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Next entry: Family Research Council founder vacations with his rent boy, er, ‘Travel Assistant’ Previous entry: Harassing science out of existence

There is no Real America

Well, now they have a suspect in custody for the attempted Times Square bombing.  As he’s a naturalized citizen from Pakistan, we can expect right wing bloggers to ratchet up the nonsense.  Roy Edroso detailed what is perhaps the itchiest annoying trope—-the pseudo-love of New York City that’s pouring from people who otherwise use the city as an example of a cesspool of liberalism.

But the worst part, for any of us have claimed the proud title of Citizen of New York, was the clammy hand of rightbloggers clamping on the shoulders of New Yorkers, simultaneously pretending to offer solace for the non-explosion and demanding political favors.

The whole thing does reveal a comical bit of cognitive dissonance for movement conservatives, one they don’t have to deal with except when something like this attempted car bombing happens. Wingnuts think of themselves as the True Patriots, the keepers of the flame of Americana, the people who really cherish this country sea to shining sea.  But they don’t particularly like the urban areas.  This presents a problem, since most nations are defined through their cities, and ours is no exception.  I’m sure wingnuts would like to think that we’re exempt from the fact that people think “Paris” when they think of France or “Tokyo” when they think of Japan or “Moscow” when they think of Russia.  But even if you can tune out what foreigners think, you’re still faced with the fact that the cultural centers that create most of what we think of as American culture are our big cities.  Even the idealized images of small town America that entrance the wingnutteria were often invented and promulgated by creative types that live in the hated urban hellholes.  Wingnuts rail against New York City and Los Angeles and San Francisco because they don’t want to admit that these places are where our culture comes from, and that their idea of Real America as being whitebred suburban America is only part of the story.

Nothing new there, but I’ve been thinking a lot about this clash between the Real America ideal being touted by the conservative movement, and, you know, real America.  The one happening right in front of our eyes.  This whole Arizona thing has really drudged up a lot of memories of living in the Southwest as a kid.*  And having thought about it, and how conservative white people act in the Southwest, I finally settled on a way to describe it.  Basically, a lot of white people in the Southwest buy into the image of small town Midwestern or even Southern America.  They dream of white picket fences, casserole dishes, going fishing on the weekends, fill in your cultural stereotype.  But the Southwest doesn’t look or feel quite like that image.  It’s fewer white picket fences and more cactus gardens.  It’s less green bean casserole and more enchiladas.  The Christmas traditions were less sleigh rides and more luminarios.  It’s less cities named Indianapolis and Cleveland and more named El Paso and Santa Fe.  The oldest historical landmarks aren’t revolutionary war memorials or the homes of prestigious Victorians, but Spanish missions and Native American ruins.  It’s less tree-lined streets that give comfort and closeness, and more broad desert vistas that make you feel a little small while the world looks big and old. 

The reaction to this cultural difference is a mixed one for a lot of conservative white people.  On one hand, they try to contain it through the cute.  They get their houses decorated with touches of Southwestern decor, and entertain guests from back East by treating these differences like an inconsequential tourist attraction, and basically try to control and minimize.  They mispronounce the Spanish names of everything around them.  They treat cooking Tex-Mex like it’s an occasional novelty instead of just how you eat.  But the fact that no, we really are different gets to them, and they battle this lurking suspicion that they really can’t completely own the Southwest, no matter how many Applebee’s you plant there.  And they take their rage out on their Mexican-American neighbors, who are the most visible example of how the Southwest is different, and they can’t control that difference.  They use “illegal immigration” as a cover, but it’s basically an all-out culture war on a culture that stubbornly insists on being itself, a blend between the U.S. and Mexican cultures and uniquely its own. 

Of course, this is mainly a transplant issue.  White people brought up from babyhood in the Southwest are far more likely to regard what’s “different” about it as normal, and far less likely, in my experience, to exhibit hostility towards Hispanic people.  (Though there’s still a lot of racism there.)  For me, the parts of the country that are considered more of an iconic America were the strange places.  The white picket fence and tree-lined streets was what looked weird to me.  And now that I’m living in New York, I really begin to see how much the Southwest is ignored as a legitimate part of the United States, and its culture is treated as alien, and its political landscape is sorely misunderstood.

*Texas is a weird state, in that the state is so big and so centrally located that it doesn’t fit into any one region of the country. West Texas is very much in the Southwest.  The Panhandle and the Dallas area fit more into the Midwest culture.  East Texas is more like the South.  And Central Texas is a true hodge podge, which is why I like it.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 10:25 AM • (107) Comments

Amanda wrote:

The oldest historical landmarks are revolutionary war memorials or the homes of prestigious Victorians, but Spanish missions and Native American ruins.

I think you meant “aren’t” rather than “are.”

Comment #1: Dana  on  05/04  at  11:43 AM

“The Southwest” itself also seems to be a hodgepodge, from what little I’ve seen. I mean, I’m from SoCal, so I’m used to L.A.‘s bigness, but landing in Phoenix at night makes you realize how huge the place is. As for NM, I haven’t been further south than Albuquerque, and I liked Santa Fe because of the history and not the superficial Anglo tourist-trappy-ness. Nevada was just Vegas. Colorado actually seemed very white. Haven’t been to Texas yet.

I know I’m a hated Californian whenever I visit these places, but they’re much more familiar to me than Boston or Seattle or other big U.S. cities, and anyway, I like them all (urban or rural). They have these foreign phenomena that I’m not yet used to: “seasons” and “weather.”

Comment #2: keirdubois  on  05/04  at  11:54 AM

First, I love how the narrative shifted in the MSM: first reaction was “ZOMG Al Quaeda cell!!!” Then, the moment the prime suspect became a 40-something white guy, it was “disgruntled loner, no ties to terrorist groups, nothing to see, move along.” Now that a Pakistani-American is in custody, we’re back to “ZOMG Islamofascist conspiracy!” To tie things to your post, this is the result of the MSM pandering to people who believe “Real Americans” (white, male, 40+—i.e. people like their viewing audience) can’t possibly be members of organised terrorist groups. It’s like Oklahoma City never happened.

Edroso’s right on regarding the slimy response of right-wingers when NYC gets hit by terrorism—pure opportunism as they pretend us godless liberal urban types have common cause with them against their cartoon version of the enemy (because, unlike we wimpy bleeding heart librul past and present NYers, most of them have never had their city attacked).

If the prime suspect had turned out to be that 40-something white dude, you can bet that instead of the clammy hand of pseudo-sympathy there would have been ringing public silence from conservatives, and some interesting “serves ‘em right” private conversations.

Comment #3: Gracchus.  on  05/04  at  12:01 PM

Oklahoma City, Atlanta, the Anthrax Letters, Benjamin Smith, Knoxville, the Unabomber, ELF.

The answer to the riddle is that Right Wingers want to put forth a mythological history of the Puritans as the origin of the United States, ignoring that Spanish colonization has as much claim to U.S. heritage.

Comment #4: CBrachyrhynchos  on  05/04  at  12:08 PM

I am a transplant to the southwest (Orange County, California). I moved here after I graduated college. The one thing I discovered is that the “minorities” are different (blacks v. hispanics), but their cultures are treated the same way by the caucasians living among them. In Tennessee, the “cool” white people all ate at the old soul food or BBQ joints owned and/or operated by black people. This meant that they weren’t racist. In SoCal, it’s exactly the same accept they’re eating mexican food.
  The one thing I wanted to accomplish when I moved here was becoming a part of the culture of the southwest, hispanic culture particularly. I didn’t want to, as Amanda stated, treat it as a tourist attraction. It isn’t just about the food (although that is a HUGE part of it for me, cause I LOVE it). Mexican culture is all around us here and its interesting. The art is beautiful. The music is awesome (especially once you learn the language). To not be absorbed by it, you would have to walk around w/blinders on constantly. Or live in a gated community that keeps “them” out.

Comment #5: Mark  on  05/04  at  12:19 PM

Arizona has a lot more transplants than New Mexico or West Texas, and I think that’s what feeds a lot of this.  Their hostility to immigrants is in direct proportion to how many of them are kind of immigrants themselves, from other parts of the country.

Comment #6: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/04  at  12:26 PM

And what’s also interesting is how the main purveyors of the “real America” mantra live and work right in New York City—Fox News (Glenn Beck), and Rush Limbaugh. But they gloss over that when talking about godless east coast liberals.

We all knew that the right would get very quiet if the terrorist were a middle aged white guy. But besides their usual racism, they are always gleeful when there is an attack or an attempted attack by someone who looks “foreign”. It fits right into their end times, “those liberals are going to get what’s coming to them” way of thinking.

Comment #7: DC Fem  on  05/04  at  12:38 PM

Actually, Americans everywhere mispronounce any word of foreign origin. Spanish is not alone in receiving that disrespect. You should hear what we do to french and german names in St. Louis. I lived here for 10 years before I realized that Chouteau Street and the street pronounced Show-toe were one and the same.

Americans just seem to have this weird thing were they seem to think that only effete liberal snobs pronounce things right.

Comment #8: Bruce from Missouri  on  05/04  at  12:52 PM

I was saddened to find out it was a naturalized Pakistani if that can sound acceptable.  Because if anything it feeds into that right-wing hate machine that will want to start putting racial quotas specifically on the middle east/islamic states and then run the Mexican-Americans out because they’re dirty Catholics as well. 

The “Real American” idea has been floating since the Civil War and frankly it’s old.  First the Confederacy used it to justify secession and the war.  Railroads used the ideal to sell barren land along their ill-begotten federal land to enrich themselves.  Southerners again used it during Jim Crow to justify their treatment of blacks.  Midwesterner got a swollen head if they survived the dust bowl to get bailed out by the industrialized north when they decided to run from unionization and build massive industrial plants in tiny towns that are now collapsing as the plants age and cheaper labor is found outside of our borders.  Now it’s just a generic term for anybody who agrees with the racists and fear mongers.  I hate to say this but it seems like every time somebody has pulled out the pop culture belief of Americans it ends up being to cover up the reality how just how terrible we are as a people.  The north isn’t without it’s evils but there have been few times in history where pop culture tried to paint them as “Real” or “True” Americans.  They just were Americans, no need to aggrandize themselves.

Comment #9: Xeranar  on  05/04  at  01:05 PM

i grew up in NM, and the culture is very different from the east coast (which is generally understood to include everything in the central and eastern time zones). but it’s also different from AZ. i’ve long suspected that part of the difference in attitude toward spanish-speakers stems from the fact that NM has a longer history as a seat of spanish government. heck, there are people living north of santa fe who will fervently remind you that they are spaniards, not mexicans (they don’t even acknowledge mexico’s independence).

so in a way, people coming to NM were moving into an area with a govt, economy, and social order already extant (and the spaniards had already dealt with the pesky indians). AZ, on the other hand, seems to have played out more like suburbia on a larger scale. i am always entertained by how the “health seekers” moved to AZ to get away from allergenic plants, but they planted lawns and flower gardens anyway, bringing the very things they were trying to escape.  it’s also much harder to push the “govt is evil” theme in NM, where odds are over 50% that any white person works for, or otherwise directly supports, the federal govt.

that isn’t to say that NM doesn’t have its share of racism or anti-immigrant mentalities. NM shares the pejorative “wetback” with TX, a term that has no meaning in AZ, CA, or anywhere else really.

Comment #10: cj  on  05/04  at  01:07 PM

I think we have to be kind of careful taking either side in the debate about “where our culture comes from.”  There are plenty of conservative chauvinists who want it to be in small towns and rural areas, but lefties supporting the coastal cities are just as chauvinistic. 

I don’t even really know how to conceptualize culture in this debate.  On the one hand, culture is the artifacts of culture—movies, music, art, etc.  But culture is also the daily rituals and expectations of individuals.  We eat cereal for breakfast because that’s our culture.  In other parts of the world, they eat beans.  Those daily rituals and expectations can’t really be assigned a coastal or urban origin.  And culture is imminently regional—there is very little national culture in the US, though most people can get by pretty much everywhere without suffering “culture shock.”

What about the artifacts of culture?  It does seem that the artifacts come from NY, LA, and other big cities on the coasts, but I would bet that most of the people making those artifacts come from Texas, and Missouri, and Colorado.  LA and New York are not LA and New York just because all the creative people live there.  They are what they are because economies of creative work have been established in those locations.  The economies draw in other creative people from the rest of the country, and if people could make money staying in their home towns a lot of them would.  Some of this is happening as music production becomes cheaper and easier.

In any case, this is something that I have been thinking a lot about since Treme began airing.  At it’s heart, Treme is an argument for forgotten and disposed areas of the country.  It’s an argument for maintaining regional and local cultures, for not just accepting that everyhing should happen in LA and New York.  When the characters are talking about rebuilding New Orleans, they’re talking about Detroit, St. Louis, Baltimore, Indianapolis, Cleveland and all those other cities that have been decimated over the past few decades but still have a lot to offer the country.

Let’s not get wrapped up in this debate about culture—it comes from everywhere rather equally.  People should support what’s local, and if you don’t like what’s local, find someplace you do like.

Comment #11: Reece  on  05/04  at  01:08 PM

As an Albuquerque semi-native, I agree about how conservative Whites behave there. However:

They mispronounce the Spanish names of everything around them.

This is more true for Texans than for New Mexicans.  There’s a bit more pressure to say things correctly in NM. I mean, you guys even pronounce the double-L in “Amarillo” as an “L.”  But overall, your point stands.

Comment #12: Cris  on  05/04  at  01:22 PM

@Bruce from Missouri

All due respect, but mispronunciation is not necessarily a sign of disrespect, nor is it unique to Americans (Spanish speakers mispronounce English words all the time, Japanese speakers “butcher” western words, etc.) Not to mention that some people simply have a different dialect, in which some words are pronounced quite differently even though they are the same words and mean the exact same thing (who’s right a guy from Brooklyn and a lady from Nebraska both say the word “baseball”?)

Hell, I’ve lived in Albuquerque for my entire life and I’m still not totally comfortable pronouncing some Spanish words, it’s rarely on purpose (this is not to deny that there aren’t plenty of people who really are smug assholes who mispronounce things on purpose, but it’s ridiculous to assume that they all do it).

Comment #13: Elliot  on  05/04  at  01:23 PM

Washington gets the same, but more segregated because of the mountains.  While many talk about 2 Washingtons; East-West, there tend to be actually 3.  The west is urban Seattle (and now Bellevue) surrounded by suburbs and the east is high-plains farmland with isolated towns.
But in Western Washington you see populations grow whiter and more isolationist up to a certain point, then it becomes more rural and diverse.
In Eastern Washington where the crops depend on migrant workers it’s diverse in the farmland again until you hit the towns and their suburbs where it becomes white again.

The east side complains loudly about how Seattle has a disproportionate influence on the government, never taking into account that it is because we have more people.  Seattle is the engine of Washington.  The food grown in the east is transported on highways and freeways paid for by Seattle.  The fire suppression that keeps the dry eastside contained and not turned to ashes every summer comes from Seattle.  The east part of the state gets $1.10 - $1.71 back for every tax dollar they send to Olympia because of Seattle.
And most of the time we don’t really mind it because we don’t like seeing our neighbors on the east side of the mountains suffering through winters in leaking trailers and eating cat food.

Most of what I’ve seen of the east side’s culture is closer to the wild-west/ cowboy culture even though most people live off of crops and orchards then from herding cows.  They borrow from Montana and Kansas yet fear when Seattle tries to borrow from San Francisco.

Comment #14: cynickal  on  05/04  at  01:31 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBHYXlIwoGc

Consider it a preview of coming attractions in Arizona.

Comment #15: Ms Kate  on  05/04  at  01:44 PM

Speaking as Jersey boy who grew up just outside of the city and spent a great deal of my youth there and also worked there for years when I was first out of college (mid-town Manhattan on Madison between 40th and 41st), I was saying the same things you are saying when the 9/11 attacks went down.  I was working in Princeton, NJ when that went off and could see the smoke from the disaster crossing the sky every day for a week as I drove north on Route 1 and the ruins smoldered on.  I had friends all over the country expressing their sympathy, but these were the same people who used to say how they hated New York and couldn’t understand what I liked about it, etc.  I now live in Minnesota in the Twin Cities metro area and I hear it all the time when I’m in a bar or restaurant and there’s a game on TV with a New York team.  They root against New York teams reflexively.  A few times I have asked people why they root against the Yankees or the Giants or whatever and they answered that they “hate New York”.  When I asked if they had ever been there, they all, unanimously, answered “no”.

New York is as symbol of something they hate, something they feel, I believe, rejects them and acts superior to them, so they reject it.  I can’t wait to hear one of them say something sympathetic about it now.  Not that I’d start in with them over it or anything, but just because I would have to laugh.  At the heart of it, I don’t think they realize how inclusive New York is and how much it embraces strangers.  I think it scares them.  Strangely enough, here in the land of “Minnesota Nice”, I find the people much more cliquish and judgmental than in New York. And if I hear one more homophobic remark from some asshat in a bar or casino, I may have to do something that strikes terror into a Minnesotan’s heart and be…confrontational!

I miss New York a lot.  Great city, New York.

Comment #16: DBK  on  05/04  at  01:45 PM

The oldest historical landmarks aren’t revolutionary war memorials or the homes of prestigious Victorians,

Just a quibble, but you don’t find these in the midwest nor much of the southern US (not Southern America; I’ve never heard anyone from there refer to it as such).

Comment #17: helen w. h.  on  05/04  at  01:47 PM

Panhandle and the Dallas area fit more into the Midwest culture.

Uhm, just no.  You would have to be as far north as Arkansas or Mossouri to even begin that.  This area of Texas is very southern plains to Southwest and not much midwest (compair Dallas to Des Moines).

Comment #18: helen w. h.  on  05/04  at  01:52 PM

Goddamn it! I hate when people begin their comment with “actually.”

Comment #19: whiskeytangofoxtrot  on  05/04  at  02:00 PM

most nations are defined through their cities, and ours is no exception

Have you seen the new U.S. passport?  The background images on the pages where the stamps go have no cities on them, just purple mountains’ majesty and the like.  Our official representation of our nation to the rest of the world includes no cities (and no people, for that matter, except for two cowboys).  Makes me wonder who was on the committee that put it together…

Comment #20: Storm at Sea  on  05/04  at  02:08 PM

DBK, I root for the Mets and against the Yankees and did long before I visited and worked in NYC.  The Yankees have been high paid prima donas showboating (even against each other) for a century; the Mets are a scrappy all-for-one sort of team.  (yes, I know that is in large part PR).
I miss NY, too; and I’m only in MA.
SaS @ 21: Did you read the quotations?  I’m very sure the pictures were chosen as deliberately.  Everyone interested in the US already knows something about LA, NYC, even Dallas.

Comment #21: helen w. h.  on  05/04  at  02:14 PM

DBK-

Oh god, I HATE Minnesota Nice.  There’s plenty of things about this culture that is fun and nice (commitment to education being one of the major ones) but their absolute FEAR of verbal confrontation is the worst. 

If you’re in the MSP area, you should drop me a line sometime.  I’m always interested in meeting online people in meat-space.

Comment #22: Antigone  on  05/04  at  02:17 PM

I do think that the tendency of older white people to retire to Arizona is the source of a lot of these problems.  They want to impose their idea of the good life by fiat, and aren’t very flexible.  And that escalates their racism.

Comment #23: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/04  at  02:24 PM

helen, you speak to me as if I’ve never been to Dallas, which we Austinites call the “threat from the north”.  You may not like it, but compared to the rest of Texas, the culture there is very Midwestern.  Sorry if you don’t like it!

Comment #24: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/04  at  02:29 PM

Reece, that’s really my point, don’t you think, when I say there is is no real America?  You make me feel like I came down and chose a side, when I was suggesting it’s all America.

Comment #25: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/04  at  02:31 PM

helen-
I grew up a Yankees fan, but I don ‘t remember any Yankees fans who rooted against the Mets.  I always wanted to see a subway series so I rooted for the Mest as a sort of fallback rooting position.  The only team I ever rooted against was the Boston Red Sox.  I stopped caring about sports a couple of decades back, but they love them some sports around here.  I mentioned the Yankees and Giants, but they root against Jets, Mets, Knicks, Rangers, Devils, etc.  And yes, the Devils are New Jersey, but so are the Giants and Jets, so nyah-nyah-nyah-cakes.  Anyway, they root against ALL New York teams around here and against most things New York.

Comment #26: DBK  on  05/04  at  02:36 PM

Amanda is exactly right.  People who want “their America back” just want some idea that America is this white, suburban paradise, like Leave It to Beaver.  I grew up in Paterson, NJ, my grammar school was more than 50% black and hispanic, and MY America was diverse and urban and rich and exciting and didn’t smell of lilacs but smelled of asphalt and exhaust.  My summers weren’t spent in the meadow, but on the streets.  That was America for every American I knew.

Comment #27: DBK  on  05/04  at  02:41 PM

I like New York just fine, but FTFY

Comment #28: Sour Kraut  on  05/04  at  02:42 PM

Yankees hatred is indeed its own beast, and may or may not have any relationship to hating NYC, depending on the Yankees hater.

Comment #29: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/04  at  02:54 PM

As a non-American, the image I get when thinking about America is South-Western - cars driving on desert roads, scrubs, adobe villages. For many other non-Americans, it’s Texas in particular - just like when people think of Bavaria when thinking of Germany, non-Americans think of Texas when thinking of United States.

Comment #30: Tatu Ahponen  on  05/04  at  03:12 PM

I agree that NYC doesn’t regard the Southwest as “really” American in some sense of the term, but my experience in NYC was that the standard was more a matter of whether a place was important, noteworthy, or deserving of respect.  It functions the same as the South and Midwest standard of “real Americans” but it’s a different criterion that leads NYC to tend to regard just about anything outside of the city (other than perhaps Boston, D.C., Chicago, and L.A.) as a quaint outpost, at best.  That parochialism was the only thing I didn’t like about NYC, though even that I can excuse somewhat given that 1) NYC is such an astonishing place and 2) the “quaint outposts” spend so much time getting their hate on about NYC.

Comment #31: Thom  on  05/04  at  03:25 PM

DBK, I am honestly surprised to hear that you encounter hostility to New York in the Twin Cities.  I have lived here all my life (raised in New Brighton, currently in north St Paul) and I have never really encountered that attitude.  I guess it depends what circles you run in.

Comment #32: GumbyAnne  on  05/04  at  03:32 PM

Even individual states in the SW are a total hodegpodge, because (?) you get huge climate differences, say from Phoenix to Flagstaff, and pretty big cultural differences, too… Socorro ain’t Los Alamos ain’t Shiprock, and everything’s pretty far apart, compared to, say, the East Coast.

Comment #33: lonespark  on  05/04  at  03:39 PM

a term that has no meaning in AZ, CA,

I’m sorry, the latter is so wrong, that there is a Mexican-Spanish term, mojado, that is used here in the Golden State.

Of course, I’m given to understand from my cousin in Quinlan, TX, that the preferred term of art is greasers, which rings a bit old-fashioned to my ears, you’d not find it used outside of Bakersfield, CA, IMHO.

Comment #34: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  05/04  at  03:41 PM

Amanda,

I agree with you in general, but this is the sentence that got me:

Wingnuts rail against New York City and Los Angeles and San Francisco because they don’t want to admit that <i>these places are where our culture comes from,<i> and that their idea of Real America as being whitebred suburban America is only part of the story.

What I don’t like is the idea that NYC and LA produce all the culture.  I grew up in the Midwest, lived in Texas for a few years, and now live on the East Coast.  I can get really annoyed with people who think that the center of the country is a cultural wasteland or who think that all important trends start on the coasts and filter inwards.  But these are almost accepted truths among many people who have no experience with the Midwest.  Generally, I don’t get the sense that you think this, but you’re from Texas.

It’s really the Midwest’s problem.  Most people would say that the South has it’s own culture.  Texas, even as diverse as it is, is very good at telling its story, and that helps to reinforce the cultural idea of Texas.  I don’t think people know what to make of the Midwest, and it’s frustrating to hear uninformed claims to superiority.  (Again, not necessarily from you, but it happens a lot.)

Comment #35: Reece  on  05/04  at  03:43 PM

I’m in Colorado, and I read this earlier today and then went out and did a couple hours of yardwork, all the while cursing the stupid HOA and their insistence on pain-in-the-ass, water-guzzling, non-native grass lawns. I grew up in the Midwest where these kinds of lawn are the norm, and so did a lot of people, which is why those “real America” HOAs put these grass clauses in. The frickin’ “real America” fantasy - not only bad for people, but hard on the environment, too!

(And no, it was not my wish to live in HOA-controlled suburbia, but it’s where circumstances brought me, and it will be some time before the desire to move will outweigh all the problems and issues surrounding actually moving.)

Comment #36: Phoebe Fay  on  05/04  at  03:54 PM

One more thing, as a native Midwesterner and speaking on behalf of all Midwesterners, we ain’t claiming no part of Texas, no matter what other Texans may think.

Comment #37: Phoebe Fay  on  05/04  at  03:55 PM

A former friend used to argue that the US should adopt English only. This was in Michigan. Her reasoning was that language was such a divider: “just look at Quebec.” I tried pointing out that it wasn’t so much of the language that was dividing that situation so much as the pushback against cultural homogeny. You know, like trying to mandate that English should be the only language. Look at Switzerland. They speak something like 20 languages there and they don’t seem to be tearing apart at the seams over it.

There’s only so much you can try to reason with someone who flips their shit when the ATM has a button to proceed in Spanish, though.

Also, a culture with less green bean casseroles and more enchiladas should be embraced.

Comment #38: Mighty Ponygirl  on  05/04  at  04:00 PM

Naturalized Pakistani suspect in custody or not, I still don’t believe that no teabaggers were involved in an attempt to blow up Times Square with an SUV full of kerosene and fireworks.

Comment #39: Aaron  on  05/04  at  04:07 PM

What I don’t like is the idea that NYC and LA produce all the culture.

NYC and LA certainly dominate production and publishing, but they’re certainly tapping regional stories and authors as well.

Comment #40: CBrachyrhynchos  on  05/04  at  04:23 PM

Real America? As an old-stock, all my ancestors were here before the revolution southern white boy, what I have always loved about my country is that absolutely anybody can be an American. It’s an act of volition at least as much as it is of birth. These nativist types drive me mad. We need to call them what they are - cowards. They are afraid. The root of authoritarianism is fear, and these people wake up with the stink of it in their nostrils every single day. They are simple cowards, ruled by their own fears, and deserve to be mocked as such.

Comment #41: Theron  on  05/04  at  04:24 PM

I do think that the tendency of older white people to retire to Arizona is the source of a lot of these problems.  They want to impose their idea of the good life by fiat, and aren’t very flexible.  And that escalates their racism.

It doesn’t help that all of the retirees gather together and reinforce each others’ worst tendencies.  I swear to dog, my parents were not this racist before they retired to Arizona, but now I can barely have a conversation with them because they keep repeating back things that they hear from their friends and on Fox News.  The results of peer pressure aren’t any prettier at 60 than at 16.

Comment #42: Mnemosyne  on  05/04  at  04:27 PM

But the Southwest doesn’t look or feel quite like that image.  It’s fewer white picket fences and more cactus gardens.

Generally true, but it’s not for a lack of trying.

Despite the fact that it necessitates a tremendous waste of water, I’m always shocked by the huge number of golf courses in Arizona, and the idiots in Paradise Valley (a rich Phoneix suburb) who insist on having well-manicured grass lawns… despite the fact that the whole goddamned state is in the middle of a fucking desert!

Comment #43: DTG in STL  on  05/04  at  04:32 PM

Well, GumbyAnne, you need to hang out in some bar or casino when a New York team is on TV against some team other than a Minnesota team.  When I hear someone rooting against a New York team, I ask why they root against the Yankees/Mets/Giants/Jets/etc.  The answer is, “I hate all New York teams.”  I ask if they hate New York and they sort of kind of indicate that they do in that Minnesota “can’t really say anything bad about anything like that because it would be confrontational in some way” way.  Then I ask if they’d ever been to New York and they say “no”.  I’ve had this happen at Main Street Bar and Grill in Hopkins and in Shakopee at Canterbury.  I admit this is not a scientific inquiry I’ve made and I didn’t take a broad sample of the population.  I’ve probably run into it five or six times, but that strikes me as a lot, especially when, on two occasions, the New York hatred got yupped by several others at the card table.  It may be that you, as a native Minnesotan, don’t bring it out in people and maybe my eastern accent does.  Not that I sound like Tony Soprano or anything (but then, I don’t know any Jerseyites who sounded like him…he always sounded pretty Bronx to me).

And Tony Soprano is America, too.  And so are Snoop Dogg and Dolly Parton.

Comment #44: DBK  on  05/04  at  04:34 PM

What I don’t like is the idea that NYC and LA produce all the culture.

I agree with the general sentiment (and liked your insightful comment on Treme). However, until the advent of the user-generated Internet content (i.e. very recently), NYC and L.A. did produce mainstream American culture—the very culture that the Know-Nothings soak in and long for.

The whitebread suburban American template that wingnuts love and venerate as a national ideal didn’t really exist before movie moguls and TV producers in NYC and L.A. (many of them Jewish immigrants) started making it a staple of the mass media. The usual starting point is identified as 1937, with the first of the Andy Hardy movies:

Most of the movies were set in the Hardys’ fictional hometown of Carvel, located in Idaho in the original play but described in the films as being in the Midwest. All of the films were sentimental comedies celebrating ordinary American life. The people in Carvel, by and large, were pious, patriotic, generous and tolerant. The town represented movie mogul Louis B. Mayer’s idealized vision of his adopted country.

This series spawned imitators from other studios, and you can trace a straight white line from Carvel to the various TV sitcom towns of the 1950s. Other industries extended the generic “All-American” vision into the realms of food and fashion.

It’s always amusing to me that the main cultural narrative of the Know-Nothings is largely the product of eeeevvilll non-Xtian immigrants.

Comment #45: Gracchus.  on  05/04  at  04:34 PM

Look at Switzerland. They speak something like 20 languages there and they don’t seem to be tearing apart at the seams over it.

Yeah, but then look at Belgium.  They are tearing themselves apart over language (and culture).

My point is that the whole thing is incredibly complex and fact/location specific - you can’t generalise from one situation to another.  Which is mostly agreeing with your point really, except to say that Switzerland isn’t a generalisable situation either.  Also, they may be inguistically diverse, but the country as a whole is incredibly racist.

Comment #46: Katherine  on  05/04  at  04:36 PM

Of course, this is mainly a transplant issue.

Absolutely.

I believe that part of the reason that Phoenix is the second fastest growing major city in America (Las Vegas is first) is the fact that the Baby Boom generation is heading into retirement.

And while Florida is still perhaps the most popular destination for these retirees, Arizona is quickly catching up and Maricopa County is becoming a snowbird mecca for these angry old white people who grew up elsewhere in America.

Comment #47: DTG in STL  on  05/04  at  04:37 PM

DBK, I root for the Mets and against the Yankees and did long before I visited and worked in NYC.  The Yankees have been high paid prima donas showboating (even against each other) for a century; the Mets are a scrappy all-for-one sort of team.  (yes, I know that is in large part PR).

A large PR effort indeed.

No doubt the Yankees have been the epitome of everything that’s wrong with not having a hard salary cap in baseball (they have a soft cap that imposes a “luxury tax” on teams with the biggest payrolls), but the New York Mets are hardly paupers making due with table scraps.  I don’t know what their payroll is for 2010, but the red-headed stepchild of NY baseball teams has generally been among the top five MLB teams in total payroll over the past decade.  The fact that the Mets also spend a huge amount of money for their talent typically gets brushed aside because of how much more the Yankees spend.

Comment #48: DTG in STL  on  05/04  at  04:45 PM

However, until the advent of the user-generated Internet content (i.e. very recently), NYC and L.A. did produce mainstream American culture—the very culture that the Know-Nothings soak in and long for.

Mostly true, but one of the most uniquely American cultural phenomenons did not come from in NY or LA - jazz music, which was born in New Orleans, Louisiana.  And a significant amount of blues music came out of St. Louis and Chicago.

And, while most mainstream entertainment icons and celebrities become famous in NY and LA, a significant chunk of them were born and raised in the middle of the country.

Comment #49: DTG in STL  on  05/04  at  04:54 PM

I hate the Yankees because I hate Yankees fans.  I have yet to meet a Yankees fan who was knowledgeable about baseball in general—all they ever seem to know is Yankees lore.  I’ve met them in Baltimore, when they descend like locusts and act like they own the place, and I’ve met them at Cooperstown, which they treat as if it were the Yankee Hall of Fame.  I also hate the Yankees because they gobble up every good player in the league and then the fans call up the sports shows to complain that the team should have picked up Pujols/Mauer/Lincecum/whoever so that they could finish the season 162-0.

I would also hate the Mets because they beat my hometown Cardinals too often in the 80s, but frankly they are too pitiful to hate any more.

Comment #50: xebecs  on  05/04  at  05:05 PM

I agree with the general sentiment (and liked your insightful comment on Treme). However, until the advent of the user-generated Internet content (i.e. very recently), NYC and L.A. did produce mainstream American culture—the very culture that the Know-Nothings soak in and long for.

I think the situation is considerably more complex than that.

Comment #51: CBrachyrhynchos  on  05/04  at  05:06 PM

Let me say that I just spent 3 days in NYC (for the first time ever) and found it to be a marvelous place.  People were much friendlier and more helpful to this tourist than most of the people I have known in small-town Southern areas (a suspicious,“you ain’t from around here, are ya?” was common, even after I had lived there for years).

Comment #52: NobleExperiments  on  05/04  at  05:07 PM

Mostly true, but one of the most uniquely American cultural phenomenons did not come from in NY or LA - jazz music, which was born in New Orleans, Louisiana.

Instead of using the word “produce mainstream American culture” I should have said “distribute mainstream American culture,” although for a long time there was a great deal of overlap and inter-dependence between media production and distribution.

To use your example, jazz and the blues aren’t exactly mainstream. They were turned into variants that a mainstream audience would find palatable (i.e. swing and R&B;) in NYC and L.A. Production also occured in studios in Nashville and Detroit and Chicago, but distribution was dominated by labels based in L.A. and New York.

And, while most mainstream entertainment icons and celebrities become famous in NY and LA, a significant chunk of them were born and raised in the middle of the country.

Absolutely. But again, until very recently, the only way to become a mainstream national celebrity in America was to be embraced by the media-industrial distribution complex headquartered in those two cities.

Comment #53: Gracchus.  on  05/04  at  05:10 PM

@54: Well yeah. But there is a big difference between pointing out that NYC and LA have been gatekeepers and distributors of American culture, and saying that they are entirely responsible for creating American culture.

Comment #54: CBrachyrhynchos  on  05/04  at  05:25 PM

To use your example, jazz and the blues aren’t exactly mainstream. They were turned into variants that a mainstream audience would find palatable (i.e. swing and R&B;) in NYC and L.A. Production also occured in studios in Nashville and Detroit and Chicago, but distribution was dominated by labels based in L.A. and New York.

True, though I think you are defining American culture in a strictly contemporary sense.  Yes, in 2010, jazz and blues aren’t the most mainstream genres in music… but what about in the first half of the 20th Century, when they were very much a part of mainstream American culture?

I guess my point is that while mainstream culture is mostly distributed from the coasts, quite a bit of it can trace its roots to non-coastal cities.  And without the foundation of jazz and blues music first, would we have eventually developed most of today’s mainstream genres?

I do agree that most American culture throughout our history has been born from our urban centers, though I wouldn’t limit it to just the urban centers on the coasts… almost every major American city can cite some element of the greater American culture that was born in their city.

My city invented the ice cream cone in 1904.  And we gave the world T.S. Eliot, Tennessee Williams, William S. Burroughs, Tina Turner, Chuck Berry, Yogi Berra, Bob Costas, Jon Hamm and Jenna Fischer.  And most unfortunately, Phyllis Schlafly.

Comment #55: DTG in STL  on  05/04  at  05:36 PM

Well yeah. But there is a big difference between pointing out that NYC and LA have been gatekeepers and distributors of American culture, and saying that they are entirely responsible for creating American culture.

True, which is why I didn’t say the latter. What I said was, for a period of about 70 years, they defined (by inter-related production and distribution) mainstream American culture—not regional culture, not long-tail niches, but what’s recognised as a national culture (erroneously, in my view, since the USA is more state than nation). And in regard to the All-Murkin Know-Nothing audience we’re discussing, they still define it to a large extent, long after Father Knows Best left the airwaves (though I’ll bet it’s on in re-runs somewhere).

Comment #56: Gracchus.  on  05/04  at  05:36 PM

Katherine—I don’t see how it disproves my point. Language isn’t what tears societies apart, it’s enforced hegemony and a failure to embrace differences. Belgium may be tearing itself apart BECAUSE there are forces trying to institute one language, not because people speak two different languages. And whether or not Switzerland has a problem with racism, again, isn’t a function of how many languages they speak. Language is not a divider unless people force it to be one.

Instituting some language purity law is what rips apart a society, not the fact that an old latina grannie in El Paso can’t quite learn English and her grandchildren are still able to talk to her. When you try to divide families by stating that grannie isn’t welcome because she can’t figure out how to speak English, then your society starts to tear apart.

Comment #57: Mighty Ponygirl  on  05/04  at  05:39 PM

True, though I think you are defining American culture in a strictly contemporary sense.

If “contemporary” is the period of pre-Internet American mass media (roughly 1930s to 2000s), then yes.

what about in the first half of the 20th Century, when they were very much a part of mainstream American culture?

They were “mainstream” only in an urban, industrially distributed context. The Cotton Club, for example, wasn’t just a nightclub, it was a proto-brand—and a somewhat dangerous, Bohemian one at that. Jazz and blues were niche and regional markets, even back then. Swing, on the other hand, was mainstream. And it was mainstream because producers and studios in NYC and L.A. tailored it so it would be acceptable in high school gymnasiums and Fred Astaire movies, and not just in nightclubs in the “dangerous, coloured part of town” or in pictures that play once a week during “coloured night” at the local cinema.

I do agree that most American culture throughout our history has been born from our urban centers, though I wouldn’t limit it to just the urban centers on the coasts

I don’t limit creativity or even production to urban centres, now or historically. I don’t think Amanda is either, given her broad knowledge of music. We’re just acknowledging that when it comes to mass media of the sort consumed by the Know-Nothings, distribution is as important (if not more important) than the actual cultural product. The erosion of this system by digital production and distribution technologies is what MSM outlets have spent the last decade wrestling against.

Comment #58: Gracchus.  on  05/04  at  05:55 PM

@57: To me, it just seems that you’re playing semantic games with “mainstream” and the influences that it plundered. You can’t entirely separate Bing Crosby, Frank Sinatra, The Beach Boys, or Elvis Prestley from the African-American Ragtime, Jazz, and Blues roots that they emulated. You can’t talk about country music during this time entirely separate from the Bristol sessions.

Not that the appropriations were always respectful. Race novelty songs were hugely popular in the 50s and 60s.

Comment #59: CBrachyrhynchos  on  05/04  at  05:55 PM

How New Yorkers see the USA…

http://www.asdlabs.com/blog/2008/10/29/new-yorkers-map-of-america/

Comment #60: Mark  on  05/04  at  06:15 PM

you’re playing semantic games with “mainstream” and the influences that it plundered. You can’t entirely separate Bing Crosby, Frank Sinatra, The Beach Boys, or Elvis Prestley from the African-American Ragtime, Jazz, and Blues roots that they emulated.

I’m not doing that—quite the opposite. I’m acknowledging those roots, but I’m also making it clear that the mainstream distribution and production system “sanatised” them in the process in order to make them friendly to what was perceived as the mass market (white, middle-class, Christian, midwestern, etc.). No dark skin, no overt and raunchy sexual references, flash and “bling” (or clean and modest) instead of poverty.

“Mainstream” isn’t just a semantic term when you’re discussing mass media—it describes industry standards and expectations on a national scale.

Not that the appropriations were always respectful. Race novelty songs were hugely popular in the 50s and 60s.

This is a good example—these weren’t mainstream music records intended to go gold or platinum (such as Elvis’s appropriation of “race music”), they were marketed as niche comedy products. “Successful” does not necessarily mean “mainstream,” and is often just a cross-over fluke.

Comment #61: Gracchus.  on  05/04  at  06:19 PM

This discussion reminds me of the Nine Nations of North America, especially when Gracchus said the USA is more like a state, not a nation.

Comment #62: Ben D.  on  05/04  at  06:21 PM

BTW, I do agree that we are MORE a state than a nation, but not as much of an artificial state as say, Belgium, or even the USSR in it’s heyday.

Comment #63: Ben D.  on  05/04  at  06:25 PM

How New Yorkers see the USA…

Pretty good, but I still prefer this one.

I agree with the person who posted your map, though: for many New Yorkers that blue area would be a lot smaller, to the tune of three boroughs on a generous day. That said, heck yeah: greatest place in the world.

Comment #64: Gracchus.  on  05/04  at  06:27 PM

It’s so bizarre how in the upper midwest there’s a lot of French place names and yet that’s not treated with hostility and/or mispronounciation (ok maybe some yah sure you betcha) like the Southwest Spanish place names.
How can people NOT see the underlying racism?
I wish I could get used to people being ingorant twats about this but I really can’t.

Comment #65: Danica Lefse Queen  on  05/04  at  06:29 PM

The place names around here are either English or Native American, and strangely everybody gets the Native American pronunciations right, too. You never hear someone really butcher “Chesapeake”, or “Powhatan”.

Comment #66: Ben D.  on  05/04  at  06:33 PM

@62: Certainly, however that’s a radically different claim from what’s in Amanda’s opening post or your first post on the subject.

I don’t find your invocation of “mainstream” to be coherent, or at all consistent in use in this discussion.

Comment #67: CBrachyrhynchos  on  05/04  at  06:37 PM

How New Yorkers see the USA…
Comment #61: Mark

As a west-coaster, I agree.
And I’m ok with that.

Comment #68: cynickal  on  05/04  at  06:42 PM

I don’t find your invocation of “mainstream” to be coherent, or at all consistent in use in this discussion.

How is it not consistent? Beyond the clarification to include distribution under the general and admittedly loose concept of production, I’ve kept things to a specific period (roughly 1935 to 1995), discussed a specific mass audience (white, Christian, English-speaking), described the industry centres that catered (or pandered, if you prefer) to that audience, and used that to present what’s generally understood as “mainstream” mass media on a national and international scale.

Comment #69: Gracchus.  on  05/04  at  06:53 PM

They dream of white picket fences, casserole dishes, going fishing on the weekends, fill in your cultural stereotype.  But the Southwest doesn’t look or feel quite like that image.  It’s fewer white picket fences and more cactus gardens.  It’s less green bean casserole and more enchiladas.  The Christmas traditions were less sleigh rides and more luminarios.  It’s less cities named Indianapolis and Cleveland and more named El Paso and Santa Fe.  The oldest historical landmarks aren’t revolutionary war memorials or the homes of prestigious Victorians, but Spanish missions and Native American ruins.  It’s less tree-lined streets that give comfort and closeness, and more broad desert vistas that make you feel a little small while the world looks big and old.

First off, I totally agree.  There is no real America.

But as someone who grew up in El Paso, attended and graduated college in nearby Las Cruces, and now lives in the Albuquerque area…well, you could pretty much take that entire paragraph and flip it around.  The so-called quintessential Midwestern, white bread, America is alien to me.  A little scary, even.

Comment #70: adobedragon  on  05/04  at  06:56 PM

This discussion reminds me of the Nine Nations of North America, especially when Gracchus said the USA is more like a state, not a nation.

That’s almost the category error of the Know-Nothings: they’re rabid nationalists in a country that was designed to de-emphasise rabid nationalism.

I do agree that we are MORE a state than a nation, but not as much of an artificial state as say, Belgium, or even the USSR in it’s heyday.

We’re a state in the sense that the only unifying factor inside our border was intended to be the Constitution. Not bald eagles, not leaders or soldiers, not economic status, not language (I’ll grant that they took some time getting to “not ethnic background”). And not religion—definitely not blood religion.

Our Constitution is just as much an artifact as the Soviet one (which has to shoehorn in economic status and a diverse “post-imperial” hodge-podge of ethnic states) or the Belgian one (which has to deal with nasty ethnic/nationalist issues). The U.S. Constitution, while not perfect or invulnerable to subtraction, is extraordinarily well-designed and benefits from unique advantages deriving from geography and the historical context of its framing (i.e. good fortune).

Comment #71: Gracchus.  on  05/04  at  06:56 PM

It’s so bizarre how in the upper midwest there’s a lot of French place names and yet that’s not treated with hostility and/or mispronounciation (ok maybe some yah sure you betcha) like the Southwest Spanish place names.

The reason why there’s less hostility is because the French colonists and their descendants are white Europeans, whereas most Spanish speakers in the U.S. are brown skinned.

But as far as mispronunciation, there’s actually quite a bit of it in the two French-founded American cities I’m most familiar with, St. Louis and New Orleans.  Choteau, Lafayette, Freret are all French place and street names that I’ve heard mangled by natives of both cities.  And of course, the most commonly spoken American pronunciations of the names of these two cities are also bastardizations of how they should be properly pronounced in French.

Comment #72: DTG in STL  on  05/04  at  06:58 PM

Just to further clarify, CBrachyrhynchos, I don’t claim that “mainstream” = “the Real America.” What I do claim is that the Know-Nothings have appropriated the media “mainstream” into an illusory version of “the Real America.” Which is what Amanda seems to be arguing as well.

Comment #73: Gracchus.  on  05/04  at  06:59 PM

Gracchus—

Would you say Brazil is a nation, or state? They’re the closest mirror image of the USA I can think of—a continent-sized, diverse (both in race and geography) federal republic. I think they’re halfway, just like we are. There’s an “American nation” just like there’s a “Brazilian nation” but what it means to an “American” or “Brazilian” is much less restrictive than what it means to be, say, Swedish or Japanese.

Comment #74: Ben D.  on  05/04  at  07:05 PM

And to clarify further, if you ask a Belgian “what are you?” I bet you’ll get “Flemish” just as often as you’d get “Belgian”, whereas if you asked an American “What are you?” you’d be much more likely to get “American” rather than any ethnic group, or the state they live in.

Comment #75: Ben D.  on  05/04  at  07:08 PM

Thank you for this!  I think that this new law and anti-hispanic immigration sentiment more generally stems from people trying to enforce a political border that was drawn across an established cultural landscape.

Comment #76: bellacoker  on  05/04  at  07:14 PM

I’m a ninth generation Texan.  My country’s history doesn’t start with some pilgrims on the East Coast. It starts in the Rio Grande Valley with a Spanish land grant. 

I always find it interesting that a good hunk of our country was really settled by the Spanish, yet that history is sort of washed over pretty quickly, unless you happen to have grown up in one of those states.  Each state’s history is unimportant to the rest until they joined the Union. 

I don’t know much about Arizona, but I’ve lived in Texas, California and have spent substantial time in New Mexico.  The influence of Hispanic culture is all over the place, especially in place names and local restaurants and musical influences and the architectrue and all sorts of other cultural and social subtle ways.  But also in the people. 

There are brown people everywhere.  I can’t imagine how to even begin to impliment a law like that just passed in Arizona’s in Houston, because there are just so many brown people here.  Some of us grew up bilingual, some of us can’t say a word in Spanish.  We’re in every industry, every neighborhood, every school.  I suppose, if you didn’t grow up here, if you moved from someplace with a more English-centric focus, it’d be jarring to see the Chinese waiters yelling out orders to the line cooks in Spanish.  Or to have the radio dial dominated by Spanish language stations.  Or to have your children growing up speaking Spanish because the best valued nannies don’t speak much English.

But then, I can’t really envision living in a monocultural place with uniform hue and language.  It’d be jarring to me, too.

Comment #77: 'stina  on  05/04  at  07:16 PM

It’s so bizarre how in the upper midwest there’s a lot of French place names and yet that’s not treated with hostility and/or mispronounciation.

As someone who grew up next to the Des Plaines River (pronounced “Diss Planes”) in Illinois, I’m sorry to have to tell you that you’re completely wrong.  “Foreign” names in the Midwest get completely butchered, whether they’re French, German, Italian, or some other foreign language.  The only thing we kinda-sorta pronounce right is the name of the state, because we pronounce it without the S.  (Illi-noy, not Illi-noise.)

If you’re ever in Chicago and need directions to Goethe St., make sure you pronounce it “Gothey,” or they won’t know what the heck you’re talking about.

Comment #78: Mnemosyne  on  05/04  at  07:17 PM

@71: Because you’re rather arbitrarily excluding works and genres that were both appropriative and hugely popular with that specific mass audience. The Crosby-Astaire movie Holiday Inn broke box office numbers in its first year, was a seasonal television staple for decades, and included both consciously referential jazz and blackface numbers. This wasn’t a “cross-over fluke,” it was a standard formula in Broadway, Hollywood, and the recording industry that made them money hand over fist, and included Crosby, Astaire, Sinatra, and perhaps most famously Clooney.

The relationships between the mass media, ethnic groups, and American regionalism are hugely complex, and I don’t think it really does service to say that it’s all created by NYC and LA.

Comment #79: CBrachyrhynchos  on  05/04  at  07:38 PM

whereas if you asked an American “What are you?” you’d be much more likely to get “American” rather than any ethnic group, or the state they live in.

I don’t know how common this is in other parts of the country, but most of the time when I’ve asked white Americans “what are you?” in relation to their ancestry, they usually say “Irish”, “German”, “French”, “Bosnian”, “Hungarian”, “Sicilian”, “Welsh”, or often “Irish and German mutt” (very common in St. Louis), etc.

When someone responds to a question of their geneology by saying “American” it raises a red flag to me that the person may be a hardcore rightwinger nativist tool.  Not always, but typically dependent on the tone in which they answer the question - especially if it carries an air of arrogance - I can tell that they are very invested in the idea that they are part of the 20%ers that considers themselves to be the only “Real Americans”.

Comment #80: DTG in STL  on  05/04  at  07:47 PM

DTG - Most of the people I know who say “American” do so because they are so many generations removed from their country of origin that it holds no meaning for them.

Comment #81: Mark  on  05/04  at  07:51 PM

<blockquote>I don’t know how common this is in other parts of the country, but most of the time when I’ve asked white Americans “what are you?” in relation to their ancestry, they usually say “Irish”, “German”, “French”, “Bosnian”, “Hungarian”, “Sicilian”, “Welsh”, or often “Irish and German mutt” (very common in St. Louis), etc.

Yeah, but what if a foreigner asked them “what are you?” when they’re visiting overseas?

Comment #82: Ben D.  on  05/04  at  07:53 PM

DTG - Most of the people I know who say “American” do so because they are so many generations removed from their country of origin that it holds no meaning for them.

This happens where I live 90% of the time. It’s actually what I would put down if I got a long-form census. Why? Here you’re usually either far, far removed from your country of origin (even if you know it) or are black and know your ancestors have been here since at least 1808. The other 9% of the time would mostly be “African-American”.  The south wasn’t exactly a magnet for immigrants in the 19th and 20th Centuries, unlike the North and Midwest.

Comment #83: Ben D.  on  05/04  at  07:55 PM

@83: Well yeah. I can trace ancestors to the Mayflower and the American Revolution. My language is peppered with distinctly Wabash-Valley rural colloquialisms and German loanwords. Along the way I have a couple of bastards of uncertain parentage and someone killed by a mule. For me to claim Scots, Irish, or German heritage would be just an affectation.

Comment #84: CBrachyrhynchos  on  05/04  at  07:57 PM

And, as a descendant of both the American Revolution and the Mayflower, I have absolutely no quams in telling “real-America” conservatives to fuck off.

Comment #85: CBrachyrhynchos  on  05/04  at  08:00 PM

I can’t imagine how to even begin to impliment a law like that just passed in Arizona’s in Houston, because there are just so many brown people here.

Not that I ever want to see it happen, but it really wouldn’t be much different from doing it in Phoenix.

Houston is America’s 4th largest city… but Phoenix has recently become the 5th largest city, and it is growing at an even faster rate than Houston.  These two cities and their surrounding counties (Harris and Maricopa) are among the top five metropolitan areas in terms of Hispanic populations in the country.  They have very similar proportions of Hispanic residents in relation to their overall populations.

Comment #86: DTG in STL  on  05/04  at  08:01 PM

DTG - Most of the people I know who say “American” do so because they are so many generations removed from their country of origin that it holds no meaning for them.

That makes sense, though it’s been my experience that most people who are either of Italian ancestry or Irish ancestry very proudly proclaim their roots here in St. Louis.  We even have ethnic neighborhoods that distinctly reflect those roots… The Hill is the Italian neighborhood (it has one of the largest concentrations of Italian restaurants not in NYC), Dogtown is mostly Irish, and more recently, Bevo Mill has become the city’s Bosnian district (St. Louis has the largest Bosnian immigrant population in the U.S., most of whom arrived in the 1990s when their native country was embroiled in civil war).

Comment #87: DTG in STL  on  05/04  at  08:14 PM

(St. Louis has the largest Bosnian immigrant population in the U.S., most of whom arrived in the 1990s when their native country was embroiled in civil war).

Bosnians were consciously steered here and other midwestern cities because of the cheap and plentiful housing stock. As a result, South St. Louis was about 20% Bosnian within about 5 years, which would explain why signs at Cardinal Glennon are in English, Spanish, Vietnamese, and Serbo-Croatian. The influx probably saved the city from circling the drain a la Detroit.

Comment #88: Dr. Squid  on  05/04  at  08:38 PM

“Foreign” names in the Midwest get completely butchered, whether they’re French, German, Italian, or some other foreign language.  The only thing we kinda-sorta pronounce right is the name of the state, because we pronounce it without the S.  (Illi-noy, not Illi-noise.)

Then there’s the very French name of my home city - Detroit - which I’ve never heard pronounced “correctly” in common usage by anyone except by a group of travelers from (not surprisingly) France who were waiting for a connecting flight at Metro Airport.

Comment #89: Linnaeus  on  05/04  at  08:40 PM

Because you’re rather arbitrarily excluding works and genres that were both appropriative and hugely popular with that specific mass audience. The Crosby-Astaire movie Holiday Inn broke box office numbers in its first year, was a seasonal television staple for decades, and included both consciously referential jazz and blackface numbers. This wasn’t a “cross-over fluke,” it was a standard formula in Broadway, Hollywood, and the recording industry that made them money hand over fist, and included Crosby, Astaire, Sinatra, and perhaps most famously Clooney.

I didn’t exclude anything, except the concept of “American national culture” operating on the same terms as “French national culture” or “German national culture”—because (as the title of the post says) there is no Real America, and barely (in comparison to others) an American nation.

What I’m arguing is that the closest thing we have to an “American national culture” are the collective products of the mass media during the period I mentioned, and that the closest thing ain’t nearly close enough. We have many national cultures, but pieces of it only make it into the illusory “American national culture” conservatives like to talk about through a lot of industrial processing and market-testing.

Your example from Holiday Inn shows the mass media mainstreaming agenda at work: striving to appease both “the kids” (with watered-down jazz) and the adults (with a minstrel number that can be taken as the individual audience member prefers). Both groups, of course, are part of a white majority.

Taken together you have a mainstream media product—one which appropriates otherwise “unsuitable” niche material, takes out the spicy bits and makes it mild (I don’t think either Jellyroll Morton before or Dave Brubeck after would classify that number as jazz), smooths it out and adds dashes of vague blandness (a blackface number ... about Lincoln!) for an identified market. The end result of such a process isn’t necessarily bad (I like that movie a lot), but it’s a processed industrial product rather than an organic one. Non-mainstream stuff is still distributed for niche audiences, but it’s not intended for the widest possible audience. Sometimes the mainstream envelope is pushed from the inside or outside, but never too far. That was the situation until very recently.

Holiday Inn is still shown on TV, being correctly acknowledged a classic product of American mainstream mass media. And continuing in the fine tradition of making the product as palatable as possible for the widest possible audience, guess which sequence is routinely cut from airings.

.. sort of like how the Know-Nothings cut all the nasty bits out of their perfect 1950s wonderland—itself a product (bringing things back to my original comment) of a mainstream mass media that they confuse with real American national culture, not to mention actual history.

Comment #90: Gracchus.  on  05/04  at  09:06 PM

Don’t forget about Massachusetts, conservatives hate that state more than New York or California.  But when Scott Brown got elected, they conveniently forgot about all their hate for the state.

Comment #91: Albert Cirrus  on  05/04  at  10:02 PM

I’m not sure how living in Cobble Hill for three months would give you much of a perspective on anything, except maybe a somewhat better than totally superficial idea of what Cobble Hill is like. I moved here from the Southwest, too, now over ten years ago. Not sure how deeply I understand either place. Not very much beyond the weather, I’m pretty sure.

Comment #92: chuckling  on  05/04  at  10:11 PM

@82

When someone responds to a question of their geneology by saying “American” it raises a red flag to me that the person may be a hardcore rightwinger nativist tool.  Not always, but typically dependent on the tone in which they answer the question - especially if it carries an air of arrogance - I can tell that they are very invested in the idea that they are part of the 20%ers that considers themselves to be the only “Real Americans”.

I get where you are coming from, but I’m one of those “so far removed” type DTG mentioned that I wouldn’t know what else to say, except maybe “Southern” or “Georgian” (where I spent my childhood) or “Nashvillian” (where I live now).” By their names my four grandparents are French, English, Scottish, and French-by-way-of-England. Does that make me Breto-Gallic? No, but I’m tempted to write it on on my census form just to mess with their heads! smile

Comment #93: Theron  on  05/04  at  10:22 PM

DBK - I’m originally from the Upper Midwest (southeastern Michigan, near Detroit) and I now live in Baltimore, and I’ve also noticed that despite the whole myth of Midwesterners being so nice, people here are much nicer and more helpful than they were in Michigan.  I’ve been to New York a few times and I’ve noticed there, too, that the “asshole Noo Yawker” stereotype didn’t hold up.  I found people quite helpful when I went there (not everyone, but enough that I think the stereotype isn’t fair).

Also, I think part of the reason people often don’t like New York teams is because of the way that the media often focuses more on those teams than ones from other cities.  I just know that as the child of a Tigers fan and an Orioles fan I was bred to hate the Yankees and I don’t think that disliking them correlates to a dislike of the city (because I love New York).

Comment #94: Erda  on  05/05  at  12:22 AM

Amanda @21:
My mother is from Lake Jackson, where I lived for a year as a child, so I know Texas.  I was born in Iowa and have lived and/or worked for extended periods in the midwest, CA, PNW, Arkansas, Texas and now the northeast. 
Dallas may be what you consider midwestern, but you are dead wrong.

Comment #95: helen w. h.  on  05/05  at  09:45 AM

Sorry @25.

Comment #96: helen w. h.  on  05/05  at  09:46 AM

@92: My point is that not only was the mass media liberally appropriating and homogenizing regional influences, but they were also explicitly pointing back at their sources to say, “look where we found this.” It’s probably a practice that goes back to the Roman Empire.

Comment #97: CBrachyrhynchos  on  05/05  at  10:10 AM

The south wasn’t exactly a magnet for immigrants in the 19th and 20th Centuries, unlike the North and Midwest.

Not from overseas, but a lot of people from Kansas moved from there to TX in the late 19th Century and during the Dustbowl era.

TX was a popular destination for folks from TN like my own Avenger ancestor in the 19th Century as well as other Southern American states, heck, one of my cousins’ had a grandfather who moved from TN to TX twice(his father went and retrieved him from TX despite the fact that said grandfather was over 21, so I presume he took steps that made the second time more permanent grin  ).

helen, as someone who has lived in TX, Amanda is correct in that it’s more Midwestern than the rest of TX, and I did go to school at the Harvard of the Midwest for 3.5 years, so I know what I’m talking about.

Comment #98: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  05/05  at  11:14 AM

Erda, maybe it doesn’t correlate to a dislike of those cities, but it does kind of migrate outwards from there.  Maybe the sports teams are the source, like being patient zero for New York hatred or something.  I’m not that into analyzing it; it’s just something I’ve observed.

Not to drag the discussion too far off-topic, but I never saw the homophobia anywhere that I have encountered here.  It is casual and drops into conversations frequently.  I can’t remember the last time I heard someone say something homophobic to me when I lived back east.  I’m sure the homophobia still exists there, too, but I think it is far less prevalent and far less accepted.  In fact, the entire idea of isolating some group as “the other” and then hating it seems to be more prevalent here than back east (well, in the Northeast, to be precise).  But, to get back on-topic, gay people are America too.

In short, I find the Midwest, or at least the upper Midwest, to be exceptionally parochial and provincial.  There are things I love here, but it’s a teensy bit of America.

Comment #99: DBK  on  05/05  at  11:24 AM

In short, I find the Midwest, or at least the upper Midwest, to be exceptionally parochial and provincial.  There are things I love here, but it’s a teensy bit of America.

That’s a common charge, and it has some grain of truth to it, but as one born and raised in the upper Midwest, I’ve found that parochialism exists pretty much everywhere I’ve been in the United States to some degree or another.  The flavors are different, but it’s there.  I don’t think the Midwest is exceptional in that regard.

Comment #100: Linnaeus  on  05/05  at  12:24 PM

DA,
Dallas may be more Midwestern than the rest of Texas, but no more so than Beaumont is to LA, El Paso is to NM/AZ/CA, etc.  So, in other words, not at all Midwestern in reality, except in comparison to within its own state (a point I seemingly share with Phoebe Fae).  Dallas seems to have much more in common with Houston than with Chicago.

Comment #101: helen w. h.  on  05/05  at  12:34 PM

Hell, I grew up in Brooklyn.  Manhattan was “the city,” and to go to college in another state was almost unthinkable.

Comment #102: syfr  on  05/05  at  01:02 PM

Idaho has two very distinctly seperate cultures;  WA 2 or 3; MA 2; NY 2or 3; LA at least 3, etc.

Also, I tend to say American because the list is too long and known to be incomplete. (What are you? Um, American.  No, where are your ancestors from? Mostly northern Europe.  But where? Briton, Scotland, Ireland, Wales, France, Germany, Bohemia, some other places with some NA and probably AA mixed in from the “French” “ca’jun” side….

Comment #103: helen w. h.  on  05/06  at  12:53 PM

Amanda, your observations about Texas echo those made by Joel Garreau in his 1981 book The Nine Nations of North America.  He divided Texas up into pretty much those same regions: West Texas was part of the Southwest, which Garreau nicknamed Mexamerica; East Texas was part of the South, aka Dixie; and the panhandle/Dallas area was part of the Midwest, aka The Breadbasket.

Comment #104: Johnny Pez  on  05/06  at  11:37 PM
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