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Next entry: There are more Twinkies in America than dreamt of in your philosophy Previous entry: Bamboo Review: Scott Pilgrim vs. The World

The radicalizing effect of Dr. Laura

Dr. Laura has decided to end her radio show, citing the peculiar right wing interpretation of the First Amendment, which Michael Bérubé has kindly written out for us:

First Amendment.  Congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise of the Christian religion; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.  All but the first of the foregoing clauses may be refudiated in times of dire Emergency.  Most importantly, the right of conservatives to speak without being criticized for their views shall be respected at all times.

Emphasis mine.  Schlessinger made it clear she thought that her First Amendment rights were being trampled if people criticized her for yelling racial slurs at a black caller who had the audacity to think Schlessinger was a nice person who would offer advice.  Of course, as Jamelle Bouie points out, everyone focuses on specific words to the detriment of noticing their context, and he dryly joked in his post title, “When Racial Slurs are the Least Racist Thing About Your Rant, It’s a Pretty Racist Rant.”  I personally get bonkers when the focus is strictly on taboo words, because that means that bigots and misogynists get to claim innocence for promoting rancid ideas so long as they do so without stepping on taboo words.  Often, they just do this by making up new slurs, as Mark Williams has demonstrated a lot of initiative in doing.  It concerns me that Dr. Laura would have gotten off without much, if any criticism if she’d just avoiding the “N-word”, but said every other awful, racist thing she said to the woman who called her in good faith, asking for advice. 

But I come not to repeat the same old condemnations of Schlessinger.  I want to address something else Jamelle said in his post: “I was surprised to learn that Dr. Laura still had a radio show.”  I was well aware that Dr. Laura had a radio show, because the feminist media pays attention to her while most liberal media focuses its awe and outrage on mostly male figureheads like Limbaugh and Beck that are overtly political.  It’s interesting, because I think by putting most of our attention on overtly political talk radio, we’re actually missing out on a huge part of right wing media that is just as powerful—-in many ways, more powerful and influential—-than even the overt screaming political talk show hosts.  To really understand the conservative movement, you have to understand the self help/religious/family-oriented media.  They are the yin to the Limbaugh/Fox News yang.  Without them, the conservative movement would be nothing.

Here’s why: They are extremely good at radicalizing the troops, in ways that even the more overt right wing media isn’t.  They do so by positioning themselves as folks who are just trying to help.  They’re probably even more instrumental than the Limbaugh types in allowing their conservative followers to imagine themselves as the salt-of-the-earth humble rural types they imagine that they are.  The geographic stronghold of the right is the suburbs, of course, and that’s a way of living that is more isolated from your neighbors than either bona fide small town life or city life.  You have a lot of conservative types who have big houses with no real front yard and certainly no porch to speak of.  Most of their journeys outside of their home don’t even involve breathing the air around their homes—-they hop into their car in the garage and pull out into the street, creating an actual physical boundary between them and their supposed communities at all times.  While this isn’t the cause of their isolation, it really tends to drive home how isolated they are.  But this actual, experienced isolation conflicts with their self-image as old-fashioned Americans with small town values.  Actual small towns are places where everyone is up everyone else’s ass all the time, and there’s not a lot of being isolated from the community, for better or for worse.  The old systems of enforcing sexual and social control through gossip are removed from the suburban existence.  It’s hard to gossip about people you don’t know.


In steps folks like Dr. Laura, who create a virtual gossip mill that creates the illusion of being able to participate in that kind of judging your neighbors that is part of small town life.  Dr. Laura is a big one, but you have other advice shows and entire industries set up for it, like Focus on the Family.  And these media outlets can be radicalizing for a couple of reasons.  One is that they substitute for community judgments the judgment of the host.  There’s no cultural back-and-forth where more liberal members of a community can mediate the harsh judgments of the bigger assholes in a community.  And second of all, despite the intimate feeling of listening to the radio, the people on it are basically strangers.  When they call in or their stories are discussed, you aren’t privy to the various details of their life that might make their situations and decisions more understandable.  For example, in the beauty salon we used to hang out in the small town I grew up in, a discussion about whether or not to put a teenage girl on the birth control pill was mediated by the people involved knowing the girl, knowing her boyfriend, and sincerely caring enough about her future that the idea of her getting pregnant seemed more daunting than some abstract fears of sexy girls getting out of control.  On the radio, you have no such influences, so you can picture the situation in the most scandalous terms possible, and get crazy judgmental.  The consensus reached is often very different in these cases.  In my direct experience, the first situation is one where the general consensus was that there’s no reason not to put the girl on the pill, and in the second, well, there is no consensus.  The host will simply crack the whip and the people at home will nod along, furious at Girls These Days.

I used to have to work out in the suburbs in a job where I was spending a lot of time in my car at hours that weren’t the usual hours for the flaming asshole right wing talk show radio hosts, but were obviously considered the womanly hours.  And I would listen a lot to shows like Dr. Laura’s, out of masochism, boredom and curiosity.  What really impressed me was the full court press from not just the show, but the advertisers to emulate this kind of folksy, small town vibe.  Again, as I’m actually from a small town, it created dissonance for me because the whole thing was missing that je nais se quoi of real small town life, but it was clear to me that was what they were going for.  Dr. Laura tries to project this vibe as if she’s simply the president of the Junior League, except that she accidentally stepped into a radio show.  (I think this was part of why I thought that they failed at the vibe they were going for, because in real small towns, the big haired ladies who run everything are a completely different group from the people who you turn to for advice and solace. But like most of country music, right wing radio is about projecting an image, not emulating a reality.)  The ads usually featured actors having conversations that were clearly meant to evoke the same kind of image that Sarah Palin would have you believe her family life is like—-kids coming and going, neighbors dropping in, a community where everyone knows everyone. 

But some of the assumptions that were in play in these discussions didn’t resemble anything like the ones that would have been in play in my actual small town life with people coming and going. I remember one ad in particular that always struck me as weird, radical and not at all like the world I grew up in that they were trying to invoke for their audience.  It was an ad for some kind of acne pill or medication, and the premise was that a mother and daughter are talking about it.  We’re meant to assume they live in a tight-knit community, one where the mother knew the girl’s classmates, even if they weren’t the girl’s actual friends.  And the girl mentions someone—-maybe a teenager, but possibly not—-who takes a pill to control her acne.  The mother is aghast, because she assumes it’s the birth control pill.  But it’s not, it’s some other pill, the product being hawked.  End commercial.

I found this commercial baffling, because while in my small town you probably didn’t trumpet going on the pill as a teenager for contraceptive use, there wasn’t any shame in using it to control your acne.  The implication of the ad is that a good mother wouldn’t simply let her daughter go on the pill just because her face is exploding in zits that will scar her for life—-and that a mother who let her daughter go on the pill to control her acne would be the subject of gossip.  In my lived experience, however, a mother who didn’t take care of her daughter’s looks would have been the real object of scandalized gossip. Making sure your daughter wasn’t the object of mockery because of her horrible acne would have been considered a number one priority for a mother.  This isn’t necessarily admirable (though you’re hardly some shallow monster if you don’t want a bunch of acne scars), because the obsession with looks got way out of hand some times, but it is what it is—-the right wing fanatics that denied their daughters hair dressers, razors, fashionable clothes, or make-up, especially after a certain age, got the tongues clucking.  But this ad was normalizing the idea that contraception was so evil you couldn’t even it allow it in your house for the laudable goal of being considered attractive.  It’s just one example of how the premises of this specific kind of talk radio helped promote radical right wing ideas, by packaging them up as something “just folks” believe.  Even when, in real life, they didn’t. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 09:41 AM • (174) Comments

Wow. I used to listen to her way way way back when, but she was taken off the local station where I was and replaced with another counselor. Mainly because she’s just terrible at what she’s supposed to do. Typical right-wing stuff, shouting people down and all that instead of listening. Ideology over progress. Things like that.

I actually think most conservative talk radio tries to emulate that “folksy” style and it’s not limited to her show. I actually think probably most talk radio in general tries to do that, to be honest.

Comment #1: Karmakin  on  08/18  at  11:19 AM

Spot on, Amanda.

This fake-folksy stuff also allows the suburbanites to feel like they’re Real Americans(TM) like the ones who work farms and ranches, that they’re part of the rural life rather than the urban Evil Liberal Elite(TM) one.  Chances are, of course, they actually work in those big, evil cities.  But they can fool themselves that their interests coincide with the real rural folks, and so they vote against their own interests.

Comment #2: NobleExperiments  on  08/18  at  11:20 AM

There’s a decent discussion here about how it’s not the words being used but what’s being said:

http://youaredumb.net/node/1601

All aside, that’s interesting to hear, that there’s a broad disconnect between the mainstream right-wing idea of small-town America, and the reality of living in small-town America.

Comment #3: Sivi  on  08/18  at  11:24 AM

I actually think probably most talk radio in general tries to do that, to be honest.

Oh, absolutely.  But they play to different roles in the imaginary small town they’re trying to project to their listeners, and the advice shows are definitely a combination of the Junior Leaguers and the church counseling services.

Comment #4: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/18  at  11:26 AM

I don’t know if you meant to draw the implications of yin and yang, but you did, and it was apt. The same Dr. Laura yin to Rush Limbaugh’s yang is exactly what scares me about Mike Huckabee as a candidate—a soft touch that might make inroads with the suburban moms who were so important to W. A fire-breathing asshole might be a turn off, but the “oh shucks” psychopath is a proven, marketable commodity.

Lucky us that Huckabee raised taxes in Arkansas and has been, for the most part, relocated to an ice flow by the GOP.

Comment #5: humanadverb  on  08/18  at  11:31 AM

Chances are, of course, they actually work in those big, evil cities. 

This is one big reason that talk radio is such a hit, I’d say.  They just spend way more of their lives commuting.  That’s why I’ve listened to so much of it when I had a job in the suburbs.  One reason I hate driving is I’ve done so much of it in my life, blegh.  I definitely learned the schedule of talk radio shows, and have always been fascinated by how much they promote hard right wing ideas. Another aspect people don’t talk about so much is how many early morning comedy shows are viciously right wing.  When I briefly lived in a suburban area and had to commute to the city to work (that was something that didn’t last, I’ll tell you what), I listened to a lot of those morning zoo shows. Well, I had one I liked, but I would occasionally flip over to the others that were often more popular with the suburban set, and I was appalled at a) how unfunny they were and b) how misogynist, vicious, and right wing.  I would usually just flip back to KLBJ’s Dudley and Bob show.  They tended to be a lot more liberal and infinitely more funny.

Comment #6: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/18  at  11:33 AM

I have the distinct feeling she won’t be off the air for long.

Comment #7: Bitter Scribe  on  08/18  at  11:36 AM

I thought Dr. Laura was a conservative Jew?

Anyway, spot on - I can say what I want, but my “rights” are trampled if I’m held to account for it.  Meanwhile, if you say you are gay or I just think you are gay I can fire you and that’s just the downside of free speech so there.

Comment #8: Ms Kate  on  08/18  at  11:38 AM

This is one of the best things I’ve ever read on Pandagon, and it’s *the* best thing I’ve read about Dr. Laura and her ilk, seriously. Right on.

All I can contribute is that in the first sentence, you might want to add the word “show” after “Dr. Laura has decided to end her radio”, unless she’s blowing it away like Elvis’s TV.

Comment #9: Hob  on  08/18  at  11:38 AM

Actual small towns are places where everyone is up everyone else’s ass all the time

Make that Southern and Texas small towns (which comports with my experience).  My experience in New England and Upstate NY small towns is that everyone is up everyone else’s ass only about half the time.  I confess ignorance as to the West and Mid-West.  </half sarcasm>

Comment #10: Richard Goblin  on  08/18  at  11:41 AM

Is it possible that we can convince Clear Channel or whoever to run a week of Dan Savage in her timeslot, just to give a new perspective?

Or at least, the audio of the Frasier episode with “Dr. Nora”

Comment #11: Loch Ness Monster  on  08/18  at  11:41 AM

One reason I hate driving is I’ve done so much of it in my life, blegh.

That makes two of us.  Funny how many people I know who grew up in honestly rural areas (not pseudorural suburbs) can’t stand the suburbs and have ended up in urban areas and their immediate environs.  I compensate for my need for open skies by living on a hill next to an extensive conservation area, but near public transit and bikable distance from my downtown job.

Comment #12: Ms Kate  on  08/18  at  11:42 AM

Heh, it’s not all that surprising.  Living in a dense urban area is a lot more like living in a small town than living in the suburbs is.  Just in terms of the way your life is, where everything is super close and you don’t need a car to get around.

Comment #13: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/18  at  11:45 AM

Dr. Laura has decided to end her radio

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.


what scares me about Mike Huckabee as a candidate—a soft touch that might make inroads with the suburban moms who were so important to W. A fire-breathing asshole might be a turn off, but the “oh shucks” psychopath is a proven, marketable commodity.

Huckabee is definitely a sociopath.  He scared the shit out of me the first time I saw his slick act on TV.

I personally get bonkers when the focus is strictly on taboo words, because that means that bigots and misogynists get to claim innocence for promoting rancid ideas so long as they do so without stepping on taboo words.

Largely, I agree, but I want to point out (hopefully without derailing) that in some topic areas—trans stuff, for instance—theory and terminology is still in the stage where discussions of specific terms are common, and, I would argue, useful.  But generally, yeah.

Comment #14: bomberE  on  08/18  at  11:47 AM

I tend to think most discussions of terminology get a hold of people because it creates the illusion of control.  Trying to get into the weeds of what people are actually talking about is much harder, particularly if you’re trying to police and shame people for promoting bigoted concepts.

Comment #15: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/18  at  11:53 AM

I actually think most conservative talk radio tries to emulate that “folksy” style and it’s not limited to her show. I actually think probably most talk radio in general tries to do that, to be honest.

Argh yes!  In Pittsburgh the conservative talk show station (ironically owned by the most liberal TV station) has basically three college educated journalists who talk as if they spent their entire life living on the farm on the outskirts of the county.  For the most part they’re broadcasting into a community of urban people but eventually I realized most of their callers come from the inner/middle suburbs or from the exurban regions with practically no calls coming from the city itself or the truly rural zones (which are few due to exurbanization.)  But they constantly talk to the listeners as if we’re old friends at the grange.  It’s mildly disturbing because I can guarantee a majority of their listeners never lived in a rural zone and their families were mainly steelworkers or miners. 

The vast majority of listeners are being told how to be a bigot because it is the way of the common man.  Yet if the common really listened he would be frothing at the mouth from the anti-union and anti-worker talk spewing from these idiots heads everyday.  Then again nearly daily a unionist calls in and mocks them and because they can’t call them out because they are part of the true working class they just bumble about, it is the highlight of suffering through their lies.

I do have an easier time seeing how Dr. Laura survived than the more overtly political hacks on talk radio.  She portrays herself as a serious and acceptable psychiatrist with the patient’s best interest in mind.  In reality she is a vicious corporate harpy willing to say anything as long as it generates sponsors.  This is something I think few people touch on when discussing this is that sponsors and these groups have a weird illogical symbiotic relationship where the marketing departments assume “middle-america” wants “family-values” repressive types to tell them what to do if only for the fact that the opposite end of the spectrum is less-corporate friendly.  So they funnel money into Dr. Laura and her ilk not because of any predisposed political views but simply because in their minds it is good business practices.

Comment #16: Xeranar  on  08/18  at  11:59 AM

Huckabee is definitely a sociopath.  He scared the shit out of me the first time I saw his slick act on TV.

I don’t think Huckabee is much of a threat, not after he let out of prison that guy who went on to shoot four police officers to death for no reason at all. If they hanged Dukakis over Willie Horton, what won’t they do to Huckabee over that.

Comment #17: Bitter Scribe  on  08/18  at  12:03 PM

“You have a lot of conservative types who have big houses with no real front yard and certainly no porch to speak of.  Most of their journeys outside of their home don’t even involve breathing the air around their homes—-they hop into their car in the garage and pull out into the street, creating an actual physical boundary between them and their supposed communities at all times.  While this isn’t the cause of their isolation, it really tends to drive home how isolated they are.”

This whole passage struck me as stereotyping, rather than something factual.  I live in a pretty conservative area right now.  The Republicans are the people who drive community activity here in the most active community in which I have ever lived.  My former suburb was a stronghold for Democrats.  Democrats drove community activity there, but it wasn’t nearly as active a community.  This community has a strong tradition of volunteering, public-funding for community activities, and so on.  Anyway, I’d like to know where that whole business about isolation comes from, because I really don’t see it.  Is there something you base that on?  Some report or study or something?  Something akin to evidence.

If folks want to answer with anecdotal evidence, please note that I have my own to contradict it, so I’m not looking for “Well I live in a Republican town named Nigel, and MY Nigel…”

Comment #18: DBK  on  08/18  at  12:04 PM

I wouldn’t say that small towns aren’t conservative—-they are, though it’s worth pointing out that my small town apparently voted for Obama in the last election.  But the way they are conservative is different. The hypocrisy that needs to exist to maintain conservative social values has a different tenor to it.

Comment #19: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/18  at  12:07 PM

I knew this day would come. It is impolite to gloat, but her forcing her listeners to identify themselves as “so and so’s mom” instead of using their names and chastising all women who dare to work outside the home shredded my last nerve years ago, so I’m not at all sad to see her go. Plus, she’ll pop up on the internet or that tired satellite radio anyway.

And in spite of her whining about her rights, a person who can read at an 8th grade level could figure out that the first amendment does not guarantee the right to not have your feelings hurt.

I listen to urban radio stations in the morning for the exact reasons you just outlined. They realize their audience is 95% black so they skip the whole folksy act altogether and they aren’t ridiculously right wing. Which morning show was it that encouraged a transgender child to commit suicide? Are those evil monsters still on the air?

Comment #20: DC Fem  on  08/18  at  12:10 PM

DBK, the suburbs I’m most familiar with are the ones outside of Houston, Dallas, El Paso, and Austin.  I’m sure older suburbs have nice yards and porches, but the newer developments are deliberately isolating.  It’s simply the trend in construction right now.  The idea is that front yard space is a waste for whatever reason.  I’ve never seen or experienced a lonelier, more isolated community than when I’ve worked in or briefly lived in suburban areas. That’s kind of the point of them, I’ve noticed—-the idea that every man has his castle.

Comment #21: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/18  at  12:10 PM

Also, DBK, if you could point to where I said “all” suburbs are exactly like this, instead of pointing to the general trends.  If I said “all”, I certainly apologize.  I’m pretty sure I didn’t say “all”, as I know there’s exceptions to every rule.

Comment #22: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/18  at  12:12 PM

Thinking about radio shows and ads…

I hafta say, I think we really should keep Amway in mind when we talk about conservative whacko shows like Dr. Laura.  They go hand in hand with the whole corporate landscape because they try to create a mentality among their listeners that makes them susceptible to Big Fish urges, which then benefits the ads during the break.  Amanda‘s talk of the contrast between the reality of small towns and the illusion of one projected by right wing talk really helped me conceptualize the strong and indirect relationship between a kind of dog-eat-dog fantasy and the shopkeeps that sells them the potions with the 40 healing points.  You know…like Beck and his fascination with gold.  Build the fantasy and when you’re off the air and the smooth talking guys are on, your listeners are still in the fantasy and whatever ability to be critical is shut down.

You can’t get that kind of advertising friendliness if you stick to reality, and make your listeners think about the harder realities of life.  I think I get how news drift to info-tainment and why right-wing news and articles tend to dominate.  Ads are simply more successful during fantastical adversarial shows/columns.  Crossfire and McLaughlin Show are the way they are for a reason.  Sigh, we need a better PBS, we really do.  Because BBC has that nasty regressive tax, they are the programs the world trusts rather than CNN.

Comment #23: shah8  on  08/18  at  12:21 PM

“I personally get bonkers when the focus is strictly on taboo words, because that means that bigots and misogynists get to claim innocence for promoting rancid ideas so long as they do so without stepping on taboo words.  Often, they just do this by making up new slurs, as Mark Williams has demonstrated a lot of initiative in doing.”

I’m reminded of Lee Atwater who in a confession confirmed everything about modern racism.  That racists no longer use the N-word (as much), they talk about lowering taxes and stuff so their racism is more abstract.  IMHO, all conservatives like Dr. Laura are racist in their own way, but the emphasis shouldn’t be placed on the occasional racial slur that pops out of their mouth, but on their ideology.

Simply put, conservatives aren’t racist because they say racial slurs, but the say racial slurs because they are racist.

Comment #24: Albert Cirrus  on  08/18  at  12:22 PM

And I would listen a lot to shows like Dr. Laura’s, out of masochism, boredom and curiosity.

I did the same for about a month at a similar job in L.A., years ago in college. Even at that young age, it took only that long for me to realise that this hectoring scold was a nasty piece of work indeed.

While she wasn’t pushing her politics and religion overtly at the time, her basic theme was that inter-religious and interracial marriages and relationships were completely unworkable. And she delivered that message with the mean and smug mein of the bully, especially when the caller was a woman. Looks like it’s only gotten worse in the intervening 20 years. Good riddance.

Huckabee is definitely a sociopath.  He scared the shit out of me the first time I saw his slick act on TV.

Same here. Plus it runs in the family, although his monstrous son hasn’t nailed down the slick and charming act yet. Fortunately for young Master Huckabee, his father wasn’t shy about using his power to try to cover up his animal torture antics.

Comment #25: Gracchus.  on  08/18  at  12:22 PM

Before this thread goes too far, I want to bring up the fact that “Dr.” Laura has a doctorate degree in Physiology, not in any mental health field or even counseling.

They made a big point of emphasizing the “Doctor” part from the beginning, knowing full well that the type of Right Wing Authoritarians who would listen are big on that sort of thing.  I always thought that was incredibly deceptive and dishonest.

Then you add in the whole “I am my kid’s mom!” bullshit, which somehow implies she isn’t the radio entertainer she really is, to make her seem just like some mom standing up in a PTA meeting and speaking wisdom, rather than cynically taking advantage of people with no self-esteem who want to be abused by somebody with a superiority complex while millions of other losers listen to the carnage.

She’s also another great Reichwing (yes, I know she’s Jewish, I still think it’s accurate) example of somebody telling people exactly how to live their lives while conducting their own completely differently.

Decrying sex out of marriage, while conducting more than one affair, including one with her current husband.  She tells women not to give it up so he’ll marry you, but lived with her current husband out of wedlock for 9-years.  She decries pregnancy without marriage but was pregnant when she married the last time.  She’s big on the importance of family but was estranged from both her mother and her sister.  (Her mother died alone in her Beverly Hills condo and her body wasn’t discovered until 2-months after she died.)  Then we get into the hypocrisy of the nude photos, her lies claiming they didn’t exist, and then her later (very) reluctant admission the photos were real.

“Dr.” Laura is a real piece of work.  Good riddance, and don’t let the door hit your hypocritical ass on the way out…

Comment #26: MikeEss  on  08/18  at  12:26 PM

What you said about Dr Laura can also be said about a lot of sports talk shows, they are always sneaking a conservative viewpoint into the dialogue.  For example Collin Cowherd on ESPN loves to talk about how much of an advantage states with lower taxes have when it comes to attracting pro-athletes, which seems innaccurate as the two winningest teams i can think of our the New England Patriots and the LA Lakers which are both in high tax states; but he will always present it as fact.

I keep remembering the Dr Laura’s son got into trouble for some sort of incident in the army, maybe the apple didn’t fall too far from the tree.

Comment #27: John Rove  on  08/18  at  12:33 PM

It’s simply the trend in construction right now.  The idea is that front yard space is a waste for whatever reason.  I’ve never seen or experienced a lonelier, more isolated community than when I’ve worked in or briefly lived in suburban areas. That’s kind of the point of them, I’ve noticed—-the idea that every man has his castle.

Exactly. We’re not talking about older suburbs or New Urbanism experiments. American Exurbs, especially gated communities, have been built on the same plan for decades: McMansions taking up almost the entire lot, with a two-car garage (minimum) blighting the frontage; streets without sidewalks; half-baked parks and Columbine-like public schools that push the worst values of the HR/4th Purpose Culture; the nearest commercial area a strip mall at least a mile away from the homes.

It’s an even more extreme expression of the fortress mentality that created the Roman domus, which presented windowless walls to the outside world.

Comment #28: Gracchus.  on  08/18  at  12:36 PM

No, I didn’t see you say anything about “all suburbs”, but I’m looking for something to support the notion of it being a general trend.  I’m not trying to start an argument.  I just haven’t seen what you’re saying.

I don’t even dispute that your experience has been as described, but the leap to “Dr Laura’s listeners are like this” is tenuous.  Your thesis is based on the notion, as I see it, that Dr Laura’s listeners are suburbanites of the type you described and they look to Dr Laura for external validation.  You might be able to confirm that they are suburbanites, but the generalizations about suburban isolation don’t hold water in my experience, even though they hold water in yours.  That’s why I was asking for something more.

Yes, there are exceptions to every rule, but is your experience the rule or the exception?  Or is mine?  I don’t know, so I asked.

Comment #29: DBK  on  08/18  at  12:38 PM

I keep remembering the Dr Laura’s son got into trouble for some sort of incident in the army, maybe the apple didn’t fall too far from the tree.

Wow. Maybe he and David Huckabee can get together—sounds like these two sons of prominent conservatives would have a lot of interests in common.

Comment #30: Gracchus.  on  08/18  at  12:43 PM

DBK-

Putnam actually described this phenomenon extensively in his book http://www.bowlingalone.com/  I th.ink that Amanda’s generalizations are closer to the norm than yours, based on hours spent doing things together, the construction of house, et cetera.

Comment #31: Antigone  on  08/18  at  12:52 PM

“Dr.” Laura has been off the main local radio stations for quite awhile, but used to have the timeslot after Limbaugh’s.  I enjoyed hearing the crazy situations people would call in for, but could only take her in small doses.  I still try to listen to the right wingers (Dr. L, Limbaugh and Liddy) to prepare myself for arguments on logic and information rather than emotion. 

Part of her schtick (as is Limbaugh’s) is to say stuff calculated to anger anyone slightly left of center so that right wingers could live vicariously at her saying crap no sober person would say in polite, mixed persuasion gatherings.  In the exchange in question she immediately got off the subject of the call, which was how to deal with a spouse who doesn’t support you in social situations, to the “hypersensitivity” of black people and used the most inflammatory way she could think of to do it. It’s almost as if she was looking for a way to get out of radio and blame the libruls, darkies and “biological errors” for picking on her and running her out.  Well, getting out of the hot kitchen is a new Republican thing, thanks to ex-Gov. Palin. 

I think that the elevation of taboo toward words is unfortunate because it gives the words, and malevolent people, much more power to hurt than they deserve.  There has been an expansion of the taboo to several other words to the same effect.  I don’t buck the trend, but I regret it.  I once hoped the increased use of the N word and the F word by AA’s and gay men and women would sap the strength of the perjoratives, but I know that’s a futile and passe wish.

Comment #32: MiddleageLiberal  on  08/18  at  12:57 PM

Thank you, Antigone.  Interesting.  Haven’t read it, of course, but the basic outline provided indicates support for the thesis of the posting.  Now I just have to overcome my experiences with MY Nigel to accept the thesis.  My basic problem with all of this is that humans are social animals and so there is a strong tendency to belong to a community regardless of the size of one’s home.  I just don’t see how it is possible to not have a tribe.

Comment #33: DBK  on  08/18  at  12:59 PM

I used to listen to the “local” Clear Channel soft rock station as a kid, and they had a Super Folksy morning show. I remember there was a female co-host who didn’t last very long because she kept trying to introduce ideas like “maybe regulating strip clubs isn’t actually first priority to real feminists” and “the microsoft anti-trust case is because Microsoft has worked so hard to blockade its users into using it for everything, not because Bill Gates has a big house.” I hearted her (as a ten-year-old) but she probably lasted six months.

The reference that these shows are making in, for instance, the Carolinas is also to community-owned stations that actually might talk through things like why that big pot-hole isn’t getting fixed and how if anyone wants to come to a covered-dish dinner at the Methodist church on Thursday, show up around 7 pm by the basketball hoops and Donna will let you in to the fellowship hall. Of course a lot of those have been wiped out, though I grew up with a remaining (Appalachian) station where the host would read you the county newspaper every morning and make commentary on how Mayor McWhatever’s front yard was looking real nice and he wished he’d find that much attention to show to the town park.

Comment #34: purpleshoes  on  08/18  at  01:04 PM

Amanda, the suburbs of the older big cities in the United States, the suburbs of New York City, Chicago, Philadelphia, Boston, and San Francisco etc., are a bit different than the suburbs of the newer big cities like Atlanta, Dallas, and Houston. Besides often having a commuter rail link to the big city, the suburbs of older American cities often have townish features. I grew up in Great Neck, a suburb of NYC, and can tell you that most of the suburbs of New York City have something resembling a proper town center, usually near the LIRR, Metro North, or NJ Transit train station, and more typical suburban shopping. We have apartments in the town cetner and residential subdivsions. The suburbs of the other older cities tend to be the small, particular the closer you get to the big city.

  Most of the suburbs of the older cities are also Democratic strongholds now. This used to not be the case but the Republicans have gone too far to the right and suburbanites of New York, Chicago, and other older cities aren’t the types to be attracted to the Evangelical politics, especially since a majority are not Evangelical or even Protestant. The Protestants tend to belong to ethnic and racial minorities, further making culture wars really unattractive.

    Otherwise, your post was very fascinating and raised issues that I haven’t considered. The question is always, what can liberals and progressives do about it. Simply criticizing and pointing out the errors doesn’t really work, especially if the criticism doesn’t reach those that need it the most, the listeners. Attempts to set up liberal alternatives to Dr. Laura and company tend to attract people who are already liberal or fail.

Comment #35: Lee  on  08/18  at  01:06 PM

DBK, I recommend reading the book “Bowling Alone” is what you need is scientific proof. I also recommend the book “Searching for Whitopia” for another, interesting look at the housing suburban/exurban trends. I have no idea why my banal and frankly uncontroversial observations about the explosion of suburbia and the increasing isolation of American life bother you so much, but this trend is thoroughly documented and easy enough to observe.

Comment #36: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/18  at  01:10 PM

I’ll add, DBK, that the evidence for who Dr. Laura’s audience is can be found in where her show is broadcast, who advertises with her, where her billboards are, and what bookstores highlight her books. Hint: suburbia.

Comment #37: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/18  at  01:22 PM

I think I was pretty clear.  Lee (#35) referred to the older suburbs, which reflect my own experience.  I didn’t think my own banal and frankly uncontroversial remarks about why I needed a bit more before I embraced your thesis were at all confrontational.  See my comments at #29.  So what’s with the “bother you so much” stuff?

Comment #38: DBK  on  08/18  at  01:29 PM

I’ll add that I didn’t dispute that her audience is largely suburban.  My entire point was that I didn’t know for a fact that the suburbs are isolated in the way you described, i.e., lacking a sense of community or community participation.

Comment #39: DBK  on  08/18  at  01:33 PM

Is there a way to find out what dr laura made on her last contract and what she is now being offered? Somehow I think she’s using this controversy to quit and make it seem completely her idea rather than have the country notice that her next contract offer is less than desirable. Her popularity isn’t what it used to be and this is a fine way of going out on a wave of self-righteousness.

She may have some success over the Internet, but since she doesn’t play well with others, I wonder what may happen without connection to other websites and bloggers?

Comment #40: LCforevah  on  08/18  at  01:35 PM

I wouldn’t say that small towns aren’t conservative

This is an over-generalization.  For counterexample, see “Vermont, most small towns in.”  New Hampshire and Massachusetts are fairly mixed bags.  Upstate NY varies radically from town to town.

And yes, New England and Upstate NY are legitimate parts of America.

Comment #41: Richard Goblin  on  08/18  at  01:36 PM

There was a lot of this going around during the Y2K runup. A few years after it was over I picked up a book called “The Millennium Bug” by Michael Hyatt—as one might expect it was blatant survivalist scaremongering. Hyatt claimed that the results would be pretty close to a societal collapse, and the place to be was (of course) a small town where the neighbors all know each other (xenophobia: check) because the cities are dangerous places (veiled racism: check). Of course you were to stock up on guns and food (right-wing survivalism: check). Hyatt even went out of his way to mention China’s low-tech navy as possibly being the best left in the world after the collapse (blatant racism and Red Scare: check).

Oddly enough it wasn’t until several years later that I noticed that it was published by Regnery, the same lot who publish the <strike>Politically</strike> Incorrect Guides.

Comment #42: BrianX  on  08/18  at  01:37 PM

DBK-

I think that need for a Tribe is where these talk radio, and quite frankly, ugly politics come in.  We are social creatures, and to some degree that feeds that psychological need.  But since it’s not a perfect fit, they crave it more and more (I sympathizes, I did the same but with left-y poltics for a long time).

Comment #43: Antigone  on  08/18  at  01:42 PM

DBK at 38: Great Neck had a pretty strogn sense of community. We had a bit of proper downtown that people were proud of, a school and park system that people were very proud of, and a good library and youth program associated with it. We even had a very large and good public swimming pool. There was an annual crafts fair in the spring and a fair organized by the store owners in the fall. It really wasn’t a bad place.

Comment #44: Lee  on  08/18  at  01:44 PM

I will add that of course people are social animals. My ideas don’t work unless you accept that the isolated existence of the suburbs affects people negatively. The reason that they’re suspectible to faux folksy radio is that they’re a little lonely. They often haven’t experienced the downsides of a tightly knit community, which makes the fantasy even more powerful.

Comment #45: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/18  at  01:46 PM

Richard Goblin:

How could we be part of the Real America? We have this silly idea that Americans should be well-educated and tolerant.

Comment #46: BrianX  on  08/18  at  01:47 PM

It should be noted that most of the suburbs of New York City, especially on Long Island and in West Chester County, aren’t strictly older suburbs. Most of Nassau and Suffolk Counties was farm land until the 1950s. Great Neck was farmland until the 1920s, when it became an upper-class suburb of New York. It was the inspiration for the setting of the Great Gatsby. Most of the homes in Great Neck were post-War. However, Great Neck and most of the rest of the suburbs used to be the American equivalent of villages with a center around the local train station. This caused suburban development to be different from suburban development elsewhere.

Comment #47: Lee  on  08/18  at  01:49 PM

Since the topic at hand is “red state America”, I have to see, “But what about blue state suburbs and small towns that are heavily Democratic and look nothing like most suburbs and small towns in the places that are more relevant to the discussion” as a red herring.  The point is to examine why someone like Dr. Laura gets an audience where she does.  Bringing places up where she doesn’t get as much of an audience seems kind of strange to me, and I can’t account for it.

Comment #48: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/18  at  01:52 PM

I’m probably just repeating what’s already been said, but as someone who grew up in Southern California and has since lived in the Midwest and on the East coast, my experience is that there is a huge difference between the McMansion filled stepford suburbs that Amanda is talking about and the older inner ring suburbs in the East and Midwest.

The newer developments - mostly, but not exclusively, in the West and Southwest - are sterile and isolating to a pretty extreme degree.

Comment #49: Nobody  on  08/18  at  01:54 PM

My experience in New England and Upstate NY small towns is that everyone is up everyone else’s ass only about half the time.

I would have agreed having been raised in Boston and lived in Memphis for almost 7 years. The “up your ass” factor was considerably higher in Memphis and it was usually church oriented. I just wasn’t used to it. Then I moved back to Boston, got married and had kids. If you want to see up your ass and in your kitchen, get involved with any community sporting event with your kids. Holy shit, the French underground didn’t have a communication system this sophisticated. The amount of gossip and judgements thrown around at a grammar school ball field, if harnessed, could end our dependence on foreign oil.

Comment #50: Danzig  on  08/18  at  01:54 PM

has basically three college educated journalists who talk as if they spent their entire life living on the farm on the outskirts of the county.

Xeranar @16:
I hope you didn’t mean to imply that college educated people would not be living on a farm, that it is not possible to have been living on a farm while getting an education, etc, but that sure is how this came off.

Comment #51: helen w. h.  on  08/18  at  01:56 PM

Huh. And here I thought suburban commuters driving to the city were the reason NPR still exists.

Part of this is the hipster urbanista assumption that The Burbs, bless their prefab little hearts, are all exactly alike. They’re not. “Suburb”, obviously, just means a community not right in the middle of a city or out on a farm, and there’s a whole range from working-class and poor suburbs to rich gated enclaves. Without looking at the actual audience statistics for Dr. Laura and her ilk, we’re all kind of pulling guesses out of our asses.

Here’s my guess: Dr. Laura et al fill a niche for conservative women. Limbaugh famously whines about how unpopular he is with women and how his show skews male, and even conservative talk-radio hosts like Ingraham have audiences that are heavily male. Dr. Laura is someone acceptable to women, probably because she talks about “women’s” issues that the faux-macho Limbaugh fans won’t listen to for a minute.

Comment #52: mythago  on  08/18  at  02:08 PM

Around DC the older suburbs are indeed, on average, the more liberal ones

Comment #53: Woodrowfan  on  08/18  at  02:13 PM

@27 which seems innaccurate as the two winningest teams i can think of our the New England Patriots and the LA Lakers which are both in high tax states;

California is not a high tax state; it is a high whine-about-tax state.

Missouri, OTOH, is a very low tax state. Aside from the Cards, every team in the state stinks out loud.

I haven’t checked Aravosis lately; is the hack all pissy because African Americans might be getting the credit for taking Dr. Laura down instead of him?

Comment #54: Dr. Squid  on  08/18  at  02:15 PM

How could we be part of the Real America? We have this silly idea that Americans should be well-educated and tolerant.

LOL

Comment #55: Richard Goblin  on  08/18  at  02:16 PM

One of the things I find weird about these shows is that the callers must be listeners (or at least have heard about the show) and yet they don’t expect to get othered and used as scapegoats so that the rest of the audience can feel outraged and/or superior.

The whole “make a display object out of poor attention-seeking suckers who don’t know better” category has grown immensely, in part because it’s cheap to produce, in larger part because if you’re busy thinking what assholes the people featured on the shows are, you don’t spend so much time thinking about how they got that way.

(One of the vices in our house is “Intervention”, a show in which the serious majority of people being intervened at appear to have excellent reasons for spending as much time as they can drunk or high or sleeping it off. Reasons that could often be way better addressed by better health care, education, social safety net, shelters and so forth.)

Comment #56: paul  on  08/18  at  02:16 PM

Hah, I was just looking at an archive of pictures from the 20s and 30s of neighborhoods around here - those tree-lined settlements of Craftsman-style bungalows that are now established neighborhoods that intelligentsia get into bidding wars over were once as hideously prefab and treeless as your average subdivision is now. However, I do think it’s fair to acknowledge a watershed moment at the point where suburbs were designed for cars.

Comment #57: purpleshoes  on  08/18  at  02:23 PM

Isolation is dead on, but here the Republicans are less isolated I think, if you are Conservative, have a couple of kids and drive a huge vehicle you fit right in smile

Thing that kills me is there are sidewalks but they go nowhere, you can’t get out of here safely without driving even thou there are walking trails less than a mile away that would get you downtown in an actual small town with a couple of miles walk if they just made that connection.

Comment #58: ewellone  on  08/18  at  02:24 PM

Hah, mythago, one of the few things I miss about traveling everywhere from my childhood exurb in a car is NPR. I ... may have deliberately scheduled one of the recurring activities I drive to during the week during the Diane Rehm Show.

Comment #59: purpleshoes  on  08/18  at  02:26 PM

One of the things I find weird about these shows is that the callers must be listeners (or at least have heard about the show) and yet they don’t expect to get othered and used as scapegoats so that the rest of the audience can feel outraged and/or superior.

It makes a certain sort of twisted sense for the caller. Here we have someone who, as a listener, is used to being a toady to the bully/queen bee (Dr. Laura). As often happens with toadies, they begin to believe they enjoy the prerogatives of the bully, foremost among them the ability to break their own rules (as someone mentioned above, Dr. Laura is a notorious hypocrite).

So the self-deluded toady, now involved in a situation that the host/bully usually takes others to task for, decides to test this illusory exceptionality. And, as always happens, the bully slams her down and puts her in her place.

Dr. Laura, as I remember, delighted in doing this to female fans of lower economic and/or social status—especially stay-at-home moms. The latter would call in, collect their praise for being “X’s mom” (i.e. falling in line with the bully in general), and then get shown that it takes a lot more than that to get a pass or exception on their particular sin. It was a repulsive spectacle.

Comment #60: Gracchus.  on  08/18  at  02:28 PM

The amount of gossip and judgements thrown around at a grammar school ball field, if harnessed, could end our dependence on foreign oil.

The Canadian equivalent is, of course, at the kids’ hockey game.

Comment #61: KeithM  on  08/18  at  02:29 PM

Although Dr. Laura is not a Psychologist, she does have a (lapsed) license to practice Marriage and Family Therapy in the state of California.  The fact that she and I possess(ed) the same license is a source of never ending shame for me and my profession. 

Frankly, I think this “good-bye” is just a drama queen hissy fit designed to boost her victim cred and thus her ratings when she moves to satellite, the internet, or back to AM radio.  Sadly, we haven’t heard the last of “Dr.” Laura.

Comment #62: Captain Bathrobe  on  08/18  at  02:29 PM

However, I do think it’s fair to acknowledge a watershed moment at the point where suburbs were designed for cars.

Yes, when most of us (including, I assume, Amanda) talk about “older suburbs” we’re talking about those that pre-dated the 1970s. The moment you’re talking about, where developers started saying “who needs sidewalks or a town centre/village?” and when the burb moved beyond the reach of mass commuter transit happened about that time. By the end of the 1970s, people were starting to notice that the New Granada-style “planned” communities were a particularly unhealthy form of suburb, even for kids.

Comment #63: Gracchus.  on  08/18  at  02:41 PM

Gracchus, I live in what is called a “streetcar suburb”.  These were built before WW-II and took advantage of the burgeoning public transport networks.  While many residents rely on cars, the area is still very walkable with sidewalks and 5,000 square foot lots and short distances to transit lines.

Comment #64: Ms Kate  on  08/18  at  03:01 PM

@27 which seems innaccurate as the two winningest teams i can think of our the New England Patriots and the LA Lakers which are both in high tax states;

MA is NOT a high tax state, either.  Total tax burdan lands MA at around #30.  In fact, taxes have been way too low for too long and the result is that we have crumbling infrastructure.

Comment #65: Ms Kate  on  08/18  at  03:04 PM

Seriously, this thread should be an illustration of why “if it’s not about you, it’s not about you”.  If your own unique wonderful suburb is so great, then it’s not fucking about you.  I never said every single suburb was identical.  That’s a strawman.

Comment #66: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/18  at  03:07 PM

@27: Colin Cowherd is a moron. (For many reasons, but this is a biggie.) Pro athletes don’t do their own taxes, and most of them are financially illiterate to boot. I guarantee their decisions about where to play come down to the following: 1. Who will hire me? (Terrel Owens) and 2. Where do I have a good chance to win a title? (LeBron James)

I used to listen to ESPN radio in the car (stopped after Mike Greenberg’s racist crack and non-apology) and I cackled with glee the day Cowherd’s shit show was cut off an hour early and Scott Van Pelt started an hour sooner. Nobody else likes Colin either.

Comment #67: Yawgmoth  on  08/18  at  03:07 PM

paul @56, I think that Gracchus @60 has it exactly.  By the time you call the show, you’ve been nodding along, feeling superior for roughly forever.  So when you call in, you think your superiority will be easy for the host to recognize.  And obviously, the host doesn’t know you, so…..

I will add that the ratings for shows like these also demonstrate that people only take in 20-30 minutes at a time, if that.  Some callers may not think about this at any level more deeply than it’s a call-in advice show, and they assume the host is sympathetic because why else would they do the job?  That’s one reason these shows are insidious is that they transmit their assumptions without necessarily asking for a conscious buy-in.

Comment #68: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/18  at  03:12 PM

Amanda, I think the structure of a suburb does matter.  The proximity to cities and urban life that attract people to older suburbs and “streetcar” suburbs select for certain types of people and not others.  This, in turn, has an impact on where people will listen to Dr. Laura and other talk show hosts versus NPR.  Most people don’t listen to the radio on the train.  Most conservative-voter types are not happy in diverse, close-in, houses on small lots areas and they move out.  I think the demographic maps of Scott Brown’s election and how they scale with community structures and composition can attest to where people are either committed red voters or can be swayed under unusual circumstances.  His “win” areas are anchored in firmly republican strongholds which are very much characterized by whitopian suburbs with large lots and lengthy commutes.

Comment #69: Ms Kate  on  08/18  at  03:17 PM

DBK, the suburbs I’m most familiar with are the ones outside of Houston, Dallas, El Paso, and Austin.  I’m sure older suburbs have nice yards and porches, but the newer developments are deliberately isolating.  It’s simply the trend in construction right now.  The idea is that front yard space is a waste for whatever reason.  I’ve never seen or experienced a lonelier, more isolated community than when I’ve worked in or briefly lived in suburban areas. That’s kind of the point of them, I’ve noticed—-the idea that every man has his castle.

Amanda, what are you talking about?  I live in a suburb outside of Austin right now in a newer development.  My neighbors to the left help us with our garden.  Our neighbors to the right talk to us all the time (most recently about how they’re going to make sure our newborn gets enough rice and beans).  They both sit on their porches everyday, or—more frequently—on each others porches.  We all chat, and hang out, and know what cars are familiar and unfamiliar and everyone’s kids play together, and we all have yards, and every weekend our neighbors blast tejano music from their open garages, and people walk in and out chatting and sharing beers. 

I mean, I’ve certainly seen the types of places you’re talking about (westlake), but everywhere I’ve lived in Austin from the far south east side (dove springs) to the north (leander/cedar park/pville/roundrock) to the east (cameron and 290) are not at all like you describe.

Admittedly, when people are at work or when it’s 109 degrees outside it’s a little more desolate.  If you were making these observations when you were commuting, then everyone else was either commuting or at work as well.  Did you stick around to see what happens when it gets closer to dusk?  Were you in primarily more well off areas?  It may even be the racial make up.  I can imagine areas that are primarily white being like you describe (again westlake), but a good chunk of Austin’s surrounding suburban areas are populated by a pretty racially diverse bunch—where I’ve lived, anyway, which is all over Austin—particularly the Latin@ community.  That’s my experience, and they’re not exactly a group who walls themselves off from their neighbors.

Comment #70: Ailuridae  on  08/18  at  03:18 PM

Morning zoos, bullies like Dr Laura, and the Rush Limbaugh’s of this country (and the fact that I haven’t driven in 25 years) are some of the reasons I also haven’t listened to radio in 25 years.

Air America came in so weak from the other side of town, I tried to listen thru static, but…

My guess: Dr. Laura is gonna end up on Sirius or whatever satellite radio station exists now (probably already has a deal in her pocket).

I believe I’ve read that the FCC rules don’t apply there.

Comment #71: judybrowni  on  08/18  at  03:19 PM

And yes, New England and Upstate NY are legitimate parts of America.

I seem to recall that cool people like the authors of “Leisureville”, “Green Metropolis” and “The Geography of Nowhere” live in not-very-touristy, not-yet-too-gentrified parts of New England and Upstate NY.

PS Easterbrook boils it all down to income tax, which isn’t much of a surprise, to the neglect of other taxes that (especially) affect regular working folk more.

Comment #72: ThresherK  on  08/18  at  03:20 PM

ewellone:

Most of these “suburbs” are developed one former pasture/farm or woodlot at a time. That’s why you’ll also generally see one entrance/exit per subdivision. (It ostensibly contributes to a sense of security and to slower traffic flow because no one drives through, but mostly it’s just creepy.) The developers may do sidewalks, but the local town/village/whatever generally doesn’t.  So you could be a quarter mile away from a grocery store/shopping center, but still have to go by car.

I read that some states are now taking the radical, visionary step of giving developers credit for additional road access if they extend the streets on their parcel to places on the perimeter where they could connect up with streets on adjacent yet-to-be-developed parcels. Only took 40 years.

Comment #73: paul  on  08/18  at  03:22 PM

Yes, but all that is fundamentally irrelevant to this post.  It’s really in poor taste and bad faith to assume that I was somehow claiming that Dr. Laura’s main audience is Great Neck or one of the other coastal, dense suburbs when it’s quite obvious I’m talking about your far more average “flyover” suburb. 

This kind of thing is, incidentally, one reason that people in “flyover” states get a big chip on their shoulders, when their way of life (whatever you think of it) is brushed aside or minimized as if it doesn’t matter.  It matters quite a bit; these folks may not be the absolute majority but they are a huge group of people.

As for why conservative people are more unhappy in dense areas….that’s a chicken and egg thing.  A lot of people live in gated community/exurban areas (you know, the ones I was obviously talking about) because of straight up white flight.  If that’s what you mean by “unhappy”, I agree.  But the values that lead to white flight don’t necessarily translate to being, say, against reproductive rights or gay rights, or getting into all sorts of other crazy right wing ideas.  That’s why I describe the effect of radio as “radicalizing” not “creating whole cloth”.

Comment #74: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/18  at  03:23 PM

“My basic problem with all of this is that humans are social animals…”

Speak for yourself, sir.

“...and so there is a strong tendency to belong to a community regardless of the size of one’s home.  I just don’t see how it is possible to not have a tribe.”

Oh, they have a tribe; it’s just that it’s a virtual tribe.

“My entire point was that I didn’t know for a fact that the suburbs are isolated in the way you described, i.e., lacking a sense of community or community participation.”

I live in an area caught in the interstice between true rurality and the kind of exurbia Amanda is describing So I can testify to the fact that Amanda’s description of exurbia is pretty a accurate.  (Though perhaps exurbia takes up more space in Western states than in Midwestern, Southern or Eastern ones?)  I have seen woods cut down to make room for exactly the kind of developments Amanda talks about here.  I can also testify to the fact that though community life does go on such developments, it has been made very difficult; designedly so.  Part of the reason for this, I believe, is that the barriers to community participation are meant to discourage outsiders: people without enough leisure time or enough disposable income just can’t “do” the neighborliness bit in that setting, and so their input gets lost to the system.  Ideally you need one non-working spouse and two big (kid-ferrying) cars to make the exurban arrangement work, so that the kind of women Dr. Laura was targeting really are indispensable to the set-up, in a way, as a type if not as individuals. 

The stay-at-home kid’s-mom has to work atrociously hard in order keep community life running in the exurbs; maybe this is why she’s always terrified social fabric she’s exhausting herself trying to maintain is about to be destroyed.  Maybe, too, this is why so many people report that they see more voluntarism and community service in conservative districts.  It would make sense on the basis that you will naturally expend more labor on a job that’s almost impossible to do than on one which is comparatively easy.

Comment #75: bekabot  on  08/18  at  03:24 PM

Seriously, this thread should be an illustration of why “if it’s not about you, it’s not about you”.  If your own unique wonderful suburb is so great, then it’s not fucking about you.  I never said every single suburb was identical.  That’s a strawman.

But you said the suburbs of Austin which is where I fucking live.  I’ve lived in and around Austin—in the city, the in suburbs, on campus, north, south, east, west, all over—for a quarter of a decade.  I’m not disagreeing with you, because I do think that (white, upper middle class) suburbia is a wasteland of McMansions and terrified white people trying to wall off the rest of the world.  I just think that you’re completely ignoring the aspect of what you’re describing that’s motivated by racial and class divides.  Dove Springs and Westlake Hills are both suburban neighborhoods.  If you dropped someone into one and then the other without telling them they were both in the same city, they’d never know they were even in the same state.

Comment #76: Ailuridae  on  08/18  at  03:26 PM

I live in what is called a “streetcar suburb”.  These were built before WW-II and took advantage of the burgeoning public transport networks.  While many residents rely on cars, the area is still very walkable with sidewalks and 5,000 square foot lots and short distances to transit lines.

That’s the evolution—streetcars/interurban tram suburbs from the 1890s through the 1920s (many of which have since been absorbed into the urban areas they once orbited), followed by commuter-train suburbs further out from the ‘20s to ‘50s, followed by automobile suburbs even further out from the ‘50s onward. It was driven as much by distance from the city as it was by new transportation technology.

Until the ‘70s, the developers of all those suburb types understood that, since one of the major selling points was a healthy atmosphere for children, they needed to provide amenities like a walkable town centre and sidewalks and real parks and recreation facilities for the entire community.

From roughly the 1970s to the early 1990s (a dark period in a lot of ways), developers basically said “screw it—if you’re gonna live here, you’d better be able to drive everywhere and build your own damned swimming pool and rec room.” Children, the elderly, working class people? “Screw you!”

You also see this right-wing attitude reflected in the infrastructure: not only no sidewalks, but also crappy sewage and water systems and grossly unbalanced zoning regs. From there you can imagine how the racial/segregationist attitudes followed, even if they could no longer be enforced by formal covenants.

The New Urbanism movement is trying to roll that corner-cutting BS back, but lots of people are still stuck in the kind of bleak burbs Amanda describes.

Comment #77: Gracchus.  on  08/18  at  03:27 PM

All, to take your comment seriously, you’re going to have to be more specific.  I was forced to live nearly in Cedar Park. I worked in Westlake and Round Rock. So basically, the claim that I don’t know the suburbs of Austin would strike me as false.

The point isn’t that people *never* talk to each other, but are relatively isolated, especially compared to small towns, which of course is what the point of comparison was.  I never went out in Alpine without running into people I know.  And I almost never went out in the more suburban areas of Austin and ran into someone I know.  And forget about just incidental contact with people through front yards (didn’t exist enough to speak of) or sidewalks (yeah right).

It’s super weird that people are suddenly, for no reason whatsoever, in denial about the expansion of sidewalk free gated community type suburbs.  WTF, seriously.

Comment #78: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/18  at  03:28 PM

An excellent post, and I not only agree with you on their uses of fantasy; I’ve come to realize that everything, everything, about the conservative way of life is based on fantasy, though and through.

Their nostalgic dream of what the country used to be and their vision of what the country should be, and everything in between, is based on some sloppy amalgam of movies and books and the pretty pictures painted with words. Their entire lives in a flight from reality into fantasy; which is why they get so upset about Hollywood and their grip on the imagination. They get redfaced and screamy when you challenge their gossamer assumptions.

And they retreat from life with their blatant disregard for what is, and instead frantically substitute… some substitute.

Comment #79: WereBear  on  08/18  at  03:29 PM

I just think that you’re completely ignoring the aspect of what you’re describing that’s motivated by racial and class divides. 

How am I ignoring it?  I assumed the existence of, but no, I didn’t go into a long digression explaining the history of why.  I simply pointed out that the appeal of these shows speaks to certain realities of community.  I fail to see why I need to write a book for every blog post; no one would read that.

Comment #80: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/18  at  03:31 PM

Also, Round Rock, TX—-a large suburb (probably the largest) of Austin is notoriously conservative.  They’re often at the top of the list of book banning scandals.

Comment #81: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/18  at  03:34 PM

I live in a suburb outside of Austin right now in a newer development.  My neighbors to the left help us with our garden.  Our neighbors to the right talk to us all the time (most recently about how they’re going to make sure our newborn gets enough rice and beans).  They both sit on their porches everyday, or—more frequently—on each others porches.

The fact that there are porches present at all in a newer development indicates that the suburb was built in the ‘90s or later by a developer who showed at least some interest in New Urbanism. Porches and lots where there’s room for a garden are hallmarks of the movement along with walkable town centres with high-density affordable housing.

Comment #82: Gracchus.  on  08/18  at  03:36 PM

I’ve definitely seen some of that brand-new community-oriented housing in Austin, though mostly around the old airport area, which is in-town. 

I reread my post, and I see that I made it clear that the radio talk show audiences are often already conservative, that far from all live in the classic gated community housing, and nor did I say “all” suburbs were like this.  Just that there’s a very common type—-bekabot nailed it—-and they are largely the audience for Dr. Laura.  And I wasn’t making grand statements about What Makes A Conservative or All Suburbs Are Identical.  I was actually, reading my post, writing about how Dr. Laura’s show crafts its appeal to her intended audience, and why that radicalizes them.

Comment #83: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/18  at  03:50 PM

streets without sidewalks

Our outer-ring suburb was pretty typical, but recently they put sewers and sidewalks in on my parent’s street, about a mile or two out of “downtown.”  My mom initially thought sidewalks were the stupidest waste of money possible - everyone knew our neighborhood was dead and boring, who the hell would use them?  She was amazed at how much the place perked up the instant the concrete dried.  She may actually meet her neighbors  now that she can walk outside.  Hell, the new fancy community gym is now a brisk warm-up walk away.

Comment #84: Kyso K  on  08/18  at  03:51 PM

Dr. Laura:  “I don’t care about who you are.  I care about what you said.”

Sounds like it time to dust off this video again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0Ti-gkJiXc&feature=related

Comment #85: Smartpatrol  on  08/18  at  03:54 PM

If your own unique wonderful suburb is so great, then it’s not fucking about you.  I never said every single suburb was identical.


No, but you did make a generalizaton about suburbs and people who live in them, one which posters say does not match their own observations and experiences.  Your generalization doesn’t match my observations of mid-atlantic, midwest and deep south suburbs either.

My ideas don’t work unless you accept that the isolated existence of the suburbs affects people negatively.

What those of us who disagree with your assumption that suburban life is generally an isolated existence.  Mythago at #52 has it right, IMO, including that these assumptions smack of urban hipsters.

Comment #86: MiddleageLiberal  on  08/18  at  03:54 PM

And, again, I agree with your point that since certain types of people hold certain views, they’re going to live certain places and listen to people who double down on those views in bizarre ways.  You talked about white flight, and that’s a great example.  When a lot of hispanic families start moving into a neighborhood, white folks move on.  Then, what was a previously isolated community becomes far more open and friendly.  Just, as the neighborhood becomes more diverse in general—or possibly less well-off—it also becomes more of a community.  I’m not saying that you had to bring up race or class, so I’m sorry that ignore was the wrong word choice.  I was more trying to bring those things up myself.  When a community is full of people who are living paycheck to paycheck, there’s motivation to know your neighbors and build a community that knows each other and works together.  If you can’t pay for childcare, and you can’t miss work, knowing your neighbors becomes a necessity. 

I also just didn’t know where you were talking about.  You could literally have been referring to my suburban neighborhood, and the tone you took did seem to be painting all of suburbia with one big rich white person brush.  You backed off of that, so it makes a lot more sense now. 

And yeah, most of Cedar park—one of the last primarily white middle class areas in austin—is exactly as you describe.  It is, in fact, where the white people ran to.  Round Rock as well. 

The only reason I went “wait, what?” is because you specifically used areas I have experiences with as examples and my experience wasn’t anything like you described.  I was trying to say that’s probably because of a different race/class make up than whatever areas you must have actually been referring to, and that seems to be the case.

It’s super weird that people are suddenly, for no reason whatsoever, in denial about the expansion of sidewalk free gated community type suburbs.  WTF, seriously.

I hope that wasn’t directed at me, like the rest of your comment was, considering that I never denied that and in fact gave an example of one.

But to talk exclusively about those, and then call that “suburbia” rather than “rich, white suburbia” erases a shit ton of suburban communities that aren’t anything like you describe.  I assume you didn’t mean to do that, but you kind of did, without clarifying that you were in fact talking about a very specific white/rich-ish phenomenon, so I was trying to point out that you were.  I wasn’t trying to say your examples don’t exist, just that they exist in a specific context, and there’s another context, and that’s kind of interesting when related to your initial post.  I think it goes hand in hand, personally.

Comment #87: Ailuridae  on  08/18  at  03:58 PM

I repeat, point to where I said “all” suburbs, much less that all suburbanites listen to Dr. Laura.  I even made it clear that only some people actually have the kind of over the top houses that are the extreme.  The only reason to feel I made an absolutist statement is if you feel defensive about your home, and if it’s super great, I see no reason to feel defensive.

Comment #88: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/18  at  03:59 PM

All, I’m sorry I didn’t weigh down my post with a million caveats that would have turned it into an unreadable mess.  I assumed, incorrectly, that people would grasp the basic parameters of the standard issue conservative suburb I was talking about, the one I explicitly describe as conservative.

Comment #89: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/18  at  04:00 PM

Also, Round Rock, TX—-a large suburb (probably the largest) of Austin is notoriously conservative.  They’re often at the top of the list of book banning scandals.

It’s interesting that you mention this, because this conversation had me thinking about Ray Bradbury’s Fahrenheit 451. The primary theme of the book is not really about censorship and book-burning—those are side effects of a very suburbanised dystopia where people seek ersatz community through vapid “video wall” soap operas about “the neighbours” and other homogenised mass-media distractions (he must take a special horror these days in the advent of reality TV and talk-radio shrinks).

Bradbury was writing this in 1951, just as the automobile suburbs were coming into their own. And traditional small-town life (positive and negative aspects included) was also a continual theme for Bradbury, who spent a lot of time thinking about how non-urban communities change.

Comment #90: Gracchus.  on  08/18  at  04:02 PM

Seriously, I even took the time to describe the specific kind of housing to make it clear what kind of community I was describing.  So I fail to see why you read yourself into the post, All.  You said you had a porch and you don’t feel isolated.  Here’s what I wrote:

You have a lot of conservative types who have big houses with no real front yard and certainly no porch to speak of.  Most of their journeys outside of their home don’t even involve breathing the air around their homes—-they hop into their car in the garage and pull out into the street, creating an actual physical boundary between them and their supposed communities at all times.

I fail to see how you think this describes you.  I really do.

Comment #91: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/18  at  04:03 PM

I was actually, reading my post, writing about how Dr. Laura’s show crafts its appeal to her intended audience, and why that radicalizes them.

Yeah, I didn’t have any questions about the original post.  I thought it was spot on.  I literally just had questions about the comments I quoted.  And I wasn’t agreeing with DBK, I actually didn’t read any of their comments at all, since they seemed to be saying “you’re stereotyping conservatives!” which I don’t care about.  I was just confused by “Austin suburbia is like this” without any qualifiers regarding race or class so I was trying to bring them up.

Comment #92: Ailuridae  on  08/18  at  04:03 PM

Can we all just agree that “Dr.” Laura is a vile person who takes advantage of people — some of whom are in desperate need of professional counseling or psychiatric services but may not be able to afford them, others who are just look for some positive reinforcement of their life choices — just so many other people can listen in and feel superior to the callers?  While being all too well paid for rendering that “service”?

It don’t matter if you’re in the ‘Burbs, or the Big City, or way out in the countryside.  What she says (which is typically just the sort of generic “Dear Abby” pablum that’s been around for years) is too often hurtful, and her “common sense” is too often wingnut- and religious-nut-flavored pop-psych crap.

I would bet that for every person who was “helped” by her, there are dozens who were harmed.

In the end I guess you can say one thing for her.  “Dr.” Laura may have helped someone, somewhere.  OTOH, Rush Limbaugh has been nothing but a menace to civil society his entire radio career (probably even including when he was doing play-by-play)...

Comment #93: MikeEss  on  08/18  at  04:08 PM

I fail to see how you think this describes you.  I really do.

Um, I don’t, which is why I commented.  You made a post I agreed with about “Suburbia” and I was like cool yeah, the world is totally like that.  Then someone else said something like"nu-uh” or something and you were all “yes huh, in Austin and some other places anyway” and I was like “Wait, I live in a suburb in Austin and it’s not like that.  Maybe the places that she was in that were suburbs in Austin were different for other reasons.  Cedar Park is not like Dove Springs, Round Rock is not like Pflugerville.”  So I brought those reasons up.  I was never saying you should add or take away anything to your post.  Your post is great.  Two thumbs up and a cookie.  I’m not even disagreeing with you, Amanda.

Comment #94: Ailuridae  on  08/18  at  04:12 PM

In the end I guess you can say one thing for her.  “Dr.” Laura may have helped someone, somewhere

I don’t believe that for a second.

Comment #95: Ailuridae  on  08/18  at  04:17 PM

All, I’m sorry I didn’t weigh down my post with a million caveats that would have turned it into an unreadable mess.  I assumed, incorrectly, that people would grasp the basic parameters of the standard issue conservative suburb I was talking about, the one I explicitly describe as conservative.

Comment #89: Amanda Marcotte

Not my <strike>neighborhood</strike> Nigel!  Mine is a suburban utopia where unicorns prance on the lawns shooting rainbow ice cream out their asses while fairies and lawn gnomes dance in rings around the barbeque pits that started as rock-soup but now because my neighbors (who aren’t hipsters) brought enough pot luck to feed the 7th regiment.

Seriously people, we understand that progressives *do* live in the ‘burbs.  Progressives in the ‘burbs worked their ASSES off 2 years ago to try and ger Darcy Burner elected in my state.  But you are a minority.  It’s why, sadly, Darcy lost.  It’s why “Dr” Laura and her ilk are making a killing on the radio.  Because the ‘burbs are still White-topia, and why we love our progressive in the ‘burbs and try and work with them to make America better, you are a minority.

Comment #96: cynickal  on  08/18  at  04:17 PM

It don’t matter if you’re in the ‘Burbs, or the Big City, or way out in the countryside.

But it does. Part of Amanda’s point is that people who have no real sense of community but an outsized sense of entitlement are more susceptible to right-wing grifters like Dr. Laura, and that there are a lot of those people stuck in and, to a certain extent, created by sidewalk-less exburbs.

That’s not to say that people who live in cities and traditional small towns or pre-‘70s suburbs or New Urban ‘burbs aren’t as susceptible on an individual basis. But in those places it’s a lot harder to give into the temptation of phoney-baloney community because they offer the alternative of real community for those who want it. For example, if petty and nasty busybodies are your thing, small-town church ladies or Greenwich Village community board members give a lot more authentic satisfaction than Dr. Laura.

Comment #97: Gracchus.  on  08/18  at  04:27 PM

Not my neighborhood Nigel!  Mine is a suburban utopia where unicorns prance on the lawns shooting rainbow ice cream out their asses while fairies and lawn gnomes dance in rings around the barbeque pits that started as rock-soup but now because my neighbors (who aren’t hipsters) brought enough pot luck to feed the 7th regiment.

I’m not trying to say my neighborhood is great, I’m trying to say that my neighborhood is different—not because there are unicorns in it but because there are not-rich people and/or people of color.  And not-rich people and people of color still live in suburbia, and maybe that’s relevant to the point Amanda was making.  I wasn’t saying she needed to bring that up, which is why *I* brought it up.  I never said that she needed to take away or add anything regarding her post, although I was pointing out that she was erasing a particular experience by not.  She can do that, she’s writing a blog post not a book as she said.  I thought that’s what the comments were for.  To bring up those things that didn’t make the original post but are relevant to the discussion at hand and to feminism in general, like, oh I don’t know, race and class maybe?

I was not disagreeing with her.  I was trying to get clarification and expand on the point that I completely agree with OMG.  White flight seems like a pretty relevant topic to this discussion, for instance.  And look!  It was eventually brought up! 

I do disagree that the ‘burbs are white-topia.  I think in more and more areas of the country they’re becoming more diverse—which is why the ‘burbs that remain white-topia are walling themselves off from their neighbors.  Do you see my point now?  Part of why white rich conservatives are creating little castles for themselves is specifically because their turf is being encroached upon by “undesirables.”  Everytime a neighborhood throws a block party I’m sure white people start thinking of moving to that gated community ASAP.  Part of the reason they get int he car while they’re still in their garage and don’t go outside and don’t talk to anyone is because now maybe their neighbor is a person of color.  That’s part of the reason the fear-mongering radio personalities are so popular rather than just flipping to some music for the long drive.  Because conservatives are already scared when they get in their cars.  I don’t think it would work nearly as well if large sections of suburbia weren’t becoming more racially diverse, and if the middle class wasn’t growing to include families who were, a generation ago, well below the poverty line but are becoming more and more well off as time goes on.

Comment #98: Ailuridae  on  08/18  at  04:37 PM

BTW, when “Dr.” Laura was ripping that poor Black woman a new a-hole for being “too sensitive” about race issues, I bet she was speaking for an awful lot of her audience.  And that’s a very scary thing.

All those holier-than-thou white people who eat up the teabagger crap and the “Dr.” Laura crap, all those insane Rushdoony-poisoned Beck-er Necks and other Christian Dominionists who want to turn America into the Conservative Christian country they just know Jesus wants it to be, all those people who are ready to bomb and invade to get Our Oil and Our Minerals out from under whoever happened to live on top of it, the Reichwing Lunatic Fringe — those people are real, the’re out there, and they’re waiting for their chance.

We ignore their existence at our peril…

Comment #99: MikeEss  on  08/18  at  04:41 PM

Certainly.  I grew up in small towns, and while people knew or even talked about what other people did - it was hard not to know, you’d run into the same people over and over anyhow - there was much less consideration to condemn their actions.  People in small towns are no more moral than people in cities!  And the towns I grew up in rather accepted this:  Or, actually, didn’t get involved in other people’s lives.

The veritable ‘church lady’ never managed to have much influence in the towns I grew up in, nor the community we’ve chosen to live today.  It’s a bedroom community, mostly exurb really.  Of course, my suburb is really the remnants of a tiny logging/tourist town and many conservatives can’t seem to manage to live here.  Lots you can’t build garages on?  Houses with trees surrounding them?  Entire neighborhoods without fences?  It blows their minds.

Comment #100: Crissa  on  08/18  at  04:44 PM

Oh, it’s like the McDonald’s commercials or Reagan’s ‘Morning in America’ commercials with the farmer stopping to get two egg mcmuffins before going out into the fields… McDonald’s don’t exist in such places.  It’s artificial.

Comment #101: Crissa  on  08/18  at  04:48 PM

This post really makes a lot of sense. I grew up on the South shore of Long Island and I did have a defensive reaction at first to this post, but then I thought “Oh she probably means gated communities, McMansions and Exurbs.”

Comment #102: MissCherryPi  on  08/18  at  04:48 PM

Gracchus:

I would go even further than this: it would be almost impossible to have hate-talkers like Limbaugh and Schlesinger without far-flung exurbia. You need those huge chunks of time when people are alone in their cars. If they’re at home or in a small-business office, they can have a TV for background (and they will want to avoid things that are too controversial, especially if they have kids).

That’s the other part of it: if you’re spending 2-4 hours a day alone in a vehicle, unable to read or focus very solidly on anything, you have both a huge chunk of resentment and a lot less energy and time to do neighborly things.

Comment #103: paul  on  08/18  at  04:49 PM

This post is so spot on. I am from a small town and went to school in a big city and was always so annoyed by the faux small town loving suburbanites. Small towns are hardly progressive paradises and have many faults, but it is so annoying to move to a large city and have to answer for the imaginary small towns of david brooks’ imagination. I would even catch myself feeling all “damn east-coast monopoly of the media” sometimes, even though I am somewhat of a liberal hipster douche myself. I love cities and hope to find a job in one eventually, but I would prefer a small town like the one i am from over a sidewalk-less suburb any day.

Amanda is right about the feel of urban areas being closer to small towns than to suburbs—I am livin back home since I am jobless, and the streets are in a grid pattern and there are sidwalks everywhere and you only need a car when you have to hall something heavy.

When isolation of the suburbs is discussed, it doesn’t mean that no one has friends, but in the post 60s style housing developments you miss out on spontaneous interactions. The friends you choose tend to be people like you who reflect your values, lifestyle, etc and the times you spend with these people are often planned. When you live in a place where people walk around and hang out on their porches and front yards, you get a lot more interaction with passerbys, other neighborhood kids, etc. so people who are different than you are more obvious and less unsettling. In my experience, random run-ins that lead to small talk about the weather and what so-and-so is up to brighten my mood and make me feel more connected and cared about and happy.

I also have to second the reccomendation for bowling alone. It is about how suburban planning detiorates “social capital” and it is a huge deal in polisci academia. I would also check out some of the literature on white flight and the push to suburbanization by the FHA, etc. IIRC, American Apartheid and When Work Dissappears are pretty good books. Nate Silver’s Ted Talk sort of touches on this theme, but only tangentially. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkPI-Y2Vg5k

And obviously there is a lot of variety in suburban communities. In recent decades, many urban planners specifically designed not to create isolation from neighbors in their developments. But the overall trend of suburbanizatino and isolation is a huge, well-studied phenomena, and I think Amanda is spot-on with how that phenomena created a demand for faux-small town folksy-ness

Comment #104: alysia  on  08/18  at  04:51 PM

Whenever this topic of community and togetherness comes up, I’m usually nodding along… until I realize that I kind of like being isolated from my neighbors and not knowing anything about them.  I live in a suburb and have no desire to have more connection with the people around me, and I’m still pretty far to the left politically.  So I question whether social isolation breeds conservative politics, or communal involvement breeds liberal politics, or whether conservative politics drive the choice of social isolation, etc.  But I’m basically a misanthrope, so YMMV.

Comment #105: FlipYrWhig  on  08/18  at  05:30 PM

Amanda @88 - c’mon. I made a generalization and if you think it’s incorrect you’re just defensive? Shit, isn’t that part of the standard MRA playbook? “Hey, I clearly didn’t mean ALL women just because I said ‘women’, so why are you taking it so personally? I’m sure you and your friends aren’t gold-digging bitches, which means I’m not talking about you guys, so what’s the beef?”

Ailuridae @98 is right. Erasing the existence of POC who live in suburbs to make a rhetorical point is silly, and ignores “white flight” that goes from less-wealthy to more-wealthy suburbs (instead of the old pattern from urban to suburban).

I would go even further than this: it would be almost impossible to have hate-talkers like Limbaugh and Schlesinger without far-flung exurbia. You need those huge chunks of time when people are alone in their cars.

Are you kidding? Do you know what a “Rush Room” is? People don’t need to be isolated to groove on hate talk.

Comment #106: mythago  on  08/18  at  05:36 PM

I’m with you, FlipYrWhig.  I live in a suburb and I have no desire to have more connection with the people around me.  I let them be and they let me be.

And Amanda, your description of suburbs in Texas really doesn’t have much applicability to the suburbs of NYC, Boston, Philadelphia, Chicago.  Those suburbs are far, far bluer than you’d think, because they reflect an overall blue-state ethos.  I think you’re engaging of stereotypes of suburbs that are based on your experience with Texas suburbs, and as we all know, Texas isn’t a microcosm of much in the United States, and is in fact an aberration from the perspective of most of New England, Mid-Atlantic and Upper Midwest states.

Comment #107: Susanne  on  08/18  at  05:37 PM

I live in a suburb and have no desire to have more connection with the people around me, and I’m still pretty far to the left politically.

Well, there’s a large difference between a misanthrope and a bigot.

Comment #108: Gracchus.  on  08/18  at  05:38 PM

I have no quarrel with the substance of the post but, speaking as a resident of a rural town of 14,000, I’ve got more authentic, close-knit community (read: jock-sniffing busybodies) than I can stand.  Anybody want to trade me for their isolating, soul-killing, sidewalk-free suburban whatever?  I promise I’ll only ever listen to NPR on the way to work…

Comment #109: Microwave Bacon  on  08/18  at  05:40 PM

#77: The shoddy construction gives a stage-set feeling to such homes and places. Rather like “The Truman Show.”

I think there’s definitely an aesthetic dimension to the middle-class suburban wingers’ hysteria. They are bored because there isn’t enough texture or minor conflict in their lives, the physical and social grit that urban dwellers (and working-class rural dwellers) routinely encounter. It’s all been papered over with the wallboard, plastic molding, and rolled-out sod of cheap new construction. The archaic hunter-gatherers in us crave texture.

So the suburbanite wingers turn to media that amp up the conflict, that energize them with fears of the (secular or religious) apocalypse, the coming zombie invasion.

Comment #110: sara  on  08/18  at  05:50 PM

For example Collin Cowherd on ESPN loves to talk about how much of an advantage states with lower taxes have when it comes to attracting pro-athletes, which seems innaccurate as the two winningest teams i can think of our the New England Patriots and the LA Lakers which are both in high tax states; but he will always present it as fact.

For baseball, and presumably all sports, many states tax visiting players for income earned in-state. Not to mention that the season for every sport is short enough that your state of residence can be wherever you want.

Comment #111: Tree  on  08/18  at  05:56 PM

This post is spot on. As far as the suburb debate, let’s take Great Neck that someone mentioned as an example, which I would argue isn’t a suburb by design. It’s an old farming community that then grew into a village and then into a commuter town. I think there’s a difference between that sort of a small town that is being encroached upon by a huge metropolis and the kind of suburb that Amanda is talking about. Great Neck also has a huge immigrant Iranian and Orthodox Jewish populations. In my experience, immigrant communities tend to be tight-knit. Orthodox are the very definition of tight-knit community. I think it was pretty clear that a diverse, fairly densely populated town/suburb that has a town center, walkable spaces and community features, and extensive public transportation connecting it to the bigger metropolis nearby is precisely NOT what Amanda had in mind.

And for the East coasters maintaining that the burbs out there aren’t like that, two words: New Jersey. Sure, there are plenty of those quaint little small towns like Morristown in NJ. There are even a handful of urban towns like Newark, Jersey City or Hoboken. But there are even more of the classic Havnanian developments with McMansions or just big-ish homes on tiny lots, sidewalks going to nowhere, surrounded by a strip of what was left of the woods, one road in and one road out, strip mall a few miles away, a bigger mall even further away, no community features where people might interact (parks, cafes, restaurants, bookstores, movie theaters, gyms) that you can walk to, and a park-and-ride with a bus service going pretty much straight to NYC. Well, no, you could theoretically walk to a movie theater or a Starbucks or even the bus stop - usually about a mile or so away - if you were willing to risk your life by sharing the road with giant SUVs. No sidewalks!

My folks moved to a NJ hell-hole like that from Brooklyn. No one talks to each other, aside from maybe a “hello” while taking out the trash. They like it, so more power to them. Maybe I am an urban hipster, but every time I’m out there, I can’t help feeling trapped. It was pretty clear to me right off the bat that’s the burb Amanda was talking about. Personally, I also don’t feel particularly guilty feeling suspicious about the motivation for moving into those kinds of places. The denizens might not all be conservative, but most of them sure are fearful of something.

Comment #112: elena  on  08/18  at  06:06 PM

I don’t know anything about the Chicago area, really, but you can see the point of this post illustrated on the front lawns throughout the Madison and Milwaukee area.  Within the city limits you were more likely to see an obama sign, or more recently, a tom barrett sign.  In the suburbs, you were more likely to see a McCain sign or Scott Walker sign.  In the case of Wisconsin, the isolation factor has to do the fear of people of color.  I would even garner to say that some of the small towns are less racist then the suburbs of Madison or Milwaukee simply because they haven’t been exposed to these ideas.  However, I wonder if small town life isn’t changing somewhat with the spread of Faux news and right wing radio.

Comment #113: kitten parade  on  08/18  at  06:13 PM

I am from a suburb (exurb?) of Philadelphia that was soulless/sidewalkless & saw many more just like it.  Growing up, I didn’t really even consider the inner circle of suburbs ‘suburbs.’  With their easy access to the city via trains, they seemed more like city neighborhoods.  While the suburbs of Philly are generally more ‘blue’ I’m sure than the south and texas, many still listen to this kind of shit on the radio and the generalization is not far off the mark at all.  When I lived there, I used to envy my friends in the next town over who could walk or bike to each other’s houses and had a main street with, like, an ice cream shop.  I could walk 45 min on a 40 mph road with no sidewalks and get to a 7-11. 

New Jersey is also like this in many many places, and in a lot of ways NJ is a suburb of NYC.

Comment #114: laurelin  on  08/18  at  06:15 PM

I think, Ailuridae, that you and I, if not you and Amanda, would still differ on one important point.  You seem to believe that it’s the righties who create the exurbs.  (I use that word for a reason.  I live around the exurbs now but used to live in the suburbs, and I agree with you that although suburbs and exurbs share some superficial features they’re not that similar at the base.  The person who sure could use a big car in the suburbs, for example, is the same person who more or less needs a big car in the exurbs.  The difference between being in a situation in which you’d like to have a thing but can manage to live without it and being in a situation where you almost literally can’t survive without that same article is vast.)  What I contend is that the developers create the exurbs and that the exurbs create the righties.

I’m not trying to fabricate any villains here.  My Dad was in the construction business and I’ve got nothing against developers.  I understand that they put together housing developments partly on the basis of what people want but also that they put housing developments together partly on the basis of what will make the best appearance at the least cost and of what is just plain easiest to do.  (If you’re building on a plot of wooded land it’s simpler and cheaper to cut down all of the trees and then put in new ones if you want them than to try to save any of the growth that is already there.)  I realize that not only do people have to live somewhere but that in the last few decades (from at least the 90’s on) the exurbs have looked kind of pioneer-like and adventurous in one sense and reassuring and cozy in another.  Little House on the Prairie meets Outland.  How to improve on that?

Plus, standards have changed.  The idea used to be that to make the best use of a given plot of land you had to include some landscaping.  Now the goal is to fit a house with the greatest possible number of square feet to its name onto a specific individual lot—with room to spare for the inclusion of a garage capable of holding a least two cars.  Easy access to arterial roads used to be regarded as a near-necessity.  Not anymore.  (There are lots of reasons for this and I’m not going to list them here because this has already turned into an overlong post.)  Long story short, then, what I’m getting at is I believe that people who put down roots, or try to, in the midst of surroundings which, for one reason or another, militate against that, and who start out with vague political opinions or none, will end up being made harried and suspicious and prone to frustration, and that these qualities, acquired and not inborn, will find some sort of political expression as inevitably as water flows downhill.  This remains as true for relatively affluent people as for poorer ones.

And don’t forget that these are the same people who subject themselves to marathon commutes or who (in the case of the stay-at-home kids’-moms) spend tons and tons and acres of time driving their tykes from Point A to Point B.  So they listen to radio, lots of it.  The radio lends form and direction to inchoate angst and in the fullness of time a rightie is produced.  I’m simplifying, of course.  But I’m on side of Darwin, who said that while living things impact their environment, it’s the environment that outright molds living things.  Humans are not exempt, which is why humans ought to pay more attention to their surroundings than they do.

Comment #115: bekabot  on  08/18  at  06:29 PM

From my experience, podunk rural Nebraska (I’m talking villages of a couple hundred people surrounded by vast stretches of dirt farms) was notably less misogynist, racist, xenophobic, and homophobic than the Phoenician suburbs and both regions are quite red. So, based on that, I’m in agreement with Amanda on this one. That’s why the stereotype of low-income rural communities being full of irretrievably ignorant torch-wielding rednecks has always bugged the shit out of me. It’s a classist assumption that disappears blue- and pink-collar liberals and moderates and lets white-collar middle-class bigots off the hook.

Comment #116: snobographer  on  08/18  at  06:31 PM

I don’t know anything about the Chicago area, really, but you can see the point of this post illustrated on the front lawns throughout the Madison and Milwaukee area.

It’s a pretty widely discussed fact that historically in the Chicago area, Cook is blue, while the collar counties (Kane, Lake, DuPage, Will) are red. The exburbs are the collar counties.  Cook is Chicago and the older, more urban/town suburbs.

The collar counties, in recent years, haven’t been as solidly red as they have been in the past. They are mainly quite solidly purple right now, falling to one side or the other based more on the national trends. More blue than red in 2008, probably more red than blue in 2010.

Comment #117: hp  on  08/18  at  06:37 PM

Oh, Dr. Laura.  When I was in college, my mother and I used to listen to her as a kind of endurance test: how long could we last before we started screaming at the radio?  Mind you, much of her advice is relatively sane, because 75% of the callers who make it through screening are idiots with problems so obvious even Dr. Laura can solve them.  I mean, when the question is, “Should I deliberately get pregnant so the much-older man I’m sleeping with will leave his wife and kids for me?” you don’t need a degree in psychology to come up with an answer.

It’s with the other 25%, the relatively sensible callers like the poor lady who got the N-word thrown at her, that Dr. Laura turns into a frothing bully.  Her standard approach is to try to get the caller to admit to one of the three following mortal sins:

1. Having sex (or, worse, “cohabitating”) before marriage.
2. Getting divorced, ever, for any reason.
3. Working at a job of any description after giving birth.

Naturally, almost every adult woman in America has done at least one of these things.  Hell, Dr. Laura herself is guilty of all three.  Once the caller has admitted to one of them, Dr. Laura proceeds to blame the caller’s problem on it, no matter what the problem is.  Your husband won’t wash the dishes?  He doesn’t respect you because you lived together before you got married.  You caught your teenager with pot?  It’s got to be because of that part-time job you took for six months when he was ten.  And so on.

And, yes, when I listened to her she consistently counseled against mixed-race and even mixed-religion relationships, using the “Think how hard it will be for your children!” threat-masquerading-as-concern.  Much of her advice was couched in faux concern for The Children: she advised women to stay in abusive marriages, as long as the children weren’t being beaten or raped, because divorce would be so hard on them, and of course mothers weren’t supposed to work, no matter what.  I recall that she often turned her “How dare you leave the house to make dirty, sinful MONEY while your PRECIOUS BABIES LANGUISH in day care?” rants against women who sounded like they came from low-income backgrounds and honestly needed jobs to feed their families, which was particularly foul.

Comment #118: Shaenon  on  08/18  at  07:19 PM

Many people have mentioned Dr. Laura’s jaw-dropping hypocrisy in advising women to essentially do the exact opposite of everything she’s ever done in her life.  I really think this is a feature, not a bug, of right-wing celebrities.  Part of the right-wing authoritarian mindset is the belief that different classes of people deserve different classes of rights.  You see it in the whole stupid debate over the Muslim community center in Manhattan, for example, not to mention any issue involving gay rights.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, superior classes of people are believed to have earned the right to flaunt the rules.  When Rush Limbaugh pops pills, or Dr. Laura cheats on Husband #1 with Husband #2, they’re just displaying the special privileges they’ve earned by being better than other people.  Far from being appalled by it, many of their fans see it as something to aspire to.  When I listened to Dr. Laura’s show, she often made excuses for why it was okay for her to sleep around/get divorced/work outside the home/whatever, but she didn’t make any secret of these things.  If anything, she bragged about her perfect, enviable life as a powerful working woman with an office in the big city and a son who did just fine without her.

Hence all the people who call Dr. Laura’s show even though they’re obviously perfect targets for her wrath and scorn.  They’re looking for confirmation that they’ve earned the right to do stupid, selfish, self-destructive things.  Of course, they never get it, as Dr. Laura invariably smacks them down for having the gall to think they’re on her level.

Comment #119: Shaenon  on  08/18  at  08:03 PM

From my experience, podunk rural Nebraska (I’m talking villages of a couple hundred people surrounded by vast stretches of dirt farms) was notably less misogynist, racist, xenophobic, and homophobic than the Phoenician suburbs

Wait, what?

Comment #120: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/18  at  08:27 PM

bekabot at 115: Many people whose aesthetic tastes run into the urban, would argue that American style automobile suburbs are actually a result of central planning. Matt Yglesias and others have made a convincing case that various federal, state, and local laws and regulations are the cause of sprawl. Take for example, zoning. By strictly separating residential and commercial land, you create a situation where its impossible to create a community where people can walk to the store. By limiting the type of housing to single-family homes, you get to control the density and make transit not that easy to plan.
 
  Conservatives aren’t necessarily blind to suburbs leading to a more conservative leaning public. Even before mass car ownership, conservatives knew that their base was likely to come from less dense areas. The Republicans were big supporters of building the New York City subway in the early 20th century because they believed if you can get a voter out of Manhattan and put him in a house or bigger apartment in the outer boroughs with a mortgage slapped on him, you would get a Republican. The same thought went into the suburbs, get people out of the cities and in houses and you get Republicans. The success of this experiment has been mixed but the theory was always there. The Democrats went along with this because they saw mass homeownership as helping people. It was the American equivalent of the post-War European housing estates to liberals and progressives.

Comment #121: Lee  on  08/18  at  08:39 PM

“But the overall trend of suburbanizatino and isolation is a huge, well-studied phenomena, and I think Amanda is spot-on with how that phenomena created a demand for faux-small town folksy-ness.”

Exactly.  Why the hell is there a debate about this again?

“Take for example, zoning. By strictly separating residential and commercial land, you create a situation where its impossible to create a community where people can walk to the store. By limiting the type of housing to single-family homes, you get to control the density and make transit not that easy to plan.”

Yes.  And that last part is very much the problem that most places west of the Mississippi have.  Because even the newer suburbs and exurbs in the East Coast have the tradition of trains and subways to build on - something you don’t really have in the West Coast or flyover states.  It’s not weird, if one lives in a Boston suburb, to drive a decent distance to the T station and then take the train the rest of the way into work.  That’s freakin’ unheard of out here in SoCal - and it makes a big impact on not just how those major cities grow, but also on how and where suburbs and houses and freeways and rail lines are built.

Comment #122: jennygadget  on  08/18  at  09:08 PM

#116, I grew up not far from NE, and I totally agree with you. Where I am from, race simply isn’t an issue. When I moved to DC I was absolutely shocked at how race plays such a big role in peoples everyday lives and how afraid white people are of black people. In the super-white areas of the Midwest there are not stories of scary black people on the news, school and neighborhood quality is not judged relative to the percent of minorities, etc. I really only new about black people from Sesame Street and the Cosbys. This other kid from Iowa and I used to always get together and vent at how flabbergasted on a daily basis we were by the amount of racism in the city.

I also think it is a mistake to assume that all bigots are Republicans. The most racist people I have ever met are from super blue, super rich Potomac, MD. It is possible and all to prevalent to have voted for Obama and still not want your kids going to school with too many minorities (usually dressed up as desiring good or safe schools). Most people in the US, regardless of stated political affiliation, are at least somewhat beholden to gender and racial social norms.

Comment #123: alysia  on  08/18  at  09:39 PM

I live outside of the city so I can have a barn and a horse and a big yard for my dogs. I pay the price for this with an hour commute each way into the city to work (30 mins with no traffic to visit friends), but I grew up on a ranch and never did get used to city living. (I lived in the city for around 6 years.) I mean, I liked the convenience of it, but I like my horse better. The rent is way cheaper per sq foot as well. The price I’m paying now for a small pasture, a barn, a garage, a front yard, a back yard, and a 3 bedroom house would get me a 2 bedroom apt with noisy children living above me in the city.

I know this doesn’t sound like a “suburb” but I live in Redmond, a suburb of Seattle.

Comment #124: slingshot  on  08/18  at  09:41 PM

But of course you strictly separate residential and commercial land, because it would be too dangerous for kids to live around the multilane roads and enormous parking lots that any commercial enterprise requires. Oh, wait.

It all works together.

Once, visiting inlaws in Ohio, we went to a new shopping/office complex that was hailed as the wave of the future: it had a walkable main street, lots of foot traffic, people looking like they were having a great time… Set in the middle of about a square mile of parking lot so that they could all put their cars somewhere.

Comment #125: paul  on  08/18  at  09:41 PM

jennygadget: SoCal had one of the largest interurban networks in the United States, the Pacific Electric. Practically everywhere in the United States had trains and trams prior to the car. Its just that most places tended to be less populous and built up prior to WWII, leading to suburbia as we know it once the car was adopted.

Comment #126: Lee  on  08/18  at  10:02 PM

Paul:  I live in Ohio, too, and if you’re talking northeast Ohio then I know what you’re talking about.  I’m a spoiled college-towner, which means I hate, hate, hate driving to the city because I hate having to ditch the car.  However, public transit around here is basically designed to be as confusing and inconvenient as possible, so even something as simple as driving to where the public transit is and using it is rarely feasible.  And every year I get a new crop of mostly-foreign students divided into roughly two camps: one gets cars immediately because they can afford it and some of them like it as a status symbol, and another struggles to do without, believing they can’t afford what is so clearly an optional luxury.  The second group usually breaks after the first winter: you need a car here.

Comment #127: Kyso K  on  08/18  at  10:03 PM

In defense of the “sidewalks to nowhere” - I spent five years as a Pedestrian and Bicycle Planner.  We started requiring developers to build them.  Yes, even if they went nowhere, we just started denying sidewalk waivers.  This is because we discovered that going back into a community and building a sidewalk where there hadn’t been one is SO EXPENSIVE that it’s nearly impossible, so that even if developers were building subdivision types that we didn’t like that weren’t particularly walkable, we’d still make them build sidewalks, so that if, sometime in the imaginary future we were able to build more sidewalks, there’d be something to connect them to.  Sidewalks to nowhere are just a piece of the puzzle that we were trying to put together, and while they can seem worthless where they exist, I can’t tell you the number of road/highway renovation projects that we’d put in a whole piece about how as part of their new project they could connect these two pieces of sidewalks to nowhere and have them lead from one community to the next. 

It’s a small thing, but given the awful way that a lot of suburban DC-area has been built, and how much the government is paying to try to rectify these problems ($1-2 million a mile for sidewalk projects (4 years ago) because we’re not able to use quick take eminent domain for sidewalk projects, that’s for road projects only) we felt it best to have all new developers add sidewalks regardless, because it costs them SO LITTLE and going back to fix it is crazy expensive.

Comment #128: Mimi  on  08/18  at  10:45 PM

Alysia, the lack of minority people in an area does not mean that people are not racist, it just means that they have little opportunity or stimulus to display that racism.

I grew up in Oregon, which is very white, so I know from what I speak.  Too easy to say “no deal here so we aren’t racist” when the reality is that people would freak and get totally rude were a black family or two moved to town.

Comment #129: Ms Kate  on  08/18  at  11:12 PM

Lee, you are forgetting a WHOPPING piece of that story now aren’t you?

The electric trains were scrapped in part because General Motors gave “discounts” on new buses on the condition that cities rip up their rail lines.

Comment #130: Ms Kate  on  08/18  at  11:14 PM

Funny how many people I know who grew up in honestly rural areas (not pseudorural suburbs) can’t stand the suburbs and have ended up in urban areas and their immediate environs.

More anecdata to support this hypothesis - I grew up in the middle of nowhere, Wisconsin (outside of a town of 450 people). I lived for about three years in a suburb of the SF Bay Area and hated hated hated it. Now I live in Berkeley by a BART station and absolutely love it.

Comment #131: Ursula  on  08/18  at  11:16 PM

“She has a point, why have babies if you’re going to dump them in daycare”

...you forgot the ”, you dirty sluts!  Why didn’t you keep your legs together?” on the end.

If your heart isn’t really in your trolling, then you might think about giving it up and become a wacky TeaBagger instead…

Comment #132: MikeEss  on  08/18  at  11:45 PM

Yeah, i know, it is why I said race wasn’t an issue—not meaning to imply that people were somehow more morally upstanding and less bigotted. But it is an important distinction because race doesn’t drive people’s decisions and isn’t a part of the political debate. Even if individuals are racist, fear of minorities is not going to be at the fore-front of anyone’s thoughts and it would be strange and nonsensical to plan your living arrangements to isolate yourself from some out-group you are afraid of. There isn’t really an opportunity to think that someone else got the job to which you were entitled because of affirmative action. The type of racism that drives white flight and suburbanization is simply not an issue.

I am also somewhat skeptical that people would be AS racist where I am from relative to homogeneous communities surrounding metropolitan areas because where I am from people just don’t talk about any minority group as a collective to the point where it was sort of jarring the first times I heard “black people do X” type language. It just, to me, seemed like a strange new paradigm. Its totally possible, however, that I am just really sheltered. The only exception from my experience is that my black family=the cosbys worldview made affirmative action seem archaic, but since being out in the real world (errr….college) I completely support it.

There are a few black families in my town fwiw, and from what I understand they confront more of the “can i touch your hair” racism (which I am sure can be harmful and I don’t mean to dismiss) and not the “are you sure this neighborhood is safe” type, but I also grew up in the 90s and 00s. And, I am beginning to notice some anti-Mexican feelings.

I also don’t want to paint the impression that small towns are all sunshine and rainbows. Our politics seemed to be governed mainly by anxious masculinity. Reproductive rights are under constant threat, and I could not stand living w/my parents as I search for a job if I were not straight. Additionally, there is a sort of a “good-side of the tracks” classist mentality that can really beat the children from poorer families down. (Both the African American girls in my high school class were from “good” families).

Comment #133: alysia  on  08/18  at  11:52 PM

Ms. Kate at 131, the General Motors conspiracy makes for nice venting but I don’t believe in it. The Pacific Electric and other tram systems were torn up because enough people were driving to make tram systems too expensive to operate. Busses were seen as cheaper to operate. Rail Transit survived where people actually used it.

Comment #134: Lee  on  08/18  at  11:56 PM

Chris, does this apply to fathers too?

Comment #135: alysia  on  08/18  at  11:57 PM

Lee, I don’t think that car use could have become so widely used if governments had not set up the infrastructure for them.

Comment #136: alysia  on  08/19  at  12:02 AM

#120, 123, 130 - I’m not saying there was no bigotry in rural Nebraska at all, just that it wasn’t the openly seething kind I saw in and around Phoenix. There was certainly ignorance, and maybe Ms Kate’s right that there was just less opportunity to display bigotry because there were so few racial minorities or LGBT people around. But women are everywhere, and I didn’t regularly hear rural Nebraskans saying degrading shit about them, assessing their worth according to their fuckability and chastity, or asserting that they’re put on earth to serve men - all of which I heard quite often in and around Phoenix. I also could go for a walk in rural Nebraska without being stalked and harassed and grabbed at by strange guys on the street. That also changed when I lived in Phoenix and its suburbs. And how!
Further, the Nebraskans I knew thought Arizona’s resistance to the MLK holiday was ludicrous, thought Rush Limbaugh (or, before him, Jerry Falwell and the “Moral Majority”) was full of shit, and didn’t writhe in disgust at the mere mention of gay people. Phoenix and it’s suburbs are damn ugly that way, and it’s exactly the kind of territory Amanda refers to in her post.

Comment #137: snobographer  on  08/19  at  12:06 AM

Also, Phoenix was way more bible-thumpy. The Nebraskans I knew went to church, but didn’t make a big stinking production of being church-going folks.

Comment #138: snobographer  on  08/19  at  12:08 AM

@Ursula 132 - I know people in your neighborhood.

Comment #139: snobographer  on  08/19  at  12:10 AM

@Chris2 - did you know that upwards of 90% of parents who abandon their children are fathers?

Comment #140: snobographer  on  08/19  at  12:13 AM

Well your post implied that it was a waste of time to have kids if you did not spend all your time with them. 

I always thought that I had breasts because it feels so good when my myriad sex partners play with them. My mistake.

Comment #141: alysia  on  08/19  at  12:18 AM

It’s odd that we’re always hearing about what a huge social crisis working and single mothers and daycare are when comparatively there’s nary a peep about absentee or deadbeat fathers. The closest you usually get is advice to women on how to keep their husbands from straying, but an admonishment to men directly about their own behavior is exceedingly rare.

Comment #142: snobographer  on  08/19  at  12:41 AM

I think some posts may be talking about isolation as in “I never see my neighbors,” and others are talking about isolation as in “I never see anyone who’s not in my socioeconomic status.”  Suburbs with a lot of internal drama and interaction are often still well-isolated from people unlike their inhabitants.

    has basically three college educated journalists who talk as if they spent their entire life living on the farm on the outskirts of the county.

Xeranar @16:
I hope you didn’t mean to imply that college educated people would not be living on a farm, that it is not possible to have been living on a farm while getting an education, etc, but that sure is how this came off.
Comment #51: helen w. h.  on 08/18 at 12:56 PM

It didn’t to me.  It means they’re putting on a fake folksy act, so that people who have never been on a farm would be fooled.

I’m reminded of how many stupid conservative/reactionary/racist emails use the word “folks.”  Often even beginning with the word.  “Folks, did you realize Barack Obama blah blah woof woof…”

I ... may have deliberately scheduled one of the recurring activities I drive to during the week during the Diane Rehm Show.
Comment #59: purpleshoes on 08/18 at 01:26 PM

Hurrah to you if you did!  She is one of the most well-informed radio talk show hosts, and unafraid to ask questions more than once if a guest is playing games.

I have several local public radio stations to choose from, and the talk radio choices are good, both local and national.  I count myself lucky to live in a city that is majority African-American and working-class.

#116, I grew up not far from NE, and I totally agree with you. Where I am from, race simply isn’t an issue. When I moved to DC I was absolutely shocked at how race plays such a big role in peoples everyday lives and how afraid white people are of black people. In the super-white areas of the Midwest there are not stories of scary black people on the news, school and neighborhood quality is not judged relative to the percent of minorities, etc. I really only new about black people from Sesame Street and the Cosbys. This other kid from Iowa and I used to always get together and vent at how flabbergasted on a daily basis we were by the amount of racism in the city.
Comment #123: alysia on 08/18 at 08:39 PM

Up to a point, the more you encounter a minority, the more threatening they are.  Why would anyone be threatened by someone they’re never going to meet?  I mean, yeah, it still happens, but happily not always.

Comment #143: oldfeminist  on  08/19  at  12:43 AM

It’s my own experience, in Wisconsin, that there’s plenty of race talk outside the urban areas.  Even if you don’t count all that stuff about the scary black people in the scary cities, which…I don’t know how the earlier commenters missed?  Maybe because I am *from* the city, people I ran into treated me to their primary city associations, which apparently involve scary black people?  Anyway, even if you don’t count that, there’s all the stuff about “those Indians”—you know, the ones who kill all the game during bow season and laze around eating bon bons all day because of the casino money?  Oh, and the Hmong farmers!  They’re totes Taking Over All the Farms!  And “them Mexicans” who just magically *arrive* for farm work without any of the farm owners making arrangements for that to happen! 

Yup, it’s a race-free zone out there in Dairy Land.

Comment #144: J A  on  08/19  at  01:04 AM

“That’s why women have breasts”?

Really?

I was a stay at home mom for 15 years and -gasp- by child number three I didn’t even attempt to breastfeed.

And my ex was just as capable of caring for our children as I was, in general.

Comment #145: TheRealistMom  on  08/19  at  01:26 AM

My small town was centrist (NY) and not terribly right wing except homophobia. People would help each other and everyone knew your business. You could feel connected if you wanted.

Comment #146: PatrickNM  on  08/19  at  01:47 AM

In northeast small towns no one talks about religion

Comment #147: PatrickNM  on  08/19  at  01:50 AM

@ PatrickNM:  But they do talk about “church.”  I have family in small-town New England and I definitely hear about how the church is getting a new minister and the old one was lousy and no one goes anymore, especially young families, etc., etc.  But I’ve never heard anyone talk about sin or damnation or salvation or, really, religious doctrine of any kind.  It’s more like the church is a social club, and you go because it’s vaguely instructive and/or uplifting.  And, hey, there’s coffee.

Comment #148: FlipYrWhig  on  08/19  at  03:00 AM

Suburbs:

They don’t want sidewalks: http://flic.kr/p/8qkZ2Z

Comment #149: stephen  on  08/19  at  03:37 AM

They are extremely good at radicalizing the troops,
in ways that even the more overt right wing media isnt.
We have no other ways to solve this.
I can’t imagine it in the future.
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Comment #150: qwrfr Green  on  08/19  at  03:44 AM

I always thought that I had breasts because it feels so good when my myriad sex partners play with them. My mistake.

Nah.  You have breasts because we males can’t notice your bum turning purple every month.

Comment #151: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/19  at  03:51 AM

Many people whose aesthetic tastes run into the urban, would argue that American style automobile suburbs are actually a result of central planning. Matt Yglesias and others have made a convincing case that various federal, state, and local laws and regulations are the cause of sprawl.

I don’t disagree with you at all.  But then you have to remember that the requirements set forth by zoning commissions and land-use bureaucrats are rather theoretical, like blueprints.  It’s up to developers to put these directions into practice and they are interested in what will make the best appearance at the least cost and in what is just plain easiest to do.  This is not their fault; they need to make a profit; and they need to do it while operating not only under constraints not only governmental but what I guess you could call “natural”.  (How much water do you have?  How much are you going to have to modify the land you’ve got before you can build on it?  Like that.)  They’re also under the thumb of the taste of their time.  Nobody in 1914 would have dreamed of living in what is basically a warehouse designed to hold people or of doing without a porch.  Now people live in porchless warehouses without question, and those are in the good neighborhoods.

By strictly separating residential and commercial land, you create a situation where its impossible to create a community where people can walk to the store.

 

The upside to such rules is that they mean that you can’t build a factory next to a farmhouse either (1) at all, or (2) without compensating the owner of the farmhouse.  (There are people in South King County who actually want to be able to do that kind of stuff.)  The downside is as you depict it.

By limiting the type of housing to single-family homes, you get to control the density and make transit not that easy to plan.

This is the part which, in my view, was meant to put a limit on the presence of strangers, foreigners, renters, and so forth, right from the start.  That it makes the planning of transit systems into more of a challenge is either a fringe demerit or a fringe benefit, depending on your perspective.  (Though the Pierce County transit system, which is the one I am familiar with, is much better than you’d expect.)

Even before mass car ownership, conservatives knew that their base was likely to come from less dense areas. The Republicans were big supporters of building the New York City subway in the early 20th century because they believed if you can get a voter out of Manhattan and put him in a house or bigger apartment in the outer boroughs with a mortgage slapped on him, you would get a Republican. The same thought went into the suburbs, get people out of the cities and in houses and you get Republicans. The success of this experiment has been mixed but the theory was always there.

Well, and as we can now see, the theory wasn’t wrong.  If the New York City Republicans bungled in supporting the subway in the early 20th century it was only because they underestimated the extent of the physical distance they’d need, and also (I believe) they underestimated the level of indebtedness they had to encourage.  Otherwise, their thinking was right on the money, literally.  (Not that this is a trick that works without fail.  I’m one of those people who believes that the basic human desires are those which tend toward the political left: belonging, interconnectedness, a modicum of security.  It’s hard to counteract all of that entirely.)

Comment #152: bekabot  on  08/19  at  03:55 AM

Lee, you are seriously overestimating the positive impact that commuter rail lines had on neighborhood planning in Southern California.  Especially outside of LA.

Among many things - such as the fact that the rail lines began declining as far back as the 1920s and being dismantled as far back as the 1930s - there is the very simple fact that the east coast relies more on rail lines now not just because of the earlier growth of rail lines, but because of the age of the cities themselves and how that impacts the usefulness of having a car in not only Boston or New York but even Amherst or Northampton.  Unlike LA, Riverside, Colton, San Diego, etc.

I mean, yeah, parking in downtown Pasadena actually costs money (gasp!) - but it’s not hard to find, the streets are wide enough for traffic, and there is no train to take you from downtown to the Huntington.  There may have been once upon a time (one would hope so, considering who established PE), but even when it was in operation it shared the road with cars.  Which means the road and the places along it were built accordingly.  And that’s Pasadena which is old (for SoCal) and close to LA.

It’s not so much about rail lines and how they determine the location of cities or even major destinations within them, it’s more about whether the size and layout of streets and parking in your destination city was influenced by cars and trams or by buggies and pedestrians* - and how that in turn plays a role in how you prefer to both get around while there and therefore also how you prefer to get there.

Destinations in SoCal are spaced for mechanized travel not people - not just between cities, but within cities as well.  Even when one is talking about something as simple as how close the grocery store is. Yes, you can tell where PE used to go though my hometown. However, this isn’t because it established walkable neighborhoods, but because of the nice, long wide avenues it created and the unwalkable distance between the major historical places in town.

Comment #153: jennygadget  on  08/19  at  05:27 AM

“Take for example, zoning. By strictly separating residential and commercial land, you create a situation where its impossible to create a community where people can walk to the store. By limiting the type of housing to single-family homes, you get to control the density and make transit not that easy to plan.”

This is, as someone else said above, intriguing and, I think, not insignificant.  Looking at it from the UK I sort of get the concept of zoning, but hadn’t quite realised exactly what that would mean for areas of new housing unable to, say, add in a row of shops.  A fair chunk of my “community contact” in my (650 year old, tree and park filled, pavement, bus and train using) London suburb is walking to and from the local shops and bumping into people I know.

If you wanted to compare town planning regimes (!) in the UK versus the US, you’d say that the UK planning system is much more restrictive.  In fact, I’ve been on the receiving end of more than one (mostly conservative) rant about how difficult it is to get permission to build anything compared to the US, and how bad it is that government (local and central) has such a high level of control over what you can and can’t build.  You simply can’t have Extreme Makeover: Home Edition in the UK because you can’t get permission to build an entirely new house, wherever you want, and however you want, in just a few days.

But it seems to me that what it does allow is some semblance of actual town planning (ie it’s called “planning”, not “zoning”), which includes things like Traffic Impact Assessments for new developments, and requirements for there to be some kind of community infrastructure in place.  It’s not perfect, for sure - just take a look at all the 1960’s towerblock developments, and the New Towns - but it seems to create less potential for character-free zones.

Sorry, boring planning rant over.

Comment #154: Katherine  on  08/19  at  05:38 AM

Very, very interesting post, illuminating and describing a kind of media that I avoid like the plague, but which is very influential. Also interesting how many people have a bug up their ass about Ms. Marcotte’s description of many American suburbs. Folks if your suburb or town is different, then that is just great… the point is that many American suburbs are exactly as Amanda describes: sterile, lonely and isolating.

Comment #155: atheist  on  08/19  at  07:39 AM

I think whoever suggested Dr. Laura was looking for a way out of renewing her contract at reduced rates was on to something. In Detroit, WJR has been airing her at something like 1 am, opposite Coast To Coast Am. I can’t imagine the ratings are great.

Comment #156: mtbv1  on  08/19  at  07:40 AM

Alysia at 138: Its a chicken and egg problem really. Most of the initial pressuring for good, smooth roads came from bicycle riders. When the car came along, car owners put even more pressure on the government for good, smooth roads that wouldn’t get unusable in rain or snow. This was true in Europe and the Americas. The bicycle literally paved the way for the car.

  bekabot at 156: Factories, slaughterhouses, power plants, and the like are usually classified as industrial rather than commercial.

Comment #157: Lee  on  08/19  at  07:43 AM

Chris2, if only those who could afford to stay home full time had babies, the US birthrate would drop by 60%. I don’t see that as being good or bad, necessarily, but it is something to consider. Furthermore it is better for the economy if mothers work, because the mom has more money to spend, and it creates a job for the daycare provider, who then has more money to spend also. Think of it as the invisible hand rocking the cradle.

My baby goes to daycare 3 days a week and is home with Daddy 2 days a week. I had her by accident, thanks for asking! Because of the Medela company and my awesome employer not caring how I spend my breaks she has been breastfed thru all of it (she is 14 months old and still suckin’).

Comment #158: Yawgmoth  on  08/19  at  08:22 AM

Brilliant social analysis by Amanda.

The transition from the old walkable streetcar suburbs (some of which are still great places to live, and whose revitalization is badly needed) to the new car-dependent self-segregated Levittown model of suburbia was a disaster on many different levels (as plenty of fiction and social commentary has been pointing out almost from the start.) As the financial and environmental costs of gluttonous energy usage gradually make sprawl less and less sustainable, the whole model of post-WWII suburbia will eventually be seen in retrospect as a horrendous dead end, culturally and socially as well as economically. But it will have left massive physical and psychic scars behind.

Comment #159: Steve LaBonne  on  08/19  at  10:21 AM

Morning drive-time shows might be the worst among radio acts at enforcing straight white male supremacy, because they reach a demographic that Limbaugh and Dr. Laura can’t get to.  The obnoxious right wingers are largely recognized as such.  Young, centrist or left-leaning but not politically engaged, people will hear Dr. Laura chanting the n-word and rightly dismiss her as a racist asshat.  But the morning shows are able to dress up their racist, sexist, homophobic crap as ‘funny’ and it slips into the minds of listeners unanalyzed.

Comment #160: libdevil  on  08/19  at  11:21 AM

Katherine @ 158:
I interned at a city Planning Department in MA.  Zoning was one person and an evening community board; conservation a half time person and an evening community board; EPA had a 3/4 time person; transportation (just changed from traffic, despite always including interface with trains) had 1.5 people plus an intern (me); several census workers, and another dozen or so folks I had less direct contact with.  The city engineer’s were a separate office, as were the water and sewer departments. 
It is no easier to get something pushed through in NYC than in London; really.  Especially not in any aea considered historic.  Out in the middle of nowhere with only county government?  There may not even be any real zoning; and if so, it’s not likely to be strictly enforced unless someone complains.  The US has more space and a much high percentage of it that is not within a town or city structure than the UK.

Comment #161: helen w. h.  on  08/19  at  11:25 AM

Factories, slaughterhouses, power plants, and the like are usually classified as industrial rather than commercial.

Sure, but the members of the South King County libertarian crowd refuse to recognize any distinctions at all.  It’s the making of the distinctions I was talking about, not the distinctions themselves.  But you’re right and I’m sorry for my screw-up.

Comment #162: bekabot  on  08/19  at  01:28 PM

helen w. h. at 165, yes the failure to insure that all human settlements are properly incorporated is a big failing in the American political system. Unincorporated communities are a blight on the body politic.

Comment #163: Lee  on  08/19  at  01:43 PM

Kyso K:

It was a suburb of Toledo. And many parts of it were actually pretty decently walkable, not that anyone did, because (as you point out) the unwalkable parts were just enough to make carless living there impossible.

I spent a carless year in Ann Arbor once (close enough to northern ohio, and big but not really pedestrian-hostile), and it was damn hard. You had to think very carefully about where you were going and when, and make sure that you didn’t end up stuck somewhere you couldn’t get back from.

Comment #164: paul  on  08/19  at  02:56 PM

Lee, I don’t care what you believe in.  The discount offers on buses contingent on rails being removed are well documented.

Comment #165: Ms Kate  on  08/19  at  03:22 PM

That’s interesting to know, helen.  I’m absolutely sure that the population density and relative lack of available space contribute massively to the strict UK planning routine, so of course in places where the situation is similar (ie densely populated cities) in the US, then restrictions would be likewise.  Having said that, the reason it is a complicated and sometimes difficult procedure to getting planning permission is not because of resource and personnel starvation (as you seem to suggest is the case in NY), but more the number of things you have to demonstrate and the number of people you have to satisfy.

I guess what I was saying was that it seemed, from someone’s comment about zoning, that that is an important contributing factor to exurban/suburban blight, but it doesn’t seem to get much attention in discussions about it.  It also amuses me somewhat to think that the people here in the UK, who moan so terribly much about the restrictiveness of the UK planning regime, would be exactly the NIMBY’s who would be appalled at the potential results of a much laxer one.

Comment #166: Katherine  on  08/19  at  03:24 PM

“I guess what I was saying was that it seemed, from someone’s comment about zoning, that that is an important contributing factor to exurban/suburban blight, but it doesn’t seem to get much attention in discussions about it.”

Oh, it very much is a contributing factor.  While zoning is more lax on county governed land (I don’t know of any place where it’s non-existent) the counties still follow the cities lead* - and the cities generally don’t want apartments, small corner stores, mixed use, etc.

*until they are asked not to by developers.  But it’s not like you have a bunch of developers itching to do mixed use multi family housing rather than another huge tract of single family homes that they can sell off. The laxness comes in when they want to switch something zoned Housing to Commercial instead - or want a less exhaustive environmental impact report done.

Comment #167: jennygadget  on  08/19  at  04:27 PM

I hope you didn’t mean to imply that college educated people would not be living on a farm, that it is not possible to have been living on a farm while getting an education, etc, but that sure is how this came off.

I cut myself off from the PC to go be out in the real world and I just came back now to read through some comments.  No I don’t begrudge farmers, rural dwellers, or anybody of the like.  I was more so putting out the concept that they push this home-spun slack-jawed appeal when they are in fact educated journalists who mostly lived in suburbs.  They’re explicitly appealing to the suburban middle-class “country living” type who never lived on a farm either but simply wants to present that because in our “know nothing” society we hold self-teaching or the impression there of to be higher than book learning.  A Horatio Hornblower for the 21st century turned on his head.

Now, that being said, I think peopled missed the point of the article by delving into home styles and such.  It is less about what kind of home you live in and more about the level of affluence it breeds and the general actions one takes.  If the affluence level is high than most likely you will see your neighbors at various sports related events for the kids and other community activities because one has the money and time to expend.  But what one does in the voting booth or feel about the poorer citizens can be radically different from what one expresses on the sidelines.

Comment #168: Xeranar  on  08/19  at  05:27 PM

The geographic stronghold of the right is the suburbs, of course, and that’s a way of living that is more isolated from your neighbors than either bona fide small town life or city life.  You have a lot of conservative types who have big houses with no real front yard and certainly no porch to speak of.  Most of their journeys outside of their home don’t even involve breathing the air around their homes—-they hop into their car in the garage and pull out into the street, creating an actual physical boundary between them and their supposed communities at all times.  While this isn’t the cause of their isolation, it really tends to drive home how isolated they are.

It seems to me the isolation is self-chosen, since no adult is forced to live in the suburbs other than maybe for economic reasons*. So all that isn’t a cause of the isolation, but at the same time, it’s a feature, not a bug; I don’t envision any of these people suddenly lookng around and going “I’m in a hermetically sealed bubble, how did that happen?”

*Furthermore, I’m not sure being priced out of the urban life is as big an issue as it’s made out to be; I might be able to get more space, more house, for the same $XX00/month in New Jersey, but I don’t need more house; the three of us and all our stuff fit in this one just fine.

I thought Dr. Laura was a conservative Jew?
Comment 8—Ms Kate

The Jews you like are just Christians who go to church a day early.

(The Jews you don’t like, of course, are the ones who secretly control the banks, the newspapers, and the weather.)

In Pittsburgh the conservative talk show station (ironically owned by the most liberal TV station)
Comment 16—Xeranar

Ironic how? Money is money.

My basic problem with all of this is that humans are social animals and so there is a strong tendency to belong to a community regardless of the size of one’s home.  I just don’t see how it is possible to not have a tribe.
Comment 33—DBK

Antigone beat me to it, but also remember Putnam was writing before the Internet was what we know today.

Comment #169: Hershele Ostropoler  on  08/20  at  04:10 PM

For someone who’s motto is “No Whining”, she sure does whine a LOT.

It’s different when people are shouting YOU down, isn’t it DOCTOR Laura?

Comment #170: Kwillow  on  08/21  at  12:23 AM
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