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Next entry: Wingnut longs for streets clogged with child beggars Previous entry: NBC, please stop ruining funny shows. Kthnxbai.

The naturalistic fallacy isn’t health care

I'm a religious reader and super fan of GOOD, but once in awhile they fall into some of the more annoying yuppie-left habits, forcing me to write complaining blog posts like this one. I only gripe because I love! The sin this time came, sadly for me, amidst a challenge you all know I'm going to support whole-heartedly, a "get healthy" challenge. But to my mind, a large part of being healthy is being evidence-based in your health choices, which can do two things for your health. One, it makes your choices more effective. Two, it saves you the stress of having to attend to a lot of things that are meaningless, like whether or not something is "natural" or "homeopathic", freeing up time in your day to do things that are genuinely good for your health, such as exercising, eating right, and sleeping 8 hours a night.

Day 8 of the challenge, therefore, is getting it from me. Cord Jefferson surprised me by writing an anti-soap screed, since he recently wrote an evidence-based explanation of why you should wash your hands every time you use the bathroom. That post made me even more cognizant of times I really should be more careful about washing my hands, and reminded me that I need to get a whooping cough vaccine update in order to be a good citizen who doesn't put physically weaker people in danger of catching germs off me. So I was surprised to see him dismiss soaps and shampoos as "chemicals" that are dangerous for their, well, chemicaliness.

In January of this year, prompted by the GOOD challenge to swear off soap for a month, I stopped using soap, body wash, and shampoo on my hair, face, and most of my body. My armpits and crotch still got lathered, but the rest of me was free of all the lab-made junk that goes into our hygiene products nowadays. Eight months later, I’m still not using soap, and my skin and hair have never felt or looked better. The moral of the story: You don’t need a bunch of nonsense dreamed up by chemists to stay healthy and be happy.

This might be a good time to point out that there's a great deal of variation in how much filth people have on their bodies. Some people are greasier and hairier than others, and some people have hormone levels that cause their sweat to be extra-smelly. Some people are up to stuff that gets them dirty. If a quick rinse does it for you, good for you, but individual results may vary. I'm not fond of heavy duty anti-perspirants, but I've come to realize how much of a godsend they are for people whose body chemistry isn't quite like mine. Plus, I just really like the feeling of being squeaky clean. Don't try to guilt me out of one of these little joys in life that harms no one. And that's my next point: the argument for why soap is "bad" isn't there.

Though most people eat, drink, and use dozens of foodstuffs and products per day, the vast majority of us never actually look at the labels and ingredients lists on most of our products. We’ll read countless blog posts, but not the little square on the back of our face wash that tells us we’re rubbing acid on our cheeks every morning.....

Should you actually be putting salicylic acid near your eyes? If the answer to these questions is no, try going a day without that product and see how you feel. If the answer is still yes, that’s fine, too. At least you’ll be far more aware of what it is your putting in and on your body day in and day out.

I get that he's trying to agree that individual choices may vary, but it's clear that the "correct" answer is that one shouldn't use salicylic acid because it's a Chemical. There's no actual argument here for why it's not safe, and certainly no producing of evidence for why one should hesitate to use this chemical; it's just unnatural-sounding and an acid to boot. This is just poor reasoning, plus a really unnecessary swipe at chemists, who are no more evil a group of people than anyone else. Honestly, they're probably better on average than we journalist types.  

I blame Michael Pollan in part. He crafted some food rules that were intended to reorient people to eating healthy in a way that was less work than going through elaborate processes of educating yourself about everything that goes into food, by simply trying to push people towards simpler food that wasn't crafted in a lab in order to maximize your calorie and fat consumption. But in doing so, he reaffirmed the Cult of the Natural, i.e. the belief that because something has a chemically-sounding name, it's automatically suspicious. And we're seeing that logic taken to an extreme here.

The funny part is that salicylic acid is "natural". If you simply called it "willow bark extraction", the naturalism cult people would be eating that shit up. It's also pretty safe if used correctly, and I can attest is very good at holding off adult acne problems. But even if it wasn't "natural", the problem here is simply assuming that something is dangerous because it sounds complicated. There's no reason to assume that. I'm sorry to see such poor reasoning being passed off as health advice at GOOD. I realize filling 30 days is hard to do, but a better use of their time would be to encourage people to do things like get up and walk around more, or add more fruits and vegetables to their diets. 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 05:33 PM • (80) Comments

OMG SALICYLIC ACID!  You know, that stuff that can come from…willow bark.

Comment #1: oldfeminist  on  10/10  at  06:13 PM

Gah, didn’t read all the way down in my haste to mock.  There was even a picture of a willow tree.

I am teh pathetic.

Comment #2: oldfeminist  on  10/10  at  06:15 PM

I feel the need to toss back some acetylsalicylic acid after reading that ignorant screed against salicylic acid.

Comment #3: Ticky  on  10/10  at  06:27 PM

Gotta watch out for those dangerous chemicals!  Let’s all boycott dihydrogen monoxide…

Comment #4: James  on  10/10  at  06:34 PM

A truly heartfelt thank you from someone who deals with this issue as well as the anti-vaccine issue all the time.  Your approach (using facts and critical thinking to analyze dogma) is enormously refreshing.  Thank you from a pediatrician!

Comment #5: PedsMD  on  10/10  at  06:37 PM

I actually went shampoo-less for about a month. My hair - being naturally extremely fine but very thick - didn’t like it at all. It did acquire body for the first time ever in my life, but it actually fell out at a higher rate than usual (probably because it all was catching on the comb rather than being limp and playing nice with the comb). From experience… I could see going soapless just for shits (and money saving), but not for the “it’s better for you” angle.

Comment #6: Hobbes  on  10/10  at  06:42 PM

Salicylic acid is a godsend to me - I have psoriasis - and so it’s like the magical ingredient.  I wish I could get like a spice-scented soft-soap like dial without the anti-bacterial; I don’t need it for most times I wash my hands.

But ugh, soapless for a month?  It’s bad enough the week I’m in Black Rock City.  I have to shampoo several times with acidic soap to get my scalp back to normal.  Luckily, all the UV I get makes up for the crud I collect, so I’m usually better off later.  Like, after I’ve washed my scalp four times.

Comment #7: Crissa  on  10/10  at  06:47 PM

Dammit James, you beat me to it.  Dihydrogen monoxide is the classic example of “spooky sounding chemicals” that are actually perfectly safe.  Has anyone told him that alcohol is a chemical, too?

Comment #8: progrocker  on  10/10  at  06:56 PM

It used to be that if something sounded “scientific,” that was a big selling point. Now a large segment of the population is starting to regard “scientific” as synonymous with “poisonous chemicals;” especially when it comes to food and health care. I agree that a lot of people are flocking to the extreme ends of the bell curve when it comes to chemicals. Personally, I still use soap and body lotion but embrace the maxim “don’t put anything on your body that you wouldn’t put in your mouth.” No, I don’t drink the Dr. Bronner’s soap, but I know that its component ingredients are non-toxic. You can do a lot with coconut oil.

Comment #9: Skip_Intro  on  10/10  at  07:24 PM

I don’t know if the following is done now, but I remember reading that when Noxzema was first invented and marketed, to show how safe it was, the salesmen would open a jar and eat a little bit in front of the store managers responsible for decided what to stock in their cosmetics section.

Don’t think I do that with something that contains phenol, but, oh, well.

Comment #10: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  10/10  at  07:52 PM

Ugh, as a chemist I hate this trend of treating “chemical” like a four-letter word.

I also hate this trend of making HFCS a boogeyman while treating cane sugar like it’s a health food.  I see this commercial for a new type of chocolate milk that insists it’s healthy because there’s not HFCS, but I’m sure it’s loaded with sugar.  Now, I think some sugar of any type is a fine treat, and if you can get some milk in there with it all the better.  But we should treat it like the treat that it is an not pretend that it’s some kind of health food.

Comment #11: bananacat  on  10/10  at  08:01 PM

It must be nice to have such a good complexion that he can get away without washing his face. Mine? looks like BP had a party in my t-zone a mere hours after washing with medicated cleansers and exfoliating. I can’t even imagine how disgusting my skin would look were I to simply splash some water on it and go. Make-up doesn’t take too kindly to greasy skin either.

And yeah, FFS…this whole idea that “chemicals” are bad across the board is so simplistic, it sounds like something Michele Bachmann would be telling us she heard from some lady on the street.

Comment #12: Alison  on  10/10  at  08:03 PM

“Natural” is possibly the least useful word in the English language. Anything people do is natural. Inventing fluorocarbons is natural, because we all live inside of nature, i.e. the universe, and our brains thought it up. Bam, it’s natural. And to some bacteria, somewhere, poisonous shit that kills us is a nutritious meal, so really it’s a matter of perspective.

“Free of toxic ingredients” is useful, and more precise, though given that every day we find out that new things are toxic in some way, probably not tenable.

Comment #13: emjaybee  on  10/10  at  08:20 PM

Amanda, when you pass 40, you may find your skin still vexed by zits but too dry to tolerate salicylic acid. When that time comes, pick up some Desert Essence Tea Tree Blemish Stick, a little glass roll-on with herbal antiseptic/antiinflammatory stuff like tea tree oil.

I don’t wash my face with soap anymore. I use Cetaphil, which sounds even more chemicalish, but it’s super gentle. I never get my face squeaky-clean, but have soft skin that’s less prone to breaking out. (Whenever I feel compelled to get squeaky-clean with soap, my face gets angry and manufactures a zit.)

Comment #14: Orange  on  10/10  at  08:20 PM

I don’t drink the Dr. Bronner’s soap, but I know that its component ingredients are non-toxic.

This is a great example of the naturalistic fallacy. Soap is not its component ingredients; it’s soap. Otherwise you could swing right over to the other side and be all “ZOMG! I would never use something as harsh as soap, that stuff has LYE in it!”

Alison: there is a kind of compelling argument that using harsh cleaning methods (natural or not) for oily skin can actually cause your skin to increase the rate at which it produces oil. It’s obviously not true that everyone would do great with just water, but it’s also not true that skipping the atomic-strength detergents will necessarily leave one with disgusting skin. It’s anecdotal, but my skin became much less greasy after I started carefully using very, very gentle cleansers and products.

Comment #15: kristin  on  10/10  at  08:22 PM

Let’s all boycott dihydrogen monoxide!

Haven’t you heard? They’ve found it in our reservoirs!!!!

Comment #16: benvolio  on  10/10  at  08:22 PM

I will say that I loathe anti-bacterial soap and any asshole who brings it into my workplace.  The stuff is no more effective than plain old soap and could possibly be less effective because it lets people think they don’t have to scrub as thoroughly, and the chemicals smell awful.

Comment #17: keshmeshi  on  10/10  at  08:22 PM

I don’t think anti-bacterial soap smells bad, but I try to avoid it because it can contribute to drug-resistant bacteria without actually being more effective than regular soap.  But that’s not a naturalistic fallacy; that’s based on solid evidence.  This isn’t a debate about soap vs. not soap; it’s about making your decision based on evidence and not scare words.

Comment #18: bananacat  on  10/10  at  08:27 PM

Actually, we chemists are pretty evil people.  When I head into the lab, I’m not thinking about expanding scientific knowledge, developing solutions to real problems, or even just satisfying my curiosity about how the world works - I’m plotting to poison all the rubes.  It’s true.  We even have big secret meetings (with candles and chanting and everything) where we plot out what new chemicals we’re going to inflict on the public.  When somebody comes up with something really diabolical, we even sacrifice a goat in their honor.

Comment #19: libdevil  on  10/10  at  08:40 PM

Kristin: I don’t actually use anything that harsh. I use Cetaphil as my main cleanser, and a couple of exfoliating cleaners that are relatively mild, plus stuff like Kiehl’s toner. I also use salicylic acid spot treatments. I didn’t mean to imply that I use super-harsh stuff, just that not using *anything* other than water would be disastrous for my skin and pores.

Comment #20: Alison  on  10/10  at  08:40 PM

Alison: Ah, I see. Me too. Mild cleansers good, no cleansers at all ... not so good.

Comment #21: kristin  on  10/10  at  08:52 PM

Oh libdevil, I wanted to be the one to first make a personal commitment to evil chemistry!  Fun fact: the lab computers where I work are differentiated from normal desk PCs by little “mad scientist” clip-art stickers from the computing support department.
I really think scientists in general get it coming and going.  You think you’re so smart and you want to do stupid experiments no one cares about and think you’re God, and why haven’t you made technology to fix my problems yet?

Comment #22: ganews_  on  10/10  at  08:57 PM

Oh FFS, more “chemical” scaremongering. I have nothing of substance to contribute to this thread, but I felt the need to exclaim.

Comment #23: Triplanetary  on  10/10  at  09:13 PM

I don’t use soap or shampoo, but I also spend between six and ten hours a week swimming laps. On weeks where I’m unable to use the pool, I spend way too much time in the shower. But swimming kills two OCD birds with one stone, so I’ve got that going for me.

Comment #24: felagund  on  10/10  at  09:33 PM

We even have big secret meetings (with candles and chanting and everything)

*Sadface*  Why haven’t I been invited to these big secret meetings?

I can understand never getting a copy of the Gay Agenda because I’m just an ally, and I choose to believe my copy of the Feminist Agenda just go lost in the mail, but missing out on the Evil Chemist Agenda is just too much for me to handle.

Comment #25: bananacat  on  10/10  at  09:37 PM

I really think scientists in general get it coming and going.  You think you’re so smart and you want to do stupid experiments no one cares about and think you’re God, and why haven’t you made technology to fix my problems yet?

Not to drift too much, but I’d say this kind of double bind (sadly) gets applied to some degree to any kind of academic or academic-like research.

Comment #26: Linnaeus  on  10/10  at  09:39 PM

... Guys, if you were to expose your head to 100% dihydrogen monoxide for five minutes you could die. There’s a reason that we pay people with special training to supervise citizens when they’re around large pools of it.

Personally, I’m always glad to see people acknowledge that there are more potential approaches to hygiene than a head-to-toe scrubbing for everyone at least once a day. There are plenty of ingredients of concern in skin care products, and I do try to avoid the more complicated stuff - but that’s partially because I don’t seem to have very complicated skin-care needs and I would rather not spend my time researching what exactly CoQ10 does and whether I’m supposed to scrub my face with oat fiber daily or weekly. I started washing my hair with dilute baking soda and lemon juice partially because I was sick of trying to work out if I wanted my head to smell like lilies or papaya. Too many choices for very little payoff.

Comment #27: purpleshoes0  on  10/10  at  09:56 PM

I’ve known people who did just fine on the “no-‘poo” regimen and others who minimize the use of facial cleansers, but as someone with extra-fine, wavy hair of only average thickness and oily, sensitive, acne-prone skin, neither approach works at all for me.  I use relatively gentle facial cleansers like Purpose or Paula’s Choice, no toners or alcohols, and alternate a prescription anti-inflammatory topical with copper peptides and occasional Retin-A (chemical!) applications.  It works, mostly, although I’m never gonna have a really nice complexion.  And while I use Dr. Bronner’s Unscented Baby Mild in the shower, the fact is that even a mild castile soap’s still gonna irritate sensitive areas if you don’t rinse well.

Anyway, everyone’s gotta weigh their options and decide for themselves.  I’m not fond of heavy perfumes or fruity scents (lookin’ at you, Paul Mitchell), so those products are out.  Mineral oils are clearly a problem on me for entirely non-ideological reasons.  Salicylic acid’s pretty great stuff, although a bit too harsh for daily use as I get older.

Comment #28: latts  on  10/10  at  10:13 PM

I will just put in a plug here by saying there’s soap, and then there’s the really good stuff made with shea butter and olive oil and the like.  I used to think those crazy soap-maker people at the farmer’s market were nuts—why make soap and sell it for $6/bar when you can buy it for 1/4 that amount?  Then I tried some.  It is a completely different substance than bar soap from a store.  If you treat it right (don’t let it sit in water) it lasts for a month or more, your skin feels soft, and the soap smells great, too. I no longer buy bottled shower gels or moisturizing lotion—the shea butter soap is so much better I don’t need lotion anymore. I highly recommend that you try a bar if you never have.  In the end, it saves time, money, packaging, is more effective and you are supporting a local craftsperson as well. 

Here’s a vendor http://www.pattispotions.com/index.html and here’s her story:
“I started my company several years ago during one of Wisconsin’s infamously cold, dry winters. As the temperatures dipped and the humidity toppled, my skin reacted predictably—it tightened and screamed for moisture. The commercially produced soap I was using at the time exacerbated the problem. And no wonder! When I researched the ingredients of this product I was shocked to find out that my soap—and most others—are really not soaps at all. They are synthetic detergents with a petroleum base. In the commercial process the natural, moisturizing glycerin is removed and sold as a secondary product. Amazing isn’t it? The very ingredient your skin needs has been removed!”

Comment #29: kajey  on  10/10  at  10:24 PM

To be honest, I am not sure about salicylic acid, but I have been making an attempt to stop using cosmetics containing parabens or thalates because they are known endocrine disruptors. In addition, I’m going fragrance free wherever possible. I always thought “fragrance” meant essential oils from plants but it’s actually a catch all term for when a company does not want to give away it’s ingredients. It could be a mix of organic essential oils, or it could be something carcinogenic or teratogenic.

I find the <a >Campaign for Safe Cosmetics</a> a good place to start. Although I think they do go a bit overboard sometimes with regards to the naturalistic fallacy, they have made me informed enough to understand what I am reading when I want to buy body wash, lotion or makeup.

Comment #30: MissCherryPi  on  10/10  at  10:26 PM

Does the “no soap” pledge remind anyone else of nostalgie de la boue? It seems to me that one has to have a certain degree of economic privilege before one can actually aspire to be among “the great unwashed.”

Comment #31: Nobody in Particular  on  10/10  at  10:41 PM

I will just put in a plug here by saying there’s soap, and then there’s the really good stuff made with shea butter and olive oil and the like.  I used to think those crazy soap-maker people at the farmer’s market were nuts—why make soap and sell it for $6/bar when you can buy it for 1/4 that amount?  Then I tried some.

Hell yeah. I am a complete and unapologetic handmade soap ho. I learned my lesson about soap when I started using bars from Chagrin Valley and my skin improved approximately 1000%. To date it is still the gentlest and highest quality soap I’ve ever found but there are some others that are also excellent—BoondockG on Etsy is one of them, My Soap Studio another.

The other side of the coin is, of course, that being handmade doesn’t mean soap is good quality. I particularly steer clear of “handmade” soap that’s actually more “hand-shaped” because it’s gussied-up commercial glycerin soap base, but I’ve bought bars of from scratch cold-process soap that were good for nothing but laundry. The key seems to be to look for a soapmaker who demonstrates a good understanding of varied and high-quality ingredients, and not to cheap out when you shop.

Comment #32: kristin  on  10/10  at  10:41 PM

MissCherryPi, I think it’s worth remembering that people used lead for centuries to give their skin that healthy glow. And speaking as someone who’s made soap from scratch, clumsily made all-natural soap could potentially really mess you up because there could be undissolved lye particles in there. So I don’t care if it’s made from tree bark - I still want someone to test it for safety!

Personally I am wondering if the salicylic acid reference in the original article might as well be talking about how a lot of people use powerful products by default without reassessing them as their needs change. Salicylic acid might be all-natural but depending on the concentration it can be really drying or even, in its capacity as a wart treatment, visibly kill layers of skin and cause them to slough off. Using it on the thin skin around the eyes could easily produce a lot of dryness and itchiness in a lot of people.

Comment #33: purpleshoes0  on  10/10  at  10:50 PM

Kiss My Face makes a good cold-processed olive oil soap that’s more widely marketed. I do love farmer’s market soap but if you’ve got bad reactions to any kinds of essential oils or don’t like strong smells it can take some looking to find things that aren’t a smellfest. Kiss My Face makes an olive oil soap that has no scent at all. I love it.

Comment #34: purpleshoes0  on  10/10  at  10:52 PM

I don’t like soap and won’t use it unless someones watching or I get poo on my hand.  Or touch something gross.  I also shower 2-3 times per week because I figured out my hair looks best on day 2 or 3.  But I use regular shampoo, and 4 or 5 days is about the longest I can go without looking limp and greasy.  I don’t get stinky, really, so if I had magic hair I would shower a tad less.

On the other hand, I have a friend who tries to shampoo once a week.  She looks good for a day, then gets greasy and has flakes upon flakes upon flakes.  But she insists on the 1 day thing, so ...

I think this reliance on cleaning products being slowly chipped at can be a good thing, but you also need to figure out what’s good for your body and pay attention.  She wonders why no one will hire her, but she looks like a mess.

Comment #35: wafflemonkey  on  10/10  at  10:56 PM

purpleshoes0, I love the Kiss My Face olive oil soaps, too. But I just looked at the ingredient list and discovered it has that eeeeeeevil chemical, sodium chloride! Oh nooooooooo!!!!!!!

Comment #36: Phoebe Fay  on  10/10  at  11:14 PM

It seems to me that one has to have a certain degree of economic privilege before one can actually aspire to be among “the great unwashed.”

Definitely.  People in a lot of jobs, especially the low-paying ones, simply get dirtier and need to wash more.  They also tend to be the people who don’t have to power to argue when their boss demands that they meet a new hygiene standard.  I have a somewhat unusual career structure in that some days I spend all my day on my feet in the lab, or even out in the field doing repair work or collecting samples, and other days I will sit in my office all day long to research journal articles or analyze data (or wait for MATLab to analyze it).  When I’m spending a lot of time in the office, especially during winter when I don’t sweat, I generally shower 3 times a week, only after I go to the gym.  If I’m doing more physical work, even if it’s not that intense, I need to shower more often.  Even if I don’t need to wash my hair, I’ll take a quick bath or shower because my feet will stink no matter what kind of shoes and socks I wear which doesn’t happen when I sit still day.  I’ve tried just rinsing my stinky feet, or even soaking them in plain water in the bathtub, but it’s not enough and I don’t wanna smell my own feet until the next day when I put shoes on again.  A little soap does the trick though.

So the people who work all day frying food at McDonald’s or doing janitorial or construction work will be more likely to need soap simply because they get dirtier.

Comment #37: bananacat  on  10/10  at  11:24 PM

Use fucking soap when you wash your hands.  I don’t want your germs, I don’t want your viruses, and I don’t care if you didn’t see any shit on your hands.

Damn, there’s a limit to how much whining I can stand.  There’s a difference between not wanting to mess up the environment or dry out your skin, but you can dry out your skin with nothing but water.  So if you’re in a public place or someone’s house, use the damn soap.

I don’t care if you don’t like the scent or have some stupid rumor about carcinogenic fragrances.  It’s soap, it’s for cleaning.  Mixed with water it lowers the surface tension to pull small, invisible particles into solution.  That’s why we use it.  I don’t care if you buy it at the farmer’s market or get it from an industrial supplier:  Just use the damn stuff on your hands.

Comment #38: Crissa  on  10/10  at  11:37 PM

washing my hair with dilute baking soda and lemon juice

My wife uses lemon juice as a facial wash, the mild acidity of the citric acid being anti-bacterial.

Also, recent research has indicated that the Vitamin C in a lotion or in lemon juice is absorbed through the skin, which is a good thing because it contributes to skin health when it does so, C being necessary for making collagen, which is the basic building block of connective tissue.

“Natural selection, because it’s natural!”

Comment #39: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  10/10  at  11:48 PM

At the heart of the knee-jerk assumption that chemical = bad is the philosophical starting point that people are not part of nature.  I am an professional ecologist, and this is one of the things that kept my field from engaging cities as ecosystems for most of the 20th century - thankfully, a trend that is changing.  Unearthing the self-loathing at the root of this worldview is some of the hardest work I do on myself and my students. 

To be clear, that isn’t to say that whatever environmental damage we do is acceptable or a good idea, but I am also not keen to start from the premise that human actions are inherently bad.  Many of our decisions are destructive, short-sighted, and ugly, but the presumption that all of the fruits of modern technology are so is essentially theological (with the expected consequences for rationale thought).  It’s also of a piece with the nostalgia for bucolic landscapes, despite the greater efficiency of denser urban living.  This stuff goes deep.

Comment #40: OikoNerd  on  10/10  at  11:59 PM

speaking as someone who’s made soap from scratch, clumsily made all-natural soap could potentially really mess you up because there could be undissolved lye particles in there.

I guess, but really that would be pretty hard to achieve and the soap would have some pretty obvious giveaways like layers of oily sludge and brittle chalky substance with weeping holes.

Not being the Great Passionate Soap Defender or anything, I agree with what I think is your basic point, which is that being natural handmade soap doesn’t mean it’s necessarily good for you—soap that’s harsh is, well, harsh, and it can irritate the crap out of your skin. Just that this particular scenario is kind of far-fetched. Lye horror does not lurk in otherwise nice-looking bars of soap.

Comment #41: kristin  on  10/11  at  12:20 AM

like layers of oily sludge and brittle chalky substance with weeping holes

Hmmm ... we made our own soap in the Peace Corps and, um, sometimes it was brittle and chalky with weeping holes. It was pretty natural, though. It was made with lye and tallow. The cows in our village were too skinny to produce much fat, so I’d go to the butcher in town and get about 20 pounds of raw fat and take it home on the bus, then render it into tallow over a fire in my front yard. Nothing bad ever happened to me from handling it once it had cured, but once I touched it too soon and got chemical burns on my fingertips and some seriously weird deformations on my fingernails. However, I believe that kristin is correct that lye horror does not lurk in otherwise nice-looking bars of soap. My bars of soap were not otherwise nice-looking.

Which leads me to the point I wanted to make before I read kristin’s comment. Not only does chemical not always equal bad, but natural certainly does not always equal good. There are plenty of perfectly natural things that are poisonous and will kill you.

Was it in Fast Food Nation that the author describes the factories where they make all the “natural” and “artificial” flavors for our foods? Many of the artificial flavors contain fewer or no bad chemicals, while fairly toxic stuff is sometimes necessary to extract the essence from whatever the natural source material is.

What’s funny to me is that I know this, and yet I’d still rather see “natural flavors” than “artificial flavors” on a list of ingredients.

Comment #42: chingona  on  10/11  at  12:59 AM

Having gone no-poo and chosen to mostly restrict my cleansing habits to “soap” rather than fifty bazillion different cleansers (because I am LAZY and dislike having complicated morning routines) I’d say that I think that trying out different options occasionally and seeing if they make a desirable (to me) difference for an acceptable (to me) cost is worth it; sometimes I find things that I incorporate into my routine, sometimes I discard things for having no effect or effects to subtle or to costly for me, rarely I find something that has negative effects for me.  I do think that trying out new things can contribute usefully to my appearance; but I’m not really convinced that “having nice looking skin” is really much to do with health.

Comment #43: naath  on  10/11  at  07:02 AM

I think it’s worth remembering that people used lead for centuries to give their skin that healthy glow.

Yeah, but we also used to put uranium in false teeth. An argument from tradition seems just as false as the naturalistic fallacy, IMO.

And speaking as someone who’s made soap from scratch, clumsily made all-natural soap could potentially really mess you up because there could be undissolved lye particles in there. So I don’t care if it’s made from tree bark - I still want someone to test it for safety!

I totally agree. That’s why I like the campaign for safe cosmetics database, you can look up each ingredient in a product and see what the risks are from the results of previous safety testing. I haven’t become obsessed with it though. My mom bought me a bottle of perfume for Christmas, and safe cosmetics says it’s the devils brew… but I use it anyway because it smells good and I don’t want her to feel bad. But when I go out shopping because I ran out of a product, I have been trying out ones with safer ingredients, and some of them are really great - others were plain awful. Part of it is concern for my health and the other is environmental - the manufacture and eventual disposal of these products (as they wash off our bodies and down the drain) has an impact.

Comment #44: MissCherryPi  on  10/11  at  09:01 AM

I’m not terribly impressed by the anti-soap movement. People generally find a cleaning schedule that is right for them—how many days you can go without washing your hair, what sort of soaps and/or lotions will work with your skin’s chemistry, etc, and it’s really no-one’s business to tell you you’re doing it wrong unsolicited unless you’re a lot more offensive than you think you are.

I think my biggest thing is that people should try to go for deodorant over antiperspirant if possible, and they should avoid stuff with aluminum it. (Tom’s of Maine makes a really good product for that—I found that some of the tea tree oil remedies didn’t really mask odor very well).

I think a big reason people should shower/wash daily is simply because of pollution. The toxic/carcinogenic dust in our air shouldn’t be allowed to stay on our skin for more than a day. And if you live in an area that was populated prior to 1970, you should wash your children every night before bed because of lead dust in the drip line of your dirt (yeah, even if your house was built in the 90s, there might have been an old clapboard house there before it).

Comment #45: Mighty Ponygirl  on  10/11  at  09:17 AM

MissCherryPi - no, we agree on arguing from tradition! That lead was bad for those people for sure.

Kristin and Chingona - huh. When I took a soapmaking workshop it was explained to me that it was really important to make sure that your lye was diluted properly and that the lye dilution was mixed into the oils correctly or else you could end up with a little lye bubble, especially if you weren’t aging the soap for very long. It sounds like I might have been taught an incorrect fact? Also, Chingona, man, you had one of those Peace Corps postings people still think of when they think Peace Corps. I feel like most people I know who’ve done Peace Corps more recently worked an office job near a supermarket.

Comment #46: purpleshoes0  on  10/11  at  10:39 AM

It sounds like I might have been taught an incorrect fact?

I really doubt that lye bubbles would be present in any kind of soap sold commercially outside of a farmers market or home business, but if you want things to worry about, who are we to stop you from doing so?

Comment #47: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  10/11  at  11:04 AM

Crissa, 7:

But ugh, soapless for a month?  It’s bad enough the week I’m in Black Rock City.  I have to shampoo several times with acidic soap to get my scalp back to normal.

Huh. I always thought that was just a stereotype.

Comment #48: Hershele Ostropoler  on  10/11  at  11:10 AM

Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein, I’m talking specifically about soap sold at a farmer’s market or home business. (Or, in this case, about soap made on a home hot plate by people whose protective gear was made from a shower curtain). Jeezy creezy I’d forgotten about the verbal headbutting here while I was gone. The point I was aiming for is that there are pretty much zero 100% guaranteed risk-free cleaning products in the world (given that, as established earlier, even if you just used water you could still find a way to die from it) and that evidence-based practices, good manufacturing standards on whatever scale, and sensible safety standards among users (don’t rub salicylic acid on your eyes) are important whether someone made your soap from their own small organic coconut grove or it’s a sixty-ingredient specialized product from Unilever.

Comment #49: purpleshoes0  on  10/11  at  11:29 AM

I use Pears soap.  It’s the perfect balance for me, semi-drying (I have oily skin) but non-irritating, and has a nice rosemary fragrance.  After using Pears, other general-manufactured soaps seem clingy and scummy and florally over-fragranced, and a lot of them make my skin break out or react.

And it’s a dollar a bar at the dollar store.

Comment #50: oldfeminist  on  10/11  at  01:35 PM

I have to read the ingredients on soap because I have my mother’s super sensitive skin that hives, cracks and bleeds when I use soap I’m allergic to.

The worst offender, though, is completely natural:  Witch Hazel.  When I was looking for a good non-alcohol based mouthwash, someone suggested Tom’s of Maine.  Now nearly every single Tom’s of Maine product out there has witch hazel in it.  I wish I was kidding.  So, I picked up the mouthwash, joking that it would have witch hazel, and…  first ingredient. 

Burt’s Bees works well, so far.  I live in fear of a change in the formulas of their soaps, because I’m running out of reasonably priced products that don’t make me bleed.  I may have to investigate this Pears that oldfeminist speaks of. 

And I’m one of those super oily people who can’t go without ‘poo or daily showers.  I tried it for the week of my vacation.  Nope.

Comment #51: GeekGirlsRule  on  10/11  at  02:28 PM

GGR—I brought up Toms of Maine for their deodorant. Unless Witch Hazel has some pseudonym for ingredients purposes, the deodorant doesn’t appear to have that as an ingredient.

Comment #52: Mighty Ponygirl  on  10/11  at  02:33 PM

purpleshoes0, I appreciate that cavet emptor is something to be practiced at all times, but applying the cautionary warning for the newby amateur vs. someone who is making soap that they not only sell at retail or wholesale, but doubtlessly use for themselves, I think that gets into worrying about dying from a shark attack or getting struck by lightening.

The point I was aiming for is that there are pretty much zero 100% guaranteed risk-free cleaning products in the world (given that, as established earlier, even if you just used water you could still find a way to die from it)

People can die from water when they don’t expect it to kill them, as several real-life cases have shown over the past few years:

As marathon running has surged in popularity during the past quarter-century,1 reports have emerged of serious illness and death from hyponatremia,2-8 as in the case of a 28-year-old woman who died after the 2002 Boston Marathon.2 The incidence of hyponatremia among marathon runners is unknown, since previous studies have been small and limited to runners presenting for medical attention.4,5,7,9-11

..............................................................................................................

Discussion

We observed that hyponatremia occurs in a substantial fraction of marathon runners and can be severe. The strongest single predictor of hyponatremia was considerable weight gain during the race, which correlated with excessive fluid intake. Longer racing time and body-mass-index extremes were also associated with hyponatremia, whereas the composition of fluids consumed (plain water, rather than sports drinks that contain electrolytes), female sex, and reported use of NSAIDs were not.

These results are consistent with earlier reports that suggested a link between excessive fluid consumption and hyponatremia.3-5,7,9,13,17,18 However, earlier studies were limited by a small sample size, a retrospective study design, or a focus on elite or ultraendurance runners whose risk of the development of hyponatremia seems to be substantially lower than the risk among nonelite runners. In contrast, our study focused on a large, athletically diverse cohort of marathon runners followed prospectively to estimate the incidence of hyponatremia.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa043901#t=articleBackground

Outside of marathon running, I don’t think it worth worrying about the possible danger of dying from water intoxication(laymans’ term for hyponatremia), and IMHO, the same holds true for the possibility of getting burned because of lye particles in their soap they bought from a farmers market or home-based business.

Comment #53: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  10/11  at  02:45 PM

That Good 30-day challenge seems pretty uneven, in general.  The suggestion for day 1 is “substitute tea for coffee.”  Why?  The author says “even one cup [of coffee] makes me shaky and anxious.”  She has a cute story about how one day she decided to drink tea instead and enjoyed “not feeling a jittery high for the next three hours.”  But there’s no science or real rational argument behind this idea.  Coffee has health benefits (antioxidants, associated with less risk of diabetes & certain cancers), and despite extensive testing it’s never been shown to pose dangers.  For fuck’s sake, coffee doesn’t cause “jitterness” and anxiety for regular coffee drinkers, it just makes us normal!

Although coffee is “natural,” I suspect all the coffee paranoia may be a product of woo-woo new-agey health ideology.  Coffee is drunk by hard-charging type-A business types, it tastes strong and bitter instead of mild and mellow, and it gives you a hit of quick energy that you didn’t really “earn.”  Tea has much better PR among these people, probably just because it has less caffeine and you don’t feel the effects as strongly.

Comment #54: Betoma  on  10/11  at  03:44 PM

When I took a soapmaking workshop it was explained to me that it was really important to make sure that your lye was diluted properly and that the lye dilution was mixed into the oils correctly or else you could end up with a little lye bubble, especially if you weren’t aging the soap for very long. It sounds like I might have been taught an incorrect fact?

I think that’s correct. I’m pretty sure that’s what happened when I burned my fingers and deformed my fingernail. But the thing about a lye bubble is it will hurt and you’ll stop handling the soap and the damage is unlikely to be that serious. You’re not going to accidentally get lye all over you from badly made soap. Much more dangerous to accidentally tip over your cauldron while you’re making it. wink

But keep in mind, I basically got to practice making soap exactly once before I was making my own, on my own. The soap I was making was not like the nice soap you see at farmer’s markets.

And yeah, my PC site was pretty hardcore for modern PC, but I should clarify that I didn’t have to make my own soap because of it not being available. I could buy soap in town and even in the village for a markup. We were taught basic soap-making because a lot of women’s groups had used it as a good fund-raising opportunity (make and sell soap). My women were so poor they never wanted to sell the soap. They just loved being able to pool a small amount of money for the ingredients and then get a ton of soap out of the deal. This was all-purpose soap that we used for our laundry but also for our bodies. It was wicked harsh, but it got the job done and no one was so badly hurt as to require medical attention. We’d make our soap, I’d give a little talk about health issues, we’d plan other projects ... and so on.

Comment #55: chingona  on  10/11  at  03:57 PM

I think there’s a connection between the naturalistic fallacy and a teleological view of evolution. “A treatment or whatever created by evolution must be better than one synthesized in a lab, because evolution always pushes things towards perfection.” If you think evolution always produces the best possible outcome rather than the best available one, that attitude makes sense.

Comment #56: Hershele Ostropoler  on  10/11  at  04:25 PM

Coffee has health benefits (antioxidants, associated with less risk of diabetes & certain cancers), and despite extensive testing it’s never been shown to pose dangers.

There are some health benefits to drinking tea, although I’m not one of those “Drink green tea and you’ll live forever” types:

Several of the potential health benefits proposed for tea are outlined in this excerpt from Mondal (2007, pp. 519–520) as following:

  Tea leaves contain more than 700 chemicals, among which the compounds closely related to human health are flavanoides, amino acids, vitamins (C, E and K), caffeine and polysaccharides. Moreover, tea drinking has recently proven to be associated with cell-mediated immune function of the human body. Tea plays an important role in improving beneficial intestinal microflora, as well as providing immunity against intestinal disorders and in protecting cell membranes from oxidative damage. Tea also prevents dental caries due to the presence of fluorine. The role of tea is well established in normalizing blood pressure, lipid depressing activity, prevention of coronary heart diseases and diabetes by reducing the blood-glucose activity. Tea also possesses germicidal and germistatic activities against various gram-positive and gram negative human pathogenic bacteria. Both green and black tea infusions contain a number of antioxidants, mainly catechins that have anti-carcinogenic, anti-mutagenic and anti-tumoric properties.

In a large study of over 11,000 Scottish men and women completed in 1993 and published in the 1999 Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health (1999, pp. 481–487), there was an increase in the risk of coronary disease with the regular consumption of tea, although it disappeared after adjustment for confounding factors (age and occupational status).

A change in routine might be useful for psychological reasons, as well.

I’m always amused by how tightly my fellow Americans stick to their coffee, I grew up not drinking it because I had to make it every morning from when I was 6 years old for my father, mom drank English tea and I’ll drink coffee to be polite these days, but prefer espresso precisely for what would cause jitters in some people.

oldfeminist, you’re washing with one of the oldest commercial products on record:

History

Andrew Pears, the son of a farmer, was born in around 1770 and moved from his native Mevagissey in Cornwall to London in about 1787 to train as a barber. He completed his apprenticeship in 1789 and established a barber’s shop in Gerrard Street in Soho and began to produce cosmetic products. At that time Soho was a wealthy residential area, and Andrew’s clientele included many wealthy socialites who took great pride in their appearance. The fashion amongst the wealthy of the period was for pristine white (alabaster) complexions; tanned faces were associated with those who laboured out of doors. Andrew found that his powders and creams were frequently being used to cover up damage caused by the harshness of the soaps and other beauty products (many of which contained arsenic or lead) that were in general use at the time. Pears began to experiment with soap purification and eventually managed to produce a gentle soap based on glycerine and other natural products. The clarity of the soap gave it a novel transparent appearance which provided a marketing advantage. To add to the appeal, Andrew gave the soap an aroma reminiscent of an English garden.

But the thing about a lye bubble is it will hurt and you’ll stop handling the soap and the damage is unlikely to be that serious. You’re not going to accidentally get lye all over you from badly made soap.

Thanks for confirming my conjecture about lye bubbles based on my knowledge of chemistry.

Comment #57: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  10/11  at  04:30 PM

Although coffee is “natural,” I suspect all the coffee paranoia may be a product of woo-woo new-agey health ideology.  Coffee is drunk by hard-charging type-A business types, it tastes strong and bitter instead of mild and mellow, and it gives you a hit of quick energy that you didn’t really “earn.”  Tea has much better PR among these people, probably just because it has less caffeine and you don’t feel the effects as strongly.


Alas, I think it’s even more ‘woo’ than that—because tea is Zen. Y’know, like Yoga & all that other non-western/Asian Wisdom (it does require a bit more down-time than pouring coffee from the coffeemaker, though, and that 5 minutes or so can be a good escape from chaos…). Or maybe (for herbal teas), it’s that Olde Worlde pre-industrial Wise Womyn Wisdom thing… but I do remember, before all the ‘green tea is healthy’ studies, the Evil of caffeine would sometimes outweigh the anti-modern/western benefits of the drink.

I’ll never forget the HealthyNaturalWoo woman I worked with who critiqued my tea drinking (black, little or no sweetener, constant) & suggested this wonderful new bottled drink—with natural cane juice and guarana. No caffeine or added sugars for her! And she had so much energy!

I didn’t bother to disillusion her, partly because her “non-sugar non-caffeinated” high made working with her easier.

I still don’t get how my leaves + water got out-naturaled, though.

Comment #58: TiaRachel  on  10/11  at  04:36 PM

I still don’t get how my leaves + water got out-naturaled, though.

Just tell anyone in the future that you’re drinking it Han(Chinese) style.  I could get away with shaming any further inquiry by pointing out my Han ancestry, but you could always say, “One billion Chinese can’t be wrong.” wink

Comment #59: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  10/11  at  04:42 PM

suggested this wonderful new bottled drink—with natural cane juice and guarana. No caffeine or added sugars for her!

I remember seeing yerba mate advertised as a naturally caffeine free energy drink, which cracked me up. Later, I saw a paper that confirmed my suspicions: the difference between mateine and caffeine is semantic, not chemical. Same damn thing.

Comment #60: chingona  on  10/11  at  04:59 PM

Heh. I’ve perplexed several people re: the caffeine-withdrawal-while-pregnant thing by asking whether all those pregnant women in Asia, for however many generations, stopped drinking tea…

I’ve assembled quite an assortment of tea paraphenalia, & I could out-woo anyone these days, with props.  Plus, my latest favorite is an ‘ancient forest’ yunnan (organic/fair trade & all). Nice & spicy.

Comment #61: TiaRachel  on  10/11  at  05:06 PM

When I took a soapmaking workshop it was explained to me that it was really important to make sure that your lye was diluted properly and that the lye dilution was mixed into the oils correctly or else you could end up with a little lye bubble, especially if you weren’t aging the soap for very long.

The operative phrase is “little lye bubble”. I would imagine that any lye bubble larger than maybe a pencil eraser would be pretty obvious. A network of tiny lye bubbles would be possible but still obvious, because they would manifest as a lacy patch of weeping holes when the soap was cut. And it seems to me that by virtue of being exposed to the fat at *all*, the lye would be less vitriolic than full strength.

All of which is to say that chingona’s description sounds pretty realistic to me: an unsuspected lye bubble in otherwise decent looking soap might possibly burn your fingers and leave a small welt, but it’s not going to eat into your flesh. And in 10 years of making and buying ... hell, probably hundreds of pounds ... of handmade soap I’ve never had anything of the kind happen. (Although I’ve had a wicked rash from something noxious in commercial soap made by a company that was presumably “safety” regulated.)

I’d sum up the safety rules for buying homemade soap like so: choose soap that looks pleasantly creamy or waxy, like something you almost want to take a bite out of, with a regular and consistent texture throughout each bar; avoid brittle soap, soap with unintentional layers of texture or color, or soap networked with bubble holes; and if at all possible talk to the soapmaker (or read their website) about the oils included in the soap and its superfat and luxury additive content, because you can tell when a soapmaker is working with something they know a lot about.

I would oppose any regulation requiring small soapmakers to be certified or submit their products for safety testing, simply because it would shut down the majority of them and that would be a crying shame. I become more conflicted when we’re talking about lotions and bath products because it’s a LOT easier to screw up on the correct preservatives for those, or the wrong ratio of fragrance oil or something, but then there tends to be a large overlap between the lotion sellers and the soapmakers :/

Comment #62: kristin  on  10/11  at  05:07 PM

“Same damn thing.” Yep.

Though the caffeine might ‘hit’  in different ways (I suppose because of other components). Coffee gives me jitters, which tea/cola/no-doz don’t. So, personal preferences.

It always amazes me how very advertising-susceptible a certain segment of the all-natural market is. Doesn’t it occur to them to apply that suspicion to the people selling them their all-natural processed products?

Comment #63: TiaRachel  on  10/11  at  05:15 PM

I’m torn. Not saying people shouldn’t use soap. For the love of all that is unholy please keep using soap; I already have to deal with way too much BO on the subway.

However, there is still some pretty questionable shit being put into our cosmetic products. BHA is probably carcinogenic and has been banned in the EU. Selenium Sulfide, a known bioaccumulative toxin, is added to anti-dandruff shampoos.

Being aware and label checking is a good thing.

Plus as someone mentioned above there is that whole “fragrance” mess. Which is basically a bunch of ingredients listed as proprietary so they don’t have to tell anybody what they are. It is quite annoying as a consumer because I can never quite figure out what ingredients I’m allergic to.

It’s very hard to balance the “naturalistic fallacy” with the fact that most companies will throw anything they are legally able, into a product because they don’t really care about your long-term health. With “natural” I think people assume that it’s an ingredient that’s been used for thousands of years (even though someone might have thought to throw it in a shampoo yesterday) and therefore think it must have a proven safety record.

I’m always amused by how tightly my fellow Americans stick to their coffee, I grew up not drinking it because I had to make it every morning from when I was 6 years old for my father, mom drank English tea and I’ll drink coffee to be polite these days, but prefer espresso precisely for what would cause jitters in some people.

Meh, espresso has more caffeine per ounce but someone drinking ‘a cup’ of drip coffee will be consuming more caffeine total. So unless they nurse that coffee for hours there’s no reason why espresso would cause the “jitters.”

Comment #64: hypatia  on  10/11  at  05:29 PM

Dark Avenger:  “oldfeminist, you’re washing with one of the oldest commercial products on record”

Wow, cool.  The box says it’s over a hundred years old, I think, but I wasn’t aware just how old that was.

One of the other benefits of the soap is that it’s got a fair-sized concave area on the top.  Before your soap gets too small to handle, you can use it one last time, then squish it wetly into the depression of a new bar.  Very neat. 

I mean, sure, you can kinda do that with other soaps, put the slivers together and such, but this is ECONOMY BUILT RIGHT IN, no extra work required.

Comment #65: oldfeminist  on  10/11  at  05:40 PM

oldfeminist, I’m sure that my maternal grandmother used it, as she was raised as a Scottish/English/Chinesewoman during the first 1/3rd of the previous century and it was and is very popular amoungst all the classes in the British Isles.

I only knew of it because my mother used to take ads from 19th Century magazines and mount them on wood that was then varnished to protect the ad, and that was one of them.

As the Wiki illustration demonstrates, if you want a really, really cute looking Victorian infant or young toddler illustration, google Pears soap ads children.

Comment #66: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  10/11  at  09:01 PM

But ugh, soapless for a month?  It’s bad enough the week I’m in Black Rock City.  I have to shampoo several times with acidic soap to get my scalp back to normal.
Huh. I always thought that was just a stereotype.
Comment #49: Hershele Ostropoler on 10/11 at 11:10 AM

Well, like I said, I have psoriasis, which is usually at its seasonal ebb in August, but the dust just clings to my hair and oils and makes kinda this putty that’s horribly difficult to remove from my hair.

Comment #67: Crissa  on  10/11  at  09:14 PM

Re: Comment #52: GeekGirlsRule

Witch Hazel is awesome for me.  It’s Aloe I have to watch out for - if it gets in a cut or on my face, I start losing skin.  Which bugs me that sometimes it’s in everything.  No, I don’t know why my skin reacts to it - it’s like a burn rather than a welt.  But it’s something I have to watch out for, if I’m using something medicinally or facially.

Comment #68: Crissa  on  10/11  at  09:19 PM

Wikipedia:
Selenium monosulfide (SeS) is the only selenium compound so far identified as a carcinogen in animals.[6]

The hexasulfate (the stuff in shampoo) is not a bioaccumulative carcinogen as far as I can tell.

Comment #69: Crissa  on  10/11  at  09:37 PM

I can’t believe we’re 70 comments in and no one’s pointed out that the willow pictured is not the willow that’s bark produces salicylic acid. smile The Weeping Willow is pretty its uses are limited to sopping up excess water. The White Willow, on the other hand, has the bark that can be brewed to reduce fevers.

I’ve been growing foxglove (digitalis) in my garden for a few years and getting some really fantastic flowers, and it sort of amused me how *everyone’s* response to “hey, check out my awesome foxglove!” is “You know those are super-poisonous, right?” and I’m thinking, “I don’t normally go just shoving random flowers into my mouth ... but yes, I did know that.” I suppose if I had an infant or toddler I could see why having foxgloves would be a bad idea when you’re constantly smacking shit out of their hands before they reach their mouth, but I don’t have kids. So it always sort of mystified me why people got so excited about this one flower’s toxicity.

Turns out foxglove looks *a little bit* like comfrey (in that sometimes the flowers have a similar shape despite just about everything else being radically different), and comfrey is used as a “medicinal” herb with some uses for curing bone ailments but also just so happens to cause liver toxicity.

I mean, fine. I’m a big ol’ long-skirt-wearing hippie, and I tend to go for more natural stuff when I can, but there are limits. Nature is not always safer.

Comment #70: Mighty Ponygirl  on  10/11  at  10:22 PM

(in that sometimes the flowers have a similar shape despite just about everything else being radically different)

I would have said the flowers were the least similar thing about them. They both have broad, pointed, hairy dark green opposite leaves on juicy hairy stems. Especially before they bolt, the mounds of foliage look really similar.

Comment #71: kristin  on  10/11  at  11:06 PM

You should find the following link interesting, MP:

http://tinyurl.com/digitalis-plant-material

According to the book, it wasn’t unknown for foxglove leaves to be used in poultices to deliver the active ingredient, so I would say that a thorough washing of your hands would be a sensible precaution if you’ve been handling a lot of the leaf debris.  grin

Comment #72: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  10/11  at  11:07 PM

I’m also up for the evil chemist club.  Somewhere, I still have a flier from the annual chem club show that was advertised it as “if the world were run by chemists, it would be a…  ok, there wouldn’t be a world.”  The tendency to do home experimentation is strong, which can be harmless - I do blend a lot of my own skin care mixes, but some are more clueless about what’s too dangerous to do at home.

To add my favorite examples, having acetic acid as an ingredient is scary and dangerous, but vinegar is nature’s cleaner!  Ascorbic acid would be a horrible toxin to put in food, but vitamin C will keep you from ever getting sick.

Comment #73: Djinna  on  10/11  at  11:12 PM

Actually, last year I got some source of nightshade in my eyes - but lots of weeds have that.  But there’s nothing like ‘sudden blindness and weakness’ to necessitate a 911 call.  Since then, we’ve been a bit more atop cleaning up any spills of dyes or weed juice that we’ve had on the counters in the kitchen.

Comment #74: Crissa  on  10/12  at  03:16 AM

The thing is, if you’re worried that your soap and shampoo are too full of “chemicals,” there are ways around it other than being dirty. Go to a store like LUSH* or one of a billion gazillion Etsy shops to find soaps that use only “natural” ingredients. You can even get solid shampoos and conditioners, which actually DO help the environment by saving bottles!

Anyway, I’m another one of those people whose biology dictates I can’t skip showers; my hair is naturally very thick and oily, and I rarely can clean all of it with one shampoo. And I usually need to wash at least once every other day, if not more, or it’s REALLY noticeable. So yeah, even if I believed that shampoos and soaps were full of harmful “chemicals” I wouldn’t be able to have that choice.

*But my citrus allergy means I can’t use a lot of LUSH products, since they seem to put lemon, lime, orange or grapefruit in everything. When you have allergies, “all-natural” really is NOT better.

Comment #75: Erda  on  10/12  at  03:46 AM

The worst offender, though, is completely natural:  Witch Hazel.  When I was looking for a good non-alcohol based mouthwash, someone suggested Tom’s of Maine.  Now nearly every single Tom’s of Maine product out there has witch hazel in it.  I wish I was kidding.  So, I picked up the mouthwash, joking that it would have witch hazel, and…  first ingredient.

I have to use alcohol-free mouthwash because of my dry mouth, so I use Act.  I just checked mine and there is no witch hazel in it.

Comment #76: bananacat  on  10/12  at  10:20 AM

Dark Avenger—the digitalis active ingredient in foxglove is well-known as a way to get a stopped heart to start working again. It’s also a great way to get an already-active heart to explode.

kristin—there are a lot of different varieties of comfrey, but each variety I looked at had a completely different flower-to-stem structure although russian comfrey appears to have “bell-shaped flowers.” Looking at the basal leaf structure I guess I can see how someone might mistake foxglove for comfrey, but it’s sort of like mistaking cilantro for parsley or columbine for clover—really, as a beginner, I can see how that would happen, but once you’re putting shit in your mouth you want to be a little more careful about learning what plants look like. And especially since so many plants start with a basal leaf mound, learning about the basic leaf shape would easily weed out foxglove from comfrey.

Comment #77: Mighty Ponygirl  on  10/12  at  10:20 AM

Yes, MP, the difference between a therapeutic dose of digitalis and one that is fatal can be quite small, there have been a few murders, fictional and real, where digitalis has been used as the poison because of that fact, an example of the former is The Unpleasantness at the Bellona Club.

Comment #78: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  10/12  at  02:13 PM

Wikipedia:
Selenium monosulfide (SeS) is the only selenium compound so far identified as a carcinogen in animals.[6]

The hexasulfate (the stuff in shampoo) is not a bioaccumulative carcinogen as far as I can tell.

It’s actually selenium disulfide in shampoos and no, I didn’t mention that it was carcinogenic. It’s toxic. Two different things.

That said there are some studies that also found selenium (di)sulfide to be carcinogenic in mice but only when it was ingested; they could not reproduce the same results when applied topically.

From the EPA website: http://www.epa.gov/ttnatw01/hlthef/selenium.html

has been shown to be carcinogenic in animals is selenium sulfide, which resulted in an increase in liver tumors in rats and mice and lung tumors in female mice from oral exposure.  Selenium sulfide is a pharmaceutical compound used in anti-dandruff shampoos

and

EPA has classified elemental selenium as a Group D, not classifiable as to human carcinogenicity, and selenium sulfide as a Group B2, probable human carcinogen

The original study: http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/htdocs/lt_rpts/tr194.pdf

However, back to toxicity.

Selenium, like lead or mercury, is naturally occurring. Heck, you even need a little selenium to keep you healthy. But like lead and mercury, selenium will accumulate through the ecosystem and at high enough doses will cause ecological damage and toxic effects in organisms, including humans.

Selenium has it’s uses but just like you wouldn’t feel so great about someone dumping lead into the water system. You should probably feel about the same about selenium making it’s way in.

I’m not even saying this product should be banned but considering there are plenty of other options when it comes to dandruff treatments people should have access to information that this product is probably contributing to environmental degradation.

Comment #79: hypatia  on  10/12  at  06:31 PM

I haven’t used shampoo since 2009. It was easy to give up, since I never styled my hair anyway. My scalp gets brushed with my hair, I rinse it in the shower, and it all seems to be fine.

As for soap, I wash my hands often. I use hand sanitizer quite a bit at work when I can’t get to soap and water, because I work at a prison and the inmates aren’t known for their hygiene. In the shower I wash my pits and bits with soap, scrub everything with a brush, and sometimes soap up my feet because using just the brush tickles too much. I usually use the simple unscented soap I get in packs of three at the 99-cent store.

I see getting clean to be largely a matter of getting rid of dead stuff on my skin. Not diseased and virus-infested and germy stuff. Just dead skin, mostly. A little scrubbing and a little rinsing and I’m done. A good body brush is better than most soaps, if you’d ask me.

And yeah, I use deodorant. Unscented Tom’s of Maine stuff, mostly.

I know I have a lot of advantages over many people commenting: no makeup, no hairstyle requiring sprays or gels, no hair dye, no one really cares at my work if I look sweaty. But I really do think I am better for giving up on many of the rituals I was taught to do. Some people can’t or won’t, but I did and can endorse at least trying it.

Comment #80: 3letterjon  on  10/16  at  09:57 AM
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