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Next entry: The Dumbest Man In Public Life, Perhaps Ever Previous entry: Okay, one quick post on this nonsense

The invisible sinners

The debate about marriage continues to rage at Double X, though of course it’s moving as these things do towards a romantic defense of the institution.  This is where something seemingly inevitable kicks in, with both Jessica Grose and Bonnie Goldstein arguing that marriage is great because it’s so nice to have a partner to live with. They’re doing this in response to Caitlin Flanagan, who wrote a typically incoherent defense of marriage (we need it because of the children! but divorce—-which can only happen if you get married—-is bad for children!) Goldstein’s response in particular befuddled me.

Responding to Jess about the value of marriage in a moment when so many women writers are wondering why they bothered, to be sure it is far less complicated to run your life alone than with a partner.  I’ve been single and self-sufficient and I’ve been married and co-dependent. For me, at least, married is better. Marriage is the place I can completely unpack: where I use my most personal of inside voices and reveal emotion inappropriate anywhere else.

Then she talks about how she and her husband can fight at home and then hide it in public, which I hope is true for her sake, since everyone knows the pleasures of being around a tense couple that finds ways to snipe at each other passive aggressively, making you wish they’d just yell at each other already.  But what amazed me about this argument is how much it rests on an obvious falsehood—-that there are distinct groups of people called “single” and “married”.  I realize that there’s still a formal assumption that these are two distinct groups, a collective simplifying lie for both tax forms and for determining who’s going to be frog-marched to catch the bouquet or garter belt at weddings.  In those cases, I either don’t care (tax forms) or don’t feel a strong need to fight, preferring to hide instead (bouquet tosses).  But outside of these situations, I fail to see how anyone can make a generalization like Goldstein’s, even in a short blog post, except of course to use the generalization to elide the actual focus of the conversation itself, which is, “Why do people feel like they have to get married?”

There are plenty of not-married people who are also not-single.  (Ahem.)  Goldstein, and Grose to a degree, are acting like you have two options: live alone or live in wedlock.  If you start with that assumption, then sure, marriage is an easy sell. Everyone is hip to the benefits of sharing your life with a dear friend that you also get to fuck, and while it makes me seem like I have a one-track mind, I’d put the “get to fuck” aspect ahead of the “you become a professional at hiding your anger deep down inside for company”.  But of course, the real comparison that they’re trying to avoid looking at is between marrying someone and just being in a non-formalized relationship, where you either live together or even keep separate residences but are in a committed, monogamous relationship.  Since there’s about 12 million people living together without the benefit of marriage—-and since most people who do get married lived together beforehand, and pretty much all had a monogamous, committed relationship before they went to the altar—-you can’t really claim ignorance of these options.

No, the question of, “Why marry?” is not easily answered by, “Because I want to have a partner to share my life with.”  Most couples getting married already have that, with the exception of a few fundies who practice courtship or other religious minorities that still have arranged marriages.  The reason the question continues to stick with people is because making the move from living in sin to getting married doesn’t have such a neat argument for it.  Insurance, tax benefits, making your mom happy—-now that gays have to make a pragmatic case for why they should be allowed to marry to win over people for whom equality is not reason enough, it’s becoming trendy for progressive straight people to list these as their reasons to get married.  Certainly we sinners appreciate the courtesy of this, which is done in no small part to legitimize the relationships of the unmarried, because the implicit argument is that if the only difference between married and not is tax benefits and insurance, the sinners count just as much.  In a lot of cases, the “we got married for the insurance” argument has the benefit of being true, even. 

Still, when I read stuff like the debate about marriage at Double X, I realize that most people get married still because they’re invested in this married-or-single dichotomy.  To which I’ll add, duh. I blame the diamond industry, personally.  Marriage moves product, and so marriage will continue to be flogged as the inevitable result of love.  The downside is that people are getting married when their relationships probably need to be something easier to dissolve.  To make it worse, a lot of women are encouraged (with Beyonce songs, no less!) to believe that without the shiny on your left hand, you’re not validated as a real person, and the need to have that crowds out other considerations.  In my ideal world, relationships that exist outside the marriage narrative count just as much, which would at least relieve women of the worry that there’s something wrong with them if they reach age X without having X carats decorating their body and demonstrating to the rest of the world that a man has validated their worth.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 09:27 AM • (105) Comments

I don’t have my own blog, but I recently sent this to a friend and I thought I’d share it here:

This piece refers only to “western” culture.

Marriage—marriage has existed as an institution of property arrangement and inheritance insurance for thousands of years, reinforced by the aristocracy and the church to control resources. I do NOT think it is a coincidence that as soon as three things happened:

1. The underclass (women) gained some rights
2. The church lost the ability to or ceased censoring people
3. The institution became tied to happiness and love, rather than to property

the institution began to fail and has been failing ever since. What that tells us is that either there is something wrong with the institution, with the mythos around it, or with people in general.

I do not find this depressing!!! I find it incredibly liberating, since by recognizing that the problem is not with people, but with the institution and/or the mythos, this leaves us free to love in the ways we want to love and to measure success or failure by our overall happiness rather than by an externally imposed source. My husband and I love each other, but I would hope that I continue to grow and change throughout my life, and so we might very well grow apart. If we do, and we separate from each other, well, change is always painful, and loss is a sadness, but the MARRIAGE did not fail, and WE did not fail.

Comment #1: Siobhan  on  07/05  at  10:42 AM

This post is in my view a WIN, though perhaps I am biased as someone who is going to divorce court in 3 days after 20 months of separation/waiting period BS in MD.

Comment #2: Bruce Godfrey  on  07/05  at  11:16 AM

Yeah, I should have noted that partnership doesn’t mean monogamy, either. And that the focus on marriages conceals a huge variety of possibility.

Comment #3: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/05  at  11:29 AM

It seems to me—and sometimes I realize how dumb the things I type are only after I type them—that committed non-married couples could do with a PR blitz around terminology. I know that one of the points of being non-married is that, outside of an institution with particular “rules,” people are free to invent the relationship for themselves. But in the whole social continuum of single to married, there are different degrees of partnership. Most non-married cohabitating people use the phraseology of “girlfriend/boyfriend” to describe each other, but since those words can cover territory from “pretty much just met” to “lived together for decades”—that is, if both of these descriptions can be made equal by using the same word—it makes it easier for the marrieds to elevate themselves to a different status.

That’s why I like the word “partner” for cohabitating non-married people, gay and straight.

However, as I write this, it seems like Amanda might make the argument that it’s nobody’s business but the couple’s what the particulars of their relationship are, and therefore a distinction between “just met” and “lived together forever” is not useful.

Comment #4: David B.  on  07/05  at  11:53 AM

Honestly, given the huge investment of time and resources couples sometimes make for each other, I completely believe in a legal contract that insists that one person be payed back for their investment in the other person’s professional development if everything goes pear-shaped. I know it doesn’t always (usually?) play out that way, but if, say, Partner A puts Partner B through medical school, then Partner B dumps Partner A, in theory Partner A is entitled to some remuneration if they’re married. Same if one partner suffers some serious professional setbacks in order to do the unpaid childcare / household labor that allows the other to progress with their career uninterrupted. Or if there’s a house or other major investment in one person’s name that both people need to use. It seems to me like the marriage contract could be a sensible way to protect your mutual investment in each other against worst-case-scenario, assuming you were sensible about your prenup.

Of course instead it seems to become an indenture for household service, but there are plenty of girlfriends doing their live-in boyfriend’s laundry and catering for him without a legal contract stipulating that she’s entitled to some of the rent she paid so that he could get that philosophy degree.

Comment #5: purpleshoes  on  07/05  at  11:57 AM

I got married because of insurance, and because my parents are old and I knew they wouldn’t feel like I was “safe” until I got hitched, and because my partner said he wouldn’t feel comfortable moving places or following me or vice versa for a job in the future unless we were married.  Also, my parents were always nice to my bfs but they had trouble remembering their names or taking them seriously.  I knew that if I got married they’d treat my partner more like he’s part of the family and less like a friendly visitor that’s just breezing through.
That said, I feel yucky about those reasons, and see them as kind of pragmatic and mercenary—and in some ways, bad because I was pandering to ideas that I don’t even believe in (i.e the sole legitimacy of marriage as a choice). 
Everything about the wedding itself felt patriarchal and creepster, like people were fighting over the last pieces of a chicken or something, except the chicken was me and how I was going to live my life. I can’t think of my wedding day without having a vague feeling of violation, like I was tricked or ramroaded into something I didn’t want to do. Now my in-laws try to be really nice to me, but also make horrid comments about using me as a womb-incubator for their future sons (clearly not in those exact terms). ugh ugh ugh. They assume that since we said yes to one bourgeois, oppressive insititution, it’s just a matter of time before we roll over on all the others (kids, split level house in the suburbs, car, me staying home.) I hate it hate it hate and it make me want to just not even talk to them when they’re in this mode.  Seriously, if they ask when we’re having kids again I’m telling them all that a doberman pinscher ripped out my ladybits as a child and I can’t have kids.  I cannot stand it.  Especially since having kids and marriage seemed to work out so well for them.  (The two parents can’t stand each other and have turned each other into hollow shells of their former selves)

If you don’t have a prior medical condition and you don’t need insurance, what’s the point of marriage? It just opens you up to being treated like community property by respective families. Even my parents, paragons of equality, have taken to weird sexist thoughts.
In hindsight, I vote no!

Comment #6: t-ster  on  07/05  at  12:00 PM

To which I’ll add, duh. I blame the diamond industry, personally.  Marriage moves product, and so marriage will continue to be flogged as the inevitable result of love.

Death to the wedding-industrial complex!

Comment #7: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  07/05  at  12:06 PM

If you don’t have a prior medical condition and you don’t need insurance, what’s the point of marriage? It just opens you up to being treated like community property by respective families.

This has fairly terrible implications not just for the married but for single people, too. By which I mean, if being married has suddenly made you important enough that everyone gets a claim to you, what does that say about the status of the lowly ignored single person?

I find it disgusting that, in the framework of our society, one has to join certain institutions (marriage, employment) to have their basic needs (i.e. insurance of medical care) met at a reasonable price.

Comment #8: David B.  on  07/05  at  12:06 PM

David B. I agree. Before I was married, I didn’t think much of it.  But now that I’m married i look back on all those weird things we privilege for married people, the way we make single people invisible, and I feel kind of sick. Of course, I also don’t enjoy having more people up in my business either. It’s a lose-lose for everybody.

Comment #9: t-ster  on  07/05  at  12:12 PM

Reading this I feel like I’m stumbling repeatedly over my NHS-privilege. It’s one thing to know Americans have to pay for medical care, and another to read a post on marriage and be brought up short by the nine million obvious-if-you-experience-it pitfalls of insurance, insurance, insurance, permeating a whole bunch of hitherto invisible nuances. And it rather sharpens your argument - if you’re saying, ‘I can see why someone would get married without believing in the institution - insurance’, then I’m like, hey, in the UK there is just NO POINT. Fascinating.

Comment #10: Romola  on  07/05  at  12:23 PM

My partner and I just celebrated our 8th anniversary (yay us!). During that time we’ve discussed marriage, and agreed that we’ll probably get married eventually, but so far just haven’t had any compelling reason to. I think she has a much more defined list of pros and cons, but my thinking on the matter is more ambiguous; I figure there are specific legal-recognition issues - power of attorney in medical emergencies, joint ownership of property or other large-value assets, probably something having to do with children that I’m not aware of - that just don’t or haven’t applied to us (yet! as we get older I worry more about the “medical emergency” thing). And as for weddings, it’s been pretty clear to me since I was a kid that there are two main purposes for them these days for people in our social/economic class: 1. the whole social recognition/celebration aspect, which I have a certain amount of respect for b/c these types of cultural rituals are powerful and affect people in unexpected ways; and 2. getting a bunch of free stuff for the young couple to set up their new household with. Number one doesn’t have much of a draw on us (e.g., neither of our sets of parents are even pestering us about it, much less pushing for it (divorced, all of them - sometimes more than once)), and we’re both financially stable enough that number two is a non-issue.

As an approaching-middle-age DINK couple we’ve established which boundaries are hard (separate bank accounts and debt) and soft (household expenses aren’t tracked, they even-out in the long run) and have a nicely functioning relationship that could probably uncharitably be described as “friends with benefits,” even though the romance and affection element is definitely present. For me getting married is mainly reduced to making some big romantic gesture, and even if one day I succumb to some sentimental urge and propose (and I’ve come close a few times) I wouldn’t be surprised if she just gives me a big kiss and says “That’s so sweet of you to ask! We’ll do it eventually, I’m just happy knowing you love me that much.” And no diamonds will be involved.

Comment #11: Geocrackr  on  07/05  at  12:23 PM

Wait, why aren’t “insurance, tax benefits, making your mom happy” good enough reasons to get married? If being single-yet-partnered offered me these benefits I’d be happy to still be single.

I just got married a month ago and my day to day life and relationship are identical to before we got married, which was exactly what we wanted. I do believe that having a wedding was a meaningful emotional event for us and our families (like a coming of age event), but I would have been fine with having a party to announce to our friends and family that our relationship was the most serious and committed as relationships can get without involving the government (we’re not religious, so God was not informed), but the legal benefits make so many things easier, so then the question becomes ‘Why not?’

As many problems are there are with marriage *generally*, they don’t really apply to *me* specifically. Maybe I’m silly and naive (obviously few newlyweds think that their marriage will fail!), but I’m not more afraid of getting divorced than I was of breaking up. What I want for my life works with having a marriage, but I think it’s foolish that everyone is expected to couple up and end up in this particular sort of relationship. There should be a million more options other than ‘single’ and ‘married’, but I’m not going to opt out of health benefits now because the government unfortunately doesn’t accommodate other relationship arrangements.

(This does not even get into that it’s easier to be married than single-yet-committed because you don’t have to explain to fucking everyone why you aren’t married. People understand “married” and question anything else. It’s bullshit and shouldn’t be this way, but it is and I can’t pretend like it’s not a perk that my married status means I’m not hassled about it. Now I get hassled about when I’m having a baby though, so maybe it’s a wash…)

Comment #12: ElleDee  on  07/05  at  12:25 PM

Hi ElleDee,
I got married a year ago, and my relationship with my husband is pretty much the same…he still cleans more, cooks more, and treats me like an equal, etc…so it’s not that the day-to-day existence of life has changed. What’s changed is how families treat us, and how, if I get unhappy, leaving just becomes a much more remote option because of the logistical difficulties.  Figuring out divorce laws and going through the meat grinder of an ugly legal battle is just way worse than just checking out and having your partner throw your stuff out the window, and that being that.

I guess I feel like, its not that insurance and parent appeasement are not legitimate reasons, per se, but that they are unfairly skewing the case for marriage…kind of like subsidies on corn, which unfairly make it seem like it’s cheaper when it’s not.  What I feel is that the institution on its own, “divorced” of the legal benefits, is not better for couples or their relationships. So in the short term, indiivduals may make the rational decision to get hitched, but as a society, we need to step up and remove the “price distortions” that make it seem like a good buy when it’s not.

Comment #13: t-ster  on  07/05  at  12:38 PM

t-ster, I agree, but the focus of these fights is always about marriage reform and not about elevating other non-married relationships and that seems so backwards to me. If everyone decided tomorrow that getting married was a crock, but no one got around to fixing the laws so that non-married people had insurance and hospital visitation rights, etc, etc, what’s the point?

Comment #14: ElleDee  on  07/05  at  12:59 PM

I realize that most people get married still because they’re invested in this married-or-single dichotomy.

Oh yes. There’s this overwhelming idea amongst women, even so soi-disant feminist ones, that partnered/married = successful/single = horrid unwomanly failure, which is laughable when you actually look at reality, but there you go.

I used to puzzle over why women who had endured horrible marriages that did nothing but sap them on every level - emotional, financial and career-wise, nearly always manage to dive headlong back into the institution with indecent haste. Then I realised a lot of them basically feel, for want of a better word, un-womaned and of lesser status by divorce and another marriage (even to a man as bad as the last) is a boost to their sense of femininity and a blatent attempt to claw back their previous higher social status or whatever. I’ve seen this go on too many times at close quarters not to reach this conclusion, unfortunately and it never ends well. It’s as if another white dress, another ceremony, another plethora of bouquets, another new last name and assorted wedding froufroula will heal all the damage marriage no.1 (on in some cases I know, 1,2 or even 3) inflicted on them the first time. It won’t. Ever. Staying single and clawing back you self-respect single will, but they’ve been sold a bill of lies about how marriage is the pinnacle of feminine achievement so that’s basically that.

I’ve just found out through an absolutely bizarre series of coincidences that the husband of a friend of mine has cheated on her, lied to her about cheating on her and she doesn’t know. A bunch of her friends know, but she’s blissfully unaware. This is a woman who really, really, believes in the institution of marriage and in HER marriage in particular and one who I’ve had to grit my teeth with many times on the issue because she’s so effing conservative on this issue, unlike all others. I’m not going to be the one to tell her but to me she’s just one in the endless number of ‘feminist’ women who have an socially-induced blind spot when it comes to relationships and marriage.

Comment #15: killerrobot  on  07/05  at  01:07 PM

We got married for insurance lo those many years ago, and I have always told the starry-eyed romantic women at work that had I been in better health at twenty-two, I would still be living in sin with the same guy in my thirties. They have never liked that answer. They want heart balloons and anthropomorphic woodland creatures and a poofy dress and promises that A Wedding Will Make It Better.

(Personally, I wanted cake when we got married, and baby, I got cake.)

(Also, just looking at my wedding ring should knock any notions of mass-market romance out of their heads. These women don’t seem to believe that my lack of a Rock of Gibraltar on my left hand does not indicate a lack of happiness and lasting commitment.)

(Suckers.)

But still, keeping in mind that I don’t believe we would have married if I’d had health insurance 10 years ago, I am glad that we were married after a recent experience. My husband was taken to the emergency room and had to be in the ICU for a day, followed by several days in regular care. Because of that stupid simple term “wife,” I was allowed to make medical decisions for him and stay by his side for the ordeal. Nobody questioned me. This is in stark contrast to one of his coworkers, who had his longtime partner escorted out of the hospital at the end of visiting hours every night for the length of his stay, despite her having power of attorney.  It was unfair and awful and they’re investigating a lawsuit, but it was food for thought.

Comment #16: Ticky  on  07/05  at  01:10 PM

I think we need both: I think that marriage should involve less obligation and “ha ha you’re trapped” elements, and non-married states should allow more elective benefits that are easy to opt into. it seems to me the only time when society has any interest in putting even moderate pressure on people to stay together is where there are kids are involved, so why do we make it so hard to get out of marriage in general? basically i think you should be able to pick and choose who you offer certain types of benefits to, without regard to what the relationship is legally.  And i think everyone should have insurance. period.

Comment #17: t-ster  on  07/05  at  01:10 PM

Figuring out divorce laws and going through the meat grinder of an ugly legal battle is just way worse than just checking out and having your partner throw your stuff out the window, and that being that.

T-ster, I’m gong to pick on you for a minute, because I keep seeing people say this and it always strikes me as the most naive thing people say.

If you lived with your boyfriend for 10 years and never got married, do you really think that ending the relationship would be as simple as having him throw all of your stuff out of the window?  There would be no other legal entanglements between you after that amount of time?  You would have no resentment whatsoever over having, say, paid more of the rent while he was in graduate school?  He wouldn’t sue you to get back what he paid while you stayed at home because you were unemployed during the recession?  If you’ve been paying half the mortgage all of that time, you aren’t going to resent that he gets to keep the house and doesn’t have to pay you a dime because it’s in his name and you have no legal right to it?

Yes, ending a relationship of a few years is (relatively) easy.  But the longer things go on and the more entangled your lives and finances become, the harder it becomes to end things whether you’re married or not.  And if you’re not married, you have very few legal protections if things do go wrong.

Sorry, but I have to laugh when people blithely assume that they can live with someone for 20 years and if it ends, it’s no big deal and no one will get hurt because they never got married.  That’s not how human beings work.

Comment #18: Mnemosyne  on  07/05  at  01:14 PM

I think a lot of younger people are ambivalent about the value of marriage, but family expectations are strong enough that it’s just not worth the trouble of taking a principled anti-marriage stand. 

It sucks that people who accept the validity of all types of relationships are tacitly supporting the culture that marginalizes non-married people when they get married, but that’s how lots of unjust cultural institutions are propagated even among enlightened people.

I’m not sure what the solution is, except that in the future people will hopefully feel less pressure from older generations (and culture-at-large) to validate the hegemony of marriage.  We should definitely start by rebelling against the wedding industry that markets marriage as the ultimate fashion accessory.

Comment #19: charles w  on  07/05  at  01:15 PM

We got married for insurance lo those many years ago, and I have always told the starry-eyed romantic women at work that had I been in better health at twenty-two, I would still be living in sin with the same guy in my thirties.

Ticky, this is my story almost exactly—just change “thirties” to “forties”.

As for the co-worker and his partner, depending on the state, they might be able to claim “common law marriage” status, which should solve that problem.

But I agree, if there were some other legal status that conferred “next of kin” rights and responsibilities on any person of your choosing, marriage would be very, very rare.

Comment #20: Dorothy  on  07/05  at  01:25 PM

Mnemosyne, perhaps a ten year relationship is, on average, harder to end than a 2 year relationship, but it doesn’t have to be as even hard as ending a 2 year marriage—it’s still possible for you to split, walk out on the relationship and form new ones with others without being dishonest about your relationship status.  But ending a marriage, even if it’s an amicable split, almost always requires hiring a lawyer and at the least finding out what the laws are in your state, and there’s often a waiting period between separation and finalization. And you can’t honestly enter into new relationships without disclosing your status, which other pepole will perceive as “still married.” After the divorce, some segments of society will perceive you as “damaged goods.”
Plus, as someone who went from having “no financial entanglements” to having many, I can say that marriage is an unnatural, hyper-sharpening of entanglements, kind of like some sort of exponential increase in ties, whereas the ones formed over the course of a ten year relationship are more likely to evolve naturally, out of need and the demands of a particular situation, rather than getting a bunch of new obligations/privileges wholesale.

Comment #21: t-ster  on  07/05  at  01:29 PM

siobhan and others tempted to make historical generalizations -

From what I remember of my readings in medieval social history, what anthropologists call “companionate marriage” (the partners close in age, marrying in the early 20s, and setting up their own household apart from elders) has been the rule in NW Europe since the 12th century at the latest. That model of marriage is steadily becoming global.

Also, medieval canon (Church) law defined marriage as a matter of the *intention* of the two parties *and nothing else*. To be considered legally married by Church courts the following were NOT required

—witnesses
—a ceremony
—a priest

all that was required was

—exchanging words of present consent (“I marry you now”)
—exchanging words of future consent (“I will marry you at some future time”) followed by sexual intercourse (again, without witnesses required)

The monastic scholars who conceived marriage law were incredibly idealistic and enamored of notions of individual intention (recovered from ancient texts, but very new to them) as the basis of true morality.

Reams of surviving documents of ecclesiastical court cases show this idealism to have been a legal nightmare. Think thousands of he-said, she-said, no third-party witnesses scenarios. Words of consent exchanged while drunk, or just to get into another’s pants, etc.

Ceremonial weddings did occur, but they were for mercantile and aristocratic elites, for whom an expensive public announcement of a Church-endorsed marital bond was affordable and useful.

States began to assume legal oversight of marriage in the later fourteenth century, and on a large scale during the Reformation. And the Church of Rome of course changed its understanding, too.

Comment #22: wapsie  on  07/05  at  01:34 PM

I’ve been single and self-sufficient and I’ve been married and co-dependent. For me, at least, married is better.

wait wait wait. so she is seriously saying codependent is better than self-sufficient. she needs a therapist, not a spouse. sigh.

Comment #23: chibi  on  07/05  at  01:48 PM

Staying single and clawing back you self-respect single will, but they’ve been sold a bill of lies about how marriage is the pinnacle of feminine achievement so that’s basically that.

This. That’s what I’m doing now, with therapy and writing and finding out who I am when I’m not T’s wife or C’s wife.

Unfortunately (or fortunately?) my parents have been together for over 40 years, and still have a great marriage. That is what I wanted for myself. It didn’t happen and I envy them massively.

I think I did buy into the lie of society, that Being Married Is It! Then I think about all the tings I accomplished and did while single these past couple of years, and I know it isn’t true. Just need to convince my deeper gut.

Comment #24: Bethynyc  on  07/05  at  01:48 PM

since everyone knows the pleasures of being around a tense couple that finds ways to snipe at each other passive aggressively, making you wish they’d just yell at each other already.

Heh ... I actually get a kick out of the sniping. Granted, 90% of the time it’s not Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf quality, but it’s still good entertainment when it’s a regular thing with certain couples.

No, the question of, “Why marry?” is not easily answered by, “Because I want to have a partner to share my life with.”

It is more easily answered by “Because my partner and I to enjoy the package of state-granted benefits and state-recognised familial status of being married”—benefits currently only accorded to monogamous heterosexual couples in most states.

And agreed with the others: the availability of universal healthcare would knock a major reason why people get married right off the table.

Honestly, given the huge investment of time and resources couples sometimes make for each other, I completely believe in a legal contract that insists that one person be payed back for their investment in the other person’s professional development if everything goes pear-shaped.

Fine, but in that case the contract should contain language to that effect, like any other bloody legal document—provisions for termination, indemnifications, etc. In other words, required pre-nup. Of course, that’s not romantic at all, and would make the people at De Beers (and probably Jessica Grose and Bonnie Goldstein) cry.

Comment #25: Gracchus.  on  07/05  at  01:51 PM

The more I think about it, the more I realize that the major contribution that marriage makes to a relationship is legal and financial stability. 

All other partnership benefits are available - witness “how gay couples live together for long periods of time” in places and times where marriage was not available.

I have enough long-partnered gay classmates and friends to have seen the agonizing drama that went on once marriage became an actual option and couples started to assess and argue about whether or not they should bother.  Those people are the ones we should listen to when we talk about what marriage means and does, not heterosexual columnists who bray about either children or wax romantic about stuff cohabiting couples can do too.  People like my friend Susan and her wife, the first to score a license in the US, went through enormous debate and discussion on the subject.

Comment #26: Ms Kate  on  07/05  at  01:53 PM

Of course it’s about property; originally women were part of that property, now we’re not, but there’s still a separation of property at the end of a relationship that is hard to work out even if you’re not married, but definitely if you are.

Having said that, eh—if you want to get divorced, it’s not that hard, though it can be expensive depending on the amount of property in question and if custody of kids are involved.

Marriage will be around a while, but I wouldn’t be surprised if our son, or one of his possible kids decided not to bother. Whether it will fade out entirely is an interesting question but not yet answerable; I think there will probably always be some people who marry, for religious or personal reasons, but if we get to the point where it confers no measurable benefits over simple partnering, then it will probably not be something that many do. And the language will evolve for this; has already evolved with “partner” becoming a common term.

I am married, and don’t regret it, because it made sense for us to do at the time and we’ve been happy enough in our relationship that our legal status is largely about property and rights. We don’t even wear our wedding rings, not because we’re not monogamous but because neither of us likes wearing jewelry—and we get lots of funny looks for that. If we’d met in a situation where insurance/property/financial benefits of marriage weren’t relevant, it’s very likely we wouldn’t have bothered marrying, and had largely the same relationship.

Comment #27: emjaybee  on  07/05  at  01:56 PM

Financial entanglements can be variable, the last long-term boyfriend I had we were together 4 years but lived separately and honestly towards the last bit the only entanglement was romantic. When that left, there was little to do except recover a few personal items from each other residences and move on. This relationship we’ve been together 5.5 years and living together for 5 of them, and I’m not sure how much longer it will go on, and the thought of the financial and ‘life’ disentanglement is daunting. What do you do with pets? With mutual furniture? Savings accounts? With debts that you went into with “we’ll work on it together, honey!” thoughts? I’m glad that I won’t have lawyer fees and court dates to also contend with as well, but easy is hardly what I call this situation.

As to the original post, I don’t think marriage soley for pragmatic reasons is that bad. Because truly, what is the difference between a legal wedding and a handfasting? You announce your intentions to your God(s), to your friends and family, make spiritual commitment, etc. However, the legal reasons are real, so I don’t see being pragmatic is being icky and mean. If they weren’t there, insurance, hospital visitation issues, etc. would not the wedding only be for the above reasons - public announcement of love and devotion? That isn’t so bad either.

Comment #28: Tenya  on  07/05  at  02:03 PM

Because of how I was raised (LDS/Mormon) I had a tunnel vision wedding vision in my late teens-early twenties. And by the grace of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, got blessed with the commitment phobic boyfriends who were unsure about marriage. And now have completely different ideas about marriage than when I was young, although my parents and non-sibling-relatives all push for it every time I visit.

I don’t blame the diamond industry. At least not for me. I never wanted a rock like that, and my reception and dress ideas were decidedly non-trad from the get-go. But religion and the culture I grew up in, made it pretty clear that your life started at Getting Married, and you weren’t an adult until you did so. And when your religious culture ties getting married to being able to boink, you can bet a lot of kids were getting married just so they could finally work out those hormones. A third of my graduating class in Mormonland had married by the time I hit twenty. By the time I got to my ten year high school reunion, I was one of three unmarried people at the event. (We had about two hundred attendees out of a class of 900.)

I definitely have different ideas now. I would like to be married for the legal benefits, as most people note, but if I could get all of them without being married, I’d probably take that option. I remember most of the folks in Utah grousing about how “partner” just seemed a silly and soulless term while “husband” and “wife” were more romantic, and now I think they were full of shit. (Well, they probably DID think that, but now I just think having a partner seems like a better deal than being a wife. Being a wife has historically sucked. And I’m not just saying that because I spent my Independence Day watching The Tudors.) My boyfriend and I have discussed how things shake down in our house, how we take on chores (he does the kitchen, I do the bathroom, we try to maintain equality), how we divide up expenses, and so on, and it really does feel like we’ve achieved some kind of partnership based on equality rather than what traditional gender roles would have forced on us. The term “partner” seems more like a promise to treat each other as equals. (We are also fond of Party B, ever since those twits in California protested the gay-friendly marriage license forms.)

When we do get married, we’re stripping out any connotations of ownership. I told John that he is not to ask my dad for my hand in marriage, no matter what my parents hint. I will SIT down with my parents and tell them that John is going to be joining the family via ME, not that they are giving me to him. There will be no official ring, engagement or wedding—although we might use my octopus tentacle ring for a ceremony. (Which I already own, and which I bought for myself.)  The vows will be about partnership and equality, and there will be no mention of God, because we’re both atheists. There will be no Dad walking me down the aisle, although both my parents are welcome to watch. My brother will be my Maid of Honor, my best friend my Matron. My dress will not be white—if it is camo, it is because I like camo, not because I view weddings and marriage as a battleground. No bouquet toss, no garter toss, no cake to cut and shove in the partner’s face. (Of ALL the wedding traditions, the cake shoving is one of the ones that makes me itch the most.) And yes, I will keep my name, my boyfriend will keep his, the kids will get two alternating last names and can have the fun of figuring out what they want to do when it is their own damn turn, if that’s what they want.

Oh, and we’ll probably do a pre-nup, because both of us earn our own incomes, but we do plan on kids and if either of us takes time off to care for the kids, and a divorce happens during that time, I figure both of us should have some time to get our skills back up in order to enter the workforce. (It could be him, or it could be me, or it could be both of us. And no, we don’t plan on getting divorced—very few people do, as far as I can tell. But the people who don’t want to get a prenup because it’s not romantic or trusting….um, well, I view it like all the people who don’t want to use condoms because it’s not romantic or trusting. Protection is good for all parties.)

Comment #29: PixelFish  on  07/05  at  02:13 PM

wait wait wait. so she is seriously saying codependent is better than self-sufficient.

That creeped me out too. She’s saying that she’s happier in a psychologically unhealthy marriage than being a healthy single. Ickmo. (And as Amanda already pointed out, unmarried and single are not synonyms.)

Prenups are meant to get around a state’s laws, often because those laws require marital assets to be split evenly and don’t allow one spouse to (say) put the house and car and stock options in their own name, leaving the other spouse with nothing if they divorce.

Comment #30: mythago  on  07/05  at  02:23 PM

Wapsie,

I don’t think anyone would argue points 1 & 3—that the church disallowed divorce and that women were still chattel.  Just because a priest wasn’t required to be there to formalize the union, doesn’t mean the church allowed the marriage to end without sanctions.  And I would agree that the historical basis of “companion” marriages goes back, however, marriage was still about heirs and providing for oneself in one’s old age.  Producing babies was what one did.  Romantic love as we know it today was also an invention of the 12th-14th century, but was mostly confined to the upper classes, and was specifically NOT about your husband or wife.  As far as other cultures becoming like western culture, ok, but I am only closely acquainted with one and so that’s why I specified that was all I was talking about.

my lack of a Rock of Gibraltar
My husband proposed to me ON the Rock of Gibraltar, so I figure I get bonus points there even though I eschewed a diamond.

Comment #31: Siobhan  on  07/05  at  02:43 PM

Call me mercenary, but not getting some nice dishes, etc. for free from the friends and family, as I have no plans for marriage, really chaps my hide.  Or getting, like a cousin who tied the knot a couple years ago, enough money at her bridal shower to pay for a lovely honeymoon trip. 

Cause we could really use some dishes.  And though the blender still works fine, it is about 30 years old (no, really). 

I dunno, Grolby, what do you think?  Should we start demanding fancy china in a few years?

Comment #32: rowmyboat  on  07/05  at  02:53 PM

I don’t know if we’re conflating weddings with marriage.

If you have a long-term stable relationship, there are significant benefits to marriage - legal responsibility, which supports long-term planning.

Aside from that… Watching many old shows I always wonder, ‘why are these people married?’

Comment #33: Crissa  on  07/05  at  02:55 PM

And I would agree that the historical basis of “companion” marriages goes back, however, marriage was still about heirs and providing for oneself in one’s old age.  Producing babies was what one did.

Yep.  Need the hands to work the farm.

Pre-modern medicine and the accompanying declining child mortality rates and increasing lifespan, and before modern agriculture and mechanization, restricting women to the role of mother was, from an objective sense, a rational thing for society to do.  By modern standards it obviously isn’t because restricting women to that role is economically stupid (why would you want to keep half of your workforce out of the loop to produce children that there isn’t a need for?)

Comment #34: KeithM  on  07/05  at  03:02 PM

We got married because he was in the military and rules stated that we could not live together (or have sex, for that matter) if we were not married.  I was without health insurance at the time, though we usually joke about doing it to lower his car insurance rate (he is quite a bit younger than I and you’d be surprised how much being married drops a young man’s premium rate).  I think he was worried about me not being able to see him/recover his remains if something happened to him, though he never said it in those words.  Considering I was the only person who wrote to or called him, even though we’d met only weeks before he went into the service, I could understand why he wouldn’t want major decisions made by his next of kin.  It took him quite a while to convince me that we should get married, as I had little inclination and zero fantasies about a wedding.  I’d wasted those on the wrong guy and thereafter decided it was an absurd pastime. 

I will say one thing for the institution - when things went very wrong in the relationship, we felt some obligation to at least reach detente before deciding if we should throw in the towel.  Legal proceedings, even fairly simple, mutually agreed upon ones, are a pain in the ass.  Not that it was all that easy to walk away from the four year relationship I had prior to meeting my husband, but not having to come up with legal fees, not having financial records entangled, and not sharing large investments sure did make it easier administratively, if not less fraught emotionally.

Comment #35: Reba  on  07/05  at  03:28 PM

This is where I think the marriage equality debate is ultimately going to be healthy for all you hetero types as well.  Because it is inflicting a lot of damage on traditionalist argument that there is something magical about Your Special Day as a Bride that makes Everything Different and Better (while also implying that it is the last day that a woman gets to be in control and do things her way).  With one notable exception, the same-sex weddings I’ve attended have been very low-key events recognizing relationships of long standing, with friends and family in attendance. Some, associated with the church I attend, weren’t even an ‘event’ on their own, but inserted into a regular Sunday morning service much like a baptism or something like that. But then, we’re known for being fringe-y compared to the other churches in town.

The picture of marriage that emerges from these ceremonies is about as different as can be from the picture one gets from, just to be ridiculous, the endless stream of ‘reality’ wedding shows on the Style network.  These are relationships of equals, built up over time. The marriage license is to ensure that the relationship will be recognized in the public sphere, even by people and institutions who do not know the individuals involved.  It’s a shorthand way of saying that the couple grant each other certain rights (mostly involving property and survivorship) and take on certain responsibilities (care and support, making excruciatingly difficult medical decisions) with respect to each other. The family and friends are present to indicate their support and agreement (nice to have, but by no means necessary). It is a view of marriage as a legal recognition of one particular kind of relationship among many possibilities.  It’s not romantic. It’s a prepackaged legal contract that meets the needs of a significant number of couples. The romance is in the relationship.

Comment #36: JadedOptimist  on  07/05  at  03:29 PM

“restricting women to the role of mother was, from an objective sense, a rational thing for society to do.” 

That’s only true if you discount the possible contributions of half of your workforce. There was no objective reason why producing lots of children was the only way to deal with high mortality—especially since a large part of that mortality for women came from childbirth itself. 

It’s undoubted that those in power saw the benefits of a higher peasant population in terms of cheap labor and armies, but there is also a lot of evidence of poor families in despair over one more mouth they could not feed, abandoned children and infanticide being a problem, and poverty/social upheaval caused by only one or two children being able to get an inheritance from their parents’ farms, assuming their parents were allowed to own land. And the upper classes often had a glut of sons too, which then had to be sent into the priesthood or the military. The colonization of the New World by Europe was driven by the need to get rid of excess population, especially excess population that was politically unpopular, destitute, or criminal.

Or in other words, patriarchy was not “objectively” rational in terms of population survival; other choices could have addressed that need just as well without enslaving women. I reject the notion that human survival could only be based on the enslavement of half of humanity at any point in its history.

Comment #37: emjaybee  on  07/05  at  03:35 PM

Crissa:  “I don’t know if we’re conflating weddings with marriage. “

Certainly we shouldn’t be….but society often does. The messages fed to girls about getting married often are mixed in with the fantasy about the Big Day and being the center of attention for once, and having a lot of positive attention on one thing you did. So it’s hard to discuss why people get married without looking into the incentives and pressure that go along with the Wedding. That’s why I describe my early years view as a sort of Tunnel Vision. Because the traditional ways of looking at marriage often encourage the girls especially to think about the Wedding and the Honeymoon and NOT the actual act of being married and what comes after the wedding, and how it can limit you and your spouse.


....

Roymyboat: We’re in the opposite spot. We don’t want or need presents. And in fact, we try really hard to get our families not to give us presents during the rest of the yearly present giving celebrations. Small apartment, ya know.

....

More than anything, the thing that chaps my hide is that my choice won’t be seen as valid by a lot of the extended family until I do get married. I’m over 30, but I wouldn’t be allowed to sleep with my boyfriend at family reunions (which I don’t go to, partly for that reason) and there’s a lot of older generational tut-tutting that goes on. My relationship is seen as impermanent or not worthy of recognition, while several of my cousins have been married and divorced, but the married part means they have approval for their behaviour while unmarried me does not. At least my sibs are tolerant.

Comment #38: PixelFish  on  07/05  at  03:37 PM

Because it is inflicting a lot of damage on traditionalist argument that there is something magical about Your Special Day as a Bride that makes Everything Different and Better (while also implying that it is the last day that a woman gets to be in control and do things her way)

Really? I see queer folks getting married and reinforcing the entire “Special Day” stuff. The overall script might get gender-fucked, but the wedding planners have started destroying our bank accounts, too.

It sucks that people who accept the validity of all types of relationships are tacitly supporting the culture that marginalizes non-married people when they get married, but that’s how lots of unjust cultural institutions are propagated even among enlightened people.

When all the stuff about marriage equality was going down here in MA, a friend of mine—who comes from a single-mother family and is living in an unmarried, long-term different-sex relationship—said to me, “I feel like my family is being stigmatized all over again.”  And it was.  The pursuit of marriage, and all of the talk by folks pursuing it, about how awesome it is, and what a wonderful institution it is, well, they are doing work to reinforce marriage’s hegemony.

Comment #39: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  07/05  at  03:48 PM

Yeah, discussions of what’s good for “society” are well outside my worldview.  Societies only matter insofar as they compete with other societies; decisions are made by people.

Comment #40: Punditus Maximus  on  07/05  at  03:50 PM

PixelFish…. that sucks! I hate it when the “no sleeping in the same bed” rule is enforced at family functions. It’s such a PAIN IN THE ASS. Although it can be fun to sneak into each other’s rooms in the middle of the night.
Also re: wedding booty. most of it is useless stuff that is way too nice to use for daily life. Like Bone China. Who eats off bone china? I couldn’t even have a party fanc enough to use that stuff.
We tried to put practical stuff on our registry, like kickass power tools, but people were offended by the suggestion and still gave us useless fancy kitchenware instead. As if by buying us fancy but useless stuff, people can kind of box us into “playing house” the way they want traditional married folks to.

That’s what all wedding ware is really, up to and including the Rock: it’s expensive, useless stuff that you buy but don’t actually use, and can’t be hocked or traded in at even a fraction of the value if the marriage goes south.  That’s what always bugged me about diamonds…if it’s meant to be the man “buying” the wife, and the wife holding on to the asset in case the marriage goes south (that’s what it’s supposed to be in Judaism, at least), then it should at least be something that appreciates in, or keeps, its value.

Comment #41: t-ster  on  07/05  at  03:54 PM

France has a civil partnership law that was designed for gay couples, but in practice, heterosexual couples are taking advantage of it in huge numbers. It provides the same tax and benefits recognition as marriage, but it’s far simpler if the partnership dissolves. If such a thing were available in the United States, I’m sure a whole lot of people who eschew marriage would opt for it.

I certainly would. My boyfriend and I actually have a formal domestic partnership. We did it so I could get insurance from his previous (French-owned) company. That company was recently sold to a U.S. company, so I no longer get benefits, although I did qualify for COBRA coverage and have that now.

We have both been married before so we have no romantic notions about marriage suddenly making things all great and forever. I have zero desire to have a wedding again. Once was enough for this lifetime. If we ever do decide it makes sense to marry, I’m voting for elopement. But at the moment, this makes sense for us. Things could change. As we get older, there are more considerations with retirement and tax issues and potential health issues, but we’ll deal with that when we get there.

Comment #42: Phoebe Fay  on  07/05  at  04:01 PM

<quote>Fine, but in that case the contract should contain language to that effect, like any other bloody legal document—provisions for termination, indemnifications, etc. In other words, required pre-nup.</quote>

Gracchus, exactly. That’s exactly what I want for myself, dress or no freaking dress. It’s also why I’m a huge fan of a general civil union option parallel to a gender-neutral marriage option or some kind of Declaration of Intent to Form a Household that makes it possible for two people to become heads of a shared household whether or not there’s cake or dishes. (I am also a huge fan of social duties and obligations, reasonably and thoughtfully entered into, so I don’t think the whole “making a public commitment in front of your family and friends” is an unreasonable thing; I also don’t think that it should be a necessary precursor to forming a joined household legally.)

I’m kind of icy and practical anyway - I might be cohabiting in the near future, and my SO and I have already clarified that there will be a full legal sublease contract signed by everyone involved. Because I’m not having either one of us risk getting stuck with double rent and no legal recourse.

But personally, I’m not sure what the attraction is supposed to be in spending your entire life in a relationship that is advertised as “Well, the good news is, if one of us leaves there’ll be very little paperwork.” I understand it at least as little as I understand binding yourself into what is presently a fairly stringent legal contract with another party because your mother will cry if you don’t wear a poofy dress and exchange some jewelry.

Comment #43: purpleshoes  on  07/05  at  04:09 PM

argh, I thought I had the html fixed on that. Fail!

Comment #44: purpleshoes  on  07/05  at  04:10 PM

MAJeff, I certainly don’t disagree that the wedding planners are getting their hooks in.  The ‘one exception’ I referred to in my post was traditional to the point of parody.  But that doesn’t invalidate the lesson to be learned from couples already in long standing, healthy relationships choosing to take advantage of legal recognition that is newly available to them, namely that marriage doesn’t make a relationship better or more legitimate but is a package of legally recognized rights and responsibilities that a couple may wish to engage in.

One of the not-great reasons to get married that has shown up on this thread is to get the family off your back.  But another legitimate reason, IMHO, is to legally override the disapproval of one or both families. When my partner’s health was failing, I was fortunate that his mother came to stay with us and help take care of him so I could keep working full-time. My employer provided domestic partner benefits, so his health care was assured. His mother (a very proper Southern lady) was there to support both of us and fully backed me up when it came to decisions, including when there was no more that could be done. It’s because of her that I got through the whole thing with a bit of sanity left. I didn’t need a marriage contract. But it could have been so much different if my partner’s parents weren’t the wonderful people they are.

Comment #45: JadedOptimist  on  07/05  at  04:17 PM

These posts on marriage have been interesting.  I have been thinking (and chatting with the hubby) about why we got married when we did, and how has it made things different.

I think a large part of why we got married (and I don’t think I would have been able to articulate this at the time) was we wanted our families to understand that we were life partners and take us seriously as such.  We were at the stage in our lives when we had to make big life decisions, and people think it totally normal if you make big life decisions that incorporate your spouse, but if you plan to move across the country to for your girlfriend’s job, or you plan to financially support your boyfriend while he finishes his phd, people give you long lectures about how you are throwing your life away over some guy/girl.  It all seems sort of silly in retrospect, like who cares what our stupid families thought? We knew we wanted to be together for the long term, what did it matter what they thought?  But it was just nice to be included at the grown-up table of relationships.

How has marriage changed things?  Well, these are totally personal, not universal, and not entirely rational.  But I had some serious trust issues before we were married, and I remember that when we would have a big fight I would ask him “so do you want to break up with me now?”  Like I said, I already thought of us as life partners, but at the same time, all our friends were breaking up willy nilly with their boyfriends and girlfriends, in love one minute, broken up the next, and I just wondered could that be us?  Somehow being married gave me a greater sense of trust and security that we both really do plan to be together long-term.  Not totally rational, because of course we could still get a divorce, but it just feels like that option is much more remote.  Either was, I never really thought we would split up, but it just gave me a sense of psychological well-being that I didn’t have before (maybe I could have just starting seeing a therapist about my abandoment issues!).  I suppose we could have accomplished the same thing with just the ritual of marriage in front of friends and family and not the legal papers.

Comment #46: Mila  on  07/05  at  04:27 PM

Here’s another weird reason for me to want to be married: I have to add that while I am still semi-young, if I die without being married, my body would probably legally revert to my family, and while I like my family, we have religious disagreements, and I would be horrified to have my funeral used as an opportunity for Mormon propaganda. (The Church Handbook of Instructions states that funerals are opportunities to share the gospel and so on.) Yes, I can have a will declaring my bf executor and all that, and make him my next-of-kin, but some jurisdictions don’t necessarily recognise that.

But still when all is said and done, I wouldn’t be around to see the aftermath, and in the eventuality, I doubt it will bother me then as much then as the idea of it bothers me now. Certainly, it’s not a practical reason to rush into the matrimonial state. Just more evidence that other areas of legal status of relationships should be given equality.

Comment #47: PixelFish  on  07/05  at  04:38 PM

Someone else mentioned another point of how things change when you are married, and that is becoming a part of each other’s family.  My m-i-l was great to me prior to marriage, but I feel now like I am truly a part of their family.  My f-i-l is still an asshole and we will never be close, but he has stopped disinviting me from family gatherings.  A part of me thinks this really sucks, that they should have treated me like family with or without the wedding.  But there was something sort of magical in the wedding day, of feeling like we were joining two families together.  Again, don’t need laws for that, but sometimes the rituals help.

Comment #48: Mila  on  07/05  at  04:49 PM

On the “divorce-is-bad-for-the-children” front…clearly, what is disruptive for a child is 1) the sudden, possibly inexplicable absence of a caregiver, and 2) caregivers constantly fighting.  Obviously, these things can happen whether the parents are married or not, and in some situations, either 1) or 2) is going to happen.  Maybe parents are more willing to put in the effort to maintain a peaceful relationship if they would have to go through the legal hassles of divorce.  I have no idea whether or not this is the case.  If so, that would be a valid argument for marriage being better “for the children,” but still by no means a trump card for marriage. 

As other commenters have noted, marriage also offers legal (financial) protection, frequently to the benefit of women.  For instance, if a woman chooses to be a full-time mother and is subsequently ditched by her partner, I certainly think she deserves some remuneration for all those years of childcare, etc.  Particularly so if she doesn’t really have any marketable skills.  If a woman in this situation is unmarried, a jackass partner can easily leave her jobless, homeless,and without health insurance or retirement savings.  Not cool.

I got married about a year ago, after having lifelong reservations about the whole thing.  I decided to go ahead with it for a few reasons, which could be classified as both “romantic” and pragmatic.  First, having found someone I loved more than anything and wanted to spend the rest of my life with, I realized that I would like that person to be able to stay with me in the hospital.  I would like to be able to leave work to care for him if he were to become ill.  I would like society to place SOME value on our relationship, particularly given the generally unsympathetic nature of our fields.  (i.e., I don’t want to be told again that missing a day of work to visit my long-distance fiance is unacceptable because that’s just a “booty call.”)  And I can rail all I want about this being unfair to unmarried couples, but it ain’t gonna change anything. 

On the less-romantic front - obviously, at this point I couldn’t imagine wanting to leave my husband and/or having him try to fuck me over in a breakup.  But, being a realist, I know that shit happens.  So, I’d like to protect any joint investments that we make - like, say, buying a house.  And, to top it all off, I had unbelievably crappy health insurance and preexisting conditions.  It’s a tremendous relief to avoid $400/month prescription bills and to know that I’ll have at least some protection in the event of major illness.  (yeah, insurance is no guarantee, but at least his insurance will cover outpatient meds beyond $1000/year.  In that case, I’d be completely screwed if I developed MS or cancer.)

I don’t feel like marriage changed my relationship one bit.  (him proposing, maybe, but just because he was telling me outright that he wanted to be with me for life.  Yeah, I basically knew that before, but it was still nice to hear…but I digress.)  Like it or not, though, my relationship DID change because of a 15-minute ceremony.  That is the world we live in.

Comment #49: Kirjava  on  07/05  at  05:15 PM

siobhan and others—

I wasn’t denying that the medieval Church did not impose patriarchal expectations on women and marriage.

What I was pointing out is that the history of the institution is vastly more complicated than most people assume, especially in the west.

No doubt the peasant cultures had their own expectations of marriage, as did Mediterranean cultures(*)  The Church had others. What’s interesting is what mattered most was the *individual will*—including the individual will of the woman, too.

Let that sink in—in the official medieval Church legal definition of the married state, the interests of parents or kin, property considerations, even fertility, DID NOT MATTER. Only the God’s will working through the couple. “Whom God has joined let no man put asunder”

No, there was no divorce permitted. Elites, and often commoners too, could obtain *annullments* on various technicalities. My favorite technicality is erectile dysfunction. Church courts actually had men drop their pants and be groped by women in order to test their penile fitness.

But there was something else short of divorce. The “chaste marriage”. That’s when both partners agree to STOP HAVING SEX in order to dedicate their lives more fervently to God. In a chaste marriage, both partners gave up collecting on the MARITAL DEBT—the obligation to have regular sex with your partner (except on holy days, or during menstruation). Note that the marital debt was something a women could claim (though given the rates of death in childbirth, perhaps this was not as wonderful a thing as it seems).

The chaste marriage was a logical extension of medieval clergy’s other fundamental attitude toward marriage: It was for the spiritually weak. The BEST CHRISTIAN LIFE WAS THE MONASTIC LIFE. Marriage was a distant second place—approved by God, yes, but just not as good as the religious life proper, in which you give up all the things of this world.

I love telling this to my social-conservative students—that their notion of the nuclear patriarchal family as the foundation of Christian life is a relative INNOVATION in world history.  It’s (early) modern and dates from the Reformation era. Older “traditional religious values” are rather negative about marriage, which is after all a worldly institution shared with non-Christian cultures and involves sex, which is icky even if you don’t enjoy it.

European women’s historians generally agree that the Renaissance and Reformation eras are a period of *increasing* patriarchal authority, and of greater restrictions, both ideal and real, on women’s individual autonomy. Modernity and scientific revolution do not necessarily mean social improvement. This is a mistake assumption frequently made on the political left. The better position is that things like marriage are historically and culturally determined. They are not set in stone, but are subject to change and reinterpretation.


+++++++++++
(*)(Italian medieval bourgeois elites favored the non-companionate, extremely patriarchal man in his 30s-girl in her teens pattern often assumed to be norm throughout Europe, which it wasn’t).

Comment #50: wapsie  on  07/05  at  05:19 PM

Marriage does, indeed, move product as you say.  It is also incredibly useful for politicians and plutocrats because it keeps people’s attention more focused on their own situations and less on the bigger picture.  The cult of marriage keeps married people busy tending to their marriages (or divorces) and keeps single people occupied trying to find a spouse, or bemoaning or defending their lack of one.  I really believe that the difficulty in reforming health care lies as much in decoupling it from employment (undeniably a huge factor since it keeps workers trapped in jobs that provide insurance) as it does in decoupling it from marriage.

Comment #51: DonnaDiva  on  07/05  at  05:36 PM

I would like to be married for the legal benefits, as most people note, but if I could get all of them without being married, I’d probably take that option.

This is what I don’t understand here.  Those legal benefits are what marriage is.  There’s all kinds of other cultural baggage attached to it, but ultimately marriage is simply the net sum of these legal benefits.

I suppose one can create terms like “civil partnership” or whatever and use those instead of marriage, but those are really just euphemisms.

Basically, heterosexual people in relationships can decide to continue cohabiting in an ad hoc way, or they can decide to formalize their relationship and gain certain legal benefits.  While giving certain important legal benefits, this process of formalization also has costs - in terms of making the relationship more difficult and complicated to dissolve.  Now, those costs are real, and, combined with all the cultural baggage of marriage, certainly form a legitimate reason for people to choose not to get married.  I fully agree with the basic premise of Amanda’s original post that cohabiting without marriage is a perfectly legitimate choice, and that it shouldn’t be ignored or looked down upon, and that talking about the benefits of couplehood is not the same thing as to argue for marriage as such.

But I really don’t understand the idea “I wish I could have all these financial advantages of marriage without actually having to get married.”  Obviously some states have shitty divorce laws that make things difficult, but the main reason that marriages are difficult to dissolve is because the kind of financial and legal benefits that marriage allows also results in complicated interrelationships, and dissolving those bonds is bound to be complicated, whether or not something is called “marriage.”

It seems to me that the issue is not to make the economic benefits of marriage available to people who are not married.  The issue is that we should get rid of all the stupid cultural baggage that’s associated with marriage, so that people can make a rational choice about whether or not to get married that is not distorted by all that baggage.  The other issue, I think, would be to do what we can to make divorce as easy as possible - get rid of things like mandatory waiting periods and the like.  Obviously divorce will usually be a complicated procedure, as disentangling what has become entangled always is, and the difficulty of this is going to be enormously increased by people having children, in particular, but there’s no need for the state to make it even more difficult.  But the main issue is really the cultural baggage.

I’d also add that it seems to me that Mnemosyne’s point above makes a lot of sense.  For most people, once a relationship goes on for a certain length of time, the entanglement is going to be sufficiently extensive that ending it is going to be difficult whether or not people are formally married.  Once children come into the picture, I think, you’ve gotten to the point where the legal difficulties of ending a marriage are no longer the limiting factor.  As such, it seems to me that for any couple who wants to have children (which, like it or not, is probably still most heterosexual couples), getting married makes a lot more sense than cohabiting without marriage.

Comment #52: jlk7e  on  07/05  at  05:59 PM

Mnem, I don’t think anyone’s seriously suggesting that long term relationships don’t hurt when they break up, or that it’s not a pain in the ass reorganizing your life after being paired off.  But what we are suggesting is that it sucks even worse to have all these other legal obstacles and financial entanglements to get out of when you break up and are married.  In a lot of ways, the whole point of marriage is to set the cost of leaving high so that you avoid cutting the cord much longer.  Of course, all this is irrelevant if you stay together, but what isn’t irrelevant in that case is the legit concerns that many women have that the words “husband” and “wife” have a subtle psychological effect, as do the way that family pressures change after you marry.

Comment #53: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/05  at  06:09 PM

Wapsie, my main point was that once those three factors (1. The underclass (women) gained some rights; 2. The church lost the ability to or ceased censoring people; 3. The institution became tied to happiness and love, rather than to property) shifted, marriage as an institution of life-long tie-together began to die.  You can see this with the steady increase of the divorce rate since the 1950’s.

I’m finding your points very interesting, but I’m not really seeing how they relate to mine.  Maybe I’m missing something?

Comment #54: Siobhan  on  07/05  at  06:11 PM

But personally, I’m not sure what the attraction is supposed to be in spending your entire life in a relationship that is advertised as “Well, the good news is, if one of us leaves there’ll be very little paperwork.”

Well, isn’t that a lot more romantic than being married?  Waking up every day with the realization that it’s a choice, that they’re much more likely to be there because they want to be and not because they can’t afford to sue to get out?  If you want romance, cohabitation has plenty.

Comment #55: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/05  at  06:21 PM

Those legal benefits are what marriage is.

No, that’s not true.  Marriage is a patriarchal, heterosexist institution that was largely formed to protect male control over female bodies.  Now that this is fading, marriage—-while still being largely about sexism and turning women into the Mrs.—-has really become an institution that is defended because it’s seen as stabilizing.  But people rarely enter into these arrangements because they want to make their home lives simple, conformist, and easy to define by others, at least that’s not the overt reason.  They do it for love, but mostly for privilege.  And being married is a legal and social privilege.  The legal benefits are just part of the cookie.  I think most people marry because they want the social benefits, especially being treated like you’re a legit adult and also having the whole world know that you’re desireable enough that someone would tie themselves to you.  (This is a bigger thing for women, but women need more incentive to get married, especially since they’re still asked to bury their identity in it and take on a larger second shift.)

Comment #56: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/05  at  06:31 PM

“Also re: wedding booty. most of it is useless stuff that is way too nice to use for daily life. Like Bone China. Who eats off bone china?”


I would totally eat off bone china if I had it.  Actually, I will be putting the silver I was given as a child into use after we move next month, having recently retrieved it from my parents’ house.  Nice things are for using, or else, there’s hardly a point. 

And to relate the wedding gifts thing to the larger discussion of what marriage means culturally, I think getting nice or fancy (depending on how much your family will listen to your wishes) household goods is not trivial.  It’s a marker of adulthood to have matching, not-from-the-Salvy, good condition dishes, flatware, glasses, etc.  And broke-ass twenty something might not be able to afford that themselves.  If my grandmother hadn’t moved in with my parents, thus no longer needing the contents of her kitchen, I wouldn’t own a single plate that wasn’t chipped or that matched more than one other.

Comment #57: rowmyboat  on  07/05  at  06:33 PM

Waking up every day with the realization that it’s a choice, that they’re much more likely to be there because they want to be and not because they can’t afford to sue to get out?

I’ve known people who continue to cohabit long after the relationship is dead because their lease isn’t up or they can’t yet afford to have two separate apartments. Or who don’t end a relationship because they’ve been living off their SO and if they break up, they’ve got absolutely nothing coming to them except maybe half the DVD collection.

“The cost of leaving is high” sounds like an MRA mantra. Yes, it sure is costly to share half the assets of a marriage with your soon-to-be-ex, instead of saying “Thanks for putting me through medical school, sucker, my new $150K income and I will be moving in with my new friend Honeybun Bazooms; enjoy your job hunt”.  It is also costly to have to formally dissolve your relationship, instead of simply moving all your shit out while your thinks-they-are-still-your-SO is on a business trip, sticking them with the lease, electric bill and car payments still in their name.

I’m certainly not saying that everybody really ought to rush out and get married - as jlk7e correctly and thoughtfully points out, marriage is a fixed set of rights and responsibilities and obligations, and people may or may not want to sign on for that. But it’s daft to critique marriage by presenting a dreamy, romantic view of cohabitation.

Comment #58: mythago  on  07/05  at  06:39 PM

I just found this other blog, and have been reading through the archives, and discovered this relevant gem.

Comment #59: Siobhan  on  07/05  at  06:55 PM

Amanda, maybe it is more romantic, and maybe if this conversation was situated outside of the isms in which we presently make our lives that would be fine and I would stop thinking about it there. The benefits of marriage are part and parcel of a lot of isms - capitalism (you’re screwed if you lose standing in the labor force for any reason), ageism, ableism, the ever-present sexism, possibly some racism somewhere. For full disclosure, I am the child of a marriage where one spouse has been very very and very expensively ill for a very long time. So when I hear people talk about choosing to be together every day, I think, well, that’s great for now, but we’re all going to get old and some of us are going to have serious health problems or become handicapped or get ornery and unpleasant to be around for a while because, say, we’re cranky from chemo. There are plenty of examples of couples who stick with each other through the proverbial sickness and health who can’t get married, of course, or who don’t get married.

And of course jerks do dump their cancer-having spouses all the time, and marriage can also trap disabled/aging/otherwise-not-the-privileged-one partners in bad relationships, but I can’t shake the idea that there’s a difference between deciding that someone’s your friend who you like living with and that they’re your family who you’re going to try to stick with even though they’re having a really really bad year/decade. 

Should that commitment only be available to your favorite sex partner of the opposite gender? I doubt it. Personally, I like the old-school Boston Marriage, where two best friends who may or may not have been getting it on would band together to share a household and care for each other into old age.

Comment #60: purpleshoes  on  07/05  at  06:59 PM

Siobhan, thanks for linking that.

Comment #61: mythago  on  07/05  at  07:26 PM

There’s this overwhelming idea amongst women, even so soi-disant feminist ones, that partnered/married = successful/single = horrid unwomanly failure,

Well, many of us grew up with married parents, so we grow up with our impression of what “adulthood” is being formed by the adults we knew the best—our parents—and we associate adulthood with marriage and possibly children.

Comment #62: Tyro  on  07/05  at  08:42 PM

being treated like you’re a legit adult and also having the whole world know that you’re desirable enough that someone would tie themselves to you

Or, as Szasz pointed out in his book, The Second Sin

Competence in heterosexuality, or at least the appearance or pretense of such competence, is as much a public affair as a private one. Thus, going steady is a high
school diploma in heterosexuality; engagement a BA; marriage an MA; and children a Ph.D.

Mencken covered that in his Minority Report, by taking a hammer to the concept, pages 75-76:

There is no man so repulsive he can’t find a wife.  Midgets, cripples, dirty men, hideous men, idiots—they are all dragged to the altar. It may be, as has been argued more than once, that women are lacking in aesthetic sensitiveness, but it is much more likely that the advantages of having a husband, especially on the lower levels, is so great that they outweight every other consideration. The thing also runs the other way, but not to the same extend.  Many a man, rolling over in his bed in the morning, must be gagged by his wife, but ten times as many women have excuses for gagging.  Or is this only a masculine impression, bred of the fact that a man is always more conscious of the deficiencies of other men than a woman can be expected to be, and less conscious of those of women?

Comment #63: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  07/05  at  08:51 PM

Insurance, tax benefits, making your mom happy—-now that gays have to make a pragmatic case for why they should be allowed to marry to win over people for whom equality is not reason enough, it’s becoming trendy for progressive straight people to list these as their reasons to get married.

It’s somewhat a circular argument, though, because those benefits exist for the purpose of privileging marriage.

Comment #64: Hershele Ostropoler  on  07/05  at  10:46 PM

I generally agree with a lot of the points against marriage but one of the most frequent totally confuses me.  People often complain that they were committed to their SO and their families wouldn’t recognize the relationship as committed for life or their work wouldn’t etc.  But, um, how the hell are other people suppose to know how committed you are to your SO if you don’t tell them?  There’s the length of the relationship, but I’ve known people who’ve dated for years casually. 

To me marriage is all about declaring to each other and everyone else that you have formed a partnership. 

I don’t understand how people want society to magically know when they’ve committed to someone without any definite sign. 

Do you really want everyone to treat your new boyfriend, or the old boyfriend you’re pretty sure you’re going to break up with the same as the person you’ve pledged your life to?

I mean, everyone should be nice and treat everyone else with respect but why would I treat every boyfriend my sister has as part of my family when she hasn’t even declared them to be part of hers?  I see family as a life long commitment, I’m not making that commitment to a boyfriend she isn’t sure she’s committed to or one who isn’t sure he’s committed to her.

Comment #65: Victoria  on  07/05  at  11:07 PM

Victoria, why do you have to treat anyone (apart from your children or partner) as part of your family?  What makes you think that everyone your sister dates, or even marries for that matter, is eager to be accepted into the extended clan, with all the attendent obligations?  I’ve been with my boyfriend for 3 years and consider him my life partner, but I don’t consider his family to be my family and I doubt that will ever change even if I marry him.  I think the whole notion of “when you get married you marry your spouse’s whole family” is one of those unquestioned assumptions that’s actually pretty absurd when you really think about it.  You can’t force yourself to become emotionally attached to people just because they happen to be related to someone to whom you did become attached.  I include children from a previous relationship in that, which may seem appalling but the regularity with which boyfriends and stepparents abuse children would seem to demand a more realistic expectation.

Comment #66: DonnaDiva  on  07/05  at  11:32 PM

There’s this overwhelming idea amongst women, even so soi-disant feminist ones, that partnered/married = successful/single = horrid unwomanly failure, which is laughable when you actually look at reality, but there you go.

True. When kids get added into the mix it ends up being one big coersion complex.

(I actually found out the other day that my father would have rather I was like the girls who got pregnant in high school and had the kids rather than the person I am now. Which I find horribly insulting. But then people who are this close to kicking the bucket from cancer are just going to not hold back anymore. Which, on a level, I respect since my dad wasn’t ever really truthful with me EVER. This allowed me to open up about how he & mom should have known by the time I was 5 that I would rather have a menagerie of animals than any children whatsoever. The good thing is that he was happy for me that I was divorced from the ex. It’s very interesting when family members are honest with you. I let him know that he shouldn’t regret something that was never going to happen in the 1st place.)

I’ve heard people ask single mothers if they were going to get married to their current boyfriends because their “kids need a father” Ummm.. sure. Right.

Comment #67: Danica Lefse Queen  on  07/05  at  11:37 PM

DonnaDiva,

I base that expectation on the relationships within my own family.  We are very close and everyone expects certain obligations.  My father considers himself responsible for the well being of my maternal grandparents.  I consider myself obligated to help out (resume etc.) my cousins, even those I don’t like because their bad fortune is my family’s bad fortune.  It’s not how everyone chooses to live their lives and not how everyone can live their lives but it’s the way we do.  I would find the kind of coupledom you’re suggesting to be very isolating.  I like having an extended (not actually very big) family upon whom I can always rely no matter what.  I don’t know how I would deal with my life partner not wanting a strong relationship with my family, how could I hold those two strong commitments while keeping them separate?  It’s as if you has a best friend who was very important to you and your life partner wanted little to do with them, except more so. 

You can’t force yourself no, but I could want to be attached and I don’t think I can help being attached to the people my boyfriend loves who are part of his life.  That’s not the way everyone processes love, I realize that, but it is the way I do.

Comment #68: Victoria  on  07/05  at  11:42 PM

Amanda - I certainly agree with you about the cultural baggage attached to marriage.  And there’s obviously a religious meaning to marriage that some people continue to believe in.

But to get back to the point I was responding to, was the commenter who said that she wished she could get the legal benefits of marriage without getting married.

But legally, marriage is just those various legal benefits and responsibilities which accrue to couples who get married.

So my purpose was to point out that the commenter’s position doesn’t make any sense to me.  Basically, if you don’t believe in all the bullshit patriarchal aspects of marriage, then don’t let them rule your life.  Deciding not to take legal benefits you could have, and that you actually want, simply because to do so would supposedly be to validate the patriarchy, or something, doesn’t make any sense to me at all.

You’re obviously right that most people get married as a result of all the cultural baggage attached to it.  But if you don’t have that cultural baggage (or, at least, you’ve rid yourself of most of it - I’m sure all of us have some of that baggage to some extent), then you should be able to make a cold-blooded decision about whether or not to get married on the basis of the various objective concerns I talked about in my original post - are the economic benefits worth giving up a certain amount of independence, and so forth?  If you think they are, get married.  You can even do it at a big party for your friends and family, if you like.

So, basically, again, my point was not to say that most people view marriage in such a cold-blooded, rational way - obviously they don’t.  My argument, I think, was that the solution is to get rid of all the shitty cultural baggage, both from ourselves individually and from society as a whole, rather than to surrender to it by doing things like coming up with a legal status that is entirely identical to marriage in every way, except that it’s not called marriage.

Comment #69: jlk7e  on  07/06  at  12:37 AM

Victoria, thanks for your concern but I don’t feel isolated at all.  I like my boyfriend’s family and think they are nice people but I don’t feel emotionally attached to them.  That may change over time but I’m not going to force it.  I’ve explained this to bf and he doesn’t have a problem with it.  Not everyone is family-oriented.

Comment #70: DonnaDiva  on  07/06  at  12:45 AM

Not everyone is family-oriented.

Well, that just means that your statement about your feelings about your boyfriend’s family is more about your personality and outlook than something that has to do with marriage or the general perception of family.

You can’t force yourself to become emotionally attached to your own blood-related family, either, but no one crows about “why is it so important to consider your siblings part of your family, anyway?” Obviously, people are free to form and define their relationships under the terms of their choosing, but better to be up front that you are just not very “family-oriented” rather than wondering why marriage doesn’t have that sort of thing built into its expectations.

Comment #71: Tyro  on  07/06  at  01:03 AM

DonnaDiva,

I think I pointed out that people are different and so no, I didn’t think you felt isolated (because then this wouldn’t be your preferred form of organizing things) I said that if I tried to live my life the way that makes sense to you I would feel isolated.  You asked why I cared about the relationship between my sister and her bf and I explained.  I’m not saying it’s better or worse, I’m saying there is a rational reason for it.  I think there are rational reasons why society (family, friends, work, strangers) wants to know whether you are in a committed partnership or not. 

I didn’t express concern for you because I have no reason to believe that you are in need of it.  Also, that would have been condescending.  smile

Comment #72: Victoria  on  07/06  at  02:11 AM

My argument, I think, was that the solution is to get rid of all the shitty cultural baggage, both from ourselves individually and from society as a whole, rather than to surrender to it by doing things like coming up with a legal status that is entirely identical to marriage in every way, except that it’s not called marriage.

Personally, I think it’s a lot easier to come up with a legal status that confers the same legal benefits of marriage than it is to get rid of all the cultural baggage of marriage. Especially since some people specifically want that baggage. They want the religious aspect and the social aspect.

My feeling is that government shouldn’t have anything to do with the religious, cultural and social aspects of marriage. They should only be interested in the things that impact taxes, benefits and specific aspects of civil law. All the rest is none of government’s business, which is why they shouldn’t be in the marriage business.

So, have civil partnerships for anybody who wants them - gay or straight. Then if people want marriages on top of that, fine and dandy. There will always be churches and other cultural forces that will be happy to keep the marriage deal going. But if people like me don’t want it, that’s a valid choice too.

Comment #73: Phoebe Fay  on  07/06  at  02:36 AM

Thanks for that interesting link to the unmarried.org site!  I particularly liked the point that in the 2000 census, there were 11 million self-identified non-married partner households, but the 2005-2007 survey reported 12 million.  Different surveys, different methodologies, maybe insignificant, but still makes me warm and happy to be a partner taking part in a growing movement.

I think I’ll print up about 500 business cards containing nothing but that link so I can simply hand them out without comment everytime someone says ‘You two have been together almost 10 years? Why don’t you just get married like everyone else?’

Unfortunately, that supply will last me… about a month.

Comment #74: Signals and Systems  on  07/06  at  04:57 AM

I am from a European country that has civil partnerships for same-sex couples and marriages for the different-sex couples. I am in an interesting situation as far as my marriage goes. I am legally bound to a transman who is still legally female. So we are a same-sex couple in the eyes of the law. The thing is, I am beginning my transition this year and so we may end up being different-sex married for some time in between our same-sex partnerships (female-female to female-male to male-male). I find this pretty fucking hilarious. For a brief moment in time we would be able to have the same last name AT NO ADDITIONAL COST and we could potentially adopt a child. When we fall back into a civil partnership… a name change will cost us about $200 per person and we will never be able to adopt. It’s hilarious in that sort of laugh-or-else-choke-on-your-rage kind of way.

Being poor was a big issue even with the legal protection of my country’s civil partnership legislation. I had no real choice but to civil-partnership (I am heretofore verbing this monster of a word just because I feel like it) the person I am in love with because we did not originally live in the same country. He is from the States, and… I am not. Neither of us wanted to live in the States permanently so he decided to relocate to my country. Even if we had wanted to live in the States, it would have been impossible because 1)he is from a state that doesn’t recognize or perform same-sex unions and 2)we are both poor.

To be able to gain a residence permit in my country, one has to prove they have sufficient funds to support themselves while they wait for the papers to come through. If you’ve been living together prior to filing your papers, it’s pretty much an open-and-shut thing. We hadn’t lived together because neither of us could afford to pack our shit up and move to a different country to just hang out (since you can’t work or do jack shit while you wait for a green card/residence permit). Because of this slight money-related hitch we had to fear deportation for 8 months because we hadn’t had the possibility of living together prior to getting married, and I was unemployed when we got married. Sorry, I mean… got civil-partnershipped. Things turned out ok in the end, but I think I aged about 5 years during this time from the fear and the added stress of being the sole breadwinner with no real job prospects and no access to social security (my husband’s murky immigation status meant we couldn’t prove we were actually poor and qualified for aid). We’ve been married for a year now and my spouse has access to the yummy things my country has to offer like socialized healthcare and free education, so we’re pretty much in the clear and doing ok. Except that the legal protections of this civil partnership thing that we were forced to enter into denies us some much-needed benefits unmarried couples can claim.

We didn’t really get to have a choice in the matter because we are not wealthy, and our only other choice apart from a legal partnership would have been to not be together at all. Our civil partnership was based on gaining legal protection and entrance to the country we want to live in. Love as well, love above all, but there wouldn’t have been any love to share without the legal protections.

Comment #75: catabolic  on  07/06  at  06:40 AM

To make it worse, a lot of women are encouraged (with Beyonce songs, no less!) to believe that without the shiny on your left hand, you’re not validated as a real person

While I hate that song, I have to say that you are not accurately representing what it says.  What it says is that if the guy wont make a commitment (represented by the ring in the song), he has no right ot complain about who the woman in question dances with or how she dances with them.  It is not saying she has to get the shiny to be worthwile or valid as a real person.  It has to do with whether his complaints are valid and real.
I happen to think a ring or a marriage cert or whatever means that the guy would have any right to that anyway is wrong.  Being in a relationship does not make on property.  Thus my strenuous dislike of that song.

Comment #76: helen w. h.  on  07/06  at  09:27 AM

I have a marriage-qua-squishy-thoughts outlook myself, but I view marriage more in the vein of a choice and a personal predilection than something that “healthy normal people do in a healthy normal relationship.”

Angrymob and I “couldn’t” get married when we wanted to and felt ready for it. We had to wait a few years until he was no longer on student aid and getting married would obliterate his ability to get his degree. And it sucked: not being able to marry the person you love when you feel that you’re ready for marriage really, really sucks. And yeah, the moment when we made our vows was a really heavy, important moment in our relationship, I don’t know if there’s anything that can prepare someone for the moment when you announce before everyone and God that you and your mate are completely emotionally bound together—and for all the people out there who would deny gay couples the right to marry I challenge them to imagine what it would feel like if they were told that they couldn’t because someone else said so, because the love that they feel for that person isn’t “real” or in any way like the love that other more deserving people feel (including people who divorce after 6 months, people in abusive relationships, etc), and that the feeling they had at the altar would never happen.

Comment #77: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/06  at  09:37 AM

As my boyf of 6 years (at the time) said the day we signed our mortgage: “The bank married us.”  Once you jointly own a house (even if you keep your bank accounts and retirement savings separate, as we do), there is no quick dissolve, and lawyers will be involved regardless.  Tip: forgo wedding, diamonds, gifts, and even kids, keep a true 50/50 division on domestic labour, and the line between “married” and “home-owning cohabitating couple” gets quite thin, at least internally.  The bank’s pronouncement, and the likelihood of our jobs taking us abroad (and making marriage almost de facto in terms of one of us being able to accompany the other and get a work permit) made marriage pretty logical.

Still hate what’s attached to the word, as everyone above has pointed out.  The only thing to do is to reframe what the word means, or (if you can) avoid it altogether and go the common-law route.  Even chucking the diamonds, gifts and wedding (not to mention kids) rattles the traditionalists enough, we’ve found, and challenges them up in their face, so it’s a partial vic, even within the bounds of concession.

Comment #78: Ranylt  on  07/06  at  09:46 AM

I blame the diamond industry, personally.  Marriage moves product, and so marriage will continue to be flogged as the inevitable result of love.  The downside is that people are getting married when their relationships probably need to be something easier to dissolve.  To make it worse, a lot of women are encouraged (with Beyonce songs, no less!) to believe that without the shiny on your left hand, you’re not validated as a real person, and the need to have that crowds out other considerations.

I appreciate this, really I do. Two friends of mine were married last year, and they had one of those elaborate, expensive ceremonies, with the elaborate, expensive ring. I had suggested to the groom that he could explain to his bride that diamonds are, at best, morally questionable, and that they should at least get a lab-grown one, if not something like cubic zirconia or crystal instead—looks just as pretty, but you could send someone to two years of state college from what you’d save.

But no—she had an idea of exactly what the wedding was to consist of, and that included a great big diamond ring. I don’t blame her; her friends were all doing it, and bucking the trend, above and beyond bucking her religious parents to have a secular ceremony… I can’t really consider that obligatory, I suppose.

In my ideal world, relationships that exist outside the marriage narrative count just as much, which would at least relieve women of the worry that there’s something wrong with them if they reach age X without having X carats decorating their body and demonstrating to the rest of the world that a man has validated their worth.

This makes me uncomfortable, because it comes off as an attack on women making unapproved choices, or, I suppose, failing to make the approved choice. No, I don’t think anyone who’d feel shamed by Amanda Marcotte was going to demand a diamond ring before reading this, but… well, I know the woman, and I strongly feel that it’s not my place to tell her that she’s being a tool, as if the expectations from her family and from her other friends didn’t exist. What do people do when you threaten their worldview or denigrate their choices? They double down. What’s the right thing to do? I really don’t know.

Comment #79: grendelkhan  on  07/06  at  11:39 AM

I don’t understand how people want society to magically know when they’ve committed to someone without any definite sign.

You know, to me, that’s basically the gist of it. Who I’m in a relationship with, and the level of commitment, isn’t any of society’s business.

Comment #80: HonestB  on  07/06  at  11:45 AM

Well—the interesting question for me is what does it mean to be married?  My partner and I had a public ceremony, exchanged vows and rings and live together and raising our kids (50% of the time) in a jointly owned house.  There was no marriage license or certificate but since we are in a jurisdiction that recognizes common-law, for all intents and purposes we are a married couple.
She and her kids are covered under my employer-based supplemental health insurance.  I’m Canadian, so the bulk of health care (less elective, mental, dental, prescriptions and eyeware) is not relevant to the marriage issue—another benefit of single-payer, I suppose.

At the same time, legally speaking, I am still married to my first wife—though we are separated and working our way slowly through the legalities.  Technically that makes me (and many thousands of others, I suppose) a bigamist but it is an accepted transitional state, around these parts anyway.

I expect that if my partner and I separate there will be legal entitlements to sort through—that’s life.

At the same time, we are both quite aware (a) that I am still legally married to my EX; and (b) that we can still get married, under statutory provisions and we intend to. Why?  Because there are more than legal status changes attached to marriage—why pass up an opportunity to affirm our choice of one another as life partners?  What’s wrong with a little romance and another honeymoon anyway, hmmm?

Oh, and as to the “co-dependant” thing—I think the word she wanted was “inter-dependant”  which is, to my mind (YMMV) , the way humans, as social beings, are able to be solid individuals with a stong sense of self and integrity while living intentionally as part of a community—definitely not the same thing at all as co-dependant.

Comment #81: Randomizer  on  07/06  at  11:48 AM

Victoria, agreed, this is something that bugs the hell out of me about the all-relationships-are-freely-chosen-and-should-carry-no-obligation position: while I’m sure it’s nice for people who it works for, it’s not how I want to live. I don’t freely choose to be loyal to my family, and they don’t freely choose to be loyal to me. I live in a system of mutual duties and obligations with my family; that’s how we help each other through life. So I could see committing to a long-term relationship (especially one in which children might be produced) as being very important because it brings someone else into that network of obligations, especially because I would have real trouble forming a relationship with someone who felt no ties of obligation towards their aging parents, siblings, close friends, etc.

I do wonder if part of this is not being ideologically child-free; you can’t freely choose a relationship to your young children, for heaven’s sakes, so the fact that I’m going to have children at some point and will need a community in which to raise them probably makes me more of a traditionalist when it comes to my view of social ties. Though really, if someone in your family was in a relationship, say with someone of their own gender, and explained to their family that this was their life partner who they were planning to live with for a long time, wouldn’t that be enough to bring them into the family? It would in mine.

Comment #82: purpleshoes  on  07/06  at  12:28 PM

JKL: Let me see if I can’t clarify my earlier statement since it seems to be giving you some problems. The thing is, at some point, for me and my partner to be able to obtain legal benefits, we have to register or fill out paperwork (and at this point, we have filled out domestic partner paperwork—surprisingly, awesomely easy). I understand that marriage is a collection of rights and responsibilities. (Most of which responsibilities, I and my partner have already taken on.) I GET that. I may not be happy about it, but I understand it. Generally when I refer to an option about not being married, I’m referring to the idea of a civil union, god completely taken out of the ceremonies, and the word marriage far far away. (Alas, civil unions still don’t seem to be as good as marriage.)

But re: my statement about marriage, I happen to come from a land (Utah County, Mormoniest of Mormonlands) where marriage historically and socially has a shit-tonne of baggage associated with it. I was told from the time I was very very young that I was going to get married. Imagine having worried about getting married from the time you were five, and worrying how you could tell if somebody liked you enough to be married to them. Imagine having nightmares from the time you were prepubescent about marrying a perfectly nice guy for whom you felt no attraction, and who was always a faceless monster that your family turned you over to. Imagine having to make up lists in church about the qualities of a husband before you had ever even started dating, because after all, “You marry who you date.” Imagine hearing in church meetings that the reason girls go on missions later then the guys is to give them two extra years to find a husband, which, of course, is their first duty. Imagine watching with anxiety as your friends get married off, one by one, while you can’t figure out why your boyfriends metaphorically run for the hills. Imagine ruining several relationships because you are young and everybody and their dog is pressuring you to get married, and you can’t figure out what is wrong with you. Imagine not being invited to hang with the adults at family get-togethers because the adult groups are only for married people. Imagine having your mother corner your boyfriend in the kitchen, and basically tell him he can propose to you at any time….no, that he can ask your father for your hand in marriage, and Dad will be glad to give you away. Imagine having your grandfather lecture you repeatedly on your career choices, because you should get something you can put on hold once you get married, but will be useful with kids. I do not think I can understate how the Mormon church culture of marrying as the end goal fucked with my head, and to this day, even though I regard my boyfriend and I as committed, I do sometimes freak out that we are not married, and then I can’t tell if I want to get married because of the continuous ongoing pressure, or if because I really want to get married. And part of me wants to stand on principle and say, “Family, I’m an adult, deal with it, and treat me like one.” (Well, I did, and the new generations do, but not the old generations.) And then too, I would feel kinda guilty for taking privileges that my gay friends can’t have. (Except in Massachusetts, Ohio, Vermont, and Connecticut.)

Basically, it’s easy to say, “Well, just don’t acknowledge the baggage.” It’s another thing to actually put it into practice.

And yes, I realise this is all personal issue, not relevent to everyone, but you asked why I would say such a thing. And that’s why. It may not be logical, but it’s been my experience.

Comment #83: PixelFish  on  07/06  at  01:11 PM

Except in Massachusetts, Ohio, Vermont, and Connecticut.)

Iowa, not Ohio.  Ohio has an anti-marriage constitutional amendment in place.

(And yes, those of us who’ve lived in Iowa are used to the “Ohio” slip. Also “Idaho.”)

Comment #84: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  07/06  at  02:14 PM

Randomizer - unless Canadian law is very weird indeed, if you are legally married to another person right now, you do not have a “common law marriage”. Common law marriage recognizes that when people live together for a long time and hold themselves out as married, in certain circumstances the government will say “aw, you kids are married”. I’m not judging you by any means, but I cannot urge you strongly enough to talk to a good lawyer in your jurisdiction if you have not already. There can be serious legal ramifications (that’s lawyer for “enormous fucking headaches in your future”) if you’re representing on documents-with-legal-effect, like benefits requests, that you’re the spouse of person A when you’re actually the spouse of person B.

I think it’s a lot easier to come up with a legal status that confers the same legal benefits of marriage

That would be different from legal, civil marriage how? And let’s not forget that along with all the benefits come obligations. I’m personally not very much in favor of a system that imposes only one or the other.

Comment #85: mythago  on  07/06  at  02:15 PM

Hi PixelFish.  Thanks for the response, and I can certainly understand how all that baggage can be hard to get rid of, and certainly how it can impact an individual person’s attitude towards marriage.  And the attitude of the LDS Church towards marriage is totally insane, and must be awful to go through if you don’t believe in it.

That being said…

Generally when I refer to an option about not being married, I’m referring to the idea of a civil union, god completely taken out of the ceremonies, and the word marriage far far away.

But anyone can easily have a marriage with no mention of God.  Everyone can get married by a judge, and I assume the judge won’t talk about God unless you ask him or her to (or, at least, will not talk about God if you ask him or her not to).  Or you can get married by a friend who is a fake internet clergyman, like some friends of mine are doing.  In many European countries, there are two distinct processes of civil and religious marriage, with the civil marriage having nothing to do with God at all.

So all that is already possible.  The only issue you seem to have is wishing for it not to be called marriage.  But “civil union” is simply a euphemism for marriage.  It means the same thing.  And the civil meaning of marriage is actually older than the Christian one - the basic idea of civil marriage going back to the Romans, and so forth.  When you enter into an agreement formalized by the state to be contractually attached in certain predetermined ways to a romantic partner, you are married, because that is what marriage, at its most basic level, is.  Millions of people around the world have been married with no reference to God and all that.

As mythago said, how would a legal status that confers the same legal benefits and obligations as marriage, but isn’t called marriage, be different from existing civil marriage?  You seem to be wanting to create a whole new legal term for something that already has a legal term for it, because you have personal issues with the word “marriage.”  This just seems completely impracticable. 

I will say that, in my opinion, we should be more like Europe, and have a civil marriage system which is completely distinct from religious marriage.  That is, to get legally married, you go to the courthouse and get a marriage certificate.  If you want to get married within a faith tradition, you can do that separately.  The current system, where there is civil marriage, but you can also get legally married by a clergyman, seems problematic to me.

Comment #86: jlk7e  on  07/06  at  02:52 PM

we should be more like Europe, and have a civil marriage system which is completely distinct from religious marriage

But we already have that. The only difference here is that we allow clergy, not just county clerks, to be the one certifying the marriage. In the eyes of the government, it makes absolutely no difference if you were married by Donna Smith, Assistant Deputy County Official, or the Pope. Heck, many places allow you to deputize a friend for a day to perform a wedding ceremony. The real problem is the cultural confusion between religious and civil marriage.

Comment #87: mythago  on  07/06  at  03:03 PM

The only difference here is that we allow clergy, not just county clerks, to be the one certifying the marriage.

That’s no small difference, though. And it goes beyond a cultural conflation between religious and civil marriage to a Constitutional one—a thorny issue that everyone’s reluctant to address, but one that we as a society need to discuss if we aspire to the true intent of the Establishment Clause.

Under our system, there’s absolutely no reason beyond tradition and habit that priests should have the ability to confer a package of state-granted legal benefits on a couple—that’s the business of the state, not the church. That’s not to say that a priest, rabbi, imam, witch doctor, or your cousin Fred can’t perform a marriage ceremony in front of witnesses, just that it shouldn’t confer the package of legal benefits.

This is why I’m for replacing the term “marriage” with “civil union” to describe the contract that confers the package (grandfathering in everyone prior to the change). Leave “marriage” to the priests or anyone else who has authority with the couple to wave a magic wand and make a pronouncement.

That contract, as noted earlier, should be open to any two or more people who wish to become parties to it, and those parties should be required to either opt in explicitly to the state’s standard laws for dissolution or choose their own pre-nup terms.

Comment #88: Gracchus.  on  07/06  at  03:47 PM

Why does no one ever mentioned the book/blog Beyond Straight and Gay Marriage by Nancy Polikoff?

We had a ceremony a few months ago and we don’t plan to marry at all.  We have a trillion reasons for not doing so.  For one,  the monetary issues that people claim to want are pathetic.  You shouldn’t get tax benefits simply for fucking someone on a regular basis.  Access to health insurance is similarly pathetic unless one person has fantastic health insurance and the other has chronic medical conditions.  Larger financial concerns are also easily split up by talking to a lawyer when applying for loans/mortgages.  You can draw up medical powers of attorney in order to give each other permission to make such decisions.  And these are simply knee jerk reactions to the supposedly progressive reasons that heteros always give.  It’s not even poking at the fundamental truth that until the late 1960s, women were legally erased by the doctrine of couverture.  Anyone who thinks that the past 50 years has transformed thousands of years of servitude into a respectable legal agreement is engaged in such a level of self-deception that I get chills to my bones at the display of naivete.

Oh, my other irritant is the pitying focus on being together “forever”.  No you won’t.  I mean, sure, you could be.  It’s not remotely hard to stay married for the rest of your life.  My grandparents have been together for 55 years and hated each other for 54 of them.  Plan for your relationship’s demise at the beginning and you will be a hell of a lot better off, possibly better even then if you divorce, since at least you have a plan to follow and gave it some thought instead of being blind-sided by legal disputes.

Comment #89: Rachel,II  on  07/06  at  04:10 PM

jlke, I used to work in a county courthouse.  Here the magistrate reads a text that makes specific reference to “marriage is an institution created by God in the time of man’s innocence.” If you don’t want any truck with God and the Garden of Eden I think you’ve got to find someone who’s not a magistrate.

Seriously. Intent to Form a Joined Household Form 001A. Fill it out, turn it in, share insurance benefits. Don’t bother limiting it to people who are supposed to have sex with each other - if two biologically related people want to commit to forming a joined household for mutual support and economic stability, more power to them; likewise, two friends who make good life partners but have their romance with other people. I like marriage in its place, which is in a religious or cultural context between people who want to make a religious or cultural vow. I don’t know what it’s doing on the law books when the civic concern is how to handle two people investing in a shared household.

Comment #90: purpleshoes  on  07/06  at  04:16 PM

Rachell II, it’s always nice to see the concerns of presently un-sick uninsured people dismissed as pathetic.

Comment #91: purpleshoes  on  07/06  at  04:18 PM

And the concerns of people who can afford a $25 or $50 marriage license, but not extra the hundreds or thousands of dollars in lawyers’ fees when buying property are dismissed.

Comment #92: syfr  on  07/06  at  04:26 PM

I dismissed the concerns of hetero people in relationships who aren’t sick and don’t have health insurance.  If every such person agrees that the answer to this societal problem (no health insurance) is an individual solution (get married), then what is the impetus for any politician to risk a drastic healthcare reform proposal?

Additionally, this is exactly what’s so grating about the pro-marriage faction.  Not everyone is in a relationship!  Tons of people actually are sick, have no insurance, and have no marriage prospects available.  But since those people are probably also poor, having spent their single-income on health care and are not well-situated to lobby Congress, they don’t get heard.  And since we all got ours, why stick our necks out for anyone else?  No matter how much a person “supports” a cause, you don’t support it nearly as much as when it actually is your issue and you may lose.

Comment #93: Rachel,II  on  07/06  at  04:30 PM

Seriously, Syfr?  That’s a bad thing?  Yes, I will go ahead and not feel bad for people who buy so much property that they don’t have a a few hundred dollars left over to contact an attorney.

Comment #94: Rachel,II  on  07/06  at  04:33 PM

RachelI,II, what exactly do you mean when you say “the monetary issues that people claim to want are pathetic”? You sort of seem to be saying the benefits aren’t worth wanting (at least, that’s how I’m interpreting your comment about shared health insurance only being worthwhile if one spouse has great coverage and the other has major medical problems). But you also seem to be saying the benefits are attractive but not deserved (at least that’s how I’m interpreting “you shouldn’t get tax benefits for fucking someone”).
Lots of people on this thread have stated agreement with that second argument; purpleshoes has suggested Form 001A. But I haven’t heard many people argue before that the financial benefits of marriage aren’t worth wanting, and since I’ve heard so much to the contrary from advocates of legalizing gay marriage, I’m sort of surprised. I’d like to put my boyfriend on my health insurance even though it’s not fantastic and even though he’s not chronically ill, just because my mediocre coverage is better than nothing, and I’m under the impression that there are plenty of gay and lesbian couples who would like the same. Am I misunderstanding you?

Comment #95: JessSnark  on  07/06  at  04:44 PM

Yeah, actually you’re totally right on that.  I think everyone should pay taxes on what they make and that married people should not get any tax breaks (or insurance breaks.  It costs 100 extra dollars a month to add my partner to my car insurance.  If he were my husband, it would cost 20 dollars LESS for us both.).  But you’re right, WANTING such financial incentives isn’t pathetic, per se.  After all, that’s part of why they exist, to entice people to marry.  I still maintain that wanting to avoid paying taxes and being duped into marriage by that carrot is not noble.

The health insurance thing is tricky.  My non-sick partner is on my fantastic insurance offered through work.  It’s good to have that security and I’m not knocking the desire to have your love protected.  But when I quit this job at the end of the summer, we’re going to both be screwed if we get sick.  This would be the case if we were both single and if we married.  And that’s the point.  Claiming healthcare as a reason to get married (when you’re in the middle-class) makes healthcare an expected benefit for marriage.  They are so intrinsically linked that it’s become not the provence of the government to care for citizens, but is dependent upon the whims of a corporation to decide what healthcare plan provides them the greater tax corporate tax break.  The more people who buy into this who don’t need to, the fewer people there are FEELING that no health insurance fear every day and fewer people agitating Congress for greater coverage.

Comment #96: Rachel,II  on  07/06  at  05:05 PM

Rachel,II, I don’t think the urge to protect your loved ones is the enemy of the urge to protect your fellow citizens. I think it can be, but I don’t think the two are fundamentally opposed. I also think agitating is easier to do when you’re not sick, hurting, and/or terrified of losing the tiny bit of stability you have. If the only possible motivation for supporting a political cause was immediate self-interest then I would support the Flat Tax, ffs.

Comment #97: purpleshoes  on  07/06  at  05:25 PM

Purpleshoes, if you aren’t capable of comprehending what I say, I’m not going to engage with you.

Comment #98: Rachel,II  on  07/06  at  05:29 PM

jlke, I used to work in a county courthouse.  Here the magistrate reads a text that makes specific reference to “marriage is an institution created by God in the time of man’s innocence.” If you don’t want any truck with God and the Garden of Eden I think you’ve got to find someone who’s not a magistrate.

Well, that’s crazy and outrageous. 

I like marriage in its place, which is in a religious or cultural context between people who want to make a religious or cultural vow.

But this has never been what marriage is.  Christianity only accepted marriage as having to do with religion quite late, for instance.  Civil marriage is much closer to the original definition of marriage than a “religious vow” is.

Comment #99: jlk7e  on  07/06  at  05:53 PM

@mythago wrote:

“...you do not have a “common law marriage…”

I double-checked and technically, you are correct—there is no such thing as common-law “marriage” per se in Canada.  What I do have though is a common-law “relationship.” 

In most respects it is indistinguishable from marriage except that if we want to part company—there is no divorce.  To the extent that there is property in common, both our names are on the deeds and mortgage, so that’s clear enough.  Our common-law relationship is recognized by my insurance company, by the government for tax purposes, etc. 

I have arranged for additional life insurance with my partner named as a beneficiary since that seemed prudent.

To be as close as possible to the legal status of a marriage, some legal arrangements would be required, i.e., a co-habitation agreement, a will and a living will. 

In the not too distant future, the plan is to get the state’s imprimatur if only to avoid ugliness at the hospital should one of us become gravely sick or injured and, I suppose, to obviate the remaining legal/technical uncertainties.

All to say, I probably undermined my own argument

...  long and the short of it is that, regarding families, the law is, as per, an a**.

Comment #100: Randomizer  on  07/06  at  06:03 PM

Rachel,II, fair enough. You introduced your points using unclear language and a lot of perjoratives towards situations I feel strongly about, which probably made me unwilling to approach your clarification with an open mind. Have a nice evening!

jlk7e, it made me very uncomfortable. And, oh, by “religious or cultural institution” I am referring more to the idea that you get a party when you get handfasted, or announce it to your friends after church, or walk around a bush or jump over a broom or whatever other things the peasants were up to to mark periods of shacking up while rich people signed legal contracts to do with the disposition of property. Changing your Facebook status. You know.

Comment #101: purpleshoes  on  07/06  at  06:08 PM

Rachell,II - just a couple of anecdotes to make a point.

i have had multiple surgeries on my hip. my boyfriend of 5 years and i filled out Medical Power of Attorney forms, and we both keep them at all times.
when Pete tried to come see me after hours using the Medical Power of Attorney, he was denied. when he tried to talk to doctors or nurses using it, he was denied. when he tried to stop a nurse from giving me a drug i am *VIOLENTLY* allergic due, she kicked him out of the room, even though he was holding the Medical Power of Attorney and TELLING her what it said and how he was allowed to make decisions for me when i wasn’t competent (as i wasn’t at that point, being too drugged to even know that the nurse was going to give me something, let alone recognize what it was).
contrawise, when he showed up and told everyone he was my fiancee, they bent over fucking *backwards* to accomodate him, to listen to him, they asked his opinion and gave him all the priveleges that are *SUPPOSED* to come from either marriage or a Medical Power of Attorney.

they fucking *IGNORE* Medical Power of Attorneys. sure, you can try to sue later (and we did try) but so far it seems to go nowhere because the hospital only has to say that they had “reason to suspect that the form was forged” and that’s that - nothing happens, and hospital continues to ignore Medical Power of Attorny.

it has also happened the other way - i took Pete to ER, i checked him in using the Medical Power of Attory - and then he say in a room for HOURS, because he wasn’t fucking coherent enough to talk to anyone, and NO ONE would accept my Medical Power of Attorney (until after he was coherent again and told them too - at whicn point they fell all over themselves being nice to me, until i bitched them out for leaving Pete in agony for HOURS because they are bigoted bastards who refuse to accept a fucking LEGAL DOCUMENT, but *will* accept a person saying “but we are engaged” as legal and valid when there is NO WAY to LEGALLY PROVE that two people are engaged!)
and Pete has NO FAMILY AT ALL - if something happens, the ONLY person who has any right to do or say anything for Pete medically (other than himself, of course) is ME - and the hospitals ROUTINELY REFUSE TO HONOR THE LEGAL DOCUMENTS THAT GIVE ME THOSE RIGHTS.

we will be getting married (i didn’t really *want* to get married again…) because of THIS SPECIFICALLY. and that is *NOT* any sort of bullshit reason - it is literally a matter of life-or-death.

Comment #102: denelian  on  07/06  at  08:52 PM

Purpleshoes,

Having someone in my family and their partner (same sex or opposite) come to us and say that they are committed to each other come what may would absolutely be sufficient to make them committed and part of the family in our eyes.  The marriage itself isn’t necessary, it’s the explicit commitment plus informing concerned parties of that commitment that makes the difference.  I’m not actually a big supporter of marriage, I think there are definite benefits to making the commitment without either marriage or a wedding.  However, I do realize that Marriage is (except for the financial benefits) all about announcing to everyone that you’ve made a commitment.  It’s a lot easier and more practical to make one announcement that will reach everyone then to make a gazillion of individual ones.

I think that living life as a couple is easier if people know that you’re a couple.  And I think that people partnered up but not married sometimes blame others for not treating them appropriately when objectively speaking others have no reason to treat them as partnered when they have not given a sign of their commitment.  I hear gfs complain all the time about how, oh those evil family members of the bf don’t treat me as his life partner or those coworkers or those strangers.  Of course, this doesn’t AT ALL apply to denelian’s case because the PoA very clearly tells hospital personal exactly what it’s all about. 

Denelian, that’s outrageous and I can not believe that they were such consistent malicious idiots.

Comment #103: Victoria  on  07/06  at  09:23 PM

Rachel,II, I think I understand what you’re saying now. By “pathetic” you meant “insufficiently ambitious,” and you were saying people should be working for broader access to health care rather than just getting it for themselves & their loved ones via marriage. Fair enough- I guess there are two different questions though:
1. Should I get married?
2. What social and economic policies should I advocate for?
The original post and most of the comments were about #1, and your comment was about #2.
Broadening access to health care would do a lot of great things, but it wouldn’t solve the Medical Power of Attorney problems that denelian mentioned, and it wouldn’t address the car insurance cost inequities that you mentioned, so there’s still a need for expanding access to those rights.

Comment #104: JessSnark  on  07/07  at  09:27 AM

JessSnark, you should read the book/blog by Nancy Polikoff that I mentioned.  She goes into a lot of exhaustive detail on healthcare/marriage/relationships that I’m constantly re-reading.

It’s a question of standing for most politicians/people.  There’s a difference in authority between saying “I’m married to someone with great insurance so I’m fine, but I sure do wish my single friend with no insurance dealing with diabetes could be treated” and saying “Hey, congresscritter, I have diabetes, what are you going to do about it?”  Otherwise it comes off as whining about how life isn’t fair because some people get married and some people don’t.  If (generic) you think it’s not fair, then you wouldn’t have taken part in such an unequal act.

Denalian, thank you for that warning.  Fortunately, my partner is a lawyer so hopefully if it came to it, we’d be fine.  Otherwise, we’ve claimed to be each other’s sibling in order to get around beaurocratic irritants in the past so maybe that would work in a medical situation.  We try to avoid claiming hetero privilege when possible, though when I was in a situation in China, I referred to my husband in order to get what I wanted.

Comment #105: Rachel,II  on  07/07  at  12:27 PM
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