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Next entry: And that’s a wrap, folks Previous entry: A question and two videos

The Shawshank Principle and the GOP nomination

Via Lawyers, Guns and Money, I see that Roger Ebert has tackled the question of why "The Shawshank Redemption" has the highest ratings of any movie on IMDB.  Ebert makes somes interesting points about the appeal of "Shawshank", but in this enthusiasm for talking about what makes the movie so good, he misses talking about what it has that would make it rise above the ranks of other movies that have similar qualities. I would argue there's two reasons that "Shawshank" rises above all others:

1) It's got no female characters.

2) Mediocrity rules.

I actually feel bad dinging the movie for these, because in a way, it's unfair.  "Shawshank" isn't a mediocre movie---the acting, the script, the directing are all pretty damn good.  But it still rises to the top for the same reason that mediocrity rules.  It plays it safe.  And not having female characters in it is one of the most important ways it plays it safe.

The idea behind "mediocrity rules" is that true greatness always runs the risk of offense, or at least turning people off.  For one thing, greatness is innovative, which means that you lose huge portions of the audience that wants a warm bath of not being challenged at all.  Think of the film that deserved the Oscar that year, but lost out (along with "Shawshank") to "Forrest Gump"---"Pulp Fiction".  Nowadays I don't think "Pulp Fiction" perturbs too many people, but at the time the film was so shockingly different that it didn't have a chance in hell.  In fact, Tarantino is still doing one movie after another that offends the typical sensibilities of the mainstream American audience (including, which I'll get to in a minute, the shut-up-ladies phenomenon), and still not getting loaded down with Oscars, in a fashion that will be seen in the future as a scandalous oversight.  "Pulp Fiction" was rock and roll, and "Forrest Gump" was Michael Bolton.  "Shawshank" was a Frank Sinatra album---solid, classic even, but not great.

"Shawshank" doesn't have anything in it that's going to chase people out the door.  It appeals to the smart and the stupid alike, the liberal and the conservative.  Everyone can get behind the story of a man redeeming himself after the system grinds him down unfairly.  It's set in the past and outside of the world, minimizing the chance of referring to anything that triggers people's distaste.  There's nothing polarizing about it.  If it was a blog comment, it would get a lot of upvotes, but no one would bother to downvote it.  Functionally, this is what happened to it on IMDB.

It also benefits from everyone having seen it.  And the reason is that it, like "Back to the Future", is on cable non-stop.  I'd bet it's playing on a channel somewhere right now.  But the reason that it is has everything to do with these principles.  It seems like the safe movie you can play on cable non-stop.  Everyone likes it and no one hates it.

I would argue that its lack of any real female characters contributes to the feeling that it's safe.  As much as it pains me to say so, I think that female characters are polarizing.  Hollywood's preference is to have female characters with no internal lives, no physical flaws, and no concerns outside of man-pleasing, because they believe (with some reason) that large chunks of the audience find anything else from female characters threatening.  But you also have a large part of the audience---and a growing one---that's frustrated with the lack of understanding that women are people in Hollywood films, and won't like movies that portray women as cardboard characters or dumb bunnies.  "Shawshank" sidesteps the problem entirely by simply not having female characters, outside of a wife character who I don't even recall having any lines before she's killed. 

Women are polarizing figures in our society in general, because of the eternal rule of the patriarchy that a woman is never doing anything right.  Everyone is eager to tear at women and judge women and examine women closely for perceived slights against what they personally believe a woman should be like. There's also the feminist urge to examine women closely to see if they're rising above the gender trap. Simply by being Other, women capture attention and controversy.  There's a reason that Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin both are more polarizing figures than their male counterparts.  Putting a woman onscreen causes the audience to start dividing against itself.  But "Shawshank" is a bunch of dudes.  This contributes to the non-challenging aspect of it.  Even the rape somehow gets removed from the toxic gender norms that create rape (and therefore allow men to become victims) by the magic lady erasure of the movie.

I make it sound like I don't like "Shawshank", but I actually do.  It's solid.  It's a better quality than most movies that use these strategies to be non-controversial, which is why I think it rises above those movies in the rankings.  But it also falls short of being as good as movies that choose one section of their audience over another.  Tarantino, as I mentioned previously, has moved into giving the finger to people who are alienated by having to remember that women are people when they're watching movies.  His best characters have been women since "Pulp Fiction" gave him license to do whatever he wants.  (And arguably, the most fun character in "Pulp Fiction" is Mrs. Wallace.)  This, I suspect, contributes to the polarizing nature of his work.

Maybe I should call it the "Shawshank principle" instead of, as I usually do, "mediocrity rules", in order to encompass actual works of quality that still avoid giving any kind of offense and therefore rise to the top by default. 

The Shawshank principle, by the way, is why I'm convinced that Tim Pawlenty is going to win the Republican nomination.  People continue to make the mistake of looking at popularity contests as a matter of who has the most positive qualities that draw people to you.  Instead, you should look to see if someone has a polarizing quality that's going to cause them to get some downvotes, in the internet parlance.  This goes doubly so for Republicans, because the whole point of being conservative is being reactionary, rejecting out of hand things that challenge or perturb you.  Liberals can often get swept up into enthusiasm for a candidate instead of simply picking one by process of elimination, which is in part how Obama won. 

Almost every candidate in the Republican field has something about them that a portion of Republican voters really dislike.  Romney will get killed on the Mormon thing---the evangelicals just aren't ready yet.  Haley Barbour is out because the racism thing is too toxic.  (This is a really good sign of progress in our country, by the way.)  Sarah Palin is not only out, but I think women in general are a failed experiment for Republicans, and the glass ceiling is thicker than ever for them.  Huckabee turns off the large portion of Republican voters who aren't evangelical Christians.  (Believe me, the contempt that more secular conservatives have for their Bible-thumping comrades is something you don't want to ignore.)  Trump is just kidding, but even if he wasn't, he's never going to get the Christian vote ever.  Pawlenty has nothing overtly offensive about him. The Christian right doesn't suspect he's a secret liberal or that he's not a real Christian, and the more secular right doesn't think he's a wild-eyed Bible thumper.  He wins by default. 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 09:03 AM • (136) Comments

Amanda, this is one of the smartest movie review—or rather review of reader response to a movie—that I’ve ever seen and I really like your Pawlenty point too.

I’d like to add something to your basic point. 

The movie is set in a timeless past and although its not quite shot in black and white it has a black and white feel to it, a grey tone to it, which also makes it read more like an old movie, further removed from us in time.

The movie elides or overcomes racial issues *for the viewer* by having the hero befriend a black character and by having the black character be both friendly, unalarming, and old.  In fact he ages throughout the movie and becomes even less threatening when he comes out. Compare that to American Me or any other version of non whiteness in prison.

The movie gives you someone to root for who remains uncorrupted by a corrupt system.  To the extent that you identify with the lead you flatter yourself that you, too, could survive and remain uncorrupted.

The movie exalts the idea of the little guy, the hard worker who keeps his head down. Its a walter mittyesque fantasy of revenge where the hero never gets his hands dirty.

It hews to a very clear set of images and metaphors—entombment, redemption, rebirth.

Lastly, women in the audience are used to identifying with and supporting male actors in their journeys seeing themselves either as supporters/wives/helpmeets, mothers, or daughters.  Removing the actual wife from the movie removes *competition* for that role—and it also removes potentially divisive alternate views of the hero and what he needs to do to get right with the world.

I’d point out he also doesn’t have children so that you don’t have to concern yourself with his relationship to his children as a father for all those years.

aimai

Comment #1: aimai  on  04/26  at  10:19 AM

This may well explain why there are so many prison movies.

So the logical choice for GOP candidate under the Shawshank Principle is Rudy Giuliani.

Also want to point out that the original Stephen King novella was entitled “Rita Hayworth and the Shawshank Redemption”. Even the mention of the woman on the poster is erased, leaving only the hole she is hiding.

Comment #2: Yamara  on  04/26  at  10:43 AM

“Lawrence of Arabia” has no female characters.
“Patton” has no female characters except the British ladies in one brief scene.

Comment #3: Peeperino1948  on  04/26  at  10:45 AM

The last polling numbers I saw for the GOP candidates against Obama had (IIRC) Romney being the only one even slightly competitive. He’s polarizing to the fringe right for at least two reasons (he told birthers that they’re nuts, and he’s not Christian like them) so if teapartiers are the deciding faction within GOP primaries, he’d lose big.
I think a Pawlenty nom is in no way a sealed deal but if the GOP nom process is similar to that in 2008 (elect the most boring guy) then he wins and then has to ratchet up the crazy between the nomination and election day in order to convince the Bush lovers that he’s as crazy as Bush.

Comment #4: artiofab  on  04/26  at  10:46 AM

The most boring guy has won the Republican nomination since 1988.  Reagan was also a Shawshank pick—-Bush was considered a liberal by the Christian right in 1980.

Comment #5: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/26  at  10:52 AM

Speaking of GOP candidates, in a 2005 article about Trump that takes 7 pages to talk about how much money he has and how much he claims to have, the author talks to some people who say Trump is not nearly as rich as he says he is.  Trump’s reply:

“You can go ahead and speak to guys who have 400-pound wives at home who are jealous of me, but the guys who really know me know I’m a great builder.”

Nice.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/23/business/yourmoney/23trump.html?pagewanted=4&_r=1

Comment #6: Nutella  on  04/26  at  10:54 AM

It doesn’t sound like you guys have actually read the novella.  There were no female characters in it either.  Rita Hayworth hardly counts as a character.  So I think these points are misdirected.  Blame Stephen King for those issues, but Frank Darabont did an excellent job of adapting the novella for a screenplay.  Also, if you read the Stephen King version you realize that the movie version is actually a little more provocative in certain respects.  For instance, they don’t kill the young inmate Tommy in the novel.  Also, Red is not an African American, which I think is one of the particularly outstanding parts of the film, which is the idea that in this prison, these few inmates see each other for their human qualities and are not biased by skin color, etc.  And Pulp Fiction would be great if it weren’t for Tarantino’s exceptionally horrifying dialogue.

Comment #7: riffraff2001  on  04/26  at  10:57 AM

I can’t agree with this at all.  You are basically saying that a movie is bad/boring/banal/bourgeois (all the “B"s)  because it has no female characters.  I think it is important for there to be good roles for women out there, but this can’t be the single determining factor for a movie.  Would this mean The Old Man and the Sea is a mediocre book?  Or that Waiting for Godot is a mediocre play? 

I actually think that Shawshank is more challenging than you give it credit for and Ebert did a good job of describing why.  Forrest Gump was boomer please pablum.  Pulp Fiction has a very interesting narrative structure—but not something we haven’t seen before.  The movie is called Pulp Fiction because it builds on—wait for it—pulp fiction stories from the 30s and 40s.  Some of those stories were turned into films.  See for example The Big Sleep.  What Pulp Fiction did was take themes from earlier examples and rework them with a complex narrative structure, and most importantly a deep respect for cool.

Ebert makes this point:

What’s best and most unusual about “The Shawshank Redemption” is how difficult a film it is to accurately be described. At first it seems to be mainly about the horrors of prison, then it becomes one about a friendship, later on it is about man’s dependency on the walls that incarcerate him, further on about hope and despair and finally, two hours into it, we discover we are actually watching an escape movie, something that by that point was the furthest thing from my mind despite being well aware that the literal translation of its Spanish title is “Dreams of Escape.” I also believe “Shawshank” came dangerously close to turning into a complete downer, much like “Midnight Express,” but part of the greatness about it is that it managed to end up as exactly the opposite.

The film ends up being epic in scope but stays largely within the walls of a prison.  It gives you twenty years in the lives of these characters and explores them at significant depth compared to more common films.  In that way, it is bigger than Forrest Gump or Pulp Fiction or most Oscar winners. 

I don’t think it is the best film of all time, and I think it easily loses its power after a few viewing, but it is definitely a great film.

Comment #8: Reece  on  04/26  at  10:58 AM

@riffraff: I have no idea what point you’re trying to make about the lack of women in the movie.  Yes, they selected a novella with almost no women in it to adapt for a screenplay.  And it turned out to be popular!  Imagine that.

Comment #9: Punditus Maximus  on  04/26  at  10:58 AM

A solid reasoning as to why I enjoyed American History X.  Which was another movie where women were basically written out.

Comment #10: cynickal  on  04/26  at  11:04 AM

It’s interesting to compare Shawshank, in the context of this post, to the movie that it keeps switching places with for the Number 1 slot on IMDb - The Godfather. The Godfather has a lot more female characters in it, but not a single one of them has any degree of agency. (Maybe Kate a tiny, tiny bit.) It’s a world ruled by men. Which is realistic, so I’m not necessarily faulting the movie for that, but the effect is much the same as with Shawshank - you can capture a larger audience by simply leaving women out. As aimai said in the first comment, women are used to identifying with male characters, because a lot of the time they have no choice. But most men sure as hell aren’t used to identifying with female characters.

I think The Godfather is an awesome movie, but in some ways it also rose to the top by playing it safe. It’s just so easy to get a cheap moral thrill out of identifying with Sonny’s anger over his sister’s abusive husband. You can practically sit there and pat yourself on the back for not thinking women should be beat up by their husbands. Like I said, it’s an easy moral position to take so it appeals to people.

It doesn’t sound like you guys have actually read the novella.  There were no female characters in it either.  Rita Hayworth hardly counts as a character.  So I think these points are misdirected.

You’re a little dense. Amanda’s post is about the effect the lack of female characters had on the movie’s popularity and its relative inoffensiveness. She never said the director was right or wrong to not include female characters.

Comment #11: Triplanetary  on  04/26  at  11:16 AM

Shawshank is a good movie.  It is not the best movie produced in the last 70 years.  But it is rated as such, because it was not offensive to anyone.  One reason this was true was the lack of female characters.

I wanted to restate Amanda Marcotte’s thesis, because people seem to be confused about it.

Comment #12: Punditus Maximus  on  04/26  at  11:16 AM

I’ve had a similar theory that a cast of mixed sexes is a distraction. I blame it on Hollywood’s insistence that there must, must, MUST be a romantic subplot in every single damn movie.

Take two acclaimed horror movies, The Descent and John Carpenter’s The Thing. They’re both cast with one sex (I’m not including the boyfriend in Descent, since he’s just a plot device with less than a minute of screentime). Now picture those movies with a photogenic opposite sex member, commenting on how it feels to be the one girl/guy, being the butt of jokes, and giving meaningful gazes to the lead character.

There! Doesn’t the movie in your head suck more than the real one?

Comment #13: kaje  on  04/26  at  11:17 AM

Regarding Pawlenty, Mother Jones has a good piece on their site about his crazy, right wing pick for school czar when he was a governor. That will score him some serious points with the “prayer in school, evolution is evil, don’t tell the kids about ‘the gay’” crowd.

I stopped watching the Oscars for years after Forrest Gump won because it’s such a ridiculous movie. But Shawshank (despite it’s lack of women) is not. It really is a great film and based upon the time and place, it is hard to see where they could have worked an important female character into the plot. There certainly were no women prison guards in those days.

I realize that I am one of the only people on the face of the earth who absolutely hated Pulp Fiction and I don’t care. Besides throwaway films like “Porky’s”, I cannot ever remember seeing a film with more ridiculous female caricatures in it than Pulp Fiction. I think I’m just way too practical because I would have lost it if seriously dangerous people were chasing after me and my girlfriend was talking about pancakes. It’s not smart to OD in a room full of strangers. It’s not empowering to act like you’re about to have an orgasm because your boyfriend is planning a robbery. I know it’s just me, but I wanted my money back after I sat through that film.

Comment #14: serious bette  on  04/26  at  11:18 AM

  Well, repeated studies dating back to Deborah Tannen and Carole Tavris have pointed out that if women talk more than about 30% of the time, both men and women perceive them as dominating the conversation.  So a movie without women is….proper. I imagine up till then women are considered irritants of various degrees, and even sex scenes and T & A can’t compensate for the fact that a woman’s on the screen where a guy should be.

Comment #15: ginmar  on  04/26  at  11:19 AM

I can’t believe they didn’t stick a few girls into Lord of the Flies for the big-screen version.

Comment #16: norbizness  on  04/26  at  11:20 AM

Also, Huckabee really liked to pardon prisoners as governor, at least if they convinced him they were sufficiently hyper-christian to be worthy.  Repugs don’t like that at the best of times, but it gets much better/worse.  One of his pardonees, who turned out not to be just hyper-christian, but crazy messianic, eventually killed four cops in a deliberate anti-cop ambush.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Clemmons

Somehow, I think that *might* be something that could prove to be a small vulnerability come primary time.  As in, anyone worried about losing to him would spend ALL their money on ads featuring that mug shot until Huck’s poll numbers approached absolute zero.

Comment #17: Scrawney Kayaker  on  04/26  at  11:21 AM

(Unless you did something creative, like cast a Thing character as a forty-something butch lesbian that everyone treats as one of the guys, like I did.)

Comment #18: kaje  on  04/26  at  11:22 AM

It is strange that Night of the Comet and Girls Just Want to Have Fun (films with two female leads) aren’t in heavy TBS rotation; everybody seems to love space vampires and Sarah Jessica Parker these days.

Comment #19: norbizness  on  04/26  at  11:23 AM

Reece @8: Would this mean The Old Man and the Sea is a mediocre book?  Or that Waiting for Godot is a mediocre play?

kaje @18: (Unless you did something creative, like cast a Thing character as a forty-something butch lesbian that everyone treats as one of the guys, like I did.)


Well, that’s a worthy analysis. How would Shawshank, Hemingway and Beckett fare with genders reversed?

I know it doesn’t work on Neil Simon.

Comment #20: Yamara  on  04/26  at  11:35 AM

And norbizness, I want my all-girl Lord of the Flies on my VLC like yesterday.

Comment #21: Yamara  on  04/26  at  11:41 AM

Great post, except the crazy implication that there are no great Sinatra albums.

Comment #22: JasonB  on  04/26  at  11:41 AM

I have to imagine that this is why Kerry got the nomination in 2004 - war vet, decently in line with enough of the Democratic values that no one really hated him. Dean was too outspoken, Edwards had a chance but was a little too populist for the time, Kucinich was then and in 2008 a little too liberal for the majority of the party…

Comment #23: Hobbes  on  04/26  at  11:49 AM

The idea behind “mediocrity rules” is that true greatness always runs the risk of offense, or at least turning people off.

In comparison to Pulp Fiction, yes, but that could be said about almost any studio product in 1994.

Otherwise, I’m not sure if it played it safe to the degree you claim. The title wasn’t the type to draw in audiences, they didn’t really promote the Steven King connection, and it was known to contain disturbing sequences about rape and violence against frustrated, helpless victims. The stars weren’t A-listers like Hanks or Schwarzennegger or Ford or Cruise, there was zero appeal to kids and no reliance on SFX, animation, or broad comedy. It wasn’t a sequel and wasn’t one of the more common genre films (action, rom-com, comedy, spectacle, etc.)

These days (thanks in large part to Tarantino but also to the Internet) this kind of approach to a mainstream movie . Not so then.  The 1994 box-office receipts reflect that, with a lot of safer choices (Forrest Gump prime amongst them) making a lot more money and getting a lot more media buzz.

All that said, Shawshank wasn’t positioned as an indie picture with potential cult value like Pulp Fiction was, either. It was basically the sort of picture that the studio had low expectations for—a little different but still workmanlike and mainstream enough to at least break even, not worth a big marketing campaign or investment in big stars. If anything it rose above the mediocrity that the studio executives (mediocrities themselves) attributed to it.

None of that really contradicts your main points, but relatively speaking Shawshank wasn’t as safe as and was a little more challenging than other studio product at the time.

The Shawshank principle, by the way, is why I’m convinced that Tim Pawlenty is going to win the Republican nomination

He’s a solid pick, but I’m betting on Gingrich to get the nom (talk about back to 1994!). From what I see, the challenge for the GOP is finding a candidate who’s acceptable to the moneyCons and neoCons but also knows how to pander convincingly to the Know-Nothings and Teabaggers. Pawlenty as you describe him is more a passive version of that approach, but in a contest between passive and active (and taking into account name recognition) Newt has a better shot.

Comment #24: Gracchus.  on  04/26  at  12:02 PM

“Lawrence of Arabia” has no female characters.”

As is true of David Lean’s movie before that, Bridge on the River Kwai

There is one scene where the Arabs and Lawrence march off into battle and the Arab women ululate a victory send off from the cliffs above them.

You can see it @ 1:45 in the trailer on Youtube.

Comment #25: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  04/26  at  12:05 PM

It’s funny Lord of the Flies comes up here. When we read it in 9th grade, my class spent an awful long time on a tangent discussing if things would have been better or worse on the island if girls had been there. I think I was on the outside circle taking notes at the time and could not participate, but my memory is that the general consensus was that the island would have been just as bad if it had been all-girl and that the most stable population would be a mixed group with of men and women, children and adults. (We didn’t talk about race at all.) No one could agree what would happen if it was boys and girls.

Comment #26: ElleDee  on  04/26  at  12:11 PM

I like the concept of “The Shawshank Principle.” When I was in college, we called it “The Steely Dan Principle,” but I think “Shawshank” is an even better encapsulation.

Comment #27: RickMassimo  on  04/26  at  12:11 PM

This theory could be applied to my high school years at a Jesuit, all boys school. Supposedly, the lack of female distraction was supposed to allow the true man in me to flourish without judgement or adulteration. Magically, all my energies would be put towards my studies and male bonding. Plus, sex and Roman Catholics=icky


All of which, of course, is bullshit. Plus, alot more showers would have been taken and the whole school would not have smelled of feet.

Comment #28: Danzig  on  04/26  at  12:12 PM

“I think The Godfather is an awesome movie, but in some ways it also rose to the top by playing it safe. It’s just so easy to get a cheap moral thrill out of identifying with Sonny’s anger over his sister’s abusive husband. You can practically sit there and pat yourself on the back for not thinking women should be beat up by their husbands.”

There isn’t one major character in that movie who is genuinely good, except maybe Kay.  (Sure, Sonny comes unglued because his sister is being beaten by her worthless two-timing husband.  The same Sonny who is two-timing his own wife and has the moral character of a gutter snipe.)  All these people are somewhere on the bad side of the good/bad scale.  Michael might have been good if he’d stayed out of The Family Business, but he doesn’t, and it takes an admirable (and possibly heroic) WWII soldier and turns him into another monster living in a world of monsters.

It’s hard for me to think of the Godfather as “playing it safe”.  The level of violence, the repugnance of most of the characters, the horror of realizing these people take all the evil in their lives as just being normal, it’s all pretty far out there, especially for a major motion picture and not just some sub-titled European/Japanese art house film.

I think the Godfather was successful in spite of not “playing is safe”.  IMHO…

Comment #29: MikeEss  on  04/26  at  12:25 PM

Even the rape somehow gets removed from the toxic gender norms that create rape (and therefore allow men to become victims) by the magic lady erasure of the movie.

I recall Shawshank having an interesting line when Andy says to Red something like “I guess it wouldn’t help [me with the rapist dudes] if I told them I’m not homosexual,” and Red replies, “neither are they. They’d have to be human first.” Kind of a dignified defense of gays (supposedly taking in place in the 50s) in an extremely limited way.

Comment #30: Dan Watson  on  04/26  at  12:44 PM

Hate to give reading recommendations to busy people who read a lot, but I
think you really should check out the article about Anna Farris in the
April 11 New Yorker. It’s as much about how women are depicted in movies
as it is about Farris and provides a lot of very interesting insight that
you could use in these kinds of articles.

Link follows, but it’s just an abstract that doesn’t give much of a clue about what the
article is really about.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/04/11/110411fa_fact_friend

Haven’t seen Shawshank and your article confirms my reservations.

Comment #31: chuckling  on  04/26  at  01:04 PM

But Shawshank (despite it’s lack of women) is not. It really is a great film and based upon the time and place, it is hard to see where they could have worked an important female character into the plot. There certainly were no women prison guards in those days.
Comment #14: serious bette on 04/26 at 11:18 AM

I can’t believe they didn’t stick a few girls into Lord of the Flies for the big-screen version.
Comment #16: norbizness on 04/26 at 11:20 AM

I don’t think Amanda was saying that those movies/stories should have had women put into them in some kind of quota frenzy.  She was making an observation, not a demand.

Comment #32: oldfeminist  on  04/26  at  01:23 PM

I have to take issue with the idea that both conservatives and liberals can love Shawshank Redemption. Andy may (conveniently) be innocent, but none of the other prisoner characters are and the movie still does a lot to humanize them while making the authority figures into major pricks. The prison director more or less does what a Republican these days would think is the proper way to run a prison : make it a for profit enterprise (the fact he garnished some of the moneys for himself might play badly with the populist wing, not so much with the elite part of the party). The guards are vicious and mean, just like they should be in the magic GOP utopia.

I have to agree that no *reasonable* human being would find anything objectionable with it, though.

Comment #33: BlackBloc  on  04/26  at  01:28 PM

I hate The Godfather series. Seriously. HATE. I also hate most of the James Bond movies. Both of these series dominate the television every single holiday. I think it’s because a lot of men get holiday time off, so they are home. And when they are home they get to control what the rest of the family watches, therefore TV stations pander to them. This is related to the fact that TVs in public areas are mostly either tuned to Fox News or ESPN, because that’s what a certain type of dude likes - the type of dude who feels entitled to make a stink if every single thing doesn’t cater to him at all times.

Comment #34: Entomologista  on  04/26  at  01:32 PM

Coming out of deep lurking mode to add to the disagreements about Shawshank. I disagree that it’s popular because it had no female characters. It’s popular because it’s a layered, well-crafted film. Not all all-male films are a conspiracy…

But, if you want ammunition to further your Hollywood argument, I’ll note that of the four novellas King included in Different Seasons, only the three with primarily male characters were turned into films: Shawshank, The Body (filmed as the also-classic Stand By Me), and Apt Pupil, which wasn’t a very good film. The last novella probably wouldn’t make a good film either, but it does at least feature a female character, whose determination to give birth to an illegitimate child continues after her rather gruesome demise.

Comment #35: LostSailor  on  04/26  at  01:32 PM

@LostSailor: The point is that layered, well-crafted films that do feature female characters usually take a hit in popularity. The fact that Shawshank is layered and well-crafted does not negate the fact that it is very likely that being a dude-only film gave it a popularity boost.

Sort of like the glass ceiling. A movie with female character has to work twice as hard as one without to get to the same recognition.

Comment #36: BlackBloc  on  04/26  at  01:44 PM

I really don’t think that anybody is saying every single all-male film is a conspiracy. I doubt authors or screen writers say to themselves “I am definitely not going to have any women in this story because girls are teh yuck!” It’s more like they have a story they want to write, and because we live in the patriarchy there are many stories you can tell without women and no penalties for excluding women.

Comment #37: Entomologista  on  04/26  at  01:44 PM

I just think there are better films to use as a name for this principle, since Shawshank is a bit feel-good but IMO uses some of its non-threateningness (ooh, inventing words) as a way to make its humanizing message about prisoners pass without too many people choking on it.

The Forrest Gump Principle would work better, and you don’t even have to change the year of the film you’re using as an example. wink

To be fair, I do agree that Shawshank takes only very calculated and minimal risks, but the effect of being really radical is being doomed to obscurity, so sometimes if you want a risky message to pass you sort of have to make everything else palatable. You only challenge the audience on one point and make everything else fulfill their expectations. Otherwise you get something like another film I liked about prison life, a German film called Quatre Minutes in its French translation (Four Minutes in English? Not sure they used that as the translated title though) : a really good film that’s doomed to obscurity.

Comment #38: BlackBloc  on  04/26  at  01:50 PM

God in Heaven:

Shawshank is popular because it is a very good movie.

It is the MOST POPULAR MOVIE EVER because, among other things, it has no women in it.

Let’s break it down:

Very good movie with women in it: possibly quite popular, based on its quality.
Very good movie without women in it: possibly the most popular ever, based on its combination of quality and comfort inducement.

Geez do people ever hate it when the Patriarchy is indelibly outlined.

Comment #39: Punditus Maximus  on  04/26  at  01:52 PM

Amanda, you managed to clarify for me why I always gave Shawshank a shoulder shrug and an “It’s okay” when asked what I thought of it.  It is so relentlessly male that it eventually gets boring.  I once spent a week, when I was seventeen, in a situation where there were hundreds and hundreds of teenaged boys and a lot of male adult supervision and I look back upon it as one of the most boring, awful weeks of my life.

Then again, I enjoyed Tank Girl, so I guess I’m weird.

Comment #40: DBK  on  04/26  at  01:55 PM

Like many films for me Shawshank benefited from modest expectations.  Just having key female characters doesn’t necessarily make a film better.  After all, Gump had Jenny, whose libertine hippie ways were excused a little by having been abused by her redneck father, but she was punished for it anyway by dying of AIDS (God’s ultimate punishment on earth for sins).  Gump had the momma character, too, (Sally Field) who was saintly for screwing her way to getting an education for Forrest.

Comment #41: MiddleageLiberal  on  04/26  at  01:57 PM

Come to think of it, I’ll bet if Tank Girl were Tank Boy, it would have received a lot more appreciation from the critics.

Comment #42: DBK  on  04/26  at  01:58 PM

The defensive, point-missing reactions here really just underscore the point about how people act when gender norms are called into question and why it’s the safer choice to avoid the issue.

Comment #43: Dan  on  04/26  at  02:12 PM

Shawshank is a good movie, great even, Top 250 material even. But the best of all time? It doesn’t have a cyborg Malcolm McDowell getting pelted with beer cans!

Comment #44: kaje  on  04/26  at  02:12 PM

I think you are right, Amanda, about Pawlenty, although I think there is still time for some as yet unknown person to sweep the conservative vote.  If Pawlenty does win the nomination, I look forward to ads showing the I-35 bridge collapsing over and over again so everyone can see what an incompetent a$$ he really is.

Comment #45: carovee  on  04/26  at  02:16 PM

It’s worth pointing out that Pulp Fiction is at #5 on IMDB, with only a 0.3-point lower rating than Shawshank.

Comment #46: keshmeshi  on  04/26  at  02:21 PM

Reece @ 8:
I hated both The Old Man and the Sea and The Catcher in the Rye when forced to read them in jr high and high school, respectively.  It wasn’t until years later that I realized part of that was because I was expected to relate to the characters, that I was supposed to think of them as someone like me, and really, that fell completely flat.  So, yes, having no female characters does mean that The Old Man and the Sea is not nearly as good as most peole (read guys here) insist it is.  Seriously, I do not think of it as a great and timeless classic; perhaps a decent story though.  I wont even get into what I thought of The Red Badge of Courage.

Comment #47: helen w. h.  on  04/26  at  02:29 PM

Oh, The Old Man and the Sea was horrible.  I never did like Hemingway, though.  The Sun Also Rises was the only book of his I enjoyed.  The rest were all pretty “meh”.  What was that one, was it Farewell to Arms, the one with the woman the protagonist called “Rabbit”, and there seemed to be about fifty pages of dialogue that went, “Oh Rabbit”, “Oh Paco” (or whatever his name was), “Oh Rabbit”, “Oh Paco”, on and on and I was supposed to read that crap?

Don’t get me started on Hemingway.  You want to talk overrated, you’re talking Hemingway.

Comment #48: DBK  on  04/26  at  02:39 PM

Helen, you really summed up what reading a lot of the canon was like for me, also.  I didn’t hate but was very “meh” about catcher and old man and the sea, thought red badge of courage was possibly the most boring piece of crap book ever written, and i know there ARE female characters in tolkien, but i could not get far enough into the hobbit/lotr to find any, so i gave up.  not to say there aren’t a jillion male characters i can identify with, but sometimes the weight of All Dudes All The Time in Serious Literature is really crushing, especially to a young reader.

Comment #49: chareth cutestory  on  04/26  at  02:43 PM

Chareth?  Kate Chopin.  If you don’t know her work, you should get to know it.

Comment #50: DBK  on  04/26  at  02:47 PM

I’d say it was a toss up between the sun also rises (don’t talk about wine and emotion?  WTF?) and Farwell to arms as to which was more numbing.  Hemmingway?  I lived in Idaho.  Fuck but anyone literate there seems to gush over Hemmingway and I think he sucks.  I really disliked Faulkner, too, but for different reasons.
The Body has female supporting characters; just no major ones.  Women were not completely erased from Stand By Me.
I’m no a big fan of Pulp fiction.  Tarantino is dirivative.  I never have understood why anyone thinks he is such a daring genius.  But Shawshank?  Meh is about right.

Comment #51: helen w. h.  on  04/26  at  02:51 PM

As for Hollywood, the cycle of caution began to feed on itself years ago:

http://www.gq.com/entertainment/movies-and-tv/201102/the-day-the-movies-died-mark-harris?currentPage=all

If it doesn’t come with a built-in branding franchise, no one wants to look at it.

I had long dreaded the release of Un Chien Andalou II: Chien Vengeance (PG-13), but the toy line never took off.

Of course, if toys and cartoons are the sole basis for all new major movies being produced, we all know where that leaves the ladies.

Comment #52: Yamara  on  04/26  at  02:58 PM

Just having key female characters doesn’t necessarily make a film better. 
Comment #41: MiddleageLiberal on 04/26 at 01:57 PM

Who said it did?

It is easier for a film to be uncontroversial and therefore potentially likeable if there are no women in it.  “A good man” can still be interesting; for a woman to be “a good woman” she has to be almost totally featureless.  Any personality and she’s someone with smelly unpleasant opinions.  If she does anything she’s showing off.  If she has emotions other than being strong and supportive of male characters, she’s annoyingly emotional.  Anger is right out.

Comment #53: oldfeminist  on  04/26  at  03:04 PM

I’d say the same thing about Super Bowl halftime shows. By all rights, the slot the Who got to play CSI’s Greatest Hits should have gone to someone like Lady Gaga, Beyonce, or Rihanna—a pop musician with undeniable talent and a knack for filling arenas. This year, we got the Black Eyed Peas, who once fit that definition (and actually do have a solid, talented female lead) but are far, far beyond their prime artistically. I’m surprised CBS even let Fergie wear a skirt.

I was watching 60 Minutes on Mt. Athos on Sunday night. The monks there don’t let women enter except under very extreme circumstances because they’re afraid of distraction. Putting aside for the moment that the monastic life is probably little more than a religiously-labeled refuge for people with some pretty serious social issues to begin with, it shows just how many religious people are running scared from their own humanity, and would rather blame women for it than be respectful and try to find a way to engage the world. (Of course, it isn’t just women… one of the monks they interviewed was from Winthrop, MA and evidently had detached himself so far from the outside world that he didn’t even bother to keep up with the Red Sox scores, and another had refused to go home for his father’s funeral. If that’s a life to be held as holy, I think I’d like Hell better.)

Comment #54: BrianX  on  04/26  at  03:06 PM

chareth @49: There are no female characters to speak of in The Hobbit. Bilbo’s mother Belladonna Took ran off to adventure, leaving her husband and son, but this is all off-stage and mentioned in passing. Her unwritten story remains the book everyone would rather read.

In LotR the women who do appear are all, with a single exception, expected to stay at home and spin. The fact that Eowyn and Galadriel are allowed to stand out as strong figures in the narrative says a lot for the conservative Tolkien, who witnessed tremendous strength in adversity in his mother. But Middle-Earth as written is quite the sausage-fest.

Comment #55: Yamara  on  04/26  at  03:08 PM

My son didn’t have any problem getting into eithr Tank Girl or Night of the Comet - both great schlocky scifi films.

Comment #56: helen w. h.  on  04/26  at  03:10 PM

I had long dreaded the release of Un Chien Andalou II: Chien Vengeance (PG-13), but the toy line never took off.

To be fair, Mainway Toys was the subject of a smear job by the librul media. Calls for intrusive goverment restrictions on entrepreneurs aside, products like “Blinky the Razor” and the “Living Ant Farm” would have been both fun and culturally stimulating for young children.

Comment #57: Gracchus.  on  04/26  at  03:17 PM

@BlackBloc

Sort of like the glass ceiling. A movie with female character has to work twice as hard as one without to get to the same recognition.

I’m still not entirely buying it. Keep in mind that this is a list of favorites on IMDB and that most of the top films on that list are either epic or violent and beloved by nerdy fanboys. I think a similar list by film critics would be very different. In that regard, I would give you Alien/Aliens franchise, epic, violent films with a strong female lead that was quite successful, and, at least the first two were quite good.

Oh, and Shawshank the best movie ever? Pleease! The best movie ever is, of course, Casablanca!

Comment #58: LostSailor  on  04/26  at  03:26 PM

but sometimes the weight of All Dudes All The Time in Serious Literature is really crushing, especially to a young reader.

It’s even harder when you get used to writers who include a variety of characters.  The Wheel of Time series isn’t perfect, but it certainly has plenty of female characters who are more than just cardboard cut-outs.  I tried to read LOTR for the second time right after finishing a WoT book, and it was just really striking that there were basically no women at all.  It just felt surreal, because I was used to having all kinds of characters for the 11 or so books that I had just read.  I’ll admit that I have never made it all the way through the LOTR books, although I did make 5/6 of the way through during my last attempt.  It’s not because of lack of female characters though; it’s just a dry writing style.  I’ve seen the movies and I love the plot, but the writing just doesn’t captivate me.  But I actually didn’t notice the lack of women during my first attempt to read it, which was before I read some books that had great female characters.

Comment #59: bananacat  on  04/26  at  03:26 PM

Wow, apparently I was kicked off the registration list in the last upgrade.  Weird.

Anyway, I always have a problem with “great” literature and “great” movies because it seems so much of it is character-driven, and I prefer climatic plot structures.  I don’t want there to be poor characterization, but I want the characters to actually DO something, instead of talk all the time.  Pretty much all early-American literature fails at this to me- the Scarlet Letter, for example, doesn’t have Hester Pryne do anything, but rather things are done to her.  Later, when we get the transcendentalist, it seems like a lot of standing around duck ponds thinking, which is fine to do, boring to read.

Movies tend to have the same problem.  With the exception of “Good Will Hunting” I don’t like character-focused films.  “The Shawshank Redemption” honestly puts me to sleep.  The entire genre of biopics is something I tend to avoid like the plague.  I think that’s why I like Sci-Fi and Fantasy more; almost by definition, it HAS to do something.  You have to go find the maguffin, and save the day and fulfill your destiny.  Now, a reason a lot of sci-fi and fantasy sucks is because they forget that you actually have to write a plot and put actual motivations to the characters, instead of a paint-by-numbers Dungeons and Dragons adventure, but Sturgeon’s Law.

I see the value of character-driven movies, and I know it’s a personal preference.  But, I think the reasons I watch movies is to identify with characters, inspires emotion, and to enjoy the ride.  I’m already cut out of fully identifying with a lot of character-driven movies because it is such a sausage fest.  “Star Wars” could still be “Star Wars” if we switched the genders (mmm, Han Solo in a gold speedo).  How well could you say that about “The Shawshank Redemption”?

Comment #60: Antigone  on  04/26  at  03:31 PM

There’s some really world class point missing going on in this thread!

Comment #61: Katherine  on  04/26  at  03:32 PM

The thing about ‘no women characters’ is that by default it fails the Bechdel test:

http://alisonbechdel.blogspot.com/2005/08/rule.html

http://bechdeltest.com/

I think it’s about time this got brought up again here on Pandagon (see mention in first link).

Comment #62: KMac  on  04/26  at  03:39 PM

I don’t usually agree with Amanda but she’s right on the money here. First of all, the mediocrity. Shawshank is a very well crafted film, but can hardly be regarded as ‘art’ in the same way The Godfather films or Vertigo or Pulp Fiction for instance can be. It’s like the Coldplay of films, in a way. It ticks a lot of boxes: It’s inspirational without questioning the concept of a prison system too closely, harrowing in the right places, pro-tolerance while keeping the racial minority character strictly as a framing device. The character of Andy Dufresne is vague enough so that anyone could hypothetically identify with him, there are no rough edges. It’s a film with no flaws to turn anyone off.

As for the question of women in film, it isn’t just Shawshank. The Godfathers, Twelve Angry Men, Seven Samurai, The Good, The Bad and the Ugly - most of the films near the top of the IMDB list are predominantly male. The most prominent female role in any of them is Nurse Ratched in One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest, which speaks for itself.

But I actually think this has less to do with catering for a male audience than it does with the weaknesses of many screenwriters. Even some of the most talented male writers and directors often seem to have trouble writing female characters, and so their films end up being light on women. Many of the most talented female screenwriters and directors (I’m thinking of Jane Campion, Kelly Reichardt, Andrea Arnold, etc.) tend to make very personal, uncommercial films and so rarely the twain shall meet.

Comment #63: Stubborn Kind of Fellow  on  04/26  at  03:49 PM

DBK, i LOVE kate chopin!  thank god for majoring in english in college, as i was exposed to a shit-ton more great books (not to mention a broader perspective.  case in point, my junior english teacher in high school once told us, rather decisively, that “men play at love to receive sex and women do the opposite.”  seriously.  in like, 1998.) 

yamara, thanks for letting me know i ain’t missing shit w/r/t tolkien. 

catgirl, i have never read the wheel of time series.  i definitely need to check it out.

blackbloc, i think the issue is that even conservatives often delude themselves into thinking that they are in fact, reasonable, enlightened humans.  like, if it just so happened that innocent tim robbins ended up in prison, THEY would totally be the ones to help him out and not be the “bad guys” like those guards, of COURSE.  buuuuut in the REAL world, fuck the accused—they’re obviously all guilty and law enforcement are the real ‘murkin heroes.  it’s much like the cognitive dissonance conservative have about co-opting MLK at the moment.

Comment #64: chareth cutestory  on  04/26  at  03:59 PM

I do think that mediocrity is probably the wrong word, which is pretty clearly the case given the extent that the OP stresses that Shawshank isn’t a mediocre movie. Maybe more like, comfortableness, or conformity, or somesuch. Stories tend to win out when they play to and reassure, rather than challenge, the prejudices and preconceptions of their audience. This applies to politicians as well, since of course every politician is, ultimately, telling a story.

Comment #65: Dan  on  04/26  at  04:01 PM

<blockquote>telling a story</blockquote.

Meant to say, selling a story.

Comment #66: Dan  on  04/26  at  04:02 PM

I don’t know. I’ve kicked around two ideas for SF plots—one is a Star Trek fanfic idea where the ship’s captain is Cardassian and first officer a female human, the other a (allegedly) original idea with an ensemble cast where two of the lead characters are female. I don’t think either one would sell. Here’s why.

The first one (set two centuries after the Dominion War) features a non-human Captain. You’ll notice that even though at the beginning of Star Trek II, Spock, though nominally the captain of the Enterprise, never actually served in that role as long as (should-be-flying-a-desk flag officer and quite human) Kirk was on screen; it will also be noted that of all the things people criticized the flawed-but-still-underrated ST:Voyager for, it seemed like the female captain (who I thought was rather realistically portrayed as permanently stressed out and hypercaffeinated) and the “politically correct” cast that was in reality nowhere near diverse enough, given the Federation’s makeup. (Not to mention Majel Barrett’s shabby treatment by the network as Number One in the original pilot.)

The other one is more complex, and it’s constantly evolving. I’m not comfortable with some of the subplots—both female characters have romance arcs, the first successful with some Unfortunate Implications regarding her background and behavior, the second failing disastrously when she drives her love interest away with some highly unethical (but to her necessary for sentimental reasons) behavior. I’ve no idea where to take these stories, especially since the two don’t interact much (there are two other female characters that the first one does deal with quite regularly, but they aren’t in the forefront).

Is there a reason for this post? I suppose so, just kind of wondering where to go with it…

Comment #67: BrianX  on  04/26  at  04:15 PM

Just having key female characters doesn’t necessarily make a film better. 

Man, thank GOD I didn’t say that, or you’d have a point.

Comment #68: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/26  at  04:16 PM

Heh, a friend in college off-handedly referred to ‘Shawshank’ as “a chick flick for guys” in a campus newspaper article. Boy, did she catch flack from the dudebros.

Comment #69: Shiny  on  04/26  at  04:16 PM

Pawlenty is probably the safe bet to take the GOP nomination, and unfortunately, he is also probably the only Republican candidate who I could actually see beating Obama next year, if the economic climate is still as lousy as it is today.

Despite everything, I think Obama is still the favorite to win next November, but I’m less certain of that today than I was a year ago. He’s looking damn vulnerable right now, and his best hope largely rests on the wingnut base screwing up their opportunity, which I still think they can and hopefully will do.

I don’t want Pawlenty to win the GOP nomination, because I fear he may be the one Republican who has enough centrist appeal to be able to defeat President Obama.

Comment #70: DTGslu2K  on  04/26  at  04:17 PM

Pawlenty is probably the safe bet to take the GOP nomination, and unfortunately, he is also probably the only Republican candidate who I could actually see beating Obama next year, if the economic climate is still as lousy as it is today.

Despite everything, I think Obama is still the favorite to win next November, but I’m less certain of that today than I was a year ago. He’s looking damn vulnerable right now, and his best hope largely rests on the wingnut base screwing up their opportunity, which I still think they can and hopefully will do.

I don’t want Pawlenty to win the GOP nomination, because I fear he may be the one Republican who has enough centrist appeal to be able to defeat President Obama.

Comment #71: DTGslu2K  on  04/26  at  04:17 PM

Damn, there’s a ton of beating a straw-Amanda in this thread.  Is it that some dudes just can’t read, or are they eager to believe the worst?

Comment #72: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/26  at  04:17 PM

By the bye, it’s not about just men.  Because The Patriarchy makes it impossible for women to choose without fear, women themselves will also be possibly turned off by movies with women in them, as any choices made by the women in those movies will bring additional doses of fear regarding their own choices.

Comment #73: Punditus Maximus  on  04/26  at  04:17 PM

I can’t agree with this at all.  You are basically saying that a movie is bad/boring/banal/bourgeois (all the “B"s)  because it has no female characters. 

False.  Please learn to read.

Comment #74: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/26  at  04:18 PM

“Is it that some dudes just can’t read, or are they eager to believe the worst?”

Pandagon is a both/and blog…

Comment #75: MikeEss  on  04/26  at  04:20 PM

helen @47,

I can imagine those three books would fall flat to women but even as a guy for me they’re in the top ten of overrated literature.  I managed to avoid Catcher until I was in my 40’s and only read it because so many guys thought it was important.  Godawful. 

Do high school English classes torture students with Hawthorne’s Scarlett Letter or Seven Gables anymore?

Comment #76: MiddleageLiberal  on  04/26  at  04:22 PM

Definitely, Punditus. While the Hollywood wisdom is that men make movie choices and so who cares what women think, I do think internalized misogyny makes women hyper-critical.  Also, the lack of female roles means the few that are out there carry too much weight to Represent The Sex.  Which is why you see women complain when Liz Lemon is flawed.

Comment #77: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/26  at  04:30 PM

kaje@13: Yes, there must be a romantic subplot in all Hollywood movies, even crappy ones. Think about the numerous sci-fi movies made in the 50s and 60s which ALWAYS included a female astronaut (at a time when no woman would have been considered remotely qualified for such a job) just so that 1) the captain, Sledge Beefpile, could have a love interest, which led to 2) the woman gets rescued from the lava monster by Capt. Beefpile.

Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein@25: Not to be picky, but The Bridge on the River Kwai does have some female characters: a “nurse” (that’s her role in the credits, “Nurse”) who frolics briefly in the surf with William Holden and some unnamed “Siamese” women who go (as guides and porters) on the expedition back to the prison camp—but that really supports your point, since none of these characters were in the original Pierre Boulle novel and were only added to, you guessed it, provide some romantic interest in an otherwise all-male story.

Yamara@52: Un Chien Andalou II: Chien Vengeance is beyond brilliant. Can’t wait to see it!

Comment #78: iloverocknroll  on  04/26  at  04:31 PM

Another movie thought was really good but played it safe and kept things safe but making sure you knew it was taking place in a remote time and location was District 9. District 9 would have been a really profound movie if it had taken place in somewhere like LA, Texas, or Detroit instead of South Africa.

Comment #79: Tersa  on  04/26  at  05:00 PM

Tersa I assume you are being sarcastic…

Comment #80: John Joel Glanton  on  04/26  at  05:08 PM

Tersa:

Um… If you were watching it in South Africa, that would have been exactly the point. It was made by a ZA filmmaker, so the setting is about what you’d expect.

Comment #81: BrianX  on  04/26  at  05:08 PM

I can proudly say I have never seen Shawshank and have absolutely no interest in doing so.

Comment #82: alicefairy  on  04/26  at  05:10 PM

I scarcely think characters who are identified by profession or not at all and occupy mere inconsequential minutes really count. 

I think what gets everyone about Shawshank is the ending. That voiceover. It’s a friendship movie, and I think whoever said it was a chick flick for guys was right.

Comment #83: ginmar  on  04/26  at  05:36 PM

“Tersa I assume you are being sarcastic…”

I wonder if that’s true also…

However, if not…

Alien Nation played it safe, as did every Start Trek series and spinoff, and most other SF movies or TV.  All the aliens look human/humanoid, nothing too far out there to scare folks or really make them think about what being truly alien would be like.  It’s pretty easy to love or hate the aliens and not think much about it one way or another.

District 9 was stunning, and one of the main reasons was that the aliens in this case were really, truly, unquestionably alien.  The setting in South Africa was a two-edged sword.  On the one hand, it was easy for the idea of keeping the aliens in their own ghetto to get attached (and written off) to the long history of extreme race-relation problems in South Africa (if you wanted to pretend it couldn’t happen here).  But for anyone with any understanding of history and the way people react to “foreigners” or “aliens” (even if they are human) it was quite easy to see the same thing happening anywhere else, including LA, Texas, or Detroit.  We do this crap to each other now, and there’s no question we’re all human.

District 9 was a really mind-bending experience, very similar to the way Planet of the Apes felt the first time I watched it.  Suddenly all this human exceptionalism we comfort ourselves with in comparison to the other “animals” we live with doesn’t seem quite so exceptional any more…

Comment #84: MikeEss  on  04/26  at  05:38 PM

chareth @64: yamara, thanks for letting me know i ain’t missing shit w/r/t tolkien.

Well, there are a couple surprising moments. Eowyn leaves Aragorn mumbling helplessly with lines that don’t make it to the movies like:

All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more.

Pretty kickass for being written in the ‘40s by a stodgy Catholic professor. Still, that’s only a handful out of a million words, and no work is for everyone. Modern fantasy wouldn’t exist without Tolkien, but the same might be said of Sir Walter Scott.

A more important omission is “The Scouring of the Shire” chapter near the end of LotR. The Powers That Be really don’t want you reading that.

Comment #85: Yamara  on  04/26  at  05:44 PM

iloverocknroll @78: The image of the sharp-nailed paw hovering delicately before a terrified Gallic eye will be one of the indelible images of 21st Century cinema.

Comment #86: Yamara  on  04/26  at  05:59 PM

Alien Nation played it safe, as did every Start Trek series and spinoff, and most other SF movies or TV. All the aliens look human/humanoid, nothing too far out there to scare folks or really make them think about what being truly alien would be like.  It’s pretty easy to love or hate the aliens and not think much about it one way or another.

That’s one of the neat things about “Doctor Who”, classic series and the new stuff. Non-humanoid races are not only present, but they’re also often presented in a sympathetic light. Granted, the Doctor looks human, but he often goes to great pains to assure the mistaken that he decidedly is not a human. The spin-off media even moreso, but that’s one of the pitfalls of science fiction in television and movies as opposed literature. A good writer can make any concept of a being believable, but showing a bi-pedal, non-feathered creature with flat nails is just easier.

Comment #87: Matt T.  on  04/26  at  06:08 PM

MikeEss @84: The most impressive part of District 9 was the casting of the lead.

If more ordinary-looking male actors were given this exposure, there might be hope we’d see other people get their due in expensive-to-produce formats.

But as long as chilling tales of hyperbeauty are all the owners are willing to tell, we’ll have to keep turning away from the over-invested medias to find stories with originality and resonance with our own lives.

Comment #88: Yamara  on  04/26  at  06:28 PM

How did we get on overrated dude-books academic authorities force you to read because they are Classics without mentioning Moby Dick? It’s like the unfortunate offspring of an “understanding your dreams” book and a thesis on 19th century whaling.

I’m adding this principle to my argument for a decreased focus on literary classics in classrooms. Even he stuff that’s actually good, and significant, and worth your time often becomes mediocre do to the repetition of themes and archetypes especially within a certain era/movement. No one needs to read multiple Dickinson novels unless they really like his stuff.

Comment #89: scrumby  on  04/26  at  06:29 PM

Sorry i was being sincere, I didn’t realize District 9 was made by someone from ZA. I was being an over privledged american and just assumed it was made by an American who didn’t want to possibly offend people by setting in the USA and so chose SA. My bad sorry…

Comment #90: Tersa  on  04/26  at  06:31 PM

scrumby @ 89: No one needs to read multiple Dickinson novels unless they really like his stuff.

“Emily” being a popular boy’s name of the era.

Also, all novels were written with metre and rhyme in mind.

Comment #91: Yamara  on  04/26  at  06:36 PM

scrumby @ 89:

It can be very challenging to read works of the distant past. Robinson Crusoe is literally a long inventory list, and its sequel is worse. Frankenstein is a palpitating romance. I eyerolled Sir Walter Scott, and others have been dissing Hawthorne.

But all these authors shaped and inspired generations in their day. They moved imaginations and politics. The feelings you have for your favorite current author or movie are parallel to the feelings that made these older works classics.

Just as Aristotle can no longer be the cutting edge of science, these works are not about enjoying them as if they were the latest thing, but to understand how we got to where we are. It is not a thread to be cut lightly. The Dark and Middle Ages are a testament to what happens when ignorance is embraced in education.

Comment #92: Yamara  on  04/26  at  06:51 PM

I would like to be on the record that I suspect that the only reason Tim Pawlenty is noncontroversial is that the media considers him “Tim Paw—SNKKKK Huh? Who? What? I’m awake!” (as Rachel Maddow frequently points out.) He has an incredibly boring personality, which many people seem to confuse with non-controversial. Pawlenty has accusations against him that he’s severely mismanaged his state government and taken payoffs and offered illegal favors to businesses.

But who am I kidding? If conservative voters cared about graft, we wouldn’t be in the political situation we are.

Comment #93: Caelan Aegana  on  04/26  at  07:01 PM

1. My pick is Huckabee: the Overlords know the Republicans can’t really win, and really Obama’s the best thing that ever happened this time. H came in a strong second last time, so the Overlords will let him be the nominee so they can prove social conservatives can’t win and gear up for Jeb! in oh-twelve.

2. Whoever said Shawshank was a chick flick for guys is totally dead-on. Only in the total absence of women can a film be about emotional intimacy between men. It appeals to men because almost all men, like almost all people, really do crave emotional intimacy but the Patriarchy won’t let them have it. Also, Hollywood sucks.

3. The Godfather movies are painfully boring: I’ve never been able to get even halfway through the second one. Tank Girl totally ruled, though.

The Wheel of Time series isn’t perfect, but it certainly has plenty of female characters who are more than just cardboard cut-outs.

Only insofar as there are any characters at all who aren’t just cardboard cutouts.

Comment #94: felagund  on  04/26  at  07:02 PM

I think Pawlenty’s a strong possibility to win the nomination, but I hope he doesn’t. He’s just about the only candidate in the GOP field who I think could actually win next year, especially if the economy is still in the toilet and Obama’s still got negative approval numbers.

It’s kinda funny that the GOP actually has a strong chance to take back the White House if they could actually field someone who at least appears not to be completely batshit crazy, and they are very likely going to blow it.

I certainly hope so, anyway. I still think Obama’s the favorite next November, but I’m definitely more uneasy about his chances today than I was a year ago. The Ronald Reagan, “are you better off today than you were four years ago?” question could be quite problematic for Obama’s campaign team if economic conditions don’t drastically improve for millions of people.

The solution most certainly isn’t giving the Oval Office back to someone who is going to go even further to the right than what we have, but when conditions on the ground suck, incumbents get the blame, whether they deserve it or not. If unemployment is still over 8% next November, I fear that President Obama may get the boot. And then things are really going to suck.

Comment #95: DTGslu2K  on  04/26  at  07:17 PM

they are Classics without mentioning Moby Dick?

A far shorter, and better work to read would be “Bartleby, the Scrivner”.

scrumby, were you refering to Gordon R, not Emily the poetess?

 

 

Comment #96: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  04/26  at  07:18 PM

Un Chien Andalou II: Twin Blade Action!  Sponsored by Gillette.

Comment #97: Iam138  on  04/26  at  07:51 PM

“catgirl, i have never read the wheel of time series.  i definitely need to check it out.”

As someone who recently gave up half the way through the first book, it seems only fair to warn you that it’s like 12,000 pages long.

Comment #98: preying mantis  on  04/26  at  08:00 PM

I’m with you on Pawlenty, Amanda. He’s the Republican John Kerry—inoffensive enough to win by default in a comically weak primary field, but too damn boring and uncharismatic to win the general.

Barbour not running, in addition to Thune giving the election a pass, is a bad, bad sign for the GOP. If Daniels doesn’t run, either, all the canaries in the coal mine have dropped. That will be the final sign that the Republican country club establishment, at least, has given up on winning the White House in 2012.

The primary debates should be a riot, though. We already have not one, but two (TWO!) candidates who want to repeal child labor laws, and one of the same candidates wants to return to the fucking gold standard.

Comment #99: Ben D.  on  04/26  at  08:16 PM

Pawlenty’s a strong possibility


Well he….zzzzz….zzzz…..uh what? Sorry, must have dozed off there for a seconds from sheer boredom.

Again, John Kerry of the right.

Comment #100: Ben D.  on  04/26  at  08:18 PM

RE: Wheel of Time-

Great characters, complicated interconnect story-arches, amazing world building.  SLLLLLLLLOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWW.  I think somewhere around the fourth book he picked up he could make more money if he wrote more books, so he stretched out the series.  In one of the books (8?) it’s near 900 pages and the main protagonist travels all of 5 miles.

Comment #101: Antigone  on  04/26  at  08:26 PM

i’ve never seen the movie (shawshank), but all the trailers & clips shown on tv and elsewhere made me feel as though i had been subjected to it. oddly, they’ve never made me want to run out and rent the dvd, or stay up and watch it on HBO.

go figure.

Comment #102: cpinva  on  04/26  at  08:34 PM

Being a musician I see the principle “mediocrity rules” in action continually.

Comment #103: tesseral  on  04/26  at  08:36 PM

Hi! Ebert didn’t actually write this post, which is good, because it is in the style of a theoretical post-stroke Ebert. Not that the correspondent who actually wrote it is an idiot, it’s just that Ebert is a very good writer and this post doesn’t meet his usual standard. At all. Plus, if you follow the link you’ll see that a fella named Gerardo Valero actually wrote it. Engage!

Comment #104: CslashW  on  04/26  at  08:41 PM

“Emily” being a popular boy’s name of the era.

Arg..Firefox makes me lazy. But on that note you can be taught to much Emily Dickinson too.

The “but to understand how we got to where we are” is little more than sentimental claptrap often used to promote a narrow western literary tradition that is largely Anglo-centric and male.  Ignorance is thinking that the Tale of Genji is going to be less applicable to a room of high schoolers reading Japanese manga in their spare time.

Comment #105: scrumby  on  04/26  at  08:48 PM

Well he….zzzzz….zzzz…..uh what? Sorry, must have dozed off there for a seconds from sheer boredom.

Again, John Kerry of the right.

As for personalities, I agree completely, but John Kerry didn’t have a sky high unemployment rate with which to bludgeon his opponent.

If Pawlenty is the GOP nominee, Obama’s not going to be running against Pawlenty, he’s going to be running against his own economic numbers. If they tangibly improve and the improvement is felt in the lives of Jane and Joe Mushymiddle, he gets a second term. If they don’t, it’s very likely that he doesn’t. As evidenced by the 2010 midterms, Americans have very short-term memories and have no problem putting the old clowns back into power if they feel the incumbents haven’t gotten the job done, even if it was the old clowns who got us into this mess to begin with.

It ain’t Obama’s fault that he got the job at the worst possible time, but he’s gonna get held responsible for wherever we’re at economically 18 months from now, good or bad. Many of those who assume 2012 is gonna be a cakewalk are the ones who one year ago laughed at the idea that John Boehner would be the Speaker of the House today. Don’t take anything for granted.

If the economy improves, Obama will most likely get re-elected. If it doesn’t, he very likely won’t. As Carville said, “It’s the economy, stupid.” That Rand Freaking Paul is a U.S. Senator is proof positive of that undeniable truth.

Comment #106: DTGslu2K  on  04/26  at  08:50 PM

The electorate of 2010 was an entirely different one from 2008. The 2012 electorate will look more like 2008. We’re talking about 60-65% turnout vs. 30% turnout. Stick with apples-to-apples.

, Obama’s not going to be running against Pawlenty,

Assuming the economy doesn’t get better at all, that depends on how good his campaign will be.

I’d go further with the Bush in ‘04 analogy. Bush wasn’t wildly popular in 2004 (45% approval on a bad day, 50% on a good day) but Karl Rove successfully made the election all about John Kerry instead of the unfolding debacle in Iraq, the blown Clinton surplus, healthcare, and the complete lack of an Afghanistan strategy.  Instead it was John Kerry’s Vietnam protests, and that he looks too “French”, he’s boring, and he’s from MASSACHUSETTS donchaknow!

If it’s Romney, he has an advantage in that the more people see Romney, the less they like him. That was certainly true in the GOP primary in ‘08. He’s overly slick, phony, and says whatever is necessary to benefit him politically. If Pawlenty is Kerry Romney is Tom Dewey, “the little man on the wedding cake” (and just as plastic).

But you’ll get no argument from me that if the economy doesn’t improve he has a much tougher road.

Comment #107: Ben D.  on  04/26  at  09:05 PM

“The “but to understand how we got to where we are” is little more than sentimental claptrap often used to promote a narrow western literary tradition that is largely Anglo-centric and male.”

Not really.  Understanding the evolution of literature and culture is an important part of understanding current incarnations of literature and culture.  It’s just that that’s not really what’s happening in most high school lit classes, where you’re getting at best a cursory run-down of social issues of the time and the hundred years of literary trends that just got skipped over because there wasn’t time to fit it in.  I mean, the oft-mocked college courses teaching Twilight tend to be teaching the history of the vampire myth in western culture or “women’s literature” in America.  It gets super-hard to be all “Kids these days *grumble grumble* we’re all going to hell” once you know that women have been writing comforting trash for young teen girls for three or four hundred years without the handbasket landing there yet or “What has African-American culture produced beyond Fergie and hip hop?” when you’ve gotten an overview of everything from Phillis Wheatley to Langston Hughes to Maya Angelou along with the dominant culture their accomplishments were in spite of.  There’s a reason conservatives tend to dislike liberal arts education.

Comment #108: preying mantis  on  04/26  at  09:17 PM

A far shorter, and better work to read would be “Bartleby, the Scrivner”.

Nah, I’d prefer not to.

Comment #109: Gracchus.  on  04/26  at  09:29 PM

Certain works were thought to be “important” in their day and no longer are, now. Catcher in the Rye appealed to a certain generation of high school English teachers who were convinced that it would speak to generations of students many years removed from it. I am convinced that in a few decades, Catcher in the Rye will be pretty much forgotten but that students will study Salinger’s short stories.

Comment #110: Tyro  on  04/26  at  10:22 PM

Forrest Gump the movie was a huge disappointment to me, as I’d read the book a few years before.  The book was hilarious.

Comment #111: DonnaDiva  on  04/26  at  11:05 PM

I do have to point out that Ebert didn’t write that article, he just posted it. One of his foreign correspondents wrote it (Gerardo Valero in Mexico City).

Comment #112: Bruce from Missouri  on  04/27  at  12:42 AM

Heh—I’m always game for a good Forrest Gump pile-on.  It’s 3 hours of hippie-punching married to a screamingly obvious Tom Hanks Oscar vehicle.

The praise heaped on Forrest Gump was nauseating enough at the time, but man alive…just try watching it now.  Talk about a film that doesn’t hold up. 

 

Comment #113: Sour Kraut  on  04/27  at  01:07 AM

From what I remember of Catcher in the Rye, there were two reactions to it.  One was “I like this, I can identify with this guy!” and the other was “I hate this, this character is exactly like that douchebag over there.”

Comment #114: Toitle  on  04/27  at  03:21 AM

i guess i may be too late in this game to make any difference, but shawshank actually has three significant female characters, one of whom is on screen.

the most obvious is the woman on the poster. yes, she’s just a poster, but in a way, that’s actually the point. she isn’t a person so much as a symbol of deception. i could talk about how the thing she hides is a dark hole through which smelly redemption lies, but not today.

the second is andy’s wife, whom he loves but is unfaithful. again, a symbol of deception.

the third is the wife of the contractor who appealed to the warden not to bankrupt him with cheap prison labor. i cannot believe it was an accident for the warden to stick his fingers in a warm pie and thank the man’s wife. but here, the woman isn’t used as a symbol of women, but of the oppressive power of the warden, who has complete control over his friend’s business, life, and even his wife.

Comment #115: cj  on  04/27  at  07:23 AM

I liked Shawshank so much, when my mom asked what DVDs I might like, I asked for it.

And lo, I was finally able to see the first twenty minutes of the movie!!  There was much rejoicing!!  (This is what happens when a movie is always on TV—you come in a half hour in but keep watching.)

I was thinking about my movie collection and what movies have female characters.  Most (maybe all) do, but a lot end up being window dressing or else barely important to the plot.  Sometimes there’s a main female character, but she’s often the only one apart from speaking extras.  A lot of these movies are really good movies that I like (which is why I own them, duh), but I do get tired of being forced to try to identify with The Woman or Some Guy.  It’s the same thinking as putting Sarah Palin on the ballot:  Women will identify with The Woman because she’s the only woman in the film, and women will vote for Sarah Palin’s ticket because she’s a woman too!  Women don’t need characters or competence or anything!  Just vaginas!  Hurray!!

Comment #116: BonAppetit  on  04/27  at  08:03 AM

I’d whine at Amanda for missing that Ebert didn’t write the post, but it doesn’t seem fair when a dozen or so people showed up to not read what she wrote and bay at the moon about how movies with all male casts (I thought Justin Long was funny in “Zach and Miri Make a Porno”) are too good lady!!!!!!!

I think another factor in the extra love for Shawshank (I watched it in the theater, cause I was crazy for anything Stephen King as a teen) is that it wasn’t wildly popular at the time it was released and it gave a lot of people the thrill of sorta discovering something on their own. Even though that something was a throughly mainstream Hollywood movie. People were able to more plausibly imagine they’d discovered this on their own, rather than through advertising hype.

It was the favorite movie of a friend of mine’s dad, who I’m pretty sure only liked one other movie, “Slapshot.” Not a bad list, really.

Comment #117: witless chum  on  04/27  at  08:48 AM

@Toitle, I was definitely a kid that identified with Catcher in the Rye. Growing up in the Soviet Union on the brink of collapse, all that stuff about “phonies” sure hit home. I still have the old Soviet copy - it’s in English, but with an unintentionally hilarious, propaganda-filled preface in Russian that tells the reader that the only correct way to interpret the book is as an indictment of American society and capitalism. Not a book I go back to, but it was pretty important to 13-year old me and to my friends and for entirely different reasons than it is championed for here. And no, we did not interpret it as an indictment of capitalism. smile

Comment #118: elena  on  04/27  at  08:52 AM

Stubborn Fellow @63: I beleive the 12 angry men has been remade with a mixed gender cast (at least as a play).  It works fine that way.  It was set and even filmed at a time when it was still unusual (and in some places unheard of) for women to serve on juries.

Comment #119: helen w. h.  on  04/27  at  08:53 AM

MikeEss@84:
Star Trek classic had at least two alien species (one sentient) that I can think of off the top of my head that were not at all humanoid.  They were very limited by the amount of special effects they could afford.  The cartoon version in the 70s did a much better job than any of the live shot shows.
Alien Nation was a comentary on the assimilation of the Vietnamese and Laosian influx to CA in the mid to late 70s, so was set there purposefully.  Doing so was not really playing it safe.  It was supposed to bring up the way people treat people, just as District 9 did for anyone who wasn’t oblivious (though conservatives, yeah, by default).

Comment #120: helen w. h.  on  04/27  at  09:09 AM

Yamara @ 85: Word regarding the end of LotR.  I felt leaving out that chapter ruined the whole thing - if you don’t get the no hero in ones own home, you don’t get a major theme to the series (including the Hobbit, which I thought much more boring and dry, and never could really get into).
Hated Moby Dick and read a novel instead (Buddy something?).
Agree with Scumby re The Cannon and manga reading teens.
preying mantis @108: Langston Hughes is worth reading; Twilight is not.  You want young girls lit, go with Anne of Green Gables and such, at least the grammar is not completely butchered (along with any consistency of plot).
Tyro @110: I really hope you are right about Salinger.  Some of his stories are actually pretty good, even decades later.

Comment #121: helen w. h.  on  04/27  at  09:30 AM

It was Billy Budd, Helen.

Comment #122: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  04/27  at  09:48 AM

chareth @49:

but sometimes the weight of All Dudes All The Time in Serious Literature is really crushing, especially to a young reader.

Have you seen Maureen Johnson’s comments on this? My favorite parts are:

When I was in college, I remember hearing the story of Dorothy Parker typing out the words, “Please god, let me write like a man.” Even if I didn’t know my own reading bias, I understood at once, instinctively. It was the way to legitimacy. Men wrote of Big Things that Mattered. Sure, some of them were endlessly introspective. Yes, the big things that mattered were often penises. Also, sex. Also sex with penises. Also, girls, and how difficult and incomprehensible and unattainable we are for some sex with penises. It was like the penis was literally the magical eleventh finger that allowed you to write, and if I could just GROW ONE SOMEHOW, or imagine it into being, I would gain the abilities I so desired.

Comment #123: colorlessblue  on  04/27  at  10:21 AM

Re: Wheel of Time: there are awesome strong female characters, but I get the feel sometimes that they shine in spite of the author, and not because he wanted them to be awesome. I think the world-building is a lot more misogynist than even Genesis. The whole series is It’s All Women’s Fault.

SPOILERS, tl;dr:
The most you could say about Eve is that she was too dumb to not be fooled by the snake and just not eat the damn apple, but look at Lanfear, singlehandedly guilty of bringing Evil to the world. She was the most powerful female channeler in History, and wasn’t even close to as powerful as Lews Therin, the most powerful male channeler. And she wasn’t as professionally acomplished either, not as good a scientist, and a petty envious social climber, who Lews Therin dumped when he realized she loved his status and fame more than she loved him. She tore the fabric of reality trying to make a discovery to show him up and get him back. When she realized what she had done, she went willingly to the Dark Side of the Force, planning to use the power to force him into being her boytoy.
Then all the other women were too cautious (i.e., cowards) and betrayed Lews Therin, his male companions, and the whole humanity, by refusing to go along with his plan to storm Mordor and imprison Sauron, so it’s women’s fault that the male half of the power got tainted in the fight and that all male channelers get crazy. And Lews Therin’s wife went into the Refrigerator, and the female cowards get rewarded for not helping by retaining their power and dominating the destroyed word.
In the “current times” characters, you have stuff like Moiraine, one of the good female characters, who’s bossy, manipulative, secretive, while Lan is just plain heroic and self-sacrificing. The most hated character in the fandom is Faile, the Nagging Wife, and the second is Elaida, the incompetent arrogant uppity ruler and StrawFeminist. The oppenly misogynist, religious fanatic, rapist leader of the Children of the Light? Not even one of the top 5 on the Hate List.
I love many of the female characters, especially Elaine, Ewgene and Nynaeve, but you have to go through thousands of pages of them snorting, sniffing, threatening to box some man’s ears, to get to a good moment.
And the female dominated countries are each worse than the other. In Elaine’s country, the women are bossy. In Leane’s country, they dominate the merchant class and use their bodies and their slutty ways to distract men out of negotiating. In that Southern country invaded by the Seanchan, women carry knives to poke their husbands with to keep them in line.
Not that I realized any of this when I was reading the books. I only saw it when I started reading The Gathering Storm and a friend asked me to explain what the series was about.

Comment #124: colorlessblue  on  04/27  at  10:50 AM

Setting aside how scary/controversial female characters are[1], and the question of whether the director/producers picked “Shawshank” (the novella) to develop specifically because it lacked women[2], a question/thought experiment for the crowd:
Given that the story is set in a men’s prison, how would you have worked women into the movie?

[1] An interesting thesis from Amanda, somewhat undermined by the scarcity of all-male films and the popularity of strong women characters…

[2] Unanswerable without input from Darabont and company, and still ambiguous/questionable even then (given the indeterminency of most human motivation).

Comment #125: drickard  on  04/27  at  02:58 PM

Given that the story is set in a men’s prison, how would you have worked women into the movie
Comment #125: drickard on 04/27 at 02:58 PM

Why would we?

The thesis isn’t “this would be better with women in it.”  The thesis is “this is considered a candidate for best movie ever because there are no women in it.”

[1] An interesting thesis from Amanda, somewhat undermined by the scarcity of all-male films and the popularity of strong women characters…

Proving Tannen’s observation that participation over 30 percent by women is considered “overwhelming” in pretty much any context outside of lactation and washing dishes.

and the question of whether the director/producers picked “Shawshank” (the novella) to develop specifically because it lacked women[2],

Amanda never claimed this.  Dumbass.

Comment #126: oldfeminist  on  04/27  at  03:51 PM

Sadly I find myself pulled out of the argument (which is a good one and probably has a lot to it*) by the counter-example.

Tarantino is an unmitigated hack. His movies are “safe films” for the disaffected youth set. Specifically designed to appeal to movie geek’s nostalgia for better movies, soundtracks, and moments by plagiarizing them in their entireties (and yes, he’s a blatant plagiarist) and generally playing things safe in an indy style (for all the so-called “notable” female characters, they are often reduced to stereotypical roles more often than not, see the Bride being essentially a stereotypical hysteric who murders because of the power of BABIEZZ!)

And Pulp Fiction was pretty much unwatchable, not because of the violence or its sheer artistyness, but because outside of its shuffled editing, it had no real ideas other than juvenile shock moments mostly taken from the history of 70s exploitation cinema.

But that rant aside, I think your argument has merit.

Offensive female inclusion is pretty much unbearable by anyone with the slightest respect for women and good female inclusion and female-based stories tend to get sniped on rating systems like imdb by men who find such depictions unacceptably political and “feminazi-esque”.

So a great work like the original Stepford Wives is not going to be as high as it would be.

Sadly though, I think its unfortunate. Shawshank is a wonderful movie, absolutely well crafted, with a compelling story, and everyone remembers liking it if not loving it, but it doesn’t really carry. I still resonate with Blazing Saddles, Carrie, Stepford Wives, Full Metal Jacket, Network, 12 Angry Men, because they carried powerful social critiques and messages along with absolutely fantastic cinema, whereas Shawshank is difficult to full remember what it was about, much less able to recount most of the big scenes or moments like I can the others.

And I think you’re right that that extra risk can be the difference between an incredible film and a transcendent one, even if the transcendent one never gets due credit.

Comment #127: Cerberus  on  04/27  at  04:10 PM

In my mind it’s all about the canon.

Shawshank is probably the most modern movie I feel to have truly done a good job of making its way into the traditional canon. The problem is that we still see the canon as being high art when in a lot of cases it’s little more than warmed over pulp culture. See The Godfather as an example, I think. Yes. I’m saying the Godfather is pulp culture. Because it is. It’s well done pulp culture ‘tho! Note. I think Shawshank is a good movie as well. Best of all time? Far from it. I’d probably give the nod to Kill Bill, to be honest.

But the fact that pretty much everything modern is denied entry into the “canon” really reveals the issue to it. It’s traditionalist.  Which is why you see movies with a strong patriarchal bent have an easier time making it into the canon.

Comment #128: Karmakin  on  04/27  at  04:11 PM

Addendum to self @127 just to head off responses of “he isn’t safe, because he is violent.”

Violence in American culture is safe. We love violence and in the tradition of exploitation cinema, which is the source of most of his plagiarism, his works are downright kindergarten in the level of gore and violent excess they depict.

We will support any type of graphic violence and cursing as a group, because it doesn’t really challenge us on our real discomfort levels and allows us the endorphin rush of being safely “squicked out”, but in a way that makes it an easy to overcome “endurance test” of one’s jadedness that makes one feel accomplished for “making it through hard scenes”. This was the appeal of most exploitation cinema (aside from the excuse to show women being tortured or otherwise naked) and is something Tarantino as a fan has learned from.

Comment #129: Cerberus  on  04/27  at  04:17 PM

“see the Bride being essentially a stereotypical hysteric who murders because of the power of BABIEZZ!”

And here I thought she was murdering because that’s generally how murderers respond to people who kill their lovers, try to kill them, and kill/steal their children.  Or was I hallucinating the part where the character was an assassin?  I mean, yes, you can make a pretty strong case for stereotypical—the dead family->revenge spree is practically its own genre by now—but it is pretty clearly established that “murder-happy” is the default setting for everyone involved.

Comment #130: preying mantis  on  04/27  at  04:26 PM

And now I really want to see a film that has the ultraviolent protagonist react to the loss of their family by becoming a talk-therapist or something. “My wife and son were killed in a carjacking gone wrong! I will mourn their deaths by becoming a social justice advocate bent on reducing violent street crime by reducing poverty and institutional discrimination!  Raaaar!”

Comment #131: preying mantis  on  04/27  at  04:43 PM

preying mantis @130

Well there was the fact that the only remotely interesting character in the movie was O-Ren Ishii. The fact that the Babiezz motivation was thrown out the window when the “man” was on set and suddenly this motivation which was totally strong enough to have her dispatch without a single thought all the other female assassins (who were only chicks, so who cares) for simply working for the main bad guy, flees into the wildnerness and she politely sits and listens to his pseudo-philosophical bullshit and treating him like an okay guy.

Drastically throwing out character motivations, because you want to insert inaccurate comics criticism? Edgy.

...Actually, I’m just bitter on Tarantino in general because he seems to get a lot of unearned street cred from my generation without actually providing anything even remotely deserving of said cred. I’d rather credit go to directors like Jamie Babbitt who actually do provide radical new takedowns of oft-ignored subjects, than someone who found a way to make plagiarism arty.

preying mantis @131

Damn, now I want to see that too.

Actually…have I seen that? I keep on recalling a film about I think a black man who tries to save his street through social action after the violence ripped his family apart. It ending with the street just killing him instead.

Might just be in my head.

Anyways, would pay to see that movie. It’d be a great chance for a character actor, because it’d be someone burning with unrestrained rage and the slightest edge that says they will not stop until things are just and they might just choose violence if the system decided to fuck with them.

Like a cross between John Q and Milk.

Comment #132: Cerberus  on  04/27  at  05:00 PM

Heh, a friend in college off-handedly referred to ‘Shawshank’ as “a chick flick for guys” in a campus newspaper article. Boy, did she catch flack from the dudebros.
Comment #69: Shiny on 04/26 at 04:16 PM

I categorize movies that involve a lot of male posturing, whether violent or “dignified,” as testicular dramas.

Comment #133: oldfeminist  on  04/27  at  07:45 PM

Just wanted to say, I think the Pawlenty analysis is dead on. He’s the Generic White Male that Romney wants to be. And Generic White Males are very popular among Republicans. (And Democrats, to be fair. Probably better just to say they’re popular among Americans.)

Comment #134: SS451  on  04/28  at  01:32 AM

DA @ 122 - I was blocking.  Though it wasn’t nearly so bad as Moby Dick.

Comment #135: helen w. h.  on  04/28  at  08:31 AM

You reminded me of some of the malaprops Mother Avenger would come up with, helen, although she would be more withering in her criticism than anyone this side of Edmund Wilson, the infamous writer and critic.  grin

Comment #136: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  04/28  at  09:23 AM

I am flattered, DA.

Comment #137: helen w. h.  on  04/29  at  09:24 AM
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