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Next entry: CSA Week 21: The Week It Frigging Snowed Edition Previous entry: Music Fridays: The Dangers of Marketing the Douchebags Edition

They done fixed liberal dudes up right

FeminismHistory

I try, and often fail, to end the week on a positive note. But this week, I can actually do that for you. Online, for obvious reasons, most of the fussing over NY Mag's look at feminist writing was over the piece on internet feminism. But I also want to recommend this piece on the history of Ms. Magazine, which may be a bit stale these days, but really had a lot to offer in the day.

And one thing really jumped out at me and made me glad. I think it can be a little depressing reading some feminist history because you really see how far we haven't come in so many ways. Back in the 60s and 70s, feminists were fighting the same forces that we're fighting on every front from sexual violence to men speaking to you like you're a child just because you have a vagina. In many ways, we've backslid; after all, we're still fighting the fucking abortion wars they really did have a reason to believe they'd won. Still, this article is a reminder that they won many important battles. The most obvious ones are things like giving women (some) access to male-only jobs---we have the legal right to them now, even if we still face discrimination. Gay rights have come a long way. Women are not only able to have their own money and property, but they're basically expected nowadays to pay as much attention to that as men. If you didn't have a credit card in your own name because you're married, people now would assume that you're a part of a religious cult, but that sort of thing was normal then. 

But one thing stood out to me that isn't discussed much but is really obvious reading this: they succeeded in improving the everyday interactions between men and women.  Well, maybe not for everyone, but absolutely they did on the left. This article leaves it very clear that in supposedly liberal, pro-feminist circles back then, men still felt fully empowered to treat women like meat, or openly support this woman over that woman, career-wise, because they thought she was hot. And worse. Like this story of how Warren Beatty treated Gloria Steinem, even though he was a politically liberal guy who supported the ERA and probably considered himself a feminist sympathizer. 

She said she’d had dinner with Beatty in London, and he got down on all fours and looked under the tablecloth to see her legs. She was wearing a high miniskirt, and you know, she had these perfect legs. She said to me, “Okay, look, let’s just see if Warren Beatty will do it first.”

So, that's changed a lot. There's still a lot of sexism in liberal circles, and even just sexualized idiocy like this, but it's much less and much less obnoxious. Jon Stewart isn't going to crawl under a table to leer at some woman's legs that is supposedly a colleague. On the contrary, when wingnut blogger Ann Althouse made a fuss over Jessica Valenti appearing in public with boobs still attached to her body, the male liberals of the blogosphere largely defended Jessica. In the more professional-left world that Steinem was running in, men who leer like this are the exception, and back then they were the rule. Obviously, there's flirting and hooking up, but that's not the issue here---no one is against that! But being treated like meat by the majority of your male allies, to the point where they expect to get away with shit like this? I'm sure it happens, but not that much. Not anything like it used to be. So big win on that front. Now for the world. 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 05:29 PM • (28) Comments

Holeee sheeeit at that little anecdote from the past. Sometimes change really hits you in the face its so drastic.

Comment #1: Roivas  on  11/04  at  08:12 PM

When did the term “glass ceiling” come into use? Because that couldn’t even have been invented until after people stopped believing that women only took corporate jobs to find a husband.

Comment #2: paul  on  11/04  at  08:26 PM

Back in the day, men were men, and they had no interest in how women felt about any kind of sexual interactions with them. There was none of this pansy talk about mutual desire. They knew women were there to be leered at, harassed, and resented when they didn’t have sex with you.

Comment #3: junk science  on  11/04  at  09:35 PM

Y’all have no idea how much feminism has helped me as a man with some truly awful programming I got from my Catholic family, especially (sigh) my mom.  I can’t imagine how bad my life would have been if I hadn’t had access to information that let me start creating ways of living that made sense for me and be a good person.

Ok, maybe some of y’all raised Catholics or fundies have some idea.

Comment #4: Punditus Maximus  on  11/04  at  10:45 PM

I think one thing that will really help is when the last generation of old bats who think that all women, including themselves, are useless finally dies off.  I actually get more “Girls can’t fix cars!” crap from old women than anyone else.  Granted, some of the older guys are kind of patronizing about it, but I’d rather hear “Girl mechanic?  How adorable!” than an automatic assumption that the fact that I have ovaries and functional nipples means I can’t do my job.

Then again, I can’t tell you how many teenaged girls come in and are all “Ha ha, I’m a girl so I don’t know anything about cars.”  Actually, I think I just depressed myself.

Comment #5: Spooky Skeptic  on  11/04  at  11:15 PM

I think feminism has also helped men to become better fathers.  I don’t really know the statistics, but anecdotally the men in my family have been completely apathetic and lazy as fathers, except for the current generation.  We all grew up with a father who couldn’t and wouldn’t do any childcare work, to the extent that my mom had to drag me along everywhere she went because my dad couldn’t handle being alone with me.  Yet both of my brothers are pretty involved in their kids’ lives.  They still don’t do equal work to their wives, and nobody gets a cookie and a medal for changing their own kid’s diaper, but they’re better than our father and our grandfathers.  They must have learned this from somewhere outside of home.

I’ll never settle for a lazy man who won’t do his fair share, so seeing my brothers and other men around me acting like they should makes me think that eventually I will find someone to meet my high standards.

Comment #6: bananacat  on  11/04  at  11:18 PM

@ Punditus Maximus My mother was SERIOUSLY Catholic and SERIOUSLY feminist…so, I can vouch that not all folks raised Catholic will have had that experience. I’m sorry that you did. When I got older, I found my personal beliefs to be in conflict with most things the Catholic church had to say, so I dumped Catholicism in favour of Feminism. I’m sure this saddened Mom, but she had encouraged her kids to argue and challenge authority and to think for themselves. If she criticized my choice, she never did it to my face.

@Spooky Skeptic I really think this stuff varies a lot, in each generation and that there’s lots of regional/class stuff mixed up in it. I know older women who drove trucks and hunted and trapped. I’ve spent time in towns where pretty much everyone’s mothers and grandmothers had done shiftwork in fish plants, back when there was still fish. Where I live now, the college has an awesome program to introduce girls to trades. Highschool girls get to spend a week or so checking out the shops, handling the equipment and meeting the instructors. I notice quite a few young women here welding, working in carpentry, fixing cars/trucks and there’s a woman helicopter mechanic too.  In smaller communities in my area, mining and roadwork are often the best paying jobs. So, you see women working in camps and driving heavy equipment.

Those teenager girls who said they know nothing about cars? Now know that YOU know lots about cars. And that it is something girls CAN know about, in public, in front of other people and even learn about, do as a job. They’ll remember that down the road when they are thinking about things they might want to do.

Comment #7: kusawa  on  11/04  at  11:59 PM

She said she’d had dinner with Beatty in London, and he got down on all fours and looked under the tablecloth to see her legs. She was wearing a high miniskirt, and you know, she had these perfect legs. She said to me, “Okay, look, let’s just see if Warren Beatty will do it first.”

I wonder if part of the reason this is no longer considered cool, is that for us liberal males of a certain age, we grew up with our moms explaining how they left the university because their professor offered a choice between sex and flunking, or other stories of that nature. Somehow it is different when it’s your mom explaining it to you.

Comment #8: atheist  on  11/05  at  08:20 AM

Now for the world, indeed. Hopefully starting with the skeptic’s community.

Comment #9: Cortex  on  11/05  at  02:56 PM

It wasn’t that long ago that I stopped on my way out of work to give someone a jump-start. The dude was all like, “What’s GIRL like you doing with jumper cables!” Gee, I dunno, cuz I drive a car and stuff? I should have just walked away and let him fend for himself. He obviously didn’t get how insulting he was being, though, he thought it was just a funny joke, and it was REALLY cold out.

Comment #10: SallyStrange  on  11/05  at  04:39 PM

If ever an anecdote was about 30 standard deviations from the norm, it would have to involve Warren Beatty’s inappropriateness.

Comment #11: norbizness  on  11/05  at  06:44 PM

I’m a guy, and I get lots of crap from guys about how I don’t know anything about cars. What makes it funnier is that the person I had help me with my cars is a friend’s wife, whose father was an auto worker worried she wouldn’t find use for her art school career and made her learn a trade as well. My co-workers were a bit shocked that I had a woman work on my car.

Comment #12: Mark Temporis  on  11/05  at  06:49 PM

Even if this change is restricted to cultural corners with a more lefty character, that includes many college campuses. And lots of women pass through these campuses at an important stage in their lives, so in this way the effect disseminates widely.

Not that college is some paradise of equality, by any means. But you can’t get away with being Beatty in the classroom.

Comment #13: JasonB  on  11/05  at  07:55 PM

Feminism, specificially third wave feminism was the first thing to give me hope from Catholicism and continues to be a major player in helping undo the damage.

Comment #14: bomberE  on  11/05  at  09:11 PM

Then again, I can’t tell you how many teenaged girls come in and are all “Ha ha, I’m a girl so I don’t know anything about cars.”  Actually, I think I just depressed myself.
If it’s any consolation, I’m a guy, and I can’t perform any but the most minor of repairs and maintenance on my car (i.e. replacing burned out light bulbs).

Comment #15: ckitching  on  11/06  at  02:13 AM

Yea, I’m also a guy without a shred of car know-how.

Comment #16: atheist  on  11/06  at  05:27 AM

The Beatty anecdote reminds me of when I was applying for my first postdoc.  I was at my field’s annual conference, and had a few interviews lined up.  The senior guy interviewing me for one (fairly prestigious) job suggested we do the interview outside since it was nice out.  I agreed, although I was dressed up for interviews and my dissertation presentation.  And guess what?  The only place I could sit without getting grass-stained was a wall, and he sat at my feet.  Silly me, I didn’t think I needed to dress so that potential bosses couldn’t look up my skirt.  So I tried to be brilliant and scientific for an hour while keeping my legs rigidly crossed and immobile. 

This was probably the beginning of my disenchantment with my academic field.  Now that I’m a mere computer programmer, I’ve run into lots of jerks and assholes, but no one as sexist as half the senior men in my field were.

Comment #17: RP  on  11/06  at  01:33 PM

My Ph D adviser was one of the first women in her field and the stories she told about women in grad school in the 60s/70s was astonishing.  Besides the usual (“I won’t work with you because I don’t work with women”, “You should drop out and raise babies”, etc), she would be required to do infinitely more than the other students to prove her worth (i.e. everyone report on an article for next week, but you report on a 300 page book in German, etc).  That’s not to mention the more subtle sexism that women students still face today.  And the profs were all good liberals.  I was already a (male) feminist, but it was a real eye opener.

Comment #18: SK  on  11/06  at  05:41 PM

That New Yorker article rocks like a hurricane! I really love anything historical about social movements of any kind, and this was especially interesting to me, as it allowed me to fill in a bit more about the zeitgeist of the 70s. So thanks.

Comment #19: atheist  on  11/06  at  09:44 PM

My mom was a grad student in the 70s.  She told me she was just a few credits from graduating, but she was about to get married and so the adviser told her just to quit.  She’s never upset when she tells me this story.  It’s like she’s relieved that she got permission to just give up.  Then she tells me about all the sexual harassment type of stuff that went on in her department, but says it was “no big deal” because no one was touching her or anything like that.  I get the feeling she genuinely thinks that sexual harassment that isn’t touching or propositioning (dirty jokes, looking at porn, etc.) is no big thing. 

And she would probably call herself a feminist. 

Different strokes for different ... uh ... generations, I guess. 

Most of the professors in my field are ladies, so I feel pretty comfortable.  Heck, even a couple of the male professors I’ve had were pretty feminist for old men.  I don’t know how comfortable I would feel if I were going into math or engineering or something like that.  In my field it’s just assumed I’ll do well because I’m a girl.  Me, I think I do well in it because I’m just good at it.  But whatever.

Comment #20: BonAppetit  on  11/06  at  10:05 PM

It isn’t just liberals. Conservatives and anti-feminists may be infuriating, but even many of them have gotten the memo on sexual harassment. Workplaces in the 1950’s not only didn’t have many women; the ones they did have, especially if they were subordinates, suffered every nature of harassment and were expected to endure it.

For all the problems that women face now, working conditions have vastly improved, even for women who work with conservatives. They have feminism to thank for it.

Comment #21: Dilan Esper  on  11/06  at  11:51 PM

Spooky, 5:

Then again, I can’t tell you how many teenaged girls come in and are all “Ha ha, I’m a girl so I don’t know anything about cars.”  Actually, I think I just depressed myself.

I’m amazed people actually say that to a female mechanic. At least the old ladies aren’t being normative like that.

Comment #22: Hershele Ostropoler  on  11/07  at  10:04 AM

I wonder if part of the reason this is no longer considered cool, is that for us liberal males of a certain age, we grew up with our moms explaining how they left the university because their professor offered a choice between sex and flunking, or other stories of that nature. Somehow it is different when it’s your mom explaining it to you.

It can’t hurt. My mom’s story wasn’t so bad,  she was a really excellent student from a family who could afford it. She wanted to be a veterinarian and the three top schools for that in the early 60s were: Cornell, which didn’t admit women to vet school; Kansas State, which admitted two women per class and required that they be each other’s lab partners; and Michigan State, which had no formal, at least, regulations of any sort.

But that definitely left an impression on me. Along with my parents’ general feminism about things.

Comment #23: witless chum  on  11/07  at  11:57 AM

Then she tells me about all the sexual harassment type of stuff that went on in her department, but says it was “no big deal” because no one was touching her or anything like that.  I get the feeling she genuinely thinks that sexual harassment that isn’t touching or propositioning (dirty jokes, looking at porn, etc.) is no big thing.

I can identify with this actually.  There are several older, semi-retired doctors in my department who are mostly awesome—they make some fantastic calls, they’re generous, they’re funny, they’re hilariously harsh to the slacker residents who routinely waste my time.

...And then every once in a while there’s (e.g.) a comment about how much leg my coworker’s dress shows.  On balance, working with these doctors is great and I’m loath to think of them as bad or creepy guys.  It’s hard to acknowledge that what they did was bad because I don’t think (and don’t want to think) that they are bad.  I also wouldn’t say I feel intimidated or harassed by these comments—feeling conflicted about them is probably the primary negative effect on me.

Comment #24: themmases  on  11/07  at  12:52 PM

>>I don’t know how comfortable I would feel if I were going into math or engineering or something like that.

Math/Comp Sci seemed like a pit for women when I was there, that was during the dotcom boom (the bust happened at graduation… I stayed for a Masters because I couldn’t justify trying to get a job in the economy).

Half my classmates would have been doing MBAs if it wasn’t 1999. They were all talking about the infinite money they’d be getting at 25 and the party culture was so ingrained that we had teachers actually go “We won’t be doing much this morning, since it’s Friday” (we were in a college town, so all the parties were on Thursday night because Friday people drove back to their home towns instead of going out). We don’t have frats in French universities in Quebec but the mentality was similar (except the guys were often geeks instead of athletes). That’s sort of relevant to how women were treated. Let’s just say when I read misogynistic comments on videogame forums or techie forums, I’m not completely surprised.

The man/woman ratio was about 9:1. I couldn’t name you one woman that was a mediocre student, they were all at least middle of the pack or, often, better (anybody else I believe would not have bothered getting in a male-dominated field). Conventionally attractive women were considered to be dumbasses (evidence or no) by the male students (jokes about ‘sucking up to the teacher, har har’ were overheard sometimes). Plainer girls were considered tomboys for even joining up, and I heard a few “Can you believe she didn’t want to go out with me? She should be thankful anybody is giving her attention.” comments.

I did my best to help out everyone in class. In retrospect I wish I was a bit more feminist awareness back then because I would have been better at having women’s back. Instead my strategy was basically to be decent to everyone, which in itself isn’t bad but it didn’t maybe sufficiently acknowledge that women had it rougher in our classes and that maybe a bit of emotional support might have been appreciated (rather than just support with the course material). At least the women in my classes knew that my help was genuine, unlike that of some of my male counterparts who only wanted an in to their pants, since I had a reputation as just giving out help to anyone (since we were graded ‘on the curve’ I had teachers who were flabbergast at that, since usually their top students are competitive SOBs who sabotage everyone else so they can get A’s).

Comment #25: BlackBloc  on  11/07  at  03:27 PM

“I don’t know how comfortable I would feel if I were going into math or engineering or something like that.”

While I have heard enough awful anecdotes from other people to know that not all engineering departments are great places to be a female student, my experience was pretty good.  The ratio was as bad as anywhere, and almost all of my professors were male, but they seemed to understand the situation and go out of their way to be good allies.  When one of my favorite professors caught wind of a rumor that some male students were planning on wearing misogynist t-shirts to a semi-official event in our department, he made it very clear that he would do everything in his power to have all involved students expelled if the whole thing didn’t end immediately.  I had several male professors encourage me to join the Society of Women Engineers, which had a pretty strong chapter at my school.  Not that there isn’t room for improvement, but when I compare my experience to the stories my mom tells me (she studied engineering in the 70’s) it blows my mind.  Things have really changed.

Comment #26: mamram  on  11/07  at  06:30 PM

I did my best to help out everyone in class. In retrospect I wish I was a bit more feminist awareness back then because I would have been better at having women’s back. Instead my strategy was basically to be decent to everyone, which in itself isn’t bad but it didn’t maybe sufficiently acknowledge that women had it rougher in our classes and that maybe a bit of emotional support might have been appreciated (rather than just support with the course material). At least the women in my classes knew that my help was genuine, unlike that of some of my male counterparts who only wanted an in to their pants, since I had a reputation as just giving out help to anyone (since we were graded ‘on the curve’ I had teachers who were flabbergast at that, since usually their top students are competitive SOBs who sabotage everyone else so they can get A’s).
Comment #25: BlackBloc on 11/07 at 03:27 PM

I was the one offering help to anyone when I was in college, too.  Physics, statistics, math, programming…anything at all.  I never did think that being competitive meant hobbling other people.  Even if the teacher is grading on a curve. 

I gravitate naturally to situations where the rising tide lifts all boats.  Teaching others helps them and helps you.  I bet you’re the same way.

Comment #27: oldfeminist  on  11/07  at  08:22 PM

UMass Lowell’s CE department was roughly 50-50 in the late 90s when I was there getting my 2nd ug degree.  The very top students for all the classes were women, and they clustered closer to the top and middle, but some of the worse were women as well.  I think that was more an effect of self-selection out of the field due to being told how hard it would be “for a girl” more than anything else.  Plastics was probably as good and almost as evenly divided.  My contact with other engr departments was less favorable, to varying degrees.  The worst was CompE, with HW worse than SW, but both pretty bad and heavily male.
U-ID had some issues, but they were mostly subtle and undertoned rather than in the open around me, but that was partly because I was married to a former student who was still around as a researcher and partly due to my previous relationships with most of the profs due to working student support services (I was one of those nagging them for grades for the previous decade, helping them file clearances for incompletes, etc).  It also varied by department, though the bias against non-Mormon among the male students was probably as bad insome of the Depts.  UI engr was and is pretty heavily Mormon.

Comment #28: helen w. h.  on  11/08  at  10:14 AM
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