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Next entry: Now ends the story of the biggest celebrity train wreck in modern history Previous entry: Mid-afternoon uber-60s music break

The karmic punishment of Sandford’s middle-aged passion

I really enjoyed these two blog posts at Broadsheet examining what might be the most shocking thing of all about this Mark Sanford scandal, which is that it actually fits the standard adultery narrative, where the cheater falls in love.  And what’s fascinating is how much people are embarrassed for him because of it, which doesn’t make much sense to me, since I thought the emails that were published weren’t anything unusual, though definitely private.* But as Amy Benfer notes, that Sanford is in love with a woman has been treated like it’s somehow emasculating.

Keith Olbermann compared his prose style to “The Bridges of Madison County” while his guest, comedian Christian Finnegan, said Sanford’s love letters were so perfectly attuned to the romantic fantasies of middle-aged women that Sanford was likely to see his fans wearing T-shirts that read: “I am a 45-year-old depressed housewife and I vote!”

Ah yes, the idea that men could be breathlessly in love is a fantasy only held by sheltered, naive women.  Real men prove it by treating women like sex-and-housework-dispensing appliances, and certainly don’t debase themselves by admiring or, god forbid, even respecting women.  Okay, I doubt that Olbermann and Finnegan would actually agree with that sentiment (unlike wingnut douchebags that Glenn Greenwald so sweetly dissects), but still, they’re relying on the trope that real men don’t love to get humor out of the situation.

But perhaps the Real Men Don’t Love theory is what got Sanford stuck in this trap in the first place? Some of the commenters at Broadsheet—-the non-nutty ones—-left some intriguing comments that suggest that this is a possibility.  Commenter Icarus says something that made me stop and think:

Some people may never have had the experience of passionate desire. To them, “love” and relationships are akin to a personal contract, a transaction (I’m looking at you Mrs. Sanford). When it hits them for the first time mid-life they have no experience dealing with it. It’s as if their experience of the world up to this point has been AM Radio and all of a sudden they are exposed to Color TV. I say we should pity them.

Jenny Sanford’s epic press release telling her side of the story is stuffed to the gills with the “love is work” mentality, and in the hands of right wingers, the sexism that underpins this marriage-as-joyless-drudgery mentality rises to the surface.  The lightening strike passionate love relies heavily on mutual, intense admiration, and that’s a little bit different than the “men are from Mars/women are from Venus” recommendations for mating that Christian wingnuts endorse, where wives are chosen for being organized and submissive and husbands are chosen for being good providers with strong ambition.  And, more importantly, where it’s assumed that men and women have so little in common that the best they can hope for is to create a marriage on hard work and a lot of compromise, because the kind of easy affection that friends have for each other is beyond men and women.  Plus, as the writer that Greenwald eviscerates explains, men and women don’t even have sex in common.  According to Andrew Klavan, men have sexual desire, and if women want to understand what that feels like, they have to think about how they feel about having babies.  I often joke that men who say things like this have never had a moment of true sparking passion with a woman in their lives, but honestly, until this Sanford thing exploded, I never honestly thought that was true (except for the deeply closeted gay men, for obvious reasons). 


But if you really do buy into Jenny Sanford’s view of love (and probably Mark Sanford’s, before this happened), where it’s a tense partnership to be monitored and worked on to fit god or society’s plans—-and that love is willed more than felt—-then it probably is possible to go decades, or your whole life really, without feeling that lightening strike.  Because you’re not standing outside in the rain, which is to say that you haven’t opened yourself up to the possibility.  A lot of falling in love happens because people want it to happen—-they seek out people that they have a lot in common with, people that might present an opportunity for passion.  They also work on making themselves people who value passion, developing pleasures and interests and personality traits that make it easier for passion to enter their lives.  Which is the sort of thing that Mark Sanford was alluding to when he praised his mistress for being sophisticated.  But the whole right wing Christian culture discourages those things that might inflame passion—-perhaps they’re effective in that (though not so much in shutting down sex altogether, but they probably do succeed in making it less fun).  If you never feel that sort of passion and suddenly it enters your life in middle age, what would you do?  You’d probably freak the fuck out, I’d guess.  Your entire worldview would change.  You’d babble about how much in love you are during a press conference.

There seems to be a relationship between having a colorless life and having dreary social conservative views, too.  If you’ve experience the neediness that desire can instill in a person, it’s a lot easier (if you’re straight) to understand how being gay isn’t a choice, but a deeply felt need that has to be expressed, even if you face severe social costs.  If you experience love primarily as an exertion that you go through to accomplish a god-and-country-mandated marriage, then gay marriage probably doesn’t make much sense, since it’s prioritizing passion over social mandates.  Abortion and birth control obviously bother the religious right because it interferes with what they think the proper trajectory for sexually active young women is, which is to get pregnant pretty much immediately by the first guy you fool around with, and have to marry him, which is called “taking responsibility”.  It’s all so very dreary and colorless, but it honestly never occurred to me that it might be a worldview that is effective at making the lives of those who subscribe to it so completely passionless.  I just thought they were utterly irrational and in denial.  But this Sanford thing is making me consider how likely it is that maybe there just a lot of people out there who have no idea what real passion can feel like.  Unless it sneaks up on them at the most inopportune time, almost like some karmic punishment.


*And if Sanford were not a right wing nutbag who thinks that women have no privacy rights when it comes to sex, then I’d object to them being published.  But if you don’t believe in privacy, then you should be the first to give it up, in my opinion.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 05:37 PM • (108) Comments

I wouldn’t be so very harsh on Jenny Sanford - she is in a very tight position and is being very shrewd about it.  I think it is refreshing how she is playing all of the “right” cards that will land her a good divorce settlement and provide for her four kids.

She’s not wallowing in denial, and is quite aware that the ship is sinking, and she is doing it marvelously.

Comment #1: Ms Kate  on  06/25  at  06:45 PM

it probably is possible to go decades, or your whole life really, without feeling that lightning strike.

I don’t know why it’s so hard for me to believe this is possible, since there are enough people who honestly think gays can “choose” to be straight, and so apparently have no idea what being attracted to someone or falling in love actually feels like, but I guess I do have to believe it.

If you’ve experience the neediness that desire can instill in a person, it’s a lot easier (if you’re straight) to understand how being gay isn’t a choice, but a deeply felt need that has to be expressed, even if you face severe social costs.

Exactly. I sometimes want to ask people who think it’s a choice if they consciously chose to fall in love with the people they fell in love with, but now it’s occurring to me that they may never even have been in love, or attempted a relationship with someone they were in love with, so I don’t think their heterosexuality is even a confirmed fact.

Comment #2: junk science  on  06/25  at  06:55 PM

Eh, I admire her vicious destruction of her husband from a strategic viewpoint, but I don’t think she’s a nice person.  I would never recommend crossing a conservative housewife.  A lot of them are doormat, but just as many figure they are owed for their years of sacrifice, and if divorce looms, they will take you to the cleaners.  And their foolish husbands never see it coming—-they spent years dominating these women, and it never occurs to them that it could be taken away if she changes her mind. 

That’s where MRAs come from.  They spend years shitting on their wives, and when the divorce hits, suddenly she’s not the sweet little doormat but willing to fight for herself, and the men lose their fucking minds.  And blame “feminists”, even though they most likely wouldn’t have been in this situation if they were actually married to feminists.

Comment #3: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/25  at  06:56 PM

How is this a political issue?

Gay rights, abortion, and the religious right aren’t political issues?  How not?

I was also not aware that I was required to write strictly about politics, especially how you define them.  Up until this moment, I was under the impression that I could write about whatever I wanted, and that one of our blog’s specialties is mixing social commentary and pop culture criticism in with political writing.

Comment #4: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/25  at  06:57 PM

This wouldn’t really be all that entertaining except for the fact that Sanford is a flaming hypocrite.
I wonder if they’re going to enforce the adultery is illegal in SC thing.
My guess HELL NO.
But it would be interesting to see him bitten in the ass by his own bullshit. More than what’s already happening now that is.

Comment #5: Danica Lefse Queen  on  06/25  at  07:00 PM

Last night I read some article on MSNBC (I think) that outlined the role that Jenny Sanford had played in her husband’s career.  Reading that she’s independently wealthy, they met on Wall Street, etc. etc., made me say at the end of it, “Ah, this all makes sense.”  It seems that he needs her a whole lot more than she needs him.  No wonder the wingnuts wouldn’t understand this “love” nonsense - it’s getting in the way of a perfectly good political career (his, engineered by her).

Comment #6: Tyche  on  06/25  at  07:01 PM

Otis:

He abandoned his post.
He lied.
He exocated others for the same thing; he’s a hypocrite.
He told others in a similar spot to resign but now refuses to; he’s a hypocrite.
If he broke his oath to his wife would he break his oath to the people of SC

Comment #7: Magis  on  06/25  at  07:06 PM

There is a lot of wisdom in this view, I think.  I’m intimately acquainted with what passion and love can do to you when you aren’t prepared for it, if you hadn’t experienced it before in the same way.  It’s like a drug, and like most addicts, your drug of choice shoots your better judgment all to hell.  Nothing good comes from it.  So I understand.

But I don’t have a lot of sympathy for Sanford and those like him.  He made it his life’s mission to prevent as many people as possible from reaching that fulfillment and understanding.  He was standing in the way, and got run over.  If there was any justice in the world this experience would lead him to a more empathetic and humane understanding, but I wouldn’t count on it.

Comment #8: John  on  06/25  at  07:06 PM

Sanford does seem to be getting an unusual amount of sympathy from places I wouldn’t expect (like John Cole), so I think there’s something to the idea that people are surprised that he’s actually in love.  I can’t think of another public adulterer in the past decade (at least) who said they did it because they were in love.  It’s always blah blah mistake blah blah disappointed you blah blah blah.

Even with, say, Rudy Giuliani, he was such an asshole about the whole thing (wanting his girlfriend to move into Gracie Mansion while his wife and kids were still living there?  Really?) that you couldn’t believe he did it for love.  About the only person I can think of who claimed to be carried away by passion was Woody Allen, but that had the extra squick factor of getting together with (essentially) his stepdaughter, so not a lot of sympathy there, either.  Maybe Brad Pitt, but they used the kids as shields (“Look at us!  We’re making a nice nuclear family!  There’s nothing shady about this at all!”)

I have to say I do have some sympathy with Jenny Sanford, though.  She’s got four kids to support, and she knows full well that her soon-to-be-ex ain’t going to be picking up the slack.  Not to mention that by all accounts this has been going on for at least a year, which gave her more than enough time to get bitter about it since she couldn’t tell a soul for fear of ruining his career.  It must be an enormous relief to her that he finally ruined it himself and she can unload.

Comment #9: Mnemosyne  on  06/25  at  07:09 PM

Thank you for posting this, Amanda. I was trying to figure out what about the release of the emails had been bugging me so much, and why I was strangely uncomfortable after hearing about the first couple of lines. I enjoy a good old fashioned hypocrisy train-wreck, but the idea that he may never have let himself feel this way or never been exposed to the lightning strike of love before…

It is an eye-opener on how lucky I’ve been in my life in having parents who explained the value of passion in love.

Comment #10: Lurker 2.0  on  06/25  at  07:11 PM

I think here we’re missing otis’s actually valid point for his troll face.

If you look at it this way, ‘marriage must be drudgery, because a majority of people wish to end them poorly,’ it just is.  Much like whether it is sunny or not today isn’t a political issue.

Of course, people turn these things into political issues… But non-amicable divorce and cheating aren’t necessarily political in nature.  They happen when people aren’t honest with each other or themselves.

Comment #11: Crissa  on  06/25  at  07:13 PM

Unless it sneaks up on them at the most inopportune time, almost like some karmic punishment.

Those whom the gods would destroy they first <strike>make mad</strike> fall in love?
Maybe.

And your right there is a bit too much making fun of love going on in this.  Still, love letters aren’t meant to be read by anybody but your lover.  I can hardly imagine a love letter that wouldn’t sound sappy outside of that context.

Comment #12: Magis  on  06/25  at  07:14 PM

I think there’s something to the idea that people are surprised that he’s actually in love

Eh.  I don’t know how to tell “actually in love” from “quickly coming up with a somewhat coherent explanation for WTF you’ve been doing.”

Comment #13: FlipYrWhig  on  06/25  at  07:14 PM

PS, he did break his oath to the people of SC.  He wandered out of the country and left them without a governor - didn’t even put the Lt in charge while he was ‘hiking’.

Comment #14: Crissa  on  06/25  at  07:14 PM

So, what you’re saying is that to rank-n-file Republicans, passionate love is just so gay!, amirite? 

I guess that explains a helluva lot.

Friends don’t let friends become Republicans…

Comment #15: MikeEss  on  06/25  at  07:16 PM

Great post.  While the abortion angle is a bit harder to fit in to your hypothesis (I think “slut punishment” is the dominant underlying mentality there), the gay marriage angle rings very true.  As someone very much in love with my wife, the idea of barring someone from expressing their love through marriage simply based on their sexual preference seems positively barbaric. 

But I met my wife when I was 23, and I’m sure that getting hit by that lightning bolt of passion (falling asleep thinking about her, waking up thinking about her, daydreaming about her hair, her eyes, her laugh, her smile) at age 43 would be pretty terrifying.  Especially after many years of, as you put it nicely, a god-and-country mandated marriage.

Comment #16: TF79  on  06/25  at  07:17 PM

they’re relying on the trope that real men don’t love to get humor out of the situation.

I guess there’s a little bit of the “Because you’re not That Guy” trope in there.  But IMHO the humor comes from the way that Sanford’s emails really do sound like supermarket romance _rather than_ genuine thought and feeling, as though he’s falling back on What Romance Sounds Like.  It reminds me of the Thomas Kinkade Christian-bad-taste discussion from a few days back.

Comment #17: FlipYrWhig  on  06/25  at  07:18 PM

One thing about Jenny Sanford:  I think it’s very possible, considering that she’s known about the afair for months now, that she’s just kind of “checked out”.  Even if she at one point felt she had the lightning-bolt type of love for her husband, now that she realizes that that wasn’t enough to keep him from cheating on her (nor was her money, their mutual children, or this sort of public eventuality), I find it entirely possible that her “cool” demeanor and her relationships-are-hard-work attitude could come from the fact that she’s been living with this crap for months, possibly with nobody to talk with about it, and she’s had to become calculating and cold in order to keep herself together.

Comment #18: roro80  on  06/25  at  07:19 PM

the idea that he may never have let himself feel this way or never been exposed to the lightning strike of love before…

Then again, we don’t know what his love-letters to Jenny sounded like.  Not that I want to know…

Comment #19: FlipYrWhig  on  06/25  at  07:20 PM

Then again, we don’t know what his love-letters to Jenny sounded like.  Not that I want to know…

Fair enough. And I wouldn’t want to read them either…

Comment #20: Lurker 2.0  on  06/25  at  07:24 PM

I don’t know how to tell “actually in love” from “quickly coming up with a somewhat coherent explanation for WTF you’ve been doing.”

Obviously, it’s hard to say, but I was going more for the fact that he’s actually claiming he did it because of love when most of the other famous guys who’ve gotten caught haven’t even bothered to claim that.  (Of course, it would have been pretty gross for, say, Spitzer to claim he fucked prostitutes because he deeply loved all 10 of them.)

Just the mere fact that he’s saying it makes him pretty unusual.

Comment #21: Mnemosyne  on  06/25  at  07:24 PM

Completely OT, but the LA Times is now reporting that Michael Jackson has died (TMZ had it about half an hour ago).

Comment #22: Mnemosyne  on  06/25  at  07:26 PM

Jenny Sanford’s epic press release telling her side of the story is stuffed to the gills with the “love is work” mentality, and in the hands of right wingers, the sexism that underpins this marriage-as-joyless-drudgery mentality rises to the surface.

See, I thought her press release was masterful.  She’s deftly directing all the ire away from herself and placing it squarely on him.

She’s not a shrew; she discovered an affair, he wouldn’t end it, so she asked him to step away for a little bit.  She’s open to continuing in the marriage and giving him another chance to do right by her.  Standing by her man, without actually standing there.

Looked to me like she totally understands Southern Christianists and how they’ll behave.

Comment #23: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  06/25  at  07:27 PM

Amanda, I love this post. And isn’t the fun of blogging that we can explore all the angles and not just the overtly political? I don’t see any need to defend yourself on that count. Rock on.

I initially wasn’t going to read Sanford’s emails, thinking I’d only feel icky and want the media to butt out of people’s personal lives. But doggonit, the emails humanized Sanford for the first time. Don’t get me wrong; politically, he’s a trainwreck, and we can be so, so glad that his national career just went down in flames. (Daisy Deadhead said on my blog that McCain’s people actually unearthed Sanford’s affair, and that’s why they trotted up to Alaska for a running mate.) But personally? To my surprise, I felt compassion for the guy. I think his life has been stunted, what with his culture warring and moral-coding and his politicking and posturing. And I believe he was utterly blind-sided by even the existence of love.

I also suspect that our collective need to pillory politicians says more about our shared insecurities about marriage than about our ethics. I blogged about this at my place, so I won’t rehash it here except to say that none of us ought to be throwing stones. We can never have x-ray vision into the inner workings of other people’s marriages or long-term relationships. Nor can we know how we’ll comport ourselves in the future.

Just possibly, though, if we all got off those impossibly high horses we tend to ride when it comes to adultery, there might be less of it - because we’d realize none of us is immune to cheating.

Comment #24: Sungold  on  06/25  at  07:34 PM

What I don’t understand is why, if he was really in love, he didn’t simply get a quiet, civilized divorce, and then, after a decent interval, remarry.  That would have been scandalous a half century or so ago, but we’ve already had a divorced man in the presidency, as well as several other divorced nominees (mostly of the party supported by the religious right), and no one treated it as a big deal. 

Tomcatting around, particularly with “inappropriate” partners (prostitutes, employees, interns, boys) can still get you in trouble, but not serial mongamy.  And of course, the one thing you can’t let an affair do, if you want to remain a viable politician, is have it be perceived by the public as impacting your performance of your job

Comment #25: rea  on  06/25  at  07:48 PM

This is thoroughly unrelated to anything in this thread, but I know that you post a lot about music as well, so…

The King of Pop, Michael Jackson, has died of cardiac arrest.  He was 50 years old.

Comment #26: DTG in STL  on  06/25  at  07:51 PM

Completely OT, but the LA Times is now reporting that Michael Jackson has died

Not so completely off-topic—Sanford must be much relieved to be bumped of the lead spot on the evening news.  Much like Sen. Ensign must have felt about Sanford . . .

Comment #27: rea  on  06/25  at  07:55 PM

f you face severe social costs.  If you experience love primarily as an exertion that you go through to accomplish a god-and-country-mandated marriage, then gay marriage probably doesn’t make much sense, since it’s prioritizing passion over social mandates.

Except that Sanford had sex with his “mandated wife”, not the blow your mind out passion sex but sex nonetheless. Of the kind he likes (supposing he is hetero).

Yeah, conservatives might see them as the same: “If I don’t get to fool around why does he get to sleep with the guy he wants ?” they ask, completely unaware that no one is asking heteros to never has sex again, but they think it is right to ask homosexuals to never “sin” again….

Gay people are condemned for having any kind of gay sex. The boring, 10 years with the same guy sex, the passionate sex, it doesn’t make a difference. Conservatives actually oppose gays having a “personal contract, a transaction” relationship, let alone the passionate, happy one.

To me comparing being “forced” to be in a boring marriage to being gay and forced to live like an heterosexual is akin to comparing bad sex with castration. Not remotely equal although both have an element of suppressing desire, one is the complete denial of ANY satisfying sexual experience, while the other is a blah/ boring experience.

Comment #28: Renmiri  on  06/25  at  07:56 PM

Just possibly, though, if we all got off those impossibly high horses we tend to ride when it comes to adultery, there might be less of it - because we’d realize none of us is immune to cheating.

I call bullshit.

You end a relationship before you start a new one.  Even if it’s hard.

I don’t care that he might have felt passion for the first time.  That’s sad, but he had 4 children and a marriage.  If his passion for Maria was his big soul matey thing, then it would be strong enough to wait for him to disentangle himself from Jenny.  But he didn’t do that because he was a selfish hypocrite—and it’s that behavior that he’s getting called out on.

He was acting out of the privilege all the GOP Christianists act out on—high morals are for thee, not me.  My case is speshul, my love is a snowflake/my abortion is necessary, I’m a victim of passion and the media, and I’m super duper sorry and believe Jaysus is my savior, so that makes it all hunky-dory.

You follow through on your responsibilities if you’re a grown up, and that means telling your wife you’re in love with someone else and getting a divorce, not sneaking around.

Yeah, Dear Abbey had her famous “are you better off with him or without him” question, and depending on what your marriage is, your answers will change.  But adultery is a deal breaker for me.  My husband knows it, too.

You will be found out.  The relationship will never be the same, even if you decide to stay married.  So why the big fear?  Announce it, deal with the ramifications, and then start with someone new.

Comment #29: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  06/25  at  07:56 PM

...I need that bang maid…

Comment #30: humanadverb  on  06/25  at  07:58 PM

A lot of falling in love happens because people want it to happen—-they seek out people that they have a lot in common with, people that might present an opportunity for passion.  They also work on making themselves people who value passion, developing pleasures and interests and personality traits that make it easier for passion to enter their lives.

I’ve been meeting more people lately, and from various walks of life, and it amazes me how many people just really aren’t passionate about anything, have no real interests to speak of, don’t get excited about much of anything.  I used to think people like that were outliers, but now I’m not so sure.  And it stands to reason that someone who can’t get excited about art, music, literature, sports (either as a participant or observer), career, etc. also can’t/won’t get excited about love.

Comment #31: keshmeshi  on  06/25  at  07:59 PM

“Just possibly, though, if we all got off those impossibly high horses we tend to ride when it comes to adultery, there might be less of it - because we’d realize none of us is immune to cheating.”

The only people who seem to be on a “high horse” regarding the morality of marriage, and just about everything else (except the accumulation of vast amounts of wealth), is the average Republican/wingnut/conservative.

Yes, people are people and cheating is all too common.  But it’s so common it’s just not that interesting… 

...until some asshole like Sanford gets caught doing exactly what he virulently denounced in others.  Then it’s a fascinating example of hypocrisy and schadenfreude.

If any group of people have earned the karmic and devastating periodic exposure of their hypocritical weaknesses, the holier-than-thou Republicans have got to be at the top of the list. 

Maybe if enough of this is known, the Rethugs, and their sycophants like Lieberman, might notch it down and we can return to tackling and solving the real problems this troubled country faces…

Comment #32: MikeEss  on  06/25  at  08:08 PM

The only people who seem to be on a “high horse” regarding the morality of marriage, and just about everything else (except the accumulation of vast amounts of wealth), is the average Republican/wingnut/conservative.

I have to say, one of the very few benefits to my brother cheating on and leaving his (now ex-) wife and their two small children was that he had to STFU about Bill Clinton being a bad person forevermore.

Of course, now my brother has fallen into the whole, “But it only happened because it was TWUE WUV!” mentality.  So I’m fully expecting Divorce #2 in about 10 years or so.

Comment #33: Mnemosyne  on  06/25  at  08:21 PM

Caren and MikeEss- I think that Sanford’s motives for maintaining a double life were a mix of the most craven (OMG I’ll wreck my career!!) and the more understandable (if I leave, what happens to my kids? can I just throw away 10 15 20 25 years with a woman I actually like and respect?).

He was hypocritical, for sure, but I think he was so stunned by love that he’s completely blind to his own hypocrisy.

I’m not saying adultery is OK, not at all! It’s just that when we leap to condemnation, we miss the chance to *understand* why people stray. I say this as the child of divorce (my dad cheated, repeatedly) and as a wife who’s coming up on 15 years of marriage without having slept with anyone other than my partner since we’ve been together (though I’ve surely been tempted at times).

Maybe karmic retribution is in play here, but I’m not willing to say only Republicans are on that high horse. We liberals ride the same horse when it suits us. I’m suggesting the view is better from the ground, where a certain healthy humility might redirect us all to the very *public* transgressions of Sanford and his ilk. (And mind you - I’m not mourning his lost brilliant career!)

Comment #34: Sungold  on  06/25  at  08:21 PM

People can’t help falling in love, or who they fall in love with.  I wish conservatives would take that into consideration when they vote other people’s rights away.  They obviously haven’t learned any lessons from all the hypocritical examples presented to them recently.  I doubt that they’ll learn this one either.

Comment #35: G Porgey  on  06/25  at  08:29 PM

Personally, I don’t give a rat’s patootie about this guy’s marriage or his feelings for his mistress. All I know is, one more smarmy, double-talking Republican asshole is on the skids, and hooray.

Comment #36: Bitter Scribe  on  06/25  at  08:41 PM

Completely OT, but the LA Times is now reporting that Michael Jackson has died.

Not so completely off-topic—Sanford must be much relieved to be bumped of the lead spot on the evening news.

This is very reminiscent of the whole Gary Condit situation… it was all that the pundits talked about for weeks and then one fateful Tuesday morning in September 2001, 4 planes were hijacked.  You never heard about Condit again.

Granted, the sudden unexpected death of the most famous pop musician of all time really doesn’t remotely compare to the events of 9/11, but the point is that you won’t hear a word about Mark Sanford in the mainstream media for the next few days because of Michael Jackson’s death.

This is the 21st Century version of Elvis dying.

Comment #37: DTG in STL  on  06/25  at  08:48 PM

Amanda,

As some commenters here already noted, love involves passion which is suspect not only because it is considered irrationally based and can cause an otherwise level-headed person to lose his/her senses, but also because it involves a loss of control, especially for men….not good in their…or in many parts of society’s views. 

I can easily see a good discussion on how much of this is descended from Enlightenment era ideas, how much from more recent eras, and how the privileging of logic and rationality over passion and emotions continues to influence this to the present time. 

*Grabs some popcorn and some OJ/soda*

Comment #38: exholt  on  06/25  at  08:51 PM

Do you stop loving one person when you love another?

Anyhow, Condit was found innocent, repeatedly.  Heck, they finally found the guy who probably killed her.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandra_Levy

Comment #39: Crissa  on  06/25  at  08:58 PM

I don’t know.  I’m not quite ready to say that he was experiencing passionate love nor that her letter is not about love.  To love someone in spite of them screwing up in a way that humiliates and brings judgment upon you is pretty remarkable.  His letters don’t necessarily scream passionate love for this particular woman but more for the idea of her.  The passages about her are wedged between passages about himself and, in particular, about his virile fantasies of “getting away from it all.”  I’m not convinced he loved her but the idea of an unattainable, slightly exotic lovah.  I think it fits into a right wing narrative that marriage is drudgery and wives are nags and a burden.  And, certainly, the right-wing response is that men in love are pussified but I’m not convinced this is passionate love or somehow breaking the right wing mold. 

I guess I hate in these situations it seems like the wife always gets put under the microscope no matter what she did.  And if, say, John Edwards were to ask for pity because he was in love I would find it pretty intolerable (not that I don’t already find him pretty intolerable).  I think both of these men found themselves in stressful situations and used fucking women who were not their wives as an outlet from the grind of their lives.

Comment #40: pennylane  on  06/25  at  08:59 PM

The King of Pop, Michael Jackson, has died of cardiac arrest.  He was 50 years old.

Along with Farrah Fawcett.  An unkind joke springs to mind, which I will forbear from repeating.

The celebrity law of threes suggest someone else will bite it soon.  Any suggestions?

As i said on the previous Sanford thread, don’t knock his emails.  Most people do not write well, and his senitment appears genuine. Any of us would look stupid if our pillow-talk was publicly broadcast.

Comment #41: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/25  at  09:16 PM

ummm, this just in:
‘Tonight’ sidekick Ed McMahon dies in LA at 86

Its almost freaky how right you are, PIATOR, like it had already happened or something….wink

Comment #42: staydaddy  on  06/25  at  09:40 PM

People can’t help falling in love, or who they fall in love with.

True.  But they can help fucking somebody while married to somebody else.  They can certainly help dropping their responsibilities to run off to their fuck buddy.  Hell, even if they can’t do either of those things, they can avoid being hypocritical asshats about sexuality and marriage.

Comment #43: libdevil  on  06/25  at  10:29 PM

Its almost freaky how right you are, PIATOR, like it had already happened or something….

I swear, I did not know this when I wrote my comment.

Comment #44: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/25  at  10:40 PM

When people implode like Sanford did, it’s usually because Two Things Which Must Be True are in conflict.  For him, it was that he had to be with the woman he loved, and that he had to be what he had brought himself up to believe was a “good” person.  Culture warriors don’t just play themselves on TV; they tend to believe that they are a vanguard of decency, called to fight against the Bad People on behalf of their values of domination and control.  And because they are values of control, they can be turned inward frighteningly quickly.

At any rate, the current going rate for a consensual fucking by a chief executive is to have him impeached, but not convicted, followed by the media making stuff up about his putative successor until a guy from the other political party wins instead.

Comment #45: Punditus Maximus  on  06/26  at  12:15 AM

Libdevil, you have misunderstood the point of my post.

Comment #46: G Porgey  on  06/26  at  12:15 AM

I wouldn’t be so hard on the wife. I read her as a woman who is really, finally, fed up. She’s known about this affair for months. She’s probably under tremendous pressure to continue playing dutiful wife. Which is probably why it took her until a couple weeks ago to kick him out of the house. And in the process of leaving, he probably told her a hundred lies about how the affair was over. Then the whole thing blows up on national television. It’s got to be taking tremendous strength for her to just hold her shit together.

Remember, Sanford discussed talking about this with his father-in-law, who he described as gentlemanly. The fact that there was a conversation with the father-in-law that didn’t involve the in-laws thumping Sanford on the head or doing destructive things to his privates tells me that even her own family is pressuring her to go the reconciliation be-a-good-wife route.

Comment #47: Phoebe Fay  on  06/26  at  12:19 AM

And in the process of leaving, he probably told her a hundred lies about how the affair was over.

Remember the whole part where they looked into his car at the airport and he had camping equipment in the back?

Yeah.  Once she heard “airport,” she was done with him.

Comment #48: Mnemosyne  on  06/26  at  01:39 AM

Phoebe Fay:  “Remember, Sanford discussed talking about this with his father-in-law, who he described as gentlemanly.”

Yes, two men discussing the disposition of their property.

Comment #49: oldfeminist  on  06/26  at  02:51 AM

Real men prove it by treating women like sex-and-housework-dispensing appliances,

This immediately made me think of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQvclp590rA (got to 6:54 - couldn’t find a shorter version)

For those of who like British panel comedy shows, it’s a collection of Mock the Week bits.

Comment #50: Theron  on  06/26  at  03:03 AM

Amanda, you have jumped the shark.

An arrogant heartless, rignt wing conservative who is not only a moral scold, not only a bigot who wants to deny rights to LGBT, but also a fiscal extremist who was ready to let the poor of his state suffer on principle until his own party took him to court writes some smarmy and to me self-regarding emails while betraying his wife. Emails which do not read to me like passion, but itemized paragraphs wallowing in cheap sentiment and manipulation which are about his own ego an imposing his own fantasy upon the desired object - whose own marriage he helped ruin for his own ends.

Meanwhile his wife doesn’t do the thing many feminists have complained about, appearing by her man at a press conference in a humiliation ritual. Instead, because she’s a mother with kids and responsibilities creating higher stakes than he’s facing, she issues a statement trying to deal with an agonizing, complex situation in public which starts with a declaration of love and attempts to balance standing up for herself while also inviting him back - if he makes an effort to change. Which is hardly an unemotional act, just a compromised one because she’s a betrayed person woman trying to negotiate a sexist society.

And this prompts you to agree with a random male Salon commenter who blames the wife for being a cold so-and-so who knows nothing of passion, producing a loveless marriage which failed the moment Sanford got a taste of real love.

Now, you know nothing of Jenny Sanford save her politics aren’t yours, plus her situation is open to imposing your recent fascination with the concept of “marriage is hell and requires constant work” and kind of buys into a narrative which shames and blames her and implies she’s also part of the “karmic punishment.”

Except, of course, one of the books you’ve been citing “Against Love” is not just about marriage, but how the concept of love itself is rooted in sexist power systems. And what is going on here is a perfect example of that - Mark Sanford has a midlife crisis, decides to leave his wife for a woman he deems “sophisticated” and “exotic”, reflecting a typical racist white guy fetish for the other, and he uses love as a pretext for selfishness. Some respond by dragging out the old “well, she must have been lacking something if she can’t keep her man” misogyny - including an alleged feminist observer.

You know, some of the regular Salon sexists are using this to indulge the meme that American women are too picky and unromantic and only foreign women appreciate men. Which is a sign something else uglier is going on here, which you’ve overlooked.

Comment #51: TrenchantOkay  on  06/26  at  08:35 AM

Trenchant you make some good points, but I guess that to me I don’t understand why we have to demonize anyone in this, him or her.  Why is it so hard for us to face the truth?  Human beings aren’t wired to get hot for someone they’ve lived with for 20 years.

It’s just such bullshit to pretend that if someone, after 20 years, is drooling to fuck someone else, that makes them a scumbag, regardless of their gender.  Romantic love does not last for 20 years.  Period.  I hate when I hear people married for decades claiming they fuck their brains out five times a week and oh my husband can’t get enough of me.  Yeah, he can, and he did, a long time ago, and so did you.  Give it a rest.  I always roll my eyes at that shit.

I just think it’s time to grow up and admit to ourselves that though romantic love can turn into something else, and something very important, and even something that causes us to know we do not want to do without this person, it’s not romantic love anymore, and chances are you will eventually either fall in love, or at the very least, fall in lustful infatuation, with another person.  Some deprive themselves of fulfillment in those cases and then congratulate themselves on being moral.  I say, you’re going to die and turn to dust eventually, why do you want such a head start?

Comment #52: Lady Vader  on  06/26  at  09:11 AM

It’s all so very dreary and colorless, but it honestly never occurred to me that it might be a worldview that is effective at making the lives of those who subscribe to it so completely passionless.  I just thought they were utterly irrational and in denial.

Yes, absolutely. This in something I try to understand as well, though its really hard… that in the US at least, right and left not only disagree, we seriously totally misunderstand each other on a deep level. They certainly look at us with projection, but sometimes we project onto them as well, not because we want to hate them, but because our only references for understanding their behavior are within our own personalities. This misleads us.

Comment #53: atheist  on  06/26  at  09:21 AM

My point, Amanda, was that you were trying to say that the whole “marriage is hell and requires constant work” thesis is some plank of right wing ideology as opposed to being an obvious reality accepted by people from all across political spectrum.

No, otis the sweaty, it is you who do not understand. Amanda is pointing out that in fact the emotional territories of right wingers and left wingers are deeply divergent. This is the salient point.

And, believe it or not, not all people consider marriage to be drudgery. In assuming that all people believe as you do, you are making the same error as many. It is not true that “marriage is hell” is an “accepted reality” for everyone.

Comment #54: atheist  on  06/26  at  09:25 AM

You know, some of the regular Salon sexists are using this to indulge the meme that American women are too picky and unromantic and only foreign women appreciate men. Which is a sign something else uglier is going on here, which you’ve overlooked.

Trenchant, you’re being “feminist” but you are missing the deeper issue. The deeper issue is the one that people often dismiss: passion is real, and when you feel it you will act like a fool.  None of the rest of the analysis matters if you miss that point.

Comment #55: atheist  on  06/26  at  09:30 AM

The point is, not everyone accepts that marriage is ‘hard work’. You believe that Amanda is an anomaly. You are wrong.

Comment #56: atheist  on  06/26  at  09:45 AM

Otis, I don’t know how useful my anecdotal evidence is, but I’ve been married almost ten years.  It’s not hard work.  If my partnership was hard work I don’t know how we’d get through all the rest of our lives with such light hearts.  If marriage was as hard as, say, my job, or the reality of bills, or medical issues, I don’t know what motivation I would have had to sign up.

My marriage is the easiest thing about my life.  There’s no way I’m going to accept a script that translates everything, including my love, passion, and desire, into drudgery.

I accept that Amanda is not addressing some very sexist tropes about marriage by addressing this event in this way, but maybe that’s because this is an important lens that people haven’t been using.  The Republican mindset especially is designed to leech joy from your life, or make it into something illicit that you must steal and keep secret.  We could use a new script, because as unsympathetic as I am to this particular tool, I would like to see this kind of thing happen less often.  That’s only possible if people understand and honor their own passions and desires and incorporate them into their life decisions.

I’ve managed it in my personal life, and so my marriage is not hard work.  Now if only I had managed to do it with my career…

Comment #57: Eileen  on  06/26  at  10:01 AM

My marriage is the easiest thing i’ve ever done, and adds only joy to my life.  Of course, we don’t have kids and never will…

Comment #58: Gavel Down  on  06/26  at  10:40 AM

Amanda, you have jumped the shark.

(Why do people feel the need to be rude as well as contrary?)

Comment #59: atheist  on  06/26  at  10:47 AM

Because people get really defensive when you start talking about marriage.  I suspect it’s because for some it’s the only thing they ever accomplished.  Man I have been on the receiving end of some really vicious statements from married women who really were deeply invested in the idea that because I am not married, I must want to be but no one would marry me. 

It’s weird.

Comment #60: Lady Vader  on  06/26  at  10:51 AM

Amanda, you have jumped the shark.

Yeah, but don’t expect her to marry it.

Comment #61: Ms Kate  on  06/26  at  10:52 AM

Caton, you are not married and do not want to be ... so how can you pass judgement on others satisfaction and presume that your experience of the world applies to them? 

Your pronouncements of “human beings are wired for this and not for that” bely your ignorance of variation in the human experience.  Gee, and bonabos this and cavemen that and essentialist argument blah.

Be happy with your state of being ... just don’t assume that everybody else MUST be unhappy or you are simply doing EXACTLY what you criticize in people who assume you are unhappy or unmarriageable.  The opposite of dead wrong is not right, and, sometimes, it is simply a duplication of the same logical error with different content.

Comment #62: Ms Kate  on  06/26  at  10:58 AM

The more I see about this matter, the more I believe that the real tragedy of right-wing thinking and worldview here is that Jenny Sandford isn’t the governor and Mark isn’t off hiking with the kids, teaching them to fish and hunt, and trouping around as the caretaker dad while she runs the state.

Comment #63: Ms Kate  on  06/26  at  11:01 AM

there is no way you are going to convince me that having a successful relationship does not require work

Compromise sometimes, sure, but no more than any other friendship or roommate arrangement, and usually much less.

Comment #64: Gavel Down  on  06/26  at  11:14 AM

It also reduces a lot of hard work that is otherwise involved in taking care of oneself as an adult.  Two people to do errands, remember schedules, pay bills, etc.  I remember the first time I was able to pick up a prescription for my wife - it was awesomely trouble free.  I can stop by CVS and the wine store while she picks up ingredients for dinner, etc.  Done right, having someone to share responsibility really eases stress for both people.

Comment #65: Gavel Down  on  06/26  at  11:17 AM

Because Kate, people married for decades aren’t having passionate sex.  Most of them aren’t having sex at all.  The biggest demographic that simply isn’t discussed are couples in sexless marriages.

I know that a lot of people are very invested in putting on a facade, or being in denial, but it just isn’t happening.

I never said that this fact meant they couldn’t be happy or still have deep emotional needs being met by their spouse.

But their physical needs aren’t part of that.

Comment #66: Lady Vader  on  06/26  at  11:27 AM

Caton:

“There are good marriages. However, there are no delectable marriages.”

-La Rochefoucauld

You’re right, it’s totally unrealistic to expect passionate love to last for years & years. For some, the companionship & freindship makes up for that.. for others, being married is just a drag, kept up for appearances’ sake.

Comment #67: atheist  on  06/26  at  11:32 AM

The only point of view here I disagree with is the one expressed by otis the sweaty: that marriage/relationships are necessary evils, that marriage is “hell”. I just don’t think this is true for everyone. I think this is an over-cynical point of view.

Comment #68: atheist  on  06/26  at  11:35 AM

Because Kate, people married for decades aren’t having passionate sex.  Most of them aren’t having sex at all.

And you are so sure of this?  You know this ... how? 

That’s my point ... you DON’T know this.  You are assuming it based on a blanket worldview that does not reflect the richness and diversity of human experience. This “truthy thruthism” is every bit as much the kind of essentialism about the human condition that people who say “men MUST want to rape because of caveman competition” or “women just want to get married for security”, etc.

Comment #69: Ms Kate  on  06/26  at  11:43 AM

Disclaimer: if you want the Wilt Life, go for it.  If you dont’ want to marry, more power to you.  If you don’t want to stay married, fine - your business.  And, yes, people get into ruts and get unhappy, etc.

However, these things don’t happen to everybody, and I simply don’t think these sorts of blanket statements should get a pass because they are our essentialist truthiness, goddamn it!  I also remember that my great grandparents were still slapping each other’s butts and getting busy well into their 80s.

Comment #70: Ms Kate  on  06/26  at  11:47 AM

I think a lot of the perception of drudgery come from the fact that we build up marriage as the apex of self-fulfillment and meaning, the happy ending, and it rarely lives up to the promise. 

Marriage is often work not only because sometimes you have to do things you don’t want to do for the good of the other person but also because life throws us curveballs.  Sure, it’s nice to share the day to day burdens but sometimes one of you is ill and the other person has to pick up the slack, or you lose a job and while it’s nice to have someone to fall back on it also requires disagreements and discussions about how to handle the situations. 

Perhaps completely irrelevant, but the Christianist/right wing marital literature actually has a lot to say about having hawt married sex and not just “ladies, do it to keep him from straying.”  James Dobson has written about how important it is for men to physically satisfy their women.  He even gives them suggestions *shudder*

Comment #71: pennylane  on  06/26  at  11:55 AM

“Be happy with your state of being ... just don’t assume that everybody else MUST be unhappy or you are simply doing EXACTLY what you criticize in people who assume you are unhappy or unmarriageable.  The opposite of dead wrong is not right, and, sometimes, it is simply a duplication of the same logical error with different content.”

This, times eleventy-seven million. Perfectly said, Ms. Kate. How many of the problems with marriages can be boiled down to people or People feeling the need to tell other people how their marriage needs to be? 57 percent, that’s how many.

Comment #72: witless chum  on  06/26  at  12:45 PM

Because Kate, people married for decades aren’t having passionate sex.  Most of them aren’t having sex at all.  The biggest demographic that simply isn’t discussed are couples in sexless marriages.

This is just nonsense. Where do you get your data that says “most” long-term married people aren’t having sex? Statistics routinely show that married people have more sex than non-married people. Older adults do have less sex than younger adults in general, but large numbers of older adults are satisfied with their sex lives. Plenty of studies show that people are having sex well into their droopy butts and baggy boobs years. We might get icked out by the thought of grandma and grandpa getting it on, but it DOES happen.

Unless you’ve got some data to back up this claim, I think you’re just extrapolating from a few bad examples.

Comment #73: Phoebe Fay  on  06/26  at  12:54 PM

Unless you’ve got some data to back up this claim, I think you’re just extrapolating from a few bad examples.

Or the plot of virtually every American sitcom?

Comment #74: pennylane  on  06/26  at  01:07 PM

So are we loving the sinner, hating the sin then?

I am not ready to be all compassionate on this man; he already has enough privilege and second chances (I’m betting he’ll be back in politics or just never leave before long) in his White Man’s Backpack that he doesn’t need any sympathy from me.

I don’t doubt that this is the angle he’ll take; Forgive Me For I Have Loved. But I don’t give a rap; he has a responsibility to his constiuents not to go running off willy nilly because he fell in love. He is irresponsible and incapable of doing his job. What his emotional weather is like is nothing I’m interested in.

Would a woman who did what he did have a chance in politics ever again, or would Women Are Irrational types be all over that? Whatever, dude. Here’s a quarter, call someone who cares.

Comment #75: emjaybee  on  06/26  at  01:25 PM

If you never feel that sort of passion and suddenly it enters your life in middle age, what would you do?  You’d probably freak the fuck out, I’d guess.  Your entire worldview would change.  You’d babble about how much in love you are during a press conference.

Would you jump up and down on Opera’s couch?

Comment #76: cynickal  on  06/26  at  01:38 PM

Opps I seemed to have stirred up a hornet’s nest.  smile

Okay, people married for decades are having smoking sex and haven’t tired of each or become bored by familarity at all. Especially in YOUR marriage, whoever you might be.  All of yous.  lol

Comment #77: Lady Vader  on  06/26  at  03:25 PM

Gee Caton, can you be any more condescending?  But, hey, I guess superior attitude about your own certainty is a great substutute for things like, oh, facts, data, reality, and understanding that the world doesn’t conform to your essentialist stereotypes.

Go out and get it on - just stop projecting your fears and assumptions on others, ‘kay?

Comment #78: Ms Kate  on  06/26  at  03:40 PM

Caton is sad that everyone didn’t magically and automatically agree with Caton.

Comment #79: Eileen  on  06/26  at  03:54 PM

Real men prove it by treating women like sex-and-housework-dispensing appliances, and certainly don’t debase themselves by admiring or, god forbid, even respecting women.  Okay, I doubt that Olbermann and Finnegan would actually agree with that sentiment

I don’t know about that; Olbermann strikes me as exactly the type of old-school liberal who would unthinkingly treat women as appliances while being perfectly sincere about decrying sexism in the abstract.

And I’m sure in 15 years (or less) the same will be said of the likes of me. I’m working on it.

libdev:

Hell, even if they can’t do either of those things, they can avoid being hypocritical asshats about sexuality and marriage.

You know, I don’t know if they can. It’s difficult—-particularly, I think, if you’re a conservative—-to say “you know, I had a position on this issue, and I’ve given it a lot of thought, and I think I was wrong.” You can simply change your tune and hope no one notices, but if you’ve been outspoken, they will, especially in the Internet age. So even if you can’t act in accordance with your stated principles, you can’t restate your principles.

Caton:

Okay, people married for decades are having smoking sex and haven’t tired of each or become bored by familarity at all.

That’s equally a generalization. The point you’re pretending not to grasp is that you’re dividing long-term marrieds into exactly two groups: those who complain about how miserable they are and those who lie about being happy. And lo and behold, you find no genuinely happy long-married couples. And you give no basis for that, and you make it the foundation of your argument. And then you wonder whyh no one buys your argument.

Comment #80: Hershele Ostropoler  on  06/26  at  04:00 PM

Caton is sad that everyone didn’t magically and automatically agree with Caton

Exactly.  I would add that Caton is using his rectal orifice as a poor substitute for a voicebox.

I would add:  I don’t imagine that Caton, with his defeatist attitude, will have to personally address the nature of sex in a long-term relationship.

R.

Comment #81: Randomizer  on  06/26  at  05:40 PM

Aww MsKate and the others beat me to it. 

Granted, the Geek Husband What Rules and I have only been married for fifteen years, so I guess we just haven’t reached Caton’s cut off mark for the constant sexin’ yet. 

It makes me sad that there are apparently a lot of people out there who haven’t or won’t feel the same passion for their partners that the Geek Husband and I still feel for each other.  And even more who seem to think that they can tell the rest of us what we feel, how and when.

Comment #82: GeekGirlsRule  on  06/26  at  06:01 PM

Olbermann strikes me as exactly the type of old-school liberal who would unthinkingly treat women as appliances while being perfectly sincere about decrying sexism in the abstract.

Would that be the reason that he issued an apology for a Countdown segment about what Vitter’s wife wore to his apology press conference, even when he didn’t host the show that the segment appeared on?

I’m sorry, but Olbermann bashing has become a liberal sport of late, and he isn’t perfect, but I doubt that he treats his girlfriend like an appliance, YMMV.

Comment #83: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/26  at  06:42 PM

“Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won’t feel insecure around you. We are all meant to shine, as children do. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It’s not just in some of us; it’s in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.”

Marianne Williamson may be into some smarmy stuff, but she did manage to paraphrase what a good number of philosophers over the ages have told us.

What does this have to do with Sanford and the rightwingnuts? They have the choice to live their lives out of love or out of fear, and they always choose fear. When seen in that context, the fear of passion, fear of vulnerability, and the plain cold fear of letting women and others live their own lives becomes quite clear. They can’t handle fear, love, courage, in their own lives and so won’t let the rest of us handle ours. That’s the crux of their system.

Comment #84: LCforevah  on  06/26  at  07:41 PM

LCforevah, I think that part of the issue is that politicians of all persuasions tend to be risk takers and sensation seekers, and wingnuts in particular are romantics and get that all screwed up with more patriarchy than liberals do.

The idea that God decided that marriage is between man and woman is a romantic notion.  The constant wingnut emphasis on presenting a happy marriage is romantic.  The idealization of marriage is romantic.  Add the same impulsiveness, that belief that one has no self control that leads them to believe that all people have to be forced into their romantic notions for their own good and you get these massive flameouts when reality intrudes.

Comment #85: Ms Kate  on  06/26  at  10:45 PM

For crissakes. Am I actually reading this on Pandagon? Sanford is the poor, misunderstood hero, trapped in a loveless Christianist marriage while Twoo Wuv awaits him in Argentina, while the wife he cheated on is a nasty-ass bitch? (Oh, and the kids? Who gives a fuck, they don’t fit in the narrative, ignore them.) Really, truly not following that the alternative to the Christianist stand-by-your-man, Marriage Is Everything narrative is to run up and give Sanford a big ol’ hug for fucking another woman while his wife was raising his family for him.

Caton, you appear to be trying to convince yourself that marriage sucks so you can feel special about being unmarried.

Comment #86: mythago  on  06/27  at  03:58 AM

I like Olbermann a lot, and I get hints of him being a ordinary good guy—someone who has a lot of unconscious privilege and it shows, but is committed to Getting It and obviously doesn’t want to be a jerk.  So lots of back-and-forth.

Which is fine, to me:  he’s obviously trying to be a good person and succeeding most of the time.  So far as I can tell, that’s the best most of us can ever hope for.

Comment #87: Punditus Maximus  on  06/27  at  04:10 AM

Dude, Sanford doesn’t have to be Snidely Whiplash for his actions to make sense.  The Patriarchy Hurts Men, Too.

Comment #88: Punditus Maximus  on  06/27  at  04:12 AM

His actions actually make quite a bit of sense in a patriarchy. Wife is not as exciting, fresh and comely as the day you married her? Clearly, she’s driving him to cheat, and he has no recourse but into the loving arms of another, hotter and younger woman.

Comment #89: mythago  on  06/27  at  04:39 AM

Caton, you’re a fucking idiot.

Comment #90: stormhit  on  06/27  at  10:55 AM

I thought that Caton was female.  (Shrugs.)  Gender Genie thinks so too!

Words: 1841
(NOTE: The genie works best on texts of more than 500 words.)

Female Score: 3061
Male Score: 2618

The Gender Genie thinks the author of this passage is: female!

I don’t know about anybody else but I needed that bit of whimsy.  I just read this thread on treeware in the tub and found it fascinating.

Comment #91: seeker6079  on  06/27  at  11:06 AM

The idea that God decided that marriage is between man and woman is a romantic notion. 

I have no idea what this means, unless you’re using “romantic” to mean “stifling and authoritarian.”

Comment #92: junk science  on  06/27  at  12:56 PM

Junk science, believing in God and thinking that God did something special just for you is very much a romantic notion!

Mythago, is this “other woman” younger?  I thought she had teen age to young adult children, no?  I do suspect that she is “exotic” though.  Sandford is a total douchebag, absolutely.  I think the question here is why do fundy marriages produce douchebags and apologists, and how have these twisted notions of marriage perfused society.

Comment #93: Ms Kate  on  06/27  at  01:27 PM

But this isn’t really a fundamentalist marriage issue. Hell, pop evo-biologists argue that hormones mean we have ‘ideal mates’ who we can detect by hip-to-waist ratio or pheremones in their sweat or some kind of crap like that. Take God out of the equation here and you don’t really change the narrative a bit - middle-aged man falls for Exotic Babe after 20 years of being a married family guy and longs for his new, exciting love. Puff it out with a lot of meandering and I understand you can get yourself labeled a Great American Author.

Comment #94: mythago  on  06/27  at  04:30 PM

A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE:  My take on the falling in love story is that he’s using it as an EXCUSE for having committed adultery - he’s claiming it wasn’t just lust. 

And it’s just fascinating to me that these politicians are never love smitten by ordinary looking women, only with gorgeous women. The only exception I know of is Clinton and Lewinsky.

Comment #95: Texas Reader  on  06/27  at  08:22 PM

for once, Maureen Dowd has something intelligent to say about all this tawdry stuff: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/28/opinion/28dowd.html

Comment #96: Ms Kate  on  06/27  at  10:54 PM

Dark Avenger

Olbermann strikes me as exactly the type of old-school liberal who would unthinkingly treat women as appliances while being perfectly sincere about decrying sexism in the abstract.

Would that be the reason that he issued an apology for a Countdown segment about what Vitter’s wife wore to his apology press conference, even when he didn’t host the show that the segment appeared on?

Well, yeah. That’s precisely my point. Someone pointed out that his locum fucked up and he apologized. Good on him, I can’t see Limbaugh doing it (Obama noticed his own gaffe and apologized before it even aired; better than either is not to make the mistake in the first place). But none of that speaks to how he thinks of women, only how he acknowledges he’s supposed to think of women, and probably how he thinks he thinks of women.

Being prodigal is not a virtue in and of itself, by me. YMMV.

mythago

Am I actually reading this on Pandagon? Sanford is the poor, misunderstood hero, trapped in a loveless Christianist marriage while Twoo Wuv awaits him in Argentina, while the wife he cheated on is a nasty-ass bitch?

Er, you may be. I missed the second part.

Comment #97: Hershele Ostropoler  on  06/28  at  12:10 AM

But none of that speaks to how he thinks of women, only how he acknowledges he’s supposed to think of women, and probably how he thinks he thinks of women.

Well, HO, since neither of us are mind-readers, why can’t you take his action at face value, or is this another Internet version of “No true Scotsman”?

Comment #98: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/28  at  01:20 AM

Erm, yes… I also missed the part where Amanda described Mrs. Sanford as a “nasty-ass bitch”. I’ll go read it again.

Nope, still didn’t see it. Maybe you mean the part where she describes the press conference as being “stuffed to the gills with the ‘love is work’ mentality”? But, you know, Amanda points out that they probably *both* had this world view, at least up until now. And I don’t recall her insulting Mrs. Sanford or blaming her for her husband’s infidelity.

As far as I can tell, both Sanfords seem to have decided on a passionless marriage (note: I said “seem to”- maybe it started out great for one or both of them), so looking at it in the light of a business contract, as long as both of them fulfill their side of the bargain that they knowingly entered into, they are each responsible for their own marital bliss / lack thereof. However, Mr. Sanford broke the rules, and he is entirely to blame for the pain that it caused his family (and even if Mrs. Sanford *was* completely fine with it, he would still be a jerk for doing that to his kids, so the whole bargain thing is kind of irrelevant anyway).

Comment #99: Zef  on  06/28  at  02:18 PM

Re: Sanford’s letters and The Bridges of Madison County.
Maybe it’s not really “real men don’t love”. Maybe it’s “stilted ‘romantic’ prose deserves to be mocked.”

Comment #100: Liz212  on  06/28  at  05:41 PM

I am taking his actions at face value, I’m just not taking it as the last word. No where did I (intend to) say that there was anything false or insincere about Olbermann’s apology; no where did I (intend to) suggest that it’s not how he truly feels about that aspect of the issue. If you asked him if he’s sexist I’m sure he’d say that on balance, he isn’t—-and he’d mean it, too, he wouldn’t just say it because he knows he’s supposed to.

Comment #101: Hershele Ostropoler  on  06/28  at  08:26 PM

I’m just not taking it as the last word

no where did I (intend to) suggest that it’s not how he truly feels about that aspect of the issue.

none of that speaks to how he thinks of women

Olbermann strikes me as exactly the type of old-school liberal who would unthinkingly treat women as appliances while being perfectly sincere about decrying sexism in the abstract.

You been drawing a lot of inferences from scanty data, and your attempt to walk it back is admirable, if not altogether incoherent, I apologize for pointing out this fact in advance.

As someone close in age to “That Old Man”, as my noble spouse, Ilocano Avenger once called him, and an old-school liberal who was taught NOT to treat people, women or men, as appliances, I may be identifying with him too closely, but YMMV.

Comment #102: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/28  at  11:14 PM

Maybe it’s “stilted ‘romantic’ prose deserves to be mocked.”

Maybe it’s “stilted romantic prose never intended for public consumption will be mocked”.

Then again, this wasn’t written to win a romantic poetry contest, either.  It is a bit juvenile to get too derisive over it in and of itself because it was never meant for general circulation, just like that love note from boy to girl in high school never was ... even if it did get intercepted and read aloud repeatedly.

Comment #103: Ms Kate  on  06/29  at  08:47 AM

Ms Kate, I would never, EVER, describe American politicians as risk takers. They are one of the most risk-averse groups on the planet. As for your use of the term “romantic” you need to elaborate. Given the opinion that I have that conservatives do everything from a motivation of fear, there is no way that anything they do can be labeled “romantic”. The classic definition of romance includes the concepts of risk taking and courage. Two attributes conservatives deeply lack.

I am completely convinced that behind all the Republican posturing and bravado is nothing but stone cold fear.

Comment #104: LCforevah  on  06/29  at  12:11 PM

Ms Kate, I take your point that Sanford’s letters were not meant for public consumption, and the man is not a writer. But “The Bridges of Madison County” is still terrible.

Comment #105: Liz212  on  06/29  at  05:09 PM

Dark Avenger:

As someone close in age to “That Old Man”, as my noble spouse, Ilocano Avenger once called him, and an old-school liberal who was taught NOT to treat people, women or men, as appliances, I may be identifying with him too closely, but YMMV.

Possibly. I’ll be 31 in the fall.

Twenty-five years ago, when Olbermann was in his mid-20s, there was serious discussion among people considered normal about whether a woman with young children should have jobs. Now, Mama Ostropoler did (and does), and now I don’t consider people who deem the issue to require discussion normal (and don’t even ask me about the expectation that women will change their names when they get married). I don’t know if he considers that in particular a worthwhile debate, but my point is that 31-year-old feminists’ values and concerns have changed since 1990, and I don’t think his have changed to the same degree, not because he’s insincere, or not committed to the cause, or secretly a misogynist, but just because he’s no longer 31 and because it doesn’t directly affect him*. And again, I certainly run the risk that in 20 years all this will apply to me. I don’t want that or embrace it, and I’d like to avoid it (one reason I read Pandagon et al., TBH), but I’m not claiming I’m above it.

*Though talking to Laura Ingraham didn’t help.

Comment #106: Hershele Ostropoler  on  06/30  at  09:31 PM

I don’t think his have changed to the same degree, not because he’s insincere, or not committed to the cause, or secretly a misogynist, but just because he’s no longer 31 and because it doesn’t directly affect him*

Except that he has a girlfriend younger than 31, so that might just make a difference in his perceptions, FWIW.

Comment #107: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  07/02  at  11:10 AM
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