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Next entry: Tina Fey is too funny Previous entry: Scrubbing Bubbles scrub problems right down the drain

The too little too late debate review post

Update:  I want to include an insight from keshmeshi in comments.  I think that McCain did intend to snub Obama with his refusal to speak to him or look at him.  However, because Obama kept looking steadily at McCain and calling him by his name, it ended up making Obama look dominant and McCain look afraid.  Snubbing is a specific maneuver, and not appropriate to this situation.  In this case, it looked like a game of chicken that Obama won without blinking. 

Since I missed the debate Friday night due to rocknrollerz duty, I stayed in last night and watched a downloaded version on the computer.  I’m joining the chorus calling Obama the clear winner, and as far as I know, we’re going into the Sunday talk-a-thon with the mainstream media mostly on the side of reality, though there’s plenty of people acting surprised that Obama isn’t stupid.  Recently, in fact, a number of Villagers have come to the realization that McCain didn’t really love them, but was just using them, so they’ve grown critical of him and his audacious lying.  But I have no illusions that they won’t slide back into carrying his water.  If they continue to be honest about Obama’s win, good for them, but I’m not going to let myself get crushed if they start calling it for McCain once they realize that Obama’s pulling out way ahead. 

Lehrer’s opening gambit of asking the same fucking question about the bailout many times over annoyed me.  I’m sure he felt like he seemed “tough” because he was “catching” them unable to speak off-the-cuff, but in reality, he was putting both candidates in an untenable situation.  Because there’s no way really to know what you’re going to do over 3 months from now, when things are happening so rapidly.  And pretending otherwise would be bullshitting.  Given the circumstances, I can’t blame either candidate for trotting out economic boilerplate speeches, because the only choices you have are to bullshit or highlight your priorities.  Unsurprisingly, McCain was the one who finally bit, and started lying his ass off to get out of the question with his talk about a “spending freeze”, which has been the source of merriment.


I don’t know about the other networks, but CNN had a little meter at the bottom recording audience reactions to candidate answers, and from watching that thing, it was obvious that Obama was hitting it out of the ballpark.  What amused me the most was that when McCain would try to dodge a question by going off on a sentimental speech, the audience really hated that.  Obama didn’t get dinged nearly as hard, probably because his emotional appeals were brief and cutting.  The bracelet exchange was a perfect example—-McCain got into a long story about a dead soldier’s mother wanting to win Iraq so her son didn’t die in vain, and Obama countered with his bracelet from a mother who simply didn’t want any more mothers to be in her position.  Audience: Fuck you, McCain.  Good point, Obama.  At least according to the meter.  McCain was, after all, making the “throw good money after bad” argument, which probably sounds even more hollow during an economic crisis when people are really learning to cut their losses. 

There were a couple of times that I was reminded that McCain, while awful, might not be as complete a trainwreck as Bush, especially when McCain mocked Bush’s praise for Putin’s soul.  During the whole discussion of the Russian conflict, in fact, McCain came across as Not Awful, and it wasn’t just that he was talking sense.  It was also that he wasn’t, possibly for the only time during the debate, leaning on a bunch of lies,  Free to be honest and direct, he showed a glimmer of Not Awfulness.  But soon that was over. 

Now, onto the startling difference between the two candidates’ demeanor, with Obama coming across as cool and confident, and McCain seeming bitter.  And yes, I watched it after reading about how McCain didn’t seem to look at Obama once, and he really didn’t.  Maybe towards him a little, but then backed off, unwilling to meet his eyes.  I don’t think his behavior was an accident or just a result of his own personal issues with Obama.  I think it was a conscious decision by his campaign.  It was an attempt to reinforce the overall message, which is, “Can you believe they let this guy run for President?”, a campaign strategy that is clever insofar as it’s race-baiting for people who are hungry for that, but can also be read in a more mundane way, with McCain pretending to be an incumbent facing a two-bit challenger.  Everything that McCain has done has been to send the loud signal that he thinks so little of Obama that he’s offended that Obama has been allowed to get this far, as if there should have been some gatekeeper keeping him and the rabble out.  The attempt to avoid the debate was McCain’s way of saying, “Appearing in public with that pipsqueak is a waste of my time.”  McCain’s well-rehearsed attack lines about how Obama doesn’t understand or is naive (read: he’s stupid) fed the same narrative.  The insta-ad is part of the same story, that it’s just appalling that Obama has gotten this far.  As the ad example at the link shows, McCain is taking Clinton’s narrative and amplifying it—-this office is my birthright, and this pipsqueak is out of line. 

I’m sure that this tactic sells really well to people who come to campaign events, who are already up to their necks in right wing bitterness about a thwarted sense of entitlement, the sort of people who rant about the evils of affirmative action non-stop even if they’ve never seen nor experienced a bona fide example of that policy in action.  But to a larger audience, it was tone deaf.  The idea that Obama is an interloper is easily disproved by his ease in a situation that 99.9% of us would be nervous in, and his intelligence disproves the insinuations about his mental capacities.  The little audience meter was fascinating for this reason.  It really seemed that the more McCain hammered at Obama for being naive or stupid or inexperienced, the audience turned on McCain.  We could expect that from Democrats, of course, but independents were right there with them, with only Republicans still hanging in for McCain, as could be expected.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 01:18 PM • (50) Comments

I thought Obama did well, but wanted to see Obama attack more. In particular, I would like to see Obama attack McCain’s self-invented “Maverick” label. I could be wrong, but it seems to me this label is actually a weak spot for McCain. It is certainly created of little more than vanity.

Comment #1: atheist  on  09/28  at  01:35 PM

I know we all would love to see Obama attack more, but we have to understand that events like the debate are not aimed at us, they’re aimed at the low-information “gut feeling” voters. And it’s crystal clear from their reactions that they really liked Obama sticking to his usual chilled-out persona. And are they so wrong about that? Don’t we need calm, level-headed leadership right now?

Surrogates and ads are better vehicles for attacks, and they’ve been using them pretty well.

Comment #2: Steve LaBonne  on  09/28  at  01:44 PM

Steve

Maybe. I kinda think that, there are ways he could ‘attack’ while still sounding chill.

Comment #3: atheist  on  09/28  at  01:51 PM

Well, in another year I might well agree with you. But this year a lot of people, including a lot of undecideds, are really scared. They have no patience for the usual political back-and-forth. They want a candidate who instead will look them in the eye and tell them what he’s going to do to help them. If you go over to fivethirtyeight and look at Nate Silver’s analysis of the post-debate pols, you’ll see that Obama pretty much hit a home run on that, and McCain struck out (not) looking.

Comment #4: Steve LaBonne  on  09/28  at  01:59 PM

Personally, I could have gone for more Obama attacks, too.  My favorite was Obama’s line about McCain singing about Pakistan.  But then, I have to remember that I thought Gore wiped out Bush in 2000 in the first debate, but then the coverage was all about Gore’s sighing, and his attitude about letting Bush be on the same stage with him.  In that sense, the people who did not like Gore bullying Bush (and are not partisan Republicans) will probably side with Obama in this one due to McCain’s apparent attitude.

Comment #5: James G  on  09/28  at  02:07 PM

Steve

Sure, the eye thing is significant. I’m talking about attacking. Seems to me that nothing works better with the American public, in any situation

Comment #6: atheist  on  09/28  at  02:07 PM

A spending freeze during a recession is such a good idea.  No fucking shit McCain is weak on the economy.

And I don’t agree that McCain was just showing contempt.  I think he was intimidated and tried to dress up his intimidation as contempt.  When they shook hands at the end of the debate, McCain briefly looked at Obama and then immediately looked away.  That’s a sign of fear not contemptuous confidence.

Comment #7: keshmeshi  on  09/28  at  02:10 PM

I think Obama knows he has the lead—especially with the gargantuan amount of money he’s put into a ground game managed by very competent people—and he’s happy enough to run out the clock on McCain.  That’s why we’re not going to see a lot of attacks out of him. 

I’ll be content if Joe Biden plays it safe too in the VP debate.  Just answer the questions in your knowledgeable confident Biden way, and the contrast with Sarah Palin, who doesn’t have a clue what she’s doing, will be obvious to everyone.  We’re ahead, and I don’t want to risk the story of the debate being some gaffed up attack.

Comment #8: Neil the Ethical Werewolf  on  09/28  at  02:18 PM

Lehrer was driving me nuts with that bailout question. Did he really think he could get a straight answer to a question that was basically “What block of possible voters are you going to f*ck”??  Move on, dude, it’s not gonna happen.

Comment #9: Bruce from Missouri  on  09/28  at  02:56 PM

Atheist, if he started to attack, the MSM would circle the wagons to defend Grandpa Simpson from the scary black man.  Same story with Biden and Palin.  Biden better be excruciatingly respectful and nice to her.  The merest glimmer of contempt for her intelligence, no matter how well deserved, will make him toast.

Comment #10: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/28  at  03:23 PM

The big thing that bugged me about that Lehrer bailout question is that we actually stand a pretty good chance of making a profit off of the bailout.  We’re holding all the cards here—banks are in serious danger of collapse, there’s nobody else big and stable enough to lend to them, and we can basically dictate terms. 

If the AIG bailout is any guide, this could be awesome.  We’re loaning out money to AIG at 11% interest and getting enough stock to own 80% of the company.  If AIG doesn’t take all the $85 billion in loans, it looks like we still get 8.5% on the unused portion.  As long as AIG doesn’t go under despite our bailout, we end up with hefty interest payments and a gigantic amount of stock.  Of course, if AIG still goes under, we’re screwed.  But assuming that the crisis passes and the stock rises, we do really well. 

It looks like Pelosi, Reid, Frank, and Dodd stood their ground, and the new bailout deal has congressional oversight, bank stock for taxpayers, mortgage renegotiation for homeowners, and limits on CEO pay.  The House GOP will hopefully sign on because their mortgage insurance program is in there, though even Paulson knows that it’s total bullshit and probably won’t put serious effort into it. 

(I actually wonder if we should’ve left the CEO pay limits out, to encourage CEOs to corruptly participate in the program, hand their companies over to the government, and screw their existing shareholders.  But whoever is on Team Deficit Reduction isn’t that Machiavellian.)

Comment #11: Neil the Ethical Werewolf  on  09/28  at  03:26 PM

The attempt to avoid the debate was McCain’s way of saying, “Appearing in public with that pipsqueak is a waste of my time.” McCain’s well-rehearsed attack lines about how Obama doesn’t understand or is naive (read: he’s stupid) fed the same narrative.  The insta-ad is part of the same story, that it’s just appalling that Obama has gotten this far.  As the ad example at the link shows, McCain is taking Clinton’s narrative and amplifying it—-this office is my birthright, and this pipsqueak is out of line.

I think you hit the nail on the head, and you’re not the only one who caught that.  From the AP via MSNBC:

Campaign manager David Plouffe held a conference call with reporters where he called McCain’s efforts to paint Obama as inexperienced on foreign affairs “sophomoric.”

Comment #12: ol cranky  on  09/28  at  03:32 PM

Good point, kesh.  I’m gonna steal that insight and put it in the post.

Comment #13: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/28  at  03:38 PM

After several days of rage from activists regarding a provision in the bailout bill that would send some of the profits from the sale of distressed assets the goverment buys into an affordable housing trust fund, congressional negotiators have removed section 105(d) of the bailout proposal, according to aides on both side.

ACORN, a Democratic ally, was not specifically directed any funds in the previous proposal, but money that went to state and local governments could then have been divvied out to the organization, which the GOP said was a deal breaker.

Fevered opposition to the provision had become a viral sensation.

A small victory for those who oppose the ethically challenged.

Comment #14: Eugene Debs  on  09/28  at  03:52 PM

From what I’ve read, the House Republicans are coming on board having almost entirely capitulated.  The only sop given them is that their “let’s fund the insurance instead!” plan is tacked on as a possible “alternative”, to be decided by the next Administration.  But the meat is still what the Bush Admin and the Democrats and the Senate Republicans have hammered out among themselves. 

(I think enough financial people yelled in the House Repubs ears that if something didn’t get put together this weekend we would be looking at 1000+ drop in the stock market on Monday….which would have been totally hung around their necks.  Repubs may want to be “fiscally conservative” (whatever THAT means at present) but they also know there is no way any re-election campaign could survive that.)

Comment #15: grumpy realist  on  09/28  at  04:01 PM

“Repubs may want to be “fiscally conservative” (whatever THAT means at present)...”

Simple answer: 
“Fiscally Conservative” = Whatever Republicans do while spending our money = Whatever gets Republicans the most campaign funds…

Comment #16: MikeEss  on  09/28  at  04:45 PM

Republicans have not believed in fiscal conservatism for the past thirty years, at least.

Comment #17: atheist  on  09/28  at  04:49 PM

Neil, we are not going to be making money off the bailout.

Full-stop

We.Are.Not.Going.To.Make.Money

We do need to do a bailout, but it is only an attempt, not even garaunteed, but an attempt at staving off disintegration of the world’s credit system.  We’re paying $700 billion + in hopes that we won’t have 2% a year contractions in GDP for several years…

Comment #18: shah8  on  09/28  at  04:50 PM

Shah8, we’ve made money off bailouts before.  We did during the Depression, and we made $350 million when we bailed out Chrysler in the 1980s.  The AIG bailout terms look great for the treasury.  So why won’t this work?

Comment #19: Neil the Ethical Werewolf  on  09/28  at  05:12 PM

I think that McCain did intend to snub Obama with his refusal to speak to him or look at him.  However, because Obama kept looking steadily at McCain and calling him by his name, it ended up making Obama look dominant and McCain look afraid.

And, ironically, turned the “Obama is weak” argument against them.  McCain’s contempt allowed Obama to be dominant without Obama coming across as the The Scary Black Dude. 

I read that during the White House meeting orchestrated by the McCain campaign, Obama humiliated McCain by repeatedly asking him how he felt about the bailout—a position that McCain was loathed to take a definitive stand on at the risk of alienating fellow Republicans who sought distance from Bush and Paulsen.  I don’t know if McCain’s contempt and bitterness towards Obama during the debate was a tactical move by the campaign, but I would not be surprised if it was just McCain’s intemperate hotheadedness getting the best of him as a result of the White House debacle.

After besting McCain at the meeting, Obama coming to the debate and being congenial and friendly probably got under McCain’s skin and royally pissed him off.  It was, IMHO, Obama’s masterstroke.

Comment #20: Cat Ion  on  09/28  at  05:41 PM

Yeah, Obama really rocked at the WH meeting, Cat Ion.  The story I hear is that after asking McCain about his position and getting no response, Obama started asking Paulson what he thought of the House GOP proposal.  Paulson, who knows that the House GOP proposal is bullshit, had to come out and say that himself in front of House Republicans.

Comment #21: Neil the Ethical Werewolf  on  09/28  at  05:44 PM

McCain not looking at Obama is an extension of his foreign policy. He would ignore any world leaders he happens to disagree with, why wouldn’t he ignore politicians he happens to disagree with.

Comment #22: karl  on  09/28  at  06:00 PM

Yes, Neil, and it only further demonstrates Obama’s indomitable badassedness.

One of the reasons I supported Obama in the primaries was that I always thought Obama had an extremely high emotional IQ which endows him with superior empathy and diplomatic skills and serves him well in tricky situations like the White House meeting.  Interestingly, these skills are often derided as feminine and unmanly which has been the underpinning of the whole “Obama is weak” line of attack.  It’s really nice to see those skills used as an effective political weapon.

Comment #23: Cat Ion  on  09/28  at  06:02 PM

During and immediately after the debates, I also felt that Obama didn’t attack nearly enough, although I thought he did a fairly good job. But Steve’s comments definitely make a lot of sense. Obama came off as cool and collected and didn’t put off undecided voters by being mean or nasty.

McCain, on the other hand, with his clenched teeth and his sighing, looked cranky and frazzled. Remember when he struggled to say Amadenijad’s name? (Don’t know if I’m spelling that right.) He said it three or four times but the last time he said it he was visibly frustrated. Does anyone remember that part?

Comment #24: Jenny Dreadful  on  09/28  at  06:13 PM

Oh, Here it is.

Comment #25: Jenny Dreadful  on  09/28  at  06:15 PM

Yeah, I remember that part, Jenny.

I also remember Obama graciously and quietly saying “that’s a tough one”.  Not once was McCain gracious to Obama during the debate.  The contrast was quite striking.

Comment #26: Cat Ion  on  09/28  at  06:15 PM

Shah8, Texas actually went through a mini version of this crisis in the 80s, and a lot of people who bought up devalued assets did very well by themselves. There’s no reason to think the government couldn’t also do well.  Anyway, it’s irrelevant.  The choice should be trying to recoup our investments or not, and so obviously even if the first fails, it’s better than not trying.

Interestingly, my mom reminded me that the reason that Texas has been shielded to a small degree is that there was an asston of regulation passed after the S&L;meltdown back then to keep Texans from engaging in “creative financing”.  You would have thought the Bush administration would have known better, since the Bush family got into the shit during the S&L;scandal, which was basically the same sort of thing on a smaller scale.  There was some minor deregulation when I was working at a bank—-I remember getting angry because the bank lobby had fliers asking people to vote to allow home equity lines of credit—-but it was minor because you couldn’t refinance with an ARM in Texas, and you couldn’t borrow more than 80% of the current equity you owned.

Comment #27: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/28  at  07:19 PM

I just thought it was striking how RUDE McCain was. He said, “What Senator Obama fails to understand…” about six or seven times. He was sneering the entire time, too, and just seemed on the verge of really losing his temper. Obama was cool, collected and very respectful toward McCain.

Comment #28: Jenny Dreadful  on  09/28  at  07:24 PM

Note to self: “conservatives. are. always. wrong. even if they say the same things as liberals.  Always. wrong.  No thought required.  The only thought required is thinking up new anti-slogans.  Do it - do it now!”

LOL - really, is this the best you can do?

Comment #29: siobhan  on  09/28  at  08:11 PM

By the way, McCain isn’t conservative.  Palin is.  McCain is moderate at best, and all he cares about is currying favor with the left - what a moron, because he ought to have realized a LONG time ago that that wasn’t possible.  Not with an “r” after your name.  Duh.  Too bad he has so few actual conservative principles.

Comment #30: siobhan  on  09/28  at  08:13 PM

I just thought it was striking how RUDE McCain was. He said, “What Senator Obama fails to understand…” about six or seven times. He was sneering the entire time, too, and just seemed on the verge of really losing his temper

Yes, but I think McCain’s supporters actually like that kind of thing. Anger, Ego and Bitterness.

Comment #31: atheist  on  09/28  at  08:19 PM

siobhan, he would’ve curried favor with the left a bit more successfully if he’d cast a pro-choice vote sometime in the last five years.  Instead, he’s racked up NARAL ratings of 0 all the way. 

Or if he’d voted for minimum wage increases.  Or if he wasn’t to Bush’s right on foreign policy. 

There’s a reason why the more intelligent conservatives (Ramesh Ponnuru, for example, who’s the smartest guy at NRO) supported him in the primary.  The idiots didn’t, but that’s why they’re idiots who spend their time trolling left-wing blogs.

Comment #32: Neil the Ethical Werewolf  on  09/28  at  08:41 PM

siobhan is a parody troll, right?

Comment #33: seeker6079  on  09/28  at  08:48 PM

I think so, though it’s hard to tell the difference between “stupid” and “pretending to be stupid”. But it’s not like the differences between the candidates are *that* hard to figure out, so it’s hard to believe that siobhan doesn’t see them and is still intelligent enough to operate a keyboard.

Comment #34: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/28  at  09:17 PM

I guess the thing that convinced me is that if you were reading Redstate during the primaries, you got a lot of noises harmonious with the ones siobhan was making.

Comment #35: Neil the Ethical Werewolf  on  09/28  at  09:29 PM

Only Fox the night of the debate said McCain won all the other 24/7 news channels said Obama won
Fox isn’t really a news channel more like winger entertainment TEEVEE

You know this pissed in their Wheaties! lol
http://www.newshounds.us/2008/09/27/foxnewscom_poll_shows_obama_won_debate.php

Comment #36: Nix  on  09/28  at  09:43 PM

No, we won’t make money.  I don’t think people are understanding the fundamental difference in what went on in the 1930s and with Chrysler.  There were real assets, with real values.  We made money off of LTCM as well, remember?  But all of these items had to do with overleverage on at least minimally good assets.  Assets that we can see and measure.

This crisis, is a crisis, at heart, of transparency.  We don’t actually know *what* the assets actually has as its capital base, and as such, we don’t actually know the prospects of recovery.  The preceding sentence is the one precipitating the crisis.  The banks do not fully understand who is liquid and who is not liquid because they don’t know who’s actually holding aces and who’s holding jokers. 

Just because they transfer the assets to the public holding does not mean that the government assayers will know any better, and I don’t think we have many if any people that can judge the quality of assets in question.  In the end, the shares of the debt tranches are effectively lottery tickets with limited upsides.  Same odds, but top prize is $500 top prize and matching 3 gets you your dollar back.  The last half a decade featured what was essentially a Ponzi scheme, featuring debt items that were wildly misvalued by the ratings agencies at the start and progressively got worse with many dubious quality debt being valued and sold.

And at the heart of the transparency crisis is the fact that there is a distinct awareness that most bank by now have debt vehicles that are worthless.  Started out worthless, ended up worthless kind of worthless, and we don’t know which debt is good and which isn’t.  The melt-up fraud was that bad—with people lying, cheating, and stealing from the ground level of real estate to the aeries of investment bank arbitrage traders.

The bailout fund is about replacing a gaping black hole where assets should be with treasuries.  The debt instruments that we buy will be worthless, we can be nearly sure of that.  What is more, this fund is not enough to return US banks to real health, just to zombiehood like the japanese banks (at best).  Therefore, equity returns are highly likely to be depressed for a very long while if we don’t have corporations playing shell games with holding companies and seperating out a company with profitable interests leave the original company that the US has equity in as the bad bank.

We.Are.Not.Going.To.Make.Money

All we are doing is buying time and applying as much palliative as possible (and doing plenty of Please God Make This Work prayers too).

Comment #37: shah8  on  09/28  at  09:59 PM

It is a problem that we can’t accurately value the bad mortgages, shah.  But that’s why an equity stake—that is, bank stock—is so important. 

If we overpay for some bad loans, but get a big equity stake in the troubled companies we bought the loans from, we get back some of the money by which we overpaid.  Now we’re shareholders of a company that got overpaid, which mitigates the costs of overpaying by whatever percentage our equity stake is. 

Really, I’d just like to see failing banks get nationalized, and then re-privatized at some future point for big profits.  But that doesn’t seem to be an option, so I’m happy with a partial version of that.

Comment #38: Neil the Ethical Werewolf  on  09/28  at  10:23 PM

Here’s Krugman, on his blog:
“Overall, Dodd and Frank succeeded in pushing Paulson a fairly long way back; probably as good a deal as they could have gotten. But someday we’ll have an administration that actually proposes good policies to start with.”

Comment #39: Neil the Ethical Werewolf  on  09/28  at  10:35 PM

Neil, you are correct that the best way to do it is the Scandinavian Model of nationalizing, wiping bank bad debts, wiping out the banking leaders, and recapitalizing.

However, I think many people who advocate such a process are failing to recognize the political difficulty in enacting such a program before dislocations appear in the normal economy.  Not to mention that the Scandinavian method involved smaller banks than the ones in trouble here.

As far as equity, this is a fig-leaf, and always has been.  There are simply too many ways of avoiding returning value, and this $700 billion bailout plan is part of a continuing management of the crisis.  It’s not the end.  Lastly, we don’t know *how* much equity we are getting per metric shitload of debt instrument.

Comment #40: shah8  on  09/28  at  11:01 PM

I guess I agree with shah8 that whatever successes previous instances of bailout-for-equity may have enjoyed, this particular clusterfrak is entirely too untransparent to expect any good outcome. It’s not that there are no good assets in the pile; it’s that they are all tangled up and the only people who know the difference are a bunch of scattered insiders who would never be rooted out short of wholesale nationalization of the whole sector of the “industry,” and even then it would be a race with the paper shredders.

If the goal is to see to it that the country actually gets some value for its investment, the best way would be to go to the bottom of the dogpile—offer to relieve the actual mortgage holders themselves. There should be some screening to filter out people who obviously gamed the system, but the point of the funding should be to ensure that home buyers actually get to keep their homes, and to relieve them of payments out of proportion to what they can pay and the reasonable value of their homes, evaluated not in a wildly out of kilter market but on objective factors. If the government then offers to lenders up the chain reasonable compensation for the difference between what they actually paid out and what the buyers can and should reasonably pay (subject, that is, to scrutiny of the lenders’ practices to see if they were behaving reasonably when they offered the money) then we might stave off the collapse while the air works its way gradually out of the system. The big shots would stop making profits and even take losses, perhaps huge losses, but not actually go under, unless they were egregiously out of line, in which case they ought to go to jail anyway.

At any rate, millions of working people would keep their homes, stay off the rental market, and be able to survive on their incomes. This would provide a multiplier effect, or at least avert the negative multiplier that kicks in when these millions become destitute and desperate, and so business would be able to survive if not exactly prosper while we ride out the hangover.

Assuming that is that this crisis is not just the first crack in a jerry-rigged false economy that is due for a crisis anyway; in that case even the best possible plan might be doomed as the whole thing comes sliding down anyhow.

Ah well, I hardly expect the government, even under Obama and with solid Democratic majorities in both houses of Congress, to take such a radically populist approach. If they tried, the whole business sector would rebel, shutting down enterprises left and right, on the grounds that they are skeptical that any profits could be safe. That’s the essence of a capitalist crisis after all—some get wiped out, and the rest pull in their horns and wait it out, living on their fat while the world’s work stops and everyone else starves. It’s essentially a strike of capital for higher profits, we just don’t call it that.

Comment #41: Mark Foxwell  on  09/29  at  12:10 AM

home you keyboard keyboard apple girl ibm mail joke trust white

Comment #42: thisapplecub  on  09/29  at  12:56 AM

This makes me depressed…They don’t really intend to do anything other than the original plan as outlined by Paulson, no matter what the bill actually says.

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/09/mussolini-style-corporatism-in-action.html

I think we’re actually going to have to hope for a failure of the bill on this go-around in order to convince certain entitled people that respecting the democratic process is a positive.

Comment #43: shah8  on  09/29  at  01:15 AM

That’s not right, Shah.  For example, this:
“They did say that if the amount sold was greater than $100 million, they would take warrants.”
wasn’t in the original Paulson plan.  I mean, maybe Paulson was virtuously intending to do it and never told anybody.  But it wasn’t in the plan.

Comment #44: Neil the Ethical Werewolf  on  09/29  at  01:25 AM

Sure, the eye thing is significant. I’m talking about attacking. Seems to me that nothing works better with the American public, in any situation

Yes, but it’s transient. Attacks are short attention span devices, people get tired of them quickly. Hear anything much about Jeremiah Wright lately? Me neither. Which is why I was actually glad to see the attacks from Clinton as well as the right-wing early on, because it burned out the public’s and media’s interest in them by the fall. If Obama couldn’t survive them, he didn’t deserve to win the primaries. But at this point in time, he “pre-disastered.”

Comment #45: Joe Max  on  09/29  at  05:06 AM

By the way, McCain isn’t conservative.  Palin is.

What more do you need to know?

Watching Palin getting blessed by the witch hunting preacher, I suddenly realized that people like siobhan would watch that video and say, “so what’s wrong with that?” Weepy prayers, speaking in tongues, faith healing, holy rolling, praying away curses and waiting for the apocalypse - that is perfectly normal, everyday behavior for them. Bigotry is like breathing for them. Palin is not a conservative aberration, she is the archetype of what is called “conservatism” these days.

Barry Goldwater is spinning in his grave fast enough to generate electricity.

Comment #46: Joe Max  on  09/29  at  05:26 AM

I think I have an explanation for why McCain seemed so damned angry at the debate: he has belated realized that he is not qualified for his highest ideal.  After a lifetime of being certain of himself and his talents he has come to grips with the fact that he objectively isn’t good enough and he is being publicly seen as not being good enough and that disappointment and humiliation is manifesting itself as rage.

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