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Next entry: South Dakota legislators move to legalize some terrorism and domestic violence Previous entry: CPAC turns up the ugliness

The morality of feeling pleasure

ChoadsFoodSex

Thanks to elena in comments for pointing me towards this wretchedly silly article from B.R. Myers in the Atlantic, where he denounces foodies through a mish-mash of casting aspersions on people who actually enjoy their bodies, engaging in the half-baked populism of portraying people you dislike as all too wealthy to understand the no doubt earthy simplicity of the author (who, in this case, lives the working class life of the contributing editor to a prominent magazine, when not taking on his other paid blue collar work as a professor of international studies), and weakening his already-weak argument by grouping genuinely different people together in order to make them all look bad.  It’s hard to summarize his argument, but basically it goes like this: “Foodies are horrible people, because they’re all rich. Plus, some of them commit the greatest sin imaginable in modern America, which is trying to live liberal values, but they’re all lying hypocrites because others in the same vague category don’t have those liberal values.  If this doesn’t make any sense, consider this: they really like eating, which is disgusting and sensual and therefore has to be wrong.” 

Seriously, the problem with the article begins with the category “foodie”, which does encompass a fairly wide range of people, in my experience. Yes, it includes obscenely wealthy types and Anthony Bourdain types who will stuff their face with anything (no matter how unethical), but many to most foodies I know got there because they actually live their values, which made them think more about food and made them more appreciative of the pleasure it brings.  Yes, some of us are rich, but some of us got into food because we were looking for ways to save money without eating a bunch of unhealthy junk, which requires learning more about food and avoiding packaging and processing.  I’d say most foodies are probably in the middle class, not the upper classes.  And lumping people who promote sustainable food projects with Anthony Bourdain because they all like to eat is like saying that Dr. Ruth and Jenna Jameson are basically the same person.  I’m not trying to put anyone down here—-I like Bourdain, because he’s a rake and he doesn’t apologize for it, which makes him an infinitely more pleasant-sounding person than Myers—-just noting that vague categories really ought to resist these kind of highly specific criticisms that only apply to some members.

The only time Myers really sounds coherent is when he gets in a huff over the sin of gluttony, defined in this case apparently as enjoying too much.

In Medium Raw he congratulates Waters on having “made lust, greed, hunger, self-gratification and fetishism look good.” Not to everyone, perhaps, but okay.

The Roman historian Livy famously regarded the glorification of chefs as the sign of a culture in decline.

He’s quick to be clear that you don’t have to be an over-eater to be a glutton—-using the unfortunate language around fat and non-fat, but that’s his basic point—-just someone who really gets pleasure out of eating will do.  Since he ends on a note of condemning “gluttony”, it’s safe to say that’s his main point, and the yuppie-bashing and snarking about people trying, imperfectly, to open up discussions about sustainability is just so much rationalization.  Like I said, give me Bourdain trying to be provocative in his support for all meat all the time over this sort of fun-killing for the sake of it.  And suspicion of physical pleasure, of course—-he routinely implies that feeding the body somehow means one is not feeding the mind. 

[F]oodies quickly lose interest in any kind of abstract discussion. The reader is left to infer that since baser appetites are going to rule anyway, we might as well give in to them.

He should see me stuffing a homemade sandwich in my face while reading a book sometime.  Some of us do just fine in this department.  And as for “baser instincts”, I managed to grab said sandwich and greens instead of the pizza that was in the fridge, which should be physically impossible, since allowing one’s self some physical pleasure means there is no control whatsoever on the baser instincts.  Myers waves off the possibility that there is such a thing as foodies who are actually interested in sustainability and even animal rights; as someone who is a straightforward foodie by most reasonable measures, I disagree.  Yes, there is privilege in being able to eat locally, but it’s also a matter of using your privileges in a way that helps and not harms, and hopefully creates demands that will make your opportunities more available.  And I don’t eat meat.  Indeed, foodie vegetarianism or meat reduction is a widespread phenomenon that Myers waves off.  He’s too interested in creating a false dichotomy between feeling good and doing good.

It’s interesting to me how often this sort of thing crops up.  There’s a definite mentality that wants to conflate meanness and anti-pleasure thinking with morality, which is something I’ve been witnessing all day on the #thanksPPFA thread.  The contrast is stunning.  The pro-choicers and their tweets identify a fairly normal world, where pleasure is a positive thing that enhances life and complements morality.  Where having consensual, healthy, pleasurable sex is a life-affirming act, and therefore a moral one.  But the antis see the pleasure-positive values of a place like Planned Parenthood and assume immediately that it must be a den of evil, that people who start doing things like having orgasm without apology will be raping babies and killing for fun in no time, desperate for that next hit.  They’re particularly over the top on that hashtag, because they are desperate to drown out the fact that pleasure is not the lurid evil they imagine it to be, and most people who have sex for fun are happy, normal people.  And that they can be happy and normal because of it, and without a healthy sexuality, they wouldn’t have the same opportunities to live their quietly moral lives. 

I’ve always been, to paraphrase Bikini Kill, a believer in the radical possibilities of pleasure.  I think that believing that pleasure is something all people are entitled to, and that pleasure is good lays a groundwork for a real, deeper morality than the potshot-taking whining of either the dour vegan Myers* or the anti-choicers who can’t imagine that you can have permission to have sex without immediately raping children.  I think people who allow themselves sensual pleasures are less likely to be resentful and tightly wound, and are therefore less likely to express themselves immorally by lashing out at innocent people.  I also think, to use the word “sustainable” in another sense, that living by your own values is easier if you’re a pleasure-positive person.  If vegetarianism meant eating nothing but gruel all the time, with only my misanthropic self-righteousness as seasoning, then I probably wouldn’t last long.  As it stands, I’ve been a vegetarian so long I don’t remember how long it’s actually been, and it’s because I really enjoy my food.  Same with sex; I think it’s obvious by now that people who give themselves permission to enjoy sex without guilt are more likely to communicate and be honest, and less likely to behave like a family values conservative, where you spend your days as a member of the Sex Police and your nights having furtive, unprotected encounters that will result in broken hearts and often diseases spread.  And the stats bear this out, as blue zones where sex positivity has more influence tend to have lower divorce and teen pregnancy rates than red zones, where sex shaming is the norm.

*To be clear, many to most vegans are not judgmental fun-killers, and I personally find that a lot of vegan food is pleasure-oriented.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 06:55 PM • (68) Comments

My grandfather, who was never rich and always frugal, was trained in cooking by his father.  He always had a glorious garden, even in winter, which provided a lot of healthy food for the family. 

Even though he was a Calvinist at heart, he would be wondering what planet this guy came from - or dismiss anyone who thought vegetables were for rich people as a freak and an elitist.

Comment #1: Ms Kate  on  02/14  at  08:08 PM

Good gravy what a freaking blowhard.  Is he trying to make a vegetarian argument, or just railing against people having a hobby?

Comment #2: Loch Ness Monster  on  02/14  at  08:41 PM

He’s quick to be clear that you don’t have to be an over-eater to be a glutton—-using the unfortunate language around fat and non-fat, but that’s his basic point—-just someone who really gets pleasure out of eating will do.

This is extra weird to me because the closest I come to feeling “gluttonous” is usually after I’ve stopped getting pleasure out of eating. It’s the second bagel I eat because goddamnit I’m stuck reading papers all night, I want something to do with my hands, or it’s the last few bites I finish because I can’t just throw the stupid pasta away I spent money on it, or it’s me sort of dismally nibbling popcorn because someone bought it at the theater and they really want me to share it. When I’m really enjoying the food, and not just eating aimlessly, that genuine enjoyment doesn’t deserve a negative descriptor like “gluttony” at all.

Comment #3: Bagelsan  on  02/14  at  08:52 PM

Foodie bashing is among the more asinine pearl clutchings I’ve ever seen. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: “gourmet” is “look what I got”, foodie is “come here, you gotta try this”. Being a foodie is, to me at least, anti-elitist—you like to learn about things, and you like to enjoy what you learn, and furthermore you like passing on what you learn. I’m sure I’m not alone in being able to appreciate a diner with excellent banana chocolate chip pancakes along with a fancy meal at one of the top restaurants in the area; they each have their own kind of charm. Hell, it’s probably the very people Myers lambastes who are responsible for keeping Diners, Drive-ins, and Dives on the air, whether or not they like Guy Fieri. (For the record, I am a dedicated and broke-ass foodie who gets most of my fun reading cookbooks these days.)

I think the straw foodie everyone bashes is like the straw hipster—an extrapolation from a small, highly visible part of the group. Yes, there are snotty fuckups who think of food in terms of status symbols, but they aren’t the ones who are going to come back from a week in Barcelona and a trip to elBulli wondering just how they did that. (The snotty fuckups will probably never set foot in La Boqueria either, which is an epic (read crowded, grubby, undignified, and overwhelmingly awesome) food market.) When it comes right down to it, there has got to be a streak of jealousy against people who manage to have fun without becoming train wrecks. It’s the same mentality that keeps hazing going—I had to “grow up”, so do you.

BULLSHIT.

Comment #4: BrianX  on  02/14  at  09:41 PM

I spent all day knocking myself silly with super-potent tea.  I’m just as productive as I need to be, asshole…

Comment #5: shah8  on  02/14  at  09:50 PM

In my very limited experience, foodies are people who grew up growing their own vegetables, and know what they’re supposed to taste like, and that they’re not supposed to be the prettiest things ever, just tasty things.  And people who grew up with literal dirt under their fingernails are not usually the raised rich sorts.

Pleasure is a good thing, it’s what makes life worth living.  If we can’t even enjoy things that most other mammals get to enjoy, what’s the point?  Our dog loves eating tasty food and humping on her toys, I refuse to believe that my life has less meaning than hers.

Comment #6: Djinna  on  02/14  at  09:52 PM

I love how he keeps saying “Michael Pollan says A, but Anthony Bourdain says Z! This proves foodies are all hypocrites!” Everyone who writes about food is apparently a hive mind now?

Comment #7: snowmentality  on  02/14  at  09:55 PM

I don’t know Djinna, but it’s just a basic recurring theme in humanity’s story that the only way to get ahead is to be hardcore, and to force everyone to be just as hardcore as you.  Same in books that inspire revolutionaries.  Same in gangsta rap.  Gain is to be treated with suspicion.  Pain is to be ignored as normal.

Then we have all sorts of people running around with fires on their heads and bugging otherwise normal people to running around too—sometimes by setting them on fire as well!

Comment #8: shah8  on  02/14  at  10:01 PM

And by gain, I’m talking about the kind that can’t count on some scoreboard in the ether…

Comment #9: shah8  on  02/14  at  10:02 PM

I think the straw foodie argument is even worse… At no point does a foodie want to take your food away.  They want you to enjoy your food.  And I don’t buy the argument that enjoying your food is an ethical failing… That just seems to deny any sort of humanity.

Comment #10: Crissa  on  02/14  at  10:09 PM

Even though he was a Calvinist at heart, he would be wondering what planet this guy came from - or dismiss anyone who thought vegetables were for rich people as a freak and an elitist.

The way people turn against vegetables has always been so weird to me. It’s like people don’t remember that meat is actually infinitely more costly than vegetables, and the price used to reflect that. That’s why meat is still more of a side dish/seasoning in most of the world, but don’t tell that to people like this, who clearly have absolutely no privilege blinding them to such simple truths.

It’s like his entire image of food was lifted from the Food Network.

Comment #11: Cola82  on  02/14  at  10:14 PM

I’m sure I’m not alone in being able to appreciate a diner with excellent banana chocolate chip pancakes along with a fancy meal at one of the top restaurants in the area; they each have their own kind of charm.

I completely agree! I’ve been let down by fifty dollar entrées about as often as I’m let down by five dollar ones. It’s all about exploration and finding that hidden gem somewhere in town and sharing it with your friends. There aren’t a lot of great places to eat where I live, but one of my favorite things to do is introduce people to the best cup of broccoli and cheese with homemade wheat bread that they’ll ever have when they’re passing through.

http://portland.citysearch.com/profile/8445508/mcminnville_or/sage_restaurant.html

Comment #12: Cola82  on  02/14  at  10:19 PM

When it comes right down to it, there has got to be a streak of jealousy against people who manage to have fun without becoming train wrecks.

I’m not gonna lie, I can be sympathetic to this idea. I was a small child too, and I’m perfectly capable of regressing to the kind of snotty pout I had truly perfected as a preteen. Seeing other people have fun (more fun than YOU, the fuckers!) is a nice moment to slip into your petty human jealousy instincts… or it’s a good moment to be like “wow, that seems fun, how nice for them!” or “gee, I should try that, it looks awesome!”

I’m kind of perplexed that more people don’t realize, hey, I’m kind of being a sulky douche? and then stop doing it and go do something more fun. It’s not easy or anything (throwing a tantrum comes more naturally than grinning and shutting up, at least to me) but surely it’s less embarrassing than publishing a long screed about how you’re a fun-sucking wet blanket?

Comment #13: Bagelsan  on  02/14  at  10:36 PM

http://xkcd.com/150/

Comment #14: shah8  on  02/14  at  11:03 PM

Human beings being universally wired for sexual pleasure and gustatory pleasure and other forms of unmarketable enjoyment flies in the face of the central right wing belief that one must be elect and privileged to enjoy the finer things in life.  If just anybody enjoys sex or food, it must be an immoral thing.  Enjoyment is reserved and given by God to the fortunate only! It isn’t fair if people have fun without buying things and owning things and dominating things!  It isn’t allowed! God says only I get to enjoy life because I’m special.

Or something like that.

Comment #15: Ms Kate  on  02/14  at  11:26 PM

This is, of course, one of a piece with the story we had a couple of week ago about the guy who blogged about how he cheated on the application to get food stamps and then demonstrated how they’ll let those people buy anything with food stamps by blowing it all at Whole Foods.

Comment #16: sacundim  on  02/14  at  11:34 PM

The Roman historian Livy famously regarded the glorification of chefs as the sign of a culture in decline.

I haven’t read Livy, but this is such a persistent wingnut meme: that public recognition of anybody connected with the arts or with making life more pleasant is a sign of “a culture in decline.” We should all instead be looking up to warhawks and religious charlatans and, of course, body-hating ascetics.

Cola82, vegetables are coded as feminine. I think Amanda has written about that before. So they draw the ire of wingnuts and quasi-wingnuts like Myers.

Comment #17: Nobody in Particular  on  02/15  at  12:28 AM

This is key…

“living by your own values is easier if you’re a pleasure-positive person”

And if you’re pleasure-negative, living by your own values is difficult.  With only the promise of Hell to motivate, and those nagging doubts, you need laws to encourage you.  Just in case.  Too bad if laws apply to everyone.  It’s for their own good.

Comment #18: plaindave  on  02/15  at  01:31 AM

Sharing two parts of a comment by one “rwordplay”:

“Those mentioned have, through their fetishization and exhibitionism, ruined the opportunity for true discovery, uniqueness and quiet, which is the most fertile ground of wit and other natural treasures. Here I agree completely with Aquinas’ observation, namely that gluttony leads to “loutishness, uncleanness, talkativeness, and an uncomprehending dullness of mind.” “

“Of course, this note reveals the snob in me, and yes, I hate the “democratization” of the table, for the same reason all snobs do—the commoditization of pleasure destroys pleasure and replaces it with a simulacrum, in a word noise. I was lucky to have a true gourmand as a father. It killed him and left him more gargoyle than corpse, but there’s no doubt the pleasures he enjoyed—and introduced to me—were as authentic as they were unpublished. I’m afraid his was the last generation who both knew how to eat and keep its mouth shut.”

What amuses me is that this is exactly the kind of person that Myers is complaining about in the first place. People like this are the worst kind of “Stop Having Fun Guys” guys—something critical to their worldview requires that things feel special and private to be authentic. This person is essentially trying to justify their own hedonism by saying that most people simply can’t appreciate it, especially when spreading the pleasure around. Something tells me if “rwordplay” was a cooking teacher, they’d be one of those Escoffier fundamentalists who thinks haute cuisine should have ended with the Guide Culinaire, and would probably shit bricks teabagger style if they knew that Escoffier was actually something of a radical who would have preferred to ditch roux entirely and use arrowroot or cornstarch in sauces…

Comment #19: BrianX  on  02/15  at  01:32 AM

Another point about “eat and keep its mouth shut” in particular: not only do I fail to see this as a virtue, but it amounts to a net negative for the corpus of human knowledge. A small one, yes but a decidedly dickish one.

At one point a few years ago, a number of French chefs were trying to get UNESCO to declare French cuisine as an international treasure of some sort, as if it was somehow a precious, endangered jewel instead of the best-documented cuisine in the world. My response was a blog post with a picture of every French cookbook I owned at the time—some Julia Child, some Joel Robuchon, my Escoffier, a bit here, a bit there—laid out on the floor saying “this is how you preserve a cuisine”. And so that’s what foodies do. I tried a somewhat lowly Chilean steak sandwich called a chacarero years ago at a walkup stand in Boston; I’m never in the area when that place is open, but now I make them at home. “rwordplay” would have me keep this to myself. Well, myself and the crowds of financial district lunch hunters who go in there every day…

Comment #20: BrianX  on  02/15  at  01:43 AM

I was going to say that “no one likes other people to tell them how to live their life”, but only half a second’s thought told me that that’s untrue.  Some people crave that.  Maybe people don’t like their lives being judged by people that they think are not one of “them”.  And the flipside, people love judging other people, even when those people are doing the same things as the judger.

Comment #21: Jake  on  02/15  at  01:47 AM

Oh, and I like Brian’s definitions of gourmet and foodie.  Nice.

Comment #22: Jake  on  02/15  at  01:48 AM

Willful ignorance is the sign of a culture in decline, not enjoying your food.  This rant isn’t even coherent. 

Pretty much everybody’s a foodie in France, Italy, Vietnam and Singapore, to name 4 countries whose love of food has nothing to do with their politics or socioeconomic status.  There are societies where people are obsessed with food and societies where they are not.  It has nothing to do with politics.  It might have quite a bit to do with quality of life, though.

A life-changingly good banh mi sandwich will run you under $6.  Picking a banh mi sandwich instead of a Double Down (TM) sandwich-like product IS a political act.  And the banh mi’s not a vote for the status quo OR the bourgeoise.

There is a certain segment of society that simply cannot accept the fact that there are people who manage to live their life without self-loathing.  The choice between eating well or not is really a choice whether to hate yourself or not.  There are people all over the world who eat way better than you, and for cheaper.  The choice is whether you hate yourself or not, and whether you pay a lot or not for the privilege.  There are dining options at all four corners of that punnet square.

Comment #23: Angry Geometer  on  02/15  at  02:06 AM

It’s funny, because I’m not exactly quite there on being a foodie, largely through lack of time that is not likely to go away. However… the way I am about my coffee!

I found a place where I can buy the raw, unroasted coffee beans. Usually they roast them for their customers at the store, but I don’t. I have a special pot at home. The only thing that ever goes in that pot is coffee. I roast it on the stovetop, grind it (soon I’ll have a hand grinder for Turkish coffee), and just add coffee to water, heat, and enjoy. Love it!

I could get them to roast it for me. It would be more even, and probably better. But I like roasting it myself. My wife snagged a free papaya tree, and we could probably actually buy better papayas (we’re really close to an amazing veggie store), but that we grew them ourselves is more important to us.

I love the way I make coffee because I love the process of making coffee this way. I love cooking, but don’t spend as much time as I could at it, but I enjoy what I do. I love eating the food I cook, I love cooking for my family and having them enjoy it. Tomorrow I turn 34 and my son turns two, and instead of going out I am going to cook a nicer meal than usual because I like it.

If you love food, enjoy your food! Is it now morally wrong to actually enjoy what you do?

Comment #24: Matthew, Patron Saint of Affogato  on  02/15  at  03:49 AM

TWITTER TRAP


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2578/4010823295_96ef45ed1b_z.jpg?zz=1


let them have a GOOD LOOK at the CORNFIELD….

Comment #25: kingmab2002  on  02/15  at  04:42 AM

Off Topic

I saw this clip today and thought it was a great example of a pickup artist (NSFW)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xorvPO6K78s

The entire thing is worth it but the first 3 minutes are good enough to show how the shallow pickup artists and MRA think

Comment #26: Renmiri  on  02/15  at  05:45 AM

Said Amanda:

Living by your own values is easier if you’re a pleasure-positive person.

[vigorous assent]

Comment #27: catfood  on  02/15  at  08:24 AM

This is so stupid. No, offensive. No, stupid and offensive.

Apparently there is NO guiltfree food. Don’t eat starch and sugar - that’s unhealthy and thus immoral (because not being ill is now a virtue rather than a circumstance). Don’t eat meat - it destroys the environment and is cruel to animals. Don’t eat food that’s been transported from far away - that destroys the environment, too (this rules out almost every vegetable except, like, carrots for me). Don’t eat fast food - that’s lazy. But don’t be a home-cooking vegetarian eating only local vegetables either, because that’s too fancy, and who do you think you are daring to have morals like that and make everyone else feel bad, like you’re so much better? But don’t “slip” either - if you’re conscious at all about food-related issues you don’t get to not be a home-cooking local-eating vegetarian who never ever gives in and orders a pizza, because now you are a hypocrite! And that’s bad too!

Apparantly, no matter what I eat, I cause bad feelings and global warming. And it’s all my fault. Because I eat. Now, if only I could break myself of this disgusting habit…

Yeah, no wonder people get eating disorders.

Comment #28: phoenix  on  02/15  at  09:18 AM

Of course they completely got the quote out of context and misunderstood the whole point Livy was making:

“The army from Asia introduced a foreign luxury to Rome; it was then the meals began to require more dishes and more expenditure . . . the cook, who had up to that time been employed as a slave of low price, become dear: what had been nothing but a métier was elevated to an art.”

So he wasn’t railing against cooking or cooks in and of themselves.  He was being a xenophobe.  Which would fit much better into the rightwing world view than just bitching about people enjoying good food.

Comment #29: speedbudget  on  02/15  at  09:35 AM

One more datapoint for the hypothesis that a disturbingly large number of people suffer from a profound hatred of and distaste for the simple biological facts of their own humanity…

Comment #30: Dunc  on  02/15  at  09:45 AM

People like this are Griefers. They lack creativity and enjoyment and have very limited lives for the most part, so they gain satisfaction from trashing and destroying what others create and enjoy.  Only they do it in a cowardly fashion, like people who haunt certain games destroying things that others build, but would not likely have the gonads to do the same in the physical world.

Comment #31: Ms Kate  on  02/15  at  10:07 AM

Can we possibly convince our troll friend above to take up fasting as a religious practice - like, full time?

Comment #32: Ms Kate  on  02/15  at  10:09 AM

It seems B R Meyers is making the argument that anything that miight give you pleasure in this life is somehow bad.  My guess is that he is saving his pleasures for his next life and anyone who is attempting to enjoy a worldly life is by definition bad. 

It’s the the Ross Douchehat method where you start with an assumption that in your world applies to everyone and then you use it to Bash everyone who doesn’t share your fantasy.

Comment #33: John Rove  on  02/15  at  10:47 AM

Man, I’m really glad I’m a liberal, so I don’t have to constantly be obsessing over other peoples’ sex lives.

Comment #34: twg_  on  02/15  at  11:46 AM

At first I thought it was weird that Myers was striking out like this. The guy rose to prominence with an essay assailing literary fiction. Which, I’d assumed, his complaints were that it was boring, self-serious and not any fun. But looking at Myers’ Atlantic essay ripping into a Denis Johnson book, he doesn’t complain that Johnson is no fun, he complains that Johnson writes badly and rips into him at length for it.

I don’t know as I disagree with his general point, that a lot of hyped literary fiction is overrated, but it’s the same sorta thing. It doesn’t put the pleasure of the reader at the center, it puts the scorn of the Myers there.

Comment #35: witless chum  on  02/15  at  12:06 PM

Meyer’s article isn’t really anything new, he’s just riding that old Republican hobby horse of anti-elitism, this time in the guise of people who enjoy food.  As soon as I started reading the article, I knew I would he would throw down the elitism word with the same derisive tone that was used to criticize President Obama during the presidential election, and Meyers did not disappoint.

Of course this all just feeds back into the Republican trope that they are the steadfast, true, salt of the earth real Americans.  Never mind that much of the Republican party is populated by Ivy League educated, super rich types who are the actual elite in this country.  But no, because they eschew thoughtful discourse and anything pleasurable like eating good food, drinking good wine, or heaven forfend, sex they are anti-elites.

Comment #36: Lolagirl  on  02/15  at  12:16 PM

Amanda, have you read his piece “Hard to Swallow”? It was a lot more to the point, and I am wondering what your thoughts were on it.  There is a valid point to be made criticizing the growing culture of food that values moral consideration when it means spending more money, but not when it means actually avoiding specific foods—the kind of food enthusiast who thinks it’s a crime to buy conventional factory-farmed meat, but that actually giving up shrimp, caviar, fois gras, or veal is crossing the line into pleasure-hating extremism. 

Not to say that I have a problem with people who have no interest in giving up any foods but see buying meat from family farms as something they can realistically do to reduce their impact.  But I frequently encounter people like this who think there is something WRONG with somebody who does give up problematic foods.  Omnivore’s Dilemma took this tone at times.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2007/09/hard-to-swallow/6123/

Comment #37: mamram  on  02/15  at  12:41 PM

Thanks for the link, mamram.  One quote from that article indicates to me that Pollan confuses the usual definitions of spirit and soul, thinking they are the same:

“But by reducing man’s moral nature to an extension of our instincts, Pollan is free to present his appetite as a sort of moral-o-meter, the final authority for judging the rightness of all things culinary.” 

Generally, spirit is considered the life force, the animating principle, what we want to do because we’re good at it or equipped for it, often but not always physical.  In that sense we may have a meat-eating “spirit” because we’re equipped for it and it tastes good. 

Soul is somewhat less tied up with the body, it is related to reflection, analysis, the intellect and the emotions (which we now know do relate to the body, so this isn’t a pure concept in reality).  Your soul may consider eating meat harmful because of the pain and suffering it causes other animals.  This could override the spirit’s desire for meat and make it taste unappetizing.

I’m not saying this is the best or only way to interpret things, but it makes a distinction between what we want and what we want to want.

Comment #38: oldfeminist  on  02/15  at  02:03 PM

It seems B R Meyers is making the argument that anything that miight give you pleasure in this life is somehow bad.  My guess is that he is saving his pleasures for his next life and anyone who is attempting to enjoy a worldly life is by definition bad. 

Maybe he’s the sort of extremist who thinks there are 69 virgins waiting for him in heaven ...

Comment #39: Ms Kate  on  02/15  at  02:17 PM

@phoenix

To be honest, nothing in life is guilt-free (or at least suffering-free- it’s up to you whether you flagellate yourself for existing). I can accept that pretty much every one of my actions has a negative effect on somebody else’s wellbeing without posting screeds trying to justify hating myself or others for having the gall to enjoy life, though.

And Myers didn’t even give good reasons for why we apparently shouldn’t enjoy our food (imo, exploited foreign labour and ecological impact are reasonable arguments, because they reduce the pleasure of other beings): he bought into the idea that it’s bad BECAUSE it gives us pleasure, which is just ridiculous neo-puritan schlock.

Comment #40: Treefinger  on  02/15  at  02:36 PM

It’s like his entire image of food was lifted from the Food Network.

Actually, from recent anthologies of food writings, and other books on food. Apparently he seldom comes to the US to view our actual culture on the ground. God knows what he eats when he’s at home.

B.R. Myers—a professor of North Korean literature in South Korea—cannot be easily slotted into the left/right wing continuum. One of his ideas is that N.K. fits the description of a right-wing tyranny, which makes US right wingers rebel.

Comment #41: Hector B.  on  02/15  at  03:23 PM

Hector:

It’s not entirely an unwarranted description actually. Although juche is fundamentally leftwing in conception, North Korea is to all intents and purposes a highly conformist hereditary monarchy, which are both right-wing characteristics; Stalinism was a similar situation where a leftist philosophy (at least in name) was combined with right-wing tactics. If you look at Bob Altemeyer’s The Authoritarians, right wing authoritarianism isn’t necessarily right-wing politically—the concept as he describes it refers to an authoritarianism imposed from the top down. Although he doesn’t discuss any concept of left-wing authoritarianism, I’d be inclined to describe it as populist authoritarianism—the leadership relies on its constituents to maintain support for the regime, which would probably apply for example to the French Reign of Terror.

All this really proves is that methods and ideology don’t always line up in any coherent fashion—right wing authoritarianism tends to gravitate towards right-wing politics, but there are exceptions. Myers, when he describes juche as right-wing, is getting the two confused, though he’s not entirely wrong.

He still doesn’t get foodies though.

Comment #42: BrianX  on  02/15  at  03:37 PM

People like this are the worst kind of “Stop Having Fun Guys” guys—something critical to their worldview requires that things feel special and private to be authentic.

Also known as, “I used to like that band, but they suck now that they’re not just mine.”

Comment #43: Dr. Squid  on  02/15  at  04:21 PM

Hard-nosed Christians do exist in Korea in a large number, though many of them immigrate to the US.

Comment #44: Crissa  on  02/15  at  05:45 PM

He still doesn’t get foodies though.

I don’t get foodies either, actually. But I try to live by Bob Dylan’s dictum—“don’t criticize what you can’t understand”.

That said, I’m a lot more interested in food POLICY than I am in people’s eating CHOICES. Our public discourse could probably use less discussion of heirloom tomatoes and more discussion of corn subsidies.

Comment #45: Dilan Esper  on  02/15  at  06:10 PM

“The army from Asia introduced a foreign luxury to Rome; it was then the meals began to require more dishes and more expenditure . . . the cook, who had up to that time been employed as a slave of low price, become dear: what had been nothing but a métier was elevated to an art.”

So he wasn’t railing against cooking or cooks in and of themselves.  He was being a xenophobe.


The scorn luxury and xenophobia often go hand in hand especially considering the stereotypes of wealth and decadence that clung to Eastern nations like Egypt, Persia, an India. Livy was a contemporary of Virgil and like Virgil his writings were a way to set down what was Roman and Proper from everything else that was pouring into the empire at that time (see myth of Western Culture.) But where as Livy fought the shifting of his world with several volumes culminating the great deeds of his ancestors, Myer thinks it’s sufficient to quibble about the personal eating habits of people he doesn’t want to be associated with.

Comment #46: scrumby  on  02/15  at  06:33 PM

You’re absolutely right that the very IMPETUS to become a foodie can be the quest for healthy, frugal, and ethical dietary choices.  Until I started getting terrible intestinal maladies in college, my idea of a night out was two double-double In & Out burgers, hold the vegetables, or maybe a Carl’s Jr. Double Western Bacon Combo.  Once I was more or less forced to go vegan, I had to learn how to cook and broaden my palate, which made me discover a new world of flavors.  Now I get a lot more joy out of eating than ever (though I do sometimes dream about In & Out burgers).

Comment #47: Dan Collins  on  02/15  at  07:35 PM

What would Livy know about societies in decline anyhow? He died early in the reign of Tiberius, at the very dawn of Pax Romana. It would be 200 years before the “decline” even started and 450 untill the last Emperor in the West.

Comment #48: Alden  on  02/15  at  07:43 PM

I have a modicum of grudging respect for the conservatives who deny themselves earthly pleasure.  They’re at least walking their fucked-up talk.  The ones who really frost me are conservative elitists who have their fun while imposing a harsh moral code on us peons.

Comment #49: DonnaDiva  on  02/15  at  09:24 PM

@49

What the fuck Alden? Livy was born in 64 B.C.E. Maybe it wasn’t even remotely the decline of Rome but after living through forty years of civil war so bloody and vicious it sent populations from Egypt to Gaul into turmoil, I’m inclined to give a man a little slack on his prognostications of doom.

Comment #50: scrumby  on  02/15  at  10:28 PM

fer dawg’s sake, he’s a vegan (I think; at least a vegetarian), so he’s not against vegetables. he’s against people who justify unethical behavior by the aesthetic/sensory sensations those behaviors yield. you may disagree with his definition of unethical (which i don’t, and I suspect most feminists would have a hard time doing if pressed, cf. egofeminism), but can you really dispute his main point? I don’t think so.

Comment #51: lifelongactivist  on  02/16  at  06:21 AM

yikes ECO not EGOfeminism. (!)  not to mention the huge amount of gender violence perpetrated on animals (rape racks, etc.) to create meat and dairy products.

Comment #52: lifelongactivist  on  02/16  at  06:24 AM

BR Myers is also a literary critic who dismantled a certain breed of macho / sexist (e.g., Delillo, McCarthy) writing in his book A Reader’s Manifesto. You may not agree with his points in this realm either, but if you read it, it’s clear he is not the bargain basement cultural conservative / Neanderthal / ascetic / Calvinist some are making him out to be.

Comment #53: lifelongactivist  on  02/16  at  06:28 AM

I’m sorry.  I thought that’s what the whole article and comment thread were doing, was disputing his main point.  I don’t even think vegetables were mentioned in this essay, except in passing.

Comment #54: speedbudget  on  02/16  at  09:44 AM

Well, lifelongactivist, unfortunately for Myers, arguments for ethical veganism, ecofeminism and against macho pomo literature are not in the article. What’s in the article is incoherent, finger-wagging, anti-pleasure scolding, which is being very successfully disputed by Amanda in her post and in the comment thread. Furthermore, ecofeminism does not = all feminists and, while there’s a lot to be criticized about meat/dairy production practices, animals are not women, so talk of “gender violence” and “rape” in that context is actually offensive to many feminists, myself included.

I was actually surprised to find out that Myers is a vegan, because I know many vegans and vegetarians and they are all foodies. The idea that ethics and pleasure are always incompatible is completely bizarre. After reading his silly rant, I couldn’t help but picture Myers grimly gnawing a block of firm tofu (silken would be too easy to chew and we don’t want ethics to be easy) unseasoned, of course (making it taste good would distract from feelings of moral superiority). Meanwhile, my veg friends are happily munching and sharing all kinds of delicious goodies and seeking out great veggie restaurants, unethical hypocrites that they are! smile

Comment #55: elena  on  02/16  at  12:12 PM

speedbudget - some commenters have said he is antivegetable.

elena - appreciate the thoughtful reply, and acknowledgement of the problems with factory food production. I don’t want to offend you or anyone, but you don’t have to believe that “women = animals” to recognize the common root of violence and exploitation. It leads, for instance, to the justification of the oppression of women by “reducing” them to animal status (bitch, cow, etc.); and it’s also true that it’s often the specific female reproductive capabilities (egg and fetus production, lactation) (or lack of them, in the case of veal calves) that are targeted by the animal industry.

The story gets far uglier the deeper you get into the details of what goes on at factory farms, but I will spare you.

here’s a writer who does a great job of elucidating the various intersections:  http://texts.pattricejones.info/

I thought Myers’s message was pretty straightforward and well written. You obviously disagree, but even though your statement “the idea that ethics and pleasure are always incompatible is completely bizarre,” is obviously right, I’m not sure why you’re implicitly defending that attitude. I agree with Myers that people should learn to govern their pleasures that are derived unethically. And I thought it was implicit to feminism or any social justice movement, that privileged people have an obligation to at least try to let their privileges (which are quite pleasurable, in many cases) go in the cause of justice.

The idea of Myers grimly gnawing his block of tofu is humorous, and I hope for his sake that’s not the case. i don’t know him and can’t speak for him, and it may be that he is an ascetic. BUT the target of his article was clearly to attack one of the main justifications for eating meat and dairy produced cruelly and exploitively. (Perhaps he should have been clearer on this.) And while it’s true that meat production is hardest on the animals, let’s not forget that it’s also incredibly and unacceptably hard on its workers (among the most exploited in all industries) and local environments. (Ag companies are among the foremost proponents of “free trade,” because they are looking for fresh communities to exploit and poison even more than they can here in the US.)  I don’t believe most people reading this blog would justify buying clothes made by oppressed children just because it was so fabulous looking, so why would they use a similar justification to buy food made even more unethically?

It’s a simple idea, and judging from the response here and elsewhere he clearly hit a nerve.

Comment #56: lifelongactivist  on  02/16  at  12:59 PM

The best thing a ‘possum does is fill an empty belly.” -Paul Lawrence Dunbar

Comment #57: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  02/16  at  01:05 PM

elena: I know a couple of vegans who aren’t foodies, and it’s kinda sad. But I think they would not be good eaters of food even if they were carnivores.

I think in a way that some of this discussion mirrors the reaction to Amanda’s post a while back about hipster-hating, and that Myers’s issues are grounded in the same difficulties with distinguishing eclectisicism as genuine enjoyment and eclecticism as adopted status marker.

Comment #58: paul  on  02/16  at  01:11 PM

lifelongactivist:

I’m sorry, all I see in that article is paragraph after paragraph of emotional appeal and “ew ew ew”. That’s not an argument; it’s a religious homily.

Comment #59: BrianX  on  02/16  at  02:46 PM

(Believe it or not, some of us are actually at peace with the idea of keeping and killing animals for food, even though many of us agree that factory farming as currently practiced is a blight. For us, the focus is less on the ethics of eating meat itself and more on the matter of eliminating pointless cruelty and reducing environmental impact.)

Comment #60: BrianX  on  02/16  at  02:50 PM

lifelongactivist @57, I also appreciate what you’re trying to say, even if I disagree. I read somewhere that Myers largely recycled this article from a pro-vegan article that he wrote a few years back that actually addressed the the ethical issues of eating meat. Not having read that article, I don’t know if it was any more coherent, but all I see here is “ewww, foodie, elitist, hypocrite!!1!” But even if you take all that away, and accept that the underlying argument is anti-cruelty, it also doesn’t work for me.

Myers is completely discounting the possibility of an ethically sound standpoint that factory farming animals is cruel and damaging to the environment and workers, but that the answer to that is not going vegan, but supporting small local farms. He sets himself up a strawfoodie to rail against, when in reality I don’t think many foodies say “gee factory farming is awful, those poor baby cows, but veal tastes good, so whatev.” They either, like Bourdain, say “I don’t care about factory farming” or, like Pollan, say “factory farming is awful and this is what we should do instead.” Bourdain might be a giant asshole (I like him, but his anti-vegan rants are totally out of line), but he’s not a hypocrite, and neither is Pollan. 

Furthermore, I think Myers is demanding the kind of moral purity that’s not possible, short of not eating at all. Large-scale veg and soy farming is hugely environmentally damaging and rife with worker abuse. Even for my vegan friends, leading a completely vegan lifestyle is almost impossible (e.g. there’s leather in your car, vegan shoes are often too expensive, animals die from pesticides used in farming veg, etc.). So I agree with Amanda that this kind of grim insistence on moral purity makes it more difficult to lead an ethical life.

Re: ecofeminism, I remember doing a small section on it in one of my grad school feminist theory courses, and it just doesn’t quite click for me. I understand the language they are trying to highlight, as it is also very similar in intent to the “woman = nature” discourse that was used in the 18th and 19th centuries. I think it’s interesting from the standpoint of theory, as in “isn’t it interesting how the same language is used…,” but that’s where it stops for me. Yes, women are reduced to animals in a lot of patriarchal discourse, but I don’t think the answer to that is elevating animals/animal suffering to women/gender oppression. I do agree that factory farming is appalling, but I think there needs to be a separate language around it that doesn’t compare what goes on to rape. The tendency to compare anything and everything to rape leads to trivializing and minimizing rape itself (the act and the power of the word).

Comment #61: elena  on  02/16  at  03:53 PM

When I was a child I asked my dad why he’s such a good cook. His answer: Because I like to eat.

I recently realized that I could be considered a foodie. I love trying new foods, love cooking and eating. And I’m certain neither wealthy nor elitest.  If I had a yard I’d grow some fruits and vegetables for home use. I tend to use recipes for inspiration rather than for instructions.

I don’t get why my daughter refuses to learn to cook, though I respect her decision since it’s her life.

I also believe that we are meant to enjoy our lives, and one of the simpler ways of doing that is by eating good (both healthy and tasty) food!

Comment #62: Pope Thorn Iv  on  02/16  at  05:08 PM

Elena - what a pleasure to dialog with you.

I believe you’re right - Myers is discounting local farms as the answer because like me is believes killing animals for food is wrong. (I believe I’m right about his viewpoints; don’t know them definitively.) However, he is definitely not setting up a strawfoodie - he cites several examples, many of whom are best-sellers indicating that their viewpoint is admired, if not emulated 100%, and uses their own words to hang them.

he also cites extreme examples of people saying they’ll spend all week working to create the perfect dish - or flying to Paris - which is not the case for many people who simply enjoy and revel in their food. I suspect he wouldn’t have much of a problem with the foodies here at Pandagon, except for the meat and dairy consumption. 

the “asceticism” argument here is a bit of a red herring anyway. It is polarizing/dichotomizing/etc., to say that there are only two possibilities: total indulgence or total deprivation. There are plenty of choices in between. so this in my view is a cop-out: “So I agree with Amanda that this kind of grim insistence on moral purity makes it more difficult to lead an ethical life. ” As vegan cookbook author Colleen Patrick Goudreau says, vegans are the ones who try.

it is absolutely true that vegans can go crazy trying to be pure. This is not necessarily because they’re anal but because they know exactly where, for instance, the leather in the car comes from, and they are trying not to participate in what they consider evil. That’s because they watch movies like this one http://meatvideo.com/ which many people who judge them will choose not to watch, or having watched, will choose to deny the feelings that arise. People who refuse to understand the details - the sheer torment and exploitation on every level - that go into making the leather seat they covet have no business judging those who do, and who struggle with making the tough choices that ensue, especially when those tough choices arise from the same capitalism and patriarchy that we decry in other spheres. One of the hallmarks of liberalism, I believe, is that we do not have the luxury, the way conservatives do, to create externalities or to deprecate social justice movements we find inconvenient or less compelling to ourselves personally. MLK says injustice anywhere leads to injustice everywhere, and I for one believe it.

re ecofeminism, you are probably better informed than I am. I agree with Peter Singer and others who have picked apart the roots of speciesist thinking (animals are dumber than us, etc.) and expose them as flawed. The key question is whether they suffer as we do, and the answer is, (a) yes, and (b) if we don’t know the moral thing is to err on the side of caution. This is a big topic, and I’m sensitive to your issues with rape language, and perhaps could be persuaded on this point. But I would like to respectfully remind you that the torture of a sentient being is not “anything and everything.”

Comment #63: lifelongactivist  on  02/17  at  01:29 PM

BrianX - 

>Believe it or not, some of us are actually at peace with the idea of keeping and killing animals for food

As if I said anything to imply that the entire, vast “humane slaughter” movement didn’t exist.

And such a thrill to come to a feminist site and be accused by a guy of “emotional appeal and “ew ew ew”.”  Suggest you study this thread closely:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/02/feminist_hypersensitivity_or_m.php

Comment #64: lifelongactivist  on  02/17  at  01:39 PM

lifelongactivist:

I don’t know if you’re male or female, and I really don’t care. Furthermore, I’m not accusing you of that, I’m describing the logical fallacies of the author of the original article.

And veganism is asceticism, and Goudreau is a particularly egregious offender because she pretends she isn’t but can’t avoid putting asides in her books that are redundant to vegans and annoying to people who aren’t. I have her vegan baking book, and although I like the recipes (I bought it mostly out of interest in the food science involved) her writing reads like someone who constantly has to convince herself she’s right.

Comment #65: BrianX  on  02/17  at  02:58 PM

I know Colleen PG and she radiates joy and abundance (not to mention, benevolence) on every level. I suspect most people who are open to veganism don’t mind her cookbook asides - and most vegans also don’t mind her asides because they know they are there for a reason. I think you are misinterpreting her goal, which is advocating for veganism via the palate, or underestimating the difficulty of achieving it, because she actually does a terrific job.

Moreover, here are some definitions of ascetic:
# the doctrine that through renunciation of worldly pleasures it is possible to achieve a high spiritual or intellectual state
# austerity: the trait of great self-denial (especially refraining from worldly pleasures)
# rigorous self-denial and active self-restraint
None mentions abstinence for ethical reasons. Ethics must be an exclusion because it’s an entirely different motive, and if it weren’t than any abstinence from even the most egregious evils would be consdered ascetism. True, you can be both, but vegan /= acetic.

One difference between us is that I took the trouble to look you up and confirm that you were a guy, whereas you didn’t bother to look me up and find out whether I’m male or female. And, in fact, you say you don’t care. That lack of caring - as evidenced by a willingness to shoot from the hip and generalize from your own opinions - probably comes across more than you think. Others may feel differently, but in my view coming to a feminist blog and denigrating someone’s opinions by calling them overemotional (in a mocking way, yet) is not only a weak argument, but somewhat missing the point.

Comment #66: lifelongactivist  on  02/17  at  03:42 PM

“Emotional appeal” is the technical name of an informal logical fallacy, and ironically has nothing to do with the emotional state of the person invoking it; in fact, it’s often very calculated. I don’t think that applies in Myers’ case; I think he’s sincere, but wrong. (I don’t remember the proper name of “ew ew ew”, but it’s the same impulse that makes homophobes think gay sex is wrong just because it personally grosses them out.)

As for why I don’t care about your gender—why should I? It doesn’t make you any more or less correct. What matters is what’s being typed on the screen, not the identity of the person typing them. If you’re right, you’re right; if you’re wrong, you’re wrong.

Finally, regarding Ms Patrick Boudreau—she may be the nicest person in the world, and she actually does seem to be. But the asides we’re talking about make her look rather insecure in her beliefs, and she may not even realize it. In fact, with a few exceptions (Mark Bittman, Moosewood) I prefer to avoid vegetarian/vegan cookbooks because a lot of them are like that. It is neither convincing nor welcoming, especially when there are books about vegetarianism that aren’t per se cookbooks that say exactly the same things.

Comment #67: BrianX  on  02/17  at  05:09 PM
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