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The illusion of control

Jeff at Alas, A Blog blogged about this irritating, smug idiocy from Firedoglake's Janet Rhodes, who blogs about how she is completely willing to destroy this country in order to punish Barack Obama for not running the debt ceiling discussions in the way she believes he should have.  She claims to have told a representative from the DNC that she's so mad at Obama for "caving" that she'll be voting for the Republican in November, even if that Republican is Michele Bachmann. 

Now, I personallly have little patience for people trying to prove how hard they are generally speaking, and especially when said people are highly privileged liberals preening like they're tough because they'll "punish" the Democrats with their precious, precious votes---didn't you know their votes count five times as much as yours?  Well, they should anyway.  The belief that the choice is to do things 100% your way or to give up altogether is what drives the Tea Party, which is why Rhodes has functionally become a Tea Partier, who will give the resentment vote to whatever asshole the GOP runs.  I'm not going to argue the relative merits of Obama over fucking Bachmann, or Perry, or Romney.  That just creates more opportunity for idiots and assholes to preen about how they're lefter-than-thou, so left that they're willing to destroy this country in order to make a point about how superior they are to everyone else. 

Instead I'm going to talk about the illusion of control, which also feeds this ridiculousness.  The illusion of control is the belief that you (or one of your allies) personally has the power to make everything go your way, and having complete control of the eventual outcome is just a matter of making the right move.  In this case, Rhodes has convinced herself we can elect Republicans until Democrats, chastised for being too conservative, start acting right, even though the whole of history tells us that Democrats look at Republicans winning elections and think, "What I need to do is move to the right, because that's where winning happens."  But in reality, you don't have control.  You have power and you have influence and you have hard work, and these can affect outcomes, but some times shit is out of your control.  Refusing to believe this can drive a person around the bend, as demonstrated by Rhodes, as they become increasingly irrational, looking for that magic bullet that's going to make everyone else start behaving the way they want them to.  If you let go of the illusion that you can, if you play your cards right, determine the outcome with certainty, you can actually be more effective.  You can shift your attention from trying to control the outcome to trying to exert influence and accumulate power.  But in order to do this, you must be willing to lose.

I would recommend a little memento mori to rid yourself of this toxic illusion of control.  if you start thinking, "If I could just make him realize how mad I am at him, Obama would suddenly turn into a superhero who could get Republicans who literally believe he's Satan to cow before his mighty powers and his newly invigorated progressive agenda," it's time to step down, and think about the fact that one day, you will be dead.  Not just in the abstract---I recommend thinking about how your death will come with a lot of suffering.  Most of us don't just get to pass away gently in our sleep.  You might be crushed in a car accident or come down with cancer that causes you to be so mangled by pain that death starts to look like sweet release.  Now that you've pictured one of the many horrible possibilities that is the end of your life, remind yourself there's nothing you can do to stop it.  You can take measures minimizing how bad it's going to be: you can eat right and wear a seatbelt and go to the doctor regularly.  But one day, crushing pain will overcome you, your heart will stop, your bowels will release, and the people who loved you will be torn with grief.  And there's nothing---nothing---you can do to change that outcome.

If that doesn't work, then I recommend you thinking about how the human race will eventually die out, and at best, we can delay this outcome, but one way or another, all species go extinct eventually, and that also means our species.  And there's nothing you can do to stop it.  Influence it, sure.  Accumulate power that will increase your influence, sure.  But control it?  Nope.

I find this personally allows me to let go of the illusion that the only thing between me and the way I wish things would be is taking the right measures.  If you're going to lose the same battle with death that everyone else loses, then it makes it a lot easier to grasp that the reason that government isn't working the way you wish, it's because there are too many factors in play to give you control.  And that you cannot gain that control by preening like you're so hard core you're willing to vote for the Republican rather than allow a Democrat to make decisions that you disagree with, especially when it's based in having knowledge you may not have.  

I'm personally becoming more convinced every day that our political culture is so toxic in this country because suffering from the illusion of control. I notice, too, that people who fall into illusion-of-control thinking---the Nader constiuency on the left, the Tea Party on the right---tend to have relatively high levels of privilege.  I'm not "calling out" their privilege, which is a useless exercise in guilt-tripping to no avail.  It's more that I think people who are used to things working out for them get easily frustrated in politics, where almost nothing ever goes completely your way, because there's so many groups of people with different agendas influencing the outcome.  The notion that there's some way to just get your way in a hot hurry is widespread on the left and the right.

*It's created the Tea Party, people who are sincerely convinced that being big enough assholes will somehow make the country go back to being completely controlled by white Christians, preferably conservative ones.

*Many of the more irritating tendencies on the left also go back to this.  For instance,the belief that changing the language around a concept will have a dramatic effect on meaning, even though, for instance, replacing "liberal" with "progressive" simply made right wingers start bashing progressives like they did liberals.

*God knows on the right you see this with sex.  One reason the culture wars are so out of hand is that right wingers just continue to insist that by withdrawing education and access, you can actually bring an end to fucking for pleasure.  Talk about illusion of control!  

*It also causes liberal tendencies to misread who the Tea Party is.  No matter how much evidence you pile up to show that Tea Partiers tend to be wealthier than average Americans, liberals continue on portraying them as economically stressed people.  The reason is that it feeds the illusion of control---if Tea Partiers are under-privileged somehow, then we can write off their anger as an irrational response to real stress.  And that therefore the removal of that stress will shut them up and get this country back on track.  But if we look at the facts, we realize these people aren't being driven to be douchebags, but that's their natural state.  And we have to accept that there's nothing we can actually do to change their minds or shut them up, and that therefore the possibility remains that we can lose. 

I could go on, but this post is getting long enough.  I just want to point out that the illusion of control ironically diminishes your power in the world.  Time spent chasing phantoms is time not spent doing the hard work of trying to exert influence.  I realize that working with the ultimate understanding that you can easily fail no matter what you do can be demoralizing.  The cure for that is, in my experience, to give yourself  permission to enjoy small victories even if they fall short of perfection.  So, for instance, someone who has relinquished the illusion of control can look at the HHS requiring full coverage of contraception and say, "Hurrah! We got one!"  And someone who is still stuck in the illusion of control says, "Sure, that's good, but the Christian right is still out there and as long as we haven't wiped them out completely, it's not time to break out the champagne."  The latter person no doubt styles themselves as a cynic and a hardcore progressive, but in reality, they are someone who retains the illusion that perfection is achievable, and that therefore being happy with "good" is selling out.  They, in other words, are an idealist trapped in the illusion of control, and their inability to accept incremental victories is demoralizing to the people around them who are willing to fight through many losses and enjoy even minor victories. Meanwhile, the person who allows themselves to feel good about achieving something, even if it fell short of perfection, is someone who can get up the next day and fight for the next incremental change. 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 09:02 AM • (385) Comments

Well, that’s an interesting theory, and it may be correct in the case of Rhodes, though I have often read, Amanda, these psychoanalyses of people and wondered what your qualifications are for these long distance peeks into the psyches of others.  In my own case, however, I will not vote for Obama in 2012 and probably won’t bother voting.  It has nothing to do with control or making others do what I want.  It is recognition of the waste of time that voting has become as well as recognition of the fact hat none of the candidates will represent me.  They all represent someone else, and it appears to be that they all represent a very narrow slice of extremely wealthy interests rather than me or even the well-being of the constituency as a whole.

Why waste the time?  Voting is a very minor inconvenience, and I used to do it (did it for over 30 years, in fact, in every election no matter how large or small…used to vote in February in New Jersey on school budgets when only a thousand or so would turn out in my district) with glee.  I used to like doing it.  Now it isn’t worth it.  You vote for a candidate and if the wealthy interests want him or her to win, then he or she wins.  If not, then he or she loses.  But the victory has nothing to do with my vote.  The media, by and large, control the elections, and the media is owned by a very small number of very wealthy people.  If the wealthy people are happy with their current puppet in the White House, he’ll be re-elected.  If not, he’ll lose to Bachmann or Perry or Romney or whatever puppet they pick.

I sometimes think of the Bill Hicks bit about newly elected presidents are taken into a room and shown a video of the Kennedy assassination from a camera angle that has never been made public…

Comment #1: DBK  on  08/15  at  10:15 AM

I knew in my heart of hearts that the first comment would be someone suffering from the all-or-nothing mentality saying, “Nuh-uh!”  And so it was a good chance for me to practice letting go of the illusion of control.  I realize people suffering from it aren’t going to admit that they are suffering from it, and that’s okay.  That’s out of my control. I’m willing to accept tantrum-throwing is the price I’m going to pay for speaking out like this.  I can’t control that.  Accepting in my heart that some people are so devoted to their ego-stroking illusion of control that criticism of it will just create squawking is what it took for me to gather the courage to write this.  If I wasn’t able to accept that I can’t reach everyone through their heavy investment in ego over effectiveness, my own ego would have caused me not to say this and instead pander.  Which would have reduced my influence.

See how it works?  By letting go of the illusion that my awesome argument will convince people whose egos are deeply attached to this toxic way of thinking, I was able to improve my influence in the world, and perhaps sway some people who are less attached to the idea that the democratic system is about their way or the highway.

Comment #2: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/15  at  10:27 AM

Well, one way to avoid this illusion is not to buy what purity trolls are selling.

Comment #3: shah8  on  08/15  at  10:35 AM

I think you have that backwards - the people who are making the “arguments” that Amanda just made are the purity trolls.

I really thought better of you than this, Amanda.

Comment #4: Geocrackr  on  08/15  at  10:39 AM

How am I “pure”, Geo?  I really am curious what your rationalizations are.

Comment #5: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/15  at  10:41 AM

I think I love you for this post.

Comment #6: igglanova  on  08/15  at  10:42 AM

Of course, I’m not going to pretend they’re anything but rationalizations, but I do think it’s generally good for me to inure myself a little more through the hoops people are going to jump through, lest my frustration at the stupidity overcomes me as we careen towards President Rick Perry on the backs of leftists who hate sullying themselves with victories that are less than complete.

Comment #7: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/15  at  10:43 AM

I precisely commented on this issue yesterday at Daily Kos, also precisely stating that leaving the presidential slot blank was my decision only, I had no idea what others should do.  I also stated it had nothing to do with ego or pride, to me the issue is acquiescence to abuse.  Which is exactly what Obama has done to the the liberal Democratic base, abused us.  Proposing Medicare and Social Security cuts is abuse.

I’m very sensitive to issues of abuse, I won’t tolerate beyond a certain level (no one is perfect,  stress and mistakes happen).  Obama crossed the line long ago be being such a rank DOD warmonger alone, let alone everything else.

It never occurred to me to control any outcome or any person, I have written many times I’m a small guy doing tiny things.  It’s laughable to state I live a life of humility, but I can say that in this case, for this voter, that I’m not voting for a Republican, I’m not voting for Obama, and the isse of control in the matter is negligible, if present at all.

Comment #8: paradox  on  08/15  at  10:44 AM

I think a lot of this goes back to the failure of liberals to brand ourselves the “good guys” when it comes to every issue.  This causes conservatives the ability to attack us without a widespread backlash and claim their own “good guy” status when it comes to the issues.  I’ve been thinking about this for a while, liberals and Democrats need to create the “Good Guy Coalition.”  It will be a PR organization of various liberal associated people.  For example: union workers, teachers, scientists, environmentalists, ACLU lawyers, small businesspeople, activists of different types, doctors, community organizers, civil rights leaders, etc.  You know, people who have been attacked and smeared by the right and their policies without consequence.  These people should be highlighted and given hero status so that the public will stand behind them when they are attacked by conservatives.

This might be irrelevant to the specific post, but it’s part of the bigger picture.

Comment #9: Albert Cirrus  on  08/15  at  10:45 AM

I agree with this.  My thought has always been that the biggest personality component for people on the fundie/teabagger/rightwing side is - control freak.  Nice* to see we have them on the left, too.  I’m thinking the difference might be that the basis for the control freak on the right is fear, and on the left is purity, as shah puts it.

Obama is not nearly left-wing enough for me, and my representatives, though Democrats, are causing me to gnash my teeth with their monthly emails espousing ‘bipartisanship’, and deficit reduction, but I will still trudge about my neighborhood (and others) to get out the vote in 2012 (and beyond).


*not really.

Comment #10: mingo  on  08/15  at  10:48 AM

I liked this article, Amanda. Even those of us not at tantrum-throwing point can use the reminder that, say, kicking out two Republicans in Wisconsin is better than a poke in the eye. I mean, I like to win, and I get disappointed when I come up short, sometimes, but it is bound to happen.
Sitting here in Arizona, watching what essentially unchecked Republicans do, it boggles me that any blogger can argue there’s no difference, and I have a friend that’s a PUMA.(She’s a very good friend, but the price I pay for her devotion is reading how much she hates the President once a day for three years. It’s just tiring. I’m not wowed by her dissident moxie, or frightened by her crone wisdom or sensuality…I just wish she’d let it go. Especially since I thought she’d at least be impressed by the contraceptive thing, but it doesn’t fit her narrative of “Barack Obama:Stealth Misogynist”(Where’s Don Pardo when you need him?Grin) so she doesn’t say anything.

Comment #11: chicating  on  08/15  at  10:49 AM

You know, left wing Obama haters (the deranged ones, like Rhodes, not people with legitimate criticisms who are much more numerous) couch their hatred in policy terms, just like the Tea Partiers do, but as with the Tea Partiers, I don’t buy it. This isn’t about policy. Just like I don’t believe thousands of older, upper class white people were massing in the streets over “spending”, I don’t believe a privileged “lifelong Democrat” is going to vote for Michelle Bachmann over a debt ceiling compromise. With the Tea Partiers, there’s an easy answer as to what it’s really about, race and hatred of liberalism. With the FDL people…I’m not sure. But it ain’t policy minutiae, it’s too personal for that.

Comment #12: typist  on  08/15  at  10:49 AM

Brilliant post Ms. Marcotte. This concept of “Illusion of Control” is something have been considering a lot as well, and not only in politics but also in my personal and professional life. Your suggested “memento mori” exercise is also quite interesting. Personally, I have to really start to consider my own death in repeatedly and in detail before it becomes real to me; this is a meditation that takes some focus.

Comment #13: atheist  on  08/15  at  10:52 AM

Excellent post Amanda.

If you look at times of upheaval, partisans and activists were very upset that the political leaders were quick to sell them out.

Abolitionists thought that Lincoln was a sellout when in reality, Lincoln was able to read what he could get away with.  If he pushed too hard he would have lost the border states and he made a strategic pragmatic decision not to include border states loyal to the union in the Emancipation Proclomation.

In our current system when there is a general election they will be two people who have a chance to get elected.  Look at Nebraska.  Ben Nelson is a senator that from a liberal perspective leaves a lot to be desired and isn’t a true ally of liberals.  However he will be running against Jim Bruning who recently compared people on public assistance to scavaging raccoons.  Should a liberal be preening and self satisfied in saying ‘there is no difference’ and sit out the race between Nelson and Bruning.  If they persuade enough people to sit out the election they will cause Bruning to be the next senator from Nebraska.

Its kind of like the self satisfied Nader voters who get all butthurt whenNyou point out that the 97K Florida Nader voters helped Bush become president.

Comment #14: Brian7  on  08/15  at  10:52 AM

In 1994, 57% of self-identified Democrats wanted Clinton to gain re-election, in 2011, 70% of Democrats want Obama to gain re-election. I guess we didn’t have alt.politics.puma to let us know there was a problem back in the day.

He also leads all named Republican candidates in states he won to give him the electoral landslide in 2008 (North Carolina, Colorado, etc.) The only reason it’s close is because independents haven’t yet digested the craziness of the GOP candidate, which also probably explains the stupid center-right deficit-flogging triangulation of the last few months.

Comment #15: norbizness  on  08/15  at  10:52 AM

But one day, crushing pain will overcome you, your heart will stop, your bowels will release, and the people who loved you will be torn with grief.  And there’s nothing—-nothing—-you can do to change that outcome.

Well, that sure cheered up my Monday morning. Though you’re totally right, not only about this but your larger point as well.

Comment #16: felagund  on  08/15  at  10:52 AM

Thanks to paradox for the reminder that a lot of this attitude is about narcissism and paranoia, too, the irrational belief that the Democrats do what they do because they’re actually out to get you personally.

Comment #17: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/15  at  10:53 AM

I don’t know…their girl lost? Although the idea that HRC wouldn’t get treated the same would make me laugh if the whole topic weren’t so high-stakes. The enemy is at least as sexist as it is racist.

Comment #18: chicating  on  08/15  at  10:54 AM

Yes, yes yes yes yes. The people going for the all-or-nothing mentality just don’t understand how politics work. Bills are passed via compromise. It is very, very rare to get everything-you-dreamed-of legislation passed. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t fight for it. But it does mean that we should be aware that what we are fighting for is unlikely to be won in its entirety, and we should take time to celebrate the “things just got a little bit better” moments lest we become jaded.

Comment #19: Charlie Kilian  on  08/15  at  10:56 AM

There is a bigger problem than those who have this illusion of control and that is those who are completely demoralized and have given up. This is illustrated by DBK in comment 1. Voting for a rep is a boneheaded move, but at least the person making threatening to do that is trying to find a way to change things. Even if its the wrong way. BTW, I doubt she’ll follow through. It’s the kind of topic that gets lots of traffic to your post.

 

Comment #20: librarian  on  08/15  at  10:57 AM

I think DBK is a good example of how the illusion of control it leads to an all or nothing attitude. We either obsess over what we should’ve have done differently to change the situation, or we completely give up since we can’t control the situation. DBK has clearly taken the latter route. I donated, volunteered, and voted for Obama in 2008. I worked really hard partially due to the illusion of control (and a few other illusions). Next year, I will vote for him, but I won’t put the same time or money into his campaign. I’ll find other things to do with my time and money. I may volunteer for or donate to Gov. Perdue or Rep. Miller (if he still has a district) or find a new favorite charity, or work on my physical/mental fitness.

I think a lot of us we’re naive to think that the victories of 2006 and 2008 would turn the national political/cultural tide. Obama has disappointed in certain ways, but we fundamentally need to build progressive infrastructure at the state and local levels before we can expect a tidal shift at the national level.

Comment #21: penn  on  08/15  at  10:57 AM

Yeah it really does seem that a lot of the Obama hatred is driven by PUMA diehards. I underestimated this because it’s so thoroughly mad…

Comment #22: typist  on  08/15  at  10:58 AM

norb, I hope you’re right, but I’m steeling myself for the possibility of the Republican strategy—-destroy the economy, blame Obama, reap the rewards—-will work.  And I’m not sure how much can be done to stop it.  I mean, we fight because we must, but I think the only thing that keeps me from losing my shit is just taking a long view of all this.  The country may have to really hit a rock bottom before Americans stop handing power to Republicans in a fit of resentment and childishness.

Comment #23: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/15  at  10:58 AM

Voting is the absolute least you can do and barely requires any emotional involvement. I can understand that people might not have the mental or emotional energy to get involved with or volunteer for the campaign, but voting for Obama is literally the least you can do.

Sometimes I think the problem is that liberals have invested too much in promoting voting as the be all and end all of involvement and how voting is like the most important thing you can do for your country. It’s really not. It’s a tiny act that you should do even/especially if you don’t have the time or energy to do anything else.

Comment #24: Tyro  on  08/15  at  10:59 AM

It definitely is all Obama’s fault, he should have made us vote for Democrats in the 2010 election, or at least pretended like having a crazy Republican House of Representatives didn’t matter. I have a feeling a lot of people were suffering from unitary executive poisoning of the aughts.

Comment #25: norbizness  on  08/15  at  11:00 AM

Amanda: If most independents, semi-malleable right-leaning people, and the 30% of Democrats that don’t support Obama’s re-election (from the right or left) actually believe that the stimulus didn’t do anything for us, then we’re well on our way to bottoming out.

Comment #26: norbizness  on  08/15  at  11:03 AM

I think that’s an interesting and useful approach, penn.  I think the all-or-nothing attitude also tends to focus a ton of energy on the President, because people hope that winning this one big and powerful office will cure everything.  But at best, it can buttress disaster.  Real victory can only come from extremely gradual change by electing people in smaller roles that are more to the left, bit by bit.  And even that can only happen by changing people’s minds bit by bit, and that’s extremely hard work—-your average person will take years to change a false belief.  What we need to do is stop seeing ourselves as people fighting for total victory, but people who are laying the foundation.  And we’re doing it by hand, brick by brick. 

Susan B. Anthony never saw women get the vote.  If you find yourself wanting to scream and throw tantrums, I think meditating on that fact can be soothing.

Comment #27: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/15  at  11:03 AM

Amanda, you are completely wrong, and I am dismayed at this meanly arrogant stance of yours, both with me and your post.  I wouldn’t write like this unless I had clinical psychology experience of at least a decade, with at least one post-graduate field degree.

It is not about me, I cannot put my name next to the lying and the death and the deceit.  Since you easily can and will simply get a different brand of death, lying and deceit with your vote I’m glad for you, truly.  Must be nice to have the world so precisely known and squared away that you must truly know why anyone who doesn’t agree is so obviously wrong, wrong for neurological reasons to boot.

You’ve missed it here, Amanda, and your arrogance, defensiveness and meanness demeans your soul, your history and your blog.

Comment #28: paradox  on  08/15  at  11:03 AM

Well, alot of this is about simply waiting for elite factions to value driving out their crazies over class unity.  Least we can do is make it harder for the status quo to persist, and passiveness is something of an enemy in the long fight.

Comment #29: shah8  on  08/15  at  11:03 AM

Woops, hit “Blaspheme” too soon. In my defense I am always eager to blaspheme. What I meant to add was that comment #2 totally hit the mark, and that Firedoglake, like Shakesville, is with what I’m sure are the best of intentions working for the other side.

Comment #30: felagund  on  08/15  at  11:04 AM

What an insightful and unexpectedly beautiful post. I never really understood why my Buddhist friends and relatives have told me that it’s important to meditate on my own eventual death and decay. Now I get it.

Comment #31: MissCherryPi  on  08/15  at  11:05 AM

@28

Your comment can be literally read as a performance of sarcasm, which given you previous commenting history, probably isn’t the case.

If you desire credibility or something like that…well, that ain’t the way to go.

Comment #32: shah8  on  08/15  at  11:06 AM

Hey paradox, if you have all that psychology experience, you ought to be familiar with this dude Freud, who (paraphrasing) said that one thing he knew was that if a patient said it wasn’t all about his mother, it was definitely about his mother.

Comment #33: felagund  on  08/15  at  11:11 AM

I’m steeling myself for the possibility of the Republican strategy—-destroy the economy, blame Obama, reap the rewards—-will work.  And I’m not sure how much can be done to stop it.

And you know what, to a degree, it’s tiresome. It’s not as though there aren’t already countries that have figured out how to have in their countries what we want. I think that’s the difference between Susan B. Anthony’s time—and even that of the Founding Fathers—and now: those activists were fighting for something that had never been done before. We Americans, however, are just agitating to move our country up to modern standards. It’s somewhat easier to fight for something when no alternative exists: you have nothing to lose.

I might also add that we are a country full of people who have operated under the belief that they had control. Trying to explain how we should give that up isn’t really culturally relevant for us.

Comment #34: Tyro  on  08/15  at  11:13 AM

Amanda, I agree that the progressive movement needs to accept that bit-by-bit mentality. How many great city council members, board of education members, mayors, or state representatives are running this year or next that could really use a champions to push their campaign? It’s so much easier to just call a national or statewide campaign and join the existing volunteer army, but I guarantee their are a lot of more local campaigns that would provide a much larger marginal return on our volunteer investments.

Comment #35: penn  on  08/15  at  11:14 AM

@Comment #28: paradox on 08/15 at 11:03 AM

You’ve missed it here, Amanda, and your arrogance, defensiveness and meanness demeans your soul, your history and your blog.

Your attacks on the soul of someone you don’t know, on the other hand, speak so well of you.

Comment #36: atheist  on  08/15  at  11:16 AM

Believe me (and I’m sure Amanda will agree), the agenda we’re seeing today was in the GOP base’s mind in 1980. Even though it doesn’t seem like it to us, they’ve been taking half a loaf for 30 years (compared to what they want, not reality).

Comment #37: RickMassimo  on  08/15  at  11:20 AM

Amanda @23 - I tend to think that we are going to have to get worse before things get better; isn’t there space for people to strategically vote (or not vote) without it being about paranoia or pique? I mean, I’d love a much stronger Labor supporting, less warring president. A Republican won’t be one - but President Obama has proved not to be one, as well. I mean, I don’t think my vote/non vote will change everything in the universe and create Captain President, Perfect Progressive President Who Really Likes Your Mom, but I also don’t think that not voting for Obama is a sign of childishness. There are a lot of legitimate reasons (drone wars! deficit fever!) to consider other options.

Comment #38: the duck-billed placelot  on  08/15  at  11:30 AM

It is not about me, I cannot put my name next to the lying and the death and the deceit.  Since you easily can and will simply get a different brand of death, lying and deceit with your vote I’m glad for you, truly.

Actually, when you put it like that, it kinda seems like it IS about the privileged jackass who insists that the very real, objective differences between Obama and whoever the Republican turns out to be don’t really exist.

And while making a big public stink on a big liberal blog about how you’re just going to leave the “President” field blank (geez, seriously, not about you? Gimme a break) may not make you quite as much of a dillhole as someone making a big public stink about how she’s going to vote Republican instead, it still makes you very publicly foolish and clueless about enacting an agenda that you can support.

Seriously, a great post by Amanda, beyond just the point about control, especially sharp on the point about celebrating small victories. The self-appointed cynics for whom nothing is worth celebrating except complete victory are the people that I find most distressing among liberals, not least because they are fucking everywhere and insist on telling the rest of the world how not-good-enough they are to call themselves progressives. But it really is a long game, and we need to overcome some pretty serious structural deficits before we can achieve those major victories. And part of the solution to that problem is, sorry guys, electing moderate Democrats.

Comment #39: grolby  on  08/15  at  11:36 AM

I’m not sure how effective your memento mori will be in alleviating this attitude: unfortunately, thinking about death makes people more conservative, not less.

And paradox, I don’t think Amanda should be writing like that unless she has twenty, um twenty THOUSAND years of clinical psych experience and FIVE post-graduate degrees.

Yeah, that’s it.

Comment #40: heresiarch  on  08/15  at  11:37 AM

The more I think about it, the more I think Janet Rhodes is voting for Bachmann for the same reason Tea Partiers are: if she can’t have the country she wants, then no one will. Her ressentiment is formulated slightly differently, but the selfish destructive pettiness is exactly the same.

Comment #41: heresiarch  on  08/15  at  11:45 AM

I was thinking of saying something insightful about the human condition based on a lifetime of experience and observation but then I remembered I only have a Bachelor’s degree so I’ll shut up now.

Comment #42: typist  on  08/15  at  11:46 AM

@26
If most independents, semi-malleable right-leaning people, and the 30% of Democrats that don’t support Obama’s re-election (from the right or left) actually believe that the stimulus didn’t do anything for us, then we’re well on our way to bottoming out.

It didn’t. It didn’t revitalize the economy, and it certainly didn’t create a significant number of jobs. Historically, government spending, applied well, creates jobs. So the fact that the US’s population-employment ratio remained flat (and remains flat to this day) through the stimulus demonstrates how terribly mismanaged it was. So, for the 15-25 million (depending on how you count) unemployed Americans who are still unemployed, are they laboring under some false belief that the stimulus didn’t help them? Or did it maybe just not help them?

That said, voting Republican is obviously not the solution to the Democrats’ failure to create jobs. Fucking swing voters who are all “hurr, we voted Dem two years ago, let’s try voting GOP this time, see if that magically fixes shit” piss me off.

So yeah, I’m voting for Obama in 2012. But I’m not excited about it.

Comment #43: Triplanetary  on  08/15  at  11:47 AM

Yes, Obama is farther to the right, on some issues much farther to the right, than I am but when the time comes to vote for him or the Republican candidate, I’ll remember the Supreme Court.  Will Obama choose better or worse justices than the Republican?  That alone is enough to get me out to vote.

That’s not very inspiring, of course, so another thing we can be doing is finding and supporting good candidates for local and state offices.  Those good people will make life better in our own states and cities and get training and experience so they can run for national office in the future. 

Or we can all just complain to each other on the internet.  That will straighten this country out!

Comment #44: Nutella  on  08/15  at  11:51 AM

Tri: Things would be worse without it. Not a great campaign slogan, but it’s objectively true.

Comment #45: norbizness  on  08/15  at  11:55 AM

Vote Democrat or DEATH WILL OCCUR.  I’m being facetious of course, but that one paragraph was pretty dark, even if it is technically true.  Pretty unconventional way of winning people over haha.

Comment #46: alicefairy  on  08/15  at  11:56 AM

My take on all of this: we will have no good, viable choices in 2012, but one of the two bad choices will be significantly worse than the other.  This is an unpleasant, if fairly common, situation for progressives to find ourselves in.  And though I’m not prone to cut people like Janet Rhodes any more political slack than Amanda does—her wish for a GOP victory is an idiotic species of political nihilism—I am prone to cut her a lot more psychological slack.  We are being asked to support a candidate and party whose most recent major “accomplishment”—the debt ceiling deal—harms our economy and threatens the future of Social Security and Medicare.  The awfulness of the other party makes voting for Obama—at least for the minority of us who live in states whose electoral votes are actually up for grabs—absolutely the right thing to do.  But it’s understandable that some balk at the suggestion.  And, in what might be a very close election, it behooves those of us who would prefer to see Obama reelected to try to convince such people why we feel that way, rather than yelling at them and calling them names.

Comment #47: Ben Alpers  on  08/15  at  11:57 AM

The self-appointed cynics for whom nothing is worth celebrating except complete victory are the people that I find most distressing among liberals, not least because they are fucking everywhere and insist on telling the rest of the world how not-good-enough they are to call themselves progressives.

This is a matter of perspective. What I need you to understand is that, from the other side, the Obama apologists who accuse those who are disgruntled with him of being “purists” and “firebaggers” and equate them with blowhards like Janet Rhodes also appear to be “fucking everywhere” and are equally annoying. For myself, I’m tired of the whole debate. There are two enemies we need to focus on: Republicans and the wealthy. The Democrats are one of our weapons against them, but their main value is in keeping as many Republican hands off the government as possible.

Comment #48: Triplanetary  on  08/15  at  11:59 AM

“I cannot put my name next to the lying and the death and the deceit”

Oh good gawd.

paradox, you participate in evil just by being a part of US society. The taxes you pay, the energy you consume. And don’t think your professional life is all purity and light, either. You work for bad people and for ends that are not what you would want in a perfect world. We all do, one way or another.

Put away this adolescent conceit. The adult situation were in, presidential-election-wise, is a choice between sane and insane. Yes, it sucks. It sucked the last three elections, too. But there’s no other responsible action but to hold your nose and vote for the Democrat.

Comment #49: wapsie  on  08/15  at  11:59 AM

So if a person doesn’t vote for Obama they’re evil or dumb or self-centered?  This really seems more like insult hurling than analysis or persuasive argument.

Although I will be voting for Obama again, I think there are valid reasons for not doing so.  Not everybody will have a good reason, but I think that there’s a big enough proportion who do to invalidate the OP and many of the comments.

If there were a 3rd party that was closer to my position and had a strong infrastructure and that I thought had a good chance of eclipsing the minimum vote percentage to receive federal funding, I probably wouldn’t vote for Obama in 2012.  Would that make it all about the illusion of control that I have?  I don’t see it.  Well, not any more of an illusion of control than claiming that any progressive not voting for Obama is due to the illusion of control.

I think that there is a point to be made, I just think that the OP and agreeing comments didn’t quite get there.

Comment #50: Jake Squid  on  08/15  at  11:59 AM

I agree with this, Amanda—particularly the privilege of people who refuse to vote, or use their vote to teach insufficiently liberal politicians some kind of lesson.  Whenever this topic comes up here, I see plenty of people say things like “Why should I give my vote to someone who doesn’t represent me?”  Evidently, because it’s not all about any one of us, and not truly being represented by one’s elected representatives is a condition too many other people in the U.S. experience real suffering under.  It’s not the same thing as having a Congressperson who doesn’t share or respect your principles.

As a very privileged person, I don’t feel good about compromising when I vote, either.  The treatment that Republicans want for women, poor people, people of color, and LGBT people—just to name a few—is terrifying.  It hurts to feel like I’m setting aside their best interests and being pragmatic, which I can well afford to do, when the status quo makes me sick to my stomach.  But the people being hurt most by conservative policies are also being actively disenfranchised by same.  Privileged people like me can’t speak for those people, but we absolutely can stand up for them.  I don’t see how, given that choice, anyone could in good conscience stay home.

Comment #51: themmases  on  08/15  at  12:03 PM

That illusion of control is what makes democracy function. People naturally want power, and when they have it, naturally abuse it. http://www.viruscomix.com/page431.html Voting is supposed to be a check on that power, not just a check on the anger of the mob.

The problem today is the lack of progressive influence, and that is why we see riots brewing and capitulations on such a sweeping scale.

One major issue, little discussed, is that the House of Representatives has been frozen at a set number of members for 100 years. It’s supposed to be a body influenced by the regular attention of voters, but by closing off its membership levels, it has stripped cities of their rightful proportion of influence. This can only be corrected from within the House, and so that important avenue is considered forever closed. A shame, because a large House with a couple thousand reps would diffuse the easy targets that big money could influence, but increase the influence and interest of the people meant to be represented.

The frustrations being seen at FDL and in the London streets are typical of people who perceive they being stripped of their future liberties, and have no effective means to influence this speedy loss. And I do mean speedy: My girlfriend tells me Westminster Council are debating forced relocation of people who live in Council flats (the poor) and then selling the space to “desirables” (the rich).

I normally appreciate the calls for rational calm from Amanda, but unfortunately I am seeing too much deliberate destruction of civilization being committed by elites in the West. Threatening to vote for Bachmann is just a childish tantrum. But framing arguments by asking allies to accept their death before its time? Sorry. That’s for quislings.

We have to do better than that.

Comment #52: Yamara  on  08/15  at  12:04 PM

So if a person doesn’t vote for Obama they’re evil or dumb or self-centered?

No, but if a person votes for Bachman or Perry instead of Obama because Obama has disappointed them as liberals, then they are completely fucking stupid.

Comment #53: Eileen  on  08/15  at  12:04 PM

unfortunately, thinking about death makes people more conservative, not less.

I was just thinking this morning, “I’ve dodged death enough times to know that I cannot do so eternally.”

For some strange reason, I don’t feel anymore conservative than I did when I got up.

People are used to thinking and acting as if they’re immortal, Amanda, and you certainly know what evil lurks in the hearts of people grin

but I guarantee their are a lot of more local campaigns that would provide a much larger marginal return on our volunteer investments.

Word.  I had an embarrassing conversation with someone interested in the local Democratic club who asked why we didn’t have candidates running last year for the Congressional seat.  We have committed to getting a candidate on the City Council next year, and I expect that there will be candidates next year, including myself if the opportunity presents itself.  We are going to have to organize locally, it won’t be easy, but it is doable and worth doing, regardless of the outcome.

Amanda, again, kudos for all you do here and elsewhere on the Internets.

Comment #54: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  08/15  at  12:05 PM

@Comment #50: Jake Squid on 08/15 at 11:59 AM

If there were a 3rd party that was closer to my position and had a strong infrastructure and that I thought had a good chance of eclipsing the minimum vote percentage to receive federal funding, <strike>I probably wouldn’t vote for Obama in 2012.</strike> but there’s no such party.

Fixed that for you.

Comment #55: atheist  on  08/15  at  12:07 PM

I am inclined to believe that Obama’s nomination was the result of major fuckups within the Democratic party over the past couple of decades. While he was clearly the best candidate for the nomination, the bench was very shallow—a world in which Hillary Clinton and John Edwards were the only viable competitors is not a sign of a party that was building leaders, leaving the nominee to be the one who completely lacked the ability to perceive the problems in our country and the threats from Republicans and was a fierce advocate for Democratic ideas and values outside of a sort of wonky “commitment to a bipartisan process” that you see in Brookings Institute forums and among earnest college students who want to be liked.

It’s a slow road, and it doesn’t involve voting for republicans because you want to see everything burn down. It involves taking over your city council seats from the local Rush-listening crank and working from there.

Comment #56: Tyro  on  08/15  at  12:08 PM

heresiarch—good point. Rhodes’ essay actually made me suspect that she was a teabagger who had somehow gotten permission to post a diary. Her attitude and goals were exactly the same.

And it shouldn’t be forgotten that nihilism is ultimately an expression of the desire for control or the illusion of control. “If I can’t have it my way, I’m going to wreck it so no one else can have it. Then they’ll all recognize they should’ve listened to me…”

Comment #57: Scott  on  08/15  at  12:11 PM

Huh. This is an interesting post, and maybe indicts some of my own thinking about the desirability of litigation over political activism and lobbying in achieving social change.

Comment #58: SS451  on  08/15  at  12:11 PM

I wouldn’t write like this unless I had clinical psychology experience of at least a decade, with at least one post-graduate field degree.

I usually dislike the reverse snobbery that suggests extremely educated people are more qualified to speak on a topic than anyone else, but come on. If ordinary people weren’t allowed to make observations about human behavior, 99% of conversation would disappear.

Comment #59: junk science  on  08/15  at  12:12 PM

This piece on Crooked Timber explains the situation pretty well: As was mentioned above, votes and policies are being placed above coalitions.

Absolutely agee about the connection between privilege and perfection.  I’d add What’s The Matter With Kansas? to the list.

Don’t agree with the thought experiment, though.  If some day we’re all gonna die, why do anything?  Why not just kill yourself?  The answer touches on an important concept held in high regard on this blog: Everyone has the right to pleasure.  Even if you might not live to see it, there’s pleasure in helping to build a better future.

Comment #60: NY Expat  on  08/15  at  12:15 PM

Sorry, “not more qualified.”

Comment #61: junk science  on  08/15  at  12:16 PM

Apologies if this is a double post:

This piece on Crooked Timber explains the situation pretty well: As was mentioned above, votes and policies are being placed above coalitions.

Absolutely agee about the connection between privilege and perfection.  I’d add What’s The Matter With Kansas? to the list.

Don’t agree with the thought experiment, though.  If some day we’re all gonna die, why do anything?  Why not just kill yourself?  The answer touches on an important concept held in high regard on this blog: Everyone has the right to pleasure.  Even if you might not live to see it, there’s pleasure in helping to build a better future.

Comment #62: NY Expat  on  08/15  at  12:17 PM

It is a very honest question—Do you want to vote for someone or against someone?  If you are very strongly against the tea party and the right wing, then casting a vote for Obama against the tea party makes very good sense, and I would not argue against that.

On the other hand, I also would not criticize those who chose to vote for someone who more closely represents their views, even of that candidate has no chance of winning.  I respect idealism.

Unfortunately, for us, our first-past-the-post election system leads to game theory for casting votes if you are seeking a result, and this tends to lead to more of the hold-your-nose and vote against votes.  Proportional representation would help for legislative votes, but it is difficult to have a proportional chief executive.

Of course, the electoral college adds its own wrinkle.  I live in California, so I know that my vote doesn’t really matter.  If California is close, then the GOP candidate is winning in a landslide.  If the national election is close, then California is going for Obama in a landslide.  I can vote for whomever I want (assuming that candidate is on the ballot)—or not vote—knowing that my vote won’t make a difference in the final result.

Comment #63: James  on  08/15  at  12:17 PM

I think it goes beyond simply recognizing that we can’t have everything we want, exactly as we want it, and right this minute.

Unless we want to have some sort of “final solution” in which we exterminate everyone who disagrees with us, we are going to have to figure out how to live in the same country, and even in the same county or village, with people who we can’t stand and whose ideas are loathesome to us.

Among other things, this means accepting that we aren’t going to ever have things exactly the way we think they should be.  The best we can hope for is some sort of creative compromise, along with some measure of mutual respect with our opponents.

 

Comment #64: AMM  on  08/15  at  12:19 PM

No, but if a person votes for Bachman or Perry instead of Obama because Obama has disappointed them as liberals, then they are completely fucking stupid.

THIS.

And ya know, I’m starting to see indications that maybe the stupid isn’t as widespread as we thought. My parents have been staunch Republicans for decades, and they both came right out and told, during Trump’s height a few months back, that if he was the GOP nominee, they’d gladly pull the handle for Obama. On top of that, both of them despise Rick Perry, though that may have something to do with living in Texas and having to worry about how his economic policies are going to screw their kids over…

They don’t have much of an opinion on Bachmann—but that’s because they have only started hearing about her in the past month or two. Hopefully, the non-crazy side of the world may have a chance to educate voters on why she’s so unqualified…

Comment #65: Scott  on  08/15  at  12:21 PM

@Comment #62: NY Expat on 08/15 at 12:17 PM

If some day we’re all gonna die, why do anything?  Why not just kill yourself?

I don’t see how this question follows from the knowledge of one’s mortality, at all. You don’t kill yourself because you value your own life, while simultaneously acknowledging that it will end.

Comment #66: atheist  on  08/15  at  12:23 PM

The position taken by Janet Rhodes might work out for people who are like Janet Rhodes, financially secure enough to weather the massive amount of cuts in social programs that will come about as a result of Republican victories in 2012.  Many people are living day to day, week to week, paycheck to paycheck, and they seriously need the safety net.  We need to build a progressive movement within the Democratic party like the conservatives did in the Republican party, but it won’t be done over night.  Look at the damage that has already been done as a result of Republican victories in 2010.  Actual human beings are suffering as a result.  The fact that Democrats have folded under pressure time and again, and that President Obama governs more like a sixties moderate Republican than a liberal doesn’t mean that we should vote for right wing bigots.  It means we should work within the party structure to bring more progressives into office. 

I can’t believe that people who are willing to expose the poor and the struggling middle class to more destructive Republican cuts, unworkable trickle down economic theories and religious and racial bigotry have any understanding of what is going on at the economic bottom of our society.  If you consider yourself progressive and the choice is between Obama and any of the likely Republican candidates, there is no valid reason that I can think of for voting for a Republican. 

This strikes me as working best for Republicans anyway.  If enough Democrats are persuaded to stay home and not vote for Obama it will be easier for Republican’s to retain control of Congress.  Democratic candidates have enough problems dealing with Republican voter suppression, out and out voter fraud and gerrymandered voting districts that have been put in place by state legislators to weaken the Democratic vote.  Republicans don’t need our help.

Comment #67: G Porgey  on  08/15  at  12:31 PM

You think you’ve made an argument by holding up one spiteful person on our side and extrapolating that to any critics of our faux-liberal president? And then the creepy nihilism thrown in too? Oh well count me as one of the delusional people who are sick of this conservative shill. Bonus points for me since this makes me immortal, apparently.

However, there’s no way I’m voting for anyone on the GOP side. Wait I’m still immortal right?! I used to look forward to reading this blog, but it gets crushed by Feministing and Feministe anyway.

Comment #68: FYouMudFlaps  on  08/15  at  12:37 PM

It is a very honest question—Do you want to vote for someone or against someone? 

I want to vote for someone, but what I want doesn’t matter in every circumstance. If the situation I’m presented with is such that I have to vote against someone in order to defend my interests, that’s what I am going to do.

“You don’t always get what you want,” and you have to work with the circumstances you’re presented with. Having to vote against someone when you’d rather vote for someone is one of those situations.

Comment #69: Tyro  on  08/15  at  12:37 PM

@ Amanda:

I notice, too, that people who fall into illusion-of-control thinking—-the Nader constiuency on the left, the Tea Party on the right—-tend to have relatively high levels of privilege.

Yes, yes, how DARE Ralph Nader exercise his right to run for president.  How dare I exercise my right to vote for Nader in 2000 because I thought he would do the best job.  Heard it a million times.

Of course I have no illusion of control.  Why do you think I voted for Nader?  One thing I do have control over is my vote, so I used it voice my position.

Please quit making generalizations and diagnoses of Nader voters.  Dispel your illusion of control.  Your Nader harangues about something that happened about eleven years ago aren’t convincing anyone of anything, likely annoy people who voted for Nader in 2000, and serve no purpose except for backslapping those like-minded people who continue to blame Nader for Gore’s loss.

Me?  I blame everyone who voted for Bush, the state government of Florida, the butterfly ballots (remember those?), and the Supreme Court.  I don’t and can’t blame those who voted for someone other than Bush.

She claims to have told a representative from the DNC that she’s so mad at Obama for “caving” that she’ll be voting for the Republican in November, even if that Republican is Michele Bachmann.

She obviously feels Obama has failed to deliver, and is announcing her willingness to vote against him for it to someone who is sort of listening (maybe).  She got to register her disapproval for no real cost to her, and likely no real gain except the satisfaction of voicing her opinion.  Whatever.

Comment #70: Richard Goblin  on  08/15  at  12:39 PM

If Satan can’t do it, no one can!

Comment #71: Tree  on  08/15  at  12:41 PM

Paradox @ 11:03 said it perfectly. I chose sarcasm and whatnot. Although you seem less ridiculous in your comment replies.

Comment #72: FYouMudFlaps  on  08/15  at  12:41 PM

How dare I exercise my right to vote for Nader in 2000 because I thought he would do the best job.

Wait, you really thought that? You really think a lifelong consumer protection activist with zero experience in elected office would have done a better job running the executive branch of the federal government than Al Gore would have?

I mean I get voting for Nader on the basis of ideology, but *competence*?

Comment #73: typist  on  08/15  at  12:45 PM

but I will still trudge about my neighborhood (and others) to get out the vote in 2012 (and beyond).

I don’t know, Mingo.  I did GOTV work back in 2008.  In 2010 and now I am more inclined to use my time and energy for something more likely to accomplish something useful.  I can do more work at Legal Aid, do more to help workers organize, help community organizations incorporate as non-profits and provide some technical legal support, and other things around town.

I just do not see accomplishing anything above the local level when it comes to electoral politics at this point in time.

And I’ll donate to the ACLU and NRDC before I give more money to politicians and their parties.

Comment #74: Richard Goblin  on  08/15  at  12:46 PM

paradox, I wouldn’t let you near a banana slug, let alone a real human being with emotional or psychological issues, hell, you’re too mean to be a Catholic priest.

Comment #75: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  08/15  at  12:49 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYmIKcP7Nbc

Comment #76: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  08/15  at  12:50 PM

I wonder how President Nader would have gotten universal health care and a comprehensive alternative energy plan through Tom Delay’s Congress in 2001. I’m sure he would have done it somehow because he is magical but…sadly we’ll never know.

Comment #77: typist  on  08/15  at  12:51 PM

Yay!  I was first!

“I knew in my heart of hearts that the first comment would be someone suffering from the all-or-nothing mentality saying, “Nuh-uh!”  And so it was a good chance for me to practice letting go of the illusion of control.”

You’re upset because the first comment wasn’t someone falling all over themselves to tell you how brilliant you are?  Take comfort in knowing that you know everything:  what others are thinking, what the first comment would be, how eyes developed, where the Graille is hidden, how bumble bees manage to fly (seriously, that’s just amazing, isn’t it? The bumble bees, I mean)...

Let’s see.  I acknowledged that Amanda’s brilliant insight into Rhodes’ psyche might be right, though her frequent mind-reading posts remind me of the stuff Somerby criticizes, which is why I mentioned it—it’s silly to play mind reader, but much easier than actually addressing other people’s arguments, and it lets you get all condescending and snotty, too, which is so much fun.  Then I made the very simple argument that the government has been bought off, so voting is a waste of time.  Amanda’s response was some adolescent snotting off.  “I knew this would happen because I am drenched in Genius Dust stolen from Freud’s crypt.”  Snotting off is pretty off-putting, hence my unfriendly response.

penn @21 “I think DBK is a good example of how the illusion of control it leads to an all or nothing attitude. We either obsess over what we should’ve have done differently to change the situation, or we completely give up since we can’t control the situation. DBK has clearly taken the latter route.”

Well I’m glad that I’m a good example.  I hate setting a bad example.  And I love having my mind read by strangers who know three short paragraphs about me.  Good going penn.  You should have your own blog.  Are you drenched in Genius Dust too?

I’ve voted in public elections for 35 years and until last year never missed a single election, even the school budget votes in February.  I have been involved in politics since I was fourteen. I remember with fondness the words “Ohio passes”.  (If you know what that refers to, you stayed up too late one summer night almost forty years ago.)  I’ve watched how the politics of this country have changed.  I’ve watched as the government has been bought off.  The media is owned by too few people (thank Reagan for media consolidation) and we get our information about candidates from the media.  That information is manipulated and sanitized.

There was a time when you could vote and, even if your candidate lost, at least you felt that the people were being represented, even if your views were not the most widely held; but the candidate actually cared about your interests if he didn’t agree with your views.  That’s not the case anymore.  Only the views of the very wealthiest people matter now.  That’s why I don’t feel like wasting my time voting.  If the rich people want Obama to win, he’ll win.  If they want Perry it will be Perry and if they want Bachmann it will be Bachmann and that’s just the way it is.  Somehow, Amanda Marcotte thinks that opinion means I have an “illusion of control”.  There’s a poll at msnbc.com right now asking if the wealthy should pay more in taxes.  While this poll is not scientific in any way, the numbers were running around 95% to 5% in favor of the wealthy paying more taxes.  That poll was on the front page of the web site, but is not there now, half an hour later.  I don’t wonder why it isn’t on the front page anymore.  I also don’t expect the wealthy to have their tax rates raised even if 95% of the country wants them raised.

There’s a difference between an “illusion of control” and understanding that the people no longer matter.  The claim that I think it is “all or nothing” is stupid—it is a stupid and insulting thing to say, especially since the people who said it know nothing about me except three short paragraphs.

By the way, the reason I was first to comment is that I just happened to click over to pandagon at the right moment.  Amanda knew somehow that I would be the first one with my comment because she knew exactly when I was going to take a break from work and look at her web site.  She even knew how long it would take me to read her posting and type my comment, beating the others to the punch.  That Genius Dust is great stuff.

Comment #78: DBK  on  08/15  at  12:55 PM

Refusing to get involved and arguing with the epic levels of butthurt that were inevitable from this is going to be my daily practice in letting go of the illusion of control.  People are narcissistic for reasons outside of my reach—-I can’t control that.  I’ve said my piece.

One thing I do think is important to remember is that narcissists who believe they could do a better job than Obama and that they can punish him into obedience are a much smaller percentage of the left than what it seems like on the internet.  Their willingness to scream and yell on the internet makes their numbers seem larger than they are.  I think it’s useful to remember that people who don’t have such massive ego issues tend to avoid getting into the fray.

Comment #79: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/15  at  01:00 PM

paradox @28 “You’ve missed it here, Amanda, and your arrogance, defensiveness and meanness demeans your soul, your history and your blog.”

Bingo.  Except that it is something she does frequently.  I have been less interested in this blog because of it.  I can go talk to my neighbor’s teenager if all I want is adolescent snotting off.

Comment #80: DBK  on  08/15  at  01:02 PM

What both sides of this whole dreary, repeated-ad-nauseum-since-2008 discussion really illustrate for me is the way that liberals continue to focus far too exclusively on Presidential politics, where we really can do little more than cheer or boo from the cheap seats.  Conservatives have never made this mistake, which is why they were able to take over the Republican Party from the ground up.

Comment #81: Steve LaBonne  on  08/15  at  01:09 PM

DBK, I hesitate to seem all cult of personalityish here, but I like Marcotte’s work, it’s why I read it. I don’t think she knows everything but what I do know is that she’s funnier than you, so if you wish to debate her I think it would be a very good idea for you to forgo humor and sarcasm as tactics. I’m trying to be helpful.

Comment #82: typist  on  08/15  at  01:09 PM

This is an interesting post, and maybe indicts some of my own thinking about the desirability of litigation over political activism and lobbying in achieving social change.

I don’t see why, honestly.  I take this attitude to me we should be more practical, and put evidence in front of ideals.  Litigation is a fine way to achieve your goals.  I say throw as much shit up as possible and see what sticks.  Once you accept that there’s no one right way to do something, you can be free to try different strategies. 

The argument for refusing to litigate is based, I think, in the illusion of control.  It’s this belief that there’s a way to get a victory for your side without creating a backlash.  For instance, you see liberals honestly argue that if abortion had been legalized through legislation instead of a court decision, the right would have accepted it more easily.  Health care reform, however, is demonstrating how untrue that is.  They fundamentally refuse to accept the legitimacy of anyone who disagrees with them, and there is no magic trick to get around that.  You just have to fight to win and accept that there are consequences to winning, which is that the opposition is going to shit a brick and do everything they can to destroy your victory.

Comment #83: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/15  at  01:11 PM

Yes, Amanda, that’s the line to take.  You got all snotty and defensive and the people you snotted at responded in kind, so label it with some clever name, like “butthurt”, so the kewl kidz will recognize what a hip Internet sharpie you are.  And you’re in the clear!  No need to examine what you wrote at all.  Just stay snotty and defensive.

Comment #84: DBK  on  08/15  at  01:13 PM

It’s cool, typist.  I’m not going to “debate” someone who is disinterested in listening.  When I was a child and got the “you should be better than this” lecture from someone trying to exert shame and control over me, I saw through it.  Now that it’s being deployed against a full-grown adult, probably in no small part because we still infantilize women in this culture, I’m even less interested in it.

Comment #85: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/15  at  01:13 PM

DBK, you cannot provoke me into being bullied by you. I’m sorry.  I’m trying to be the change I want to see in the world, and allowing you to dangle the illusion that I could “debate” you isn’t going to happen.  You’ve made your motivations clear.  What purpose is there in repeating mysel endlessly, except to give you the emotional satisfaction of hurting the feelings of someone who dared to make you feel bad about your ego-tripping?

Comment #86: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/15  at  01:15 PM

I just want to point out that the illusion of control ironically diminishes your power in the world.  Time spent chasing phantoms is time not spent doing the hard work of trying to exert influence.  I realize that working with the ultimate understanding that you can easily fail no matter what you do can be demoralizing.

This is a very important insight not just for dealing with political reality, but for dealing with personal and professional reality. For example, there is a vocal contingent of highly disgruntled NIH grant applicants who—when they have trouble getting their grants funded in this admittedly very difficult fiscal climate—rant and rave about how the peer review system that is the basis for allocating limited available funds is “corrupt” and “broken” and demand “immediate reform”. As you say, this time spent chasing phantoms does nothing but distract attention and divert effort from doing the hard work of trying to understand how things really work and doing your best to achieve your goals int he context of that well-formed understanding of reality.

Comment #87: PhysioProf  on  08/15  at  01:17 PM

atheist @ 55 - you made that ungrammatical as well as proving you read it incorrectly.  If, then; not if but.  And what you added was implied already. 
Voting is not easy for everyone.  Saying it is easy just shows you don’t have a clue.  For those with significant barriers who choose not to vote for someone who is so not going to repressent them?  I can’t fault them.
I will most likely (99%) vote for Obama.  I am not enthusiastic, but as usual, will vote for the least bad.  That’s why I voted for him last time.  If there weren’t local races as well on the same ballot, I imagine it would be harder to get people out for 2012, if only because enthusiasm is so low.

Comment #88: helen w. h.  on  08/15  at  01:20 PM

I feel caught in the middle with respect to the Obama Wars that still flare up in Blogovia. In the end, I tend to agree with Amanda in that it’s important to accept that in politics, as in most things, only a certain number of things are within the control of any one person (or even a movement of people) and that you work to change what you can while you can in the short term and try to set the stage for further change in the long term. In light of that, I wouldn’t even consider voting for a Republican. What differences I have with the president, he’s simply a better choice in my view than anything the Republicans would even put up against him. And this administration has done far more than the previous one; maybe that’s setting the bar low, but there are real accomplishments there.

That said, I understand some of the frustrations people have with this administration. Sure, compromise is a sine qua non when it comes to getting things done, but you also want to help fertilize the soil, if you will, for future compromises that break more in your direction. So it’s a little troubling to me to see this administration adopt the mantra of deficit-cutting right at a time when this country really doesn’t need it; which means that you get instances like this one reported by Marcy Wheeler in which the president appears to downplay the administration’s own role in job creation. Is it enough to make me not want to vote to re-elect the president? No. But I’d like to see a stronger case for robust government.

I think the arguments over the adminstration reflect a larger discussion that we don’t seem to be having: the need to rebuild a liberal/progressive/left/whatever you’d like to call it movement and how to go about doing that. Get a better movement, and you’ll get better representatives in government.

Comment #89: Linnaeus  on  08/15  at  01:22 PM

Typist, I get your point, but I’m not debating her.  She couldn’t wait to label me, snot off like an adolescent, and show everyone her skills at reading minds and making demeaning remarks.  I’m giving her what she gave me and others.  Now she’s trying to paint it as a gender thing.  “Infantilize women”.  So, apparently, any criticism of her is going to be turned into a gender thing now.  If she writes a lot of adolescent snotting off, it’s sexist to criticize it as such.

Amanda, I apologize.  That was very mature, wise, and highly developed adolescent snotting off on your part.  Not infantile at all.  (Adolescents aren’t infants, but I’m sure you know that.)

Comment #90: DBK  on  08/15  at  01:24 PM

For example, there is a vocal contingent of highly disgruntled NIH grant applicants who—when they have trouble getting their grants funded in this admittedly very difficult fiscal climate—rant and rave about how the peer review system that is the basis for allocating limited available funds is “corrupt” and “broken” and demand “immediate reform”.

They’re not wrong, but there’s a value system in place that the applicants have internalized where they believe the only way to “do science” is to slam their heads against the wall of applying for limited amounts of NIH funding only granted to 10% of applicants. I think similarly, many people have internalized the idea that if the political situatio doesn’t go the way they like, they need to burn it down (see the right wingers when modest health care reform passed).

There are certain circumstances in which the only way to win is not to play. Interested in getting high speed rail? I think the most efficient way to get that is to move to Europe. On the other hand, I think primarying your local Congressmen and state reps is a better tangible goal.  But not voting or voting republican just because you think that Obama happened to be the wrong kind of Democrat for the current circumstances? Sounds like a bad idea when you find out who the alternatives are.

Comment #91: Tyro  on  08/15  at  01:26 PM

DBK @ 78 - ERA?

Comment #92: helen w. h.  on  08/15  at  01:31 PM

I can’t stand Obama, and no amount of berating and insults is going to make me vote for him - though I can’t even begin to understand the level of dipshittery that would lead one to think voting for a republican is somehow going to be better. I agree with Richard Goblin - I’ll vote on a local level, definitely. 

Does that make me a puma?  WTF is a puma?  Is it an acronym for being less than a zealot? 

Is this post just hostility to the earn my vote theory, or am I missing some deep significance imbedded this?

Comment #93: Rare Vos  on  08/15  at  01:32 PM

True believers in politics are little different from survivalists hoping to gain an upper hand from the failure of civilization or end-times evangelicals hoping for the suffering of the Tribulations. It’s all about control issues, and you don’t need a mental health degree to see it. The irony is that there is damn little difference between the teach-Obama-a-lesson left and the right wingers who recently were cheering on defaulting the national debt.

Comment #94: weirdnoise  on  08/15  at  01:35 PM

“DBK, you cannot provoke me into being bullied by you. I’m sorry.  I’m trying to be the change I want to see in the world, and allowing you to dangle the illusion that I could “debate” you isn’t going to happen.  You’ve made your motivations clear.  What purpose is there in repeating mysel endlessly, except to give you the emotional satisfaction of hurting the feelings of someone who dared to make you feel bad about your ego-tripping?”

The problem is that nothing you have written about me makes any sense and is complete horseshit.  And your whole post is horseshit.  You offer a horseshit armchair shrink version of why people generally have decided not to vote for Obama as if there is no legitimate argument to not vote for him.  He doesn’t represent me.  He represents a narrow slice of wealthy people.  Apparently, according to you, you should vote for someone who doesn’t represent you.  That makes no sense.  In fact, that’s just stupid.  Your post is horseshit and it’s whole point was to demean people who don’t vote the way you want them to by labeling them with this new psychological condition you made up. “Illusion fo control.”

Your training in psychology is what exactly?  I’m just curious, since a lot of your postings are you reading other people’s minds.  In @86 you wrote my “motivations” are “clear”.  More mind reading. You write that I am trying to “bully” you.  (More mind reading.) This blog is YOUR pulpit, you started off with the snotty remarks, you lead the pack in snotty remarks, and now you’re trying to play the victim and I’m supposed to be bully?  Because I am giving you back what you give first?

Yeah, right.

Comment #95: DBK  on  08/15  at  01:37 PM

Wapsie wrote:

But there’s no other responsible action but to hold your nose and vote for the Democrat.

If someone is that displeased with both President Obama and whomever the Republicans nominate, there’s nothing wrote at all with voting for a third party candidate, or even writing in someone.  Yeah, that’s pretty much consenting to the decisions that everyone else takes, since no third party candidate will be elected President, but if that’s what someone feels he must do, it’s certainly his right.  (Some people might think that this is only an option when their state is not really in play.)

As for the very first comment, my only response is that maybe things won’t go the way you like, but if you don’t vote, don’t complain about the results.

Comment #96: Dana  on  08/15  at  01:38 PM

Rare Vos - pumas are those mostly mythical beings who were so turned off by Obama (and some of his followers were insanely odious at local levels) beating Hillary Clinton that they not only voted but tried to turn others to McCain, and are still anti-Obama for that reason alone.

Comment #97: helen w. h.  on  08/15  at  01:40 PM

weirdnoise - help me out here, cuz I think I must be missing something.

Is there a difference between having one’s own reasons for not voting for Obama and mental issues you (and Amanda) subscribe to these supposed “control issues”?  Or is simply not being willing to vote for Obama automatically make one a Puma(whatever that is) and/or a mentally ill control freak?

Have we really become the “you’re either with us or against us” party? Or are we talking about a specific kind of anti-Obama-lefty?

I’m confused.

Comment #98: Rare Vos  on  08/15  at  01:42 PM

Helen - thx. I had a feeling it was a conspiracy theory thing. This smacks to me as a “vote as you’re commanded to vote!” argument. 

Uh, no.

Comment #99: Rare Vos  on  08/15  at  01:46 PM

@Comment #93: Rare Vos on 08/15 at 01:32 PM

Does that make me a puma?  WTF is a puma?  Is it an acronym for being less than a zealot?

PUMA’s were this way-overblown “movement” around 2008 and 2009, of people who were so angered that Hillary Clinton didn’t get the Democratic nomination that they were going to vote Republican, or maybe just snipe at Obama. Supposedly their name originally stood for “Party Unit My Ass”.

Comment #100: atheist  on  08/15  at  01:49 PM

okay - but did they have some massive groundswell of support that would make it reasonable to ascribe all dissent towards Obama as being some super sekrit conspiracy to destroy the country?  Seems more than a little insane to be invoking that instead of addressing people’s actual concerns with regard to obama.

Comment #101: Rare Vos  on  08/15  at  01:53 PM

@Comment #88: helen w. h.  on 08/15 at 12:20 PM

atheist @ 55 - you made that ungrammatical as well as proving you read it incorrectly.  If, then; not if but.  And what you added was implied already.

Re-reading Jake Squid’s comment, I think I did in fact misunderstand his point. Sorry about that.

I’m not sure where I said voting was easy, though.

Comment #102: atheist  on  08/15  at  01:53 PM

There are two arguments being conflated here:

1) That the “taking your ball and going home” routine is pointless and stupid.

2) That Obama has been pretty awesome and complaints about his Presidency are without merit.

I don’t think Amanda (nor any sane person) would argue for statement two. The problem here is that anyone who makes statement one is automatically assumed to be making statement two. This makes any discussion on the matter of purity frustrating.

For all the “purists” defending Rhodes: a threat to vote Republican (or even a threat to not vote) is a threat of no consequence. A person with influence should instead threaten to organize large numbers of people against official Democratic organizations. Valid threats would include boycotting advocacy organizations that participate in the “veal pen,” supporting primary challenges, organizing mass protests, filing lawsuits, etc.

Comment #103: Kurt Horner  on  08/15  at  01:58 PM

helen @92.

No, but a good try.  It was a vote at the 1972 Democratic Convention.  I don’t remember the exact subject of the vote.  I think it was a procedural vote of some kind, but I do remember that I didn’t get to bed until the wee early morning hours (thank goodness I didn’t have school the next day or I wouldn’t have been allowed to stay up that late) because I was fascinated by the whole thing.  Ohio passed…was it 23 times?  That number sticks in my head.  I believe that this may have been the vote that was written about in great detail in Hunter Thompson’s Fear and Loathing:  On the Campaign Trail 1972.  I’ll have to get a copy and read it again to make sure.  I just remember a hot summer night (we didn’t have air-conditioning), the TV turned down low so I wouldn’t wake my folks, and listening in fascination to the convention.  I watched every televised minute of that convention.

I’ve been a politics junkie for longer than Amanda has been alive.  I marched in protests, worked for congressmen, voted in elections, argued with other politics junkies into the early morning hours, stuffed envelopes, and typed honest to goodness letters on a Smith-Corona typewriter and sent them with old-fashioned stamps through the US mail in favor of that same ERA before Amanda was born.  But see, I didn’t agree with her horseshit posting, so nothing mattered but snotting off at me.  When I responded to her adolescent snot by calling it what it was, I became a sexist who infantilized women.  I’m glad she knows me so well.  Must be the Genius Dust.

Comment #104: DBK  on  08/15  at  01:59 PM

No Rare Vos.  You have to vote for Obama even if he doesn’t represent you.  Voting isn’t about voting for someone who represents you.  It’s about doing what Amanda says.  If not, you have a mental condition.

And that’s why the posting is utter horseshit.

Comment #105: DBK  on  08/15  at  02:01 PM

I think you make an interesting point in general about the illusion of control.  It’s certainly given myself something to think about.  However, I think you are wrong that liberal opposition to Obama has that behind it.  Republicans are not the main enemy, the very rich are.  Obama is going to get reelected because the very rich want him to be reelected, he’s been good to them.  Efforts to revoke some of the power of the very rich died with the death of campaign finance reform and were buried with Citizen’s United. 

I’m not going to sit out this election or vote for any of the republican candidates out of some misplaced spite, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to vote for Obama just because he has a D next to his name.

Comment #106: RonO  on  08/15  at  02:02 PM

DBK: When you stuffed those envelopes, did you mail them all to the same person?

Comment #107: norbizness  on  08/15  at  02:06 PM

Yes.  In retrospect, it might have been better if I had mailed them to different people.  Hindsight, no?

Comment #108: DBK  on  08/15  at  02:12 PM

But who, here, is defending Rhodes?  I’m certainly not.  It will be a cold day in non-existent hell before I vote republican, unless they magically lose Teh Cray-zee.

But, I’m still not voting for Obama.  I have my reasons, none of which have anything to do with Hillary Clinton. 

Is this actually an insistence that dems simply vote as they’re told to vote, or (again) am I missing some deep siginificance in this post?

Comment #109: Rare Vos  on  08/15  at  02:14 PM

I was just thinking this morning, “I’ve dodged death enough times to know that I cannot do so eternally.” For some strange reason, I don’t feel anymore conservative than I did when I got up.

Actually, there is psychological research that suggests that reminding people of their own mortality leads to more conservative actions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terror_management_theory

I don’t know if it’s the current consensus in psychology, but it is interesting.

Comment #110: KristinMH  on  08/15  at  02:16 PM

I don’t know what kind of useful discourse is promoted by un-supported assertions that one is right and that anyone who disagrees is not just wrong but is at least marginally deranged.

It is, of course, a perfectly reasonable argument that voting for and / or supporting a candidate you disagree with is the best course when you disagree with their opponent even more.

But it is also a perfectly reasonable argument that one will not vote for or support a candidate who, in one’s estimation, does not support enough of your core political beliefs. This is not the same argument as saying I will not vote for X because X is not perfect - that would indeed be childish and self defeating. To argue against those who require perfection to support a candidate is manifestly to argue against a straw person.

It really is possible to refuse to vote for a candidate that you believe trades away or never supported what you support. To argue that this is a wrong headed political strategy is fine and reasonable. To assert that those who choose that strategy are not just wrong but deranged is at best smug.

Comment #111: cronopio  on  08/15  at  02:16 PM

Put away this adolescent conceit. The adult situation were in, presidential-election-wise, is a choice between sane and insane. Yes, it sucks. It sucked the last three elections, too. But there’s no other responsible action but to hold your nose and vote for the Democrat

Have you noticed that the longer people keep voting for the lesser of two evils, the further evil both choices drift?  Do you think this is a coincidence?

Mind you, I’m not in your situation.  In a parliamentary system, I always have teh option of voting for the “extreme”, and having that vote potentially meaningful.

Comment #112: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/15  at  02:21 PM

Actually, there is psychological research that suggests that reminding people of their own mortality leads to more conservative actions

Otherwise known as the 9/11 CHANGED EVERYTHING Effect.

Comment #113: Triplanetary  on  08/15  at  02:24 PM

I’d still like someone to explain to me what President Nader’s awesome legislative strategy with the Tom DeLay Congress would have been.

Comment #114: typist  on  08/15  at  02:26 PM

Have you noticed that the longer people keep voting for the lesser of two evils, the further evil both choices drift?  Do you think this is a coincidence?

Yes, I agree with this. Both parties in the US have been drifting rightward, because the Democrats just don’t generate the same enthusiasm from liberals that the GOP does from conservatives.

As others have already said in this thread, we liberals need to do some serious grassroots work building a progressive base on the local and state levels, and until that influence reaches the national level, we just need to keep Republicans from pushing the Overton window so far to the right that it goes off the cliff and American discourse dissolves into complete inanity (we’re on the edge of that cliff right now, by the way).

So we have two goals that, for the moment, aren’t really the same:
1) Push progressive policies
2) Keep Democrats in office as much as possible at the federal level

If we then add goal 3 - build a progressive base within the Democratic party - goals 1 and 2 will dovetail and we’ll finally start getting real work done in this country. But that will take time.

The other big challenge is that conservative “grassroots” efforts get a lot of money and support from the ruling class, for obvious reasons. How do liberals counteract this? I have no idea, but WE NEED A PLAN. Right now we don’t appear to have one.

Comment #115: Triplanetary  on  08/15  at  02:31 PM

“Have you noticed that the longer people keep voting for the lesser of two evils, the further evil both choices drift?  Do you think this is a coincidence?”

I agree, and this is basically why I refuse to merely hold my nose and vote.  this is not an argument of privilege - I’ve got a lot to lose if a repub wins.  That said, as my roommate frequently says:  what’s the difference between having a repub president and having one that does little else but fellate repubs?

I’m not saying he’s been nothing but terrible.  That’s obviously not true.  But that question remains, in my mind.

Comment #116: Rare Vos  on  08/15  at  02:35 PM

you ought to be familiar with this dude Freud, who (paraphrasing) said that one thing he knew was that if a patient said it wasn’t all about his mother, it was definitely about his mother.

Wait, really?  Amanda says that not voting for Obama is about an illusion of control, and if anybody says “no, not really,”...that’s evidence that it really is about an illusion of control?  You do know that that’s one of the major problems with Freud, right, his refusal to contemplate the possibility that his closed system might not account for everything in the human psyche, and that psychology has come on a bit since his work?  Nowadays, when I say, “No, that doesn’t ring true at all,” my therapist nods and accepts that hey, she might be wrong about that thing.

I don’t have an illusion of control, which is why I don’t much see the point in voting, period.  At least, not on the national level.

Comment #117: EG01  on  08/15  at  02:36 PM

Have you noticed Democrats moving to the left when they lose elections? Me neither.

Comment #118: typist  on  08/15  at  02:37 PM

@ Rare Vos

though I can’t even begin to understand the level of dipshittery that would lead one to think voting for a republican is somehow going to be better. I agree with Richard Goblin - I’ll vote on a local level, definitely.

I also encourage you to work locally to help shape your community.  It’s a great way to be a real part of your community.

Me, I’ll vote Democratic, Green, Socialist, or Working Families in the presidential election, but won’t pretend it will make any real difference either way.  Republican?  I couldn’t vote for them without vomiting.

@ Typist:

Wait, you really thought that? You really think a lifelong consumer protection activist with zero experience in elected office would have done a better job running the executive branch of the federal government than Al Gore would have?

Yes.

Comment #119: Richard Goblin  on  08/15  at  02:40 PM

Have you noticed Democrats moving to the left when they lose elections? Me neither.

Or when they win elections, or at any other time in the past 20 years.  The Democrats as a whole chase the center.  The Republicans move farther right, taking the center with them and the Democrats as a whole follow.

Thinking you can control individual Democrats or Democrats as a whole with your vote IS the illusion of control.

Comment #120: Richard Goblin  on  08/15  at  02:44 PM

Typist - Who give a crap about nader. I’d still like to know why, instead of real, solid reasons to vote for obama, we get insults and absurd conspiracy theories direct at those saying no. 

Or is your argument that, if one doesn’t vote as they’re commanded to, the politican has no recourse but to move further to the right. 

Exactly how is that argument supposed to entice me to vote for Obama, again?  Is this a new form of vote extortion?  Vote dem or they’ll defect!

Comment #121: Rare Vos  on  08/15  at  02:44 PM

Nader-Hating = Hipster-Bashing = Hippie-Punching, now & forever.

“I mean I get voting for Nader on the basis of ideology, but *competence*?...I’m sure he would have done it somehow because he is magical but…sadly we’ll never know.”

Well if that’s the case, then you & the rest of the Hippie-Punching Nader-Haters can send the how-terrible-an-elected-official-Nader-would-have-been bolier-plate to the glue factory as well, because, sadly - like y’all said - we’ll never know.

If the Hippie-Punching Nader-Haters quit polishing the turds the DLCentrists give them to hit progressives over the head with & just owned up to the fact that Al Gore fucked up & made a pig’s breakfast out of what should’ve been a cakewalk…aaa fuck it.  Never gonna happen.  *lets go of that illusion*  The advantage that The Loyal Army of DLCentrist Turd-Polishers have over Those Who Want & Need To See Something Better Than Business-As-Usual is that the former never have to wait very long before the next polish-job lands in their (& everyone else’s) drink.  Why take that pleasure away from them?

Nader-Hating = Hipster-Bashing = Hippie-Punching, & don’t anyone ever forget it.

Comment #122: Smartpatrol  on  08/15  at  02:44 PM

It’s not extortion, do what the fuck you want, I’m going to go get an MBA and stop caring about people while you guys let the world burn but keep your sense of self righteousness, that’s clearly the only thing to do.

Comment #123: typist  on  08/15  at  02:47 PM

So . . . that’s your response to a request for a solid reason to vote for obama?  Psychotic conspiracy theories and whining?  This unhinged nonsense is supposed to convince me I’m wrong? 

You say its not extortion and then accuse of me letting the world burn if I don’t do what you want me to do, regardless of your complete inability to state a clear reason why I should?

The teabaggers are us, apparently.

Comment #124: Rare Vos  on  08/15  at  02:53 PM

I am going to vote for Obama in 2012, unless something really, really fundamental happens between now and then (say, he starts another war).

That said, I will NEVER join in the bashing of people who cast protest votes or refuse to vote for candidates who disappoint them.

The reality is, even though it may make more sense to vote the party line (I’ll cite to libertarian / conservative professor Eugene Volokh, who wrote a great post that makes perfect sense as to the reasons why, even though he comes at this from the opposite side of the spectrum: http://volokh.com/posts/1225324497.shtml ), the other reality is that every candidate has to earn our vote and every one of us has dealbreakers. Not to put too a fine a point on it, but I could imagine some actions on abortion rights that Obama could take that might cause Amanda to decide to vote against him.

Al Gore, the example everyone cites, did very little in 2000 to appeal to the left wing. He took left-wingers for granted, and continued to do so even after Nader entered the race. That isn’t the Nader voters’ fault—that’s Al Gore’s fault. And it’s especially bad given that it appears he intended to govern from the left on the basis of his speeches during the 2000-04 period.

That doesn’t make Nader voters right or wrong, it just means that in the first instance, every candidate has to decide what constituencies he or she wishes to pitch his or her method to. If Obama loses votes on the left, it will be because he decided to pitch his message to other voters. If this doesn’t cost him the election, that will turn out to be a good political calculation. If it does, it will turn out to be a bad one but one with some long-term consequences.

I would argue, actually, that one of the reasons we eventually got Barack Obama and not Hillary Clinton was because of a dynamic that started in 2000 and continued in 2004. Essentially, the Democratic Party learned through losing elections that it could not ignore that many of its most devoted adherents were anti-war and rejected US imperialism. Now, is it good that we got eight years of George W. Bush as a result? Not really. But on the other hand, is it good that a precedent was set that Democrats who decide to endorse US military imperialism might lose their left? You can certainly argue that.

Bottom line, this question is really complicated.

Comment #125: Dilan Esper  on  08/15  at  02:54 PM

Voting for a Republican because you despise Obama isn’t a problem of control, it’s one of short sighted pettiness. Not voting for Obama because his policy sucks ass and he’s a worthless human being that apparently only pretends to feel empathy is not.

I’ll happily put myself in the latter group. I won’t vote for a politician that supports more free trade, doesn’t particularly care about unemployment, only cared about GLBT issues when it became obvious teh gayz were going to abandon him in droves, and supports “entitlement reform”. I won’t vote for a Republican no matter what they call themselves. My state will go with the Republican for president either way, so it doesn’t really matter what I do. I have no illusion of control whatsoever.

Seriously, we’re going to accuse the people that don’t like Obama of privilege? That’s absolutely priceless. The people demanding votes for Obama are often far more privileged than the ones complaining about him. For example, it doesn’t matter that he’s bound and determined to give us MOAR free trade agreements if you aren’t unemployed, have a job that can’t be outsourced and aren’t working a job that requires manual labor so Social Security isn’t necessary because you can keep working.

@DBK: Don’t take it personally. It’s an internet-wide thing. It doesn’t matter what you may or may not have done in politics before, your only value is your ability to cast a vote for Him that we may continue to bask in His glorious presence. If you hang out at other liberal/Democratic message boards, you’ve seen the trend. Everything must be about Him. Every. Last. Thing. We’re allowed to point out why the policy of Republicans sucks, but not His policy. The former can help Him, the latter makes it sound like He is less than perfect, a slander which cannot be borne. Since we’re playing armchair psychologist now, it’s called a personality cult. Stop discussing policy! Here’s a picture of Him at the beach! You’re not impressed? Teabagger!

Comment #126: JThompson  on  08/15  at  02:55 PM

“Westminster Council are debating forced relocation of people who live in Council flats (the poor) and then selling the space to “desirables” (the rich).” (#52)

Ahh.  Urban Renewal, or as we used to call it when it happened to our neighborhoods, “urban removal”.  It’s a dead idea over here, because so many of the property owners objected (to be fair, there are other reasons).  But in England, where much city housing is owned by the city, it’s probably still possible, if the occupants don’t riot, and no doubt they think they can cure that problem.

Sorry, OT.

Comment #127: Older  on  08/15  at  02:57 PM

Will butthurt drive this thread past 300 comments before midnight?  I’m guessing yes.

Comment #128: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/15  at  03:04 PM

Can you answer the question, Amanda? I’m honestly asking.  I don’t see what apparently you and typist, et al, see.  Can we cut the evasion and prove me wrong?  I’m listening, willing to be shown to be wrong.

Comment #129: Rare Vos  on  08/15  at  03:07 PM

Rehashing the 2000 election is like the like the shingles of the progressive blogosphere; the infection lurks close to the nerves, and breaks out painfully in times of stress.

I would like to invite the Gore fans to give it up: it’s history, and your guy lost. And the Nader fans should also remember: your guy lost too.

Comment #130: atheist  on  08/15  at  03:09 PM

As I’ve said before (repeatedly, I admit) I’ve voted Democratic for 40 years, never tempted by Nader or Green Party distractions, because the Republicans have always been scary.

Although as a resident of California—which will always go Democratic anyway in a Presidential election—I’ve been told my vote doesn’t “count.”

Even though as resident of a populous state my vote doesn’t “count” as much as that of those inbred, hillbilly white supremacist underpopulated square states.

Even though with the way budget votes are set up in my state, the minority of Republicans have taken the Democratic majority legislature hostage for years on end.

But frankly, I’m so well-informed now on Democratic Party politics, policies, and politicians that I can only hope I’ll be able to force myself out of staying in bed curled up like a fetus next election day, in time to get to the polls.

However, the Republicans are scarier now than they’ve been for 40 years, so it’s likely I’ll uncurl from fetus status.

But if even I am tempted to stay in bed next election day, that bodes ill for other Democrats who have been betrayed over and over and over and over again by the Obama administration. Have been shown that they’re votes don’t count, by an administration and Congress that is set on wrecking the economy (further) and betraying both every campaign promise and commonsense and collaborting with the enemy Republicans on some of the worst policies possible.

Comment #131: judybrowni  on  08/15  at  03:12 PM

@ 128

Will butthurt drive this thread past 300 comments before midnight?  I’m guessing yes.

Comment #128: Amanda Marcotte on 08/15 at 03:04 PM

Sorry, I’m kind of new at this. Can you explain what this means?

Comment #132: cronopio  on  08/15  at  03:15 PM

Typist,:  inre:  Nader is a “a lifelong consumer protection activist with zero experience in elected office”. Below I have cribbed from wikipedia.

Nader is a graduate of Princeton University and Harvard Law.  He was a professor of History and Government at the University of Hartford.  He worked for Assistant Secretary of Labor, Daniel Patrick Moynihan.  Nader’s Raiders, working for him, investigated government corruption.  He co-founded Public Citizen, which investigates a huge number of governmental and private matters.  He helped found the Critical Mass Energy Project, which is an anti-nuclear power organization.  In fact, if you go to the wikipedia page, he took part in founding a massive number of organizations and ran a lot of organization.

Sounds like the guy has a lot of experience in government to me. Also a lot of experience in executive decision-making and managing large groups of people.  Those sound like good presidential skills to me.

Yes, he is a lifelong consumer protection activist and has never held elected office.  If you leave it at that, though, and don’t acknowledge the massive experience he has in government, dealing with elected officials, and accomplishing things, you are being extremely unjust.

Comment #133: DBK  on  08/15  at  03:16 PM

Is this actually an insistence that dems simply vote as they’re told to vote, or (again) am I missing some deep siginificance in this post?

Yes, you’re missing the fact that personal voting preference isn’t that big a deal. Voting for the establishment Democrat, voting for someone else, not voting . . . none of these things matter because any election close enough to be swayed by your one tiny insignificant vote will be decided in a courtroom anyway. Acting like your vote contains some awesome power that important people will “get a message” from is simply a departure from reality.

We’re talking here about the public statements of left-wing activists who have influence over large numbers of people. Yet, Janet Rhodes uses that influence to tell us all how she made a threat to the powers-that-be of NO FUCKING CONSEQUENCE whatsoever. She says “your vote is weapon”—but that’s only if you consider a spork with two busted tines a “weapon.”

The only thing related to elections that can make a difference are primary challenges, and only if major left-wing voices push this option. But causing shitty Democrats to lose general elections (to the extent you can even do that, which is debatable) will only encourage Democrats to be even more conservative the next time around. The Tea Party played this game correctly. You must attack your moderates in the primaries and back the whole team in the general.

But to be perfectly honest, elections aren’t where the real change occurs. Consider that the signature civil rights legislation came during LBJs tenure—who was pretty much the standard setter for establishment douchebag Dem. A popular movement comes first; the politicians then follow the people. Which is why a blog like this one that brings to light and challenges deep flaws in our culture is more consequential than any article about threatening to vote a certain way will ever be.

Comment #134: Kurt Horner  on  08/15  at  03:18 PM

atheist @ 102 - that should hve been broken into two comments for clarity.  That portion was directed at someone else who were going on about how voting was the least you can do, which aint necessarily so.  For many people, calling or stuffing envelopes would be easier than getting to a specific place at a specific time, possibly within a crush of people, to vote.  That requires mobility, available time, and stable mental and physical health.  For several years I voted absentee because my work schedule was so erratic, especially for travel; that poses it’s own challenges.

Comment #135: helen w. h.  on  08/15  at  03:19 PM

Of course, I’m not going to pretend they’re anything but rationalizations, but I do think it’s generally good for me to inure myself a little more through the hoops people are going to jump through, lest my frustration at the stupidity overcomes me as we careen towards President Rick Perry on the backs of leftists who hate sullying themselves with victories that are less than complete.

Part of the process of letting go of the illusion of control for me is the acknowledgement that no matter how completely awful I think any/all of the GOP presidential candidates are, there is still the possibility that one of them will be elected president on November 6, 2011. And not just a long shot possibility, but an increasingly likely one. Anybody who believes that there’s simply no way that Perry/Romney/Bachmann can beat Obama next year needs to pull their head out of their ass. I’m going to vote next year for the incumbent president who I both see as being a bit disappointing and at the same time, the only available candidate who might not run this country into the ground at light speed, something I cannot say for any of his potential opponents. To the extent that I am able and feel up to it, I’ll do what I can to persuade those around me that as disappointing as Obama might be in many respects, he is still objectively a better choice than his GOP opponent.

And then, whatever happens, I’m gonna let go of it. I still think President Obama has a decent shot of getting re-elected next year, though I also realize that there’s a growing possibility that he’ll be voted out if enough low info voters take out their frustration on our painfully stagnant economy on the incumbent POTUS. But that’s something that I have virtually no control over, and should we find ourselves inaugurating Rick Perry to the presidency on January 20, 2013, that’s something that I’ll have to deal with then, not now. Contrary to the bloviating assholes on Fox and that nails-on-chalkboard “A One Term President” mantra of Michele Bachmann, no votes have been cast yet for the 2012 presidential election, and we really have no idea at this point who’s going to win that contest next year. Sometimes I do feel like throwing in the towel and conceding defeat right now, but all that’s behind that is my fear of failure - the fear that I’ll work my ass off to help President Obama get re-elected and that he’ll still lose anyway. That may happen, and if it does, it will be quite disappointing. At the same time, choosing to quit without a fight is nothing more than choosing to fail without really trying. It’s tempting because I hate the feeling of working my ass of for naught, but the only way that my work will be pointless is if I place rigid demands on what the outcome must be for that work. If I place the absolute expectation of victory on my willingness to work for a political campaign, I’ll never work for a political campaign again, because there are no guarantees.

The most famous baseball player of all time failed to get a hit twice as often as he succeeded in getting a hit. Any baseball player who gets a hit more than 3 out of 10 times in their career is a phenomenal baseball player. And the main reason ballplayers of that caliber are able to have long and illustrious careers is because they stay more focused on the 1/3 of their At Bats in which they succeed rather than the 2/3 of their At Bats in which they fail.

Intentionally voting against Obama next year out of spite is probably going to hurt you a lot more than it hurts Obama. While nobody wants the legacy of being a one-term president, the fact is that even getting to the presidency is a pretty monumental accomplishment, considering only 43 people in our nation’s entire history have held that position. If Obama loses next year, he’ll probably just go write his memoir, get paid an ass load of money for speaking appearances, and most likely take up some personal cause as most of his predecessors have done. He’ll be fine, and he’ll never really personally suffer from the economic pain that the GOP can’t wait to foist upon the rest of the country that isn’t in the top 2% of income earners, because Barack Obama will be (and already is) one of the 0.1% of the wealthiest people in America. $5 Million dollars may not be as much as $5 Billion, but anybody who has either amount has no need to ever experience true economic insecurity ever again.

So if you want to get cute and intentionally vote against Obama next year out of spite, go ahead. Just realize that you will probably be doing a lot more harm to yourself than you will be to Barack Obama or any of the extremely affluent power brokers in the Democratic Party.

Cutting one’s nose off to spite their face, indeed.

Comment #136: DTGslu2K  on  08/15  at  03:19 PM

atheist wrote:

PUMA’s were this way-overblown “movement” around 2008 and 2009, of people who were so angered that Hillary Clinton didn’t get the Democratic nomination that they were going to vote Republican, or maybe just snipe at Obama. Supposedly their name originally stood for “Party Unit My Ass”.

Have you seen the Hillary is 44 website?  They’re still pissed off about it!  smile

 

Comment #137: Dana  on  08/15  at  03:20 PM

And apparently, judy, without any explanation whatsoever, that equals “butthurt”.  I’m genuinely surprised at how shallow this pro-obama argument evidently is.  I backed down from my “no way, never” position at the start, rather quickly, since I can vaguely see the point they’re trying to make. 

But, really, the lesser of two evils is all they’ve got?  That can’t be the reason they’re so quickly dismissing everyone else as “butthurt”, can it?

Comment #138: Rare Vos  on  08/15  at  03:21 PM

Yes, and when every element of President Nader’s agenda got blocked by Tom DeLay, his admirers would have castigated him as a worthless sellout who never believed in anything he was saying.

There’s no point in answering the question of why to vote for Obama. I could point to a very solid list of progressive accomplishments, from the Affordable Care Act, to two sane women on the Supreme Court, to drawing down in Iraq, to repealing Don’t Ask Don’t Tell, to passing a stimulus plan that economists say averted a Second Great Depression but none of these will move you because you will find flaws with each. The ACA is a worthless piece of shit because it’s not single payer, you will say, Elena Kagan is a terrible Supreme Court appointee because she expressed a legal opinion or two you don’t like, or she cut you off in traffic or something, there are still troops in Iraq so it doesn’t matter that there are literally a hundred thousand fewer than there were three years ago. Oh and apparently the new thing is that DADT repeal only happened because Obama needs gay votes despite the fact that he stews with hatred for them. Nothing will ever be good enough for you so there’s no point.

Comment #139: typist  on  08/15  at  03:26 PM

Have you noticed Democrats moving to the left when they lose elections?

Have you noticed them moving to the left when they win elections?

I held my nose and voted for Clinton in his second term; my mother, a social worker, could not bring herself to do the same for the man who oversaw the destruction of AFDC.  Either way, it didn’t matter, because we were in NYC.  I voted for Nader over Al Gore, which again didn’t matter, because of where I was.  I voted for Kerry, because by then I was in a swing state.  I voted for Obama, because I was actually genuinely excited about him and his potential (and, you know, pleased at the idea of having a president who could string words together into a grammatically correct sentence).  It doesn’t seem whether they win or lose has any effect on what they do, because really, they’re beholden to the same corporate interests the Republicans are to finance their campaigns.  It’s not nothing to do with grass-roots organizing.

Comment #140: EG01  on  08/15  at  03:28 PM

And of course everything Obama tried and failed to do, from the DREAM Act, to Gitmo closure, to Cap and Trade, all failed because that was part of his evil plan.

Comment #141: typist  on  08/15  at  03:29 PM

I would like to invite the Gore fans to give it up: it’s history, and your guy lost. And the Nader fans should also remember: your guy lost too.

Agreed.  And that is why I will never bring it up in a discussion.  It’s over, we all lost, and thinking about what could have been is sheer fantasy.  On the other hand, if someone else brings it up I will not shrink away from the issue.

I say we all drop the 2000 election.  It serves only to open old wounds, and drive people apart who are otherwise allies (or should be allies).  None of us are going to change the outcome no matter how we argue (there’s that “illusion of control” theme again); the only thing we are going to do at this point is piss each other off.

Comment #142: Richard Goblin  on  08/15  at  03:30 PM

Kurt - I absolutely agree that my one vote is insignificant.  That’s exactly the point.  Given that, why is a statement of intention on how I intend to use it automatically butthurt and evidence of a willingness to let the world burn?  That makes no fucking sense. 

You’re saying that typist said - that if one doesn’t vote for a politician, that politician has to become more conservative.  This does not entice me to vote.  If politicians are so feeble, fickle and useless how is that supposed to make me want to vote?

Because, if they are that feeble, fickle and useless what difference would voting for them make?  If they lose, they become more conservative and if they win there’s absolutely nothing holding them to doing what they claimed they would do if you did vote for them.

You last sentence would be true if she were arguing for progressive change.  That’s definitely not what this piece is about. So far, there’s been nothing but “butthurt!”, which is unimpressive and unpersuasive.

I’ll say it again.  I was rash in my initial “no way, never” position. I’m still willing to listen.  Someone, give me *something*.

Comment #143: Rare Vos  on  08/15  at  03:31 PM

Triplanetary wrote:

Both parties in the US have been drifting rightward, because the Democrats just don’t generate the same enthusiasm from liberals that the GOP does from conservatives.

Or perhaps, just perhaps, there are more conservative voters than liberal ones. 

 

Comment #144: Dana  on  08/15  at  03:32 PM

I’ll ignore your sniveling, embarrassing “I’m a mind reader!” hysterics, typist, and read up on some of these pros you’re presenting.  Thanks for sort of actually answering.

Comment #145: Rare Vos  on  08/15  at  03:33 PM

Amanda, you are completely wrong, and I am dismayed at this meanly arrogant stance of yours, both with me and your post.  I wouldn’t write like this unless I had clinical psychology experience of at least a decade, with at least one post-graduate field degree.

It is not about me, I cannot put my name next to the lying and the death and the deceit.  Since you easily can and will simply get a different brand of death, lying and deceit with your vote I’m glad for you, truly.  Must be nice to have the world so precisely known and squared away that you must truly know why anyone who doesn’t agree is so obviously wrong, wrong for neurological reasons to boot.

You’ve missed it here, Amanda, and your arrogance, defensiveness and meanness demeans your soul, your history and your blog.

I think you definitely need to ratchet up the oozing dramatic self-righteousness a few notches. Say what you want to say, don’t sugarcoat it or anything.</snark>

Comment #146: DTGslu2K  on  08/15  at  03:33 PM

You’re saying that typist said - that if one doesn’t vote for a politician, that politician has to become more conservative.

I didn’t say that, but when Democrats lose, they think it makes more sense to go for moderates and independents, which are a far larger chunk of the electorate, than for the sliver of the committed left that didn’t vote for them. This is where the illusion of control comes in. Any leftist who thinks they can push the Democrats to the left by not voting for them is simply wrong. Not saying that’s what anyone here thinks, but there are lots of people who do think that.

Comment #147: typist  on  08/15  at  03:34 PM

P.S. can someone explain to me this “his evil plan” bullshit?  What is with the crazed fucking conspiracy theories?  What the fuck is happening here?

Comment #148: Rare Vos  on  08/15  at  03:36 PM

It Really Is the Economy, Stupid: Obama Job Approval vs Economic Perception

“When people think the economy is improving, they start thinking Obama is doing a better job. When the economy seems to get worse people start thinking Obama isn’t performing as well as he should be.

The Obama campaign needs to stop worrying about trying to make Obama look like he is a more sensible adult than the Congressional Republican leadership, tailoring a message to win over independents, or making it appear that Obama is taking the long term deficit seriously. The White House shouldn’t be focusing its time on whether to only push for insufficiently small economic measures that might get Republican support or push for bigger economics plans that are destined to die in Congress.

The best political move right now for the Obama administration is figuring out how to use every power currently vested in the Presidency to noticeably improve the economic conditions of regular people. Fortunately for Obama, the housing crisis is one of the biggest drags on the economy but that is an area the President currently has a lot of power to address unilaterally. There is the unspent HAMP money and the government still owns Freddie Mac and Frannie Mae.

The graph strongly reinforces the belief that regular people don’t really care about political rhetoric and debates over the size of government, what they want at this moment is jobs and economic security. Obama’s best hope is to try some bold persistent experimentation in hopes that something big he does unilaterally manages to make the economy better, because if the economy continues as some prominent economists are now projecting, he is in really bad shape.

http://elections.firedoglake.com/2011/08/15/it-really-is-the-economy-stupid-obama-job-approval-vs-economic-perception/

Unfortunately, >White House Trying to Win Independents with Economic Policies That Do Nothing
http://firedoglake.com/2011/08/14/white-house-trying-to-win-independents-with-economic-policies-that-do-nothing/

Comment #149: judybrowni  on  08/15  at  03:36 PM

...victories that are less than complete.

How does one distinguish a ‘victory that is less than complete’ from, say, a loss?  Along those lines, if one is given the choice between a loss and a worse loss, is it a sign of mental imbalance to try and seek at least a third option?

Also, how does one determine whether an electoral choice is based on mental imbalance or deficit of character?  Is the key factor how many people one can get to agree with one’s decision, or perhaps the level of self-satisfied smugness of at least a plurality of that number?

Many of the arguments I’m seeing used to support Amanda’s can be found here.  Before that, though, Amanda finds a rather extreme and arguably disingenuous example from which to build her thesis.  She cannibalizes that Straw Man to construct yet another, which she displays at the beginning of her fourth paragraph, right before she constructs her nihilistic thought experiment.  Not very convincing, at least not to me.

One thing I find interesting about my reactions to this post is that I tend to find myself cheering, nodding, or Facebook-linking the vast majority of Amanda’s posts, particularly the ones that dissect and lampoon garden variety right wing issues and concepts.  However, I am consistently puzzled by the occasional leftward pissing.  The fixation on Nader and his supporters, festooned as such things usually are with inaccuracies and disingenuous characterizations, is particularly baffling.  This post is emblematic of this unfortunate dynamic.  It’s as though the continuing drop in Obama’s moral stock must be compensated for, and just pointing to an increasingly rancid GOP clown car isn’t even doing the trick.  He’s that bad.  So instead of admitting that just voting for Democrats (including Obama) isn’t really getting us anywhere (never mind ‘policy purity’; what with global climate change and the continuing sabotage of the commons I’d settle for fucking survival), we decide to attack those who refuse to ignore the obvious.

Comment #150: Sam Holloway  on  08/15  at  03:36 PM

Or perhaps, just perhaps, there are more conservative voters than liberal ones.

Yeah, that’s why the right-wing is going out of its way to disenfranchise people and reinstitute Jim Crow-era voting rules.  Because they’re so secure in their voter majority.

Comment #151: EG01  on  08/15  at  03:38 PM

I am neither a mind reader nor hysterical but I’ve spent a lot of time in the lefty blogosphere and I’m pretty well read on all the items I just cited thank you very much. I am well aware that your crowd finds them inadequate. Hell *I* find them inadequate, actually “incomplete” is the better word. The progressive cause is never complete and there’s always more to be done. But there’s a difference between that and saying “Fuck it, both parties suck equally.”

Comment #152: typist  on  08/15  at  03:39 PM

@ Amanda

Will butthurt drive this thread past 300 comments before midnight?  I’m guessing yes.

Quit spanking Nader voters and they will quit complaining about the butthurt.  Seriously.  Give up your own illusion of control that you will be able to cajole and browbeat lefties into being good, reliable Democratic voters.  Let it go. 

Accept that some of us will spank various Democrats on election day if they go too far towards the ever more rightward center.  If enough voters do it, then the politician in question deserves the butthurt.  In game theory, we call this strategy “tit for tat” and it is the arguably optimal response to a politician who fails to be responsive to their base.

 

Comment #153: Richard Goblin  on  08/15  at  03:42 PM

Yeah, that’s why the right-wing is going out of its way to disenfranchise people and reinstitute Jim Crow-era voting rules.  Because they’re so secure in their voter majority.

You misread that person’s comment.

She didn’t say there is a conservative majority, only that there are more conservatives than liberals.

The usual breakdown I’ve seen is something like 25 percent self-identified liberals, 40 percent moderates, and 35 percent self-identified conservatives. This breakdown has remained pretty stable since Reagan.

The result is that, at least in a vacuum, Republicans will tend to see more benefit in pleasing their base than Democrats do.

Further, it’s actually a little worse than that. Polls show that Democratic voters tend to value compromise and problem-solving, whereas Republican voters tend to value ideological purity and standing on principle. As a result, again, Republican politicians will tend to see more benefit in taking base-popular positions and a harder line in negotiations than Democratic politicians will.

Not saying you aren’t right about conservative vote suppression, but I suspect that even without conservative vote suppression, there would still be systemic biases against the left in our system.

Comment #154: Dilan Esper  on  08/15  at  03:44 PM

EG01 - a good point on vote suppression. I remember my jaw hitting the floor when I heard about Texas’s vote suppression law.  (Did it pass?)  The one that lowered the i.d. requirements for seniors and gun-owners and upped them for everyone else.  Blatant election tampering wrapped up in a non-existent voter fraud scandal.

That’s a far more direct threat to Obama’s presidency than my insignificant little vote not being cast for him.

Comment #155: Rare Vos  on  08/15  at  03:45 PM

No need to examine what you wrote at all.  Just stay snotty and defensive.

Paralogia much?

Comment #156: JoeD80  on  08/15  at  03:47 PM

@amandamarcotte,
@ judybrowni 131
@Rare Vos

Yes, I think Janet Rhodes is INEFFECTUALLY petulant and that the Republican field is frightening. This is old news sung in the same song with the same resultant thrashing in the comment section.


I simply do not know if I’m going to vote in 2012 for President, period. Quite aside from my personal political perspective or feelings,  my state passed a law making votes provisional if people move across county lines.  There’s a high likelihood that I’m not going to be at the same address in November 2012. Add in the fact I don’t present as white and I have multiple names (thanks Dad!),  and the fact my job isn’t likely to be a nice white collar job that’ll let me have off to vote, and there’s an excellent chance my vote will not be counted, let alone count in the most literal sense in a swing state that’s hosting the 2012 RNC convention. 

My first election that I could vote in was the 2000 election—so really, my entire adult life, my vote has NEVER counted, even when voting for lesser-of-two-evils (and I’m what they call a “reliable voter.”) Voting for Obama isn’t even going to stop the sky from falling down, but I’m sure as shit not going to vote for a Republican.

What are your ideas for Overtonning from the left (if you are so inclined?)

We don’t currently have that, and that’s a problem when you have all these people Overtonning from the right.

You have to address it otherwise all you’re doing is being trapped into voting for moderates who would have been right wing going back in time, in order to vote against the current rightwingier alternative, which is where we are with Obama right now.

 

 

Comment #157: Shakti  on  08/15  at  03:47 PM

@126
I kind of limit my online reading these days, but I am not surprised to hear that.  I’m only giving Amanda this hard a time about it because she was snotty, dismissive, and insulting, and her thesis that not voting for Obama is a mental illness (that she made up in her own coconut) is horseshit (a word of which I am entirely too fond, I admit).  I know that she’s been trying desperately to push me around with her responses.  So far she’s said I am suffering from her made up mental illness, narcissistic, infantilizing women, a bully, butthurt, and so on.  I’m sure she knows what she wrote is horseshit and doesn’t have the guts to admit it, so she goes the snotty remark route.  She’s better at snotty remarks than analysis, I’ve noticed.  That’s cool.  Go with your strengths.

I suspect that, as blogging has developed, we now have a blog version of The Village.  Some bloggers do seem to spend a lot of time responding to other bloggers and mind reading a la Maureen Dowd.  And they have as hard a time admitting they are full of crap as any Villager.  They also get tons of reinforcement from their comments groupies.  That’s not to say that people don’t have legitimate reasons for agreeing with her.  Far from it.  But there are a lot of them who like to fawn over her even when she posts obvious horseshit like she posted in this one.

Comment #158: DBK  on  08/15  at  03:49 PM

See, the point is Amanda, you cobble enough of those voters together whose votes “don’t count” individually, and yeah, they can swing an election.

That’s what’s the problem with the Obama administration and the Democratic Congress: even when they had the power, they ignored individual voters (and American citizens) and their well-being for what their corporate and ultra-wealthy contributors wanted.

The Republicans campaigned on the “jobs” the Democrats hadn’t bothered to supply (along with continuing unpopular wars), and viola! the 2010 debacle.

Now the Democratic President touched the Third Rail of American politics—put cuts to Social Security and Medicare on the table—and much to his surprise, I imagine, previous Democratic voters aren’t as enthusiastic about him.

My theory is that Obama doesn’t care if the Democrats lose Congress, because that will give him cover for enacting what are, essentially, Republican policies.

He may, or may not, care if he’s re-elected, either.

Clinton seems to be doing rather well for himself out of office.

 

Comment #159: judybrowni  on  08/15  at  03:49 PM

I’m really torn about whether or not I’m going to vote for Obama or not. I think the only Republican I would vote for is Fred Karger, because he’s further to the left than most Dems on social issues. But actively voting for someone like Bachman or Perry over Obama because Obama isn’t leftist enough is fucking stupid. There’s no essay portion on the voting ballot where you can register your progressive rancor at Obama’s less-than-stellar performance in his first term. The Republicans love to crow about their “mandate” and how their back-assward policies are endorsed by the voters. There is absolutely no room for a narrative of a “protest vote” by lefties who want the Democratic party to grow a pair. They won’t discuss it, and their media outlets won’t discuss it, and you might as well be a tri-corn hat wearing teabagger as far as they’re concerned.

Barring a dead girl or a live boy, Obama’s going to win my state in the next election, hands-down. So I can afford to take a stand and put my hands on my hips and flounce a little. If I lived in, say, Ohio, or North Carolina, I would be working myself into knots about this.

Comment #160: Mighty Ponygirl  on  08/15  at  03:50 PM

It really is possible to refuse to vote for a candidate that you believe trades away or never supported what you support. To argue that this is a wrong headed political strategy is fine and reasonable. To assert that those who choose that strategy are not just wrong but deranged is at best smug.  Comment #111: cronopio

Agreed.  That happens a lot on this blog and it’s annoying to read it and sometimes be subjected to it.  Neverthess, I keep coming back to read and occasionally comment.  Amanda often posts thought provoking pieces, she is of my political leaning and my reading the commentary thrashing out some of these points often serves to clarify my thinking.  Sometimes it even corrects my thinking, though I rarely admit such a thing.

I found the “illusion of control” argument persuasive for a type of naysayer but wouldn’t apply it to everyone.  I’m certainly not going to join in the “ARE TOO” responses to DBK’s “AM NOT” assertion.  I will still vote for the lesser of undesireables whenever necessary, mainly because I have never seen a political candidate who was ideal for me and my views.  I only cast one protest vote on the national level, John Anderson in 1980 (Carter’s reelection loss to Reagan).  I would have regretted it if my state was anywhere close to being in play on election day, but it wasn’t.

It’s hard for me to find a non-deranged reason for anyone to vote for Bachmann, though. 

Comment #161: MiddleageLiberal  on  08/15  at  03:53 PM

@Comment #137: Dana on 08/15 at 03:20 PM

Have you seen the Hillary is 44 website?  They’re still pissed off about it!  smile

Damn. Some people cannot let go…

 

Comment #162: atheist  on  08/15  at  03:55 PM

@140 EG01
“It doesn’t seem whether they win or lose has any effect on what they do, because really, they’re beholden to the same corporate interests the Republicans are to finance their campaigns.  It’s not nothing to do with grass-roots organizing.”

That’s what I was saying.  Nobody punishing anyone by withholding their votes due to mental illness, as Amanda snotted, but recognizing reality.  Robert Reich said, on some TV show or other, about the Democrats and Republicans, “They all drink from the same trough.”  And that’s the bottom line.

Comment #163: DBK  on  08/15  at  03:55 PM

Wait…  this makes no sense.  I get that it would be ridiculous to vote for Bachman because Obama upset my liberal sensibilities, and anyway, that op-ed was written by a woman who probably never actually voted democrat anyway and was only agitating for lefty ennui and disengagement from the democratic process.  I don’t want to be part of that idiocy and so I won’t fall for it.  Fair enough all around, right?

But the thesis wasn’t that it was ridiculous to be unhappy with Obama, was it?  Or to say that it was stupid to vote for more liberal third-party candidates?  That can’t possibly be what the post was about, because it would mean that I was being told to swallow the shit sandwich and do what I was told, regardless of my passing acquaintance with what’s actually happening to me and my family in this very real world.  I’m on board voting for Obama, but I’m seriously disappointed with his relatively conservative Presidency.  He is far to the right of me, and though I’m voting for him, I won’t be campaigning on his behalf.  He has alienated me as an enthusiastic supporter and that’s not my fault;  it’s his.

No big deal though;  I’ll just focus my participation on local races and issues, where my vote and voice always made more of a difference anyway.

Comment #164: Eileen  on  08/15  at  03:58 PM

Not that I disagree with the factual nature of anything you say there, Dilan @154, but I think the biggest systemic liability the ‘left’ has in this country is, well, the ‘left.’  You can’t compromise with someone who wants you dead, so the willingness and preference for compromise is a fatal flaw in our situation.  The right wing knows this, and they also know that liberals’ self-justified and rationalized spinelessness is a factor at least as potent as the idiotic fear and loathing that drives right-wingers to the polls. 

This comment thread is illustrative of this problem.  See how many logical pretzels are twisted, how many fallacious arguments are made, and how many undead memes are resurrected in order to deny the basic fact that Barack Obama is a horrible president for anyone who doesn’t like elective wars, eroded civil liberties, and seeing the commons sold off to the holders of concentrated wealth.  WTF?  Hey, comrade, if you’re satisfied with your shit sandwich, I won’t hate on you if that’s your kink.  But don’t look at me like I’m the weirdo for not wanting to order from the coprophagist menu.

Comment #165: Sam Holloway  on  08/15  at  03:58 PM

Repeated again: What are your ideas for Overtonning from the left (if you are so inclined?)

I’m thinking it really doesn’t matter if you just make elected officials uncomfortable because they’ll just find another suit.  What really needs to happen is to actively makes their donors uncomfortable. Very, very uncomfortable.

Comment #166: Shakti  on  08/15  at  03:58 PM

I don’t get this “Candidate X doesn’t represent me.”  We’re not talking about choosing internet avatars here.  These are real humans, one of whom will be a better (or less bad) choice than the others.

Comment #167: Satanicpanic  on  08/15  at  03:59 PM

Perhaps that’s why there’s so much infantile vitriol, then.  Recognizing that the power is in the hands of corporations (cuz they’re “people!”) means giving up the post-adolescent idealistic ‘we shall overcome’ dream.  Grassroots means fuck-all when Wal-Mart* gets to decide who runs for president.  And (actual) people still shop there, giving Wal-Mart the money to fuck actual people over.

For me, its not really Obama that I’ve lost “faith” in, so much as democracy as a whole as long as corporations are “people”, and “people” way more powerful, influential and straight up harmful than actual human beings.


* - just used as a stand in for any corporation “person”.

Comment #168: Rare Vos  on  08/15  at  04:03 PM

“I think DBK is a good example of how the illusion of control it leads to an all or nothing attitude. We either obsess over what we should’ve have done differently to change the situation, or we completely give up since we can’t control the situation.”

Not to be an obnoxious purist or whatever, but I have to sympathize with the latter to an extent. If the victories are so tiny that they don’t even begin to lift the suffering you experience, let alone that of people much worse off than you, is it really such a crime to not be thrilled by them? Try telling a slave in the early 1800s to keep on truckin’ because it’ll only be another 60 years until he is a free man, and then another 100 years until he has basic civil rights, and then god knows how much longer until he is treated with respect and dignity by most people. It may be narcissistic to focus on how you have nothing to celebrate personally, but that’s not going to stop humans being at least a little self-interested.

In the context here (the election and Obama) I pretty much agree entirely with Amanda, but in many other contexts it’s excusable and even laudable to have that attitude (e.g.: the issues in recent years with a non-trans inclusive ENDA, because to trans people, an ENDA that didn’t protect them would have had the same value as no ENDA at all. All-or-nothing is better than nothing-or-nothing).

Comment #169: Treefinger  on  08/15  at  04:06 PM

Shakti - I don’t understand the question. What do you mean by overtonning? 

I totally agree with you about the making the donors uncomfortable though. That’s the ONE WAY grassroots movements are going to make even a lick of difference. 

But even there, I don’t see much hope.  The most powerful corporations are almost unilaterally republican-supporting and are corporations that you can’t do much to hurt. I.e. Exxon - what’s going to hurt them apart from no one buying gas?  In what dream world is that going to happen?

(Is shifting the focus from Obama to our corporatocracy still “butthurt”?)

Comment #170: Rare Vos  on  08/15  at  04:10 PM

@167

Suppose someone has, as his or her “real” constituency (not the people who voted for him or her, but the people who pull the strings), big corporations.  Suppose that sometimes these corporations allow the rep to vote the way the people in the district would like in order to get re-elected, but the rep doesn’t really represent you on those votes.  He or she is still voting for the real constituency, not you.  That rep isn’t repping you at all, and any votes that seem to represent you are pretty much coincidental or manipulative.  Let us further suppose that the votes this rep casts aren’t even about supporting what the rep thinks is best for the majority of the voters in the district, but exclusively what the lobbyists for the puppeteers want.  Now suppose the candidates from both parties are exactly like that, all drinking from the same trough, as Robert Reich called it.

That’s the US government.  You can vote for a candidate who best represents the corporations whose views are most like your own, I suppose, but those corporations own the candidates from both parties, so you really aren’t getting any traction there either.

One of the reasons I don’t fear a Bachmann or Perry presidency is that they will still only be able to do what their puppet masters tell them to do, just like Obama.  This is what Nader was talking about when he used to talk about how there isn’t any difference between the parties.

Comment #171: DBK  on  08/15  at  04:13 PM

That’s an awful lot of track to lay down just to build your “privileged” DFH straw man.  Accusing others of having control issues because their team spirit is slipping sounds like classic projection to me.

Comment #172: elpathos  on  08/15  at  04:13 PM

Kurt - I absolutely agree that my one vote is insignificant.  That’s exactly the point.  Given that, why is a statement of intention on how I intend to use it automatically butthurt and evidence of a willingness to let the world burn?  That makes no fucking sense.

The point is not about the statement of intention—it’s pretending that your statement is important. Go read Rhode’s article. It has the title “Your Vote is a Weapon.” It’s not. She’s wrong, and we both know she’s wrong. She’s acting as if her little “called my congressman and threw a fit” routine makes any sort of difference. She’s “butthurt” because her complaints are pointless.

There’s nothing wrong with being angry. There’s nothing wrong with acting on that anger. But actions that have no ability to change what angers you are a waste of time. To clarify, let’s look at this quote from Sam Holloway:

However, I am consistently puzzled by the occasional leftward pissing.

The flaw in this sentence is the word “leftward.” Apparently, willingness to sign on to stupid, pointless strategies is the hallmark of being on the left. It’s not the issues you promote, or your stances on them, or even any criticisms of the establishment you have previously given. The hallmark of the True Progressive is one’s commitment to petulant whining. Only when we have sulked enough will the great society be built.

There continues to be this buried assumption that criticism of the way in which “purists” are voicing their complaints constitutes a rejection of their complaints. “Purists” aren’t actually more pure, they’re just insisting on making a show of actions that are irrelevant.

Comment #173: Kurt Horner  on  08/15  at  04:18 PM

#171 One of the reasons I don’t fear a Bachmann or Perry presidency is that they will still only be able to do what their puppet masters tell them to do, just like Obama.

But no, just because they’re both caught up in the same messed up system doesn’t mean that there’s no difference between the two.  Because the small bit of leeway that the candidates get will either be used to, on one hand, agitate for the end to DADT, or, on the other, press for a Sanctity of Marriage amendment.  There’s still a demonstrable difference between the two parties, though less than I would like.

We need to agitate to get back our government from corporate control and influence, but in the meantime, there’s still a meaningful difference.  A huge and meaningful difference.

Comment #174: Eileen  on  08/15  at  04:19 PM

KristinMH, I actually had that thought today before I read this thread, and I’m just saying.

I’m skeptical of this psychological theory because I know of some cases where people were exposed to the reality of death at an early age—- my mother was 8 or 9 years when she saw a Chinese guerrilla fighter get buried alive by his Japanese Army captors.

I think it made her more of a liberal and more of a fighter for what she believed in, I think it even led her to hid her own racist tendencies from us children, which is hardly a conservative position.

Can you explain what this means?

Soitanly

1. ButtHurt 1648 up, 140 down

An inappropriately strong negative emotional response from a perceived personal insult. Characterized by strong feelings of shame. Frequently associated with a cessation of communication and overt hostility towards the “aggressor.”

4.  butthurt 233 up, 119 down

when your little pride or feelings get hurt
When he didn’t include me on the invite list, I got butthurt.

buy butthurt mugs & shirts
by justfivefeet1970 Oct 4, 2004

But there are a lot of them who like to fawn over her even when she posts obvious horseshit like she posted in this one.

And you’re here posting with the best of them. 

What does that tell us about you?

I’m reminded of Voltaires’ answered prayer.

Comment #175: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  08/15  at  04:19 PM

I can’t agree on that part, DBK. I am very much afraid of a Bachman and/or Perry presidency because of their corporate sponsorship.  You can’t honestly say that the (white, old, rich) men who own and run those companies aren’t going to let them run wild with the hate-mongering legislation (or wev) if they get elected. They would actively support it, I think, to put the bitches, darkies, queers, et al back in their place - under the boot. 

I just disagree that a democrat in office would do anything but slightly slow that progression.

Comment #176: Rare Vos  on  08/15  at  04:20 PM

Disappointed?  Yes.  But I made a mistake not voting for Carter in 1980 in a protest non-vote (not that it would have mattered), and I will not ever do that again.  You can bet that I will, again, be the first person in line at my polling place across the street, an hour before it opens, lawn chair and hot chocolate in hand, and, again, talk to the same other people who are there at that time, election after election after election.

Comment #177: Iam138  on  08/15  at  04:23 PM

Mr Esper wrote:

You misread that person’s comment.

(H)e didn’t say there is a conservative majority, only that there are more conservatives than liberals.

Actually, I said that there might be more conservative voters than liberal voters.  I leave open the possibility that there might be almost as many “liberals,” however that term is really defined, as “conservatives,” but it does seem to me that conservatives vote in greater numbers.

 

Comment #178: Dana  on  08/15  at  04:27 PM

Rare Vos wrote:

I absolutely agree that my one vote is insignificant.  That’s exactly the point.  Given that, why is a statement of intention on how I intend to use it automatically butthurt and evidence of a willingness to let the world burn?  That makes no fucking sense.

Perhaps if you asked Al Gore about whether a measly 538 votes are significant?

Comment #179: Dana  on  08/15  at  04:29 PM

@170 Rare Vos The Overton Window, better known as a Glenn Beck novel, is a “a “window” in the range of public reactions to ideas in public discourse, in a spectrum of all possible options on a particular issue.  Overtonning is the act of trying to drag, narrow or widen that window so your view is within the range of acceptable policy positions.

You (collective) make the actual humans who are at the head of or very upper management of those corporations very uncomfortable personally, in addition to targeted boycotts.  Basically, if you work for the corporation and most of that income is dividends or bonuses, you’d be on that list. Obviously, people’s definitions of culpability and what they’re willing to do differ. Most people would not be willing to do this in any degree, regardless of their political affiliation.

But consider, for every asshole who sits in front of a clinic to scream at women, and to put up flyers demonizing doctors, there’s about a hundred people who are nodding in approval, piously disavowing their methods but not their sentiments.

Comment #180: Shakti  on  08/15  at  04:29 PM

#179 Either my vote is meaningful or not.  I’m getting mixed messages.  When I vote for Obama I concede that I am a mortal cog, and it is absurd to vote otherwise because my vote is so small anyway, but if I vote for Nader over Gore, I’m the asshole who cost the Gore the election.  I don’t want to be an asshole or a cog!  What do I do?  Stop testing me!

Comment #181: Eileen  on  08/15  at  04:36 PM

Don’t agree with the thought experiment, though.  If some day we’re all gonna die, why do anything?  Why not just kill yourself?

Because we experience our existence in the present, not in the future. Acknowledging and accepting the finite nature of our time in this world isn’t meant to push us into the nihilistic attitude that nothing really matters, it’s meant to push us into making the best of what little amount of time we do have. In other words, we’re all gonna die someday, but that doesn’t mean that we’re already dead today, nor does it mean that we should just say fuck it and freely relinquish the opportunity to experience joy and pleasure while we’re here.

Don’t get me wrong, I understand the thinking, and I’d be lying if I didn’t admit that I succumb to it myself sometimes. Trying to ignore my own mortality as a way to combat the nihilistic thoughts I sometimes have doesn’t really work, because deep down I can’t con myself into denying my own mortality. The most effective tool I have is not to try to pretend that my death is avoidable, but to really appreciate and internalize the fact that just because I’m going to die someday doesn’t mean I have to spend my living years acting as though I’m already dead. I can’t control the fact that everyday that passes brings me one day closer to my own eventual death, but to some extent, I can control how I spend the time I have between now and whenever my death comes to pass.

Comment #182: DTGslu2K  on  08/15  at  04:36 PM

@Comment #178: Dana on 08/15 at 04:27 PM

but it does seem to me that conservatives vote in greater numbers.

As someone already asked you on this thread, then how do you account for the centrality of voter disenfranchisement campaigns in Republican strategy?

Comment #183: atheist  on  08/15  at  04:40 PM

We need to build from the ground up.  Conservatives started paying attention to school boards, city council, and such years ago where they can have a lot of influence over local policies.  They now have people who are moving up through the ranks and bringing others with them.  Progressives tend to focus on the high-up races, but that’s not where the political grooming and influence are.  In my fairly liberal part of the country, I see local politics dominated by conservatives (even in “non-partisan” races).  We have to get out into the trenches and start our own ground-up organization. (and props to Dark Avenger at #54, who’s doing just that).  The real power at the top here is Congress, and we need to support our local people as they head up the food chain.  The president can only do so much.

Comment #184: NobleExperiments  on  08/15  at  04:42 PM

*I don’t see how this question follows from the knowledge of one’s mortality, at all.*

There’s a huge leap from simply acknowledging your mortality to accepting that you have ZERO control over it.  Amanda’s really scraping the bottom of the rhetorical barrel here to support her armchair assumptions.

Comment #185: elpathos  on  08/15  at  04:42 PM

“However, the Republicans are scarier now than they’ve been for 40 years, so it’s likely I’ll uncurl from fetus status.”  Comment #131: judybrowni on 08/15 at 03:12 PM

This, to me, is the issue.  There is going to be actual damage done to actual people if the Republicans win in 2012.  This isn’t alarmist rhetoric either.  Damage is already taking place as a result of the last election.  There isn’t going to be a progressive candidate for President.  The Democratic party is going to nominate Obama.  The congressional election is going to be more important than the presidential election, and staying home to prove a point to Obama and conservative Democrats isn’t going to solve anything. 

You certainly have a right to vote for Nader or anyone you please, but the election is going to matter a lot more to the people at the bottom of the economic ladder than the people at the top.  Women, minorities and the working poor are going to suffer for your exercise in ideology, and your voting for someone other than Obama isn’t going to change that, it’s going to make it even more probable. 

Comment #186: G Porgey  on  08/15  at  04:42 PM

I live in California, so I know that my vote doesn’t really matter.

In regards to the presidential election specifically, you are absolutely correct. The problem with that thinking in a broader sense is that it leads to a certain amount of complacency on the left and creates a path for things like Proposition 8 to pass in a state in which it never should have been close in the first place. If you live in a state that is solidly blue or red and the winner of the presidential election in your state is almost always known long in advance, that doesn’t mean you should blow off all of the other contests in your state’s elections, whose outcomes are usually far less certain. Just because your vote might not really matter in the presidential election doesn’t mean it won’t have any influence further down the ballot.

Comment #187: DTGslu2K  on  08/15  at  04:45 PM

#165:

I dealt with this earlier in the thread.

As I said, I have nothing against left-wing voters who refuse to vote for candidates who don’t make the sale to them. Nobody’s entitled to your vote. At the same time, as I said, I think the general arguments for “party line” voting are pretty strong—i.e., generally a party line vote will have the greatest chance of maximizing your interests.

The reality is that I do think that when base voters threaten to walk, it has an impact on politicians. I think the Democratic Party’s turn against the Iraq War was very much a result of that—we went from having a party whose leaders endorsed basically the same imperialistic militarism that the Republicans endorsed to a party that was chastened by its base into admitting that the Iraq War was a disaster. That only happened because Democratic voters almost sank John Kerry, almost sank Joe Lieberman, and did sink Hillary Clinton.

It’s all, in the end, about what each voter cares about, what their dealbreakers are. As I said, despite this post, I can imagine some things that Obama could do on the issue of reproductive rights that could cause Amanda to walk. (Or me to walk, for that matter.) And as someone who finds most offensive uses of military force basically a form of unjustified and immoral murder, there are plenty of things that a Democratic president could do that would cause me to walk as well. I would not have voted for LBJ in 1968 or Harry Truman in 1952 under any circumstances, and I probably would not have voted for Humphrey in 1968 either.

But having said that, there’s also a strong argument about being realistic about dealbreakers, because the other side is almost always worse.

Comment #188: Dilan Esper  on  08/15  at  04:47 PM

There are two things that are true:

1) Obama is a shitty President.  The reason he is a shitty President is that he wants to be a shitty President.  Nothing we can possibly do will affect his commitment to being a shitty President.

2) Whoever the GOP nominates will be worse.  For the same reason, actually.

Once we accept that there are no good options, maybe we can have a grownup conversation about how one builds for the future while dealing with the utter failure of the US political system in the present.

Comment #189: Punditus Maximus  on  08/15  at  04:49 PM

#186 - this is where this argument starts to lose me.  Women, other minorities, etc. - are already suffering despite Obama’s presidency.  You’re acting like those of saying saying we might not vote for him AREN’T in any of those groups. That’s completely false -  I’m in all three. (so that “you’re privileged if you don’t like obama” argument is a total failure).

My voting for him made no difference.  It will make no difference this time either.

Comment #190: Rare Vos  on  08/15  at  04:53 PM

Punditus - that discussion already took place amid the “you’re butthurt!!” evasions - start from the ground up.  Vote local.

Comment #191: Rare Vos  on  08/15  at  04:54 PM

Sounds like the guy has a lot of experience in government to me. Also a lot of experience in executive decision-making and managing large groups of people.  Those sound like good presidential skills to me.

He also has a long history of refusing to compromise on ANYTHING, which had made him an effective advocate outside of government, but would have made him a piss-poor politician.  At this point, he has no friends or allies anywhere; even his most erstwhile supporters (trial lawyers) have abandoned him because of his refusal to compromise.  In fact, his entire reason for running for office was due to the fact that his brand of advocacy had become increasingly ineffective and irrelevant.

Comment #192: keshmeshi  on  08/15  at  04:58 PM

Satanicpanic @167

I don’t get this “Candidate X doesn’t represent me.”  We’re not talking about choosing internet avatars here.  These are real humans, one of whom will be a better (or less bad) choice than the others.
Comment #167: Satanicpanic on 08/15 at 03:59 PM

It is not, for me, a question of “Candidate X doesn’t represent me.” Of course she / he does not represent me - it’s a silly hope. The question is does she / he support enough of a political program that I can support. For me - and others certainly will choose different political strategies - the answer is no. There is too much bad from Obama - elective wars, silence on torture, failed health care reform, robber baron economic priorities, etc. - for me to sign on. Dennis Rivera famously said something along the lines of “If you are going to sell out you are supposed to get something for it.” I’m not getting enough from Obama - you may be.

Again, choose your strategy and feel free to argue mine is wrong. Just don’t assume that those with different strategies are necessarily crazy because it’s more comfortable. We all knew George W was stupid and he wiped the floor with us. We all know the tea party are crazy yet they’ve managed to make sure that no rational economic policy is on the table. Yeah—calling people crazy has really worked out well for us.

 

Comment #193: cronopio  on  08/15  at  05:01 PM

“I think the Democratic Party’s turn against the Iraq War was very much a result of that—we went from having a party whose leaders endorsed basically the same imperialistic militarism that the Republicans endorsed to a party that was chastened by its base into admitting that the Iraq War was a disaster. That only happened because Democratic voters almost sank John Kerry, almost sank Joe Lieberman, and did sink Hillary Clinton.”

And that change of heart resulted in complete withdrawal from Iraq and all those GIs are home now.

Oh, wait a minute.

Comment #194: DBK  on  08/15  at  05:06 PM

I demand a withdrawal of American troops from Germany and Japan so we can finally end World War II.

Comment #195: typist  on  08/15  at  05:11 PM

How dare I exercise my right to vote for Nader in 2000 because I thought he would do the best job.

If your belief that Nader would do the best job was coupled with a belief that he had a legitimate chance of winning the election, then you are completely detached from reality. I vehemently disagree with the strategy of casting third party votes as a form of protest against the major party that is closest to your ideology because I think it’s ineffective, but I get it.

What I don’t get is how anybody who voted for Ralph Nader in 2000 could claim to have done so with the sincere belief that it might have led to him actually being elected president. If you’re a Nader voter who claims to have voted for him in 2000 because you earnestly thought it might help him get elected, you are either lying or incredibly delusional. Ralph Nader was never going to win that election, nor will he ever be elected president anytime in the future. And that also applies to every other 3rd party presidential candidate who appears on the ballot anytime in the next 20 years. Perhaps the day will come when 3rd party presidential candidates have genuine viability (I have serious doubts), but we’re a hell of a long way from being there. I’m 36 years old, and I’ll be truly shocked if I ever see someone who isn’t either a Democrat or a Republican getting elected president in my lifetime. All of which means that I’m probably going to vote in many elections for a center-right Democrat who is disappointing but at the same time the only rational choice when compared to his/her Republican opponent.

This is an incredibly terrific post. It’s a bit tangential, but Janet Rhodes’ attitude reminds me a lot of smug blue-state residents who say they would love to see states like Texas secede from the union while completely ignoring the worst consequences of such a thing happening. The fact is, there are a shitload of poor and marginalized citizens who are our allies who wouldn’t have the means to just pack up and move to a friendlier state if the left acquiesced and allowed misogynist homophobic racist assholes to create a new Republic of Texas as a separate nation. So the next time you’re sitting in your favorite trendy hangout in Berkeley, California cheerleading for Texas to actually secede, realize that an inevitable consequence of such an event would be even more suffering for a few million poor Hispanic citizens who are already treated like dirt in that state. Some of the blood would be on your hands, too.

Comment #196: DTGslu2K  on  08/15  at  05:18 PM

Thanks typist for illustrating the futility of electing Democrats, who love endless wars just as much as Batshit Republicans.

Comment #197: elpathos  on  08/15  at  05:21 PM

Comment #190: Rare Vos

I wasn’t saying that you are privileged if you don’t vote for Obama.  I’m saying that your vote will affect people who are not privileged a lot more than the privileged.  The poor, women, and minorities who are already under stress in this economy, and suffering the backlash of conservatism in civil rights and their right to make decisions about their own body can’t afford to wait for you to make the Democratic party perfect before you vote Democratic.  The fact that people are suffering despite Obama’s presidency doesn’t mean that they can’t suffer more if a Republican President and a Republican congress is elected.  You may not be privileged.  I don’t know anything about your personal circumstances, but that has nothing to do with the argument at hand.  People are going to suffer more due to a Democratic loss in 2012 than a Democratic win.  There will be roll backs in the rights we have gained since the mid-sixties and deeper cuts in social programs.  There will be a further tightening of the belt for the middle class, and a wider gap between rich and poor.  Maybe your voting for him in 2008 made no difference, but my vote for him insured that there is at least a possibility of veto for some of the really outrageous Republican/Tea Party legislation that might come up.  Do you really think that there would be no difference if John McCain were president and Sarah Palin was vice-president? 

Comment #198: G Porgey  on  08/15  at  05:22 PM

Actually, typist:
90,000 Japanese Protest Against Okinawa U.S. Military Base
Other than that, comparing the continuing brutal occupation of Iraq, which was predicated on a pack of complete lies, to the relatively peaceful postwar occupations of Germany and Japan, which were predicated on, well, okay, fuck it.  Either you don’t know the history or you’re content to be dishonest in your urge to score a cheap point.  Either way, never mind.

Also, to Kurt Horner @173:

The flaw in this sentence is the word “leftward.”

  This assertion was not explained.  All that followed made no sense, anyway, so try again.  Or rather, don’t.

Comment #199: Sam Holloway  on  08/15  at  05:26 PM

@199
Yup.

Comment #200: DBK  on  08/15  at  05:31 PM

Why don’t these guys ever conduct a letter campaign or something?

Comment #201: Crissa  on  08/15  at  05:34 PM

This will have to be quick because my furry overlord is demanding attention.

@195, typist, that argument is entirely fallacious.  The discussion was that there was something accomplished by the Democrats allegedly turning against the Iraq War.  My point was that this alleged turning accomplished nothing.

Your response makes no sense in that discussion, unless it was to make my point, since those troops are still there too.  Did you have a point?

And now I have to go attend to a very demanding four year old cat who thinks I work for her.

And I do.

Comment #202: DBK  on  08/15  at  05:34 PM

I get the feeling that the Romney campaign is very aware of the pro/anti-Obama split in the Democratic party. He’s admitted that global warming is real, refused to sign the anti-abortion pledge, etc. If he can convince enough disaffected Dems that he’s a not-scary Republican he might just get enough of them to stay home to swing the election.
Won’t work with me even though I don’t care for Obama - I’m basing my vote almost entirely on who would get appointed to the Supreme Court and Obama is clearly the best choice there. It does seem like a pretty sound strategy though if he can survive the nomination fight.

Comment #203: Skye  on  08/15  at  05:35 PM

It’s pretty fucking obvious we never should have invaded Iraq but Colin Powell’s “Pottery Barn” rule of “You break it, you own it” has always made a certain degree of sense to me. Leaving in the middle of a bloody civil war that we precipitated only compounds the sin of starting the bloody civil war in the first place. I expect you’ll disagree.

As to the “leftward” point, Kurt DID explain what he meant. Amanda is attacking attitudes and tactics, not ideologies.

Also…Janet Rhodes stated her intent to vote for the Republican presidential candidate in 2012. Um, does she still qualify as being “leftward”?

Comment #204: typist  on  08/15  at  05:35 PM

A hundred thousand fewere troops equals nothing. A *hundred thousand*.

Jesus.

Comment #205: typist  on  08/15  at  05:36 PM

And why don’t people who are saying they won’t vote seem to understand:  The only people who it’s useful to sway are voters.  Swaying someone who won’t vote isn’t useful.  Yes, there’s a huge, silent majority out there that doesn’t vote.  But since they don’t vote, politicians can’t get elected with their votes.

And hence, the voters, even though a minority, elected Republicans to follow the Tea-Party banner.

If you don’t vote, you don’t have a voice.  If you want to move the country to the left, do it in the primary; your next chance will be in 2016.  Blame the 22nd amendment if you want.  But vote for the guy closest to you of the top two in the general.

If you don’t, you’ll get more of the Roberts’ court.  Duh.

Comment #206: Crissa  on  08/15  at  05:45 PM

I love how Amanda posting in exactly the same manner she does weekly about Not Us but this time about Us provokes peels of outrage. Seriously, Pandagon is built upon impugning of others’ reasons for doing things in a funny and usually (I think) insightful manner. I think, when Amanda’s on, she’s great at it. Why is everyone else here?

I never expected much of Obama (or Hillary Clinton. For fucks’ sake, she’s Hillary. Clinton.) so maybe I’m not getting it. I just think we have a two party system. We can talk about changing that, and I’d love to, but that’s not going to get done by 2012. I’m leftier than anybody I can think of in the Democratic Party and I don’t hold a brief for Obama. Honestly, I think he’s a moral monster, given that he kills a lot of people for not particularily good reasons, IMO, and seems to not be terribly bothered by the rich and corporations looting the public treasury.

But I’m fucking voting for him anyway. It’s not that I endorse him, or the system of military empire and shit sandwich economics he represents (packing your treasury department with Wall Street execs whose buddies just nuked the economy and you’re supposed to be some great politician?)It’d be worth my vote just for abortion to remain nominally legal and fewer, less costly wars. That’s not exactly manning the barricades and singing “James Connolly” but it’s better than we’ll get from the other side. There’s no justiceward curve to history, it only curves because we make it do so.

I’m all for building a leftist alternative to the Dems, but the presidential election isn’t the place to do it. I’d argue that the place is within the Democratic Party, but we could also start by trying to win deep blue state house seats for the Greens or whomever. That’s how the Populists did it back in the day. They’d run as Dems in some districts and Republicans in others, but they were Populists. See also the old Socialists on a smaller scale.

Comment #207: witless chum  on  08/15  at  05:54 PM

As to the “leftward” point, Kurt DID explain what he meant. Amanda is attacking attitudes and tactics, not ideologies.

Sounds like splitting nonexistent hairs to me, but have it your way.  In order to attack said ‘attitudes and tactics,’ Amanda cherry-picked a ludicrously extreme example and then linked it, not-too-subtly, to the resilient hippie-punching bugbear of this blog, the Nader/third-party/Green voter.  But as long as we’re “attacking attitudes and tactics,” pray tell what ideology is supported or defended by consistently voting for the diminishing returns of the corporate-owned and operated Democratic Party?  ‘Our candidates aren’t as overtly vile as the GOP’s’?  Sounds thrilling.  Sign me up.

...Colin Powell’s “Pottery Barn” rule of “You break it, you own it” has always made a certain degree of sense to me.

When the craven rationalization of a vile, cowardly, bloodstained liar such as Colin Powell supports your argument, you probably need to reconsider your argument.

A hundred thousand fewere troops equals nothing. A *hundred thousand*.

Less than nothing, when they’re largely replaced by unaccountable mercenaries.  Not to mention the world’s largest ‘embassy’ is still in place, and also not to mention that none of the architects of the illegal invasion and occupation have yet been prosecuted.  The occupation continues, and so does the impunity.  Oh, and did I mention Afghanistan and Pakistan?

Janet Rhodes stated her intent to vote for the Republican presidential candidate in 2012. Um, does she still qualify as being “leftward”?

See: reference to cherry-picking and Straw Man construction.  Okay, now I’m cherry-picking.  This is too easy.  I apologize.

Comment #208: Sam Holloway  on  08/15  at  05:55 PM

@Comment #204: typist on 08/15 at 05:35 PM

It’s pretty fucking obvious we never should have invaded Iraq but Colin Powell’s “Pottery Barn” rule of “You break it, you own it” has always made a certain degree of sense to me. Leaving in the middle of a bloody civil war that we precipitated only compounds the sin of starting the bloody civil war in the first place.

With all due respect, typist, this seems merely like another “Illusion of Control”. The US military is not set up for true “peacekeeping” missions, and it will not likely be able to keep peace in Iraq, either. We should remove our military and let them sort matters out, in their own way. I’m well aware that will mean deaths. We cannot really prevent violence in Iraq at this point.

Comment #209: atheist  on  08/15  at  05:59 PM

Re: Comment #171: DBK on 08/15 at 04:13 PM

You’re an idiot.  A blind, stupid idiot.  Do you think we would’ve had the Citizens United decision had Gore won?  Had Kerry?  You’re saying you’d rather penalize the Democrats for being insufficiently pure - and that’s what you’re saying, that since the entire Democratic Party, every single elected official, doesn’t do what you want, you’re going to penalize their candidate.

What kind of person thinks that they should stand up and say, ‘I’m a fucking asshole!  Listen to me post about how much a waste of human shit I am!’?  If that’s not a selfish, controlling point of view, I don’t know what is.

If you’re not going to vote, shut the fuck up.  If you don’t vote, the people who do will choose for you.  And in 2010 you saw who they chose.  So don’t being a complete idiot.

Comment #210: Crissa  on  08/15  at  06:00 PM

Re: Comment #171: DBK on 08/15 at 04:13 PM

You’re an idiot.  A blind, stupid idiot.  Do you think we would’ve had the Citizens United decision had Gore won?  Had Kerry?  You’re saying you’d rather penalize the Democrats for being insufficiently pure - and that’s what you’re saying, that since the entire Democratic Party, every single elected official, doesn’t do what you want, you’re going to penalize their candidate.

What kind of person thinks that they should stand up and say, ‘I’m a fucking asshole!  Listen to me post about how much a waste of human shit I am!’?  If that’s not a selfish, controlling point of view, I don’t know what is.

If you’re not going to vote, shut the fuck up.  If you don’t vote, the people who do will choose for you.  And in 2010 you saw who they chose.  So don’t being a complete idiot.

PS, it seems my comment got trashed after previewing it a few times…

Comment #211: Crissa  on  08/15  at  06:02 PM

...Or it took several minutes to show up.  *sigh*

Comment #212: Crissa  on  08/15  at  06:03 PM

Over 200 comments, driven by butthurt!  I think we’ll make the 300-by-midnight finish line without a problem.

Comment #213: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/15  at  06:03 PM

There are two arguments being conflated here:

1) That the “taking your ball and going home” routine is pointless and stupid.

2) That Obama has been pretty awesome and complaints about his Presidency are without merit.
I don’t think Amanda (nor any sane person) would argue for statement two. The problem here is that anyone who makes statement one is automatically assumed to be making statement two. This makes any discussion on the matter of purity frustrating.

Exactamundo. I am not now, nor have I ever been, an “Obamabot”. I admit that I was probably a bit naive in 2008 in expecting a lot more than what we’ve gotten out of his presidency, but I am under no illusion that Obama is a staunchly progressive president, because he isn’t.

When I hear criticism from the left about Obama’s presidency thus far, more often than not, I am nodding my head in agreement. Hell yeah, I’ve been disappointed by him in many ways. Hell yeah, I wish Obama the president was a lot more like Obama the presidential candidate. And hell yeah, I think people on the left have a right to be disappointed in his presidency and vocalize that disappointment.

Where I break away from the nihilistic faction of the left is in the seeming belief that anything good could possibly come from Obama’s defeat by his Republican opponent next year. Really, what good things will happen for the left if Rick Perry or Mitt Romney move into the White House in January 2013? How will the progressive movement benefit in any way from this? How will the fight for social justice be strengthened rather than weakened by just handing the White House back to the same assholes who bear the most responsibility for driving this country into the shitty position it is currently in?

I think that President Obama is far too conciliatory and far too willing to compromise away everything progressive in order to achieve some sense of “bipartisanship”. I think the fact that GOP has been so effective at playing him could very well lead to his defeat next year. I wish Obama was a lot more of a fighter than he actually is. I wish he was more like FDR and LBJ than he is like George H.W. Bush.

Having said all of that, when I walk into the ballot booth on November 6, 2012, there will only be two names on that ballot who have any chance of getting elected president - Barack Obama and whoever his GOP opponent is (most likely either Rick Perry or Mitt Romney). I can cast my vote for a third party candidate who I know won’t win, I can cast my vote for the Republican asshole out of spite, or I can cast my vote for the incumbent president who has been extremely disappointing at times, but I know objectively is still the better, or if you prefer, the “least worst” choice available. What I can’t do is vote for someone other than Obama and then whine about it when Rick Perry is declared our 45th president that night.

If you wanna vote for a third party candidate who has no chance or whichever wingnut asshole the GOP nominates for president next year, be my guest. But if you do so, and Obama loses, you have forfeited the right to complain about an outcome that you helped to bring about.

As the old saying goes, be careful what you wish for, because you might actually get it.

Comment #214: DTGslu2K  on  08/15  at  06:04 PM

@123

“It’s not extortion, do what the fuck you want, I’m going to go get an MBA and stop caring about people while you guys let the world burn but keep your sense of self righteousness, that’s clearly the only thing to do.”

Yeah, good luck with that. Obama bargained away subsidized student loans for grad school.

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2011/08/03/debt_ceiling_affecting_students.aspx

Comment #215: vitaminC  on  08/15  at  06:04 PM

As to the “leftward” point, Kurt DID explain what he meant. Amanda is attacking attitudes and tactics, not ideologies.

Exactly. Are you really so dense as to not be able to get the point, Sam?

You are attempting to use your willingness to employ bad strategy as a way of “proving” that you are to Amanda’s left. That’s why, when she criticized your views, you thought she was “pissing leftward.” But actually, her criticism does nothing to help us determine which one of you is more of a “pure” progressive.

Read the last paragraph of post 173 again. I don’t know how to make this more clear.

To give an example, I disagree with typist’s defense of the Pottery Barn rule. I suspect that I am in agreement with the “purists” here on a great many issues. I would even support a primary challenge to Obama IF a credible challenger emerged. But what I would NOT do is pretend that announcing a spiteful and insignificant protest vote for a conservative is going to cause establishment Democrats to think more highly of my point of view.

 

Comment #216: Kurt Horner  on  08/15  at  06:06 PM

I’m kind of amazed that political purity seems like a more heated subject than prostitution or unreciprocated oral sex. The internetz never cease to amaze. Anyways I’m 100% with Amanda on this one. A protest vote for Bachmann? seriously?

Comment #217: ArielNYC  on  08/15  at  06:13 PM

Crissa @ 211
everyone going on about the sky falling and purists:

What exactly are you doing to make sure that people who do want to vote for your candidate aren’t going to be voter suppressed out

I early voted in 2008 and it took me four hours—not a lot of people have cool day jobs that won’t penalize them for that. There were parts of Georgia where people waited eight hours to vote.

I already mentioned the state law in my state—what do you know about voting changes in your state?

Otherwise, keep blabbering about butthurt and purity trolls, and oppressed minorities and women and the Supreme Court and Roe v. Wade and the wars, it’s not going to make a whit of difference in the end.

Comment #218: Shakti  on  08/15  at  06:18 PM

@ 208

Sam, you forgot Libya, Yemen, and the War on (some people who use) Drugs. Good times.

Comment #219: vitaminC  on  08/15  at  06:32 PM

There is a considerable difference between a “protest vote” for a third party more in line with your politics (say, Nader in 2000) and a spite vote for what is likely far worse than the candidate you’re protesting (say, Bachman in 2012). I might not agree with the former, but unlike some other folks here I find it a respectable, even rational, position. But to vote out of spite is simply infantile.

The difference is simple. The votes for Nader in 2000 were a measurable protest against the status quo. A vote for Bachman/Perry/etc in 2012 is not identifiable as a protest except in the voter’s own mind.

Comment #220: weirdnoise  on  08/15  at  06:32 PM

Not voting for Obama because his policy sucks ass and he’s a worthless human being that apparently only pretends to feel empathy is not.

“Worthless human being”? Seriously?

Did Barack Obama personally come to your house this morning and shit into your bowl of Cheerios while his Secret Service detail forced you to watch?

Look, I’m not gonna argue your point that Obama’s policies suck ass, because I actually agree with you to some extent. But don’t you think your little “worthless human being” rant makes you sound rather deranged? If I wanted to hear the opinions of Sean Hannity or Ann Coulter about what sort of person President Obama is, I would read their blogs and listen to their programs. It’s not too often that I come to this blog and find people who identify as progressives utilizing the exact same nasty sort of ad hominem attacks on a Democratic president that assholes like Michael Savage built their careers on.

In your effort to write the most insanely over the top comment posted in this entire thread, you’ve done a stellar job of convincing me that you are actually Rush Limbaugh writing as a sockpuppet.

Bravo.

Comment #221: DTGslu2K  on  08/15  at  06:35 PM

Cool!  Now I’m an idiot, too.  Also, true.  I never pretend to be drenched in Genius Dust.  On the other hand, you ought to not put words in people’s mouths or pretend they said something they didn’t, Crissa.  That’s just bad manners.

“If you’re not going to vote, shut the fuck up.  If you don’t vote, the people who do will choose for you.  And in 2010 you saw who they chose.  So don’t being a complete idiot.”

Yeah, I’ve heard that song before too.  I’m not going to vote AND I’m not going to shut up.  There, take that.  Now psychoanalyze me quick.

“Citizens United!  The sky is falling!  Blah blah blah Gore cakes.”  Eleven years later and still having conniptions over Gore.  Mind you, I voted for Gore, not that it made a difference.  When push came to shove, before Bush had taken office or appointed a single justice, the Supreme Court halted the recount in Florida and anointed Bush president.  But Citizens United blah blah blah Gore cakes.

Comment #222: DBK  on  08/15  at  06:38 PM

Where did all these ignorant-of-logic Pandabaggers come from? Why do Pandabaggers even exist? And what the fuck is wrong with you?

I have felt very strongly for years that if you don’t vote, you should SHUT THE FUCK UP about politics. If you’re not going to vote for Obama (assuming he isn’t successfully primaried from the left), then you’re ceding your vote to someone who will vote for the fucking lunatics on the other side. I’ve gotten into this argument before here. If the option is to compromise and get some of what you want (even if it does mean occasionally retreating on an issue and come back fighting later) vs. letting everything go to hell, you’re an idiot, and I do not want you on my side, because you’re no better than libertarians, teabaggers, and communists—just political fundamentalists throwing a self-destructive temper tantrum.

Comment #223: BrianX  on  08/15  at  06:39 PM

The problem with Obama, and most other Democratic politicians/operatives,  is that, in my opinion they’re WAY too patriotic.

It’s simple. Obama thought that if he acted all bipartisan, then even if the opposition opposed him root and branch, then the public would basically rise up and he would gain massive amounts of support blah blah blah. Didn’t happen. Turns out that all the talk about wanting comity and cooperation is basically bullshit. People don’t want that. They want strong arguments. They respect strong arguments, both left and right. Strong argument get people out to the polls, really.

And also what Shakti said. Democrats have a HUGE disadvantage in terms of the actual structure of elections in terms of time off and lineups and margins of error.

Comment #224: Karmakin  on  08/15  at  06:41 PM

I’m kind of amazed that political purity seems like a more heated subject than prostitution or unreciprocated oral sex.

You’ve forgotten what the prostitution and unreciprocated oral sex threads read like. smile

Comment #225: Dilan Esper  on  08/15  at  06:42 PM

Amanda @213.  I’m trying kid.  I’m trying.

vitaminC @219:  you forgot the war on online poker players.  Those are really scary people.  Gotta slam them and the pot smokers.

Comment #226: DBK  on  08/15  at  06:42 PM

“I have felt very strongly for years that if you don’t vote, you should SHUT THE FUCK UP about politics.”

That non sequitur followed a comment on everyone else’s lack of logic.  Shit.  I’m starting to like this place again.  It’s funnier than a Gilligan’s Island marathon.

Comment #227: DBK  on  08/15  at  06:45 PM

Janet Rhodes appears to be under the illusion that Barack Obama occupying the White House is a deterrent to Republican’s ongoing destruction of this country. Obama’s the best of both worlds for Republicans. They get to proceed full speed ahead with their agenda and have someone to blame it on. I don’t know why they even bother to run a candidate against him. They should concede the election to him.

Comment #228: Frank White  on  08/15  at  06:46 PM

Why do we let these trolls like judybrowni @159 here?

Here entire post is based upon lies and Republican positions.  I don’t care who she is, just that she comes back here and lies repeatedly.  Democrats didn’t provide jobs?  What system of government does she think we have?  Obama is running for Republicans to win so she’s going to support Republicans winning?  WTF kind of fucked up logic is that?

Comment #229: Crissa  on  08/15  at  06:49 PM

Yep, that war on poker and pot smokers.

Oh, wait, Obama hasn’t actually done anything on these issues.  In fact, under his administration, the feds have stopped raiding state-legalized clubs!  Wow!

But then again, to DBK, not voting gives him the right to come and fuck around and lie about stuff that’s going on.  Nevermind the fucking reality.

Comment #230: Crissa  on  08/15  at  06:52 PM

Yeah, you tell ‘em, Crissa.  Why let those opposing viewpoints in here?  Why don’t you tell her to STFU, Crissa?  That’ll teach her.

judybrowni, you’re a troll an I’m an idiot.  If I weren’t married, I’d suggest we get together and call ourselves “an institute”.

I was walking down the street
When I thought I heard this voice say
Say, ain’t we walking down the same street together
On the very same day
I said hey Senorita that’s astute
I said why don’t we get together
And call ourselves an institute

Comment #231: DBK  on  08/15  at  06:55 PM

Sorry, vitaminC @219. It’s the butthurt.  Affects the memory.

That’s why, when she criticized your views, you thought she was “pissing leftward.”

But that’s the point, ain’t it, Mr. Kurt Horner?  She wasn’t criticizing ‘my views’.  She was criticizing a Straw Man built out of an extreme, cherry-picked example.  Hence the ‘pissing’ reference.

But what I would NOT do is pretend that announcing a spiteful and insignificant protest vote for a conservative is going to cause establishment Democrats to think more highly of my point of view.

See, now you’re doing it, too.  Even if we assume that Janet Rhodes is full of shit, and I don’t know the woman, so I can’t say for sure, what the hell does her extreme example have to do with me?  Nada.  What does it have to do with Nader voters in 2000?  Even less.

I have never voted out of protest.  I have never voted for the ‘lesser of two evils.’  I have always voted for the candidate I thought was best for the job.  Period.  In 2000 that was Nader.  In 2008 it was Cynthia McKinney.  Don’t like it?  You’re welcome to your opinion.  You’re welcome to speculate about my mental health.  You’re also welcome to go fuck yourself.

I do not buy chum’s rationalization (@207) that voting for the marginal preservation of rights to which we are barely clinging is a short-term tactic to long-term victory.  To me it reads like a thin coat of rational sobriety painted on a jalopy of looney-tunes chickenshit.  Still, it may be that chum is correct, and that Amanda is correct, at least insofar as voting for Obama—no matter how diminished the returns—is the best option for 2012.  In that case, we truly are fucked (long term and short) and this entire discussion is moot.

Comment #232: Sam Holloway  on  08/15  at  06:57 PM

And fuck you, Shakti, since I didn’t personally come and help you fucking vote, you’re not going to vote?

My old polling place was eliminated, even though there was a line twenty- to fifty strong all day; and we aren’t even allowed to vote nearby; they now have to drive to the county seat or get vote-by-mail months in advance.  Luckily, I moved into white-person land where there’s no line and they county voted to pay so that they must prepare enough paper ballots so that everyone in each precinct could choose to vote on paper and they wouldn’t run out of ballots - like my old precinct in the quasi-slum.

I need to personally help you vote?  What sort of crack are you on?

Comment #233: Crissa  on  08/15  at  06:57 PM

Although as a resident of California—which will always go Democratic anyway in a Presidential election—I’ve been told my vote doesn’t “count.”

The years 1968, 1972, 1976, 1980, 1984, and 1988 disagree with that assumption. The father of our last president defeated Michael Dukakis for California’s 53 electoral votes just a little more than 20 years ago.

True, California is a considerably stronger Democratic stronghold today than it was in the 1980s and prior, but it isn’t so far removed from being a swing state that it could never be in play again. Californians did vote for Arnold Schwarzenegger TWICE in the past decade (granted he’s a little more to the center than most of his fellow wingnuts), and just three years ago they voted to take away marriage rights from same-sex couples. The blue sea of California is a little more purple than it is generally perceived to be. [[Orange County, cough cough.]]

Having said all of that, I don’t expect California to be in play next year, and if it is, then say hello to President Perry/Romney.

I’m actually a bit torn about Rick Perry’s candidacy. On the one hand, I think he would be much easier for President Obama to defeat than Mitt Romney, who at least appears to be somewhat moderate to low info voters. On the other hand, I fear that if the economy is as lousy as it very well could be, Perry could win despite being a frightening extremist wingnut. It’s naive to think that Americans can’t be swayed to make an irrational choice if unemployment is still over 9% next November. Obama’s re-election is far from guaranteed to happen at this point, as much as it scares me to admit that.

Comment #234: DTGslu2K  on  08/15  at  06:58 PM

DBK:

One vote doesn’t count for much, but as failed GOTV efforts like 2010 show, that “not much” is still more than nothing.

From a statistical standpoint, I think a pretty good case has been made of how destructive voting for Nader in a swing state was in 2000. But that’s not what I’m talking about. Even someone who threw their vote away on a spoiler candidate still had their voice heard, and as far as I’m concerned, they can say whatever they want, however insane it might be. But look at anarchists, at least the ones that think they’re making a point by not voting—I can’t take them seriously at all because they’re essentially telling the system they don’t care. They don’t think so, of course, but they’re fundamentalists too.

Comment #235: BrianX  on  08/15  at  07:00 PM

Re: Comment #222: DBK on 08/15 at 06:38 PM

Blah blah Citizens United?

Shut the fuck up.  I mean, honestly.  You’re completely fucking without use here.  You voted for Gore, but that vote was taken away, so you’re going to crawl into an empty corner and let them win?

You’re the one saying that voting for Obama has no utility.  I gave you an example.  You said, and I quote exactly, “blah blah blah.”

Fuck the fuck off.  What utility is your continued lifting of fingers that you won’t lift a finger?

Comment #236: Crissa  on  08/15  at  07:03 PM

(Exception: politically active ex-cons who can’t vote. But they can certainly work as activists and have their voices heard by proxy.)

Comment #237: BrianX  on  08/15  at  07:06 PM

Re: Comment #193: cronopio on 08/15 at 05:01 PM

That’s just the thing- I’m not “signing on” to anything.  My expectations for Obama were very low.  But he’s better than McCain.  I didn’t vote to join his fan club; I voted based on the fact that McCain supports more stuff that I don’t.  DADT for one.  And staying home on election day is not an option- my state has ballot measures that matter to me.  So since I’m there already, it would be the height of silliness to think that me refusing to take the extra 2 seconds to fill in the bubble next to Obama is going to cause Obama to rethink his policies.  He’s termed out after 2012 anyway.

Comment #238: Satanicpanic  on  08/15  at  07:07 PM

Or perhaps, just perhaps, there are more conservative voters than liberal ones.

No. There are not more conservative voters than there are liberal voters. There are more WEALTHY conservative voters than there are wealthy liberal voters. The ballot box is supposed to be the equalizing force in our elections, the place where no matter how poor you might be, your vote counts every bit as much as the vote of someone like David Koch. What a decision like Citizens United does is give the rich the right to spend as much money as they want to try to influence people’s votes via misinformation and fear-mongering, something that the non-rich don’t have the economic means to effectively combat. It’s not illegal to lie your ass off to the public in an effort to get a corporate boot-licker elected, regardless of how disgustingly unethical such tactics are. For those with a conservative agenda, they believe that the ends ALWAYS justify the means, regardless of how shamelessly offensive those means might be (hello, Willie Horton and the Swiftboaters).

As MSNBC’s Dylan Ratigan angrily pointed out last week in an epic rant, our Congress does not act in accordance with the will of the people, it acts in accordance with the will of the rich people, a group that makes up a microscopic portion of the electorate.

Comment #239: DTGslu2K  on  08/15  at  07:27 PM

Well, you can vote for Kang or you can vote for Kodos…

Comment #240: chuckling  on  08/15  at  07:31 PM

How does one distinguish a ‘victory that is less than complete’ from, say, a loss?  Along those lines, if one is given the choice between a loss and a worse loss, is it a sign of mental imbalance to try and seek at least a third option?

It’s a sign that one is childishly refusing to accept the cold reality of the system that we have when they cast a futile vote for a third party candidate who has a better chance of winning Powerball than they do of actually getting elected president. You might not be a vegetarian, but if you go out to the newest vegetarian restaurant with your friends and then demand a porterhouse steak from the waiter, you’re probably going to get some strange looks. Vote for the Green Party presidential candidate if you want. Just don’t try to tell me that your vote will do anything to get the most left-leaning viable candidate elected to the presidency. And don’t try to tell me that Elena Kagan = Samuel Alito, either.

Comment #241: DTGslu2K  on  08/15  at  07:43 PM

@233 Crissa

Try reading again for the comprehension you’ve obviously flunked. It’s not a good idea to accuse people of being on crack who are obviously more lucid than yourself, especially minority women.  It is a relevant question no matter how much you dislike it.

Crissa @ 211
everyone going on about the sky falling and purists:
What exactly are you doing to make sure that people who do want to vote for your candidate aren’t going to be voter suppressed out

Notice “the people who do want to vote for your candidate”, grudgingly or enthusiastically.  I’ve voted in every single election since I was old enough to vote. Go condescend to someone else.

Voter suppression is real, quite aside from my feelings or yours about any of the candidates. I’m not even sure what state you’re in. I’ve already told you about my particular state.  What are you doing or what do you know about voting in your particular state? Those Republican super-majorities have moved swiftly to make it much more difficult to vote.

I notice that nothing in that rant included any such efforts on your part to GOTV or past efforts of yours to GOTV—which btw, I have done, for Obama.  And I’ve gotten people to their polling place, and helped them figure out who to vote for in mayoral and local elections.  You are flouncing about in the outrage you accuse me and others of indulging in.  Stomping your foot about me isn’t going to do a damn thing.

Comment #242: Shakti  on  08/15  at  08:04 PM

58 more comments needed before midnight.

Comment #243: ayutokamina  on  08/15  at  08:09 PM

I think we can do it folks!!

Comment #244: atheist  on  08/15  at  08:11 PM

From Sam @232:

She wasn’t criticizing ‘my views’.  She was criticizing a Straw Man built out of an extreme, cherry-picked example.  Hence the ‘pissing’ reference.

Yeah, you don’t share that type of view . . . which is why you’re defending it so strongly. Right . . .

If you were just objecting to a “straw man” why did you say she was pissing leftward which clearly implies that her objection is based on her being less progressive than you?

I have never voted out of protest.  I have never voted for the ‘lesser of two evils.’  I have always voted for the candidate I thought was best for the job.

So what? How you voted, or will vote, doesn’t matter. What matters is that you think it does matter, and are outraged when informed of this reality.

Still, it may be that chum is correct, and that Amanda is correct, at least insofar as voting for Obama—no matter how diminished the returns—is the best option for 2012.  In that case, we truly are fucked (long term and short) and this entire discussion is moot.

Ah, I see. You want to believe that voting will get you exactly what you want—and if it can’t, then success is impossible. Therefore, in your world, anyone who criticizes your voting tactics is surrendering to the forces of evil.

There’s a widespread fantasy that voting has ever, in the history of the world, produced meaningful social change. It has not. So why vote, and to what end? Simply put, when people are really angry and marching in the streets, do you want the government’s response to be reform or martial law? I want the former. Democrats are more likely to deliver the former. Therefore, no matter how stupid politics gets in this country—you vote Democratic. That’s not the ONLY thing you do—there’s plenty of protest and activism and advocacy to do in the meantime. But when that barely meaningful civic act of voting comes around, you vote for the candidate least likely to shoot you like a dog when one of those great moments of history comes along.

Comment #245: Kurt Horner  on  08/15  at  08:14 PM

This is what Nader was talking about when he used to talk about how there isn’t any difference between the parties.

Please tell me with a straight face that you actually believe Roberts + Alito = Sotomayor + Kagan. Or that Lily Ledbetter or DADT repeal would have been signed into law by President McCain.

A “D” is a pretty shitty grade to get. But it’s still objectively preferable to an “F”, no matter how much you try to argue that there isn’t any real difference between a “D” and an “F”. At no point has Amanda or anyone else here insisted that not only do you have to enthusiastically support Obama next year, but that you also must refrain from making any criticisms of his presidency. There are a ton of things to criticize about Obama’s presidency. Personally, I’ve found myself extremely underwhelmed and disappointed by Obama the president when I think back to Obama the candidate.

And yet…

For all of the valid disappointment that you, I, or anyone else might feel about the Obama presidency thus far, objectively speaking, his re-election next year will be unambiguously less harmful to the cause of progressivism than the election of his opponent would be. No matter how much you try to deny that a “D” is objectively better than an “F”, it doesn’t change the fact that a “D” is objectively better than an “F”. If you’re so unhappy with the Obama presidency right now that you refuse to vote for him, I hope that you’re prepared to be downright miserable should Rick Perry or Mitt Romney move into the Oval Office 17 months from now. You’ll be pining for Obama within the first six months of the Goodhair Administration. You’re not going to make your upset stomach feel better by smashing your hand with a hammer.

Comment #246: DTGslu2K  on  08/15  at  08:14 PM

I’ve been “told” my vote didn’t count in Presidential elections because California usually swings for the Democrat.

However, I never took my vote for granted, and was appalled during the 2000 election when I heard the “both parties are the same” meme, and Nader supporters, including at the local left wing weekly.

Well, we all saw how that turned out.

Unfortunately, I’m too well-read to be an Obamabot—or to vote Green or Nader or Ron Paul.

So, I’m accused of being a troll, ah well.

As for Obama and jobs, since the beginning of his administration there were calls for the Democratic Congress and President: a job corp of some sort that could be used to repair the crumbling infrastructure in the country (some of which last saw repair, or replacement, since the WPA projects in the ‘30s.)

However, the Republicans could run, falsely, on “jobs” for 2010 because Obama and the Democratic Congress. seemed to avoid anything helpful that would smack of goverment intervention. Including a strong enough stimilus.

The “austerity” the Administration has so gleefully jumped on the band wagon for (or offered to cut up on the surgical table themselves) is, every sane economist points, unlikely to do anything to increase jobs—no less middle class jobs—in fact will likely cut them from the public sector.

And from what I’ve read, the upcoming Administration mishegas labeled a “jobs” bill mainly offers up business tax cuts, because that’s worked so well up to this point.

No, the Republicans have done nothing themselves: but the Obama Administration inaction will allow them to run again on “jobs” and the “economy” in the next election.

“Jobs” aren’t mere abstractions, talking points, or a label to be smacked on something to make it appear to be shiny.

After a 30 year career in retail, in which he worked himself up from minimum wage to a six figure salary (10 years and 17 years, in his last two jobs) my brother has been out of work for nearly two years.

His unemployment insurance has run out, the COBRA for his health insurance, also. He’s 58 years old and in a two year training for a new career, which he hopes to spend a decade in, before he can retire.

His partner is on Social Security, they hope to be able to keep the house.

Their best friends had a business once booming, which was just barely hanging in there the last couple years, but now must be folded, and they are being forced to sell their house.

One of them has work he can do in his own small business, the other doesn’t: their both in their late 50s: where is he supposed to find work?

I’m also in a line of work where, every week I have to hear the stories of those whose businesses are about to fold (including a GP), did fold, who have lost their homes, or their jobs, are living in their cars, for the first time in their lives.

Formerly middle-class and working people.

The Obama Administration may not have created this problem, but they haven’t done enough to stem the bleeding, by anyone’s assessment, including when they controlled Congress.

And I’m not the only one pointing out that the Democratic politicians may be continuing to follow a suicidal course, if they want to be re-elected.

 

 

 

Comment #247: judybrowni  on  08/15  at  08:16 PM

And again, for the millionth time, I’ve voted Democratic for 40 fucking years.

Comment #248: judybrowni  on  08/15  at  08:26 PM

Just don’t try to tell me that your vote will do anything to get the most left-leaning viable candidate elected to the presidency.

Ah, so now we get to the ‘viability’ meme.  At long last.  In other words, if my chosen candidate doesn’t get the countless millions in corporate and wealthy donations, and relies on little more than small individual donations and the activism of butthurt, pie-in-the-sky dirty hippies who pounded the pavement to get their candidate on the ballot in 50 states, then she can’t be considered viable, and she isn’t worthy of serious consideration.  This must be what placing ‘attitudes and tactics’ above ‘ideology’ means.  Voting for a candidate who gives you a marginal benefit over the candidate you’re supposed to fear and despise is the correct ‘tactic,’ even if that benefit is markedly devalued from the last time you did the same fucking thing.  Posing as though that is the grown-up and rational thing to do is the correct ‘attitude.’  I’m not holding my breath for a decent explanation of what ‘ideology’ is worth a wet pile of shit after being run through that ass-backward, entropy-on-steroids process.

Newsflash: shit like NAFTA (signed by a Dem president) and the repeal of Glass-Steagall (same) wind up hurting working people.  The refusal of Democrats to fight for working people’s interests, and their penchant for instead looking out for their corporate backers first, is what leads to voter apathy and feeding frenzies for billionaire-backed right-wing GOTV stunts like the teabaggers.  That’s your lesser of two evils right there.

In reality, a vote for Obama in 2008 was a protest vote.  It wasn’t a vote for anything, unless you really like watching Oprah cry maudlin tears of joy in public.  It was a vote against the Bush Republicans and the cosmic insult that was the McCain/Palin ticket.  What the fuck is Hope™?  Where the fuck is the Change™?  We’ve still got illegal wars and occupations; banks and casino capitalists laughing as they light their cigars with taxpayer bailout dollars; assaults on civil liberties; etc.  But hey, now gay people can go and kill innocent people and die in Obama’s wars.  Sort of.  That’s what I call progress.

(If I seem a little surly about this issue, it might be the aforementioned butthurt.  It might also be that Obama’s former chief of staff, one of the architects of the 2010 teabagger nationwide landslide, is now my mayor.  He is a neoliberal, banker-friendly, hedge fund Democrat who bashes union teachers and city workers and parties with Hollywood millionaires and casino capitalist billionaires.  He’s peddling union-busting charter schools as a solution to our TIF-induced education budget crisis, but he’s sending his own kids to a tony private school.  Thanks, Sensible Liberals, for electing him.  Thanks so much.)

Comment #249: Sam Holloway  on  08/15  at  08:49 PM

A “D” is a pretty shitty grade to get. But it’s still objectively preferable to an “F”...

So that’s what this is about?  Trashing people because they’re not content to aspire to a “D”?  Given that formulation, I gladly accept being called petulant, whiny, immature, unrealistic, foolish, etc.  Even if you have to use a Straw Man and a bullshit argument to do it.  Fine, I’ll take those labels, and I’ll wear them with pride.  Because by any moral calculation all of them rolled in together beats being a smug, self-satisfied coward, even one who’s got millions for company.  The really fucked-up thing is that you’re probably going to get another four years of Obama, and you’ll have already convinced yourself that it’s a good thing.

Comment #250: Sam Holloway  on  08/15  at  08:57 PM

I’m curious about those who are taking the full on “we must vote for Obama as the lesser of two evils” position here:

Is there NOTHING that Obama could do that would be a dealbreaker?

Here’s what I was adverting to earlier. Suppose one of the liberals on the Supreme Court retires or dies and in order to get a nomination through in an election year and get some economic stimulus passed Obama makes a deal with the Republicans to nominate a pro-life Supreme Court justice?

Would you still vote for him in 2012?

And if your answer is “of course not” (as mine would be), do you understand that other voters might have different dealbreakers (especially on the issue of warfare) than you do?

Comment #251: Dilan Esper  on  08/15  at  08:59 PM

Turns out that all the talk about wanting comity and cooperation is basically bullshit. People don’t want that. They want strong arguments. They respect strong arguments, both left and right. Strong argument get people out to the polls, really.

“When people feel uncertain, they’d rather have somebody that’s strong and wrong than somebody who’s weak and right.”

—Bill Clinton

He certainly wasn’t my favorite president ever, but he’s probably one of the most politically brilliant minds we’ve ever had in the White House.

The biggest mistake Obama can make between now and next November is assuming that the electorate will choose him solely on the basis that he seems like the more sane choice. He needs to fight, and if he doesn’t fight, he very likely will be a one-term president. There’s plenty of time to change course, but he needs to shift the trajectory in such a way that he becomes just as obstinate as Republicans on some core issues rather than always seeking their support by giving them the farm.

If he allows the deficit commission to enact a plan that will directly harm those who currently depend on and will soon depend on Medicaid, Medicare, and Social Security, he’s toast. He’s going to have to draw a line in the sand at some point, because if he keeps trying to get Mitch McConnell and John Boehner to be his buddies, they’re just going to lead him off the cliff. McConnell specifically said his number one objective was to get President Obama voted out in 2012, and the president would be wise to take McConnell’s word for it. He ignores that threat at his own peril.

Comment #252: DTGslu2K  on  08/15  at  09:04 PM

@ Comment #238: Satanicpanic  on  08/15  at  07:07 PM

Re: Comment #193: cronopio on 08/15 at 05:01 PM
That’s just the thing- I’m not “signing on” to anything.  My expectations for Obama were very low.  But he’s better than McCain.  I didn’t vote to join his fan club; I voted based on the fact that McCain supports more stuff that I don’t.  DADT for one.  And staying home on election day is not an option- my state has ballot measures that matter to me.  So since I’m there already, it would be the height of silliness to think that me refusing to take the extra 2 seconds to fill in the bubble next to Obama is going to cause Obama to rethink his policies.  He’s termed out after 2012 anyway.

Comment #238: Satanicpanic  on  08/15  at  07:07 PM

By all means, let’s make sure we don’t read what others have written and think about what they write and thoughtfully respond - otherwise we might start to have arguments that make sense.

First of all, where did I say that I was planning to stay home on election day? I didn’t - but sure, it’s a lot easier to make your point if you just make up what someone you disagree with says.

I know it’s hard to believe, but some people might make judgments that are different from yours. Until we have a well disciplined party with a consistent ideology that I can support you will have to excuse me if I don’t follow Democratic “liberal” responsible, orthodoxy. Or no, of course you don’t have to excuse me - but perhaps you could accept that your world view is not a priori the only valid one. Or not.

Vote for Obama over McCain - if that’s what seems like the best decision to you. Nobody is accusing you of being in Obama’s fan club - who the hell cares about Obama? He’s either a good vessel for implementing things you support or not. I would argue - and my analysis is applied to me, not you - that the tea party is a great exemplar of exerting significant political influence by not enabling what they don’t support.

But, I repeat, that’s me - others will do as they think best.

Comment #253: cronopio  on  08/15  at  09:20 PM

Two and a half more hours for self-important butthurt to drive this thread over 300.  C’mon, folks, it’s all about you!  You can do it!

Comment #254: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/15  at  09:24 PM

For me, its not really Obama that I’ve lost “faith” in, so much as democracy as a whole as long as corporations are “people”, and “people” way more powerful, influential and straight up harmful than actual human beings.

Yes.  This is exactly, but exactly, how I feel.  I don’t have any faith in the US’s political process.  It’s a shell game, where the corporations win every single time.

By the way, for those of you bemoaning the Nader voters in 2000: the push to vote for Nader was not only about registering a protest vote.  It was significantly about putting together enough voters, percentage-wise, to get the Green Party to qualify for federal campaign funds, as I recall, and thus bring them somewhat closer to that cherished “viability” I hear so much about.  It wasn’t the Nader voters who somehow forced Gore to concede, not to fight the various rulings.  That was him.  Nor was it the Nader voters who advised Gore to distance himself from the wildly popular Clinton during his election campaign.  That was also himself.

As to whether we would have gotten Citizens United with Gore and Kerry—yes, I think we would have, actually.  Gore has been dancing to a much more liberal tune since losing the election than he ever did before; do you really think he’d be such a liberal eco-guy if he had won the presidency?  The office sure did conservatize Obama quickly.

As to not having a voice if I don’t vote—please spare me the fifth-grade civics rhetoric.  I don’t have a voice when I do vote. 

There’s a huge leap from simply acknowledging your mortality to accepting that you have ZERO control over it.

Exactly.  Of course I’m going to die someday.  And of course I have some control over when and how.  That’s why, given that I’m fortunate enough, due to a whole host of circumstances over which I had no control as well as a certain set of decisions over which I did have control, to have decent health insurance, I take advantage of it and take my meds regularly, for instance.  There are all kinds of things to do that give one a measure of control over one’s own mortality.  Only if you define control as an all-or-nothing situation do you have absolutely no control over your own mortality.

Comment #255: EG01  on  08/15  at  09:26 PM

“As to whether we would have gotten Citizens United with Gore and Kerry—yes, I think we would have, actually.”
Comment #255: EG01

I’m not so sure about that.  We would have had a different SCOTUS if Gore had been elected in 2000.  Whether or not we would have though doesn’t really matter.  We have to live in the present that our past has made for us and work on the future we want in the present.  We can’t go forward or backward in time to see how things might be or might have been.  We make our decisions and take our chances.  I’d rather take a chance that Obama won’t appoint a justice who is anti-choice as to accept the certainty of a Republican president who will. 

I’ve posted four times on this thread which may be more than I’ve ever posted on any one thread on this blog.  My butt is beginning to hurt though, so good night and best wishes for that 300th post.

Comment #256: G Porgey  on  08/15  at  09:37 PM

@ Amanda Marcotte, #254

Two and a half more hours for self-important butthurt to drive this thread over 300.  C’mon, folks, it’s all about you!  You can do it!

Comment #254: Amanda Marcotte on 08/15 at 09:24 PM

Oh - I’m sorry.

I originally wandered over from Eschaton because I found the gender and cultural viewpoint provocative and refreshing. And the food blogging is quite fine - and a great way to access “bigger” political points in something as quotidian as food.

But your comment above is not only smug, it is deliberately and gratuitously mean-spirited. You open a dialog, people respond, articulately or not, some with reason, some with invective, some with confusion - and you just mock all of it, all of the conversation you started, with petty, vindictive holier than though snark. But hey it’s your sandbox.

Again, sorry, I thought this was meant to be a conversation. Won’t bother you folks again.

Comment #257: cronopio  on  08/15  at  09:44 PM

So that’s what this is about?  Trashing people because they’re not content to aspire to a “D”?

No, it’s about calling out smug assholes like you who continue to insist that “D” = “F”, despite all evidence to the contrary. As I’ve already stated numerous times in this thread, I think the feelings of disappointment by progressives towards Obama ARE ENTIRELY VALID AND WARRANTED. Nobody is expecting you or anybody else to be “content to aspire to a ‘D’”. What those of us on the opposite side of your viewpoint are trying to tell you is that it doesn’t matter how much you want a candidate like “A” to win, because in the incredibly flawed two-party system in which our elections operate, either “D” will get re-elected, or “F” will defeat “D” and become the 45th POTUS. You can vote for “A”, “B”, or “C” if you want, or even choose not to vote at all in the presidential election, but you and I both know that around 10PM on November 6, 2012, the networks will either be declaring “D” or “F” the winner, and those are the only two possible outcomes we will see.

So if you’re so disgusted with “D” that you absolutely refuse to vote for him or worse, vote for “F” out of sheer spite, that’s your prerogative. Just realize that you look like a clown when you try to make the empirically false assertion that “D” is no different than “F” in regard to the progressive agenda. You and I both know that as milquetoast as Al Gore might have been in 2000, there’s simply no rational argument that can be made that he would have led us down as destructive a path as his opponent ultimately did. You and I both know that as bad off as we might be under the Obama presidency, we’d be even worse off under the McCain (or Discoball forbid, Palin) presidency right now.

Having to accept the fact that the best outcome we can have for the 2012 presidential election is the re-election of our center-right DLC Democratic president sucks ass, but it is what it is. Either Obama is going to get re-elected, or someone who is undeniably worse than Obama is going to get elected, end of story. I don’t like it either, but I accept it, because that’s what’s gonna happen regardless of how I feel about it. I will use whatever tiny amount of influence I have to prevent the worse outcome from happening, even if it means settling for a decidedly disappointing alternative.

Comment #258: DTGslu2K  on  08/15  at  09:46 PM

In the interest of progress to 300 and general drama I’ll say something really offensive I’m not really feeling. I guess its nice that scraps from the master’s table are good enough for some people. With feminists like you who needs mysoginists trollol

Comment #259: pharmakos  on  08/15  at  09:48 PM

I live in a state with a tea party governor and a Democratic legislature.  Martinez has done enough damage as it is. The things will get worse before it gets better is insane.

Comment #260: PatrickNM  on  08/15  at  09:52 PM

As to whether we would have gotten Citizens United with Gore and Kerry—yes, I think we would have, actually.

Not necessarily. William Rehnquist didn’t retire, he died, so unless you believe that he could have actually willed himself into not dying in 2005 while Gore or Kerry were in the White House, I think it’s safe to assume that President Gore/Kerry would have chosen someone decidedly less conservative than John Roberts to replace him.

The most significant elements of Citizens United were decided by a 5-4 ruling. Take Roberts’ vote away from the conservative majority and replace it with the opinion of a more liberal jurist and the outcome very well might have been quite different.

Comment #261: DTGslu2K  on  08/15  at  09:59 PM

Just what was “fundamental transformation of America” supposed to mean?

Comment #262: faiimuden  on  08/15  at  10:02 PM

Re: Conoprio

This thread is about whether or not staying home is a defensible option.  You said you’re not happy enough with Obama to support him.  If that means something other than not voting for him then fine.  I voted for him knowing that the best I could hope for was that things wouldn’t get much worse.  Sometimes we’re not in a position to be on offense. 

And sometimes there aren’t other options.  At least since Nader (and for decades before that) the left has had the chance to propose something other than quixotic ideas like primary challenges and third parties candidates (both of which have been tried and neither of which have worked).  The left hasn’t done it.  And we’re weaker than we’ve ever been.  So if you have a plan, share it.  I would love to consider it.  Until then, I’ll consider my world view a priori the right one.

Comment #263: Satanicpanic  on  08/15  at  10:06 PM

I couldn’t help noticing that the second link posted goes to the blog of a person who tweeted to Joan Walsh that after 2012, black people will stop voting for Democrats for at least a generation.

Comment #264: Plantsmantx  on  08/15  at  10:17 PM

Here’s what I was adverting to earlier. Suppose one of the liberals on the Supreme Court retires or dies and in order to get a nomination through in an election year and get some economic stimulus passed Obama makes a deal with the Republicans to nominate a pro-life Supreme Court justice?

Well, what’d we get in the deal?

Honestly, I’d probably still vote for him in a general election against any current Republican I can think of. He’d still be better. I don’t see why this is controversial. George W. Bush was not president that long ago. But I’d say that’s a primaryable offense.

Which brings up another better focus for lefty rage against Obama. As protests go, primarying him might not be the smartest thing, but it’s a damn sight better than voting Republican or just not voting.

Comment #265: witless chum  on  08/15  at  10:24 PM

I hate that I’m so late to this thread, but anyway:

Refusing to get involved and arguing with the epic levels of butthurt that were inevitable from this is going to be my daily practice in letting go of the illusion of control.  People are narcissistic for reasons outside of my reach—-I can’t control that.  I’ve said my piece.

Translation: “I knew that if I said something that’s really controversial and polarizing, that it would polarize and create controversy.” How unlike anything we “narcissists” would do. Not for nothing, Amanda, do you remind me of the unflappable types who reintroduce—rather drag us back into—the race/IQ debate every few years. They take the visceral reaction by the unsophisticated as a sign they must be on to something.

I can accept that the illusion of control is a real thing. What hasn’t been established is that there’s a particular breed of political animal uniquely prone to it, or that suffers from it more acutely than the rest (No florid, unyielding egos to be found among the Obamabots? I’d be quite surprised).  The problem with airy formulations like the “illusion of control” isn’t their falsity; it’s that they tend to be so general that trying to quibble with them is almost beside the point.  I mean, has “Relinquish control!” been at the top of anyone’s list of new, revolutionary, not-at-all-clichéd truisms since the late 80’s?

As a left-of-center African-American who’s grateful for every extra porkchop he’s ever gotten, I don’t need to be told that I can’t bend the world to my will. Neither do I think that the Art of Losing Gracefully is something on which the left needs anymore instruction. I’ve lived 35 years without a single payer healthcare system, and I’m prepared to go another 35. But I guess I’m just enough of a narcissist to rue the fact that the very idea of a greater government role in healthcare was, if anything, set back by whatever-the-fuck-that-was in ’09.

And that’s the problem with centrist Democrats, even those that might still be worth voting for: you often get the worst of both worlds. They’ll pass huge pieces of legislation that certainly look big, scary, and complex to the layperson, but that are also deeply conservative. It puts liberals, let alone leftists, in the awkward position of defending on principle “big government” initiatives they know probably aren’t going to work very well. If you’re going to whipsaw liberals into voting, at least let them gripe about the ulcers that kind of “exerting influence” is bound to give them.

It’s a bit intellectually shady, don’t you think, to act as if not a single soul among Obama’s detractors has ever spent years, decades, in the trenches of give-and-take electoral politics. Fuck, it’s not the really hard stuff that has some of us shaking our heads; it’s the rookie mistakes, the sheer banality of his missteps, the unforced errors. This was supposedly an 800-dimensional chess player who looked for all the world like the most naturally gifted politician since Reagan. Even a finesse fighter with no real knockout punch should have been able to hold the Repubs at bay a little longer. Yet here we are, with the idea of “fixing” Social Security thinkable now in a way that it wasn’t in 2005. It’s a ghastly record.

Of course I might not be giving Obama enough credit. His problem may not be ineptitude, but that the current disaster fuck of a Washington elite—center-right, right, far-right—provides him with the governing partners he’s happy to have, for whatever reason. That’s the spot he puts me in: the only way to respect him at all is to paint him in the worst possible light.

And I’ll say this about death: it’s fucking boring—as boring to some of us as these types of discussions. The fact that I live in a safe state means voting third party isn’t so consequential, but I know that others don’t feel they can take the risk, and that’s cool. Whatever the solution to the world’s problems, people giving up the illusion of control is probably a part of it—even a big one. Yes, Janet Rhodes needs to get a life. But enough of trying to make Obama’s considerations our own; it’s pure authoritarianism. Besides, no one here needs being told how much the GOP should be feared. Who’s telling him that?

 

Comment #266: Imani  on  08/15  at  10:49 PM

Crissa, sorry you’re so bummed about me saying publicly that I won’t vote for Obama.  Seems to have given you a massive hissy fit.

Poker:  http://www.cnbc.com/id/42649117/Insider_Breakdown_Of_Poker_s_Black_Friday

Pot:  http://dailycaller.com/2011/07/01/justice-department-and-obama-reverse-stance-on-medical-marijuana-raids/

Being uninformed is your own fault.  This is what has come from Obama’s Justice Department.  Not that Obama actually raided any pot clinics or shut down online poker sites, but the buck stops somewhere and all that.  His JD hasn’t made it a priority, and he has made it clear that he wants nothing done about the financial institutions that destroyed the US economy, but the pot smokers and poker players really burn his JD’s ass.

Comment #267: DBK  on  08/15  at  10:55 PM

I should say, “not that Obama has raided any pot clinics or shut down the online poker sites personally, like in showing up in a cape or something”.

Comment #268: DBK  on  08/15  at  10:56 PM

http://whatthefuckhasobamadonesofar.com/

I consider people who argue that there is no real difference between a Democratic president and a Republican one as fundamentally unserious. Someone who literally cannot think of one good thing that Obama has done strikes me as irrational.

So the stimulus was too small. The fact remains that because of this bill many people, including me, was able to get a job.

So health care reform wasn’t perfect. But millions of people who didn’t have access to health insurance before, including people with pre-existing disabilities, can now get past the threshold. And I don’t think anybody can seriously argue that free contraception for women is a bad thing.

Ending DADT may not be as same as recognizing same sex marriage in all 50 states but I tend to think that ending government discrimination in any form is a good thing. Extending federal benefits to same-sex couples in government and appointing openly gay officials may seem like crumbs to naysayers but they are tangible benefits to real people.

Can anyone argue that FEMA is not a better run organization that saves more lives under a Democratic administration than a Republican one?

The Republicans may be trying to guy the Consumer Protection Financial Bureau but at least someone is trying to look out for consumers. And once it does get off the ground I think real good can come out of it.

Reversing global gag rule for abortions. Passing Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act. Ending enhanced interrogations. Extensions of unemployment benefits. Better compensation and care for veterans. Saving the auto industry from collapse. Reforming student loan system. These may not be exciting, juicy victories to you but they are to the people who benefit from them.

Does anyone believe that any of this would have happened if John McCain or Rick Perry was President? Maybe in some respects Obama isn’t doing anything differently than what a Republican President would have done, especially on the foreign policy front. But in the other respects where he has done something differently to help many people or at least tried to help people who otherwise wouldn’t be helped… that’s a real difference to me.

I’m not saying that you have to vote for Obama because of these things. I’m saying that it would be nice if the people who hate Obama so much could acknowledge once in a while that he does accomplish good things. It’s one thing to argue that he isn’t doing enough good things or that he’s a bad negotiator or whatever. It’s another thing entirely to act like he hasn’t done anything good at all to improve the lives of the people in this country.

Comment #269: VincentN  on  08/15  at  11:00 PM

The American Left: combining hardnosed realism with self-destructive fuckwittery since the Gilded Age. There are a lot of you here that I’m truly ashamed to have on my side.

Comment #270: BrianX  on  08/15  at  11:09 PM

None of those things are good enough. Obama is a far right warmonger. Like Mussolini.

Comment #271: typist  on  08/15  at  11:18 PM

Dayum, nice half-Godwin there, typist grin

Comment #272: BrianX  on  08/15  at  11:22 PM

Is a Mussolini reference half a Godwin? I wonder what a Tojo comparison would be?

Anyway it was a sarcastic half-Godwin, but the screechingly hyperbolic rhetoric I see here all the time makes me think that’s a pretty accurate summation of some people’s feelings about Obama.

Comment #273: typist  on  08/15  at  11:32 PM

I love your blog.

Comment #274: natalia  on  08/15  at  11:36 PM

</Shameless post about nothing to help push this thread to Comment #300 prior to midnight. Are we talking Eastern, Central, Mountain, or Pacific time?>

Comment #275: DTGslu2K  on  08/15  at  11:38 PM

What time is it now?

Comment #276: faiimuden  on  08/15  at  11:47 PM

Typist:

Heh. I did notice the sarcasm (mainly because I reread your older postings so I knew how to respond) but yeah, I thoroughly agree, especially when it comes to the seemingly endless number of people who don’t know the difference between their totalitarianisms.

As for Tojo… Pretty close to a full Godwin considering some of the shit the Japanese did in China. No doubt their “scientists” had Josef Mengele on whatever passed for speed dial in those days.

Comment #277: BrianX  on  08/15  at  11:55 PM

Must mean midnight on Little Diomede island…

Comment #278: faiimuden  on  08/16  at  12:00 AM

Shit, midnight eastern time and 22 comments short. We can still make CST people, can progressives at least make a common cause of hating each other?

Comment #279: typist  on  08/16  at  12:01 AM

Well, we can still hit 300 if we go by US Central time…

Anyway. The solution to Obama’s frequent capitulations isn’t to take our ball home and defect to the far-right Republicans. That’s stupid. The real solution, as some have suggested upthread, is to work towards building and strengthening a grass-roots, progressive base. If more of the people who voted for Obama in 08 also wanted to keep getting involved in politics and to support local progressive causes and candidates, we’d be in a much better shape today. That said, it’s still not too late.

Comment #280: Ben F.  on  08/16  at  12:06 AM

Pot:  http://dailycaller.com/2011/07/01/justice-department-and-obama-reverse-stance-on-medical-marijuana-raids/

Do you have any links to articles from the National Review that smite the Obama Administration in a similar fashion as this link to Tucker “You’re as big a dick on your show as you are on any show” Carlson’s site does?

Yes, I’m very much attacking the messenger. When someone on the left has to cite conservative websites to try to prove their point about why the Democratic president supposedly sucks, they’ve lost a lot of credibility.

Comment #281: DTGslu2K  on  08/16  at  12:09 AM

#266:  That’s a beautiful comment, Imani.  Thank you.

Comment #282: Eileen  on  08/16  at  12:14 AM

I think this article is spot on and I’ve been guilty of thinking/acting this way far too often. Curses. Having said that ... I still think Obama is a weak president, albeit it one dealing with massive, inherited problems and afflicted by the vituperation of racist White America. Which doesn’t make anything ...

Comment #283: crescentdave  on  08/16  at  12:30 AM

easier for him. I think he could be clearer, more forceful and less beholden to the status quo. But compared to McCain and Palin? Please. I’ll vote for Obama in 2012 because the dems aren’t going to offer up anyone electable to primary him. Reality 101. I’ll continue to throw my two bits into the ring and continue to work in the local primaries to elect better politicians. Vote early and vote often is my motto.

Comment #284: crescentdave  on  08/16  at  12:35 AM

crescentdave:

Although Obama hasn’t been quite the president, say, Clinton was, I think a lot of people are forgetting to factor racism and wingnut stubbornness into the equation. Obama got a lot done during the first half of his term, but for the most part, the media has played it cool about acknowledging all that. (Hell, I usually wind up watching ABC News, which at its best (i.e. most things involving Brian Ross) is excellent, but at worst is Fox News with integrity. They can be… selective. At least they lost John Stossel.)

The real problem Obama has is that the vast majority of people out there don’t bother to look beyond the media, and are hubristic enough to think they can’t be bullshat by it—just try explaining the PNAC or the Right Wing Noise Machine to a hardcore wingnut. They’ll accuse you of tinfoil hattery even if you show them the PNAC’s website. On the whole, Obama has made some serious missteps, and simply hasn’t been able to deliver on quite a few of his promises, and probably could have gotten away with a lot more than he did had he listened to the party left. (And I think he got outright scammed on the stimulus package—from what I’ve heard Larry Summers simply threw away the highest-value option before giving it to the President to look at.) But look back at how Bill Clinton was treated in the 1990s, then put a black man, a woman, a northern Democrat, or any given minority in his place. I think that hypothetical other-Clinton’s presidency would have played out much like Obama’s now, complete with the over-the-top batshit insanity boiling over to a degree it didn’t back then. Keep in mind, a lot of the teabaggers are the exact same people passing around the Clinton Body Count list back then.

Comment #285: BrianX  on  08/16  at  12:44 AM

Although I’m not holding up Clinton as perfect by any means—Reagan set the ball rolling for the crash, but Glass-Steagal is on Clinton’s head…

Comment #286: BrianX  on  08/16  at  12:51 AM

Cronopio @257:  Yeah, that sums it up as far as this post is concerned.  Mind you, I agree with her theory of control, but self-trolling her own blog is pretty lame.

DTG and atheist:  The question was meant to be rhetorical, and I gave my own theory in the rest of the comment.  Thought of another good example, though:  Science is about striving towards perfecting our knowledge, despite never being able to actually reach perfection.  That balance exists in a lot of human endeavors, and I guess I don’t see how acknowledging one’s mortality allows one to reach that balance:  Even if I were immortal I wouldn’t live to see perfection.

“Give up control, because one day you and everyone you know will be dead” doesn’t make sense to me.  “Realize that you may not be alive to see great achievements in what you’re working towards” makes much more sense.  Could be nit-picking, though.

Comment #287: NY Expat  on  08/16  at  01:13 AM

Ben F:

If more of the people who voted for Obama in 08 also wanted to keep getting involved in politics and to support local progressive causes and candidates, we’d be in a much better shape today. That said, it’s still not too late.

That reminded me:  Axelrod specifically had all money and manpower go towards Obama For America, so the fuckers even cut off *that* avenue for progressives.

I say we work towards getting as many progressives in the House in 2014 and embarrass the hell out of his lame duck ass.

Comment #288: NY Expat  on  08/16  at  01:27 AM

Amanda, I can’t read you any more.  Your blind devotion to a system that appears very clearly to me to be broken and your dismissiveness towards anyone that disagrees with you is completely off-putting.  You gave me some good reading over the years, but I’ve found very little in your writing lately that I can agree with and your style has been mean-spirited.  Your comments about letting go of your illusion of control (which is obviously a lie) seem so very condescending.  It just makes me think about how young you are and, right or wrong, you seem very naive.  Thanks for the memories.

Comment #289: Mireille  on  08/16  at  01:32 AM

When I heard about the possibility of cuts to the Defense Department my first thought was: more than likely not less hardware (think defense contractors as political contributions), or cutting back on the number of wars we’re waging (most definitely not those wars for corporate profit).

I bet dollars to donuts any cuts would be coming out of the hides of the service members, because that’s just how corporate Democrats (and Republicans) roll.

Ka-ching, bring me my donuts!

The following lead story on the CBS Evening News:

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7376959n&tag=contentMain;contentBody

“The Department of Defense wants to scrap the military retirement plan . . . and allow Wall Street to raid the pensions of military servicemembers just like they do everyone else’s! (Except for Social Security, but Obama’s working on that).

No more serving in the military for 20 years and then retiring with half pay…Under the proposal, military folks wouldn’t be able to touch their retirement until they are 65, and benefits for longterm service would be slashed by an unspecified amount…Instead, the troops will get some version of a 401K that is subject to the whims of the stock market.
http://my.firedoglake.com/ohiogringo/2011/08/15/begging-for-a-revolution-the-department-of-defense-proposes-slashing-military-pensions/

Ka ching! t’s a trifecta: screw more service members out of the middle class and into a penurious old age, turn more military off from voting for Democrats, and Wall Street can buy more coke and hookers with their profits from buying off the political parties.

 

Comment #290: judybrowni  on  08/16  at  01:59 AM

When I heard about the possibility of cuts to the Defense Department my first thought was: more than likely not less hardware (think defense contractors as political contributions), or cutting back on the number of wars we’re waging (most definitely not those wars for corporate profit).

I bet dollars to donuts any cuts would be coming out of the hides of the service members, because that’s just how corporate Democrats (and Republicans) roll.

Ka-ching, bring me my donuts!

The following lead story on the CBS Evening News:

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7376959n&tag=contentMain;contentBody

“The Department of Defense wants to scrap the military retirement plan . . . and allow Wall Street to raid the pensions of military servicemembers just like they do everyone else’s! (Except for Social Security, but Obama’s working on that).

No more serving in the military for 20 years and then retiring with half pay…Under the proposal, military folks wouldn’t be able to touch their retirement until they are 65, and benefits for longterm service would be slashed by an unspecified amount…Instead, the troops will get some version of a 401K that is subject to the whims of the stock market.
http://my.firedoglake.com/ohiogringo/2011/08/15/begging-for-a-revolution-the-department-of-defense-proposes-slashing-military-pensions/

Ka ching! t’s a trifecta: screw more service members out of the middle class and into a penurious old age, turn more military off from voting for Democrats, and Wall Street can buy more coke and hookers with their profits from buying off the political parties.

 

Comment #291: judybrowni  on  08/16  at  02:08 AM

Sorry for the double post, I hafta go curl into a fetal ball.

Comment #292: judybrowni  on  08/16  at  02:11 AM

Or perhaps, just perhaps, there are more conservative voters than liberal ones. 

Fuck off, Dana.

Prick.

Comment #293: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/16  at  02:13 AM

Mireille:

Horseshit. Utter, complete, total fucking horseshit. You do realize you have to work within the system to change it, right? You have to play the hand you’re dealt. If you can’t deal with that, I have to wonder how you even manage to get out of bed in the morning without taking a shotgun to the alarm clock.

Comment #294: BrianX  on  08/16  at  02:25 AM

Two and a half more hours for self-important butthurt to drive this thread over 300.  C’mon, folks, it’s all about you!  You can do it!

U mad?

Comment #295: Dan  on  08/16  at  02:42 AM

Although I’m not holding up Clinton as perfect by any means—Reagan set the ball rolling for the crash, but Glass-Steagal is on Clinton’s head…

Nitpicking pedantry on my part in hope of pushing this thread past the #300 mark before dawn, but I assume you mean the repeal of Glass-Steagall is on Clinton’s head. Or more precisely, the signing of Gramm-Leach-Bliley by Clinton in 1999 which effectively repealed Glass-Steagall is on Clinton’s head.

Comment #296: DTGslu2K  on  08/16  at  03:48 AM

If you want to protest-vote against the Democrats’ inability to do anything even vaguely left wing wouldn’t it be more, er, relevant to your interests to vote for an actually left-wing candidate (or at least a plausibly more left-wing than the Democrats candidate).  You could try the green party, you could even try standing for election (although I realise that in the US this is extremely expensive, even if you don’t really bother to campaign).

Comment #297: naath  on  08/16  at  05:02 AM

You do realize you have to work within the system to change it, right? You have to play the hand you’re dealt.

What ho, my dear BrianX!  What say you about that lovely health care system Queen Elizabeth has given us in the colonies?  Complicated pile of rubbish, won’t you say?  Still, with all the Tories infesting our provincial governour’s mansions, it was the best she could offer us, eh?  God Save the Queen!

Just realize that you look like a clown when you try to make the empirically false assertion that “D” is no different than “F” in regard to the progressive agenda.

I look like a clown a lot of the time.  But when I said I refuse to vote for a D or an F when there’s something better on the ballot, I was just being a rational human being.  Don’t get mad at me because you’re content to be a chickenshit.

So if you’re so disgusted with “D” that you absolutely refuse to vote for him or worse…

Ach! So much butthurt.  But not enough for 300 before midnight, alas.  Anyway, I’m not ‘disgusted’ with Obama.  He is what he is, and he was what he was in 2008.  So I didn’t vote for him.  There was no illusion of control, just me the lowly voter stepping into the voting booth to choose the best candidate for the job.  I do the same thing for every election, every office, every time.  I can’t help it if 70 million of you were playing 3-D chess in the voting booth in ‘08 and Hope-ing for progress.  I wasn’t mad at you then, and I ain’t mad at you now.  You got the Reagan Rehash you voted for, and you want to try and flip your buyer’s remorse onto me and other nonconformists with your smugness jujitsu.  Maybe.  Maybe you’re all just Mean Girls who just can’t stand that little hippie girl who won’t dress right and toe the social line.  Some of you are rather clever with it, but I still ain’t buying.  No Obama for me in 2012, got it?  If McKinney runs Green again, she’ll get my vote.  If not, I’ll nominate the best Green available and vote for her/him in the general.  Feel free to call me crazy, childish, butthurt, or whatever.  I won’t be voting for more war, less Social Security and Medicare, and more giveaway of the commons to the superwealthy.  You will.  You may call your chickenshit vote a saner choice than Rick Perry or Michele Bachmann, and in a sense you’ll be right, but I call it the coward’s way to the same end.  A little more slowly, the pretense of a dignified arrival, but a disaster all the same.

Comment #298: Sam Holloway  on  08/16  at  05:57 AM

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Lilly Rush {is a|is really a|can be a|is often a|is usually a|is actually a|may be a|is known as a|can be described as|is mostly a|is definitely a|rrs really a|is a really|is really|really is a|serves as a|is the|works as a|is seen as a|could be a|truly a|is truly a|truly|is regarded as a|regarded as a|actually|genuinely|is an accomplished|can be|should be a|could be|is often|has been a|will be a|is known as the|is|may be|generally|definitely a|frequently|actually a|usually|seriously a|might be|‘s a|is actually|typically|might be a|can be described} Philadelphia {police detective|detective|investigator|tec} {working for|employed by|doing work for|being employed by|earning a living for|discussing} the department’s homicide squad and being assinged ‘cold cases’; Crimes {that have been|which have been|which were|that were|which are|that are|that had been|which|that|which has been|of} commited {many years ago|a long time ago|in the past|long ago|several years ago|once|much time ago} {and have|and also have|and possess|and still have|and have absolutely|and get|and now have|as well as have|with|and provide|and offer|while having|and then have|and have now|and has|and also|and|or have|and enjoy|then have|and feature|and just have|maintain|and are|then get|that has|as well as|and are covered by|and have been|but|providing|and include|to get|and maintain|and indulge in} not been solved. Lilly must {try to|attempt to|make an effort to|try and|seek to|aim to|endeavor to|make sure to|make an attempt to|make sure you|be sure to|attempt|begin to|try|look to|strive to|make an effort|you could try and|strain to|try to|look at|attempt and|effort to} re-think the Crime scenes and interview other people involved with the victims {to find a|to locate a|to discover a|to identify a|to get a|to see a|to get yourself a|to pinpoint a|to buy a|to look through|for a|to be able to|in order to|to|to choose a} {link to|connect to|url to|connection to|hyperlink to|check out|backlink to|chek out} solving {the cases|the instances|the events}
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Comment #299: then2011  on  08/16  at  06:00 AM

I won’t be voting for more war, less Social Security and Medicare, and more giveaway of the commons to the superwealthy.  You will.  You may call your chickenshit vote a saner choice than Rick Perry or Michele Bachmann, and in a sense you’ll be right, but I call it the coward’s way to the same end.  A little more slowly, the pretense of a dignified arrival, but a disaster all the same.

If, gun to your head, you’d prefer Obama to Perry/Bachman/Romney and you don’t show up to voe, you can say you didn’t vote for more war, less Social Security and Medicare, and more giveaway of the commons to superwealthy.

But I think you’ll be wrong.

Every leftish person who doesn’t vote for whoever the Democrats throw up may as well be approving a Republican. Politics in this country is a zero sum game. You can talk about the reasons that sucks and the reason the people who own our political parties like it that way. You’d be right. But refusing the participate doesn’t change the damn system.

I’d also recomend you put your electoral energy into showing up for primaries and ferreting out which of the Dem candidates for state rep and the like is more left.

The American Left: combining hardnosed realism with self-destructive fuckwittery since the Gilded Age. There are a lot of you here that I’m truly ashamed to have on my side.

No enemies to left. The same realism that tells me I have to show up and vote for the corporate Democrat with the nice smile and loathsome Treasury Department tells me that we oughtnt insult people who are fundamentally on our side.

Comment #300: witless chum  on  08/16  at  06:54 AM

This thread has been pointlessly hateful and obnoxious, but it’s one of the best examples I’ve seen in a while of how bloggers cultivate the culture on their commenting boards.

Comment #301: Eileen  on  08/16  at  08:40 AM

Yes, Eileen, and you’re here in the midst of it, putting on your “I’m all above the fray” bullshit airs.

Thanks for sharing!

Comment #302: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  08/16  at  08:59 AM

There is no gun to my head, chum.  There is no constitutional mandate for a two-party system.  If politics in this country is a zero-sum game, then we have already lost, and we might as well leap whole hog into Amanda’s nihilistic thought experiment.  I refuse to accept that.  The Democratic Party is not entitled to my vote.  I will continue to volunteer and give my money and vote to the Green Party.  Again, this isn’t about the illusion of control.  This is just one citizen, one voter, doing what I can to achieve incremental change from the ground up.  If your philosophy is to try and effect incremental change within a system that is thoroughly bought out and corrupted, then that’s your choice.

I’ll tell you, though, chum.  The prognosis for your option doesn’t look good.  Concentrated wealth owns both major parties, and even well-meaning Dems are hamstrung by the campaign contribution needs of the party.  That means that as a voter, you pull a Democratic ballot and you’re automatically starting from a losing position.  Again, it’s a slower, more self-satisfying road to hell, but it winds up at the same place.

Finally, chum, I sincerely appreciate your lack of willingness to sling insults and disingenuous invective at those who don’t fall into the corporate-approved line.

Comment #303: Sam Holloway  on  08/16  at  08:59 AM

Dark Avenger, what was the intention of this whole thing? What was the point?

Comment #304: Eileen  on  08/16  at  09:01 AM

There is no constitutional mandate for a two-party system.  If politics in this country is a zero-sum game, then we have already lost, and we might as well leap whole hog into Amanda’s nihilistic thought experiment.  I refuse to accept that.  The Democratic Party is not entitled to my vote.  I will continue to volunteer and give my money and vote to the Green Party.  Again, this isn’t about the illusion of control.  This is just one citizen, one voter, doing what I can to achieve incremental change from the ground up.  If your philosophy is to try and effect incremental change within a system that is thoroughly bought out and corrupted, then that’s your choice.

Increasingly, comments like these are far more compelling than the ‘drink the kool-aid’ comments.  I’ll vote for Obama, but seriously, this weird thought experiment has tended much more toward encouraging people not to participate at all.  Nihilism isn’t a good motivator for political participation.

Comment #305: Eileen  on  08/16  at  09:06 AM

<blockquote>what was the intention of this whole thing? What was the point?
<blockquote>

Seems pretty clear what the point was: to say something intensely stupid and self-aggrandizing and then pillory anyone who who even mildly disagrees, including those who are willing to listen. 

What I learned was, Obama supporters have no good selling points, so they channel the tea party and bludgeon any and all dissent with vapid, empty, spineless saber rattling.  I’m unimpressed and unpersuaded. 

Amanda’s cowardice here is the most surprising.  That such a kick ass feminist is such a fucking coward about this issue is disheartening.

Comment #306: Rare Vos  on  08/16  at  09:10 AM

Dark Avenger, what was the intention of this whole thing? What was the point?

That we have to get off our butts and organize, agitate, and educate, instead of being thankful that Obama merely put SS and Medicare on the table instead of agreeing to their outright abolition as his Republican opponents would certainly like to see happen.

Obama supporters have no good selling points.

Yep, you got the gist of it.

Comment #307: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  08/16  at  09:18 AM

typist @195 FTW on troups in the middle east thread following this post.  Also, when is the Korean war going to be over?

Comment #308: helen w. h.  on  08/16  at  09:42 AM

Sam @ 199: if you think the occupation of Germany after WWII was peaceful, you have bought a whitewashed history.

Comment #309: helen w. h.  on  08/16  at  09:45 AM

ArielNYC 217 - we tend to have more agreement on the subjects of prostitution and unreciprocated oral sex.  I notice those tend to be the subjects where you look bad as you seem to be rational and/or better able to express yourself in the very few comments I’ve seen out of you for culture and politics.  This blog is frequented by political wanks and wank wannabes.  Of course this topic will be hot.

Comment #310: helen w. h.  on  08/16  at  09:55 AM

I’ll tell you, though, chum.  The prognosis for your option doesn’t look good.  Concentrated wealth owns both major parties, and even well-meaning Dems are hamstrung by the campaign contribution needs of the party.  That means that as a voter, you pull a Democratic ballot and you’re automatically starting from a losing position.  Again, it’s a slower, more self-satisfying road to hell, but it winds up at the same place.

Vote Obama! He’s a slower road to hell! That is a mostly accurate gloss of what I’m arguing, I realize.

But it sure as fuck isn’t more self-satisfying for me. Why I pretty much agree with Amanda’s analysis here (and I’m not saying that’s you, Sam, but I do think it’s some people) is that I have that feeling she’s describing within myself. I like punk rock. I’d feel a lot better voting for the Greens, that’s where I am politically, not with the Democrats. And fuck the Democrats. They ought to bloody well see that at least swinging lefter economically in a goddamn recession would get them more votes and that they didn’t win playing Republican-light deficit games. I voted for Nader in 2000. But I now think I was wrong to do that.

Comment #311: witless chum  on  08/16  at  10:03 AM

Thanks, Sensible Liberals, for electing him.  Thanks so much

Duder, sensible liberals didn’t elect Rahm Emanuel. This is Chicago. NOBODY elects ANYBODY in Chicago, people are chosen. If every sensible and non-sensible liberal in the city sat home on Election Day, he would still be our mayor, because the previous Hizzoner declared it thus.

(Not that this in any way negates your issues with Rahm’s former boss. I’m just tired of being implicitly blamed for Emanuel and his shit-tasticness when we all know nobody could have done a fucking goddamn thing about it. I didn’t even vote for the bastard.)

Comment #312: Well, what?  on  08/16  at  11:52 AM

My take on Amanda’s point is: even if you live in a state where the Presidential election outcome is uncertain, your individual vote has almost no impact on the outcome of the election. In addition, message voting is completely ineffective. A protest vote is indistinguishable from serious support for the candidate.

Given that, making a big deal of how your voting is next to useless as political activism. Telling the world that you’re not voting for Obama because he is not sufficiently liberal does nothing to actually make the world more liberal.

Vote for who you want. But don’t think that your voting will change the world. If you want to change the world, do something that matters.

Comment #313: Matthew Morse  on  08/16  at  12:42 PM

Over 200 comments, driven by butthurt!  I think we’ll make the 300-by-midnight finish line without a problem.

Wow, am I really at Pandagon reading Amanda Marcotte, or did I stumble onto one of Cringely’s famous troll articles?

 

Comment #314: boring old dude  on  08/16  at  12:54 PM

To Helen @310.  Occupied Germany was a bit more peaceful than occupied Iraq.  Anyhow, the more pertinent point is that one occupation was based on an unwarranted and illegal invasion.  The other was not.

@313: Unless he bought all his votes, then he could have been defeated.  We had a well-funded, hand-picked heir-apparent in the 47th Ward, and he went down to an unknown challenger.  It can be done, but it takes engaged and knowledgeable voters.  Also, a little indignation might have been a factor.  Many of my neighbors didn’t appreciate having a choice shoved down their throats.  So chalk one up for butthurt.

Comment #315: Sam Holloway  on  08/16  at  12:55 PM

This is a depressing conversation.

Whatever our differences, it’s tiresome to see people who are ostensibly on the same side tear into each other like this, not least of all because this is essentially the behavior of people who are utterly powerless. It’s an uncomfortable admission to have to make, but I look around this thread, and I see impotent liberals doing their best to bloody up one another because they’re incapable of harming anyone else, least of all their enemies.

I tend to be more on the side of the “purists” who think it would be nice if Democratic politicians would sometimes act like Democrats instead of corporate bagmen…but as little as I appreciate having “Shut up and do as your told, peasant!” screeched in my face, I do understand the very real and legitimate fear coming from Amanda and the others here arguing from her side; I don’t want to see Crazy Eyes or Governor Goodhair claw their way into the White House, either. The problem is, the neoliberals now running the Democratic Party recognize this, and use it as what basically amounts to blackmail material: “Don’t like what we’re doing? Tough shit. Who else are you gonna vote for? It would be a shame if anything even worse were to happen to the country…”

I honestly wish I saw some way out of this trap.

Comment #316: John D.  on  08/16  at  12:59 PM

Rare Vos @306
“Seems pretty clear what the point was: to say something intensely stupid and self-aggrandizing and then pillory anyone who who even mildly disagrees, including those who are willing to listen.

What I learned was, Obama supporters have no good selling points, so they channel the tea party and bludgeon any and all dissent with vapid, empty, spineless saber rattling.  I’m unimpressed and unpersuaded.”

I thought this stood repeating.

I think there’s an issue that the more popular web logs, left right and center.  They have become the eVillage.  The eVillagers are as defensive of their privilege as the Villagers.  They get the same reinforcement from their groupies, have lost all humility and believe every word and narrative (and the eVillagers create narratives as much as the Villagers ever did) they post is brilliant and unassailable, and find many of their topics for posting the same way as the Villagers find their subjects for discussion—by commenting on someone else’s posting just like you constantly see the Villagers interviewing one another rather than newsmakers.  Contemplating one’s navel might be fun for some people, but it tends to screw up your vision when you finally look up and try to focus on things that aren’t as close.

Comment #317: DBK  on  08/16  at  01:08 PM

Amanda would tell you that there is no trap—you have no power whatsoever, and that absolves you of any responsibility to bother thinking.

Vote “D,” because they’re less stupid.  Don’t invest.  Politics is owned by rich men, and your only power is local.  Having an opinion on whether or not Obama is good enough is like having an opinion on whether or not your local quarterback is good enough.  It’s fundamentally meaningless.

It’s a strong point, that we live in a world where we are systematically disenfranchised enough—and our countrymen are okay enough with it—that hoping for an actually good President is probably pretty stupid.  I’ve been trying to get used to the idea of the US as a nation in permanent decline, and Amanda’s position is definitely a corollary.

Comment #318: Punditus Maximus  on  08/16  at  01:18 PM

And there’s DBK, back again, coming up with yet another crap justification for the Leeroy Jenkins approach to liberalism…

Comment #319: BrianX  on  08/16  at  01:30 PM

Since I don’t play video games, I had to look up Leeroy Jenkins.  You kewl kidz with your cute references.

Gee, did I get you and all the liberals killed?  Sorry about that.  Maybe you can find something useful to do in the afterlife, Brian.  If you live in Chicago, you can probably still vote for Obama even if you are dead.

Comment #320: DBK  on  08/16  at  01:52 PM

Punditus:

It’s not an either-or proposition. Voting for Obama just to avoid losing ground with the status quo is just one of several strategies we need to follow.

Obama isn’t the only variable here. We still have to fight for the House and Senate. We still have Planned Parenthood, the ACLU, the NAACP, and many other groups that are out there, fighting to get things done. If you’re not factoring that into your evaluation of what Amanda’s saying here, where do you get off discussing progressive politics to begin with?

The key word here is “tactics”. It’s like in a street fight—there’s nothing dishonorable in a streetfight about kneeing your attacker in the crotch. We need to work on making changes in the small—local politics, legislative initiatives, business activism. That doesn’t preclude us from making changes in the big stuff whenever we can, but it’s all in the way the system works. I mean, sure, if you want to try to get a constitutional amendment through that turns the House into a parliamentary body, go right ahead. But you have to treat it as the pie-in-the-sky objective that it is, and not lose sight of the smaller things that need to be done and can be done.

Comment #321: BrianX  on  08/16  at  01:54 PM

DBK:

And what exactly do you hope to accomplish by not voting or voting spoiler, hm?

Comment #322: BrianX  on  08/16  at  02:02 PM

I tend to be more on the side of the “purists” who think it would be nice if Democratic politicians would sometimes act like Democrats instead of corporate bagmen…but as little as I appreciate having “Shut up and do as your told, peasant!” screeched in my face, I do understand the very real and legitimate fear coming from Amanda and the others here arguing from her side; I don’t want to see Crazy Eyes or Governor Goodhair claw their way into the White House, either. The problem is, the neoliberals now running the Democratic Party recognize this, and use it as what basically amounts to blackmail material: “Don’t like what we’re doing? Tough shit. Who else are you gonna vote for? It would be a shame if anything even worse were to happen to the country…” I honestly wish I saw some way out of this trap.

There isn’t one.

The problem is that while the arguments for party-line voting are strong, the argument that nobody should ever have a deal-breaker is weak.

And fundamentally, I think it is also the case that people are too quick to assume that everyone who is ostensibly in the same zone of the political spectrum as they are necessarily orders their preferences the same way.

To me, war is the best example of this. There is a non-zero quantity of absolute pacifists in the liberal coalition, as well as a lot of people who are about where I am, not pacifist but basically opposed to the killing of foreigners to advance US power in the world. (I think it is acceptable to go to war only to protect the country from a hostile force.)

The thing about these two groups (which you might call the “anti-war” coalition) is that a lot of their members feel extremely strongly about this—as strongly as a hardcore pro-choicer or pro-lifer feels about abortion, for instance.

The remainder of the liberal coalition consists of people who either don’t care that much about military imperialism even if they oppose it, or who support military imperialism (although they don’t call themselves imperialists, they call themselves liberal internationalists).

The thing is, if you just say “well, we’re all on the same side”, I suspect a lot of the harder core peaceniks and some of the anti-imperialists as well would say “no, we really are not”. In other words, they define themselves as being critics of American LIBERALISM, not American conservativism. And furthermore, they feel that it would be grossly immoral to vote for a President who intends to murder tens of thousands of foreigners, whether that President is ostensibly liberal or conservative. (Again, I would never have voted for LBJ in 1968 or Truman in 1952, despite my agreement with many of their domestic policies.) And finally, even though the more honest of them should still acknowledge that there are material differences between the parties, they would claim that on what they believe is the most important issue in the world, there is no significant difference.

Again, I would argue that Obama got some of those voters back into the fold by opposing the Iraq War and thus presenting at least a theoretical difference between the parties.

The point is, I think the people who demand that everyone “on the left” (or on the right, for that matter) vote for the lesser of two evils are often grafting their own preference intensities onto other people. I.e., because *I* am willing to live with voting for Hubert Humphrey despite the fact that he was an integral part of an Administration who deliberately murdered 250,000 innocent Vietnamese in cold blood for completely trivial reasons, this means that anyone on “the left” who is NOT willing to live with that is automatically an unrealistic utopian who is responsible for putting Nixon in power and doesn’t understand the fundamental differences between the parties. Instead of understanding “well, that person refuses to vote for a Democrat who supports the murder of foreigners for the same reason that I would refuse to vote for a Democrat who is pro-life”.

It is possible to (a) be ostensibly on the left and (b) have a fundamental ideological disagreement with other people on the left on an issue that is too important to that person to be papered over.

That is what makes this an unbridgeable chasm. Logically, your short term interests are maximized if you always vote for the leftmost candidate who stands a chance of getting elected. But in the real world, people have dealbreakers, and these disputes are really about one group of people whose dealbreakers are different than another group of people.

Comment #323: Dilan Esper  on  08/16  at  02:10 PM

Wait, so now primarying candidates is considered a “quixotic” and idealistic move by the left?  And we’re back to the progressive saw of “grass-roots organizing”? 

Fuck that.

The left has been grass-roots organizing for decades.  Why do you think the right went after ACORN?  Grass-roots organizing has gotten us nothing, because the difference between the right and the left isn’t about patience, or the illusion or control, or grass-roots organizing.  It’s money.  Lots and lots of money.  Lawyers, guns, and money, as Warren Zevon would say.  As long as we can’t match corporate donors dollar for dollar, electoral politics isn’t going to benefit the left, no matter what we do, so we may as well vote for whomever we want. 

Clinton destroyed AFDC, not a republican.  And he got re-elected, on the same grounds that I’m now being told to vote for Obama, who put Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid on the table, the same grounds that I’ve been voting Democrat for 17 years now, that things could get worse, and don’t I care about Roe v. Wade and the supreme court?  And guess what?  Things keep on getting worse.  If the best reason I get for voting Obama is now “things could get worse faster,” you’ll have to excuse me if that song sounds so familiar that I turn off the radio.

Comment #324: EG01  on  08/16  at  02:16 PM

Dilan:

But there is a way out. It involves voting to minimize damage in the short term while working for real change in the long term. What I see here is a lot of people who don’t want to accept that this is essentially a long term problem.

Comment #325: BrianX  on  08/16  at  02:17 PM

EG01:

And what do you suggest doing? What would be an effective alternative?

Comment #326: BrianX  on  08/16  at  02:19 PM

Brian, I am not hoping to accomplish anything.  That’s a direct answer to your question.  Why do you think it will be an “accomplishment”?  Where did I say anything about “voting protest”?  What the hell are you talking about?

I am not voting for Obama because it would be a waste of time to do so.  Numerous commenters have written better than I why that is (and thanks to them for expressing it so well).

Comment #327: DBK  on  08/16  at  02:33 PM

From Sam @303:

If your philosophy is to try and effect incremental change within a system that is thoroughly bought out and corrupted, then that’s your choice.

No, it’s not a choice. You accept reality and adopt strategies that correspond to it. Perhaps you’d like water to be dry and the sky to be purple, but the universe has no requirement to conform to your wishes.

If politics in this country is a zero-sum game, then we have already lost,

Lack of a satisfactory system of elections does not prevent social change. There have been several examples in just the last year of undemocratic societies experiencing substantial political upheaval. Also, you live in a country founded in a revolution. It’s a good thing the British let the founders vote for Nader, or we would still be a colony.

Accepting the fact that voting for Greens is utterly inconsequential does not mean that a future of endless fascism awaits.

 

 

 

Comment #328: Kurt Horner  on  08/16  at  02:34 PM

@ Sam (howdy neighbor). I love Ameya Pawar as much as anyone, but aldermen and mayors are not the same thing in Chicago, never were, never will be.

Comment #329: Well, what?  on  08/16  at  02:39 PM

EG01:

And what do you suggest doing? What would be an effective alternative?

I didn’t realize that I had to have one. 

Is having a solution required if you point out a problem?  If I note that the East Side IRT is overcrowded to the point of misery and absurdity, so that during rush hour I have to wait for two trains to go by before I can fit myself on to the third, am I required to be well-versed enough in how to run a mass-transit railway system to provide the combination of timetables and new construction that would provide the solution?

I don’t have a degree in Poli Sci.  I haven’t studied the sociology of political movements since college, which was quite some time ago.

If it were up to me, I’d take a look at the tactics of successful leftist movements in the past, perhaps the Civil Rights movement and the Labor movement.  Doing so would lead me to espouse direct action movements that scared the shit out of the ruling class enough to lead them to take legislative action to ameliorate the situations, and to recognize that the legislation was a half measure driven by fear of greater direct action, rather than by electoral organizing.

Comment #330: EG01  on  08/16  at  02:47 PM

DBK:

Then here’s the key question: if you don’t hope to accomplish anything, what is the point of what you’re doing?

Because, honestly, I thought you were actually trying to do something by not voting. I have no idea what, but if you don’t expect do do anything useful, then I’m forced to dismiss you as being completely and utterly full of shit. At least I have an idea of what I want done, and I recognize that requires working with what’s there in the short term. You seem to be seriously advocating political suicide.

Kurt: Voting for Greens isn’t utterly inconsequential on the local level. That’s where it’s got to start—shooting for the stars is just not going to work for a third party. It’s all a question of doing so where it makes sense to mathematically, and at this point that means on the municipal and county level.

Comment #331: BrianX  on  08/16  at  02:48 PM

It involves voting to minimize damage in the short term while working for real change in the long term. What I see here is a lot of people who don’t want to accept that this is essentially a long term problem.

Perhaps reading, before bludgeoning dissent, would have helped.  We’re ALL talking about the long term - the long term strategies that got us HERE, the long term effects of the oppsing side that got us HERE, the long term effects of the left’s complete ineffectualness that got us HERE. 

And, we’re also talking about voting to minimize damage in the short term while trying to figure out what the fuck to do about the long term. 

We just don’t agree that voting for Obama is going to actually minimize any damage.

Case in point: Linkie

I remain unimpressed and unpersuaded. 

 

Comment #332: Rare Vos  on  08/16  at  02:56 PM

EG01:

Well, at least you’re willing to come up with something. Which is apparently more than DBK is willing to do. Direct action is tricky, but if you get it right it does work. (And yes, I’d consider that activism alongside electoral organization. So on that level at least I agree with you.)

another point re: Greens:

Actually, that’s kind of the problem with Ralph Nader. Coming out of the 70s he had a lot of political capital as a consumer advocate and proceeded to squander it all as a perennial presidential candidate. Whatever contributions he could have made as a senator or House member over the last thirty years has been lost because he insisted at aiming for the moon when he didn’t have the juice to make it there.

Comment #333: BrianX  on  08/16  at  02:58 PM

EG01 brings up an excellent point: what happens when the Democrats we’re being told to vote for put successful energy into destroying the grass-roots organizing that we’re told is the long term solution?

Comment #334: Punditus Maximus  on  08/16  at  03:01 PM

Push back. You know, like we did on DADT. Sometimes it even works.

Comment #335: BrianX  on  08/16  at  03:05 PM

But there is a way out. It involves voting to minimize damage in the short term while working for real change in the long term. What I see here is a lot of people who don’t want to accept that this is essentially a long term problem.

Part of the problem is that the short term and long term interests are sometimes in conflict. Barry Goldwater delivered the Republicans a humiliating loss in 1964, yet I don’t think conservatives are wrong to feel that the show of strength they demonstrated in that election year helped them get Reagan nominated and elected in 1980.

And the other part of the problem is that I don’t see any way to stop people from having dealbreakers. Again, to use a conservative example, a number of conservatives endorsed liberal, somewhat corrupt Edwin Edwards against ex-KKK David Duke for Governor of Louisiana several years back. I don’t see any problem with someone on the right saying “even though Duke is closer to my ideology, the KKK is a dealbreaker for me”. We all have dealbreakers. I wouldn’t vote for an unrepentant ex-KKK member who was the more liberal of the two candidates either!

And to me, that makes this much more into an argument of “my dealbreakers are legitimate but yours shouldn’t count” rather than “everyone has to vote for the more liberal of the two candidates”.

Comment #336: Dilan Esper  on  08/16  at  03:07 PM

Just realize that you look like a clown when you try to make the empirically false assertion that “D” is no different than “F” in regard to the progressive agenda.

I look like a clown a lot of the time.  But when I said I refuse to vote for a D or an F when there’s something better on the ballot, I was just being a rational human being.  Don’t get mad at me because you’re content to be a chickenshit.

1. Go fuck yourself.

2. You’re a fool if you actually think that something else on the ballot is something that you can actually have. But go ahead and pat yourself on the back for your wonderful “principled” vote cast for a third party candidate that you and I both know has absolutely 0% chance of getting elected to the presidency, you sanctimonious asshole.

Comment #337: DTGslu2K  on  08/16  at  03:27 PM

Depending on where a voter is voting, a liberal 3rd party vote could be perfectly acceptable - if the race is already a landslide either for or against the less bad of the two main options, I really don’t see anything wrong with voting the 3rd party option, not that I trust vote reporting enough to usually chance it.  But someone, in say NY or ID, who can honestly say they are sure which way the vote is going?  Why the hell not?

Comment #338: helen w. h.  on  08/16  at  03:38 PM

Excellent post.  I used to be the kind of entitled liberal/progressive you speak of who thought it was my way or the highway.  I used to parrot the rhetoric that there was no difference between the parties.  It got so bad that I started to agree with anarcho-primitivists, until I realized how much wishful thinking (and lunacy) was involved.  Really that’s what idealism boils down to - wishful thinking.  The further left or right you go, the worse the problem becomes.  It’s all about not compromising until the utopian future you imagine in your head is realized.  After watching state governments and the House go to the Republicans in the last election, with disastrous consequences for women’s rights, I realized that the left is losing its way and can’t prioritize anymore.  This seems to emerge from to a refusal to strategize based on the constraints of the real world, and replacing that with navel gazing about how to bring about the perfect future that does not and will not exist given those constraints.  This doesn’t mean we can’t fight for what we think is right, but to realize that failure is always an option and if failure keeps happening, perhaps we aren’t learning from it.  The catch 22 is that when you lose the illusion of control it means you come to terms with the fact that you also can’t control other people.  What follows is that you have to wait till others come to terms with the facts and realities themselves - even while you may try to convey what those facts and realities are.  Like me, most of these individuals won’t face up to reality until it either smacks them in the face or they rationalize their way out of their wishful thinking.  Politics tend to be one of those endeavors that is more informed by theory (especially in the colloquial sense) than evidence.

Comment #339: flapjack007  on  08/16  at  03:38 PM

All this talk of Ds and Fs obscures the issue that yesterday’s F is today’s C.  The stuff that is being pushed on us now was actually politically unspeakable fifteen years ago.  If I found it too noxious to discuss fifteen years ago, why am I supposed to vote for it or be satisfied with it now?  And if fifteen years from now, Bachmann’s positions are C compared to some openly fascist’s F, am I supposed to vote for Bachmann?  At what point, precisely, am I allowed to draw the line?

Comment #340: EG01  on  08/16  at  03:40 PM

And the other part of the problem is that I don’t see any way to stop people from having dealbreakers. Again, to use a conservative example, a number of conservatives endorsed liberal, somewhat corrupt Edwin Edwards against ex-KKK David Duke for Governor of Louisiana several years back. I don’t see any problem with someone on the right saying “even though Duke is closer to my ideology, the KKK is a dealbreaker for me”. We all have dealbreakers. I wouldn’t vote for an unrepentant ex-KKK member who was the more liberal of the two candidates either!

I don’t know as I do. I think I’d have to vote for Duke in that scenario, or move. I just don’t see voting for someone as an endorsement of them or their ideology beyond I’d rather you in office than the alternative. If I couldn’t tell which was more liberal, THEN I’d figure what the hell and write in the ghost of Joe Hill or something.

Comment #341: witless chum  on  08/16  at  03:41 PM

#342:

Well, if you are against all dealbreakers, the other thing I would say about it is that I think your position is very much a minority (that most of us DO have dealbreakers) and that trying to eliminate dealbreakers from political behavior is just as quixotic as what people are accusing Nader voters of doing is.

Comment #342: Dilan Esper  on  08/16  at  03:44 PM

If I found it too noxious to discuss fifteen years ago, why am I supposed to vote for it or be satisfied with it now?  And if fifteen years from now, Bachmann’s positions are C compared to some openly fascist’s F, am I supposed to vote for Bachmann?  At what point, precisely, am I allowed to draw the line?

“You WANT a G to get into power?  I know it’s not what liberals want, but at least F is only talking about minorities like gays, Commies, and Jews…”

Comment #343: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/16  at  04:09 PM

“Then here’s the key question: if you don’t hope to accomplish anything, what is the point of what you’re doing?”

Your key question is a non sequitur.  What is the point of not voting for someone?  Um, to not vote for someone?  How’s that?

I know you’re trying to make some sort of point with your question, and I suspect it has something to do with “Look at me, I’m doing positive things for the world and you aren’t”, but I frankly don’t give a shit about that point, if that’s it.

Comment #344: DBK  on  08/16  at  04:17 PM

Good point, DBK.  Personally, when I don’t want to spend time doing something as admittedly time-consuming as voting, I make sure to post 350 comments on the internet for two days straight so that people know how little care I care.

Comment #345: stubbles  on  08/16  at  04:23 PM

Heh, fair point, PiaToR.  I forgot that in that scenario, I’d be too busy running for my life to cast a vote.  I guess I’d just have to depend on the slow and incremental work of sensible liberals to slowly see results from their slow voting before I get killed.

Comment #346: EG01  on  08/16  at  04:23 PM

You overlook the return on investment, stubbles.  Voting gets me no return for a variable amount of effort.  Many people enjoy discussing politics, so that return is worth the effort.

Comment #347: EG01  on  08/16  at  04:30 PM

By the way, for anyone who thinks that the pro-Obama arguments sound distressingly familiar, here’s a fifteen-year-old essay from Katha Pollitt explaining why she’s not voting for Clinton the second time around:

http://econ161.berkeley.edu/politics/pollitt.html

Her response to the ever-predictable whine about the lesser-of-two-evils can be found in the column entitled “No Vote for Clinton?  Readers Bite Back.” in Subject to Debate, but cannot be found on the web, at least as far as I’ve been able to ascertain.  In it, she essentially points out that the fantasy of control is actually to be found among those who are so certain that their lone vote is going to be the heroic one that keeps the Nazis out of power. 

Ah, wait, here we are:

http://books.google.com/books?id=CN4PxodWeHUC&pg=PA144&dq=katha+pollitt+no+vote+for+clinton+readers+bite+back&hl=en&ei=dNhKTs35LKPW0QHAqsXsBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f;=false

Some things are different: Obama is not going to win as handily as Clinton was.  If you are in one of the few swing states out there, and you feel strongly that you want to do the lesser-of-two-evils thing, I do see your point.  I’m not sure I would make the same decision in your shoes, but I see your point.  If you’re not…if you, as are Amanda and I, are in a state that is reliably Democratic or reliably Republican, though, there is not even that difference.

Comment #348: EG01  on  08/16  at  04:55 PM

And one more random thought before I sign off.

A month ago, the last time this came up on Pandagon, I’d been of the mind that I would vote for Obama despite everything because I didn’t see what else could be done, but with no illusions that he would actually do anything I found acceptable.  Over the past month, I’ve wavered and been undecided.

Reading this essay, and this thread, and the vituperative and condescending attitudes toward those who object to Obama strongly enough not to want to cast a vote has decided me.  I’m not voting for him.  I’ll direct my energies to actual liberal-left causes and organizations.

So, if you are of the school of thought that believes, in the face of all the evidence, that each vote counts, and that one should always vote for the lesser of two evils and thus slow the progression of this handbasket toward hell from 75 mph to 55 mph, and you’ve been writing/commenting on this thread…well done.

Comment #349: EG01  on  08/16  at  05:07 PM

The “butthurt” skeptics have another voice joining their chorus today: Glenn Greenwald.

Comment #350: boring old dude  on  08/16  at  05:20 PM

Linking is so much better than making a coherent argument, bod.

Comment #351: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  08/16  at  05:51 PM

To @338:  I can live with being a fool AND a sanctimonious asshole.  I am also perfectly capable of fucking myself.  Either of my wives can attest to these facts.  However, I am still unwilling to live and vote as a piece-of-shit coward.  If choosing from a narrow spectrum of corporate-approved political candidates is your idea of ideological conviction and ‘reasonable’ tactics, then by all means have at it.  I’ll keep voting for the best candidate available, not worrying about what the rest of you do when you venture out of your sensible cringing for Election Day, and you can keep calling me a foolish, sanctimonious asshole after you scurry back to your crowded hidey-hole.

Comment #352: Sam Holloway  on  08/16  at  07:22 PM

It seems pretty self-evident that there are no easy or pleasant (or even palatable) answers. With nothing but bad choices all around, let’s examine what routes are available to us…

1.) Don’t Vote. I’ve heard some quarters make the argument that we shouldn’t validate a political system that appears to be broken beyond repair, and that if enough people sit out the next election, the resultant scandal would bring attention to just how dissatisfied most Americans are with the current status quo.

Pretty to think so, but we all know the Village will come up with any spin they want to push their agenda no matter how transparent it is. Some years back, the well-known slimebag George Will smirkingly claimed that consistent low voter turnout for elections “proved” that people were perfectly content with the governments they were getting because, after all, if they were truly unhappy with the way things were, then obviously they’d vote against it, wouldn’t they?

That was years ago - at least during the 90’s; he may even have made that claim during Reagan’s stint in the White House, I can’t remember - and the media has only gotten worse in the intervening years. I suspect that particular line of bullshit is pretty much what we’d be hearing nonstop if this were to actually happen, and as little as, say, 10% of the populace turned out for the next Presidential election. Those of us who actually pay attention to politics would know better, but we constitute a minority at best.

2.) Vote. So we all do our civic duties and participate, but “more and better Democrats” has been the gameplan (more or less) at least since Clinton, and probably since Carter, and where is it getting us? A genuinely radicalized Republican Party flirting more and more openly with fascism, with a corporate Dem Party scurrying after the nutcase right as they race ever further into freakshow extremism, squealing, “Wait for us! Wait for us!!” pausing only to backhand their own base of voters again and again. Aren’t y’all getting sick of this routine? I know I am.

3.)“Let the Bastards Burn It All To the Ground”: If it’s going to happen anyway, this theory goes, just let the Rethugs destroy the country and finally teach the American people what’s what. I don’t want it to come to this, but even if I did, I’m not sure things would work out so neatly, anyway; if that wasn’t the end result after Bush the Lesser’s stint as President, I’m not sure what it would take to do the trick. Mind you, it did result in Obama taking the Presidency, which was at least a clear expression that people were sick of the Repubicans, whatever the reality of Obama’s subsequent actions in the White House…which is probably why Obama has been doing his best to demoralize the Dem base every chance he gets while simultaneously bending over backwards to shine the GOP’s jackboots with his tongue. Can’t have the grubby peasants getting above their place, now, can we? But if that’s the case, then why not…

4.) Take Back the Democratic Party. I suspect most of you are beginning to understand I’m not exactly an optimist, but even so, I honestly cannot see this working. The corruption is just too firmly entrenched by this point. Besides which, it now costs a fortune to run for public office, and the people who finance aspiring politicians don’t tend to be sympathetic to liberal/leftist needs or opinions. It might have been possible as recently as the 1970’s, but I just don’t see it happening now.

5.) Third Party. If a viable, new political party actually seemed to be gaining traction, I don’t doubt for a second that our beloved Democratic “leaders” and their good buddies the Republicans would openly collude in order to destroy it. And I’m sure they wouldn’t mind breaking all sorts of laws in the process.

So. Voting for Democrats is generally useless, as is abstaining from voting altogether. Voting Republican is unthinkable and is tantamount to embracing one’s executioner. The Democratic Party is impervious to reform, and third Parties are a dead end. Eesh. If anyone can come up with any sunnier outlook here, I would love to hear it.

Comment #353: John D.  on  08/16  at  07:39 PM

The “butthurt” skeptics have another voice joining their chorus today: Glenn Greenwald.

Greenwald has been a member in good standing of the butthurt squadron since roughly January 21, 2009. The odds of Greenwald writing something negative about President Obama at any given time are roughly the same as the odds that water will continue to be wet.

Boring, indeed.

Comment #354: DTGslu2K  on  08/16  at  08:40 PM

Depending on where a voter is voting, a liberal 3rd party vote could be perfectly acceptable - if the race is already a landslide either for or against the less bad of the two main options, I really don’t see anything wrong with voting the 3rd party option, not that I trust vote reporting enough to usually chance it.  But someone, in say NY or ID, who can honestly say they are sure which way the vote is going?  Why the hell not?

Agreed.

Comment #355: DTGslu2K  on  08/16  at  08:41 PM

Well, if you are against all dealbreakers, the other thing I would say about it is that I think your position is very much a minority (that most of us DO have dealbreakers) and that trying to eliminate dealbreakers from political behavior is just as quixotic as what people are accusing Nader voters of doing is.

I think that most people say they have dealbreakers, but when push comes to shove, many of those same people will move the goalposts so they can vote for someone who would otherwise be ruled out by their supposed dealbreakers.

Case in point - those who claim to be rigid deficit hawks who still voted for Bush43 in 2004 despite his record of massive deficit spending. I do think the willingness to violate one’s own stated principles in their vote occurs more frequently on the right, but the majority of self-styled ideological purists I know who rail against Democratic politicians more often than not still wind up voting for those politicians because they are objectively the lesser of two evils.

Comment #356: DTGslu2K  on  08/16  at  08:58 PM

Good point, DBK.  Personally, when I don’t want to spend time doing something as admittedly time-consuming as voting, I make sure to post 350 comments on the internet for two days straight so that people know how little care I care.

Aww, SNAP!!

Comment #357: DTGslu2K  on  08/16  at  09:00 PM

witless chum:

No enemies to left.

Uh, the meaning of that is “don’t attack those further to the left of you”, because they’re useful to shift things further left and towards you.  Not “don’t attack anyone that claims to be on the left whether they are or not.”

The same realism that tells me I have to show up and vote for the corporate Democrat with the nice smile and loathsome Treasury Department tells me that we oughtnt insult people who are fundamentally on our side.

Obama is not fundamentally on my side.  He’s merely less against me than the Republicans are.  But “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” is not generally true.

Comment #358: wnoise  on  08/16  at  09:16 PM

I think that most people say they have dealbreakers, but when push comes to shove, many of those same people will move the goalposts so they can vote for someone who would otherwise be ruled out by their supposed dealbreakers….the majority of self-styled ideological purists I know who rail against Democratic politicians more often than not still wind up voting for those politicians because they are objectively the lesser of two evils.

In that case, why is so much venom being unleashed on this thread and in this essay toward those who do have dealbreakers?  If there’re so few of us and we’re so inconsequential and all?

Comment #359: EG01  on  08/17  at  12:01 AM

(Apologies for the length, but I’ve read all the preceding comments and this has been building up.)

This post and the ensuing conversation and name-calling (really, Amanda? “Butthurt?” [eye-roll]) only serves a practical purpose if one assumes that people decide who they’re voting for 14 months ahead of the elections.

We don’t even know the name of the Republican nominee. There is a good chance that s/he will be so extreme as to make us long for the halcyon days of the Dubya Administration. We have 14 months of speeches, world events, conventions, primaries, gaffes, manufactured crises, polls, James O’Keefe costumes, robocalls, George Will columns, policy announcements, natural disasters, and political ads to get through before any of these votes we’re so jealously counting and guarding will be cast. In 14 months, these, right now, will be the good old days we’re wishing we could go back to, and we will probably be wishing that we’d been doing something other than re-fighting the 2000 election results from Florida.[1]

At least some of what’s happening here is that people are fantasizing about having a candidate in 2012 that they would like to vote for, and blowing off some steam about how disappointing Obama has been. This should be an easy impulse to relate to: most of us agree that Obama has been disappointing and that we would rather vote for a candidate who shared our beliefs than vote against one who didn’t. Contemplating protest votes 14 months in advance of the election is a much better time to do so than two weeks before the election, and condemning those who do so now is only going to make them dig in harder and commit further to locking in their vote. So this post was strategically stupid, besides being badly argued and noxiously smug.

This would be a really good moment to try to identify progressive candidates the Pandagonatariat can approve of and raise funds for, try to push the Overton Window to the left by identifying progressive ideas we support and coming up with radical policy based on those ideas, try to influence Obama to compromise after negotiations begin, rather than before,[2] try to push progressive policies at state or local levels with the elected officials who are already there, or try any number of other things that might be useful in the long run. Instead, the best Amanda can do is remind us we’re all going to die and call us whiny babies over votes we won’t cast for fourteen months. Which verges on comically unproductive.

And, as Dilan Esper keeps trying to explain, people’s votes are their own. People, weighing all the factors they feel are relevant, set their own standards for who is a vote-worthy candidate. You may disagree with where they draw the line, and you can try to argue them out of it, but it remains their line to draw, and throwing tantrums that everybody won’t just look at things the way you do is not going to change that, it’s just going to make them stop listening to you.

I do understand that if you’re convinced that voting for Obama, however distasteful, is the best decision available, then it’s frustrating to see people talking about casting protest votes for a Republican. I think virtually all of us would agree that Janet Rhodes is either dishonest, delusional, or profoundly stupid. But there’s so much that’s going to happen between now and the election, it doesn’t matter. The Republican race has had, what, five front-runners so far?[3] And five months to go before the Iowa Caucuses? We could at least wait until after losing the election to blame each other for the loss. It is traditional.

-

[1] Kudos to atheist @130 for correctly identifying the Nader conversation as “the shingles of the progressive blogosphere.” If only we’d gotten the vaccine.
[2] I know we’re all convinced that he wouldn’t listen anyway, but what percentage of the Pandagonian public do you think has ever written a letter to the Obama White House? Called a Congressperson? It’s probably not 100%.
[3] (Romney, Trump, Cain, Bachmann, Perry?)

Comment #360: mr_subjunctive  on  08/17  at  12:41 AM

@EG01: because people want to believe what they’re doing is right, and because people want to be understood.  Because people want to feel like they have control over what is happening to them.  Sometimes, because that feeling of wanting to control what’s happening around them extends to wanting to control the people around them, whether that desire comes from fear or stress or entitlement, and whether it manifests as a desperate threat to vote Republican or as a desire to just shake some damn sense into the person who’s going to end the world with their idealism, why the fuck can’t they see the one thing that’s going to save us or at least let us hold out a little longer?

It was a rhetorical question, wasn’t it?

Anyway, peace, people.  I trust you’ll try to make the right decision and I don’t want to want to make you do anything.

Comment #361: Nimravid  on  08/17  at  01:08 AM

And that’s the big comeback?  “Nyah nyah nyah gotcha”?

I get to define what wastes my time for myself.  You guys really are the low-hanging fruit of blog commenters.

Comment #362: DBK  on  08/17  at  09:43 AM

Takes one to know one, DBK.

Comment #363: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  08/17  at  10:33 AM

I don’t know about low-hanging fruit, but definitely unwilling to face up to reality.  Notice, not one comment actually responding to the links providing background for the doubts re obama.  If its just so obvious why we should be compelled to vote for him, they’re utterly and completely failed to produce anything convincing. But it sure was easy to find reason to doubt.

Comment #364: Rare Vos  on  08/17  at  11:48 AM

Perhaps we should contemplate the death of this thread.

Comment #365: Yamara  on  08/17  at  12:14 PM

dum dum da dum…  A dirge anyone?  Or is that too religious rather than just cultural?

Comment #366: helen w. h.  on  08/17  at  12:42 PM

Greenwald has been a member in good standing of the butthurt squadron since roughly January 21, 2009. The odds of Greenwald writing something negative about President Obama at any given time are roughly the same as the odds that water will continue to be wet.

Okay, sure, and bear in mind that Obama is the guy I’m going to vote for in 2012 (I still vote, ceremonially, the way some Catholics keep going to Mass after they’ve quit believing in God).  All the same, does Obama have to stand right under the showerhead?  He’s a smart man.  He knows water is wet.

Comment #367: bekabot  on  08/17  at  02:52 PM

“I don’t know about low-hanging fruit, but definitely unwilling to face up to reality.  Notice, not one comment actually responding to the links providing background for the doubts re obama.  If its just so obvious why we should be compelled to vote for him, they’re utterly and completely failed to produce anything convincing. But it sure was easy to find reason to doubt.”

My position hasn’t even been about Obama, really.  I said that I think voting is s waste of time, so I am not voting.  Apparently, that’s massively painful to these people.  Also, I am supposedly “butthurt” because I don’t think not voting is a form of mental illness.  And all these weirdly emotional jokers went into tizzies and threw hissy fits over it.  Their arguments, in a nutshell, have been,  “You should vote because if you don’t vote you should shut the fuck up.”  Yeah, low hanging fruit is a good term for it.

Comment #368: DBK  on  08/17  at  03:19 PM

Take us out, Chuck.

I said that I think voting is s waste of time, so I am not voting.

You also engaged in mind reading here, do you do balloon animals as well?:

By the way, the reason I was first to comment is that I just happened to click over to pandagon at the right moment.  Amanda knew somehow that I would be the first one with my comment because she knew exactly when I was going to take a break from work and look at her web site.  She even knew how long it would take me to read her posting and type my comment, beating the others to the punch.  That Genius Dust is great stuff.

 

Comment #369: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  08/17  at  03:41 PM

Whoops!

Comment #370: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  08/17  at  03:51 PM

Hurray!  And Dark Avenger wins the nougat for bringing the stupid with a vengeance.

Yes, I wrote that.  And anyone who can scroll this page can see why I wrote it and what it was written about, so taking it out of context that way is a failed tactic that only the truly dumb would attempt.  Here’s a clue:  if you are going to take something out of context and try to use it against someone, don’t do it on the same page where anyone can find the full context.

Here’s what Amanda wrote:
“I knew in my heart of hearts that the first comment would be someone suffering from the all-or-nothing mentality saying, “Nuh-uh!” “

To which I responded with the sarcasm quoted in @370 by Dark Avenger Fool.  Way to go, DV.  You really know how to be the low hanging fruit.

Comment #371: DBK  on  08/17  at  04:19 PM

And Dark Avenger wins the nougat for bringing the stupid with a vengeance.

Yes, I wrote that.  And anyone who can scroll this page can see why I wrote it and what it was written about, so taking it out of context that way is a failed tactic that only the truly dumb would attempt.

And you wrote this as well:

I have been less interested in this blog because of it.  I can go talk to my neighbor’s teenager if all I want is adolescent snotting off.

But, you still continue to return here, like a dog to its’ mire.

“I knew in my heart of hearts that the first comment would be someone suffering from the all-or-nothing mentality saying, “Nuh-uh!” “

To which I responded with the <strike>sarcasm</strike>  quoted in @370 by Dark Avenger Fool.

DBK, thanks for all your feedback, I’m sure you feel better than you did when you started reading this thread.

 

Comment #372: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  08/17  at  06:04 PM

butthurt

Comment #373: Sam Holloway  on  08/18  at  06:00 AM

If I point out that this is a tone-deaf, misogynistic, and elitist appropriation of a right-wing talking point, does that qualify as butthurt?

Comment #374: Sam Holloway  on  08/18  at  06:03 AM

Sam, thanks for your concern for my emotional well-being.  Now what do the kewl kidz call that?  “Concern trolling”?  I felt fine when the thread started and I feel fine now.  The whole thing has been a hoot, actually, and I think we should all get together to hurl gratuitous insults at one another again some time.  I’ll bring the potato salad.

Comment #375: DBK  on  08/18  at  09:45 AM

I think we should all get together to hurl gratuitous insults at one another again some time

We need to get a big pillow so that your butthurt can be provided for, as under the ADA you need a special accommodation so that you can spew your vitriol and hate along with the rest of us ordinary folks.

Comment #376: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  08/18  at  10:54 AM

So that’s settled; I’ll bring the potato salad and DV will bring the stupidity.

Comment #377: DBK  on  08/18  at  01:07 PM

How can we miss you if you won’t go away, DBK?

if we can’t solve any problems
Why do we lose so many tears
Whoa oh so you go again
When the leading man appears
Always the same theme
Can’t you see we’ve got everything going on and on and on
And everytime you go away
You take a piece of me with you
(Oooh)
And everytime you go away
You take a piece of me with you

You go on and go free
Maybe you’re too close to see
I can feel your body move
But it doesn’t mean that much to me
I can’t go on singing the same theme
‘Cause you can’t see we’ve got everything
Baby, even though you know that
Everytime you go away
You take a piece of me with you
You just don’t care girl
Everytime you go away
You take a piece of me with you
‘Cause you can’t see we’ve got everything
Baby, even though you know that
Everytime you go away (everytime you go away ooh)
(Everytime you go away)

Yes, I’ll bring the potato salad.

Comment #378: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  08/18  at  02:01 PM

From a VastLeft cartoon entitled “Power Tools”:

A: Remember saying Obama would do great things?

B: Turns out, the presidency’s a weak, irrelevant office.

A: Then, no worries if he’s not re-elected!

B: And let Michelle Bachmann become the most powerful person in the world?!

/rimshot

More butthurt from Glenn Greenwald:
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/08/18/obama_v_bush/index.html

That evidence leads to the rational conclusion that he is not actually committed to (or, worse, outright opposes) many of the outcomes which progressive pundits assume he desires.

Comment #379: Sam Holloway  on  08/18  at  03:21 PM

Sam, you’re going to make DBK cry, or try to be sarcastic, and I don’t know which state is the more pitiful one.

Comment #380: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  08/18  at  05:52 PM

No matter what I do, I cannot sink to the pitiful depths of the Democratic base.  I’ve never seen a more smug and self-satisfied bunch of losers, not even among the dejected and Hope™-ful—sorry, hopeful; not even Cub fans are that bad—stumbling out of Wrigley Field.

How about another helping of butthurt for the peeps?
Symptoms of the Bush-Obama Presidency

The record shows impressive continuities between the two administrations, and nowhere more than in the policy of “force projection” in the Arab world. With one war half-ended in Iraq, but another doubled in size and stretching across borders in Afghanistan; with an expanded program of drone killings and black-ops assassinations, the latter glorified in special ceremonies of thanksgiving (as they never were under Bush); with the number of prisoners at Guantanamo having decreased, but some now slated for permanent detention; with the repeated invocation of “state secrets” to protect the government from charges of war crimes; with the Patriot Act renewed and its most dubious provisions left intact—the Bush-Obama presidency has sufficient self-coherence to be considered a historical entity with a life of its own.

 

Comment #381: Sam Holloway  on  08/18  at  08:00 PM

Let’s beat this dead horse until it gets butthurt, or at least until something more amusing comes along.

Comment #382: Sam Holloway  on  08/19  at  10:14 AM

*, I cannot sink to the pitiful depths of the Democratic base*

Good plan, arguments that include “nanny nanny boo-boo, stick your head in doo-doo” rarely get a response there.

Comment #383: elpathos  on  08/19  at  12:15 PM

I don’t know what any of that means, elpathos, but if you’re in your early ‘60s, you might want to get ready to stick your own head in some of Barack Obama’s Bipartisan Compromise Doo-Doo.

Obama Pushes for Modifications to Medicare and Social Security

“Modifications.”  Heh, heh.

Comment #384: Sam Holloway  on  08/19  at  01:43 PM

  Dilan, I’m back from your vacation and I would like to respond to your argument about deal breakers. I think that you could argue against deal breakers on the grounds of not making things worse. Yes, LBJ and possibly Hubert Humphrey were terrible on foreign policy issues. However, it was readily apparent that Nixon would be much worse. Nixon’s enlargement of the Vietnam War to include Cambodia gave us the Pol Pot regime. Plus, we would have gotten better Supreme Court justices with LBJ or Hubert Humphrey. A person might have to ignore something that would be a deal breaker if the alternative would only make things worse. If the alternative is better or is likely to maintain the status quo than a person can have deal breakers.

Comment #385: Lee  on  08/20  at  06:07 AM
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