Clearly, the fact that young, beautiful women won’t date me, an overweight guy in his 40s with no job who lives in his mom’s basement and does nothing all day except play World of Warcraft, is because I’m too nice.

Obvious refrain: “I’ve done everything asked in the video, but she still won’t talk to me!”

Wait, cargo pants and goatees are out now?

Just watch.  Now that you’ve invited them, we won’t get any.  :-(

I don’t know how anyone could complain about cargo pants and goatees, which are only stupid-looking, as opposed to requiring you to actively discomfort yourself in order to be stupid-looking.

Nice Guyism is a curable condition, not an immutable characteristic.

Even guys who have no trouble getting the ‘tang have Nice Guy episodes with certain women.  Guys who are chasing one woman and being a Nice Guy with her can inadvertantly attract other desirable women with their indifference.  Chronic Nice Guys can clean up following a rough break-up while they are still emotionally unavailable - like drafting in NASCAR.

can inadvertantly attract other desirable women with their indifference.

Perhaps it’s not their indifference that’s attractive, but the lack of their usual creepy behavior thats less unattractive.

“Perhaps it’s not their indifference that’s attractive, but the lack of their usual creepy behavior thats less unattractive.”

It could be any number of things.  Nice Guyism, at its heart, is about trying too hard and being too aware that you are trying to accomplish a particular end.

But I’m not a member of the Attractive Girls Union.

Demand card-check!

“I’m not attracted to indifference.”

I spake of passive indifference - not passive agressive indifference.

“Nice Guyism, at its heart, is about trying too hard and being too aware that you are trying to accomplish a particular end.”
I think Nice Guyism at its heart, is about thinking you deserve or have earned the attention of someone, because her ex was a douchebag, or she is overweight anyway so she can’t do better, or because you’ve been driving her home every night.  It is about thinking that women have sex in exchange of favors, and you gave all the favors, so where is my sex?

Haha! That Onion piece is the funniest thing I’ve seen all week.

As the owner and wearer of both cargo pants and a goatee, let me be the first to say that if these are verboten for some women, then so be it. Cargo pants are useful, practical, comfortable, and durable. A goatee means, by definition, my evil twin from a parallel dimension will be clean shaven. Unless… I’m my own evil twin. But then, I wouldn’t be wearing cargo pants if that were the case.

“It is about thinking that women have sex in exchange of favors, and you gave all the favors, so where is my sex?”

That’s an incredibly gynocentric view of Nice Guyism.  There are plenty of women who practice the inverse of Nice Guyism, which amounts to embarking upon an emotional relationship with a man with romantic dimensions disguised as a “friendship,” in order to fill emotional needs unmet by the douchebag boyfriend.  “Just friends” don’t go to the caffe and talk for hours upon hours three times a week.  Maybe women who know when a man is physically attracted to them ought not ask for favors they’d never ask of “just a friend?”  Learning to police that boundary is one of the principal cures for Nice Guyism.

Both situations are dysfunctional anyhow.

I think it all comes back to the sex-as-adversarial-game mindset Amanda writes about so insightfully.
The rape apologist wants to know what constitutes a foul, and the Nice Guy is upset because he has followed the rules but isn’t being awarded a trophy.

It’s also about having an extremely narrow set of physical criteria for potential partners, but then being mystified and angry if an when potential partners have *any* physical criteria.

I phoned my “just friend” for three hours yesterday, Prop. Said friend is not whining that I won’t fuck her, however, because she’s not an asshole.

“I phoned my “just friend” for three hours yesterday, Prop. Said friend is not whining that I won’t fuck her, however, because she’s not an asshole. “

Were you aware that she is physically attracted to you and interested in a romantic relationship with you?  Methinks this makes a difference, no?

Lord knows any emotional exchange that doesn’t involve sex is dishonest.

I take offense at the insinuation that World of Warcraft players are all loser douchebags!  If that 40-something dude living in his parents’ basement is a good tank, this young, beautiful woman would be more than happy to raid with him. 

Now that I think about it, that might be one positive aspect of the typical dipshit gamer’s assumption that all players are male.  I don’t ever have to find out which of them are Nice Guys because they all assume I’m a dude, too.  No weird pickups, no unwanted attentions.  It’s kind of nice.

“Lord knows any emotional exchange that doesn’t involve sex is dishonest.”

What of an “emotional exchange” that one party knows will not be fully mutual and reciprocal, sex notwithstanding?

Then he or she should have some self-respect and knock it off, not whine about it.  Sheesh.

“Just friends” don’t go to the caffe and talk for hours upon hours three times a week. 

Damn right. If I put in that kind of time I’ve earned a little sumpin’ sumpin’, no?  Why the hell else would I do that? 

Oh look, my eyes just rolled right out of my head.

“Then he or she should have some self-respect and knock it off, not whine about it.  Sheesh.”

Come on now - he’s infatuated (not necessarily “making a move”) and has a box full of rationalizations and excuses, and lots of “hope.”

What are you banging on about?

It’s the Nice Guys who are being dishonest in the situation you describe. They will claim that they want to be friends, and upon being treated like a friend - like having a chat in a cafe, for crying out loud - they will sulk because they don’t get any sex in return for it.

So his emotions let him rob him of agency but hers don’t?

Also, if the case is “I’m only listening to you complain about your boyfriend in hopes you’ll let me fuck you,” who is the one being dishonest or not “reciprocal”?

Prop - You are right that “Nice Guyism” is curable. But it is only curable through self awareness (mostly). Please give it a try.

“What are you banging on about?

It’s the Nice Guys who are being dishonest in the situation you describe. They will claim that they want to be friends, and upon being treated like a friend - like having a chat in a cafe, for crying out loud - they will sulk because they don’t get any sex in return for it.”

It is possible for both parties to be wrong, and neither to be right.  This is one of those situations.

“Maybe women who know when a man is physically attracted to them ought not ask for favors they’d never ask of “just a friend?” Learning to police that boundary is one of the principal cures for Nice Guyism.”

So now you ARE saying that Nice Guyism is the woman’s fault and something women can and should control?  Oh, the poor, poor, victim Nice Guys®!  How awful it must be!  Being tricked into doing things for women who had no intention to put out from the start!

There are female persons who display some “nice guy” behaviors, but I think the trope is slightly different.  There are certainly women who shamelessly use Nice Guys or guys they perceive as that, but there’s an easy solution…don’t put up with it.  Nice guy behavior is unfortunately reinforced by women (usually young, in my experience) who think it’s rude to be blunt about whether you are aren’t aren’t attracted or potentially willing to date.  In their defense, however, with some guys it is impossible to be sufficiently blunt, but that’s really leaving Nice Guy territory for DangerousStalkerLand.

“Prop - You are right that “Nice Guyism” is curable. But it is only curable through self awareness (mostly). Please give it a try.”

I’m a dick, and I don’t really try to be nice for any particular reason.  So I’ve got Nice Guyism licked from the start.

Hmmm jfm, they may assume all fellow WoW players are dude, but they live in hope.  For years my husband’s main characters were female, and guys he played would assume he was a chick.  (Because obviously no REAL MAN would want to play a female character.  Since orc hunters and such are so closely tied with one’s real life.)

Being privately frustrated about a friend(who you do friend-things with, like go have coffee, etc..)you’re attracted to not being attracted back is not Nice Guy-behavior.
Being publicly frustrated that all of your careful ministrations of “caring” and “friendship” are not rewarded with a panty-drop IS Nice Guy behavior.

There are plenty of women who practice the inverse of Nice Guyism, which amounts to embarking upon an emotional relationship with a man with romantic dimensions disguised as a “friendship,” in order to fill emotional needs unmet by the douchebag boyfriend.

You mean.. like.. friends?  If you go to a game every weekend with your guy friends because your girlfriend doesn’t like sports, should your guy friends expect you to let them stick it in your pooper because they’re fulfilling an emotional need unmet by your girlfriend?

Maybe women who know when a man is physically attracted to them ought not ask for favors they’d never ask of “just a friend?” Learning to police that boundary is one of the principal cures for Nice Guyism.

Maybe he should not be doing favors for unavailable women, if the price of those favors is a sexual relationship she doesn’t want?  I dunno.. seems simple enough.  Can’t you just say “no”?

People should be policing their own boundaries, not worrying what everyone else is doing.  You’d probably develop less angst that way.

Erm, I would say that a dick is someone who IS nice for a particular reason. That’s the definition of dickheadedness, and Nice Guyism as well.

“It is possible for both parties to be wrong, and neither to be right.  This is one of those situations.”

Seriously Prop though, and without meaning any hurt, if this is a situation you are in right now, get out of it.  Nice Guys® are shit, but I am sure they suffer.  From their own delusions, but they suffer all the same.  If you don’t like to hang out enough that just talking isn’t enough for you, then look for someone else.  I’d suggest online dating.

The implication that platonic friends don’t ask favours of each other or even talk to each other for long periods of time is particularly bollocks. I’ve called friends at three in the morning in tears; I’ve had friends call me and ask if I can immediately travel two hours to visit them because they’ve had a bad day and could I pick up a bottle of wine on the way. That’s what friends IS.

Slight Detour:  This doesn’t have much to do with the topic (I love the Onion!), but I’ve become morbidly fascinated by VH1’s Pick Up Artist.  Watching Mystery give his advice to a bunch of malleable, clueless young men is creepily fascinating—kind of like watching Senator Palpatine coaching Anakin Skywalker about the Dark Side, only with more ridiculous hats.

@Prop

Wow, I didn’t know that I wanted to fuck most of my close friends. Here I was assuming I was an asexual and that I was having nice friendships where we talked deep into the night because we were friends who shared interests, dealt with life issues together, and provide deep emotional support with no caveats and no romantic inclinations. But I guess I was wrong.

Seriously though, it seems the line for friendship and relationship can seem more blurry for people who have more separated interactions (emotional closeness for relationships, emotional distance for friendships), especially when they are gendered coded (deep friendship with guy as guy, ok, deep friendship with girl as guy, when do i get to fuck you). For people who live closer to the line, where they have close emotional connections with friends and remove a lot of the “rules” for relationships that can make them falsely stilted, the difference between the two is more elemental and understood. Love and friendship are separate things, but I would not throw away any of those close friendships so easily, because emotional closeness is something almost all human beings seek and it’s far easier to love someone on their terms if they are not your sole source of emotional intimacy or comfort.

For you personally, it can suck being attracted to someone who doesn’t reciprocate, but if you turn that attraction into bitterness and hate, the Nice Guy TM formula, then you not only poison any chance of being with that person in the way you want, but any chance of being with the person in the way you settled for. Because think of it this way, if someone hung out with you, provided you with emotional support while at every moment thinking of you as inhuman, disrespecting your personhood and pains, pretending to emotionally connect with you while disregarding anything you said, and their sole excuse for why is that they wanted to fuck you. If this seems odd to imagine, imagine that the person doing this is a man who outweighs you and he thinks it’s ok to hate you if you don’t break up with your bitch of a girlfriend. Imagine that.

And stop being afraid to emotionally connect with your friends. I guarantee that at least one of your drinking buddies would be glad to talk for hours 3 nights a week and wouldn’t think of it as gay. You deserve that too. It’s a great feeling to spend quality time with friends, to emotionally connect, rather than poison each great moment with bitterness over what it’s not.

Awww, Miss Prism, you sound like a wonderful friend! That’s the crux of the whole issue, though—friends do favors for each other. Friends help friends move, friends let friends crash on the couch if they can’t go home for whatever reason. A Nice Guy keeps a tally of all the favors he’s done and gets pissed when he’s done “too many” and hasn’t gotten his “reward.” Most of the time, the reward he’s after isn’t just sex, but mutual attraction, you know, a relationship. They don’t understand that you can’t coerce something like that out of somebody. You might be able to guilt them into sex, but after that, the friendship is obviously toast.

I think this thread should be devoted to ripping on Nice Guys, not helping them finely tune their sociopathic tendencies to be more in line with successful behavior patterns so they can finally claim their prize.

“Seriously Prop though, and without meaning any hurt, if this is a situation you are in right now, get out of it.  Nice Guys® are shit, but I am sure they suffer.  From their own delusions, but they suffer all the same.  If you don’t like to hang out enough that just talking isn’t enough for you, then look for someone else.  I’d suggest online dating.”

I believe you misunderstand.  I’m not in that situation or any similar situation.  I was simply trying to make the point that there isn’t some pool of loser “Nice Guys” somewhere that demonstrate Nice Guy behavior consistently.  All guys struggle or struggled with Nice Guyism at one point, and a lot of times find their way out of it and learn lessons that you might not agree with or approve of.  You can be in a relationship, escalate your interest in a woman, and then act all Nice Guy while sleeping with her, and later get the boot for being a “Nice Guy.”

@cerberus
Yeah, that is totally true.  Wow, I wish I were more articulate, because that was everything that I was thinking.
Can I call you and talk for hours sometime?

You can be in a relationship, escalate your interest in a woman, and then act all Nice Guy while sleeping with her, and later get the boot for being a “Nice Guy.”

Nice Guys just can’t catch a break!

*facepalm*

Sometimes Nice Guys will try to bait you when you’re in a vulnerable situation—the trick is to just say no. If a guy who’s displayed Nice Guy tendencies in the past offers to let you crash on his couch, or borrow his car, no strings attached, just turn him down, whatever the consequences. When I was in college a Nice Guy had his father offer me a well-paying job. Obviously the Nice Guy had set the whole thing up, and I had to turn it down. The bigger the favor, the more they expect.

jfm:

I take offense at the insinuation that World of Warcraft players are all loser douchebags!

While I do think of myself as having a bit of a loser douchebag aspect to my personality, I don’t think it’s because I play WoW.

If that 40-something dude living in his parents’ basement is a good tank, this young, beautiful woman would be more than happy to raid with him.

As long as you’re not going to spam Starfire before I can establish aggro, completely neglect to heal me, or mess around with your fancy new knockback abilities, I am more than happy to tank for you regardless of your real-world gender.

Now that I think about it, that might be one positive aspect of the typical dipshit gamer’s assumption that all players are male. I don’t ever have to find out which of them are Nice Guys because they all assume I’m a dude, too. No weird pickups, no unwanted attentions. It’s kind of nice.

That amuses (and saddens) me to no end. I have six female characters, but no one has ever acted like they assumed I was actually a woman.

I know I’m just adding on to the pile-on her but:

“Just friends” don’t go to the caffe and talk for hours upon hours three times a week.

It’s these kinds of stupid beliefs that leads people to think that I’m anything but friends (I would never say “Just” friends) with my guy friends.  I know, for an absolute FACT, that they are not attracted to me, will never be attracted to me, and I am definitely not attracted to them.  But the myths persist, and they are incredibly annoying.

@Prop:
You must be confused at the definition of the term Nice Guy® as used on this website.  Check prior posts on the topic.  By definition, a woman wouldn’t give you a boot for being nice if you are a Nice Guy®.  Yo become a Nice Guy® exclusive BECAUSE she won’t date/sleep with you, even though you think you’ve earned it, you deserve it, you helped her move, whatever.

And yes, there are enough of these guys and example of their behavior to justify the existence of the category as a whole.  Definitely not all guys struggle with it.  Plenty of guys don’t.

I knew Prop was one of those “post Nice Guy” nice guys who think that simply pressing button X (treat her like shit) instead of button Y (pretend to be her friend) will make the woman-machine dispense the goodies.

Face it pal, some of us are perfectly friendly, caring individuals who treat women like human beings, and it works out great.

No matter how “nice” or “mean” you are, neither will make up for not having a personality that people (including women) want to spend time with.

You can also grate cheese on my abs, which probably helps.

“For you personally, it can suck being attracted to someone who doesn’t reciprocate, but if you turn that attraction into bitterness and hate, the Nice Guy TM formula, then you not only poison any chance of being with that person in the way you want, but any chance of being with the person in the way you settled for. Because think of it this way, if someone hung out with you, provided you with emotional support while at every moment thinking of you as inhuman, disrespecting your personhood and pains, pretending to emotionally connect with you while disregarding anything you said, and their sole excuse for why is that they wanted to fuck you. If this seems odd to imagine, imagine that the person doing this is a man who outweighs you and he thinks it’s ok to hate you if you don’t break up with your bitch of a girlfriend. Imagine that.

And stop being afraid to emotionally connect with your friends. I guarantee that at least one of your drinking buddies would be glad to talk for hours 3 nights a week and wouldn’t think of it as gay. You deserve that too. It’s a great feeling to spend quality time with friends, to emotionally connect, rather than poison each great moment with bitterness over what it’s not. “

Its really not about me personally.  I played football in college, and I saw my teammates who had five blondes waiting on line get all messed up over one girl and do the Nice Guy thing.  I had a Nice Guy episode with a girl who chased me first while I was dating someone else, and then put me in friend territory after I became available and reciprocated.  I learned a lot by trial and error, and now I just don’t get into those situations because there is nothing redeeming about them.  None of that makes me, or my friends, perennial losers.  I respect myself, my time, and my things, and that is enough.

I saw my teammates who had five blondes waiting on line get all messed up over one girl and do the Nice Guy thing.

Because women (especially blondes) are interchangeable, right?  I can’t think WHY you have problems with dating! 

I had a Nice Guy episode with a girl who chased me first while I was dating someone else, and then put me in friend territory after I became available and reciprocated.

Which told you something deep about all women, right?  Please keep going.  This is awesome.

“I knew Prop was one of those “post Nice Guy” nice guys who think that simply pressing button X (treat her like shit) instead of button Y (pretend to be her friend) will make the woman-machine dispense the goodies.

Face it pal, some of us are perfectly friendly, caring individuals who treat women like human beings, and it works out great.”

I never said I treat any woman like shit.  If a woman is worth my time, she is worth being shown a good time, and I just don’t need to mindfuck anyone to get laid.  I just do what I want, when I want, and it all seems to work out fine for me.

All guys struggle or struggled with Nice Guyism at one point, and a lot of times find their way out of it and learn lessons that you might not agree with or approve of.

Then what are those lessons, pray tell?

The rape apologist wants to know what constitutes a foul, and the Nice Guy is upset because he has followed the rules but isn’t being awarded a trophy.

MissPrism: Well put. I really like that description.

“I played football in college, and I saw my teammates who had five blondes waiting on line get all messed up over one girl and do the Nice Guy thing.  I had a Nice Guy episode with a girl who chased me first while I was dating someone else, and then put me in friend territory after I became available and reciprocated.”

BLONDES!!!??? WOW!!  Take back everything I said.  I mean, he must have been HOT if BLONDES liked him. 
And FIVE of them??  That’s gotta be worth at least 25 brunettes.  50 if they’re over 140 lbs.

LC, thanks! But I nicked at least half of it from Amanda.

“Because women (especially blondes) are interchangeable, right?  I can’t think WHY you have problems with dating!”

Yeah, exactly, hipster fuckstick.  That’s what I said.  I bet you get all the wimmin in your supertight stripey wool sweater and Olberman glasses.

“Which told you something deep about all women, right?  Please keep going.  This is awesome.”

No, it told me more about myself.  I don’t chase.

and how does “I just do what I want, when I want” not betray a deep bitterness and poutingly childish refusal to engage with women on anything but a superficial level?

Turning to poorly feigned sociopathy ain’t the answer, dude.

Yeah, exactly, hipster fuckstick.  That’s what I said.  I bet you get all the wimmin in your supertight stripey wool sweater and Olberman glasses.

While it’s obvious that some great percentage of the posters here ARE tight-pants hipsters, and certainly deserve ridicule—Nice Guyism is 100x more dangerous to the average human being.

I played football in college

Well, say no more.

Can I drift a bit?

I finally watched Teeth a while back and I was wondering if the ending was a stab at Nice Guys. Spoiler Warning, if you haven’t figured it out already. You have a situation where an asshole convinces himself he loves the protagonist, and believes he’s about to be rewarded with sex from her and *chomp.* Honestly, it’s about the only example where a male character’s professed love of a female character is not rewarded in a movie… well, except for maybe Duckie (who could at least be said to have learned his lesson in a less intimately painful way). OK, no more spoilers

In an article called “The Problem with Beauty” (I can’t find it on the Google right now—I first read it in a Psychology Today article many years back and it’s been sporadically popping up since then), the author describes how the constant flood of pictures of physically flawless women that are bombarded at us selling us everything from a slice of pizza to a new mercedes causes us (and by us, we assume “straight men”) to believe that there are more hot chicks out there than there actually are. Furthermore we (or they) can’t really tell between a Real Life population and an artificial population of non-real examples, and your sense that the “market economics” of trying to find the most attractive mate is actually influenced by the artificial population, making the relative value of beauty less valuable (and therefor your own chance of attaining a beautiful mate when you yourself are borderline fugly).  There was a lot wrong with the article, but it does explain Nice Guys a bit.

So do shows like King of Queens.

When you compound that with a media industry that always rewards the male protagonist with the woman he loves and cares about and steadfastly supports, I think the Nice Guy pathos is placed in context: She will eventually realize the error of her ways and how desperately she cares for you because you’ve SHOWN her what true love REALLY MEANS and fall into your arms at just the moment when you think you’ll never get to have her, just in time for the credits to roll.

“Then what are those lessons, pray tell?”

Never turn your back on a feller that says “pray tell.”

Yeah, exactly, hipster fuckstick.  That’s what I said.  I bet you get all the wimmin in your supertight stripey wool sweater and Olberman glasses.

Hipster?  Boy are you farting up the wrong tree.

No, it told me more about myself.  I don’t chase.

If women aren’t going to do everything I want ‘cuz I did them the great favor of caring about them, i’ll just stop treating them as anything but disposable holes!

Yes!  Clearly that’s the answer!  You must be mopping up the pussy.  What with your fine logic skillz.

“Yeah, exactly, hipster fuckstick.  That’s what I said.  I bet you get all the wimmin in your supertight stripey wool sweater and Olberman glasses.”

WOW!  HIPSTER FUCKSTICK.  Sounds like a band.

Miss Prism: *nod* Yes (I am a long-time lurker round these parts), but I haven’t seen it boiled down to the single pithy phrase putting the two sides next to each other like that.

Also, as a recovered Nice Guy(tm)—back when I was 17 or 18—and fierce arguer of consent issues with people I know, I liked seeing it that way.

Never turn your back on a feller that says “pray tell.”

That’s the wisest observation you’ve made to date.

I hate to attention-whore, but can anyone tell me if there’s a fast and loose “You Might Be Dating a Nice Guy If…” quiz out there?

I love my boyfriend, but he definitely can get a little pouty about things that seem awfully clingy. Example: “If you don’t take my name when/if we marry, people will think you don’t love me.” Or my personal nearly-broke-up-our-relationship-before-it-got-started favorite: “If you keep being civil friends to your ex-boyfriend, people will think you still love him and that I’m an impotent cuckold.”

I’ve had to talk him down once or twice because he’s still minorly piqued that my “oh so popular” ex and I are still civil / friends within the context of the workplace, even though “he left you to chase pussy” (he left me because he didn’t think we were right for each other; I actually started “dating again” before he did, but never mind that right now). For right now, everything is lovely, but I’m wondering if this IS a Nice Guy, are there any future pitfalls I need to be aware of…?

Sorry to hijack the thread - please feel free to ignore me if I’m attention-whoring too much.

@ Taylor:
LOL

Ellen - Dump him.  Or at least have a serious talk about why he thinks the feelings of amorphous people who might possibly constitute a minor blow to his ego are more important than you.

WOW!  HIPSTER FUCKSTICK.  Sounds like a band.
raspberryjamba on 11/18 at 04:41 PM

Awesome! And www.hipsterfuckstick.com is still available. Better snag it now.

I don’t know, Ellen, I don’t want to judge the guy, as I don’t know him at all, but he seems kind of manipulative. Trying to guilt you into taking his last name? Not cool. And trying to make you feel bad about the not-that-bad way that your last relationship ended? Red flags, dude, is all I’m sayin’.

“If you keep being civil friends to your ex-boyfriend, people will think you still love him and that I’m an impotent cuckold.”

Well obviously, he’s paid his Nice Guy dues, and has claimed his prize, and all ownership rights thus granted.  You’d better cut off all contact with this ex-guy.  You owe your current boyfriend.

“and how does “I just do what I want, when I want” not betray a deep bitterness and poutingly childish refusal to engage with women on anything but a superficial level?

Turning to poorly feigned sociopathy ain’t the answer, dude.”

I mean, if I want to go fishing, I go fishing.  If I want to go for a run, I go for a run.  I have friends and four brothers and I want to hang with them from time to time and drink whiskey and smoke.  Women can accompany me as my guests if they so please.  I don’t have an overweening desire to please, or “trade favors,” or trade what you might presume is good “boyfriend behavior” for sex.  I’m kind and generous for my own reasons, and I don’t give gifts with strings or strike tacit bargains.  Simple enough, but too complicated for you?

@ellen:
Yeah, I second Gavel and Jenny.  Get rid of this guy.  You have a name already.  And your post reads like a perfectly reasonable and level headed break-up script.  If he knows that you think this, then maybe he will seek to improve himself.

I don’t have an overweening desire to please, or “trade favors,” or trade what you might presume is good “boyfriend behavior” for sex.

So you’ve ceased looking for a romantic relationship because it’s too complicated to take someone else’s feelings and desires into account as well as your own?

And you still think sex is something you can trade for?

I think I understand quite well.

Please remain single, for the good of all of us.

Or my personal nearly-broke-up-our-relationship-before-it-got-started favorite: “If you keep being civil friends to your ex-boyfriend, people will think you still love him and that I’m an impotent cuckold.”

DTMFA.

Aside from having found a man educated enough to know the term cuckold - which I suppose doesn’t automatically mean he’s read The Canterbury Tales as much as it may mean he watches Cuckold-porn online - it sounds more like this guy intends to use guilt and passive-aggressive manipulation in order to get his childish way with you.

Ellen, have a frank talk to him. It might be jealousy or feelings of inadequacy compared to your ex - if so, you can probably reassure him and his fears might fade over time. Or he might be a humungous wankstain, I can’t tell over the internet. Like Jenny says though, red flags. Distant sirens.

“Awesome! And http://www.hipsterfuckstick.com is still available. Better snag it now.”
It also sounds vaguely like it could be the name of a Ben & Jerry’s flavor, no?

Thanks for the advice. I don’t think he’s genuinely manipulative - he always insists I should do what makes me happy, but of course, I can tell he’s still sad / bothered / upset by it. Tried some serious talks and reassurances because, hell, I used to be the most clingy person ever so I hate to judge.

Just wondering if there was a way to tell the difference between a Nice Guy and a genuinely nice guy with minor bouts of low self-esteem…..

And, Eric, LOL. Ironically, that *particular* issue has been since solved by my ex-boyfriend deciding that, in fact, I WAS right for him and - actually - the ONLY right for him, and it’s now too painful to ever see me, talk to me, or be polite to me ever again. I don’t think the ex is a Nice Guy - just completely insane when it comes to relationships.

I will now cease attention-whoring. Thanks!

“So you’ve ceased looking for a romantic relationship because it’s too complicated to take someone else’s feelings and desires into account as well as your own?

And you still think sex is something you can trade for?

I think I understand quite well.

Please remain single, for the good of all of us.”

Mmmm . . . thanks for putting words in my mouth.  They’re tasty, like pie.

I thought the difference between ordinary dork and Nice Guy TM was the sense of entitlement in the latter just for being nice and his resentment at not getting laid despite being nice.  By that standard I was often a dork but never a Nice Guy.  I just assumed I was too average or too dorky for women I was attracted to but who didn’t give me the time of day.  I never resented them.  I never stalked them either.  At the height of my dorkiness I just wouldn’t try for someone, assuming she wouldn’t have anything to do with me.  Those phases usually passed once I stopped trying so hard or worrying so much and just got interested in doing stuff.  Oh, and buying a cute dog helped.  (just kidding)

I was thinking Hipster-Fuckstick would make a good double-barrelled aristocratic surname. Georgina Hipster-Fuckstick? Yes, she was at Roedean with me! One of the Hampshire Hipster-Fucksticks.

So that bit I quoted, that means something completely different then?  Enlighten me!

Cause that, combined with that first bit about “lessons you might not like” seems to indicate that you’ve decided to take your ball(s) and go home, and that you expect women to react to this with something other than a massive kegger in celebration.

Thanks for the advice. I don’t think he’s genuinely manipulative - he always insists I should do what makes me happy, but of course, I can tell he’s still sad / bothered / upset by it.

This is what being manipulated by a passive-aggressive conflict avoider involves. Run, don’t walk, for the door. Okay, I’ll shut up now.

I don’t think he’s genuinely manipulative - he always insists I should do what makes me happy, but of course, I can tell he’s still sad / bothered / upset by it.

Calling his bluff should result in an interesting tantrum.

Also, you might want to ask yourself why you’re so attuned to his emotions when he, clearly, isn’t attuned to yours. Why is it your job to make sure that he isn’t sad / bothered / upset? I mean, do you think he worries about telling you that you can’t talk to your ex because he’s afraid it will upset you? He obviously doesn’t.

Perhaps it’s not their indifference that’s attractive, but the lack of their usual creepy behavior thats less unattractive.

That’s pretty much how it works out in my favour: the other clods have set the bar low enough that even I can come off looking good with minimal effort. And minimal effort is sort of the point.

Looking back, I was probably a Nice Guy™ for a year or 2 in HS. Then I went college, found out that hot, smart, and sexy girls sometimes wanted more from me than platonic friendship and/or favours/gifts, and I was off to the races.

“So that bit I quoted, that means something completely different then?  Enlighten me!”

It means what it states, in context with “kind and generous,” rather than what you would contrue it to mean in order to have a go it some massive strawman.

As an example, if I don’t particularly like spending time with a woman’s friend’s boyfriend, I’ll say so, so there will be no excruciating “double date” or I won’t be left alone with him to entertain him.  The same goes for films/media/music/events that I don’t like.  I don’t like the Dave Matthews Band, so I won’t go to a concert.  I don’t pressure women the other way, so it kind of works out.

Ellen, make him exchange “people will think” to “I think” and have him talk about his feelings so the two of you can deal with them.  It’s not unusual to have jealous feelings and perhaps all he’s seeking in an odd controlling way is reassurance.  It could just be a bad habit of attributing his feelings to the rest of your society and you can help him break it.  He must have other good qualities or you wouldn’t “love” him as you said.

I’ll join in the fray. Why not? It’s fun.

Propaganda Due, there’s doing your own thing and then there’s doing your own thing, if you will bear with me.

It’s one thing entirely to - particularly when single or beginning a new relationship - to say, “Hey, I’ve got basketball plans for Thursday night, do you wanna come or do you want to do your own thing with the girls / family / CSI:Miami.” Okay, that’s fine. It’s independence and sense of self and it’s a good thing.

It’s another thing entirely to - well into a serious, long-term relationship - say, “Hey, I’m going up to Ohio to visit my family for Christmas, it makes no difference to me whether you come along or not.” There are a couple of problems with this. One is that, at this stage of time investment and seriousness, you should kind of *want* your SO to be along for serious occasions like this. The other is, you are neglecting the fact that this Once-A-Year-Event is something that she may want to spend with you AND with *her* family. Your indifference makes her feel that ( A ) you’re not really that serious about her (else you’d want her along) and ( B ) you’re not really that sensitive to her feelings (by not realizing / caring that maybe she wanted some kind of Christmas-One-Year-With-Yours-Next-Year-With-Mine compromise).

I’m assuming by “I do what I want”, you mean the first behavior - the healthy one. The problem is that this is only healthy in certain situations and it’s easy to slide into the anti-social apathy of situation 2.

Or I’m projecting - I’ve been that girl, and I’m not terribly unbiased.

Ellen - Everyone else has said this perfectly adequately already, but your boy sounds emotionally abusive.  Get out now before he ruins YOUR self esteem.

Looking back, I was probably a Nice Guy™ for a year or 2 in HS. Then I went college, found out that hot, smart, and sexy girls sometimes wanted more from me than platonic friendship and/or favours/gifts, and I was off to the races.

...To claim the Triple Crown Prize?  You learned your lesson, and now the prizes are flowing in!

I don’t think this is the sort of advice Nice Guys(or guys in general!)need.  I think they need to learn that a) dating isn’t going to the races, and b) fucking isn’t a prize you win for going through the correct motions in the correct order.

Ellen:

Maybe your boyfriend is a Nice Guy or something, but if you love him, perhaps you can try to see his issues through his eyes and come to a different understanding and perhaps empathy.  Maybe not, which is OK too.  Would you be comfortable with him hanging out/being civil with his ex, if you perceived her as highly desirable by lots of men?  Maybe, maybe not.

I’m loving love today.

This is what being manipulated by a passive-aggressive conflict avoider involves.

Taylor: Shit, I hadn’t thought of it that way. :(

Also, you might want to ask yourself why you’re so attuned to his emotions when he, clearly, isn’t attuned to yours. Why is it your job to make sure that he isn’t sad / bothered / upset?

Mighty Ponygirl: Hmm, hadn’t thought of that, either. Generally, I elicit the discussions with “I can tell you’re sad - do you want to talk about it?” forays. If he says ‘no’, I just leave it alone, but generally he’s willing to get it off his chest. Comes from a lifelong guilt-inducing mother and soceital conditioning on my part? Not sure how to fix that…..

It’s not unusual to have jealous feelings and perhaps all he’s seeking in an odd controlling way is reassurance.  It could just be a bad habit of attributing his feelings to the rest of your society and you can help him break it.  He must have other good qualities or you wouldn’t “love” him as you said.

MiddleageLiberal, I’m sort of hoping it’s just the general insecurities we all deal with. My ex is/was the “popular guy” in the room (which isn’t saying much - we’re a bland group) and my boyfriend seems to have a few “I don’t measure up / I’m a rebound guy” issues. I hope.

Oh, and ‘cuckold’ was my own word. Mea culpa on Chaucer reading.

Prop -  Being honest about what you like and don’t is great, but close relationships involve a certain amount of sacrifice on both ends.  If you’ve given that up entirely, whatever works for you, but you’re missing out on emotional intimacy.

And also if that’s all you were saying, the initial “that you might not like” bit makes no sense at all.

In fact, if that’s all you were saying, the rest of your posts make very little sense.

“I’m assuming by “I do what I want”, you mean the first behavior - the healthy one. The problem is that this is only healthy in certain situations and it’s easy to slide into the anti-social apathy of situation 2.”

Ellen - you’re more or less correct.  I’ve learned not to become comsumed by attraction and to keep things in perspective - that’s all.

Would you be comfortable with him hanging out/being civil with his ex, if you perceived her as highly desirable by lots of men?  Maybe, maybe not

But i’m willing to bet she’d see it as her problem, not his.

...fucking isn’t a prize you win for going through the correct motions in the correct order.

God, I’m completely SPAMing today and I’m sorry, but this reminds me of a Sunday School class series I had as a teenager.

The middle aged married teacher explained to us - boys and girls together - that sex is something that married people do after a certain number of hoops had been jumped through. He seriously made it sound like the clock was reset at the beginning of each month and if he brough her flowers on week 1, did the laundry on week 2, and gave her a “mom’s night out” on week 3, then week 4 would have the (one night, one time, only!) sweet reward of sex.

And then it started all over again.

At this point in my life, I’m a freaking 16 year old girl who would KILL for flowers, and even *I* thought that was the most effed up thing I’d ever heard. I swear he was serious. Dead serious.

“Prop - Being honest about what you like and don’t is great, but close relationships involve a certain amount of sacrifice on both ends.  If you’ve given that up entirely, whatever works for you, but you’re missing out on emotional intimacy.”

Well, I seem to find enough common ground and interests to make do, and to have emotional intimacy.  I don’t need, nor want, someone who is the female equivalent of myself, nor do I want someone who’ll just die if her boyfriend isn’t doting about every waking minute. 

“And also if that’s all you were saying, the initial “that you might not like” bit makes no sense at all.”

What that means is that those lessons may be in contradiction with feminist orthodoxy, so they needn’t be hashed out in a place where they would be less than welcome.  In sum, however, if an attractive woman tells you that she just wants a nice guy who understands her, you shouldn’t give her words much credence.

At THAT point in my life, I WAS a freaking 16 year old girl…

Fixed it. I’m about twice that age now, haha. Sorry for the ambiguity.

I actually think Prop migth have had a point, somewhere up towards the top.  If you ever find yourself plagued by a Nice Guy (TM), and want to rid yourself of him, it does not work to be subtle, or indirect, or passive in your attempts to disentangle.  Blunt and direct action is the only way for them to understand.  Anything less direct than “you creep me out, and you need to stop” can be rationalized away all too easily or could go straight over their head.

I’ve been friends with Nice Guys (TM) in the wild, and all my anecdata points to the utter failure of subtlety.

“Maybe your boyfriend is a Nice Guy or something, but if you love him, perhaps you can try to see his issues through his eyes and come to a different understanding and perhaps empathy.  Maybe not, which is OK too.  Would you be comfortable with him hanging out/being civil with his ex, if you perceived her as highly desirable by lots of men?”

Fail.
She is clearly being more empathetic than he is if he is trying to limit her contact with one of her co-workers.  Empathy is not the solution when your partner is jealous.  Also, if he thinks your ex is more desirable and he left you to chase pussy, that means he thinks if HE were more desirable he would chase pussy too and wouldn’t be exclusively with you?  I think he is insulting you, if you follow his train of thought a bit further.

I don’t have an overweening desire to please, or “trade favors,” or trade what you might presume is good “boyfriend behavior” for sex.

All guys struggle or struggled with Nice Guyism at one point, and a lot of times find their way out of it and learn lessons that you might not agree with or approve of.

You still seem to think this I’ll-Pretend-To-Care-About-Your-Feelings-If-You-Put-Out trade is something that women want or expect.

What that means is that those lessons may be in contradiction with feminist orthodoxy, so they needn’t be hashed out in a place where they would be less than welcome.

There’s a Feminist Orthodoxy?

In sum, however, if an attractive woman tells you that she just wants a nice guy who understands her, you shouldn’t give her words much credence.

Um…you lost me here. Is this lack of credence stemming from the fact that Women Are Lying Liars or the fact that Women Don’t Know What They Want?

. . . a Sunday School class series I had as a teenager.

Oooh, ouch.

The middle aged married teacher explained to us - boys and girls together - that sex is something that married people do after a certain number of hoops had been jumped through. . . . I swear he was serious. Dead serious.

As awful as that is, it seems a bit of a step up from expecting your wife to perform JUST because you’re The Husband, which seems to be a much more common idea in the religious community.  Not expecting real respect for their wives to be cropping up any time soon, though.

Religious people often have a similar disease to Nice Guys.  You see, they’ve waited and been celibate all their lives, and now that they’re married, it’s time to cash in on all that lost time, and she better not say no, the frigid bitch!

What that means is that those lessons may be in contradiction with feminist orthodoxy, so they needn’t be hashed out in a place where they would be less than welcome.  In sum, however, if an attractive woman tells you that she just wants a nice guy who understands her, you shouldn’t give her words much credence.

At this point I have to ask what you think “feminist orthodoxy” is.  And what you think women (the monolithic structure known as Cunt - they’re all the same) “really” want.

“You still seem to think this I’ll-Pretend-To-Care-About-Your-Feelings-If-You-Put-Out trade is something that women want or expect.”

You’re wearing a turban and in a carnie stand that says “The Great Zoltar,” correct?  Your mind reading is clearly sub-par.

I hope you don’t mind our tossing in to your situation, Ellen.  If you do, just say enough.

my boyfriend seems to have a few “I don’t measure up / I’m a rebound guy” issues.

Ack, danger Will Robinson.  I hope that’s a reflection of not being together very long, otherwise I would see that as a sign that he has serious self-confidence issues you will have difficulty assuaging or you’re engaging in tortuous behavior yourself to spark his jealous anxiety.  All we know of him, obviously, is what you’ve written and what similar behaviors we’ve seen in our own experiences which we project onto him.

Also, if he thinks your ex is more desirable and he left you to chase pussy, that means he thinks if HE were more desirable he would chase pussy too and wouldn’t be exclusively with you?  I think he is insulting you, if you follow his train of thought a bit further.

Well…that confused me, too, but that was why I thought “Maybe he’s a Nice Guy?” Because I’m not up on the lingo, but isn’t one of the central Nice Guy tenants that ‘Chicks Dig Assholes’? So I take it that he thinks that Ex is an Asshole, therefore Chicks Dig Him, and he’s dumped Awesome Girl (me) to go after Multiple Girls (notches on the bedpost, dontchano) and he - Nice Guy - can now be with Awesome Girl and Asshole can languish in the cold (what happened to the Chicks Who Dig Him?? they disappeared).

Now if only Awesome Girl could be slightly more Awesome and realize the reality of this polarized, comic-book situation. Isn’t that Nice Guyism?

(Not sure that this is what my *real* guy-who-is-also-nice is thinking.)

Which is why, rather than correcting it and clearing up those two really horrible quotes of yours, you make a bad 80s movie reference. 

You were the captain of your debate team in high school, i’m guessing?

I think a lot of these problems can be traced back to the fact that puberty doesn’t really come with an instruction manual(nor does dating),that negative feedback loops develop early and that it can be a long time before there’s enough error accumulation to force a serious reboot and reformatting.  Mixing metaphors there, but hopefully the point is still in there somewhere.

“Um…you lost me here. Is this lack of credence stemming from the fact that Women Are Lying Liars or the fact that Women Don’t Know What They Want?”

Perhaps what they want and what attracts them are different things entirely.  Often, it is the same for men.  I don’t really consider it a big deal.  However, if you do the calculations, the spoken desire for a nice guy accounts for a good bit of Nice Guys, because they think it is like mind reading or something.

“What that means is that those lessons may be in contradiction with feminist orthodoxy, so they needn’t be hashed out in a place where they would be less than welcome.  In sum, however, if an attractive woman tells you that she just wants a nice guy who understands her, you shouldn’t give her words much credence.”

I bet you get turned on when condoms break.

MiddleageLiberal,

Yeah, I guess I neglected a couple of details there.

Approx time together: Only a few months, not long.
Approx time this has come up: Only a few times (3? 4? ish) and briefly, besides the initial spat which ended very well, or I would have left then and there.

Other than that, absolute angel, really. I’m trying to be open minded AND smart about all this, but if I have to leave, it’s not a big deal. Just wondering if there’s a Myers-Briggs way to pin him down and label him and, of course, it’s never that easy. And I *do* hate this pressure (from society) that women really should change their names - ugh.

“Which is why, rather than correcting it and clearing up those two really horrible quotes of yours, you make a bad 80s movie reference.”

1) Zoltar exists(ed) in Asbury Park.

2) The quotes are “horrible” entirely within the confines of your own skull, where they’ve mixed with all sorts of strange stuff that was in there to begin with.

I’ve been mildly fascinating with the Prop exchange. 

As far as the Ellen question… I’m a bit torn.  I certainly see flags and sirens, but I do think there is danger in saying “He wants me to be happy, but I can see these things make him sad” means someone is a passive-aggressive manipulator.  Of course, this IS a fine strategy for a passive-aggressive manipulator to take, but sometimes people want you to be happy, but struggle with the choices you make because they hurt them.

I just don’t want it as a blanket statement, I guess.

I will say that the specific examples she has cited raise lots of red flags with me, though.

@ellen
Yeah, the name changing is one of my biggest pet peeves.  Even hipster 19 year olds will flip when they learn I only use my original name.  They come up with such contrived reasons for name-change too!

Ellen, either dump him or get him to a counselor to get help with his priorities and low self-image. He’s either already starting to try and control you (which leads to abuse in many cases) or he’s just terribly insecure, which will still lead to control issues and misery.

Does he?  I shall have to visit.

Those quotes, I shouldn’t have to point out, sounded horrible to everyone else, too. 

And you still haven’t explained what “feminist orthodoxy” is.  I’m waiting.

Perhaps what they want and what attracts them are different things entirely.

Ah. Women’s hearts demand nice guys but those damned vaginas keep dragging them off to the jerks. I know MY vagina does, the worthless thing.

Okay, that was trolly of me, and I’m sorry, but that’s seriously what that sounds like! Either you have to admit that both men AND women sometimes want mutually exclusive things (example, I like men who cook, but I prefer to eat things I prepare myself) and therefore is not noteworthy (because it’s a human thing, not a woman thing) or you have to be ready to back-up why women supposedly do this more than men (and therefore IS noteworthy).

Silly women, to say “nice” and not assume it means endless feigned platonic devotion combined with barely concealed simmering bitter rage.

They sure are unfair to Nice Guys.

As far as the Ellen question… I’m a bit torn.  I certainly see flags and sirens, but I do think there is danger in saying “He wants me to be happy, but I can see these things make him sad” means someone is a passive-aggressive manipulator.  Of course, this IS a fine strategy for a passive-aggressive manipulator to take, but sometimes people want you to be happy, but struggle with the choices you make because they hurt them.

Mmph, and I hate to try to decide either way because I hate judging people (and I have bad people-judgment, period).

I wonder if there is a label for me: “Aggressive asks you about your feelings but Passive doesn’t try to judge or change you and is possibly a Sensible person, but could be an Emotional Idiot”?

Yes, the universe has righted itself in that regards, and then it flipped over and re-fucked-up.  Two words: “skinny jeans”.

Bugger.  It’s taken me this long to work from sweatsuit pants to cargo pants, and now you’re changing the friggin’ rules *again*?

“In sum, however, if an attractive woman tells you that she just wants a nice guy who understands her, you shouldn’t give her words much credence.”
Yeah, especially if she’s a blonde.  Everybody knows blondes just want to snag college football players and share them with their 4 girl-cousins from Holland.

I’m not attracted to indifference.  It’s a waste of time.  But I’m not a member of the Attractive Girls Union.  Smart-Mouthed Union bylaws are different.

Bwahahah. Te nosce, Marcotte.

wait.

are you saying that “intelligent, funny, interesting, [and] fun to spend time around” aren’t just euphemisms for “hot” when used about women?

“Ah. Women’s hearts demand nice guys but those damned vaginas keep dragging them off to the jerks. I know MY vagina does, the worthless thing.”

I’d have agreed with you 15 years ago.  Since then I’ve seen too many things that confirm my understanding.  How many of you say “This morning, I’ll go to the Federal Courthouse to sit devotedly for every day of a four week trial of a conspiracy/murder for the chance to be smiled at by a wiseguy with whom I had had no previous relationship?” 

People are a weird mix of stuff, a lot of which is subterranean and perhaps dark, but affects human behavior nonetheless.

I hope we can all agree that less Guild Drama makes the world a better place.

Ellen, have you looked around Heartless Bitches International?  They have a lot of Nice-Guy related posts and such. 

I don’t think, though, that there’s a definite cutoff for DTMFA.  If the manipulative weirdness is too frequent or not balanced by the times when you communicate clearly and well, then yeah, maybe his insecurities are getting in the way of a healthy relationship.  It sounds like he needs to own his feelings a bit more and let you know when stuff upsets him, and maybe you can both identify ways to communicate better, and maybe counseling can help.  After a while, if the situation hasn’t changed, it won’t.

are you saying that “intelligent, funny, interesting, [and] fun to spend time around” aren’t just euphemisms for “hot” when used about women?

Oooh.  Now I see why the guys look at me so funny when I use those adjectives about our 73 year old law professor.

Since then I’ve seen too many things that confirm my understanding.  How many of you say “This morning, I’ll go to the Federal Courthouse to sit devotedly for every day of a four week trial of a conspiracy/murder for the chance to be smiled at by a wiseguy with whom I had had no previous relationship?”

People are a weird mix of stuff, a lot of which is subterranean and perhaps dark, but affects human behavior nonetheless.

What the bleeding hell is that even supposed to mean?

What’s a wiseguy?

Who are you saying does this?

How does it pertain to the “women say they want nice guys but really want jerks” trope?

Hate to chastise my hip friends, but you probably shouldn’t be going around telling strangers online that they should dump their SOs.  Regardless if you think the poster is just too naive, stupid, or whatever to make up their own mind.. The assumption should always be that they’ll do what’s right for their own life in the circumstances.  Asking for insight is different from asking for instructions on what to do with their life.

Ellen,

I have no idea if there is a convenient name and label for that. ^_^

I’m going to second lonespark on the “no definite cutoff” for DTMFA. My current partner has bouts of terrible communication (and knows it, which is an improvement on my previous, who didn’t know it). I have bouts of insecurity. All of that kind of frailty is very human. It’s how far the balance is one way or another.

Nice Guys®.

We’ve been over this ground before, PropagandaDue.  It’s really simple: Nice Guyism® is pretty much exactly what multiple commenters have detailed it is.

If a male is in a relationship where he’s the exploited party (i.e.: being led on as a way of obtaining emotional favours) then it may or may not be Nice Guyism® depending on how he reacts, but he does have an obligation to himself to get the hell out. 

The rules are simple:
If you are male in an emotional relationship and only present the emotions as a manipulative tool to get sex, or if you operate under the assumption that being a nice guy gives you an automatic entitlement to sex or romance then you’re a Nice Guy®.
If you are female and in a relationship where you are exploiting a man’s feelings for you as a means to keep a valuable emotional support on the hook, then you’re a shit. 

Leading somebody on sexually or emotionally or romantically in order to extract a benefit is a nasty thing to do.  But being an entitled asshole who thinks that pussy drops from heaven as a reward for just being a decent man (or pretending to be one) makes a man a cobag.

Look, let’s concede right off that some girls/women are assholes about it.  Welcome to the human race: some women can be every bit the jerks some men can be.  Most guys who are good, sensitive listeners have had to listen to a girl / woman who you thought you was a true friend blather on about her shitty taste in boyfriends, whose vices generally correspond to your virtues.  It happens.  Word to the Nice Guys® : man up and get over it.  Either dump the person from your friendship or shut up and accept that it is an irritating habit of a good friend.  If it’s a friendship in your youth then she may grow out of the silly habit as you grow out of your irritation.  One of my closest friends fits in that category: she didn’t descend into exploitation and I didn’t descend into bitter Nice Guyism®.  And if somebody as frequently emotionally immature and self-centred as me can do it then it’s pretty much a no-brainer for the rest of the gender.

Approx time together: Only a few months, not long.
Approx time this has come up: Only a few times (3? 4? ish) and briefly, besides the initial spat which ended very well, or I would have left then and there.

Ellen, OK, I’m back to thinking he expressed some normal insecurities and jealousies of a new relationship, partly because the good sense I read from you in the other-than-boyfriend posts gives me some trust in your taste and judgment in picking him.  But if he ever says “people will think” again slap him with, “Don’t pull that crap again! Tell me what you think or feel about it!” 

If he has sufficient self-confidence to avoid whining and passive-aggressive there isn’t anything wrong with being Awesome Girl in his eyes is there?

I mean, if I want to go fishing, I go fishing.  If I want to go for a run, I go for a run.  I have friends and four brothers and I want to hang with them from time to time and drink whiskey and smoke.  Women can accompany me as my guests if they so please… I’m kind and generous for my own reasons, and I don’t give gifts with strings or strike tacit bargains.

Except if a woman has the nerve to act the same way, and her plans don’t involve a roll in the hay with you, that’s horribly dysfunctional and unfair behavior. 

Interesting.

I love my boyfriend, but he definitely can get a little pouty about things that seem awfully clingy. Example: “If you don’t take my name when/if we marry, people will think you don’t love me.” Or my personal nearly-broke-up-our-relationship-before-it-got-started favorite: “If you keep being civil friends to your ex-boyfriend, people will think you still love him and that I’m an impotent cuckold.”

Ellen, that sounds like controlling behaviour.  If it was just the latter thing, I’d suggest there was a chance he was dealing with trust issues from a past relationship (seen that dynamic play out among friends), but the name thing as well?

You better sit down and assess how much he attempts to make you into what he wants you to be, and perhaps test it with asserting some sort of independent activity which wouldn’t trigger jealousy and watching his reaction.

If he is trying to control you, get out.  You don’t need it and it could turn ugly later.

Eric - You’re absolutely right, of course.  In mild mitigation, I don’t think anyone does actually dump their SO as a result of these online chats though, and it wakes one up to danger signals in a way that less direct language doesn’t.

But, mea culpa.  Whatever makes Ellen happiest is of course the best.  I’ve just had really shitty relationships where the same sort of dynamic popped up, so am wary of having anyone else go through the awful crap I put up with.

“How does it pertain to the “women say they want nice guys but really want jerks” trope?”

It may or may not.  He was a rackateer, attempted murderer, murderer, and theif.  I’d say a bit more than a jerk.  You will adjudge it false because it conflicts with your ideology.

Maybe it is power or authority or something like that that got Henry Kissinger laid.

Ellen - just a little bit of semi-solicited advice:

How much time have you spent wondering about your bf’s motives in asking you these questions?  How much time have you spent discussing them on the internet, and with friends?  How long have these issues been rolling around in your brain?

Now - is it worth it?

I do this all the damn time, and it’s never worth it.  You’re (from what I can tell here) young and clever and caring, and yet you’re spending all this time thinking about a guy who doesn’t trust you.  Because that’s the conclusion you can most definitely take from these spats:  he doesn’t trust you. 

If you feel like you should have earned his trust by now, and he still sees fit to get in spats about this stuff, he’s got deep stuff to work out.  And you may feel, right now, like you want to hold his hand through that process.  But he probably won’t do it.  He probably will skate around the issue and find a way to make you feel bad for suggesting he work through his shit, which he has no intention of doing, because it’s hard, and he doesn’t trust you.

Which leads me back to the first question:  how much time have you spent on this guy?  Is it worth it?

Gavel Down, I think it’s a reference to that puzzling breed of female who becomes emotionally attached to total, total criminal slime.  I’ve seen ‘em in action: one woman was enthralled with the man who brutally murdered a member of my family.  Sat there through the evidence of the hideous killing, sat there as a scarred and terrified former girlfriend detailed his multiple assaults on her, and still tried to slip the killer smokes and kisses every chance she got.

Thanks for the advice. I don’t think he’s genuinely manipulative - he always insists I should do what makes me happy, but of course, I can tell he’s still sad / bothered / upset by it.

Been there, done that.  It doesn’t get better.  Dump the motherfucker already.  Be firm, even if it feels a little heartless.  It took me two months to get rid of mine, and all I did by being too nice was create a need to be absolutely heartless later because he just would not stop trying to get back together if I left even a hint of possibility.  Could have been worse, though.  He was a little scary at the end.

“Except if a woman has the nerve to act the same way, and her plans don’t involve a roll in the hay with you, that’s horribly dysfunctional and unfair behavior.”

I don’t believe we’ve met, yet you seem to have an awful lot of information about me that I have not shared.

It’s also about having an extremely narrow set of physical criteria for potential partners, but then being mystified and angry if an when potential partners have *any* physical criteria.

Ditto.

I was also surprised to hear that being slightly overweight and having frizzy hair means I’m not attractive.

People are a weird mix of stuff, a lot of which is subterranean and perhaps dark, but affects human behavior nonetheless.

What the bleeding hell is that even supposed to mean?

i’m guessing that, like many studies of human sexuality show, humans in general do not have conscious access to much of the cognition that underlies their behavior (e.g. subterranean = pre/unconscious).  people frankly ignore most of the criteria they claim they use when choosing a partner when they actually choose partners.

What’s a wiseguy?

a mobster.

Who are you saying does this?

their wives and girlfriends.

How does it pertain to the “women say they want nice guys but really want jerks” trope?

i think the assumption is that criminals are not Nice Guys, but rather jerks. i’m not sure the assumption is warranted, since “Nice Guys” as defined here seems more like “Go Sissy for Pussy” than genuinely nice. maybe mobsters aren’t down with that, though…

I don’t think this is the sort of advice Nice Guys(or guys in general!)need.  I think they need to learn that a) dating isn’t going to the races, and b) fucking isn’t a prize you win for going through the correct motions in the correct order.

Oh, for goodness sake, it’s an expression meaning “off and running, no worries”. I was going to add “(but not to the games)” after it, but then I figured I could give this crowd the benefit of the doubt in not taking expressions literally. Sheesh!

These poor stupid bastards.  Far better for them to realize that they are profoundly unlikely to find any happiness with these women - that what makes people happy in the end is somebody to love (not some airbrushed image to behold), something useful to do and something to which to look forward.  People who have these three things rarely stay miserable, biochemical issues aside.

It may or may not.  He was a rackateer, attempted murderer, murderer, and theif.  I’d say a bit more than a jerk.  You will adjudge it false because it conflicts with your ideology.

Soooo, a (very few) emotionally disturbed people seek out horribly depraved criminals because they have twisted redemption fantasies, and you think this means women want jerks?

For the third and final time, tell me what the fuck you think my ideology IS.  Otherwise I can’t tell what you’re disagreeing with.

Maybe it is power or authority or something like that that got Henry Kissinger laid.

It’s Kissinger we’re talking about here, so I don’t want to be TOO charitable, but it’s completely possible that he was able to get laid not only because he had the power to make his aspirations a reality(instead of a constantly frustrated pie-in-the-sky dream), but also because he was a really kickass guy with his friends.  I hear he’s quite charming.

Oh, for goodness sake, it’s an expression meaning “off and running, no worries”. I was going to add “(but not to the games)” after it, but then I figured I could give this crowd the benefit of the doubt in not taking expressions literally. Sheesh!

Good intentions aside, at least you can see how this can get misconstrued.  Apologies for misconstruing. >_<

@Eric:
You might be right, but when I ask the internet for advice, I want the advice that my friends an family will be to sensible to give.  I want entertainment and exaggeration.  I want advice based on MY side of the story.  I think that’s why we are all so enthusiastic about DTMFA. 

@Prop:
I watch Law&Order;too.  I also watch Looney Tunes, but I know that in real life, rabbits don’t talk.

Ellen, all I can say is that I wouldn’t put up with that shit.

I mean, all of us have weak moments when we say something dumb that was less mature than we really are when we think about it. But for him it seems like a habitual thing. I hear the warning bells, too. If I’d talked to him about how I feel about that stuff and he still pulls it, you’ve got trouble. I’d run.

For someone who accuses everyone else of mind reading, Prop, you’re remarkably unclear about what you’re trying to say or what it is you think we disagree on.

seeker - i getcha.  There are truly insane people out there.  However, how one gets to B from A in his argument still, somehow, escapes me.  I’m still not even sure what B is.

@Bruce:
That’s really nice.  I’ll keep that in mind.

you seem to have an awful lot of information about me that I have not shared.

The top of the thread is a long way up there by now, but I seem to recall you saying something like how it’s “dysfunctional” (I believe that’s the word you used?) for a woman to do something like invite a man out for coffee with no intention of fucking him, especially if she knows he’s interested in her.  But if you decide to go and do something, just because you wanna, regardless of the minutia of your interpersonal dynamics, that’s not dysfunctional but perfectly healthy.

‘Splain?

Sorry, that should read “A to B”

“Soooo, a (very few) emotionally disturbed people seek out horribly depraved criminals because they have twisted redemption fantasies, and you think this means women want jerks?”

How do you know that they are “emotionally disturbed?”  And I’m quite certain that, at least with wiseguys, the women don’t want them to stop.  More likely, they rationalize that his murders are strictly business and not personal.

But you can bet that a wiseguy is pretty confident and sure of himself, even if that which makes him confident is abhorrent.  Wink, wink, nudge nudge. 

There are certain predicates that “jerks” (in Nice Guy parlance) possess, that are not necessary to being a jerk, and which women gravitate towards.

Gavel Down: A or B or whatever, I think that some people err in the conclusions they draw from such situations.  The fact that the gf of which I spoke was either an idiot or suicidal or emotionally disturbed doesn’t reflect on women: it reflects on the fact that some people are idiots or suicidal or emotionally disturbed.  Nice Guys (TM, Copyright, All Rights Reserved) tend to reach for the most egregiously bad examples of female behaviour and extrapolate out from there.

“I watch Law&Order;too.  I also watch Looney Tunes, but I know that in real life, rabbits don’t talk.”

I was with the United States Attorney’s Office Organized Crime “Strike Force.”  So, you know, there’s that.

As for the Nice Guys, all I can say is I’m so glad I’m past the age of getting hit on! Being over 40, I’m off the Nice Guys’ radar because, you know, once a woman reaches a certain age, her vagina dries up and turns into a place to store extra quarters for the car wash. It’s very convenient.

Nice Guys are all over that MILF stuff, because, exactly that last sentence.  Since you’re “too old” to be classically beautiful, they’re being Super Nice by giving you attention you don’t deserve for committing the sin of being old.  Now pay up!

(remember, Nice Guys don’t “hit on” women, they’re just “Nice”, with the expectation that the unworthy female “beneficiary” of their “Niceness” must then reciprocate with sex)

“How do you know that they are “emotionally disturbed?” And I’m quite certain that, at least with wiseguys, the women don’t want them to stop.  More likely, they rationalize that his murders are strictly business and not personal.”

Sorry Prop.  This is where I check out.  I see now why you don’t get laid.  Too much TV.  More jogging and you’ll be onto something, kiddo!

“But if you decide to go and do something, just because you wanna, regardless of the minutia of your interpersonal dynamics, that’s not dysfunctional but perfectly healthy.

‘Splain?”

I’m not using another person to fulfill my needs without reciprocating in kind.  If I used a woman for sex, pretending that there was a possibility of a committed relationship in order to do it - that would be an analagous situation.

“Sorry Prop.  This is where I check out.  I see now why you don’t get laid.  Too much TV.  More jogging and you’ll be onto something, kiddo!”

If only I had a picture of you - gee, that would sort of function like a punchline, making your whole online persona absurd, wouldn’t it?

I don’t think he’s genuinely manipulative - he always insists I should do what makes me happy, but of course, I can tell he’s still sad / bothered / upset by it.

::cough:: denial!!! ::cough::

I know there’s been 1K posts about this since you posted the above, Ellen, but C’MON!!!  His LETTING you see his bother IS the manipulation!!!!111eleventy!  Then you do all his work (altering your behaviour) yourself.  It’s a classic.

DTMFA, and find an adult.

“Am I a hipster fuckstick, or do you have to be a dude who is snarky as opposed to a mere life support system for the vagina?”

If you put your mind to it, Amanda .  .  .

If only I had a picture of you - gee, that would sort of function like a punchline, making your whole online persona absurd, wouldn’t it?

shorter prop: I have to pretend you’re ugly, so that it won’t bother me that you know how much of a douchenozzle I am.

I was with the United States Attorney’s Office Organized Crime “Strike Force.” So, you know, there’s that.

And yet again, we see that thing where the troll always has some amazingly high-powered super cool job which gives him special expertise in this situation.  Except this guy has two, which is pretty ambitious for a member of the cheeto set.  A college football player AND a federal attorney busting organized crime?  And you have the time/inclination to troll feminist blogs?  I mean, shouldn’t you be off consulting with a screenwriter who just gota 6-figure option on your life story?

“shorter prop: I have to pretend you’re ugly, so that it won’t bother me that you know how much of a douchenozzle I am.”

A street that goes both ways, I am certain.

For the love of the FSM, prop…I heard boys make your argument in eighth grade.

The ones who still sound like you? Are cruisin’ toward 30 as virgins.

How do you know that they are “emotionally disturbed?” And I’m quite certain that, at least with wiseguys, the women don’t want them to stop.  More likely, they rationalize that his murders are strictly business and not personal.

Jaw.  Floor.

Your opinion of women is not just low, you’d have to dig a fucking well to find it.

But you can bet that a wiseguy is pretty confident and sure of himself, even if that which makes him confident is abhorrent.  Wink, wink, nudge nudge.

So you think women want confidence.  And you’re still perfectly ok with treating half the population as an indistinguishable mass and extrapolating the behavior of the absolute worst people out there (Mobsters, and people who marry them) to, again, HALF the population.

So you’re kind enough to refrain from taking advantage of those poor, dumb animals known as women, because they’re so stupid they can’t help but fall for confidence, any confidence, even though they THINK they want your condescending “niceness.”  That about sum it up?

Yeah, you’re right.  I don’t like it.  I think you’re a sick individual, and i’m very sorry you’re associated with the law in any way.

“A college football player AND a federal attorney busting organized crime?”

I was a “summer associate.”  And, you know, there isn’t a shortage of AUSAs or anything - its a good job, but doesn’t exactly pay very well.  “Strike Force” was in quotes because I always thought it was hilarious.  This, you find, is far fetched?  The same with playing 1AA football?  You’re quite easily impressed.

Hipster fuckstick!  I missed that.  Am I a hipster fuckstick, or do you have to be a dude who is snarky as opposed to a mere life support system for the vagina?

Quit off-topic, but…

Skinny jeans?  Big sunglasses?  Fashion scarf?  “Ironic” t-shirt?  Scene-hair? Living a faux-bohemian lifestyle in a loft in one of the most expensive parts of the city on your parents’ dime which serves to help gentrify the neighborhood?  Buying up all the clothes in the local thrift store, thus denying actual poor people non-destroyed clothes they can afford?  I’d say doing 3 of those 7 is probably a good indicator of where you stand on hipsterism.

I have no idea what you do when you’re not posting here, but the hipsters definitely know who they are.  They probably wear ironic “I’m a Hipster” t-shirts.

A street that goes both ways, I am certain.

Where did I speculate on your attractiveness? I neither know nor care what you look like. You could be George Clooney killing time between film shoots, for all I know. FWIW, I think the running comment was simply a suggestion that you do something useful, rather than watching TV and reading Maxim…nothing to do with how you look.

What is beyond doubt, however, is that you’re a douchenozzle. A sad, sad douchenozzle. In fact, I’ll totally picture you, from now on, as George Clooney, the Sad Douchenozzle.

Am I a hipster fuckstick, or do you have to be a dude who is snarky as opposed to a mere life support system for the vagina?

Okay, question: does ‘fuckstick’ = ‘penis’? As in “He’s not much for conversation, but you should see the curvature of his fuckstick!”

Or, is it more broadly defined to mean anyone acting like a dick? As in “He might shred like a demon, but he’s just another hipster fuckstick.”

I’m not sure being referred to as a hipster fuckstick is desirable. Unless you’re ironically and happily celebrating your badass fuckstickitude.

“So you’re kind enough to refrain from taking advantage of those poor, dumb animals known as women, because they’re so stupid they can’t help but fall for confidence, any confidence, even though they THINK they want your condescending “niceness.” That about sum it up?”

You’ve baked me another word pie!  Deee-lish!

Do fat people “fall” for Popeye’s Fried Chicken?  Is there some incessant propaganda campaign claiming that it is healthful and slimming?  What are the chances they set out that morning determined to have a green, leafy salad for dinner?

Your binary understanding of human motivation and behavior is quaint.

What law school do you go to?  We could BOTH be ignoring a Corporations lecture right now!

Taylor - I think he means I fuck hipsters.

“We could BOTH be ignoring a Corporations lecture right now!”

The correct exam answers are “Business Judgment Rule” and “Fiduciary Duty to Shareholders.”  All else is commentary.

Do fat people “fall” for Popeye’s Fried Chicken?  Is there some incessant propaganda campaign claiming that it is healthful and slimming?  What are the chances they set out that morning determined to have a green, leafy salad for dinner?

So we’re back to women being evil, evil creatures who purposefully choose men that are bad for them. 

Maybe you should try dating men instead, if they’re the only people you can relate to as individuals.

The correct exam answers are “Business Judgment Rule” and “Fiduciary Duty to Shareholders.” All else is commentary.

Says the criminal law student.

I know guys like you, I meet ‘em all the time.  Important tip: cynicism and an affected world-weary air?  Doesn’t make up for being boring.

Prop…
First: “In sum, however, if an attractive woman tells you that she just wants a nice guy who understands her, you shouldn’t give her words much credence. “

Later: “Your binary understanding of human motivation and behavior is quaint.”

Hey Alanis, that’s ACTUALLY ironic.

“So we’re back to women being evil, evil creatures who purposefully choose men that are bad for them.”

You really are a simpleton.  Women chose men whom they find attractive.  What they find attractive is not a totally conscious matter. 

Can we agree that Prince gets laid?  Can we also stipulate that he has a reputation as an other than considerate lover, to say the least?  What is attractive is not necessarily related to wholly negative attributes, but may be accompanied by them, as with jerks.

Taylor - I think he means I fuck hipsters.
Gavel Down on 11/18 at 06:48 PM

I’ll have to go back an re-read the original fuckstick name drop above.

A few more useless modifications of the word:

Fuckstickistan - where all the fuckstick’s come from
Fuckstickery - engaging (wantonly) in fuckstick behavior
Fuckstickler - a detail obsessed fuckstick
Two-handed fuckstick - for really big jobs
Fuckstickum - the fuckstick that sticks to the wall (or any clean surface - try it now!)
HappyFunFuckstick - do not taunt HappyFunFuckstick

“Says the criminal law student.

I know guys like you, I meet ‘em all the time.  Important tip: cynicism and an affected world-weary air?  Doesn’t make up for being boring.”

I practice in commerical litigation, construction litigation, and Appellate litigation.  So, not really .  .  .

“Hey Alanis, that’s ACTUALLY ironic.’

Um, no.

Oh we can agree that Prince gets laid.  We don’t agree that the women who like to fuck him are attracted by the same things as the women who fuck, well, me, for instance.

What is attractive is not necessarily related to wholly negative attributes, but may be accompanied by them, as with jerks.

And what you get out of this is that women are attracted to confidence like flies to honey.  Not that people are different, including women, and desire different things.  No, they all just are delusional about wanting someone that respects them.  Dude, if all women really wanted assholes, even as a function of wanting confidence, you’d be set for life, and i’d be a virgin.  This is, to put it kindly, not the case.

I practice in commerical litigation, construction litigation, and Appellate litigation.  So, not really

Mmm, indeed.  You must be very important and respected!  Gosh.  I sure am intimidated!  Except not really.  Jack Thompson was a lawyer.

What firm, so I can know whom to avoid, or at least endeavor to go up against in court?

I practice in commerical litigation, construction litigation,

...and GETTING THE ‘TANG.

“Hey Alanis, that’s ACTUALLY ironic.’

Um, no.

His appellate briefs are very, very short.

Forget hipster fuckstick, I’m going with pepito’s “Guardian of Vaginia.”

Food for thought for the Nice Guys®: Maybe the problem isn’t that you’re “nice,” but that you’re just boring. Maybe you’re the ones with the persecution complex who chase unattainable or emotionally unstable women because you have a desperate need for drama and emo angst in your otherwise boring life.

There are just so many ways to flip this ridiculous script.

Dude, if you honestly believe that “if an attractive woman tells you that she just wants a nice guy who understands her, you shouldn’t give her words much credence,” then your binary understanding of human motivation and behavior is quaint, since you think you know what’s going on in the minds of all attractive women, as though such are a monolith.

Dumbfuck.

“And what you get out of this is that women are attracted to confidence like flies to honey.  Not that people are different, including women, and desire different things.  No, they all just are delusional about wanting someone that respects them.  Dude, if all women really wanted assholes, even as a function of wanting confidence, you’d be set for life, and i’d be a virgin.  This is, to put it kindly, not the case.”

Did I ever say “confidence and no more?”  I don’t think that I did.  But how do you suppose a lack of confidence works out?  Like, for instance, try blustering in the non-internet world with the “Clit Commander” attitude you feign here, and then go do your usual “I like hackey sack” routine - compare - and report back to us. 

“Mmm, indeed.  You must be very important and respected!  Gosh.  I sure am intimidated!  Except not really.”

What is really funny is while you are typing this, and as I’m amused by your 2L huffing and puffing, I’m imagining - with glee - how difficult it will be for you to find a job in the next year or so.

Whoa, doooood, perhaps you should change your handle to “Propaganda Delivered”.

“Dude, if you honestly believe that “if an attractive woman tells you that she just wants a nice guy who understands her, you shouldn’t give her words much credence,” then your binary understanding of human motivation and behavior is quaint, since you think you know what’s going on in the minds of all attractive women, as though such are a monolith.

Dumbfuck.”

It could be that, or it could be that she is regurgitating the first half of every Romantic Comedy she’s ever seen, bowing to societal expectations.  Could be that.

Related:

http://nymag.com/news/features/artifact/51814/

I haven’t laughed this hard in a long time.  My favorite:

“[I am] short, stark, and mansome.

You should contact me if you are a skinny woman. If your words are a meaningful progression of concepts rather than a series of vocalizations induced by your spinal cord for the purpose of complementing my tone of voice. If you’ve seen the meatbot, the walking automaton, the pod-people, the dense, glazy-eyed substrate through which living organisms such as myself must escape to reach air and sunlight. If you’ve realized that if speech is to be regarded as a cognitive function, technically they aren’t speaking, and you don’t have to listen.”

Do you have any other gears but condescending and obtuse?

You seem to have an obsession with hipsters.  It’d be cute if it wasn’t ragingly insane.

But no, people desire different things.  Some girls, amazingly enough, like shy dudes.  Some girls even like hipsters, although i’m not quite sure why.

As is clear from your posts though, the one thing most of them don’t seem to want is a self-important, desperately insecure pontificating asshole.  Go figure.

As you’re stroking yourself over my incipient job woes, please look up “Patent Attorney.”

Amanda, I just re-read the title of this post and I realized—you’re psychic, aren’t you? Though I think maybe it shouldn’t have been plural.

The sad thing is I bet he really is a lawyer.

I weep for my profession.

blucas, HAHAHA! Those are wonderful. I think my favourite is the guy who wants someone I can feel like I’ve won, rather than lowered myself to.
The Scots word “boak” is apposite here.

Yay, it’s time for the weekly Pandagon thread heaping scorn on nice men for thinking that women have scorn for nice men!

“As you’re stroking yourself over my incipient job woes, please look up “Patent Attorney.””

You have no fucking clue how attorneys get paid, do you?

That - they don’t teach in Law School.

Class (which I have completely missed, but fortunately Prop is right about Corporations being very very easy) is about over, so i’m gone.  Thank you all for a very enjoyable time.  I would particularly like to thank raspberry, for the condom comment.  That was brilliant.

I am sure others are quite capable of filling in for me, and possibly probing deeper into poor Prop’s tortured psyche.  Perhaps a hipster killed his mother.  And then his girlfriend dumped him for that hipster.  The world may never know.  G’night!

@ Ellen

Late to the party, but listening to your situation, there’s a really easy way to solve the question that will also serve as good advice in all your relationships.

Ask him directly to talk about his jealousy issues, explain your feelings and why he has nothing to feel jealous about and why he feels like he needs to be jealous of these other people. Tell him how his passive-aggression hurts you and ask him to stop.

If the prospect of doing this frightens you because “he’ll react poorly” or he avoids any honest conversation or is offended that you’re bringing it up or he is dismissive of your feelings or he repeats the same thing or he makes a vague promise to be better rather than engage in honest communication. if he does any single one of these acts, then he is someone who is, or tends towards emotionally abusive behavior and you are better off without him before he amplifies any self-esteem issues you might have.

This may seem harsh, unfair, but I assure you it isn’t. A relationship can be hard and feelings that people aren’t proud of can surface out of a lot of deep feelings, but it’s not a one-way street. It’s not a woman’s job to “correct” herself for her boyfriend or do the heavy-lifting to “make it work”. Nor should either of them feel they have to be silenced about their feelings “for the good of the relationship”. If you can’t feel like you can have an honest and GENUINE relationship talk that plumbs the depths of his issues and why he feels threatened, then it is not an EQUAL relationship and an unequal relationship always ends poorly.

It may feel like being cruel and he may try and use emotional blackmail to make you give in, but it is important to be firm. Either you can feel free to be honest with the one person you are supposed to feel most comfortable with, or you are being stymied by an incongruous possibly abusive personality. So give him that choice, coming clean, really facing his issues and really focusing on them rather than continuing to be passive-aggressive or he can get used to his hand for company again.

And frankly, that’s a good rule of thumb for all relationships, because it’s like consent for sex. You cannot enjoy or meaningfully say yes if you don’t feel like you can say no. In the same way, you need to feel free to say no or to speak your piece in a relationship. Anything less is a coercion on your behavior and will effect even pleasant parts of the relationship. It is why such relationships are known as emotionally abusive.

Good luck.

Also, to Propaganda, I think you miss the very important point that many are making. You’re main flaw and what leaves echoes of Nice Guy TM in your language is that while you’ve made piece with sex and sexual interactions, you still retain the idea of the opposite sex as an other with different alien characteristics and furthermore try to make false equivalences to this supposed alien species. This is made most apparent with your dismissive statement about feminist orthodoxy.

To you, obviously such a phrase must conjure something negative. But considering the closest thing to a feminist consensus much less orthodoxy is “the radical notion that women are people”, means that it’s unlikely you meant that. As such, it’s quite likely that the notion is more tied to a continued notion of us vs them in the men vs women battles and that feminist orthodoxy is tied to radical side-takers in the equal battle of the sexes.

The viewpoint of there being a battle of the sexes, sides to take, undermines the core reality that women and men are people. Maybe it is because I was born asexual that things are a bit easier for me, but it’s always been obvious to me that men and women weren’t fundamentally different, that the phenotypic behaviors have more to do with cultural pressures than genuine innate differences. And furthermore, friendships, relationships, these things are wonderful because even that thin layer of cultural expectation can be ripped away and should be in all healthy interactions.

We comment about the deepness of friendships not because you don’t supposedly have them, but because it seems odd that you have them like I or other commenters have them, because you do not appreciate them.

Many of us have talked into the night with friends and loved ones, driven hours out of our way to help with a crisis, held the hair of a puking friend, or tried desperately to convince them not to continue a self-destructive cycle of behaviors. These are common things with friends. Those are what make them so.

But getting back to the war of the sexes, you still seem to see it as alien species battling, unable to comprehend each other, but a healthy relationship is not only sex and independence, it is also a friendship. Because a friendship is the intimacy of honesty, comraderie, and the treatment of each other as people, important people. And who wants to be dating, emotionally bound to a person who doesn’t view them as a person, but rather than an alien.

Your wiseguy remarks reveal another thing you may not have realized. A healthy relationship is the goal, what people deserve. Not everyone is in one and for many women, the social expectations that love is a shit sandwich that’s all your job can get them more trapped in abusive relationships than their male counterparts. What can also trap many straight women and gay men in abusive realtionships is the simple fact that more men are culturally trained to be scum. A combination of privilege and institutionalized sexism ensure it is so and because emotionally abusive relationships and Nice Guy TM relationships are sold as love by societal messages of love, many women will be unable to spot warning signs and many men will feel justified in their behavior.

For instance, you, despite supposedly avoiding Nice Guy TM behavior yourself, still use their language, still view women as an other, still make dismissive statements about feminism, still seem baffled about the fact that women are able to date someone wrong for them and view it as a personal slight, dismiss the impact of your own friendships, and are unable to grasp or face that fact or understand what anyone is saying when they say that they see that.

You should step out of your cultural headspace, the obligations you feel are necessary to be manly and consider as a simple thought experiment, what if the world isn’t man and woman, sex trade-offs and head games, but a bunch of ordinary human beings trying to figure themselves out in a world fixated on putting everyone in their proper place.

Seriously, consider it. You might find out something that’ll make it a lot easier to be happy.

PAT, don’t be obtuse. It’s loud-fart obvious we’re heaping scorn on men who pretend to be nice, not who are. Guys who are actually nice and NiceGuys(tm) are poles apart.

I’mma mess with Prop’s worldview here, for a second. Because I’m just that bored tonight.

Prop, I’m a woman. A more than reasonably attractive one, if I do say so myself. And you know what I like in a guy? Being awesome, in whatever flavor that may take. I’m not attracted to douches who treat me badly—other than perhaps looking at Colin Farrel and thinking ‘you know, if I lived in a world where this was possible, I would make time with that for one night’—but neither am I attracted to Nice Guys.

You know why? Because if I want to sleep with a guy, I’ll sleep with him. I’ve got birth control and nothing stopping me if I feel so inclined. What I don’t want is a guy who assumes that because he bought me dinner/complimented my shoes/offered a shoulder to cry on/let me crash on his couch, I should be so fucking grateful I’ll just have to offer sex.

That is *friendship*, not an exchange of goods. I’ve gotten on my bike and rode for three miles at 2AM to be there for a friend. I’ve had friends listen to me cry for hours about something that made me hurt. And while I may occasionally have sex with my friends, I will not have sex with someone who uses false friendship to try and eke out payment from me.

Again, an obtuse comment in lieu of an actual response.  At least I’m convinced you’re really an attorney.

Here, i’ll try:

Maybe you should do some research before saying that.

Hey P.A.T., who’s the nice guy getting scorned here? The one who said “I’m a dick, and I don’t really try to be nice for any particular reason.  So I’ve got Nice Guyism licked from the start”? That one?

P.A.T.—have you actually read this thread?

Speaking as a frequent lurker, occasional poster, Gavel, I’d just like to say thanks for some nice discussion. As a fully discredited plenipotentiary of the Lurkers’ Association, come back anytime!

Sweet Merciful Crap, Blucas! That there’s comedy gold…

Even more threatening than Hipster Fucksticks are Fuckster Hipsticks.  Or, even worse, Hipfuck Sticksters.

I love it when a Nice Guy®  shows up.  Usually the guy ends up disclosing that he is an astronaut/poet/dog whisperer/Formula One champion who has been hardened by the Pain of the Evil Pussies.  He treats the bitches like they want and deserve to be treated.  And they love it. 

It is like these guys are describing the lead male character in the latest Nora Roberts or Danielle Steele novel.  All that is missing is for some vulnerable, wide-eyed virgin to come along and show him how to love again.

@Gavel: Yes dude, thanks!  You made this discussion very amusing!  Check back later, I bet it keeps going. 

@Prop: “Nice Guyism is a curable condition, not an immutable characteristic.”  I’m glad to see you have faith in your treatment.  It is those who, like you, keep a positive outlook, who recover the fastest!

Lisa- Hey, now! I kind of like Nora Roberts. Admittedly, she’s had some clunkers for ‘heroes’—one of the books on my nightstand can attest to this only too well—but she’s a cool lady who (usually) manages to do well-drawn, non-douchey male leads. Also, she’s a wicked smart woman, so I gotta stick up for her.

@Lisa
I know!  It’s such a treat.
@Blucas
Holy Shit!  That is some major funny.  A dating site for Ayn Rand fans?  That sounds more like the premise for an SNL sketch than anything that happens in real life.  Sweet internets…

Yes PAT, we hate men who are genuinely kind people that do not place strings and conditions and expectations on emotional intimacy. We hate them, because only by having constant sex with the most vile of men are we able to ensure that they “forget” to wear condoms enough to ensure we have an endless supplies of fetuses to abort. We also hate puppies and rainbows.

Or maybe your idea of nice differs from the idea that nice is a pretty low baseline all things considered. I am the most kind boyfriend my gf has had. I could have met that standard while punching her in the mouth once a month. Nice is expected. Nice is an obvious point, one that is obvious to anyone who has had a genuine friendship. It is the basic human respect in recognizing another as a human being. If nice seems big to you, then you’ve never been nice.

Well, of course.  Why would a man want to spend time with a woman for any other reason than sex?

That’s what it comes down to, doesn’t it?  It’s not just the noxious level of entitlement (one thing the Onion piece gets exactly right is that the demands of the Beautiful Women’s Union are very mild—wear clothes that fit, be capable of a conversation—and the guy won’t give in), it’s the underlying assumption that there’s no reason to talk to a woman except to get sex.  That if, in fact, you find yourself talking to a woman and you don’t get sex in return, that means the woman tricked you and is out to get you.  That you should be able to come back later and demand sex to make up for the time you wasted talking to something without a penis.

If you haven’t seen the new Mike Leigh movie, “Happy-Go-Lucky,” I recommend it.  I don’t want to give too much away, but there’s a relationship that seems to be building up to the standard “guy with no redeeming qualities wins a woman just by wanting her so damn much, plus it’s cute when he stalks her” movie resolution, and then at the end it whiplashes into a stunning, ugly dissection of Nice Guy-ism and all the self-hatred underlying it.  Between this and “Vera Drake,” Leigh may be one of the most feminist directors working today.

This is the best thread ever.

Propaganda:

In really long threads like this, sometimes I find it’s helpful to go through what you have said in order to figure out why no one seems to like you.  Helpfully, I can boil down the main reasons for the antagonism towards you.

In this thread you have: referred to “Tang” unironically; claimed indifference attracts women (which women?); claimed the inverse of “Nice Guyism” is a women who has a Nice Guy as a friend (as opposed to a women just being a “Nice Gal” which happens); claimed that friendship doesn’t include long talks, emotional intimacy and favors without it being “dishonest” (or at least, mixed sex friendships do not); and when was contradicted, responded with “everyone’s wrong” is a self-avowed “dick”(so, misanthropist), claimed that women dump guys for being Nice Guys (like that’s a bad thing?), acted like playing football was against being a “nice guy” and that women are inter-changable, tried to insult someone by saying they liked hipster girls, doesn’t like to make compromises in a relationship, claimed there was a feminist orthodoxy, conflates “nice guy” with “Nice Guy”, and didn’t think that women who like criminals were disturbed, but rather indicitive of most (all?) women, called a long-time poster ugly, accused fat people of being fat because they eat too much fried chicken, accused another long-time commenter (whom I believe is already in a relationship) a dork in real-life, and expressed glee that a law student will have a difficult time getting a job.

Yep, you’re a peach. 

I’m not sure about “Nice Guyism” but you seem to have “asshole with no social skills” down pat.

Sarah:  I like her too.  I guess I should have said Harold Robbins or whoever that fool woman is who wrote “Princess Daisy”.  Their books all have the fantasy douchebag that the NiceGuys try to portray themselves as.  It is hilarious.

I love it when a Nice Guy® shows up.

I love that they invariably show up within five minutes of Amanda posting something like this.  Is there a Douche-Signal that shines in the sky for just such occasions?

This, you find, is far fetched?  The same with playing 1AA football?  You’re quite easily impressed.

It’s not so much that I’m “impressed”, but that it’s very convenient the way that a lot of our trolls tend to claim to have special expertise into the topic at hand, usually due to a flashy job or some sort of high-status social standing.  In a thread about the liberal media, all trolls know for a FACT that all reporters are leftists because they are news editors, and everyone who’s ever worked in “their newsroom” (actual quote from an actual thread!) has been a raving commie.  In a thread about deadbeat dads, the trolls are always divorce lawyers who have seen judges take everything from men and give it to women time and time again.

It’s more your not one but TWO fascinating coincidences that I find improbable, not so much that someone who played college football could also be an attorney, or whatever.  I would guess that most people who read and/or post here at Pandagon have fairly ordinary jobs, many/most which probably don’t directly have anything to do with the topic at hand in any given post.  But the trolls?  Oh, the trolls ALWAYS have special expertise on the matter at hand!  Trolls are never paper pushers, CPA’s, schoolteachers, salespeople, or programmers.  Trolls are ALWAYS attorneys, reporters, and members of other fields that tend to be firsthand witness to politics.  Funny, no?

Gotta love that blucas!.  “I have a carefully worded, painfully pretentious, desperately full-of-myself, overly long trestee on what kind of intellect I’m looking for in a desperate bid to seem intimidatingly intelligent. First things first, though: no fatties.”

@BStu
That way when no sufficiently attractive young women are interested in them, they could always blame their superior intelligence for putting off the girls.  Pfft.  Those dumb bimbos only want dumb douchebags.

“P.A.T.—have you actually read this thread? “

No, actually.  After I hit “blaspheme” I realized I should probably have made that clear.  But I still, still don’t get what all this “Nice Guy” stuff is about.  Take that movie from The Onion.  That guy reminds me a lot of me (except much better-looking).  He’s shy, doesn’t get how to make women like him (his parents probably divorced at a young age) he doesn’t dress badly, but doesn’t dress well either, he isn’t ugly, but isn’t handsome etc.  He can’t get a girl to talk to him, so he can’t get experience at talking to a girl, so he can’t get a girl to talk to him, and so on.  Because of that, Amanda seems to think he needs to be taken down a peg.  I don’t get it. 

If someone wants to give me the Cliff’s Notes version, that’d be fine.  But I’m fighting a cold and don’t feel like reading 250 posts right now.

@Notorious
You don’t sound like a Nice Guy®.  Search for past posts by Amanda with the NICE GUY® tag, you’ll see what this is about.  Also, this thread is fun, read it.

PAT-

Cliff Notes: A Nice Guy TM is one who expects that nicety is a price you pay for certain expected behaviors. One who expects compensation for kindness or friendship and becomes hostile when that unspoken contract is broken. A nice guy or a nice human being is one who understands that being nice is a baseline, an expected behavior for anyone in a friendship or relationship, because such interactions can only work if the people in them see each other as human and thus deserving of basic human respect. A nice person understands that niceness, unconditional interaction and taking people as they are rather than what you want or expect them to be is the lowest possible acceptable standard and will go beyond that, not because they expect to be rewarded or recognized, but because they are not content with just doing the minimum.

A Nice Guy TM will do the minimum and expect payment in turn and full recognition that he is “nice” unlike all the “bad boys” and not understand that by creating this dynamic that he is committing the cardinal sin of the so-called bad boys, that of assuming universal female traits, inability to interact with a woman as a human being, passive-aggressive manipulation, and expectation of favors with or without consent while also being considered better and more deserving because they are more passive-aggressive than they imagine “bad boys” are.

And that’s the basic Cliff Notes version.

Odd, isn’t it, that there seems no room in our *illustrious attorney’s* mindview as expressed thus far for women who date women to have very close straight male friends with whom they have 3-hour-long cafe chat sessions…..

Garsh, what *do* those straight men get out of such interactions?

And the womyn - aren’t we just evul tricksters? We’re lying, I guess, leading those poor men on.

Meh.

So you don’t want to read the thread, you just want people to do the work for you? Niiiiiiiiice.

as opposed to a women just being a “Nice Gal” which happens

Full disclosure -

I kind of pulled this recently.

You see, I find it pretty easy to fuck the guys I want to fuck.  You put in the face time, you giggle, bat your eyes, and brush their upper arm at just the right times.  You get the two of you into a situation where alcohol is likely to be consumed, ideally alone together (or alone among strangers).  Flirtation + Sexual Tension + Alcohol—> Fucking.  Duh. 

But it didn’t work!  I did my little mating dance, played by all the rules, but NO FUCKING!  WTF?! 

Except that rather than deciding that something is wrong with the guy in question, or generalizing that All Men clearly are collectively mentally diseased (or maybe just stupid), I decided, ah, well, that was a slightly embarrassing miscommunication, and a lot of effort wasted.  And then I moved on.  The dude and I are even still friends (“Just Friends”, if you will), and I’m honestly glad about that (and not just because I hope he comes around on the whole ‘wanting to fuck me’ thing).

@teac

What about us asexuals? I have 3-hour chats with both men and women with no guarantee of sex for anyone. I’m like a giant bisexual cocktease. I apparently lead on everyone.

Bad Cerberus! No biscuit!

@Prop:
Bwaaaahahahahaaaaa

:( Awww. But I like biscuits.

My favorite Nice Guy (tm) post was (as I recall) at Bitch Ph.D., where the idea that women are attracted to asshole men/men who treat them like dirt—which is, at heart, the signal lament of all Nice Guys—was turned inside out.  It’s not that women inexplicably are attracted to asshole men (so, Nice Guy, become an asshole and improve your chances!).  It’s that (many) women are attracted to _hot_ men, and in pursuit of that hotness, might tolerate a higher level of assholish behavior.  Nobody professes to find it mysterious when men are “superficial.”  Somehow when women do it, it justifies all manner of male angst and pathology.

Women as sexual beings making their own determinations about what they want in a partner.  Quelle surprise!

“Just friends” don’t go to the caffe and talk for hours upon hours three times a week.

Really easy solution. Ask her out on a date. If she says yes, yer golden. If she says no, then you evaluate whether you want to keep going to the cafe, and have an adult conversation with her about how you feel.

“You see, I find it pretty easy to fuck the guys I want to fuck.  “

Heh heh, it doesn’t take a heck of a lot of work to get the average man into bed )

“Really easy solution.”

Easier solution… Don’t agree to go out to a cafe to chat for three hours with someone you don’t consider a friend.
But I don’t think Prop would get the point of that solution.

(Actually, that Bitch PhD post/comment thread I’m remembering may have been more about Bad Boys… hopefully the point still stands.)

Hmm . . . I don’t know.

Buy me a coffee?

Heh heh, it doesn’t take a heck of a lot of work to get the average man into bed

I don’t think Opop puts up with “average.”  ;P

“So you don’t want to read the thread, you just want people to do the work for you? Niiiiiiiiice. “

Where did I say that?

One thing I find fascinating about the NGs® is how, like the Republicans, they Just. Can’t. KeeeEEEeep. The Crazy…INsiiide.

I mean, they start as clueless, yet sorta seemingly reasonable, people at first, but within 1500 ASCII characters reveal themselves for the tools they are.  Shorter: they got no game.

WUWT?  Can’t they face it a BIT longer?

dammit:  FAKE it a bit longer.

sheesh

“It’s not that women inexplicably are attracted to asshole men.  It’s that (many) women are attracted to _hot_ men, and in pursuit of that hotness, might tolerate a higher level of assholish behavior. “

Whew, that’s a relief.

Seriously dude, how old are you? I know everybody’s at a different stage in their lives, but if you’re over 25 and this much of a jerk, you’ve got a LOT of work to do.

Been there, done that.  It doesn’t get better.  Dump the motherfucker already.  Be firm, even if it feels a little heartless.

Not necessarily.  I’ve seen guys who were over-anxious due to previous betrayal by women get inappropriately jealous with new partners, and their relationships did work out eventually, if rocky for a while.

@banister

I’m guessing Prop’s a 25 year old 3L at a lower tier law school (otherwise, he would have proudly asserted his credentials).

@ Eric, RoM
What’s ASCII?  And WUWT?
Thx!

Nevermind, I remembered google.

“I’ve seen guys who were over-anxious due to previous betrayal by women get inappropriately jealous with new partners, and their relationships did work out eventually, if rocky for a while.”

True… insecurity is curable, assholishness isn’t.

“You can’t MAKE someone like you. Even if there was something you could do to force people to like you, wouldn’t that be morally wrong? “

I suppose I should have written “make her want to talk to him instead of the 50 other men in the room”.  Because you’re right, you can’t “make someone like you”, and I know it.

oh man, amazing thread.  i’m sad i came late but you guys make me laugh so hard.

i’m going to work “hipster fucktsick” into my vernacular.
gavel, i’m also siding with prop actually being a member of our noble profession, albeit one who probably isn’t going to make his billables this month.  lawyer jokes came from somewhere, right?

P.A.T., another “Nice Guy” problem The Onion piece skewers beautifully is the idea that this guys pursues attractive women incessantly. He’s not going to lower his standards one bit, even though he keeps striking out miserably. Yet he fully expects women to lower their standards to make getting laid easier for him. Peter Griffin is his personal hero.

“It’s not that women inexplicably are attracted to asshole men.  It’s that (many) women are attracted to _hot_ men, and in pursuit of that hotness, might tolerate a higher level of assholish behavior.”

I resemble that remark. :0

As a member of the noble profession, I can affirm that Prop resembles a hefty segment of our population. I just can’t get away from assholishness in my professional or personal life. :(

Seems our noble profession isn’t so noble.

Opoponax, may I edit your 8:16 pm for form and add it to this?
http://seeker6079.blogspot.com/2008/02/how-to-identify-troll-beginners-guide.html

hardened by the Pain of the Evil Pussies

Hardened?  By Evil Pussies?  How can a delightful hobby “harden” anyone?

Ummmm….

Whoops…

Sorry…..

I swear to the Disco Ball that I typed that before I “heard” it. 

But I left it in anyways.  In my defence I didn’t type it first.

Sure, seeker, even though your link is broken.

I note that the Google Ad is now for “Belarussian Women: For serious relationship only…”

What’s Belarussian for “Nice Guy®”?  (I’d accept Russian as a fallback answer.)

Thanks, Opop.  It may be because I had it open in draft.  Lemme check….

Yeah, it’s back now that I’ve posted.

What’s Belarussian for “Nice Guy®”?

“Ed.”

As in: this guy Ed I worked with several years ago who was such a Nice Guy(tm) he tried to buy a wife.

Thanks for the laugh, teac.  It’s been a looooooooong day.

My pleasure!

(((hugs))) - just ‘cuz.

Happy sigh:  aaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

And I didn’t even feel that I was entitled to that.

another “Nice Guy” problem The Onion piece skewers beautifully is the idea that this guys pursues attractive women incessantly. He’s not going to lower his standards one bit, even though he keeps striking out miserably.

I don’t know, the women in that video are good-looking and together but I wouldn’t say they are movie star-level unattainable.  And it’s not like the man in question knows what to say but just isn’t cutting it, rather he has no idea what to say or do.  Plus growing up he probably heard all sorts of stupid advice like “just be yourself!” and “women don’t care about looks!”

Seriously dude, how old are you? I know everybody’s at a different stage in their lives, but if you’re over 25 and this much of a jerk, you’ve got a LOT of work to do.

To whom (who?) are you referring?

Sure you were! Hugs are things people need, not something they have to earn.

(Sorry - sounds really dorky. Oh well. If I can’t be a +40 dork there’s no hope for me.)

There are things you can do which make you more pleasant to be around for everyone. Keeping yourself and your clothes clean is way more important than any fashion choices you make. You can make an effort to understand other people’s point of view on an issue, which normally means listening to them.

Where in this country is that enough to get dates?

I do not understand the Nice Guys. Apparently a woman can’t have any male friends, because that constitutes leading men on. Am I supposed to cut off contact with every man I know, or do I just have to preface every conversation with a disclaimer that I just enjoy talking to them and it shouldn’t be taken as romantic interest?

“Hey, Lauren, how are you?”
“I DO NOT WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU. I’m good, how are you?”

I take offense at the insinuation that World of Warcraft players are all loser douchebags!  If that 40-something dude living in his parents’ basement is a good tank, this young, beautiful woman would be more than happy to raid with him.

What do you think about feral druids?

P.A.T., did you catch the line about how he’d have no problem with the slightly-overweight-with-frizzy-hair or the insecure-women-who-wear-Uggs-over-their-jeans unions?

Where in this country is that enough to get dates?

Nowhere. There’s nothing you can do that’s going to guarantee you a date. Sorry. But being a pleasant, interesting person who doesn’t smell bad will probably make you happier with yourself and others happier with you, which often leads to dates. But there are no guarantees and never will be. You’ll just have to learn to live with the injustice that every other human being faces every day.

The sad thing is I bet he really is a lawyer.
I weep for my profession.

I don’t have the heart to tell Gavel Down about Glenn Reynolds…

And frankly, that’s a good rule of thumb for all relationships, because it’s like consent for sex. You cannot enjoy or meaningfully say yes if you don’t feel like you can say no. In the same way, you need to feel free to say no or to speak your piece in a relationship. Anything less is a coercion on your behavior and will effect even pleasant parts of the relationship. It is why such relationships are known as emotionally abusive.

Hear, hear.

You’ll just have to learn to live with the injustice that every other human being faces every day.

I don’t think that “every other human being” is as much of a failure with the opposite gender as I am.  If they were, there’d be no human beings left on Earth, for one thing.

“The middle aged married teacher explained to us - boys and girls together - that sex is something that married people do after a certain number of hoops had been jumped through.”

Hmmm . . . Sounds a little like this:
http://xkcd.com/414/

I don’t think that “every other human being” is as much of a failure with the opposite gender as I am.  If they were, there’d be no human beings left on Earth, for one thing.

That might just be a fine line in self deprecation there Notorious P.A.T., but it’s awfully close to whining.  Sad as it may be,  nobody on this planet is owed a sexual relationship with another human being just because they want one - another person has to reciprocate the sexual attraction.  That doesn’t always happen, and there simply is no way to MAKE it happen.

There are however several almost certain guarantees of behaviour that will PREVENT it ever happening:  not bathing,  not showing genuine interest in people by listening and making appropriate conversation, and whining about how it’s all so unfair.  This is not a comprehensive list, by the way.

Changing one’s behaviour to that of a genuinely engaged sociable person with adequate personal hygiene is no guarantee of finding a sex partner, but not doing it is a pretty good guarantee that you won’t.

But can this thread top boobies? Only 56 comments to go.

Where in this country is that enough to get dates?

That alone? Nowhere. It’s an ingredient, though. It means when someone who actually likes you comes along, they won’t be put off by stench.

I don’t have anything cogent to add to this great thread.  I do have one remark to make, though : it’s good to see tigtog posting here again!

You and me both, Cerberus *asexual high five*

I do not understand the Nice Guys. Apparently a woman can’t have any male friends, because that constitutes leading men on. Am I supposed to cut off contact with every man I know,

Please contact a representative from the Gay Men’s Union. We can accommodate you!

PAT, you’ve been here quite a bit, you didn’t bother to read the thread, but you wanted somebody to sum it up for you so you wouldn’t have to get off your intellectual ass. It’s what you did.

So when I try to represent asexuals in another thread, I get “maybe they haven’t found the right girl”/“they’re just confused, awful puritans” comments.. And this guy gets high fives?  WTF?

Please contact a representative from the Gay Men’s Union. We can accommodate you!

Those hard-working gay men are such an inspiration to me. There are so much fewer of them than of straight women, and yet they continue to accommodate us as our only male friends. And all to make life easier for their beleaguered straight brethren who have suffered so much and for so long at the hands of frigid bitches!

And all to make life easier for their beleaguered straight brethren who have suffered so much and for so long at the hands of frigid bitches!

*gasp* Tell me you’re not just using your gay friends as icebreakers and disposable escorts!

“Hey, Lauren, how are you?”
“I DO NOT WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU. I’m good, how are you?”

Lauren, you need to watch seasons 1 and 2 of “Coupling”, the BRITISH version. Trust me on this.

There’s a scene along the following lines:

Patrick: “Look, all I’m asking is if you want to go to the races?  I have the tickets…”
Sally: “Patrick, let’s get one thing clear.  I am never ever ever going to have sex with you.  Ever.  Still want to go to the races?”
Patrick: “No point now, really.”
Sally: “Fine.  See you.”

The show is bloody hilarious for those two series - I think it would appeal to your sense of humour.

The sad thing is I bet he really is a lawyer.
I weep for my profession.
I don’t have the heart to tell Gavel Down about Glenn Reynolds…

::falls out of chair laughing::

Hey, Lauren, how are you?”
“I DO NOT WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU. I’m good, how are you?”

Well, it worked pretty well for me in college.  After I went through the stage where I had sex with them.  Gah.  Also, Coupling is awesome.

The person who told Ellen it doesn’t get better could be wrong.  It can often get better, but only if you both work at it, maybe for years.  It’s nearly guaranteed to get better with really young guys who need more exposure to an environment different than the one they grew up in. But you can’t be responsible for him outgrowing his insecurity.  Even if you both have a lot to outgrow, doing it together doesn’t give great odds for the relationship.

Also, Coupling is awesome.

Indeed.  Just three more quotes relevant to recent discussions…

—-
  Sally: Patrick, what do you call people you go out with but don’t try to sleep with?
  Patrick: Men?
—-
  Jeff: I need breasts with brains. I don’t mean individual brains, obviously [...] I mean, not a brain each. You know, I like intelligent women, but you’ve got to draw the line somewhere [...] I think breast brains would be over-egging the woman pudding.

[... later, same episode…]

  Patrick: WOBBLE WARS! The title for the new porn film about the battling breast brains.

[... later, same episode…]

  Patrick: A woman with two brains…
  Steve: Three brains, Patrick!
  Patrick: ...(thinks) Oh, yeah. (touches his head) I forgot about this one!
—-
    Jane: I once went on holiday and pretended to be twins. It was amazing fun. I invented this mad, glamorous sister and went around really annoying everybody. And d’you know, I could get away with anything when I was my crazy twin Jane.
  Sally: But you’re Jane.
  Jane: Kinda stuck. It’s a long story.

Three to four years ago, the “Nice Guy™” discussion percolated through the familiar blogs, and people had some good fun talking about it, and then we went back to politics or whatever. I find it somewhat odd that Amanda seems to have an interest in promoting a whole Nice Guy™ thread of posts that seem to be almost as common as Pam Spaulding’s focus on LGBT issues. There are certain topics that people outgrow, and “Nice Guys™” (and I don’t even like using that term) is one of them. This is primarily an issue for college students and 20-somethings who are thrown into very fluid social milleus and are desperate for some kind of consistent human interaction which puts people at risk of certain juvenile unhealthy relationships. I’m more genuinely concerned about relationships in which partners cheat, people are physically abusive, or people abandon their children. The foibles of young people who are still trying to figure out awkward relationships isn’t really something I feel the need to be concerned about on a regular basis. Plenty of people have been in messed up pseudo-relationships where people did stupid things, continued relationships with people they didn’t actually respect, or harbored resentments or heartbreaks at past mistakes borne of immaturity. They generally grew up and moved on rather than talked about them incessantly as some kind of important cultural touchstone.

And the humor of the Onion video comes not from the fact that The Onion is “taking on” Nice Guys™, but rather from the fact that in watching the video, we get to laugh at the poor fictional loser Mike Greeman being mocked. And that, my friends, is genuinely funny.

@ Tyro

Based on the comments of nearly every man claiming to have “outgrown” Nice Guyism, wherein they defend the central tenets of Nice Guyism and whine about women being men and the also strong correlation of Nice Guy TM traits and language in MRAs, I suspect Nice Guy TM is probably more prevalent with older couples than younger ones. In the early stages, both people may be more likely to assume that foibles are the result of misunderstandings and learning the ropes. It is when people start solidifying their assumptions as they “mature” that they seem to really get into the patterns of bitterness that fuel Nice Guyism and MRAs.

In short: A grown-up Nice Guy TM is a MRA.

For curiosity’s sake I keep checking in on the Pandagon discussions of this ‘topic’, and each time it’s as vain, obsessive, and mean-spirited as it was on any previous occasion.

Eric, huh?  I’m only high fiving because it’s rare enough to come across another asexual outside of specifically asexual forums and because I snarkily agree that we’re the worst of the worst in this context, because both sexes want to prong us and we’re not into it.  Unless I’m missing something I have no idea why you’re taking offense to that.  I’m well used to the “you just haven’t met the right person” bullshit too, but that’s not what this is about.

Headmaster Humphrey: What’s wrong with a kiss, boy? Hmm? Why not start her off with a nice kiss? You don’t have to go leaping straight for the clitoris like a bull at a gate. Give her a kiss, boy.

Yeah, sucks to go through that, Eric.

Here’s some high fives your way. The more the merrier if we’re going to stage an asexual coup.

Goatees. Horrible.  Primarily a symbol of assholish Reaginism draped in faux hipness, sort of like loving Rush Limbaugh but listening to Blues Traveler or Hootie and the Blowfish while you get high. Worse still, guys with goatees (nice or not) just can’t keep their hands off of them, constantly stroking stroking stroking…

ick

Breeders will be first against the wall! >_<

Ummm…. Eric….?

We’re already against the wall.  It’s called a “knee trembler”.

Both of our joking aside I just don’t get the push to make asexuals feel that they Have To Have It.  It’s no more fair or normal than telling people who like sex that They Must Not Have It, or gays that They Must Have It With The Opposite Gender.  The only caveats that I would add is that asexuals should date asexuals only.  There’s a tremendous closeting pressure on them, akin to gays marrying to be “normal”.  And it’s bound to end in grief and anger in the end.  Let people be what they are, and stay the hell out of their literal or metaphorical pants unless invited.  I doubt that many people here would disagree.

Eric/seeker,

If complete strangers can’t pester you about your nonexistent sex life, what will they do all day?

“... barring the possibility of AN INFLUX OF MONEY Mike Greenman has little chance with the attractive girls union…”

This is dead on satire.  A real understanding of the psyche of the modern American female.

I do kind of see the point P.A.T. may have been trying to make above. A lot of guys (probably a lot of people in general, though I’m not sure how this varies by gender) who want to find a partner, and are unable to, get the well-meaning advice of “wash up, dress nice, be a good and interesting person, and don’t have unreasonable standards,” and find that it makes absolutely no difference, because you still have to be attractive to someone, and even at their most dapper, charming and open, they aren’t.  The thing is, for the folks this happens to, it doesn’t feel like “the injustice that every other human being faces every day,” because lots of those other human beings *do* manage to partner up.

I think there should be a Bald Corollary to the Goatee rule. If you’re bald, you should get to keep your goatee. If not, you’ll end up looking like a German Techno douchebag. And nobody wants that.

Added that a Nice Guys(TM) thread is probably not the place to make that kind of complaint, even when the topic turns to “just shower and don’t be a douchebag and I’m sure *someone* will like you.”  Better to get your own blog; people will still accuse you of “whining” but it won’t derail any other discussion.

I would agree to the goatees-for-baldies exception. As a compensation tactic, it beats the combover any day.

MonkeyShines, it’s not because of your lack of money that women don’t like you.

it makes absolutely no difference, because you still have to be attractive to someone, and even at their most dapper, charming and open, they aren’t.

Well, going out with that attitude pretty much kills any charm or openness they think they’re displaying. If you’re radiating “I’m not attractive and no one will like me” all the time, people can sense it and will quickly move away from you. Pretty much everyone is attractive to someone, but almost no one is attracted to self-loathing and negativity.

Well, he did admit he didn’t actually read the post and has no idea what your beef with Nice Guys is. He just sees a post like this and thinks you’re making fun of him for not getting laid. That might have something to do with it.

Junk Science, who says they don’t?

Did most of you actually watch the video?  The Onion isn’t “taking on” Nice Guys (tm) in the Pandagonian sense.  The fictional nice guy in the video isn’t frustrated because he spends time with women and doesn’t get laid in return.  He’s a dork with no game who is frustrated because he can’t get the time of day from these women, on account of the fact that he’s a dork with no game.  He can’t even get to the point where he’s trying to swap “niceness” for sex.

If anything, the video is taking on “attractive girls” for being superficial, rejecting this guy instantly on account of his cargo pants and lack of money.

because you still have to be attractive to someone, and even at their most dapper, charming and open, they aren’t.

Then they’re probably not taking the “be clean, have an interesting personality, listen to people, , etc” advice enough to heart.

There is someone out there for everyone.  I know this can be hard to fathom if you live in a suburban landscape designed to minimize even visual contact with strangers, and your only experience of the world of other people is TV.  But I live in a city and take public transit and I am here to tell you that it really does take all kinds.  Fat people get laid.  Old people get laid.  Pimply people get laid.  I see people all the time who I personally think are rather ugly, and yet they’re wearing a wedding ring, so somebody must find them attractive.  I see people who weigh 400 lbs, who are carting around a passel of kids, which means someone must have had sex with them in the last decade or so.

Many people in my life who I would consider less attractive than myself are married and have children.  Even though I, on the other hand, am still very, very single and even sometimes get shot down.

If it was really impossible to successfully find someone to date, let alone have sex with, marry/partner up with, reproduce with, etc, unless you are a supermodel or a billionaire or something, there would be an entire segment of the population relegated to a monk-like existence due to a lack of being particularly photogenic.  That this ugly underclass does not exist implies that there is no such barrier, and that ultimately 99% of people who bathe regularly and aren’t complete douchebags ultimately find someone to settle down with.

I think there should be a Bald Corollary to the Goatee rule. If you’re bald, you should get to keep your goatee

I’ve also heard that bald men are the only men allowed to wear fur coats. There seems to be some kind of “conservation of hair” principle involved in these rules.

I get many emails begging me to post funny Nice Guys® stuff.  And the “theories” posited are far from limited to men in their teens and 20s. The dehumanizing aspects of Nice Guy® philosophy (that women have one brain, that the only useful about a woman is her vagina, that women are deceitful users by nature—-and not just that some are, but most to all) are believed by all MRAs, most of whom are middle-aged.

All fair points. But do well-into-adulthood MRAs get into the passive-aggressive act-like-a-friend-but-wish-I-weren’t pseudo-relationships in the way that younger Nice Guys™ do?

“If anything, the video is taking on “attractive girls” for being superficial, rejecting this guy instantly on account of his cargo pants and lack of money.”

This is the impression I got too.  I really don’t understand all the nuances of the nice guy thing though.  The video seemed to me to be putting down women more than men.

(Loads weapons.  Fingers goatee.)

Come and get it.

The video seemed to me to be putting down women more than men.

I saw a good bit of both and enjoyed it.  It’s thrust was not to the Nice Guy syndrome but it was starting off point for the topic and Amanda made an effective lure out of it, since a couple of Nice Guys came in and made it an interesting thread.  I was more interested in Ellen’s side track and how much people’s bad experiences were projected onto hers.

I was also surprised to hear that being slightly overweight and having frizzy hair means I’m not attractive.

I’ve never seen you, Elizabeth, so I can’t comment on you specifically, but speaking generally I can say that from my perspective, that is most certainly *not* what it means.

If you are undersexed and a woman, you usually believe that it’s YOUR fault and the ONLY solution is to see what’s considered attractive out there and be it.

It’s such an internalized thing for guys, too. I’ve had several guy friends insist to me that if “a woman” (any woman) wants to get laid, all she has to do is walk up to a guy in a bar and ask. Hands down, he’ll agree. (If he’s gay, other guys in the vicinity will overhear and offer to serve as a replacement, apparently.)

They can NOT square this with the equally strong belief that THEY themselves would not sleep with any random woman who walked up to THEM, at least in part because they might be committed already, or they might not be attracted to the woman, or the fact that the behavior itself would be considered insane in the area I live, and therefore the woman might not be SAFE to sleep with.

Add onto that the explanations I profer against this tactic on my part (“He might be dangerous.” “He might have an STD.” Etc.) which they heartedly agree with… and then reset and say, “I can’t understand why women say they can’t get laid… all they have to do is walk up and ask…” Ugh.

Re: Nice Guy Age Limit, I don’t see it. My “maybe Nice Guy, or maybe just a nice guy” is 38 and counting. My last ex was also 38 - he wasn’t a Nice Guy, but he did think that the majority of women preferred ‘jerks’ to ‘sensitive guys’ like him. Oh, shit, now that I type that, it sounds like he WAS a Nice Guy. I still need a list of defining characteristics, because he DID / DOES have a lot of girl friends that he doesn’t ersent for not sleeping with him. So that one doesn’t apply, but the persecution complex does… I’m confused.

If anything, the video is taking on “attractive girls” for being superficial, rejecting this guy instantly on account of his cargo pants and lack of money.

Um, no. The whole deal about the AGU is it’s in his head. It’s a fantasy he’s constructed to explain why he isn’t getting any action.

Pepito, I sort of see that now that you’ve mentioned it.  I guess it was a little too subtle for me.

Based on the comments of nearly every man claiming to have “outgrown” Nice Guyism, wherein they defend the central tenets of Nice Guyism and whine about women being men and the also strong correlation of Nice Guy TM traits and language in MRAs, I suspect Nice Guy TM is probably more prevalent with older couples than younger ones. In the early stages, both people may be more likely to assume that foibles are the result of misunderstandings and learning the ropes. It is when people start solidifying their assumptions as they “mature” that they seem to really get into the patterns of bitterness that fuel Nice Guyism and MRAs.

I’m not sure if I buy that argument, the whole nice guy (tm) thing is basically the way boys are told dating is supposed to work in High School, so I’d say almost any male in our society has been through at least some of the weird emotions associated with it* (self-pity and blaming women for not liking them).  I think most men could claim to have outgrown nice guyism, but some might claim to who haven’t actually.

*Of course not all men take this far enough to put it into practice and use those emotions to try to manipulate women, but I think that there is an associated attitude that’s very much fostered in teenagers (see: most teen movies, pop music).

If anything, the video is taking on “attractive girls” for being superficial, rejecting this guy instantly on account of his cargo pants and lack of money.

Hardly. Remember the part where the AGU has charts of what the dude needs to do in order to step up his game? That’s the message.

Regarding goatees, unless your woman is also hairy, it’s just not possible to eat pussy correctly: because short facial hair fucking hurts.

Amen to that, Bani

Ok I realize I’m pretty late to this thread (and probably to this entire discussion about Nice Guys™ that has been going on at this site forever), but here goes. I get the feeling that this whole phenomenon is actually just a matter of sexist lashing out against the frustration that a certain class of insecure males go through. I can’t really identify myself with the Pandagon Nice Guy archetype, but I can certainly relate to that part of the equation if I look at my own misspent youth. Take one part insecure and one part needy. Get blown off a couple of times at haphazard attempts to court the other sex. Internalize this to a point where you get so afraid of being rejected that, even if you have no problem talking to members of the other sex, you’ll see actually telling them you have romantic intentions as the most terrifying thing to do. So you let things linger, hope you can get them to sniff things out so you don’t have to actually out right say it.

I can see how, if you add one part sexism to this mix (influenced by friends or reading the wrong literature), this can progress into genuine Nice Guy™ territory. The sexism part is what makes the douchebag, but the other parts are really quite human and certainly not exclusive to men.

Another point that I’ve seen mentioned here is the whole deal about “women can never be just friends with men”. In general, this is obviously bollocks, but for a certain subset of single people it can be quite hard to spend 10 hours a week with someone of the opposite sex that falls within their attraction boundaries, have elated discussions and emotional bonding and not skip right into romanticism, or even jump right to “we’re both single, we obviously like eachother, why aren’t we fucking?”.

I got over my Nice Guy problem by realizing that I really don’t have anything anyone wants and that any woman who would actually have me has such disturbingly low standards that I should stay away.

Face it, Nice Guys: if you’re a Nice Guy, you’re the problem and you deserve every bit of bitterness and desperation you bring upon yourself. The problem is not with the women.

Some therapy for Brian X’s table, stat.

Mad Child, bani—I’ve been told that using hair conditioner on said goatee/beard helps make it “thigh-friendly”

Right on Brian.

I used to be one of those Nice Guys TM, but eventually I realized the problem was me.

Sure seeker6079, although asexuals can date sexuals just fine if everyone’s up front about what they’re expecting from the relationship.  It’s honestly/knowing yourself that gets you into trouble.  I’m not a dater myself but plenty of asexuals are with sexuals: it’s something of a tiny pool otherwise, since not many people are identifying as such (as yet).

*honesty

Oh, Hekie, I don’t disagree at all on the issue of honesty.  An indispensible.

Watching my divorce practice and listening to colleagues has convinced me that there are (a) a ton more asexuals out there than anybody figures, (b) a lot of them get married to people who are sexual, and (c) those sexuals don’t know about the asexuality of their partner, and (d) much nastiness and bitterness results.  As noted, it is very analagous, I believe, to closeted gays and lesbians some time ago.

chingona: Hekie’s 2:23 post is now one more than the boobie joke thread.

Anything less direct than “you creep me out, and you need to stop” can be rationalized away all too easily or could go straight over their head.

To be completely frank, I don’t consider that to be my job.  I gave my phone number to a guy last week, while shortly regretting it.  When he called, I told him that I didn’t want to go out with him and followed that up with “I’ll see you around.”  He apparently didn’t get the message and proceeded to call me three times after that.  Sorry, but it’s not my responsibility to deal with the discomfort and the inevitable backlash from being rude.  (I don’t particularly like being called a fat, ugly bitch by rejected suitors, for example.)  If a guy can’t or won’t accept a polite brush off, that’s his problem, not mine, and I’ll simply stop picking up the phone.

Well, well, now I know what it is like to be the object of the ridicule from mall fauna indigenous to Hot Topic.

As one poster asked, what is with the obsession with Nice Guys?  If you haven’t noticed, it provided an excellent opportunity for many of the women posters to make the backdoor assertion that they are attractive and beleaguered by Nice Guys who are just simply hopelessly smitten with them.  The Nice Guy character provides a foil for them in their collective fantasy world, in which they get the attention that physically attractive women do in the non-internet world.  If you sensed a good bit of ambient resentment towards alleged Nice Guys for devoting their attention to attractive women in lieu of the women here who ridicule them, well then you’re an astute observer.  Add to this the furious prosecution of interlopers by the resident alleged “men,” who must provide that you are a Nice Guy, in order to prove that they are not. 

If you haven’t noticed, it is also the perfect opportunity for Amanda to appoint herself Chancellor of the Kingdom’s Pussy, and to promulgate rules for the touching of the sacred pudenda applicable to women who aren’t Amanda.  The bonus is being assailed as the antifeminist strawman (‘all women share a mind’), in spite of the rather obvious conclusion that men simply learn to do what may have a greater degree of applied success.  Consider me self-taught. Fortune favors the bold.  Remember when I said that doing “X” “works” on all women all of the time?  Me neither .  .  .

I also find it particularly amusing that you’re led to believe that all of these people are fully self-actualized, hyper-evolved future-lings, half human, half Apple iHuman, who communicate thoughts and emotions effortlessly by telepathy and who generate a warm, organic, ultrawhite light through their curiously semi-transparent bodies.  For those who maintain blogs, click on through and take a peek at how beautiful these iHumans actually appear in the flesh.

Of course friends never turn into lovers over long conversations leading to an emotional connection.  And of course, none of those Nice Guy friends that spend those long hours talking could have truly fallen for a woman and wanted an actual romantic relationship – they’re just after teh sex and deserve to be shamed by a bunch of clipper-haired crypto puritan harpies for their trouble. 

Get that, Nice Guys?  You’re not permitted the indulgence of insecurity or shyness or the sum of a hundred negative experiences.  The resident feminists want you to be a man and ask them out Old Fashioned like, like John Wayne and Maureen O’Hara at the end of The Quiet Man.

Propaganda, I’ve been going back-and-forth between seeing your point of view and sensing you as a troll; you seem to oscilate between making some good points and dragging in stuff that just isn’t going to fly on a feminist blog and almost seems engineered to push buttons.

Between the insults in your latest rant, you make one good point:

Of course friends never turn into lovers over long conversations leading to an emotional connection.  And of course, none of those Nice Guy friends that spend those long hours talking could have truly fallen for a woman and wanted an actual romantic relationship – they’re just after teh sex and deserve to be shamed by a bunch of clipper-haired crypto puritan harpies for their trouble.

I’ve definitely seen plenty of socially seclusive men where this was basically what was going on. I don’t get the impression, however, that this is what is being lambasted when Nice Guy™ threads surface on this blog. Rather it is about the way some men deal with this, shifting the blame for their own social awkwardness to the people who reject them for it.

As a counterpoint, though, one could compare this to the struggle of fat women. In both situations, there is the tendency to use generalization of the shallowness of the other sex to deal with the influence common rejection has on a person’s self esteem. The question you could be asking is, is it perhaps not just as invalid to diss on socially handicapped men and projecting sexism on their inability to clean up their act and behave like normal people as it is to diss on obese women and their inability to get their stuff together and eat like normal people? It’s all about being willing (or able) to change yourself in order to be more attractive to the people that attract you.

As a counter-counterpoint, a valid criticism of Nice Guys from the feminist viewpoint is not necessarily about how unattractive they are or that they deserve to be lonely, but rather with their taking on the stance that this is all about how all women secretly long for a douchebag to abuse them and OMG they’re just too stupid to realize they should be dating the nerd in the corner who can only talk about his nerd hobbies. That’s not what is happening, it is a stupid insulting meme and it should die. Men living under that delusion are not helping themselves at all.

@ Propaganda Due

That was the most unfocused rant I’ve read in awhile.

I really wish you’d stop insisting that women are passive-agressive abusers who want (and therefore deserve) men who will treat them badly.

“I really wish you’d stop insisting that women are passive-agressive abusers who want (and therefore deserve) men who will treat them badly.”

I really wish you’d quit pretending that this is what I said.

I really wish you’d quit pretending that this is what I said.

You’re not literally saying that, but I can’t help reading that between the lines and even getting the impression that you even increased your line spacing a bit. There’s quite a bit of space between “low self-esteem makes people unattractive” (which is the core of the issue) and “women just want to be dominated” (overgeneralized). The tone of your posts is that of people who are in the latter camp.

Propaganda,
You wrote;

“....And of course, none of those Nice Guy friends that spend those long hours talking could have truly fallen for a woman and wanted an actual romantic relationship – they’re just after teh sex and deserve to be shamed by a bunch of clipper-haired crypto puritan harpies for their trouble. 
Get that, Nice Guys?  You’re not permitted the indulgence of insecurity or shyness or the sum of a hundred negative experiences….”

Just so we understand terms Nice Guys™ are not nice.  Lots or guys are insecure, but the term Nice Guys™ refers to the guys for whom that insecurity leads them to view women as a monolithic inscrutable other.  Nice Guys™ tend not to be looking for just sex, that, they feel is the province of the hated Asshole™.  No, the Nice Guys™ are looking to be in a meaningful romantic relationship, but because they don’t understand how, or are unable to do so, they become bitter.  “Why won’t this woman that I have been secretly longing for fall in love with me when I have been there for her as a friend for so long?” becomes, “Why do all women reject all nice guys like me?” becomes, “All women are bitches that use guys.”  And thus the transition form a pitiable guy that is engaging in the bad behavior of hiding his true feelings for the object of his affections to a Nice Guy™ is complete.

The thing about the hair styles, and the dig at “resident feminists” makes me wonder, do you believe in the political, social, and economic equality of women (the definition of a feminist being one who does)?

Anyone seeking out more of a portrait of the Nice Guy syndrome, seek out “Soft Rocked By Me” by Jonathan Coulton. The song is a veritable “Nice Guy Anthem”. It was part of his “Thing a Week” Podcast which should still be available. The song is tongue-in-cheek, of course, but I think it does a very nice job illustrating the “I’m sensitive and caring so I should get laid” mentality.

Hardly. Remember the part where the AGU has charts of what the dude needs to do in order to step up his game? That’s the message

“He has zero chance with the AGU barring some influx of money…”

That’s the other message.  He’s a slob and a dork, but were he a slob and a dork with money the AGU would change its tune.  Neither party gets off free of a little mockery in this video.

And of course, none of those Nice Guy friends that spend those long hours talking could have truly fallen for a woman and wanted an actual romantic relationship – they’re just after teh sex and deserve to be shamed by a bunch of clipper-haired crypto puritan harpies for their trouble.

No no no no no. The problem isn’t about wanting sex or a relationship. The problem is assuming you’re owed said sex or intimacy without actually saying how you feel. Assholes assume a right to sex, but they’re upfront about it. So they move through women quickly, until they find one who will give them what they’re looking for. Nice Guys never say anything, and get stuck pining, which turns them into resentful jerks. Like you.

And what’s with hating on hipsters? I’m a geek, but I have friends who are hipsters, goths, and otherwise alt. Weird comes in all kinds of tasty flavors.

For the record, I’m a dude, dude, and I think you have some serious issues. How do I fit into your world view?

Pim the difference I see between (generally) an overweight woman and a Nice Guy is that the heavy girl doesn’t think the whole world should bend around them to accommodate their lower than average attraction rate. Or they just accept that they’re not a super model, and find a guy who’s into their body type.  Nice Guys almost never say “Gee, maybe the problem is with me?” because when they do, they stop lambasting and start listening, and get over their issues.

Like in the last thread, various guys voiced similar feelings to Propaganda Due. The smart ones read the responses and got the point: stop being such a jerk, and you will eventually start meeting women who like you. The stupid ones, like Propaganda Due, just keep circling around and spewing hate. Understand how extremely charitable people are being here, trying to help you. But you just don’t fucking listen.

Pim the difference I see between (generally) an overweight woman and a Nice Guy is that the heavy girl doesn’t think the whole world should bend around them to accommodate their lower than average attraction rate.

They can still become bitter, but they don’t have the sexist mental ‘out’ that Nice Guys made for themselves, agreeed.

“Understand how extremely charitable people are being here, trying to help you. But you just don’t fucking listen.”

Dude, for real - I take really good care of myself, I have nice clothes and shoes, and mein car vust made in Stuttgart.  I don’t need your brand of “help.”  Really.

Decent fellas?
Fine chaps?

Or really, what’s the problem with using “nice guy” and having “Nice Guy(TM)” mean what we are using it to mean?

Congratulations and a round of applause for Propaganda Due, without whose tireless efforts this feat of commentdom would not be possible.

*nod*

Fair enough, Tim.  It is also one of those things that works better in the printed word than the spoken.

For any goatee-d men out there not feeling the love from this thread, I don’t have a problem with guys with goatees. You can eat me out anytime.

Agreed, seeker, on all points.  I do have a lot of sympathy though, because it is really really hard to figure out your sexuality when you’re given just the 3 options: liking boys, liking girls and liking both.  I’ve been very sexually aware from very early on and it still took me cycling through hetero and gay to finally figure out that I was asexual (and homosensual) at around 25 years old.  Just as people would never have considered gay as an option in the past, it is really hard to cut through the societal bullshit and figure out what it is you want without the heterocentric, sexual universe exerting its will on you.

Congratulations and a round of applause for Propaganda Due, without whose tireless efforts this feat of commentdom would not be possible.

Never underestimate the power of a man audacious enough to use a phrase like “getting the ‘tang” and then whine about being called a douchebag.

OMG!  Piñata Due is back for more!
*Scrolls up and reads the thread*

Dude, for real - I take really good care of myself, I have nice clothes and shoes, and mein car vust made in Stuttgart.  I don’t need your brand of “help.” Really.

Too bad you still haven’t worked out the massive personality flaws.  This is why you went from Nice Guy™ to just plain Asshole.  You still haven’t realized that YOU are the problem (or, I should really say your lack of personality, charm, and your seething hatred of all beings with a vagina). Maybe if you actually took the time to talk to a woman in a cafe for three hours—without thinking about how you will angle a pity fuck out of her but actually paying attention to what she says—you might actually have a clue about women and the fact that INDIVIDUAL WOMEN ARE ATTRACTED TO A VARIETY OF PEOPLE FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS.

Tyro, here is your evidence that the issues of Nice Guydom™ are not specific to a particular age, even if young men seem to most easily fall victim to it.

“I take really good care of myself, I have nice clothes and shoes, and mein car vust made in Stuttgart.  I don’t need your brand of “help.” Really.”

I think Paris Hilton said this more eloquently in her latest memoir “Who Needs Class When You Have $$!”

Hey, PAT, I know what your problem is.

BOOMKIN FTW.

Tyro, seriously.  Nice Guys hardly ever outgrow it.  I’m 33 and still dealing with them.  I would say look at Prop Due, but he’s gone over the cliff and ended up in Asshattia.

“Too bad you still haven’t worked out the massive personality flaws.  This is why you went from Nice Guy™ to just plain Asshole.”

A) You don’t know me, and can’t possibly assess my “personality flaws.” and

B) I was never a “Nice Guy.”  Ever.  I got burned by girls once or twice in college.  That’s all.

“INDIVIDUAL WOMEN ARE ATTRACTED TO A VARIETY OF PEOPLE FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS.”

Perhaps.  I’m not stating that I can “bed” every woman in the world with a secret “system.”  What I am saying is that your Nice Guys have the power and ability, within themselves, to have more success with meeting and attracting women.  ‘tis all.

“Tyro, here is your evidence that the issues of Nice Guydom™ are not specific to a particular age”

I’m not yet thirty.  I’m not sure how that fits into your Nice Guy BINGO game.

Of course friends never turn into lovers over long conversations leading to an emotional connection.

Funny.  You start out by claiming that women who maintain friendships with men who are attracted to them are horrible users and abusers.  You get properly lambasted for that bullshit, so you switch over to:  Hey, sometimes men fall in love with their female friends.  Nice try, asshole.  Keep backtracking and trying to cover your ass.  The fact remains that you’re a resentful douchebag.

If you haven’t noticed, it provided an excellent opportunity for many of the women posters to make the backdoor assertion that they are attractive and beleaguered by Nice Guys who are just simply hopelessly smitten with them.

Yeah, follow up others’ criticism of you by saying, “You’re just a bunch of ugly bitches anyways.”  Very convincing.

“Funny.  You start out by claiming that women who maintain friendships with men who are attracted to them are horrible users and abusers.  You get properly lambasted for that bullshit, so you switch over to:  Hey, sometimes men fall in love with their female friends.  Nice try, asshole.  Keep backtracking and trying to cover your ass.  The fact remains that you’re a resentful douchebag.”

Try holding three thoughts in your tiny little skull at once - 1) friends cen turn into lovers; and 2) some men hope friends turn into lovers, and work that angle towards a relationship; and 3) a lot of women know when men are attracted to them, and some can be users.  Not difficult, really.

“Yeah, follow up others’ criticism of you by saying, “You’re just a bunch of ugly bitches anyways.” Very convincing.”

You’d have a point if there wasn’t an epic post every three days about Nice Guys in which the female commutariat unloads on a bunch of guys who generally simply want emotional and physical companionship.

PD:  Your personality flaws are written all over your posts.  I doubt that an in-person meeting would alter that impression.

I notice that you still aren’t willing to concede that different women want different things—in life, in relationships, in sex, etc.  So much easier to deal with women as some unknowable monolith than to actually get to know one or several as . . . wait for it . . . people.

One Night Only!

Hipster Fuckstick
Clipper-Haired Crypto
Puritan Harpies

Friday night at Club Propaganda Due, where all bitter drinks are half price!

Sweet jeebus. This is still going on?

I’m looking at the Google ad for Belarussian mail-order brides. I’d recommend this solution for our friend Prop, but who could subject those poor women to that?

Maybe, seeker. Certainly wish I could afford it.

Anyway, has anyone given any thought to why we’re giving the time of day to someone who named himself after a Masonic splinter group that were thrown out for being too fascist and proceeded to thoroughly fuck up Italian politics for a decade?

the Nice Guy is upset because he has followed the rules but isn’t being awarded a trophy.

The Nice Guy (TM) just doesn’t get it. He would like to have a girlfriend but does not understand how to reach that goal. He is like my puppy humping another puppy’s head—a combination of “that’ll never work,” with “what is he thinking?”. The rules he’s following he’s basically made up in his head. There needs to be a charm school or something to clue these people in, preferably at the onset of puberty.

Why would a man want to spend time with a woman for any other reason than sex? No one would believe that women have anything to offer.  Women cannot be intelligent, funny, interesting, or fun to spend time around.  They have vaginas.

Women are delightful. They are indeed intelligent, funny, interesting, and fun to spend time with. And they have vaginas! But these qualities can be lost on the horny clueless guy. Similarly it would be hard for a hungry guy to appreciate a restaurant’s decor until he’d had something to eat.

You don’t know me, and can’t possibly assess my “personality flaws.”

You act like it takes 18 months of deep Jungian analysis to find out who the assholes are. It took you all of 10 seconds to start swinging around your amazing career in football and lawyering, just like a status-obsessed twenty-something ex-fratboy douchebag. Nobody else does that. And I’m not even going to mention the embarassing fuckin’ references to “blondes” and “getting the ‘tang”. So it’s not exactly going out on a limb to conclude that you’re a giant tool.

I blame Seth Rogan.

I’m admittedly a little slow on the uptake, but here’s where PD had me:

“INDIVIDUAL WOMEN ARE ATTRACTED TO A VARIETY OF PEOPLE FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS.”

Perhaps.

Perhaps women are not monolithic. Perhaps they are not all the same. If your “feminist orthodoxy” insists that it is so, I will concede that it is possible, though I have seen no evidence of it, never having actually paid attention to any individual woman and her individual personality. Perhaps.

Hey, this thread totally kicked the boobie thread’s ass in post count. Of course, that thread is now just John O talking to himself, but maybe he can take us all on alone.

I think for Prop’s sake, y’all should post on Nice Guys (TM) every day for the next two weeks.

Notorious:

Take that movie from The Onion. He’s shy, doesn’t get how to make women like him (his parents probably divorced at a young age) he doesn’t dress badly, but doesn’t dress well either, he isn’t ugly, but isn’t handsome etc.  He can’t get a girl to talk to him, so he can’t get experience at talking to a girl, so he can’t get a girl to talk to him, and so on.  Because of that, Amanda seems to think he needs to be taken down a peg.  I don’t get it.

The guy in the video thinks he’s entitled to get super-hot girls talking to him and ignores other possibilities. How did you miss that part?

Of course it would be unfair to expect the guy to only talk to girls that he finds unattractive, but in the video “Attractive girls” seems to refer to a rather small subset. Have you tried approaching the Slightly Overweight Frizzy-haired Girls Union?

“But these qualities can be lost on the horny clueless guy. Similarly it would be hard for a hungry guy to appreciate a restaurant’s decor until he’d had something to eat.”

For any guy that was actually *that* horny, I’d advise him to get all his masturbating done *before* he goes out to meet anyone (equivalent of having a small snack before going to the restaurant?). Desperation of any stripe is a real turn off, especially if it’s to the point that everything but sex seems equivalent to “decor”.

Hmmm… we’re almost to 400 posts! Let’s keep this thread alive…

Personally, despite being a 26 year old male who hasn’t even had a First Kiss yet, I never fell into Nice Guy[tm] Syndrome (“girls only want assholes, I’m not an asshole, and that’s why I don’t have a girlfriend”). One reason for this is probably because, well, back in high school, the guys that did get the girls I that wanted were, invariably, people I liked and respected.

I have had other problems, though. I have a horrible tendency to come across as a creepy stalker. This is entirely my fault, and has gotten me in trouble several times.

I have taken myself out of the dating market completely. As far as I can tell, I’m just not meant to have a girlfriend. To be honest, at the moment, I can’t see why a girl would be interested in me at all. Physically, I’m nothing special; I’m short (5’4”) and not any better looking than anyone else. I’m also job-free by choice. I live with my parents, who support me financially. No income, no looks, no ambition, and no skill as a homemaker; obviously, anyone who would consider me a potential life partner must have some serious issues of their own, so I’m not even going to bother looking.

“No income, no looks, no ambition, and no skill as a homemaker; obviously, anyone who would consider me a potential life partner must have some serious issues of their own, so I’m not even going to bother looking.”

That’s kind of gloomy…what about hobbies, interests, passions, conversational style, personality quirks? There are a lot of things to be attracted to. Now obviously money, looks, ambition, and homemaker skills can help your numbers, but to say that without them it’s pointless to look for *anybody* seems a bit extreme.

I’m not saying you should try to go on dates if you aren’t comfortable doing so, just that “Nobody could possibly be attracted to me” is almost always false.

Well, I have some redeeming features - I do read this site, after all! - but unless I get my own life straightened out, looking for someone to share it with is kind of pointless; nobody wants to be a sugar momma to someone who just plays World of Warcraft and reads blogs all day. (I only got into WoW recently. I used to play Magic: The Gathering - and was pretty good at it - but, well, Magic just costs too much money!)

I could say I’m kind, caring, smart, funny, etc… but that doesn’t really matter when everyone else thinks they’re all those things even if they’re not, and I know that, deep down, I’m a selfish jerk who’s taking advantage of his parents’ generosity. I wouldn’t date me (or hire me, for that matter) so why should I ask anyone else to?

Doug, dude, are you depressed or something?  I mean, maybe you’re just genuinely uninterested in changing your situation, which is fine, but if you feel as if you can’t, maybe that’s worth looking into.

I’m about your age, and the only aspect of your self-description that I would personally find a turnoff, not knowing you, is the lack of a job (even a poorly paid job) or job prospects.  Or, in the alternative, homemaking skills, I suppose.  Realistically speaking, it’s hard to get by in life if you don’t do either of those things.

Talking about the advice for Nice Guys (TM) to lower their standards and try dating women they’d more realistically attain…. I understand the thinking behind it, but as one of those “lower standard” women, I don’t think these guys should be doing that without getting some therapy or something first. Wishful thinking, I know, but it just seems… less than ideal to me, and I think we should think twice before suggesting it so often on these threads. For one, some of these guys just assume that they deserve sex for condescending to lower their standards (and this is insulting to all concerned), and for another, women can tell when they’re being settled for.

Annejumps, I wholeheartedly agree, so much so that I had to jump into the thread at comment #1432897973 to add my voice to yours. This aspect of advice to the Nice Guys always bothers the hell out of me. Unattractive women don’t deserve to date misogynists either. And it reeks of expecting women to fix men’s psychological flaws/the healing power of pussy.
I’m not saying that there are not bitter, twisted, misogynists who relax and turn into decent human beings when they get into relationships with real women. So I accept that it might actually be good advice that makes the world a better place, in the long run. It’s just that for the sake of the women they might end up dating, I always feel it might be kinder to say “Actually, you know what you should do? Give up on women, and buy yourself a Real Doll.”

I resent all this World of Warcraft is a sign of a loser junk.

I am a court reporter, working in federal courts, and I have a level 72 balance Druid and a level 70 prot Paladin and I’m trying to level up my level 48 holy Priest.

I also go to the gym, go out with friends, and have a life. 

Lay off World of Warcraft.  I fucking love my game.

And Doug, I’m totally curious why you choose not to have a job, any job.  I mean, you don’t necessarily have to be totally independent, but I would think earning a few bucks for spending would make things easier for you.

annejumps, benja:

Some guys who run into this sort of stupid mental phase in their lives mature out of it, or where never such assholes but fall into a bit of a pit after an unpleasant relationship or three.  Most het guys go through at least one wimmin iz bitchez i sez! phase in their lives—whether they admit it or not— but it passes.  We jump around going “FUCKINGMOTHERFUCKERGODDAMNWHOREBAGFUCKITYSHITBAG!!!” (or words to that effect) when we catch our hands in car doors, too, but we calm down fairly quickly and laugh at our own stupidity or overreaction afterwards.  So to condemn everybody who was once stupid to RealDollWorld is perhaps a little harsh.

As for “attractive” v. “unattractive”, isn’t that a false dichotomy?  One of the jokes on Nice Guys®  is that they fixate on some idealized uber-looker-female, the ultimates as defined by the dumbass metaculture around them.  The joke is that they aren’t going for women that can run the “looks” gamut but for this microniche of culture-defined-hottie unattainables who are sought after by pretty much every male.  In other words, some fragment of a percent of the population.  This is where the entitlement discussions come in, but they have been wholly canvassed already.

Not all Nice Guys® restrict themselves to that, of course.  Many are generally disfunctional with all women, whether they look like Annie Lennox or Morbo The Annihilator.  But that’s a social dysfunction.  And some guys who feel themselves bad with women (whether they are correct or not) don’t turn into Nice Guys®.  Take BradX as an example.

Doug S.:

I second killjoy’s comment on depression.  You have classic symptoms, friend, take it from somebody who has been there up close.  And if you don’t feel ready to face a doctor or therapist, run, don’t walk to read The Noonday Demon.  It might save your literal and metaphorical life.

http://www.amazon.com/Noonday-Demon-Atlas-Depression/dp/068485466X

I don’t think I buy the following propositions, which seem to be part of the Marcottian NiceGuy hypothesis:

1. No sexually frustrated young man is ever entitled to be a little bitter about it sometimes.
2. Young women can never be criticized for whom they choose to be with.

What would tell the self-described “nice” (I was one in College, more or less) is this:

1. Bitterness, reasonable or not, won’t get you laid. Shake it off fast.

2. This should be self-evident, but let’s be clear anyway: Women can make any sexual choices they want, regardless of what you think of those choices. The universe does not owe you sex. It may be the case that because of whom you choose to be, you will simply get less, and sometimes none. That’s just the way it goes.

Right, seeker, but one Nice Guy’s being inclusive and realistic is another Nice Guy’s settling, and the latter just need to get some help or something first.

I don’t know; I get what you’re saying, but the immediate “They should lower their standards” response just bugs me.

annej is 100% correct. No woman wants to be settled for, and that attitude—you lucky, lucky girl; what a treat’s in store for you: ME—radiates from the arrogant twit who has it. Guys should focus on women they’re realistically a match for.

But it’s actually true that looks are not the only thing that matter for attraction. I met a couple the other day where the guy was objectively better-looking than his female companion. But she was smart, funny, and utterly charming.

Desperation of any stripe is a real turn off

Yup. I didn’t mean this was a rational attitude. Think head-humping-puppy.

Hey, if one of this thread’s resident asexuals doesn’t mind teaching “Asexualism 101,” I have a question:

When/how did you come to conclusion that you were, in fact, asexual?  I understand how “you just haven’t met the right person yet” would be an insulting comment to hear—and certainly by 25, I’d imagine suddenly meeting that person is unlikely.  But how long do you give it before you decide that that’s the case?

I ask because I have a 15-year-old male friend who claims to be asexual (I’m 18).  I haven’t made an issue of it out of politeness, but I have trouble believing that this is the case.  I went through an extremely late puberty, and though I started dating at 14, I didn’t really have any sexuality until I was about 16.  (My girlfriend got *very* frustrated) 

How does one come to identify as an asexual?

Orion: Fifteen is very young (I’m nearly 40). At 15, I wasn’t altogether too clear on my sexuality or what to do with it other than fap several times a day and wonder why I got aroused by this or that.

I’d tell your friend to hold off on making any firm decisions about who he is, sexually or otherwise—it’s probably all subject to revision on a monthly basis still. In my experience, matters were a lot clearer at 18, but I still had a lot to discover.

Some people will likely tell you they knew themselves to have some precise and fixed sexual identity at age 6 or something. Maybe they did. But I’d still recommend resisting the notion that one knows anything sure about oneself at 15.

If you are undersexed and a woman, you usually believe that it’s YOUR fault and the ONLY solution is to see what’s considered attractive out there and be it.

I’m a man, and I feel that way a lot…it’s probably more common than you think.

“Guys should focus on women they’re realistically a match for.”

I know what you mean, but is this really good advice for anyone, male or female?  It seems to me the problem is more the bitterness and entitlement issues that come from rejection rather than being “realistic.”  There’s always a chance for personal connection, whether or not one or both or none of the people involved are attractive by mainstream standards.  I think instead of thinking “well, I look like X, I’ll only talk to people who look like me” should be replaced with simply looking at all the people you meet and deciding whether or not you feel a connection.

I don’t think this segregation by attractiveness levels is something we should hold up as an ideal, it’s just realistically how things turn out most often.

Yeah… I’m taking antidepressants, which helps.

One reason I don’t have a job is that, well, I don’t actually need the money right now. I have a substantial savings. I went to college on a scholarship, and the money that would have gone to tuition is sitting in bank CDs under my name.

Another reason is that, well, I’ve manage to convince myself that employment is a soul-sucking horror to be avoided at all costs. I’ve had jobs a couple of times before, and as a rule, I either couldn’t stand the job, or got fired so quickly the novelty hadn’t worn off yet. I have some other issues as well; I’m a horrible procrastinator, unable to do much of anything at all (except surf the Net, etc.) without someone telling me to do it. (Basically, I only graduated from college because my parents worked hard to make sure that I got my work done, to the point of literally driving me to class in the morning to make sure I went.) Even worse, as soon as someone orders me to do something, I start resenting the activity itself. If you paid me to play World of Warcraft, I’d probably start hating that, too! (I like WoW, but I’ve played offline video games that I like better. And it’s not Magic. There’s more than one reason it’s called “cardboard crack”; I’ve yet to find a better feeling than the one I get from winning at Magic tournaments, online or off.)

Not having to worry about what I’m going to do for money once my parents stop supporting me would solve a lot of my problems, but feeling like I’d rather die than work isn’t likely to get me there.

”There are worse things than being lonely.”

I have little to add except that I find it amusing that all the “pussy” references have lead the Google ads to involve veternarians and “new kittens 101” faqs.

Also amusing is the fact that it’s brought up an ad for a “huge selection of John Edwards items.”

I ask because I have a 15-year-old male friend who claims to be asexual (I’m 18).  I haven’t made an issue of it out of politeness, but I have trouble believing that this is the case.  I went through an extremely late puberty, and though I started dating at 14, I didn’t really have any sexuality until I was about 16.

If he said he were gay, would you have the same trouble believing him?

Sorry for the double post, I should’ve given it more thought, but also, what if he said he knew he was definitely straight?  And even if it’s only because he’s a “late bloomer”(god, I hate that term)then he’ll discover that for himself later won’t he?  If he says he is something, why would you doubt it?  Only he knows what he feels, and if how he feels changes at some point, what’s wrong with that?

Annejumps: “Talking about the advice for Nice Guys (TM) to lower their standards and try dating women they’d more realistically attain….”

I see your concern, and for a lot of guys I don’t think this is exactly the advice that needs to be given. I’d say: “make sure your standards are really your standards, and not your friends’” could help a lot of guys too.

When I was younger, I remember being attracted to many women and then being afraid to show that attraction because my friends would put them down and would mock me if I expressed that attraction. Now I don’t now how common this is, but I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of guys were worried about what they are “supposed” to be attracted to instead of just assessing their own feelings towards someone.

Doug:

I’m currently unemployed and living with my parents (picked a pretty bad economy to graduate into). I’ve also struggled with procrastination issues. One thing that has really helped me is getting the strong desire to move to Austin - because it gives me an immediate reason (and benefit) to finding a job there so I can live there. For my part the desire is because I visit Austin very often and love it, and because I’m dating someone who lives there.

But the desire can be anything. The point is, if you can cultivate a desire with an immediate payoff that requires a job (like moving, buying some luxury you couldn’t justify on your parent’s money, etc.) it can serve as a much stronger motivator than the general idea that you need a job at some undetermined point in the future.

@ Hector: Similarly it would be hard for a hungry guy to appreciate a restaurant’s decor until he’d had something to eat.

Right, because a woman’s primary function is providing men with sexual release, just like a restaurant’s primary function is providing customers with food.  The rest is just decor.

Talk therapy. My god, there is nothing so bloody useless as talk therapy. My parents have been dragging me to therapists my whole life, whenever I stopped doing exactly what they wanted me to do. It felt like a punishment for having different priorities than my parents did. They wanted me to grow up to be a good little corporate slave, always following the rules, doing what other people tell me to do, being “responsible”. I’d always just make the same vague pronouncements about how things seemed okay, and nothing was any different than the last time I was there. They never tell me anything I want to hear. I’m usually much more articulate and open when I’m using a keyboard than I am with my voice, anyway.

I have a psychiatrist. I don’t like him and feel that I have to watch what I say around him, but he keeps filling out the prescriptions and my mom likes him, so I don’t make that much of a fuss about it.

My life is divided into two types of activities: things I do because I feel like doing them (play video games, etc.), and things I do because other people make me do them (school, housework, etc.). I try to maximize the former and minimize the latter. If I don’t feel like doing something, I can’t make myself do it. Sometimes other people can, but it’s not pleasant for anyone. I don’t see how getting a job is going to increase my ability to do what I want in the short run, and I make a conscious effort to ignore the long-term consequences of my decisions, because dwelling on the future is the one thing that is absolutely guaranteed to put me into a bad mood.

Money hasn’t been a big motivating factor in my life. If I wanted to go for a year without spending one cent of my own money, I probably could do so fairly easily; I’ve got enough unplayed video games to last me a long, long time. Most things that I want which I wouldn’t ask my parents to pay for, I can easily buy them myself. Most of the other things I want can’t be bought with money in any meaningful sense. Those things that can be bought with money that I can’t get, I either consider silly pie-in-the-sky fantasies, or just not worth the hassle of getting and keeping a job over.

What’s really maddening is that, if I don’t have some work to avoid, things that I normally enjoy can become less appealing. When the alternative to playing a mediocre video game is doing some work, the video game suddenly becomes far more interesting.

Doug - Maybe what you need is a good verbal reaming by someone who didn’t enjoy what seems to be your rather high level of privilege.

It might get you off your self-pitying ass and into the world doing something interesting and possibly even productive. At least try grad school or something, anything, to challenge yourself and give life meaning.

I can’t give you that verbal reaming, because I grew up in privilege, as did most of my friends from college. But we didn’t sit at home and play video games. Some of us went to grad school, some of us experimented with survivalism/organic farming, others went into start-up software companies and the bare beginnings of web development, some people tried to write fiction, some traveled. None of us were particularly thrilled about adulthood or regular jobs. I’m not saying we were great, but we did try to go out and do things on our own, even those of us with trust funds, lots of savings, and the option of living in our parents large finished attics and basements.

Doug S, the choice isn’t between being a “corporate slave” and spending your life playing video games. It’s between living life and watching it pass you by. If you’re happy with your life the way it is, that’s fine, and as long as you have a willing bankroll you’re set. But it doesn’t sound like you are, because you mention wanting to have a girlfriend and thinking you’re not worthy of any woman’s attention, so it doesn’t sound like you like yourself very much. I suggest not deciding ahead of time that every possible option other than the ones you’ve already picked are going to suck and make you unhappy. Real life can in fact be something you want and not something you want to avoid.

Also, not every therapist is the same. In fact, you should give mine a call.

Ok, so just focusing on the short-term then: why don’t you start playing Magic again? You said winning tournaments is the most satisfaction you get and it’s more social than playing video games. Only downside you mentioned is cost, but if it does cost enough to be a burden, that would just become a new short-term goal for making money: being able to buy booster packs an the rare cards you need for a tournament winning deck.

Doug S:

Gunny Ermey’s 12’ PT Motivational Figure gets me moving when I’m feeling down:

http://www.rleeermey.com/motivationalfigure.php

In all seriousness, if you want to feel better, consistent exercise will give you the sustained energy you need to get something in your life going the right way.  When you have the energy, the motivation will take care of itself.  Get up early and start your day with it.  It will be hard at first for someone who hasn’t PT’d much, but you’ll come to love the sting of ice cold air filling your lungs first thing in the morning.  You’ll be wide awake at 7 a.m. and ready to get something done, which beats being sluggish and overtired at 10 a.m., spiking and crashing with caffeine.  In the warmer months, the sunlight on your skin will do a lot for you as well. 

Then, after you get some proper motivation, you might want to take some or all of your aforementioned savings and start a business or enter a trade of some kind.  Being your own boss can be quite fulfilling and generate sustained motivation.

Brandon, true. A lot of younger and/or immature/insecure men are more concerned with impressing their male friends regarding whom they’re dating than what they or the women they’re dating want. And yeah, a lot of them grow out of that. But it does complicate things.

Prop Due has good advice on the exercise.  Changing psychiatrists might help too if he’s not making an impact. 

As a middle age parent with twenty-something kids I can tell you that you are breaking your parents’ hearts.  In case you care about anything.

“you are breaking your parents’ hearts”

Additionally, you’re making them “corporate slaves” who must support you.  If they drove you to college classes, they smothered you, and probably never let you make significant achievements (and suffer failures) on your own which would have built a sense of self esteem and individuality in you.  Once you find that you can support yourself, you’ll want to do it, and want to achieve other things - your self esteem will build upon itself and you’ll wonder what you were doing all that time in the basement.

When I play in Magic tournaments, I usually play <a >online</a>. I get more meaningful social interaction through blogs than I do in a typical online tournament. And, to be honest, online tournaments are so much more convenient than offline ones; I don’t have to, say, take an hour-long trip into New York in order to play.

There’s another downside to Magic. I get too into the game, and both winning and losing have strong effects. When I’m doing well, it’s amazing, but when I go on a losing streak, it’s the opposite. Losing, especially when I expected to do well, hurts.

World of Warcraft is much, much safer.

Orion, what Eric said.  For me it took till I was around 25 to have a definition for what I always was - like I said, I cycled through assuming I was straight before thinking “aha! that’s what’s wrong, I’m actually gay!” before realising some years on that that didn’t fit either and it wasn’t till I came across asexuality as an orientation that I realised that finally I had something that described me and had always described me.  I slept with boys from the age of 13 and I’ve slept with girls so I’ve had an active sex life till the past few years but it turns out that the missing ingredient was that I was never sexually attracted to any of them.  I have a strong sex drive (not all asexuals do) so (TMI) masturbate with the same regularity as anyone else but my sex drive doesn’t drive towards either women or men, much like a gay man’s doesn’t drive towards women even if physically he could have sex with a woman and have it feel great.

My suggestion would be that you just accept what your friend’s telling you.  If I’d had the word “asexual” I would probably have identified myself as such from the time when boys and girls first started liking each other.  I’m interested in girls but it doesn’t matter how much I like one, she’s never going to rev my engine, even if I’m having sex with her and having it physically feel good.  I came out to a (gay) friend recently and he’s the only person to react with the “you just haven’t met the right person yet” and I got really angry at him and turned it back on him (saying maybe he hadn’t met the right girl) which got him to listen and actually hear me.  Asexuals are used to hearing that shit and it’s really annoying.  I would never close my mind to the possibility of my suddenly becoming sexually attracted to someone, but it’s no more likely than a gay man suddenly wanting pussy.

Oh also, FWIW, I did meet the right person and wasn’t sexually attracted to her.  That was actually what made me realise I was asexual.

Off topic:

Prop Due, thanks for the link to the Gunny Ermey’s 12’ PT Motivational Figure.  That is the funniest thing I’ve seen in awhile.  I see they’re on back order, so I may look in later.  I might get one as a college graduation present for my son.

“Prop Due, thanks for the link to the Gunny Ermey’s 12’ PT Motivational Figure.”

Gunny’s great - you’ve got to meet him - he ain’t acting.  I saw him visiting base and everyone goes wild for the Gunny.

Sorry about the mangled HTML.

But we didn’t sit at home and play video games. Some of us went to grad school, some of us experimented with survivalism/organic farming, others went into start-up software companies and the bare beginnings of web development, some people tried to write fiction, some traveled.

To be fair, a lot of us also did a lot of sitting at home playing video games, in addition to that other stuff.

Incidentally, my parents, contrary to all reason, love their jobs.
My father is a professor of electrical engineering who also works in industry as a circuit designer.
My mother is a doctor who works with children with developmental disabilities.

Incidentally, my parents, contrary to all reason, love their jobs.

It’s my observation that children of parents who work in academia tend to be messed up in the head at a rate greater than average, given their socioeconomic starting point. I’ve heard the theory floated that this is because things like college are “old hat” and something you grew up with, rather than something seen as an outlet that you escape through while forming your own adult identity. Normally, the logical path of rebellion for many people in this position is to become an artist.

@Doug,

Shit.  I can’t believe what I am saying, but I agree with Porp Due on this.  Exercising will help.  A book that helped me out of my procrastinating faze was “The Now Habit”.  Not 50 pages in, I overcame most of my procrastination hurdles.  I used to play a ton of video games too.  At crucial, fucked up moments where I should have been studying or doing school work.  All the while feeling super guilty, undeserving and then not seeing friends during weekend to finish work I procrastinated on. 
Go to amazon, get “The Now Habit”.

@ Doug,
Wow, you sound like you REALLY have a bad case of procrastination.  What this book did for me was amazing.  Got rid of the guilt first, and doesn’t give you any have to’s or tell you to just try harder.  I still don’t know how it helped.  But it did.  Better than any psychologist, psychiatrist, friend.
@ Tyro,
Hah!  My husband is a professor’s son, and yeah, we’re both artists.  It’ll be fun to tell him he is part of the stats.

That book seems pretty good.

Still, I’m reminded of a quote from management guru Peter Drucker:

“There is nothing so useless as doing efficiently that which should not be done at all.”

One of my problems isn’t so much that I put off things that need to be done, but that I’m stuck doing things that I don’t want to do at all. Before I get started on something, I have to believe, on an emotional level, that it really has to be done. For example, if I don’t particularly care how well I do in a class, I’m not going to put much effort into studying.

For example, one time in college, I skipped a midterm exam to play Final Fantasy X.

It was worth it. Oh, was it ever worth it. And I ended up with a B in the class! (The magic words to tell a professor are “psychiatrist” and “antidepressant”.)

Right, because a woman’s primary function is providing men with sexual release

Yes, to the Nice Guy (TM). That’s why the Nice Guy (TM) in actuality, is not very nice at all.

“A book that helped me out of my procrastinating faze was “The Now Habit”.  Not 50 pages in, I overcame most of my procrastination hurdles.”

I keep meaning to buy that book, but I never seem to get around to it.

@ MightyPonygirl, if you’re still reading…

Actually, I thought the point of “Teeth” was that ALL the guys get chomped, because they’re rapists, or sexually coercive, or sexually exploiting her.  The “hero” who doesn’t get chomped at first later DOES, because he’s using her as a status-symbol and notch-cutting—the sex isn’t as important as the bet he has with her step-brother (the later, amorous bad-guy) that he CAN have sex with her.  And he (the step-brother) has convinced himself that he loves her, when in truth he’s been trying to violate her in various ways his whole life.  So he’s just another variation on the rapist.  (It would be interesting to see his relationship with his girlfriend in greater detail, instead of the hints of dysfunction and abuse the movie shows.)

On point two, some of us live in California, and “beautiful people” of both sexes and all orientations gather here for some reason.  This gets pawned off as entitlement because guys tend to want the Hot Chick(tm) and don’t care as much about a social/cultural/personality match.  There is a reason the website Hot Chicks with Douchebags exists, and most Nice Guys(tm) are going to read your intervention as praise of “settling.”

@Doug,
I think that is one of the first things this book asks you to do.  I have it with me right now. 

I still don’t quite understand how it helped me, but I think it re-defines procrastination not as a problem to overcome, but as a kind of a rewarding habit that some of us develop to temporarily relieve stress.  It is more of a “think” book than a “do” book.  It has some mental exercises in it, but before I did ONE thing, it had already helped tons.  I had to put it down, I couldn’t WAIT to work on some of my more exciting ideas, hang out with my friends, do some creative baking, hell!  I even called my parents (which is like pulling teeth for me).

Best $15 I ever invested.

One way out for Nice Guys(TM):

When you’re rich, you’re handsome, charming, and you sing well, too.