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Next entry: God finally calls 91-year-old Oral Roberts home Previous entry: Non-voters need results to vote, not scolding

The limits of anti-violence slogans

Crime

Apparently, on that show “Jersey Shore”, there was going to be a scene—-highly advertised—-where a dude up and punches a woman in the face.  What’s unusual about this is that it happened on camera and in a situation where male-on-female violence isn’t that common (that I know of)—-they’re not in a relationship, and he wasn’t trying to subdue her for sexual assault or anything like that.  Apparently, it was a typical bar fight situation.  But the unusual nature of the violence, and the taboo about hitting women, is such that MTV was initially going to run the scene with a disclaimer about how assaulting women is a crime (actually, assaulting anyone is a crime), and now they’ve just pulled it, though leaving in all other violence that doesn’t involve a man laying a direct punch to a woman’s face.  Which of course brings up the inevitable question as to why a non-domestic violence bar brawl kind of situation should be pulled unlike other scenes of violence (including some actual domestic violence).  Unfortunately, it gives the impression that MTV is condoning the other kinds of violence, just not a man punching a woman in the face.  Cue the MRAs talking about how women have special rights. 

Of course, the real reason is that there’s this long-standing chivalric rule that a man should never hit a woman.  It’s really hard to protest against this long-standing tradition, and our great unease at the “Jersey Shore” punch shows why.  A man who hits a woman is basically taking full advantage of his greater size and strength to fuck someone up he has every reason to believe cannot reasonably defend herself.  But this whole situation reminds us that there’s more going on with this rule that needs to be examined, particularly the role chivalry plays in the creation of it, and why it’s simply an inadequate response to violence against women. 

To start thinking about this, I want to revisit this whiny, misguided post by Cord Jefferson at JezebelI talked about it earlier in the context of domestic violence, but didn’t want to digress into talking about the rest of his post, which is basically about how women are more privileged than men because men are in danger of the face punch from men in bars, whereas women merely have to contend with rape, sexual harassment, and domestic violence due to the patriarchy. To illustrate how men are so oppressed at the hands of women, Cord tells a story: He and a female friend are in a bar.  Some men in the bar sexually harass his friend. She makes the choice to defend herself by dumping nachos on them.  Cord runs over and, well, here’s the rest of the story:

The three men immediately stood up and squared off with my friend, and I ran over and put myself between them and her. “I’m sorry she did that,” I told them, my friend still screaming obscenities at them behind me. “But let’s let this one go, huh?” They didn’t. Instead, one of them cracked me in the side of the face while I turned around to try and calm my friend, who was in tears at that point. I fell hard, hitting my skull on a table on the way down.

When I came to, my face was in a pool of my own blood, and an ambulance was on its way. I couldn’t remember where I was, and the guy who beat me was long gone. But to this day I’m almost certain I knew what he was thinking the instant before he smashed my face in and gave me 36 stitches in my head: “I can’t hit a woman.”

From the details he offers, this is how he thinks it should have gone: Dudes harass his friend.  She accepts her role as a second class citizen.  Perhaps she walks over and thanks them for reminding her that she’s not a full human being.  Everyone wins.  Everyone who counts, anyone, so everyone male wins.

Or perhaps, dudes harass his friend.  She goes home and cries, but doesn’t question their right to treat her like a second class citizen.  Wishes she was born a man.

Or maybe, his friend revolts against being harassed.  The men put the bitch down for daring to get uppity with a solid punch to the face.  She and all women learn that they question the patriarchy at danger to their own hides.


One thing is certain.  He does not think that anyone was in the wrong until his friend objected to be told she was a member of the sex class to be disposed of as random dudes in a bar like.  The only real problem is that the amount of abuse and violence perfect strangers can dish out to women is limited to sexual abuse, and physical violence should be added to the list.  Except of course that it is.  I don’t know why his friend was brave enough to confront those guys that night.  Maybe it was because she had friends around, or one drink too many, or because she was simply fed up with putting up with douchebags and their sexist bullshit.  But what I do know is this: Most of the time most women deal with sexual harassment by keeping our head down and trying to escape the situation without giving any response if we can at all help it.  Why?  Because contrary to Cord’s whining assumptions, women do in fact think that men will hit women—-and rape them and stalk them—-and we don’t want to give a man who selects us for harassment any reason to think he’s justified in escalating the violence because we looked like we were insufficiently submissive to it. That it may not happen that often doesn’t mean that we don’t fear it.  All it takes is once.  And a man who harasses you has already indicated that he’s targeted you.

I would argue that what Cord discovered is not that women need to be popped in the face on occasion so that everything is equal between men and women.  What he learned was that when it comes to the patriarchy, sexist men will enforce the rules not just on women, but on other men who seem insufficiently committed to the art of oppressing women.  There are a number of ways men keep each other in line.  They call each other “pussy” and question each other’s manhood if someone objects to the sexist milieu in any way.  They demand showy displays of masculine callousness to get into the club.  And sometimes if a man pushes back against sexism—-or even seems to—-they whip out violence.  Cord wants to blame women for thinking they’re “precious” for getting hit.  But he and everyone else knows that it’s sexism that’s to blame.  He knew it going in, because he tried to escape the violence by agreeing that women should be sexually harassed by strangers to these guys.  But the mere fact that he was willing to get involved apparently dissuaded them from believing in his commitment to maintaining high levels of sexual harassment, so they popped him.  The lesson here is not that women should be more eager to be treated like subhumans.  The lesson is that sexual harassment is a dominance display, and the harassers will often resort to violence to maintain the dominance they desire. 

And this leads us to why “never hit a woman” is a problematic tradition.  Obviously, if the guy involved in this did in fact his Cord instead of his friend because he wanted to be seen as the guy who doesn’t hit women, it doesn’t buy women much.  He still thinks he owns women and can sexually harass them at will, and that he should never be held accountable for this.  “Never hit a woman” doesn’t really do much to address the underlying cause of violence against women, which is male dominance and misogyny. And, as we see here, it all too often gives men a “get out of jail free” card to be pigs in every other way, but convince themselves they’re good guys because they wouldn’t close fisted punch a woman in the face.  But many men who would never hit a woman nonetheless dominate women through humiliation, objectification, sexual harassment and assault, and other forms of violence such as shoving.  (In fact, “Jersey Shore” showed a man shoving his girlfriend without getting overly concerned about the message that sends.)  “Never hit a woman” doesn’t come from feminists; it’s an old-fashioned bit of chivalry.  And like all chivalry, it’s a matter of giving women a few showy, special rights (that can be rescinded at the drop of a hat in many cases) in order to justify denying us equality.  I’ve unfortunately dealt with a lot of men who pride themselves on never hitting women, even though they actually treat women like crap.

I do think most individuals who promote “never hit a woman” have the best of intentions—-they abhor violence, and they probably don’t think much of men who shove or humiliate women in other ways.  They’re attracted to the slogan because it’s a slogan, and because it’s so easy to drill into someone’s head.  But as these examples show, it’s a poor substitute for a feminist approach, where men work hard at treating women like they’re full human being who deserve that level of respect, even if every sector of society is screaming about their inferiority.  Truly respecting women hard work.  Never hitting a woman is a lot easier.  But of course, not hitting women is the automatic result of actually treating them like full human beings, instead of a second class that needs to be routinely put in their place.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 06:05 PM • (282) Comments

A guy gets his face bashed while trying to prevent violence to his friend and you call him whiny. Nice. Point taken. If you ever get into a bar fight, you’re on your own.

Comment #1: pablo  on  12/15  at  06:14 PM

grblflgh.  That’s the frustrated sound of me agreeing with just about everything you write here, and yet still understanding a little bit of where Jefferson is coming from.  A little bit.

It’s this:  The harassers were totally in the wrong.  Totally.  And the woman being harassed had every right in the world to stand up for herself—verbally.  As long as the harassment itself is non-physical, her response must be as well.  There is a bright and shining line that separates physical interactions from non-physical, and she crossed it first.

That doesn’t make her violent, or a batterer, or any such silliness.  Of course not.  But it does make her an idiot, who put herself and her companion in danger.  I can agree with everything you say in this post about patriarchy and male dominance, and still think that Jefferson has a reason to be upset that she crossed the physical line first, because she did so with no ability to back it up.  Her only protection at that point is (a) he can’t hit me because I’m a woman, or (b) Cord will protect me.

The harassers were wrong, wrong, wrong, I want to make that abundantly clear.  But she was not justified in crossing the physical line first, and it was stupid for her to do so.

Comment #2: elmo  on  12/15  at  06:25 PM

Recently, on a completely different blog, some guy actually suggested that when a man is ogling a woman in a way that makes her feel uncomfortable, it’s her responsibility to confront* the man and inform him that he’s being rude, because be genuinely oblivious that he’s making her feel uncomfortable.  I guess in his world, all men are completely polite, and they would thank the woman for elucidating them, then go on to live a better, less-rude life.  I tried to explain to him that there’s a good chance that the man will react negatively, especially if he’s already ogling women.  I didn’t even think of the possibility of physical violence, because being insulted, harassed, or guilt-tripped is bad enough.

*This is the actual term he used.

Comment #3: bananacat  on  12/15  at  06:28 PM

Um, who is he to apologize on her behalf?  Her owner?  What a douche.

Comment #4: Ms Kate  on  12/15  at  06:28 PM

pablo,
The problem is that he’s mad at his female friend for not taking a punch, rather than being mad at the men who not only punched him, but harassed his friend.  If you’re too stupid to see that, then I’m glad you’ll never “help” me, because I’d rather get punched than to be made to feel like I owe you.

Comment #5: bananacat  on  12/15  at  06:30 PM

Oh, and I’ve had douchebags threaten me, while saying that they aren’t hitting me because I’m not a man.  Right.  They don’t try because they could tell that they were smaller and likely not as strong as I am and they hide behind their “chivalry” because they would never live it down if I beat the living shit out of them defending myself.

Comment #6: Ms Kate  on  12/15  at  06:30 PM

And I wanted to jump in again to agree with Ms Kate, and make clear that I didn’t think that response (apologizing for her) was at all justified.  Dude, either defend her or keep your mouth shut.  The first would be stand-up, the second would be a little cowardly but not unreasonable, but apologizing?  Such a tool.

Comment #7: elmo  on  12/15  at  06:33 PM

Well, he did get sucker punched for trying to defuse the situation.

I’m not sure if they’d have sucker punched a guy defending another guy, but… I think his point is that the answer is ‘maybe not’.  They’d have been easily still focused on anger on their initial target, and not taken it all out on the one trying to talk it down.

I have no experience in bar fights, though, but I have been sucker punched.  My experience says they don’t care the gender of the target, just the messenger.

Comment #8: Crissa  on  12/15  at  06:33 PM

I’m fairly certain (as I’ve seen this before) that apologizing when being threatened with violent is a solution reached by many, regardless of gender.

If it was his guy friend, I’m sure he’d have done the same.  That I have seen, as well.

Comment #9: Crissa  on  12/15  at  06:36 PM

Maybe it was stupid of that woman to dump nachos on those guys. But something tells me that anything short of that wouldn’t have got the message across.

Those two need to find another bar.

Comment #10: Bitter Scribe  on  12/15  at  06:43 PM

Look, I found that guy’s argument damned near incoherent—is a friend of Douthat’s??— and badly written, which, unfortunately, makes it a bit of an inkblot for what people think he said.  In Amanda’s previous thread on this I had a different take on his motives:

FWIW, and all the other problems with the rather incoherent Jezebel article aside, I got the impression that the rush-to-apology from the writer had less to do with ownership / diminishment of his female friend and far more to do with saying anything to de-escalate a situation that he (rightly) thought was about to turn seriously violent.  He was dealing with three pig-ignorant sexually harassing hoodlums, complete pigs and barely human.  He said what he thought would prevent fists from flying at her and he wouldn’t be the first person to apologize to some fucking primitive as a way of avoiding a bar fight.  Whether he was right—or sufficiently pure in theory—to do so is a separate question from his motive, which I think was laudable enough: avoid violence.  (I’ve noticed, though, over the years, that the preference for considering a question within a theoretical frame goes up in direct correlation to the lengthening distance the theorist has from a violent situation.)

...

BTW, am I the only one who found it disturbing that a man who rushed to a friend’s aid, who interposed himself between her and her would-be attackers, who tried to end it nonviolently, and and who ended up in hospital for his pains was treated so cavalierly by the commenters?  Maybe I’m too goddamned Victorian but I do think that some cred should go to somebody with the stones to do that.  The commenters wanted to lecture him on ownership 101, fine, it’s a feminist blog.  But to do that alone, to just metaphorically step over his bleeding body to wag their fingers at him seemed more than a tad extreme.

I think that elmo raises an interesting point: our right if any to obligate others to do violence on our behalf.  Once she turned from words to action she put him in a no-win situation, and he certainly didn’t win either physically—he ended up in hospital—or morally, because he’s had some feminist threads talking about what a complete douche he was.

I feel this dilemma keenly because I have direct experience of it in two situations in my youth which I recall all to clearly.  In the first I found myself in a parking lot and with the patience of Job putting up with the chest-pushing efforts of some turd to get me to take a swing at him.  I found it deeply humiliating to not take him out (which would have been easy with a simple knee to the groin) but I didn’t respond.  One of the biggest reasons for that was that I was with two friends (he had four backing him up) and I felt deeply conflicted about obliging them to fight to salve my pride.  Equally worrisome was the fact that one of my companions was a hyperfit TKD blackbelt who could have—and probably would have—put all of our standing opponents in the hospital.  What right did I have to get him thrown in jail just because I was primitive enough to let some mouth breathing cretin decide for me that tonight I was going to get into a stupid fight? (As noted in the other thread, a lot of cops HATE it when you beat your attacker; it’s your job to get beaten up and theirs to arrest, themz teh roolz.)  In the second I sweet-talked a vulgar talker with two friends out of his increasing vulgarity and avoided a punch-up ... and the girl I was with was conflicted because part of her admired the skill with which I defused things but part of her was old-fashioned hurt that I hadn’t taken a swing to defend her honour.

In the end, though, taking a swing at the creep is the violence end of the old maxim about wrestling pigs: there’s no point because the pig likes it.

Comment #11: seeker6079  on  12/15  at  06:46 PM

Elmo,

I can’t help but think that you wouldn’t characterize the situation that way if it was Cohen that had dumped the nachos.  He’d have had the exact same choices because it certainly sounds like he didn’t have the muscle or skills to win a fight and he was outnumbered so his only protection would be that they wouldn’t hit him or that someone else would protect him.  That she was a woman doesn’t really change her options that much when facing three men. 

Guys that aren’t complete assholes won’t react with violence to a dumping of nachos and certaintly not extreme violence.  Sometimes people, men and women, get so frustrated and upset by assholes that they’re willing to risk getting punched.  When a guy does that he’s brave if stupid and admired but when a woman does it she’s both stupid and relying on other people.  Hmm.

Comment #12: Victoria  on  12/15  at  06:48 PM

seeker,
You’re too focused on the apology thing.  The problem isn’t (just) that he apologized for his friend.  The problem is that he blames his injuries not on the men who hit him, but on the woman for not being a punchable target.  He has more of a problem with the attitude that they can’t hit women than with their sexual harassment of his friend.

Comment #13: bananacat  on  12/15  at  06:51 PM

The guy got punched for not being able to control “his woman”.  I’ve been in this situation (although I responded verbally) and in both cases, my male companion chewed ME out afterward for standing up to the harasser.  I was shocked when the first guy told me that he was responsible for my behavior and thus, was the one in danger.  When the second guy told me the same thing a few years later, I chewed him out and told him I could take care of myself and he could kiss my ass.  I was also once in the position where some guy told my male friend to control me or else.  Apparently a woman is no more than a yappy dog whose owner had better keep it on a leash.

Comment #14: BadKitty  on  12/15  at  06:54 PM

Victoria,

That’s an interesting question, and I’m noodling it.  I would still call him an idiot for crossing the physical line first—that I’m certain of.  You’re right that guys who aren’t complete assholes won’t react to nachos with great violence, but it’s still stupid to get physical first when you’re outnumbered 3 to 1, or even 3 to 2 when one of your two is a non-martial-artist woman.

Let me ask you this:  If he had dumped the nachos, and the 3 guys had beaten them both up, would the woman be justified in being upset with Jefferson for escalating the situation?  I think she would have.

Comment #15: elmo  on  12/15  at  06:55 PM

Victoria:

While I don’t disagree with you I do note the fact that the scumbags didn’t hit her but hit her male representative goes a very long way to undermine your point and make both the writer and elmo’s.  She may have been willing to take a punch (and for all I know she could have won the fight) but when you cross that “words into action” line with semi-primitives you are making a choice not only for yourself but also for the people with you, something that I don’t think that she had the right to do.

And while that I don’t doubt that her version of events relayed through him is accurate I will point out that the possibility exists that it isn’t.  The one time that a woman hauled off and slugged me (and I do mean slugged hard enough to have little sparkles appear before my eyes and have my impact-side ear ringing) for making a vulgar remark I hadn’t actually said anything vulgar; she was drunk and had misheard something quite ordinary.  It was in public, too, in the lobby of an expensive Toronto hotel.

Comment #16: seeker6079  on  12/15  at  06:58 PM

BadKitty, that is seriously fucked up, and good for you for telling him to kiss your ass.  Where do these people come from???

Comment #17: elmo  on  12/15  at  06:59 PM

Elmo,

I don’t think she would have.  Unless she had tried to escape notice by backing up and not being involved and the guys went after her anyway and even then the fault would mostly still be the guys that beat them up.  I don’t demand my friends be as submissive as necessary to avoid potential injury to me. 

People have the right to take the actions they feel are right.  They live with the consequences. 

In a situation like this when they encounter violent assholes those consequences might involve some bruises and stitches.  But you know what?  Women survive punches all the time.  Just because they are women doesn’t mean they have no right to actions that might concievably result in violence because of the poor men with them who will be forced, forced to defend them.

Also, Cohen was apparently some distance away and so could have avoided being involved in the situation.  (I’m not saying that would be the right action but he had that choice and his choice is not the responsibility of his friend).

Also, I bet if it was a male friend of Cohen’s in this situation he would have jumped in too and not blamed his friend.  Especially if his friend was being sexually harassed by guys.  After all it’s only right to stand up to that kind of thing!

Comment #18: Victoria  on  12/15  at  07:02 PM

seeker,

In the situations you describe above, would your friends have blamed you if you hadn’t descalated the situation?

Comment #19: Victoria  on  12/15  at  07:04 PM

Victoria,

The fault is completely with the violent assholes who commit the beating, no question.  No question.  At NO point is a beating justified by a little cheese and chips in the lap.  Let me make that clear.

But at the same time, it is just stupid and wrong to escalate a verbal altercation into the physical realm.  No, I certainly don’t demand that people be “as submissive as necessary,” but I do prefer that they not be hotheaded idiots.  People most emphatically do not “have the right to take the actions they feel are right.”  They have the right to take the actions that are justified.  A physical response to a verbal insult is seldom justified.

Comment #20: elmo  on  12/15  at  07:08 PM

You’re too focused on the apology thing.  The problem isn’t (just) that he apologized for his friend.  The problem is that he blames his injuries not on the men who hit him, but on the woman for not being a punchable target.  He has more of a problem with the attitude that they can’t hit women than with their sexual harassment of his friend.

For which he’s a douche, admittedly; I wonder, though, if his attitude is similar to mine about guys like that: they’re everywhere like crotch itch and rabid raccoons and are simply not civilized or civilizable and he just takes it for granted that some dogs will bite.  (I note, though, that many of the same people who will rightly point out that such guys are barbaric pigs somehow manage to coo all over them once they’re actually caught and facing jail time andthe weeping hankies for how bad prisons are come out, but I digress to people I’ve actually known and worked with.)  I will in my defense note, though,  that the blockquoted original was in a portion of the thread where people were savaging his choice to apologize for her, so it was more in context there. 

Look, many people who don’t want to get into a fight will say anything to avoid that first punch being thrown.  And, at a tactical level alone I think he erred; it would have been smarter to just stand there and let her continue her argument.  (It’s been my own experience that the quiet, patient guys who don’t move much and don’t talk are usually the ones you should be wariest of.)  And as elmo noted she made a choice to throw something at some potentially violent asshole, involving him whether he liked it or not.  Being a guy in his situation ain’t shit compared to the constant stream of harassment and violence—cultural, threatened, actual—that women face.  There’s no argument with Amanda on that one, period, and I don’t want my argument taken as that.  I note, however, that there is a certain expectation among middle-class and rich white girls that their girlyness will stop someone from taking a swing at them when they would certainly hit a man.  It doesn’t extend to working class women, I note, who fully expect to have somebody swing at them—male, but more likely female, in bars (in private it’s another matter)—if talk goes south.

Comment #21: seeker6079  on  12/15  at  07:09 PM

I didn’t call him whiny for trying to stop a fight.  I called him whiny for believing that his getting popped in the face counts more than domestic violence, rape, etc., and also for thinking that women should simply suffer when men sexually harass them.  He tried to stop the violence…..by agreeing that she was out of line for being unhappy when sexual harassment.

Comment #22: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/15  at  07:13 PM

seeker, In the situations you describe above, would your friends have blamed you if you hadn’t descalated the situation?

An excellent question.  For the second situation I’ve already answered it: part of her instinctively did, yes, and that warred with her more rational appreciation of a deft bit of verbal jujitsu. As for the first, hard to tell.  Our discussion afterwards can be paraphrased as “yeah, probably right but if you’d've clocked the first guy we would have been okay with the fight”, but that was with the three of us intact and unbloodied.  An honest appraisal would have to admit that their views might have been considerably different if they’d have ended up in hospital or jail .

Comment #23: seeker6079  on  12/15  at  07:13 PM

Throwing food on someone is not “violence” like throwing a punch or even slapping them.  Let’s have perspective.  I don’t think it’s wise to confront harassers most of the time, when you know they might beat you down.  But “she started it” isn’t going to fly when the men were threatening her with violence, which is what sexual harassment is, especially when it’s backed up with the insinuation of violence, which this was.

Comment #24: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/15  at  07:15 PM

In a situation like this when they encounter violent assholes those consequences might involve some bruises and stitches.

Victoria, that is shockingly, horrifyingly naive.  Primitive pigs looking for fights often carry knives or other instruments of violence.  And in America they often carry guns.  What, do you like in the same small town as the Hardy Boys where the only actual violence is a sock on the jaw and a stitch or bruise or two?  Jeeeeeezus.  Read a local newspaper.  This confrontation in the restaurant is a fairly textbook example of how non-DV, non-professional (i.e. no fights over drugs or loot) homicides happen.

Comment #25: seeker6079  on  12/15  at  07:17 PM

Maybe seeker but I certainly know plenty of people who wouldn’t have blamed you and that includes me.

Also, while you’re right that many middle class white girls expect that people won’t hit them that’s also true for plenty of middle class white guys.  I know many men who’ve never been hit and never hit anyone. 

I don’t get how everyone is convinced that she dragged him into this whether or not he wanted to be involved.  No one forced him to get involved.  Just because you have people ‘with you’ in a bar or club or whatever doesn’t mean they are automatically involved in anything you do.  Now, if he hadn’t gotten involved she probably wouldn’t be friends with him anymore but so what? 

She did not step behind him to hide.  He came over to get involved.

Comment #26: Victoria  on  12/15  at  07:20 PM

There are 3 kinds of people involved in bar confrontations: the guy looking to fight, the guy who got picked on and ends up in a bad situation of to-defend-or-not, and the peacemaker.  Most people are peacemakers.  No one wants to be in a bar fight.  I don’t blame the guy for apologizing for his friend because I’ve played peacemaker for my friends (men and women) before to avoid bad situations.  You don’t think about the gender consequences of it at the time because there ARE people out there who will hit a man, woman, or child in public.

In hindsight, he was wrong to apologize for her to guys picking on her, but for those of you who haven’t been in that sort of confrontation, understand this: most people will do anything to just diffuse the situation without it coming to violence.  In that case, those 3 guys probably rough up the nacho-tosser without the intervention.  Does that mean she owes the peacemaker anything?  No, because there are other ways to diffuse the situation without apologizing.  The problem was not getting a bouncer or just grabbing the nacho-tosser and creating some space to diffuse the situation.  Actually, the problem was that there was a group of d-bags picking on people at the bar.  But that is neither here nor there.  The chivalry angle got the guy sucker punched, but the d-bags likely were looking to fight one way or the other.

Comment #27: bouj  on  12/15  at  07:21 PM

Throwing food on someone is not “violence” like throwing a punch or even slapping them.  Let’s have perspective.

True but involuntarily disingenuous.  First, it is still an assault, however picayune.  (Didn’t we canvass this when some guy pied Thomas Friedman?)  Second, in situations and with knuckle-draggers like this it serves the same function as the bell for a fight: it’s the signal that it’s okay to escalate.  And, whaddya know, it escalated.

Comment #28: seeker6079  on  12/15  at  07:22 PM

seeker, it’s not just the apology.  I could forgive him saying “anything”.  But it’s clear that he believed the apology, because he continues to hold her accountable for the choice of that man’s punch him.  Why?  Because she was out of line thinking she shouldn’t have to take sexual harassment.

What she needed to do, of course, was to alert the bouncer and have the harassers ejected.  That’s what I do when someone starts shit with me in bars.  But the tone throughout his piece is that her being harassed was only a problem because she was a problem, period.  His main addressing of the guy who punched him’s motivations was sympathetic—-he can’t hit a woman!

Comment #29: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/15  at  07:24 PM

No one forced him to get involved.

What kind of creep leaves a friend to face 3-to-1 odds alone?  Seriously.  If he hadn’t gone to her assistance he would have been lower than slime on a snake’s belly.  And, I suspect, if he had stood by when and if they started screaming at or whaling on her you would have been equally contemptuous of him as you are now, if not more so.

Comment #30: seeker6079  on  12/15  at  07:25 PM

Of course, seeker.  I maintain that one should simply have threateners ejected the second they start stuff.  I’m aware of men who cruise for fights.  I guarantee that’s what these guys were doing; if they weren’t, they would have harassed a woman without a male companion.

The point is that blaming her instead of the punch thrower is out of line.

Comment #31: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/15  at  07:26 PM

@BadKitty - ugh, so fucking true.  I’ve experienced that a few times (not being one to suffer fools in silence).  I’m getting angry just thinking about it.  The “control your bitch” rhetoric has to die.

Comment #32: Ranylt  on  12/15  at  07:27 PM

Just a clarification, folks, we’re not talking about a bar, and we certainly aren’t talking about a place with bouncers.  The writer speaks of a “late-night taco shop”, which sounds fast-foody to me.  Two or three minimum-wage teenagers grateful that they’re behind the counter are not the stuff of which rapid help is made, and sensibly so from their point of view (and mine).

Comment #33: seeker6079  on  12/15  at  07:29 PM

There are 3 kinds of people involved in bar confrontations: the guy looking to fight, the guy who got picked on and ends up in a bad situation of to-defend-or-not, and the peacemaker.  Most people are peacemakers.

In my experience, they’re often the ones who get hurt the worst.  Last time I saw a bar fight create an injury, it was the guy trying to pull the screamers apart. 

Again, there is only one thing to do.  The second someone cruising for a fight starts shit, you immediately turn heel, walk up to the staff, and have their ass thrown out.  Works beautifully, I’ve found.  People don’t like to do it, because it makes them feel weak and like tattletales. But it’s not.  What it is is refusing to play the game the guy looking for a fight is playing.

Comment #34: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/15  at  07:31 PM

Also, any bar worth going to ejects men who sexually harass women. It’s not in their interest to cultivate a sausage fest.

Comment #35: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/15  at  07:31 PM

Just a clarification, folks, we’re not talking about a bar, and we certainly aren’t talking about a place with bouncers.  The writer speaks of a “late-night taco shop”, which sounds fast-foody to me.

Fine, then you leave.  The point is yes, she wasn’t the brightest to avoid the fight.  But the fact that he refuses to believe that sexual harassment is a problem in and of itself is the issue here.  His refusal to see that it is a problem is why he’s unable to understand everything else that happened, and instead is forced to contextualize it as himself taking a hit she should have taken.

Comment #36: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/15  at  07:35 PM

“The point is that blaming her instead of the punch thrower is out of line. “

Yeah, Amanda, I think that’s fair.  More accurately, though, he blames the conditioning that makes it permissible to hit him when he didn’t dump the nachos on the creep when it isn’t permissible to hit her, which is petulant and, yes, a bit whiny; it does come across as “what are you hitting ME for, I apologized!” rather than as a criticism of the attacker.  The article does rather make one want to say, “dude, you aren’t saying it’s wrong to hit, you’re saying that it’s wrong to hit a man when you won’t hit a woman because she’s a woman”, and all the silliness that that implies.

I think he did a shitty job of addressing an interesting point: if we are going to make interpersonal violence unacceptable it has to be unacceptable for everybody, no DV, no punches in bars, no “girly out” for girls who don’t like what they hear, no nothin’.  And I will concede that the writer’s attitude isn’t that helpful in expanding the debate.

Comment #37: seeker6079  on  12/15  at  07:36 PM

“It’s not in their interest to cultivate a sausage fest. “

At this point large German men with beer in their steins look up and go “WHAT?? ARE YOU QVITE MAD??”
(Whisper whisper whisper ... metaphor explained.)
“Oooooooooooh…. Ve get it now.  Sorry.”

Comment #38: seeker6079  on  12/15  at  07:38 PM

seeker, it would him a crappy friend.  However, if I was with someone and they did something I didn’t approve of at all that resulted in a fight I wouldn’t get involved in it.  The only exception being if they were my best friend. 

If there are two friends and one of them starts spewing ugly anti-semetic eliminationist crap and the Jews he is addressing slugs him I would not blame his friend for not getting involved.  I would not think they are a creep and that’s true regardless of the genders.

In this situation yes I would disaprove of him on a personal level.  However I don’t think it is anyone’s obligation to help out someone else in a fight (unless someone is getting seriously injured/killed or raped).

Comment #39: Victoria  on  12/15  at  07:40 PM

The second someone cruising for a fight starts shit, you immediately turn heel, walk up to the staff, and have their ass thrown out
I totally agree, Amanda.  I remember the story about the guy looking to pick a fight at Alamo Drafthouse.  Really?!  Alamo?!  You got them booted and it was the right thing to do and you went about it the right way.

Comment #40: bouj  on  12/15  at  07:40 PM

This is a rare case where I think women are blinded to female privilege.

Yes, I think Cord has misplaced his anger, but by the same token, he has a right to at least some anger at his friend, because let’s face it, if he lets his female friend get beat on by three guys, nobody on this board is going to actually suggest that he was in the right. We expect men to throw themselves in the line of fire for their friends, and we actively denigrate men who choose not to. In this case, Cord stepped into a no-win situation—trying to defuse an already spiraling situation before it turned violent—and got sent to the hospital for his troubles. Should he be angriest at the guys who put him in the hospital? Without question. But does he have a right to be frustrated that a friend reacted violently to what had been up to that point a non-violent but threatening situation, putting him in a position where he was forced to get involved? Yes, absolutely. And, incidentally, I have no doubt he’d feel the same if it had been a male friend in that situation, and that he would have reacted the same, too; men are supposed to step into the line of fire for their friends, male or female. If a friend of mine of either gender was being harassed by three guys twice their size, and my friend did something stupid to escalate the situation—and I’ve been in this situation, and the friend was male—it’s your responsibility as a friend to step in and keep your friend from being beaten up. And while you do that, you think the entire time about what an idiot your friend was for forcing you into this situation. That doesn’t mean you don’t step in, and it doesn’t mean you don’t fight if you have to. But it does mean that you have a responsibility to keep your cool and avoid forcing friends into bad situations.

We teach, correctly, that you should never hit a woman. But nobody seems to want to teach that you should never hit a man. That is wrong. You should never hit anybody. Period. Again, if I were in Cord’s shoes, my primary anger would be at the morons who were harassing my friend, and who assaulted me. But would I wish that my friend had dealt with idiocy by walking away? Yes, I would. And I can’t really fault him for having those emotions.

(Incidentally and obviously, women face plenty of violent and non-violent issues that men simply do not; I am not trying to argue that women have it sooooo easy compared to men, because they do not. But there are situations in which men do have it worse than women, and the patriarchal expectation that men will fight to defend a friend’s honor is one of them.)

Comment #41: Jeff Fecke  on  12/15  at  07:43 PM

He tried to stop the violence…..by agreeing that she was out of line for being unhappy when sexual harassment.

As he tells the story, he did not support her particular manifestation of her unhappiness with sexual harassment—namely the deposition of the nachos. But by leaping into the fray from nowhere (actually, the restroom) he should have known he was offering himself up as substitute target. (“Do you want to get involved? Fine. You’re involved.”)

Now, in the patriarchy-driven stereotypes, women are loath to use physical violence in public, substituting their greater verbal skills to cut bar thugs down to size. In our modern world, after dumping nachos, she should have been prepared to subdue them using wushu, kung fu, or jiu jitsu.

Comment #42: Hector B.  on  12/15  at  07:43 PM

In my, admittedly limited, fight-witnessing experience, yes, it’s the peacemakers who get hurt bad.  As in, all participants end up in the hospital, peacemaker stays there three days.  Don’t try to stop a fight alone.

Comment #43: lonespark  on  12/15  at  07:46 PM

Victoria, there’s a world of difference between being a provocative nazi asshole on the one hand and getting into a straightforward argument in a taco joint on the other. 

Cord Whatsisname may have disagreed with the nacho dump, he may be a sexist, whiny asshole, but the point of my point on the other thread remains: take him to task for that, yes, fair enough, but at least give the guy some cred for standing up to help his friend despite the risk.  Like I jokingly said, in some respects I’m Victorian but I do subscribe to certain concepts of duty and honour bound up with that culture:  somebody who steps forth to help you and bleeds for it deserves some fucking acknowledgment for their effort and not just any merited tsk-tsk-ing for his limitations.

Actually, I just flashed onto a hitherto forgotten incident from my teens because the reaction to this now reminds me of it.  I got a call from a girlfriend who sounded badly, badly upset.  (She was pissed at me for something I can’t recall what, but I didn’t know that at the time.)  I rushed out of my parents’ house to my car to race around to see if I could help and, in a Keystone-ish stupid meeting of stupidity and bad luck got whaled in the head with our screen door handle.  I showed up on her doorstep bleeding steadily if not profusely from my temple, raced up the stairs ... to have her ignore the wound completely and take me to task for whatever it was.  Comic, and not dangerous, but his situation was and he was seriously hurt.  The writer may have been a sexist douche but at least he stood with and bled for his friend.  Doesn’t that count for at least a fucking nod any more?  At all?

Comment #44: seeker6079  on  12/15  at  07:52 PM

mmm, but according to you and jeff he jumped in only because there is such strong patriarchal pressure to defend a friend that he had no choice? 

I’m saying he did have a choice and made the right choice but he didn’t take responsibility for that choice and is inappropriately angry at his friend.  So sure yes jumping in was the right thing to do but if I was the woman in that situation and I had the choice between the being blamed situation and him hiding and me getting punched situation I would hands down choose him hiding.  (Again assuming no permanent injury to me nor rape).  So in that case is it really my fault he choose to be a hero and to blame me for it?

Comment #45: Victoria  on  12/15  at  07:58 PM

What Jeff Fecke said.  I’d only add that any anti-violence message has to be universal.  There is a privilege bubble there—a small one—and it has to be deflated.  I’ve never, ever hit a woman.  But in forty-four years I’ve been slugged twice—three times if you count my acquaintance in the hotel lobby chairs—under the old rule that girls can hit you to get a message across.  I don’t care for it, personally and will be glad to see it go.

Comment #46: seeker6079  on  12/15  at  07:58 PM

Seeker, while I agree with your last comment I resent the implication that all or even most or even many (let alone feminist) women thing that it’s okay for girls to hit you to get a message across.  Did you miss the way feminists reminded people that dv, even as revenge for cheating, is not okay?  And should be prosecuted?

Comment #47: Victoria  on  12/15  at  08:02 PM

Yes, Victoria, he did indeed have a choice: help, or be a shitty friend and a contemptible coward who should be shunned.  It’s just not a real choice.

Comment #48: seeker6079  on  12/15  at  08:03 PM

But apparently help and be a great friend or help and be an asshole and a mean friend was a real choice?  Because he choose number 2.

Comment #49: Victoria  on  12/15  at  08:04 PM

Victoria @ 47: Not fair and not accurate.
Did I mention feminism?  No.  There is no implication except in your desire to make a point.  One of the women was a real traditionalist old schooler and the other was a devoted feminist who ironically did anti-violence work, so no rule is stated or implied?

Comment #50: seeker6079  on  12/15  at  08:08 PM

I’m with Victoria.  When you choose to stand up for your friend and risk getting your ass kicked with them, you forfeit the right to bitch at them and blame them for why they were there.  He could have called the cops instead of trying to “nobly” take a punch for someone who hadn’t asked him to.

Comment #51: Gavel Down  on  12/15  at  08:09 PM

I’m with elmo here on the stupidity of throwing the nachos, but you have to realize that it’s very close to an acceptable cliched reaction for women.

Man says something rude; man gets a drink thrown in his face.  How many times have we seen the TV/movie trope?  It’s what a lady is supposed to do to a cad.  Throwing nachos is not that different and might stain even less than a glass of Cab.

It’s escalating the situation, though, but since she didn’t start the situation, confronting it may have been a perfectly rational response.  And the normal, cliched response to being hit in the face with a drink, is to wipe the drink off your face while the woman stalks away.

I note, however, that there is a certain expectation among middle-class and rich white girls that their girlyness will stop someone from taking a swing at them when they would certainly hit a man.

It’s privilege.  I remember in high school walking out of a movie theatre with friends and bitching at the smokers in the doorway.  My boyfriend and his friend grabbed me and hissed “Caren, they’re not going to hit YOU, they’re going to hit US.”

As a pretty little white girl, comfortably middle class and mostly private school educated, I lived in an environment where NOONE was ever going to take a swing at me.  Boys grow up knowing that they might have to take a punch from a bully, though school policies are changing all the time.  But it’s still out there—again reinforced inthe movies/TV—that you need to fight bullies if you’re a boy.  That night was a bit of a wake up call—there are assholes out there who will hit people if you just say something.

Now, the privilege of Being Not Hit-able comes with a high cost of not being allowed full agency, so it’s quite easy to argue that it’s not much of a privilege at all…

Comment #52: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  12/15  at  08:09 PM

Amanda, if he thinks that what happened to him is way worse than domestic violence, then why does he actually write, “Yes, domestic violence against women is a serious issue, and much worse than a barroom brawl between two drunken males.” (emphasis added)

And regarding the apology, two sentences before it he writes: “I exited just in time to see her lifting her tray of nachos and dumping it all over one of the guy’s heads.”  In other words, at the time he apologized, he had no idea what had happened before she dumped the nachos, yet people are reading into it that he apologized because he thought she should sit there and take harassment.

Comment #53: neff  on  12/15  at  08:12 PM

Victoria, you remind me of some cops that I’ve seen when dealing with self-defence cases.  They are oh-so-sure of what should have been done and oh-so-certain about how it could have and should have been handled.  They treat the incident as if the people had the time and ability to handle things as calmly as the seating arrangements for a society do and the situation was as calm as a meditation circle.  (They don’t, naturally, ever, ever, ever want this idyllic standard applied to them, mind, only the surly citizenry.)

The writer’s friend was facing off against three primitive morons.  Food had been thrown, people were yelling, his friend was screaming obscenities and he didn’t handle it to your ideological and Miss Manners satisfaction.  In a situation that could have and did turn brutally violent he wasn’t the perfect feminist and/or Ghandiesque man and didn’t perform to your satisfaction.  Boo.  Fucking.  Hoo. 

We can and should take him to task for his stupid article and attitudes, and have been doing so.  But, sorry, your attitude reeks of somebody who’s never been near a dangerous situation in their lives and your my-moral-cutlery-all-in-a-perfect-row superiority and certainty is really starting to grate on me.  Real life is loud, messy and sometimes confusingly rapid and people do make mistakes.  I’m oh so very sorry that a man who, whatever his other stupidities, was willing to stand by a threatened friend doesn’t meet with your standards of perfection.  It’s just that you can measure how sorry with a micrometer.

I am certain of one thing, though.  If it had been me and you and I ended up bleeding on the floor the last thing I would have heard wouldn’t have been the sirens but you taking me to task for how I had not handled that to your satisfaction, with explanatory footnotes.

Comment #54: seeker6079  on  12/15  at  08:19 PM

Boys grow up knowing that they might have to take a punch from a bully, though school policies are changing all the time.  But it’s still out there—again reinforced inthe movies/TV—that you need to fight bullies if you’re a boy.

Sadly, Caren, you’re correct all through.  One thing that has changed is that the now common zero-tolerance policies mandate suspension both of the bully attacker and the weaker child trying to defend himself.  Yay progress.  Yay.

Comment #55: seeker6079  on  12/15  at  08:22 PM

Seeker, I hope you’re no longer with the girl who wanted you to be jerk.

Also, I foresee the small bubble of privilege (some) women have regarding being non-hit-able bursting long before they are granted agency. 

That’s how it works.  Feminism frees men first.  The message that NO ONE should be hit will take longer to set in than the message that it’s okay to hit women b/c they’re no better than men.

Comment #56: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  12/15  at  08:23 PM

Whoa, I don’t know where that came from let alone how to respond.

Not sure what his post fight/hospital opinions and decisions to blame people (which is mostly what I and others are criticising) have to do with “in the heat” mistakes.

Comment #57: Victoria  on  12/15  at  08:29 PM

Gavel Down: Victoria isn’t just saying that he forfeited his right to complain.  She’s saying that he was wrong across the board and could have and perhaps should have just strolled away to leave her to her fate because, you know, that’s a choice.  (So’s not calling 9-1-1 when you see a fire in a neighbour’s house, but it’s still a slimy choice.) 

And, if he did make a choice he should have handled it to her perfectionist satisfaction.  Maybe I’m bristling a bit and being touchy (maybe?  ha!)  but it does touch on a raw nerve; I’ve been attacked, I’ve been in a few situations where violence was imminent but avoided, I’ve dealt with the aftermath of sudden violence, I’ve known frightened law-abiding people wondering why they’d been charged by the police for taking a swing at some hoodlum who attacked them and, dammit Victoria’s sort of know-it-all certainty does push my buttons ...  and it shows.

Comment #58: seeker6079  on  12/15  at  08:31 PM

... if I was the woman in that situation and I had the choice between the being blamed situation and him hiding and me getting punched situation I would hands down choose him hiding.  (Again assuming no permanent injury to me nor rape).

How do you or a friend get to assume that before the fact?

Comment #59: RickMassimo  on  12/15  at  08:38 PM

I am not getting the same thing out of that article that the OP does.  To me the key sentence is this:But why is it unimaginably worse for an asshole to haul off and hit Snooki than for an asshole to haul off and hit a man Snooki’s size, for no reason whatsoever? Seems like a reasonable and vaguely interesting question to me.  My answer is that it isn’t but that’s obviously not MTV’s answer.

I don’t see Jefferson as blaming his companion.  He apologized, but that’s not blame - it’s an attempt to defuse the situation, and there’s no reason to believe it was sincere.  The assholes weren’t owed an apology, but the alternatives offered so far are either misreading the situation (most taco places don’t have bouncers) or require him to abandon his companion in a situation that was escalating towards violence.  Attempting to defuse the situation seems to me a fairly reasonable thing to do, and given the type of guys he was dealing with some sort of submission display was pretty much the only hope.

Comment #60: togolosh  on  12/15  at  08:39 PM

RickMassimo, permanent injury is not only incredibly rare in these kind of bar brawls but generally (not always but generally) takes time when there are no weapons.  So if someone throws a punch it’s generally safe to assume no one is going to wind up dead, if someone is beating and beating on someone who is down you should worry. 

I mean are you really saying Cohen was likely to have been permanently injured?  People hit each other all the time in bars and various joint, they don’t cripple each other often. 

seeker, I still don’t know what you’re talking about.  I’m not blaming him for anything he did “in the heat”, if anything he’s blaming his friend for what she did “in the heat”.  Okay, yes I would rather he hadn’t apologized “for her” to the assholes but that’s not really my issue with him.

Comment #61: Victoria  on  12/15  at  08:43 PM

Caren:
Ages ago, in my youth, and yes, no longer together. To her insightful credit her keen—and superior to mine—mind was afterwards quite aware of her reaction and analyzed it.  (Didn’t change her conduct much, mind, she still moved smoothly from traditional demands to modern demands and back again based on what suited her at any given time, but she at least understood it! wink )

I foresee the small bubble of privilege (some) women have regarding being non-hit-able bursting long before they are granted agency. ... The message that NO ONE should be hit will take longer to set in than the message that it’s okay to hit women b/c they’re no better than men.

I wish you were wrong.  You’re not, nor even close to wrong, dammit. 

An equally problematic reality is that feminism is an intellectually and societally advanced concept that’s hard to grasp and waaaay harder to implement.  And even as the civilized folks get it the primitives down the food chain will still feel comfortable throwing a punch over thinking or talking, as the schoolteacher—it’s not a class thing, it’s a pig thing—in the video clearly shows. 

It’s one of the reasons, I think, that I’m so impatient with Victoria.  She’s got this notion (common among sane, normal, usually sheltered people who aren’t overly familiar with common violence, the grotty little stuff that isn’t interesting enough to make TV shows or news or have movies made about it) that things move along smoothly, they escalate almost mathematically and can be de-escalated if handled correctly, reasonably, right.  Sometimes true, but often not with the primitives.  The don’t see or emotionally experience curves up and down with reason along one bar and feelings along the other, they’re not rational adjustment people.  They deal with lines, with sudden changes to instant action and violence, the sucker punch, the kick to the groin, the knife coming out, frequently out of what seems like nowhere to normal people.  Stroll down to the cells of any cop shop in any urban centre in any city on a Friday night and read the reports.  Listen to the statements of fact in assignment court and the like.

They leave behind them people like the crying young woman I saw sitting on a bar curb years ago in Toronto, her hand to her bleeding nose, the EMT helping with the gauze, the cop standing by writing her statement down in her notebook ...

“But I’m telling you, I don’t fucking know why he punched me, he just did, I didn’t say anything wrong….!”

Comment #62: seeker6079  on  12/15  at  08:51 PM

RickMassimo, permanent injury is not only incredibly rare in these kind of bar brawls ...

It’s rare, but it’s pretty fucking awful when it happens.

... but generally (not always but generally) takes time when there are no weapons.

And you don’t know that there aren’t any.

So if someone throws a punch it’s generally safe to assume no one is going to wind up dead ...

1) It’s also generally safe not to lock your door at night, because how often, really, does someone try to break into your house?

2) It’s also generally safe to assume no one is going to wind up dead or permanently injured EXACTLY BECAUSE one or more people will step in to defuse the situation.

...if someone is beating and beating on someone who is down you should worry.

If someone is beating and beating on someone who is down, permanent or at least hospital-worthy injury has already occurred.

Comment #63: RickMassimo  on  12/15  at  08:55 PM

Victoria, it’s my read on the totality of your statements, not on any specific line.  Others may disagree and, in fairness, I have candidly admitted that you may have pushed a button.

Comment #64: seeker6079  on  12/15  at  08:57 PM

rickmassimo,

I’m not following, what are you saying as regarding this situation?  That anytime it looks like someone is about to throw a punch the friend who is around should assume things are going to turn deadly and is thus obligated to defend their friend even though a friend’s involvement is no particular gaurantee that things will be less violent? 

In this particular case, since everyone says men don’t hit women, isn’t more likely that Cohen’s involvement lead to the violence? 

Are you also saying there is not time between the first punch and the deadly stuff for a friend or bystander to go, whoa, this is getting out of hand and jump in/call the cops? 

I’m just not sure what you point is?

Is that you just object to my statement that I’d prefer a friend that would blame me otherwise not come to my help unless it was going to lead to my serious injury (stitches aren’t serious)?  Because that’s my preference yes but since it is in fact impossible to predict when things will turn serious/deadly and because the chances of them turning serious/deadly are small the way I would translate that preference into real life is for my friend who would blame me to not get involved.  (I don’t think I actually have such friends but whatever).

Comment #65: Victoria  on  12/15  at  09:02 PM

What RickMassimo said at 63.

Victoria, a punch to the face isn’t just a punch to the face.  It’s shaking the brain around in its casing, and, if the victim goes down it’s also whatever he hits at great speed on the way to the floor, or something hard on the floor itself, either of which can be equivalent to being hit with a heavy weapon with a dull edge.  It is, you’ll note, exactly what happened to the writer.  Things like this can produce death, serious brain damage or, at the “low” end of the scale” memory problems.  That, of course, leaves aside the psychological scars of an attack in a public place. 

It makes me uncomfortable, truth be told.  It seems to minimize both the attack on the writer and the seriousness of such attacks generally.  I’m sorry, but offhand comments like “permanent injury is not only incredibly rare in these kind of bar brawls ” or “it’s generally safe to assume no one is going to wind up dead” positively reek of the privilege of somebody who does not now nor ever had to worry about slugged and that’s a damned dangerous place from which to make law, or policy ... or assumptions.

Comment #66: seeker6079  on  12/15  at  09:04 PM

RickMassimo, permanent injury is not only incredibly rare in these kind of bar brawls but generally (not always but generally) takes time when there are no weapons.  So if someone throws a punch it’s generally safe to assume no one is going to wind up dead….

Let’s try this on for size: Permanent injury is not only incredibly rare in cases of rape, but generally (not always but generally) takes time when there are no weapons. So if someone is raped, it’s generally safe to assume no one is going to wind up dead….

Yeah, it’s just as nonsensical that way.

Do you see why I said there’s some blindness to privilege here? It’s okay for a guy to get hit, because, hey, he probably won’t die, unless the guy who hits him is armed, which in America is only a 30-40% likelihood. So what are guys complaining about?

The fact is that this is one situation—one—where men are pressured into defensive violence, a situation which women do not have to deal with in the same way. Arguing that it’s not a big deal because the damage usually isn’t permanent is as ludicrous as arguing rape isn’t a big deal because nobody dies…usually.

I would never advance that argument, because I believe that pain and suffering exist at lower levels than life-threatening. I loathe rape because rape can cause psychological harm to women even when it causes no physical harm, and emotional scars are real.

Is being assaulted in a bar as bad as rape? No. But it’s pretty bad, in the grand scheme of things. And I’m not going to suggest for a second that bar fights are minor, trivial events because hey, usually, people don’t die.

Comment #67: Jeff Fecke  on  12/15  at  09:07 PM

It might reek of privilege but I’m pretty sure it’s factually true. 

If you can point me to statistics that say otherwise I’m all ears.  If it was otherwise a lot of people that I know personally (as well as people in this thread) would be seriously injured or dead.

I don’t mean to demphasize the harm of concussions etc. I think they can be very harmful (which doesn’t stop people from playing football or high schools from promoting it).  While punches and brawls can produce all the things you list yes it is unlikely and I don’t think it’s minimizing to say so.

Comment #68: Victoria  on  12/15  at  09:10 PM

“Rape does not destroy you forever. It’s like getting beaten up. Men get beat up all the time.”

-Camille Paglia

Comment #69: MattMinus  on  12/15  at  09:12 PM

offhand comments like “permanent injury is not only incredibly rare in these kind of bar brawls “ or “it’s generally safe to assume no one is going to wind up dead” positively reek of the privilege of somebody who does not now nor ever had to worry about slugged and that’s a damned dangerous place from which to make law, or policy

This points up the common problem of trying to predict the behavior of someone who has broken social norms in front of us. Where will he draw the line? Anywhere? Will he draw the line at punching? Will he draw the line at dropkicking? Will he draw the line at stomping? Will he go home and come back? With two thug buddies? With a knife? With a gun?

Comment #70: Hector B.  on  12/15  at  09:14 PM

Jeff,

Rape usually doesn’t result in death.  That’s also factually true and important.  It affects my willingness to risk rape (i.e. to take certain actions that put me in severe danger to be raped). 

That bar fights don’t usually result in serious injury or death also probably affects people’s willingness to risk/start/take part in bar fights. 

I don’t know how either of those are minimizing.

Though I do think if you’re comparing being in a bar fight to being raped you are minimizing rape, because I and 99% of the population would choose a bar fight.

Comment #71: Victoria  on  12/15  at  09:15 PM

Um, who is he to apologize on her behalf?  Her owner?  What a douche.

Seriously? What is wrong with you people? It’s called de-escalation and it’s an attempt to prevent violence.  I thought the enlightened were supposed to be against violence.

Comment #72: pablo  on  12/15  at  09:16 PM

Is that you just object to my statement that I’d prefer a friend that would blame me otherwise not come to my help unless it was going to lead to my serious injury (stitches aren’t serious)?

Yes yes yes a thousand times yes. Because you don’t know when it’s going to lead to serious injury, and neither do your friends.

And stitches are not in and of themselves serious, but if you’ve been punched hard enough to require stitches then the stitch-requiring cut is hardly the only injury you’ve suffered, because if you’ve been punched hard enough to require stitches you’ve been punched pretty bloody hard.

Because that’s my preference yes but since it is in fact impossible to predict when things will turn serious/deadly and because the chances of them turning serious/deadly are small the way I would translate that preference into real life is for my friend who would blame me to not get involved.  (I don’t think I actually have such friends but whatever).

Whatever indeed. Unless you have explicit conversations with your friends about exactly this topic before going out, the whole thing is academic anyway.

Comment #73: RickMassimo  on  12/15  at  09:18 PM

Nobody seemed to try to guess what would have happened had she not dumped the nachos on the assholes. 

I think her friend would have come out of the restroom, and the assholes would be there waiting for her to complain to him so he’d have to confront them.  Then they could start a fight.

Because that’s what they wanted. 

So he didn’t get pulled into it by her, really.  She was an object to them—that should be obvious from their harassment, right?

This strongly reminds me of a sequence in “Gone With The Wind” where Scarlett drives through shantytown after dark, when she’s not supposed to.  She’s pursued by a couple of bad guys, one white, one black, and almost gets caught and hurt.  She tells her folk, and serious looks are exchanged, to her confusion.  The menz have to then put on their Klan robes and open a can of whupass on the bad guys who did this, even though if they get caught, they will be hanged.  Scarlett doesn’t really get what’s going on.  Ashley gets hurt, another guy gets killed.  They escape hanging through a ruse.  Everyone hates Scarlett, of course, for being so dumb as to bring this upon everyone and require this help from the menz.

Basically, yes, these guys think they have to defend women, so it had better be a really good reason.  The woman does not get to decide whether to call them in to help or not; they are constrained to act only as their masters and protectors would have them act.  Don’t shame them.  Don’t embarrass them.  Don’t get them into anything over something as trivial as sexual harassment.

Oh, and seeker6079, not a flame, maybe some help:  Defuse.  Gandhi.

Comment #74: oldfeminist  on  12/15  at  09:19 PM

That anytime it looks like someone is about to throw a punch the friend who is around should assume things are going to turn deadly…

No, but no-one here has said that.  They’ve said that where things turn ugly or potentially violent then one should assume that they might turn violent.  That’s a very different thing than your phrasing smelling of straw.

Are you also saying there is not time between the first punch and the deadly stuff for a friend or bystander to go, whoa, this is getting out of hand and jump in/call the cops?

I don’t know if Rick is saying that but I sure as hell am, or at least very possible that such time would not be available.  As I noted before I think you’re pretty goddammed naive; you have this notion of violence as occurring in this measured, paced way which allows for the correct response to be perceived and implemented.  Violence is very often very sudden, very rapid and very quickly over.  It’s not there THEN IT’S THERE! BANG! then it’s gone.  It doesn’t measure itself out in set increments or have time-outs like football and it certainly doesn’t measure itself out in the tidy way that you believe it does.  Bar fights are not game theory, Victoria.

In this particular case, since everyone says men don’t hit women, isn’t more likely that Cohen’s involvement lead to the violence?

Ah.  This is what I was referring to when I was speaking of the demand for perfection.  In your little world the writer was able to instantly have that data to hand in his mind, he had time to rationally ponder and weigh it it, he had the time to apply that knowledge to the situation at hand and draw the reasoned conclusion that his intervention might escalate matters, and the cool detachment to stand calmly away from the screaming, obscenity-laden and escalating fray and stay calmly there.  You do know that we’re dealing with humans, right, not Vulcans?

And, note, please, your absolute certainty rooted only in your assumptions that this would have worked.  There’s no data for that other than your belief that this is so.  It is equally possible that the nacho-clad harasser might have done what one of my colleague’s slimier clients did in a similar situation: he placed his palm around the back of his brother’s girlfriend’s head and pulled again toward him, bring her head to his fist as he repeatedly smashed her in the face.  (Sorry.  Forgot.  In your world jabs don’t do much damage, do they?)

Now, I don’t know that that would have happened if he had stayed out.  But at least I realize that it might have been a better plan and what you posit might be entirely right and things would have calmed down.  You, however, are just gliding along on the assumption that if he had handled it more to your satisfaction then that certainly would have worked.

Comment #75: seeker6079  on  12/15  at  09:26 PM

The fact is that this is one situation—one—where men are pressured into defensive violence, a situation which women do not have to deal with in the same way.

Just to make this clear, b/c the statement is true, what is pressuring the men in these situations is the Patriarchy.

That may be why this article is so annoying to many: Patriarchy hurts everyone, but this is a case where it literally hurts men more than women.  It’s not the woman’s fault for throwing nachos instead of being submissive.  It’s the asshole who threw the punch’s fault, but it all happened because of the patriarchy. And when Cord whines about his friend being the problem, he’s using the same patriarchy that hurt him to put her in her place.

Comment #76: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  12/15  at  09:26 PM

Nobody seemed to try to guess what would have happened had she not dumped the nachos on the assholes. 

I think her friend would have come out of the restroom, and the assholes would be there waiting for her to complain to him so he’d have to confront them.  Then they could start a fight.

Well, that’s a guess. But there are lots of other guesses.


As for the Gone With the Wind story, there’s a big difference: Scarlett was home safe when the menz decided they “had” to act. Their act was pure patriarchy. Jefferson was trying to get his friend out of an ongoing bad scene.

(I don’t think anyone is blaming Jefferson for apologizing in the heat of the moment. You do what you have to to get out of there without anyone getting hurt. He is being whiny by stretching it into This Proves That Menz Have It Really Hard, though; but we’ve departed from that strict topic a while back.)

Comment #77: RickMassimo  on  12/15  at  09:30 PM

The fact is that this is one situation—one—where men are pressured into defensive violence, a situation which women do not have to deal with in the same way.

Huh? 

If women don’t back down, they can be violently assaulted, too. 

It’s made extra-personal-special by having it happen to them in a sexual manner, so they can be called slut and hate sex forever.

Comment #78: oldfeminist  on  12/15  at  09:31 PM

By the way, Victoria, why do you keep getting the guy’s name wrong?  It’s not Cohen, it’s Cord.  Is it because what happened to him is so damned unimportant that you can’t even be arsed to read the post or click the link?

oldfeminist said this:

I think her friend would have come out of the restroom, and the assholes would be there waiting for her to complain to him so he’d have to confront them.  Then they could start a fight.  Because that’s what they wanted. So he didn’t get pulled into it by her, really.  She was an object to them—that should be obvious from their harassment, right?

oldfeminist is very probably right.  In fact, that whole post at 74 is probably right.

Comment #79: seeker6079  on  12/15  at  09:34 PM

Victoria ...

In this particular case, since everyone says men don’t hit women, isn’t more likely that Cohen’s involvement lead to the violence?

... meet oldfeminist:

If women don’t back down, they can be violently assaulted, too.

P.S.: This entire thread started with a clip of a man hitting a woman in a bar.

Comment #80: RickMassimo  on  12/15  at  09:35 PM

Caren @ #76, QFT.

Comment #81: seeker6079  on  12/15  at  09:36 PM

I have no problem with the writer’s actions at the time, as I assume the apology was an attempt at defusing the situation, and in service to such a goal I’d say (or tolerate being said) just about anything. I have a big problem with the writer’s assumption that the aggressor was hitting him because he wasn’t a woman - that the violence was being displaced from the woman onto him. And I really don’t know where he gets that from, especially since he specifically says that the three men were squaring up to his female friend - the implication being that they were going to hurt her.

He seems to be blaming the fact that he got hit on the societal ideal that men shouldn’t hit women. But men hit women all the time. It’s men who are privileged to believe that women are somehow immune from violence - which gives them cover to believe that women are treated well and ignore all the evidence of gendered violence. Given the fact that his friend was in tears, I doubt she thought she was immune. Which is why women are very inclined to either disingage from or ignore threatening behavior (at least in my experience). 

The belief that men shouldn’t hit women is grounded solidly in the idea that men own and therefore must offer at least a show of protecting women, and thus is not a female privilege. In situations where men feel the need to step in to defend their female companion the belief acts as a goad to action, and thus as a “patriarchy hurts men too.”

Comment #82: rivki  on  12/15  at  09:36 PM

RickMassimo @ #80, QFT.

Comment #83: seeker6079  on  12/15  at  09:37 PM

Ashley gets hurt, another guy gets killed.

“Another guy” is her husband.

Comment #84: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  12/15  at  09:42 PM

I’m going to third/fourth/fifth the idea that violence is a bad thing no matter what form it takes and who the victim is.  Obviously, there are different degrees, but violence (especially random violence) can really fuck you up.  It can make you feel helpless and vulnerable, even if the physical damage isn’t that bad.  What concerns me is the fact that men are more likely to be the victims of violence AND the fact that men are prevented in many ways from seeking the help they need to deal with the after effects.  It’s not surprising to me that there’s such a cycle of violence (victims becoming perpetrators, creating more victims), when our society refuses to help and support the majority of violent crime victims.

Comment #85: keshmeshi  on  12/15  at  09:43 PM

Seeker?

Quantum Field Theory?

Comment #86: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  12/15  at  09:43 PM

C’mon, Caren.  Whats-his-name wasn’t important to Scarlett, why should he be important to us? smile

Comment #87: seeker6079  on  12/15  at  09:44 PM

By the way, one thing I DO blame all of you for is that fact that I am NOT going to be able to get through this night without having some nachos.

Comment #88: RickMassimo  on  12/15  at  09:45 PM

Yeesh, this is getting to be a habit today: keshmeshi @ 85, QFT.

Caren @ 87: I wish I was scientifilicious enough to get that joke.  (Hangs head.)

Comment #89: seeker6079  on  12/15  at  09:46 PM

FUCK!
RickMassimo @ #88, QFT.
FUCKETY HUNGRY, STOMACH-GROWLING FUCKETY FUCK!!!

Comment #90: seeker6079  on  12/15  at  09:48 PM

What’s not clear from Cord’s article is whether the thugs knew he was with the woman, as oldfeminist assumes they do, or if they assumed the woman was there by herself. As the story unfolds, he has just come from the restroom.

If they knew he was with her, oldfeminist is correct, and provoking her was their way of getting to fight him, under the rules of the patriarchy. If not, he seems to them to be a chivalrous busybody, as I thought, well deserving of a punch to the head.

Comment #91: Hector B.  on  12/15  at  09:49 PM

Hold your head high, Seeker, I was clueless to the “QFT”.  Teh Google has usefullness.

Comment #92: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  12/15  at  09:51 PM

Seems to me Cord’s biggest mistake was turning his back on the thugs to admonish his friend.  Dumb move.  Never turn your back on the enemy.  I bet he’s learned that lesson.  (That one’s on TV all the time too.)

Second biggest would be blaming his friend for his getting sucker-punched.  He forfeited that right when he decided to intervene.  After that, it’s all on him to manage the situation.  (Which he did poorly.)  He could have just stood quietly next to her at the ready rather than barging in trying to be a hero.

But I don’t see him blaming his friend for anything.  I see you extrapolating that from his stated assumption that the thug wouldn’t have hit Cord if Cord hadn’t intervened.  That’s an unwarranted extrapolation, and orthogonal to the point Cord was trying to make about violence.  Cord intervened, and got hit.  His friend might not have, despite the fact that she had dumped nachos and been verbally abusive (with all the just cause in the world, not denying that).  His point is that in our culture, violence against men is intrinsically more acceptable than violence against women.  I think he’s right about that.

What he learned was that when it comes to the patriarchy, sexist men will enforce the rules not just on women, but on other men who seem insufficiently committed to the art of oppressing women.

That seems to be a pretty nuanced thought-process to ascribe to “a table of drunk jackasses in glittery t-shirts.”  Do you think the sucker-puncher really took the time to think, “this guy’s a pussy who isn’t telling his friend to shut up” (which Cord actually was apparently in the process of doing) “forcefully enough for me, so I’m going to sucker-punch him to teach him that he needs to properly oppress women;” or is it more likely the thug thought process was more like “I want to hit someone, and here’s this douche in front of me telling me what to do?”  I mean, if the thug really wanted to oppress women and/or slug the nacho-dumping friend, why not just go around Cord and try to slug the friend?  Or why not go on to slug the friend after cold-cocking Cord and getting him out of the way?  (Which also apparently didn’t happen, or else Cord forgot to tell us.)  What was to stop the friend getting slugged at that point, if the goal was oppression of women?

Cord assumes the thug was thinking “I can’t hit a woman,” which may be true, we don’t know since the thug is not available for comment on his state of mind.  But even assuming that’s really what he was thinking, is that so bad?  At least there’s someone he won’t hit…

I’m basically with seeker though.  Cord’s heart was in the right place, even if the execution was lacking.

And like all chivalry, it’s a matter of giving women a few showy, special rights (that can be rescinded at the drop of a hat in many cases) in order to justify denying us equality.  I’ve unfortunately dealt with a lot of men who pride themselves on never hitting women, even though they actually treat women like crap.

Anecdata; those men were assholes.  Chivalry doesn’t have to be about throwing women a few bones of effortless courtesy to smooth the feathers ruffled by oppression.  It can also be about compassion and respect.  Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

If your sole point is that it’s patriarchy that made the drunks feel entitled to harass and “square off” against a woman in the first place, I think you’re on solid ground.  (And you alluded to that.)  But in my opinion you haven’t built a strong enough case for also lumping chivalry in with anti-feminist thinking.

Comment #93: liberalrob  on  12/15  at  09:58 PM

76”...And when Cord whines about his friend being the problem…”

I’m just not seeing this.  The problem in the story related is obviously the assholes. Jefferson doesn’t blame his friend.

Comment #94: togolosh  on  12/15  at  10:01 PM

BTW: there were 59 comments when I started writing comment #93.  Please don’t shoot the messenger for what I missed reading in between.

Comment #95: liberalrob  on  12/15  at  10:02 PM

And, as we see here, it all too often gives men a “get out of jail free” card to be pigs in every other way, but convince themselves they’re good guys because they wouldn’t close fisted punch a woman in the face.

SNIP

I’ve unfortunately dealt with a lot of men who pride themselves on never hitting women, even though they actually treat women like crap.

This, times a million.

I’ve seen the exact same sort of thinking played out by racists who try to deny their own racism.  I know this is about misogyny, but the two types of opression are very closely linked.

I have known racists who would never, ever use the word “nigger” in any situation, and have even seen one of these people admonish a teenaged son for using the word at the dinner table.  In their minds, the fact that they reject the overt use of the word “nigger” means that they are therefore in no way, shape, or form racists.  They believe that if you don’t use the word “nigger” as a racial epithet, you can’t possibly be a racist.  Nope, nosiree.

That they support racist politicians, racist social policies, and hold racist views in zillions of other ways is completely irrelevant in their minds, because hey, so long as they agree that it’s bad to say the word “nigger”, they can’t possibly be actual racists.  Amirite?

Comment #96: DTG in STL  on  12/15  at  10:02 PM

It is so wrong that my only coherent thought on this post is “mmmm, nachos…”

I actually have quite a few very intelligent opinions, which I might have shared if I had not spent the afternoon f5-ing the stupid electoral politics thread.  D’oh.

Comment #97: The Opoponax  on  12/15  at  10:07 PM

That seems to be a pretty nuanced thought-process to ascribe to “a table of drunk jackasses in glittery t-shirts.” Do you think the sucker-puncher really took the time to think,

Nope.  They don’t have to think.  The patriarchy did that for them.

That is what we mean when we say things like “rape culture”.  The idea that they could make sexually suggestive statements to a woman they didn’t know was a given to them.  They never thought about what she would think b/c they didn’t care, b/c they were just acting on privilege.  When she reacted hostilly and her friend stepped in, they beat him up for violating their preconceived notions of how women should behave.

Preconceived.  As in already done thinking about that.

Comment #98: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  12/15  at  10:10 PM

Correction, I’ve never said that the woman would not have been hit if Cord had not interfered.  I said that given that several commentators had assured me girls are off limits in situations like this if this is true then without Cord there would not have been violence.  That’s not my view but it is the natural conclusion of “women don’t risk being hit in these situations they risk their male friend’s being hit”.  I think the woman was running a risk but that she’s entitled to run that risk.

I also never said any stuff about it being possible for the situation to be resolved peacefully and perfectly if only Cord had done the right thing.  But people seem happy to make stuff up about what I think and say based on their “impression” of me.

Comment #99: Victoria  on  12/15  at  10:12 PM

Or maybe they were mad because they had nacho cheese on their heads.

Comment #100: MattMinus  on  12/15  at  10:14 PM

I mean, if the thug really wanted to oppress women and/or slug the nacho-dumping friend, why not just go around Cord and try to slug the friend?

I think the idea is that the ‘thugs’ are upholding an important aspect of the patriachal social contract, not so much that these are their literal goals in the situation, in a conscious way.

Similar to the way that men will walk up to women on the street and say, “What, you can’t smile for me, baby?”  I’m sure that the men who do this don’t think, “Oooh, that woman doesn’t look sufficiently subservient.  I’ll put her in her place in classic monkey fashion!”  Frankly, I’m not sure what goes through their heads (any more than I know what goes through the head of someone who throws a punch in a bar).  But when I assert that they’re participating in a patriarchal system that encourages men to publicly shame women through dominance, I don’t mean that they consciously have that running in their inner monologue.

Comment #101: The Opoponax  on  12/15  at  10:16 PM

Nope.  They don’t have to think.  The patriarchy did that for them.

That is what we mean when we say things like “rape culture”.

Caren said it so much better.  Yeah, listen to Caren.  Imma go get some nachos…

Comment #102: The Opoponax  on  12/15  at  10:17 PM

C’mon, Caren.  Whats-his-name wasn’t important to Scarlett, why should he be important to us? smile
Comment #87: seeker6079 on 12/15 at 07:44 PM

Heh, I even read the summary on Wikipedia and still forgot Frank was her husband.

Comment #103: oldfeminist  on  12/15  at  10:37 PM

He could have just stood quietly next to her at the ready rather than barging in trying to be a hero.

This. You stand by your girls the same way you stand by your boys. BY them. Not for them. Not in front of them. But with them. Obviously, and ominously if at all possible, with them.

And yea… he turned his back on the motherfuckers. Wow. Like babes in the wood.

Comment #104: Sarcastro  on  12/15  at  10:44 PM

Heh, I even read the summary on Wikipedia and still forgot Frank was her husband.

That’s what was so funny.  I couldn’t even think of “Frank”.

Poor little Klansman.  Nobody respected him.

Comment #105: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  12/15  at  10:52 PM

It may be that factors other than the woman might have been at play at to why the douchetastic trio decided to attack Cord Jefferson:
http://www.queerty.com/wp/docs/2008/12/2411422-201x240.jpg
http://s3.amazonaws.com/pre.good.is/users/xlarge-1247783464-CIMG1197.JPG
https://www.wmalumni.com/resource/resmgr/news_images/cord_jefferson_200.jpg

Black-ish and gay-ish may have been all they needed to attack him.

Comment #106: seeker6079  on  12/15  at  10:53 PM

Well, that and he was fucking stupid enough to turn his back away from the threat, as sarcastro noted.

Comment #107: seeker6079  on  12/15  at  10:54 PM

Gee whiz, liberalrob is not getting the point of the message/thread. How surprising.

Comment #108: BlackBloc  on  12/15  at  11:05 PM

I’ll reiterate what oldfeminst and rivki have said above. Men hit women all the time. This notion that women and girls live in a bubble of “female privilege” regarding beatdowns is factually incorrect.

In fact, I’ve gotten beatdowns not just in spite of being female, but because of it (and no, I’m not talking about DV or confrontations which I initiated or escalated). This, in spite of race and class privilege, conventionally acceptable appearance, private education—basically everything Caren referred to.

The second time that Caren referred to this supposed privilege, she qualified it as applying to (some) women. Some women have been lucky to avoid attacks, but it’s hardly a general gender-based privilege.

In my experience, women are subject to the types of violence that men are, plus female-specific types of violence.

Then, there’s the point oldfeminist made that the protection of being property is no privilege at all.

Comment #109: psammead0804  on  12/15  at  11:33 PM

Yeah, one can really reason with some folks:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/12/15/2009-12-15_killer_gym_rats_thugs_slay_bklyn_social_worker_in_fight_over_exercise_equipment.html
“A Brooklyn social worker described as “the picture of health” was slain at his neighborhood gym in a feud over exercise equipment. 
Douglas Smith, 50, was knifed and clobbered with a hammer by a pair of muscleheads who attacked him as he worked out at his East Flatbush health club.”

Comment #110: seeker6079  on  12/15  at  11:51 PM

really peammead0804? I guess everyone does have different life experiences. In my experience, though its not as much of an issue now,  growing up and into my 20’s I got into all kinds of physical altercations, mostly due I think to looking like someone who could or would fight. I’ve had fights start or been hit for looking at someone wrong, is that part of the typical female experience? In my experience I have seen the “privilege” Caren refers to though I agree with you overall its not really a privilege, I’m not sure exactly what word would work best for it. Living in the South now it seems to be amplified. Its a little fucked up but many times I’ve been at a bar or a show, had a female friend say or do something to or in reaction to a man then have that man come up to me. It definitely is all about the property aspect of things and the paternalistic side of never hit a woman but it still is everywhere.

Last part, and why I think some MRA types deem it a “privilege”, is many of my female friends say and do things I would never do in a million years. Scream at a guy, throw a drink in his face, in reaction to harassment or not, say something to humilate him, I would never do it because I would be scared of getting into a fight. I dont know what the answer is in those situations, I’m not sure what the woman should do. I’m a huge guy with a lot of training and I still shrink and avoid physical confrontation as much as I can without having to deal with all the shit women do. Perhaps it is a mix of the gender and class but I see more of what Caren was talking about than anything else.

Comment #111: dan&danica;  on  12/15  at  11:56 PM

I guess the notion that a woman facing three harassing, ‘squaring off’ guys is not going to be set in any soicetal context by the commenters who are so determined to embrace ‘female privilege’ that they’re going to turn reality on its head. Of course the woman had no reason to dump her nachos on their head. Yeah. Not in today’s society. Nope, let’s talk about how violence is never okay, and not about what women face every day.

I think he did a shitty job of addressing an interesting point: if we are going to make interpersonal violence unacceptable it has to be unacceptable for everybody, no DV, no punches in bars, no “girly out” for girls who don’t like what they hear, no nothin’.

“Girly” out? Jesus fucking christ.

Comment #112: ginmar  on  12/16  at  12:02 AM

Just wanted to add, as mentioned in this thread, what bothers a lot about the “never hit a girl” bullshit is the minimizing of what actually does go on and how it just seems to accept and normalize violence as long as a woman isnt being hit. That needs to end. It was mentioned up thread that one hit probably isnt going to cripple someone. That is woefully inaccurate. When you are talking about most fully grown men or a lot of women, one hit is enough to maim, cripple, or even kill someone.  Let alone someone who has training and is large/strong.  Violence needs to stop and men need to be the ones to start that.

Comment #113: dan&danica;  on  12/16  at  12:02 AM

ginmar, the “girly out” is a phrase that I’ve heard sarcastically used here and there by women to refer to the act of say, throwing a drink or slapping or something of that nature secure in the knowledge that there will be no physical retaliation.  (Jeff Fecke explained the situation better than I upthread.)  I had assumed that the phrase was common enough to be recognized.  Isn’t it?

Comment #114: seeker6079  on  12/16  at  12:07 AM

Chivalry doesn’t have to be about throwing women a few bones of effortless courtesy to smooth the feathers ruffled by oppression.  It can also be about compassion and respect.

It’s not really chivalry then; it’s more just not being a douchebag.

Comment #115: Dan  on  12/16  at  12:16 AM

People talking about the “female privilege” of not getting hit are missing something. “Never hit a girl” is not and never has been a rule. The real rule is “Never hit a girl you’re not sleeping with.” It’s not a privilege to get emotional abuse with your physical abuse, nor is it a privilege to be physically unable to defend yourself from a man who’s intent on hurting you, as most women are.

Comment #116: Lauren O  on  12/16  at  12:19 AM

Just wanted to add, as mentioned in this thread, what bothers a lot about the “never hit a girl” bullshit is the minimizing of what actually does go on and how it just seems to accept and normalize violence as long as a woman isnt being hit. That needs to end…..  Violence needs to stop and men need to be the ones to start that.

This.  The practical problem with “violence needs to stop and men need to be the ones to start that” may be that the ones who realize this and believe in it—or are capable of doing so—aren’t the ones attacking gormless writers in Tuscon or stabbing social workers in Flatbush.

Comment #117: seeker6079  on  12/16  at  12:24 AM

You stand by your girls the same way you stand by your boys. BY them. Not for them. Not in front of them. But with them.

Of course, the narrator’s inability to get this is similar to the supposed theme of When Harry Met Sally - men and women cannot truly be friends.  A man and a woman cannot stand together in platonic friendly whatever (two beers with those nachos, y’all), because the role of a man is to Defend His Woman.  And the role of a woman is to Need Defending.  Also, to be owned.

All this is bullshit, as we all know.  But it’s stuck into a lot of dudes’ minds.

Comment #118: The Opoponax  on  12/16  at  12:24 AM

... or hitting women that they are or aren’t sleeping with.

Comment #119: seeker6079  on  12/16  at  12:26 AM

@ Seeker, #110:  Weird, that’s at least the 5th murder-due-to-pointless-squabble I’ve heard about this week here in New York.  The other notable one that sticks out in my mind is the guy who was stabbed in an SRO over an argument about bathroom access.  I’m not sure if this sort of thing is on the rise, or if I just read too much Gothamist.

Comment #120: The Opoponax  on  12/16  at  12:26 AM

I’ve had fights start or been hit for looking at someone wrong, is that part of the typical female experience?

This is where the thread is starting to get confusing, because I think that guys are WAY underestimating how often women get into physical fights with other women.  I can think of at least three or four that I’ve been in and I’m a pretty meek person (in person, anyway).

So are we saying that women live in a little bubble of privilege because they generally don’t get into physical fights with men they don’t know, or are we saying that women live in a little bubble of privilege because they don’t get into physical fights with people they don’t know, period?  Because saying the latter is absolutely not true, unless you decide that women only get into “catfights” and only men get into real fights.

Comment #121: Mnemosyne  on  12/16  at  12:28 AM

many of my female friends say and do things I would never do in a million years. Scream at a guy, throw a drink in his face, in reaction to harassment or not, say something to humilate him, I would never do it because I would be scared of getting into a fight. I dont know what the answer is in those situations, I’m not sure what the woman should do. I’m a huge guy with a lot of training and I still shrink and avoid physical confrontation as much as I can without having to deal with all the shit women do. Perhaps it is a mix of the gender and class but I see more of what Caren was talking about than anything else.
Comment #111: dan&danica;  on 12/15 at 09:56 PM

The answer, of course, is that people shouldn’t be hitting each other.

Say something to humiliate a guy?  That should make him hit you?

I mean, I’m not an idiot, I know it will make some guys hit you without a second thought.  I’ve spent my time in bars.  But it’s absurd.  It’s just proof that the power that men have over women in this society is through the threat of violence, because it’s always there, waiting.  Chivalry is the gift they can suddenly stop giving, and that’s when it hurts.

I think you even see this psychodrama with some men when they argue on forums.  They act as if they can back up what they say with a fist and get all somber and frowny and unamused and terse and offended like that will clue their opponent into realizing it’s about to get physical, and bring up scary things if it doesn’t (sometimes obliquely to make it not a personal threat from them).  At that point you can’t reason with them anyway because their bodies are telling them they’re right, and they’re about to cream you because you’re a girl.

The special privilege women get is they don’t as often get punched in public without a lead-up.  They get dragged off into private areas to be taught a lesson by the man they offended, or their owners, or sexually assaulted, instead.  I don’t think this is an amazing payoff or anything (not that you’re saying it is).

I won’t deny that, in some places, that’s still an advantage.  Some boys grow up in a culture that demands they fight, and fight fairly often.  If you’re not good at it it must be a special kind of hell.  Some girls can just kind of slide by in school and stay home otherwise, and if they’re lucky enough not to have an abuser there, escape a lot of it.  Boys have to deal with their peers, and may have no real escape.

However.  Girls pay for this advantage if they want it by being invisible and ineffectual.  To be seen in public is to open yourself to violence.  It’s just that women retreating from public is more socially acceptable; in fact, in some cultures it’s considered the most ladylike thing to do.  Enforced, of course, with the violence on the women who don’t stay home from bars, drink, talk to anyone at the bus stop, wear anything revealing ever, date non-approved boys, don’t keep their knees together and don’t pray a lot.

Comment #122: oldfeminist  on  12/16  at  12:28 AM

Opoponax:
Don’t forget the role of shaming and conditioning.  Many guys are raised from the get-go to believe that abandoning a woman to fend for herself in the face of a threat is one of the most self-debasing, shaming things that he can do.  It’s drilled into them that such an abdication of your `responsibility’ is Wrong with a very large capital W.

Comment #123: seeker6079  on  12/16  at  12:29 AM

Ginmar you can put the situation in any societal context you like, but how in the right you are doesn’t mean much next to the reality of three drunk guys who, according to the body language Cord obviously picked up on, were obviously looking to start some shit and who were big enough to do that level of damage. That’s the kind of thing I learned gradually and painfully after being in those kinds of situations quite a lot when I was in my teens and early twenties. No one’s saying that she was morally in the wrong, just that it was a stupid thing to do. There are violent arseholes out there who want to beat up on someone but you’ve got a much better chance of getting out of an ugly situation by attempting to tone it down than by escalating it.

And no one suggested women don’t face violence in their everyday lives. But it’s much more socially acceptable, especially in public, for someone of either gender to attack a man than a woman. Seeing violence against a woman is still shocking in a way that violence against a man isn’t. That’s why MTV cut that part out of their show despite physical violence against men being an everyday part of TV and movies.

Comment #124: Stubborn Kind of Fellow  on  12/16  at  12:31 AM

Opopo (@ 120) - I don’t think that it’s all that weird or uncommon or unusual or limited to NYC, so you can put away your Happy Morbid Obsessive Club badge.  One of the points that I tried to make to Victoria upthread (and, I think, failed to get her to comprehend it) is that this sort of thing is common and comes out of nowhere and that a sudden interpersonal conflict with the threat of violence is not repeat not the comparatively harmless thing that she thinks it is.

Comment #125: seeker6079  on  12/16  at  12:36 AM

Okay, I read the post, and the guy is a douche.  Three guys surround a woman at night and make comments about her breasts and she’s the one out of line for dumping nachos on them?

Here’s a hint, Jefferson:  the guy who hit you wasn’t thinking that he couldn’t hit a woman so he would hit you instead.  He was mad because you prevented him from groping a woman in public.  He wouldn’t have hit her after getting nacho-ed, because that would have defeated his purpose, which was to sexually humiliate her.

He had some good points at the start of the article—personally, I can’t stand to watch anyone get punched even if it’s an “acceptable” man punching a man situation—but his example was pretty much the worst one he could have chosen.  His friend was on the verge of being sexually assaulted and he thinks that they were planning to get into a fistfight with her?  How fucking naive is he?

Comment #126: Mnemosyne  on  12/16  at  12:37 AM

Also Lauren, the guys who think it’s okay to hit someone they’re sleeping with are firmly in the minority, everyone else regards them rightly as pathetic scum one level above rapists. That’s not to say there isn’t a brand of machismo that states wayward women ‘need to be kept in line’ or that the culture as a whole doesn’t support that way of thinking to some extent, but for most men the act of hitting a woman in any situation is seen as deeply shameful, not to mention weak.

Comment #127: Stubborn Kind of Fellow  on  12/16  at  12:41 AM

“Also Lauren, the guys who think it’s okay to hit someone they’re sleeping with are firmly in the minority, everyone else regards them rightly as pathetic scum one level above rapists.”

Unless they personally know the guys in question, in which case a really disappointing percentage of them will come up with some reason it was okay to hit her or it wasn’t really rape.

Comment #128: preying mantis  on  12/16  at  12:44 AM

Mnem, you are probably right, but don’t underestimate the possibility that the pending assault could have been a conventional one.  Such beat-downs or sudden punch flurries ain’t exactly uncommon.  Hell, I noted a couple of examples just from my own life upthread (one personal and one professional) and I’ve led a comparatively sheltered middle-class life in a safe city in a safe country. 

Or it could be a combination of the two.  Don’t forget that there are some guys who get their sexual jollies from outwardly non-sexual violent acts like beating women.

Comment #129: seeker6079  on  12/16  at  12:45 AM

women live in a little bubble of privilege because they don’t get into physical fights with people they don’t know, period?  Because saying the latter is absolutely not true, unless you decide that women only get into “catfights” and only men get into real fights.

Yeah - There was a particularly tough-looking woman on the subway tonight dominating two seats.  I wanted to sit down, but didn’t want to challenge her right to twice as much public transit real estate as everyone else, because she was bigger than me and looked like she might actually throw a punch if I so much as looked at her.  I actually averted my gaze.  When a seat opened up right across from her, I thought twice about taking it.

I’ve never been in a physical fight before, but the idea that women live in these special protective bubbles?  No way.

Comment #130: The Opoponax  on  12/16  at  12:51 AM

Mnem, you are probably right, but don’t underestimate the possibility that the pending assault could have been a conventional one.

Seeker, three guys don’t surround a woman in public and comment on her breasts because they’re planning to start a fistfight.  They’re planning to sexually assault her.  I’m assuming you don’t understand this because you’ve never actually been cornered by a hostile guy or group of guys groping you in a bar but, trust me, their main purpose was not to punch me.  And for you to suggest that I shouldn’t have been worried that I was about to be sexually assaulted because, really, they probably were just planning to start a fistfight with me is pretty disgusting, not to mention blind to reality.

Comment #131: Mnemosyne  on  12/16  at  12:52 AM

Seeker - no, I get it. It just struck me as interesting that there seem to be so many of these cases in the news here lately.  Probably just a slow week in other grisly crime news.

Comment #132: The Opoponax  on  12/16  at  12:52 AM

Also Lauren, the guys who think it’s okay to hit someone they’re sleeping with are firmly in the minority, everyone else regards them rightly as pathetic scum one level above rapists.

Oh, well I guess women can stop worrying about domestic violence then. I’ll go back to worrying about this poor guy who got punched once and how “precious” he is (his word, not mine).

Comment #133: Lauren O  on  12/16  at  12:53 AM

Mnem:
Point conceded.

Comment #134: seeker6079  on  12/16  at  12:56 AM

I never said domestic violence wasn’t serious or that it doesn’t affect women more, Lauren O, I just pointed out that your assertion that men thought it was okay to hit someone they were sleeping with, is in most cases false.

And preying mantis, I’d say any percentage on that score would be really disappointing. I can’t think of any guy I know who would excuse that kind of thing in a friend, or feel comfortable being around them afterwards but it does happen, especially when there’s some kind of external group situation involved.

Comment #135: Stubborn Kind of Fellow  on  12/16  at  01:14 AM

I can’t think of any guy I know who would excuse that kind of thing in a friend,

Right. All your friends are stand-up guys. Blah de blah blah fucking blah. Because your experience is the universal one.

Comment #136: Nobody in Particular  on  12/16  at  01:18 AM

Fellow, that’s bullshit. Try putting yourself in a woman’s shoes. Oh, fuck it, no, we never do that. It sounds like she just snapped. I didn’t realize women had to be utterly perfect all the time.

Seeker, I’ve never heard the phrase at all, but it sounds like something out of Forties movies.

Jeff Fecke’s comment makes me glad he’s not at Shakesville any more, becuase if I had to read shit lke this frequently:

The fact is that this is one situation—one—where men are pressured into defensive violence, a situation which women do not have to deal with in the same way. Arguing that it’s not a big deal because the damage usually isn’t permanent is as ludicrous as arguing rape isn’t a big deal because nobody dies…usually.


I’d toss my computer out the window. Wow, This is a feminist ally? We’re fucked.

Men intimidate women every goddamned day into silence by ‘squaring off at them’ and this woman obviously had enough. Now she’s got her asshole buddy blaming her because he got hit and Jeff Fecke acting like women don’t have to defend themselves the same way men do. Of course not. Men fight fairer with other men. And comparing rape to some asshole like Cord whatever the fuck his name is? Jesus. Insert plausible deniablity here, though.

  There are some days where I get so much shit tossed at me that I think if one guy had come up and ruined a taco dinner, I’d have flipped my fucking lid, too. And it’s nice to know that there’s be so many whiny ass titty baby men crying about how I started it, I was the violent one, as if a bunch of guys trying to intimidate me or whatever isn’t a threat that most men can’t imagine, no matter how much they whine, mostly because they’re not five foot three inch women in a world full of six foot guys, some of them supposed allies who apparently still don’t get that women face a degree of fear and terror and intimidation and threat that their privileged asses can’t begin to conceive of.

All of which does not take into account, say, how horrifying the situation would be for invisible women, the women who fear being fired if they resist or crap like that. God only know what fed into this situation, but this incident didn’t start with this woman; it started with whatever those asshole guys did to her and Amanda here gets that, at least, but too many of the commenters don’t.

Comment #137: ginmar  on  12/16  at  01:20 AM

OH, yeah, and chivalry is bullshit, too.  Women don’t need defending by men; we need defending from men, and men need to actually think about what women go through before they start shit.

I’ve never been in a physical fight before, but the idea that women live in these special protective bubbles?  No way.

Exactly.

Comment #138: ginmar  on  12/16  at  01:23 AM

Ok ginmar, I get that you don’t care for Jeff, but that slam against him was just uncalled for.

Comment #139: Ben F.  on  12/16  at  01:31 AM

Massive fail on the part of most of the men here in regards to understanding the implications of threatening behavior and violence from men against women and all the baggage that comes along with it.  Very, very disappointing to see it in a place where people should really be more clued in.

The *only* person to blame when someone is injured in a fight is the person that did the injuring.  The way the situation was described sounds very much like violence against the woman was inevitable and she probably dumped the nachos out of sheer terror (and only got saved from assault because her heroic if misguided friend threw himself into the line of fire instead of seeking out a manager and/or calling the police).  Her not doing so would not have stopped the violence from occurring.

Comment #140: PuffyTail  on  12/16  at  01:45 AM

Seeker, I’ve never heard the phrase at all, but it sounds like something out of Forties movies.

Funny, the first time I heard it used in a conversation I thought it was a laughing reference to an excuse of going together to the bathroom to chat away from the ears of the men.

Comment #141: seeker6079  on  12/16  at  01:49 AM

Jesus NIP, why don’t you try reading to the next line. You know, the one where I say my experience is NOT the universal one.

And ginmar, as I said in that comment, I HAVE been in those kinds of situations before. The last time it happened I got headbutted by someone I’d been having a conversation with a second before and got hit enough times round the side of my head that I couldn’t hear through one ear for a week, not to mention black eye, etc.* I know full well that people do things they normally wouldn’t out of fear or anger and I never said women should be perfect in cases when they’re being sexually harassed. But whatever the rightness or wrongness of Cord’s actions, the fact that he felt he had to rush over there pronto to diffuse things speaks volumes about the body language that directly followed on from her dumping the nachos on the guy’s head and transforming the situation from a verbal one to a physical one. She may have been morally in the right overall (it goes without saying the guy doing the punching is to blame) but considering the situation it’s hard to see how that could have done anything but escalate things.

*And before someone says it, I’m not equating that with sexual assault or domestic violence. Just the topic at hand.

Comment #142: Stubborn Kind of Fellow  on  12/16  at  02:00 AM

But whatever the rightness or wrongness of Cord’s actions, the fact that he felt he had to rush over there pronto to diffuse things speaks volumes about the body language that directly followed on from her dumping the nachos on the guy’s head and transforming the situation from a verbal one to a physical one.

So she should have waited for the three guys surrounding her and making sexual comments about her to physically assault her before trying to deter them?

Frankly, I think that Cord rushed over because he correctly read the situation as a very dangerous one for his friend.  His problem is the ignorance that leads him to think that the danger she was in was of getting into a fistfight, not sexual assault by three men.

Comment #143: Mnemosyne  on  12/16  at  02:09 AM

he fact that he felt he had to rush over there pronto to diffuse things speaks volumes about the body language that directly followed on from her dumping the nachos on the guy’s head and transforming the situation from a verbal one to a physical one. She may have been morally in the right overall (it goes without saying the guy doing the punching is to blame) but considering the situation it’s hard to see how that could have done anything but escalate things.
Comment #142: Stubborn Kind of Fellow on 12/16 at 12:00 AM

Hard for you to see it, but in fact, if she was already about to get sexually assaulted, it’s not escalating anything.  Six guys making sexual comments about her?  That’s a threat. 

Maybe she was hoping the uproar would get the police there, the way telling an employee at a fast food restaurant “those guys are talking about my breasts” rarely seems to do.

If they out looking for a fight instead of a grope, they were going to find a way to start one.  The chivalric code doesn’t really allow a guy to let some other guy make ugly comments about a female friend’s breasts.

Comment #144: oldfeminist  on  12/16  at  02:14 AM

Oops, sorry, three men, not six.

Comment #145: oldfeminist  on  12/16  at  02:15 AM

seeker,

They don’t see or emotionally experience curves up and down with reason along one bar and feelings along the other, they’re not rational adjustment people.  They deal with lines, with sudden changes to instant action and violence, the sucker punch, the kick to the groin, the knife coming out, frequently out of what seems like nowhere to normal people.

ok, but can you claim this at the same time as claiming that her dumping the nachos was provocation to these “primitives?” if they’re completely irrational, isn’t it just as likely that anything short of, i dunno, her servicing them all sexually right then & there, would be read as “provocation”?

i believe you about your experiences with female friends, from the “girly out” to implying you were a wimp for deflating a potentially violent situation with words, but i’ll add my voice to the other women saying that isn’t the universe i live in. for one thing, i’ve been sexually assaulted by strangers on the street, so i have no illusion that “a man wouldn’t hit me.”

for another, my feminism, since i was little, has been wrapped up in my sense of personal honour, of not doing unto others what would be distasteful to me. the only time i can remember hitting a guy not in self defense was when i was twelve, & i slapped a twelve year old boy in the face (unprovoked, on a dare. he was a guy i was sometimes friends with, & to his credit, i think he just stared at me). i felt extremely guilty after i did that, & still feel somewhat guilty. i have shoved men, but that was when the sexual assault was well underway.

Comment #146: miriam beetle  on  12/16  at  04:16 AM

i would say categorically that i’ve never acted differently towards an aggressive male in the company of my male friends, but this thread has brought up a memory that makes me wonder. last spring, my husband & i were walking around toronto in the wee hours of the morning, lugging our heavy rolling suitcases on the way to catch a bus to the airport. a bus overtook us, & we started running for it. in our encumbered state, we only made it a few feet before the bus was gone.

from behind, i heard “hey! don’t you know better than to run in front of a dog?! what are you, stupid?? you don’t run in front of a dog!!” we turned to see a short but ostentatiously muscular guy, looking like a wannabe gang member, struggling with a dog (one of those tough-guy breeds, like a pit bull or a rottweiler) on a chain. i was startled to be yelled at, but kind of amused at how little control he had of his dog, & i muttered, “maybe you should train your dog.”

now, i often don’t mutter as quietly as i think, & he hauled off & shouted “WHAT DID YOU SAY TO ME??” i made to keep walking, but mike enunciated, “maybe you should train your dog.” it all kind of escalated from there, with the guy following us for several blocks, hurling increasingly worse epithets at us, & mike answering back for his own entertainment. i remember the insults were mostly aimed at mike (everything from “you fat f-ing chink” to “vancouver sucks” cause he had a canucks jersey on), but probably because i had kept completely quiet after the first “escalation.”

he swore he was gonna kick mike’s ass, & mike coolly invited him to do it. despite being a fat f-ing chink (or indeed, an overweight japanese-canadian) mike figured that he could take the little wannabe gangbanger in a fight, & l.w.g. seemed to think so too. he kinda lunged-&-stopped-short a couple of times, & a few times jerked the dog’s chain & urged it to attack us (it was poignant & funny to see the dog just dig its heels in & show no inclination to do anything of the sort). eventually, he quit following us, just standing & yelling, as we walked away, how he was gonna kick mike’s ass etc.

so we just ended up with a funny story out of it. my husband is not the kind to ever back down from a fight (not really a good trait, in my opinion), but he’s also not the kind to ever start a fight (definitely a good trait). i was awfully lucky that mike was there when i (unintentionally) mouthed off to that guy. contrary to what cord believes, i think l.w.g would have hit me (with maybe some bonus rape thrown in) if i were alone, being shorter than him & a girl, but kept himself in check because my male companion was bigger than him & never flinched.

i now wonder if i would have muttered under my breath if i’d been alone. probably not, cause i am used to being very wary & fearful whenever i’m walking alone at night. if i’d seen the guy behind me in the first place, i might have preemptively crossed the street, missed bus be damned. or maybe not… i did have my suitcases to consider (being annoyed at lugging all that probably contributed to my mouthiness).

as far as female lippiness entitlement, i think my husband wouldn’t have hesitated to answer that guy back if he himself had been alone. he is not generally meek to people who shout at him on the street. whereas i feel that i have been trained to be (with the assaults & whatnot).

Comment #147: miriam beetle  on  12/16  at  04:17 AM

I’ll reiterate what oldfeminst and rivki have said above. Men hit women all the time. This notion that women and girls live in a bubble of “female privilege” regarding beatdowns is factually incorrect.

In fact, I’ve gotten beatdowns not just in spite of being female, but because of it (and no, I’m not talking about DV or confrontations which I initiated or escalated). This, in spite of race and class privilege, conventionally acceptable appearance, private education—basically everything Caren referred to.

The second time that Caren referred to this supposed privilege, she qualified it as applying to (some) women. Some women have been lucky to avoid attacks, but it’s hardly a general gender-based privilege.

I’m not gonna dispute that contention, because so much violent crime is under-reported that reliance on crime stats might not be that useful when it comes to comparing gender-based rates of physical violence that doesn’t result in death.

In my experience, women are subject to the types of violence that men are, plus female-specific types of violence.

That said, murder isn’t a crime that’s generally underreported in the way that rape and DV often are… it’s hard to murder someone without it being noticed and reported.

And the fact is, if you are a male in the United States, you are three times as likely to be murdered than if you are a female.  75% of all murder victims in the United States are male.  Obviously, the overwhelming majority of homicides are perpetrated by males (88%), and even the number of male on female homicides (22.7%) far outweighs the number of female on male homicides (9.6%), but the point being, there is one type of violent crime - if not the worst type, at least the second-worst type - in which men really are more likely to be a victim than women… murder.

Now, while legitimate criticisms can be made about the accuracy of FBI crime stats for non-homicide violent crimes due to underreporting, I think the FBI numbers on homicide are probably pretty close to spot on.  I don’t think there is a large percentage of murders, regardless of the victim’s gender, taking place that aren’t being reported and figured into the stats.  Rape and domestic violence are absolutely under-reported in the official stats.  But preventing a rape from ever being reported is far less difficult than preventing a murder from ever being reported.  Or, more callously… it’s a hell of a lot easier to rape someone and get away with it than it is to kill someone and get away with it.  And even if you do get away with murder, it’s still usually reported as a homicide in the stats, even if the perp is never identified, because usually someone notices when the victim just disappears, and dead bodies don’t usually lie.  Point being, the disparity between reported homicides and unreported homicides is far smaller than is the case with almost any other violent crime.  So I’m inclined to believe the FBI’s numbers when they state that men are three times more frequently victims of murder than women.

The overall violent crime stats in the U.S. indicate that 21.3% of males males were victims of ALL violent crimes in 2008, and 17.3% of females were victims of ALL violent crimes in 2008.  Now, given the fact that so many instances of rape and DV are never reported, I’m certain that in reality, a higher overall percentage of women are victims of ALL violent crimes than men.

But murder is the one violent crime in which your odds of being a victim are actually lower if you are a woman than if you are a man, at least in the United States.

Comment #148: DTG in STL  on  12/16  at  04:36 AM

Fuck you, you guys who are assuming women expect the men around them to protect us!

I’m a little too mature now to start a fight, methinks, when I’ve learned ways of shaming assholes out of assholery. Bu if I start a fight, it is MY fight. In fact, if violence is a suggestion in a situation, I would likely ‘take point’, not because I expect to b e spared because I’m a woman, but because I have exquisite defensive reflexes, an aggressive side that doesn’t get enough play, gentle loved ones, and an absurdly protective attitude towards others.

And as for the girl starting things with the nachos, since her male friend wasn’t there when it started, was that truly the first physical contact? Because my experience is that when women speak of harassment, they often are including grabby hands. Dumping the nachos could merely have been a way to clear her hands and put one of her assailants at what could be a psychological disadvantage.

Of course, in this day and age, the correct thing to do in most cases is whip out the old cell phone.

Comment #149: Samantha Vimes  on  12/16  at  06:38 AM

Kind of an outburst from me, but I’ve had a few buttons pressed with this.

1. The assumption that men, but not women, have a sense of obligation to protect others.
So not true. I can’t remember much in the way of being protected by men, even verbally, but my gal-pals will never stand by in silence if someone tries to intimidate or humiliate me. Rape culture makes women conscious of when other women are in danger, too, and the bonds of friendship and ‘sisterhood’ are meaningful.

2. Bullying. Every thread we’ve had on bullying, all the anecdotes come down to one thing. Bullies continue attacking weak targets. Bullies can be scared or hurt into retreat.
So why the fuck, in this clear case of an attempted bullying, would anyone say the girl should have been MEEK?! She’d have probably been sexually assaulted if she hadn’t dumped the nachos. Her friend did exactly the wrong thing in trying to “de-escalate”, because he put a sign on himself saying “I’m weak and fearful.” He got punched because a bully who wants to punch someone loves to sucker-punch an apologetic weakling.

3. Between ages 11-13 I was stuck in a school where the boys sexually harassed and groped girls all day long. Verbal escalates to physical fast, and so the fear starts when the verbal shit does. You do what you can to make the guys back away, even if it gets you labeled psycho. A pack of sexual aggressors does not go away when ignored.

Comment #150: Samantha Vimes  on  12/16  at  07:41 AM

At the risk of proving that feminists are fucked because they have such a lousy ally as me, let me state that I think there’s a lot of talking past each other going on in this thread, and not a lot of listening. Because I think there are good points on both sides of this discussion, and I think that we’re missing them because a lot of us are working hard not to see things from different perspectives.

I don’t believe that men are inherently more violent than women, and I definitely don’t believe that men should sally forth to the rescue of damsels in distress—my daughter’s learning Kung Fu for a reason, because I damn well do want her to be able to defend herself if she has to.

But when we talk about the patriarchy, we can’t ignore the fact that for all the ways it conspires to keep women in their place, it conspires to keep men in their place, too—with the kind of results we see here. Would I do what Cord did in that situation? You bet—and that’s a gender-neutral statement, as I’d be equally responsive if it was a male or female friend in a bad situation. Granted, the dangers might be different—I think it is fair to suggest that a sexual assault was a likely outcome of the situation as it presented itself, and that’s something that I wouldn’t necessarily have read into the situation.

Why would I charge into the middle of it? Me, a guy who avoids conflict whenever possible, a guy who is lousy in a fight, and whose best move is the getting-hit-in-the-face? Because I’ve been told, from a very young age, that I’m supposed to. That it is my job to defend friends, to keep them out of trouble and, if necessary, to fight by their sides.

I think that’s what Cord was trying to do here. He was reacting to something that is beaten into our boys from day one—you defend your friends—and he was doing what he could to make that happen. And that’s a situation that men here can identify with, as I’d wager most of us have been in similar situations.

Because we’ve been conditioned to jump into the fray, we do. Is it smart? I don’t know, maybe it isn’t. But we’re expected to, the way women have been conditioned to expect to do housework, because it’s a woman’s job. Fighting is a man’s job, and it’s something we’re supposed to be willing to do when the time comes. For all Cord’s frustration and ham-handedness in explaining himself, I misdoubt he’d hate himself far worse if he hadn’t stepped in, especially if this was, as I think was the case, the beginning of a sexual assault. Indeed, if that was the case, Cord’s actions were unquestionably praiseworthy, as he prevented a sexual assault from taking place, and was seriously injured in the process.

Now, that said, I agree that Cord’s anger at his friend is misplaced, and comes from not understanding the position she found herself in. If three male knuckleheads surround me and start lipping off, they’re looking for a fight. If three male knuckleheads surround my sister and start lipping off, they’re not looking for a fight. They’re looking to, at best, verbally harass and intimidate her, and at worst, to sexually assault her. That’s not a minor difference; rape is considered worse than simple assault for very damn good reasons, primarily because rape is worse than assault. Psychologically, physically, emotionally—its effects are more traumatic and more far-reaching, and it is rightly considered one of the most serious criminal offenses that exist.

Because of that, people fearing being sexually assaulted have to be permitted some additional leeway in preemptively defending themselves. Does that extend to violence? It’s easy to say no, but much harder when you’re dealing with an actual situation than just theorizing. Really, I don’t see much wrong with the action of Cord or his friend; both were doing what they could to get out of a very bad situation. They maybe didn’t behave perfectly, but I’m not going to criticize them for that; few of us are perfect.

Ultimately, I agree, Cord shouldn’t be upset with his friend, at least not the way he’d be at a male friend who did something similar, because the situations aren’t analogous (a mistake I made in my initial reaction to this piece—as that was my initial emotional reaction, to view it as I would when it was a male friend involved). But I also don’t think we can fault Cord for stepping in to protect a friend, nor should we fault it as chivalry run amok, or a guy trying to keep his female friend in line. Ultimately, it was a friend trying to keep a friend from a bad situation. That’s generally something that should be lauded.

Comment #151: Jeff Fecke  on  12/16  at  07:43 AM

a guy finds an apparently stray dog and tries to pet it, and the dog bites him. another guy walks up, starts acting like he’s the dog’s owner, and weakly apologizes to the guy who got bit, and tells him that dogs bite and he should just live with it. turns out the new guy is not the dog’s owner, but just happens to know the stray dog. think about what’s going through the first guy’s mind. he’s been bit by a dog, a guy acting like the dog’s owner tells him to live with it, and it turns out that the jerk isn’t even the dog’s owner after all. of course he’s angry!

the whole “chivalric” notion of not hitting women is really a “property” notion. you don’t want to damage the goods.

Comment #152: cj  on  12/16  at  09:03 AM

It’s become an article of faith in this thread that Jefferson was angry at his friend or that he blamed her.  He never states that, and the closest he comes is offering a submission display to the assholes, which under those circumstances is pretty much the only hope for avoiding escalation.

Comment #153: togolosh  on  12/16  at  09:22 AM

152 comments, and I bet my larger points are still not addressed and we’re still debating how much the female victim of this crime has to bear the blame for what happened.  Neither Jefferson nor the female victim who was merely harassed and not punched are to blame.  Victims are not to blame for crimes or harassment.  Perps are.

Jefferson’s not to blame for being hit.  He’s to blame for thinking that his friend deserved to be hit in his stead.  No one deserved to be hit.

Comment #154: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/16  at  09:46 AM

Okay, rereading it I see that some folks addressed the point.  Thanks, guys!

Comment #155: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/16  at  09:47 AM

Not an article of “faith”, tog.  A legitimate interpretation of the text. I would say that when you apologize for a woman, and then finish up by saying that you took her punch, you’re blaming her.

Comment #156: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/16  at  09:48 AM

To me the key sentence is this:But why is it unimaginably worse for an asshole to haul off and hit Snooki than for an asshole to haul off and hit a man Snooki’s size, for no reason whatsoever? Seems like a reasonable and vaguely interesting question to me.

It’s really not, though.  As I point out in the article—-and this is the point that the debate over how much blame the female victim has to bear in this situation is distracting from—-the real question is not, “Why don’t feminists address women’s privileges before they start attacking men’s?”  The real question is, “Why can’t Cord see that male on male violence is cut from the same masculinity bullshit that male on female violence is?” Making this a men vs. women issue is missing the point.  I hate the dudes trolling for fights with other dudes thing.  But feminism is already addressing it, and Cord strongly implies that feminism is making it worse.  But what causes domestic violence, rape, etc. is what also causes the masculinity displays that got Cord so fucked up.

Comment #157: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/16  at  09:55 AM

Whether or not a woman lives in fear of being punched on the nose by a guy who harasses her is a red herring.  She may not think that will be the response if she doesn’t put up with his crap, but she certainly lives in the fear that he will put her in her place by following her to a place where she’s alone and raping her.

Comment #158: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/16  at  10:03 AM

d&danicam;, you admit that you’re a huge guy—maybe, just maybe, men don;t haul off and hit women in front of you.

Scream at a guy, throw a drink in his face, in reaction to harassment or not, say something to humilate him, I would never do it because I would be scared of getting into a fight.

Yeah, I’d never do those things either, for the same reason.

And yes, I’ve been hit for “looking at someone wrong”, or for being in a place the guys in question didn’t think I should be.

Your comment sounds like you think my experience is unusual—I assure you it’s not.

Comment #159: psammead0804  on  12/16  at  10:14 AM

Gee, Jeff, how very passive aggressive of you.  Fuck that shit. No, you want to whine that the patriarchy hurts men, too! Ultimately, I agree, Cord shouldn’t be upset with his friend, at least not the way he’d be at a male friend who did something similar, because the situations aren’t analogous (a mistake I made in my initial reaction to this piece—as that was my initial emotional reaction, to view it as I would when it was a male friend involved).

Mighty white of you, there. What you’re hiding behind that weak shit is the fear and harassment and abuse that women with every day, and that needs to be addressed every damned time.

But when we talk about the patriarchy, we can’t ignore the fact that for all the ways it conspires to keep women in their place, it conspires to keep men in their place, too—with the kind of results we see here.

  HUh. I see no mention there of the way it rewards men while punishing women at every opportunity, while men get to rape, beat, and kill women with impunity. That’s not equal. That’s not ‘too’.

Mediocre men get treated in this culture like they’re Gods, while extraordinary women get ignored, stomped on, labeled as uppity, marked for takedown, or God only knows what else.

Comment #160: ginmar  on  12/16  at  10:38 AM

This is a rare case where I think women are blinded to female privilege.

Oh yes, we have the privilege to just be sexually harassed, threatened by rape, and beat up behind closed doors.  But hardly anyone will actually punch us in the face in a public place.  What a great fucking privilege!  The problem is that nothing is free, and part of the deal for not getting punched in public is that we’re supposed to look the other way or scurry away in shame or fear whenever men sexually harass us.  Sorry, but that is a lousy deal and I do not feel privileged to be part of it.

Comment #161: bananacat  on  12/16  at  10:56 AM

I’d certainly rather be punched in the face than sexually harassed.  It’s not like you can sexually harass someone back, ya know.  Geez.  Anyone who thinks women have the better end of this deal are fucking pathetic (my inner man-child wanted to say “fucking pussies.”)

Although, it might be nice to get harassed every now and again.  Just so I know I’m pretty.

Comment #162: Svlad Jelly  on  12/16  at  11:19 AM

I have scars on my hands from where I was attacked with a steak knife in a bar by a man.  Please tell me more about my FEMALE PRIVILEGE of never being violently attacked by men in public who I’m not sleeping with.

Fuck the whole lot of you faux-allies.

Comment #163: Gypsy Lee  on  12/16  at  11:29 AM

Shorter faux allies: hey! hey! The patriarchy didn’t hurt that woman over there! It hurt me! Burn the bitch!

This reminds me of any rape brouhaha discussion, where some woman dares to live her life like a human being and go to a party or something similarly uppity. People line up for days to take shots at her, because she challenged the patriarchy, so what does she expect?!

Samantha Vimes, you’re the first person to call it for what it was: bullying. Funny how when kids are bullied people tell them to stand up for themselves, but for women, such a thing is horrifying.

DTG…Men are brought up to be violent, use violence to dominate, and it’s no surprise if the chickens come home to roost. Otherwise…you do realize that there are more women than men in the US, so what are the actual numbers?

And how many murders to men commit versus women? The ratio is something like nine to one, and even so, many of those murders by women can be understood to be acts of self defense that in today’s society are regarded just as so many people perceive this woman’s acts:  uppityness that had to be punished. The patriarchy has lots of enforcers, but more than that, it’s got many, many enablers.

Oh, and Jeff? Womens’ rights are never ‘incidentally.’ Fail.

Comment #164: ginmar  on  12/16  at  11:52 AM

This notion that women and girls live in a bubble of “female privilege” regarding beatdowns is factually incorrect.

That’s why I qualified my point above with “(some)”.  It’s a white middle to upper class woman privilege, but as my little anecdatum shows, it’s not much of a privilege.  My male companions let me know that they could be hit in proxy, when I never thought about anyone being hit for saying something (that was the privilege—the innocence of believing violence Happens. To. Other. People.).  So suddenly my privilege of not-being-hit-able was constrained by needing to make sure that my male companions wouldn’t have to take the hit for me.

Again, it wasn’t much of a privilege, anyway, since it’s accompanied by implied lack of agency, but even in the full flower of white teen-ness, it was a conditional privilege.

I think it’s only important to me to call it privilege b/c it mirrors my experience of discovering white privileges like being able to hail a cab and have it stop.  You think that’s the same for everyone when you are a member of the privileged class, and it was a shock to realize that that’s not the way the world works, it’s how it works for me

That’s what I meant by privilege…living in a world where you aren’t even aware of something that is a common factor in other people’s lives.

Being a young, white, upper-middle class, female teen came with the assumption that no one was going to hit me, even if I was saying something obnoxious.  Had I been a boy, I wouldn’t have thought that way, b/c boys automatically are taught they have to be ready to fight a bully and not to be obnoxious if they’re outnumbered.

Comment #165: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  12/16  at  11:52 AM

miriam beetle @ #146 asked me:

... can you claim this at the same time as claiming that her dumping the nachos was provocation to these “primitives?”

Easy enough to answer: I never claimed that what she did was provocation; my own views are closer to yours and oldfeminist (@#74), i.e. that primitives are often looking to escalate from the get-go.  I think you may have me mixed up with some other poster on the provocation concept.

I can’t recall but do believe that I called the nacho dump an “escalation”.  Others have noted that the escalation may have been necessary to protect herself from an imminent groping or worse; they may be quite correct and that would change the situation from “escalation” to “self defense”.  It may also be that they’re reading in because not every leering pig’s comment is the prelude to a physical assault: some guys are just mouthy wastes of skin who talk trash.  We have, for the moment, only the four corners of Cord Jefferson’s story, which is 1. “made a comment about my friend’s breasts”, then 2. “her lifting her tray of nachos and dumping it all over one of the guy’s heads”, then 3. “the three men immediately stood up and squared off with my friend”.

Samantha Vimes @149: Others have noted that it often has nothing to do with what the woman in question expects, it’s the patriarchal/cultural conditioning which creates and integrates that expectation into (what I guess we can call) the default conduct codes of many (most?) males.

Comment #166: seeker6079  on  12/16  at  11:53 AM

... and what Caren noted at 165 is linked to that too and is important to remember: the conditioning on men to defend women is indeed “accompanied by implied lack of agency” on her part.  That’s why other posters have, IMHO, correctly noted that it might have been better for him to stand by to back her up as she fielded it, (maybe saying “9-1-1, NOW!” to the clerks as he walked by, or getting his own phone out to do it himself).

Having typed that, though, I am concerned that if the cops had shown up before the sucker punch occurred they might have taken the cobags’ side.

Comment #167: seeker6079  on  12/16  at  11:59 AM

I agree that there is a gendered expectation that men leap into the breach to physically defend other people in cases of physical confrontation.  (Women defend their friends too, but I don’t think we are facing as heavy a cultural expectation in this regard.  For example, it would be considered culturally acceptable for a woman to call 911 or get assistance somewhere else rather than leaping into the fray herself.) And I think it is fair to acknowledge that this is a cultural burden men bear. 

But the problem I see is Cord’s framing of this double-standard as a privilege of the woman’s.  In fact, the possibility of a man having to leap to the defense of a woman is frequently interpreted as putting him in charge of her.  In my family growing up, it was understood that my father could tell my mother and us kids what to do in public because he was in charge of our well-being and safety.  In other words, we had to put up with him being a bossy, controlling ass.  I am not kidding.  And I re-lived this with a boyfriend who on one occasion kept grabbing my arm and steered me relentlessly through a crowd even when I repeatedly tried to yank myself away from him.  His excuse for man-handling me in this way was that it was his job to ensure that I got where we were going in safety.  We had a massive screaming match afterwards, and we broke up—me deciding that I would rather take my chances on my own than be with some guy who feels obligated to take charge of me.  (In fairness, we had other problems but this one incident was the straw that broke the camel’s back.)

So the “men defend women” ethic really has the result of putting women in their place.  It really is a lose-lose situation for everyone involved.  Men, of course, feel obligated to leap into the fray when things get physical.  And even when such protective men have the best of intentions, the result is still crap for the woman.  And often, some of these “protective” men don’t have the best of intentions, but instead use their role as “protector” to try to control women.

Comment #168: Laurie  on  12/16  at  12:01 PM

No one’s saying that she was morally in the wrong, just that it was a stupid thing to do.

Actually, while I said it was probably a stupid thing to do, we don’t know what led up to it.  Cord didn’t see what happened first.  She may have made a perfectly rational decision, and his subsequent blaming her for being hit is wrong.  She didn’t hit him.

And again, dumping nachos on the guys is not that different from throwing a drink at them, which, again, is part of the same traditional storyline as “don’t hit a girl”.

Reality, however, is different from the traditional stories we tell.

Comment #169: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  12/16  at  12:02 PM

how about:

“dudes harass his friend, his friend is a 4th degree black belt. his friend plants her left heel in the mouth of the guy with the biggest one. after being revived by a pitcher of cold water to his face, all three dudes apologize for being assholes, and leave”

just a thought.

Comment #170: cpinva  on  12/16  at  12:07 PM

It’s a white middle to upper class woman privilege,

No, it’s not, Caren—that’s what I was telling you. Perhaps you were lucky, but you can’t generalize that to all others in your race/social class.

Being a young, white, upper-middle class, female teen came with the assumption that no one was going to hit me, even if I was saying something obnoxious.

Again—for you, maybe. My sisters and I (white, upper-middle-class) had to contend with the same bullying from boys that our male peers did, plus the female-specific (i.e. sexually-tinged) stuff, too. Perhaps it was not your gender that protected you—maybe you were just well-sheltered, and lucky.

I think you are assuming that your experience generalizes, when in fact it does not.

@Gypsy Lee: I have scars on my hands from where I was attacked with a steak knife in a bar by a man.  Please tell me more about my FEMALE PRIVILEGE

Yeah, I have a nice scar up my forehead from the guy who thought it would be fun to take some swings at my head with a broken table leg on my way home from work while a carful of his buddies watched. Fractured both wrists too. But hey, “you never hit a girl” is ingrained in every man from birth, so I must have imagined the whole thing.

Comment #171: psammead0804  on  12/16  at  12:10 PM

I was “a young, white, upper-middle class, female” when I was attacked. And I was attacked, btw, when I responded verbally and negatively to that guy’s sexual harassment.  While I’m not trying to claim that nothing about “Being a young, white, upper-middle class, female ” is privileged (that would be patently absurd), I am saying that it’s a “privilege” in the way “being fuckable” is a privilege - it’s only a privilege as long as the men around you allow it to be.  Once they decide to attack you for not being what they want you to be it vanishes immediately.

Comment #172: Gypsy Lee  on  12/16  at  12:11 PM

I think the statistics showing that men are more likely to be subject to stranger-violence in public (usually by other men) is important.

What is telling is that we don’t respond to these statistics by trying to stifle men for their own protection.  Men are more likely to get mugged, but never do you see overwrought editorials urging men to avoid walking around by themselves.  (In fact, I would guess that men are more likely to get mugged because they are more likely to be wandering around alone in a quiet area at a weird hour.)  Men are more likely to be punched in the face by a stranger, but never do you hear about parents giving their sons an earlier curfew than their daughters, or wringing their hands about their sons’ safety to the same extent as they do with regard to their daughters.  Men are not systematically taught in the same way women are to defuse situations, back away, or placate the aggressor.  Some men, like Cord, may come to the conclusion that that is the best response, but they don’t have their own vulnerability systematically impressed upon them the way women do.

Comment #173: Laurie  on  12/16  at  12:13 PM

psammead0804 - don’t you feel so privileged to be female!  I mean, hey, we were attacked violently by dudez, but we’re not dudez, so it’s not proof that female privilege is a bullshit WATM! tactic. It’s much worse when it happens to guys, you know, cuz it NEVER happens to women. our “allies” say so, so it’s true!

Comment #174: Gypsy Lee  on  12/16  at  12:16 PM

I’ve never been in a physical fight before, but the idea that women live in these special protective bubbles?  No way.

I think I caused a major thread derail that I didn’t mean to cause.  The Special Protective Bubble that I called ‘privilege’ is a lie.  B/c as preying mantis said above, if a man hits/rapes a woman, his buddies will come up with a reason that makes it okay for him to have done it and for her to have deserved it.

I’ve been in one physical fight in my life…I was 12 and it was over a disagreement during a game of freeze tag.  The boy in question kept insisting that I call him “gay”.  So I finally did, turning away, and he jumped me.  Didn’t last long, as his mom came flying out of the house, but I got sent home for the language I used while getting pummeled.

That’s it.  I came close to a physical fight a couple times in jr. high, but managed to de-escalate the situation.

I’m almost 43, so it’s been over 30 years since anyone threatened to hit me.  Not that there haven’t been threatening situations or situations where I was concerned for my safety, but not one that got to the point of someone threatening to hit me.  Is that really so unusual? 

Seriously.  I’m not being sarcastic.  Maybe I still live in a Safety Bubble that most of you don’t have.  I don’t know, and I’d like to.

Comment #175: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  12/16  at  12:16 PM

cpinva @ #170: suits me, but you might want to cross-reference the fre cop reality noted @ #11.

Comment #176: seeker6079  on  12/16  at  12:21 PM

“the fre” was supposed to be “the frequent but not universal” until my thumb dropped at the wrong time.

Comment #177: seeker6079  on  12/16  at  12:22 PM

So suddenly my privilege of not-being-hit-able was constrained by needing to make sure that my male companions wouldn’t have to take the hit for me.

To me, this is the worst part of the issue.  It’s like you owe him something for protecting you, when you never asked to be protected.  So in exchange for this unspoken, unwanted, condescending protection, it’s suddenly much, much easier for men to ask things of women in general.  It’s like, “We protect you from getting punched, so you pay us back by providing unpaid domestic labor”.  It’s the same thing with all “chivalry”-it’s conditional.  Maybe women don’t have to open doors with their weak little woman arms, but then they’re expected to do scrub dishes, mop the floor, and carry around babies with those same apparently weak arms.  or women are so lucky that they don’t have to pay for their own drinks and fancy dinners, but this comes with the conditions that it’s ok to pay them less because they don’t have those expenses, or even worse, that they owe men sex for paying for their drinks.  I would much rather open my own doors, pay for my own drinks, and even get punched in the face than be permanently indebted to men for protecting me.

Comment #178: bananacat  on  12/16  at  12:26 PM

I don’t know, and I’d like to.

Yes, you have been fortunate. We’re telling you.

Comment #179: psammead0804  on  12/16  at  12:27 PM

Caren,

I am a white, middle-class female, and I can relate to your sense of living in a Safety Bubble.  I am close to your age and mostly live my life assuming that I will not be subject to violence.  In contrast, most men I know of my same demographic have been in some kind of physical altercation at some point or another. 

But on reflection, I think the sense of a Safety Bubble is an illusion.  In my case, I think of it a lot of it is a product of how I (consistent with my female training) avoid situations where I think violence might occur.  I live a bourgeois life in which I am not closing down the bar at 2 a.m. or wandering around a sketchy part of town.  If a stranger talks trash to me in a public space, I usually say nothing and find a quick retreat from the situation.  And generally, in those situations I feel safe even if I do need to defend myself because it is usually a crowded daytime milieu.  (For example, I once gave a mighty shove to a man who tried to grab my breast at a crowded urban cross-walk.  I wasn’t afraid because I believed—rightly or wrongly—that violence was impossible during the day with so many people about.  And I only chose to shove because there was no way to retreat.)

Because I systematically avoid situations in which I believe danger might occur, I have an illusion of safety but (a) I would be wrong to assume that I am completely safe, and (b) my sense of safety is in large part a product of significant constraints I put on my own behavior.

Comment #180: Laurie  on  12/16  at  12:32 PM

“I am close to your age and mostly live my life assuming that I will not be subject to violence.”

to paraphrase Liss at Shakesville: It’s the presence of a violent man that makes the difference.  no violent man around = I wouldn’t have the steak knife story to tell. 

I avoid dangerous situations too.  I thought I was untouchable too.  Doesn’t make a lick of difference what WE do.  If there’s a violent man around, we’re not safe.  Period.

Comment #181: Gypsy Lee  on  12/16  at  12:43 PM

The word “privilege” just isn’t the right one to describe what I meant to say.  I’ll try again.

I was NOT protected from being hit or threatened b/c I was female.  I was taught that by the patriarchy, and reality is something different. 

The limited freedom to assume people won’t hit you is being construed as a ‘female privilege’ by Cord—the assholes hit him instead b/c they wouldn’t hit a girl.  He thinks this b/c the patriarchy hurts men, too, and in this ONE instance it’s a literal hurt.  The patriarchy EXPECTS men to get into physical fights.

As I said above, feminism will free men first as it will become more acceptable to hit women, too, b/c they aren’t special LONG before it becomes more acceptable NOT TO HIT ANYONE.

People are annoyed with Cord for 2 main reasons:

1. He’s whining about the patriarchy hurting him, and while he admits his hurts are not as bad as those women get, he’s still using the patriarchy to blame his friend for getting him hit.  That’s douchey on a theoretical level.  That’s were I misused “privilege” to describe how the patriarchal rule “don’t hit girls” does hurt men, too.

Patriarchy does hurt men.  It just empowers them a hell of a lot more, and the blaming of his friend (which is ultimately what he is doing by claiming that he got hit b/c the assholes wouldn’t hit a girl) has Cord immediately using the patriarchy to his advantage even after being literally and physically hurt by it.

2.  Reality.  Cord fundamentally misunderstands or mischaracterizes the situation (or both).  His friend did NOT start the situation.  The men were probably NEVER going to hit her, or at least not hit her in the same way they hit him.  They were sexually harassing her, and we don’t know if throwing nachos on them was a variation of the patriarchal story “lady throws drink on cad” or if they were groping her and she was beginning to defend herself.  Had Cord not been there “to take the punch”, they wouldn’t have just hit her—they may have slapped her around while sexually assaulting her, for being uppity enough to question their authority to sexually harrass/assault her, they may have beaten her to a pulp before, during, or after sexually assaulting her, they may have just groped her till she screamed loud enough to attract the bouncers—>but they were already involved in hurting her.  She wasn’t being protected by being female.

I think there’s a bit of talking past each other here about points 1 & 2, and I contributed to the misunderstanding by characterizing my naivety as “privilege”, when it’s a privilege that doesn’t actually confer the protection the patriarchy claims.

It’s a case where the patriarchy hurts men, too, and we need to be able to acknowledge that patriarchy hurts everyone.  It hurts women far far more, and that can’t be ignored and should always be primary, but it still hurts everyone.  I don’t think anyone here, or even Cord himself, meant to say Cord was victimized more by patriarchy than women are.  But Cord does turn right around and use the patriarchy to shift blame from the men who hit him to his female friend for having a ‘privilege’ that wasn’t doing jack shit to protect her at the time.

Comment #182: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  12/16  at  12:54 PM

I think it’s bass-ackwards to define it in terms of female privilege. 

Boys do however learn at an early age that you don’t call another guy out unless you are willing to “back it up.”  “You better be ready to back that up” is standard guytalk for “back up right now or the fight’s on!”

Bully’s, being cowards, know that they can get away with calling out a woman (harrassing, insulting, groping, etc.) without such a risk of a beat-down.

It’s all part of living in Guyland : http://www.guyland.net/

Comment #183: Randomizer  on  12/16  at  12:57 PM

DTG…Men are brought up to be violent, use violence to dominate, and it’s no surprise if the chickens come home to roost. Otherwise…you do realize that there are more women than men in the US, so what are the actual numbers?

Total Murders in the United States In 2005:

Male victims: 13,122
Female victims: 3,545

The crime stats I cited are based on the 2005 figures, but the trend has been very consistent over the last 30 years, so there’s no reason to believe they are substanially different today than they were three years ago.  I stated that men are three times as likely to be murdered as women.  I was wrong about that figure… they are actually FOUR times as likely to be murdered as women.  Women make up about 51% of the population, and men about 49%, so the percentage of males murdered relative to the total number of males is actually higher than it would be if men made up 51% of the total population.

Point being, murder is the one violent crime in which the odds of being a victim are substantially higher if you are a man than if you are a woman.

That said, you do raise the most important point about murder statistics as it relates to our patriarchal culture - men are roughly TEN times as likely to commit murder as women.  The fact that men are more likely to be murdered is absolutely a consequence of the machismo culture which glorifies violence in males.  Because overall, women aren’t a major cause of men (or women) being murdered in such disproportionately large numbers - other men are.

Comment #184: DTG in STL  on  12/16  at  12:58 PM

Being a young, white, upper-middle class, female teen came with the assumption that no one was going to hit me, even if I was saying something obnoxious.

I have to agree that this is your own personal safety bubble, not something class or gender related.  I grew up on the North Shore and first got punched by a boy when I was in grade school in Highland Park.  I was bullied by another girl at Libertyville High School and she picked an actual physical fight with me.  So it probably had more to do with your own social dynamics than a specific privilege of your background.

(For everyone else, I’m name-dropping because Caren will know exactly which suburbs those are and therefore how unprotected by class and race I was.)

Comment #185: Mnemosyne  on  12/16  at  01:09 PM

“That said, murder isn’t a crime that’s generally underreported in the way that rape and DV often are… it’s hard to murder someone without it being noticed and reported.”

I wouldn’t go that far.  It’s hard to disappear someone without it being noticed and reported…unless that woman is homeless, a sex worker, an addict, a migrant, etc.  Most jurisdictions can’t flag someone as dead in absentia without a body, other substantive proof that the person is dead, or a prolonged disappearance.  There’s no way in hell you’re getting a verdict of “homicide” without one of the first two.  Women on the missing persons list who are almost certainly murdered and buried in a shallow grave somewhere in a national park aren’t upping anyone’s stats.

Comment #186: preying mantis  on  12/16  at  01:11 PM

Cord does turn right around and use the patriarchy to shift blame from the men who hit him to his female friend for having a ‘privilege’ that wasn’t doing jack shit to protect her at the time.

And that’s why he’s getting bashed on the intertubes.  He started out with a good point asking why physical violence between men is so much more socially acceptable than physical violence by a man towards a woman but my god did he pick the worst possible example to make his case.

Comment #187: Mnemosyne  on  12/16  at  01:12 PM

Gypsie Lee at 181—Yep! That’s exactly what I was getting at.

Comment #188: Laurie  on  12/16  at  01:14 PM

DTG, I have to admit, I’m not quite getting what your point is with the murder statistics.  Men are much more likely to commit murder and to be murder victims than women are.  And?  That doesn’t have very much to do with the topic at hand, which is the claim that women have the social privilege to not be punched in the face by a stranger, which many women here are disputing from personal experience.

Comment #189: Mnemosyne  on  12/16  at  01:18 PM

I really only want to address the “once he jumped in, he can’t get angry at his friend” line waaaaaay up above.
Not addressing this particular case, but in general.  Jumping in to defend friends (of either sex - more often guy friends, actually) is so hammered into boys growing up that he doesn’t see that he has a choice at that point.  He steps into the situation knowing the odds are that he’s going to get the snot beat out him, and there’s just nothing he can do about it.  Frequently, you’ll be attacked just for being near the “target” based on the assumption that you’ll jump in to defend your friend, whether you would or not.
I actually ended up in such a situation; my friend and I got thumped.  The next day, I told him to just the f*ck out of my life, after the display the previous night, we’re done. (He REALLY asked for this fight and dragged me in quite against my will.)
Like I said, doesn’t apply to the specifics of this case, but you don’t forfeit your right to be angry about a situation just because you were “involved”.

Comment #190: Geeno  on  12/16  at  01:25 PM

“Like I said, doesn’t apply to the specifics of this case, but you don’t forfeit your right to be angry about a situation just because you were “involved”. “

Do you understand what you just did?  You use a personal situation that has fuck all to do with the situation in the post to explain why this douche is allowed to get mad at this woman for not doing what your friend did to you based on specious “guy code” that has fuck all to do with the woman involved.

That makes absolutely no sense.  I would have gotten pissed at your friend too.  This woman didn’t drag this Cord douche into the fight - HE CHOSE TO GET INVOLVED. Therefore, he has absolutely no right to get angry at her for what his choices got him.

This is “she asked for it” in a different suit.

Comment #191: Gypsy Lee  on  12/16  at  01:34 PM

I think Cord was indeed hurt by the patriarchy but not on the way he thought:

He was hurt by following its script : Apologizing for the woman he was with and stepping in front of her, he was playing the bullies’ game: Either they were looking for a fight with him and they got it by harassing “his” woman OR (most likely) they were thinking of sexually assaulting her (and her dumping the nachos was a call for help).

In the first case, he should´t have stepped in, because by doing it they got the target they wanted, and his girl friend could have got out with far less damage than him (I wouldn´t mind if a male friend of mine stayed out of a confrontation I´ve got myself into until it turned ugly, and many times if a bully doesn´t get a “worthy” target he just looks elsewhere).

In the second case he should have stepped in only after calling the police and/or got the waitstaff to go with him. Which would be what any woman would do if a female friend was harassed by three mean looking males, but at the same time is something that would make any sufficiently conditioned man feel like a coward.

It never hurts making a fuss about a potentially violent situation, and I would always err in the side of caution, asking for as much help as possible as soon as possible, but men are not supposed to do it.

To sum it up: If they weren´t very dangerous, his presence made it far worse than nacho throwing did. If they were, he needed help. But he rushed to the rescue because he was trained to act like that.

So did Cord get hurt by the patriarchy? Yes, but I don´t think he can really complain because he was playing by its rules.

Comment #192: Maria  on  12/16  at  01:35 PM

Mnemosyne, I think that DTG brought up the murder stats to take issue with this statement of mine:

“In my experience, women are subject to the types of violence that men are, plus female-specific types of violence.”

So, DTG found the one exception, even though the discussion is not in fact about murder.

FWIW, I was not talking about murder (which I think is higher in men because they are freer to move about the world and taught to be more violent). I was talking about fist fights, beatdown, the random punch in the face that people here seem to insist are not risks for girls and women.

The idea that only boys learn that you better be ready to “back up” your words (or just your existence, for some of us) with blows is false as well.

I was first punched by a boy when I was 4 (I refused to “show him mine”), and kindergarten involved a months-long showdown with three boys who didn’t think I should be entitled to eat my lunch on the grass like boys did (the girls were pushed to the edges of the playground—it’s a common pattern).

Here’s the point: the last time they attacked me, not only did they jump me and beat me up, they ripped off my top, as well—a gendered sort of violence on top of the beatdown. In order to stand my ground I had to wear my jacket for the rest of the day, but I did stand my ground, while the boys were sent home. After that, they backed off and I ate my lunch where I damn pleased.

Refusing to cede territory to a bully and fighting to defend yourself and your dignity are not just “boy” things. A number of people in this thread are unaware of that.

Comment #193: psammead0804  on  12/16  at  01:43 PM

“That said, murder isn’t a crime that’s generally underreported in the way that rape and DV often are… it’s hard to murder someone without it being noticed and reported.”

I wouldn’t go that far.  It’s hard to disappear someone without it being noticed and reported…unless that woman is homeless, a sex worker, an addict, a migrant, etc.  Most jurisdictions can’t flag someone as dead in absentia without a body, other substantive proof that the person is dead, or a prolonged disappearance.  There’s no way in hell you’re getting a verdict of “homicide” without one of the first two.  Women on the missing persons list who are almost certainly murdered and buried in a shallow grave somewhere in a national park aren’t upping anyone’s stats.

OK, I might have overstated, but the point is, I doubt murders are being underreported at anywhere near the rate of other violent crimes like rape or DV.

And the FBI stats aren’t based on convictions, they are based on the occurence of crimes.  A murder does not need to have a convicted or even identified perpetrator to be classified as a murder.  When a body gets found, and the cause of death was forensically determined to be homicide, a criminal conviction isn’t necessary for it to be recorded as a murder.  Nobody has ever been criminally convicted for the murders of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman, for instance… but their deaths have still been reported as murders, and they would have been counted among the FBI’s total number of murders that occurred in 1994.

The only cases in which a murder wouldn’t be reported as such is when no body is recovered, and when a police investigation fails to conclusively determine the person’s whereabouts.

In the case of homeless people who are murdered and whose bodies are never discovered and whose disappearances are never reported, obviously they don’t show up in the statistics.  But I don’t think that’s necessarily a substantially huge number of people.

In the case in which the body of a homeless person or sex worker is discovered and the police determine the cause of death as homicide, it is recorded as such, even if the victim or perpetrator are never identified.

My original point was this… it’s a hell of a lot easier to rape someone or domestically assault someone and get away with or cover up the crime than it is to murder someone and cover up the crime.  More often than not it’s because most murderers wind up telling someone, because killing another human being is a pretty huge psychological burden for most people to bear in secret for a whole lifetime.  And since there is no statute of limitations on prosecuting murderers, once the confession has been made and the perp has been reported to police, the crime will absolutely be recorded into the stats, if it wasn’t already at the time they committed the murder.  Obviously there are exceptions, but as rule, most murderers wind up confessing themselves sooner or later to someone.  And more often than not, the person they tell is likely to turn the murderer in, even if it is their own spouse, parent, sibling, or best friend.  Because not turning in a known murderer is itself a pretty serious felony.

Anyway, your point that some murders never get reported is of course valid… I just don’t think the percentage of underreported murders is anything like the percentage of other underreported violent crimes.

Comment #194: DTG in STL  on  12/16  at  01:49 PM

Are you also saying there is not time between the first punch and the deadly stuff for a friend or bystander to go, whoa, this is getting out of hand and jump in/call the cops?

Some race/class privilege here is showing as depending on the race/class of the caller/victims and/or the area….calling the cops may not only not help…but also escalate the situation to no one’s benefit, especially the victims.  Also…one cannot be sure that the muscleheads are not friends of the local police or worse…police officers themselves, especially in some areas of the US.  rolleyes

There’s a reason why many POC/working class don’t trust cops and never call them in situations like this….

Because I’ve been told, from a very young age, that I’m supposed to. That it is my job to defend friends, to keep them out of trouble and, if necessary, to fight by their sides.

The definition of an actual friend as opposed to “fair-weathered friends” are ones where we all have each other’s back….especially in situations where the chips are down like this one.  Of course, this also obligates me and other friends to avoid putting ourselves into those situations….though the focus of this attitude should mainly be focused on one’s own conduct.

As for this case, this dude was not only a douche for blaming his female friend for his being punched, but also THE WAY he went about “deescalating” the situation.  She was well within her rights to stand up and do what she did and shouldn’t be blamed for escalation as tossing chips/drinks on someone is not remotely in the same league as sexual assault/battery. 

Apologizing for the behavior of your friend when it is obvious the situation was provoked by 3 muscleheads is not only less than upstanding behavior in itself by putting his friend in a negative light…...it is also a very poor strategy as it will often be interpreted as weakness exhibited by a sniveling coward and a signal for them to further escalate/push.  In fact, it is no better than a twisted variant of the atrocious advice often given to bullying victims to “turn the other cheek” and to “ignore it and it will go away”.  It would have been much better for him to use his quiet presence and/or figure out/implement a quick & quiet exit strategy for the both of them.

Comment #195: exholt  on  12/16  at  01:53 PM

exholt:

Some race/class privilege here is showing as depending on the race/class of the caller/victims and/or the area….calling the cops may not only not help…but also escalate the situation to no one’s benefit, especially the victims.  Also…one cannot be sure that the muscleheads are not friends of the local police or worse…police officers themselves, especially in some areas of the US.  rolleyes

There’s a reason why many POC/working class don’t trust cops and never call them in situations like this….

This, thrice.

I don’t post there any more but Radley Balko’s constant eye on exactly that sort of police misconduct makes theagitator.com well worth a read.

Comment #196: seeker6079  on  12/16  at  01:57 PM

There’s a fairly sizable grain of truth in there, but the guy’s so stuck on blaming women for his problems he can’t find it. But yes, it is absolutely true that, in a Patriarchal society, men face types of violence that women don’t (at least more often). And taking that seriously as a problem shouldn’t entail dismissing violence against women (which is often a lot more targeted, ongoing, and traumatic). But yes, sometimes being a man in our society is terrifying. When some guy steps out of a bar and tries to pick a fight with you, that’s a scary situation. When someone throws something out of a car at you or shouts a threat, and you don’t know if they’re just going to drive away or come back, that’s a scary situation. When the police stop you because they view you as threat for walking home through the wrong area, that’s a scary situation. These are all situations I’ve been in.

These are gendered situations, and feminism can help me to understand why they occur. I don’t need to be dismissive of violence against women to do that - indeed, to fight this kind of violence against men we NEED to fight violence against women, because it’s the same culture that creates it (and, I suspect, many of the same men that perpetrate it).

To go way up to the top of the thread, I want to address this idea, which has popped up a few times in the thread:

Um, who is he to apologize on her behalf?  Her owner?  What a douche.

More likely, he was someone who was really scared the situation was going to turn violent, and trying to diffuse it. Based on his story, I have trouble faulting him for doing what he did at the time. He could have been smarter about it, but you know, when situations like that happen we aren’t always thinking straight.

If I’m in a situation where I think someone is about to kick my ass, I might apologize on someone else’s behalf (for something they may not need to apologize for, even) to get out of the situation. If that makes me a douche, I’d love for someone to explain why to me. The problem is the way he reacted afterward, blaming his friend instead of the idiots who punched him, not having the temerity to try to step in and defuse the situation.

When you get into a situation like that, usually the smart thing to do is to try to de-escalate. I lied through my teeth once to stroke the ego of a guy who pulled a knife on me once. The end result was me not getting stabbed and I’m pretty happy about that. I’m pretty sure I probably “agreed” with him about some sexist and homophobic things to calm him down (someone nearby had called him a “fag”). I don’t regret that in the slightest bit.

Comment #197: HonestB  on  12/16  at  02:05 PM

DTG, the murder statistics are woefully incomplete without also listing the race of murder victims. which leads to the question of why white women are told not to go out alone at night. which leads to the question of the real (as opposed to imagined) risks any woman faces when she is alone.

Comment #198: cj  on  12/16  at  02:06 PM

DTG, I have to admit, I’m not quite getting what your point is with the murder statistics.  Men are much more likely to commit murder and to be murder victims than women are.  And?  That doesn’t have very much to do with the topic at hand, which is the claim that women have the social privilege to not be punched in the face by a stranger, which many women here are disputing from personal experience.

I think it was originally based on the debate over whether or not a woman was more or less likely to get physically (but not sexually) assaulted in a public place by a stranger than a man.  The claim was made that not only was a woman just as likely to have that happen, but additionally that women were just as statistically likely to be victims of all of the types of violent crimes that men suffer, in addition to being more likely to be victims of sexual assault and domestic violence.

I agreed that as a whole, women are far more likely to be victims of violent crimes than men, but I also pointed out that there was one type of violent crime in which men actually were statistically more likely to be victims than women - murder.  There’s absolutely no disputing the fact that most violence of any type against females is perpetrated by males, and most violence of any type against males is also perpetrated by males.  There’s also no question as to who is more frequently victimized by male violence in general - women.  Males are without a doubt, far, far, far more frequently the perpetrators of violence than women, and this is directly a consequence of patriarchal society.  But in the case of homicide, and perhaps only homicide, one’s odds of being a victim are actually higher if they are male.  Why that is the case or what that implies, I do not know.  But it is what it is.

Comment #199: DTG in STL  on  12/16  at  02:08 PM

you don’t forfeit your right to be angry about a situation just because you were “involved”.

Of course not.  It is situation-dependent.  In this case, deciding to step into the middle of a high-stress situation and try to play peacemaker carries with it the chance you’ll get beat up; and Cord did.  That wasn’t his friend’s fault, and he never said he blamed her.

The feminists on here are trying to say that when Cord says at the end of his piece “I know the guy wouldn’t have hit me if I was a woman” he’s blaming his friend for him getting hit.  I and others are trying to point out that he’s not, he’s just stating what he sees as an objective truth unrelated to the situation.  I can see a feminist argument for that objective truth being in fact symbolic of patriarchy, which I think is what Amanda was going for by trying to tie in chivalry and saying that Cord’s real (if unstated) complaint was that the friend created the situation of needing to be rescued by a man who was then vulnerable to being hit (I also think it’s a real stretch to try to extrapolate Cord’s simple, direct statement into that meaning); but the “feminist alternative” then as I see it would be for men to just let women fight their own battles and take their own beatings, and I’m sorry but as a human being I’m not going to stand by and let a woman (especially a friend) get beat up by a bunch of drunken thugs.  Call that misplaced chivalry if you will, I call it standing by a friend in danger.  If feminism is asking me to let women and friends get beat up…I think that’s hard to argue. 

The Cord-accusers new argument seems to be that the real issue is the patriarchy that allowed the drunken thugs to feel entitled to harass and threaten the female friend.  I eagerly await feminism’s elimination of drunken assholery, perhaps by some kind of eugenics program or a new attempt at Prohibition (no drunks, no drunk assholes).  It doesn’t take patriarchy for guys to get liquored up and harass women.  And if the argument is that if all men were just feminists then there wouldn’t be harassment…I guess I’d have to agree but I wonder how that’s going to happen.

Comment #200: liberalrob  on  12/16  at  02:13 PM

I don’t know about this “female privilege” that people are talking about.  I’ve been slugged twice by dudes.  Once for yelling at a dude, and another time for opening the window in my friend’s dorm room when he didn’t want it opened.  And my “female privilege” was that I wasn’t strong enough to defend myself against them.

Where’s my magical bubble of protection from being hit?

Comment #201: leedevious  on  12/16  at  02:16 PM

Based on his story, I have trouble faulting him for doing what he did at the time. He could have been smarter about it, but you know, when situations like that happen we aren’t always thinking straight.

I think the only fault I can see in the moment was turning his back on the guys and giving them an opportunity to sucker-punch him, but in a way I think that happened because he did have that weird interpretation in his head that he was breaking up a bar fight and really didn’t understand the dynamics of what he was getting himself into.  For which, again, I Blame the Patriarchy.

Comment #202: Mnemosyne  on  12/16  at  02:19 PM

As for this case, this dude was not only a douche for blaming his female friend for his being punched

exholt, where in his piece did he say that.

I think we all agree that he went about his “rescue” in a, ahem, “less than optimal” manner.

Comment #203: liberalrob  on  12/16  at  02:20 PM

the guy’s so stuck on blaming women for his problems

Where does he do that, HonestB?

Comment #204: liberalrob  on  12/16  at  02:26 PM

The feminists on here are trying to say that when Cord says at the end of his piece “I know the guy wouldn’t have hit me if I was a woman” he’s blaming his friend for him getting hit.  I and others are trying to point out that he’s not, he’s just stating what he sees as an objective truth unrelated to the situation.

It’s that “unrelated to the situation” part that’s the sticking point.  As I and others have said, the problem here seems to be that Cord completely misread the situation that he was interrupting.  He was thinking of it like it was the kind of bar fight that a male friend of his would get into, and he tried to handle it from that perspective.  What he was actually interrupting was a sexual assault in progress, which does not and should not get handled the same way you would if your friend steps on the toe of some hotheaded guy in a bar.

He seems to think that those guys would have punched his friend in the face instead of him if he hadn’t intervened.  And that’s possible, but they would have done in in the course of sexually assaulting her, not as a fistfight.  He misinterpreted her dumping of the nachos on the guy as escalating a fistfight situation instead of what it was, a defensive move.

Cord looked at the situation through a male viewpoint—someone is trying to pick a fight with my friend, gotta back up my friend—and got himself KO’d because that wasn’t what was going on.  He didn’t get punched because the guys didn’t want to punch a woman.  He got punched because he misunderstood what he was intervening in.  And then he acted like his friend had dragged him into a stupid bar fight against his will when she was actually being attacked.

Personally, I have no problem with the fact that he intervened.  If I’m being attacked by three guys, I sure as hell hope my friends will intervene.  But this is not—repeat, not—the same kind of fight as is seen in the video above and to equate the two is to completely misunderstand the difference between male-on-male violence and male-on-female violence.

Comment #205: Mnemosyne  on  12/16  at  02:35 PM

DTG, the murder statistics are woefully incomplete without also listing the race of murder victims.

The most likely victim of murder in America is and always has been black males.

From 1976-2005, 46.9% of victims were African-American, and 50.9% were white.  The remaining 2.1% were people of other races.

That said, when it’s taken into account that there have been nearly five times as many whites (I believe that Hispanics are classified as white for FBI crime data) as African-Americans in America over this time period, the disproportionality is staggering.

African-Americans are SIX TIMES as likely to be murder victims as whites, but they are also seven times as likely to be perpetrators as whites (granted, this figure doesn’t classify Dick Cheney and his neocon brothers as murderers, or else the stat would be dramatically different).

And, contrary to racist tropes put forth by the reichwing, the vast majority of murders occur within races… most white are murdered by other whites (86%), and most blacks are murdered by other blacks (94%).

Here’s a link to U.S. DoJ website on homicide stats... it includes cross-tabs for just about every imagineable statistical breakdown (gender, race, class, age, relationship, weapon, circumstances) of victims and perpetrators from 1976-2005.

Comment #206: DTG in STL  on  12/16  at  02:36 PM

exholt, where in his piece did he say that.

I think we all agree that he went about his “rescue” in a, ahem, “less than optimal” manner.

By immediately apologizing to the 3 muscleheads right after she dumped the nachos, the whole “Woe is me” vibe of the article, and the disturbing fact the focus seems to be severely lacking on the truly blameworthy…the 3 muscleheads. 

Whether he meant to or not, the fact he would even think to put his friend in a bad light by apologizing for completely justified conduct…especially when he didn’t see how the situation has developed….is a strong indication that he may have believed his friend to be responsible…even subconsciously…as well as being extremely naive in believing making apologies like that would calm things down and not be interpreted as the behavior of a sniveling coward and a signal to escalate/push further.  If he attempted to do that with the local neighborhood bullies of my childhood in a similar situation, they’d feel “He’s askin’ for it” with that behavior right before they start the beatdown of him and/or the friend.

Comment #207: exholt  on  12/16  at  02:37 PM

Oh goodie, it must be “you must educate liberal rob you silly overreatcing bitchez day” again.  Whoopie!

Comment #208: Gypsy Lee  on  12/16  at  02:41 PM

When some guy steps out of a bar and tries to pick a fight with you, that’s a scary situation. When someone throws something out of a car at you or shouts a threat, and you don’t know if they’re just going to drive away or come back, that’s a scary situation. When the police stop you because they view you as threat for walking home through the wrong area, that’s a scary situation. These are all situations I’ve been in.

Only the last example is gendered, though, and even then, race factors in. Women of color are absolutely detained by police for being black in public at night. Quite a few women in this thread are saying, repeatedly, that threats of the types you describe are not reserved for men.

Comment #209: psammead0804  on  12/16  at  02:45 PM

“And the FBI stats aren’t based on convictions, they are based on the occurence of crimes.  A murder does not need to have a convicted or even identified perpetrator to be classified as a murder.  When a body gets found, and the cause of death was forensically determined to be homicide, a criminal conviction isn’t necessary for it to be recorded as a murder.”

Hence the statement “There’s no way in hell you’re getting a verdict of “homicide” without one of the first two.”.  Even if everybody knows the woman with the abusive husband didn’t just up and leave without taking her kids, her car, or any of her clothes, you’re not getting to “murder victim” in any official way—statistics, death certificate, insurance payout, etc.—until someone finds fairly compelling evidence that she’s dead and got that way because of another person.  That’s way before you even get into who did it.

Comment #210: preying mantis  on  12/16  at  02:46 PM

If I’m being attacked by three guys, I sure as hell hope my friends will intervene.

I sure hope so….and without immediately publicly declaring I was to blame for the situation to the aggressor(s)...especially if s(he) didn’t see enough of the situation to know what actually happened.  Not only is it ineffective and the equivalent of waving a piece of cloth in front of an angry bull*, but it also shows that “friend” sees you in a negative light in some way when there was no way for him/her to fully size up the situation to do that with any justice….and that’s not the behavior of a friend in my book. 

* Most people would say waving a red piece of cloth…but I heard bulls are actually colorblind and are responding to the motion of the cloth….

Comment #211: exholt  on  12/16  at  02:46 PM

“Quite a few women in this thread are saying, repeatedly, that threats of the types you describe are not reserved for men. “

Clearly us silly girls need a man to tell these dudes that it happens to women too.  Then, they might actually LISTEN.

Comment #212: Gypsy Lee  on  12/16  at  02:53 PM

Amanda wrote:

But as these examples show, it’s a poor substitute for a feminist approach, where men work hard at treating women like they’re full human being who deserve that level of respect, even if every sector of society is screaming about their inferiority.  Truly respecting women hard work.

Is it too much to ask that you treat men with respect, Amanda?  What’s with all the caveman talk (see words in bold, quoted above)?

Amanda also wrote:

“Never hit a woman” doesn’t really do much to address the underlying cause of violence against women, which is male dominance and misogyny.</strong>
Can you back that up with objective psychological evidence, rather than your pet theories on gender and oppression?

Violent behavior is primarily a mental health issue, and (depending on the individual) an issue of attitudes only secondarily.  You cannot effectively assist someone with a personality disorder, or poor conflict resolution skills, by bombarding them with ideology about how they are a sexist bigot and merely need thought reform.

People who are generally violent can be violent against women.  If your recommendation is for them to interpret their violence against both men and women as merely misogynistic, then you’re denigrating the seriousness of victimization by anyone but women.

Let me enlighten you with some facts, as quoted from Richard B. Felson, PhD, of Pennsylvania State University (Published in the journal Partner Abuse, Vol. 1, No. 1, 2010):

<blockquote>Is violence against intimate partners different from other forms of violence? Do we need special theories to understand it? Should the study of violence against women be segregated from the study of violence? One way to find out is to compare intimate partner violence (IPV) and violence against women to other forms of violence to see how they are different. For example, according to conventional wisdom, we have high rates of male violence against women, particularly against their intimate partners. In my work, I have asked: compared to what? Consider these facts:

1. Men are more likely to be victims of all forms of violence than women, particularly serious violence. Women make up 19% of homicide victims, 34.7% of aggravated assault victims, and 42.6% of victims of simple assault (Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1997). These statistics show that the more serious the physical assault, the less likely it is for the victim to be female.

2. Women are more likely to be injured by their partners than men are, but their injuries tend to be less serious (Archer, 2002; Dutton & Nicholls, 2005; Felson & Cares, 2005; Straus, 1999).

3. While men are eight times more likely to commit violence than women outside the family, they are no more likely than women to use violence against their intimate partners (Archer, 2000; Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1997; Straus, 1993).

4. Only about 20% of violent crimes against women are committed by their partners, while 34% of violent crimes are committed by friends or acquaintances and 38% by strangers (Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1997). Similarly, only 31% of “femicides” are committed by partners. Our stereotypical image of the nature of violence against women as an assault committed by a male partner is inaccurate.

These comparisons elicit such questions as: Why are women less likely to be victims of violence than men, when they are physically weaker than men and therefore more vulnerable? Why are men and women equally likely to hit their spouses when men are much more violent outside the family? Why don’t men hit their wives more often than they do, given gender differences in size and the tendency to use violence? The first step in understanding IPV is to ask the right questions.

Comment #213: John_Dias  on  12/16  at  02:58 PM

Oh, goody, we get to play with a full-on MRA troll now.

Why are men and women equally likely to hit their spouses when men are much more violent outside the family?

I love when people demand that we “explain” things that they’re out-and-out lying about.  Next up, he will demand that we “explain” why they keep teaching evolution in schools when he has studies proving that it’s all fake.

Comment #214: Mnemosyne  on  12/16  at  03:04 PM

Oh goodie, it must be “you must educate liberal rob you silly overreatcing bitchez day” again.  Whoopie!

Isn’t that every day?

Comment #215: BlackBloc  on  12/16  at  03:04 PM

DTG, I would like to take issue with your conclusion regarding the likelihood of being subject to violence. You seem to be arguing (correct me if I’ve misconstrued it) that there is one type of violence (i.e. murder) which you are more likely to be on the receiving end of if you are male. But I don’t think we can conclude this just from analyzing the murder statistics in the way that you’ve presented them because we have no context in which to place these murders. The relevant information here would need to be at least some statistics on socioeconomic class and race; without that, I don’t think you can simply conclude that all men are more likely to be murdered than all women.

It’s like another commenter above mentioned: because I live a fairly staid life, I have the illusion of safety, but I don’t think it’s just an illusion. I really am less likely to experience any kind of violence simply because the life I live (grad student) doesn’t usually have any. It doesn’t hurt either that I’m 6’2” and don’t look like a good target for mugging, so in this case being male almost certainly helps me avoid violence. I’d bet that if we broke down those FBI statistics in detail, we’d find that both the murderers and the murdered are predominantly on the lower end of the socioeconomic ladder. On the other hand, I would suspect that something like domestic violence is distributed with more equity across classes. That’s not an analysis I’ve done, but it’s one that would be necessary to do to see if the hypothesis that DTG propose is right (which I suspect it’s not).

Comment #216: Jerry Vinokurov  on  12/16  at  03:04 PM

And if the argument is that if all men were just feminists then there wouldn’t be harassment…I guess I’d have to agree but I wonder how that’s going to happen.

I don’t know. I imagine it might become more likely if people like you didn’t just throw up your hands/stick your fingers in your ears and go “LALALALALALA no patriarchy here, nossir! Certainly there’s nothing I, liberalrob, can do to teach my fellow dudez about not sucking at life!”

But I’m sure eventually we’ll come up with a solution that doesn’t require any work from you.

Comment #217: Well, what?  on  12/16  at  03:06 PM

@Gypsy Lee: after my last comment I realized that, heck, even I have been detained by police for being out at night, so while it’s way worse for WOC, it happens all over.

Some Chicago cops stopped me on my home from a dinner out at 11PM: “Do you have drugs?...you look like you do”. This was followed by a pat-down (no, they didn’t call a female officer to do that, as the law requires—why do you ask?). If I had resisted this “pat-down” (groping) I would most likely have been arrested.

And I’ve led a pretty sheltered, safe life. So yeah, this stuff is not reserved for men.

Comment #218: psammead0804  on  12/16  at  03:09 PM

Oh goodie, it must be “you must educate liberal rob you silly overreatcing bitchez day” again.  Whoopie!

It’s entirely up to you and everyone else whether to respond to my comments or not.  Do as you will.  I don’t consider you “overreaching bitchez.”  I’m exploring your philosophy and expanding my horizons.

Isn’t that every day?

Damn straight it is, Blackbloc.  I wouldn’t subject myself to Internet discussions if I already knew everything.

I’m sure eventually we’ll come up with a solution that doesn’t require any work from you.

Don’t worry about me, WW, worry about those drunk guys that sucker-punched Cord Jefferson.  Educate them about how they’re being misogynist tools of the patriarchy and see what it gets you.  Then come lecture me about effectiveness.

I think I am doing work.  I’m making you think about your arguments, so you can make them better.  You think that’s easy?  Easy is crap like what Gypsy Lee just did, making a dismissive personal attack.  It’s a lot harder to try to explain flaws in someone’s linking chivalry to patriarchy based on what I see as a flawed and incorrectly interpolated reading of an article.

Comment #219: liberalrob  on  12/16  at  03:33 PM

“Oh, goody, we get to play with a full-on MRA troll now. ” 

Don’t you love the minimizing language too:  “less severe” “only 31%”, etc.  What are you crazy bitches complaining about?  We’re lucky they don’t kill more of us!

LOL. $10 says Mr. Dias has DV priors.

Comment #220: Gypsy Lee  on  12/16  at  03:38 PM

“Easy is crap like what Gypsy Lee just did, making a dismissive personal attack. “

Translation:  I called liberal rob out on asking the same question multiple times implying that we all just made it up, after it had already been explained. 

So naturally, that’s a personal attack in “everything must be about ME!” land.

Comment #221: Gypsy Lee  on  12/16  at  03:41 PM

“Like I said, doesn’t apply to the specifics of this case, but you don’t forfeit your right to be angry about a situation just because you were “involved”. “

Do you understand what you just did?  You use a personal situation that has fuck all to do with the situation in the post to explain why this douche is allowed to get mad at this woman for not doing what your friend did to you based on specious “guy code” that has fuck all to do with the woman involved.

That makes absolutely no sense.  I would have gotten pissed at your friend too.  This woman didn’t drag this Cord douche into the fight - HE CHOSE TO GET INVOLVED. Therefore, he has absolutely no right to get angry at her for what his choices got him.

This is “she asked for it” in a different suit.

Huh?
I said it didn’t really apply to this.  Someone upthread (like in the first 10-20) had basically said that once you jump in on someone’s side, you forfeit your right to be angry at them, because now it’s your decision.  I was simply pointing out that that isn’t necessarily true even if it IS arguably true in this particular case.

Comment #222: Geeno  on  12/16  at  03:44 PM

DTG, I would like to take issue with your conclusion regarding the likelihood of being subject to violence. You seem to be arguing (correct me if I’ve misconstrued it) that there is one type of violence (i.e. murder) which you are more likely to be on the receiving end of if you are male. But I don’t think we can conclude this just from analyzing the murder statistics in the way that you’ve presented them because we have no context in which to place these murders. The relevant information here would need to be at least some statistics on socioeconomic class and race; without that, I don’t think you can simply conclude that all men are more likely to be murdered than all women.

Well, I’m not sure what precisely you are looking for…

Is a poor black woman more likely to be murdered than a rich white man?

I’m fairly sure that’s probably true, though I haven’t analyzed the statistics down to that micro-level to know the exact likelihoods involved.

All I pointed out was the raw data, and the percentages.  In 2005, 9 males were murdered for every 100,000 males in the U.S. population.  That same year, 2.3 females were murdered for every 100,000 females in the U.S. population.  That’s only breaking down the data along gender lines, and nothing else - those numbers don’t separate out race or socioeconomic class or any other criteria.

According to the exact phrasing on the Homicide Trends in the U.S. report on the DoJ’s website:

“Males were almost 4 times more likely than females to be murdered in 2005.”

That’s the precise verbiage they used in characterizing the difference in murder rates across gender lines.  Obviously, being poor and/or a POC increases the likelihood that one would be a murder victim compared to being white and/or middle or upper class.

The statement that men are four times as likely to be murdered may not apply to you specifically, depending on what racial and socioeconomic groups you belong to… though I imagine that if you are a poor black male, the odds of you being murdered are even higher than the “four times as likely” figure applied generically to all males across racial and socioeconomic lines.

Comment #223: DTG in STL  on  12/16  at  04:03 PM

I guess I’m arguing that “Four times as many men as women are murdered” doesn’t necessarily translate to “your odds of being murdered if you are a man are four times as high as if you are a woman.” The first is a descriptive statement that aggregates all total murders; the second is an evaluative conclusion regarding specific odds of these things happening, which I don’t think is quite supported by the first statement. My point is that I don’t think we can infer that kind of broad conclusion (being male = 4x chance of getting murdered) from that premise.

Comment #224: Jerry Vinokurov  on  12/16  at  04:08 PM

psammead. Indeed everyone does have different experiences.  Ive spoken with my friends over the years about this and none of my girl or then women friends have expressed a ton of experience with what i’ll call street violence. Of course behind a door or at home is a completely different story. Perhaps I was universalizing my experience too much but Ive been in countless fights, been to the hospital, put people in the hospital all while, at least from age 20 on, trying my utmost to avoid conflict.  I could not have acted any different than the guy in this story did, I would have apologized, I would have even insulted/put down my female friend if I thought it might help avoid conflict. The only people Ive seen who dont try and wind things down are people who like to fight, are in love with how clever they are or feel they have enough backup.

Also in that last example being gendered, I think its also class based and heavily so.

Lastly for me, someone mentioned bullying. “2. Bullying. Every thread we’ve had on bullying, all the anecdotes come down to one thing. Bullies continue attacking weak targets. Bullies can be scared or hurt into retreat. “

This is absolute bullshit. It sounds a bit like afterschool special wishful thinking. Sure bullies will take on weak targets but theyll also take on targets -because- they are strong. I was a bully most of my youth, mostly in a way to kind of preemptively attack before my speech impediment could be made fun of then it became who i was.  Bullies cannot be scared or hurt into retreat. You run across the 17-year old version of me or a lot of people i knew and think you could “pop me one” and id turn around and run? Not a chance, being raised in this culture, the patriarchy as strong as ever, you think a truly strong male whos getting all kinds of affirmation is ever going to be run off? Im sorry this just really gets to me, ive seen a lot of folks get hurt trying to stand up to a bully. I dont know what the answer is but its sure as hell not scaring them. you never know if youve got the blowhard on your hands or the sadistic asshole.

Comment #225: dan&danica;  on  12/16  at  04:10 PM

“I said it didn’t really apply to this.”

Yes, and then went on to explain why he did have a right to angry at her for being harassed and not taking it. (“Like I said, doesn’t apply to the specifics of this case, but you don’t forfeit your right to be angry about a situation just because you were “involved”.)

He has no right to be angry at her because he chose to intervene.  Your experience has nothing to do with the topic, but you used it to justify HIS actions.  No.

++

“Ive spoken with my friends over the years about this and none of my girl or then women friends have expressed a ton of experience with what i’ll call street violence.”

Might this possibly be because they a) don’t want to talk about it or b) don’t want to talk about it *with you*? 

I.e.,  several of my friends have been victims of rape/sexual assault.  Yet, I’ve heard our mutual male friends confidently tell other people that they know no women who have been.  it doesn’t seem to occur to them that women don’t tell them everything - esp if they know they will just be dismissed, minimized, ignored or blamed.

Comment #226: Gypsy Lee  on  12/16  at  04:16 PM

Hence the statement “There’s no way in hell you’re getting a verdict of “homicide” without one of the first two.”.  Even if everybody knows the woman with the abusive husband didn’t just up and leave without taking her kids, her car, or any of her clothes, you’re not getting to “murder victim” in any official way—statistics, death certificate, insurance payout, etc.—until someone finds fairly compelling evidence that she’s dead and got that way because of another person.  That’s way before you even get into who did it.

And as I stated before, yes, bodies do “disappear” and those bodies don’t get figured into the stats, and thus, of course there is some underreporting on the actual figures.  As is the case with underreporting on just about every large scale statistical report in existence.  We never know precisely how many Americans there are after the Census, but that doesn’t mean that it is wildly inaccurate to say that there are roughly 307 Million people in America right now, even if we know that isn’t the precise number.

My only contention is that I don’t think underreporting of homicide is nearly as rampant as it is with many other crimes - that the homicide stats are probably much closer to the actual number of homicides than rape stats are close to the actual number of rapes.  It’s much harder to hide a body than it is to intimidate or shame a woman into not reporting a rape.

Comment #227: DTG in STL  on  12/16  at  04:17 PM

I guess I’m arguing that “Four times as many men as women are murdered” doesn’t necessarily translate to “your odds of being murdered if you are a man are four times as high as if you are a woman.” The first is a descriptive statement that aggregates all total murders; the second is an evaluative conclusion regarding specific odds of these things happening, which I don’t think is quite supported by the first statement. My point is that I don’t think we can infer that kind of broad conclusion (being male = 4x chance of getting murdered) from that premise.

OK, that’s a fair assessment.  Yes, race and class absolutely factor in.  If you are a middle-class white guy, those odds almost assuredly aren’t the same as if you are a poor black male or even necessarily a poor white female.

Comment #228: DTG in STL  on  12/16  at  04:21 PM

Yes, most definitely Gypsy Lee. I’ve been in the house when the cops were called, seen DV happen before my eyes, seen the immediate after effects and I know what I’ve seen only begins to scratch the surface. Many of my female friends have confided in me, to begin with my mother who was sexually abused her whole childhood and raped throughout her first marriage. Again that knowledge is but a tiny fraction of what the women around me have experienced, from the catcalls, gropes, rapes they have told me about to the probably 98% of stuff they havent told me about. Im well aware of the stats and through reading your posts and reading pandagon and many of my other bookmarked sites like feministing, feministe, shakesville, ibtp and others ive learned over the years just how much is not being said.

With that, with what I called street violence, the levels my friends/wife have experienced seems to be a lot different. Perhaps its solely how they experience it is different or that combines with me universalizing how Ive experienced the world too much. Being picked out in a room because you look rough and ready and youre a big guy so a little guy wants a piece, perhaps thats no different than being picked out because youre the only woman or a woman doing something our society deems wrong. Just thought of that, I’ll need to mull it over. It occurs to me all the time that women hold back, dont tell special ol’ me everything. I pretty much check every privilege box their is, I dont count my speech impediment as a disability though some do. I struggle to fully realize/internalize how much my male, cis, class (lower middle to middle), size, etc privleges affect my thinking on this but I do see the street violence as something different and as with all things within the patriarchy, something no one “wins”. I just wish I could feel less compelled to violence, im tempted/confronted with it a lot and expected to be violent in a lot of these street violence scenarios (bar, club, show, etc).

the e key on my laptop is mostly broken, apologies if e is missing sometimes in my post.

Comment #229: dan&danica;  on  12/16  at  04:34 PM

didnt preview, i put their where it should be there, do that constantly for some reason

Comment #230: dan&danica;  on  12/16  at  04:36 PM

I read the post on Jez and thought that while there was a worthwhile discussion to be had there, he missed it. Commenters reacted to him with hostility in part because:

1) There’s an aggressive backlash to feminism that goes, “well, if you want equal rights, then you have to get your ass handed to you just like a man.” It’s amazing how men go right to talking about violence while acting as if women currently occupy a violence-free world. And Cord’s post, not being terribly clear, reminded a lot of people of that.

2) There’s a tendency, when men are the perpetrators in something, to lecture the women on how they need to change. It suggests that women are too dumb to understand how things are and it’s our responsibility to change them. Why didn’t Cord publish his post on a mostly-male site, since men are the ones implementing this unfair “can’t deck a woman” standard? No, no, much easier to lecture the privileged women.

3) The patriarchal standard of male ownership is what got him punched. The belief that Nacho Woman was his responsibility to subdue and control is what he needs to protest (beside the violence itself) and yet never does he seem aware of this, or its more insidious repercussions for women in different situations.

4) It’s always disheartening to see men get more passionate over the outrage over hurting a woman than about violence against women itself. For instance, I knew a lot of men who were so furious over those false rape accusations in the media earlier this fall - really emotional. And yet when the October gang rape in California happened, they just kind of said “that’s sick” and didn’t seem to feel the same level of outrage or horror.

I’ve been in situations where male friends have pleaded with me to not mouth off to some asshole who’s bothering me. On the one hand, I’m going to be pragmatic when it comes to violence. On the other, I wish they would realize my dignity has value too.

Comment #231: Veronica  on  12/16  at  04:44 PM

This is absolute bullshit. It sounds a bit like afterschool special wishful thinking. Sure bullies will take on weak targets but theyll also take on targets -because- they are strong. I was a bully most of my youth, mostly in a way to kind of preemptively attack before my speech impediment could be made fun of then it became who i was.  Bullies cannot be scared or hurt into retreat. You run across the 17-year old version of me or a lot of people i knew and think you could “pop me one” and id turn around and run?

You’re correct if they only get popped once. 

However, my experience has been that bullies WILL LEAVE YOU ALONE and even give you RESPECT if in standing up and fighting them that you clobber them so badly that it isn’t worth the pain and bloody injuries they incurred.  Heck, they’ve even respected kids who stood up for themselves even if they lost the fight so long as they maintained a stoic front…though I know this part is very unusual from what I’ve heard from others.  Stoning a bigger/stronger bully in second grade may not have been the idealistic solution, but it was what was needed for the bullies to stop seeing me as an easy target due to my size, young age, and ethnicity in elementary school.  Interestingly enough, they left me alone for the rest of my time there.  Also, girls did fight in my neighborhood….with two female classmates being suspended for 2 weeks for fighting it out viciously in a public park in sixth grade.  That’s been my experience growing up in a rough working-class NYC neighborhood during the 1980’s.

Comment #232: exholt  on  12/16  at  04:55 PM

“Being picked out in a room because you look rough and ready and youre a big guy so a little guy wants a piece, perhaps thats no different than being picked out because youre the only woman or a woman doing something our society deems wrong.”

I agree with this.  Given that my circle of friends includes several bouncers - big in multiple senses of the word, these guys - I’ve seen them be harassed by other guys looking to fight because that second guy is looking to prove something. 

This really isn’t too difference from picking harassed by some dude trying to pick me up, in terms of that guy trying to prove something with harassment. 

But there is a HUGE difference between what they can do about it and what I can do about it.  And when they get into a fight, no one blames them for protecting themselves.  No one tells them they should have been more meek, should have been silent, should have taken it.  They are not worried about being beaten up and then raped.

Comment #233: Gypsy Lee  on  12/16  at  05:04 PM

Translation:  I called liberal rob out on asking the same question multiple times implying that we all just made it up, after it had already been explained.

Your translator appears to be malfunctioning, Gypsy.  If I’m repetitive in my answers, it’s because I’m responding to comments which make the same arguments.  The explanation(s) were unpersuasive and based on what I consider a false premise.

Also, I’m not sure how sarcastically announcing that it’s “educate liberalrob day again” and leaving it at that is “calling me out.”  It is an attempt at embarrassing me in order to try to get me to go away, but that’s not the same thing; and as you see, it’s ineffective.

So naturally, that’s a personal attack in “everything must be about ME!” land.

Yep, can’t get much more personal than you did.  You used my name and everything.

Comment #234: liberalrob  on  12/16  at  05:20 PM

But yes, sometimes being a man in our society is terrifying. When some guy steps out of a bar and tries to pick a fight with you, that’s a scary situation. When someone throws something out of a car at you or shouts a threat, and you don’t know if they’re just going to drive away or come back, that’s a scary situation. When the police stop you because they view you as threat for walking home through the wrong area, that’s a scary situation. These are all situations I’ve been in.

HonestB, Honey, do you have mental problems or reading problems? Several women have refuted what you say here and backed it with personal experience.  None of these are wholy gendered.  None.  See leedevious, Gypsy Lee, psammead, etc.

Comment #235: helen w. h.  on  12/16  at  06:24 PM

A few random points (some of which have, I’m sure, been made already):

1. As he was just coming out of the bathroom when the nacho-dumping began, Cord had no way of really knowing what precipitated it. His friend might have dumped the nachos after a few rude comments, or she might have dumped the nachos after a series of increasingly vulgar/threatening comments that finally crossed a line. Was dumping nachos the best way to handle the situation? No, sure, but Cord has no way of knowing exactly how appropriate or inappropriate it really was. Because he wasn’t there.

2. Seeker (I think it was seeker) rightly said that the dumping of the nachos escalated the incident from verbal to physical. But I think we can all agree that there’s a difference between “lapful of queso” physical and “faceful of fist” physical. The difference is subjective, but it’s there. And if Cord’s friend was in the wrong for escalating it to the former kind of physical, we can’t pretend that it’s even a little excusable/explainable for the jerks to escalate it to the latter.

3. Cord (and we) has no way of knowing what would have happened if he hadn’t intervened. Maybe the jerks wouldn’t have hit his friend, because they don’t hit women, and thus his intervention got him hit. Maybe the jerks would have hit his friend, because they do hit women, and thus he took a punch on behalf of the friend. If the former, then it’s certainly a result of this concept of chivalry: his chivalry in jumping in and theirs in being willing to hit him when they wouldn’t have hit her.

4. Plenty of guys are willing to hit girls. My boyfriend (big, bald, intimidating guy) worked for quite some time as a bouncer, and he spent more time than he would have liked pulling a drunk guy off of his date. He and I have also discussed the reason that women make lousy bouncers: not because they can’t handle themselves but because they become immediate targets. A lot of guys see a strong, capable woman and immediately start betting on who can “take her.” In that respect, a big, meaty wall of a guy who’s never thrown a punch in his life is more effective than a small woman who’s a ninja, because he’s a deterrent and she’s a target.

Comment #236: ACG  on  12/16  at  06:25 PM

Finally getting around to responding to Mnemosyne at #205:
<blockaquote>Cord looked at the situation through a male viewpoint—someone is trying to pick a fight with my friend, gotta back up my friend—and got himself KO’d because that wasn’t what was going on.  He didn’t get punched because the guys didn’t want to punch a woman.  He got punched because he misunderstood what he was intervening in.  And then he acted like his friend had dragged him into a stupid bar fight against his will when she was actually being attacked.</blockquote>

At the risk of being repetitive, that last sentence is the one that’s my sticking point.  I don’t get that he felt he intervened against his will from reading his article.  If you’re basing that perception on how he went about trying to defuse the situation (apologizing to the guy, turning to tell his friend to be quiet), you might be right that he went about it in a particularly douchey way (why should his friend have been told to be quiet?  why apologize for her actions?  she was the victim here) but you’re mind-reading his motive based on assumptions not in evidence.  There have been points pro and con on his chosen method of “rescue.”  But that’s beside the point of his article, which is male on male violence being seen as more acceptable than male on female violence.  To try to construct an anti-feminist edifice around this shaky foundation, based on assumptions of his thought-process and cultural imperatives that might or might not have been in play, strikes me as misguided.

Comment #237: liberalrob  on  12/16  at  06:30 PM

I guess “blockaquote” isn’t valid HTML.

Comment #238: liberalrob  on  12/16  at  06:32 PM

I never thought it would make you go away neither did I think it would embarrass you, Rob.  It was a statement of exasperation that you repeatedly and in successive posts asked the a question at lest three times that was already dealt with. Notice, it was almost immediately agreed with.  No one is surprised that you think our exasperation with your self-obsession is a “false premise”.

We’re all well aware of how much you love to talk about yourself and make everything about yourself, as you’re doing now.  Again.

Comment #239: Gypsy Lee  on  12/16  at  06:34 PM

I think it’s bass-ackwards to define it in terms of female privilege. 
Boys do however learn at an early age that you don’t call another guy out unless you are willing to “back it up.” “You better be ready to back that up” is standard guytalk for “back up right now or the fight’s on!”
Bully’s, being cowards, know that they can get away with calling out a woman (harrassing, insulting, groping, etc.) without such a risk of a beat-down.
It’s all part of living in Guyland : http://www.guyland.net/
Comment #183: Randomizer on 12/16 at 10:57 AM

Randomizer, I think this is spot-on.  There’s no notice that this started with men provoking a woman, but a lot of notice that she “escalated” or “provoked” the guys into violence.

Comment #240: oldfeminist  on  12/16  at  06:39 PM

the “feminist alternative” then as I see it would be for men to just let women fight their own battles and take their own beatings, and I’m sorry but as a human being I’m not going to stand by and let a woman (especially a friend) get beat up by a bunch of drunken thugs. 
Comment #200: liberalrob on 12/16 at 12:13 PM

Why should they “take their own beatings,” when the code is that you help your male friends out if they’re in trouble? 

There’s nothing feminist about that at all. It’s pretty seriously misogynist.

Comment #241: oldfeminist  on  12/16  at  06:42 PM

My only contention is that I don’t think underreporting of homicide is nearly as rampant as it is with many other crimes - that the homicide stats are probably much closer to the actual number of homicides than rape stats are close to the actual number of rapes.  It’s much harder to hide a body than it is to intimidate or shame a woman into not reporting a rape.
Comment #227: DTG in STL on 12/16 at 02:17 PM

Check out the femicides of Ciudad Juarez, something I think other posters may have been alluding to.  Women who are poor, homeless, prostitutes, are easy victims that often never are missed, so there’s no report.  I agree it’s harder to hide a body than to keep someone quiet through intimidation, but it’s not unheard-of.

Also, I think a large percentage of male homicide victims (25 to 50 percent in some cities) are related to street drug trafficking or street crime, a heavily-male occupation.  The victim is a victim because they are in that job or a customer, not primarily because they are male and happen to be walking down the street. 

I’m not victim-blaming here, I’m saying this is far different from a bar brawl, where strangers meet, take a disliking to each other, and one ends up dead.  When it’s strangers, it’s strangers competing for something, whether it’s drug dealing territory or the contents of a wallet or cash register.  It’s not usually a random “I wanna kill someone tonight.”

Which is what the MRAs like to suggest is the case, that just being a man is so tough and hard and oh you can get killed so easily.  They’re doing different things than women, that’s why they’re getting hurt. 

Women are threatened with equivalent violence, plus sexual assault, for the same exposure level.  So they tend to stay off the streets more.  They are *more* vulnerable, and they know it, hence they protect themselves better.

Comment #242: oldfeminist  on  12/16  at  07:00 PM

No one is surprised that you think our exasperation with your self-obsession is a “false premise”.

That’s not the false premise I was talking about.  And I think your claim of “our exasperation with your self-obsession” is also a false premise.  I have never made this discussion about me.  But you’re rapidly pushing it that way.  You seem determined to make this discussion all about me for some reason.

We’re all well aware of how much you love to talk about yourself and make everything about yourself, as you’re doing now.  Again.

Are “we” now.  Explain how I’m making this discussion of Cord Jefferson’s article and misperceptions thereof all about me.

oldfeminist:

Why should they “take their own beatings,” when the code is that you help your male friends out if they’re in trouble?

They shouldn’t take their own beatings, which was exactly my point.  The code isn’t that “you help your male friends out,” it’s that you help your friends out regardless of gender, in fact especially if they are female.  Once again, at the risk of being repetitive:  what’s so un-feminist about going to the aid of a female friend in danger?  If you reject “the code” of chivalric action as tainted, what’s the alternative action?  Is chivalric action really incompatible with feminism, as Amanda seems to want to claim?

If you want to argue that the way Cord Jefferson went about his intervention was unfeminist, that’s one thing (we’ve seen points pro and con on that).  Amanda was trying to make a broader point about chivalric action in general, I thought.

Comment #243: liberalrob  on  12/16  at  07:36 PM

And, Cord Jefferson wasn’t trying to make any point about chivalric action at all; he was trying to make a point about violence towards men vs. violence towards women.  Amanda changed the subject slightly, there.

Comment #244: liberalrob  on  12/16  at  07:40 PM

There have been a lot of comments about how the woman throwing the nachos was unwise. Leaving aside the fact that she was threatened with violence first we don’t actually know that chucking the nachos _wasn’t_ the best way for the woman in this case to deal with the situation. Maybe she reckoned that the astonishment/discomfort/embarrassment that it would cause the man would buy her a little more time to try and get out of the situation, and made a rational decision to act in that way.

It might have been unwise. But we don’t _know_ that it was unwise. Maybe she was hoping that in the 30 seconds she bought the damn cashiers would call the police. Or she read that the next move was getting backed against the wall and assaulted, and throwing the nachos deflected the assault from sexual to a different kind of physical violence. If she thought that throwing the nachos would reduce her chances of sexual assault, far from being an escalation of the situation, it was actually a de-escalation.

(And I am once again amazed by the number of men who’ve never been in a serious fight who think they’d be OK in a serious fight among adults. They wouldn’t, not unless they were very lucky. 18 stone rugby players who break limbs on a regular basis are not OK in real fights. The rules are different, and you need to be trained and experienced, not least because the result of getting punched in the face is that you are not in a film and thus you fall over, and then you’ve lost. Unless you’re a berserker.)

Comment #245: Nineveh  on  12/16  at  07:41 PM

Check out the femicides of Ciudad Juarez, something I think other posters may have been alluding to.  Women who are poor, homeless, prostitutes, are easy victims that often never are missed, so there’s no report.  I agree it’s harder to hide a body than to keep someone quiet through intimidation, but it’s not unheard-of.

True enough.  Granted, it should be taken into consideration that Juarez is under the jurisdictional auspices of Mexico, and as corrupt as police can be here, and as inaccurate as crime data aggregation can be here… it’s a zillion times worse down there.  A huge percentage of their police force is working for the drug cartels, so they have a lot more personally vested reasons to disregard criminal activity there than we do here, when they are literally part of the criminal empires they are supposed to be reigning in.  I imagine a fairly sizeable chunk of the femicides occurring in Juarez are likely being perpetrated by the police themselves, in the interest of concealing their corrupt activities.

I don’t doubt that the number of female homicides in the U.S. is very likely more under-reported than the number of male homicides here.  Women are treated as second-class citizens at every level in our society, so it would make perfect sense that all violent crimes against women here, including homicides, are going to be under-investigated, and under-reported.

But all we have to go by are the stats available, and beyond that, it’s largely speculation as to just how much homicide under-reporting is taking place.  With rape for instance, we have actual reputable studies which provide specific measurable data in which we can say affirmatively that rape is vastly under-reported here, and that the number of rapes that actually occur is far, far greater than the number of rapes that are reported on DoJ violent crime data reports.  We’ve even got rough estimates of just how badly misrepresentative the official DoJ stats are.

I haven’t seen any reputable studies which point to a massive under-reporting of female homicides.  By massive, I’m talking under-reporting that indicates the disparity between male and female homicides is actually much, much closer than the crime data supplied by the DoJ.  If such a study exists, I’d be very curious to see it.

I know for certain that rape is vastly under-reported, because I can cite numerous studies which empirically prove that to be the case.  I don’t know that female homicide is drastically under-reported, because I have never seen any such study indicating that to be the case.  I’ve heard it theorized in several forums, and I’ve heard plausible explanations as to how it could be under-reported, but I haven’t actually seen any solid evidence that it’s happening on a large scale, unlike rape.

Comment #246: DTG in STL  on  12/16  at  07:49 PM

</blockquote>So she should have waited for the three guys surrounding her and making sexual comments about her to physically assault her before trying to deter them?

Frankly, I think that Cord rushed over because he correctly read the situation as a very dangerous one for his friend.  His problem is the ignorance that leads him to think that the danger she was in was of getting into a fistfight, not sexual assault by three men. </blockquote>

ditto x infinity to everything you’ve said on this thread Mnemosyne.

On the one hand, I’m completely speechless at the thought that this needed to be explained at all.*  (this = friend being in danger of being sexually assaulted, not that Cord for some reason thought she was in danger of getting into a fistfight instead)  On the other hand, I suppose at least that gives us an explanation for how Cord was able to so completely misread the situation himself and then publicly react with such complete FAIL to the actions that lead up to his getting punched.

*where are these people when I’m being told for the millionth time not to do the mutiltude of things I’m not. to. do. because I am a girl….and boys will be boys?

Do they disappear and are replaced by pod people?  Do the parts of their brain that tell their mouths to say “watch your drinks at all times when out clubbing” not talk to the parts of their brain that tell their mouths to say “all they did [, all three of them,] was talk about your breasts [and surround you]....did you really need to escalate to violence?”

Is the problem that polite society rarely states threats of sexual assault specifically, so it often sounds like you are just warning women to be safe the way that you warn everyone to be safe?  (“Well…everyone should watch their drinks…” as if most people don’t direct such comments directly to women or as if a significant portion of those male on male murder statistics began with spiked drinks.)

Or is everyone under the impression that it’s just the creepy, skulky dudes that are the threat, not the next-door or high-school-bully or middle-management type guys?  So women need to be on the lookout for guys hiding in bushes or under trenchcoats, but not the normal looking (if assholish) dude spilling beer a few tables away?

Comment #247: jennygadget  on  12/16  at  08:13 PM

At the risk of being repetitive, that last sentence is the one that’s my sticking point.  I don’t get that he felt he intervened against his will from reading his article.

Let me put it another way:  the way he told the story indicated that he regretted intervening since it landed him in the hospital.  He may not have done it against his will at the time, but he’s having second thoughts about having intervened since it turned out so badly for him.

As I said, he’s telling this anecdote to try and claim that the situation his friend was in was analogous to a male fistfight and that he only got punched in the head because the three guys harassing his friend felt some kind of social constraint on hitting a woman, so they hit him instead.  However, it’s pretty clear from his description that that’s not what was going on and it’s extremely unlikely that the danger she was in was of getting into a fistfight.

Comment #248: Mnemosyne  on  12/16  at  08:25 PM

oldfeminist:

  Why should they “take their own beatings,” when the code is that you help your male friends out if they’re in trouble?

They shouldn’t take their own beatings, which was exactly my point.  The code isn’t that “you help your male friends out,” it’s that you help your friends out regardless of gender, in fact especially if they are female.  Once again, at the risk of being repetitive:  what’s so un-feminist about going to the aid of a female friend in danger?  If you reject “the code” of chivalric action as tainted, what’s the alternative action?  Is chivalric action really incompatible with feminism, as Amanda seems to want to claim?

Chivalric action in the general sense of helping your friends obviously is not incompatible with feminism. 

Is that what you think we’re asking for, that we not have our friends stick up for us because we’re female?  It isn’t. 

It’s the gendered reading of the situation that came from Cord.  That’s the problem. 

He assumes that the difference if this had been a male friend is that a male friend wouldn’t have started a fight he had to finish “for him.” 

He doesn’t have to say so explicitly, and this is part of the problem, because if he did, his claim would be easier to deconstruct and then demolish. 

This is an article about what it’s like to be a man, implying this is something women don’t have to deal with, and then talks about something a particular woman did and what happened afterwards.  He assumes here that the woman doesn’t think about his physical safety when she dumps nachos on a shithead, and assumes she expects her physical safety is assured.

First point, he wasn’t there until it got to the nacho-dumping point.  She wouldn’t have an expectation he’d be standing right there.  This is way different from the cultural meme of the loudmouth bitch with the big mean boyfriend behind her so you can’t talk back to her.  Or the loudmouth bitch who is your girlfriend and you can’t stop her and the big mean guys are going to beat you up for what she said.

Second point, a male friend probably wouldn’t have been treated to “nice tits” or whatever from the sparkly assholes.  There’s a big difference between that and a sarcastic “nice shirt” or “little man” comment.  Her physical safety, sexual or otherwise, isn’t assured.  When three big guys say this to you, it’s a threat.

Would he expect a male friend not to react to *sexual* harassment from three guys?  The concept of male pride is supposed to be a big, big deal here, so I would think the “fighting words” requirement would have been even better fulfilled by that than by any general disparagement.

I think is the root of the issue.  Sexual harassment is minimized if it’s to women, and blown way out of proportion if it’s to men.  The idea that a gay man might look at you in a locker room still keeps gay men from coming out pretty much everywhere in sports, military and other “masculine” jobs.  That’s not even real harassment, just a funny feeling someone might be looking at your ass.

But whatever, suppose a male friend in the same situation just got insulted to the point where he felt he had to take it physical, though he was alone, and Cord emerges from the bathroom at that point.  Instead of the girl-script tossing nachos, his friend is poking his finger in one of the guy’s chests, or bumping shoulders.  Initial physical contact that isn’t damaging but is aggressive.  That’s the analog to her nacho toss.

He tries to defuse it by saying his friend didn’t mean it. 

He then steps between his friend and the jerks, turned away from them, to talk to her.  Sorry, no matter how nice a guy he is, no matter how he phrases it, *he wasn’t actually protecting her at that point*.  He wasn’t getting into a fight.  He was just there.  Between the aggressors and his friend.  Being supportive of her, but not fighting for her.

He wants guy credit for something he didn’t even do!  And the right to judge her reaction when he wasn’t there.

[continued]

Comment #249: oldfeminist  on  12/16  at  08:43 PM

[continued]

God, I wish we could ask her what happened.  She saw a lot more than he did.

The point is, we don’t want to be treated like we use our male friends as a buffer so we can scream shit at some guy you’ll have to fight, and get away with it. 

This is the cultural meme:  You and your big mouth.  Bitch got me into a fight.  Control your woman.

The woman in this meme is associated with a man not as one of several equal friends, all perhaps vulnerable to groups of bullies individually but banded together in protection, but as a sort of adjunct, property, a ventriloquist’s dummy that’s not quite under control sometimes, who can’t provide any support to anyone else.  Dependent.  And if you’re dependent in some way, you have to pay for your upkeep or be considered a parasite.  Even if you do pay, you’re a parasite if what you pay is something negligible like sex or housework, something you’d have to do for someone somewhere anyway.

As a parasite, you have to do as you’re told.  Like the daddy who controls the wife and kids because he “protects” them from the big mean world.

Like any other group of people, yes, there are women who provoke other people just for fun or out of sheer assholery.  And yes, sometimes they do this by promising or delivering sex or, more often, the cachet of being the guy who has the head cheerleader or the girl with the “best figure.” 

That kind of high-school shit wears out quickly.  And yet men seem to think this is what women who get in conflict with other men are doing all the time, demanding men prove their commitment by fighting for them.

Instead, most of the time, it’s a bully or bullies messing with someone weaker, and the weaker person doing what they can, maybe unwisely but in the heat of the moment, standing up because they feel they should.  Sometimes women (and men, and I think Cord was among them) don’t realize what’s going to happen as a physical fight is brewing, and act unwisely, making it worse.  They don’t do that because they know men are going to rush in and save the day.  They do it because they’re upset, angry, afraid, drunk, or just don’t know what to do but have the habit of not backing down.

Comment #250: oldfeminist  on  12/16  at  08:43 PM

“God, I wish we could ask her what happened. “

So do I.

We do, however, know that she was not only “yelling obsenities” but also “in tears” before Cord even got hit.

The fact that she was crying as well as yelling suggests to me that she wasn’t just pissed, she was scared.

Comment #251: jennygadget  on  12/16  at  09:02 PM

Mnemosyne:

Let me put it another way:  the way he told the story indicated that he regretted intervening since it landed him in the hospital.  He may not have done it against his will at the time, but he’s having second thoughts about having intervened since it turned out so badly for him.

That just seems to be an awful lot to read into Cord’s relation of his story.  I’ve read that passage half a dozen times now and I’m still not seeing how he said anything that indicates he regrets being put in the hospital.  I can assume he does, of course, who wouldn’t, but not because he regretted intervening.  If it’s some kind of subtextual impression you’re getting, I’m not seeing it.  Does the mere fact that he mentions that there was a way he might not have gotten hit and the colorful way he describes lying on the floor in a pool of his own blood lead to this conclusion?  If so, wow.

he’s telling this anecdote to try and claim that the situation his friend was in was analogous to a male fistfight and that he only got punched in the head because the three guys harassing his friend felt some kind of social constraint on hitting a woman, so they hit him instead.

Almost.  I read it as being that the three guys harassing his friend felt a social constraint against hitting a woman, and since he wasn’t one, they felt no such constraint about hitting him.  That’s what the piece literally says.  Again, if it’s subtextual, I’m not seeing it.

However, it’s pretty clear from his description that that’s not what was going on and it’s extremely unlikely that the danger she was in was of getting into a fistfight.

The nature of the danger is kind of irrelevant, I would say.  If it wasn’t danger of a fistfight, it almost certainly was danger of something even worse.  One could argue that the infliction of damage had already started (with the sexual harassment).  It at least had the appearance of escalating to something physical (nachos were thrown, squares were offed).  In any event, I think Cord’s intervention was understandable if not advisable.

Comment #252: liberalrob  on  12/16  at  09:18 PM

oldfeminist:

First, impressive comments.  Calm, clear, and utterly without vitriol or needless personalization.  This is the way to discuss things.

Chivalric action in the general sense of helping your friends obviously is not incompatible with feminism.

That’s what I thought.  Then Amanda brought up that whole chivalry-is-a-copout thing and I wondered.

Is that what you think we’re asking for, that we not have our friends stick up for us because we’re female?  It isn’t.

It’s the gendered reading of the situation that came from Cord.  That’s the problem.

Hmm.  OK, I can see that being an issue.  I still don’t see how it’s a gendered reading or how a non-gendered reading would have led to a different and/or better resolution.

He assumes that the difference if this had been a male friend is that a male friend wouldn’t have started a fight he had to finish “for him.”

He never says that at all in his story.  Where did you get that from?

He doesn’t have to say so explicitly, and this is part of the problem, because if he did, his claim would be easier to deconstruct and then demolish.

No doubt, but since he didn’t say so explicitly, is it fair to say it for him?

This is an article about what it’s like to be a man

Wait a minute, I thought it was an article about differing acceptance of violence depending on the gender of the victim.  This Taco Bell story Jefferson relates comes after most of his main article and is only explicitly used to try to illustrate one example of such a difference.  I’m assuming you read the Jefferson piece completely.

He wants guy credit for something he didn’t even do!  And the right to judge her reaction when he wasn’t there.

Well, he gets guy credit for taking a sucker punch, at least.  And for standing up for his friend.  We don’t know if that saved his friend from further harm, since the story ends without telling us any more about the friend.  And “the right to judge her reaction?”  I’d think his friend dumping nachos on the thug was pretty clear evidence that she thought something had happened to deserve it, unless she was the type who just dumps nachos on people for no reason.  The thugs “squaring off” with her would also pretty much seal the deal as far as judgment goes.  At that point you either defend your friend or she’s not really your friend.  I don’t think feminism would disagree.

God, I wish we could ask her what happened.  She saw a lot more than he did.

Yeah, though I’m not sure it would have helped.  I bet we’d still have had all this Rashomoning anyway.  And since as you say he wasn’t there for the sexual harassment which he related happened while he was in the bathroom, we can assume he got that info from his friend.

The point is, we don’t want to be treated like we use our male friends as a buffer so we can scream shit at some guy you’ll have to fight, and get away with it.

No problem with that.  Agreed.

This is the cultural meme:  You and your big mouth.  Bitch got me into a fight.  Control your woman.

Which is fine to discuss, but it’s outside the scope of Jefferson’s article, and not really the point of his telling his getting-hit story.

Comment #253: liberalrob  on  12/16  at  09:51 PM

“The nature of the danger is kind of irrelevant, I would say.”

Bullshit.  Because of the very meme that Cord thinks he’s exporing in depth (but really only scratching the surface): guys don’t hit girls.

Part of the point of throwing the nachos is to transition from sexual violence to plain physical violence.  Many guys that have no problems hitting other guys or sexually assaulting women will hesitate to flat out hit a woman.  Especially in public.  Especially if it’s not their girlfriend, etc.  That makes throwing drinks, nachos, what have you, a way to potentially de-escalate the situation.  It can backfire, obviously, because the meme has to do with pretending to respect women, but not actually doing so.  Generally there aren’t a whole lot of other options in those situations though, so it’s sometimes worth the gamble.

So yeah, the nature of the danger is essential to understanding why she acted the way she did.  And understanding why certain things that Cord did were not really the best decisions in terms of ensuring everyone’s safety.

And, most importantly, as Amanda said in the post, it’s essential to understanding what “guys don’t hit girls” really means and how it translates to actual violence.

Comment #254: jennygadget  on  12/16  at  10:18 PM

I read it as being that the three guys harassing his friend felt a social constraint against hitting a woman, and since he wasn’t one, they felt no such constraint about hitting him.  That’s what the piece literally says.  Again, if it’s subtextual, I’m not seeing it.

Yes, I understand that both you and Cord are completely misreading the situation and thinking that three guys who surround a woman are thinking that they can harass her and even rape her, but it would somehow be crossing a line if they should hit her.

Do you really not have any idea how strange it is for you to essentially be saying that they felt no social constraint to not rape her, but they did feel a social constraint against punching her that was so strong they had to take it out on the nearest male instead?

Comment #255: Mnemosyne  on  12/16  at  10:20 PM

Wait a minute, I thought it was an article about differing acceptance of violence depending on the gender of the victim.  This Taco Bell story Jefferson relates comes after most of his main article and is only explicitly used to try to illustrate one example of such a difference.

So, again, you’re claiming that three men who surround a woman in public and threaten her will feel a social constraint against hitting her that is so strong that they will hit a man who tries to help her.

That’s Jefferson’s story.  His friend was being harassed, he went to help her, the three guys really wanted to punch her but felt a social constraint not to, so they punched him instead.

Now, maybe I’m not getting something really weird about guys that they think it’s worse to punch a woman than it is to sexually assault her, so they would feel more compunction about punching a woman than they would raping her.  Is that your argument?  If so, it’s not much of a defense of chivalry:  sure, you’re in constant danger of being raped by me, but at least I won’t punch you in the face, too.

Comment #256: Mnemosyne  on  12/16  at  10:27 PM

Do you really not have any idea how strange it is for you to essentially be saying that they felt no social constraint to not rape her, but they did feel a social constraint against punching her that was so strong they had to take it out on the nearest male instead?

I’m with Mnemosyne here—I doubt those guys felt a terribly strong constraint about hitting a woman. I just don’t buy this idea that a man is fine with sexually assaulting a woman, but that punching her is just a bridge too far.

Comment #257: psammead0804  on  12/16  at  10:48 PM

sure, you’re in constant danger of being raped by me, but at least I won’t punch you in the face, too.

Yeah, I’m getting shades of the old “getting punched is worse than getting raped” bit I’ve heard from a number of men. They honestly seem to think that being beaten is worse than being raped and beaten. I guess that’s because they think that rape is sex, and after all, that’s what women are for.

Comment #258: psammead0804  on  12/16  at  10:52 PM

While it has no bearing on the general points about violence concerning men and women, what’s interesting about the specific situation in particular is that Jefferson never states in the article whether he and his friend were the only ones in the taco shop or whether they were part of a larger social group. After all, it has no bearing on the point he was making (the guys hit him rather than her because it’s more socially acceptable, etc.) and he says that he ‘ran over’, presumably before anyone else in the room had a chance to get involved (if there were even any other customers, again without knowing it’s very difficult to analyse the situation).

Because if they were in a larger group that would mean: a) That the immediate danger to her would have been less both before and after the nacho throwing, and b) Jefferson was wrong to apologise after all - that move makes sense in a situation where you’re outnumbered and outmuscled and you’re trying to get you and your friend out of a dangerous and heightening corner, but numbers in support often mean these things end in posturing rather than assault.

Comment #259: Stubborn Kind of Fellow  on  12/16  at  10:55 PM

Mnemosyne #255:

Yes, I understand that both you and Cord are completely misreading the situation and thinking that three guys who surround a woman are thinking that they can harass her and even rape her, but it would somehow be crossing a line if they should hit her.

You’re turning this into some kind of CSI story and going way beyond what Cord said in his piece, to construct a narrative that he never intended to discuss and wasn’t anywhere near the subject of his main article and then pillory him for it.  How do you know what the three guys were thinking?  Cord didn’t say anything about that, other than that they wouldn’t have hit a woman.  That’s totally a construction after the fact, based on assumptions of what people are thinking that you have no way of knowing are true or not.

And then you up the ante by throwing around the ‘R’ word, because you know that will immediately make feminists tend to not think about what is really being said but rather play to their prejudices and assumptions about “how men really think.”  How is that a good faith argument?

Do you really not have any idea how strange it is for you to essentially be saying that they felt no social constraint to not rape her, but they did feel a social constraint against punching her that was so strong they had to take it out on the nearest male instead?

It’s indeed strange for you to mention that, because this entire website is replete with references to the “rape culture” (implying no social restraint against rape, indeed quite the opposite) and chivalry (implying a social constraint against hitting women).  So how strange is it really, given that?  And do you have any idea how strange it is for you to insert rape into the equation, when Cord doesn’t say that rape was involved or threatened here; that was an extrapolation based on assumptions, too, and similarly not germane to Cord’s point.  Maybe it was threatened; does that have any bearing on whether Cord should have jumped in as he did?  Did it make any difference in his getting sucker-punched?  That’s why I said the nature of the danger was kind of irrelevant; it didn’t matter with regards to Cord’s point about violence tolerance.  Why are you trying to distract from the main point of discussion?

Now, maybe I’m not getting something really weird about guys that they think it’s worse to punch a woman than it is to sexually assault her, so they would feel more compunction about punching a woman than they would raping her.  Is that your argument?

Not at all.  I never mentioned rape at all.  You’re the one who brought that up.  I would think that if a man had no compunction about punching a woman, he would almost certainly have no compunction about raping her.  And since I’m not sold on the “rape culture,” I’d assume the reverse would also be true.  If you’re capable of one kind of violence, you’re probably capable of all kinds of violence.  What’s that got to do with Cord’s piece?

Comment #260: liberalrob  on  12/17  at  12:58 AM

“How do you know what the three guys were thinking?”

Because she was yelling obscenities, crying, and threw her nachos at them.  In the absence of any other information, (and given that there was no other information unsual enough that Cord felt the need to mention it) the most logical guess is that they sexually harrassed and threatened her in a way that made her feel very unsafe.  Simply because that is the most common reason a woman would react that way in response to an altercation with three strange wmen in a public place.

Yet, for some reason, Cord seems to think that she was safe while he was not.

“What’s that got to do with Cord’s piece?”

AGAIN because Cord is the one that mentioned the whole “guys don’t hit girls” patriachal bullshit.  And then proceeded to take it at face value - while acting as if he was giving the women who read Jezebel some deep insight into the whole concept.

“I would think that if a man had no compunction about punching a woman, he would almost certainly have no compunction about raping her.  And since I’m not sold on the “rape culture,” I’d assume the reverse would also be true.”

Why the fuck would assume that?  Irregardless of what you believe about rape culture, that flies in the face of studies into criminal behavior.  It brings to mind the bit from Criminal Minds - “Natural Born Killer” - when they figure out that their suspect is an undercover cop/agent because his rap sheet makes absolutely no sense; it’s just a list of crimes with no logical escalation/progression or relation to another.

Certainly, someone who will resort to a certain type of violence is statistically more likely to resort to other types of violence than someone who isn’t violent at all - especially when discussing violence that targets a type of person.  However, that doesn’t say much about how likely it is that a violent person will commit more than one kind of crime or act of violence.

So, no, it’s not certain that a man who hits a woman will also rape her and vice versa, even if it is likely.  And that’s useful to know when trying to deal with assholes like the ones in question.

Comment #261: jennygadget  on  12/17  at  02:08 AM

Hmm.  OK, I can see that being an issue.  I still don’t see how it’s a gendered reading or how a non-gendered reading would have led to a different and/or better resolution.

His thesis is “Why Is Snooki More Precious Than I Am?”  Based on her gender.  He describes the surprise he and others felt when he saw Snooki got punched because she’s female. 

So I think, yes, when he describes the nacho shop incident, it’s a gendered reading of an event.  He assumes that males and females act and react differently.

And I think it’s safe to say that the implicit comparison there is between the situation as he experienced it and the situation as he would have experienced it had his friend been male.

  He assumes that the difference if this had been a male friend is that a male friend wouldn’t have started a fight he had to finish “for him.”
He never says that at all in his story.  Where did you get that from?

Leave everything the same up to the point when he comes out of the bathroom.

His friend has been harassed to the point of starting some symbolic violence, and is upset.

The friend is not a woman, but a man.

He says, “But to this day I’m almost certain I knew what he was thinking the instant before he smashed my face in and gave me 36 stitches in my head: “I can’t hit a woman.”“

In other words, he’s saying that had the friend been male, standing there, the friend would have gotten punched instead of him.

I thought it was an article about differing acceptance of violence depending on the gender of the victim.  This Taco Bell story Jefferson relates comes after most of his main article and is only explicitly used to try to illustrate one example of such a difference.  I’m assuming you read the Jefferson piece completely.

Yes, and the conclusion one draws from what he says and his interpretation of the social pressures on men is that women don’t get punched in the face in public.

Which is actually obviously wrong, since the MTV hook this hangs on doesn’t illustrate that men don’t hit women in the face in public.  Maybe the title of the piece should be “Why Is Snooki’s Beating Too Precious For TV?”

(Precious could be exactly the word—MTV figured out that people will pay $19.99 for an “MTV Uncensored” tape of it for Xmas.)

  This is the cultural meme:  You and your big mouth.  Bitch got me into a fight.  Control your woman.

Which is fine to discuss, but it’s outside the scope of Jefferson’s article, and not really the point of his telling his getting-hit story.
Comment #253: liberalrob on 12/16 at 07:51 PM

It is a cultural meme that goes along with the one that says “don’t hit women.”  I’d say it’s not out of scope to look at the implications of one on the other.  I think the fact that a lot of us picked up on it means that it’s not unrelated.

Comment #262: oldfeminist  on  12/17  at  02:12 AM

Cord doesn’t say that rape was involved or threatened here; that was an extrapolation based on assumptions, too, and similarly not germane to Cord’s point. 
Comment #260: liberalrob on 12/16 at 10:58 PM

Commenting about her breasts, enough to get her to the point of dumping nachos, screaming obscenities and crying.  It seems she felt threatened.

Cord also claims he doesn’t want violence to be rated worse or better.  This is silly, it’s like saying that he doesn’t want someone who beats up a helpless child or an old person who can’t walk any more to be treated as the same kind of violent person as someone who got in a bar fight when drunk with another drunk of the same approximate fighting skill.  He’s saying, why does it make a difference that someone hit someone a lot smaller and weaker than him?  Well, it does.

In fact, that the guys who hit him were apparently bigger or at least stronger or willing to sucker punch him makes that violence worse than his friend dumping the nachos on them.

Would it have been fairer if they hit her?  I don’t know, is she smaller and weaker?

Comment #263: oldfeminist  on  12/17  at  02:13 AM

Now, maybe I’m not getting something really weird about guys that they think it’s worse to punch a woman than it is to sexually assault her, so they would feel more compunction about punching a woman than they would raping her.  Is that your argument?  If so, it’s not much of a defense of chivalry:  sure, you’re in constant danger of being raped by me, but at least I won’t punch you in the face, too.
Comment #256: Mnemosyne on 12/16 at 08:27 PM

I can see a mindset that would support it, though not a very chivalrous one.  They don’t want to be seen punching a woman, because she’s weaker and that’s not fair.  Raping her, however, would be okay, since that just means they’re taking something from her that rightfully belongs to them.  Note that when you see a woman being raped on TV, she’s usually not brutalized.  The extent of the violence is usually just holding her down, or slapping her to let her know she’s supposed to stop struggling.  If a woman is also going to die, it’s separate from the rape.  He disposes of her afterwards, like a soiled tissue, or before, so she’s perfectly still and unmoving.

This isn’t representative of all rapes, of course, and some are quite sickeningly violent.  But I guess it would harsh the mellow of the Special Victims Unit fans.

So again it maybe turns out that the subject is actually what is okay to talk about or see on TV.  Which, in this TV-mediated world, is what informs our discussions if we haven’t been actually involved in such a thing ourselves. 

So the meme goes on, “can’t hit a woman.”  Supposedly illustrated by the unwillingness of a TV show to air footage of a woman actually getting hit.  Even though it did happen.

Denial isn’t just a river, it is a strong undertow.

Comment #264: oldfeminist  on  12/17  at  02:16 AM

Jefferson was wrong to apologise after all - that move makes sense in a situation where you’re outnumbered and outmuscled and you’re trying to get you and your friend out of a dangerous and heightening corner, but numbers in support often mean these things end in posturing rather than assault.

That move IME almost never works*....and isn’t any better than the “ignore them and they’ll stop” BS advice clueless parents, teachers, and other adults often give to bullying victims in school and elsewhere.  Nearly everyone who tried the “apologize for your friend” tactic has ended up encouraging the muscleheads because they often will interpret that as a sign of fear and the behavior of a sniveling coward contemptible enough to get beaten up. 

Instead of public apologies for friends which betray weakness along with impugning your friend’s dignity, one is better off quickly exiting the situation quietly without a word.

Comment #265: exholt  on  12/17  at  02:42 AM

this entire website is replete with references to the “rape culture” (implying no social restraint against rape, indeed quite the opposite)

Liberalrob, that’s not what the term “rape culture” means at all. No wonder you’re not “sold” on it.

Indeed, I would argue that at least nominal “social restraint” is very important in maintaining a rape culture, because that allows denialism to flourish (oh no, rape is a terrible thing, only a terrible person would do that, nobody I know would do such a thing, it must be pretty rare!)

You like being educated, so have at it.

Comment #266: psammead0804  on  12/17  at  11:13 AM

“Calm, clear, and utterly without vitriol or needless personalization.  This is the way to discuss things. “
So, you’re now oh-so-subtly implying I’m just a hysterical bitch, while simultaneously praising someone else for not making personal insults.  Thank you for making your hypocrisy so crystal clear. 

++

“Commenting about her breasts, enough to get her to the point of dumping nachos, screaming obscenities and crying.  It seems she felt threatened. “

Ah, but that’s missing the point.  See, CORD didn’t say she was threatened, therefore she wasn’t.  Sexually harassing a woman totally never makes her feel threatened and totally never leads to rape, unless a man who wasn’t there to witness it says it does.  it doesn’t matter that we don’t have her version of events, what matters is that women here are not falling all over themselves to praise Cord of his chivalry and bravery in blaming the victim for the events that followed.

and this:
“He’s saying, why does it make a difference that someone hit someone a lot smaller and weaker than him?  Well, it does. “

It is spot on.

Comment #267: Gypsy Lee  on  12/17  at  11:21 AM

“You like being educated, so have at it.”

Well done, psammead0804!!  I, personally, would LOVE to see him try to pull the shit her pulls here over *there*.

Comment #268: Gypsy Lee  on  12/17  at  11:23 AM

I, personally, would LOVE to see him try to pull the shit her pulls here over *there*.

I wouldn’t. But at least I’m handy with the delete button and the banninator!

Honestly though, I thought that liberalrob and others here might not be clear on rape culture—their comments reveal as much. It was not an invitation to “debate” or to go to another site and start some crap. Just to be clear.

Comment #269: psammead0804  on  12/17  at  11:39 AM

Gypsy Lee:

“Calm, clear, and utterly without vitriol or needless personalization.  This is the way to discuss things. “
So, you’re now oh-so-subtly implying I’m just a hysterical bitch, while simultaneously praising someone else for not making personal insults.

Draw your own conclusions, as you clearly will.  Does it make you feel better to believe that I’m calling you a hysterical bitch?  Because I’m all in favor of people feeling better.  I’ll just say that I have never called anyone a hysterical bitch, and never will.  Engaging in that sort of personal attack never leads to a thoughtful discussion, or indeed any kind of useful dialogue.  It’s just a waste of everyone’s time.  Not that I never break out the insults myself; I do have my limits.  But I also will never call anyone bitch, even if she asks me to.

jennygadget:

Yet, for some reason, Cord seems to think that she was safe while he was not.

No, he never thought she was safe.  If she was safe, why intervene?  What he thought (and not until after it happened) was that he was vulnerable, that he got hit because he wasn’t a woman, not because he wasn’t his friend.  You have to see that distinction before you can properly understand his article.

oldfeminist:

And I think it’s safe to say that the implicit comparison there is between the situation as he experienced it and the situation as he would have experienced it had his friend been male.

No, it’s not safe to say that, because then you’re changing his story and the reason he offered it into something completely different; because you want to talk about something else.  Is that being fair to Cord, to just change his article’s focus like that?  Why not, for argument’s sake, change Cord into a woman and play that one out?  Or change everyone’s gender, have Cord’s friend be the one who dumps nachos on a bunch of drunk girls who harassed him, and female Cordelia jumps in?  But that never happens, because that’s not what you want to talk about.  Everyone wants to talk about what a male-privileged jackass Cord is, so all the changes and hypotheticals are skewed in that direction.  And everyone just conveniently ignores what he really was talking about.  That’s not fair.

So again it maybe turns out that the subject is actually what is okay to talk about or see on TV.

The light dawns!  Hallelujah!  And beyond that, how what is OK to see on TV is related to what we think is OK to see in real life.

Which, in this TV-mediated world, is what informs our discussions if we haven’t been actually involved in such a thing ourselves.

Bullseye again! 

Everyone who has experienced sexual harassment of the kind Cord described leading up to his being punched seized on that aspect of his story, promptly forgot about/ignored what he was really trying to talk about, and started haring off on this tangential subject of how he’s blaming the victim and all this other stuff they invented in their heads as “what he was really saying;” and Amanda took it as an opportunity to declaim on how chivalry is a cop-out from feminism.  All of which may or may not be true, but is not actually relevant to the subject of his article.  It sure generated a lot of heated discussion, though.

Comment #270: liberalrob  on  12/17  at  02:53 PM

I, personally, would LOVE to see him try to pull the shit her pulls here over *there*.

Why?  Do you think Melissa McEwan would track me down, show up at my door and blow my brains out with a shotgun, thus fulfilling your Kill Bill fantasy about me?  Quick, someone alert Quentin Tarantino.

I don’t see what you think my posting on Shakesville would accomplish.  At best, from your perspective, I would get banned; but that’s not really any different from the current situation, where I don’t post there at all anyway.  And who knows; she might appreciate having someone who posts his dissents thoughtfully and doesn’t just call people hysterical bitches.  How would you feel then?

Comment #271: liberalrob  on  12/17  at  03:02 PM

exholt #232.

Guess we’ll just have to chalk it up to different life experiences. I remember running across quite a few kids who would try and go the stoic route or try and stand up for themselves, many times it was obvious they had been coached to do so.  In the end it didnt matter, they just got beaten or tormented more, kind of like andy dufresne in shawshank. Many bullies are blowhards and will respond to a lot of what you mentioned, many are also sadists in need of help theyll likely never get at most public schools. taking a big gamble hoping you are dealing with the former. for every stereotypical loudmouth fratboy who will shrink away if you call a bouncer, theres a millworker like i was who will welcome the challenge. if i have a kid im not sure what i’d tell her or him to do. it frightens me terribly.  its the way we’re socialized methinks but a policy of no violence should be enforced from day one, even most forms of self-defense, really blurry lines on that though. as i said earlier, men need to start that and be responsible for almost all of it but most men view it as losing too much, not realizing how much we all have to gain from it. apologies from going off on the bully thing again, it just really gets my goat, seen too many kids get hurt trying to stand up but dont know what else they can do.

Comment #272: dan&danica;  on  12/17  at  05:16 PM

Guess we’ll just have to chalk it up to different life experiences. I remember running across quite a few kids who would try and go the stoic route or try and stand up for themselves, many times it was obvious they had been coached to do so.  In the end it didnt matter, they just got beaten or tormented more, kind of like andy dufresne in shawshank. Many bullies are blowhards and will respond to a lot of what you mentioned, many are also sadists in need of help theyll likely never get at most public schools. taking a big gamble hoping you are dealing with the former. for every stereotypical loudmouth fratboy who will shrink away if you call a bouncer, theres a millworker like i was who will welcome the challenge.

The “millworker” type IME would tend to avoid targeting someone like my elementary/junior high school self as I would have been considered too short, young, and “easy to beat up” by them.  The ones in my neighborhood tended to take on someone closer to them in those areas…or larger.  Weren’t too many of them as they often ended up biting off more than they can chew and end up being beaten to a bloody pulp by the bigger/stronger/better trained kids….or even killed with pipes, knives, and guns. 

The oddest part is that I now could easily be mistaken for a “millworker” type at the divebars where I go to watch live performances as I have shown an admittedly foolhardy willingness to step in whenever I see bigger and taller muscleheads attempting to intimidate my younger and/or smaller sized friends whenever they were moshing.  Though in the two cases where the muscleheads were showing indications they were about to throw punches at my moshing friends or me, a nasty stare and inching closer to them tended to be enough to cause them to have second thoughts. 

I’ve always hated people who felt entitled to bully others because they are bigger and stronger and I try to do whatever I can to thwart them.  Never could understand the desire to pick on someone because you have the advantage or starting fights.  All the fights I’ve been in have occurred after the aggressors threw the first punches at me/my friends and we’re all cornered/surrounded.

Comment #273: exholt  on  12/17  at  06:08 PM

Since I last read this thread, the interpretation of what was about to happen to the woman has escalated considerably, to imminent sexual assault. From Cord’s depiction, one of the thugs said something like “Nice tits, sweetheart,” followed by the dumping of nachos, the interposition of Cord, and Cord’s thumping. If these guys were really intent on rape, would they not have raped the woman while Cord was unconscious? Would that not have been the perfect opportunity to drag her into their Thugmobile and have their way with her?

These three guys seem to have been sexist assholes, commenting on the woman’s breasts to put her in her place as mere gratifier of male sexual desire. This is obnoxious but not a sign of imminent sexual assault. Else, car catcallers would all be rapists. The woman was screaming because she did not want to be reduced to a pair of breasts for men to comment on. She was crying because assholery had escalated to physical violence.

Comment #274: Hector B.  on  12/17  at  07:36 PM

From Cord’s depiction, one of the thugs said something like “Nice tits, sweetheart,” followed by the dumping of nachos, the interposition of Cord, and Cord’s thumping. If these guys were really intent on rape, would they not have raped the woman while Cord was unconscious? Would that not have been the perfect opportunity to drag her into their Thugmobile and have their way with her?

These three guys seem to have been sexist assholes, commenting on the woman’s breasts to put her in her place as mere gratifier of male sexual desire. This is obnoxious but not a sign of imminent sexual assault. Else, car catcallers would all be rapists. The woman was screaming because she did not want to be reduced to a pair of breasts for men to comment on. She was crying because assholery had escalated to physical violence.
Comment #274: Hector B.  on 12/17 at 05:36 PM

Really?

Most women hear “nice tits, sweetheart” on a very, *very* regular basis when they’re young enough to be so “complimented.”  The presumption that a woman would be screaming and crying as a result of such a comment is naive.

Comment #275: oldfeminist  on  12/17  at  07:55 PM

oldfeminist:

  And I think it’s safe to say that the implicit comparison there is between the situation as he experienced it and the situation as he would have experienced it had his friend been male.

No, it’s not safe to say that, because then you’re changing his story and the reason he offered it into something completely different; because you want to talk about something else.

But he said that the reason he got hit was because the bully thought “I can’t hit a woman.” 

What can that possibly mean if not a belief that, had his friend been male, the friend would have been hit instead of him? 

Please explain what it *does* mean in the context of Cord getting hit.

Everyone who has experienced sexual harassment of the kind Cord described leading up to his being punched seized on that aspect of his story, promptly forgot about/ignored what he was really trying to talk about, and started haring off on this tangential subject of how he’s blaming the victim and all this other stuff they invented in their heads as “what he was really saying;” and Amanda took it as an opportunity to declaim on how chivalry is a cop-out from feminism.  All of which may or may not be true, but is not actually relevant to the subject of his article.  It sure generated a lot of heated discussion, though.
Comment #270: liberalrob on 12/17 at 12:53 PM

I’m not sure it’s not relevant to the subject of his article.  And if you hadn’t noticed, Amanda has written her own article, right here, that we’re talking about.  We’re not limited to what you think the subject of the article was.

I dislike being posed as the “good feminist” in contrast to everyone who’s ever been sexually harassed getting all hysterical about something that doesn’t exist.  I didn’t appreciate it before but I just ignored it, against my better judgment. 

As I do you the favor of not characterizing you, please don’t characterize me.  It comes off as condescending to me and dismissive of those you compare me favorably to.

Comment #276: oldfeminist  on  12/17  at  08:06 PM

What can that possibly mean if not a belief that, had his friend been male, the friend would have been hit instead of him?

It can mean what it literally said, not what you chose to read into it as subtext based on assumptions.

Please explain what it *does* mean in the context of Cord getting hit.

It means that he had some feeling that if he had been a woman, he wouldn’t have gotten hit.  (Or at least been less likely to have been hit.)  It’s right there in plain English.

I’m not sure it’s not relevant to the subject of his article.

The subject of the article was, as a society we tolerate violence against men but not against women.  The subject of this discussion was, Cord Jefferson blames his friend for his getting hit.  That’s pretty different.

The subject of Amanda’s post was, chivalry as exhibited by Cord Jefferson in going to the aid of his friend is a cop-out to actual feminism.  Again, very different from the discussion that ensued about how Cord is a douchebag.  Notice that even Amanda didn’t accuse Cord of blaming his friend for getting hit, in her original post.  We’ve had 200+ comments discussing something that neither the original poster (Amanda) nor who she was linking to (Cord) were talking about.  It’s been going on for two solid days.

I dislike being posed as the “good feminist” in contrast to everyone who’s ever been sexually harassed getting all hysterical about something that doesn’t exist.

What do you want me to say.  I liked the fact that you were calm and reasoned in your comments, and I praised you for it.  Am I not allowed to do that?  Maybe it does come off as condescending since you see me as the enemy, but there’s no other way for me to say it; and I wasn’t going to let such an unusually collegial response (compared to what I usually get here) go by unnoted.

As far as it being dismissive of those I was comparing you favorably to, yes, it was.  I do dismiss those who engage in that kind of useless name-calling.  Just as others dismiss me when I do it (and often even when I don’t).

Comment #277: liberalrob  on  12/17  at  09:10 PM

No, he never thought she was safe.  If she was safe, why intervene?blockquote>

Because he’s being a fucking idiot?  Who doesn’t stop to consider his friend’s experience of the situation?  Who implies that he thinks that his friend got herself into trouble?  Including implying that she probably would have been safe - or at least safer -  if she hadn’t taken offense and dumped the nachos?  As several other people on this same board (including you, I believe) have not only suggested but outright stated?

In other words, he is trying to claim that women have female privilege (irregardless of it he calls it by that name or not) by pointing out she wasn’t hit but he was - and all because she’s a girl and he’s a boy.  But at the same time, he’s ignoring the fact that she was harrassed/threatened/possiblyassaulted/whathaveyou in the first place - in a way that he would pretty much never be - for the very same reason.

Which is why his article is such massive FAIL.

I mean, it’s one thing to not consider oneself a feminist to begin with.  It’s another to claim that mantle AND write a post about gendered violence that not only indicates blindness when it comes to the kind of gendered sexualized violence women face but ALSO comes to bad conclusions regarding women’s behavior in the face of such violence and ON TOP OF THAT acts like he’s contributing new information to the discussion rather than skipping over the most basic concepts.

<blockquote>You have to see that distinction before you can properly understand his article.

Wow.  you aren’t being fucking condescending at all either.  Again FAIL. And yeah, you’re really one to give etiquitte lessons (rolls eyes).

Maybe it does come off as condescending since you see me as the enemy, but there’s no other way for me to say it

yes there is: privately, jackass.  oldfeminist’s name links to her blog.  and her blog is open to comments.  If you want to tell her something in particular and not come across as scolding everyone else here, go there and tell her.

If you want to scold the rest of us while also praising her - whatever.  but at least own up to it.  don’t pretend you don’t have other options.

Comment #278: jennygadget  on  12/17  at  10:26 PM

The statement, verbatim, again:

But to this day I’m almost certain I knew what he was thinking the instant before he smashed my face in and gave me 36 stitches in my head: “I can’t hit a woman.”

I really think it makes just as much sense for him to think “she would have been hit if it were okay to hit women” as “I wouldn’t have been hit if it were not okay to hit men.”  He didn’t say “he had some feeling that if he had been a woman, he wouldn’t have gotten hit” as you paraphrase it.

Why?  Because the guy was hitting someone.  Violence was ready to occur.  Nothing that happened up to the point where he intervened had anything to do with him, and his entire intervention was only to try to calm the jerk down.  He didn’t indicate that what he did made the jerk any angrier.

Does it really not follow to you that, had his friend been a man, the blows would have landed on the friend rather than Cord, and that would have happened before Cord even made it out of the bathroom? 

Now, maybe he’s looking for peace love and understanding, but I get the feeling he’s looking for sympathy because he got hit and, um, so did Snooki.  I don’t really recall him saying anyone told him he should have gotten a beat-down, so I’m not sure what sympathy Snooki got that he’s looking for.  No one showed him on TV either.

As Amanda says, given the Snooki incident, I think it’s more likely women are going to get hit more often rather than that men are not going to get hit more often, if men and women are going to be treated equally when it comes to violence.  Because drunk assholes who want to hit people are probably always going to be out there.  “Only men are a target” won’t change to “no one’s a target.”

jennygadget:

oldfeminist’s name links to her blog.  and her blog is open to comments.  If you want to tell her something in particular and not come across as scolding everyone else here, go there and tell her.

Not a terrible idea, exactly, but unless I’m writing a post about posting here, though, it wouldn’t be on-topic on my blog, and it wouldn’t really be private.  It would increase the non-spam comments to my blog, though!

Anyway, liberalrob, calling me “Calm, clear, and utterly without vitriol or needless personalization” suggests that this is something different and new, that the other commenters are excited, unclear, with vitriol and needless personalization.  Your later comments seem to confirm this.  It’s a divide and conquer tactic.

Comparing us to each other makes it seem like we’re all students in your debate class or something.  It’s as if you expect the other commenters to argue the way you want them to because they want to get the positive attention I did.  This kind of manipulation may not be conscious at all.  But most of us have been exposed to it and don’t like even the suggestion of it.

This is just as annoying for me as it is for them.  Maybe more so, as it makes me want to not reward you by continuing to argue the way I’m arguing, so I have the choice of arguing in my own voice to get patted on the head, or being inauthentic to myself. 

I don’t want to be the honorary good feminist for you.  As I said before, you don’t like personalization, so don’t do it, even if you mean it to be positive.

Comment #279: oldfeminist  on  12/18  at  02:20 AM

calling me “Calm, clear, and utterly without vitriol or needless personalization” suggests that this is something different and new, that the other commenters are excited, unclear, with vitriol and needless personalization.  Your later comments seem to confirm this.  It’s a divide and conquer tactic.

This. Exactly. And no, intent does not matter. I’ve found this sort of you’re-one-of-the-(rare)-good-ones head patting is reflexive for a lot of people when they are speaking with marginalized groups (who are all mysteriously characterized in the culture at large as angry, unstable, and illogical).

Comment #280: psammead0804  on  12/18  at  11:29 AM

If you want to scold the rest of us while also praising her - whatever.  but at least own up to it.  don’t pretend you don’t have other options.

OK.  jennygadget, calling me a jackass and worse and making up bad things I’ve supposedly said but never did isn’t going to persuade me that I should change my thinking.  If you don’t care about changing my thinking, then all you are doing is wasting everyone’s time to make yourself feel better by punching the “evil antifeminist.”  Someday I hope you grow up and realize that.

Back to the much more fruitful and thought-provoking discussion with oldfeminist:

I don’t want to be the honorary good feminist for you.  As I said before, you don’t like personalization, so don’t do it, even if you mean it to be positive.

OK, I apologize for publicly praising you.  Won’t happen again.

I really think it makes just as much sense for him to think “she would have been hit if it were okay to hit women” as “I wouldn’t have been hit if it were not okay to hit men.” He didn’t say “he had some feeling that if he had been a woman, he wouldn’t have gotten hit” as you paraphrase it.

This is a good point.  I now see that my paraphrase was inaccurate.  I still don’t read it as his blaming his friend for his getting hit.  I see it as his example of how violence against a man is more acceptable than violence against a woman, even in the mind of a drunken thug who just wants to hit someone.

Comment #281: liberalrob  on  12/18  at  01:55 PM

As Amanda says, given the Snooki incident, I think it’s more likely women are going to get hit more often rather than that men are not going to get hit more often, if men and women are going to be treated equally when it comes to violence.

That makes perfect sense, especially if chivalry is dispensed with as un-feminist as well.  One might say that the hitting of women is artificially being held down by our socialization not to do that.  If only we could extend that socialization to apply to men as well.  Calling that “feminism” would be kind of counterintuitive, however.

Comment #282: liberalrob  on  12/18  at  02:15 PM

dan&danica;:
This may be a dead thread, but I’ve got a question for you and for anybody else on the thread.  What role does the “looks like a psycho” vibe off a person play in a bully’s desire to hit somebody?  Do they gravitate towards it because it promises a higher likelihood of violence?  Or away from it because it promises a higher likelihood of violence that they won’t win?

Comment #283: seeker6079  on  12/18  at  02:49 PM
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