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Next entry: I Was A Preteen Bookworm Previous entry: You want more cooking?  Then you want more feminism.

There’s A Whole Racial Thing Here, But You Know What?  Fuck It

imageBob Herbert wrote a barnburner (!) of a column about the Skip Gates fiasco which makes two primary claims about racism in America.  The first contention is that there are still hugely disparate outcomes in the criminal justice system depending on your color and the second is that we’re never going to have this conversation because people would rather talk about almost anything else on the face of the planet.

People like overlooking racism because its entire point is to skew the functional working of various systems towards majority actors in a way that becomes enshrined and intertwined with the system.  People don’t like facing racism because it’s like looking at a giant leak in a dam - chances are the only way to fix it is to do a massive amount of work that will take time, money and the dam builders admitting that they fucked up.  What inevitably ends up happening is that you have someone running to say that the real problem with the dam is the water, or the weather, or the fact that dam-demagogues (damagogues?) are just trying to overstate the issue, coupled with someone from the tiny hamlet about to be crushed by the oncoming tidal wave declaring that their lawn is parched, just parched, and the water will help them.

Filling in the first role is Commentary’s Jennifer Rubin.  Bob Herbert made the following contention:

Black people need to roar out their anger at such treatment, lift up their voices and demand change. Anyone counseling a less militant approach is counseling self-defeat. As of mid-2008, there were 4,777 black men imprisoned in America for every 100,000 black men in the population. By comparison, there were only 727 white male inmates per 100,000 white men.

While whites use illegal drugs at substantially higher percentages than blacks, black men are sent to prison on drug charges at 13 times the rate of white men.

Rubin responds with:

Bob Herbert is convinced minorities are the victims of a disproportionate number of police stops. But wait – they commit a disproportionate number of crimes, as his own statistics show. (As of mid-2008, there were 4,777 black men imprisoned in America for every 100,000 black men in the population. By comparison, there were only 727 white male inmates per 100,000 white men.) Unless one is to believe there is an undetected crime wave of white criminals (or wrongfully convicted blacks), it seems there isn’t anything terribly awry here.

What really helps our dialogue on race is when someone says “there’s an undetected/unpunished crime wave of white criminals and wrongly convicted blacks” and then someone else comes along and says, “I wish someone had said exactly that, but nobody did, so I hope Melissa wins Next Food Network Star”. 

I’ve done some court watching this summer, and the one thing I’ve noticed above all else is the degree to which black people get pulled over…and pulled over…and pulled over.  I think the main reason NASCAR isn’t that popular among black people is that we’re not used to seeing anyone drive that long without being stopped and asked what we’re doing in the area.  Now, even if black people and white people commit crimes at similar rates, there are a lot more opportunities for black people to be caught, because we’re on the side of the road having plain sight searches done on us at a far greater rate (something which, of course, is justified by the far higher rates of black convictions which are in no way connected to this phenomenon because hey look New Jack City?). 

Then, of course, we have John McWhorter, who comes along and says that even though there’s a clearly disparate impact on minorities in the War on Drugs, the main solution is to stop talking about it, end the War on Drugs, and then enter into a land where we no longer have the “victim-focused teachings” of such terrible race baiters as Bob Herbert.  His point, even thought he admits that there’s a racial disparity, is that our policies are simply punishing the types of crimes that black people like to commit, which makes perfect sense - I’ll tell you why just as soon as I go to the store and pick up some brown paper bags.  I just feel this innate need to hand shit off to people on the streets, you know?

Now, a rational person might ask why the War on Drugs seems to have spurred such a violent and destructive phenomenon disproportionately focused on poor black urban communities, but that would involve being “victim-focused” (i.e., believing that racism exists), which should be done away with at all costs.  I also highly recommend that when your genitals start burning after a one-night stand, you should stalk your former partner rather than go to the doctor, because otherwise you’re just too victim-focused. 

 

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Posted by Jesse Taylor on 09:26 AM • (78) Comments

Seriously, the notion that there’s not an undetected white crime wave is laughable.  Unless you believe that when a black person has drugs, that’s a crime, but when a white person does, that’s just fun.

Comment #1: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/02  at  09:57 AM

The reason that white America will not acknowledge or talk about the ongoing issue of racism is because it would force them to admit that they do not really deserve everything that they have and that they have to give up the part that that they acquired unfairly.  As to the issue of blacks (and other minorities who are also over represented in our prison populations), there are numerous studies which have shown systematic disparities in outcomes between whites and non-whites at every stage of the criminal justice process from getting stopped to how long you serve and whether you get parole.  There was even one by the Bush II DoJ.  As Amanda says, there is indeed a widespread “undetected” white crime wave (except that it is less undetected than ignored).  FWIW, I am a middle aged white guy who grew up in Oklahoma under Jim Crow and segregation.

Comment #2: DrDick  on  08/02  at  10:14 AM

It is simply mindboggling that someone could read that paragraph written by Bob Herbert and wilfully misread it to such an extent that you produce the paragraph written by Jennifer Rubin.

How can a brain do that without exploding?

Comment #3: Katherine  on  08/02  at  10:25 AM

Even without the “war on drugs”, there’s a pretty broad swatch of power-based crimes which go ignored/unpunished, such as fraud, violation of labor laws, etc. Which yes, is mostly white males that are guilty of.

There for sure is a white crime wave that’s undetected. If you don’t see that, IMO you have no right to be commenting about anything. Go flip some burgers for a while and get some perspective.

Comment #4: Karmakin  on  08/02  at  10:29 AM

Anyone who thinks that racial disparities in our prison population are the complete result of a difference in the rate of crimes committed by black and white individuals is kidding themselves.  And preventing any meaningful discussion of how to better implement our justice system and police our communities.

But, in addition to the racial angle, prison reform and getting rid of unconstitutional sex offender laws are hardly popular issues.  People like punishing the bad guys, social consequences be damned.

Comment #5: FashionablyEvil  on  08/02  at  11:13 AM

While whites use illegal drugs at substantially higher percentages than blacks, black men are sent to prison on drug charges at 13 times the rate of white men.

I’d like to know what data Bob Herbert is using. All I have is this:

an estimated 49 percent of whites and 42.9 percent of blacks age 12 or older have used illicit drugs in their lifetime; 14.5 percent of whites and 16 percent of blacks have used illicit drugs in the past year; and 8.5 percent of whites and 9.8 percent of blacks have used an illicit drug in the past month

In that study, illegal drug use is roughly equal. Arrest rates are still outrageously disproportionate, of course, and Herbert is obviously correct that there will be no resolution without black people getting mad and then getting organized.

Comment #6: asdf  on  08/02  at  11:14 AM

Unless one is to believe there is an undetected crime wave of white criminals (or wrongfully convicted blacks), it seems there isn’t anything terribly awry here.

I wonder what circle Rubin hangs out in, because among a lot of the white people I know, they do drugs, and are never caught/under suspicion/searched.  I know someone who’s been hooked on every drug that you can think of (except prescription ones) and not once has she ever been to jail for it.  All of the white pot smokers I know have never been arrested or searched for it.  Of the non-white people I know who’ve done drugs (which, admittedly, is not many), a majority of them have spent some time in jail for it.  But still…Rubin doesn’t know anyone with a drug habit?  Not even a “doctor shopper”?

And that’s not even touching the fact that there are wrongfully convicted black people.  Weren’t there a few highly publicized rape cases a few years back that highlighted this?  That after DNA testing, the people who had been convicted had been proven innocent?  And the overturn of death row convictions for those who are less than white?

Hell, I don’t care what circles she hangs out in.  I want to know what planet she’s from.

Comment #7: SporkeyO  on  08/02  at  11:15 AM

(Did not mean to derail the conversation by throwing in the sex offender card—it’s just another aspect of the prison system that makes me furious because of people’s inability to acknowledge reality, e.g., that people aren’t rational about race and imprisonment or prison policy in general.)

Comment #8: FashionablyEvil  on  08/02  at  11:15 AM

I work in a prison and I’m going to speak in very large generalities here.  First of all, the white guys make the most furious inmates.  To the black and brown-skinned, there is some level of acceptance that their gang and drug activity makes prison an expected (and maddeningly acceptable) part of their lives.  But to the white guys, their motorcycle gang crimes, drug-addled larceny, and even their sex crimes have a sort of “You have to understand, I was just going about my business” tone as they talk to me.  And I don’t think it’s entirely because I’m another white guy and they feel safe to talk to me that way.  Inmates as a whole generally believe that they were in the right to do whatever to so-and-so because it was part of business.  But it’s the white guys who have an expectation, even after they were convicted, that they shouldn’t actually be punished for it.

It’s not too surprising that many juries, police officers, and prosecutors would share this perception to some degree.  Poverty, education, the availability of guns and drugs, mental health issues, and other things can’t be ignored, but images of different races’ criminals are definitely a huge part of what puts people under the law’s control in disproportional ways.

Comment #9: 3letterjon  on  08/02  at  11:38 AM

A friend of mine from work (a black woman a couple years older than me) told me once that the biggest fear she had when she had a son was knowing that, as he got older, in the eyes of many police and other people he was automatically under suspicion and probably guilty of something, and that she would have to tell her innocent, loving, trusting son about the cruelty of the world he lived in, and help bring a dark cloud (no pun intended) into his view of life.

She has a daughter too, but is/was less worried.  Her daughter might be followed around in a store as if she was a potential shoplifter (which is plenty bad enough), but her son would literally be considered a suspect just for being being black anywhere, especially if he was in the “wrong” place.

I’ve heard many similar things from many other people I’ve known over the years who live on the other side of the “color line” from me, and that’s probably why the Gates thing pissed me off immediately…

Comment #10: MikeEss  on  08/02  at  12:01 PM

But it’s the white guys who have an expectation, even after they were convicted, that they shouldn’t actually be punished for it.

THIS.  The sense of entitlement, even after being convicted for a crime, is staggering. I’ve heard some protest, “But I’m not a criminal!” after admitting to the crime.  What they’re really saying is, “But I’m not a black!”

Comment #11: BadKitty  on  08/02  at  12:05 PM

The reluctance among whites to deal with the issue is IMHO largely due to their not understanding the difference between being responsible for something and being to blame for it. Most white people don’t undertake overtly racist actions, and most of them look back on slavery/Jim Crow and are totally appalled. But they don’t want to talk about it because they think they’re going to get called racists and then have to defend themselves. They don’t want to get lumped in with the crazy KKKers, and, since the rhetoric around the subject is rarely non-incendiary, they don’t want to talk about it at all for fear of just that.

Comment #12: felagund  on  08/02  at  12:16 PM

BadKitty, that’s exactly how my rationalization for driving when maybe I shouldn’t goes—“Well, I’m a white, upper-middle class woman with an advanced degree who will be driving through majority black neighborhoods on the way home.  People like me don’t get in trouble.”

Comment #13: FashionablyEvil  on  08/02  at  12:16 PM

But wait – they commit a disproportionate number of crimes, as his own statistics show.

Prison population breakdowns are not proof of crime rates.  Someone being in prison does not prove they committed a crime, it proves they were convicted of one.  Moreover, someone NOT being in prison is not proof that they DIDN’T commit a crime.

Furthermore, what with length of sentence varying by crime and by individual prosecution as it does, the people whose sentences have already been carried out—-because they are shorter—-are unrepresented in an analysis of who’s in prison.  They may have committed the same crime, but they aren’t counted, by this measure, as being criminals.  And a racial bias that leads to blacks being sentenced for longer over the same crimes will result in a prison population that’s skewed black, compared with the conviction rate (itself skewed for the same reasons, as pointed out above), because whites leave faster.  It’s like a funnel with a wider opening—-you’ll have less liquid in it, even if it’s poured at the same rate, than one with a small opening.

Unless one is to believe there is an undetected crime wave of white criminals (or wrongfully convicted blacks), it seems there isn’t anything terribly awry here.

Undetected, yes, because they’re not looking for it to the same extent they look for black criminals.  See also, undersentencing and underconviction because they’re not treating white-committed crime as seriously as black-committed crime.  With blacks, the authorities are concerned with “getting the criminal off the streets.”  With whites, they’re often more concerned with “let’s not ruin this nice young man’s life over some juvenile mistakes or a little display of temper.”

Comment #14: Kyra  on  08/02  at  12:29 PM

Fegalund, I think that’s completely true.  I try to think of my own racist thoughts like any other nasty thought based on stereotypes: things that I should recognize, examine, and work to overcome.

I also happen to love this video for how to talk about racism: talking about what someone did, rather than what they are:

“The ‘what they are conversation’ is a rhetorical Bermuda triangle where everything drowns in a sea of empty posturing until somebody just blames it all on hip hop and we forget the whole thing ever happened.”

Comment #15: FashionablyEvil  on  08/02  at  12:31 PM

I wonder how the prison figures would look if the rate of poor whites being stopped and questioned and searched was the same as the number of poor blacks…

Comment #16: Woodrowfan  on  08/02  at  12:33 PM

I’ve done diversity training sessions, and what we were taught was that everyone has unconscious “scripts” regarding their own identity groups and others, and that the point of the training was to make conscious those scripts.  Well, people seemed okay with talking about this once they’d been given permission: they seemed okay with having those conversations about race.

The conversations about race that make people uncomfortable, and that they’re not willing to talk about, are conversations about privilege and power: when we all left the building, having done the talking in the diversity training, some of us were going to have a lot more power and privilege than others, or at least different kinds of power and privilege.  There’s an even-handedness to the Gates case story that is emerging—the “both men acted badly” meme, the meme that both men were running those scripts—and the White House invitation extended that.  (And I thought it was funny that Biden was invited to even things up—God forbid a member of the majority group experience what members of minority groups experience every day, being outnumbered.)  The fact is that Crowley had a lot more power in the situation than Gates did; Gates tried to appeal to his privilege but was unsuccessful in part because his privilege was limited to his job title and didn’t include his racial identity. 

We’re okay with talking about race if we don’t talk about institutional racism (how privilege and power are allocated in our society).  But until we do we’re not going to get anywhere.

Comment #17: BetsyD  on  08/02  at  12:34 PM

I did tons of drugs in college, and I’m smart enough to realize that I probably would have be in prison right now for it had I (1) been black and (2) not in college. Mostly because then I would have been buying them on the street instead of from trusted friends, and I would have likely been the victim of a police sting operation or some such thing.

Comment #18: Ben D.  on  08/02  at  12:36 PM

Also, if you’re white and using drugs, you’re just a harmless stoner. If you’re black, you could be a dangerous criminal/thug. Or at least that’s how it’s seen.

Comment #19: Ben D.  on  08/02  at  12:38 PM

Furthermore, what with length of sentence varying by crime and by individual prosecution as it does, the people whose sentences have already been carried out—-because they are shorter—-are unrepresented in an analysis of who’s in prison.

Kyra, I hadn’t thought about that part of it. Thanks for bringing it up.

Comment #20: asdf  on  08/02  at  12:43 PM

asdf: From the study you cite, it seems to me that 49% qualifies as “substantially higher” than 43%, certainly for rhetorical purposes in an op-ed.

Comment #21: BABH  on  08/02  at  01:18 PM

There for sure is a white crime wave that’s undetected. If you don’t see that, IMO you have no right to be commenting about anything.

I’m pretty sure that you could put those examples in front of them, but they wouldn’t call it a “crime wave.” Stealing from where you work is called “shrinkage” (and sometimes winked at by management as a means of giving workers and outlet to blow off steam) and drug use is called “youthful experimentation.” Even when some serious white collar crime occurs, the perpetrator is “quietly asked to leave.” Nothing is really wrong with this: sometimes it’s just not worth one’s while to press charges, but we’re classifying some people as “criminals” and others as simply “ne’er-do-wells” based on who they are rather than what they do.

Comment #22: Tyro  on  08/02  at  01:34 PM

Not to mention the whole prison industrial complex has the side effect of legally disenfranchising a large percentage of black voters.  It never made sense to me from a purely legal standpoint why you would lose your right to vote once you go to prison, but as a tool in a systematic oppression it’s damn effective.

Comment #23: Godless Heathen  on  08/02  at  01:44 PM

I started smoking pot in my teens. In my 20’s I did tons of coke.  In my late 20’s I switched back to the pot.  In my 30’s I got into painkillers.  I’m 40 now, and I stick with the pot, although if I have any kind of reason that a doctor gives me vicodon for, I will finish, and enjoy every single pill, though once I realized what they do to your liver, I no longer seek them out. 

I have never been checked for drugs no less arrested. 

I think I would have been if I wasn’t white.

Comment #24: Lady Vader  on  08/02  at  01:58 PM

I wonder how the prison figures would look if the rate of poor whites being stopped and questioned and searched was the same as the number of poor blacks…

Poor whites?  I’d like to see what it’d look like if they started going into wall street firms and checking the bathrooms.  “It’s snowing in the men’s room” is a phrase thrown around quite openly there.  I’ve worked there and I know.

Comment #25: Lady Vader  on  08/02  at  02:01 PM

The reluctance among whites to deal with the issue is IMHO largely due to their not understanding the difference between being responsible for something and being to blame for it. Most white people don’t undertake overtly racist actions, and most of them look back on slavery/Jim Crow and are totally appalled. But they don’t want to talk about it because they think they’re going to get called racists and then have to defend themselves. They don’t want to get lumped in with the crazy KKKers, and, since the rhetoric around the subject is rarely non-incendiary, they don’t want to talk about it at all for fear of just that.

In particular, people don’t get that “you benefit from centuries of black oppression” = “you are racist against black people.”

Comment #26: Rebecca  on  08/02  at  02:04 PM

sorry, that should be =/= or != of course.

Comment #27: Rebecca  on  08/02  at  02:04 PM

I think the main reason NASCAR isn’t that popular among black people is that we’re not used to seeing anyone drive that long without being stopped and asked what we’re doing in the area.

That made me LOL.  Someone call Bartlett’s…

Comment #28: Captain Bathrobe  on  08/02  at  02:08 PM

BABH, to speak of those people who are currently users of illegal drugs, we’d have to use the much lower rates of 8.5 and 9.8%, so close that the margins of error probably overlap.

Comment #29: asdf  on  08/02  at  02:09 PM

The reason that white America will not acknowledge or talk about the ongoing issue of racism is because it would force them to admit that they do not really deserve everything that they have and that they have to give up the part that that they acquired unfairly.

A large part of that is because many working class whites look around them and don’t see how their skin color has benefited them in any way. Okay, part of that is blindness to the fact that people of color in the same economic circumstances are actually worse off, but the white population isn’t generally thinking comparatively—they’re thinking about their own circumstances, and if they’re barely making it paycheck-to-paycheck, or worse, if they’re drowning, then the last thing most of them are going to want to talk about is how their skin color has gotten them some advantage. Whether or not is has is irrelevant to their lives—they don’t see it and they don’t feel it, so they’re going to deny it exists. They’re wrong, obviously, but that doesn’t make the conversation any less complicated.

Comment #30: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  08/02  at  02:10 PM

There for sure is a white crime wave that’s undetected.

It is more willfully ignored than undetected.  The fact that C-Disgustus was elected president rather than doing 20 years in the Texas State Pen is proof of this.

Comment #31: DrDick  on  08/02  at  02:14 PM

Not to mention the whole prison industrial complex has the side effect of legally disenfranchising a large percentage of black voters.  It never made sense to me from a purely legal standpoint why you would lose your right to vote once you go to prison, but as a tool in a systematic oppression it’s damn effective.

Even where this isn’t true, people still think it is. When registering voters for 2008, I had to tell several people that even though they were felons, they were allowed to vote in our state. Some of them had been out of prison for years but hadn’t registered in the meantime because they thought they weren’t allowed to. Most were eager to fill out the form and get their voice back; one guy really lit up and started thanking me for running into him. But before I sat through the voter drive training, I thought felons weren’t allowed to vote here too.

Comment #32: asdf  on  08/02  at  02:20 PM

Arrest rates are still outrageously disproportionate, of course, and Herbert is obviously correct that there will be no resolution without black people getting mad and then getting organized.
asdf on 08/02 at 06:14 AM

Correction—it is “white” people who should be getting mad, at the obvious and massive injustice of the situation, and then either using the organization we already have to correct it or creating new organization for the purposes.

If just black people get “mad” and organized, you can bet the system we’ve got will crack down hard on them. After hundreds of years of living under this very dynamic, they know it even if naive whites preserve our ignorance to pretend otherwise.

The real dynamic of the Civil Rights movement era shows that in fact, there are always mad and organized non-whites—and some of them learn to channel the anger into building common ground with whites who, in some combination:

1) recognize injustice;

2) recognize that an unjust system is a threat and a fetter even on its privileged beneficiaries;

3) feel guilty even as they avoid too much clear analysis in fear that it would make them even more uncomfortable;

4) fear the shame of being the last troglodyte on the block to still be openly supporting an obviously oppressive and unfair system.

Obviously I’ve ranked the factors of this coalition in order of their strength and integrity as allies; it is very easy to move people in category 4 right back to the forthrightly oppressive side of things. People operating mainly in 3 are on the fence and often must decide which direction they are going to move in, and will generally join the currently winning side of the debate when forced to decide.

There are and always have been people who operate from clear, deep, and well-thought out moral convictions. (And these, rather than merely “angry” people, are at the core of the minority movements as well). But I suspect the smart strategy is to expand category 2 as much as possible—to show how a racist, or otherwise systematically unjust system, is a threat and a burden on everyone, and the world would just turn more smoothly for everyone if we were nicer and more fair.

But one of the best things about this thread is that we can see here, in stark numbers, the cumulative effect of gazillions of forms of discrimination, some of them quite subtle but all tending toward the same socially evolved result, just as insects are inexorably trapped and doomed by thousands of little hairs in the throat of a pitcher plant. And then, stepping back for a sense of perspective, see the sheer magnitude of the racial oppression—black men being incarcerated at any given moment at seven times the rate of whites. To believe that this is the outcome of any fair and reasonable system of laws is to believe, whether one admits it or not, that black men are truly far worse than whites. But to accept that all the disparity reflects an established system of privilege and oppression is to face truly massive injustice.

Comment #33: Mark Foxwell  on  08/02  at  02:22 PM

So if/when we finally end the War on Drugs, how long will it take for John McWhorter to notice that black people are still getting shafted?

Comment #34: asdf  on  08/02  at  02:27 PM

Ok, I didn’t realize it wasn’t true for every state.  In Florida they take away your right to vote and you have to wait to be reinstated once you’re released.  There’s been no end of trouble with people who were legally able to vote being mistakenly purged from the rolls, sometimes by accident, and often by people who had a specific political agenda. (*cough*Republicans*cough*)

I’m not sure how it is in Ohio since I’ve only been through one general election here thus far.

Comment #35: Godless Heathen  on  08/02  at  02:44 PM

I have never been checked for drugs no less arrested.

I think I would have been if I wasn’t white.

Me too with the drugs, at least during a certain young adult phase. Me too with the never ever getting caught, or looked at funny.

But also—if I were not visibly “white” I have good reason to think I’d have been shot dead, on a certain date (the day after Thanksgiving or the day after that, on that I’m unclear now) in 1996. It was a weird situation, but the upshot was I was in the gunsights of a cop in the town of Sonoma (in the wee hours of the morning, in the high school parking lot—told you it was kind of an odd situation…) who, in the denouement, specifically told me he was that close to having “smoked me.” I may owe my life in part to the fact that his partner was a woman—at this time, I was aware via the alternative press that women were having a hard time joining and serving in any of the various police depts in Sonoma County—sheriff, city cops in Santa Rosa and the other urban jurisdictions—it was a general cultural problem, not just one department. So this particular cop might have been more even-handed, judicious, and smart than the average Sonoma county cop, to be willing to partner with a woman. Or knowing she was there too and watching might have sobered him up some.

Because in general, the same alternative press also informed me that actually, bucolic and liberal-leaning Sonoma county was one of the worst in California for police homicides—on a per capita basis we were worse than Orange or Los Angeles counties, with several people being, as the good Sonoma cop put it, “smoked” every year.

And they specifically let me know that they were lurking in that parking lot, looking for a car like mine—but operated not by white but black people.

My reasons for pulling over in that lot at that time were perfectly legal; indeed they related to something like medical necessity. My actions once I knew the police were investigating me were what put my life in immediate danger—I had the confused notion that police were very worried about people in cars pulling out concealed weapons from below the dashboard, and therefore opened the car door and got out—with my hands up to be sure. This is why the cop almost shot me. Probably anyone with any street savvy at all would not have done any such thing in the first place. In fact when I pulled into the lot, I saw the police car there—and ignored it, confident that what I was doing was necessary and legitimate and so I had nothing to fear.

But had I been driving while black, in exactly the same situation—well, probably I’d have had enough life experience by that point to make very different decisions about where to pull over, and what to do if the dark police car suddenly shone a bright spotlight on my car. Or I’d be dead or in jail for a long time already, very possibly for reasons no more illegal or immoral than my own naive white ass had that night.

Given what I did where I did it, I have no doubt whatsoever that it was my pink white skin that was the crucial decisive factor holding back that cop’s trigger finger. And if he had pulled that trigger I probably would not have survived—and once dead, Sonoma county cops would never admit they had overstepped in killing someone. They would find a reason why I deserved to die, if they had to plant cocaine in my car to do it.

That for official statistics.

Comment #36: Mark Foxwell  on  08/02  at  02:46 PM

So Jennifer Rubin was in the same statistics class as Bill O’Reilly?

FashionablyEvil, I think that Jay Smooth video should be required viewing for all Americans.

Comment #37: erinelizabeth  on  08/02  at  03:11 PM

A (liberal) friend of mine liked to use the expression “I point at the moon, but they stare at my finger.”  That seems wholly appropriate to me in this discussion.  This whole thread has turned away from why blacks are incarcerated at such a high rate to whites are just as bad, but just a whole lot better at getting away with crime.  It’s like the guy pulled over for speeding combitching to the cop that everyone else is speeding as well, and he hasn’t pulled over all of them.

What I don’t see is any expressed concern about why the crime rates among blacks are so high, and what can be done to lower such.  Trying to somehow justify black crime rates by saying that whites are just as bad doesn’t help the black community; it simply passes the buck. 

If there was one real hope I had for the man Elizabeth Gates referred to as “our dashing brown-skinned 44th president,” it was that he could use his own history as a lesson to the black community, to show them the positive results of staying in school, of working as hard as you can to become the best that you can, instead of dropping out and running with the street gangs, to educate young black adolescents growing up in our inner cities, to show them that there really are other things they can do with their lives.  He can’t do this if his friends and allies are out there excusing crimes committed by blacks by saying, look! white guys do it, too!

Comment #38: Dana  on  08/02  at  03:57 PM

This is an instance where the ‘I have a black friend!!1!’ trope would actually benefit anyone white who wants to engage in the conversation. Because if you know someone black you know someone who’s been harrassed, disregarded, passed over, abused or arrested based on the color of their skin. We *have* to talk about this, on a personal level. If your personal life has only ever included white people then your only data point is statistics and broad, meaningless ‘sides’ to an ‘argument’ that you’ve gleaned from listening to others discuss the issue in the abstract.

Reality says: there are no sides, there is no debate, racism exists. Next step: gee, what should/can I personally do to change that? What do YOU think, my friend of color? Where do we go, together, on all of this?

And here is my favorite I have a black friend!!1! story: I lived in St Louis in the late 80s. My best friend/sometimes boyfriend was black. He was pulled over at least once a week (he’d kept count of how many times he’d been pulled over until it got to be in the forties, then stopped because it was too stupid and disheartening and enraging), three times with me in the passenger seat. The third time (I believe for rolling a stop sign) the officer stepped to the car, leaned in the window past my friend and said to me “Ma’am, are you all right?”.

Comment #39: mir  on  08/02  at  04:04 PM

Dana,
I’m fairly certain your alleged liberal friend didn’t mean you to use his quote to argue that unfair application of the law is the fault of those who break the law while knowing they are in the targeted group. 

I teach in a predominantly minority community, and I would say that the argument goes rather differently.  In fact, some of my kids (boys) have flat out told me: why would I bother following the law if I’m considered a criminal anyway? Might as well have some fun/make some money/impress my friends.  Their experience shows them that prison WILL happen to them at some point, most likely.  Even if they don’t do anything wrong, or don’t do anything very wrong.  Now, as the school “nice white lady” I can try to argue with them, explain what my experience tells me is a better plan, etc., or even direct them to a colleague who is a black male who made other choices and got lucky, but I can’t tell kids that what they have seen for 14 years didn’t happen.  You suggest that the black community needs to reduce crime before we ask police to reduce the persecution.  I think that the best way to reduce crime in the black community is to let a generation of kids grow up seeing people who look like them getting a fair shake in the legal system.

Comment #40: Heo Cwaeth  on  08/02  at  04:19 PM

He can’t do this if his friends and allies are out there excusing crimes committed by blacks by saying, look! white guys do it, too!

Dana, we’re not here having this discussion because we are interested, at the moment, in participating in any sort of moralizing. The truth is that, given the context, it’s not particularly interesting to me. Trying to portray blacks as almost universally criminals who, if just they say the example of Barack Obama, would be fine is really not helpful and only serves to make you feel better.

The problem, of course, for white conservatives is that their role models are universally lazy and have a disdain for learning.

he could use his own history as a lesson to the black community, to show them the positive results of staying in school, of working as hard as you can to become the best that you can, instead of dropping out and running with the street gangs, to educate young black adolescents growing up in our inner cities, to show them that there really are other things they can do with their lives.

“When I was young and irresponsible, I was young and irresponsible,” seems to be a great lesson for white people, though, and works out well for them. So why demand that different lessons be given to blacks unless there is a problem of systemic difference in the consequences society forces them to face?

Comment #41: Tyro  on  08/02  at  04:25 PM

What I don’t see is any expressed concern about why the crime rates among blacks are so high, and what can be done to lower such.

No, what you see is crime rates among blacks and whites are within a margin of error, but that blacks and latinos are incarcerated at a much higher rate.

That’s fucked up, Dana, and telling black people “Just Say No” isn’t going to fix it.

Comment #42: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  08/02  at  05:12 PM

Undetected, yes, because they’re not looking for it to the same extent they look for black criminals.  See also, undersentencing and underconviction because they’re not treating white-committed crime as seriously as black-committed crime.  With blacks, the authorities are concerned with “getting the criminal off the streets.” With whites, they’re often more concerned with “let’s not ruin this nice young man’s life over some juvenile mistakes or a little display of temper.”

This, for sure.

The attitude that black people are somehow disposable, but a white guy is too valuable to just lock up. It extends to other things, too. how often has a sympathetic judge or jury excused the behavior of white boys who sexually assault a girl, because “a criminal record would destroy their future.” ?  Why don’t we hear about considering a black man’s future in the same way? Or any woman’s future, for that matter.

Comment #43: happyfungirl  on  08/02  at  05:16 PM

What you’re saying, Dana, is that blacks (and presumably other such objectively oppressed people, you name them) have to behave better than the white “norm.” To begin to approach lowering their rate of punishment to what whites can reasonably expect to suffer.

Looking at the raw incarceration statistics cited above, they evidently have to behave seven times better to bring their per capita stats down to white levels of suffering.

How is this not racist?

That’s a rhetorical question btw—you’d have to say something miraculously profound to convince me it isn’t.

Comment #44: Mark Foxwell  on  08/02  at  05:56 PM

Dana, as it’s been pointed out to you already (and as was obvious to anyone who, you know, read the post), it’s not that crime rates in the black community are so much higher - it’s the getting caught rate (and the ‘getting convicted’ rate, and the ‘getting a heavy sentence’ rate) that is much higher. You can’t judge the rate of crime by looking at the rate of punishment after it’s already been shown that blacks and whites commit the given crime at similar rates.

So why aren’t you handwringing about the number of whites who commit crimes and get off scot-free? What are we going to do to address the crime rate in the white community, since apparently the police will do nothing about it? After all, since there are so many more white people in this country than black people, that’s got to be a whole hell of a lot more crime that’s going unaddressed than the scary black crime wave.

Comment #45: magistera  on  08/02  at  06:13 PM

To be fair, as anyone who lives in DC can tell you, lots of crime goes unpunished there, too, and it makes the place worse, not better. It’s just that it’s the sort of crime that gets on people’s nerves: property crimes, muggings, assault, vandalism, etc., rather than the kind that doesn’t—casual drug use, schoolyard scuffles, etc.

What people aren’t demanding is that the police stop arresting criminals for things. What we wish is that we stopped with the presumption that someone must be “up to something” and has to be stopped and searched in the hopes of uncovering crimes.  It helped my college classmates that they weren’t constantly at risk of being searched and arrested when soft drugs were found or constantly set up in sting operations by people posing as drug dealers. Who’s it helping to focus on this kind of enforcement?

While cracking down on scofflaws inevitably helps, there’s no point in making the entire neighborhood a police state on the basis of your skin color.

Unfortunately, the Danas of the world are resorting to a “stop hitting yourself! stop hitting yourself!” mindset towards the black community: ie, “if they’d just all shape up and act more like that <strike>damned Marxist socialist Muslim from Kenya</strike> nice young man Barack Obama, then we would have to go around assuming that they’re criminals! We’re being forced into it!” This only corrupts the minds and the instincts of our citizens and our police officers, because you’re using these incidents to promote your believe that these communities deserve the assumption of criminality.

Comment #46: Tyro  on  08/02  at  06:50 PM

Mr Foxwell, no single black man can behave “seven times better.”  The statistics come from the aggregate numbers.  What has to be done is to persuade people that they can make a difference by doing the right things themselves, period.

Comment #47: Dana  on  08/02  at  06:56 PM

Dana, you want to believe that if blacks were only exemplary people, who never break any rules, let alone any laws, then no black man or woman would ever caught and jailed by the long arm of the law.

First off, that expectation is ridiculous.  Black men and women, black girls and boys — none are any more perfect than anyone else.  People are all flawed.  We all commit transgressions, big or small, some of which have been marked as being punishable by society.  You might just as well expect that perfection from us all, for all the likelihood you’ll get it.  I’d bet you yourself have done something the law frowns on, at least once, even if it’s something like speeding or parking in the wrong place or for too long a time.  I know I have.

Second off, you also assume that if you have never done something wrong, you will never run afoul of the law, that it would be impossible for you to be arrested, let alone put on trial, convicted, and sentenced to prison.  And yet we know there have been people released from prison after being convicted and serving time because the evidence was found to be faulty and/or the witnesses found to have been liars.  That also means it is very likely there are people in prison, at this very moment, who are innocent of the crimes they were convicted of. 

No matter how you try to cloak it in some sort of high-minded concern over the morality of your darker-skinned brothers and sisters, what you are doing is pure victim blaming…

Comment #48: MikeEss  on  08/02  at  06:58 PM

In my 4-part breakdown of potential white allies with discriminated-against “minorities” (who by the way are often not minorities in many venues infamous for massive oppression—I believe African-Americans outnumber “whites” in Mississippi for instance, and always have from the earliest days of “Anglo” settlement there—which was largely plantations) consider a very crude application of my category 2—people who agree to work to undo racist oppression because it is part of a bad system for everyone, even their nominally privileged selves.

If we are in fact jailing African-Americans at seven times the rate we jail whites, then if AAs make up about 10 percent of the population they’d make up 7/16ths of the prison population. If we eliminated the cumulative effects of discrimination in suspicion, discrimination in apprehension, discrimination in conviction, discrimination in sentencing, and discrimination in refusing parole so that blacks got imprisoned at similar rates—why, we’d cut the prison population in half. American prisons are a huge budget drain, never mind the moral costs.

Now if in the interest of “fairness” we assumed that blacks are being found out and punished at appropriate rates and it’s whites we’d better crack down on for the good of society—why, we’d wind up jailing about five times as many people altogether as we do now. The cost—just the fiscal cost, again never mind the ethical dimension—would be crippling.

I submit if some Sufficiently Powerful Aliens like Star Trek’s Organians were to somehow impose this latter “solution” to the fairness problem on us, we’d re-evaluate our priorities pronto—we’d develop new standards, focus on fighting only crimes that are clearly harmful, find new and more creative ways of dealing with dangerous criminals.

We can in fact be doing that now, to reduce the rate of our currently barbaric and gargantuan-scaled prison/industrial axis and the associated police state regime we are sliding further into. Among other things, we could halve or even further reduce this draining expense.

Except that perhaps we aren’t really moving into new territory with our current slide toward a gulag society. Actually, the “modern” prison system as we know it today started forming immediately after the Civil War in the South, as a way of perpetuating a version of the slave economy—with the slaves now owned for set periods and by the state, to be sure. But they immediately began renting out the services of briefly freed African-Americans who were quickly convicted of any of numerous new “crimes” defined by the “Black Codes” the new state governments authorized by Lincoln and Johnson soon passed. (Stuff like this is why the Republican Congress set forth overriding Johnson and implementing Congressional Reconstruction). Doggedly the various Southern regimes kept up with this, especially after Reconstruction was ended, creating the infamous chain gangs and the like. And again recently, we talk now of the “prison-industrial complex” which includes privatized prisons as well as contracting the services of prisoners in more traditional penitentiaries to various corporate enterprises. I think this kind of thing never really stopped, in its various forms.

And so we can see a direct lineage between old-fashioned slavery and the modern penal system.

If we reform this, someone’s ox will get gored.

This is why category 2 is so slippery—in fact we rely on this massive system of injustice, not just to keep what we call public order but also economically. Probably we could generally all be better off under a better system, but a lot of someones who are quite influential under this system probably wouldn’t be, at least not in terms of their personal bottom lines.

Comment #49: Mark Foxwell  on  08/02  at  07:46 PM

There is a meme occurring here that whites commit crimes at pretty much the same rate as blacks, but just get away with it far more often.  The statistical support for that is in the comment by asdf, documenting that white and black drug use rates are very similar.  But then people here have essumed that if that is so, it must be true for all crimes; it isn’t.

From 1976 through 2005, blacks were four times more likely to be both the perpetrators and victims of murder.  I selected murder as the crime to examine, because murder leaves a specifiable victim as well as a (hopefully) identified perpetrator.  Blacks make up 12.3% of the population, but commit 52.2% of all murders, and are the victims of 46.9% of murders.  For all violent crimes, blacks are twice as likely as whites to be the victims.  Victimization is a good indicator of perpetration, because interracial crimes actually tend to be fairly low.

The first part of solving a problem is identifying it correctly.  If you believe that whites commit crimes at the same rates as blacks, you are deceiving yourselves; you are unlikely to come to correct conclusions when you begin from a false premise and bad data.

Comment #50: Dana  on  08/02  at  07:51 PM

Mr Ess wrote:

First off, that expectation is ridiculous.  Black men and women, black girls and boys — none are any more perfect than anyone else.  People are all flawed.  We all commit transgressions, big or small, some of which have been marked as being punishable by society.  You might just as well expect that perfection from us all, for all the likelihood you’ll get it.  I’d bet you yourself have done something the law frowns on, at least once, even if it’s something like speeding or parking in the wrong place or for too long a time.  I know I have.

Nope, no one is perfect, including me.  But you have to ask yourself: is one group committing the more serious crimes with greater frequency, and, if so, why. 

Second off, you also assume that if you have never done something wrong, you will never run afoul of the law, that it would be impossible for you to be arrested, let alone put on trial, convicted, and sentenced to prison.  And yet we know there have been people released from prison after being convicted and serving time because the evidence was found to be faulty and/or the witnesses found to have been liars.  That also means it is very likely there are people in prison, at this very moment, who are innocent of the crimes they were convicted of.

Nope.  there are people who commit serious crimes and get away with it, and there are people who are wrongly convicted for serious crimes.  But the latter group is fairly small. 

That’s one of the reasons I used crime victimization statistics in this comment and this post on my own poor site.  Victims are easily identifiable, and not subject to speculations on guilt or innocence, and the incidence of actual interracial crime is fairly low.

Comment #51: Dana  on  08/02  at  08:00 PM

Re: the white criminals feeling like their law-breaking is their own business, whereas the minorities are aware crime brings punishment…

this is a major reason I feel SAFER near a random black man than a random white man. (The other reason being that the really freaky sex criminals/ serial killers seem to be mostly white). White privilege can trump male privilege, which isn’t really a good thing, but it seems to me so obvious I’ve never understood people who react the other way. 

By the way, during my job search, at least one job I interviewed for being arrested, not even convicted, for any felony OR misdemeanor would put a person out of consideration. For me, that was no problem. But Professor Gates wouldn’t be able to get a job supervising emotionally disturbed youths.

Comment #52: Samantha Vimes  on  08/02  at  08:01 PM

Dana, in the context of a historically, systematically, and persistently discriminatory and oppressive society like ours, it does not surprise me that African-Americans would indeed commit more crimes. There is still the question of whether our punitive approach is the best available for reducing those crimes—even if we were applying justice evenhandedly.

But drug offenses, for which we have hard evidence blacks suffer punishment far more severe than whites, are hardly marginal matters—a huge proportion of our convicts, something like half, are in jail under such charges.

The treatment of Professor Gates is another example of massively disproportionate reactions clearly based on the man’s skin color and nothing else.

I do believe that if we could eliminate the obvious racism of our police/legal/punitive system, we would see the rates of actual crimes being committed by AAs and other singled-out groups (Latinos in California for instance) go down.

There’s a reason figures like Robin Hood are beloved rather than despised in legend after all. People living under a hostile occupation government develop a rather different attitude toward “law and order” than the people doing the occupying.

Comment #53: Mark Foxwell  on  08/02  at  08:31 PM

Via Samantha:
“Re: the white criminals feeling like their law-breaking is their own business, whereas the minorities are aware crime brings punishment…

this is a major reason I feel SAFER near a random black man than a random white man. (The other reason being that the really freaky sex criminals/ serial killers seem to be mostly white). White privilege can trump male privilege, which isn’t really a good thing, but it seems to me so obvious I’ve never understood people who react the other way. ”

Same for me.

Comment #54: happyfungirl  on  08/02  at  08:42 PM

  He robbed from the rich and he gave to the poor
  Stood up to the Man and he gave him what-for!
  Our love for him now ain’t hard to explain:
  The hero of Canton
  The man they call
  JAYNE!

  Jayne saw the mudder’s backs breaking;
  Jayne saw the mudder’s laments.
  Jayne saw that magistrate taking
  Every dollar, and leaving
  Five cents.

  So he said:
  You can’t do that to my people;
  You can’t grind them under your heel!
  And in five seconds flat
  Jayne slapped on his hat
  And robbed everything Magistrate Higgens had to steal.

  He robbed from the rich and he gave to the poor
  Stood up to the Man and he gave him what-for!
  Our love for him now ain’t hard to explain:
  The hero of Canton
  The man they call
  JAYNE!

  Now here is what separates heroes
  From common folk like you and I
  The man they call Jayne,
  He turned round his plane,
  And he let that money
  Hit sky.

  He dropped it onto our houses
  He dropped it onto our yards
  The man they call Jayne,
  He turned round his plane
  And headed out for the stars.

  He robbed from the rich and he gave to the poor
  Stood up to the Man and he gave him what-for!
  Our love for him now ain’t hard to explain:
  The hero of Canton
  The man they call
  JAYNE!

Firefly, “Jaynestown”

Oh, and later:

“You guys held a riot—on account of me?!
(hugs two Mudders)
I love you guys—how could I stay away?”

Comment #55: Mark Foxwell  on  08/02  at  08:49 PM

I’ve done some court watching this summer, and the one thing I’ve noticed above all else is the degree to which black people get pulled over…and pulled over…and pulled over.  I think the main reason NASCAR isn’t that popular among black people is that we’re not used to seeing anyone drive that long without being stopped and asked what we’re doing in the area.  Now, even if black people and white people commit crimes at similar rates, there are a lot more opportunities for black people to be caught, because we’re on the side of the road having plain sight searches done on us at a far greater rate.

I’ve noticed that it is sort of common wisdom, in America today, that blacks are routinely targeted by the police for traffic stops as a result of still-ingrained institutional racial prejudice. Typically, this sentiment, when expressed, is usually accompanied by some type of ancedotal account (see above) which supports this widely-held belief.

However there seems to be a severe dearth of actual evidence (i.e. non-anecdotal) that police stop blacks at higher rates than whites.   

Instead, there is comprehensive statistical data, made available by an addendum to the National Crime Victimization Survey, that indicates that black drivers are actually less likely than white drivers to be stopped by the police. According to table five on page three of the study’s abstract only 8.1% of black drivers reported having been stopped in 2005 lower than 8.9% of which white drivers were stopped.

I am genuinely curious if anyone here has any actual, non-anecdotal, evidence of this type of racism which allegedly runs rampant among our nation’s law enforcement personal?

Comment #56: Progressive_Prince  on  08/02  at  10:08 PM

There’s a handy table here that shows felon voting rights in the various states.

In Ohio, felons are allowed to vote once they’re no longer incarcerated.

Comment #57: stryx  on  08/02  at  11:03 PM

Dana  on  08/02  at  02:57 PM: This whole thread has turned away from why blacks are incarcerated at such a high rate to whites are just as bad, but just a whole lot better at getting away with crime. 

That isn’t true: others have pointed out, upthread, that not everyone in prison is guilty. It isn’t that blacks are worse at getting away at crime: many are, in fact, aren’t guilty. The trick is that blacks are arrested at an unjust rate. From there on, even prosecutors have admitted that innocent arrestees can be railroaded into copping a plea.

What I don’t see is any expressed concern about why the crime rates among blacks are so high, and what can be done to lower such.

Because the crime rates of whites are higher. Corporate crimes account for more murder and property damage than all non-corporate crimes combined. Guess which ethnicity tops the charts on that crime type?

. . .to show them the positive results of staying in school, of working as hard as you can to become the best that you can, instead of dropping out and running with the street gangs. . .

And the inevitable patronizing concern trolling. Meanwhile Dana ignores economic inequality that favors whites, ignores housing scams that fed into our recent economic woes that targeted minorities, and on, and on. A more sound observation: as soon as Dana’s kind no longer has significant representation in the body politic, blacks and other minorities will start getting better treatment from authorities.

Comment #58: No One of Consequence  on  08/02  at  11:04 PM

And the Great Gazoogle gave me the this:


Contacts between the Police and the Public: Three Tests of Convergent Validity

Author: Lichtenberg, Illya

Source: Police Practice and Research, Volume 8, Number 1, March 2007 , pp. 47-62(16)

Abstract:
The Police-Public Contacts Survey (PPCS) was required by law to provide information on the police use of force. Later the focus of the PPCS was expanded to include other contact, in particular, traffic stops. This research compares several of the PPCS findings (traffic stops and tickets, driving under the influence [DUI] arrests, and traffic accidents) to other pre-existing measures of similar police activity. The findings suggest that the PPCS measurements are grossly disparate from the comparative measures and all point towards the conclusion that the PPCS has underestimated contact between the police and the public. Serious caution is suggested for use of the data in developing policy on police-citizen interactions.

Comment #59: stryx  on  08/02  at  11:09 PM

Rubin’s take on all this, as far as I can tell:

Rubin: Black men deserve special scrutiny by the police.
Normal person: Why?
Rubin: Because so many of them receive special scrutiny from the police.

There’s a certain Marxist logic to this. I’m talking Groucho, not Karl.

Comment #60: Bitter Scribe  on  08/02  at  11:42 PM

You have to wonder if Rubin is that stupid or just a vicious liar.

Put aside all the question of crime rates, drug use, etcetera. Let’s even put aside the issues of laws that create racist results (like penalties for crack vs. powder). She is assuming that incarceration rates directly correlated with crime rates; that is, we can determine the number of crimes committed by looking at the number of people sent to prison. You can’t get that stupid unless you’re really trying, I think.

Progressive_Prince, you did notice in your concern trolling that black drivers are twice as likely to be arrested as white drivers after a stop?

Comment #61: mythago  on  08/02  at  11:59 PM

And the Great Gazoogle gave me the this:
Contacts between the Police and the Public: Three Tests of Convergent Validity
Author: Lichtenberg, Illya

Stryx, I wasn’t able to access the full article without subscribing to that publication so I can’t really speak to its analysis of the PPCS. I would be very interested in reading it though – if you have a link to something more than an abstract it would be most helpful.

As far as I know the NCVS (of which the PPCS is an addendum) is considered to be very accurate - you can go to its site and read about its scope, purpose and methodology as well as access all of its raw data and copies of the surveys used. From what I can tell it seems unimpeachable in terms of its accuracy.

Comment #62: Progressive_Prince  on  08/03  at  01:16 AM

Progressive_Prince, you did notice in your concern trolling that black drivers are twice as likely to be arrested as white drivers after a stop?

Yes.

However, I wouldn’t assume, as you seem to be, that this discrepancy in arrest rates is due to some type of racist sentiment or targeting among law enforcement personal.

Take note, for example, that men are three times as likely as women to be arrested at traffic stops and six to seven times more likely to have their vehicles searched. Do you think it would be logical, upon learning of this data, to automatically come to the conclusion that men are unjustly targeted by law enforcement indicative of sexist sentiment among their ranks?

Probably not.

Instead, you would probably think it more logical to note that only a few percentage of drivers are ever arrested – thus accounting for only a small minority of stops in the first place. Then, you probably would find it most logical to consider that drivers are stopped by the police for a variety of reasons, i.e. speeding, record checks, seatbeat violations etc., and would factor in the role of context and the results of vehicle searches to explain the disparity.

Ultimately, you would probably conclude that the higher arrest and search rates for men are best explained not by some invisible sexism, but rather by the reality that men are more likely in engage in behavior which results in arrests and searches.

I suspect that although racism (or sexism) on the part of the police ranks could be the culprit responsible for the disparate arrest rates among the sexes and races I also suspect we both agree there are other, better explanations.

Comment #63: Progressive_Prince  on  08/03  at  01:47 AM

It is simply mindboggling that someone could read that paragraph written by Bob Herbert and wilfully misread it to such an extent that you produce the paragraph written by Jennifer Rubin.
How can a brain do that without exploding?

White people are able to believe an amazing amount of errant bullshit without their heads exploding.  It’s really pretty amazing, the ability of white people to benefit from gobs of institutional racism, while still telling themselves that Henry Gates is the REAL racist.

Comment #64: DonnaDiva  on  08/03  at  02:44 AM

Now, a rational person might ask why the War on Drugs seems to have spurred such a violent and destructive phenomenon disproportionately focused on poor black urban communities,

It seems pretty straightforward. “Progressive_Prince” (pfft) walked right past the answer without noticing.

In order to pretend they’re getting somewhere in the War on Some Drugs, police must conduct random searches. If they search enough people, they’ll find drugs. Then they can make an arrest of some kind to justify their funding.

As I understand it, the law allows them to search anyone—provided the cops can claim they felt threatened. They can best make this claim when they search men, specifically black men.

So McWhorter has a point (more than Dana or PP). While racism plays a major part at some level, I think drug prohibition supplies the main motive that leads to disparities in incarceration. If we end drug prohibition, we’ll remove the motive.

Comment #65: hf  on  08/03  at  03:29 AM

So McWhorter has a point (more than Dana or PP). While racism plays a major part at some level, I think drug prohibition supplies the main motive that leads to disparities in incarceration. If we end drug prohibition, we’ll remove the motive.

Yeah, and believe you me I am HUGE fan of ending the Drug War, but won’t they find some other reason to target racial minorities for prosecution and incarceration?  Remember, it wasn’t too long ago that white people were perfectly comfortable with the idea of hanging black men for the “crime” of whistling at a white woman.  With all due respect to Dr. McWhorter, I don’t think he understands what fuckheads most white people still are.  Yeah, end the drug war.  Also, make police departments explain their arrest stats.

Comment #66: DonnaDiva  on  08/03  at  03:40 AM

Oh ok, Maine and Vermont let people vote while in prison, those are the only two states.  My original point was that I don’t think you should lose your right to vote because you broke the law (or were railroaded by a racially biased system).  I think the people who are most directly affected by the laws that incarcerate people should retain their right to vote on the system that’s screwing them.  Especially since the system seems to be designed to screw a particular demographic more than everyone else.

People who have never been arrested for a non-violent drug offense are more likely to vote for candidates and initiatives that keep the War on Drugs rolling.

(I gotta stop commenting near bed time.  I’m sure I have more to say that’s relevant to the actual post, but my mind is starting to shut down.)

Comment #67: Godless Heathen  on  08/03  at  03:45 AM

Let’s say you have an outstanding warrant for your arrest, and you’re walking down the street with a small sack of weed in your pocket. A cop recognizes you, confirms the warrant over the radio, and then arrests you. At the time of arrest, you’ll be patted down for weapons. When you’re taken to jail, you’ll surrender your belongings and be frisked intimately before being put in a cell. Your weed is almost certain to be found, and you’ll accumulate another drug charge.

Now let’s say you have that outstanding warrant for your arrest, but you’re driving down that same street in your car, and you have your weed in the car but not on your person. Cop recognizes you, arrests you, takes you to jail. Your car is towed, and the weed is still in it. The cop needed a search warrant in order to rummage through your car, and could have quickly obtained a search warrant over the radio, except that simply arresting you does not provide probable cause for the search. When you finally get out of jail and pay to get your car out of impound, you can finally relax and smoke that weed.

Of course the poorer you are, the less likely you are to be in a car, so the more likely you’ll be picking up the extra drug charge.

Comment #68: asdf  on  08/03  at  05:30 AM

Bob Herbert makes the indisputable point that black people are imprisoned for drug charges an order of magnitude more often than white people, even though black people do not use illegal drugs more often than white people.

Everyone agrees that this is a problem and something should be done.

Everyone except for Dana, who predictably changes the subject. Yes, some tiny, tiny fraction of a percent of black people are murderers. But Dana, nearly 10 percent of black people are drug users. Instead of changing the subject, how about you just admit that something’s going wrong with the drug enforcement system, and talk about what can be done to set things right.

God forbid you might contribute productively for once.

Alternatively, be an idiot and entertain us:

Nope, no one is perfect, including me.  But you have to ask yourself: is one group committing the more serious crimes with greater frequency, and, if so, why.

Tell us, Dana. Tell us why.

Comment #69: asdf  on  08/03  at  05:43 AM

asdf wrote:

Everyone except for Dana, who predictably changes the subject. Yes, some tiny, tiny fraction of a percent of black people are murderers. But Dana, nearly 10 percent of black people are drug users. Instead of changing the subject, how about you just admit that something’s going wrong with the drug enforcement system, and talk about what can be done to set things right.

God forbid you might contribute productively for once.

I’d suggest that a huge part of the reason are the differences in where blacks and whites live.  A fairly significant part of the black population is crammed into inner cities, with high population densities.  Looking at my own rural county, there might be just as much drug use as in the cities, but the level of police enforcement is vastly different: everything is spread out, people are further apart, the police have less training and are generally less experienced, and there are just plain a lot more places that are private.

Add to that the types of behavior police try to break up in Philadelphia, congregation on street corners that could look like drug buy areas, don’t occur here, simply due to the much lower population density.

Comment #70: Dana  on  08/03  at  01:26 PM

However, I wouldn’t assume, as you seem to be, that this discrepancy in arrest rates is due to some type of racist sentiment or targeting among law enforcement personal.

No; you would start with the premise that there can’t possibly be any truth to black people’s perception of police harassment, and therefore the discrepancy can be otherwise explained away.

If we had widespread reports by men that they were routinely harassed, stopped on pretexts, and arrested by a largely female police force in situations where women are waved off, then I would certainly consider a discrepancy in arrest rates by gender to be supporting evidence of that.

Comment #71: mythago  on  08/03  at  02:50 PM

Yeah, and believe you me I am HUGE fan of ending the Drug War, but won’t they find some other reason to target racial minorities for prosecution and incarceration?

No, not if “they” means cops in general. End drug prohibition and they’ll face meaningful pressure to end racial profiling. Right now they face pressure where it counts to commit racial profiling, in order to do the jobs we’ve given them and find drugs. I’ll grant you that many cops oppose ending prohibition because (like forgoing random searches) it may hurt their funding. But again, racism does not seem like the primary motive. Very few people get up in the morning and say, ‘How can I best hurt [African-Americans] today?’ Those few people will expose themselves and lose their jobs if we remove the monetary incentives.

Comment #72: hf  on  08/03  at  04:31 PM

No; you would start with the premise that there can’t possibly be any truth to black people’s perception of police harassment, and therefore the discrepancy can be otherwise explained away… If we had widespread reports by men that they were routinely harassed, stopped on pretexts, and arrested…

Of what widespread reports do you speak? I assume you are referring to various anecdotal accounts of racist police actions. Surely it goes without saying that anecdotal evidence is extremely unreliable – especially when applied to large populations.

In any case, if you take a look at the survey it asked the participants whether they thought they were stopped for legitimate reasons and if the police acted appropriately. A vast majority of black drivers (approx 80%) responded to both questions in the affirmative.

So, in other words, when you actually ask black drivers if the police are harassing them the vast majority say that the police acted appropriately. Hardly the “routine” harassment you claim.

Comment #73: Progressive_Prince  on  08/03  at  04:43 PM

Bob Herbert makes the indisputable point that black people are imprisoned for drug charges an order of magnitude more often than white people, even though black people do not use illegal drugs more often than white people.

Asdf – the problem with your interpretation of this data is you are assuming that drug convictions are only for illegal drug use. In actuality, individuals can be charged for use, possession, cultivation and distribution of illegal drugs. If blacks disproportionally participate in some of those later categories - that could explain the discrepancy.

Comment #74: Progressive_Prince  on  08/03  at  05:10 PM

Surely it goes without saying that anecdotal evidence is extremely unreliable – especially when applied to <strike>non-white</strike> large populations.

There, I fixed that for you.

Comment #75: history_mom  on  08/03  at  07:00 PM

Is anyone really surprised that a largely male police force makes the sexist assumption that most women haven’t done anything worth arresting them for, especially in a society where women are socialized to be deferential? (And see what happens if a women doesn’t follow that script: she gets tased.)

Btw, I’m, uh, interested to know (from Dana’s murder statistics) that all the murders committed in the US are apparently solved, so that we can have a valid denominator for the racial percentage of perpetrators.

Comment #76: paul  on  08/03  at  11:20 PM

“I think the main reason NASCAR isn’t that popular among black people is that we’re not used to seeing anyone drive that long without being stopped and asked what we’re doing in the area.” I laughed out loud when I read this. My 23 year-old daughter asked what was so funny. I read it to her. She’s laughing out loud now.

With respect to the white/black drug arrest disparity, I remember an episode of The West Wing where the Bartlet administration was going to attempt to remove the sentencing differences between powder cocaine (whites) and crack cocaine (blacks). The Chief of Staff had about 7 to 10 congressional staffers brought into the Press Room. He explained what the plan was and dared any of their bosses to balk. He had the goods on their close family members - the daughter arrested with kilos of cocaine but who got off with just having to forfeit her car she was using to transport them; the M.D. husband strung out on prescription drugs, stealing them from the hospital, getting to keep his job and medical license by going to rehab; etc., etc. None of these congressional members were black. Fictional story? Yes. But I’m certain it was based on some realities.

Dana bringing up the murder rates only leaves out one stat - how many UNSOLVED murders are there where the victims were black? white? You know that police adage - most murders are committed by people close to the victim. If that’s not enough, how about Dana conducts some research on the Innocence Project and get back to us on how many black men were railroaded into prison for murders they didn’t commit?

Comment #77: metricpenny  on  08/03  at  11:37 PM

Asdf – the problem with your interpretation of this data is you are assuming that drug convictions are only for illegal drug use. In actuality, individuals can be charged for use, possession, cultivation and distribution of illegal drugs. If blacks disproportionally participate in some of those later categories - that could explain the discrepancy.

No, not a discrepancy of that magnitude.

You’re a neo-nazi, though. Thanks for letting us know.

Comment #78: asdf  on  08/04  at  01:53 AM
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