afraid of her own shadow. 

But what relieved me about reading that statement was the knowledge that those of us who’ve endured a massive amount of bullshit at the hands of MRAs have not done so in vain; people are paying attention, and believe us.  Writing about the MRA movement is always fraught.  On one hand, it’s important to push back against a movement that, in its various forms, wants de facto legalization of rape (through automatically prosecuting all victims when the case wasn’t proven by the prosecutor), to have cops refuse to arrest abusers and/or to arrest the woman who made the panicked call for help, for abusers to get automatic joint custody of their children (even in cases of sexual abuse of the children), and who want to make it easy for embittered, abusive men to continue to wage harassment campaigns against ex-wives.  On the other hand, every time you write about it, a giant pile of shit comes down on your head, because as Flood notes, their political tactics resemble the tactics of wife beaters, for obvious reasons.  Writing about this issue has resulted in threats aimed at me (including a caller on Glenn Sacks’ show giving the name of my employer out on air when I had a day job), and an unbelievable shit storm of comments and emails from men who never find an end of their energy reserves when they see a woman in sight that they’d like to beat down completely.  And this happens to pretty much every feminist writer I know who’s tried to tackle the issue.  Reading this article, I knew exactly what would happen, and indeed, there are 132 comments on the post from men who are trying to gaslight the situation with lies and randomly fucked up behavior.

Of course, the tactics only work on targets who give the assholes the benefit of the doubt, such as women that have the misfortune of falling in love with abusers who put on a charming face during courtship.  If you’re a feminist predisposed to see through their shit, it’s exhausting, but it’s not usually going to get into your head.  So I’m not trying to garner sympathy here, just pointing out that Flood has a perfect read on the situation.  My concern, like Kathryn’s, is that the MRA tactics of giving women hell on a one-to-one basis while putting on a charming face during lobbying is extremely effective.  Just as domestic violence victims face a wall of disbelief from friends and family when they reach out for help, these tactics are often effective on convincing the (mostly male) people in power that the MRAs are just nice, charming guys, while the feminists exposing the truth about MRAs must be crazy.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 08:03 PM • (45) Comments

Yeah, I think the connection between the domestic abuse mindset and the “men’s rights” mindset is an important one. MRAs act like any assertion of women’s rights is a blow to men’s rights, because even if they won’t say it aloud, they make clear that they consider anything less than a totally male-empowering culture unacceptable. It’s the same kind of total control that an abusive husband needs to feel he has over his wife.

I’ve encountered isolated incidents of misandry in my life, as has everyone, I assume; but the claim that any kind of institutional misandry exists is bullshit, and farcical in a country whose government is mostly made up of males.

Comment #1: Triplanetary  on  11/13  at  10:13 PM

(Wow. Sacks sounds a lot like Randall Terry on Tiller in his crocodile tears about crazy entitled-feeling men murdering women they can’t control.)

Thinking about MRA types and other abusers minimizing the stuff they do seems to have a lot of parallels to the “debate” about certain kinds of torture. In both areas so much depends on context and power relations; to a listener who doesn’t understand (or wilfully ignores) the context, many of the abusive actions seem minor, and complaints about them like pointless whining. (In context, of course, the fact that the abuse is being done by people who can kill you at any time, or with whom you may be stuck spending the rest of your life, is crucially important.) There’s probably a huge overlap in pro-torture and pro-MRA beliefs.

Comment #2: paul  on  11/13  at  10:27 PM

Huh—I’m embarrassed to admit that until this moment, I’d always thought “MRA” was short for “Men’s ‘Rights’ Assholes,” rather than “Activists.”
I still think my take might be a more accurate reflection of the reality, though, no?

Comment #3: smartalek  on  11/13  at  10:30 PM

Kathryn Joyce:  “MRA groups’ predictions of future violence by fed-up men wronged by the family-law system seem an obvious additional correlation, with the threat of violence seemingly intended to intimidate a community, like a fearful spouse, into compliance.”

Sounds like MRAs are calling for a take-back-the-violence movement.

Comment #4: oldfeminist  on  11/13  at  10:34 PM

Terrorism: using violence or threats of violence to achieve political ends.  That’s what the MRA’s sound like when they say we must roll back women’s rights or face a backlash from fed-up men.
“Why do you make me hit you?” is what they are saying.  And we’re supposed to take them seriously?  Hah!

Comment #5: gravitybear  on  11/13  at  10:46 PM

The really sad thing is, there really does need to be a legitimate Men’s Rights Movement.  There needs to be a social movement that help push back at society when The Patriarchy Hurts Men Too.  But, every time this idiots have a legitimate complaint (boys aren’t engaging in school and graduating in lower numbers, say) they’re solution is “let’s disenfranchise the women”.  It’s really, really, stupid.

Comment #6: Antigone  on  11/13  at  10:50 PM

“MRA groups’ predictions of future violence by fed-up men wronged by the family-law system seem an obvious additional correlation, with the threat of violence seemingly intended to intimidate a community, like a fearful spouse, into compliance.”

I love the implication that there’s something society can do to prevent the violence, like the guys who do this shit have an achievable version of “enough.” Even in a completely whacked out fantasyland hyper patriarchy, the vast majority of these dudes would run into the same problem libertarian apocalyptic overlord-of-blowjobs fantasists would: their woman-dominating desires would be thwarted by other, more powerful men or groups of men instead of running untrammeled over the realm.

Comment #7: preying mantis  on  11/13  at  10:55 PM

“But, every time this idiots have a legitimate complaint (boys aren’t engaging in school and graduating in lower numbers, say) they’re solution is “let’s disenfranchise the women”.  It’s really, really, stupid.”

Not really.  They are the patriarchy, in most cases.  They don’t actually give a shit about boys doing poorly in school or young men failing to graduate or fathers being unfairly shut out of their children’s lives.  It’s just a convenient stick to use when they’re lashing out at women.  You know, like the fetus-huggers don’t actually give a shit about babies, but they’re a dash cunning cover for attempts to panty-sniff and slut-punish.  There are guys’ groups out there who take things like that seriously, and who are trying to organize against PHMT issues, but you can usually tell when they’re sincere where MRAs aren’t because they aren’t, for instance, objectively pro-rape.

Comment #8: preying mantis  on  11/13  at  11:06 PM

Antigone:

For guys to helping push back at all the places where patriarchy hurts men, they have to accept the notion that patriarchy is a bad idea. The ones who end p as useful idiots for the MRAs and so forth mostly seem to want a sort of Patriarchy Lite, where men are less oppressed because women take better care of them.

Comment #9: paul  on  11/13  at  11:07 PM

I asked RADAR’s Mark Rosenthal about the ties between groups like RADAR—claiming, however cynically, to have egalitarian motives—and the blunt anti-feminist positions of men’s movement allies like Chapin or Angry Harry. “I’d like to suggest that what you’ve just done is interview Martin Luther King and Malcolm X,” he told me.

Mr. Rosenthal?  When the Dr. King of your movement is the guy saying that he doesn’t enthusiastically endorse shooting random women to death on the streets, but he has a lot of sympathy for the guys who do it because, damn it, sometimes that bitch of an ex-wife gets you so mad...your movement has a problem.

Comment #10: Shaenon  on  11/13  at  11:32 PM

The really sad thing is, there really does need to be a legitimate Men’s Rights Movement.  There needs to be a social movement that help push back at society when The Patriarchy Hurts Men Too.  But, every time this idiots have a legitimate complaint (boys aren’t engaging in school and graduating in lower numbers, say) they’re solution is “let’s disenfranchise the women”.  It’s really, really, stupid.

I see that as being part and parcel of feminism. I mean, feminism obviously isn’t a monolithic thing, but the questioning of established notions of gender goes all the way back to the first wave. So if I have an interest in questioning established gender notions, both male and female, I have no problem identifying as a feminist.

Comment #11: Triplanetary  on  11/13  at  11:35 PM

The ones that need to be reached are the ones that go, “Your tone is just too angry. I’m taking my balls and going home!”

Comment #12: ginmar  on  11/13  at  11:54 PM

Even in a completely whacked out fantasyland hyper patriarchy, the vast majority of these dudes would run into the same problem libertarian apocalyptic overlord-of-blowjobs fantasists would: their woman-dominating desires would be thwarted by other, more powerful men or groups of men instead of running untrammeled over the realm.

Which was George Sodini’s problem, anyway, wasn’t it? There were lots of available women out there, but he (like many MRAs and assorted douchebags out there) only wanted 18-year-old nymphomaniac swimsuit models. Of which there are only a few thousand? maybe? in the world. Even in a complete Handmaid’s Tale patriarchy, Sodini would be stuck with one of us gross (‘non-model’) old (25+) women.

See, MRAs? The problem is, there’s too many of you! Now why don’t you all go off to the antarctic with a boat full of rusty spoons and sort it out amongst yourselves.

Comment #13: Floyd  on  11/13  at  11:56 PM

But Floyd, you haven’t grasped how even in a double-down everybody god of his own planet patriarchy that lack of USDA prime young booty would be the fault of the women. In our patriarchy-lite version, it’s the fault of the feminists for preventing the tops dog from killing or running out of town all the second-raters, the way that the fundamentalists mormon patriarchs kick out their unwanted young men. So an MRA is going to blame a woman for the fact that Hugh Hefner didn’t have him killed in his mid-teens.

Comment #14: paul  on  11/14  at  12:18 AM

I’m pretty sure every two-bit MRA imagines himself in the Hefner position and not in the second-rater position, just like all the slack-jawed Randroid morons think they’re the supermen and not the worthless plebes.

Comment #15: junk science  on  11/14  at  12:23 AM

Triplanetary-

Generally, I think feminism focuses on women’s concerns.  I mean, I don’t know a single, solitary feminist that goes “Oh, it’s so awesome that boys are falling behind academics”, and most women I know despair over the fact that intellectualism is seen as “feminine” and therefore bad.  But, it’s not really something the larger feminist movement can address- I think it’s something that people like Hugo Schwyzer or Barry Deustch would have to do.  Because, at the end of the day, when children look to models to emulate, they look to models that are Most Like Them.  And generally, that means of the same skin color and the same gender (since that’s what we’re first taught as our identity).  So, yeah, a sort of Men’s Branch of the feminist movement, I guess.

Comment #16: Antigone  on  11/14  at  12:42 AM

I think right-wing movements feed on a feeling of helplessness.  The theme is always the same, no matter what group you look at - we had rights, just a little bit ago, and they were stripped away from us by (X).  It was a travesty, and we should be angry about it.  Also, it’s like racism (seriously, every right-wing movement I can think of *other* than racists uses Dred Scott or Jim Crow as an analogy).

It’s really effective, if there’s even a little hook to get in with.  The people who believe this stuff believe it wholeheartedly, frequently without the cynicism you’d think would be necessary to deny the rights of huge segments of the population.

Thanks for linking the article.  It was a really good read.

Comment #17: Ferox  on  11/14  at  12:57 AM

Antigone: I guess I agree, although I might argue that if feminism focuses on women’s concerns, it’s mainly because they’re the ones who have been marginalized. Men have concerns, too, as you point out, but perhaps (?) not as dire. Maybe when the patriarchy is behind us (I can dream) we can label it all “gender issues” but until then the gender issues are pretty lopsided.

But still, you are right. People who are worried about men need to focus on actual problems for men rather than whining that they can’t keep beating their wives.

Comment #18: Triplanetary  on  11/14  at  01:14 AM

Actually, since the letter of warning was based on a custody fight, I can understand why the FBI was not inspired to urgently investigate Roeder (at least based on that info).

Comment #19: tomonthebay  on  11/14  at  01:53 AM

<i>The really sad thing is, there really does need to be a legitimate Men’s Rights Movement.  There needs to be a social movement that help push back at society when The Patriarchy Hurts Men Too.  But, every time this idiots have a legitimate complaint (boys aren’t engaging in school and graduating in lower numbers, say) the[ir] solution is “let’s disenfranchise the women”.  It’s really, really, stupid.</a>

I do believe that this is behind the push to defund the humanities and make academic courses more commercial.  Its a male ressentiment movement that accepts that the costs of dominance are a dumbing down of society in general.

Comment #20: scratchy888  on  11/14  at  02:12 AM

I do believe that this is behind the push to defund the humanities and make academic courses more commercial.  Its a male ressentiment movement that accepts that the costs of dominance are a dumbing down of society in general.

It’s the educated/monied version of the kind of wingnuttery that makes poor whites happy to live in a box under a bridge as long as the brown people next to them have nothing.

Comment #21: Sour Kraut  on  11/14  at  03:36 AM

So, yeah, a sort of Men’s Branch of the feminist movement, I guess.

I like the term, “Gentleman’s Auxiliary.”

Triplanitary: I (sort of?) disagree.  Feminism has to be concerned with gender issues broadly because the oppressive gender roles only exist in concert with one another.  A heteronormative, submissive, wifely role presumes the existence of a heteronormative dominant patriarch (which in turn presumes the existence of a broader patriarchy).  If gender is the mode of oppression, any liberation is going to dramatically affect male and female gender roles.

Having said that, gendered oppression has a particularly harmful effect on women, and so their concerns are rightly the focus of feminism since their concerns are most pressing—I just think you get to doing “gender issues” because things are lopsided rather than in spite of it.

Comment #22: Thom  on  11/14  at  05:23 AM

I’m Irish, and you’re not alone with this problem. We have our home-grown equivalent of MRA, but it’s extremely small. Its public face is basically two wellknown commentators who’ve banged on for years about men being battered by women. They haven’t made much headway, but bizarrely, they haven’t been laughed out of town.

When I first noticed the phenomenon it was the sheer predictable puerility that hit me: the milisecond a subordinate group starts to make real gains, the more powerful group immediately starts shrieking and projecting, regardless of how absurd the case they’re making is.

And by virtue of being part of the powerful group, they’re not always seen as cretins. Thankfully, Ireland is so small that everyone practically knows everyone else, which keeps most people honest most of the time. You seem to have a far greater quota of crazy.

Comment #23: ochon  on  11/14  at  11:08 AM

We were having this exact discussion yesterday at a panel on Men and Anti-Sexist Activism at the National Women’s Studies Association; I was one of three male panelists who teach and work as pro-feminists.  The NWSA is considering adding a “Masculinities” interest group for those of both sexes who want to work on the intersection of maleness and feminism within the women’s studies field.  Most of us are committed to working within feminist structures—without co-opting them—as opposed to going off exclusively into Men’s Studies.  I was teaching women’s studies long before I was teaching men and masculinity, and each informs the other.

But no question, “Gentlemen’s Auxiliary” is a fine term.

Comment #24: Hugo Schwyzer  on  11/14  at  01:24 PM

Which was George Sodini’s problem, anyway, wasn’t it? There were lots of available women out there, but he (like many MRAs and assorted douchebags out there) only wanted 18-year-old nymphomaniac swimsuit models. Of which there are only a few thousand? maybe? in the world. Even in a complete Handmaid’s Tale patriarchy, Sodini would be stuck with one of us gross (’non-model’) old (25+) women.

Ah, but Sodini’s (and most MRAs) window to the world wasn’t reality, where the Angelina Jolies usually wind up with the Brad Pitts, but TV and movies, where even the most schlubby, middle-aged guy has a hawt young wife who’s devoted to him.  (and a line of hotties waiting outside the door, in case she ever ages)

Comment #25: Blue Jean  on  11/14  at  01:27 PM

MRA—Misogynistic, Ranting Assholery

Comment #26: Toonces Tigerlily  on  11/14  at  03:24 PM

Sodini’s problem, like a lot of suicide terrorists’, was a lack of interaction with the real world coupled with suicidal depression.  If you look at his actual patterns of interaction with women, he was mainly vicariously constructing an ideal and negating it, prior to acting on suicidal depression.  I don’t see how his sense of entitlement is more powerful than depression as a motivator, and the fact that his psychological profile is radically different from the standard psych literature on love-shy men, who are too passive to be destructive (which you overlook) should set him off from the pack.  In an era in which men post online diaries of their sexual conquests or self-improvement efforts, he posted the diary of an incipient suicide terrorist.  I do of course suffer from a bit of professional distortion in that my experience is with Middle Eastern suicide terrorism, which is often ascribed to sexual frustration when asociality is the issue.  And Gaza Community Mental Health Center found that status-seeking terrorists (“If I do this I will be somebody”) could be handled by re-integration into extant social networks.

Comment #27: Eurosabra  on  11/14  at  03:53 PM

That’s a good point, Eurosabra.  I do think his sense of entitlement played a part in his acting out against others, though, especially since he seemed to feel the need to avenge himself on women, who had “taken” his pride.  After all, there’s the case of Samira Jassim, who arranged for young women to be raped by her operatives, and then told each victim “You’ll stoned for adultery anyway, so the only way to regain your honor is by becoming a suicide bomber.”

Comment #28: Blue Jean  on  11/14  at  04:17 PM

But, every time this idiots have a legitimate complaint (boys aren’t engaging in school and graduating in lower numbers, say)

No, that’s not a legitimate complaint. White boys are doing fine. The idiots are whining not because “boys are doing poorly” but because girls are doing better, and they don’t want to recognize that the real problem is for boys who are on the wrong end of the racist and classist stick. White privileged MRAs don’t give a shit that young black men are dropping out of school in droves while their sisters are succeeding; but it fits their agenda a lot more to pretend the problem is that boys fail.

Comment #29: mythago  on  11/14  at  09:59 PM

Feminism has to be concerned with gender issues broadly because the oppressive gender roles only exist in concert with one another.  A heteronormative, submissive, wifely role presumes the existence of a heteronormative dominant patriarch

I’d go even a little further than that: insofar as there are lots of nonfeminist (I’m not sure submissive is necessarily the right term, because the nominally submissive role often wields quite a lot of power) women out there men will be pressured into patriarchal roles by women as well as other men. Sure, the obvious answer is for men not to give in to the pressure, but that’s often not terribly useful advice, say for younger men just figuring things out or older men stuck in a patriarchal social sphere or men of any age who interact a lot with the world at large.

I think that this is one of the issues (cue Betty Friedan et seq) that can lead to some straight men becoming MRAs: they find a strong-willed, capable, energetic, interesting partner, decide to spend their lives together, and suddenly WHAM! the patriarchal frame (cultural, social, economic) tells them that they’re going to reproduce, that the woman is going to take primary responsibility for the kids and household, and the man for income and social status. And of course this division of labor doesn’t really work worth crap, whereupon neither of them is happy and the man starts asking “WTF happened to the interesting babe I married?” Obviously they should be blaming patriarchy, but men have been training to be entitled and unreflective, so it’s so much easier for them to blame women…

Comment #30: paul  on  11/14  at  10:10 PM

Lawsuits that force the victim to continue showing up at court, hiring an attorney, etc. are a good way to keep some kind of control over a woman

Sounds exactly like the end of my parents marriage…
it’s really pathetic.

Comment #31: Danica Lefse Queen  on  11/15  at  02:49 AM

<blockquote> White privileged MRAs don’t give a shit that young black men are dropping out of school in droves while their sisters are succeeding; but it fits their agenda a lot more to pretend the problem is that boys fail. <\blockquote>

It’s the same sort of thing with domestic abuse. MRAs don’t actually care about men who are physically/emotionally/verbally/financially abused by their partners (male OR female), and if they met one they’d probably abuse them too with talk about being “unmanly” and other idiocy. But victims of anything are useful in their shadowplays as long as they keep their mouths shut. MRAs are like the pope complaining about the gluttony of the world.

Comment #32: limes  on  11/15  at  02:55 AM

Oldfeminist:
Take back the violence!

Bwahaha!  My compliments, well-played.

Comment #33: bellacoker  on  11/15  at  03:59 AM

Reading this article, I knew exactly what would happen, and indeed, there are 132 comments on the post from men who are trying to gaslight the situation with lies and randomly fucked up behavior.

It really was fascinating the way the commenters so perfectly demonstrated every single point the article made.

Comment #34: Dan  on  11/15  at  04:51 AM

I live in third world,And actually never knew such a thing existed before encountering some of them in reddit.They sounded to me whiny,illogical and just plain stupid.Seriously,how had they survived this much into society with “that"amount of bullshit?

Comment #35: rainynightswan  on  11/15  at  12:11 PM

Amanda wrote:

Now, I know the FBI probably gets a ton of people trying to use them in order to attack personal enemies, and as such, they probably just write most of this stuff right away. But since this letter was inspired by a custody dispute, I think perhaps they should have had more follow-up.  Custody disputes should be a red flag for violence, in no small part because of the right wing’s growing interest in using child custody issues as a way to oppress and control women.

Yet the story you linked noted that Mark Archer:

sent the letter in an effort to get the FBI to put Roeder on its no-fly list as a “domestic terrorist” so Roeder could not visit his 7-year-old daughter.

“I did have an ulterior motive,” Archer said.

There was never any allegation made that Mr Roeder threatened violence against Mr Archer, his wife or their daughter!  Would you really want to see federal law enforcement being used in such a manner?  All that someone would have to do is tell the FBI about an uncorroborated threat to a third party, and the person complained about would be put on a no-fly list.

Your article moved away from the Roeder case, but it has to be noted that he wasn’t under surveillance because there was no crime for which he was being investigated before he killed Dr Tiller.  Do you really want to get to a position where law enforcement is tracking people in advance because they might commit a crime sometime in the future?

Comment #36: Dana  on  11/15  at  02:57 PM

MRAs don’t actually care about men who are physically/emotionally/verbally/financially abused by their partners (male OR female), and if they met one they’d probably abuse them too with talk about being “unmanly” and other idiocy.

I weep to think about how they’d treat a legitimate male victim of abuse.  I also wonder how many male victims don’t come forward because they’re afraid of being called a pussy.  MRAs are part of the problem on every level.

Comment #37: keshmeshi  on  11/15  at  04:15 PM

Do you really want to get to a position where law enforcement is tracking people in advance because they might commit a crime sometime in the future?

Actually, Dana, it’s not unusual for LEO follow a suspected armed robber to bust him/her when they do rob a minimart or other targeted business.

Comment #38: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/15  at  06:11 PM

I have to wonder if we as a society aren’t seriously underestimating the impact of divorce on men. For many of them, it seems like their wife is their only source of emotional support, and they’ve got nowhere to turn when she rejects/betrays/abandons them. And then the MRAs (or a similarly hateful group) show up and start cultivating that pain into anger and bitterness against the ex-wife and/or women in general, and we all know how it goes from there…

Comment #39: Devonian  on  11/15  at  07:52 PM

Devonian:

For large chunks of our society that’s not a bug it’s a feature.

Comment #40: paul  on  11/15  at  09:22 PM

Devonian:
What is the alternative?  Making women stick around and emotionally support men with whom they no longer want to be associated?

I have to wonder if we as a society aren’t seriously underestimating the impact of raising people to think women aren’t as real as they are on, well, everyone.

Comment #41: bellacoker  on  11/15  at  10:33 PM

Devonian: the solution here is for dudes to get some therapy, not chain women into a marriage they hate. I don’t think it’s the wife’s fault the husband forgot all his friends he could talk to once they got married/never had any emotional intimacy with males ever.

Comment #42: limes  on  11/15  at  11:36 PM

On one hand, it’s important to push back against a movement that, in its various forms, wants de facto legalization of rape (through automatically prosecuting all victims when the case wasn’t proven by the prosecutor)

Isn’t it amazing how similar this is the extreme Muslim groups who require a woman to have four male witnesses before she can even accuse a man of rape?

Comment #43: bananacat  on  11/16  at  12:01 AM

I have to wonder if we as a society aren’t seriously underestimating the impact of divorce on men.

It isn’t each woman’s responsibility to take care of the poor menz.  Our society is certainly fucked up and of course it hurts men too, but that doesn’t mean that women should have to sacrifice their freedom, health, or even life to make sure that the poor little menz aren’t sad.

I am so sick of feeling sorry for men because they don’t get what they want.  This is no different than someone calling me “shallow” because I won’t pity-date every insecure loser that I meet, just to make him feel good about himself.  What we need to do is raise our sons and teach adult men to form good relationships.  This won’t happen by pitying the poor sad babies and allowing them to continually hurt women and children.

There are plenty of men that I have real pity for.  I hate it that male rape victims are taken even less seriously than female rape victims.  I hate it that men are looked down on for taking care of their very own children, especially if they do it full time.  I hate it that men who are actually victims of domestic abuse are trivialized by this MRA myth that tries to make it seem like all men are victims.  There are plenty of things that suck for men, but I refuse to feel sorry for them just for losing their privilege or not getting to have their egos constantly stoked by exerting dominance over women.  We need to have priorities, and hurt feelings do not trump abuse.

Comment #44: bananacat  on  11/16  at  12:10 AM

“I have to wonder if we as a society aren’t seriously underestimating the impact of divorce on men.”

I have to wonder if you’re not underestimating the extent to which those men most socially impacted by divorce are also those men most socially maladapted to begin with.

Comment #45: preying mantis  on  11/16  at  09:50 PM
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