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The pornography of non-rejection

Books

Sarah Hepola’s somewhat depressing article about the “Twilight” phenomenon—-amongst grown women, not just young girls—-kicks around a lot of theories about its appeal.  Since we know it’s not anything like quality,* it has to be pushing some major psychological buttons to get grown women to act like idiots by tearing through it, right?  That seems reasonable to me, but I found a lot of the theories kicked around in the article—-that the books address daddy issues, that it’s a form of regression, that women secretly fantasize about giving up their autonomy and identity—-to be unconvincing.  Except one.

“This is what I call ‘true love-ism,’” Laura Miller told me. “True love-ism is the secular religion of America, one that all of us can believe in. What’s appealing about Edward is his certainty. He craves Bella monogamously. The book feeds the delusion that an erotic god could love you, and that he’d also be faithful.” Miller sees the books as straight-ahead romance novels. In her 2008 review, she wrote, “Despite their gothic trappings [they] represent a resurrection of the most old-fashioned incarnation of the genre. They summon a world in which love is passionate, yet (relatively) chaste, girls need be nothing more than fetchingly vulnerable, and masterful men can be depended upon to protect and worship them for it.”

Hepola is skeptical, because none of the women she talked to were romance fans.  But I’m not.  They’re probably not romance fans, because that really crosses a line of socially unacceptability.  But “Twilight” is easier to write off, because it’s a vampire story, reading it is a one-time thing, and it’s a social phenomenon, so you can always say that you’re just curious about the hot new thing.  But I agree with Miller.  It’s a romance novel.  And we all know that romance novels are basically porn for women, and this is true of “Twilight”, even though it’s notoriously buttoned-up and chaste.  But until I read that passage, I didn’t really realize how true it was that romance novels are porn for women. And it’s not necessarily the fantasy of sex that they have in common with the videos aimed at men we think of as “porn”. It’s a different fantasy altogether: the fantasy of being completely desired, with no objections and no real obstacles.

Think about the male-oriented porn’s single most common fantasy, one that exists in the ugliest, most misogynist gonzo porn to the more playful videos marketed as safe for “couples”.  For male viewers, porn is all about a world where women are always up for it, with you (or the actor standing in as your cipher), and you’re facing a cornucopia of women who always, without fail, say yes.  The more misogynist porn ups the ante, showing that these women are so all-consumed with pleasing you that they will do any humiliating thing, and love it, because it pleases you, which is their only desire.  Writing it out, it seems a little disturbing, but I honestly think that many men are perfectly capable of realizing that’s just a fantasy, though I maintain that swimming through too much of this particular fantasy starts to affect the minds of Nice Guys® and douchebags, who start to absorb the idea that horny, willing women really should just fall into their laps.  But most men look at some porn and are able to be well-adjusted.  When they aren’t, let’s agree that porn is far from the only place they’re getting the message that women exist to serve, and have no desires worth respecting.  (Many members of Congress, for instance, push that message.)

“Twilight” speaks to that basic fantasy of being so enticing that rejection is impossible.  Bella has not one, but two men who are so completely in love with her and only her that they can’t even think about anyone else.  (From what I understand, one of them is only able to escape his obsession by falling in love with Bella’s infant daughter.  Gross, I know.)  From that angle, it’s understandable, and even a little disturbing that we expect women to be ashamed of having these kinds of sexual fantasies.  After all, no one who has even an ounce of sophistication would deny that men have a right to watch all sorts of trashy porn without their general good taste being questioned. 


Of course, the chastity angle is disturbing.  It’s infantilizing, and it reinforces the negative stereotype that women only care about romance and men only care about sex.  (Even though the common theme in all these fantasies is living in a world without the possibility of rejection.)  But it makes a lot of sense.  In our culture, there’s a lot of space for a man to keep a woman under his thumb by fucking her and then disdaining her, mocking her to his friends, and swearing up and down he doesn’t really find her sexually attractive.  I’m sure more women than not have had the ugly experience of being coupled with an immature man who blows hot and then cold, who makes you feel desired, and then dumps on you because he fears that treating you with respect will emasculate him.  A lot of people still buy into the idea that a sexually active woman is, by definition, ugly and undesirable.  And let’s face it—-you can’t really convey the message “you’re unrejectable” by having a woman be sexually available and find takers.  That doesn’t actually mean, as women know, that you’ll go unrejected.  The escape hatch for this trap in your fantasy world is having no sexual agency of your own.  In many romance novels, the sex is based around coercion, if not outright rape.  In “Twilight”, there just isn’t sex.

A lot of erotica for women I’ve read avoids the infantilizing trap, and centers around female characters who know what they want and go get it.  This has the major advantage of having actual sex on the page, but it doesn’t address this apparently profound need to have protagonists that are ciphers, and who live in a world without rejection.  Which is generally fine with me.  Every time I’ve ever picked up a trashy book with a cipher character, I’m turned off within seconds, because my mind really resists the fantasy presented by a cipher character who is perfect-looking and every man desires, etc.  It’s patronizing, and only serves to make me think of myself not as an idiosyncratic person, but a bundle of flaws.  But apparently, that’s a lack of imagination issue with me, because millions of women snatching up these kinds of books clearly disagree.

*Interestingly, I’ve always thought it was interesting the way that there was an explosion of Jane Austen fans in the past couple of decades, and women who joined up felt the need to “justify” their fandom on the basis of having crushes on male characters that I’ve always thought too culturally distant to find attractive.  Mr. Darcy would have been a good husband by 18th century standards, but nowadays, he’d probably be considered an asshole who expects way too much submission.(There’s a reason Austen herself never married.) Is there a possibility that women don’t want to come out and say that they like the books because they’re well-written and witty?  Jane Austen is indisputably one of the Great Geniuses Of Literature, but because of this, she’s always been a threatening figure to insecure men.  Is hiding behind a crush on Mr. Darcy a way to defang Austen, to make being interested in her less threatening to men in your life?  You my scoff, but you’d be surprised how many men are uneasy around women who are better-read than they are.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 10:22 AM • (226) Comments

“Is hiding behind a crush on Mr. Darcy a way to defang Austen, to make being interested in her less threatening to men in your life?”

Perhaps just less threatening, period. By being an infantile, sentimental drip about Austen, you avoid having to think about the text. You get the prestige of reading Austen without the hard (if richly rewarding) work of doing so, and without seeming too smart about it, because intelligence in the US is like having a hideous deformity (h/t F. Zappa). The move to domesticate (neuter?) Austen is well in evidence in all the romantic “sequels” around Darcy, and in trivializations like _Pride & Prejudice & Zombies_.

Comment #1: wapsie  on  11/17  at  11:21 AM

Only on topic for the footnote, but I’ll say it—I love Pride & Prejudice  because it’s well written and witty.  That’s one funny-ass book right there.  And so is Northanger Abbey, but no one else seems to have read it.

Comment #2: rowmyboat  on  11/17  at  11:23 AM

Did you know there’s a P&P;sequel called <Mr Darcy, Vampyre</i>?  Cause there is.

Comment #3: rowmyboat  on  11/17  at  11:24 AM

Oh, I fail at the html.  It is too early in the morning.

Comment #4: rowmyboat  on  11/17  at  11:25 AM

Wapsie, I was with you until the zombies thing.  That was just funny.  We can love great literature without making it sacrosanct.

But agreed that anti-intellectualism is a big factor in this.  It’s just so gendered, which is interesting.  It’s annoying, because feminist-minded scholars have defended Austen’s genius for a long time, only to be undermined by women who personally fear, for whatever reason, being seen as someone who reads Great Literature.

Comment #5: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/17  at  11:28 AM

wapsie: While I agree with you on all the latter-day romantic “sequels” to Austen literature (as well as the popular romanticization of her life a la “Becoming Jane”), I really don’t think Pride and Prejudice and Zombies is an attempt to domesticate, neuter, or do anything particularly nefarious to Austen.  It is an attempt to make a longish and uneven literary running joke whose appeal and taste is far from universal…..that being said, as someone who read and enjoyed Pride and Prejudice many years ago, I found P&P;&Z;to be mostly amusing, and occasionally laugh out loud.

Comment #6: Felix Culpa  on  11/17  at  11:36 AM

As Amanda said, the film & the book (series) Twilight has mass appeal because they appeal to all sorts of female fantasies. I even know a few guys who say it’s a respectable Vampire tale.

The series are an entertaining read & the movie, Twilight, was a pretty good movie too… as long as you do not watch it more than once…because then Edward begins to look like a bonafide stalker…Seriously.

Comment #7: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  11/17  at  11:37 AM

Hepola is skeptical, because none of the women she talked to were romance fans.

Of course not.  If they were romance fans, they would be reading Harlequins - cheaper, more numerous, and making no bones about what they are. 

Same way that most adult fans of Harry Potter probably don’t identify themselves as fantasy fans - if they were, they’d be making a beeline for the fantasy aisle, not indulging the same sensibilities in ubiquitous mainstream fiction.

Comment #8: The Opoponax  on  11/17  at  11:37 AM

Only on topic for the footnote, but I’ll say it—I love Pride & Prejudice because it’s well written and witty.  That’s one funny-ass book right there.  And so is Northanger Abbey, but no one else seems to have read it.

I’ve read Northanger Abbey smile. Although I’d say that Persuasion is my favorite Austen novel. 

I have a love/hate relationship with Pride & Prejudice. Darcy IS a ass, there’s no way around that. Personally, I think that the various movies and miniseries over the past couple of decades have made Darcy less an ass in the public perception, and that’s why so many women have a “crush” on Darcy. Many of the Darcy-lovers I’ve run into use those interpretations as their primary knowledge of/interaction with the P&P;universe.

Comment #9: hp  on  11/17  at  11:40 AM

That, hp, and Darcy gets over his damn self by the end.  Like what everywoman wishes their jerky boyfriend would do, but in real life it won’t happen.  And, Darcy gets played by good-looking actors.

Comment #10: rowmyboat  on  11/17  at  11:45 AM

I posted a pic of an Edward lunch box to my Facebook profile with the caption “forget about bringing lunch ... where can i find a good steak around here?”

My son said the other day: Twilight: because preteen girls don’t get enough indoctrination.  He read the books before they became famous and was somewhat oblivious to the mysogyny.  He isn’t now that he is older, and thoroughly enjoyed the mashup with Buffy staking Edward. 

Most moms I know who have girls his age are sending their daughters clear messages about how wrong therelationships are in this series - and why.

Comment #11: Ms Kate  on  11/17  at  11:46 AM

Re Jane Austen being awesome

One theory I’ve heard kicked around a bit is that part of the Twilight fantasy is its reversal of the “girl=gatekeeper” meme. Bella gets to skip all the “what if we go too far and then he gets weird about it (or turns into a puppy-strangling murderous demon, a la Angel) and then it’ll all be my fault for being reckless/caving to pressure/being a slut” crap and just sit around being openly desirous for three books, because Edward’s taken on the job of wibbling about all the ways in which sex might be a bad idea.

Comment #12: thecynicalromantic  on  11/17  at  11:50 AM

@ Amanda at #5—it’s always struck me that none of the Austenite crowd are ever into any other 19th century British lit, aside from the occasional Bronte fan.  You never see women romanticizing Dickens* or Henry James or even George Eliot in the same way.  They seem to see Austen as proto-chick-lit, not actual literature.

*And Dickens has way more crush-worthy male characters, too—Sidney Carton, be still my heart…

Comment #13: The Opoponax  on  11/17  at  11:54 AM

HaHa Uhura!  I haven’t read the book, but I saw the first movie this past weekend because my friend is going to take his neice to “New Moon” and I was joking the whole time about how Bella needed to get a restraining order against Edward.

Comment #14: kitten parade  on  11/17  at  11:59 AM

Twilight: because preteen girls don’t get enough indoctrination.

And a lot of late twenty-something early to mid thirty-something women as well if my personal experience is any indicator.  My closest female friend, my legal assistant, and an close friend of me and my best friend (ages 28, 35, and 37 respectively) eat it up and even become offended if anyone dares to criticize.

Still, I take comfort in the fact that my 20-year-old sister (also generally a fan of fantasy, sci-fi, and so forth) read Twilight and found it revoltingly stupid. wink

Comment #15: Felix Culpa  on  11/17  at  12:01 PM

“Starts” to look like a bonafide stalker after a re-read?  Isn’t there a scene in one of the books where he dismantles her car so she can’t get away?  That sounds like bonafide abusive/stalker dickhead from just HEARING about it…

Comment #16: The Opoponax  on  11/17  at  12:03 PM

My mom is one of those grown women who love Twilight. At first it boggled my mind a bit, because while she’s not an out feminist, she does have a lot of feminist views. But after talking to her and a number of female friends who are also into Twilight, I finally figured it out.

It’s not just porn for women, it’s not even really so much the Mary Sue fantasy for a sizable number of fans. What it is is:

Bondage Porn.

A BDSM style tale with full deniability and no actual sex so the reader doesn’t even need to fully acknowledge the interest and has full deniability if pressed. But I guarantee that a vast number of the fans of Twilight, especially of the older demographics are into it, precisely because it’s a dangerous tale of a woman teased on the edge of sexual excitement. It’s for people who have interests in kink and bondage play, but feel that admitting it makes them bad girls, dirty sluts, or even bad feminists.

I’m not defending the books, because the misogyny and Mormon propaganda drip off the page and the screen of the movie like no one’s business, but I’m willing to bet a random vital organ that especially among the older Twilight fans, the main appeal of the works is that it’s “safe” bondage porn.

Comment #17: Cerberus  on  11/17  at  12:09 PM

Addendum to my post, this is also the reason that fans will often have the weird dichotomy of not really denying that Edward is abusive while still being fixated and in love with him. They know that such a being in the real world would be the boyfriend from Hell (literally), but in the context of a BDSM scene, it’s tout suite hot.

This is also hinted strongly at in the movie (to which I was dragged to by a friend) where the bedroom scene was just missing the ropes and feathers.

Looking over the whole genre, I think this is also the niche vampire romances are carving. It’s not “bad boy” romance (or porn for girls), it’s bondage porn for women which creates a fantastical scene for them to masturbate to.

Comment #18: Cerberus  on  11/17  at  12:14 PM

AJones, have you ever said anything interesting in your life?  I’m guessing not.  How much it must suck to be you.  No wonder you spend all your time cruising around hating people who aren’t so tedious.

Comment #19: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/17  at  12:21 PM

Also, I don’t think Mr. Darcy is supposed to be an ass, actually.  The title of the book points to what it is—-a comedy of errors.  Elizabeth and Mr. Darcy’s bad opinions of each other are formed by what amounts to an unfortunate circumstance.  They meet each other on a bad day, and the rest of the book is an exploration of how hard it is to get over a bad first impression. 

For modern day Americans, however, it’s hard to see that, because of lot of what we’re supposed to find unremarkable to intriguing about Mr. Darcy, namely his enormous class privilege, is off-putting to us.  And it wrongly colors our belief that Elizabeth’s first impression of Mr. Darcy, namely that he’s an ass, is right.  And thus we think of his move to woo her as a change in character, but I don’t really think it is.  That’s what the whole scene where Elizabeth goes to his house and finds out that Mr. Darcy is good to his servants is about.  We’re meant to see that he was good people all along. 

The only real change either character experiences is a change in their prejudices, and a willingness to let go of a little pride.  i.e., what the title promises.

Comment #20: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/17  at  12:26 PM

I just don’t understand the giant to-do.  People read junk novella all the time.  They also listen to corporate farmed music, watch war porn news, catch badly scripted romance comedies or poorly acted action thrillers, and generally delve into bad media all the time.

I can understand the desire to deconstruct Twilight in the same way I can understand a desire to take apart the latest Britney Spears World Tour.  But, ultimately, I don’t think this is the terrible thing you guys think it is.  My sister went through the Twilight series, cover to cover.  She did the Sookie Stackhouse novels.  She’s currently neck deep in The Historian.  And she generally recognizes them for the pulp fiction that she’s reading.  In fact, she’s actually developed a bit more sophistication in her reading choices, by virtue of the fact that she’s been down the sloppy, boring, one-note wonder that Twilight is.

I’ve read my share of bad sci-fi and fantasy novels too.  I like to think I emerged with more taste than I went in with.  In the end, I’m just glad to see people picking up a book and appreciating good old fashioned writing, rather than just catching everything in theaters.

There are a lot more good books than good movies anyway.  And if you see your mom or your sister or your girlfriend reading trashy pulp fiction, it’s a lot easier to slide her a quality bit of Neil Gaimann or Terry Pratchett when she’s done than it is to get her to pick up a book when she’s adverse to the very idea of reading.  :-p

Comment #21: Zifnab  on  11/17  at  12:27 PM

Only on topic for the footnote, but I’ll say it—I love Pride & Prejudice because it’s well written and witty.  That’s one funny-ass book right there.  And so is Northanger Abbey, but no one else seems to have read it.

I love Austin and Northanger Abbey is one of the best.  Also, Darcy is a huge ass.  Other than the fact that he is played by pretty men in the movies, I really don’t see why anyone would have a crush. 

And back on topic, I love romance novels.  Absolutely one of my favorite genres of fiction and I have no problem admitting to it.  I particularly like historicals and while I like good writing with interesting characters (and there are plenty of authors who are quite good if people would just get over their horror at romance being fantasy literature written for women), I don’t particularly mind the trashy ones either.  They’re just good fun and quick and entertaining read if I have a couple of hours to spare. 

However, even I couldn’t get through Twilight.  It was absolutely awful and I didn’t make it even halfway through the first book.  I can see the appeal to teenagers, and if it had come out when I was 14 or so, I probably would have torn through it and loved it, but I know too many grown women who are way too into it.

Comment #22: ks  on  11/17  at  12:32 PM

I think sometimes people go way too far in their analysis of why some women like Twilight.  I agree that it is basically socially acceptable porn, but it’s not about the monogamy and “romance” for all the women who read it.  I suspect that some women read it just for the sexual metaphors.

Comment #23: bananacat  on  11/17  at  12:35 PM

Yeah, it’s also very much not about the monogamy. The monogamy is the tack on for deniability. The real appeal is two men both slavishly devoted to you (mistress fantasy) and commanding and dangerous and keeping you on the edge of orgasm (sub fantasy). Two masters, two slaves.

Comment #24: Cerberus  on  11/17  at  12:41 PM

On a related note, someone sent this to me a while back re: Twilight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlTtmtAQwfY

Comment #25: Felix Culpa  on  11/17  at  12:44 PM

I’ve got a Rifftrax for Twilight... I suppose I should watch it some day. But before that, a VR jaunt to Pride and Prejudice World.

Comment #26: Sarcastro  on  11/17  at  12:45 PM

Felix, that is hilarious.  Thanks, I needed the laugh.

Comment #27: ks  on  11/17  at  12:47 PM

When did reading the romance become unpopular, or the love that dare not speak its name? I mean hello? Jane Austen, Georgette Heyer, what’s-her-name Roberts who has 60 million of her books on the market. Hell, susan wiggs. Romances remain incredibly and obviously popular. And of course they are “female porn” in the sense that porn is not about sex but about desire, desire that society demands remain publicly unfulfilled.  I mean we’ve known this for-ever.  Romance (s) these days are very much written for women and the main issue is not so much getting the hot sex (though there’s plenty of soft porn to go around) but getting the guy to actually do shit for you on a daily basis and not reject you once you get fat, or have kids.  There’s a whole genre of romance writing that’s incredibly popular—someone is reading this stuff—that doesn’t require vampires or sci fi to make it acceptable—that revolves around strong, working, often post marriage and kids women still having the power to make men obsess about them,f ollow them around, and sacrifice for them.  That’s the love that dare not speak its name—a world in which the men do some of the heavy emotional lifting and kinship work for the women instead of demanding that everything be done for them.**

Roberts famously broke a taboo by writing some of her romances from the man’s point of view. But what is the man’s point of view in her successful books? It turns out that the men want what the women want: after some struggle. They want to be monogamously and fervently united with strong, dynamic, women.  The books serve as a gateway into what is represented as (honestly) male thought patterns and desires while reassuring the reader that, ultimately, though men are different from women they can reliably be found to offer women the same things their women friends and family offer: loyalty, permanence, love. Sometime the guy explicitly offers all the things that fathers, previous husbands, mothers and female aquaintances *don’t* which is unconditional sexy love.

aimai

Comment #28: aimai  on  11/17  at  12:48 PM

You’re welcome ks…I spat out my Diet Coke the first time I saw that. wink

Comment #29: Felix Culpa  on  11/17  at  12:48 PM

In the late 1970s and early 1980s, it was very much the style for romance novels to feature a lot of coercive sex and some outright rape. That’s no longer the case at all, at least in mainstream romance, whether it be category books like Harlequin and Silhouette, or the longer single-title ones by authors like Jayne Ann Krentz, Mary Jo Putney, Jude Deveraux. In one Deveraux novel from the 1990s, a romance-author character recounts being pressured to have the hero of one of her early novels rape the heroine, and bursting into tears saying “if he rapes her, he’s not a hero.” Since Deveraux began writing at the time rape was in style in the genre but always steered clear of those plot lines, one suspects this story was drawn from real life at least in part. Krentz and Putney (major bestsellers who are released in hardcover and not subjected to the bodice ripping covers, but who are definitely romance authors) in particular write historicals in which the heroine is impossibly, for the time period, independent and educated and skilled at something. I’d argue they use these women characters who challenge the gender roles of their time periods to implicitly argue for challenging the gender roles of any period.

On another note, a few years ago I did content analysis of category romance novels and Christian romance novels. In the secular books, the fairly consistent fantasy was that the woman, who was portrayed as basically ordinary—reasonably but not incredibly attractive, employed at something interesting and perhaps entrepreneurial but not super high-powered, not personally wealthy—attracts a man who is outstanding in multiple ways—a wealthy cowboy surgeon with smoldering good looks—and, although he has not believed in true love, he falls in love with her forever. It’s basically a taming plot.  (And one that doesn’t apply in the Christian romances, where the men are also not as personally outstanding, perhaps because simply being a man holds more currency there.) (This analysis was published in Sociological Perspectives, volume 48, number 4.)

Also, I love romance novels. I’ve been reading them for more than a decade. In that time, I’ve encountered few if any as poorly written as the Twilight books are.

Comment #30: Laura Clawson  on  11/17  at  12:50 PM

it’s always struck me that none of the Austenite crowd are ever into any other 19th century British lit, aside from the occasional Bronte fan.  You never see women romanticizing Dickens* or Henry James or even George Eliot in the same way.  They seem to see Austen as proto-chick-lit, not actual literature.

I’m a librarian by day, and I’ve noticed a huge explosion of Austen-as-chick-lit books in the last two or so years. There are the numerous “sequels”, a Jane-as-sleuth mystery series, the afore-mentioned zombies/sea monster series, and even a few alternate reality re-tellings where Elizabeth and Darcy hook up at the beginning of the book and/or have erotic bisexual adventures. As you say, this does not seem to be happening with other period writers.

I’m not sure where that’s coming from. From my own experience, most women I’ve known have been huge Austen fans since reading her in high-school. It may very well be that she was one of the few female writers to be given space in the curriculum and you take what role models you can find at that age. Eventually publishers realized there was a built-in exploitable fan base and just turned her into a new Charlotte Jones (or whoever that was).

I can’t say as I ever saw the appeal. I don’t know if I’m being biased as a male, or if it’s just because I’ve never read any literature from that period that wasn’t stiflingly airless. I’d rather let rabid weasels chew off my pubes than ever read Dickens again. But then I have very little patience for tedious stories about people unable or unwilling to confront or rise above that era’s class issues. I realise it was outside of their worldview at the time, but reading them now just makes me think of Roger Ebert’s description of “idiot plot” movies, where the whole situation could be resolved in five minutes if the people involved weren’t idiots and just explained themselves.

Comment #31: Egnu Cledge  on  11/17  at  12:52 PM

I think it also has to do with the teenagerization of everything, and the strong desire for baby boomer parents to be their teen’s best friend and dress like a teen and be teen like again. Nobody I see it happening with some older parents of kids in my sons’ school and at the neighboring high school.

Yuck.  Then again, us Gen-X folk have been sneering about what the idiot wing of the baby boom has been up to for 40 years ... why stop now?

Comment #32: Ms Kate  on  11/17  at  12:56 PM

But, ultimately, I don’t think this is the terrible thing you guys think it is.  My sister went through the Twilight series, cover to cover.  She did the Sookie Stackhouse novels.  She’s currently neck deep in The Historian.  And she generally recognizes them for the pulp fiction that she’s reading.

I think the reason that deconstructing the Twilight Moms phenomenon is such a tempting itch to scratch is that they’re not just “full-grown women who read and enjoyed Twilight”.  They’re all-out obsessive fangirls.  And it’s interesting to talk about why exactly that is. 

I know my fair share of women who read and enjoyed Twilight just like they read and enjoyed The Notebook, or The Time Traveler’s Wife, or the Sookie Stackhouse novels, or whatever other pop literary crap you can come up with.  That is a totally different thing from what were ultimately talking about here.

It’s kind of like the difference between dissecting Beatlemania and freaking out because ZOMG Teh Nice White Girls Like Rock & Roll!

Comment #33: The Opoponax  on  11/17  at  12:56 PM

I love Austin and Northanger Abbey is one of the best.  Also, Darcy is a huge ass.  Other than the fact that he is played by pretty men in the movies, I really don’t see why anyone would have a crush.

Every woman I know who claims to have a huge crush on Darcy will admit that they really just have a huge crush on Darcy as played by whoever it was in the BBC movie (Colin Firth, maybe?). If Darcy had been portrayed by, say, Shane MacGowan, I doubt we’d see theis phenomenon.

Comment #34: Egnu Cledge  on  11/17  at  12:58 PM

Egnu, one of Dickens’ major themes was that poor people weren’t bad people but were simply STUCK people.  Your annoyance is prototypicaly American Myth based - the idea that an individual could confront, challenge, and overcome their misery wasn’t possible in England and, really, barely possible in the US. 

Dickens was pointing that out to a literate audience that was interested in DOING SOMETHING using their privilege ... because they were the ones who COULD do something.

Comment #35: Ms Kate  on  11/17  at  01:00 PM

When did reading the romance become unpopular, or the love that dare not speak its name?

Pretty much as soon as snotty lit majors could decide that the genre is so lame that even Twilight readers wouldn’t stoop so low as to read a romance novel.

You know why Twilight readers aren’t romance readers?  Because, believe it or not, it’s not 1982 anymore and romance novels that involve the hero raping the heroine are no longer popular.  In fact, it’s far more likely that the heroine will be a rape survivor and the hero helps her cope with it.  Romance readers—like myself—pick up Twilight, say, “Eeew, that’s just creepy,” and go read a good romance instead.

Seriously, Amanda, if you’re going to say things like, “In many romance novels, the sex is based around coercion, if not outright rape,” please tell us which romance novels you read to come to that conclusion.  Was it by Mary Jo Putney?  Lisa Kleypas?  Nora Roberts?  Amanda Quick?  Candace Camp?  Jo Beverley?  Elizabeth Lowell?  Was it at least something that was published after the year 2000?  You can’t read a Rosemary Rogers from 1972 and declare that’s the current state of the genre.

Comment #36: Mnemosyne  on  11/17  at  01:01 PM

I don’t know if I’m being biased as a male, or if it’s just because I’ve never read any literature from that period that wasn’t stiflingly airless. I’d rather let rabid weasels chew off my pubes than ever read Dickens again.

I don’t think you’re being biased as male, specifically, and in fact this kind of underscores my point.  I like Jane Austen in pretty much the same way I like other canonical 19th century literature.  Which is approximately “sometimes I develop a hankering for that sort of thing”.  You can like or hate or have any opinion you want of that sort of thing - it only gets weird when you obsess over Austen stuff but wouldn’t touch Flaubert or Thackeray with a ten foot pole.

Comment #37: The Opoponax  on  11/17  at  01:09 PM

Amanda, I hate to be off-topic, but whenever your posts have a link with double-quotes in the text, the HTML ends up broken because that link text gets included in the link’s title attribute. See here for what I end up seeing:
http://syndicated.livejournal.com/pandagon_net/3784043.html

Is there some setting in your posting tool that could be changed so that the link text doesn’t get put into the title attribute?

Again, sorry for the off-topic comment!

Comment #38: Rob Funk  on  11/17  at  01:09 PM

Egnu Cledge, just wanted you to know you have company re Austen: I’m female and I’m with you.  I am willing to say I’m probably wrong: most people I respect are huge Janeites.  Shirley Jackson, for instance, who I think was a genius, made it a point to reread all six novels every year.

Comment #39: Unree  on  11/17  at  01:09 PM

Seriously, Amanda, if you’re going to say things like, “In many romance novels, the sex is based around coercion, if not outright rape,” please tell us which romance novels you read to come to that conclusion.  Was it by Mary Jo Putney?  Lisa Kleypas?  Nora Roberts?  Amanda Quick?  Candace Camp?  Jo Beverley?  Elizabeth Lowell?  Was it at least something that was published after the year 2000?  You can’t read a Rosemary Rogers from 1972 and declare that’s the current state of the genre.

Thank you Mnem.  That’s one of the memes about romance that always annoys me.

Comment #40: ks  on  11/17  at  01:12 PM

My wife is a reader of the romance novels, particularly the vampire genre (the adult kind, even though she has read the Twilight books at the urging of our niece) which she refers to as her “vampire porn”.

Apparently, in these books, when you become a vampire, you become very well endowed and are blessed with super sexual powers. Sadly, I have not become a vampire…yet.  wink

Comment #41: Mark  on  11/17  at  01:13 PM

Sorry, Mnem.  I guess it makes me a snot that I don’t read romance novels.  I won’t be starting to prove my populist bona fides, I’m afraid.  Not enough hours in the day. 

Apologies for my mistake.  If romance novels aren’t as rape-happy as they used to be, that helps explain Twilight’s success, I’d say.  Filling the gap for women who want some coercion in their fantasies.

Comment #42: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/17  at  01:24 PM

I’m suprised that there’s any doubt that Twilight is a romance novel. It is. A bad one. It’s the time honored girl meets boy, girl falls for boy, boy admits that he’s fallen for girl, random crime/violence plot where boy saves girl (in the better class of modern romance novel the girl generally has a hand in saving herself or her boy), the end. Without the sex scenes. It’s also, by the way, a bad vampire novel (Vampires DO NOT SPARKLE!).

However, I’m not entirely sure why being a romance fan “really crosses a line of socially acceptability.” I realize that some people downplay their love of romance novels because it’s considered a bit silly, but I know plenty of people have no shame about their romance addiction (I sure don’t). And since romance is the number 1 genre being sold in America, I have a hard time believing that my experience is out of touch. And these days Paranormal Romance (romance with Vampires and Werewolves and Witches) is the number 1 subgenre of romance, so Twilight fits right into the prevailing zeitgeist.

Comment #43: rivki  on  11/17  at  01:26 PM

I will say I got the impression from the few I did read back in junior high school, because my friends were reading them.  Eventually, I realized they all have the same plot and quit.  I already had books that I liked better to reread over and over again.

Comment #44: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/17  at  01:27 PM

I even know a few guys who say it’s a respectable Vampire tale.

You’re kidding.  Twilight-vamps have all the advantages of traditional vamps with none of the drawbacks.  They’re Highlander immortals with super powers and some unusual dietary needs.  And sparkles.  The first book spends a lot of pages on how awesome vampires are.

Even if you don’t mind vampires being played that way (the sparkles!  Stop the sparkles!), the antagonists don’t show up until the last third of the book, and the climactic battle takes place offstage - literary coitus interruptus.

Comment #45: Seraph  on  11/17  at  01:31 PM

rivki, I perceive a huge gap in the respectability of romance and porn, one that I ascribe strictly to sexism.  People may read romance novels but they feel embarrassed about it, and certainly wouldn’t consider using the “prude” gambit to insist that men read and enjoy romance novels.  But male-centered porn has a social esteem that makes women feel guilty if they don’t like it.

Comment #46: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/17  at  01:31 PM

It seems interesting to me that so much about this storyline is about the idea of time. I haven’t read any of this, but I gather that one of the main points of the sorta-kinda plot is her attempts to get the vampire to make her a vampire. (Who will then hand her a Book of Mormon and bring her to Utah.) So, underlying this story is the concept of when is the ideal time to freeze yourself as a female. High school? College? Presumably, the audience feels there’s a cut-off point.

Essentially, the story is about a girl asking a by-definition much older man to define the state at which she is most desirable, and keep her there forever.

Comment #47: joshuarupp  on  11/17  at  01:32 PM

I can’t be the only recovering Mormon who found it hysterically funny that the actor cast to play the Cullen “family” patriarch in the Twilight film looked so much like Joseph Smith.

Comment #48: Menshevixen  on  11/17  at  01:35 PM

I will say I got the impression from the few I did read back in junior high school, because my friends were reading them.  Eventually, I realized they all have the same plot and quit.  I already had books that I liked better to reread over and over again.

The way I see it, there are two “classes” of romance novel. The first is the pulp paperback that gets passed around in high school.  I always found those both hilarious and disturbing.

The second “class” is a lot better written, more plot, more character development.  They’re not bad, but they’re not my interest. They’re on the same general level of readability as my personal interest though, which is various sf/fantasy/mystery novel series.

Comment #49: hp  on  11/17  at  01:40 PM

People may read romance novels but they feel embarrassed about it, and certainly wouldn’t consider using the “prude” gambit to insist that men read and enjoy romance novels.  But male-centered porn has a social esteem that makes women feel guilty if they don’t like it.

Interesting, I hadn’t ever thought of that. My friends and I have no shame about reading romance novels, then again, we don’t have a lot of shame in general. But I would never have thought to push men to read romance novels (nor have I ever been pushed to watch porn). Clearly this is an area where my personal experience is not the prevailing one.

But, just as a point of interest, romance novels have changed a lot since the 80s.  Most authors have given up rape or stupid misunderstanding to further the plot.  They’ve substituted crime or paranormal plots in order to have conflict without making you hate either of the protaganists.  Although people will deny it (and this probably relates to the social disapproval of romance novels that you speak of) the romance genre really has begun to encroach on mystery and sci fi, as the plots are taken from other genres and the characters (and female centered sex scenes) are really the only things that stick out as Romance.

Comment #50: rivki  on  11/17  at  01:45 PM

I’m sure more women than not have had the ugly experience of being coupled with an immature man who blows hot and then cold, who makes you feel desired, and then dumps on you because he fears that treating you with respect will emasculate him.

Most men have had similar experiences too.  Men aren’t the only gender who can be immature, volatile and passive-aggressive.

Comment #51: DAS  on  11/17  at  01:51 PM

Egnu, one of Dickens’ major themes was that poor people weren’t bad people but were simply STUCK people.  Your annoyance is prototypicaly American Myth based - the idea that an individual could confront, challenge, and overcome their misery wasn’t possible in England and, really, barely possible in the US.

Oh, I realise that. That’s why I said that it was my modern reaction to another era’s assumptions that ruined them for me. I can’t very well fault 19th century authors for reflecting 19th century themes, situations and values. I just don’t have the patience to slog through it. A lot of it is being unable to connect with pre-modern writing styles. It wouldn’t have mattered if Dickens had written A Room of One’s Own or The Feminine Mystique, because I simply hate, hate, hate his style.

Comment #52: Egnu Cledge  on  11/17  at  01:51 PM

So I take it that you are not a Melville scholar?

Comment #53: Ms Kate  on  11/17  at  01:55 PM

“[N]one of the women she talked with were [self-identified] romance fans”.

Well, of course not.  Just as none of the men who read _Maxim_ self-identify as pornography fans, and none of the people who praise _Secretary_ self-identify as sadomasochists.

Comment #54: Dr. Psycho  on  11/17  at  01:57 PM

Twilight-vamps have all the advantages of traditional vamps with none of the drawbacks.  They’re Highlander immortals with super powers and some unusual dietary needs.  And sparkles.  The first book spends a lot of pages on how awesome vampires are.

Exactly, Seraph.  I tried to read “Twilight”, but logic kept getting in my way.  Like, if vampirism is a big secret, then why send the Cullen kids to public high school, where there’s a huge chance they’ll be caught sparkling or refraining from eating?  (For that matter, why go to high school over and over again?*)  Shouldn’t they be working to support their lavish lifestyle?  And if they’re so powerful, why haven’t they taken over the world and reduced regular humans to their slaves?#

*Admittedly, I HATED high school and wouldn’t go back for a million dollars cash.

#I know, I know…because they’re supercool and awesome and would never, ever, even THINK of such a thing.

Comment #55: Blue Jean  on  11/17  at  01:59 PM

rivki, at #44,

“Vampires do not sparkle”—I assume you know this from personal experience?

I am happy to say that I have never been close enough to a vampire to know whether they sparkle or not.

Comment #56: Older  on  11/17  at  01:59 PM

But, just as a point of interest, romance novels have changed a lot since the 80s.  Most authors have given up rape or stupid misunderstanding to further the plot.  They’ve substituted crime or paranormal plots in order to have conflict without making you hate either of the protaganists.  Although people will deny it (and this probably relates to the social disapproval of romance novels that you speak of) the romance genre really has begun to encroach on mystery and sci fi, as the plots are taken from other genres and the characters (and female centered sex scenes) are really the only things that stick out as Romance.

My exposure to romance novels was mainly through my Mom and sister, back in the 80’s and early 90’s. They liked the “Highland Romance” genre where some Scottish lord kidnaps a headstrong woman who semi-tames him and blah, blah, blah. And nealry every sex scene was coercive, to say the least. I admit that was my lasting impression of Romance novels. I’m very glad if that has changed.

Again, as a librarian, I can confirm that the paranormal romance genre definitely seems to be poised to take over the field, if it hasn’t already. I’ve even been trying out the more forthrightly erotic romance novels and they seem to have been very popular, even though I work in a very conservative area. A lot of them seem to have disturbingly used BDSM tropes to revive the rape scenes, but plenty of them are just “regular” explicit sex.  Perhaps not surprisingly, the only complaint we’ve gotten was about the mainstream romance novel that was about a gay couple.

Comment #57: Egnu Cledge  on  11/17  at  02:06 PM

To me the best take on the books popularity came from this section of Miller’s review; basically the series is wish fullfillment not just of the fantasy of perfect unrejecting love but of a perfect lifestyle to go with it-plain, shy, awkward girl is the beloved of someone gorgous, rich, and accomplished, with a fabulous family who welcome her to their world of money, beauty, and immortality.  In Miller’s words….


“The YA angle on vampires, evident in the Twilight books and in many other popular series as well, is that they’re high school’s aristocracy, the coolest kids on campus, the clique that everyone wants to get into. Many women apparently never get over the allure of such groups; as one reader posted on Twilight Moms, “Twilight makes me feel like there may be a world where a perfect man does exist, where love can overcome anything, where men will fight for the women they love no matter what, where the underdog strange girl in high school with an amazing heart can snag the best guy in the school, and where we can live forever with the person we love,” a mix of adolescent social aspirations with what are ostensibly adult longings.

The “underdog strange girl” who gets plucked from obscurity by “the best guy in school” is the 21st century’s version of the humble governess who captures the heart of the lord of the manor. The chief point of this story is that the couple aren’t equals, that his love rescues her from herself by elevating her to a class she could not otherwise join. Unlike Buffy, Bella is no hero. “There are so many girls out there who do not know kung fu, and if a guy jumps in the alley they’re not going to turn around with a roundhouse kick,” Meyer once told a journalist. “There’s a lot of people who are just quieter and aren’t having the Prada lifestyle and going to a special school in New York where everyone’s rich and fabulous. There’s normal people out there and I think that’s one of the reasons Bella has become so popular.”

Yet the Cullens, although they don’t live in New York, are rich and fabulous. Twilight would be a lot more persuasive as an argument that an “amazing heart” counts for more than appearances if it didn’t harp so incessantly on Edward’s superficial splendors. If the series is supposed to be championing the worth of “normal” people, then why make Edward so exceptional? If his wealth, status, strength, beauty and accomplishments make him the “best” among all the boys at school, why shouldn’t the same standard be applied to the girls, leaving Bella by the wayside? Sometimes Edward seems to subscribe to that standard, complaining about having to read the thoughts of one of Bella’s classmates because “her mind isn’t very original.” But then, neither is Bella’s. In a sense, Bella is absolutely right: She’s not “good enough” for Edward—at least, not according to the same measurements that make Edward “perfect.” Yet by some miracle she—unremarkable in every way—is exempt from his customary contempt for the ordinary. Then again, by choosing her he proves that she’s better than all the average people at school. “

This is the Nice Girl version of the Nice Guy meme that “obviously I deserve a Natalie Portman clone.”  This is why Twilight vampires have no downside to their condition.  They aren’t allergic to sunlight-they sparkle!  Bella doesn’t even become estranged from her family by becoming a vampire like the other Cullens. She still gets to have a baby.  When reading the series out of curiosity I was compelled by the supporting characters; Alice the prohet left in a mental asylum and awakening as a vampire with no memory of a mortal life-apparently an early victim of the sadistic James, Rosalie attacked and left to die coming back and destroying her killers in a wedding dress but never having the motherhood she longed for, Esme who fled an abusive marriage had a baby die and jumped off a cliff become the “mother” of a vampire clan, Jasper’s 100 years of war,  etc. but it was as if Meyers didn’t want to focus too much on these stories because these fascinating tales were far too dark to be a perfect tale of wish fulfillment even if they did get “happy” endings.  Here was a author who completely skipped over good opportunities-like the opportunity for an all out war between werewolves and vampires or the chance in New Moon after Edward leaves and Bella is devastated for Bella to try to figure out who she is without Edward and show the danger of sublimating your self too much to anyone else even your soulmate. Bella turning adrenaline junkie side was good-but Meyers again had to make it only be so Bella could see Edward.  Becoming a vampire becomes a way for Bella to have identity bestowed on her without trying to figure it out herself the way the rest of us struggle to do and that is the ultimate wish fulfillment indeed.

Comment #58: winnie  on  11/17  at  02:07 PM

You know, I wonder how much of it is the romance aspect, and how much is just that people (especially women) want to live in a world that’s sparkly and magical. Harry Potter books were startlingly popular with grown women as well.

Comment #59: HonestB  on  11/17  at  02:09 PM

Every woman I know who claims to have a huge crush on Darcy will admit that they really just have a huge crush on Darcy as played by whoever it was in the BBC movie (Colin Firth, maybe?).

It was Colin Firth in the BBC movie.  And true, it is a lot easier to crucs on movie-Darcy than book-Darcy.  For one thing, the book is a lot less about Darcy.  In the movie you get to drool over how pretty he is when he takes a bath or jumps in a pond, and what a dashing figure he makes on horseback.  In the book, Darcy rides a horse, or shoots a pheasant, or does/doesn’t dance, or writes a letter to someone.  You are left with only appreciating the writing.

Comment #60: rowmyboat  on  11/17  at  02:10 PM

So I take it that you are not a Melville scholar?

The whole period reads as if some sort of proto-Burroughs took a weed-whacker to the OED and was determined to use all the pieces. C’mon, Dickens was being paid by the word. That’s not going to lead to the most stringent editing. I don’t mean to be dismissive of anyone who likes that. I have actually read these authors before deciding I can’t stand them.

Comment #61: Egnu Cledge  on  11/17  at  02:12 PM

On the chastity thing, I think you need to keep in mind that this isn’t a book about adults, directed at adult readers.  It’s a book about teenagers, directed at teenagers and tweeners.  The chastity angle isn’t disturbing, in the sense that the author chose it.  That’s a bit like complaining that the Goosebumps books by R.L. Stine aren’t sufficiently dark and violent.  It’s supposed to be something parents would let their 12 year old daughter read.  If you’re going to be disturbed by it, that should be directed at the adult readers who find it compelling.

My wife has read the books.  She’s not an all out fan, like her sister is, or like the women she works with who are all going to see the new movie at midnight on Thursday.  She says it’s terribly written, and the dialogue is retardedly simple.  But it’s easy to read, and its compelling in the same way The Hills is compelling.

Comment #62: Wallace  on  11/17  at  02:14 PM

The escape hatch for this trap in your fantasy world is having no sexual agency of your own.

Interesting how the fantasy re-enforces the reality of sexual agency and gender roles in heterosexual dating: the fantasy of porn is that men keep their sexual agency but don’t have to worry about rejection.  OTOH, the fantasy of certain romance novels is that the hunky guy magically knows to whisk away the woman who secretly pines for him without the woman having to gain agency to pursue the guy (and thus face rejection is her pursuits are rebuffed).

Comment #63: DAS  on  11/17  at  02:18 PM

Yes….Edward taking a vital part of her car out & even enlisting family members to make sure Bella doesn’t go see Wolf Boy: Twas mighty creepy….but I was reading very very quickly…it while on travel for work &... while drinking free wine.

There are very mysogynistic elements in the tales / movie… but they are wrapped up in very seductive fantasies that many females entertain - even if @ a subconscious level…

Why would this appeal to feminists?

See the subconscious remark above + When it comes to certain things, you can evolve mentally but you will still have mental remnants… like shards of dirty glass.. as a result of years of social conditioning. :(

I consider myself to be a feminist…maybe not an A+ one… but at least a medium to strong B.

Yet - I liked the movie a lot and I even purchased it. The thing is, I watched it once again and I actually got disgusted. The third time I popped it in for a visiting relative, and I was like WHY THE HELL DID I SPEND $9.99 ON THIS CRAP?! It’s the opposite of my reaction to Starship Troopers which only seems to get better each time I view it. LOL!

Still, I’ll be seeing New Moon. Am I a bad person?

Comment #64: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  11/17  at  02:19 PM

#I know, I know…because they’re supercool and awesome and would never, ever, even THINK of such a thing.

Well, the Cullens are like that.  I never really got a good explanation as to why the more predatory vampires didn’t.  I think it may be something about vampires being territorial predators and unable to work together in large groups - the Cullen “family” being the one of the largest packs around. 

Still, that doesn’t explain why they’re hiding.  Take away the vulnerability to sunlight or the need to sleep during the day, and humans lose their only advantage.  A sparklepire would be difficult for modern military forces to deal with.  Back in the day when war meant running up to people and hitting them with things, each individual vampire could have had its own empire/herd where it ruled as a sparkly god.

Comment #65: Seraph  on  11/17  at  02:23 PM

On the chastity thing, I think you need to keep in mind that this isn’t a book about adults, directed at adult readers.  It’s a book about teenagers, directed at teenagers and tweeners.  The chastity angle isn’t disturbing, in the sense that the author chose it.

That’s a good point, except that the chastity angle is apparently so predominant. It’s not a book for tweens that doesn’t have sex (though it does in later episodes), it’s a book about not having sex….with a character that has been a sexual cipher for over a century. It fetishizes chastity.

Comment #66: Egnu Cledge  on  11/17  at  02:25 PM

I am completely gobsmacked that ANYONE completely hates 19th century literature. What?

I thought people just didn’t like to READ, because they have too much energy to sit still that long, or an inability to concentrate. Clearly, I live in a bubble inhabited only by myself.

I think it is perplexing that Egnu thinks that changing your economic class in Modern America is oh so doable…..aren’t we LESS economically class-mobile NOW than…well that practically any other country, including America in the Past? Oh, wait, it’s true, we are still TOLD and generally BELIEVE that we are class-mobile. We just think that each and every one of us is a personal failure, because there are the usual number of outliers.

Isn’t it depressing that the same old shit, that POOR PEOPLE are BAD PEOPLE is still a dominant meme? I think America of Today vilifies Poor People far more than it did in my youth, in the 70’s. Oh GOD does it ever.

Younger People on this thread: Did you know that around 1970, it was considered totally uncool to be RICH? Everyone dressed in the clothes of the Working classes (blue jeans) to show SOLIDARITY with the poor. ON PURPOSE.

It kind of blows MY mind a little, when I remember.

Comment #67: KMTBERRY  on  11/17  at  02:30 PM

DAS, I’m sure, but it’s fascinating to me that male fantasies of acceptance lean towards graphically sexual, whereas female fantasies are ones where someone actually thinks you’re awesome regardless of whether or not they’re currently trying to achieve orgasm inside your body.

Comment #68: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/17  at  02:30 PM

and none of the people who praise _Secretary_ self-identify as sadomasochists.

Dude, what? Every BDSM-themed forum or mail list I’ve come across contains at least one discussion on Secretary and how awesome it is. You obviously don’t know very many sadomasochists.

Comment #69: kristin  on  11/17  at  02:30 PM

Also ... the chastity angle only works up to a certain point, at which point Edward has sex with her after their wedding that she passes out from pain and wakes up bruised and sore and impregnated with a demonic baby that will kill her but OMG THIS IS A LOVE-DEMON-BABY THAT SHE WOULD BE A MONSTER NOT TO KEEP.

There is no way in hell I would want my 12-year-old daughter reading that shite. Not only because a) it fetishizes chastity (as Egnu pointed out), but also because b) they remain chaste up until he rapes her and c) it reinforces that having a difficult/dangerous pregnancy is just another way for a woman to show how pure/good/loving she is by not having a selfish abortion.

Shite. Absolute woman-hating shite.

Comment #70: Mighty Ponygirl  on  11/17  at  02:31 PM

I still say Emo Edward needs to go 3 rounds with Deacon Frost.  Or at least have a sempai-kohai chat about being a proper vampire.

Also:

one of them is only able to escape his obsession by falling in love with Bella’s infant daughter.

WTF?

I’m becoming more and more convinced that the Buffalo Beast 50 had Stephenie Meyer pegged.  The rest of our idiot media seems to think she’s the first woman to write anything resembling horror, as if no one ever heard of Anne Rice or Mary Shelley.

Comment #71: Sour Kraut  on  11/17  at  02:34 PM

attracts a man who is outstanding in multiple ways—a wealthy cowboy surgeon with smoldering good looks—and, although he has not believed in true love, he falls in love with her forever.

My wife now makes a point of informing me what the main male character of the latest book she’s reading is omni-competent in: “Oh, this one is a champion skydiving Russian bodyguard who’s former Spetznaz and plays in a rock band”, or “Marine biologist and part-time Coast Guard rescue diver who male-modeled in college”.

Comment #72: KeithM  on  11/17  at  02:35 PM

It’s a different fantasy altogether: the fantasy of being completely desired, with no objections and no real obstacles.

I think you might be onto something.  This ties into the Darcy and Heathcliff worship, too.  To many modern readers, Darcy comes off as a jerk—actually, the narrator herself describes him as haughty—despite his fabulous wealth, his good looks, and his intellect.  He starts out belittling our beloved heroine, but by the end, not only has he humbled himself, but he has changed his manners and some of his thinking for her, for love.

(Okay, no, not really.  He changed for pride, because he didn’t like the contrast between how he saw himself and how his beloved saw him—he made these changes before he ever thought of seeing Elizabeth again.  And, well, his major flaws were stiff manners and looking down on people not of his station—something not uncommon for someone like Mr. Darcy in his time.  But people read things how they want to read them.)

Twilight, though, is a lot closer the Wuthering Heights, where the fantasy is the complete absorption of the self into love.  The fact that both heroes are controlling stalkers is almost beside the point.  It’s the fantasy of having someone love you so much that they’d dedicate their life to revenge if you spurned them, of the all-absorbing love of a dangerous man.  That any of Heathcliff’s or Edward’s behaviors would be extremely creepy if experienced in real life—I mean, he takes apart her car engine!  He hangs her SIL’s dog!—might appeal to a certain sort of person who longs for that sort of all-consuming passion.  Of course, Emily Bronte is much more realistic in her portrayal—that sort of thing cannot end well.  Which, isn’t that the point of that type of fantasy?  That everything all burns up in the ferocity of the passion?  Anyway, yet another reason why SMeyer fails—she takes what should be a dark fantasy and decides to turn it into sparkles and creepy, Mormon happy endings.

Comment #73: Karinna A.  on  11/17  at  02:35 PM

Egnu Cledge:

I’m glad somebody is brave enough to admit that actually reading Dickens is an exercise in painful tedium.

Comment #74: Magis  on  11/17  at  02:36 PM

...porn is all about a world where women are always up for it, with you (or the actor standing in as your cipher), and you’re facing a cornucopia of women who always, without fail, say yes.

That also describes the novels of Philip Roth and the late John Updike.

Comment #75: Bitter Scribe  on  11/17  at  02:36 PM

Isn’t it depressing that the same old shit, that POOR PEOPLE are BAD PEOPLE is still a dominant meme? I think America of Today vilifies Poor People far more than it did in my youth, in the 70’s. Oh GOD does it ever.

That’s Reagan for you.  The whole black welfare queens driving Cadillac and all.  We, as a country, started hating on poor folks so much, when certain shit-bag politicians started trying to convince us that brown people were stealing all the white people’s hard earned money through taxes and welfare.

Comment #76: rowmyboat  on  11/17  at  02:36 PM

  ...porn is all about a world where women are always up for it, with you (or the actor standing in as your cipher), and you’re facing a cornucopia of women who always, without fail, say yes.

That also describes the novels of Philip Roth and the late John Updike.


Does anyone else really hate Updike’s novels?  I had to read one in high school, and it was the most god-awful of all high school reading.  And the above is definitely a large part of why.  You’d have to pay me to read another.

Comment #77: rowmyboat  on  11/17  at  02:38 PM

KMTBERRY,

I think you’re reading way more into my posts than what’s there. I never meant to imply that class issues have been solved or that we live in a utopia. The situation of the working poor is in many ways the same today as it was in the 19th century. I certainly don’t think poor people are “bad” or responsible for their situation. I just find that period’s literature frustrating. Getting involved in a story where some poor woman is ground down and discarded because of appearances (that everyone knows aren’t true but refuse to address, a la House of Mirth) just leaves me annoyed and enraged. Granted, that’s simply the mark of an effective book, but after a while it feels tiresome to fight another century’s battles when there are still so many to be fought now. It’s my own personal literature preference. That’s all. As I say, it’s the deathless style of so much of the writing that really turns me off.

Comment #78: Egnu Cledge  on  11/17  at  02:41 PM

Also, unless Gloria Vanderbilt and Calvin Klein were secret agents of the proletariat, I think you’re wrong about the cultural significance of blue jeans.

Comment #79: Egnu Cledge  on  11/17  at  02:42 PM

“Secretary” actually aspires to be real literature, and thus has appeal outside of wish fulfillment fantasies.  I don’t get off on BDSM, but I liked that story.  It was interesting.  The writer Mary Gaitskill has an interesting take on the human condition, etc.

Comment #80: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/17  at  02:47 PM

“It’s a book about teenagers, directed at teenagers and tweeners.  The chastity angle isn’t disturbing, in the sense that the author chose it.”


Except for the fact that the chastity thing is just part of a series of fundamentalist leanings in the novels.

[Spoiler alert!]

They wait until marriage to have sex, and Bella is conveniently impregnated just after the one time.  Bella chooses to keep a baby that will definitely kill her rather than abort it.  Jacob imprints on her infant daughter—or if you will, has a “revelation” that they are to be wed one day.

Look, I believe that Stephanie Meyer has every right to put whatever religious propaganda she wants in her novels.  But I have just as much right to find it revolting that young girls are reading these books and finding a violent stalker romantic.

And about the RL Stine and dark violence angle—in the last book they literally EAT the baby out of Bella’s body.  If that isn’t over the top for a kid’s book, I don’t know what is.

Comment #81: Blitzgal  on  11/17  at  02:50 PM

And about the RL Stine and dark violence angle—in the last book they literally EAT the baby out of Bella’s body.  If that isn’t over the top for a kid’s book, I don’t know what is.

I am definitely going to go see the final movie, just for this scene.

Comment #82: Gavel Down  on  11/17  at  02:52 PM

You know, I wonder how much of it is the romance aspect, and how much is just that people (especially women) want to live in a world that’s sparkly and magical. Harry Potter books were startlingly popular with grown women as well.

Yeah.  It’s not a woman thing, it’s a human thing.  The literary definition of romance is: stories that relate an improbable adventure, concerning idealized or exaggerated characters, often in idealized, remote, or exaggerated settings.  These stories sometimes contain elements of magic, the supernatural, or folklore. In other words, not realism (though there’s overlap to be found, of course). Fantasy, SF, westerns, anime, graphic novels, comics, porn, James Bond, myth, folklore, video or role-playing games, etc fall under the header of Romance.  People like their sparkly, idealized, heroic, improbable characters and realms. Always have, always will.  They’ve just been programmed to seek it out in separate “acceptable” spaces according to demo.  Funny how the larger definition of “romance” has (beginning in the 18C) shrunk down to refer only to what women seem to consume.

Comment #83: Ranylt  on  11/17  at  02:53 PM

rowmyboat: Would you mind telling me which one of Updike’s novels they made you read? I’m curious because I never thought of his stuff as high-school material.

Comment #84: Bitter Scribe  on  11/17  at  02:58 PM

I consider myself to be a feminist…maybe not an A+ one… but at least a medium to strong B.

Just to be clear, I’m not at all attacking your feminist cred by pointing out that some aspects of Edward seem fucked up and stalkerish - we all like stuff that isn’t the absolute most politically correctest feministest in the world.  There is, after all, something to be said for escapist entertainment.  I went home last night, turned on Dancing With The Stars, and crowed about how pretty and dainty and graceful Kelley Osborne has grown up to be.  If someone wants to take away my feminist card for that, go right ahead.

Comment #85: The Opoponax  on  11/17  at  03:04 PM

Re: Austen, I think that a lot of the romanticization (word? Meh. It is now) of her work stems from readers just not knowing a lot about her. From all reports, she had a lot of disdain for and mistrust of traditional concepts of romance and had decided never to marry, and a lot of her books tended more to social commentary than anything else. In Pride and Prejudice, for instance, we have the cousin who’s going to inherit the estate after the father dies, even though there will be six surviving women depending on it; the “plain” 27-year-old who ends up having to marry said cousin as a last resort; and the asshole Darcy who falls in love with Elizabeth against his better judgment because of her social stature and her “coarse” family - and who ultimately condescends to marrying her, saving her and her family from the perils of poverty in early nineteenth-century England. Not to mention the idea that Darcy, as a manly man of good raising, can get away with being an abrasive asshole while Elizabeth apparently needs to be taken down a peg on a regular basis.

Of course, there’s something to be said for the author being dead, and all that, and you get out of a book what you put into it, so I guess the romantic read on it is just as accurate as any other. I just hate the “please oh please sweep in and save me, rich studly man” narrative.

I think part of the appeal of Twilight is that it fits so well with the abstinence/chastity approach that’s being pushed on girls these days. They’re told to avoid sex not because they aren’t mature enough to approach it rationally, not because there are health concerns that should be addressed first, but because Jesus wants it and men will think you’re hotter. It’s the Catholic schoolgirl thing and tight, glittery, low-cut “True Love Waits” tank tops. Here’s Bella, as mentioned, pursued mindlessly by two different guys (which I don’t understand, because she seems obnoxious, but whatever) and never giving it up. And, in fact, when she does finally, give it up, within the confines of marriage, the fans go nuts and tell Meyer that she’s ruined the whole thing.

Comment #86: ACG  on  11/17  at  03:06 PM

I read a lot of romance. I write and sell a lot of romance.
I read and write a lot of horror. Sometimes, I even write Erotic Horror.

Twilight is not good romance. It is not good horror. It is not even good writing. I was ready to slap Meyers by the end of the first paragraph (Weather is not inherently dramatic! Don’t start a book with it!)  and Bella by the end of the first chapter. At 15-16, I would have eaten it with a spoon.

My mother, who LOVED the Left Behind series, thought Twilight was weird and sucky (and not in the sexy vamp way).
My oldest daughter who likes Austen and who reads widely, gets yelled at for wearing her “And then Buffy staked Edward. The End.” t-shirt among the Twi-fans at her school.

I think it goes with everything that has been said, especially the cipher characters. Anyone can be Bella (provided she has a submissive and masochistic personality) and Edward can be any hot male. And because it’s Big Fated Love, there is no pressure and no responsibility. For a teen who is being pressured to take on more adult responsibilities at home, this can be appealing in itself.

As for the state of current romance:
The big misunderstanding is still around. I hate books where I spend 200 pages waiting for someone to SAY something honest.

Rape is pretty much taboo these days. It was pretty popular when i started reading back in the early 80s.

Kink is popular, especially male-dom. Femdom isn’t even taken by some pubs.
Strong, smart capable women are popular.

Vampires have peaked. Werewolves are peaking. Witches, ghosts, demons and faeries are hot. The most disturbing trend: zombie romance and erotica.

Not all men have to be awesomely accomplished. I’m getting great reviews on a PTSD Iraq vet in love with a double-amputee phone psychic. (no, not kidding)

Not all romance novels require a man and a woman anymore. Gay romance is very popular. Lesbian romance remains a niche market.

Comment #87: Angelia Sparrow  on  11/17  at  03:17 PM

Bitter Scribe—It was Rabbit, Run.  This was a 12th grade AP class, if I remember correctly.

Comment #88: rowmyboat  on  11/17  at  03:17 PM

but it’s fascinating to me that male fantasies of acceptance lean towards graphically sexual, whereas female fantasies are ones where someone actually thinks you’re awesome regardless of whether or not they’re currently trying to achieve orgasm inside your body.

There are male fantasies of total acceptance that aren’t so hardcore as well. They’re in movies like “Garden State” with the magic girl who instantly likes you (and often without much of an insight as to why, exactly).

Comment #89: ballast  on  11/17  at  03:18 PM

I just don’t understand the giant to-do…ultimately, I don’t think this is the terrible thing you guys think it is.

Oh, look, Zifnab the Dudebro is here to tell all us silly wimminz that we’re wasting our time analyzing Twilight, it’s “just a story,” blah blah blah. Isn’t it great that we have a d00d here to MANsplain to us what our feeble little ladybrains should be concentrating on??

Seriously, Zif, every time you comment in a feminist-oriented thread, you minimize some concern or other than a woman has raised. Who the fuck are you to decide what’s important to us?

Also, Rowmyboat: The only Updike I’ve read is that horrendous short story in which he laments about housewives who have the nerve to go to the supermarket without proper patriarchy-approved attire, then that three young girls in bikinis get thrown out of the supermarket. OMG, doesn’t supermarket management realize that their hawtness is the important thing?!

Updike, Roth, and especially Mailer: Spare me from the fauxgressive literary stars of the ‘60s and ‘70s.

Comment #90: Nobody in Particular  on  11/17  at  03:20 PM

Sorry, Mnem.  I guess it makes me a snot that I don’t read romance novels.  I won’t be starting to prove my populist bona fides, I’m afraid.  Not enough hours in the day.

And yet somehow I never see you being dismissive of science fiction or mystery or horror as genres the same way you’re totally dismissive of romance, even though the only difference between romance and any other genre is that it’s centered on women.

It’s pretty easy to slip into the “if it’s traditionally aimed at women, it must be bad” trap.  I don’t see you do it often, but sometimes you do, and this is definitely an example.  You don’t have to love romance any more than you have to love mysteries or sci fi or thrillers, but you can at least recognize it as a legitimate genre and not insist that the crappy book your friends passed around at age 13 is always and forever the way romance novels are.  That would be like me reading Heinlein at the same age and deciding that all science fiction is sexist claptrap with weird fascist undertones.

Comment #91: Mnemosyne  on  11/17  at  03:22 PM

Ballast: I think you’re talking about the Manic Pixie Dreamgirl phenomenon (it’s explained on TV Tropes). Or maybe I’m wrong and what you’re talking about overlaps the MPDG phenomenon.

Comment #92: Nobody in Particular  on  11/17  at  03:22 PM

winnie, i concur.

i also think, and i wrote about this last year after reading the twilight books myself, that a big part of the appeal for readers past their teens, is the ONE thing meyers does pretty well, which is tapping into a very particular first-love kind of intensity, that most people experience as teenagers or young adults.  meyers is an abysmal writer, and don’t even get me started on the disturbing misogyny in the books, but she does capture a fleeting feeling that many people experience-that feeling that you cannot LIVE without the person, that you have a hole in your heart when they are gone, that you want them to take you away from everything that is wrong in your life, etc. 

meyers brings the “romeo and juliet” and “wuthering heights” comparisons down like a ton of bricks on every other page or so; it’s plain that she means this as a riff on “what if they lived?”  the problem that meyers apparently doesn’t understand (or doesn’t care), is that the point of tragedies of young lovers like “romeo and juliet” is that they die.  that super-intense, codependent, identity-stealing kind of young love isn’t meant to last.  in real life, it fades as it’s supposed to and people grow up.  or if they don’t, the relationship usually becomes some kind of toxic sid and nancy type situation where neither person is healthy as an individual. 

now i despise these books, but i admit to having torn through them all in about a week or so, so i must’ve seen something in them too, and i think that’s what it is.  i was remembering the first time i got horribly messed up over a boy and i kept wanting to shake bella and say “listen up, he’s not worth it!  this will pass, you will grow up and go to college and become a real adult and look back on this and feel wistfully silly in about ten years!”  after slogging through new moon, which is in my opinion the worst of the books, pacing-wise, i felt like i might as well see where this is all going.

as for the sex, ohhhhh there IS sex later in the series and i won’t spoil it for anyone, but basically the latter half of book 3 and book 4 have some straight-up horror elements that are just completely disturbing.

Comment #93: chareth cutestory  on  11/17  at  03:23 PM

In general I credit the vampire/teenage girl thing with a straight-up, Buffy-style replacement of a cultural monster-under-the-bed with a literal monster. Teenage girls who like dudes start experiencing sexual desire at about the same time that they’re taught sexual fear; the theme of finding that one good monster is a handy externalization of what the Feminism 101 blog calls Not My Nigel - a necessary separation of your Good Boyfriend from the amorphous dudes who are the reason you can’t walk down a street wearing shorts anymore. (Yes, all ... vampires long to penetrate your… neck, but you’re dating the one who can restrain himself until you, well, at least let him. Oh, our culture and its pathologies). Twilight goes way past that, though, so I am willing to buy this theory.

Comment #94: purpleshoes  on  11/17  at  03:24 PM

I read this a really long time ago, but anyone interested in a view of Twilight taking Mormonism into account- this is fascinating.  http://stoney321.livejournal.com/317176.html  It’s scary creepy just how “religious” Twilight is.

The vampire phenomena itself (not Dracula, but the recent stuff) is all about S+M.  Most of the people reading them and writing them are perfectly aware of that.  I don’t know about Stephanie Meyer (I can’t read through her crap- I’ve never made it pas the second page), she may be sanitizing that for kids.  Or she may be reflecting her fantasy world in a romance with pretend vampires (which is how I’ve always viewed Twilight).

I have not found anyone who likes vampire books to like Twilight, and vice versa.  But then again- the only people I know who read Jane Austen read it for her writing, plotting and humor, so I’m obviously traveling in a different crowd.

Comment #95: drachonfire  on  11/17  at  03:28 PM

Ballast: I think you’re talking about the Manic Pixie Dreamgirl phenomenon (it’s explained on TV Tropes). Or maybe I’m wrong and what you’re talking about overlaps the MPDG phenomenon.

Yeah, that’s about right there. I get the porn-for-guys/romance-novels-for-girls comparison, but when I think about the male equivalent of romance novels, I think more of movies like that. Certainly porn can satisfy a certain fantasy of acceptance, but the overall enjoyment is coming from a different part of the brain.

Comment #96: ballast  on  11/17  at  03:30 PM

Blitzgal, what’s interesting is that if you look at Bella’s thought process, especially in Breaking Dawn, what’s interesting is that she’s taking this kind of wormly, though-he-slay-me, extreme-evangelical-wifehood self-abnegation and basically tying it directly to a good old-fashioned teenage girl obsession with shuffling off this mortal coil. Bella doesn’t just want to die over Edward, Bella wants to die over everything. I don’t have a thesis statement to that observation, I just think it’s interesting.

Also interesting: the second they’re married, Edward practically drops out of the story. He was a thin character to start with, but he’s much, much less important than Bella’s baby and new in-laws. Again, no point to that observation besides that it’s an interesting world view.

Comment #97: purpleshoes  on  11/17  at  03:30 PM

Updike, Roth, and especially Mailer: Spare me from the fauxgressive literary stars of the ‘60s and ‘70s.

Oh, Mailer could be plenty progressive, as long as it was all about him. Ever read The Armies of the Night? The guy spent a few hours in a lockup after being arrested at a protest, and he made it sound like four years in Auschwitz.

Comment #98: Bitter Scribe  on  11/17  at  03:33 PM

Meyer once told a journalist. “There’s a lot of people who are just quieter and aren’t having the Prada lifestyle and going to a special school in New York where everyone’s rich and fabulous. There’s normal people out there and I think that’s one of the reasons Bella has become so popular.” Yet the Cullens, although they don’t live in New York, are rich and fabulous.

But what is striking, and the reason that some commentators on Twilight miss the appeal, is that the Cullens aren’t that rich or fabulous. The father is a doctor. They live in a Victorian house, not an estate, Edward drives a Volvo, not a BMW and attends the local public school, not the prep school. In their leisure time, the family plays Vampire baseball, rather than going Vampire yacht racing or vacationing in the Vampire Hamptons.

It seems that one of the reasons for Twilight’s popularity as wish fulfillment as well as it’s inscrutability in that department by critics is that Meyer manged to strike a chord that appeals to the fantasies of middle class and lower middle class readers which does not resonate in the minds of the upper middle class critics. Stephenie Meyer seems to understand the fantasy life of her teenage audience very well. Abd even among the adult fans, there is likely an aspect of, “I wish I had run off with that guy in high school from the doctor/lawyer family who went to Cornell after graduation and is now a banker.”

Comment #99: Tyro  on  11/17  at  03:38 PM

“After all, no one who has even an ounce of sophistication would deny that men have a right to watch all sorts of trashy porn without their general good taste being questioned.”

Well, then, I must be a complete redneck because I do not believe men have a “right” to watch all sorts of trashy porn in which women are routinely degraded and humiliated and treated as disposable objects, without their “general good taste” being questioned. Moreover, men who watch such crap and get off on it are misogynists.

Comment #100: CaroJ  on  11/17  at  03:39 PM

meyers brings the “romeo and juliet” and “wuthering heights” comparisons down like a ton of bricks on every other page or so; it’s plain that she means this as a riff on “what if they lived?”

Maybe it’s because I read it as an adult, but Wuthering Heights didn’t seem like a great romance to me at all.  It was about a really bad guy who decided to destroy the lives of everyone around him because the woman he loved realized he was an asshole and married someone else.  Cathy’s main problem seemed to be that she kept trying to give him second chances, not that she was deeply in love with him, which was probably why her ghost was waiting around to get her revenge on him for screwing up everyone else’s life.

Plus there was a lot of proto-eugenic stuff about Heathcliff being of irredeemably “bad blood” and “good blood” eventually showing through despite one’s upbringing that got kind of weird.

Comment #101: Mnemosyne  on  11/17  at  03:40 PM

It’s pretty easy to slip into the “if it’s traditionally aimed at women, it must be bad” trap.  I don’t see you do it often, but sometimes you do, and this is definitely an example.  You don’t have to love romance any more than you have to love mysteries or sci fi or thrillers, but you can at least recognize it as a legitimate genre and not insist that the crappy book your friends passed around at age 13 is always and forever the way romance novels are.  That would be like me reading Heinlein at the same age and deciding that all science fiction is sexist claptrap with weird fascist undertones.

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.

Romance is genre fiction. So are mysteries, sci-fi, westerns, etc. They all have their good examples and their crappy examples and in each case there are books that are “literature” yet share plot structures with the genre. Yet romance is the one that’s a nonstop punchline, that despite being the bestselling genre in the country for years, you’re supposed to be embarrassed to read. And it’s the one that’s overwhelmingly read by women. This is not a coincidence. And it’s particularly irksome to take it from both sides, from people who want to trivialize everything associated with women and from feminists.

There’s a reason I wrote my undergrad honors thesis and one of my two masters-level papers on romances. Well, there are two reasons. The good one is to try to understand how this very popular and yet very scorned genre functions and what’s attractive about it—same as led to multiple academic (albeit crappy) journals on sci-fi. The bad/sad one is that having studied them can at times serve as a partial cover for liking them. I shouldn’t need that. No one should.

Comment #102: Laura Clawson  on  11/17  at  03:44 PM

mnem, i agree about wuthering heights, i read it in college and had the same reaction.  but i think meyers perceives at least, cathy’s motivation to give that shitbag all those chances as passionate love.  at any rate, i think that reliving the thrill of one’s first love or biggest teenage love for older readers is part of the appeal, maybe magnified by what tyro addresses re: middle class fantasies.

Comment #103: chareth cutestory  on  11/17  at  03:52 PM

The only ‘romance’ novels I’ve ever liked are Victoria Janssen’s.  “The Duchess, Her Maid, the Groom, and Their Lover” was absolutely wonderful.

Comment #104: Arakiba  on  11/17  at  03:52 PM

the upper middle class critics

You vastly over-estimate how much money book critics make.

Comment #105: The Opoponax  on  11/17  at  03:55 PM

CaroJ@101, I agree. I absolutely do question the taste of men who are into trashy porn, which as far as I’m concerned is 99% of porn. Do I think they’re bad human beings for being aroused by it? Not usually. But do I question the taste of anyone who self-identifies as a “porn fan”? Oh hell yes.

Comment #106: kristin  on  11/17  at  03:59 PM

mnem, i agree about wuthering heights, i read it in college and had the same reaction.  but i think meyers perceives at least, cathy’s motivation to give that shitbag all those chances as passionate love.

Oh, yes, I wasn’t disagreeing with you.  More expanding on your point.  The fact that I’m a good 20 years past passionate teenage love and am happily married probably influenced my view of the book.  If I had read it at 15 or 16, I probably would have had a very different view of it that would be closer to Meyers’.

Comment #107: Mnemosyne  on  11/17  at  04:00 PM

I have a real thing for Georgette Heyer’s Regency romances and I’ve never quite worked out why. They’re reasonably well written, but their plots mostly vary only in superficial details like the name of the late twenties well-bred spinster who’s fallen on hard times and is planning to become a governess, or whether the man who saves her from this fate is a Duke or merely an Earl. Plus the heroes can be unbelievably shitty. There’s one in which the hero attempts to rape the heroine in revenge for her having foiled his attempt to elope with her sister!

And yet I have a whole shelf of them and reread them a lot. I don’t read them as romances in the sense of wanting to be the heroine - well, at least I certainly don’t think I do. I think it’s more something about the formulaic plots, which make reading a romance rather like watching a tennis match: there are strict rules that must be followed, any surprises must act within those rules, so you know where you are. The appeal is in that simplicity: when real life is scarily uncertain and open-ended, soothingly predictable stories make the best escape literature.

Comment #108: MissPrism  on  11/17  at  04:00 PM

MissPrism, if you really like Heyer, you might like Kate Ross’ Regency mystery novels.  There are, unfortunately, only four of them since she died of cancer at a relatively young age, but she does a great job of examining the era and especially a lot of the underlying assumptions.  Of the four, Whom the Gods Love is probably my favorite, but all four of them are good.

Comment #109: Mnemosyne  on  11/17  at  04:04 PM

Ah, no! If you like Georgette Heyer MissPrism you should read Lois McMaster Bujold’s sci fi series about Cordelia Vorkosigan!  I couldn’t get into Kate Ross at all. But if you can go that far you will love Lois Bujold—she takes as her model (among other things) Georgette Heyer, Dorothy Sayers and a host of other people you might love.

Also, Laura Clawson, I agree with everything you’ve written here about the romance. There’s a lot to grasp about the Romance as a genre. And nothing to be ashamed of.

aimai

Comment #110: aimai  on  11/17  at  04:07 PM

Oo, thanks Mnemosyne! That’s gone straight onto my wishlist.

Comment #111: MissPrism  on  11/17  at  04:08 PM

And, in fact, when she does finally, give it up, within the confines of marriage, the fans go nuts and tell Meyer that she’s ruined the whole thing.

Well, that could have more to do with the vampire-fang caesarian, the werewolf imprinting on an infant, and the wet firecracker of a final battle than with the sex. 

Even if it is the sex, well…I can’t really blame them.  After three books of sexual tension, Edward & Bella finally make it to the Marriage Bed, and…Bella wakes up covered with bruises, pregnant (after the first time!) with an impossible demon baby who will (and does!) kill her, and a hubby who doesn’t want to fuck her anymore, because of the injuries that he inflicted the first time (for fuck’s sake, asshole, lie back and let the non-superhuman set her own pace!).

The number of women and girls who consider that to be a satisfactory conclusion to a three-book romance story is most likely…smaller than Meyers’s audience as a whole.  Especially when it’s followed by this:

the second they’re married, Edward practically drops out of the story. He was a thin character to start with, but he’s much, much less important than Bella’s baby and new in-laws.

I think the only people who could appreciate that completely are those who share Meyers’s brainwashing.

Comment #112: Seraph  on  11/17  at  04:08 PM

I second Mnemosyne’s recommendation of Kate Ross’s Julian Kestrel series.

Comment #113: Seraph  on  11/17  at  04:11 PM

You vastly over-estimate how much money book critics make.

They don’t make money, they’re married to it or are born into it.  Or at least that’s the impression i’ve always got.

Comment #114: Gavel Down  on  11/17  at  04:11 PM

As Amanda said, the film & the book (series) Twilight has mass appeal because they appeal to all sorts of female fantasies. I even know a few guys who say it’s a respectable Vampire tale.

Perhaps the young, feminine appeal (among some) to Edward is that he’s a threatening male who is in fact non-threatening. Thus, thru Bella, Edward allows lovelorn teenage girls to have their fantasy beefcake, and eat it too.

At any rate, if you want a proper vampire tale see “Let The Right One In.” It makes “Twilight” resemble a lame, late night B-flick by comparison (and it is).

Comment #115: CHV  on  11/17  at  04:13 PM

aimai, thanks! I’ll give Bujold a go too.

Incidentally, my university library holds all Heyer’s detective novels (tried one once, didn’t think it was much good) but none of the silly fluffy girly romances. I suspect that’s because detective novels are perceived as more manly and respectable and intellectual despite being exactly as fantastical and clicheed.

Comment #116: MissPrism  on  11/17  at  04:14 PM

On the chastity thing, I think you need to keep in mind that this isn’t a book about adults, directed at adult readers.  It’s a book about teenagers, directed at teenagers and tweeners.

I read a lot of YA—in fact, nowadays, I find I prefer it to adult fiction—and I can assure you that many writers don’t shy away from sex or dark themes like drug abuse.  The sex usually isn’t explicit, but it’s there.

My take with Twilight, and I’ve only manage to suffer through the first book, is that the chastity is an outgrowth of the author’s Mormonism.

The only attraction I found in the book was Meyer’s voice, which made Bella interesting, even though she really had no redeeming characteristics.  The story consisted of Edward following Bella around and complaining that she was following him around.  The protagonist and any sense of real danger doesn’t arrive until two-thirds of the way through the book.  Bleh.

But I probably would have loved the series when I was sixteen.

Comment #117: adobedragon  on  11/17  at  04:16 PM

Teenage girls who like dudes start experiencing sexual desire at about the same time that they’re taught sexual fear; the theme of finding that one good monster

How much of “The Beauty and the Beast” type stories (or even princess and frog type stories) are about this?

Comment #118: DAS  on  11/17  at  04:16 PM

Adobe @ 118:

But I probably would have loved the series when I was sixteen.

Which is exactly what has enabled Meyer to capture pubescent lightning in a bottle, and vend it to millions of teenage girls (and more than a few adult women).

As such, speaking as a straight adult male (the antithesis of the demographic “Twilight” which is seeking) I don’t see much of interest in the story. Yet by the same token, if Meyer can make a mint selling it then more power to her.

Comment #119: CHV  on  11/17  at  04:21 PM

My take on the Twilight (and Harry Potter) phenomenon is that it underlines how marginally literate most people are.  Words are just words, and simply has very little extended meaning beyond what’s printed in people’s minds.  Meyer’s lack of wordcraft does not repel so long as it paints the crudely kitsh, like something from Thomas Kinkade’s brush, assembly of what is already known and what is already desired.  Candy vampires!  People literally can’t process challenge from words, or if they can, they have a bad intellectual reaction.  Jk Rowling isn’t nearly as offensively bad as Meyer is, but the Harry Potter suffer from the same issues.  Lots of distracting, pretty, fluff, little that *truly* moves a mind.

This sort of thing bugs me, because it seems like terrible writers like Meyer and Rowlings write well publicized, agreeable (to a mainstream) pap, while people like Caitlyn Kiernan has to scramble to get by.  I mean, I don’t know if she intended it or not, but Daughter of Hounds is as thoroughly an anti-Harry Potter book as you can get (so many of the plot elements are inverted—girl instead of boy, loving and intelligent parent instead of pig ignorant and xenophobic uncle and his family, so forth and on) and it does stuff like use nigger just once, and do it in a spectacular way that flipped my mind when I hit the intellectual brakes.  That novel doesn’t make money, but Lev Grossman’s The Magicians certainly does, and it has all of the inherent flaws of its predecessors, despite it being Harry Potter for adults.

There is just no heaven or hell for Twilight analogues in my mind after I put the novel down.  I don’t want to revisit the author’s imagination later, no nothing.  I think Twilight does more harm to American life than people are willing to accept.  It’s a new standard for lowest common denominator.

Angela Sparrow, I’m filled with plenty of trepidation with the whole rise of witches and fairies.  There are so many profoundly bad ones.  I think very little of Seanan McGuire, Marc DelFranco, or Linda Robertson.  Witches, ghosts, or faerie requires substantially more in the way of careful creativity than vampires or werewolves do.  I mean, Huston does a pretty good vampire cobbled together out of rubrik of vampire literature.  There’s just a lot out there for vampires and werewolf literature, and people knows what works and what doesn’t, if they read much of it.  This isn’t the case with other supernatural critters—witness the gulf in readability of Kat Richardson and Phaedra Weldon on what is essentially the same sort of critter as protagonist.  Demons are getting some pretty good stuff—Diana Rowland’s got something there, and some people, like Lyn Benedict is making genuinely good mashups.

Comment #120: shah8  on  11/17  at  04:24 PM

speaking of the mormon influence, i’m not mormon and so this stuff never really occurred to me, aside from the most obvious themes of chastity and importance of family, but has anyone read this?
http://stoney321.livejournal.com/317176.html


it’s long, but very funny and she gives some insights into mormon scriptural influences on the story.

Comment #121: chareth cutestory  on  11/17  at  04:25 PM

Oh, yes, I wasn’t disagreeing with you.  More expanding on your point.  The fact that I’m a good 20 years past passionate teenage love and am happily married probably influenced my view of the book.  If I had read it at 15 or 16, I probably would have had a very different view of it that would be closer to Meyers’.

The first time I had to read WH was at age 14, and it remains the single book that, for me, really didn’t live up to its reputation. And I wanted to read it . . .

I had all these people, including my mom, telling me what a fabulous book it was . . . and it STUNK. I just wanted to slap most of the characters.  I had to reread it in college, and at that point, actually didn’t think it was as terrible as I did in high school. But it was still an awful book.

Comment #122: hp  on  11/17  at  04:26 PM

“Although I’d say that Persuasion is my favorite Austen novel. “

mine too.  Wentworth is worth a 1,000 Darcys.  I love the autumnal feel of that book (being her last).

I forced myself to read the Twilight Series, because I volunteer with tween girls and wanted to know what they were always talking about.  Looking back on what I did read when I was 13 - The Vampire Diaries (before they butchered it on t.v.) and The Forbidden Game series, I know that had I read Twilight at 13, i would have loved it. 

It is exactly porn of non-rejection. There is nothing interesting, noteworthy or special about Bella that would explain Edward’s obsession with her.  She’s just a regular girl (though, noting the serious levels of self-depreciation, that alone is troubling), and yet she snags the boy in high school that all the other girls want, but can’t have.  And he worships her.  It’s exactly what a young girl wants to hear.  And, it’s exactly what older women who’ve been around the block and thoroughly disappointed by actual males want to hear.

At least, that’s what I gather from the women I know who are all into it. 

It’s not good literature at all. it’s not even a good trashy read.

Comment #123: Gypsy Lee  on  11/17  at  04:31 PM

I have vented my opinion on Wuthering Heights before: http://capacioushandbag.blogspot.com/2008/09/meme-that-i-just-made-up.html

shah8, that attitude almost makes me want to read Twilight! Really, there’s nothing morally wrong with light reading. Sometimes I want my mind moved, sometimes I want to curl up with something enjoyable and low-effort, just like some days I want to cook halibut in coconut suace with homemade Thai greeen curry paste, and some days I want to order a pizza.

Comment #124: MissPrism  on  11/17  at  04:33 PM

Incidentally, my university library holds all Heyer’s detective novels (tried one once, didn’t think it was much good) but none of the silly fluffy girly romances. I suspect that’s because detective novels are perceived as more manly and respectable and intellectual despite being exactly as fantastical and clicheed.

It’s ironic to think that had Heyer only written her rather pedestrian detective stories, she might have a better literary reputation. As it is, she has had the misfortune to invent a genre, the Regency romance, and then get pigeonholed with later, inferior writers, when what she was really writing was much more like Wodehouse as comedy of manners costume drama than bodice-ripper romance. (She had a very sceptical attitude to her own heroes, too, noting that they would be insufferable for half-an-hour in real life.)

Georgette Heyer has only really been marketed as romantic fiction specifically for women in the last two decades. When she was actually writing she was marketed to and for both men and women as a mainstream middlebrow writer. There are some glorious pulp covers of her novels very much in the style of pulp fiction aimed at men, and other more sober ones of the “this is a serious historical novel” type, with line drawings frock-coated men standing about severe architecture. That she’s been lumped in with Mills&Boon;bodice-rippers means that that not only men who might enjoy her books miss out, but women (both Heyer readers and non-readers) do, too.

Mind you, it strikes me that a lot of what appeals about “Twilight” is what might appeal about the Peter Wimsey/Harriet Vane romance - being infinitely desired by someone who seems to have everything already, is attractive to a lot of people, yet has explicitly picked you. Except that “Gaudy Night” is a great work of literature, and “Twilight” isn’t.

Comment #125: Nineveh  on  11/17  at  04:33 PM

They don’t make money, they’re married to it or are born into it.  Or at least that’s the impression i’ve always got.

Maybe a few, at super-elite publications like the New Yorker or the TLS.  If this was a case of a handful of high-falutin literary critics panning Twilight, the class divide of who likes/doesn’t like the series might be relevant.  But even your average pop cultural blogger hates Twilight.  And somehow I don’t get the sense that you need to have been an English major at Yale to guest post at Jezebel. 

Not to mention that, for the most part, we’re all free to be interested in whatever media we want - it’s not like it costs a zillion dollars to buy an Orhan Pamuk novel while they’re giving Twilight away down at the food stamp office*.  One of my coworkers does come from serious money and absolutely loves Twilight.  I know other people who grew up in trailer parks and wouldn’t read it if you paid them.

*Though, on the other hand, you can buy Twilight at WalMart but would probably have to go to a real bookstore for Pamuk.

Comment #126: The Opoponax  on  11/17  at  04:34 PM

Ah, no! If you like Georgette Heyer MissPrism you should read Lois McMaster Bujold’s sci fi series about Cordelia Vorkosigan!  I couldn’t get into Kate Ross at all. But if you can go that far you will love Lois Bujold—she takes as her model (among other things) Georgette Heyer, Dorothy Sayers and a host of other people you might love.

I love Bujold—and especially Cordelia—so I say read both!  wink  Start with Shards of Honor and work your way chronologically from there.  They’ve put Shards of Honor and Barrayar into a single edition called Cordelia’s Honor so you can get the two Cordelia-centered books together and read them back-to-back.

It’s far down in the series, but Bujold’s A Civil Campaign has the second-funniest dinner-party-gone-wrong scene I’ve ever read.  (It’s surpassed only by the scene in Jennifer Crusie’s Strange Bedpersons that culminates in the heroine’s nervous best friend puking on her future mother-in-law’s Manolos at the fanciest restaurant in town.)

Comment #127: Mnemosyne  on  11/17  at  04:37 PM

Thanks for the clip Felix.  I laughed out loud, especially when the female V. Hunter says: “God.  You’re really annoying.”  I’m sending it to everyone I know who’ll get it.

@ CHV:  I’ll see you’re “Let The Right One In” & raise you a “Near Dark”!

Comment #128: Smartpatrol  on  11/17  at  04:41 PM

Strange Bedpersons goes on the list too, then. As does Daughter of Hounds. I can enjoy Potter and anti-Potter without risk of explosion, can’t I? (I keep my Narnia books next to His Dark Materials on the bookshelf, and like to think they fight when I’m not looking)

Comment #129: MissPrism  on  11/17  at  04:42 PM

Strange Bedpersons goes on the list too, then.

If you’re going to read Crusie (who I highly recommend) you need to read Faking It. It’s one of my favorite books ever.

Comment #130: rivki  on  11/17  at  04:49 PM

MissPrism, sure, make my day, and go read it!  I have absolutely nothing against trashy or light reads.  I’m certainly not in a position to argue, given how much of that sort of thing I read.  To an extent, my problem with Harry Potter is not so much that people should read better stuff, but that from my perspective, it sucks quite a bit of oxygen out of marketplace, and I don’t think the phenomenon is actually helping other authors in fantasy.

My problem with Twilight is that it’s not comfort food.  It’s cheap chocolate laced with salmonella.  I do think there is such a thing as toxic art.  Go read something in science fiction—say John Ringo’s or Terry Goodkind’s work and think about how tolerant you’d be of people who read them uncritically (hint, such people are far worse than furries).

Comment #131: shah8  on  11/17  at  04:49 PM

Tyro-I have to respectfully disagree about the Cullens being just “middle-class”.  Alice gets Bella’s wedding dress from an exclusive French designer.  Edward buys Alice a yellow ferrari as a bribe for watching Bella.  Esme renovates a ruin and turns it into a massive restoration project with the second floor primarily a walk in closet of designer clothes picked out by Alice.  (They make a point that Esme has a habit of renovating antique homes and that the family owns a lot of real estate and that Rosalie and Emmett have also been given huge manors of their very own to live in.)  Edward buys Bella diamonds and the family showers her with precious gifts.  The family travels anywhere at a moments notice from Alaska, to Ireland, to Italy, etc. etc.  they also can apparently get into any great schools they want at anytime to study philosophy or whatever.  Carlisle is a doctor but that seems almost optional on his part-apparently Alice’s ability to see the future also extends to stock tips as well.  Edward and Bella have a honeymoon in Brazil on a private island that the Cullen family owns, named after Esme for crying out loud!!!  I admit Meyers is tapping into a fantasy all right but it’s the good old American fantasy of endless consumption.

Comment #132: winnie  on  11/17  at  04:52 PM

It’s long been recognized that Dracula and all the vampires that follow, are variations of the Byronic Hero. Mr Darcy is not a Byronic hero - he’s too even-keeled. Heathcliff is pointed to as one of the first, and the quintessential Byronic hero.

I’ve been wondering (have no idea) if modern romances are hesitant to use Byronic (emotionally disturbed) heroes in their romances because they are so complicated and detrimental to liberated women.

Is the vampire filling this gap? His supernaturalness giving him an excuse to be Byronic, whereas regular men cannot get away with it anymore?

Comment #133: liviaclaudia  on  11/17  at  04:52 PM

I don’t think there’s enough “OH JOHN RINGO NO”-ing over the whole “imprinting” mess. To explain it a bit further, when a male werewolf imprints on a child, his actions are parental, fatherly, loving. In fact, he makes a perfect parent. Because he’s such a perfect parent, she will, once she reaches his age, fall madly in romantic love with him.

You never saw a real parent so jazzed to play whatever stupid kiddie sport their rugrat could think up. I’d seen Quil play peekaboo for an hour straight without getting bored. [...] Though I did think it sucked that he had a good fourteen years of monk-i-tude ahead of him until Claire was his age.

I quote, from a later section of the book, referring to the same topic: “why would she say no?”.

The Twilight series contains narration which sighs about the tragedy that a character will have to wait nearly a decade and a half to have sex with his adopted daughter. His emotional gift will be repaired with a physical gift. Isn’t he such a Nice Guy, folks? Isn’t he?

Comment #134: grendelkhan  on  11/17  at  04:56 PM

Ah and to bring my last comment to bear on my original comments, the general low genuine literacy means readers just accept premises that they really shouldn’t even though it feeds into their fancies or wealth or true love or whatever.

Comment #135: shah8  on  11/17  at  05:00 PM

Also, I don’t think Mr. Darcy is supposed to be an ass, actually.  The title of the book points to what it is—-a comedy of errors.  Elizabeth and Mr. Darcy’s bad opinions of each other are formed by what amounts to an unfortunate circumstance.  They meet each other on a bad day, and the rest of the book is an exploration of how hard it is to get over a bad first impression.

The actor in the Keira Knightley version made what I think is clear in the book:  Darcy is shy.  He was attracted to Elizabeth from the beginning, couldn’t process it maturely, and so denigrated her appearance in her hearing.  Not that that’s acceptable behavior, but it doesn’t qualify him as the biggest asshole in the book.  He’s not Wickham.

Every woman I know who claims to have a huge crush on Darcy will admit that they really just have a huge crush on Darcy as played by whoever it was in the BBC movie (Colin Firth, maybe?).

What I find interesting about that is that Firth played Darcy as Edward Rochester—obsessively in love with Elizabeth.  That isn’t in the book, but guess which version of the character turns women on?

And Dickens has way more crush-worthy male characters, too—Sidney Carton, be still my heart…

Ronald Colman as Carton in the movie… sigh.

Comment #136: keshmeshi  on  11/17  at  05:06 PM

shah8: Oh hell, the mere mention of Terry Goodkind is enough to set my blood boiling, what a humourless, derivative hack.  I am less familiar with John Ringo, mainly because I read his bio once and figured he probably wasn’t writing anything I really wanted to spend any time or money on.

I hope you aren’t off fantasy altogether as a genre though…I find George RR Martin to be a superb writer for any genre.  HBO is filming the Game of Thrones pilot right now.

Comment #137: Felix Culpa  on  11/17  at  05:07 PM

Seriously the pseudo-incestuous angle made even die hard Twilight fans uneasy.  It’s also interesting grendelkhan that no one ever considers the possibility that Leah Clearwater, (the pack’s only female werewolf,) might ever imprint on some guy either…like that kind of love at first sight thing is by definition something men have for women and that they recieve not the other way around.  Maybe because in women we rightly recognize that level of obsession to be totally creepy and a sign of poor mental health.

Comment #138: winnie  on  11/17  at  05:10 PM

I never understood the appeal of Heathcliff.  Certainly Wuthering Heights is a well-written novel, but I never found that “romance” compelling.  If anything, I find Hareton a much more interesting character:  deliberately brought up to be an illiterate brute, finally rebels against his surrogate father in at least a small way, and ultimately reforms himself.

Comment #139: keshmeshi  on  11/17  at  05:11 PM

Wuthering Heights didn’t seem like a great romance to me at all.

If WH is read as a love story, no wonder folks hate it nowadays.  I would too.

WH is best read as an indictment against female domesticity (like many “female Gothic” tales).  For a Victorian woman to portray such a violent, gritty, enraged reality of marriage and wifely existence, E Bronte earns my perpetual kudos.  I’m with the school that sees the novel as a proto-feminist scream. Beaten women and tossed babies and all the decaying metaphors vex the so-called romance to hell and back.  That is one angry-ass book and the older I get, the more I appreciate it.

Comment #140: Ranylt  on  11/17  at  05:11 PM

I haven’t read the Twilight books or seen the movies so I can’t really have an opinion on them, but the idea of a guy in love with an infant who is going to be his step-daughter seems as creepy as the fathers who attend those virginity balls with their daughters.  Maybe it’s the religious right’s obsession with virginity that make the idea of being in love with an unborn child acceptable to them, but it’s a nasty, skin crawly idea to me.

Comment #141: G Porgey  on  11/17  at  05:14 PM

The other reason folks like Firth’s Darcy is that he’s hotter.  And the movie around him was better done.  The recent one with Knightley as Lizzy was artistically heavy-handed.  And short.

Comment #142: rowmyboat  on  11/17  at  05:19 PM

keshmeshi, that’s what I love about the Kiera Knightly rendition - it’s a story about two fairly misanthropic introverts falling in love as awkwardly as possible. I’m not a big fan of the romantic convention of the Big Misunderstanding, but it grates a lot less when it’s the reason for awkward courtship between people who are bad at talking to anyone they haven’t known since birth.

Comment #143: purpleshoes  on  11/17  at  05:23 PM

I’ve got a Rifftrax for Twilight… I suppose I should watch it some day.

Oh do, it’s so fantastic!  My husband says that the movie was so boring that even Mike & the guys couldn’t save it, but I found it funny!

I watched the first and second season of TrueBlood and I think “Vampire Bill” almost meets Edward in the creepy abusive controlling department.  I watch it mostly because it’s funny, but I fear for women out there who think there’s some kind of love story going on.

I’ve been in love with every actor who has played Darcy, especially Matthew Macfadyen from that gawd awful movie version with Keira Knightley. I can’t be objective about the book until they cast someone for the part that I don’t find hot.

Comment #144: Godless Heathen  on  11/17  at  05:32 PM

Shah8, being a practicing pagan myself, witchy romance novels fill me with trepidation as well.  It’s also why I wrote a pagan inspirational romance.

Demons and demon-spawn who can be redeemed by a good woman ARE getting more popular.

Comment #145: Angelia Sparrow  on  11/17  at  05:34 PM

If male pornography emphasizes women as being ready sex objects, and female pornography emphasizes men who are obsessively attracted to a single woman, then that seems to support at least one contention of evolutionary psychologists about human sexuality. 

If men have an evolutionary advantage in spreading their genes to as many women as possible, then it makes sense that men would develop traits which would seek and find attractive women who are easily available for sex.

If women have an evolutionary advantage in protecting the survival of their limited number of eggs, and extended period of pregnancy (which limits their ability to procreate in anything like the numbers possible to men), then it makes sense that women would develop traits which would result in looking for and obtaining monogamous, or near monogamous men.

Comment #146: Nick  on  11/17  at  05:50 PM

Go read something in science fiction—say John Ringo’s or Terry Goodkind’s work and think about how tolerant you’d be of people who read them uncritically (hint, such people are far worse than furries).

If you haven’t already, you must read this essay, which is probably best known as, OH JOHN RINGO NO!  It’s by someone who just can’t help being more and more staggered by just how weird and awful and bizarre Ringo’s books are.

Comment #147: Mnemosyne  on  11/17  at  05:56 PM

Mmm.  Good point Nick.  By the same token, our cultural fondness for forks and other eating implements supports the evolutionary psychologists’ contention that humans evolved not to use their hands for eating, because people who didn’t use forks would accidentally ingest fecal matter and die before they could reproduce.


I mean, it’s total bullshit, and there’s zero evidence connecting our cultural practices to actual evolutionary pressures and/or archeological evidence, but it sounds plausible and supports our current prejudices, so it must be true.  ALL HAIL SCIENCE.

Comment #148: Gavel Down  on  11/17  at  05:59 PM

gavel down, i was wondering how many seconds would elapse before someone put the smack down on evo psych bullshittery and by the time i refreshed, voila!  you guys are the best.

Comment #149: chareth cutestory  on  11/17  at  06:01 PM

I’ve been wondering (have no idea) if modern romances are hesitant to use Byronic (emotionally disturbed) heroes in their romances because they are so complicated and detrimental to liberated women.

It depends on what you mean by “emotionally disturbed.”  I’ve read great romances by Mary Jo Putney that revolve around heroes who are alcoholics or sexual abuse survivors.  Of course, the entire point of the book is that the heroine can give some emotional support but she cannot “save” them—they have to change themselves and that change has to stick even if (it looks like) the relationship breaks up.

Comment #150: Mnemosyne  on  11/17  at  06:04 PM

Can we get over this idea that fantasies are significant in any way? i may fantasize about being James Bond, but that doesn’t mean I want people to shoot at me in real life. And I sure as hell don’t want Pussy Galore.

Comment #151: pablo  on  11/17  at  06:07 PM

Ah, the sweet drivel of emotional pornography.

Lovely, we have unrealistic emotional expectations for the tween-girl (and way older, too) demographic.

So teh menz have their sexual pornography so NiceGuys(tm) and douchebags can have unrealistic expectations regarding sexuality.

Now we have the continuation of emotional pornography for women so teh womenz can have unrealistic expectations regarding romance and relationships.

Comment #152: AuntieMay  on  11/17  at  06:09 PM

I am completely gobsmacked that ANYONE completely hates 19th century literature. What?

I don’t completely hate it, but from the point of view of this 21st century American so much of Western European and American (especially europhile American) 19th century literature uses such excessively and implausibly florid and overlong language that it operates under a self-inflicted literary handicap.  I’m aware this was largely the style at the time, but I don’t care for it, and it leaves me in awe of the handful of authors (notably Twain, Bierce, Gilman, and Conrad) who could actually make 19th century writing flow.

I find reading Jane Austen or Edgar Allan Poe or Henry James or Jules Verne or Bram Stoker (especially Bram-freaking-Stoker) a slog.  This doesn’t mean it can’t be a highly worthwhile literary endeavor (excepting Bram-freaking-Stoker), and it doesn’t mean their work might not be intelligent or socially important or groundbreaking in a genre, but if so it’s worthwhile despite, not because of, the literary style.  “The Fall of the House of Usher”, for example, is one of the great short stories and I recommend it, but the writing is often cringeworthy.

(Just my two cents as a reader.  I am sure any serious literary scholar can show me where I’m wrong, but, hey, de gustibus non disputandum est.)

Comment #153: cminus  on  11/17  at  06:10 PM

I find reading Jane Austen or Edgar Allan Poe or Henry James or Jules Verne or Bram Stoker (especially Bram-freaking-Stoker) a slog.

Reading Bram-freaking-Stoker is like reading Mary-freaking-Shelley:  they came up with iconic characters but goddamn it’s a slog to get through the actual book.

Poe is actually closer to Austen, literature-wise, than he is to James or Verne, since he did the majority of his writing in the 1830s and 1840s.  He’s more of a Romantic (in the Bronte sense), while James and Verne are firmly Victorian (even though James is American).

Comment #154: Mnemosyne  on  11/17  at  06:16 PM

The actor in the Keira Knightley version made what I think is clear in the book:  Darcy is shy.

You know, I’m always fascinated by people who think this.  I’ve never been able to see Darcy as shy.  He isn’t at ease in some social situations, but neither is he a shrinking violet.  Especially because later in the novel, his sister is explicitly shown to be shy, but Elizabeth doesn’t make any connection between her shyness and his—indeed, she actually draws an explicit contrast between their natures.  IMO, Darcy is an entitled jerk who has to figure out how to treat even those he dislikes with respect.  That he does in the end is the fairytale.

Comment #155: Karinna A.  on  11/17  at  06:16 PM

winnie: It’s also interesting grendelkhan that no one ever considers the possibility that Leah Clearwater, (the pack’s only female werewolf,) might ever imprint on some guy either…like that kind of love at first sight thing is by definition something men have for women and that they recieve not the other way around.

I think it has less to do with recognizing that kind of behavior as creepy in women; I think it’s more about not being able to conceive of women as agents in their own right. For all Bella’s longing, there’s never any real threat that she’ll do anything but wait for Edward. Presumably a female werewolf imprinting on a male human would be just as anticlimactic.

Comment #156: grendelkhan  on  11/17  at  06:19 PM

If you haven’t already, you must read this essay, which is probably best known as, OH JOHN RINGO NO! It’s by someone who just can’t help being more and more staggered by just how weird and awful and bizarre Ringo’s books are.

Be fair: the essay in question is regarding one particular series of his, not all his books, which he himself fully admits is completely over the top ridiculous and awful.  He’s pretty much admitted the only reason he keeps writing that particular series is because (a) he can make money off them because people buy them, which he finds odd, and (b) he wants to see just how over the top he can go.

While Ringo is on the conservative/libertarian style of his writing, he can write a more balanced story.  His standalone novel Princess of Wands is an example.  The main character is a devout Christian and starts as the stereotypical Southern Baptist stay-at-home housewife (albeit one who is an outstanding martial artist, which she uses as exercise and stress relief), but she’s frustrated at her role, her husband’s uselessness when he gets home, feeling trapped…and then one day just snaps and takes off for a break and then the real story starts.

Comment #157: KeithM  on  11/17  at  06:25 PM

I’ve never been able to see Darcy as shy.  He isn’t at ease in some social situations, but neither is he a shrinking violet….IMO, Darcy is an entitled jerk who has to figure out how to treat even those he dislikes with respect.

See, I think Darcy is both an entitled jerk and shy. He just deals with his shyness in the gender appropriate (for the time) way - being rude.  Both Darcy siblings are shy - but Georgiana displays her shyness by being timidly reserved, while Fitzwilliam is rudely reserved.  He needs to explain his disinclination to dance or socialize with people he doesn’t know, so he insults people - it’s his method of coping. However, his distaste for Elizabeth’s family is pure entitled jerk.

Comment #158: rivki  on  11/17  at  06:28 PM

Oh, no, I’m not ever going to be fair to John Ringo.  His atrocities have happened in most of the series before I went, I do not ever want to read his shit again.  Fun stuff, like saying that women have trouble with the consequences of rape because they enjoyed being raped and didn’t want to admit it.

Comment #159: shah8  on  11/17  at  06:31 PM

Good point Grendelkhan…that might be one reason Meyers doesn’t spend as much time with Rosalie/Emmett where Rosalie after all distinctly saved him and carried him hundreds of miles away to Carlyle to be turned…it’s entirely too much a reversal of traditional gender roles. Or maybe it’s because Leah being the one to imprint on someone just doesn’t fit non-rejection porn.  After all as a lot of her readers probably are too well aware being madly fixated on another guy doesn’t guarantee he’ll be unable to say no to you…though, Meyers at least pretends that the exact opposite is true.

Comment #160: winnie  on  11/17  at  06:32 PM

However, his distaste for Elizabeth’s family is pure entitled jerk.

I maintain that his distaste for Elizabeth’s mother, however, is simply common sense.

(I know the character is operating under singular pressures which drive her mercenary wiles and general pretension. And that her lack of sophistication and education results from a social injustice. But I still find her about as tolerable as a drunk moose.)

Comment #161: Well, what?  on  11/17  at  06:35 PM

@159 On the other hand, given what I have read of the Bennets, as people, they are dislikeable. Two squealing teenyboppers, an awkward know-it-all who overcompensates by being pedantic in a bid to seem more mature than she really is, a patently ridiculous woman who has only the hunt for husbands for her daughters to while away her days, a dismissively reclusive father, and then, finally, two okay individual older daughters, who grew up fairly level-headed compared to their younger sisters because they had to, I suspect.

Comment #162: Norvegica  on  11/17  at  06:36 PM

I don’t really get why 19th century literary style is such a huge turnoff for people.  I mean, yeah, it’s “florid” compared to your typical paperback thriller, but so?  I mean, I’m not saying you have to like that period of literature if you just don’t, but I don’t really understand why people always point to writing style.  I guess it could seem florid and clunky in general if you never read anything but The Hardy Boys until you had Steinbeck and Hemingway and other modernists thrown at you in high school, but…?  Maybe it’s a girl thing, cutting your teeth on Frances Hodgson Burnett and Louisa May Alcott?

Comment #163: The Opoponax  on  11/17  at  06:41 PM

Reading Bram-freaking-Stoker is like reading Mary-freaking-Shelley:  they came up with iconic characters but goddamn it’s a slog to get through the actual book.

As opposed to the Twilight series, which practically reads itself?

Okay, I understand the complaint, but Dracula is a gothic horror novel—it’s *supposed* to be overwrought.  It’s been a while since I read Shelley, but I don’t remember her prose being any more convoluted or cumbersome than most 19th century writing.  If I’m cutting her slack for being a pioneer of horror…well, so be it.

The Brothers Karamazov—now *that’s* a slog.

Comment #164: Sour Kraut  on  11/17  at  06:41 PM

I read both romance and sci-fi/fantasy voraciously. And the only way I could stop the negative comments I got from all comers, in all directions about EVERYTHING I was reading was to get a Sony eReader so that they couldn’t see the cover and I could lie about what I was reading. It probably is the one thing that stopped me from killing people for trying to explain (to my obviously tiny lady brain) the finer details of my favorite authors’ works to me (in teh case of sci-fi/fantasy) and getting it TOTALLY WRONG, or conversely telling me that I’m waaaay too intelligent to be reading “trashy romance novels” and too smart to spend my money on that kind of “garbage”.

What is it about a girl sitting on the subway minding her own business that makes people want to interrupt her book to enlighten her? sigh.

And if you see your mom or your sister or your girlfriend reading trashy pulp fiction, it’s a lot easier to slide her a quality bit of Neil Gaimann or Terry Pratchett when she’s done than it is to get her to pick up a book when she’s adverse to the very idea of reading.

and zinfab, I know you had a smiley after this, but it totally made me see red… ‘cause people have tried to do that to me, and I’ve read both Gaiman and Pratchett thank you very much, and enjoyed them too… I just enjoy the “trashy pulp fiction” AS WELL. But no one stops to figure that out before telling me I should expand my horizons and drop the “trash” (illuminating descriptor there).

Comment #165: kodiak  on  11/17  at  06:47 PM

@163:  True, but his disdain for the Bennets doesn’t rest only on 4 of them being patently ridiculous idiots who only barely keep within the bounds of respectable behavior.  Their behavior only compounded their situation in life—no dowry, low connections, etc.  I doubt that if all 7 members of the family conducted themselves perfectly that Darcy would have behaved much differently in the first half of the novel.  Granted, without the atrocious behavior of the silly Bennets (and Mr. Bennet) at the Netherfield Ball, Darcy wouldn’t have had the immediate impetus to separate Jane and Bingley.  But I doubt that he would have let Bingley propose to Jane once he finally caught wind of things, anyway.

/P&P;derail.

Comment #166: Karinna A.  on  11/17  at  06:53 PM

On the other hand, given what I have read of the Bennets, as people, they are dislikeable.

You’re right. I’m pretty sure that even Mr. Bennet (whom Lizzy clearly adores) is not objectively a good father/husband, and her younger sisters are incredibly annoying, to say nothing of her mother.  Even Lizzy knows that her mother and sisters generally lack sense - she tries to shut them up at various points throughout the novel.  I was referring more to his comments regarding her uncle the solicitor - which, now I recall, may have been made by Ms. Bingley to Darcy. But still, this was his proposal:

He spoke well, but there were feelings besides those of the heart to be detailed, and he was not more eloquent on the subject of tenderness than of pride. His sense of her inferiority—of its being a degradation—of the family obstacles which judgment had always opposed to inclination, were dwelt on with a warmth which seemed due to the consequence he was wounding, but was very unlikely to recommend his suit.

Comment #167: rivki  on  11/17  at  06:54 PM

Kodiak, that’s hilarious, because I’m afraid to get an ebook reader because then my excuse for not reading things like Infinite Jest and Pynchon and Proust (the books are physically too big and heavy to schlep around) will be discovered for the lie it is.

Comment #168: The Opoponax  on  11/17  at  06:56 PM

Mnemosyne @ 148:  I must now express my undying gratitude to you for pointing me to the OH JOHN RINGO NO essay.  That truly made my day. wink

Comment #169: Felix Culpa  on  11/17  at  06:57 PM

It’s one of the great internet essays, actually, and probably one of the most famous book reviews ever—at least among fans of a genre.

Comment #170: shah8  on  11/17  at  07:08 PM

I guess it could seem florid and clunky in general if you never read anything but The Hardy Boys until you had Steinbeck and Hemingway and other modernists thrown at you in high school, but…?  Maybe it’s a girl thing, cutting your teeth on Frances Hodgson Burnett and Louisa May Alcott?

That sounds doubtful, because I find the writing style florid and clunky and I cut my teeth on Frances Hodgson Burnett and Louisa May Alcott.  (What, you think they’re too tough for little boys?)  I loved “The Secret Garden”, and liked “A Little Princess” and most of Alcott’s work well enough, I guess, although I never re-read them, let alone re-read them dozens of times the way I did “The Secret Garden”.

Random guess here that I haven’t had a chance to think through, but it may be that the artificial and mannerized text of 19th century literature is often married to an artificial and mannerized worldview that doesn’t always translate well today.  For example, I find a lot of 18th century literature more accessible than the 19th century material that followed it, even though 18th century authors were hardly strangers to purple prose, because Voltaire’s and Swift’s and Fielding’s ideas and mentalities are in many ways more modern than those of, say, Henry James.

Comment #171: cminus  on  11/17  at  07:12 PM

Reading Bram-freaking-Stoker is like reading Mary-freaking-Shelley:  they came up with iconic characters but goddamn it’s a slog to get through the actual book.

As opposed to the Twilight series, which practically reads itself?

It may very well read itself.  I sure haven’t read it, after all. wink

Comment #172: cminus  on  11/17  at  07:14 PM

cminus, check it.  That’s really not a surprise.  Sydney Padua made similar comments wrt to clothing fashions in her blog/webcomic.  The French Revolution and the Napoleonic Wars did a huge number on the acceptability of modern sensibilities in Europe.

Comment #173: shah8  on  11/17  at  07:16 PM

the artificial and mannerized text of 19th century literature

This is kind of why I don’t get this particular point (a point made by many people, in this thread and out of it; I’m not picking on you, cminus).  Burnett is 19th century literature.  You simply can’t generalize that all 19th century literature is difficult to read because it is clunky, artificial, and/or florid.  Especially if you are then going to insist that you read and loved some 19th century works of literature.  Either you can generalize about the writing style of hundreds of authors over more than a century, or you can’t.

Comment #174: The Opoponax  on  11/17  at  07:24 PM

I’ve never been able to see Darcy as shy.  He isn’t at ease in some social situations, but neither is he a shrinking violet.  Especially because later in the novel, his sister is explicitly shown to be shy, but Elizabeth doesn’t make any connection between her shyness and his—indeed, she actually draws an explicit contrast between their natures.  IMO, Darcy is an entitled jerk who has to figure out how to treat even those he dislikes with respect.  That he does in the end is the fairytale.

It’s entirely possible that I read too much into it, but, as a person who’s struggled with shyness all my life, I know how people interpret it.  The more out of sorts I am, the more reserved I become, which often translates to my being more shy around people who are extremely extroverted and loud.  And, to be frank, loudness and extroversion are sometimes associated with people who are relatively poor or from a culture different from mine.  People have insulted me to my face because they associated my shyness with classism, racism, or general snobbery.

Sure, Darcy is fine with people of his own station, because people of his own station behave in a manner he’s accustomed to.  Put him in a room with boisterous country folk, and he won’t be able to deal, and, in keeping with his class and time, will likely behave badly.  But I guess I don’t see his graciousness to Lizzy’s middle class aunt and uncle as a reformation so much as a reserved person’s ability to be outgoing and friendly on a one-on-one basis.

Comment #175: keshmeshi  on  11/17  at  07:45 PM

I don’t really get why 19th century literary style is such a huge turnoff for people.  I mean, yeah, it’s “florid” compared to your typical paperback thriller, but so?  I mean, I’m not saying you have to like that period of literature if you just don’t, but I don’t really understand why people always point to writing style.  I guess it could seem florid and clunky in general if you never read anything but The Hardy Boys until you had Steinbeck and Hemingway and other modernists thrown at you in high school, but…?  Maybe it’s a girl thing, cutting your teeth on Frances Hodgson Burnett and Louisa May Alcott?

I have no problem with literature. Virginia Woolf, W.G. Sebald, Beckett, Camus, Dylan Thomas, Umberto Eco, Jose Saramago, Saul Bellow, Jean Giono, Borges, Cervantes, Maugham, Andre Breton, Kazantzakis, all the classics people are supposed to have read I’ve read and quite enjoyed (except Hemingway. Bleh). I just don’t like the 19th century’ style. I hate this idea that just because I don’t like your favorite literature that I must be an illiterate goober.

I admit, most of my hate is reserved for Dickens, who reads like a dictionary plotted by the writers of All My Children, but I couldn’t stand Melville, James Fenimore Cooper, Thomas Hardy, Hawthorne, Henry James, or Thoreau. I read them, I studied them, I decided several of them were objectively bad. Dull stories made worse by impenetrable, dull writing.

Comment #176: Egnu Cledge  on  11/17  at  07:55 PM

For the record I happen to LOVE 19th century style literature but I don’t think that everyone who doesn’t is neccessarily anti-books…my brother doesn’t share my love of 19th century literature but is huge fan of philosophical treatises, the Russians, and has read Nabakov’s works besides even Lolita.  I find such books rather tiresome myself and can’t STAND the Joyce style “inner monologue” approach to reading but I recognize that many others get good things out of them though I find them impossible-but at the same time I fell in love with “The Golden Notebook,” a book I know gives plenty of other readers trouble.  (And not just by misogynists who can’t handle the theme of female anger in the book)    I think sometimes literature does come down to a matter of personal taste and/or experience in what books we find most enjoyable and which mean the most to us… still that doesn’t mean we can’t have some objective standards and except for its generally strong depiction of the intensity of adolescent love, (boy do I remember that,) Twilight is just badly written.

Comment #177: winnie  on  11/17  at  08:05 PM

I don’t completely hate it, but from the point of view of this 21st century American so much of Western European and American (especially europhile American) 19th century literature uses such excessively and implausibly florid and overlong language that it operates under a self-inflicted literary handicap.

I call this the Hemingway Syndrome.  Taste is taste, yes, but it’s best to recognize that great literature and great style can come in both simple and “purple” form.  Wilde and Hemingway are BOTH poets and masters of language.  Not liking your prose either too-spare or too-florid may be a personal thing (I’m lucky enough to be able to appreciate and adore both), but the one is hardly a “handicap” or some kind of incompetency or indulgence.  It takes a lot of skill, actually, to be able to pull it off in either direction. And some of that purple stuff—de Quincey, for example—can take our breath away, intellectually and aesthetically.  Expertise comes in more than one form.

Pet peeve.  Carry on.

Comment #178: Ranylt  on  11/17  at  08:07 PM

On John Ringo, if you like the military part of military SF he’s pretty good at that.  He is very definitely a wingnut though, and his anti-liberal bias shines through very clearly whenever the chance occurs.  And while he is not a feminist, he does write some strong female characters.  Cally O’Neal is not a shrinking violet.

Comment #179: liberalrob  on  11/17  at  08:12 PM

I call this the Hemingway Syndrome.  Taste is taste, yes, but it’s best to recognize that great literature and great style can come in both simple and “purple” form.  Wilde and Hemingway are BOTH poets and masters of language.

Nah, I’m willing to say something sucks irredeemably if that’s what I think. Dickens => teh suck. Hemingway, too. Hemingway wrote stories for adult boys, except for OMATS which…look, if all you’ve done is change the names and locations of the christ story, you haven’t really written anything.

And cminus gets it right with the “artificial and mannerized” analysis.

Comment #180: Egnu Cledge  on  11/17  at  08:17 PM

Comment #151: Mnemosyne :

well, I was using “emotionally disturbed” as a catch-all - that’s not the relevant term, the relevant term is “Byronic Hero” - it’s a thing, you can look it up, and yes, I would say alcoholism would qualify. It’s the idea of the brooding, dark Romantic hero - the hero with problems. Romantic with a capital “R”

anyway, if people have more input on that, I"m still interested.

my 2 cents: these people who find 19th lit a “slog” are like the Emperor telling Mozart in Amadeus that there are “too many notes”. Too many words! Complex sentences!

Stuff we’re not used to anymore does take extra effort on our part, but it’s worth it. Try to view it in its historical context.

Comment #181: liviaclaudia  on  11/17  at  08:21 PM

You know what the appeal of Darcy is? He pulls his head out of his ass and apologizes. How often do women see that happening in real life? Probably not a whole lot. Otherwise, Darcy really isn’t a pleasant guy (sure, deep down, but it takes awhile for that to surface). It’s the same appeal as the line “You make me want to be a better man” in As Good As It Gets. It’s reforming the bad boy somewhat as well.

My best friend, who is more of an Austen fan than I, made me watch “Lost In Austen”, the British miniseries that boils down to “Mary Sue becomes Elizabeth Bennet and then royally craps up the entire novel.” It’s…dubiously bad for the most part to me, but even Mary Sue finds Darcy to be quite the ass and loses the bloom off her rose for him for awhile. (Though his falling in love with Amanda/Mary Sue instead is pretty well inexplicable other than “the plot says I have to.”) She does comment on how he’s essentially a useless human being without a job and Darcy brags that that’s the point of the existence of the upper class. Not something that flies so much in our era.

Comment #182: Jennifer  on  11/17  at  08:23 PM

my 2 cents: these people who find 19th lit a “slog” are like the Emperor telling Mozart in Amadeus that there are “too many notes”. Too many words! Complex sentences!

Fuck it. I give up. You’re right. I’ll go back to reading my novelizations of the Scooby Doo movies now.

Comment #183: Egnu Cledge  on  11/17  at  08:36 PM

And so is Northanger Abbey, but no one else seems to have read it.

I have, and it’s one of my favorite books!

Comment #184: elgie  on  11/17  at  08:55 PM

Random guess here that I haven’t had a chance to think through, but it may be that the artificial and mannerized text of 19th century literature is often married to an artificial and mannerized worldview that doesn’t always translate well today.  For example, I find a lot of 18th century literature more accessible than the 19th century material that followed it, even though 18th century authors were hardly strangers to purple prose, because Voltaire’s and Swift’s and Fielding’s ideas and mentalities are in many ways more modern than those of, say, Henry James.

The Regency period in England has gotten mentioned a couple of times as a popular setting for romances and mysteries (mostly by me wink ), and one of the reasons for that is that it was a transitional period between the rollicking Georgians of the 18th century and the staid Victorians of the 19th, so you can have some culture clash within your story.  The Victorian period really was one of regression in many ways.  Can you imagine Mary Wollstonecraft running around Victorian England, illegitimate daughter in tow, trying to sell her manuscript of “A Vindication of the Rights of Woman”?

Comment #185: Mnemosyne  on  11/17  at  09:04 PM

well, I was using “emotionally disturbed” as a catch-all - that’s not the relevant term, the relevant term is “Byronic Hero” - it’s a thing, you can look it up, and yes, I would say alcoholism would qualify.

Gee, thank you for explaining it, because as you know I could not have possibly encountered the term “Byronic hero” before in my years of reading, especially reading romance novels.

/eyeroll

If you mean “Byronic hero,” then say “Byronic hero.”  Don’t use another term and then get huffy about it.  We’re all literate here.

Comment #186: Mnemosyne  on  11/17  at  09:07 PM

Well, then, I must be a complete redneck because I do not believe men have a “right” to watch all sorts of trashy porn in which women are routinely degraded and humiliated and treated as disposable objects, without their “general good taste” being questioned. Moreover, men who watch such crap and get off on it are misogynists.

Thank you, #101. I was wondering if I was the only one who noticed that. The pro-d00d-pr0n schtick is one of the major things I disagree with a lot of other feminists on.

Comment #187: Princess Rot  on  11/17  at  09:10 PM

As I recall, John Ringo gave permission for a line of OH JOHN RINGO NO shirts (and other merchandise?) with proceeds going to organizations that help trafficked women. And I believe the proceeds going to that exact cause was his idea. So, you know. Wingnut yes, but not among the more evil of the breed.

Comment #188: kristin  on  11/17  at  09:16 PM

Comment #187: Mnemosyne:

hey, no offense! I *did* say Byronic hero like 3 times in my original post, which is why I thought it strange you latched onto the other term that wasn’t as relevant.

But whatever.

Comment #189: liviaclaudia  on  11/17  at  09:22 PM

hey, no offense!

Maybe next time don’t say, “you can look it up.”  I am familiar with the term, and I was pointing out how the archetype has evolved in modern romance novels from the original.  But, hey, whatever, please continue treating me like I’m subliterate.

Comment #190: Mnemosyne  on  11/17  at  09:26 PM

Here’s what I originally wrote:
“It’s long been recognized that Dracula and all the vampires that follow, are variations of the Byronic Hero. Mr Darcy is not a Byronic hero - he’s too even-keeled. Heathcliff is pointed to as one of the first, and the quintessential Byronic hero.
I’ve been wondering (have no idea) if modern romances are hesitant to use Byronic (emotionally disturbed) heroes in their romances because they are so complicated and detrimental to liberated women.
Is the vampire filling this gap? His supernaturalness giving him an excuse to be Byronic, whereas regular men cannot get away with it anymore?”

There seems to have been a misunderstanding, is all. People sure get all mad quickly around here!

Comment #191: liviaclaudia  on  11/17  at  09:27 PM

Maybe I’m the only one, but Twilight is just a giant Mary Sue novel, plain and simple, written by somebody who has a particularly repressive view of sex and traditional gender roles. Awkward highschool girl (Meyer) meets a guy and she’s the only one who he can’t figure out (she IS special, he’s the only one who can see it - we all know this about ourselves, right?), they start to date, they dry-hump, get frightened by the implications of teh Hormones, mix their messages, break up, get back together, and - like good Mormons - marry young, have awkward painful virgin-on-virgin sex, make babies, and then she is suddenly TRANSFORMED into this amazing creature with an amazing offspring who is amazing, and clearly Meyer didn’t have an epidural to judge from the whole being chewed from the inside out pregnancy… But it’s OK, because in the end Meyer, er, Bella, saves them all with her special brain that only her husband recognized at first (ie: sits down and writes some books that sell millions and make her a gajillionaire and, because of 10% tithing, also help build a new Temple or two…) I don’t think it’s much more complex than that, honestly…

Comment #192: ReneeS  on  11/17  at  09:29 PM

I have complete respect for your knowledge of romance novels. Relaaaaax!

Comment #193: liviaclaudia  on  11/17  at  09:29 PM

Oh, also: The Abridged Twilight at the Editing Room is hilarious:

KRISTEN STEWART: Hey, where did you go? Because you are exceedingly mean to me, I find myself attracted to you.

ROBERT PATTINSON: Sounds like textbook daddy issues, you fat cow.

KRISTEN STEWART: (swoon)

Comment #194: ReneeS  on  11/17  at  09:38 PM

“Is the vampire filling this gap? His supernaturalness giving him an excuse to be Byronic, whereas regular men cannot get away with it anymore?”

Yes, I think so.  Also, the goalposts have moved, when it comes to why people want Byronic heroes and the coercive sex/rape that was in so many ‘80’s romance novels.  A lot of the latter was very much in response to women still feeling conflicted about their right to enjoy sex.  As icky as those scenes were, and as glad as I am to see them gone, part of the reason why they were popular was because the coercion allowed many women to feel less guilty about enjoying erotica/porn/whatever.

If you read the later Anita Blake novels, it’s pretty damn clear that the whole point of the supernaturalness is now to give Anita (and her fans) an excuse to become comfortable with sex that is not 1 man, 1 woman, missionary, and the one true love.

Twilight, having been originally marketed and made popular by teen girls, is all about the sexual desire that girls feel but are so often told they can’t/shouldn’t express.  I think that’s why the abstinence doesn’t bother them, but the horrific sex and the imprinting and the like do.  Because a lot of them aren’t actually ready for sex, but still kinda want it and yet feel guilty for wanting it (so stalker Edward acts very much like the rapey heroes in older romance novels), but that doesn’t mean they are ok with scary and not fun sex being celebrated and treated as an ideal.

I can’t explain why so many adult women love the Twilight series, but I think the appeal for Twilight among teens - especially the first book - makes more sense if you’ve read a lot of recent teen lit and have seen how easily and readily parents freak out over sex in teen lit for girls.

The high school and college age girls that work for me and adore Twilight all come from more conservative families - but are not as conservative as their parents (as is often the case).  They get all giggly over Twilight and Edward the way that girls get giggly over sex the world over.  BUT they all have series issues with how the series ended.

Comment #195: jennygadget  on  11/17  at  10:14 PM

Yeah, but Bella DOES want sex. She begs Edward for sex. He refuses her. He controls her sexuality completely - it’s not that he doesn’t want to, either, but he is refraining because he is (patronizingly) looking out for her “well-being.” He makes the choice for her and in spite of her continual requests that he just fuck her already. He makes her wait until they’re married. How do we interpret that? That she really wasn’t ready and he’s saving her from herself? That Meyer is making it safe for her to want sex because she won’t get it? I’m not sure.

Comment #196: ReneeS  on  11/17  at  10:32 PM

I have no problem with literature. Virginia Woolf, W.G. Sebald, Beckett, Camus, Dylan Thomas, Umberto Eco, Jose Saramago, Saul Bellow, Jean Giono, Borges, Cervantes, Maugham, Andre Breton, Kazantzakis, all the classics people are supposed to have read I’ve read and quite enjoyed (except Hemingway. Bleh).

Though you clearly do have a problem with reading comprehension, since nothing I said even remotely resembled “people who don’t like Regency/Romantic/Victorian literature are anti-literature”. 

My point was that, since a great many of us practically learned to read via 19th century “florid” “clunky” “stilted” literature, I don’t quite understand the assertion (from, again MANY people I have encountered) that the STYLE is a turnoff.  If 19th century fiction can be generalized to use an identifiably “purple” prose style which is difficult/off-putting for a large percentage of adults to read, then how the hell did such a huge number of kids manage to write book reports on Little Women and The Secret Garden

I’ll agree that there are stylistic/prose differences between your typical 19th century novel and your typical 20th century novel, and those differences can sometimes take a little getting used to, especially for the first 10 minutes or so that you pick up the book.  And, yeah, obviously there are plenty of books in the canon that are boring or sucky or have plots so antiquated that nobody wants to read them anymore.  And nobody is required to like any literary tradition they don’t want to like. 

But I’ll also say that literature was redeemed for me in 9th grade when, after a disappointing encounter with Steinbeck’s The Pearl, the next book we were assigned was A Tale of Two Cities—that was the moment that I discovered that an old dense book from a zillion years ago about boring people with incomprehensible social customs could actually turn out to be a total page-turner.  And that I once sat up all night on a train reading Emma after spending years mocking the whole Austen oeuvre.  I also remember long hours curled up with Anna Karenina wondering What Will Happen Next as if it were an episode of Mad Men.

Again, you don’t have to like anything that doesn’t come naturally.  But no, there is really nothing inherently inferior or incomprehensible or stuffy about 19th century literature.  Sometimes it’s actually enjoyable, just for its own sake.  And I’m not a literary elitist or canon-whore for thinking that.

Comment #197: The Opoponax  on  11/18  at  12:05 AM

Though you clearly do have a problem with reading comprehension, since nothing I said even remotely resembled “people who don’t like Regency/Romantic/Victorian literature are anti-literature”.

No, you said:

I guess it could seem florid and clunky in general if you never read anything but The Hardy Boys until you had Steinbeck and Hemingway and other modernists thrown at you in high school, but…?

Which I took as you saying that people who didn’t enjoy that style couldn’t handle difficult, adult literature. My response was simply to say that I do, in fact, read above a third grade level.

Jumping Jesus on a pogo stick, nothing stirs up more shit here than people getting offended because someone else doesn’t like the same type of literature or music. I said from the beginning it was a personal preference. If you, or anyone, loves it, then more power to you. Some of it I find off putting but historically important, some of it just stinks out loud.

Again, you don’t have to like anything that doesn’t come naturally.

But please, continue to imply that I don’t like those authors because it’s just too hard for my widdle brain to comprehend.

Comment #198: Egnu Cledge  on  11/18  at  12:21 AM

Which I took as you saying that people who didn’t enjoy that style couldn’t handle difficult, adult literature.

Which you took wrong.  For one thing, if you want to think Hemingway and Steinbeck aren’t serious adult literature, you can go right ahead.  It’s you who is ascribing value judgments here, not me.  What I meant, as I have said several times right here in this thread, is that most children are exposed to all this indecipherably stilted 19th century prose as they learn to read.  So I don’t really understand what adults find so difficult about it.

people getting offended because someone else doesn’t like the same type of literature or music.

I’m not at all offended that you “don’t like the same type of literature or music”.  For one, I’m no huge fan of the Victorians (or the Romantics, or the Regency period, for that matter).  I read a little bit of everything, in most genres.  It doesn’t bother me at all that you dislike 19th century literature—I don’t know you and really don’t give two craps what’s lining your bookshelves as long as it isn’t The Turner Diaries and/or Mein Kampf. 

What is bugging me (which btw is largely academic, because again this is the internet and I really don’t care who likes which literary movements) is something I’ve often heard about 19th century canonical literature.  That it’s bad because of the style it’s written in.  Or worse, that it’s bad because the reader doesn’t understand the context, or isn’t willing to read the book on its own terms.  Which I find to be kind of a ridiculous argument.  If you don’t like a genre, fine, whatever.  It’s when you start justifying your opinion as The Ultimate Correct Truth that I get annoyed.

Comment #199: The Opoponax  on  11/18  at  01:03 AM

What is it about a girl sitting on the subway minding her own business that makes people want to interrupt her book to enlighten her? sigh.

Because subways are public places, and the function of women in public spaces is to be judged by men. (LOUDLY, apparently.) Why else would we be outside the kitchen?

Street harrassment is one of my biggest pet peeves ever. How fucking hard is it to NOT get all up in the faces of total strangers who are doing nothing to you?

That Meyer is making it safe for her to want sex because she won’t get it?

I think that is it, actually. Edward’s controllingness is certainly problematic, but it’s almost the polar opposite of the sort of problematic that girls have to actually deal with on a regular basis (ie, being expected to give it up or they’re a prude/no fun/don’t really love their bf, but then if anything bad happens to them ever or their boyfriend ever does anything remotely douchey ever it’s because they’re a stupid little slut and what did they expect), so I think it’s still a fantasy of foisting the crapwork of the relationship onto someone else.

Frankly, I also think some of why this works is rooted in what someone mentioned above about becoming aware of sexual predatoriness—with the fucked-up way our culture portrays sexuality, I think a lot of girls understand sexual predation and sexual objectification much better than they understand respectful human desire (and I mean understand emotionally, not intellectually—that they feel preyed on and it sucks, that they feel objectified and it sucks, but if anyone genuinely fancies them they’ll just continue to feel preyed on and objectified because that’s what normally happens). When people wanting to have sex with you feels inherently dangerous and degrading, then people actively trying to not have sex with you starts to look like the wonderfullest thing ever.

Comment #200: thecynicalromantic  on  11/18  at  02:01 AM

When people wanting to have sex with you feels inherently dangerous and degrading, then people actively trying to not have sex with you starts to look like the wonderfullest thing ever.

This is a great point.  It’s pretty hard to find a girl who has never—not once—had to deal with unwanted sexual attention as a teenager.  When you’re getting hooted at by construction workers on your way to school, a guy paying attention to you but not immediately turning the conversation to how much he wants to fuck you is a precious thing.

Comment #201: Mnemosyne  on  11/18  at  03:35 AM

It seems that one of the reasons for Twilight’s popularity as wish fulfillment as well as it’s inscrutability in that department by critics is that Meyer manged to strike a chord that appeals to the fantasies of middle class and lower middle class readers which does not resonate in the minds of the upper middle class critics.

There’s a lot of that in the Left Behind books, where the characters’ glamorous lifestyles are represented by loving descriptions of first-class airline flights, taxi rides, visits to New York and Chicago, and expensive suits.  In other words, not stuff that has much to do with the lives of actual upper-class people (except for the expensive suits), but things middle-class people without much imagination might envy and wish to experience.  There seems to be an art to striking just the right level of class aspiration.

Comment #202: Shaenon  on  11/18  at  03:37 AM

There’s a lot of that in the Left Behind books, where the characters’ glamorous lifestyles are represented by loving descriptions of first-class airline flights, taxi rides, visits to New York and Chicago, and expensive suits.

That immediately reminded me of this post by Fred Clark, where he points out that Jenkins & LaHaye are using those scenes to the opposite effect of the usual way they’re used in pop culture.

Comment #203: Mnemosyne  on  11/18  at  04:13 AM

my 2 cents: these people who find 19th lit a “slog” are like the Emperor telling Mozart in Amadeus that there are “too many notes”. Too many words! Complex sentences!

Heard similar arguments to excuse classical/jazz snobs openly trashing people who love/prefer modern musical genres….especially those after the mid-1950’s…..or academics/grad students to excuse their love for using excessively convoluted verbose writing styles in their published academic works or papers when the real issue is the usage of specialized knowledge elite, obscurantism in communicating said knowledge to novices/uninitiated, and pretentious puffery to make themselves seem more intellectual and sophisticated than they may actually be…..

Comment #204: exholt  on  11/18  at  04:21 AM

the twilight books horrify me.

precisely because they are so very compelling.

i cannot even remember how many times i have thrown them across the room. i literally destroyed my first copy of the 4th book because it enraged me that much. and promptly went out and bought a new copy, so i could finish it.

Cynicalromanitic and Mnemosyne get it really, really, really right.
i have heard guys, not “NiceGuys” but acual guys i am friends with, whom i would classify as feminist-mind, explain how guys find it almost impossible to NOT think about any random female as sexual. as in, even if that woman is *not* a woman they want to have sex with, even if it’s a woman they hate, or a woman they feel is closer than a sister - they never get rid of some sort of pressure to think about that woman sexually. it’s probably why there is the stereotype of the “gay best friend” as the *only* guy a woman manages to have pure [unadulterated by sexual feelings] relationship.

i don’t know about anyone else, although i could guess based on thousands of conversations - i know *I* get tired of it. i get tired of hanging with a buddy who randomly starts checking my tits, or who can’t stop dropping “hints”, can’t avoid certain topics…
so Edward, doing all the working of saying “No” - that’s why i kept coming back. why i read all of them [well, and also because i wanted Bella to DO SOMETHING for fuck’s sake…]

that constant, unremitant and universal “push” to conform, to be sexy, to give, to do X and Y and Z - unrelenting pressure.
and here were these books, written by a freaking MORMON, that were preaching “DON’T PUSH GUYS”. yeah, they weren’t written for GUYS, i get that. i get that they are breathtakingly sexists from page one. they totally are; hence the throwing and destroying.
but, mixed in with all the fucking bullshit, there’s this little message, the SOLE, single redeeming factor of this books:
you CAN wait.

not “you *have* to wait until marriage” not “having sex is wrong” not “sex will make him not love you” not “you have to give him *something* to “keep” him” not “tease X amount to keep his interest, but no more than X because once he gets it he’ll run, having used you and now done with you”
and NOT an overt “sex is bad” that happens so fucking often in books that have a market that includes children [teens. non-adults] yes, the theme was “don’t have sex”, and there was a heavy dose of “sex will destroy [kill] you”. there are so many things wrong with these books that i could type for the next decade and not be done.

but they said that ONE thing. in a way that teens can believe.
the books said “if he really *DOES* love you, he won’t pressure you at all to have sex. if he REALLY loves you, HE will want to wait until it’s “safe” [marriage, or whatever else “safe” may mean]. if he REALLY loves you, he’ll stay even if you never have sex at all.

i don’t think people should HAVE to wait for marriage to have sex - some people may want to, and kudos to them, but then again kudos because it is their choice and they are doing what they chose - but i *DO* think people need to wait until they feel that THEY are ready. dating makes this really, really hard, because of the social narrative that surrounds dating; dating is what a guy does to “earn” sex, and most people have this expectation that after X amount of effort of the part of the guy, sex is “won”. these are ALL incredibly fucked up narratives [and COMPLETELY ignore anything but TOTAL heterosexuality. at best, it shoehorns other sexual expression into this same dynamic of social norms and expectations]

so it was totally shocking - and really, personally horrifying to me - to feel so compelled to read these books i *hate* on most levels. playing house-wife to your dad because you are removing yourself from your mother’s care because *you* are just that incredibly self-less that you feel it’s more important your mother “get” travel with her new husband than to “impose” on her new happyness in any way [and, btw, WTF?!?! isn’t Bella 16 or 17 in the books? she’s 17 in the beginning, i’m 99.9% sure; she has stated that SHE took care of all the responsibilities. but she couldn’t stay at home while her mom traveled? WTF] having for a boyfriend [somehow, by accident, i guess] a vampire who is a WRONG vampire, overly protective and controlling, who BOUGHT WD-40 to make it easier to SNEAK INTO YOUR BEDROOM AND WATCH YOU SLEEP. all the creepy, horrific, chauvinistic, sexist, classist, every-ist really, things -
but they let girls, girls who are commodified from birth on, know that they *CAN* wait to have sex until THEY are ready.

PRICELESS.

i just wish the rest of the crap wasn’t there :(

Comment #205: denelian  on  11/18  at  05:17 AM

So, anyone have any opinion on Meyer’s book for grownups, The Host?

Comment #206: Mandos  on  11/18  at  05:49 AM

that book was actually decent, in a continuing “women don’ own themselves” fashion, but at east it was SHARED by men too.
a lot of potiental, there. sucky writng.

Comment #207: denelian  on  11/18  at  06:56 AM

The day Twilight was released on video, I visited a friend who had it running on her computer.  “I didn’t know you were a fourteen-year-old girl,” I said.  “I know,” she blushed.  We then got into a long discussion about books we read that we don’t completely publicly admit to liking.  I’ve read enough fantasy epics of pubescent boys who are prophecy-fulfilling agents of change with the help of their companions Hot Able Girl, Wizened Old Man Guy, and Warrior-With-Dark-Past Person.  I’ve read the backstory of all the characters in the Star Wars Cantina.  I can’t explain why I enjoy reading Robert Holdstock’s books, especially since his magical world is so dark and wet and dangerous.  I read Glen Cook and Steven Erikson.  In general, I read a lot of boy crap.  She reads lots of girl crap.  But the “problem” goes deeper than that.

People here are admitting to not reading certain genres.  I do that, too.  I read the occasional not-quite-this-or-that-genre book, but pretty much stick to scifi/fantasy and some basic literature stuff (Wodehouse, Irving, Tyler, stuff like that.)  Most people have “their” section, though they can be persuaded to branch out now and then (World War Z is a great crossover book.)  I noticed the mystery section of my libraries weren’t getting much use, so I mixed the suspense with mystery and many female authors were suddenly read a lot more (the difference between the suspense and mystery genres is generally the authors’ genitalia.)  I wanted to combine all the fiction into one section, but the fantasy readers and the old men who read the racy western series (they’re romance books with a few gunfights and two or three sex scenes) didn’t want that.  It’ll happen eventually.

The problem many people have with the Twilight series is that it and many similar series have made the young adult section of big bookstores into the not-overtly-sexual vampire section.  Vampires and teenage girls don’t make for the best role-models for living, not that teen fiction ever was the guidebook to life many wanted it to be.  But still: girls (mostly, though I have to say that the inmates at the men’s prison request it all the time) are reading crap and getting crappy messages about life.  I’m a big advocate of the old adage that it’s good that kids read and they can develop taste later, but it’s about time girls are taught something other than Someday My Sparkly Prince Will Come (and not in THAT way.)

Comment #208: 3letterjon  on  11/18  at  07:31 AM

Nah, I’m willing to say something sucks irredeemably if that’s what I think.

That’s not what my post was saying.  I wasn’t referring to Egnu hating one particular author—which is completely understandable, though always personal—but the guy who dismissed the English writing of an entire century as bad. That’s so close to trolling I probably shouldn’t have even bothered.  Nor was I referring at all to content, theme, story, structure (so what’s Hemingway’s subject matter got to do with it?), but style.  Only prose style.  I am defending a variety of prose styles—I even demand that variety. Opponax in recent comments seems to be on the same page as me, and probably explains it better.

I’m off to go read Carlyle now for some incredibly masterful florid prose that grabs me by the throat and heart.  Or De Quincey’s “prose poetry”.

Comment #209: Ranylt  on  11/18  at  09:39 AM

This is kind of why I don’t get this particular point (a point made by many people, in this thread and out of it; I’m not picking on you, cminus).  Burnett is 19th century literature.  You simply can’t generalize that all 19th century literature is difficult to read because it is clunky, artificial, and/or florid.  Especially if you are then going to insist that you read and loved some 19th century works of literature.  Either you can generalize about the writing style of hundreds of authors over more than a century, or you can’t.

Which would be why I began my very first comment on this topic by saying that I do not hate all 19th century literature, and praising some 19th century authors for being able to come up with language that conforms to 19th century standards while still managing to flow.  (I also specified that I was referring to literature of western Europe and America, since I don’t know enough about 19th century literature from other parts of the world.)  I find the 19th century style a literary handicap, in the sense that playing chess while spotting your opponent a bishop is a handicap—it makes it harder, but you can still win.

Comment #210: cminus  on  11/18  at  09:55 AM

I find the 19th century style a literary handicap, in the sense that playing chess while spotting your opponent a bishop is a handicap—it makes it harder, but you can still win.

I personally don’t think it’s that severe a situation, but I think this is a much more reasonable statement, cminus (and thanks for clarifying my misunderstanding).  Fair enough.

Comment #211: Ranylt  on  11/18  at  10:15 AM

Bringing together several strands present in this thread:

Raymond Chandler  The Simple Art of Murder

Fiction in any form has always intended to be realistic.<u> Old-fashioned novels which now seem stilted and artificial to the point of burlesque did not appear that way to the people who first read them.</u> Writers like Fielding and Smollett could seem realistic in the modern sense because they dealt largely with uninhibited characters, many of whom were about two jumps ahead of the police, but Jane Austen’s chronicles of highly inhibited people against a background of rural gentility seem real enough psychologically. There is plenty of that kind of social and emotional hypocrisy around today.

Wiki Link

Comment #212: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/18  at  10:36 AM

Amanda, I have missed the whole “Twilight” phenomena, but I think you’ve hit the nail on the head here about romance novels in general being “porn” for women. What we’re taught to want in this society (maybe not as much today as when I was a kid) is that along will come the perfect man…and of course the perfect man is one who loves us unconditionally, takes care of us, is always faithful, etc., etc. Who wouldnt want that? Unfortunately, I think that fantasy ruins as many relationships as the male porn fantasy of women does. No one is *ever* really going to love you unconditionally (maybe your mom and dad), and no one is going to be perfectly in tune with you all the time.

I’m 51, divorced once many years ago, and have remained single. I sometimes wonder if part if it is the expectations I developed as a young teen reading all those slightly racy romance novels my mother left lying around.

On the Vampire thing - I remember one…gods, this was a second hand book my mother picked up back sometime in the 1970s called “The Red Wine of Rapture” or something like that. The heroine, naturally was a governess IIRC. And the “hero” was a very charming and sexy vampire for whom she went to work, naturally not knowing he was a vampire. I don’t remember it being terribly well written, but it did stay with me. I think I was probably 12 or 14 when I read it.

Comment #213: Broce  on  11/18  at  10:38 AM

Broce, I wonder how many men grew up on tales where they were the chosen one, have been conditioned to believe that they deserve world-wide acclaim for saving everything all because of how special they are, and have stunted lives because of that.  Not that there isn’t a social structure that tells boys they’re special even without avatars in fantasy novels being the substitute special one, and not that there aren’t plenty of social messages that suggest girls should wait for their special one to arrive, but adolescent fiction certainly has a lot of that crap.  Back in the 70s, this You Are Special thing was in full-force, and I’m sure it has something to do with Nice Guys, Rules Girls, and all the other garbage preceding generations had but maybe not in such quantity.

Comment #214: 3letterjon  on  11/18  at  11:10 AM

I’ve been in love with every actor who has played Darcy, especially Matthew Macfadyen from that gawd awful movie version with Keira Knightley. I can’t be objective about the book until they cast someone for the part that I don’t find hot.

Have you seen him in the BBC Little Dorrit mini-series?

Comment #215: hp  on  11/18  at  11:46 AM

that book was actually decent, in a continuing “women don’ own themselves” fashion, but at east it was SHARED by men too.
a lot of potiental, there. sucky writng.

Yeah, I thought so too, the premise was nice especially the eerie normality of life after the takeover.  ie, Wanderer still drives her car to McDonald’s.  Or rather, Wanderer drives Melanie to drive her car to McDonald’s…

Comment #216: Mandos  on  11/18  at  01:11 PM

In defense of Mr. Darcy and Elizabeth here, I think what makes them admirable is not that they ever become ideal paragons of virtue and fairness, but that over the course of the novel, they actually question their original assumptions and change their minds when their points of view are challenged. The assholes of the novel are Lady Catherine, Mr. Collins, and Caroline Bingley who never see beyond their class prejudices.

I’m quite willing to forgive Austin her regressive classism in regards to Darcy given the context of English politics in the wake of the American and French revolutions. It’s fairly clear to me that Austin’s narrative is supportive of the sentiment that the maintenance of class hierarchies was the moral and cultural backbone of England. Darcy’s reconsideration of the elder Bennet sisters for their virtues and more respectful manners towards the lesser entitled is framed as noblesse oblige. Again, a foil here is Lady Catherine who offers only the appearance of respect and civility only towards those who favor her with flattery.

In regards to Twilight, I think it’s the case that romance plots or subplots centered on the man who is destined for the heroine have become something of a staple of mystery and contemporary fantasy. I’m less convinced that the whole thing is necessarily about monogamy because many of these plotlines explicitly are not monogamous.  But there is definitely something there about a male figure who is fairly dependable at having the heroine’s back in conflict after conflict while pursuing an extended and sometimes reluctant courtship.

Comment #217: CBrachyrhynchos  on  11/18  at  01:22 PM

Heathcliff is pointed to as one of the first, and the quintessential Byronic hero.

Except that the term “Byronic hero” describes characters from Lord Byron’s works.  Heathcliff comes along 30 or so years later.  /end lit lecture

What I don’t understand is why people view Edward as romantic.  I kept wanting to slap that smirk off his face.

Comment #218: Susa  on  11/18  at  01:24 PM

a bit late to the discussion. Somewhere up above Amanda wrote:

Apologies for my mistake.  If romance novels aren’t as rape-happy as they used to be, that helps explain Twilight’s success, I’d say.  Filling the gap for women who want some coercion in their fantasies.

I have to say that though I haven’t read current romance novels, and don’t doubt they’ve moved on from the rapey past, this certainly isn’t the case if you’ve read any romantic (het) fanfiction, where coercion and borderline assault as romance are alive and kicking. I can’t even blame this on the authors’ ideas of romance being formed by that older romance novel trope, because many of these writers are young women (Twilight’s target demographic, even) and this theme in fanfic predates Twilight’s popularity.

You’d hope that when women can write out their fantasies freely they wouldn’t repeat these really disturbing themes where the female character is passive and must be pushed into sex by the aggressive male character, often with outright stalker tendencies, but in most fandoms it’s the norm rather than the exception, from my experience.

All this to agree with Amanda that maybe Twilight is filling a vacuum. And these messages about how women and men should “romantically” interact are certainly not limited to the oldschool romance novel, since they’re repeated again and again by girls and women who have not necessarily had any exposure to them.

Comment #219: amonitrate  on  11/18  at  01:56 PM

“That would be like me reading Heinlein at the same age and deciding that all science fiction is sexist claptrap with weird fascist undertones.”

Ah, Mnemosyne, you read “Podkayne of Mars” too?  Bleecch ... Although I was 15 when I first read Starship Troopers (how the movie disappointed, regardless of how hot Casper Van Dien was), and was met with the idea that women made better starship pilots because of their multi-tasking abilities and fine motor control.  She was a minor character, but obviously not a reward for the hero.  In fact, the bit where Our Hero’s buddies were all jealous of him because she showed up and asked him to dinner, gave me a model showing me it was okay to be *smart* and *capable* and to go after what I wanted.  The sequence where the pilot waited for 30 minutes, doing *all the math in her head* and on the fly, because she was NOT going to leave “her” soldiers behind, really hit me.  Because it was what I would have at least *wanted* to do (I have no illusions about my abilities). 

I admit I prefer David Drake if I’m going to read sci-fi war novels, though.  I especially enjoy his “Hammer’s Slammers” novels.  Personal favorite:  Rolling Hot.  Favorite character:  Capt. June “Junebug” Ranson, who is suffering from PTSD and still has to lead a mission, all the while knowing she is “bleeding bughouse crazy” and forcing herself to compensate for it.  I love her because she is NOT a “man with tits”, like so many female soldier/warrior types - she is a woman, all the while being a soldier through and through.  Great book!

As far as vampire stuff goes, though - I think the last vampire novel I really enjoyed was The Vampire Lestat.  And while the movie is based on the stage play (so all the names are completely f’d up), I really love Frank Langella’s Dracula (and I have a *ton* of Dracula movies).  I saw that movie in the theatre when it was first released (yep, 1979), and what was funny was the ladies’ restroom afterwards.  Every woman in there was “Oh, HELL, yeah - he could bite me anytime he wants!” and all the men standing around outside were going “Dracula was kinda wussy, wasn’t he?”  Hilarious!

Comment #220: Mhorag  on  11/18  at  02:26 PM

I have to say that though I haven’t read current romance novels, and don’t doubt they’ve moved on from the rapey past, this certainly isn’t the case if you’ve read any romantic (het) fanfiction, where coercion and borderline assault as romance are alive and kicking.

I think that’s a big part of the misunderstanding here.  Modern romance fiction is not, for the most part, all about the sex.  I suppose you could call it relationship porn in some way, but it really isn’t primarily focused on the sex.  There are many other outlets for porn (like fanfic) and that’s where the more porn-y tropes have gone to live.

Amanda wondered why romance readers don’t like Twilight but ignored the obvious answer:  because Twilight isn’t like modern romance fiction.  It lacks the most common tropes and bears only the most superficial resemblance to what romance readers actually want to read.  It’s like wondering why mystery fans don’t think that The DaVinci Code is the greatest book ever written.  After all, it’s a mystery, right?  And it’s a bestseller, right?  So of course mystery fans must love it, even though it’s poorly-written crap that doesn’t follow the conventions of the genre.

Comment #221: Mnemosyne  on  11/18  at  03:13 PM

““When people wanting to have sex with you feels inherently dangerous and degrading, then people actively trying to not have sex with you starts to look like the wonderfullest thing ever.”

“This is a great point.  It’s pretty hard to find a girl who has never—not once—had to deal with unwanted sexual attention as a teenager.  When you’re getting hooted at by construction workers on your way to school, a guy paying attention to you but not immediately turning the conversation to how much he wants to fuck you is a precious thing.”“

Yeah.  I don’t think this can be stressed enough actually.  It’s important to note (as others already have) that while Edward is very stalkery, he spends a great deal of time arguing that they can’t have sex because he cares for her too much.  Which lets Bella then get to argue that she does want sex! without feeling like a slut.

ReneeS,

How I’ve interpreted it is that the girls reading it feel sexual desire (that they don’t feel they can safely express and sometimes feel dirty for even having), and are ready to explore sex in the sense of masturbating (but yet again, often feel shame about that) and figuring out what they want and maybe even fooling around quite a bit, but don’t feel at all ready for “sex” as it’s defined by the patriarchy and often really have no idea that other kinds of sex exists and most certainly don’t feel up to defining it and negotiating it with real live boys/men.

Also, and I really don’t think this can be stressed often enough and loudly enough either (although I know fewer people may agree with me), if I am right and most of the Twihards are interpreting the book this way, then the media popularity of Twilight is a validation (in a sense) of female teenaged sexual desire on a scale that we haven’t seen since girls fainted and screamed in public over Elvis and the Beatles.

It’s validation in a infatilizing way, to be sure.  But keep in mind that one of the fastest ways to get your teen lit book banned/challenged is to include a female protaganists that wants sex, has sex (even off stage), or even (perhaps especially) masturbates. The media *talks* about sex and teen girls a lot, but usually they talk about girls liking boys or wanting to be sexy for boys.  They talk about teen girls wanting sex even less than they talk about women wanting sex, and are even more likely to portray the teen girls as sluts/damaged if they do want sex.

But now the entire world is talking about Bella and Edward.  And girls get to talk about Twilight openly - it’s almost as good as getting to talk about all the stuff it represents to them openly.  Even better in some ways, because they can still hide under the pretense of true love when it all starts to feel too daring or unsafe or dirty.

Comment #222: jennygadget  on  11/18  at  05:58 PM

I mean understand emotionally, not intellectually—that they feel preyed on and it sucks, that they feel objectified and it sucks, but if anyone genuinely fancies them they’ll just continue to feel preyed on and objectified because that’s what normally happens

Yes, this.  I was well into my 20’s before I realized that someone brazenly suggesting that they want to have sex with you is not tangentially related to being stalked.  This isn’t to say that anyone who is open about wanting sex gets a pass, but it was a hard thing to untangle.

Comment #223: The Opoponax  on  11/18  at  08:49 PM

the BBC Little Dorrit mini-series

Which made me really curious to read Little Dorrit, even though the main things that intrigued me about the BBC’s take were A) the presence of my future wife, Eve Myles, and the fact that they altered/adapted a minor subplot to touch on racial issues in 19th century Britain, which is one of my pet subjects.  Neither of which will actually be present in Dickens’ novel But still.  Yay Eve Myles and color blind casting!

Comment #224: The Opoponax  on  11/18  at  08:54 PM

Twilight fan fiction also seems to have a monstrous life of its own, one that rivals only Star Trek fanfic in terms of popularity. Um…not that I really know anything about that.

Comment #225: keirdubois  on  11/19  at  12:23 AM
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