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Next entry: I’m Peggy Olson, and I’d like to smoke….. Previous entry: Huh. Didn’t see that coming.

The organic vs. the undeserving

FoodHealth Care

Ed Kilgore has a really great must-read article about how the Republicans are pretending to be fans of Medicare to red-bait and race-bait elderly white people and others with good insurance on health care reform.  It’s the same image of the “welfare queen” that Republicans (and neoliberals) have been humping for decades now, and of course it’s racist.  The regular invocation of laziness to describe people considered unworthy—-in this case, of buying insurance—-is a coded racist stereotype.  The mere whiff of the word “lazy” sets off the Republican base at this point to think of black people, though it’s worth noting that Ronald Reagan, who really took this kind of race-baiting to a new level, was more overt, using geographic signifiers and terms like “young bucks”, so there was no doubt who he was talking about.  That it’s Michael Steele pushing this message changes nothing, and it just reminds me of how the conservative movement employs a small army of women to argue that women shouldn’t have very many rights. 

A couple of good quotes from Kilgore’s piece:

But in all the well-deserved mockery of Steele, what went largely unnoticed was his implicit attempt to stoke resentment of the uninsured by the insured – more specifically, those insured by what Republicans normally call “socialized medicine.” He referred to retirees, present and future, as “the greatest generation” (a rather anachronistic reference since today’s 65-year-olds were actually born in 1944) whose right to exactly those Medicare benefits they currently receive should not be sacrificed to Obama’s “healthcare experiment.” At another point, Steele suggested that Democrats were trying to ration healthcare so as to make procedures less available to seniors, and more available to “young and middle-aged people.”.....

What’s most interesting, and dangerous, about the new “welfare wedge” is that it’s not about poor people who don’t work for a living. After all, most very poor families often already have health insurance (depending on where they live) via Medicaid, and those who don’t work these days generally don’t have the option of working. The target of “welfare” shouters seems to be the working poor, or middle-class minority families who are struggling to stay in the middle class.

Which is why the arguments that the uninsured are lazy and worthless really can’t be much else besides race-baiting, because the uninsured are mostly people who work, and mostly people who are either laid off and actively seeking work, victims of corporate policies that will get you to work 39 hours, 59 minutes a week (but not a minute more), or people working in small, entrepreneurial businesses.  In other words, these are all people that are absolutely, 100% necessary to keep our economy running the way it does, unless you think we don’t need people such as construction workers.  Yes, even the unemployed are necessary, since economists assure us they are necessary to restrain inflation. As a group, the uninsured are a whole lot less white than the protesters

But we’ve been over this ground plenty on this blog, so I’d like to address the other “undeserving” narrative that’s cropping up, and it has its own kind of classism—-the idea that the only thing that health care reform will do is redirect money from the healthy to the unhealthy, and that the unhealthy brought it on themselves.  Digby posted a quote from Ashton Kutchner trotting this crap out on Bill Maher’s show.

“Frankly, I don’t want to pay for the guy who’s getting a triple-bypass because he’s eating fast food all day and deep-fried snickers bars. I don’t want to pay for him! Whether he’s wealthy or he’s not!”


Of course, Kutchner is paying for that guy.  The mega ingestion of Snickers bars leading to triple bypass surgery is not a behavior confined to the uninsured, but I’d imagine is something that mostly happens amongst people with full-time jobs.  Certainly the sort of sedentary desk jobs that are leading to these sorts of health problems are also the very jobs that are most likely to have good benefits.  But obviously the narrative he’s plugging into is one floated by conservatives who expect you to picture poor people who live on unhealthy, high calorie diets because produce is forbiddingly expensive, or because they live in neighborhoods with no grocery stores, but that have a McDonald’s with its dollar menu on every block.  I fail to see how this attitude isn’t just an updated version of the industrial age belief that the poor were there to be worked from childhood until they died in their early 30s, preferably while working.

But it’s apparently an easy trap for a lot of yuppie liberals to fall into, presumably because they’re involved in the cult of healthiness.  Which is too bad, because I’m a cult member of good standing, though I’m not really an obsessive about it, and you’ll find me training for a marathon the day after you find me pulling my toenails out with a pair of pliers.  It’s easy to slip from thinking that because you eat right and exercise, you’re never going to die—-or that you’ll pass away quietly in your sleep sometime after you turn 100.  Cause of death will be having finished all your work here.  And if you think that I’m overstating the issue, I present to you exhibit 1: The anti-vaccinations nutters, who are almost all liberal yuppies who’ve convinced themselves their pantries full of organic food negate the need for vaccinations.

Which is why I was disappointed to see Michael Pollan defending Whole Foods against the boycott.  Not that I think the boycott will amount to anything, since most boycotts don’t, and nor do I think that there’s any value in targeting businesses for right wing views, or else you’d have to disengage from pretty much all of them except Time Warner and some Microsoft products.  But I appreciated the Whole Foods boycott, because I think it was a symbolic reminder that eating food labeled “organic” isn’t some kind of health tonic that will negate your need for health care.  John Mackey’s opinion on the whole health care debate was only deemed important because Whole Foods is associated with healthiness, and therefore the whole thing was a way to strengthen the belief that the only reason we need universal health care is that “some people” are lazy and inattentive to their health. Of course, there’s lots of ways to get sick that have nothing to do with where your apples came from.  The recent death of Ted Kennedy, who got brain cancer and didn’t die from any kind of abuse of his body, should be a somber enough reminder of that.

Of course, Pollan supports health care reform—-and actually makes good points about how health care reform could lead to food reform—-but the problem with these sorts of things is that most people just remember that Pollan defended Whole Foods, and thus feel reassured that their beliefs that the non-organic-eating don’t deserve health care are sound.  Pollan’s more subtle message is going to get lost in the chest-puffing healthiness contests. 

This is a little off-topic, but what the hell: Of course, I’m personally indifferent to the Whole Foods boycott, since I shop there maybe twice a year, and it’s almost always strictly for food that’s really bad for you, namely something from the epic candy/bakery section at their flagship store here in Austin.  I buy most of my food from Central Market, which is a cheaper but way nicer version of that kind of grocery store, and from the farmer’s market.  (Pollan would be happy—-ours takes food stamps, and people do use the program.)  That said, his full-throated defense of Whole Foods cracks me up.  My grocery store has a lot of the kinds of products that the existence of Whole Foods has brought into being, and even though the word “organic” is stamped all over them, I have to say that they don’t fit even remotely in with Pollan’s rule about your great-grandmother recognizing it as food.  (Or someone’s great-grandmother, at least.  My great-grandmother wouldn’t recognize couscous as food, but a lot of great-grandmothers would.)  For instance, yesterday at Central Market I saw this huge display of organic Pop Tarts.  They were called something else, toaster pastries or something like that, and I almost took a picture of the display, since it cracked me up.  Organic high fructose corn syrup is still high fructose corn syrup.  And Whole Foods has been instrumental in the process of taking the same old crappy foods, repackaging them as organic, and convincing their consumers that this makes them somehow healthier.

I’m sure there’s an organic Snickers bar out by now, isn’t there?

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 09:27 AM • (79) Comments

“Frankly, I don’t want to pay for the guy who’s getting a triple-bypass because he’s eating fast food all day and deep-fried snickers bars. I don’t want to pay for him! Whether he’s wealthy or he’s not!”

And I don’t want hobos living under my bridges, no matter how much money they have!

But it’s apparently an easy trap for a lot of yuppie liberals to fall into, presumably because they’re involved in the cult of healthiness.

Which is why the Dems need to do a better job of framing the issue.  Highlight the “pre-existing conditions”.  My roommate has a weak heart.  He needs annual checkups and a prescription of heart medication if he wants to make it to 50.  All the healthy eating in the world isn’t going to magically make his heart stronger again.

Highlight parents - healthy, smart, educated parents - with cancer.  My favorite example is my grandmother, an avid anti-smoker, who died of lung cancer when she was 60.  What do you do against that?

Or, if you really want to have some fun, bring up the specter of Polio in the 40s and Swine/Avian Flu in the modern day.  Paint a picture of flooded emergency rooms and college students going bust trying to juggle school, a part time job, and a debilitating illness.

The 20-something generation is smart enough to see through the bullshit.  They’ll recognize the value of good medical coverage pretty quick, if they haven’t encountered a compelling reason to support it already.

Comment #1: Zifnab  on  08/31  at  11:03 AM

Yeah, that was certainly the case for me. When I got hit by the hospital bill, I was working part time and supplementing that with UI while looking for a full-time job in my career path. I was too poor to afford COBRA, but too rich for Medicaid. That lovely not-so-thin line where I can live a passable existence, but couldn’t actually save anything for emergencies.

I’m just REALLY lucky that I had middle-class family that could loan me money to move cross-country to the job I found; otherwise that might have been the end of the road; Bankrupted with as little as $4000 in debt.

As you say, We’re already paying for everyone’s healthcare, jst in the least efficient way. Every time someone declared bankruptcy in the face of a medical bill, everyone else’s medical bills and insurance premiums go up to cover. Every person dropped or denied coverage no longer pays anything in. As prices go up, people who can’t afford it no longer pay in, and every one of those becomes an uninsured time bomb waiting to drop another bankruptcy on the rest of the people who are healthy and wealthy enough to afford insurance they might never use.

Comment #2: Left_Wing_Fox  on  08/31  at  11:05 AM

It should be reminded that the organic idea that Whole Foods has so successfully co-opted was originally the guiding spirit of food co-ops, which began in the 1930s and were revived in the 1960s, and which embraced not only the idea of organic food, but also the equally good ideas of community ownership and worker management.

A few of these co-ops still exist today.  They include Willy Street Co-op in Madison, WI, and Mississippi Market in Saint Paul.  Many other food co-ops (Mifflin Street Co-op in Madison and North Country Co-op in Minneapolis) have fallen victim to their many profit-focused imitators, such as Whole Foods, in much the same way as independently owned cafés have fallen victim to Starbucks.

I am disappointed that Michael Pollan has seen fit to defend Whole Foods against a boycott that is clearly aimed to force it to respect just a little of the broader, more holistic movement that it has to profitably pirated and to some degree falsified.  Judging from what he has written about the co-opted “Big Organic” movement (in his excellent book THE OMNIVORE’S DILEMMA), Pollan really should know better.

I am even more saddened that the organic movement, once scorned as the impractical revolt of dirty hippies against progress, now is scorned as the impractical gentrification of food by status-obsessed yuppies.  Indeed, it still bears both marks of scorn, however incongruous they may be.  This is not MY organic movement, which began as the humblest, most practical, and most down-to-earth movement in the world, founded simply and sensibly upon respect for the soil and for future generations who will have to rely upon it, just as we do, for most of our food.

Comment #3: JakobFabian01  on  08/31  at  11:05 AM

An example of why you won’t live forever is Linda McCartney. She was a vegan, she had universal health care because she lived in England and she could afford any type of food or see any doctor anywhere in the world that she wanted to because Sir Paul has enough money to last ten lifetimes.  Red meat, Cheetos and couch potatoitis did not kill her—breast cancer did.

The only reason we can’t use her death as an example to the Ashton Kutcher’s of the world is because they would twist it and say, “You see! That socialized medicine can’t save anybody! Even the rich.”

Comment #4: DC Fem  on  08/31  at  11:08 AM

I have a handful of chronic illnesses that started cropping up around the time I was in my tweens and weren’t properly diagnosed until my late, late, late teens.  You would think that would be enough to convince someone that A.) young people are not invincible and need insurance that actually covers stuff, and B.) health issues sometimes happen for NO GODDAMN REASON. 

Of course, there was that woman who tried to tell us that our disease was punishment for our sins.  Boy did that make me want to punch someone. 

And you would think having a sibling who suddenly racked up a lot of medical bills in her early 20s would have shown my brother how necessary it is to have health insurance.  But he had to be practically begged by my mom to sign up through his employer.  I just don’t get it.  And I don’t think the illness makes me not get it.  I think I wouldn’t get it regardless.  Why doesn’t someone think they need health insurance??  You never know when a car will hit you or you’ll develop cancer or fall down a flight of stairs.  And you most certainly never know when some weird disease will crop up.  You could be the youngest, healthiest, best eater in the universe and still get sick.

Comment #5: BonAppetit  on  08/31  at  11:29 AM

The fundamental attribution error raises its head again!  Here’s how it works: I get sick due to totally understandable and unavoidable things like genetic predisposition or environmental pollution or whatevertheheck.  You, on the other hand, get sick because you are a bad person who ate too many damned fried Snickers bars!  I’m not payin’ for you!

Comment #6: Rumblelizard  on  08/31  at  11:29 AM

The part of Michael Pollan’s defense that bothered me was the defense of Whole Foods as being “good for farmers.” Well, they’re better than your typical supermarket in that they do get produce from local, organic farms, but the improvement is only marginal. They don’t carry a whole lot of local produce relative to the totality of what they have shipped in, and they are draconian negotiators. Not surprisingly, farmers have essentially no ability to name a fair price for their product; either they take what Whole Foods will pay them for it, or they go somewhere else. Fortunately, many farmers in my former area (Western Mass) have lots of other places to go, but in lots of other parts of the country, selling to Whole Foods is probably a non-option, simply because being a small-time organic farmer is just not possible. And of course, Whole Foods as the same aesthetic standards for their organic local produce as any supermarket does for the their conventional stuff, so that reduces the money you can get from selling to WFM even further.

Comment #7: grolby  on  08/31  at  11:37 AM

Frankly, I don’t want to pay for the guy who’s getting a triple-bypass because he’s eating fast food all day and deep-fried snickers bars.

Frankly, I don’t want to pay for shit programs like Punk’d but I have to because it’s part of the cable package that gives me MythBusters.

Comment #8: August J. Pollak  on  08/31  at  11:49 AM

While you are absolutely correct about the race baiting inherent in this whole “dialogue,” there are other dimensions as well.  Much of this derives from the Puritan embrace of the Protestant Ethic of the elect whose status is revealed by their material wealth.  American (and other) elites whole heartedly embraced this notion that great wealth represented a sign of God’s favor, while poverty symbolized his disfavor.  This has been a dominant trope in our class relations from the beginnings of the Republic.  The consequence is the consistent blaming the victim, that the poor are responsible for their own poeverty, not the greed of our economic elites.

Comment #9: DrDick  on  08/31  at  11:49 AM

How about Dana Reeve?  Never smoked, died of lung cancer.

Also, my best friend in high school grew up in a family which has never been inclined to eat fast food and regularly engages in athletic activity.  It’s probably the main reason her mom is still alive, since she’s now on her THIRD bout of brain cancer.

Comment #10: trollprincess  on  08/31  at  11:50 AM

The recent death of Ted Kennedy, who got brain cancer and didn’t die from any kind of abuse of his body, should be a somber enough reminder of that.

Here’s the thing, though:  you will never, ever be able to convince these people that Kennedy’s brain tumor was not directly related to his heavy drinking of 30 years ago.  They really are convinced that disease only happens because the sick person did something wrong, and they will go through your past with a fine-tooth comb to find something that maybe sorta kinda fits so they can maintain their belief that they will never get sick and never die because they’re good people who always do the right thing.

Comment #11: Mnemosyne  on  08/31  at  11:50 AM

“Frankly, I don’t want to pay for the guy who’s getting a triple-bypass because he’s eating fast food all day and deep-fried snickers bars. I don’t want to pay for him! Whether he’s wealthy or he’s not!”

A huge part of this is fat-shaming.  While eating habits and weight are factors in heart disease, they are certainly not the only factors.  I’m only 24 and at my last doctor visit my blood pressure was a little high for the first time ever.  This happened after I had lost 35 pounds and started exercising regularly.  I rarely eat fast food and I’ve never had nor wanted a deep-fried Snickers bar.  So why do I suddenly have a hypertension problem?  I inherited it from my (skinny) father.  It’s no different than the hypothyroidism that I inherited from my mother.  While there are “lifestyle factors” that will help or hurt some people when it comes to heart disease, it’s a myth that it’s completely under our control or that heart disease is a punishment for bad behaviors.  It just doesn’t make sense to deny care to people who “deserve” that triple-bypass simply to deny care to the bad fat man who didn’t life a pure and perfect life.  Fat-shaming is the new slut-shaming, and it effects everyone.

Comment #12: bananacat  on  08/31  at  11:58 AM

Another of the many fears in the monger’s stock is that there is only so much health care to go around, and that more for the currently uninsured means less for YOU.  Even if they remember Bush’s exhortation to make the pie higher,  Republicans today argue that those who have care now will find it harder to access until more doctors can be produced, which they say will take a decade or two.

A minor irritant from the article:
He referred to retirees, present and future, as “the greatest generation” (a rather anachronistic reference since today’s 65-year-olds were actually born in 1944)

Referring to today’s 65-year-olds as retirees is rather anachronistic, because the full Social Security retirement age was raised to 66, for those born from 1943 to 1954.

Comment #13: Hector B.  on  08/31  at  12:07 PM

I think that what gets me the most is the way that they scream about socialized heath care but demand that their medicare not be touched.  What the hell do they think medicare is anyway?  Hello people there is no pure capitalist state and like it or not forms of socialism have existed in the United States for decades.

Comment #14: womanistmusings  on  08/31  at  12:08 PM

I’ve teased out this conversation with libertarians. Three points:

1) So, you think we need a financial dissinsentive to further discourage people from unhealthy lifestyles that result in a triple bypass? Cut your life short twenty years, put you through horrible physical pain, a strong chance you’ll die—and, because none of that worries you, we’re going to bankrupt you, too?

2) You’ve highlighted an undeserving person, what with fast food and deep-fried Snickers. How do you propose screening them out that doesn’t also potentially screen out a deserving person?

3) Would a sin tax on fast food and deep-fried Snickers make you feel better? Because I’m not opposed to that.

“...well, free market = ponies! So THERE!”

Comment #15: humanadverb  on  08/31  at  12:21 PM

I have a low tolerance generally for strangers weighing in on what I stuff into my holes, but get especially pissed at two inordinately huge portions of those uninvited nannies:

1. Those telling me that eating/imbibing items from my own fricken heritage (that have sustained me since coming off the tit) are snobby and elitist because they aren’t part of the meddlers’ regular menu. Bulletin: the toasted remains of yesterday’s baguette or other bread/starchy product had with this morning’s latte, cappuccino or whatever is actually peasant food around most of the world. And even if they aren’t someone’s legacy food, so what?

2. Pronouncements about what constitutes health, blowing on a cloud of Minty Scope- puke- morning-margerita and nicotine-scented breath from overly botox’d frozen rictus-smiles on some surgically mangled face.

Just stop it. My egalitarian message especially for (2) is that they die their way, I’ll do it mine. And here’s an underreported phenomenon that overly punishes women and gay men for their “vanity”: binge-ing and purging by heterosexual men to maintain weight, incl. among athletes and performers to get to an ideal weight.

Comment #16: CassandraLiberal  on  08/31  at  12:28 PM

For instance, yesterday at Central Market I saw this huge display of organic Pop Tarts.  They were called something else, toaster pastries or something like that, and I almost took a picture of the display, since it cracked me up.  Organic high fructose corn syrup is still high fructose corn syrup.

Just so the unaware don’t get the wrong impression, the Toaster Pastries you posted a picture of at the top of the post are organic and are Pop Tarts of another name, but they don’t contain any corn syrup, organic or otherwise.  I only know this because there is a box of them in my desk drawer and I bought them specifically because they DON’T contain corn syrup.  They’re not exactly great otherwise, but just wanted to prevent the wrong impression from being given here.

And I bought them at Kroger.  At least a buck cheaper than Whole Foods and the labor is unionized.

Comment #17: Louisville327  on  08/31  at  12:39 PM

The only reason we can’t use her death as an example to the Ashton Kutcher’s of the world is because they would twist it and say, “You see! That socialized medicine can’t save anybody! Even the rich.”

But it allowed her to live LONGER and not die in pain and despair.  The point is NO medicine could have saved her: she could afford anything.  Same with George Harrison: brain cancer kills you in 15 months with the most aggressive treatments.

You die sooner without the treatment. 

Poor people should just die, after all.  Then they wouldn’t be able to make the rich feel guilty about being able to hire a personal ‘consierge’ physician.

Comment #18: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  08/31  at  12:42 PM

I have completely revamped my eating habits - mostly, anyway. I buy frozen spinach & green beans(99 cents to $1.50 at the store), which I microwave, along with a turkey burger I nuke and cut up. I take this concoction to work and this is my lunch, which comes at 4:30 since I work late, and it’s my biggest meal of the day. I’ve started having McCann’s Irish Oatmeal for breakfast along with a little unsweetened applesauce, and you know what? some people still give me dissaproving stares because I-gasp!-microwave my food! I can’t win.

Comment #19: Moe Shinola  on  08/31  at  12:45 PM

Random Whole Foods-related snipe: Last week my Whole Foods store’s in-store sale flyer promoted boxes of single-serving packets of peanut butter. The ingredients are organic but they’re packaged in more plastic than ever before!

Comment #20: Orange  on  08/31  at  12:46 PM

You’ve highlighted an undeserving person, what with fast food and deep-fried Snickers. How do you propose screening them out that doesn’t also potentially screen out a deserving person?

I think that the key difference between liberals and conservatives is that liberals’ top priority is helping people who need and deserve help, and conservatives’ top priority is punishing people who deserve punishment, even if it hurts them in the process.  For example, I used to volunteer at a soup kitchen and any hungry person was allowed to come and get some food.  They didn’t even have to be homeless, and many poor people aren’t (a lot stayed at the YMCA).  When I talk about this, someone inevitably says “don’t you think that some of those people were taking advantage of you?”  My response is, “So what if they were?  Do you expect me to deny food to 99 genuinely needy people because one person might not actually need that food?”  That’s really what it comes down in every single situation.  Our current health care system is the world in the industrialized world, even for the rich insured people, if only because they have to pay more than necessary.  But to them, it’s worth getting inferior service themselves and denying health care completely to many “deserving” people, as long as those few bad ones get what’s coming to them.  This same attitude shows up in criminal justice.  These people would rather be “tough on crime” than “effective” on crime, even at their own expense.  Providing good quality pre-school and childcare to poor families not only reduces crime, but reduces it enough that we end up saving money.  But the thought of some undeserving poor person getting free or low-cost pre-school that they don’t deserve makes these people so angry that they would rather keep crime rates up and then pay twice as much for court and jail costs.  I could go on and on with examples.

Comment #21: bananacat  on  08/31  at  12:47 PM

At my job’s old office location, there was a whole foods at the other end of the parking lot, and then a Trader Joe’s up the hill. We would go to Whole Foods for lunch and my general impression was that the food was generally unsatisfying and very expensive. I don’t really miss it. Better than eating pizza day after day, but not really a bargain. And I only made the mistake of trying to get groceries for the nightly meal there once, when I ended up paying $8 for a bundle of asparagus and a couple of tomatoes.

My impression is that Whole Foods and especially Trader Joe’s (which at least is a little more inexpensive) is filling the niche of the “health-conscious” consumer who doesn’t want to cook. I rarely saw someone at the checkout line at Whole Foods with a cart loaded up with $7 broccoli and $3/apiece lemons. The carts are loaded up with Amy’s frozen dinners, Annie’s Mac & Cheese, Dagoba bars and Panda Munch. They specialize in boxed meals that have the words “organic” on them somewhere… so Pollan was way out of line to go out of his way defending Whole Foods: one of his primary directives is “don’t buy food with a lot of ingredients on the package” and Whole Foods pushes boxed meals just as bad as any Wal-Mart or discount grocery store.

Comment #22: Mighty Ponygirl  on  08/31  at  12:54 PM

...and didn’t spell “disapproving” right, either.

Comment #23: Moe Shinola  on  08/31  at  12:56 PM

The people who want to make agriculture more labor intensive and less productive are, unfortunately, not going to be the ones who pay the price in terms of food shortages and actually doing the field work if their agricultural revolution comes to pass.

Comment #24: Entomologista  on  08/31  at  01:20 PM

Organic high fructose corn syrup is still high fructose corn syrup.

Since Louisville327 started picking on you, I’ll continue.  wink  There is no such thing as organic high-fructose corn syrup, because corn cannot be certified organic due to the way it pollinates.  So you won’t have corn syrup of any kind in something labeled “organic.”

The point is more that sugar is sugar and sucrose isn’t more virtuous than HFCS, though some of us do find it tastier.

Comment #25: Mnemosyne  on  08/31  at  01:25 PM

Recently my mother had knee replacement surgery she had arthritic knees.  Fortunately medicare and supplemental insurance paid for the whole thing.  What I though was interesting though was that in the bed next to her was a woman who had had the same surgery, arthritis you ask?

Nope, she was a runner who told me “According to my Dr. all the running just wore my knee out.”  Would Aston Kutchner believe he shouldn’t have to pay for her surgery?  It was a lifestyle choice that caused this after all, just one he would approve of.

Comment #26: lib_in_the_OC  on  08/31  at  01:34 PM

“Eat right, Exercise, Die Anyway”
as the T-Shirt says:

Not trying to dis healthy lifestyles, but everyone gets sick with something sooner or later.  Everyone needs care.  Some sooner, some later.  Nobody gets out alive.  Death is universal, illness is universal, health care should be universal.

Comment #27: Magis  on  08/31  at  01:46 PM

Who the hell ever clogged their arteries eating deep-fried Snickers bars? People who spend all their time at fairs and carnivals? I guess Kutcher’s even stupider than he looks.

Comment #28: junk science  on  08/31  at  01:46 PM

If I concede that some people want it, Ent, will you concede that the rest of us are just smart enough to realize that oil won’t stay cheap forever, and therefore agriculture based on it isn’t sustainable?

Comment #29: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/31  at  01:47 PM

Fine, but I’ll point out that the demonization of HFCs has led to an unfortunate side consequence of people thinking refined sugar is just fine—-grandma used it!—-and it’s barely any better, particularly in the quantities that people prefer to consume.

Comment #30: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/31  at  01:49 PM

All these details about diet!  I think y’all are over-thinking your criticism.  The idea is to dredge up any excuse to deny public funds to some of the potential recipients.  (Incidentally, the excuse only needs to be plausible - plausible to idiots - it doesn’t actually have to be true, e.g. “death boards”.)  Just keep slinging that mud, and sooner or later we’ll have us a complete adobe hut. 

Next week: “Did you know that OsamaCare offers free health care to convicted drunk drivers!!!  More on Glenn Beck tonight!” 

Week after next:  “Did you know that OsamaCare offers free health care to Mexican illegal immigrants!!!  More on Lou Dobbs tonight!”

Week after: “Did you know that OsamaCare offers free health care to registered sex offenders!!!  More on Bill O’Reilly tonight!”

Week n: “Did you know that OsamaCare offers free health care to $g!!!  More on $b tonight!” where $g comes off the list of despised outsider groups and $b off the list of insurance-company-paid blowhards.

Comment #31: W. Kiernan  on  08/31  at  01:51 PM

How on earth can you possibly prove that the deep fried Snickers is even related to the triple bypass?  No one doubts that my high blood pressure is hereditary because it presented itself when I was skinny, running every day, and living on rabbit food.  If I had been a sedentary lover of cheeseburgers, my lifestyle would have been blamed for my BP….but that would have been horseshit.

Comment #32: Yawgmoth  on  08/31  at  01:51 PM

This isn’t really my area of expertise, have any studies been done about the long-term health care costs of people who “do the healthy thing” vs. the deep fried snickers bar population? I mean, if I think about someone who smokes and eats poorly, I generally thing “that person is going to keel over at 56,” not “that person is going to be a drag on our resources well into their 80s.” Now someone who eats right and exercises? They may live longer, but the longer you live, the more likely you’re going to get some sort of long-term wasting disease like dementia or cancer.

Of course, I was supposed to check in with Carousel over 2 years ago…

Comment #33: Mighty Ponygirl  on  08/31  at  01:58 PM

Ha! My mom gives those pop tarts to my mentally ill and, on occasion, incredibly difficult grandmother, as a placating distraction. Of course, my mom doesn’t think all that highly of them, but they’re a fuckload less chemically than the alternative.

I have to disagree on the lack of available alternatives to right-wing corporations, at least in the case of Whole Foods. Almost everywhere that Whole Foods is available, there is a local co-op and a farmer’s market. There’s really no reason not to take your money elsewhere. The kind of cynicism expressed here is enabling to corporate hegemony, and your argument is contradicted here by your own behavior- you yourself support alternatives. There’s no reason for others not to do the same.

I would also vehemently argue against the idea that W F has brought any of these products into being. My family has shopped at co-ops and natural foods stores my whole life- these type of products have been around at least since the 70’s. Perhaps they’ve been refined over time, but look at the evolution of, say, the vegetarian restaurant or cookbook. Deborah Madison’s “Greens” has a higher standard for flavor and technique than Laurel’s Kitchen. This was a wider evolution in the health foods market, and by no means should it be attributed to W F. That’s just revisionist history.

Comment #34: samanthab.  on  08/31  at  01:59 PM

Fine, but I’ll point out that the demonization of HFCs has led to an unfortunate side consequence of people thinking refined sugar is just fine—-grandma used it!—-and it’s barely any better, particularly in the quantities that people prefer to consume.

No disagreement there.  Sugar is pretty sketchy in all of its forms, unfortunately.

Comment #35: Louisville327  on  08/31  at  02:21 PM

“Now someone who eats right and exercises? They may live longer, but the longer you live, the more likely you’re going to get some sort of long-term wasting disease like dementia or cancer.”

No, no, no!  Jesus personally sends a chariot down from Heaven to pick you up and take you to your fully-furnished and landscaped heavenly mansion.  With a Lamborghini parked in front.

Dementia and cancer?  Those maladies only strike people who haven’t lived a godly life, unlike Brother Ashton Kutcher of the Hollywood Squares Ministries…

Comment #36: MikeEss  on  08/31  at  02:25 PM

ok just a word in defense of trader joe’s, ponygirl.  it is on the whole a LOT cheaper than whole foods, even the trader joe’s brand prepared foods, and the main thing is that in addition to Wild-Caught Organic Yuppie Special Unicorn Arugula (TM) whole foods sells way more “normal” foods you can buy at ralphs or any regular grocery store for a lot less, while trader joe’s sells relatively little of that stuff.

Comment #37: chareth cutestory  on  08/31  at  02:28 PM

uh, didn’t I MAKE A POINT OUT OF SAYING TRADER JOES WAS LESS EXPENSIVE?

Jesus.

Comment #38: Mighty Ponygirl  on  08/31  at  02:31 PM

uh, didn’t I MAKE A POINT OUT OF SAYING TRADER JOES WAS LESS EXPENSIVE?

It’s less expensive than Whole Foods, which is insanely expensive, but in many cases Trader Joe’s is also less expensive than the regular grocery store.  It sounded like you were comparing two expensive stores and saying that one is slightly less expensive than the other.

What can I say, we take our Trader Joe’s very seriously out here in Cali and get a little annoyed when people talk about it like it’s some pricey, elitist store.

Comment #39: Mnemosyne  on  08/31  at  02:46 PM

whoa no need to shout!  you made it sound like the price difference between trader joe’s and whole foods was minimal. and yeah, what mnem said, TJ’s is often a bargain compared to vons or ralphs even.  it’s really not a pricey, elitist store by any stretch.

Comment #40: chareth cutestory  on  08/31  at  02:51 PM

Trader Joe’s is great.  Lots of nice stuff for decent prices.  We get several items there that are difficult to get anywhere else (at least without driving in to LA…).

I do admit to bracing myself for the day I find out their stuff is picked/packaged by pre-teen Central American orphans held here illegally and forced to work 16-hours/day in a barricaded warehouse where they’re chained to their machines (or something else equally egregious). 

I’m not singling out Trader Joe’s, but I’ve learned too many times that what seems great often turns out to be illusory. 

(And to be fair, I think the odds that Whole Foods or any of the other hoity-toity markets are exploiting the people working for them are at least as high…)

If it’s all on the up-and-up, I’d be happy to put my fears aside and just enjoy the food…

Comment #41: MikeEss  on  08/31  at  03:02 PM

I was sick over and over and over again in the two years I attempted to go vegetarian (and organic.)

Turns out wheat, corn, soy (all gluten) and milk products are primary food allergy territory for me: take out those sources of protein (and most beans too carbo for me), throw in allergies also to coffee, tea and anything fermented, as well as artificial sweeteners, and a vegetarian diet nearly killed me. Sugar, corn syrup also too many carbs.

Blood tests at the holistic doctor, and he recommended I go back to meat, I needed it.

When I eat meat, fish, chicken, (low carb) vegetables and fruit, I’m healthy—and I lose excess weight. (Never did like microwaves, and blew my last one up.)

But the vegetarian nazis attack—so by whose standards must I live to deserve healthcare? I spent thousands on worthless western medicine (was a physician who recommended low-fat vegetarianism, and was puzzled by the illnesses that resulted), but the acupuncturist with a degree in Oriental medicine who did save my life.

Frankly, I blew my savings on healthcare and can no longer afford Whole Foods, but their parking lot was full last week in Venice California, as I shopped at the store next to it.

Comment #42: judybrowni  on  08/31  at  03:04 PM

He referred to retirees, present and future, as “the greatest generation” (a rather anachronistic reference since today’s 65-year-olds were actually born in 1944)

Nevertheless, most retirees at this point are not part of the greatest generation.  Members of the greatest generation (generally defined as those old enough to serve in WWII) would have been born in the 10s and the first half of the 20s.  Most of them are dead by now.  Current retirees belong to the not particularly notable or accomplished generation sandwiched between the greatest generation and the boomers.

Comment #43: keshmeshi  on  08/31  at  03:16 PM

Magis that is awesome

“Death is universal, illness is universal, health care should be universal”

Also based on his movie career Ashton deserves less care than the fat guy who probably contributes more to society

Comment #44: willm1015  on  08/31  at  03:23 PM

“Also based on his movie career Ashton deserves less care than the fat guy who probably contributes more to society”

Hey!  What about his Oscar-worthy performance in What Happens in Vegas?...

Comment #45: MikeEss  on  08/31  at  03:47 PM

I fail to see how this attitude isn’t just an updated version of the industrial age belief that the poor were there to be worked from childhood until they died in their early 30s, preferably while working.

Oh it is.
I’m interested in seeing how they’re going to package debtor’s prisons for the coming era…
I’m sure the soundbites and talking points will be just as jam packed with hate, evil and ignorance as the crap about “paying for your neighbor/illegal immigrants” that’s out there right now.
I got an earful of that from my right wing little brother while back home for grandpa’s funeral 2 weeks ago. *sigh* Depressing.

Comment #46: Danica Lefse Queen  on  08/31  at  03:51 PM

The only stuff I buy in Whole Foods is: (a) their house-brand 8oz canned tomato sauce, which is better than most any other brand; (b) good-priced capote capers (other markets here tend to sell only nonpareils); (c) Pimentón de la Vera (which nobody else close to here seems to sell, grrr), and (d) beer.  The produce isn’t particularly good there, they don’t have good (or any) boxed wine, Safeway has better French bread, their ethnic food choices are too anglo-oriented, etc.; the list just goes on.

Comment #21: catgirl on 08/31 at 11:47 AM:

I think that the key difference between liberals and conservatives is that liberals’ top priority is helping people who need and deserve help, and conservatives’ top priority is punishing people who deserve punishment, even if it hurts them in the process.

Yeah, though that “even if it hurts them in the process” part must be clarified, because they don’t believe they could possibly be hurt by those policies, because they are Good People™ and Real Americans™.

Comment #47: sacundim  on  08/31  at  03:57 PM

...so by whose standards must I live to deserve healthcare?

amen judybrowni.
also a good question to ask about freedom of choice for women!
well said.

Comment #48: Danica Lefse Queen  on  08/31  at  03:59 PM

I’m just wondering where all these people are who decide to treat their body like crap just because they have health insurance?  I’ve never met these people but I concede that my anecdata may be flawed.  It seems to me that in most cases, the absence or presence of health insurance does pretty much nothing to change one’s exercise or eating habits; the only thing it changes is whether or not someone goes to see a doctor when they get tingling in their finger tips (carpal tunnel or diabetes) or waits until they have a stroke.

Every time I hear someone complain about “lifestyle choice” in regard to healthcare, I’m going to start asking them if they ever eat red meat, drink soda, eat potato chips, eat MOST of the crap bread available (even whole wheat or multigrain is loaded with sugar or HFCS and usually low on actual whole grains), eat from a box, cook in a crock pot (apparently it increases MSG levels in food), how often they exercise, do they ever drive over the speed limit, ever smoked, ever drink alcohol, etc ad nauseum.  Even the most health conscious individuals make “lifestyle” choices that are not pure moral goodness and I suspect the people most willing to deny others healthcare for their impurity would be highly offended to have THEIR lifestyle examined and judged.  But they’re precious snowflakes whose diseases/illnesses are beyond their control.

Comment #49: history_mom  on  08/31  at  04:05 PM

”...and I suspect the people most willing to deny others healthcare for their impurity would be highly offended to have THEIR lifestyle examined and judged.  But they’re precious snowflakes whose diseases/illnesses are beyond their control.”

Someone like this?:

Michelle Bachmann: “That’s why people need to continue to go to the town halls, continue to melt the phone lines of their liberal members of Congress,” said Bachmann, “and let them know, under no certain circumstances will I give the government control over my body and my health care decisions…”

Comment #50: MikeEss  on  08/31  at  04:27 PM

I spent thousands on worthless western medicine (was a physician who recommended low-fat vegetarianism, and was puzzled by the illnesses that resulted), but the acupuncturist with a degree in Oriental medicine who did save my life.

I’m truly very glad you figured out how to eat in a way that’s satisfying and healthy.  But your experience in medicine is the exception that proves the rule.  There are idiot doctors practicing western medicine and smart one practicing alternative medicine.  That doesn’t make the former useless or the latter any more effective.

Comment #51: bomberE  on  08/31  at  04:30 PM

Trader Joe’s is great.  Lots of nice stuff for decent prices.  We get several items there that are difficult to get anywhere else (at least without driving in to LA…).

They are great and the prices are reasonable from what I’ve seen when I lived in the greater Boston area.  The customer base also tends to span far more of the socio-economic spectrum than Whole Foods IME. 

On the other hand, the vast majority of customers shopping at Whole Foods IME are upper/upper-middle class yuppies and overdressed/slumming trust-fund undergrads.

Comment #52: exholt  on  08/31  at  04:41 PM

1. I’m sick of the Greatest Generation crap. 
2. The self proclaimed Right Wing Terriorist claiming that his Mayflower ancestors didn’t ask for a hand out.? Of course not! They didn’t need to:they just TOOK from the indigious people who were already there.

Comment #53: pitbullgirl65  on  08/31  at  04:52 PM

I have a low tolerance generally for strangers weighing in on what I stuff into my holes,

A line I intend to swipe and pass off as my own, mwahahahahahah!

Comment #54: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/31  at  05:07 PM

My wife has been a vegetarian all her life.  She’s never smoked or done drugs, and she’s never even been drunk.  A few years ago, she was diagnosed with MS.  Her medications cost about $1200/month.  Did she bring this on herself?  MS is thought to be largely genetic.

Fuck Ashton Kutcher.  Fuck him sideways.  And the horse he rode in on.

Comment #55: Captain Bathrobe  on  08/31  at  05:12 PM

“The self proclaimed Right Wing Terriorist claiming that his Mayflower ancestors didn’t ask for a hand out.? Of course not! They didn’t need to:they just TOOK from the indigious people who were already there.”

As my bigoted grandfather would probably say (attempting to defend the raping and pillaging of pre-European America), “Well, they weren’t doing anything with it anyway…”

Comment #56: MikeEss  on  08/31  at  05:13 PM

I have to disagree on the lack of available alternatives to right-wing corporations, at least in the case of Whole Foods. Almost everywhere that Whole Foods is available, there is a local co-op and a farmer’s market. There’s really no reason not to take your money elsewhere. The kind of cynicism expressed here is enabling to corporate hegemony, and your argument is contradicted here by your own behavior- you yourself support alternatives.

I take it you’re addressing me.  If I’d blithely pointed out that I have alternatives, therefore everyone else should, too, then this whole thread would be about taking swipes at me for being an elitist who thinks that everyone is lucky enough to have something other than a Whole Foods.  Being a blogger is all about the trade-offs.  wink

Comment #57: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/31  at  05:19 PM

Here’s how it works: I get sick due to totally understandable and unavoidable things like genetic predisposition or environmental pollution or whatevertheheck.  You, on the other hand, get sick because you are a bad person who ate too many damned fried Snickers bars!  I’m not payin’ for you!

Or: health Calvinism. You are of the damned; I am of the elect.

Comment #58: pseudonymous in nc  on  08/31  at  05:20 PM

I want a Trader Joe’s, but it seems that Whole Foods has like gangster-d them away from us or something.  They’d be a huge hit in Austin, but we got nothing.

Comment #59: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/31  at  05:21 PM

Did she bring this on herself?  MS is thought to be largely genetic.

Well, she should have chosen her parents more wisely, so it’s all her own fault.  Until, of course, Kutcher comes down with a hereditary disease, in which case he’s a tragic victim of circumstance who we should all pity.  Pity pity pity.

It’s gotten disconnected from any particular religion, but there are plenty of Americans out there who are absolutely convinced that you can ward off any illness just by strength of mind/character and that if you do succumb to something like cancer or MS, it’s because you’re a weak person.  I ran into one once who told me that my mother must not have really wanted to live since she died of invasive breast cancer.  After all, if she’d really wanted to live, she would have.  QED.

How I refrained from punching that girl in the throat, I’ll never know.  I think I was just so paralyzed by the cruelty of telling someone that their mother essentially committed suicide rather than have to deal with her children any longer.

Comment #60: Mnemosyne  on  08/31  at  05:22 PM

I want a Trader Joe’s, but it seems that Whole Foods has like gangster-d them away from us or something.  They’d be a huge hit in Austin, but we got nothing.

What are Texas liquor laws like?  TJ’s makes a huge chunk of their money from selling alcohol, so they don’t go into states that have strict liquor laws.

Comment #61: Mnemosyne  on  08/31  at  05:29 PM

Judging by Trader Joe’s current locations, it just seems like they haven’t really expanded into the South or Southwest yet.  I also doubt that liquor laws have much to do with it.  Washington state has the second* worst liquor laws of any state I’ve ever lived in, and we have plenty of TJs.

*The first being New York state which also has Trader Joe’s.

Comment #62: keshmeshi  on  08/31  at  05:40 PM

Grocery stores can sell wine and beer here, but not liquor. We have a couple of blue laws, but they’re not bad—-stop selling at midnight, not before noon on Sundays.

Comment #63: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/31  at  05:41 PM

What I would like to know is why the central part of the USA does not have Trader Joe’s. I grew up in California and really miss it. How we can convince them to put one in Austin ASAP.

Yes, I found out about the cost of uninsured medical care….in 2004 just after graduating from St. Edward’s I had an appendectomy. No insurance. I was able to make arrangements with the hospital, anaesthesiologist, surgeon, and all of the other individuals involved in my care. The hospital told me that I didn’t qualify for indigent write-off but did tell me that the reason I had to pay full boat is because
INSURANCE COMPANIES

Comment #64: Therealhellkitty  on  08/31  at  05:51 PM

why did that post? well here’s the rest..Insurance companies can negotiate lower rates for services but the uninsured who pay for their own care also pay for the indigent write offs NOT insurance companies. At the rate I am going I will have paid off the $15,000 for my treatment when I’m 94.

Comment #65: Therealhellkitty  on  08/31  at  05:54 PM

Pennsylvania has the worst liquor laws of my experience. In New York, it’s still possible to purchase alcohol from a private distributor.

In PA,
1) You cannot purchase any alcohol in a grocery store.
2) You can purchase beer either from a distributor (by the case), or from a “restaurant” which can jack the prices way up on a single six-pack.
3) All wine and hard liquor are purchased through a Wine and Spirits Shop (sometimes with an extra pe on the end to add a hint of pretentiousness!). These places are run by the PA Liquor Control Board and of course are closed for all federal holidays.

Comment #66: Mighty Ponygirl  on  08/31  at  05:55 PM

1. I’m sick of the Greatest Generation crap. 

Wasn’t it the “Greatest Generation” who sent the baby boomers to Vietnam?

Comment #67: Tom P  on  08/31  at  06:01 PM

“Wasn’t it the “Greatest Generation” who sent the baby boomers to Vietnam?”

Yeah, but those dirty fucking slacker hippies they sent let America down…

Comment #68: MikeEss  on  08/31  at  06:17 PM

. . .  poor people who live on unhealthy, high calorie diets because produce is forbiddingly expensive, or because they live in neighborhoods with no grocery stores . . .

. . . or because those foods are a source of genuine pleasure, especially for people whose pleasures are not only few, but for whom even the most innocent pleasures are utterly begrudged by the Right. (1)

A lot of this has to do with this ‘winger attitude that goes: God forbid someone poorer than me should have something as nice as what I have.  How awful that a poor person should have an enjoyable family dinner someplace besides a soup kitchen, possibly in her own home, that she should even own a home (my late grandparents were poor all their lives, but they did own property—as did many former residents of LO’s 9th Ward, once; but the notion that poor people who lived in a cheap place would commonly be the owners of said cheap place is from a different era).

These are the same people who used to insist that the poor shouldn’t have bathtubs because they’d only use them to store coal.

Racism’s obviously a driver here, but it’s not the only one. There’s also this profound small-mindedness about the needs and personalities of people who’d benefit from these changes—class consciousness, for lack of a better word. (I apologize if I’m over-stating the obvious.)  If we extend the same medical care that Michael Steele and Aston Kutchner have to the poor, it means ceasing to see them as wildly different from ourselves (even in terms of medical needs)—which these people absolutely do—and then, what’s the point of being rich?

(1) The cause of the obesity epidemic isn’t all that obscure: we’re fat because we can be.  Kutchner is an actor, so he can’t. Tough luck, you pompous twit. I will think of you this evening, when we sit down to a big salad and a cassoulet, followed by a lemon-curd gallette, all homemade, and yes, we do eat like this most evenings, as would, I believe, most people if they had a choice—just as most people don’t sleep alone if they’ve got a choice, despite having to endure crap about it from different types of prudes. Oink oink to you all.

Comment #69: Molly, NYC  on  08/31  at  06:17 PM

There is no such thing as organic high-fructose corn syrup, because corn cannot be certified organic due to the way it pollinates.  So you won’t have corn syrup of any kind in something labeled “organic.”

That’s actually bullshit.  Although there are lots of corporations that would love you to believe it.

Unless it says 100% Organic on the label, there are ingredients that are not organic in the product.  Let me repeat again if it just says “Organic” on the label, the product does not have to be completely organic.  Including those “organic” pop-tarts up there, which have at least four “non-organic” ingredients in them.

You could quite honestly have HFCS in a certified organic product, but most companies realize that it just looks bad among the crunchy granola set that they are trying to sell to.

Comment #70: hypatia  on  08/31  at  06:17 PM

That’s actually bullshit.  Although there are lots of corporations that would love you to believe it.

Depends on the state you live in.  California has quite strict laws about what you can and can’t say is “organic,” and corn is one of them.  IIRC, our labeling laws are stricter than the federal ones.

Comment #71: Mnemosyne  on  08/31  at  06:21 PM

A “sin tax” on fatty foods is a bad idea. Some of my patients who have pancreatic insufficiency MUST eat a high fat diet and most are still skinny as rails. Why make them pay more? They already can’t afford the $20,000 in meds they need each year just to stay alive.

Comment #72: Alix  on  08/31  at  06:22 PM

the most fucked up part of Kutcher’s comment is that he has experienced the reality of a major medical problem. according to wikipedia his twin brother had a heart transplant as a child.

can i just say that i can think of nothing more socialized than getting the internal organ of a fellow citizen? FTW.

Comment #73: jessilikewhoa  on  08/31  at  06:24 PM

What is it about dating Demi Moore that makes men conservative idiots?

Comment #74: John Rove  on  08/31  at  06:55 PM

“What is it about dating Demi Moore that makes men conservative idiots?”

What is it about Ann Coulter, or Sarah Palin, or any of the other wingnut obsessions?

If we could decode the secret mating rituals of the American Conservative…

...we’d probably all toss our cookies…

Comment #75: MikeEss  on  08/31  at  08:12 PM

Catgirl (21):

I think that the key difference between liberals and conservatives is that liberals’ top priority is helping people who need and deserve help, and conservatives’ top priority is punishing people who deserve punishment, even if it hurts them in the process.

The Bible these people claim to believe they’re trying desperately to protect from Obama has a profoundly worded commandment: “Justice, justice shall you pursue.” (Deut. 16:20)

One explanation I’ve seen for the repetition is that it is important to help those who need help (the Torah uses “justice” to mean “charity”) as well as to punish those who have earned punishment.

history_mom (49):

I’m just wondering where all these people are who decide to treat their body like crap just because they have health insurance?  I’ve never met these people but I concede that my anecdata may be flawed.

I doubt ayone says “now that I’ll have insurance I’ll go wreck my health”; the idea is that people who don’t have health insurance will take better careof themselves, as though our health is entirely under our control.

The same, ah, logic says we should remove airbags in cars and replace them with spikes.

Alix (72):

A “sin tax” on fatty foods is a bad idea. Some of my patients who have pancreatic insufficiency MUST eat a high fat diet and most are still skinny as rails.

Nah. Foods can be readily and objectively classified into “good” and “bad,” and only willfully wrong people involve the latter in their lives. Same as sex.</sarcasm>

One of the first things David Patterson did wrong was support a tax on non-diet soda, as if a) non-diet soda is bad, b) taxes should be used as punishment, c) diet soda and non-diet soda can easily be classified, and d) bodegas typically have the personnel etc. to collect this tax. That last one particularly irks me. Paterson’s from the city, you can’t tell me he doesn’t know from bodegas.

Comment #76: Hershele Ostropoler  on  09/01  at  12:31 AM

I have a problem with sin taxes in the first place; they put the government in the position of profiting from a behavior they supposedly want to discourage. 

At a town hall meeting a couple weeks ago, I heard our County Commissioner say that his budget goal was “to make the people who make us need to have a criminal justice system pay for that system as much as possible.”  My mind boggles with the sheer injustice of that statement.

Comment #77: realityfighter  on  09/01  at  01:49 AM

Addendum: the toaster pastries pictured have cornstarch, though not HFCS. I checked the box my partner has. Why would ADM et al. let the organic standards be written to totally exclude corn? That seems silly of them.

Comment #78: Hershele Ostropoler  on  09/01  at  05:18 PM

I think that what gets me the most is the way that they scream about socialized heath care but demand that their medicare not be touched.  What the hell do they think medicare is anyway?  Hello people there is no pure capitalist state and like it or not forms of socialism have existed in the United States for decades.

Ha!  You and your logic!  What’s next, making sense?  Sheesh!

wink

Comment #79: TinaH  on  09/02  at  01:36 PM
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