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Next entry: On getting angry and getting droll Previous entry: Music Friday: Themes Edition

Thesis: Your Mom

There are two basic reactions from Vatican apologists you get when you write a pointed criticism of the dippy shit that the Catholic Church does: incoherent, bed-shitting rage and unbelievably sexist condescension.  Both reactions are hilarious but disturbing, because they tend to be effective at the ultimate goal, which is silencing critics of the church.  Most people really don't enjoy getting dog-piled and will think harder next time they dare suggest that the god-botherers are assholes.    But it's hard to decide which is a more fucked-up reaction.  On one hand, there's a fear factor in the incoherent rage response.  But the condescension is really over the top in the "silly girls can't be expected to understand stuff, which is why the church expects them to submit and stop asking questions" kind of way. 

Take this amusing head pat I got from Jennifer Fulwiler, who, despite being female, is MRA-level sexist. I think she literally touches on every single condescending stereotype about women: that we're emotional children, that we're easily deceived, that we're incredibly stupid, and above all, that we cannot make decisions on our own, but instead are natural followers who are just doing what we're told.  And that therefore it's a matter of giving women the correct masters, because women, being basically like dogs, don't really have free will or moral agency. 

And no, I'm not exaggerating. Let us examine:

Amanda Marcotte’s article in Slate about World Youth Day is making the rounds this week. I don’t think I’m going out on a limb by suggesting that she was very upset when she wrote it. What was it about the event that got her so flustered?

Sure, lady, tell yourself I was flopped out on my bed, weeping like a child who has been told she has to clean her room before she goes outside. Actually, wait, no.  Actually, what was going on was I read the article about World Youth Day and thought, "Man, the pope is a real choad, isn't he? I can totally make fun of this."  I'm not saying if I was actually laughing at my own jokes while I wrote it, but let's just say it's happened before.  I'm also pretty sure that if I was "flustered", I wouldn't have written a piece that hit so close to home.  All these things seem really obvious from the piece, which has more of a "eat my poo" tone than a "waaaaaah the pope is a meanie" tone, but I'll bet Fulwiler's audience eats this crap up, because it fits their image of women as emotionally unstable children. 

There’s not a clear thesis to the piece, but it seems that the Church’s anti-abortion stance, emphasized when Pope Benedict offered forgiveness to women who have had abortions, is what triggered most of her angst.

Fulwiler can cram as many synonyms as possible in for "bitches be crazy", but it's not actually changing the fact that my tone was not upset, flustered, angsty, or in any way comparable to a teenage girl furiously writing about being rejected by a boy in her diary.  The correct adjectives are "amused" and "mocking".  And I think we all know what the thesis of the piece was---again, relying more on stereotypes of women as childish and not doing our homework properly!---but I'm happy to spell it out:  The pope is a dickbag, and increasing numbers of Catholics are clueing into that.  See, that wasn't so hard!

She then goes on to accurately enough describe the pro-choice view that women should have control over our bodies. But, you know, we've already established that she thinks women are just too damn stupid for choices. So now the fun really begins.  If you read anti-choice stuff, you can probably guess where she goes next.  That's right!  To "contraception is an evil conspiracy to hoodwink ladies, who are really really stupid".

And, like a lot of crazy ideas in our culture, we have contraception to thank for it. Now that there’s widespread access to contraception, our young women are told not that sex creates babies, but that unprotected sex creates babies. They’re assured that sex can be safely separated from its life-giving potential, as long as they use artificial birth control. From a secular point of view, it might sound like a nice, pro-woman message.

Only if you think women are full human beings who can make their own decisions, which she most certainly does not. She goes on to point out that contraception some times fails, citiing the Guttmacher (who she erroneously claims is owned by Planned Parenthood---they're actually an independent organization with no connection to Planned Parenthood) statistic that half of women who have abortions were using contraception at the time.  Actually, she misinterprets the data, saying, "were using contraception when they conceived their child."  Actually, the statistic is "Fifty-four percent of women who have abortions had used a contraceptive method (usually the condom or the pill) during the month they became pregnant."  Of this group, only 13% of pill users and 14% of condom users report correct use. She's fudging the numbers to imply that contraception is less effective than it is.

But let's get back to the "women are incredibly stupid" portion of the program!

So, let’s summarize the situation: Women are handed contraception and assured that they need not have a second thought as to whether they’re ready for pregnancy. Then, when their birth control method fails, they’re encouraged to undergo a painful medical procedure performed on the most sensitive part of their bodies.

Because you know what isn't even a remotely painful event in the most sensitive part of your body?  Childbirth.  Man, she not only thinks women are stupid, but that her audience is stupid.  I'm beginning to think she's just projecting a personal problem on everyone in sight.

I love the way she characterizes how contraception and abortions happen.  It's not that women seek these things out!  No, the contraception man comes to your door and hands you your bag of contraception.  Prior to then, it would have never occured you to do something like put a penis in your vagina.  But suddenly, without even thinking about it, you're rolling a condom on a penis and boom! Next thing you know, pregnant.  And then the abortion posse shows up to your house and takes you to the clinic.  You probably didn't even realize that you'd get a baby if you didn't go with them. Because you have no will or mind of your own. 

And so, to Amanda Marcotte and others like her, I would say, as I’ve said before: You’re right to be angry. You are correct in sensing that women’s freedom is being taken away. You’re just wrong to blame the Church. Not only does it not “punish female sexuality,” but it’s one of the few voices in our culture that respects it.

Yeah, they respect it so much that they'll respectfully force a 9-year-old to bear a rapist's child

Seriously, she has a strange view of respecting women: treat them like overgrown children, portray them as having no real will of their own, condescendingly tell us we have no understanding of our own lives and relationships, and push for laws that "respect" 78,000 women into their graves a year.  I think I'll stick with the old-fashioned definition of "respect" that involves treating women like grown adults who should have the right to make important decisions about their own lives. 

Also, because I know it's important to Jennifer Fulwiler, here's the thesis of this post: Jennifer Fulwiler is a sex-phobic, misogynist crank who does a poor job concealing her contempt for all women besides herself with condescending head pat tone. And she can eat my poo. 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 01:45 PM • (58) Comments

After reading something you wrote this week (perhaps the article that triggered all this), I watched “Sex in a Cold Climate” and “The Magdelene Sisters.” I’m tempted to forward their IMDBs along to the next anti-choice aunt that sends me an anti planned parenthood spam.

Comment #1: SweetT  on  08/19  at  01:56 PM

If I thought any baby I had would be as cute as that baby panda, I’d be more diligent about forgoing the birth control that the parenthood-planners were foisting upon me. ‘Course, then I’d have to stock up on bamboo. So many choices. And I’m too stupid to make them!

Comment #2: benvolio  on  08/19  at  01:56 PM

I approve this conclusion. I shall go and make some bran muffins for you.

Raisins or no raisins?

Comment #3: Mighty Ponygirl  on  08/19  at  02:06 PM

I hate to get into personal crap here, but here’s a truth for her:

I will be 53 next month. I have Multiple Sclerosis. I had a condom failure (properly used) this month. I am not sure yet whether or not that’s going to have repercussions, but I’m starting to think it’s quite possible.

Let’s see. Which would be worse for me if I am pregnant? Where is the worst health risk? Oh yes, and I’m on long term disability which means I have much more limited income than I used to. And the chances, if I’m pregnant, that the pregnancy would go off without a hitch and I’d give birth to a healthy child are vanishingly slim.

I don’t much like being patronized by ANYONE. Having this shit come out of a woman pisses me off even more.

Comment #4: Broce  on  08/19  at  02:08 PM

I’ve read a bunch of Ms. Fulwiler’s stuff after I think PZ Myers went after her a few months ago, as she claims to be a former atheist turned hardcore, have-a-baby-a-year Catholic, which is basically the opposite of me (minus the babies part since I don’t have a ueterus).

She talks a lot about how much happier she is now that she’s religious, which I don’t doubt. But she explicitly says she’s happier because she now has less autonomy then she used to. She doesn’t have to think hard about making decisions any more!  Someone has figured it all out, and she gets to just follow along! Back around to sex and babies, that’s pretty much the Catholic position - you accept whatever babies you get with a smile because God sent them your way. Don’t think you want one? You’re questioning God’s will, and you don’t think you’re smarter than God, do you?

The really objectionable thing to me is the way she generalizes her personal experience to everyone. Maybe you’re happier not having to think for yourself, but assume that that goes for me or anyone else, and stop telling me what’s going to make me or my wife or my daughter happy.

Comment #5: Rootboy  on  08/19  at  02:15 PM

But if He didn’t want us to use them, why did God create abortion and contraception?

Comment #6: judybrowni  on  08/19  at  02:26 PM

“Only if you think women are full human beings who can make their own decisions, which she most certainly does not.”

Amanda, when I have the unfortunate experience of talking to an anti-choicer, they always say a woman has a decision and she made it when she had sex.

Comment #7: jackie  on  08/19  at  02:46 PM

People who want other people (or institutions) to make all their decisions for them, scare the hell out of me.

Comment #8: GeekGirlsRule  on  08/19  at  02:46 PM

I hate it when they use words like “dignity” and “respect” to mean something entirely unlike dignity or respect. Is the Catholic Church really so strapped for cash that they can’t afford to keep a copy of the dictionary in every rectory? Or is that an evil, secular book which they will not touch with their rarefied hands?

Comment #9: Alyson Miers  on  08/19  at  02:47 PM

Didn’t you learn that you should move your thesis to the very first paragraph, and of course, type it in bold caps with the blink tag to get wingnuts to notice it.  At the bottom, the will fall for the wingnut equivalent of TLDR, TLCC (Too long couldn’t comprehend). 

Keep up the righteous snark.

Comment #10: Sideshow Bill  on  08/19  at  02:50 PM

Yeah, jackie—-they really do see sex as basically a quasi-criminal activity, at least for women.

Comment #11: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/19  at  02:51 PM

I do not believe Conservatives who claim to be “recovering” atheists any more than those who claim to be “recovering” gays. Christine O’Donnell played with witches? Hung out with witches, more specifically according to her story, that used a Satanic Altar? Fundies love them some conversion stories, but anyone who knows atheists and witches, knows that their stories are full of logical inconsistencies and holes. Lyin’ for Jesus is more holy to these people than radical truth telling would ever be. Their daily acts of immorality and perversion is truly staggering. Thus, forgive me for casting doubt that Fulwiler has ever been anything but a follower and a drone. Perhaps she had a crush on an atheist in High School and lacking any actual foundation for critical thinking or self-determination, “totally agreed that God is bunk” for 15 minutes. Being a fundamentalist Catholic today does not a convert make, because at her core, she’s just pathetically seeking cookies from her betters, just as she’s always done.

Comment #12: Thealogian  on  08/19  at  02:53 PM

I found it amusing - while also maddening - that she claims to know you so well while clearly not knowing you *at all*. Anyone who is familiar with your writing would see your usual mocking and snark in that piece right away. (To be clear: I LIKE the mocking and snark!) To read it as you being teary-eyed and flustered and tantrum-y shows that she doesn’t know a fucking thing about you as a person or a writer…yet her whole piece is basically playing Amanda Marcotte’s Personal Armchair Psychiatrist.

Also, the idea that the Catholic church respects female sexuality seems akin to the pedestal-placing the uber-chivalrous dudes do while saying that their ridiculous over-praising is actually them being totally feminist. Sorry, it’s not.

Comment #13: Alison  on  08/19  at  03:00 PM

Amanda and jackie - that’s the driving motivation behind something I saw on here a few days ago, where the young girl had written to Dear Abby about how she’d seduced her stepbrother and gotten pregnant and it was all her fault. Because sex is portrayed as the last choice a woman gets in whether or not she gets pregnant, and pregnancy being The Consequence of sex that affects women disproportionately to men (well, transmen anyway), sex becomes the one choice a woman has as far as contraception and dudes totally don’t care.

The problem with this attitude is that it’s hurting men, too - a lot of Dudes On The Internet will complain that people don’t think men can be raped, and that the stereotype of the rapist as a dude is Unfair To Dudes. But this is why: because under this way of thinking, men would have absolutely no reason to say no to sex, and therefore they can’t be raped.

Comment #14: Hobbes  on  08/19  at  03:02 PM

#1 SweeT, I got a dvd of “Vera Drake” for one dollar at the grocery store. You can add that to your list and afford to send them the dvd.

#5 Rootboy, I think that’s why she attacks people like Amanda so virulently—she’s working hard to convince herself that she’s happy with the life she has chosen. It may seem like fun to not have to think for yourself, but if you have a functioning brain, the fun only lasts about five minutes before you realize you made a huge mistake.

Comment #15: serious bette  on  08/19  at  03:10 PM

For example, from an anti-choice comment section in response to Romeny’s flip-flopping on abortion and his relative’s death in 1963 from an illegal abortion.

“Illegal or not, the decision was HERS. Her choice! She had control over when to have sex, and possibly get pregnant. The ‘child’ has already been conceived and has started to develop, when SHE decides she doesn’t want to be pregnant.”

These are people who profess that they are pro-life yet have no empathy for this young woman.  They also like to say that we’re aborting a future scientist who could cure cancer or the first female president, yet that thought process never extends to women like Romney’s relative or the 400,000 starving children in Somalia.

Comment #16: jackie  on  08/19  at  03:10 PM

Broce—I happen to know enough conservative Catholic types (heck, I’ve even heard this sort of reasoning from people who are otherwise pro-choice, pro-contraception liberals) to know their response to your comment: “if you can’t afford a baby right now, then don’t have sex”.  I suspect this mentality is even stronger amongst Catholics because in their community, not having sex is a valid (and in fact celebrated) life choice.

Personally, I think not having sex would completely suck, but that’s just me.

Anyway, I hope everything turns out for the best with you.  And I hope and pray that anyone in your position is able to make whatever choices they need to make in order to stay as healthy (both mentally and physically) as possible.

Comment #17: DAS  on  08/19  at  03:24 PM

Two things.

First, even if Amanda were angry, she has every right to be angry at an institution that is trying to limit her freedom.  It doesn’t make her points any less valid.

Second, the comment thread over at the other post is hilarious.  Especially the ones about “freedom” - to the Catholic apologists, I always want to say: “I do not think that word means what you think it means.”

I actually had a rather long argument with a Catholic theologian once.  I got him to admit, flat out, that in some cases slavery was good for the slaves because with highly restricted life choices they had less opportunity to sin.  He also admitted that, all things being equal, he would prefer Catholic theocracy to democracy.

Fortunately, it seems like most American Catholics (including clergy) don’t agree with their church’s doctrine.  Those who do - and who really understand its implications - are kind of scary people.

Comment #18: Dave Fried  on  08/19  at  03:27 PM

@Comment #17: DAS on 08/19 at 03:24 PM

Personally, I think not having sex would completely suck, but that’s just me.

Actually, it would completely NOT suck, which would be even worse

Comment #19: atheist  on  08/19  at  03:30 PM

Do you need a tissue, Amanda?  You sounded pretty upset and hysterical there with all those thought-out statements based on truth and proof to back them up.  Simply hysterical.

Comment #20: alicefairy  on  08/19  at  03:37 PM

Yes, DAS, that’s exactly the Church’s position: if you have medical or financial issues that would make a baby inadvisable, you are not supposed to have sex. With your spouse.  98% of American Catholics ignore that self-evident bit of idiocy because it is cruel, sick, evil advice.  The Church takes the attitude of Paul, “It is better to marry than to burn,” i.e. if you have a sex drive, you are inherently a bad person, and marriage is damage control.

Comment #21: Yawgmoth  on  08/19  at  03:57 PM

atheist @ comment #19

wink

Perhaps I should have used a different word.  Although that would have deprived the world of your comment smile

Comment #22: DAS  on  08/19  at  03:58 PM

From the Fulwiler article:
And, like a lot of crazy ideas in our culture, we have contraception to thank for it.

I’m really interested in hearing what other crazy ideas she’s talking about here.

Rootboy:
She talks a lot about how much happier she is now that she’s religious, which I don’t doubt. But she explicitly says she’s happier because she now has less autonomy then she used to. She doesn’t have to think hard about making decisions any more!  Someone has figured it all out, and she gets to just follow along!

I was just reading that New Yorker piece on Bachmann today and there’s a similar line in there about how happy she became once she turned her life over to god. There really is something in their world view about giving up control (though I’m still not clear on what that means, in a practical sense), which is ironic given how obsessed they are with “personal responsibility,” especially on reproductive rights. Though if god is controlling your life maybe the contraception man really does just show up at your door.

Comment #23: antiope  on  08/19  at  04:05 PM

And, like a lot of crazy ideas in our culture, we have contraception to thank for it.

I never knew contraception was responsible for reality television, the super-committee tasked with reducing our deficit, the Heritage Foundation, etc.

Wow!  Is there anything contraception can’t do? wink

Comment #24: DAS  on  08/19  at  04:17 PM

I always want to shout at these people that the vast majority of sex in this world takes place in boring old committed relationships between grown adults.  LOTS of it is even between married people!  I just can’t quite work out how the sex I have in my bed with my husband becomes more or less moral based on whether the contents of our bank account and our working hours are appropriate for having a child 9 months from now.

Comment #25: GumbyAnne  on  08/19  at  04:18 PM

The “no thesis” thing is especially funny because both this post and that one have direct statements of the post’s main idea as the last sentence of the first paragraph—exactly the spot where anybody who has taken a high-school or college writing class has been told to put the thesis. 

This post has: “But the condescension is really over the top in the “silly girls can’t be expected to understand stuff, which is why the church expects them to submit and stop asking questions” kind of way.”  And the rest of the post is about…yep, examples illustrating the over-the-top condescension in Fulwiler’s response.

And the post Fulwiler is responding to has: “The church is wrong about reproductive health; the majority of American Catholics ... who are pro-choice and pro-contraception, are right.”  Clear statement of the writer’s opinion, position, or interpretation of the topic right there. 

And also this:  “The most amusing of these accusations came from Michael Doughtery, who called me a “Know Nothing”, and then when I challenged him on it, was unable to really explain how my view—-that the Catholic Church is a corrupt institution that Catholics are wisely rejecting—-has anything to do with the virulent opposition to immigration from Catholic countries that gave birth to the actual Know Nothing Party.”  This thesis statement even uses the “they say/I say” pattern that is all the rage in composition instruction right now. 

In conclusion, I will restate my thesis:  No thesis, my ass, Jennifer.

Comment #26: A.  on  08/19  at  04:23 PM

Jackie @ 7: That “you made your bed” attitude is SO incredibly condescending and unrealistic.  I have yet to hear anyone seriously suggest withholding medical treatment under any circumstance as a form of punishment—except, of course, for abortion.  And torture.

“Yeah, she took a few safety courses, wore all the right gear and followed the rules of the slope, but it WAS her decision to go skiing in the first place.  That leg is badly broken and might get infected and maybe she’ll never walk again, but no one forced her to go skiing.  If we don’t set it or push the bones back in, maybe she’ll learn her lesson.”

These people want women to literally suffer the consequences.

Comment #27: Secret Agent Norman  on  08/19  at  04:26 PM

Another example of the Catholic Church’s “respect” for women was the excommunication of the 80-pound 9 year-old who they expected to bear twins after she had been raped by her stepfather, her family who supported the abortion, and the doctors who performed the abortion to save her life.

But the child-molesting stepfather? Decidedly not excommunicated.

“Archbishop Sobrinho defended his action. Asked why he did not excommunicate the 23-year-old stepfather, he said: “He committed an extremely serious crime. But that crime, according to canon law, is not punished with automatic excommunication.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/brazil/4968239/Brazils-president-attacks-Vatican-for-condemning-nine-year-old-rape-victims-abortion.html

My goodness, but that’s some “respect” for both the sanctity of life—if it’s that of a 9 year old girl.

Sure, excommunication is fairytale mumbo jumbo, but it’s part and parcel of their fairy tale mumbo jumbo, which keep abortion in Brazil illegal for most women.

Comment #28: judybrowni  on  08/19  at  04:27 PM

The paternalistic infantilization of women by the anti-choice movement makes my blood boil. I think I would actually be less offended if they approached their obvious loathing of women by just coming out and saying “Women are evil bitches” rather than the vomit-inducing “Women are decent creatures, but they’re just too damn stupid to make decisions for themselves.” The problem with openly acknowledging their belief that women are just evil is that it would remove all doubt about what monumental assholes anti-choicers really are. Part of their hook is putting on a pretend show of “concern” for the welfare of women dealing with unexpected pregnancies.

Comment #29: DTGslu2K  on  08/19  at  04:31 PM

Dave Fried,

Actually, doctrine says that all Catholics are bound to follow their conscience, even if it goes against the pope himself.  So following Catholic doctrine, for the non-sheep, isn’t so scary at all.  Because at the end of the day you have an obligation to your moral sense.

Amanda,

Thank you so much for writing the Slate piece.  Recently, I had been flirting with going back to the church.  That tapered off on its own for other reasons, but this action by the Vatican just horrifies me.  It goes to show that they really don’t think abortion is murder (like you pointed out, they weren’t offering to hand out mass forgiveness to murderers, who are not automatically excommunicated) but really, there is a desire to control women.  And since women are having these abortion thingys, why not give them a get out of jail free card so they will be sooo grateful.  I just find it disgusting.  It strikes me as a particularly nasty twist on indulgences. 

And about the whole “Amanda is upset” argument (if it can be called that) that Ms. Fulwiler is making.  Let’s pretend that there was much weeping and rending of hair when Amanda wrote this piece (haha).  Even if that were true, that does not invalidate any argument Amanda is making.  Amanda could be an emotionless Vulcan.  She could be amused.  She could be irritated.  She could be ragey.  She could be sad.  That does not change whether the arguments she makes are in fact valid.

Finally, about that whole “dignity of womankind” thing that the church believes it is upholding.  Well, perhaps they believe this because they aren’t actually talking to any women.  It stems from a belief that sex is “disordered” unless it takes place in marriage and you want to have a baby, not just bond with your (opposite-sex) spouse.  But the truth is, and this is one of my problems not just with Catholicism (and I should say, doctrinaire Catholics, because some of us do follow the requirement that we think for ourselves) is that it has no basis in fact.  We can study people and tell when it is that sex hurts them, and when it is that sex is a positive in their life.  And from that, we know that sex isn’t only good (or necessarily good) when it is happening in a marriage between a previously-virgin man and woman who are trying to have children.

So that is the problem with the Church’s view on good sex and bad sex—it doesn’t stand up to empiricism.  Now, a way around that is to say that we are talking about *morally* good sex versus *morally* evil sex.  But I don’t buy that either, because personally, I think that if there is a God, that God would not want people to suffer harm.  So my own personal ethics (and no god required) involve doing our best to determine whether an involvement with another person, whether sexual or not, helps or harms that person.  And also, I think that we should come up with the rules of the sexual game based on what does and does not hurt ourselves and others.

I do not see the Church doing any of that work.  I really don’t.  Which may have something to do with the fact that we have a celibate clergy and celibate nuns.  Not that they are perfect in their vows, because they are not, but they are not dealing with the morality of sexuality on the ground, because their only experience of it is defined as a sin, a screw-up.

Comment #30: Ismone  on  08/19  at  04:33 PM

That does not change whether the arguments she makes are in fact valid.

Well, how the hell am I supposed to tell if an argument is valid or not? Do I just go by whether I like the person? I thought that wasn’t allowed.

Comment #31: junk science  on  08/19  at  04:40 PM

@Comment #23: antiope on 08/19 at 04:05 PM

I was just reading that New Yorker piece on Bachmann today and there’s a similar line in there about how happy she became once she turned her life over to god. There really is something in their world view about giving up control (though I’m still not clear on what that means, in a practical sense), which is ironic given how obsessed they are with “personal responsibility,” especially on reproductive rights.

There is an interesting ironic rhyme here to the post that Ms. Marcotte recently made about Illusions of Control, and how one should not delude oneself that one has control of politics.

I think that Ms. Marcotte was arguing for a kind of balance in ideas of personal control, and examining what craziness happens when your sense of control gets out of balance. Bachmann, by contrast, would seem to possess no control, and total control, both at the same time! I don’t know what that is, maybe control madness?

Comment #32: atheist  on  08/19  at  04:46 PM

And about the whole “Amanda is upset” argument (if it can be called that) that Ms. Fulwiler is making.  Let’s pretend that there was much weeping and rending of hair when Amanda wrote this piece (haha).  Even if that were true, that does not invalidate any argument Amanda is making.  Amanda could be an emotionless Vulcan.  She could be amused.  She could be irritated.  She could be ragey.  She could be sad.  That does not change whether the arguments she makes are in fact valid.

WORD

Comment #33: atheist  on  08/19  at  04:57 PM

DAS at #17, I’m sure that would be there position, especially if I told them the man involved is 20 years younger and of a different race.

“Bad woman” or not, it’s my body, and my choice….and my BRAIN which gets to make the decision. The idea that people think poverty and/or disability should condemn people to a life without pleasure or sex is just so…I don’t think I have the right word. Nauseating? Shocking?

But perhaps I see it that way because I realize we are all just one accident, one diagnosis, one wrong decision away from those things.

I’d been, after a lifetime of work/volunteering in this area, sort of resting a tad on my laurels and saying “Well, this really sucks but young women need to step up and make this their fight now!” I never imagined I’d find myself here at my age. Saying “I’d never” is usually the first step to finding oneself exactly there - I find the universe tends to have a twisted sense of humor, and hubris often gets us brought up short. Thanks for the support.

Comment #34: Broce  on  08/19  at  05:36 PM

Melissa MacEwan’s line “I’m not mad, I’m contemptuous” comes in handy, esp. when faced with internet trolls.

Comment #35: JilliefromChile  on  08/19  at  05:37 PM

And, like a lot of crazy ideas in our culture, we have contraception to thank for it. Now that there’s widespread access to contraception, our young women are told not that sex creates babies, but that unprotected sex creates babies. They’re assured that sex can be safely separated from its life-giving potential, as long as they use artificial birth control. From a secular point of view, it might sound like a nice, pro-woman message.

I was always a bit confused by this logic.  Contraceptives have been around for a long time.  They aren’t new, just more effective.  What’s more, even cavemen could figure out how to pull out before knocking out a wad’o'babyjuice.  And then there’s sterile men and women who have perfectly active sex lives.

Sex has been separated from life-giving wonderful happy moonberry Springtime-for-Hitler magic baby making process for about as long as people have had the rudimentary understanding of how procreation works.

If you don’t believe me, just ask anyone who is gay.

Comment #36: Zifnab  on  08/19  at  05:48 PM

“if you can’t afford a baby right now, then don’t have sex”.  I suspect this mentality is even stronger amongst Catholics because in their community, not having sex is a valid (and in fact celebrated) life choice.

Frankly, not having sex should always be a valid life choice—being positive about sex doesn’t mean that you think everyone should always be having it.  There are good reasons to delay sex, or forgo it for a while, and no one should ever be made to feel like remaining a virgin or not having sex is a bad idea.  I chose not to have sex at certain times in my life for various reasons, and those are not decisions I regret. 

As a generally thoughtful religious person, people like Fulwiler drive me nuts.  Doubt and critical thinking and developing your own conscience are absolutely crucial to having grown-up faith.  I remember one sermon where the priest said that if your conscience tells you the Pope is wrong, you are obligated to follow your conscience, and these fundie Catholics got really angry and walked out.  For me, it was a really liberating thing to hear, that it was not just okay but necessary to question and doubt and use your brain, but for them, it was really threatening.  I figure God gave me a mind for a reason, and I kind of have an obligation to use it. 

I agree that in many cases a woman getting an abortion does indicate a failure—usually, a failure to provide quality sex ed and access to affordable and reliable contraceptives.  In my ideal world, no one would need to use abortion as birth control because everyone would be able to prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place.  Abortion is a surgical procedure, which carries inherent risks—and while having it be legal reduces some of those risks, it does not eliminate them.  So I guess I am one of the “safe, legal, and rare” people.  But it’s not a failure because women are idiots and passive recipients of the Pill and abortions. 

I think that many people are relieved not to have to think for themselves, because thinking for yourself is hard!  And religion can be one way to avoid thinking for yourself.  But the few people I know who I think are truly devout—they really think hard about moral issues.  They struggle to figure out the right thing to do in complicated circumstances.  They have some hard-and-fast rules, but they recognize that applying their principles in the real world is hard.  They don’t feel like they have easy answers.  They doubt.  They question.  They admit they don’t have answers for everything.  They are basically the opposite of fundies who want someone else to tell them what to do.  Some people seek and cling to belief systems (not just religion) that free them from the burden of thinking for themselves, because that’s really what they want.  Some people just don’t want to do the hard work of being moral beings—and you can tell it because of the ease with which they accept black-and-white rules and with which they judge others who are different.  They might even switch systems (the “conversion” stories) but the underlying trait is the same—they will switch to another system that provides the same level of certainty and sheepiness.  They haven’t really changed inside at all.

Comment #37: Kit-Kat  on  08/19  at  06:00 PM

Kit-Kat, you reminded me that my mother used to say “God gave you a brain and expects you to use it!”
Fulwiler further distorts the Guttmacher Institute’s bad statistics.  They proposed a 95% effective birth control would result in 70% of couples experiencing a pregnancy over 10 years, while Fulwiler changes it to 99%.  But for some reason Guttmacher takes that 95% effectiveness rate as 5% getting pregnant EACH MONTH, while any other statistics I’ve ever seen mean that failure rate is PER YEAR, which obviously results in a lot fewer pregnancies.  And the failure rate of properly-used birth control pills is under 1% per year, which means over 10 years fewer than 10% would get pregnant.  That’s still a reason that abortion is needed in case of failure, but a far cry from Fulwiler’s “everybody gets pregnant eventually when they use birth control, so why bother?”

Comment #38: gretchen  on  08/20  at  01:21 AM

That’s still a reason that abortion is needed in case of failure, but a far cry from Fulwiler’s “everybody gets pregnant eventually when they use birth control, so why bother?”

Funnily enough, that’s exactly what the lady at the CareNet crisis pregnancy center told me. That “almost every” women she sees had been using contraception, and if you’re having sex you’ll probably end up pregnant eventually, so I should really consider whether having sex is “worth it.”

I paused for a second, then asked, “Are you asking me if the stress of a pregnancy scare makes having sex not worth the trouble?”

She nodded expectantly.

“Well, sex is awesome. It’s definitely worth it.”

The look on her face was priceless.

Comment #39: SallyStrange  on  08/20  at  03:55 AM

I should clarify: I went there to investigate, not because I was actually seeking help with an unplanned pregnancy.

Comment #40: SallyStrange  on  08/20  at  03:56 AM

last time i checked, saul of tarsus was the only true convert, and even he had to get hit by a bolt of lightning first. everyone else is just a wannabe, which leads me to ms. fulwiler, who strikes me (after reading more of her stuff) as kind of a middle-class idiot. she also hasn’t had much luck with that whole “contraception” thing, explaining the five children, and her antipathy towards contraception in general.

as well, she claims to be a web site developer. clearly, this cannot be, since she also claims no free will and, as a woman, being too stupid to make any decisions on her own. i can’t imagine a client would see those traits as positive, unless they are as stupid as she claims to be.

is there something in conservative religiosity that causes women to become complete, fricking morons? or are women who are complete, fricking morons just naturally drawn to conservative religiosity?

hey, people want to know, dammit!

Comment #41: cpinva  on  08/20  at  04:19 AM

gretchen, Guttmacher doesn’t have bad stats.  Those stats aren’t stats on contraception effectiveness.  The stats are on the habits of women getting abortions—-much different thing!  If you go elsewhere on their site, you’ll see that they record effectiveness stats differently, and that’s for different reasons.  After all, not all unintended pregnancies result in abortions.  You can’t use “women having abortions” as a meaningful measure of contraception effectiveness.  So the error is completely on Fulwiler’s part.  She was trying to use the most “shocking” stats she could find.

Guttmacher’s point in collecting these stats is that they’re interested in correcting the public record on what women getting abortion are “like”.  And part of that is to examine their contraception use.  Since abortion reduction is actually a pro-choice goal, it’s also important to see if there’s gaps in usage that could be filled with access, education, or if we’re looking at a contraception usage rate that’s unalterable.

Comment #42: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/20  at  09:46 AM

I’ve met a few people who got a lot out of the “surrender of control” aspect of Western religions.  Some of them were people in truly untenable situations, abused daily by authority figures.  They let go of the idea that they had autonomy, because it was killing them to contrast their ideal worlds with the worlds they lived in.

The rest had anxiety disorders, and the surrender theology let them quiet the demons which had been close to driving them to suicide.

I have sympathy for both, but there’s no generalization there—if you aren’t the victim of daily inescapable torture or suffering from anxiety issues, you won’t get a lot out of the surrender meme.

Comment #43: Punditus Maximus  on  08/20  at  12:40 PM

I’ve seen that too, Punditus. 

cpinva-I have Catholic family and some of them are very smart women.  But Catholicism just reflects the message we already have from a patriarchal society.  Men are in charge; the ones in the highest positions will think about the hard things and decide for everyone else.  Part of the attraction of Catholicism is that it’s very hierarchical - from the infallibile Pope, to the priests he grants powers to forgive others for their abortions, down to the sinners who go to priests to be granted forgiveness.  Men have power, women are good for serving men (including the male God) and for reproduction.  The difference is, at least within the church they acknowledge men’s power, try to provide explanations for it, and often talk about women’s expected self-sacrifice with admiration.  If you’re going to suffer and be powerless anyway, why not at least have it be meaningful?  When confronted with a lifetime of being beaten down for resisting the patriarchy, why is it stupidity to latch onto a system that provides some protection, permission to stop fighting, and a framework that at least pays lip service to the value of your suffering?

Comment #44: Nimravid  on  08/20  at  02:11 PM

With regards to the sex equals women bad and pregnancy just punishment argument that anti-choicers love to make, it is amazing on how many levels it is a fail.

I mean, sure it relies on obscene misconceptions of what women are like, what childbirth is like, what sex is to 99% of the population, what the actual real life consequences of a shame filled society versus a contraceptive and consensual sexuality has on the abortion rate among other things, and so on.

But it also shouldn’t be able to work even if we accepted their arguments. Women who have sex had a choice at sex, but chose to sin, so they must give birth to a child as punishment.

We don’t punish people by withholding medical care and we certainly don’t withhold medical care because of the religious or “personal” viewpoints of other people. Hell, sometimes, we don’t withhold medical care because of the religious or personal viewpoints of the person who needs the healthcare.

And yet, they’ve successfully gotten a lot of people to think this is all right, because it’s just stupid bitches, yo. We don’t argue that there shouldn’t be treatment for heart attacks or IBS because those symptoms may possibly stem from beef consumption and as such would go against the beliefs of Hindus that such consumption is a voluntary action of sin and the person made a choice to have that sin when he ordered his all-meat patty with special sauce.

Nor do we refuse to treat those with liver problems because those could stem from alcohol abuse and that would be viewed as a conscious sin by the Mormons and Muslims.

Nor do we refuse to treat anyone for anything because Christian Scientists believe that going to a doctor is a direct blasphemy against God and a slight against his healing powers and so coming to meet them was a conscious choice of sin.

And yet, we’re supposed to say, oh yeah, sex is a sin against God so no treatment for you, you had a choice at the point of fucking, even if you don’t at all maintain that sexuality is a sinful action. And it definitely includes the poor saps who went along with sexuality is evil except for certain times and found out, whoops, sometimes that has an accident and there is no way you can possibly raise a child at the moment.

And that is the point where all anti-choicer arguments fail. I mean, they are wrong about everything else and really this is all a proxy battle for whether or not women are viewed as free individuals or escaped slaves who need to be returned to the Plantation, but all of their actions hinge on their idea that their personal religious belief is allowed to prevent medically recognized and medically ethical medical procedures.

And if they want an exception for their crusade, then we need to roll up all medicine because as long as there is a Christian Scientist in the world, then there will always be someone who has a problem with all medical procedures for personal religious reasons.

But of course, they want their triple bypass while arguing the women need to suffer a pregnancy entirely for humiliation.

Comment #45: Cerberus  on  08/20  at  02:24 PM

You know birth control was nearly approved by the Catholic Church? John XXIII convened a committee on it, but died before their report was final. Though they recommended allowing birth control, the new pontiff, Pope Paul, was nervous about what the reaction would be, so he swept in under the rug and church doctrine remained the same. It seems to me that the Vatican hierarchy, and this pope in particular, feeds on willful ignorance, even of Church history, to keep their views on “absolute truth” intact. Making them just as human as everybody else.

Comment #46: Liz212  on  08/20  at  06:43 PM

When confronted with a lifetime of being beaten down for resisting the patriarchy, why is it stupidity to latch onto a system that provides some protection, permission to stop fighting, and a framework that at least pays lip service to the value of your suffering?

Not stupidity, but something else.  When you latch onto the system, you become part of that system, part of the machinery that beat you down for resisting, and that will beat down on those who come after.

Comment #47: rain  on  08/20  at  10:19 PM

SallyStrange, 40:

I paused for a second, then asked, “Are you asking me if the stress of a pregnancy scare makes having sex not worth the trouble?”
She nodded expectantly.
“Well, sex is awesome. It’s definitely worth it.”
The look on her face was priceless.

Huh. I guess they really aren’t prepared for someone to come out and admit that sex is awesome. Or that awesomeness is a good enough reason to do something.

Comment #48: Hershele Ostropoler  on  08/20  at  10:53 PM

You should have asked her if the stress of a potential car accident keeps her from driving, or whether the risk of injury should keep you from practicing athletics.

Comment #49: JilliefromChile  on  08/21  at  04:24 PM

@rain, Yes, I agree.  I think there’s a moral difference between being complicit in your own abuse and being complicit in other people’s abuse.  And the line isn’t very clear- if you’re part of the church you’re still part of that system and enabling it.  Even if you only participate in the innocuous parts, it’s like joining the KKK and saying you’re only there for the bake sales.

I don’t think of it as stupidity though.  Rationalizing the things you do to live is not stupidity.  People like Fulwiler go a step beyond rationalizing their capitulation and actively work to oppress others.  I don’t know how to explain it except maybe under the “illusion of control” paradigm.  The two main choices if you want to feel like you have control are first, to have actual power, and second, to take what’s going to happen anyway and go along with it “of your own free will.”  If you can’t have actual power then there’s only one choice.

Comment #50: Nimravid  on  08/21  at  04:29 PM

I just have to note that I love the term “god botherers”, but don’t hear it much out here on the east coast.

Comment #51: helen w. h.  on  08/21  at  09:02 PM

And the line isn’t very clear- if you’re part of the church you’re still part of that system and enabling it.

That seems like a pretty clear line to me.

People like Fulwiler go a step beyond rationalizing their capitulation and actively work to oppress others.

So you don’t actually agree with me.  You want to create a difference between Fulwiler and the Catholic women in your family.  But what I was saying is that they both work to oppress others.  You can’t avoid it if you belong to the church.  There may be differences in degree (with some only adding to the legitimization of the institution; others deliberately and with malice trying to hurt women), but not in principle. 

Another other thing you said in response to cpinva @ 42:

But Catholicism just reflects the message we already have from a patriarchal society.

We shouldn’t pretend that the catholic church is some sort of passive recipient of cultural mores.

Comment #52: rain  on  08/22  at  12:08 AM

It seems that for men and women MRA’s alike, the key is that they have a lot of trouble making female friends, and are bitter about it. 

Their reaction, normal enough, is to assume that the problem is women themselves.  This is more jarring coming from a woman, of course, and a little sillier, but understandable enough.

Comment #53: Ape Man  on  08/22  at  10:28 AM

True, Ape Man. But if women are so terrible, why bother trying to be friends with them? Why don’t MRAs just hang out with their own kind? There certainly seem to be enough woman-haters of both sexes to go around. Why bother with people they dislike so much?

It looks like a lot of assholes have the good taste not to be satisfied with the company of other assholes. They want good people to like them. They want respect from people they themselves respect.

Comment #54: junk science  on  08/22  at  11:57 AM

MRAs are addicted to victimization and rage.  It’s a cheap substitute for self-respect and passion.

Comment #55: Punditus Maximus  on  08/22  at  12:53 PM

@Comment #47: Liz212—actually, if I remember right, the Pill was invented by a Catholic man who thought it would pass muster with the Church because it used a woman’s natural hormones.  And the lay panel that XXIII convened recommended authorizing it.  But XXIII didn’t authorize it, and the next guy rejected it.  So close, and yet so far!

Comment #56: Kit-Kat  on  08/22  at  01:52 PM

You know, if you don’t want to be “punished” by giving birth and taking care of the child, you can always give birth to the child and then let him/her be adopted.

Comment #57: sunny3  on  08/22  at  09:50 PM

So you don’t actually agree with me.  You want to create a difference between Fulwiler and the Catholic women in your family.

There may be differences in degree (with some only adding to the legitimization of the institution; others deliberately and with malice trying to hurt women), but not in principle.

I realized when you called me on it that yes, I was trying to create a difference between Fulwiler and the Catholic women in my family.  Really, few of the Catholic women in my family even fit the more benign “adding to the legitimization of the institution;” some are worse than Fulwiler when it comes to willingness to actively oppress women, and they’ve caused real harm. The line is pretty damn clear but I was trying to excuse it anyway. And you were kind enough not to point it out, but the line extends to making excuses for members of the church as well.

No, the Catholic church is not a passive recipient of culture.  I mean that oppression of women is universal even outside of what is created by religion.  Someone looking for meaning in their oppression will find a system that continues what they’re already experiencing, and yes, adds to it, intensifies it and perpetuates it, but with an explanation of why their suffering is so necessary and right.

Comment #58: Nimravid  on  08/22  at  10:32 PM
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