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Next entry: Friday Change It Up Ten “Best Of The Aughts” Edition Previous entry: SOTU, after a good night’s rest

The religious right and the objectification of women

FeminismReligion

You know, I focus a lot on the most extreme examples of the misogyny on the religious right on this and other websites, in part because that sort of thing captures one’s attention—-the calls for forced childbirth, the occasional apologies of domestic violence and rape, the obsession with defining women more by the contents of their vagina and uterus than what’s in their hearts and minds, that sort of thing.  What it all goes back to is the concept of objectification, easily the most misunderstood concept in feminist thinking.  Feminists and even some modesty-obsessed anti-feminists alike tend to reduce the word to meaning that someone is being sexualized, though of course they have different approaches to how to handle that (most of the time).  I use it to mean that someone is being reduced to an object whose worth is measured solely in her usefulness to others.  This is not a small distinction.  For instance, anti-choicers will often put on faux concern for women and say that abortion and birth control “objectify” women, because presumably they involve admitting sex exists, and in their eyes, sex is automatically degrading to women, and certainly not something good girls choose for themselves.  But under the correct definition of “objectification”, abortion and birth control work against it, because they give a woman power to define her own life on her terms, and not be forced to live as someone else’s choice-free breeding machine.  Indeed, criminalizing abortion is a form of objectifying women, because it reduces women to these choiceless breeding machines.

But off that subject, I was impressed by a couple of blog posts that looked at some of the subtler ways women are objectified and treated like second class citizens within the religious right.  Evan Hurst wrote about the role of the long-suffering wife of the closet case, er, the ex-gay in the religious right.

Alan is probably moreso burdened because, as a gay man, he has remained married to a woman, thereby hijacking her life and her opportunity to be with a man who truly wants her, all of her.  But yet, instead of taking his inner conflict and at least keeping it to himself, Alan has chosen to use his perceived victimhood to victimize another.  The fact that his wife may be oblivious to this is irrelevant.  These men have simply taken the normal patriarchal control over women to a new, sick level, but it’s part of a theme that’s been running through religious ideology for centuries:  women are not viewed as whole, valid sexual beings on their own.  They are captives to an idea of “male headship,” and their needs — emotional, physical, mental, spiritual — are secondary to those of their husbands.  Put simply, these women are caught up in a lifestyle where their husbands are the final arbiters of their needs.

Gayle Haggard is on the road playing the martyred wife to a T, and this is exactly what she’s selling—-the idea that a good Christian wife should want nothing from her marriage but to be a brave servant, and that you’re somehow a better woman for sticking by a man who is committed not to you, but to the idea of marriage as a duty that he must fulfill to win man points.  (Mark Sanford played that card publicly on his wife, and she finally said no, winning her accolades from people who’ve probably grown too used to the idea of the abject political wife, and that women who reject that are the exceptions.)  Evan’s right; for all the attention paid to these men who are denying their sexual needs, there’s very little paid to the women who are denying their own.  I’m sure many of them would think it’s completely shameful and whorish for a woman to insist that her partner want her for real, instead of viewing her as an object to be manipulated to serve his needs.  The narrative of the Christian wife married to a closet case is this: Sure, what he needs me to do for him is different than what a straight man would want, but at the end of the day, it’s all the same thing, right?  Service is service. 

Of course, there are “ex-gays” that are female.  The few I’ve seen taking a public role are married to “ex-gay” men, though.


Which leads me to a blog I always read when I want a laugh: Stuff Christian Culture Likes.  Stephanie wrote about a relatively new trend, the “30 Day Sex Challenge”, where married couples in evangelical congregations swear to have sex for 30 days.  I heard about this before, and rolled my eyes, because it mostly seemed like these churches are trying to counter their justified reputation of being anti-sex by trying to sell married sex as the end-all, be-all.  But of course, in a classic religious right way, the attempt is self-contradicting, because if you have to march people to the bedroom, then it ends up implying sex is a big time chore.  But I hadn’t thought about the whole thing in the context of the hyper-macho, often misogynist fundie culture. Stephanie connected the dots.

With all of this propaganda the pitfalls aren’t discussed. The wife could feel objectified or emotionally neglected, but if she has been immersed in Christian culture she could dismiss these feelings as being selfish and sinful. And men in Christian culture sure as hell do not speak openly about being too tired for sex or feeling emotionally neglected. The machismo undercurrent in Christian culture is pretty effective in shaming men into acting stronger in the traditional sense, even though Christ modeled strength in the most untraditional sense.

A couple of people called her out for this quote earlier in the post: “The husbands are stoked. The wives act like they are too.”  They said she was implying women aren’t as sexual as men.  I don’t think that was her implication at all.  I think the above paragraph gets closer to her point, which is that “30 Day Sex Challenges” are rooted in the fundie idea that marriage is about women serving men, and therefore the only sexual problem they consider is when women are withholding, and men are feeling like they aren’t orgasming frequently enough.  Without coming out and saying it—-well, kind of—-they’re reinforcing the notion that sex is basically a duty performed by women to relieve men’s bodily needs.  A number of commenters pointed out that a period is likely to come around during that 30 days, and that many women don’t like to have intercourse during their period.  (Or men, either.)  But if you buy the unspoken framework this is being promoted in, then that probably doesn’t matter, because as long as he gets off, it counts. 

But wait!, I can hear protests.  A lot of women are horny and undersexed because their husbands have lower sex drives!  What about them?  Well, I have a good reason to think this 30 Day Sex Challenge thing has nothing whatsoever to do with that particular problem.  After all, the slogan is, “Every man’s fantasy: 30 days of sex! Every woman’s dream: 30 days of intimacy!”  But of course, it’s not the intimacy challenge.  The people promoting this aren’t telling husbands that they should spend 30 days attending to their wives non-sexual emotional and physical desires.  The slogan tacitly admits that this is a challenge aimed at making women do their job of balls-draining better.

I think Stephanie knows better than I do what’s going on, and her insight is interesting.  I’ll bet a lot of beds go cold in marriages built around the presumption that women are there to serve men, and that sex is mainly about relieving a man’s horniness so that he doesn’t break the rules against adultery and masturbation.  That viewpoint makes sex masturbation into women’s bodies—-the objectification that Stephanie talks about—-instead of a shared experience borne out of passion and desire.  Sex that started off hot could quickly turn into a chore for women who are basically being objectified in this way, and not attended to as people whose desires count.  It’s not that men and women have different needs, but in this culture, men are cast as the ones who have needs and women as the ones who meet them (and men’s needs that don’t fit the stereotype are also left unfulfilled, making this a miserable go-round). 

It’s this sort of thing that really shows how you can’t just airlift one issue out of many.  The forwarding of Sarah Palin by the religious right has been an argument, basically that you can hold women to certain misogynist standards without actually hurting them and holding them back.  But as these examples show, you can’t really put women in a servile position to their husbands and write it off as a cute religious practice that has no greater impact on women’s well-being in ways large and small.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 07:19 PM • (59) Comments

Yuck. Somehow they manage to makeanything remotely fun sound gross and boring. Which explains how a fundamentalist founded Domino’s. HIOOOO!

Comment #1: Ross Lincoln  on  01/28  at  07:39 PM

Stephanie wrote about a relatively new trend, the ”30 Day Sex Challenge”, where married couples in evangelical congregations swear to have sex for 30 days.

Having a bunch of sex? *sigh* That is a challenge, but if it’s what God wants, I’ll try.

Comment #2: Triplanetary  on  01/28  at  07:51 PM

I’m not good at speaking about facets of US culture, since I have not directly experienced them, but as for your statement in the last paragraph, that some people believe that women are not held back by being treated in a misogynistic fashion, I think this is quintessential patriarchy.  It comes down to the way that patriarchy estimates female nature as something fundamentally masochistic, so really you can’t hurt women at all, by definition, because however you use them is how they were meant to be used, and the worse you use them, the more you confirm their supposed ‘inner nature’—which is seen as actually being a good thing!

Patriarchal reasoning leads to objectification and the undermining of the relationship, but so long as patriarchal reasoning does not change, there is not going to be “anybody” present who will be in a position to notice this.

The typical hardline patriarch considers that badly treating women is a dare to himself, and a way of affirming otherwise repressed inner natures (his being sadistic, and hers being masochistic).  The more he can affirm in practice what he takes to be “inner truth” the more he feels like he is doing his Lord’s bidding.  (He has to have a mystical feeling of going against the grain, against what feels “easy”, and how one would like to treat one’s wife—that is, as a human being.)

Comment #3: scratchy888  on  01/28  at  07:52 PM

however you use them is how they were meant to be used, and the worse you use them, the more you confirm their supposed ‘inner nature’—which is seen as actually being a good thing!

Bingo.  The best explanation of this I’ve ever seen is what Twisty Faster calls this the “Accords Governing the Fair Use of Women” at I Blame The Patriarchy. 

It’s wrong-headed, of course, but I have come to the unfortunate conclusion that the front that the battle against misogyny and patriarchy needs to be fought is economic.

I call it the Golden Rule:  “She who has the gold, makes the rules.”  Meaning, if she out-earns her husband, or has the potential to do so, she doesn’t have to put up with as much patriarchal nonsense as a woman who is economically dependent on the husband’s income.

Comment #4: Mezosub  on  01/28  at  08:03 PM

I agree with this analysis.  There’s a marvelous scene in Big Love (season three) when the daughter goes off to interview a couple who are interested in adopting her baby.  This nice, educated, mormon couple turn out to be working hard on a marriage and forgiving each other their imperfections. What imperfections? She says she has “OCD” and is frequently depressed and judgemental. He says he wrestles with “SSA” or “Same Sex Attraction” and is “really gay” but knows that god is just testing him in this life and is bound to reward him, and her, in heaven if they can just stick it out and avoid the actual gay sex in this world.

I want to point out that the Christian Ethic pretends to privilige marriage as an institution over the happiness, pleasure, or fulfilment of both husband and wife. In reality, this is observed more in the breach. That is, when you look at actual Christian marriages in these hard core sects its women whose needs/wants and desires are suppressed in order to make the marriage work and when the marriage isn’t working for the man (she’s working outside the home, she’s having sex with outsiders, she’s abusive, she’s sick, she can’t have kids etc…) he can generally leave with little blowback or difficulty and even stay in the religious community while if she leaves her husband for identical reasons she’ll be cast out.  Nevertheless if you ask evangelical/fundamentalist christians whether they think both parties have to “sacrifice” for the marriage they will say yes, and they may even believe it.  Its part of the ideology and part of the theory of life that god is always testing you and that this life/marriage/situation can be both a test and a reward.  when things aren’t going well its a test. When things look like they are going well its a reward.

aimai

Comment #5: aimai  on  01/28  at  08:12 PM

challenge is generally a suspicious term. It usually involves eating 11 hot dogs in a minute, or losing an unhealthy amount of weight in a short period of time, or something.

Comment #6: t-ster  on  01/28  at  08:14 PM

About the homo wifes being victims, in the high profile cases, I don’t buy it. Not for one second.

These wifes profit from a system. They are selfish. They are evil. They don’t stay with their husbands because they’re supposed to be good Christian wifes (and somehow lefties should pity them). They stay because it brings them power and money.

They might incite women to be victim of their husband’s lack of vaginal enthusiasm (i just came up with that), but those who show the example know exactly what they are doing and are horrible people for it. After all, they did get married to horrible husbands.

Sorry for the rant, but I get reeeally tired how politician and pastor’s wife get pitied when they’re part of the problem and should get scorn for it, just like their husbands. It’s a tag-team.

Comment #7: sirkowski  on  01/28  at  08:14 PM

<i.Stephanie wrote about a relatively new trend, the ”30 Day Sex Challenge”, where married couples in evangelical congregations swear to have sex for 30 days.</i>

Why is this a chal - oh, right.  With each other.

Comment #8: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  01/28  at  08:15 PM

I don’t get the point of the 30 challenge at all. It’s possible that the lesson the religious folk are intended to take is that women exist to serve the needs of men.

But I don’t think that’s what would end up happening. For many couples, I don’t think either partner would have the persistent sexual appetite that would make them even WANT to have sex that often. So if you don’t feel like sex but have to do it anyway, it does turn into a domestic chore for both of them. What is the point of doing that? To make christians not like sex?

I want to know what happens at the end of the challenge. I would bet the participants don’t have any sex for two weeks after. Marriage building… yep.

Comment #9: encephalopath  on  01/28  at  08:15 PM

... Thirty days? I thought we were supposed to be ritually unclean for at least fourteen days out of the month.

Yes, yes, I know everyone’s wearing polyester blends and eating shrimp these days too.

I don’t know who Douglas Wilson is (apparently a respected voice in the biblical courtship movement, said the blog that linked me), but that link’s an essay on how to deal with your wife’s shortcomings Biblically. Examples given are “not doing the dishes promptly” and “failing to respond to sexual advances”. Not joking. Incidentally: the strategy for responding is the same in both cases, which is to pray and then tell her she has to.

Comment #10: purpleshoes  on  01/28  at  08:21 PM

p.s. that is an extreme example, but after a couple of months rubbernecking on the Quiverfull blogs (seriously, Monday’s inspirational pull on one of them was “Men express love physically. Even if they don’t show any other affection. Never ever reject your husband’s advances!” and Wednesday was “If you cry all the time, it’s because Jesus hates you for kissing that boy in high school.”) it’s tempting to just jump to the Biblical Patriarchy movement and point out how it’s ALL JUST SO INSANE.

Comment #11: purpleshoes  on  01/28  at  08:24 PM

“If you cry all the time, it’s because Jesus hates you for kissing that boy in high school.”

Are you sure that’s not satire? Poe’s law? Because if not, that’s terrifying.

Comment #12: Seebach  on  01/28  at  08:30 PM

“...essay on how to deal with your wife’s shortcomings Biblically. Examples given are “not doing the dishes promptly” and “failing to respond to sexual advances”.”

Yep… because the bible works just like automobile service diagnostics.

Symptoms: Fails to respond to sexual advances
Frequency: Intermittent
Severity: Moderate
Work Arounds: Not Available

See page 2-15 for repair instructions

Comment #13: encephalopath  on  01/28  at  08:33 PM

Women as glue

Comment #14: scratchy888  on  01/28  at  08:39 PM

Is there a prize offered for successfully completing the challenge? Because Ms. F just told me if it was worth more than a car payment she’d be willing to go for it.

Comment #15: felagund  on  01/28  at  08:45 PM

Am going to have to chime in with sirkowski (#7) after seeing Haggard’s wife on Oprah. The woman was clearly there to sell her book. She claims she stayed with him because she is so in love with him but that’s not what came across. What came across is her willingness to play along with what is expected of her and the fact that she misses all the money that used to roll in from his former job. Now they go out shilling (and charging thousands per appearance) their bullshit public relationship to churches all over the country. If there were no money, no clinging desperately to religious dogma and no appearances on Oprah, I don’t think she would stay married to a gay man.

Comment #16: DC Fem  on  01/28  at  08:57 PM

Seebach, I am indulging in hyperbolae because I found the real post so effing terrifying. Also, I exaggerated the posting schedule of the blogger.

Like I said, I have to quit reading these things, it’s terrible for my brain, but somehow I keep clicking.

Comment #17: purpleshoes  on  01/28  at  09:00 PM

Purpleshoes—the Douglas Williams post is terrifying.  WTF!  If there were comments over there, which there are not, I would have written the following:

“Speaking as someone who was raised Christian, after reading this post, I am glad I married an atheist.  He sees me as a person, not something one step up from a car.  Also, to use LOLcat speak, if a woman (or a man) rejects their partner’s advances, one of two things is probably true: (1) the rejecting partner has a low sex drive, either always or at that moment, or (2) SEXYTIHM.  UR DOIN IT WRONG.

Comment #18: Ismone  on  01/28  at  09:55 PM

Whoa, purpleshoes. That post is terrifying. And its theologically idiotic. I just finished reading the new testament, it could be clearer that all sins are forgiven. So even if we buy into this idea that sex before marriage is sinful its all forgiven through jesus. No scars, no nothing. So to imply that there ARE scars is fundamentally non-christian slut-shaming disguised as “christianity”.  (not to say that Paul wasn’t a misogynist, but that is neither here nor there)

And further, the gospels and the Pauline books make it very clear that marriage is not even desirable. Paul was clear that the ideal state was celibacy, and that marriage was for people that just felt that they had to have sex. Marriage is not fetishized in the new testament, and the idea that intimacy is something that women owe to there husbands has no support in the bible at all.

Comment #19: stephen  on  01/28  at  09:57 PM

OMG, something more from that collection of articles he posts on, this one written by a woman and terrifying and sad and scary:

“1. Do you respect him? Scripture assigns wives two primary responsibilities: respect and submission (Ephesians 5:22-24, 33; Colossians 3:18). These duties are obviously linked, for a woman who respects her husband will find submission her delight and her protection. Where there is lack of respect, submission becomes a pleasureless duty fraught with turmoil, but required all the same. First, find out what respect is and what it looks like. Do you admire and look up to him? Do you trust him to make godly decisions that you can submit to? Is he in submission to the Word of God? Does he model godly submission to those in authority over him? Does he have the kind of character that will not compromise or cave in under pressure? In short, what kind of Christian is he? Do you esteem him more than anyone else you know? Will you be able to honor and defer to him for life? Or are there areas you are concerned about and hope that perhaps you can fix later? Don’t marry a man as a project; don’t assume you can change him once you’re married. Can he lead you, or are you leading him in taking the leadership? If you are in the least doubt about these things, stop right here and wait for someone else.”

Ack!  This is scary, scary, scary.

Comment #20: Ismone  on  01/28  at  10:02 PM

First of all I love that blog, I had never heard of it.  Pretty funny.

I can’t get my mind around having sex because someone told me to.  I have always rebelled against anything anyone told me to do.  Some priest or minister or whatever telling me to have sex with my husband for 30 days, would be a great way to insure I have zero sex with him over that 30 days.  (assuming said husband agreed with the priest that it was a super idea).

Comment #21: JennyLI  on  01/28  at  10:03 PM

While Sirkowski is a little blunt, the point is fair.  A new marriage at age 20 is very different from a marriage when the partners are 50.

The whole “30 day challenge,” renewal of vows, etc, and other rubbish promoted by churches seems little more than an attempt to infantalize and force conformance on the flock.

Most of the married couples I know seem pretty happy, but they always consist of pretty self-actualized people who don’t define themselves in terms of marriage roles, and definitely don’t listen to priests.

Comment #22: gorobei  on  01/28  at  10:16 PM

The 30 day challenge sounds like an open invitation to spousal rape to me.

Comment #23: Kathy  on  01/28  at  10:33 PM

Sirkowski and DC Fem:

I think you’re right, on one level.  The public wives of “ex-gay” men often DO profit alongside their husbands, and in Gayle Haggard’s case, handily.

BUT

The earlier co-opting of their spirits in service of that ideology sort of has to already be there, i.e. they already have to be willing to believe the shit that the Religious Right has taught them, already respecting those men as their elders, really, in order to react that way.

To provide a counter example, last year, the Christian singer Ray Boltz came out of the closet after years of hiding.  He didn’t do the ex-gay thing.  He came out.  Unfortunately, and sadly, he had been married for a long time to a lovely woman, and it, obviously, hurt her very badly.  But Carol was able to, I think partially because of the real support she got from not only the gay community but from an open-minded sector of the Christian community, really parlay that into being an inspiring voice for honesty and integrity.  But because the wives of these “ex-gay” men are still having their heads held under the water of the baptismal font, brainwashed into believing that a man can change his sexuality, they have no impetus to see that things could be different, so they’re held in the same patriarchal system.

As I said, I grant that Gayle Haggard is making a lot of money because of this, but I would suggest that the fact that she’s being opportunistic is separate from the circumstances that led to her being in that situation.

(I think I still come up as Break the Terror here, but this is Evan Hurst, the writer of the first piece…Amanda, is there a way to change my username now that I’m writing under my name?)

Comment #24: Evan Hurst  on  01/28  at  11:05 PM

@Ismone, I agree with one part of that you quoted: don’t marry a man planning to change him.

The 30 Day Sex challenge?  A better challenge would be “Talk to your spouse for 30 minutes every day for 30 days. Have sex as often as it pleases you.” I bet folks would have more sex that way, because nothing is more of a turn on than a partner who makes you laugh.

Comment #25: Angelia Sparrow  on  01/28  at  11:25 PM

Another sick thing about something like the 30-day challenge in a patriarchal context is that it’s lose-lose for the women. If they don’t feel like it one day, no, not even after a warm bath and flowers and a bottle of wine, they’re participating in their own rape. If their husband doesn’t feel like it one day, it’s because they’re unattractive, unskilled shrews. Or perhaps because they’re deliberately driving him away.

And absolutely right on the objectification. The whole high-pressure-christianity thing is in a lot of ways about objectifying both men and women, because they’re not on this earth to have lives, they’re here to serve their deity. (I still remember recoiling in horror at the wedding of a grade-school acquaintance, then a divinity student, when the priest started in about how this marriage wasn’t really about the two people in front of him at all, but rather about how they could serve as a metaphor for the Church as Bride of Christ. words fail.)

Comment #26: paul  on  01/28  at  11:26 PM

“The 30 day challenge sounds like an open invitation to spousal rape to me.
Comment #23: Kathy “

This. How likely is it that enthusiastic consent will exist every single day? I expect coercion of the guilt-trip kind to be used, at the very least. And if it gets ugly, how much support will the woman have from her friends to deal with it?

Comment #27: Samantha Vimes  on  01/28  at  11:39 PM

“1. Do you respect him? Scripture assigns wives two primary responsibilities: respect and submission (Ephesians 5:22-24, 33; Colossians 3:18). These duties are obviously linked, for a woman who respects her husband will find submission her delight and her protection. Where there is lack of respect, submission becomes a pleasureless duty fraught with turmoil, but required all the same. [blah blah blah]

This sort of thing is why I say that it’s a kink. They just don’t acknowledge that it’s a kink or that other people don’t share their kink.

Comment #28: Rebecca  on  01/28  at  11:41 PM

I agree Rebecca.  But it is mandatory kink, which makes it much worse, and it is mandatory for the lower status partner.  (Not that you were saying it wasn’t, just expanding for the naive reader.)

Comment #29: Ismone  on  01/28  at  11:46 PM

I have no doubt that Gayle Haggard is making money, but she is selling the idea of complete submission to women who get nothing out of it.

Comment #30: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/29  at  12:20 AM

Which isn’t to say that I think women are weak.  They’re just oppressed.  Men would behave the same under the same kind of pressures.  The system in this case objectifies women.  That Gayle Haggard submits to objectification for financial gain is interesting, but doesn’t change the fundamental problem.  There’s a lot of focus on porn actresses, but I’d say a porn actress doesn’t really promote objectification in near the same way—-on the contrary, a lot of women in porn make a point of saying, “This is contained in the fantasy, this is not who I am.”  Men may not treat them that way, but it seems most women I’ve ever met in sex work, whether politicized or not, saw it that way.

For Christian shills, however, the objectification is supposed to define your being.

Comment #31: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/29  at  12:23 AM

I just watched the interview with the Haggards, which was overall WEIRD, and I’m sure I’ll have more about it to say tomorrow, but one thing I noticed is that Gayle has this constant tic where, when she was answering questions, or just talking in general, she would answer not to Larry, but looking at Ted, and not in a lovey-dovey way, but it was more of what I was talking about—it’s almost like she’s running her words through his silent filter.

Money quote of the night, though, was from Ted:  “It was so weird, Larry, because I was SO heterosexual…”

I woke up my roommate laughing.

Comment #32: Evan Hurst  on  01/29  at  12:29 AM

“Every man’s fantasy: 30 days of sex! Every woman’s dream: 30 days of intimacy!”

Translation:  Men pretend to love the bag of meat around the vagina in order to get to the vagina.

Comment #33: DonnaDiva  on  01/29  at  01:34 AM

to purpleshoes@ #17 That link—-GAAAACK—I do NOT forgive you for it.

Comment #34: phylosopher  on  01/29  at  01:54 AM

I haven’t followed that Haggard thing, so no gaydar checks available, but could the whole thing be a plot by the two of them - restart flagging career, up the bank account, whatever? As in either he was always gay and she always covered and coming out now makes financial sense, or, he really isn’t gay and is just playing it for the $$?

Comment #35: phylosopher  on  01/29  at  02:01 AM

Phylosopher @34: No pity for you.  Just because someone posts a link doesn’t oblige you to get out of the boat, especially if they provide a “shorter”.

Comment #36: Dr. Psycho  on  01/29  at  04:39 AM

“how a fundamentalist founded Domino’s.”

Monaghan is not a fundamentalist protestant, but an opus dei catholic.  Like a member of the Taliban, he ends up in the same place as a protestant fundie on a lot of social issues—but he gets there from a rather different place, and his theological differences with the protestant fundies may lead him to a different result on a few issues.  For example, you’re not likely to hear an opus dei catholic blame the Haitian earthquake on Satan-worship, whereas for a protestant fundie lke Robertson, Haiti’s catholicism is part of the whole Satan-worship problem . . .

[Discussing wingnut taxonomy always makes me feel like a herpetologist]

Comment #37: rea  on  01/29  at  09:38 AM

phyl, I’m afraid that Ted Haggard sets off even the rustiest gaydar.

Comment #38: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/29  at  10:17 AM

Also, he was outed by a male prostitute who worked for him, and who apparently did crystal meth with him.  He absolutely did not want to be outed.

Comment #39: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/29  at  10:18 AM

I don’t think they mean intimacy in any sort of getting closer in a more meaningful relationship kind of way.  It’s a euphemism for sex, because women are too delicate to have sex, they are intimate with men.  Growing isn’t something encouraged from a fundy perspective, but using words in a way that deliberately implies more than what they really offer is definitely a fundy thing.

I think it is awful for both genders.  Yes- worse for the women, because anything filtered through a fundy mind is worse for women, but it’s awful for both.  Someone not part of the relationship but in a position of power has set an arbitrary standard, told couples it’s good based on nothing more than personal prejudice, dared the couple to commit to this arbitrary standard, and we all know if it doesn’t work out, they will be made to feel like failures.  Nice.  It’s pretty much exactly how everything fundy works, so I suppose anyone who is part of those churches is used to and accepting of that MO.  Possibly never giving it a second thought.  Or even a first.

Comment #40: drachonfire  on  01/29  at  11:06 AM

Does he model godly submission to those in authority over him?

Opiate of the people indeed.

Comment #41: Jerry Vinokurov  on  01/29  at  11:14 AM

Today’s good news: a Kansas judge decided that murdering an abortion doctor is, in fact, murder.  The fact that he had to think about it so long is troubling, but at least he reached the right result.

Comment #42: BABH  on  01/29  at  12:35 PM

There is no way that this can be constructed as a “both ways” thing.

If a man feels that he isn’t getting enough sex out of the marriage, he can drag his wife off to this 30 days thing and bully her into putting out for a month straight. He gets the full weight of the church behind him.

If a woman feels that she isn’t getting enough sex out of the marriage, she’s a nymphomaniac slut who is nagging her husband and not submitting properly to his wishes to be left alone.

Comment #43: Mighty Ponygirl  on  01/29  at  12:44 PM

purpleshoes @ 10, that link disturbed shit out of me. The condescension, treating your wife like a child, “training” her in her “duties,” and if she refuses, you bring in the church elders to force her.  She’s not a partner.  She’s a subordinate who not only has to work for you—she has to love you as her master.  She has to let go of her self and be nothing but wholly obedient to you, and happy about it. Really, it’s treating her as less than a child.  That’s the way you treat a dog.

That’s it, that’s what disturbs me. This is all the same as how you train a dog. If your dog doesn’t act right, it’s not the dog’s fault, it’s your fault for not training it properly. And your goal is to train a dog that will obey you unquestioningly and give you affection whenever you want it. This works for dogs because they’re dogs.  But you can’t treat people like that.

It was the same as when I spent a whole day reading the stories at No Longer Qivering [yes, Qivering, not Quivering].  I was so freaked out and disturbed that I needed to talk to my fiancé about it for an hour afterwards.

Comment #44: snowmentality  on  01/29  at  01:05 PM

I don’t think they mean intimacy in any sort of getting closer in a more meaningful relationship kind of way.  It’s a euphemism for sex, because women are too delicate to have sex, they are intimate with men.

Disagree; it’s the stereotype that men want sex and women want touchy-feely emotional things.

Comment #45: Rebecca  on  01/29  at  01:47 PM

Triplanetary (2):

Having a bunch of sex? *sigh* That is a challenge, but if it’s what God wants, I’ll try.

Heh. You say that, but are you really more horny than tired for 30 days in a block very often? Starting around day 11 or so I might be willing to skip it.

stephen (19):

Paul was clear that the ideal state was celibacy, and that marriage was for people that just felt that they had to have sex. Marriage is not fetishized in the new testament, and the idea that intimacy is something that women owe to their husbands has no support in the bible at all.

Yes, well, you’re a feminist, and thereore believe women are people. I mean, consider the Epistles as being addressed to men only (and before the naturally naturally chaste woman was invented in the 19th century). Looked at that way, the ideal is that men will be celibate, but if a man is so week and effeminate and bestial that he has to have sex, he should marry a woman. So in that reading, this vessel of lust is only in the picture because a man wants sex. So of course it’s a wife’s duty to have sex with her husband; that’s why he married in the first place.

Evan (32):

Money quote of the night, though, was from Ted:  “It was so weird, Larry, because I was SO heterosexual…”

Ted Haggard is completely heterosexual.

Comment #46: Hershele Ostropoler  on  01/29  at  02:38 PM

Rebecca-  I’m not disagreeing that they deliberately chose the word because it had those connotations, and that they want all the women to view it as a month of becoming closer to their spouse.  But I don’t believe in any way that they would ever expect husbands to connect with their wives more on those 30 nights than they do on any other night.

It’s a deliberate choice of the word, and one that lets them work both sides of the meaning while still offering nothing more than 30 days worth of sex.  The idea that intimacy (connection) will be increased for the women in those 30 days is simply a selling point in the advertising, not an intended outcome.

Comment #47: drachonfire  on  01/29  at  02:57 PM

“The 30 day challenge sounds like an open invitation to spousal rape to me. “

Oh no, not rape!  Coercion into performing their duty to Big Bro- uh, God - sure, but not RAPE!  That only happens to unmarried sluts when non-white men see them at night!  A man can’t rape what he owns!

Comment #48: Gypsy Lee  on  01/29  at  03:09 PM

a Kansas judge decided that murdering an abortion doctor is, in fact, murder.  The fact that he had to think about it so long is troubling

The jury only deliberated for thirty-seven minutes, which doesn’t seem too bad to me.

There’s something here, I think, for pretty much any closeted married guy, whether he’s closeted because his religion says he has to be or for some other reason.

Comment #49: Aaron  on  01/29  at  03:48 PM

Um, I treat my dog better than what Wilson is babbling about at his site.  In fact, I treat the damn cat better and I can’t stand it.

Comment #50: Pockysmama  on  01/29  at  03:59 PM

I’m satisfied with Roeder’s conviction, and glad that he won’t be executed to become even more of a martyr for the unhinged anti-choice nuts.

On topic, I’m also going to take a guess that churches doing this 30 days of sex thing aren’t big “believers” in contraception, meaning that in addition to making sex another chore, the implicit approval of spousal rape, etc., it also means that a good number of women are going to wind up pregnant as a result.  Quite the membership drive.

Comment #51: Karinna A.  on  01/29  at  04:33 PM

Wilson’s unhinged, obviously.

If he’s in a relationship at all, I’m quite certain it’s with someone who tolerates his nonsense only because she has no other options.

If he were to actually come across an attractive, strong-willed woman with her own money and her own career, he’d be so intimidated his dick would shrivel and fall off. 

Of course, he’d never admit that, so he’d pre-emptively call her an ugly hairy-legged lesbian before anyone could notice his peeing himself in her presence. 

The Bush Doctrine of Interpersonal Relations, if you will.

Comment #52: Mezosub  on  01/29  at  04:37 PM

Holy shit, purpleshoes! I’m in need of some brain bleach after reading that blog.

But wait, why is ALWAYS the woman’s responsibility to serve her man in his “language”, unquestioningly and without ever, ever, ever feeling taken for granted, AND ALSO be unilaterally grateful when he deigns to show her that he doesn’t think of her as just a meatbag to masturbate into, AND bear all the baggage if she showed any man anything in “his language” prior to her God-approval at the altar? I mean, there’s so much fucking wrong with that woman’s post I don’t even know where the wrong finishes. If it’s not a way to ice the road to madness I don’t know what it is.

She contradicts herself so much it’s amazing. One minute she’s all (to paraphrase): “Men express their love through sex. They don’t understand intimacy, emotions or affection, and they certainly don’t understand us little women.” Then, she says: “But when they volunteer to get down off their high manly horses and show us attention, intimacy and affection we should be doubly grateful for this honor.” Well, do they or don’t they understand, lady? It can’t be both, which, if we take for granted her assertion that all men are cold, emotionless cyclons who keep their brains in their pants, it rather suggests to me that they do understand women - of her mindset, at least. If that’s the case, sorry love, you married a manipulative bastard.

What is love when it’s all about kissing someone’s ass and hoping they don’t shit on your face too much? Christ on a cracker, fundies depress me.

Comment #53: Princess Rot  on  01/29  at  05:55 PM

Rebecca- I’m not disagreeing that they deliberately chose the word because it had those connotations, and that they want all the women to view it as a month of becoming closer to their spouse.  But I don’t believe in any way that they would ever expect husbands to connect with their wives more on those 30 nights than they do on any other night.

It’s a deliberate choice of the word, and one that lets them work both sides of the meaning while still offering nothing more than 30 days worth of sex.  The idea that intimacy (connection) will be increased for the women in those 30 days is simply a selling point in the advertising, not an intended outcome.

I agree with that - that it’s a marketing thing. I’d thought you meant that it was a “ladylike” way of saying sex.

Comment #54: Rebecca  on  01/29  at  08:56 PM

Snowmentality at 44:
“She’s not a partner.  She’s a subordinate who not only has to work for you—she has to love you as her master.”

Collosians 3:18-24
Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.
Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord.
Fathers, do not embitter your children, or they will become discouraged.
Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. 
Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving.

Hey, just quoting, not condoning, ok?
I was pointed out to this passage in a thread called “Women owe a debt of gratitude to men for allowing us human rights”. I pointed out that men didn’t allow anything, but women fought (and fight) hard for each inch of progress, and this guy said “By this logic, shouldn’t women be grateful in general when the men in their society do not force them to fight for their rights and comforts?(...)Also, I think that gratitude should be mutual from men to good natured, supportive, respectful, loving women.”
I replied with “Whenever I’ve seen men refering to women as ‘good natured’, they meant they were not like those other bitches who just won’t shut up and insist in being treated like people, damn them.” And he quoted that part above, and a proverb against quarrelsome wives. I hadn’t seen when he had already said before that being oppressed was part of the curse of Eve. And they were totally shocked! that I dared insinuate that their church had a few misogynist principles.

Comment #55: colorlessblue  on  01/29  at  09:44 PM

I agree with the definition of intimacy that has been discussed here, but I think it’s often also used as a direct euphemism for sex, or other physical acts that are frowned upon. Like in one of purpleshoes’ links, where the women on the comments are all regretting “being intimate” before marriage.

Comment #56: colorlessblue  on  01/29  at  09:48 PM

I’m all for the for the 30 days of sex thing as long as sex is not defined solely as PIV until the guy gets off. Could be a great way to learn about each other:

“You really humped the edge of the matress when you were ten thinking of Scott Baio? Show me how you did that. Can I put my hand under you to help?”

“I’m really tired tonight. You know you excite me but I’d like to just lick your clit while we play with that thick dildo in your pussy.

“She understood I have a dufficult night shift ahead of me. That quick BJ sure put me in a better mood for inventory night.”

That’s what a real 30 days of sex might look like.

Comment #57: Bacopa  on  01/30  at  02:09 AM

Princess Rot et al, I do wish you happy brain-bleaching. Quiverfull blogs are such fish in a barrel, but I think it’s a good example of how certain contemporary beliefs about sex (that men like it more than women, for example, which is not held to be true in all eras and places) can combine with some pretty extreme brands of Christian Dominionist thinking and produce WTF-ery to end all WTF-ery. That Cedar Generation post has always particularly gotten to me because, of course, they are Quiverfull, so very few of the women reading in agreement are using birth control at all. Not to speak for them, but my god, after baby number eight or nine, is it any wonder that you’re “dreading sexual relations”? Especially given that the holy grail for many of these people is natural childbirth. Not to say a word against natural childbirth, but that’s a lot of pain to go through ten or twelve times in your life.

Karinna, one comforting thing about reading Quiverfull blogs is what extremes members of that movement often have to go to - often leaving all the organized Christian churches in their area and worshipping in a basement somewhere - to avoid helpful fellow Evangelicals who think they’re insane and keep dropping little hints about how birth control just seems like good stewardship. It’s nice to know that a whole lot of people have a natural stopping point that falls way short of ten unmedicated births followed by homeschooling, no matter how much we might disagree on other topics.

Comment #58: purpleshoes  on  01/31  at  12:35 AM

This reminds me of the big grins, smiles and smirks I use to see on the faces of the evangelicals when we first went into Kuwait, especially when these people saw the Burkas that some of the women were wearing.

Reading this article is like trying to drink Drano and say its good for you, other then playing the empty headed bimbo that flats back her way through her dismal life she runs into a wall and calls it mind expanding, yeah right she doesn’t have a clue.

I am willing to bet you take this fool put her in a choker collar, walk ten steps behind and when in public wear a Burka she would gladly do it, she not a christian she is a SLAVE looking for a dominator or a dominatrix.

Unlike the animal world selective breeding is controlled by the food source plenty of food plenty of young animals limited food limited animal births, these NIT WITS on the right being given the right to choose CHOOSE Ignorance and breed like wild animals claiming it is inspired by their fictitious god and book of Fairy Tales.

I like the idea that was being floated in Europe last year, make marriage or what ever you want to call this of pay for sex only 20 years then if the partners want to seek new partners that would be great , it helps the christian say see we now have marriage I think/ and the promiscuous0us person to have all kinds of fun.

In general if a christian says it you know it is empty headed and self serving, it is about total surrender of YOUR freewill and Thought to their imaginary god and embraced with the logic from their book of Fairy Tales.

Please remember these clowns have thought deeply about this and their god told it to them (amazing how their god only talks to them huh!) with much condemnation fear hatred misinterpretation and total complete surrender of your will to them doesn’t our little SLAVE sound like she fits the pattern.

Comment #59: ProudLiberal1947  on  01/31  at  02:29 PM
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