Next entry: REAGAN HIGH FOOTBALL RULES
Previous entry: Go ahead and enjoy fashion a little
UPDATE: the openly gay president of People for the American Way, Kathryn Kolbert, has released a statement. It’s below the fold.
You could see this coming, and this is what I’m talking about when you ignore the elephant in the room. Rod McCullom of Rod 2.0 blogs reports on the escalation of the “blame the blacks” meme that has been swirling about the blogosphere and the MSM.
A number of Rod 2.0 and Jasmyne Cannick readers report being subjected to taunts, threats and racist abuse at last night’s marriage equality rally in Los Angeles.
Geoffrey, a student at UCLA and regular Rod 2.0 reader, joined the massive protest outside the Temple of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Westwood. Geoffrey was called the n-word at least twice.
It was like being at a klan rally except the klansmen were wearing Abercrombie polos and Birkenstocks. YOU NIGGER, one man shouted at men. If your people want to call me a FAGGOT, I will call you a nigger. Someone else said same thing to me on the next block near the temple...me and my friend were walking, he is also gay but Korean, and a young WeHo clone said after last night the niggers better not come to West Hollywood if they knew what was BEST for them.
Los Angeles resident and Rod 2.0 reader A. Ronald says he and his boyfriend, who are both black, were carrying NO ON PROP 8 signs and still subjected to racial abuse.
Three older men accosted my friend and shouted, “Black people did this, I hope you people are happy!” A young lesbian couple with mohawks and Obama buttons joined the shouting and said there were “very disappointed with black people” and “how could we” after the Obama victory. This was stupid for them to single us out because we were carrying those blue NO ON PROP 8 signs! I pointed that out and the one of the older men said it didn’t matter because “most black people hated gays” and he was “wrong” to think we had compassion. That was the most insulting thing I had ever heard. I guess he never thought we were gay.
The backlash is upon us, and it’s going to get uglier unless our organizations step forward and say something. The desire to scapegoat blacks for Prop 8’s defeat has exposed the now not-so-latent racism in our movement.
I have already blogged a lot about why the lack of effective communication (and I’m not even talking about outreach on gay issues to socially conservative blacks) between white people in general and people of color. That dearth of understanding and mutual respect for difference, and lack of desire to seek common ground through personal relationships ultimately leads to what we are seeing here.
More below the fold.
On the matter of the blame game, Alex Blaze has an excellent post over at Bilerico that tries to poke at the anger directed at the black community (as you read above, it didn’t matter if you were black and gay—it was hurled at him because he represented The Other regardless of his allegiance to the gay community).
But I’m wondering why these folks are so caught up in the black voters, who obviously can’t ever be persuaded on this issue because… well, because. There are so many other groups in the exit polling that voted for Prop 8 overwhelmingly (as in, more than 60%):
* The elderly (65+)
* Republicans
* Conservatives
* People who decided for whom to vote in October (but not within the week before the election)
* People who were contacted by the McCain campaign
* Protestants
* Catholics
* White Protestants
* Those who attend church weekly
* Married people
* People with children under 18
* Gun owners
* Bush voters
* Offshore drilling supporters
* People who are afraid of a terrorist attack
* People who thought their family finances were better now than 4 years ago
* Supporters of the war against Iraq
* People who didn’t care about the age of the candidates
* Anti-choicers
* People who are from the “Inland/Valley” region of California
* McCain voters
Some of these groups supported Prop 8 far more than African Americans did, which makes me wonder why we’re focused so much on race instead of any of these factors. In terms of predictive value, religion, political ideology, and being married with children tell us much more about how someone voted on Prop 8 than race does.
From which we can infer three things. First, breaking the statistics just along racial lines is an overly simplistic way to look at the results. Black people, like white people, are not a monolithic group, and LGBT people can make inroads by reaching out to African Americans if we try. Flapping our mouths about how we’re not PC, how all blacks are homophobic, and how there’s no use in reaching out to African Americans doesn’t endear people to us, and there is work to be done here that hasn’t been done.
Second, religion is the overwhelming factor in Prop 8’s win, in terms of organizing, funding, and voting. Since it’s not going anywhere, we have to take a more serious approach to religious voters. And, yes, their leaders make bank off homophobia, but we’re going to have to be more creative. No writing off fundies as idiots allowed - they get votes too.
It saddens me that there is so much work to do to heal these wounds on both sides. As I’ve said, being a triple minority is a challenge because we are often rendered invisible by each tribe we belong to when our existence becomes inconvenient or challenges their biases.
You cannot continue to ignore this elephant in the room. What is painful is seeing the how easily I am marginalized in any of the identities I inhabit. There is nothing to gain in slicing our movement up in this manner because we’re all hurting. Reading through the comments of my posts (here and here) about the outcome of Prop 8, it’s pretty clear some of you either conveniently forgot my commitment to LGBT rights as a matter of self-interest or have never read my vast archive of criticism of homophobia in the black community. The knee-jerk response in the wake of the painful passage of the initiative was that fast and that irrational.
You know what? This reminds me of the Freeper reaction to Condi Rice making mildly positive comments about Barack Obama’s speech on race—all of a sudden she became a wild-eyed Trojan Horse Black Radical in their eyes, when nothing of the sort occurred. Apparently she needed to completely divorce herself of her blackness for the comfort of the denizens of the swamp, even though nothing had changed about her views on policy.
Discussing the whys and hows of human nature when it comes to these biases shouldn’t be such a difficult matter, but it is. I don’t have a problem opening the door, but I can’t walk through it alone. We all need to play a part, and share in the responsibility to achieve equality for all. Civil rights is not a zero-sum game; there is enough shared blame for the debacle that is Prop 8, and it cannot be undone. We have the choice to educate or alienate going forward.
My friend Wayne Besen of Truth Wins Out shares the view that this toxic blame game needs to stop and we need move on. So far TWO is the only advocacy organization to step up to the plate.
Truth Wins Out today expressed its grave disappointment in those in the LGBT community who have emulated our bigoted opponents by scapegoating minorities. It has been reported that African Americans have been verbally abused and have had racial epithets hurled at them during Anti-Proposition 8 rallies.
“It is reprehensible to look for scapegoats and target innocent people with vile racial epithets,” said TWO Executive Director, Wayne Besen. “We call on all GLBT people behave intelligently and act responsibly, so we can figure out – together – the best way for our movement to proceed and achieve equality.”
UPDATE: People For the American Way’s president, Kathryn Kolbert, has
released a statement about the situation. It’s lengthy and worth the read, as it is both informative
and personal as she calls for a broad debate around race, civil rights and the LGBT movement.
The past 72 hours have brought an extraordinary range of emotions — great joy at the election of Barack Obama and defeat of John McCain, and sadness and anger at the passage of anti-gay initiatives in Florida, Arizona, Arkansas, and California. That sadness has turned to outrage at the speed with which some white gay activists began blaming African Americans — sometimes in appallingly racist ways — for the defeat of Proposition 8. This is inexcusable.
As a mother who has raised two children in a 30-year relationship with another woman, I fully understand the depth of hurt and anger at voters’ rejection of our families’ equality. But responding to that hurt by lashing out at African Americans is deeply wrong and offensive — not to mention destructive to the goal of advancing equality.
Before we give Religious Right leaders more reasons to rejoice by deepening the divisions they have worked so hard to create between African Americans and the broader progressive community, let’s be clear about who is responsible for gay couples in California losing the right to get married, and let’s think strategically about a way forward that broadens and strengthens support for equality.
I particularly appreciate the time Kathryn spends putting the focus on the real enemy—the religious right, the professional “Christian industrial complex” and its quite blatant courting and cultivation of the existing homophobia in the black church.
The Religious Right has invested in systematic outreach to the most conservative elements of the Black Church, creating and promoting national spokespeople like Bishop Harry Jackson, and spreading the big lie that gays are out to destroy religious freedom and prevent pastors from preaching about homosexuality from the pulpit.
In addition, Religious Right leaders have exploited the discomfort among many African Americans with white gays who seem more ready to embrace the language and symbols of the civil rights movement than to be strong allies in the continuing battle for equal opportunity. At a series of Religious Right events, demagogic African American pastors have accused the gay rights movement of “hijacking” and “raping” the civil rights movement.
The effort to stir anti-gay emotions among African Americans by suggesting that gays are trying to “hijack” the civil rights movement is not new. During a Cincinnati referendum in 1993, anti-gay groups produced a videotape targeted to African American audiences; the tape featured Trent Lott, Ed Meese and other right-wing luminaries warning that protecting the civil rights of lesbians and gay men would come at the expense of civil rights gains made by the African American community. It was an astonishing act of hypocrisy for Lott and Meese to show concern for those civil rights gains, given their career-long hostility to civil rights principles and enforcement, but the strategy worked that year. Eleven years later, however, African American religious leaders and voters helped pass an initiative striking the anti-gay provision from the city charter. (The story of that successful fairness campaign is told in an award-winning mini-documentary — A Blinding Flash of the Obvious — that is part of a Focus on Fairness toolkit produced by People For the American Way Foundation.)
In California this year, national and local white anti-gay religious leaders worked hard to create alliances with African American clergy; Harry Jackson was busy in both California and Florida stirring opposition to marriage equality. None of the Right’s outreach to African Americans on gay rights issues in recent years has been a secret. Neither has polling that showed some deterioration in African American support for full equality. But there hasn’t been the same investment in systematic outreach from the gay rights community.
I welcome this frankness. We have to move beyond fear and blame. Please read the rest.
Related:
* Ballot initiatives provide a wake up call to the LGBT community about race
* The religious right promises more amendments, do we have a plan?
------
Registration is now required! We're still in the process of getting it all squared away, so for the moment don't forget to Login or Register using the links in the upper left menu before starting to write your comment.
Posted by
Pam Spaulding on 07:11 AM •
Permalink
this has been so disturbing for me. i keep looking into statistics, and it just doesn’t add up, this blaming african-american voters. why didn’t 500,000 of the white people who voted yes stay home? this was a record breaking year for voter turnout, so i suspect many of those white people haven’t made it to the polls in the past. (not that it matters, but things have been so racially sensitive i feel the need for full disclosure: i’m a white, heterosexual woman). people, when enraged and hurt, need a scapegoat sometimes. and, it’s unfortunate that this is happening with prop 8. there is no one group we should be furious with - we should be furious with all bigots, race/gender/ethnicity of the bigot is secondary.
i think a lot of blame, if not all, should be placed on religion - mostly christian: fundamentalists, evangelicals, catholics, mormons. but, even some orthodox jews supported prop 8.
but, of all those religious groups who pushed prop 8, the group i do fear the most is the religious right, regardless of denomination. i’ve believed for a long time that they sincerely want a theocracy. worse than that, they’ve convinced their followers that this country was based upon christianity, therefore it’s always been a theocracy.
but, i digress. i really am not sure where the fight goes from here. i’m hoping alot of this racist finger pointing is a knee-jerk, blow to the gut reaction, and cooler heads will prevail. it is, after all, just days after the election. and, all the racist bullsh*t will not only divide people more, but it detracts from the few, realistic options californians who believe in equality have to fight this amendment.
I don’t know how to say how sad this makes me.
Thanks very much for the PAW link. I’ll be using that to educate the people around me who insist this is “the African Americans’ fault.”
This whole thing is depressing, and sadly it doesn’t seem as if there are any easy answers.
The racist behavior is disgusting and inexcusable, but the feelings of hurt and betrayal aren’t completely without merit.
And I think that’s what it comes down to - a collective feeling of being hurt and betrayed.
I believe the reason more vocal anger wasn’t directed at most of the (predominantly white conservative Christian) groups listed in the letter is because the gay community has come to accept the reality that most of those folks are cultural enemies; I don’t think they expected a large majority of another oppressed class to stand so overwhelmingly in their opposition.
I just don’t know the answer. Two groups of oppressed people building animosity and resentment towards each other stands to benefit no one other than those in the privileged class who wish to see the marginalized groups remain marginalized.
It makes my heart hurt, because I know that this is EXACTLY what fuckheads like Dobson wanted to see happen. He got PRECISELY what he wanted - a hateful proposition passed, and misdirected anger that takes the focus off of their ilk. I hope that piles of shit like that are proud.
I really hope that I live to see a day where nobody gives a shit what color your skin is, whether you have a penis or a vagina, what your orientation is, what age you are, what your economic background is, what your body appearance is, what your intellectual potential is, or whether or not you have full use of your physical body.
Xenophobia sucks ass.
We don’t need the Religious Right’s battle against gay marriage win on two fronts; they got their disgusting, discriminatory ballot measures, and if we don’t stop this shit dead in its tracks right now, they’ll get a second win, in splitting the progressive movement. I’m angry with everybody who voted to entrench hatred and discrimination, but saying OMG TEH BLACKS DID IT! is bullshit, because, hello, look at the racial demographics. Black people make up, what, just under 7% of the population of California? Do the fucking math, bigots.
I agree completely about not attacking all black people because of the statistics showing that some black people voted disproportionately against us. There are plenty of black people who support us.
While we’re not painting with broad brushes or scapegoating, can I request that Pandagonians pay attention to how often they do exactly the same thing with anyone who defines themselves as Christian? There are gay Christians and plenty of Christians who fight for our rights, too. I applaud the posters so far in the thread in making a point of singling out the religious right as our opponents.
First I am from Cali, and second there just aren’t that many blacks in Cali to make a difference in the passage of Prop 8. Look at the total of whites and asians both have a much larger population then blacks in Cali.
So people are pissed I am pretty pissed about it, but what people forget is the reason minorities have the rights they have are from the courts not the ballets.
Just keep that in mind....
As ding writes at Bitch Ph.D., the fault lies mainly with straight people. ding is herself a black churchgoer, so she has seen first hand the extent of the homophobia.
Kathryn Kolbert is right: The anti-gay contingent has done way more Prop 8 outreach to black churches than the No on 8 folks did. It’s time to even that out and make organized gay rights groups seem like less of a white thing.
Some of these groups supported Prop 8 far more than African Americans did, which makes me wonder why we’re focused so much on race instead of any of these factors. In terms of predictive value, religion, political ideology, and being married with children tell us much more about how someone voted on Prop 8 than race does.
I think there is a focus on black people because many assume that, given the discrimination that black people have suffered, and continue to suffer (although to to a far lesser extent), that they would be particularly sensitive to discrimination against other groups of people. That seems not to be true.
Another example is anti-semitism. I’ve seen numerous articles and surveys which appear to show that black Americans have a far higher level of anti-semitism than the population in general. It’s particularly ironic, because Jews played such a large role in fighting for civil rights. I know that my parents, who were very active in that area, were also very disappointed to see such blatent anti-semitism in the black community. This is something that BO has commented on.
Black people may be more or less prejudiced against gays than other groups, but it’s harder to understand given their own life experiences with discrimination and their history. I do think that the importance of religion in the black community probably plays a role.
This is all about religion and education, folks. The unchurched are more likely to support civil equality - and there are plenty of black people who aren’t churchgoers. There are LGBTQ-welcoming black churches as well. The problem here is that the bible beaters saw fertile ground to bring the discriminating churches into the fold, and the gay community did nothing to counter that.
“ I do think that the importance of religion in the black community probably plays a role. “
Yep it was used to help enslave them and still enslaves them today.
There is also a huge amount of self loathing gays in the Black community reinforced by the Christian churches. It’s also wide spread in Africa due the importing of fundie American churches.
The problem with Alex Blaze’s list of Prop H8 voters (accurate as I’m sure it is) is that only one of the groups is readily recognized: The elderly. And identification is a big part of the problem. Blacks are too easy to recognize…
It’s really sad to see the scapegoating, but it’s also very hard not to fall into that trap. I have been really angry at the fundnuts in general and the Mormons specifically over their support of Prop H8. I have had to take a step back and remember that I have known a lot of good (if sadly misguided) Mormon people, and remind myself that brainwashing is not an exclusive to LDS followers.
The Prop H8 thing has been so disheartening to me, it has been very painful to live through. For the last 4-weeks or so, especially the last few days before the election, I would see lots of shining, lily-white people at several major intersections I have to drive through holding up pro-Prop H8 signs and waving them around. The urge to stop my car and confront them was often difficult to suppress. But an aggressive responsive wouldn’t have changed their closed and propaganda-poisoned minds, and getting myself arrested would do me no favors either.
I hope that Prop H8 will get rejected by the courts so we can move on. If not, we will have to work harder to pass another prop to overturn it. If we’re lucky, within a couple years this whole mass of hate and stupidity will be put behind us, or at least diminished to a level easier to handle…
I’m sure the church leaders who spearheaded this vile and nasty attack on human beings in the name of their “lord” are sitting back and laughing now that they’ve managed to neatly deflect blame from themselves and their hateful membership for the lies they told to get this measure passed.
I still maintain that boycotts and IRS examination of church records should be pursued in order to turn the light of truth and reason onto the slimy, maggot-infested people who think they can legislate hatred from the pulpit.
I believe the reason more vocal anger wasn’t directed at most of the (predominantly white conservative Christian) groups listed in the letter is because the gay community has come to accept the reality that most of those folks are cultural enemies; I don’t think they expected a large majority of another oppressed class to stand so overwhelmingly in their opposition.
I think this is completely plausible.
From an historical perspective, I am also reminded of the racism that emerged in the fight for women’s suffrage when black men were “enfranchised.”
I missed something big in the last few days I’ve been crazy at work and unable to do anything more than the occasional driveby here at Pandagon, didn’t I?
but, even some orthodox jews supported prop 8.
Here in New York, the biggest (or at least most visible) group protesting any gay rights or gay pride activity is always the ultra-orthodox Jews. It can sometimes be hard for me to remember that they hate us as a function of fundamentalist religion, and not because Teh Jooz Hate Gay People. In other words, it can be hard to see the ideology divorced from what we have been taught to other.
I wonder if the same kneejerk response is to blame for the scapegoating of black voters here?
Something noone has touched on, but is ironic, is that our new President is a black church-goer, but not a member of the religious right. His church belongs to one of the more liberal denominations in the country, yet even he has said that because of his religion he is opposed to gay marriage (and would have presumably voted against prop 8 because of this opposition). The blacks being attacked by hate speech in California are no more guilty of bigotry than our new president.
I fully agree. It is disgusting that any LGBTIQA or ally would turn to racism, especially when it was so obvious in this campaign who the true enemy was. White Male Christian Conservative Leaders like Rick Perry and James Dobson and the Church Elders of LDS went out there, made themselves visible, funded white ads with white children in them and repeated their dusty bullshit that they used in their anti-miscegenation campaigns. These are the people that revealed themselves as the head of the beast and this proportion BS is an obvious distraction from the unity we should show. So 20% more blacks than whites were a part of the duped? So what. The leaders were all white. The money was all white. And certainly the most vocal supporters and cheerers were all white. The enemy is shared and we should stand together.
Is it frustrating having to explain to people who should understand why separate isn’t equal and why another minority is in fact human? Of course, but it’s also frustrating explaining to the poor why they should support the political party that actually fights to protect them. It’s fustrating explaining to the religious that the quickest way to lose their flock is to continue to fight on the wrong side of history. It’s frustrating to be on the side of what is right explaining to the stupid why you are a human being and them being squicked out or scared of being made teh gay doesn’t trump our human rights.
We are frustrated, but we shouldn’t take it out on those who will be our most likely allies. We shouldn’t take it out in in-fighting as if Transpeople are responsible for gays being hated or blacks responsible for Prop 8 or gays being responsible as a weapon to remove the masculinity of blacks. All of these arguments are idiotic, short-sighted stupidities of people who should know better. We have lost a lot losing the lessons of socialism. As every good union leader knows, we stand together or we fall separately.
We are frustrated. Let’s take that frustration to the power structure, to the Religious Right which didn’t even dare to own their bigotry as they claim that a simple majority is enough or proof of the rightness of removing rights of people like the black lesbian I had to console this week as she learned that hate won. Let’s not be stupid fellow queers. Let’s not give the homophobic in the black community an excuse to write us off. Let’s make them ashamed to be aligned with the same damn white folks that would be glad to see them back in slavery. Let’s make them own that rather than go for the quick fix of blaming “them” for this temporary setback. Because they are us are we.
“even he has said that because of his religion he is opposed to gay marriage (and would have presumably voted against prop 8 because of this opposition).”
You do realize then he would have been supporting gay marriage if he had voted again prop 8?
Prop 8 was the ban on gay marriage. Also Obama if you had read what he said is that he opposed efforts to take away rights from gays and that if gay marriage were legal he wouldn’t oppose it.
I’m with Obama and HRC on this one. Marriage is between 1 man and 1 woman.
Liberal Fascism at work:
A man wearing a McCain-Palin T-shirt during a Philadelphia celebration on election night was arrested, cuffed and stuffed into a police cruiser, and supporters said it was for no more than wearing the endorsement of the GOP nominees for president and vice-president.
Although the man protested that he didn’t want to cause any trouble, officers manhandled him and arrested him, the video posted on YouTube shows.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94N1TkuLWss
Funny how blacks are a minority in the truest sense, but their voting en bloc somehow makes them a super majority?
Fight the real enemy: tax exempt organizations preaching hate and imploring their members to vote this way or give to this effort/candidate. Even when all African Americans vote the same, their votes are not a majority.
/me shrugs
By now, I’m decidedly used to so-called liberal people turning out not to be so when an issue hits a certain salience level. There are always going to be a bloc of people in most oppressed groups whose only real desire is open up the franchise of white supremacy a little. We saw this crap from Geraldine Ferraro, and we’ll see more of this crap from marginal gay rights activists. Just the nature of the game.
The real issue is that the proposition system in California is bonkers. One really should not be able to amend the constitution to *specifically* deny rights to other people. In this sense, I’m considerably more concerned about the national phenomenon that anti-gay ballots are still effective. I sorta believe that a federal suit *is* needed and take the risk of a bad ruling. It’s much worse to get nibbled at (with that terrible Arkansas prop, for example) and then get the big ruling than it is to get a ruling when the justices might feel compelled to be reasonable.
Civil rights are going to be going in very steep headwinds soon due to a deflating economy. It is NOT a good gamble to be methodical and slow about this.
Larry, that isn’t liberal fascism, that’s an age-old problem with the police getting out of control in Philly.
It isn’t exactly news.
I’m not surprised. “Divide and conquer” has always been the name of the game. It’s fodder for the MSM. They love reporting on this kind of divisiveness between groups.
I’m African American, and I could care less about the institution of marriage. Like religion, it’s a social construct - a so-called tradition carried on by ignorance and hypocrisy. And it’s REALLY unfortunate that it’s at the middle of this quagmire we all currently find ourselves in.
Race and sex are 2 topics that we still have yet to fully acknowledge, deconstruct and understand. We tend to just sweep them aside, or cover them up with blanket policies - until the next time something occurs that exposes just how divided we all still are on each subject.
But religion is very much at the heart of the matter here. The majority of us live our lives based on the supposed teachings of a book written by men who came before us. And until we are all able to define our own lives, as opposed to allowing religion to define who we are, the battle will wage on…
However, I do believe that in time, gay marriage will no longer be as much of an issue as it is currently. The country’s personality is changing, I think - a grand step was made in the right direction on Tuesday night with the election of Obama for president. I suppose America can only deal with one item of change at a time…
Uh, Larry...you and that idiot Jonah Goldberg are the only people who think there’s such a thing as “Liberal Fascism”. So there really are no examples — BECAUSE IT DOES NOT EXIST.
Now that you’ve further exposed your extreme lack of intelligence and understanding, can you please move on and pollute some other blog with your droolings?…
Blaming black voters for Prop 8 is beyond ludicrous and yet, sadly, entirely predictable. I remember a dozen articles and blog posts in the last couple weeks saying “if this thing passes, it’ll be because of those bigoted, ignorant blacks and latinos”. This despite the fact that “Yes” votes correlate more strongly to education and income level than to race. And despite the fact that latinos were polling 55% AGAINST Prop 8. (Ultimately they voted 53% in favor - I think that Sunday sermonizing probably made the difference).
What really lost this race was organization. Campaigns matter. Our side pissed away a 15 point advantage. We raised more money than any other initiative in history. We raised more money than our opponents. But we ran a lazy and stupid campaign until about two weeks before the election, when a bad poll scared us into action. By that time, it was too late to organize and deploy an effective force. The other side had the momentum and the campaign infrastructure to carry them across the finish line.
Gay people lost this election, because we failed to convince straight people to vote with us. Like any other group that loses an election, we need to fire our leadership and find ourselves some new, vigorous talent to advocate and fight for us.
We absolutely must speak out against racism wherever it is. It’s horrible that Prop 8 passed, but we simply cannot answer bigotry of one sort with bigotry of another.
We are all humans, and we are all entitled to the same rights.
It saddens me so much to know that the racists aren’t solely on the ‘other’ side. This serves as a reminder that even if someone is allied with us on most issues, they must be called out for hatred. It’s not acceptable from anyone anymore.
Lance the damn boil once and for all. Wherever it lies.
Here is my observation: I was at SF Pride, bawling my eyes out because I just happened to see two men get married. The happiness in me (and some booze) was that great. I saw the “vote no on the marriage ban” at that time. In the interim, I slowly saw this thing gain ground. Seeing a commercial on TV at the gym once, then a sign here and there (I remember the first time I saw that yellow sign, it was so foreign that I said to myself, “what is 8? why should I vote for it?” before I connected it with that thing that I didn’t think any decent person could support), then last week, it exploded.
Sunday night, I saw signs popping up in the middle of the night. I checked to find my local No on 8 office, and the closest I could get was Berkeley or Oakland. There were no offices with numbers from my area code (925). Monday morning, I made the mistake of taking the road to the highway to get to work and found myself in what I call “The Gauntlet of Hate”. Yes on 8 signs three feet apart for MILES, people guarding them, then there were the people WITH the signs. My rage was palpable, and the only thing I could do was give dirty looks and the finger. One of the people with signs looked sad when we made eye contact. That was my solace.
How could so many people be so arrogant?
I had sent a message to the No on 8 campaign the night before, asking for assistance, giving them my daytime phone number. I did not get a call back on Monday. I do not know how overworked or staffed the office was. I had been wanting a sign against 8 for my car for months, but the closest I got was a bumper sticker that I had wanted to tape inside my car, but I got effing lazy. I finally got my sign, found on the ground at UC Berkeley on Tuesday night, but it was too late. One person that saw me holding it that night approached me to give me the sad news. I already knew and just wanted to enjoy the return of rational US government to our planet, so I was more discrete with the sign, so as to avoid mourning for now. But I still wanted my sign, if only as a way to remind myself and everyone else that no, I was not a bigot.
Last night, some of my friends went to the SF protest and came back with a sign. I remarked at how badly I had wanted one but hadn’t gotten one until now. My friend said the same thing. We are all guilty in some way for this loss. We’re doing the same thing that Republicans are now doing about McCain. Only, instead of infighting and blaming those that didn’t vote with us, we need to figure out how to dispel the myths around Prop 8. Anyone that listens to KQED (or other CA NPR, probably) has heard that man who said that he supported gay people and their right to marry, but stopped short at it “being taught in the schools”, and that was why “of course” he voted yes on 8.
In other words, undoubtedly, many of those 52% that voted yes that did so because of the outright LIES told by the Prop 8 supporters. We needed to dispel these lies even more vigorously (myself included, don’t think I’m not as pissed at myself as anyone else) - no, we STILL need to. We need to remind people that this is a civil rights issue, and just like those people that protested school desegregation, the Yes on 8 crowd will find itself on the wrong and embarrassing side of history.
Great...so now the “faggots” and the “niggers” are enemies…
sigh.
It is too bad that the winning Democratic coalition is already starting to fall apart over something as trivial as marriage. Let the religionists keep their silly little marriage ceromonies, it is time to move-on.
Their is no legal benefit of marriage that cannot be conferred in another way so save the “it’s about legal rights BS”. It is about trying to control what people think and it is a way to make sure conservatives stage a quick comeback and make sure that both sides lose in the future.
JHR, they should also keep their stupid ideas about racial equality to themselves too, I mean, what’s up with THAT??
I forgot to add (and properly edit, I see) that we need to look into Dean’s 50 State campaign approach for our future efforts. Losing can teach us a lot, and the democrats learned a lot from the Kerry loss. We can’t afford to disregard San Diego county, Livermore, or Chico. We can’t just keep staging events in the Castro or West Hollywood. I saw ONE ‘No on Prop 8’ on Monday.
And when they tell us that gay people should be happy with civil unions, that they don’t need marriage, ask them why they don’t just get a civil union themselves. We also have to remind everyone that restricting marriage has as much to do with the patriarchal definition of marriage, with men at the top and women subservient, as anything else.
Don’t lose hope and don’t get angry, the ancestors of our new first lady were slaves (well, blacks in the south before the revolutionary war), change is possible.
Fighting over “marriage” makes it seem like people are trying legislate either acceptance or non acceptance.
legislation can create laws but it will not effect how people think.
That’s exactly rite Karl. I mean, it’s not as though the Civil Right’s Act accomplished anythin, right?
Wow...This is really fucking sad.
To all those who are gay, White, and angry @ Black people - How do you feel about Black gays?
Their is a difference between a civil rights act that gave people real rights like equal access to jobs and education and gay marriage. Which essentially gives gays access to a failing instatition.
Marriage is not worth the fight. State sanctioned civil unions for everyone. And if sky fairy worshipers want a mythical blessing as part of their mythology great. It should be between them and their church.
Sorry - I’m keeping my marriage...LOL!
If I tole you once, I have tole you a million times....You folks need to stop equating being gay with being Black.
Black people find it offensive.
You may now return to your regularly scheduled bitching.
Fuck you, Uhura. I’m gay and black, and I believe I have a better understanding of whether there is some similarity that your bigoted mind can handle. Go get a clue somewhere else, you insufferable, disingenuous nincompoop.
“Agree with them or not, the Catholics and Mormons that supported Prop 8 did so (as best I can tell) as we hope citizens will, raising money, holding rallies, etc. What have the California gay marriage proponents offered in return? Threats against the churches. Racist epithets. Bullying tactics meant to intimidate and terrorize those that financially backed Prop 8.
All else being equal, my gut reaction is to empathize with those being attacked by angry mobs. I suspect others feel that way as well” Confederate Yankee
The whole reason we are faced with this dilemma to begin with is because too many people believe that our choices are subject entirely to our temptations. They aren’t even as mature as Forrest Gump- instead of stupid is as stupid does, they’ve regressed to stupid is as stupid feels. What kind of society would this be if everyone expected everyone else to “tolerate” their indecent behavior? The fact that they go so far as to object to the workings of democracy, simply because it worked against them, is an ominous manifestation of actions they believe are justified.
I don’t expect everyone dealing with homosexual tendencies to deal with it the way I think they should. But I DO expect the people of this nation to be able to voice their opinion and for that opinion to be respected.
Fuck you, Uhura. I’m gay and black, and I believe I have a better understanding of whether there is some similarity that your bigoted mind can handle. Go get a clue somewhere else, you insufferable, disingenuous nincompoop.
Matthew on 11/08 at 08:23 PM
Fuck you harder Matthew.
Accepting other people’s feelings - as irrational and unfair and biased and uninformed as they may be - is the first step to understanding how they think. And understanding how someone thinks is the first step to changing how they think.
Dumbass.
“A man wearing a McCain-Palin T-shirt during a Philadelphia celebration on election night was arrested, cuffed and stuffed into a police cruiser, and supporters said it was for no more than wearing the endorsement of the GOP nominees for president and vice-president.”
A man wearing a McCain-Palin T-shirt...and a sword.
Uhura, please beam yerself back to Planet Stupid right away. If your small mind can’t handle the concept that one doesn’t choose to be gay any more than one chooses to be black, well, you won’t get any affirmative action for your ignorance here.
You sound as dumb as those who say “as a white woman, I’m offended by comparisons between mysogyny and race hatred”. See? Stupid.
Accepting other people’s feelings - as irrational and unfair and biased and uninformed as they may be - is the first step to understanding how they think.
On second thought, beam down to the Planet Stormfront.org. I’m sure they can use a little of your kindly understanding of their state of mind right now.
In other words, we are not expected to “understand” your stupidity and bigotry as a courtesy. Many of us hail from some pretty insanely batshit backgrounds and understand it right fine, thank you.
Sorry, Pam, but if CNN’s exit poll is right, then if African-Americans had voted 50-50 on Prop 8, instead of 70-30 for it, it would have failed. Do the math: with 10% of the vote, they contributed 7% of the pro-8 vote and 3% of the anti-8 vote. If, instead, they’d voted in the same ratio as whites did, 8 would have failed. The combination of a huge surge in AA turnout and huge anti-gay sentiment in the AA community sunk 8. The late great Steve Gilliard often wrote about black homophobia. It’s a problem.
This in no way excuses a racist backlash, or even assuming that a given person is anti-gay because of the color of his/her skin. But it does mean that there is work to do. The right plays divide-and-conquer.
let me get this straight.
people are so incapable of independent thought that just pouring tons of money into the yes to prop 8 campaign was enough to get them to “do the wrong thing”? What? Are they incapable of thinking for themselves? Why is heterosexism excused, repeatedly? The reason why people are upset is, as noted above, you would think that the numbers would be the same, regardless as to race. In other words, you would think that heterosexism would be evident at the same rates among all racial groups. But it wasn’t. That’s a problem and as Jasmine pointed out in her LA X piece, as a black Lesbian, she
1. Thinks it is not the job of white gays to go to black communities and educate them.
2. It is /her/ job to do that education, where and when she pleases. /If/ she even pleases.
I agree with that. It’s white’s job to educate whites about racism. It’s LGBTQ people of color to educate people of color about heterosexism. But according to Jasmine, black people have more important things to worry about. (I don’t agree with her pitting oppressions against one another though. It’s not a game and if my allies don’t do what /I/ want them to, I don’t turn around and refuse to help people for whom /I’m/ an ally just because I’m vindicative. It shouldn’t work that way—unless, of course, you embrace some hierarchy of oppressions. Which I thought we were all again here.
What is astonishing, when you break down the numbers is that black women at higher incomes were more likely to support a ban on marriage than white women at higher incomes. Contrary to the tendency for heterosexism to decline among people as their education and incomes rise, for black women it actually increases. For white women, it decreases.
I am reminded of the work of the critical race theorists who write about how the Irish became white. They did so by engaging in racism in order to show themselves to be white, to be accepted by whites. If this sort of analysis is acceptable to explain white racism (and has also been applied to Italians, Jews, and the working class whites more broadly), then it seems to me that it’s applicable to professional middle class blacks with decent incomes. In order to see themselves as assimilated, they embrace the societal norm of man, woman, two children, dog, cat, and picket fence.
Yes, whites who were once considered “not whites” threw blacks under the bus to gain a foothold. Today, not surprisingly, why should blacks and latinos not throw gays and lesbians under the bus for the same reason. They are just as human as the white people who did it to them. They are not special or exempt from shitty behavior. People in my own community do it all the time: Indians want to desperately to be accepted they constantly throw LGBTQs under the bus to gain a foothold. We have to own that, and it’s my job as an LGBTQ woman of color to deal with it, not the job of some white leatherdaddy in Miami to do it for me.
People who criticize the so-called small numbers in the polls don’t even understand polling data. first of all, the typical polling sample is around 1000. The poll usually tells you that you can figure its accuracy within a certain % such as + or - 3 points. +/- 5 points. The reason why it’s typically a sample size of 1000 is that tests over decades have shown that collecting even higher numbers in the poll doesn’t change the descriptive or predictive abilities of the survey itself. They could have polled 10,000 people and they wouldn’t have gotten a much more accurate %—not to justify the cost at any rate.
Also, can we say Rachel Maddow? Andrew Sullivan? High profile GLBTQ Obama supporters who shut their mouths. Talk about elephant in the room. Obama and Biden refused to support gay marriage and people wonder why Christian blacks and Latinos did the same. Obama constantly positioned himself in ways that prevented him from having to embrace anything “too Liberal” for scaring of the conservatives he courted this entire election campaign. So Obama stood up and pointed to his Christianity as the reason why he couldn’t support gay marriage.
Well, you got the Democrats, who’ve been selling out anything more radical than a loaf of bread for decades now. You got the Democrats and you got Obama and you got his and their socially conservative agenda.
Let me know how it all works out for you, mmmkay?
I see “Uhura!” is back shit-stirring. I realise that anyone can pick a handle on the Internet. But why did this creepy homophobic shit-stirrer have to pick Uhura as her handle? And given that she demonstrated on an earlier thread that she’s no more interested in having a discussion than any other troll, why hasn’t she been banned?
Moving on, the “iProtectMarriage” crowd were making use of exactly this kind of shit-stirring with their list of dreck about “why you shouldn’t support same-sex marriage”. (I go into it in more detail at my own blog...)
For example, an assistant vice president of human resources at the University of Toledo was fired, for publishing a widely-read op-ed that publicly contracted her employer’s human resources policies, and for making clear to her employer via pre-disciplinary hearings that followed the article that she completely disagreed with her employer’s policies and procedures and would not support them.
The “iProtectMarriage” website had reduced this down to “a black administrator was fired from the University of Toledo, Ohio, for objecting to the comparison of black discrimination to same-sex marriage”.
The “comparison” that the assistant vice president of human resources had objected to was “It’s basic Golden Rule territory: don’t judge people for the color of their skin or their physical challenges, and don’t judge them for their sexuality. I know that is a simplified and naïve statement, but for me, the issue really is that simple.”
I’m completely appalled that racists at “No on 8” rallies are abusing black people. I’m sorry I didn’t say that in my earlier post.
Yes on 8 didn’t have just the $25 million figure that’s floated so often. They had billions of dollars and decades of organization that went into building their bigoted electioneering machine. And they do it subsidized by the rest of us, because churches are tax-exempt. Every time you drive by a church you have to realize that you’re driving past a taxpayer subsidized political organization. The infrastructure is already in place. They don’t have to go out and canvass to find voters - voters come to the pews and sit voluntarily to be told how to vote, and when they’re told to vote for bigotry, that’s what they’ll do. Not on the basis of a $25M, 6-month campaign, but on the basis of a campaign that’s been run on billions of dollars for decades - that you helped pay for.
It doesn’t. Solve. Anything. To blame black people for the passage of Prop 8. How about blaming 1) Schwarzenegger, 2) Republicans, 3) out-of-state religious organizations that CLEARLY violated the Constitution to put it on the ballot? I don’t understand. As a black gay person, I’m constantly appalled at the ability of *some* queers to rationalize their racism. I don’t want to get married, but I’ll be damned if someone up and takes away my right to visit my partner in the hospital. Buck up, fellow feminists, radicals, and civil rights advocates-- it wasn’t going to be this easy in the first place.
Accepting other people’s feelings - as irrational and unfair and biased and uninformed as they may be - is the first step to understanding how they think. And understanding how someone thinks is the first step to changing how they think.
Lots of white people still feel that African Americans belong at the back of the bus and should only be employed in the low levels of the crop harvesting profession. Should we coddle those irrational feelings?
Being African American or being gay both render one second class in our society. Gay marriage is a civil rights issue. You can deny it all you want, and you can feel whatever bigoted feelings you feel. But in the end its about civil rights.
Uhura, please beam yerself back to Planet Stupid right away. If your small mind can’t handle the concept that one doesn’t choose to be gay any more than one chooses to be black, well, you won’t get any affirmative action for your ignorance here.
Great! At least we all know where we stand.
You sound as dumb as those who say “as a white woman, I’m offended by comparisons between mysogyny and race hatred”. See? Stupid.
Ms Kate on 11/08 at 10:18 PM
Yeah - except that no one says that - LOL!
I am trying to let folks in on some of the illogical thoughts influencing those who voted for Prop 8 (no where did I say that I feel this way)...and rather than accepting the information, you’re calling me stupid.
Perhaps I am stupid....for thinking that many people here would be rational enough to have this conversation.
In other words, we are not expected to “understand” your stupidity and bigotry as a courtesy. Many of us hail from some pretty insanely batshit backgrounds and understand it right fine, thank you.
Ms Kate on 11/08 at 10:20 PM
If you want to win - understanding what you’re up against is not “a courtesy”....it’s a requirement. And none of the White homosexuals here had any idea how offensive the Black to Gay comparison is to some people. If they did, I doubt they would make that angle of approach.
Sorry, Pam, but if CNN’s exit poll is right, then if African-Americans had voted 50-50 on Prop 8, instead of 70-30 for it, it would have failed. Do the math: with 10% of the vote, they contributed 7% of the pro-8 vote and 3% of the anti-8 vote. If, instead, they’d voted in the same ratio as whites did, 8 would have failed. The combination of a huge surge in AA turnout and huge anti-gay sentiment in the AA community sunk 8. The late great Steve Gilliard often wrote about black homophobia. It’s a problem.
This in no way excuses a racist backlash, or even assuming that a given person is anti-gay because of the color of his/her skin. But it does mean that there is work to do. The right plays divide-and-conquer.
Joe Buck on 11/08 at 10:39 PM
Joe’s right.
I think lots of people in the LGBT community are pissed at the large number of African Americans who vote for 8 for the following reason:
it sounds like every African American who voted for 8 said “civil rights for me, but fuck you.”
And if the African American ‘yes’ vote tipped an already close vote, then there is going to be a backlash. What people need to remember is that there is nothing particularly pathological with the African American community when it comes to gay rights, because if you look at the white community you will tend to find the same level of bigotry. Undereducated, over-churched evangelical whites* are as bigoted against gays as undereducated, over-churched evangelical African Americans. Look at more educated people who don’t attend wingnut churches and you will find that for African American and white it is a really mixed bag.
Thus if African Americans have a pathological anti-gay bias, so does the white community.
*Someone is asking about conservative Catholics right now. That’s a whole other topic in some ways given the size and diversity of the Catholic Church as a whole (even while local churches tend to be homogenous in composition).
San,
Your post made a whole lot of sense. I wonder whether people will be able to accept what you’re saying.
This example you gave is a great description of the “extreme displays of heteronormative behavior” I was trying to describe earlier:
I am reminded of the work of the critical race theorists who write about how the Irish became white. They did so by engaging in racism in order to show themselves to be white, to be accepted by whites. If this sort of analysis is acceptable to explain white racism (and has also been applied to Italians, Jews, and the working class whites more broadly), then it seems to me that it’s applicable to professional middle class blacks with decent incomes. In order to see themselves as assimilated, they embrace the societal norm of man, woman, two children, dog, cat, and picket fence.
These folks (middle & upper class Blacks) will most certainly continue to vote down pro gay legislation due to this dynamic...and they are the types of Blacks who WILL vote.
The question is: How can they be persuaded to change their thinking on this when it’s directly connected to the racism they experience…
Lots of white people still feel that African Americans belong at the back of the bus and should only be employed in the low levels of the crop harvesting profession. Should we coddle those irrational feelings?
Coddle - no. Understand, deconstruct, and replace - yes.
Being African American or being gay both render one second class in our society. Gay marriage is a civil rights issue. You can deny it all you want, and you can feel whatever bigoted feelings you feel. But in the end its about civil rights.
Richard Goblin on 11/09 at 10:56 AM
I don’t know...something tells me that many of you are very angry and reading what you THINK I am writing versus what I am actually writing. I have said repeatedly that denying social rights to any US citizen is wrong wrong wrong.
Yet your anger at Teh Ignorant Yes to prop 8 Kneegrows takes you to places I can’t possibly understand.
Your feelings are your own problem. The real issue is your principles. Feel whatever you want, it doesn’t matter.
And your principles suck ass. Same goes for your rank egotism and insincerity.
I don’t know...something tells me that many of you are very angry and reading what you THINK I am writing versus what I am actually writing.
You said you were personally against marriage equality and gay couples adopting. This makes you a bigot. Your just as bad as Billy Bob Redneck who thinks interracial marriage should be illegal. You’re a bigot just like him.
Yet your anger at Teh Ignorant Yes to prop 8 Kneegrows takes you to places I can’t possibly understand.
The state of California just told my sister to go back to the back of the bus. So frankly, you can go fuck yourself.
Allow me to make it plain: I am black and gay. If anyone can compare the discrimination and marginalization experienced by both communities, it is those of us who fall into both categories. For those straight blacks who are unable to accept the similar, continuing, and now greater stigmatization, by the majority, of the gay community, it boils down to simple bigotry: either their religious beliefs short-circuit the empathy necessary to understand the truth, or their ignorance informs an opinion that being gay is a choice, and I could happily have sex with and marry a woman, if I tried.
You can’t begin to understand what it feels like to walk into an interview, or a new job, and wonder if my coworkers are intelligent enough to hear about my boyfriend. To walk from the bar to my car at 2:00 am and wonder if I my outfit is so “gay” that I will be a target. To contemplate whether I would be allowed into the emergency room to see my boyfriend, after he was hit by a car two weeks ago.
At this time, I have no tolerance for ignorance, and I honestly don’t even care to explain. It is clear that one of our participants doesn’t even have the character to honestly present and analyze the animating emotions and prejudices that support her ignorance.
U., this post is speaking out against GLBT people being bigoted towards black people, all the commenters here are against it, and yet you’re here demanding to know why everyone here hates black people?
Guys, please don’t feed the troll. It just battens on attention.
Richard, I said that in the beginning and I knew that I felt like something was wrong....and by the end of the thread somone named ERL had framed the issue in a really good way that led me to come to this conclusion:
It is wrong to deny any US citizen social rights.
Now, there were some harsh words exchanged between me and some of the folks that participated in the thread - but I was just giving what I got and those were not serious comments.
If you go back and look @ the thread, you’ll see exactly what I mean.
U., this post is speaking out against GLBT people being bigoted towards black people, all the commenters here are against it, and yet you’re here demanding to know why everyone here hates black people?
NC on 11/09 at 12:04 PM
Can you show me where I demanded to know that?
It is clear that one of our participants doesn’t even have the character to honestly present and analyze the animating emotions and prejudices that support her ignorance.
Matthew on 11/09 at 11:58 AM
That’s funny because THAT is exactly what I am doing. And, all it’s doing is making people hallucinate and get more angry.
No On Prop 8 organizers have only themselves to blame for their shitty organization on Prop 8. While it appears that a majority of the net margin can in fact be attributed to black voters (70-30=40%, times 10% of the electorate, is 4% of the 5% loss), that’s the failure of salesmanship. They did not engage in coalition politics to any meaningful degree and their campaign ads were mostly lame and preaching to the converted. Samuel L. Jackson’s ad was pretty good, but it was pretty narrow and ignored black Americans.
Here’s the ad copy that should have been written if these clowns knew what they were doing.
“The Mormon Church maintained decades of racist oppression against Black Americans, not even allowing them to join the church until, I kid you not, 1978, the late years of Jimmy Carter. Now the Mormon Church wants to oppress not just Black Americans, but all of us Californians through their funding of an attempt to blot out equal protection of the laws regarding marriage. This sounds like Jerry Falwell risen from the grave, to me. Barack Obama agrees: we should vote NO on Prop 8.
Our California Constitution is none of Salt Lake City’s business. Tell Salt Lake to keep their Mormon views on marriage to themselves for themselves, to mind their own [motherfucking] business and stay out of our lives in California. Absolutely No No No on Prop 8. Thank you.”
But No On Prop 8 was organized by stupid motherfuckers. Sarah Palin is a Rhodes Scholar politically compared to the lilly-white, hyper-liberal ghetto that ran this campaign. < /rant.>
Bruce - your idea sounds awesome!
And I am in complete agreement with your assessment.
That’s funny because THAT is exactly what I am doing.
When queried about the substance of your belief that gays should not be allowed to marry or adopt, all you offer is tautologies, misdirection, and vapid statements as the putative representative of the black race.
You are not a productive addition to the discussion. This is my final response to you.
Uhura! --
I thought I gestured toward an answer. I agree with Jasmyne Cannick (up to a point) when she says that white GLBTQ people should stay out of straight people of color communities with their poor outreach tactics:
Likewise, holding the occasional town-hall meeting in Leimert Park—the one part of the black community where they now feel safe thanks to gentrification—to tell black people how to vote on something gay isn’t effective outreach either.
There’s nothing a white gay person can tell me when it comes to how I as a black lesbian should talk to my community about this issue. If and when I choose to, I know how to say what needs to be said.
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-cannick8-2008nov08,0,5044196.story
Since white gay people have nothing to contribute to the dialogue and since Jasmyne knows best what to say to her community, then she may well be right: It’s her job to do the education with people in her community.
She goes on to say that gay marriage isn’t really her issue anyway: she’s a black lesbian and views the issue as one to which mostly white (and presumably) well-to-do LGBTQ people subscribe.
So, the task is to address immediately the breaches *within* the LGBTQ community since Jasmyne isn’t going to support what she sees as white LGBTQ issues until someone convinces her that they are also LGBTQ people of color issues. She also seems to be demanding that white LGBTQ people show a lot more interest in the concerns of people of color, first, before people of color are going to come around.
In the meantime, ISTMT, until those issues are addressed, any larger mobilization to fight the heterosexism among all people is a lost cause.
San,
Yes - If the current train of thought withing the LGBTQ Community is that Black gays are “responsible” for educating the Black community and White gays are “responsible” for educating the White community...then there are some serious raodblocks for gays in general.
Division within the LGBTQ Comminity will mean no progress at all for anyone.
This is my final response to you.
Matthew on 11/09 at 02:48 PM
Awesome! We were not having the same conversation anyway.
I want everyone here to see this...because THIS is what you’re up against: (It’s an actual quote from a web site frequented by Blacks)
EXHIBIT A:
I think all people should be loved and respected and treated with liberty.
No one is stopping gays from living with, engaging with each other!
But the government has to place limits and restrictions, standards and morals on the actions of its people! That’s why we have laws!
I’m sure pedophiles may feel like they were born attracted to kids, and I’m sure they want the “freedom” to marry a child. But the country has set a standard and a moral against that!
If we allow gays to get married, we are going to have to allow pedophiles to get married, and we are going to have to allow objectophiles to get married, and we are going to have to let people who engage in beastiality to get married.
We have to draw the line at man-woman marriages or else we open the door to any and everything else!
We have to set a standard, and that standard has to be rooted in GOD!
(Mary)
EXHIBIT B: (Some rationality - yay!)
(Mary),
basing all decisions solely on majority rule would legitimize discrimination of minorities (racial, religious, ethnic, cultural, linguistic, etc.). Also,you said there can’t be tyranny of the majority in a democracy because in a democracy we have choices? A democracy is more than just having the right to vote and having choices. The right to vote doesn’t mean much if all the candidates want to oppress me. Democracy is also about respecting minorities, civil rights, and liberties.
(Mark)
EXHIBIT C: (Things begin to look up-yay!)
See (Mary), i’m not talking about marriage, I’m just talking about people having equal rights. I don’t want us to get off topic.
“But the government has to place limits and restrictions, standards and morals on the actions of its people” - Quote from (Mary)
But is it fair for those morals to be based on by a specific religion?
(Paul)
EXHIBIT D:
I am glad that the people of California voted the way they. I hate when people compare minority rights as the same as gay rights. It is not the same. People have the right to be gay or straight, but it should never be seen as ok or acceptable by law. It is a personal choice. We don’t choose our race but we choose to be gay or straight.
(Denise)
Everyone: Mary’s & Denise’s lines of thinking are fairly typical for a large block of the voting Black populace. You may do with this info what you will.
But No On Prop 8 was organized by stupid motherfuckers.
No on 8 was organized by a lot of very smart, very dedicated people who were fighting a losing war on two fronts: the money flowing from the LDS church and its buddies, and trying to get help from people and groups totally tapped out by the presidential campaign.
Your blog, Bruce, suggests that you live on the East Coast, not California. Unless you were flying out to volunteer with the No on 8 campaign, you have absolutely no clue as to how “lily-white” the campaign was. I’m sure that the many Asian and African-American volunteers I saw busting their asses for No on 8 would be astonished to hear how you looked right through them. Okay, maybe they wouldn’t be.
So since it appears that all you’ve done on this is a) offer some Monday Morning quarterbacking, along with a really lame and untested argument designed to appeal to bigotry and b) calling every single person and group involved in fighting Prop 8 a “stupid motherfucker” because you would have done things oh-so-differently, I think there is indeed some stupid motherfuckery involved. It’s just that it’s on your part.
An aside: Uhura, you seem to feel strongly about educating everyone on these issues. Maybe you should set up your own blog. I probably wouldn’t read it because you aren’t particularly nuanced on the intersection of race & homosexuality, but maybe you’ll improve with practice and research.
On topic: as a native Californian, one of the things I find so weird about the whole ‘blame the blacks’ thing is that African-Americans are a tiny percentage of the Californian population. That said, the largest communities are in the exact urban communities where the highest population of LGBT are too.
Obama has inspired my mother (straight, devout Catholic, grandmother, life-long Californian) to get involved in reforming health care; would that she would get as inspired around LGBT equity too because I think a critical element in soothing both sides is that anti-prop 8 people need to be speaking directly with the pro-prop 8 people in their communities. I feel like I’ve got to go back to attending church regularly to do this and at the moment I am too enraged at the catholic church for meddling in this election to start doing that. Plus I don’t live in CA, but given what happened in my state in the election, I suspect we will have an anti-gay constitutional amendment soon.
An aside: Uhura, you seem to feel strongly about educating everyone on these issues.
Is that how it seems?
Maybe you should set up your own blog.
Newp. I am not affected strongly enough by this issue to blog about it. But I am able to “overhear” conversations that may be useful to folks who are.
I probably wouldn’t read it because you aren’t particularly nuanced on the intersection of race & homosexuality, but maybe you’ll improve with practice and research.
Paris on 11/09 at 04:41 PM
On second thought...I’ll get right on setting up that blog, Paris. Especially since I know you probably wouldn’t read it - LOL!
BTW - I do have my own site - but it’s a social site for Mothers across the USA, Canada, and Australia.
As a BLACK gay male, this is extremely hurtful and disheartening. The white gay community talks about equality, but fails to practice it. That, at least, has been my experience. I am ambivalent about my gay identity because I rarely ever feel included, but now I’m not even tolerated. To think that I could show up at a rally and be called names by gay people is beyond mind blowing. It’s no secret that racism exists in the gay community. I remember being naive enough to think that coming out would mean acceptance. I mean surely gay people understand what it’s like to be marginalized right? Surely, they, if anyone, will understand. I can’t change my blackness and I’ve never felt at home in the “gay” community, so now what? I’m not in California now, but if I were and what was described by Rod 2.0 happened to me, I don’t know if I’d ever recover.
From above: “I don’t think they expected a large majority of another oppressed class to stand so overwhelmingly in their opposition.” Let’s be real, majority gays often take us for granted. We’re invisible, they are not anymore sensitive than the rest of the culture when it comes to minority gays, so it’s not fair to hold us to a different standard, as if our blackness makes us stand with the gays because we’re all marginalized. It cuts both ways, if you’re white and gay, stand with and open the gay community up to gays who are non-white. Tokenism is not acceptance. The gay community has a lot of growing to do as well. If any good comes of this unfortunate situation it will be that the white, gay community embraces other minorities and doesn’t take them for granted.
It’s hard being a minority within a minority. The gay community as a whole, needs to be the example of inclusiveness that the civil rights movement once was. Gays come in all shapes, sizes and colors. Gays who have the power need to remember and be reminded of that and need to demand better and not take a passive position. Every time I read a gay publication, it just about kills me to be “invisible” and it tears me apart to be ignored.
I am upset about this erroneous finger pointing at African-Americans regarding Proposition 8. Why are you so quick to believe whatever you hear? If someone told me 70 percent of gay people voted against Obama my first thought would be, excuse me Jesus, that is crap! I don’t believe it! This political year was fraught with right wing lies. Bear that in mind.
“Religious organizations that support Proposition 8 include the Roman Catholic Church], Knights of Columbus, Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) a group of Evangelical Christians led by Jim Garlow and Miles McPherson, American Family Association, Focus on the Family[and the National Organization for Marriage Rick Warren, pastor of Saddleback Church, California’s largest, has also endorsed the measure. The Bishops of the California Catholic Conference released a statement supporting the proposition. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) has publicly supported the proposition and encouraged their membership to support it, by asking its members to donate money and volunteer time. The First Presidency of the church announced its support for Proposition 8 in a letter read in every congregation. Latter-day Saints have provided a significant source for financial donations in support of the proposition, both inside and outside the State of California. About 45% of out-of-state contributions to Protect Marriage.com has come from Utah, over three times more than any other state.”
Still, even though gays were fighting to preserve a basic right, it was the anti-equality side in California that seemed to have the most fervor. A symbolic low point for the gay side came on Oct. 13, when the Sacramento Bee ran a remarkable story about Rick and Pam Patterson, a Mormon couple of modest means - he drives a 10-year-old Honda Civic, she raises their five boys - who had withdrawn $50,000 from their savings account and given it to the pro-8 campaign. “It was a decision we made very prayerfully,” Pam Patterson, 48, told the Bee’s Jennifer Garza. “Was it an easy decision? No. But it was a clear decision, one that had so much potential to benefit our children and their children.”
This is your real enemy. Don’t trust exit polls. I think they are pitting one group against the other. African-Americans are less than 7% of the state population, do the math. Many more Whites voted and they put this over, not Blacks. What are the total numbers of each group that voted. Someone dug into the data and found that we’re just now learning is that the exit poll was based on less than 2,300 people. If you take into account that blacks in California only make up about 6.2%, we get roughly 224 blacks who were polled. 224 blacks to blame an entire race! The original percentage of black voters who were expected to say yes to Prop 8 was only around 52-58%. Anytime you get a vote that much higher over the projected vote, something went wrong.
I know someone who watches C-Span and they said most Blacks did not even address the question at all. And they do not have the money to fund a tens of millions of dollars Proposition 8 campaign. Note that they also targeted affirmative action for eradication in another state.
I cannot believe that these groups get a pass and Blacks are being targeted for the blame game. Rather than be upset at the phantom African-American menace, fight like hell. There is no right wing black conspiracy against gay Americans. When you tried to align your struggle with that of Blacks you inherited their enemies. These same enemies are now trying to pit one against the other because they fear the combined numbers of both.
How many gay activists supported the civil rights movement in the 1960’s? Then how do you automatically expect support in return? Have you asked Blacks to support you or did you just assume?
No one gave Obama anything and they will not give gays anything either. Obama stands on the shoulders of a lot of brave people who gave their lives for him to stand on that podium last night.
Never trust exits polls because in all my years of life, no one has ever been seen at a polling place asking anyone anything when they left.
Don’t fall for the lies.
How many gay activists supported the civil rights movement in the 1960’s? Then how do you automatically expect support in return? Have you asked Blacks to support you or did you just assume?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayard_Rustin
“Bayard Rustin (March 17, 1912 – August 24, 1987) was an American civil rights activist, important largely behind the scenes in the civil rights movement of the 1960s and earlier, and principal organizer of the 1963 March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom. He counseled Martin Luther King, Jr. on the techniques of nonviolent resistance. Rustin was openly gay [1] and advocated on behalf of gay and lesbian causes in the latter part of his career.”
If your small mind can’t handle the concept that one doesn’t choose to be gay any more than one chooses to be black, well, you won’t get any affirmative action for your ignorance here.
Annnnnnnd this is why the issue of gay rights in black America will always be a non-issue, which sadly affects black gays more than anybody else.
Page 1 of 1 pages
Commenting is not available in this weblog entry.
this has been so disturbing for me. i keep looking into statistics, and it just doesn’t add up, this blaming african-american voters. why didn’t 500,000 of the white people who voted yes stay home? this was a record breaking year for voter turnout, so i suspect many of those white people haven’t made it to the polls in the past. (not that it matters, but things have been so racially sensitive i feel the need for full disclosure: i’m a white, heterosexual woman). people, when enraged and hurt, need a scapegoat sometimes. and, it’s unfortunate that this is happening with prop 8. there is no one group we should be furious with - we should be furious with all bigots, race/gender/ethnicity of the bigot is secondary.
i think a lot of blame, if not all, should be placed on religion - mostly christian: fundamentalists, evangelicals, catholics, mormons. but, even some orthodox jews supported prop 8.
but, of all those religious groups who pushed prop 8, the group i do fear the most is the religious right, regardless of denomination. i’ve believed for a long time that they sincerely want a theocracy. worse than that, they’ve convinced their followers that this country was based upon christianity, therefore it’s always been a theocracy.
but, i digress. i really am not sure where the fight goes from here. i’m hoping alot of this racist finger pointing is a knee-jerk, blow to the gut reaction, and cooler heads will prevail. it is, after all, just days after the election. and, all the racist bullsh*t will not only divide people more, but it detracts from the few, realistic options californians who believe in equality have to fight this amendment.