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Next entry: Friday Genius Ten “Should Have Stayed In Bed” Edition Previous entry: That’s a whole lot of coincidences!

This ain’t no foolin’ around

Title from “Life During Wartime” by the Talking Heads.  And hell, let’s play the video from “Stop Making Sense”, because this song—-with lyrics that imagine complete social breakdown in the U.S.—-kind of make me think of the shock that libertarians would feel if they actually had to live in the relatively lawless utopia they imagine. 

I’m sure Matt thinks he’s being pretty hard on Rand Paul by invoking the term “white supremacy” in his post, but he makes the same mistake that Dave Weigel does in rushing to reassure people that Rand Paul isn’t a racist so much as a hard core ideologue, and that surely his support of segregation is offered more in sorrow than in glee.  This view ignores some pretty damning evidence about Paul’s history and associations, but it also ignores the fact that “principled” libertarians who woefully say that they unfortunately have to promote racist policies against their own moral compass will abandon that principled libertarianism when it breaks in favor of reproductive rights.  “Principled” libertarianism only seems up to making those “hard” choices if oppressed people have to suffer the consequences. Which is why I object to this line of thinking:

The point to make about Paul, however, is that what he suffers from here is an excess of honesty and ideological rigor not an unusual degree of racism.

The abortion question alone makes it clear that Paul doesn’t have an excess of ideological rigor, or even a bounty of it. 

But I’m bothered more by the way that some liberal pundits approach libertarian arguments as if we’re all in some debate club or in a court of law at worst, and this is a matter of everyone presenting arguments to be judged on their supposed rigor and the implications of which don’t fall on the person making the arguments.  Conservatives particularly benefit from this mindset, which is why all of them come fully equipped with a willingness to scream “ad hominem” the second you suggest that making asshole arguments is evidence that the person making them is an asshole. 

Paul isn’t arguing for a debate team or even in the court of law.  He’s a politician who is seeking national office that would allow him to write and vote on legislature.  The standards by which we evaluate his arguments must be very different indeed.  That he supports racist policies is something that we the opposition should highlight without caveats about ideological rigor that is frankly lacking.  Giving him the benefit of the doubt that he’s a principled man is counterproductive and missing the point.  From the perspective of a voter, Paul’s associations with racists and the anti-social, racist results of arguments matter way more when assessing whether he’s a racist than his claims of ideological rigor.  And we should address our arguments to that. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 06:06 PM • (171) Comments

Whether or not Rand Paul is a racist, and the available evidence seems to support the idea that he may be, both he and his father are raging sociopaths like all libertarians with no regard for the well being of anyone else.  Fuck them all.

Comment #1: DrDick  on  05/20  at  06:42 PM

Of course he’s a principled man.

His principle is that racism is good for him.  It’s worked just fine.  It’s a shame that it hasn’t worked out so well for others, but anything that works for Rand is good, and anything that works against Rand is bad.

See, he’s going to cut the budget if he’s elected.  Gut those socialistic programs…except for Medicaid/care payments to doctors.  Those payments shouldn’t be capped because doctors, like the opthamologist he is, should be able to earn a lot of money.

In fact, Paul — who says 50% of his patients are on Medicare — wants to end cuts to physician payments under a program now in place called the sustained growth rate, or SGR. “Physicians should be allowed to make a comfortable living.
from Think Progress

Yes, that’s Rand’s principle: cut social programs that make life better for dirty, lazy others, and leave the ones that help me alone—or better yet, increase those payouts!

It’s only fair.  And principled.

Comment #2: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  05/20  at  06:43 PM

From the perspective of a voter, Paul’s associations with racists and the anti-social, racist results of arguments matter way more when assessing whether he’s a racist than his claims of ideological rigor.  And we should address our arguments to that.

I agree, but unfortunately, in an effort to distract voters from the core issues, Paul and his supporters erect a massive wall of debate-club nerd Libertarian BS. Cutting through that morass in part requires us to first destroy those claims of ideological rigour. Fortunately, as we saw in the last thread with (the admittedly lightweight) AnoNY, it’s fairly easy and fun to do so and press the real debate back where you correctly note it belongs: on racism and pandering to racists.

Comment #3: Gracchus.  on  05/20  at  06:51 PM

Agreed, that’s the way to go about it.  And we need more of that from Matt Y. and Dave Weigel than this “I’m sure he’s not personally a racist” stuff.

Comment #4: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/20  at  07:07 PM

Ron Paul supports “life begins at conception” amendment. Rand wants more federal abortion laws (and by the way, supports the War on Drugs, even marijuana .

How does an abortion work out in practice? All that is being done is banning the professional procedure of abortion in a medical facility, unless you go all Utah and start putting women in prison for having a miscarriage. Or at the very least, starting an investigation for every miscarriage. Which cannot be done unless all menstruation was somehow registered and any lapses were proven to be in order or not.

But having a national ID card is an infringement on God-given rights.

Comment #5: bay of arizona  on  05/20  at  07:10 PM

When I grew up, I learned that one should be able to identify one’s core beliefs by one’s actions, not by the label with which they chose.  So, a liberal is someone who acts like a liberal, not someone who goes around saying “I’m a liberal.”  Similarly, someone is a racist who acts like a racist, regardless of what they chose to call themselves.

No matter how much Rand Paul, Rush Limbaugh, et al protest that they aren’t racists, their actions speak louder than their words.

Comment #6: James  on  05/20  at  07:26 PM

I half-disagree.  I think we *should* insist on judging people’s arguments on their rigor and implications, especially if they’re running for public office.  The debate club/legalism runs aground precisely because it doesn’t do this.  For example, Chris Matthews went on today about how Paul has a “constitutional” objection, and therefore is not a racist.  But the merits of that constitutional objection and its implications were never discussed.

And they should be, because it’s a stupid objection and the implication of it is that it will be much more difficult to ensure that African Americans, women, LGBT people, religious minorities, non-U.S. citizens, etc. are able to participate in basic social and economic life in the U.S., much less to participate as equals.

Instead, we get Matthews et al avoiding any discussion of Paul’s “constitutional objection” in favor of an absurd investigation of whether there exists a logically possible world in which one holds this objection but does not also endorse racism.

This is a doubly damaging tactic because it also tends to sidetrack the also legitimate argument (made here) that by putting forward this objection, Paul is providing evidence that he should not be elected—e.g. because the objection is made in bad faith and shows he is dishonest, because the objection is dumb and shows he is an idiot, or because the objection is racist and shows that he is a racist, etc.

We should be having both of these conversations.  I’d be happy if we were having either (and to their credit, Matthew’s guests did both) but it’s not an overenthusiasm for examining the argument that’s the problem.

Or as Caren says, he is principled, and his principle is racism.

Comment #7: Thom  on  05/20  at  07:28 PM

But having a national ID card is an infringement on God-given rights.

But, you see, God gave rights to white men.

Women are to carry children.  That’s their purpose and any attempt to avoid that fate must be squashed.  We have to protect the rights of the fetus, who might be a white male, and of the possibly white male who impregnated her.

All laws that help Rand are good.  All laws that protect anyone else are bad.

Why can’t people get that?  And why do they keep calling him a racist for it?

Comment #8: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  05/20  at  07:31 PM

I don’t give a flying fuck whether Rand Paul is racist.  I care whether he supports racist policies.  Which he does, eagerly and shamelessly.  Whether, in the depths of his tiny little cinder of a Libertarian heart, he hates black people or loves them like brothers is a matter of complete non-interest to me.

  Watch him in the Rachel Maddow interview, dodging direct questions about the racism of his politics to waste time gushing about what a good, MLK-loving, totally non-racist person he is.  He evidently thinks that proving he’s a non-racist person makes it okay for him to do racist things.  Paul, you little creep, it doesn’t matter why you’re fighting to reinstitute segregation!  It doesn’t matter what abstract ideals and philosophies you can pull out of your ass to explain why you’re fighting to reinstitute segregation!  What matters is that you’re fighting to reinstitute segregation!

In a way, it’s a sign of progress that most conservatives have accepted that being “a racist” is a bad thing.  The thing is, they don’t seem to have grasped that racism is a bad thing.  They seem to think that if they can just dodge the label, they can do whatever racist shit they want with a clear conscience.

Comment #9: Shaenon  on  05/20  at  07:37 PM

I read your quote from Dave completely different. It seems more like he’s saying, “The only thing unique about the Souder scandal is that this Republican is opting to resign.”

The entire GOP is racist as shit. By and large, ditto Libertarians. We’re piling on Rand Paul because he’s honest (and consistent) enough in some of his ideas that we can finally nail the shit to the wall.

Given the beat Dave works, I can see how he’d want to make the point. (Without pissing off WaPo.)

Comment #10: humanadverb  on  05/20  at  07:39 PM

Yeah…

Principles? What fucking principles.

Here’s the rule. If you want to be this hardcore principled person, you have to START, not end, START, where it affects you in negative ways. Once you slash your own paycheck and lower the legally reinforced power of “White Men”, then you can wax ideologically about freedom.

Comment #11: Karmakin  on  05/20  at  07:51 PM

So it seems Paul may end up receiving fire from both sides of the political spectrum.  Progressives and liberals for his support of racist policies and libertarians and conservatives for his later backtracking. 

Begin snark */

*Sigh* What does it take to satisfy those demanding voters?!! Can’t a poor asshole politician like me catch a break, here?!!

/* End snark

As an aside, a NYC indie band Kindergarten covers this very song as seen here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHnNm73_Atw

Comment #12: exholt  on  05/20  at  07:53 PM

“...but it also ignores the fact that “principled” libertarians who woefully say that they unfortunately have to promote racist policies against their own moral compass will abandon that principled libertarianism when it breaks in favor of reproductive rights.”

Yep.

Comment #13: Lisa KS  on  05/20  at  08:00 PM

It reminds me of my ah-ha moment with Nader, when he said he has no regrets about 2000, because even as bad as Dubya was, because Gore would have still been unacceptably bad. Ah… clearly we have different values systems, and yours is fucked up.

Rand believes “freedom” is a more important value than ... well, all civil rights pretty much. That can be entirely coherent and consistent, and you can have a debate club conversation with him.

It is still bullshit.

Comment #14: humanadverb  on  05/20  at  08:04 PM

I think Caren nails it.  Libertarian ideology applies only to white men.  Any laws that threaten white male dominance are obviously highly oppressive and unconstitutional.

Comment #15: BadKitty  on  05/20  at  08:17 PM

Jay Smooth put a video up some time ago that addresses this problem.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0Ti-gkJiXc

Comment #16: Fatman  on  05/20  at  08:28 PM

“Principled Libertarianism” is a contradiction in terms similar to “Compassionate Conservative”.

If there really are such beasts loose in America, they sure do seem extremely difficult to find… unless we agree to redefine “Principled” as meaning “I get to do to anyone else whatever I damn well please”...

Comment #17: MikeEss  on  05/20  at  09:07 PM

This whole thing reminds me of the Walrus crying over the oysters as he gobbled them up in Through the Looking Glass.  I really hope that people can use this controversy to see how, even if it is unintentional, that libertarian and “states’ rights” arguments necessarily perpetuate racism/sexism/classism, etc. So many people use free arguments to think they deserve what they have, but really the freedom of libertarians just leads to a rigid class system in the real world where you can’t just assume away inequality. Somehow I doubt most will make the connection though.

Comment #18: alysia  on  05/20  at  09:08 PM

But I’m bothered more by the way that some liberal pundits approach libertarian arguments as if we’re all in some debate club or in a court of law at worst, and this is a matter of everyone presenting arguments to be judged on their supposed rigor and the implications of which don’t fall on the person making the arguments.

Yup. To be blunt, it’s the province of privileged people who think they’re smart, and it’s exactly what infects law schools, as Jill so brilliantly explained.

It presumes that arguments and beliefs don’t have real impact, as if this is all just a parlor game.

Comment #19: m_leblanc  on  05/20  at  09:32 PM

Join the Cult of Libertarianism:  Chock full of as much truthiness as Scientology, but without the Xenu aftertaste.  Now with extra Bircher goodness!...

Comment #20: MikeEss  on  05/20  at  09:35 PM

But I’m bothered more by the way that some liberal pundits approach libertarian arguments as if we’re all in some debate club or in a court of law at worst, and this is a matter of everyone presenting arguments to be judged on their supposed rigor and the implications of which don’t fall on the person making the arguments.

At one point in the Maddow interview, she once again asks Paul if he would favor some specific form of segregation, and he replies with something like, “Well, I’d like to keep this debate on the intellectual level…”  I’m as big a fan of intellectual debate as anyone, but by “intellectual” Paul seems to mean staying on an abstract, forensics-team plane where he won’t have to explain how his ideas might affect real people in the real world, and can instead blather airily about his odd, narrow definition of “freedom.”  That, and the admirable things he’d do if he owned a time machine.

As people said on the previous thread, libertarianism is basically the right-wing version of communism: it’s defensible, even appealing, on an academic level, but the moment you bring it into the real world it becomes glaringly obvious that it has no connection to the way humans actually behave.

Comment #21: Shaenon  on  05/20  at  10:04 PM

#9: Shaenon FTW, except I’d argue that when you argue for something like reinstituting segregation while calling it “freedom”, you actually are a racist, and your claim that you would have marched with MLK is obviously a lie.

Rand’s philosophy is that the whites-only counters were a right.  He couldn’t have marched with MLK b/c that would have been infringing on the business owner’s right to serve whom they please.

He would have been a mealy-mouthed, cowardly racist in the 60s, too.

Comment #22: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  05/20  at  10:41 PM

Stop Making Sense - best workout video ever.

Comment #23: Nancy  on  05/20  at  10:41 PM

I think we *should* insist on judging people’s arguments on their rigor and implications, especially if they’re running for public office.  The debate club/legalism runs aground precisely because it doesn’t do this.  For example, Chris Matthews went on today about how Paul has a “constitutional” objection, and therefore is not a racist.  But the merits of that constitutional objection and its implications were never discussed.

This has been a running conversation over multiple threads over at Balloon-Juice today and someone (sorry, can’t remember who) pointed out something I hadn’t thought of before:  when people like Paul picture restaurants being allowed to discriminate against their customers, who does he picture doing that enforcing?  Is it going to be strictly Wild West time, with property owners shooting people at will?  Or does Paul expect the police—that’s right, the mean ol’ government—to enforce the restaurant’s prohibition against serving black people?

He hasn’t taken the government out of it at all, no matter what he claims.  All he’s done is change which side the government is taking and declared that property rights are more important than personal rights and the government should be allowed to use force to protect private citizens’ property rights over private citizens’ personal rights.

This is why I agree with you that there needs to be more rigor in looking at these arguments.  Dismissing Paul with, “Oh, he’s a racist” doesn’t really illuminate the fact that, despite his claims of being a libertarian, he’s all in favor of using the government to force people to do things, as long as it works out in his favor, or at least doesn’t inconvenience him.

Comment #24: Mnemosyne  on  05/20  at  11:28 PM

Digby got to the same place regarding libertarians, and put it better than I did, as usual.

Comment #25: Mnemosyne  on  05/20  at  11:33 PM

Mnemosyne:I’ve been following both threads, and it’s been brought up over here too. (I think Tyro brought it up first)

But it’s actually a huge step forward in the thinking about these things, to be honest. I’ve never heard it put that way before, but the more I think about it the more crucial that it is. Like it or not with this sort of thing, government as a representative of our society HAS to take a stand somewhere. Either we support it via propping up public establishments as private property, or we don’t. There’s no neutrality here. It’s simply not possible or realistic.

But what do people like Rand ever care about realism? They don’t live in the real world. They live in the debate hall, in the theoretical. I don’t know if he’s actually racist or not. What I do know, is that he’s an arrogant entitled spoiled brat. And that’s all I need to know.

Comment #26: Karmakin  on  05/20  at  11:37 PM

<OT> The best high school debaters I know excel at making insightful arguments about real-world effects of policies and political philosophies. Don’t hate on them. I recognize the kind of ‘abstract’ debate you’re critiquing here, but I could give you the names of a bevvy of 15 year olds who could wipe the intellectual floor with most libertarians, and they clean up at debate tournaments. I get the point you’re trying to make, but it’s a little irritating to have an activity that turns out so many kids who do have a good grasp of real-world implications and sound critical thinking skills get trashed on all the time.
</OT>

Comment #27: jalmondale  on  05/21  at  12:15 AM

@27:  I think you’re right—it’s less a high school debate and more the kind of conversation you have in your dorm room at 3 am after you get back from the bar.

Comment #28: Mnemosyne  on  05/21  at  12:43 AM

Balloon Juice has it better than me. I think I was bothered by the rush to argue that Paul isn’t racist. He probably is, but it’s true that his heart matters less than his ideas. Nonetheless, people respond as voters to the heart, and Paul-esque libertarians are glib racists, and that matters.

Comment #29: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/21  at  12:50 AM

<OT> The best high school debaters I know excel at making insightful arguments about real-world effects of policies and political philosophies. Don’t hate on them. I recognize the kind of ‘abstract’ debate you’re critiquing here, but I could give you the names of a bevvy of 15 year olds who could wipe the intellectual floor with most libertarians, and they clean up at debate tournaments. I get the point you’re trying to make, but it’s a little irritating to have an activity that turns out so many kids who do have a good grasp of real-world implications and sound critical thinking skills get trashed on all the time.
</OT>

I agree that comparing libertarians with high school debate nerds is insulting to the latter group as well as dubious.

IME, they are more comparable to enchanted cultists who unquestioningly believe in the magic of the free market’s “invisible hand”, even when confronted with the plenty of real-life evidence to the contrary. 

Had one such cultist get quite irate with me when asked in an irc chat discussion about how “comparative advantage” would work when a nation is at war, surrounded, and has never had/lost the means to produce strategic defense materials and basic supplies such as food and later parried his arguments by citing historical events where it failed such as the Confederacy during the Civil War, Imperial Germany during the latter stages of WWI, and Imperial Japan during the last year of WWII. 

Unfortunately, they tend to be prevalent among the less secure STEM and social science majors who are obsessed with rational choice theory as the be-all and end-all answer to explain complex social phenomena (mainly econ and the weaker poli-sci students).  This BS was one reason some poli-sci grad student friends….especially the progressive oriented ones have become so fed up with their field. 

Most also tend to be poor students of history either through lack of serious study and/or the tendency to cherry-pick what they remembered.  The extreme handful of libertarian history grad-students/historians I’ve encountered overwhelmingly tended to focus on US and British history with elite political, elite economic, and military history being three favorite sub-specializations….and they tend to be a minority even in those areas.

Comment #30: exholt  on  05/21  at  01:06 AM

This is going to sound incredibly naive, because I know white men are supposed to own everything and Caren hit it perfectly at #8. However, even knowing damn near all white male Right Wingers are disingenuous nutjobs, I cannot help but repeat one question in my head in regards to Paul’s support of anti-choice policies: How the fuck is my uterus not my own private property? It’s my organ, in my body. Don’t I have the right to say who comes and goes?

Though I think I figured it out: I won’t allow any black babies in my womb. That should get me Paul’s support. :D

Comment #31: UltraMagnus  on  05/21  at  01:37 AM

Nonetheless, people respond as voters to the heart, and Paul-esque libertarians are glib racists, and that matters.

True, but since the Paulites are very invested in presenting themselves as rational actors who have come to their racist conclusions based on pure logic, I think it’s very much worth it to knock their BS down with logic and reveal them for what they really are.

Comment #32: Mnemosyne  on  05/21  at  01:39 AM

How the fuck is my uterus not my own private property?

It’s the principle of “he who pokes it, owns it.”  Besides, that fetus only has half of your DNA, so clearly <strike>your owner</strike> the donor of the other half should have equal say.

Comment #33: Mnemosyne  on  05/21  at  01:41 AM

“will abandon that principled libertarianism when it breaks in favor of reproductive rights. “

If you were fair, you would note that a pro-life libertarian probably believes that the fetus is a human being with its own rights, and those must be weighed against the rights of the mother.  You can disagree with the point where a fetus becomes a human being, but don’t claim that those libertarians aren’t principled.

Comment #34: anoNY  on  05/21  at  08:35 AM

UltraMagnus, you do realise that everything is property except White Men? That is the whole libertarian ideal wrapped up in one handy pocket sized insight: everything can be reduced to property law except the desires, wellbeing and interests of the rich white guys pushing this crock of bull.

Your uterus isn’t property; you are.

Comment #35: MarinaS  on  05/21  at  08:35 AM

#29

Balloon Juice has it better than me. I think I was bothered by the rush to argue that Paul isn’t racist. He probably is, but it’s true that his heart matters less than his ideas. Nonetheless, people respond as voters to the heart, and Paul-esque libertarians are glib racists, and that matters.

Thoughts On Debating Libertarians

Amanda, all, I agree that on some level Paul’s racism is important to highlight, but I also agree that his racism is not always the best angle of attack, for reasons that this guy describes well: “How to Tell People they Sound Racist” (by video blogger “ill doctrine”/“Jay Smooth”). Bottom line, it is too personal, and too easy for them to make it into a hissy fit.

I have a pretty decent idea how middle-class libertarians think seeing as I used to be one:
1. I’m so special
2. These laws will protect me from reality
3. We’re the elect

Libertarians have this sort of air of unreality about them. This air of unreality is kept up through legalese. Picture it like a magic shield of fantasy which they use to ward off the less palatable aspects of their existence as humans on this Earth.

Now, we all have this same magic shield and we all use it for psychic self-defense. What is a little different about libertarians is that, because they are farther away from reality, I think they have to use it more. And what they are protecting is a little different, they not only have to protect the usual things, they have to protect their specialness. Their specialness gives them that certain pep in their step.

Finally they consider themselves part of the elect, in a calvinist sense (or close to it). This is the part where they talk about the parasites (who, of course, are probably black in their minds) sucking on the teat of the welfare state, or sucking the lifeblood or whatever.

So with all that in mind, you can’t just go for the racism jugular because they love attention on themselves and it actually strengthens them when you focus on them as people. And the audience doesn’t understand, they just see arguing. That was sort of the whole point of libertarianism, to talk about how freakin’ special they are. And to make the invitation to all, come join us, be part of The Elect!

Now you could try to attack that idea, The Elect. Talk about how The Elect is a crap concept or whatever. If you can do it OK. I’m not smart enough to attack The Elect, but maybe some of the smarter folks here can do it, realistically.

What I would focus on in attacking them is the fantasy/reality axis. They have to have a shield of fantasy, their entire psychic existence would be impossible without that sheild and a very strong shield that protects their specialness from connection with others. Because lets face it this is a sleazy ass world. They have to protect themselves from their connections with everyone else, from the state that nurtured them, from the world that grants them basic existence. They have to be psychically protected to an unusual degree.

Any idiot can attack the legal shield of fantasy, but it will hurt you too, because you also have a fantasy shield that protects you from many things. But you can take it and they can’t. You have to look at all those shitty realities that granted you your basic existence, your life. Your connection to all the stupid others. The fact that most people are just mediocre. The reality that you are just not worth very much, in fact probably your entire lifestyle rests on being rather over-valued. If we had a “truly free market”, they would likely end up dead or a slave.

Or how about the reality that the most horrible state violence is what hacked out this little clearing in the woods in which they play their freedom games and we would be absolutely nowhere without state violence. That’s a pretty good one. And you have to emphasize how anything else is just horseshit. Once you’ve done this, you’ve reached through their shield and pointed out all the ways their frail selves are connected to the sleaziest shit and they need it to survive.

You have to remember though that it is not about them personally. Nothing is personal, they love personal shit. Nothnig is personal. You have to be impersonal about it. Inside their shield they still feel special. You have to attack specialness itself. No-one is special. Everyone is connected. And you make it very convincing to teh audience, kind of in a “yes, you say you are special but no-one is fooled” kind of way.

That’s how I would start, now how would the coup de grace be administered? That part I’m less sure of. Anyone have ideas? Or do you think this whole comment is bullshit, or what?

Comment #36: atheist  on  05/21  at  08:39 AM

“Weighed against the rights of the mother” is about right: she’s not a human being, she’s an incubator. As an incubator, her “rights” are a) to incubate and b) to, er, incubate. They’re principled alright, your libertarians. So principled that apprently you can’t even bring yourself to pay lip service to the fact that a zygote is something that exists inside of a woman. No, once the squirter has squirted, she’s automatically a mother and mothering is the scope and entirety of her rights, at which point forced labour becomes a matter of simple principled consistency. Nifty.

Comment #37: MarinaS  on  05/21  at  08:39 AM

But I’m bothered more by the way that some liberal pundits approach libertarian arguments as if we’re all in some debate club or in a court of law at worst, and this is a matter of everyone presenting arguments to be judged on their supposed rigor and the implications of which don’t fall on the person making the arguments.

Fuck yeah. See also all those internet smartasses who prefer to argue about legal principles with absolutely no reference to actually-existing conditions and institutions, and who get all butt-hurt when you point out shit like the existence of massive, entrenched institutions dedicated to the subjugation of certain classes of people, as if considering how those principles operate in reality is somehow a form of cheating.

Comment #38: Dunc  on  05/21  at  08:40 AM

If you were fair, you would note that a pro-life libertarian probably believes that the fetus is a human being with its own rights, and those<strike> must be weighed against the rights of the mother. </strike> trump the rights of the mother since the fetus might be a white male or the product of a white male.

Should the woman attempt to enforce “property rights” on her uterus, she should be treated like black protestors at a whites-only counter.  The police should be called in to forceably protect the possibly white and male fetus’s life.

Unless the white man who owns the uterus he poked and the homonculus he injected doesn’t want to be a father.  Then the woman should be forced to have an abortion to protect the white man’s from theft of his labor with child support.

There.  Fixed that for you.

I get the “don’t have the ‘what are you’ have the ‘what you said’ argument, but if you advocate racist policies that will result in racial inequality, how do you get a pass?  You are what you do.  You did something racist.  It’s now on you to prove you didn’t mean it by your future actions, and a “sorry to anyone who was offended” non-spology is not enough.
There.  Fixed that for you.

Comment #39: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  05/21  at  08:47 AM

““Weighed against the rights of the mother” is about right: she’s not a human being, she’s an incubator. As an incubator, her “rights” are a) to incubate and b) to, er, incubate. They’re principled alright, your libertarians. So principled that apprently you can’t even bring yourself to pay lip service to the fact that a zygote is something that exists inside of a woman. No, once the squirter has squirted, she’s automatically a mother and mothering is the scope and entirety of her rights, at which point forced labour becomes a matter of simple principled consistency. Nifty. “

What I meant was that, in the eyes of a pro-life libertarian, it is the rights of one person weighed against the rights of another.  That is all.

Comment #40: anoNY  on  05/21  at  08:58 AM

@caren

“You did something racist.”

I’m sure you support the rights of a racist to have free speech.  There, you did something racist too, at least by your definition.

Comment #41: anoNY  on  05/21  at  09:00 AM

Baby boy, are you actually old enough to realise that in conversation, people will actually judge you on what you actually say? And that in politics, people will judge you on what you do?

Or are you all about the tender fee-fees and being a real good person inside who never “means” to say anything hateful despite the hateful shit that fall out of your mouth all the time?

Cause he, at least an openly hateful bigot who owns their openly hateful bigotry would be someone to argue with. You - and the asshole you’re trying to defend - are just cowardly little boys who cry foul whenever you’re confronted with the unmistakeable meaning of your so-called ideology.

It’s crunch time - are you a proud bigot or a crow in brown shirt feathers?

Comment #42: MarinaS  on  05/21  at  09:03 AM

“It’s crunch time - are you a proud bigot or a crow in brown shirt feathers? “

I’m kind of assuming this was pointed at me.  The people on this website have assumed that if you support a policy, agnostic in itself, that may enable some racist to act in a racist manner, then you are yourself a racist.  I do not see it this way.  I further support my right and the right of all others to speak out against the racist and to refuse to do business with him.

Comment #43: anoNY  on  05/21  at  09:13 AM

“What I meant was that, in the eyes of a pro-life libertarian, it is the rights of one person weighed against the rights of another.”

There’s nothing “principled” about pretending that the “rights” of a not-yet-a-person-but-a-clump-of-cells should even be compared to the obvious rights of the obviously fully-human woman those cells parasitically occupy.  And to even dare to declare the “rights” of those cells outweigh the rights of the woman is vile and unprincipled.

You libertarian idiots claim to hold the individual supreme above all else, including society, yet when faced with an actual individual, the fact she contains a uterus eliminates the primacy of her individuality.

Consistency Fail.  Hypocrisy Win…

Comment #44: MikeEss  on  05/21  at  09:42 AM

The people on this website have assumed that if you support a policy, agnostic in itself, that may enable some racist to act in a racist manner, then you are yourself a racist.

You descibe your policy choice as “agnostic,” but actual, real racists who support whites only policies are going to have one very specific policy preference on
this matter, and just coincidentally, it will line up exactly the same way as your preference which you describe as “agnostic.”

I further support my right and the right of all others to speak out against the racist and to refuse to do business with him.

You also support the use of force paid for with taxpayer dollars to enforce the whites-only policies pf business. So on one side we have “peak out against” and on the other side we have “guns.” Which side do you think your “agnostic” policy favors?

Comment #45: Tyro  on  05/21  at  09:42 AM

The reason that Jay Smooth’s excellent video doesn’t really apply in this situation is he was talking about someone who said something openly prejudiced.  Paul said something that couldn’t be construed as a slip, something that’s not racist on its surface, but upon examination, can only be borne of racism. It’s a bit different.

I *fully* agree that his argument needs to be torn up logically, but in a way where the audience is forced to face the inescapable conclusion that folks like Paul and anonNY start with a racist/sexist conclusion and come up with a rationale for it—-they are racist/sexist, and libertarianism is how they get away with it. 

If the audience is permitted, and Dave and Matt allowed, to believe that Paul means well and is so not a racist, but instead a very principled man, they feel more free to vote for him.  And that is contrary to the aims of attacking Paul’s position.

Comment #46: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/21  at  09:46 AM

anonNY, you’ve made it abundantly clear that you’ve got a worldview where segregation is legal and forced birth is the law of the land, and you back-end your arguments to make it sound “rational” when of course what you are is racist/sexist.  And really egotistical, too!  It’s amazing how you don’t understand how stupid you sound to outsiders.

Comment #47: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/21  at  09:48 AM

@44

1.  All libertarians are not pro-life.

2.  You disagree with pro-life libertarians about when a fetus becomes a human being.  Fine.  That is a principle.  What is your view on when the “clump of cells” becomes a human being with rights?

3.  Society is made up of individuals, so holding the individual in such high esteem isn’t necessarily anti-society.

Comment #48: anoNY  on  05/21  at  09:48 AM

@45

So I am a racist by association.  Glad you cleared that up!

I support the use of force paid for by taxpayer dollars to enforce trespassing laws.  You can speak out against a racist without actually treading on his rights or property.

Comment #49: anoNY  on  05/21  at  09:50 AM

Also, anonNY, can you please stop insulting our intelligence?  We know and you know that if a business was openly segregated, you wouldn’t protest it and you’d probably patronize it, rationalizing that it’s their right.

Comment #50: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/21  at  09:50 AM

“anonNY, you’ve made it abundantly clear that you’ve got a worldview where segregation is legal and forced birth is the law of the land, and you back-end your arguments to make it sound “rational” when of course what you are is racist/sexist.  And really egotistical, too!  It’s amazing how you don’t understand how stupid you sound to outsiders. “

I understand that I sound stupid to you, but I believe that that is because you are wrongly assuming that I am racist.  Trust me, some arguments on this website sound just as stupid to me, but at least I am (mostly) polite about it.

Comment #51: anoNY  on  05/21  at  09:52 AM

I’m sad I missed this thread and the one before it—excellent posts, Amanda! Instead of being a desk-monkey, captive to the computer at work, I was out in the field getting information for a newsletter article. I was in Louisville, KY at a girl’s group home and school. All of the girls there were in the custody of the state as a result of severe sexual and physical abuse. Although that sounds really depressing, let me assure you that the home and school have wonderful energy, a caring and smart teaching and mental health support staff, and although its Catholic its also very Feminist.

The reason why I’m mentioning all this is: 1. its in Kentucky; 2. If Paul had his way, the “property rights” of parents would preclude the state from taking their daughters into custody for protection in the first place. There are many disgusting positions that Libertarians take, but their vision of liberty turns children into property—and you can fuck over property all you want. The fact that Libertarians are more interested in waxing theoretical about Free-Market utopias without regard for human realities MAKES THEM UNFIT FOR OFFICE FULL STOP! How exactly would the Free-Market protect girls from sexual abuse in their homes? It can’t, it won’t and that is one of the 100,000 reasons why we need a well-run, responsible government—even in the Commonwealth of Kentucky.

The race is going to be REALLY close. Conway was the most progressive Democratic candidate and Rand the most Conservative/Authoritarian Republican—this will be a race among the two radically different worldviews of modernity. The good news is that both Conway and Mongerido got more votes individually than Paul did, but KY Democrats are known to jump ship in national elections. I think Conway can win, but we have to keep the focus on Paul’s anti-modernity views. We need to press the fact that Paul represents a very irresponsible view of government and public life. Heck, his $2,000 Medicare deductible idea in of itself needs to be played again and again with the aging KY populace—they might like his racism, his sexism, his anti-environmentalism but they’ll hate his anti-elderly positions.

Comment #52: Thealogian  on  05/21  at  09:53 AM

So Rand Paul wants to restrict or outlaw abortion, and he supports the War on Drugs.  Someone remind me again how Libertarians are any different than Republicans?

Comment #53: bananacat  on  05/21  at  09:54 AM

How the fuck is my uterus not my own private property? It’s my organ, in my body. Don’t I have the right to say who comes and goes?

What I really hate is that our society is so eager to protect property rights but not rights to our own bodies.  Of course this applies to abortion, but it’s also pervasive in rape apoligism.  If I have sex with some guy, society thinks that he should have free access to body forever, or at least for awhile.  If a man rapes me an hour or a day after consensual sex, I’m pretty sure he’d get away with it.  But if I invite someone into my house and they come back uninvited an hour later or the next day, that would legally be considered trespassing.  Why the hell can’t we value bodies over real estate?

Comment #54: bananacat  on  05/21  at  10:05 AM

There are no agnostic policies.

Comment #55: BlackBloc  on  05/21  at  10:06 AM

Actually, I think a libertarian can think a fetus is a thinking person who walks and talks, and still to be consistent, they should support abortion. The fetus is trespassing. Property rights are paramount. Thus, any means necessary to stop a trespasser, as per your arguments earlier.

Unless you don’t think women are people. That much is clear.

Comment #56: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/21  at  10:08 AM

Also, you’re not racist by association. You’re racist because you support segregation enforced by the police. Please stop insulting our intelligence. Not everyone is as stupid as you.

Comment #57: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/21  at  10:10 AM

anONY,

Even if an embryo were a person, what would give it the right to someone else’s organs to survive?  So let’s see how this works in your world.  Actual, living people who need health care to live have no right to request it from other taxpayers.  Actual, living people who need blood transfusion cannot require that you supply them with the blood that they need.  But a potential person has the right to use someone else’s body?  In your world apparently giving money or blood is less onerous than lending out a uterus for 40 weeks.  Are you really so naive that you think pregnancy is less bad than giving blood?  Or is it that you value embryos more than human beings?  Or is that you’re just being disingenuous and you really care more about punishment than embryos?  By your reasoning blood, kidney, bone marrow, and lung donation should be mandatory, because we have to weigh the rights of the organ owners against the rights of the people who need those organs.

And if you care about embryos so much, why aren’t you pushing for research on how to transfer pregnancies, maybe even to men?  Would you be willing to host an embryo if you could?

Comment #58: bananacat  on  05/21  at  10:11 AM

“There are no agnostic policies. “

In that case, supporting free speech must be racist, since it would allow racist speech?

Comment #59: anoNY  on  05/21  at  10:12 AM

The people on this website have assumed that if you support a policy, agnostic in itself, that may enable some racist to act in a racist manner, then you are yourself a racist.  I do not see it this way.

And there we have a wonderful example of exactly what I was talking about @38: the ridiculous idea that we should consider policies in the legal equivalent of a frictionless vacuum, where they exist as pure Aristotelian Ideals, with no reference to the circumstances in which they actually operate. In other words, don’t be messing up my beautiful abstractions with your stupid natural history facts.

You disagree with pro-life libertarians about when a fetus becomes a human being.  Fine.  That is a principle.  What is your view on when the “clump of cells” becomes a human being with rights?

Suppose, for the sake of argument , we accept your proposition that a foetus is a human being with rights… As a “libertarian”, what is your view on when a human being (with rights) gets to utilise the organs of another human being (with rights) against their will to support their own life? Further, what is your view on whether the putative first human being gets to use the coercive power of the state to enforce that claim to the organs of the second?

Comment #60: Dunc  on  05/21  at  10:13 AM

See, anonNY, we take your beliefs by where you’re actually consistent and not by what you claim to believe that just so happens to be more socially palatable than the results of your beliefs.  You’ve made it abundantly clear that when white men of property claim the right to oppress, you support them.  Everyone else’s definition of “freedom” doesn’t count.  You’re incredibly consistent, which implies that libertarianism is wallpaper you slap over an ideology of “white men of property uber alles”.

Comment #61: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/21  at  10:16 AM

“Actually, I think a libertarian can think a fetus is a thinking person who walks and talks, and still to be consistent, they should support abortion. The fetus is trespassing. Property rights are paramount. Thus, any means necessary to stop a trespasser, as per your arguments earlier. “

But in the real world, you are not allowed to use “any means” to stop a trespasser.  If someone comes onto your property, you are not allowed to kill them (unless its in self-defense, but that requires some sort of aggression).  Saying that “property rights are paramount” doesn’t mean you can use any means necessary to defend that property.  I have not argued that you can kill trespassers, I argued that you can use legal methods to remove them.  As to the abortion debate here, I just wanted to point out that opposing views can be principled.  Thank you.

Comment #62: anoNY  on  05/21  at  10:21 AM

I support the use of force paid for by taxpayer dollars to enforce trespassing laws. 

So do I, but someone wanting to be served in a public place like everyone else isn’t actually trespassing, unless the law declares that he is. It is, in fact, the proprietor of the business who is causing the violation. You can’t invite someone into your house and then beat him to death. Nor can you open a store and then demand that the state shoot blacks who patronize it.

I really don’t want to “look into your heart” and try to figure out if you’re “really” racist on in inside. But like Amanda said, what you are demanding is the strict enforcement of certain power hierarchies which you demand should not be crossed in any way. Which is the exact same thing that racism is. At the end of the day, you want to sit in your chair, holding a beer, and say how tragic it is that some cultures might feel that whites and blacks should be separate, while you get angry and will rise to oppose any laws that would stop stores from bringing the force of law against those actually opposed to segregation. So who’s side are you on? You say you are opposed to segregation, but you would grasp hands with the segregationists to cheer on the majesty of the law as it righteously guns down those who would violate the sanctity of a segregated public place.

How about this, anoNY? Let’s say, I’m the police that your tax dollars pay for. Now, you’re all excited at the prospect of enforcing the law to assault and arrest and shoot blacks who patronize whites-only businesses, but when I’m called by a store-owner, I tell him that I, as the police, have no interest in his problems and aren’t going to arrest the law-abiding citizen in the store. Are you going to support arresting me?

Because that’s what this gets down to, actually: I’m not going to support one dollars of my taxes into supporting the racist or hierarchal fantasies of libertarian lunatics. And I’m going to come down really, really hard on any business owner or other libertarian crazy who takes the law into his own hands by assaulting or killing anyone he fantasizes his interfering with his “rights.”

You , on the other hand, want to spend my money to enforce your neo-feudalistic fantasies, and that’s why it’s not going to happen.

Comment #63: Tyro  on  05/21  at  10:22 AM

“:Also, you’re not racist by association. You’re racist because you support segregation enforced by the police. Please stop insulting our intelligence. Not everyone is as stupid as you.”

Please do not insult your readers’ intelligence by saying that I support segregation.  I do not.

Comment #64: anoNY  on  05/21  at  10:22 AM

Oh, and while I’m at it, you don’t know what “agnostic” means. The word you were looking for is “neutral”.

Comment #65: Dunc  on  05/21  at  10:22 AM

“Even if an embryo were a person, what would give it the right to someone else’s organs to survive? “

That is the other side of the debate from a libertarian perspective.  I think that both sides can be principled and can debate from those principles without resorting to accusations of a lack of principles.

“And if you care about embryos so much, why aren’t you pushing for research on how to transfer pregnancies, maybe even to men?  Would you be willing to host an embryo if you could? “

This is the money quote though, it’s a very interesting question.  Presumably someday we will have the technology to transfer sex organs (or create new ones).  I honestly don’t know what I would do.

Comment #66: anoNY  on  05/21  at  10:26 AM

But in the real world, you are not allowed to use “any means” to stop a trespasser.

But we’re not talking about the real world.  We’re talking about libertarians being consistent in what they think are someone’s rights.  You made it clear that a person has a right to use police violence to stop someone from standing on their lawn.  Surely we have the right to use violence against a person setting up camp in our body? 

Look, face it.  You’re incredibly consistent in believing white men of property have rights and no one else does.  Own it, go home and think about it, and stop embarrassing yourself here.  It’s beginning to make me feel like a bad person, picking on someone so incapable of handling grown up politics.

Please do not insult your readers’ intelligence by saying that I support segregation.  I do not.

Double speak won’t work.  You said a) someone has a right to ban black people from a business and b) that they have the right to use state violence to enforce it.

Comment #67: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/21  at  10:27 AM

, I argued that you can use legal methods to remove them.

By calling “the police.” The police use my money and carry guns to enforce their laws. Now, it just so happens that the laws say what the police can and cannot do, and we make the laws. And if we don’t want the laws to serve on behalf of enforcing a segregated, racist society, than that’s what we do. And who’s going to oppose us? The people who love the idea of being to enforce a racist, segregated society.

This was an argument that we had almost 50 years ago, and the segregationists lost, and lost badly.

There was actually a nice gentlemen’s agreement made with all of this: the segregationists weren’t hanged. They weren’t tarred-and-feathered and driven out of town. Everyone just conveniently forgot what they believed and went about their daily business as usual. The trade was that the segregationists had to give up trying to re-fight the past. And that is the agreement that you and Rand Paul have violated. The south founded an entire society and culture defined by segregation. And that culture of segregation had to be destroyed by force of law. And 50 years later, running around claiming that this shouldn’t have happened and that it was a violation of your “property rights” is simply attacking the very foundations of modern American society. That’s why your claims are so completely offensive: because it’s not in the realm of theoretical debates of property rights, it’s in the realm of stuff that actually happened.

Comment #68: Tyro  on  05/21  at  10:28 AM

“You’ve made it abundantly clear that when white men of property claim the right to oppress, you support them.  Everyone else’s definition of “freedom” doesn’t count.  You’re incredibly consistent, which implies that libertarianism is wallpaper you slap over an ideology of “white men of property uber alles”. “

Except that I do not limit the rights to white men only.  I agree that we have differing definitions of freedom, though.

Comment #69: anoNY  on  05/21  at  10:31 AM

“Oh, and while I’m at it, you don’t know what “agnostic” means. The word you were looking for is “neutral”. “

Well, then replace my use of “agnostic” with “neutral.”  At least you got my point.

Comment #70: anoNY  on  05/21  at  10:33 AM

Please do not insult your readers’ intelligence by saying that I support segregation.

But you do. The segregationists want a legal system that will allow them to enforce their systems and want the law to back them up. When faced with the choice between two legal regimes, you want the laws passed in such a way that support the interests of the segregationists. You want the police to arrest people ordering coffee at a diner table. You want the jailers to lock them up. You want prosecutors to charge them, and judges to preside over their trials.  In short, you want a bunch of segregationists to be able to use taxpayer dollars to create the sort of segregationist society that you claim to abhor.  You’d cheer on the segregationist business owner and condemn the police officer that berates the store owner for refusing the serve black people.

I agree that we have differing definitions of freedom, though.

Yes, freedom to you is the ability to tell other people what to do simply because you have control over property and commerce. It’s a funny definition of “freedom” when “freedom” results in the mass arrest and prosecution of law abiding citizens just looking to buy a cup of coffee from a store. Or when “freedom” means that a worker can’t leave his job or ends up in a position of wage-slavery to his employer who wants to keep him there.

Comment #71: Tyro  on  05/21  at  10:35 AM

Even if it were scientifically possible to transfer embryos, it’s not an argument we as feminists should be comfortable with and trying to play Gotcha with. There is a whole host of bodily integrity issues that spring up from it.

Comment #72: Mighty Ponygirl  on  05/21  at  10:38 AM

“So do I, but someone wanting to be served in a public place like everyone else isn’t actually trespassing, unless the law declares that he is. “

And if the property owner throws him out and he doesn’t leave, the law says he is trespassing.

“It is, in fact, the proprietor of the business who is causing the violation. You can’t invite someone into your house and then beat him to death. Nor can you open a store and then demand that the state shoot blacks who patronize it. “

And if the property owner does not invite certain people in.

“How about this, anoNY? Let’s say, I’m the police that your tax dollars pay for. Now, you’re all excited at the prospect of enforcing the law to assault and arrest and shoot blacks who patronize whites-only businesses, but when I’m called by a store-owner, I tell him that I, as the police, have no interest in his problems and aren’t going to arrest the law-abiding citizen in the store. Are you going to support arresting me? “

It would be a dereliction of duty to refuse to deal with a trespasser, just as it is today.

“And I’m going to come down really, really hard on any business owner or other libertarian crazy who takes the law into his own hands by assaulting or killing anyone he fantasizes his interfering with his “rights.” “

I agree with coming down on people who would take the law into their own hands.  However, I think that in some jurisdictions today the store owner has the legal right to remove people from his property (or detain them pending police).  I can’t point to any specific laws though.

Comment #73: anoNY  on  05/21  at  10:38 AM

“You said a) someone has a right to ban black people from a business and b) that they have the right to use state violence to enforce it. “

But this is what I keep talking about in regards to free speech.  You support the rights of racists to speak their mind, and you support the use of state power to protect that right.  This does not mean that you agree with what the racists are saying!

Comment #74: anoNY  on  05/21  at  10:42 AM

“You’d cheer on the segregationist business owner and condemn the police officer that berates the store owner for refusing the serve black people.”

You would not berate a police officer that treated people differently based upon their beliefs?  I certainly would.  The police should enforce the law evenhandedly.

“When faced with the choice between two legal regimes, you want the laws passed in such a way that support the interests of the segregationists.”

I see it as supporting the rights of property owners to run their business as they see fit.  The current regime forces a business owner to engage commercially with everyone equally, even if he doesn’t want to.

Comment #75: anoNY  on  05/21  at  10:52 AM

#46

The reason that Jay Smooth’s excellent video doesn’t really apply in this situation is he was talking about someone who said something openly prejudiced.  Paul said something that couldn’t be construed as a slip, something that’s not racist on its surface, but upon examination, can only be borne of racism. It’s a bit different.

...

If the audience is permitted, and Dave and Matt allowed, to believe that Paul means well and is so not a racist, but instead a very principled man, they feel more free to vote for him.  And that is contrary to the aims of attacking Paul’s position.

Thanks. Maybe my POV is a little skewed, maybe I don’t yet have the full story on racism in this nation. Useful to learn.

Comment #76: atheist  on  05/21  at  10:56 AM

It presumes that arguments and beliefs don’t have real impact, as if this is all just a parlor game.

“Let us withdraw into the drawing room and discuss over tea and biscuits the ways in which we can monumentally screw over your life. I say, why are you being so uncouth all of a sudden?!”

Comment #77: Princess Rot  on  05/21  at  11:04 AM

“I see it as supporting the rights of property owners to run their business as they see fit.  The current regime forces a business owner to engage commercially with everyone equally, even if he doesn’t want to.”

Your perspective is not a replacement for objective reality. Reality: the segregated South was institutional and social. Libertarian Philosophy offers no real-world solution to the problems of segregation. A responsible and well-run government must find solutions to these kinds of problems. Libertarians do not believe in a responsible, well-run government because their system of belief was sparked by opposition to modernity and the social justice movements of the mid-late 20th Century. Your origins cannot be debated away, your fantasies cannot replace reality and your philosophy makes you and every other Libertarian unfit for office. anonNy, I understand that this is very upsetting to you—to be confronted not just on the content of your specific arguments, but the context they arose from and the consequences the implementation of your ideas in place in reality would have. Liberarians love semantics—it is their manna. But I am (and many here) are concerned with reality, not fantasy.

Comment #78: Thealogian  on  05/21  at  11:08 AM

You know, it suddenly occurs to me that I can’t see why we’re entering into this frame of trying to reason with anoNY or explain to him why he’s a bigoted, racist, sexist authoritarian in language that he can understand.

We can all agree on the evidence of our own eyes - they guy’s a bigot - what difference does it make if he’s brought around to agree with us or not?

And I am honest to goodness curious, I’m not just asking from some superior DFTT high horse. I think it probably says something positive about the community that we’re still trying to get some sense through to him (well, not me so much, but Tyro and Amanda and a bunch of people), but I’m not sure what it is.

Comment #79: MarinaS  on  05/21  at  11:12 AM

“Libertarian Philosophy offers no real-world solution to the problems of segregation. A responsible and well-run government must find solutions to these kinds of problems. “

I think that libertarian philosophy doesn’t purport to offer a “solution” to the problems of private racism.  It rather notes that there is no such thing as a “solution”, but there are only trade-offs.  The current law is a trade-off between the rights of the store owner and the civil rights of the customer.  However, I support the parts of the civil rights act that apply to government discrimination, so I guess I could say that libertarianism does offer a “solution” to that particular problem.

I don’t really think “origins” comes into it.  I’m sure that some big-government ideas have come from less-than-sparkling pasts, but I don’t press on this because it doesn’t matter.  A good idea is a good idea regardless of where it came from.

Comment #80: anoNY  on  05/21  at  11:17 AM

But this is what I keep talking about in regards to free speech.  You support the rights of racists to speak their mind, and you support the use of state power to protect that right.  This does not mean that you agree with what the racists are saying!

There is a very significant difference between a positive liberty such as the right to free speech, and a negative liberty such as the right not to be discriminated against. One protects an individuals right to do certain things, the other protects an individuals right not to have things done to them. Racist speech is not necessarily an infringement of anybody else’s rights (provided it’s not threatening in a legally-actionable sense). As the old saw goes, your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins.

Comment #81: Dunc  on  05/21  at  11:20 AM

One of the things that shows what hypocritical jerkwads most libertarians are is the remedies they propose for different classes of wrong. If a person or a company, as part of their business, produces unsafe products or dumps dangerous pollutants into the air, water or ground, the supposed remedy is for the injured parties to sue. But if someone you don’t want comes to patronize your place of business, you get to call the police. How about we equalize the remedies? If a black person comes to a racist’s lunch counter, the racist gets to call a lawyer, file suit in federal court alleging damages in excess of $25,000, post a bond for the black person’s potential legal costs, and then file for a temporary injunction barring the black person from staying at the lunch counter. If they can do this all in the 30 minutes it takes to serve a typical lunch, the court won’t dismiss the request as moot.

Any libertarian who thinks that remedy is inadequate has shown their stripes.

Comment #82: paul  on  05/21  at  11:23 AM

*sigh*.

Go do some reading on the subject anon then get back to us when you’re informed. By enforcing trespassing laws in regards to public-private property based on race, you are in effect promoting government discrimination. Full stop.

The ONLY way to be neutral is to pull back all property protections for such public-private establishments. That is, if someone is “trespassing”, and the cops are called, the owner is told to deal with it himself. But that’s not really realistic, is it.

And speech is not the same as actions. We are not talking about speech, or freedom of beliefs. We’re talking about honest to goodness actions here. That is, using force to remove someone from a public-private establishment for no good reason. You can be a racist all you want. But you can’t act on those beliefs. And that’s a good thing.

Comment #83: Karmakin  on  05/21  at  11:26 AM

Paul:Very good point.

Or maybe we can reverse it and have it so we can call the cops if someone is polluting, and have them dragged off to jail.

Comment #84: Karmakin  on  05/21  at  11:29 AM

I think that libertarian philosophy doesn’t purport to offer a “solution” to the problems of private racism.

Which of course is why it’s the favored philosophy of those who support racism.

Comment #85: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/21  at  11:38 AM

Karmarkin:

Alas, a court in massachusetts has just held that if a company arranges matters so that a bad act occurs without any of the company’s employees being accused of a crime, then you can’t charge the company itself. So if a company just cuts safety staff enough and screws up its internal lines of communications sufficiently (without provable intent, of course) it can kill an arbitrary number of people with negligible recourse).

Comment #86: paul  on  05/21  at  11:38 AM

But this is what I keep talking about in regards to free speech.  You support the rights of racists to speak their mind, and you support the use of state power to protect that right.

Yes, I suppose if someone is very, very, very, very stupid—-and all signs point to yes with you—-then having someone say something nasty to you is the same as having someone shoot you dead.

Comment #87: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/21  at  11:39 AM

Except that I do not limit the rights to white men only.

It’s true.  If a woman or person of color could transform into a white man of property, you would defend them vigorously.  Maybe.  I’m skeptical of your commitment to the rights of FTM transsexuals, even if they are white and rich.  But I’ll believe you consider the latter qualities that trump.

Comment #88: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/21  at  11:41 AM

“There is a very significant difference between a positive liberty such as the right to free speech, and a negative liberty such as the right not to be discriminated against. “

You have this backwards.  The right of free speech is actually a negative right, you have the right to not have your speech suppressed.  It requires nothing of other people, they need not listen.  No one *must* give you a place to speak. Positive rights require others to act, not so in the case of free speech.

Your characterization of the so-called “right” against discrimination is also wrong.  You state that “the other protects an individuals right not to have things done to them.”  But nothing is being done to anyone in private discrimination.  Shop owner refuses to serve someone, but doesn’t require them to do anything positive.  The right you speak of, if an actual right, would be a positive one, it forces the shop owner to act to satisfy the right.

Comment #89: anoNY  on  05/21  at  11:44 AM

We can all agree on the evidence of our own eyes - they guy’s a bigot - what difference does it make if he’s brought around to agree with us or not?

It’s definitely a rabbit hole idea.  The strategy of bigots now is to define bigoted actions as not, so that they can say they’re not bigoted.  So, when someone like anonNY supports shooting protesters having a sit-in at a segregated lunch counter, he can say that shooting protesters having an anti-racism protest isn’t racist, and therefore supporters of it aren’t racist.  Which is why I pointed out that a libertarian defense of slavery would be easy-peasy.  All you have to do is redefine the terms, and then act offended when someone suggests that just because you call a person property doesn’t make it so.

Comment #90: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/21  at  11:45 AM

God, anonNY, stop digging.  It’s getting tedious. I’m feeling like I need to enforce my rights as a property owner and boot your ass. Though I suppose that makes me an anti-stupid bigot.

Comment #91: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/21  at  11:46 AM

Ah anoNY is still around and he’s a perfect example of what Amanda was talking about. He wants to argue in the abstract and ignores history.

After the Civil War, federal laws were passed to help the freed slaves and give them rights, including nondiscrimination laws. The Supreme Court, following anoNY’s principles, declared them unconstitutional. Almost immediately, there was large scale segregation in the US enforced by the local police and the social society (without the federal government’s help, the blacks and supporters of their rights did not have enough power to do anything). It lasted for almost 100 years ... until the federal government got involved again.

This is what actually happened anoNY, so if you support the decision (and your reasoning says you do) then you implicitly support the outcome.

We’re not debating theory here anoNY, we’re debating things that have had a terrible impact in real society.

Comment #92: JohnL  on  05/21  at  11:46 AM

Though I suppose that I must balance the desire to have a living illustration of libertarian stupidity against my annoyance at anonNY’s overinflated ego that drives him to think that everyone’s pleasure at proving him wrong is simply the result of our inability to not pay attention to him.  Illustration of libertarian stupidity is good, especially when it’s coupled with such a strong demonstration of the overinflated ego.

Comment #93: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/21  at  11:48 AM

@82

These are two different activities.  In one, a company or individual is doing something illegal, in the other the shop owner is legally refraining from doing something.  Furthermore, the patron that the shop owner does not want to serve is doing something harmful to the shop owner if he refuses to leave.

If you want to argue that libertarians would make it legal to dump pollutants, then be my guest, but it says nothing about the current debate.

Comment #94: anoNY  on  05/21  at  11:50 AM

Good point, paul.  Again, the best way to predict where your average libertarian will fall on an issue is not based on their stated principles, but to ask, “Does this help the ability of rich white men to dominate others?”  If the answer is yes, a libertarian will support it, even if it runs against stated principles.

Comment #95: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/21  at  11:52 AM

As a Kentuckian, I need to study the stupidity of individuals like anonNY so that I can deflect their arguments for the coming election when challenged to do so while campaigning for Conway. So, I greatly appreciate the past two threads dealing with the “Problem of Paul.” So, Thank You Pandagonians!

Comment #96: Thealogian  on  05/21  at  11:53 AM

The current regime forces a business owner to engage commercially with everyone equally, even if he doesn’t want to.

This is an excellent illustration of the fearful, don’t-touch-my-toys mindset that drives libertarians like Paul and anonNY.

They are unable to comprehend the idea of some limitations on businesses; note how anonNY above cannot distinguish between requiring a business to serve black customers and requiring a business to serve everybody, no matter what. It’s a slippery slope to them that points straight down. They don’t and can’t understand that a business isn’t allowed to refuse to serve people because they’re black, but is allowed to refuse to serve people because they are disruptive, say, or because they aren’t appropriately dressed in conformity with the business’s dress-code requirements. It’s like listening to a teenager who’s been told “no, your curfew is midnight” go on a rant about tyranny and parental oppression and how it’s the most oppressive thing ever.

Comment #97: mythago  on  05/21  at  11:53 AM

“By enforcing trespassing laws in regards to public-private property based on race, you are in effect promoting government discrimination. Full stop. “

The controversy is somewhat about whether the shop is public-private or just private.  If a racist wants to throw someone out of his house “for no good reason” other than being black, then the police are obliged to do that even now.  We do not accuse the police of being racist here.

I agree that the current law makes the shop public-private, but the question is whether or not that should be the case.

Comment #98: anoNY  on  05/21  at  11:54 AM

“Which of course is why it’s the favored philosophy of those who support racism. “

Which of course is meaningless.  President Obama went to a church where the pastor was a nut job, but we do not ascribe the pastor’s beliefs to the President.  Guilt by association is not a valid argument.

Comment #99: anoNY  on  05/21  at  11:57 AM

I support the use of force paid for by taxpayer dollars to enforce trespassing laws.

Well, I happen to be racist against Zygote-Americans.  As a citizen, I require the use of force paid for by my taxpayer dollars to eject this trespassing Zygote-American from my uterus.

Comment #100: Denise  on  05/21  at  12:02 PM

They are unable to comprehend the idea of some limitations on businesses; note how anonNY above cannot distinguish between requiring a business to serve black customers and requiring a business to serve everybody, no matter what.

Well, as the guys at Sadly, No pointed out, this really points up to a deeply-held bona fide prejudice against black people.

  Shorter Rand Paul, Rachel Maddow Show
  Rand Paul on Civil, Federal and Business Rights

  * If you tell a restaurant that they must serve Negroes then you can tell them that they must also serve drug dealers with guns, although that pretty much amounts to the same thing.

These prejudices predate the rationalizations that are concocted.  As I noted before, it’s not a coincidence that libertarianism—-which gives an intellectual cast to racism—-rose just as it became less socially acceptable to simply be pro-segregation.

Comment #101: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/21  at  12:03 PM

“The Supreme Court, following anoNY’s principles, declared them unconstitutional.”

Um, Plessy v. Ferguson upheld a law, it did not strike it down.  Jim Crow was a legal regime, not a private one.  I am against such legal regimes, I do not support government discrimination.  I fail to see my principles in action in these cases.

Comment #102: anoNY  on  05/21  at  12:04 PM

My boyfriend pointed out something interesting last night.  Libertarians, when trying to play the “I’m not a racist” card, will say they don’t support segregation of public facilities.  But they don’t support the existence of public facilities, either.  So it’s like saying, “I’m against segregation of those things that I don’t think should exist!”  Which is to say they support a regime of complete segregation.

Comment #103: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/21  at  12:06 PM

And while you can claim this is just an abstract argument, in fact the libertarian argument is what was used to uphold segregation of education, and frankly still is.  If public schools are to be desegregated, suddenly you have swarms of newly baptized libertarians demanding that we don’t even have public schools.  Better dead than desegregated, in other words.

Comment #104: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/21  at  12:08 PM

“They are unable to comprehend the idea of some limitations on businesses; note how anonNY above cannot distinguish between requiring a business to serve black customers and requiring a business to serve everybody, no matter what.”

I get the distinction, but it doesn’t say anything about the current debate.  If the property owner decides to throw someone out, that person who doesn’t leave is trespassing and is thus a disruption.  Yes, a racist property owner might decide that all minorities are disruptions, and I wouldn’t try to use the government to stop him.

Comment #105: anoNY  on  05/21  at  12:08 PM

Of course, if the person trying to throw the trespassing fetus out is female, all bets are off.  Again, social hierarchies are a better predictor of anonNY’s beliefs than libertarian consistency.

Comment #106: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/21  at  12:10 PM

The controversy is somewhat about whether the shop is public-private or just private

True. If you want to cone up with a justification for segregating blacks, THEN you simply redefine public places of commerce as “private” in order to justify your beliefs.

Let me be clear: anyone who supports the creation of a legal regime used to enforce institutional racism is a racist. Police and government officials who support it are racists. Voters who support laws that allow it are racists. When you’re cheering on the cop and the storeowner beating a person in a public place for trying to buy something in a public store while being the wrong race, you’re a racist hiding behind the law under the guise of plausible deniability. No oneis trespassing, though thenbusiness owner is engaging in fraud and using force and violence to hurt people of the wrog race. And that is what libertarianism is all about: fraud and violence and the glorification of it by property owners.

Comment #107: Tyro  on  05/21  at  12:12 PM

I’m less interested in crafting an indictment of libertarians out of Paul’s nonsense; after all, they aren’t any threat to win anything outside of Colorado Springs dogcatcher as a political party. It’s more about illustrating what a useless pile of crap the Republican Party has become. The “accidents happen” line with BP (and whose logic could be applied to coal mines) should go much further in that respect than his grade-school-level hemming and hawing on the Civil Rights Act.

The Democratic party is a different kind of useless, but I guess we should continue to work on that as well by throwing some cash Conway’s way.

Comment #108: norbizness  on  05/21  at  12:15 PM

What’s fascinating to me about the rise of libertarianism in defense of segregation is this: The price paid to live in the hellhole that libertarians want is incredibly high.  They must really be hostile to the people they want to have the right to legally oppress in order to pay the price that is general lawlessness.  Prior to the civil rights era, white people didn’t have to choose between social order and racism, and it’s fascinating how many people like anonNY will choose the latter when it came down to having to choose.

Comment #109: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/21  at  12:16 PM

@103

But most libertarians support the existence of some form of common government, which they would not have operated in a discriminatory way.  Even if public facilities didn’t exist, there would still be government.

Comment #110: anoNY  on  05/21  at  12:16 PM

“Let me be clear: anyone who supports the creation of a legal regime used to enforce institutional racism is a racist.”

How does this accord with support of affirmative action and other racial preferences?  A public university can express a preference for someone of a certain race, and support of this policy is not racist under your definition?

Comment #111: anoNY  on  05/21  at  12:19 PM

Fair enough, norb, but I think the reason segregation captures people’s attention is that civil rights was the defining moment in the creation of the modern day Republican party that’s held hostage to “libertarians”.  The anti-environmental stuff wouldn’t have a hook without the racism, which is what I mean when I say about the choice between an clean, orderly society and a racist one that was created.  Prior to the 60s, you could both be a racist and think that BP should have to clean up their oil spill.  Now, in order to stand by pro-segregation beliefs, you have to buy into this libertarian nonsense, and all the environmental chaos that follows.

Comment #112: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/21  at  12:19 PM

What’s funny about libertarians trying to change the subject from their support of segregation to affirmative action is this—-they consistently fight organizations like the military that employ AA by choice, and not by mandate, because they value diversity.  Again, the consistent factor is putting the white man over everyone else.

Comment #113: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/21  at  12:22 PM

I won’t use the government to stop the racist property owner from not wanting blacks in his store. I won’t allow the government to participate in fulfilling the store owner’s desires nor would he be able to seek relief from the government if he chooses to take the law into his own hands, however, and I would be willing to use the force of government to prosecute someone for dishonestly purporting to run a place of commerce and business when in fact he is running a racially segregationist regime. And we do this because the institutional racism that certain parts of America were founded upon are unacceptable in our midst.

Let me be clear to you about something anoNY: you are never going to own property or a business of any importance. You are never going to control that much peoperty. You are going to be at the mercy of the law which is generous enough to protect you in order to ensure that you can have food, clothes, and shelter in the place of your choosing and where you can meet and eat with your friends without harassment. And we do this not because we like you personally but because the consequences to society if we don’t are unacceptable to us. No one is going to pay police to shoot law abiding coffee drinkers on behalf of a pro-segregation society.

But most libertarians support the existence of some form of government

A government that actively participates in the economic and social oppression of blacks on behalf of wealthy racists. That doesn’t sound like something I’m interested in or would be willing to pay for. At the end of the day, you’re willing to join hand in hand with segregationists to participate in the persecution of others on the basis of their race. This isn’t an abstract or hypothetical question: it’s what actually happened, and it’s what the conservative establishment led by William Buckley, actively supported.

Comment #114: Tyro  on  05/21  at  12:26 PM

Please do not insult your readers’ intelligence by saying that I support segregation.  I do not.

Don’t insult MY intelligence.

If you support policies that generate segregation, I judge you by your actions, not what you say.

Any scoundrel can lie through their teeth; any fool can say something they don’t think about properly. Either way, evil still happens.

Comment #115: gwangung  on  05/21  at  12:28 PM

History fail there anoNY. There were decisions previous to Plessy where the court ruled that laws by the federal government were unconstitutional. Plessy just showed the justices were also hypocrites (which is typical of libertarians in practice).

Also history fail in terms of segragation. There were laws about it, but the main force behind it were societal pressure (ever hear of the KKK) and people like you who argued that laws to end that societal segregation were wrong.

Comment #116: JohnL  on  05/21  at  12:29 PM

How does this accord with support of affirmative action and other racial preferences?

How about you answering the question first? It looks like your ideas don’t hold water in the real world.

Comment #117: gwangung  on  05/21  at  12:31 PM

I completely understand, Amanda, but what’s important to me is how to phrase it (Conway’s already done it better, as per a statement I read at Lawyers Guns and Money) so that even the people receptive to segregationist dog-whistles are made uncomfortable with his corporations uber alles philosophy. You are talking about a mining state who receives a lot in federal money compared to what they put in, so introducing and making prominent a populist, anti-boss strain is going to be more effective in getting the non-crazy person elected (that and contributing money to Conway, which I plan to do). Debating with an individual glibertarian over the space of several threads may be cathartic, but hardly necessary to the task.

Comment #118: norbizness  on  05/21  at  12:40 PM

People may claim that their support for a specific legal regime is “principled,” but when such a legal regime consistently leads to an unacceptable/immoral outcome, your “principled” support is useful idiocy at best and actual malice at worst.

Comment #119: Tyro  on  05/21  at  12:45 PM

gwangung—the problem of course is that people like Rand and anoNY have bought into the fallacy that racism as a problem has been “fixed.” They truly believe that because most people have a black friend or two that we can’t possibly Go Back To The Way Things Were because we’ve had enough years of the CRA to fix the systemic problems of institutionalized racism, and that things wouldn’t revert back to the way they were because public opinion is now so firmly anti-racism that we should be able to take off the safeties.

The problem with the libertarian’s obsession with “taking off the safeties” is that of course things wouldn’t snap back overnight. We didn’t have an economic crash immediately after banks were deregulated, we didn’t have massive offshore oil rig catastrophies immediately after the energy industry was deregulated, and we wouldn’t have a return to Jim Crow immediately after the CRA is repealed.

What would happen, of course, is that the dormant, less obvious racist policies that have survived since the CRA would grow. We’ve already seen that white homeowners have a “tollerance limit” to the number of black families living in their neighborhoods before the property values go down. A realtor may choose to preserve housing values by not showing neighborhoods to black families. Same will go for commercial establishments: A grocery store may worry that attracting “too many” black clientelle will start to drive off the white clientelle, and banks feel that blank clients are “riskier” to the institution. So they’ll begin to slowly push out their black customers, hell, it happens already and it’s supposed to be illegal. After enough years of this, of white people being coddled to feel that their DISCOMFORT around “those people” is acceptable, and being accommodated, then maybe you’ll start to see more overt signs of segregation: more white’s only policies at upscale clubs, separate washrooms at pools and other recreational facilities, maybe a segregated eating section at some restaurants. Yeah, liberals and progressives will be outraged and try to boycott, but if the tide is against us, and enough rich white people (who have the money and the power) support these businesses, then there’s not a lot we can do about it.

And of course, the libertarians will shrug this off because it’s all about individual property rights, and they aren’t racist (personally), they just had no idea that allowing people the ability to be racist fucks would result in people being racist fucks.

Comment #120: Mighty Ponygirl  on  05/21  at  12:45 PM

“hey consistently fight organizations like the military that employ AA by choice, and not by mandate, because they value diversity.”

Wait, I thought the poor and minorities fought all of our wars?

Comment #121: anoNY  on  05/21  at  01:07 PM

“If you support policies that generate segregation, I judge you by your actions, not what you say.”

The policy of allowing people to live where they wish resulted in “white flight” from inner cities, thereby generating segregation.  Do you support a policy of the government dictating where people may live?  Giving someone the freedom to control their lives does sometimes lead to them acting in a racist manner, but supporting the freedom is not in itself racist.

Comment #122: anoNY  on  05/21  at  01:11 PM

“and we wouldn’t have a return to Jim Crow immediately after the CRA is repealed. “

We wouldn’t have a return to jim crow at all, since the only part of the CRA we are talking about is the part dealing with private discrimination.

Comment #123: anoNY  on  05/21  at  01:16 PM

“The policy of allowing people to live where they wish resulted in “white flight” from inner cities, thereby generating segregation.”

No, actually, it was the road systems, sewer, schools systems and local governments that resulted in the possibility of “white flight” without regard for sprawl or suburban planning sans car. Without these infrastructures in place (which, hello, government made possible) “white flight” would not have been as dramatic. They occurred because powerful white people didn’t want to live next to brown and black people. Good city planning—good community planning—takes all of these into consideration, but the power of fear and paranoia at the notion of an integrated society freed up white folks to create their enclaves. Its not all freedom to be you and me—its public policy accommodating racism. Suburbs don’t just manifest out of nothing—they take a lot of investment by the powerful. Once again, anonNY, you seem to fail history and civics 101.

Comment #124: Thealogian  on  05/21  at  01:20 PM

True enough, norb.  Mostly I’m just aiming my arguments at other liberals so they know what they’re up against.  Which in turn may make it easier to see how all this works.  The problem with glib racists like Paul and anonNY is that their arguments are being exploited by corporatists who don’t really care about race one way or another, but do care very much about polluting without paying a penalty. 

anonNY, your failure is in understanding that liberals aren’t looking for rationalizations for our unacceptable prejudices, like you are.  We’re far more solutions-oriented.  The problem of white flight isn’t addressed by force not just because that’s unacceptable but also, in grown-up land (which you may join one day) unmanageable.  However, you can create policies that discourage white flight.  And I fully expect that libertarians like you will oppose those policies, because they work against the final desire product of segregation.

Comment #125: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/21  at  01:20 PM

Yeah, I’m sure the black folk who can’t get a house, can’t shop at the Thriftway, and can’t take their family to the local pool would feel so much better that the private discrimination piling up all around them at least wasn’t JIM CROW.

Tool.

Comment #126: Mighty Ponygirl  on  05/21  at  01:21 PM

Wait, I thought the poor and minorities fought all of our wars?

Goodness, are you so stupid you were unaware that the military has a ranking system?  Fascinating!  That is living in a bubble of privilege.  It’s tempting to pull up your IP address and see exactly what hoity suburb you’re posting from.

Comment #127: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/21  at  01:23 PM

“The problem of white flight isn’t addressed by force not just because that’s unacceptable but also, in grown-up land (which you may join one day) unmanageable. “

But why would that be unacceptable to you?  Don’t you realize all the segregation you could prevent?  That was tongue-in-cheek, though, because I would also find it an unacceptable trade, just as I find it unacceptable to trade the shop-owner’s property rights for a decrease in private discrimination.

Comment #128: anoNY  on  05/21  at  01:27 PM

Certainly.  I think where someone lives is different than what someone’s business is.  Also, I think it should be illegal to do what I believe you’d agree to, which is creating a neighborhood association of property owners that ban black people from their neighborhood.  And, like Tyro said, in a sense no one is absolutely forcing anyone to serve black people.  They just simply lose the protection of the state should they choose racism.

But it’s fascinating how you’ve childishly ignored that white flight was sponsored by the government, and that people like you who engage in it do so on the backs of taxpayers.  And you would absolutely throw a fit if we reworked policy to make white flight harder, not easier.  That’s all grown-up stuff, I understand, and hard to take.

Comment #129: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/21  at  01:30 PM

“Goodness, are you so stupid you were unaware that the military has a ranking system?  Fascinating!  That is living in a bubble of privilege.  It’s tempting to pull up your IP address and see exactly what hoity suburb you’re posting from. “

So your argument was that libertarians do not support the military’s use of AA.  I agree that I would not support that, they should hire and promote based on competence.  I’m not sure what the lack of mandate has to do with anything.

Comment #130: anoNY  on  05/21  at  01:31 PM

And believe me, there’s nothing funnier than the people who think they’re being frogmarched into integrated neighborhoods that freak out the second Atrios or someone like him suggests that the government start promoting urban density over sprawl.

Comment #131: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/21  at  01:33 PM

So, in other words, when an organization chooses something that undermines white privilege, you believe that their freedom of choice should be revoked.  Freedom is entirely dependent on who benefits, yet again.  Libertarianism is so shallow and predictable!  It’s almost like it’s not a rigorous ideology, but instead an excuse for racism.

Comment #132: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/21  at  01:35 PM

Also, if you believe “white flight” exists, then why are you skeptical of the idea that white people would band together to keep black people out of their neighborhoods?  Certainly seems like an easier way for you to get the results you, er, they want—-simply buy in places that advertise, through dog whistles or not, that they don’t sell to racial minorities.

Comment #133: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/21  at  01:40 PM

“But it’s fascinating how you’ve childishly ignored that white flight was sponsored by the government, and that people like you who engage in it do so on the backs of taxpayers. “

Now, you don’t know where I live or where I am from, but thanks for assuming! 


“And, like Tyro said, in a sense no one is absolutely forcing anyone to serve black people.  They just simply lose the protection of the state should they choose racism. “

Oh yeah, they can just shutter their business!  Real freedom!

Comment #134: anoNY  on  05/21  at  01:41 PM

The policy of allowing people to live where they wish resulted in “white flight” from inner cities

Actually, the policy of blockbusting sounds very much like the sort of thing a bunch of Randian libertarian real estate agents would engage in and defend on free speech and property rights grounds.

Comment #135: Tyro  on  05/21  at  01:41 PM

“So, in other words, when an organization chooses something that undermines white privilege, you believe that their freedom of choice should be revoked.”

You mean when a government organization like the military makes choices based on race?  I oppose that not due to white privilege, but rather due to the fact that I would like a competent military that doesn’t spend a lot of time thinking about how “diverse” it is.  I support a private organization’s use of racial preferences, but not a public one.  This is not incompatible with my stance on the private portion of the CRA.

Comment #136: anoNY  on  05/21  at  01:44 PM

But of course you do, anonNY.  You’ve made it clear that a business should enjoy the full right to not serve black customers.  This means that people can build suburbs and refuse to sell to black people, right?  Since you admit that white flight is a phenomenon, why would people refuse this much more efficient method of getting what you, er, they want?

And Tyro, absolutely.  In order to preserve the freedom to sell to whoever you like, black people will simply have to give up the freedom to live wherever they like.  anonNY claims he’s against telling people where they have to live, but that only applies to white people.  Shutting black people out of their right to buy in certain neighborhoods is just “freedom”.

Comment #137: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/21  at  01:45 PM

“Also, if you believe “white flight” exists, then why are you skeptical of the idea that white people would band together to keep black people out of their neighborhoods? “

I’m not skeptical of that, it probably has happened and does happen.  I would not engage in it.

Comment #138: anoNY  on  05/21  at  01:45 PM

You keep not answering, anonNY.  Should someone who owns a home be able to refuse to sell based on race?

Comment #139: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/21  at  01:46 PM

Oh hon, I can see your IP address.  That “I’d never do the white flight thing” doesn’t fly with me.

Comment #140: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/21  at  01:46 PM

“You keep not answering, anonNY.  Should someone who owns a home be able to refuse to sell based on race? “

It’s their property, right?  I can’t think of any objection to that. 

They probably can’t encumber it with a deed restriction that limits sales for eternity, though, since the subsequent owner could probably just change that.  Now, the real question is whether a HOA would be able to get deed restrictions like that.  Is there any reason to limit that without just saying that racism is wrong and it shouldn’t be allowed?  I hope there is, but I can’t think of any…

Comment #141: anoNY  on  05/21  at  01:52 PM

“Oh hon, I can see your IP address.  That “I’d never do the white flight thing” doesn’t fly with me. “

HAHA, you obviously don’t know this town then!

Comment #142: anoNY  on  05/21  at  01:53 PM

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Luckily our constitution weighs the inherent rights of a person over the rights of property.  In fact I don’t see any area in the constitution that enshrines the rights of property owners over the individual rights of a person.

Sadly, AnoNY is just an asshole who shields himself in his magic shield of superfluous ideology that defines the perimeters of what it is to be a racist bigot.  But because he defends the barricades and doesn’t admit that he defends the heat of racism and bigotry can feel he’s the noble warrior whose purity is unsullied by the lesser masses.

He’s Gandolf standing on the bridge screaming “You shall not pass!” while we gaze beyond him and view the wreckage his philosophy would unleash on the real world.

By armoring himself in the belief that words and ideas are identical to actions he makes himself the Captain of Industry he imagines himself to be.

Comment #143: cynickal  on  05/21  at  01:53 PM

““Oh hon, I can see your IP address.  That “I’d never do the white flight thing” doesn’t fly with me. “ “

But seriously though, would it surprise you to know that I left this state to move to NYC, and only moved back because I had to.  Would it also surprise you to know that I plan to move back to the City?

Comment #144: anoNY  on  05/21  at  01:54 PM

So, in other words, you fully support restricting black people from living wherever they’d like in order to preserve white people’s freedom to keep black people out of their neighborhood?  Freedom: The only kind that counts is a white man’s freedom to oppress.

Comment #145: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/21  at  01:59 PM

“Luckily our constitution weighs the inherent rights of a person over the rights of property.  ” 

You quote the protection of a right against unreasonable searches and seizures?  That does not apply to what we are talking about.  Furthermore, you would have the “inherent right of a person” subject to a “reasonableness” standard?

Everyone has individual rights, it’s just that they are not allowed to be on someone else’s property if that person wants them to leave.  You do not have the right to stand in my house without my permission, regardless of what the Constitution says about searches.

Comment #146: anoNY  on  05/21  at  02:01 PM

I would not engage in it

Of course not, because odds are you won’t have any wealth or property. What you depend on is to remain in the good graces of those who want your libertopia to become reality so that they can discriminate against others, lest they discriminate against you, too.

Comment #147: Tyro  on  05/21  at  02:02 PM

Yeah, cynic.  There’s a plodding consistency to libertarian arguments.  Whatever benefits the privileged over everyone else is “freedom” and should be preserved at all costs.  Whatever expands the actual rights and freedoms of everyone else is an assault on “freedom”.  The actual loss of freedom that women and racial minorities experience is irrelevant.

Comment #148: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/21  at  02:03 PM

“So, in other words, you fully support restricting black people from living wherever they’d like in order to preserve white people’s freedom to keep black people out of their neighborhood?  Freedom: The only kind that counts is a white man’s freedom to oppress. “

Anyone can live wherever they like, its just that they would have to get someone to sell them the land they want.  If a man refused to sell his house to me, I would not have the right to live there.  This is as it stands now.

Comment #149: anoNY  on  05/21  at  02:04 PM

“Whatever expands the actual rights and freedoms of everyone else is an assault on “freedom”.  “

This is where liberals and libertarians have their divide.  Liberals are unable to perceived that this expansion of “rights” involves a trade-off, a limitation on someone else’s rights.  I think that the right of a shop owner to conduct his business trumps any supposed right (of anyone) to demand that he conduct business with them.

Comment #150: anoNY  on  05/21  at  02:07 PM

So, not wherever they’d like.  Their freedom must give way to a white person’s freedom to keep black people out.  Are you sure you’re not just trying to make all libertarians sound like they basically use the word “freedom” as a euphemism for “white power”?

Comment #151: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/21  at  02:07 PM

Except, anonNY, you yourself admit that white people can limit the freedom of black people to live where they’d like by refusing to sell to them.  In the real world, freedom is defined by things like getting to go certain places, being allowed to live in certain places, being free to move about.

Comment #152: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/21  at  02:09 PM

Okay, I have a lot of work to do.  But it’s been fun playing “I’m not a racist, it just so happens that everything I believe in and support promotes racism.”

Comment #153: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/21  at  02:11 PM

“So, not wherever they’d like. “

You are asking me if anyone has the right to live wherever they like, and I am saying that they do, provided that they find someone to sell the property to them.  This applies across all races, sexes, orientations, etc.  I don’t understand what is so hard about this concept, but I do understand that it is not hard for you.  You are deliberately twisting this around.  And I am deliberately correcting you.

Comment #154: anoNY  on  05/21  at  02:15 PM

What libertarian social policy - to the extent that there is one - boils down to is, “it’s all your misfortune and none of my own.”  If white private business owners in a community collude, formally or informally, to exclude non-whites from their stores, etc. and this results in deleterious effects on the excluded people to the point where their control over their own lives is hindered, well, it’s just their bad luck to be born into the disempowered group.

Comment #155: Linnaeus  on  05/21  at  02:17 PM

“hey consistently fight organizations like the military that employ AA by choice, and not by mandate, because they value diversity.”
Wait, I thought the poor and minorities fought all of our wars?

Comment #121: anoNY

Wait!  Wait, we have two points on a plain, let’s see if he can connect the dots…

So your argument was that libertarians do not support the military’s use of AA.  I agree that I would not support that, they should hire and promote based on competence.  I’m not sure what the lack of mandate has to do with anything.

Comment #130: anoNY

OOOOHH! Complete and utter FAIL!

Comment #156: cynickal  on  05/21  at  02:21 PM

You quote the protection of a right against unreasonable searches and seizures?  That does not apply to what we are talking about.  Furthermore, you would have the “inherent right of a person” subject to a “reasonableness” standard?

Everyone has individual rights, it’s just that they are not allowed to be on someone else’s property if that person wants them to leave.  You do not have the right to stand in my house without my permission, regardless of what the Constitution says about searches.

Comment #146: anoNY

Reading comprehension fail.
Let me reduce it to the 5th grade reading level so you can understand.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons[...] against [...] seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing [...] the persons [...] to be seized.

Furthermore, you would have the “inherent right of a person” subject to a “reasonableness” standard?

Well, if I were having a converstaion with a reasonable person, yes.  But over the last two threads you’ve shown that the only reason you understand is force and greed.  You’re not reasonable, you’re a selfish asshole.

Everyone has individual rights, it’s just that they are not allowed to be on someone else’s property if that person wants them to leave.

What gives a person the right to declare ownership of property?  Define the limitations of property.  When does Ownership become 9/10th of the law?  What is to stop me from using froce to nulify your ownership and make it mine?  You’re on a slippery slope, my asshole friend, you have nothing really to stand on in defense of your defense of ownership but, “Because I said so.”

Comment #157: cynickal  on  05/21  at  02:42 PM

Liberals are unable to perceived that this expansion of “rights” involves a trade-off,

We both know there’s a tradeoff. You always (coincidentally!) make the tradeoff in favor of the segregationists over the blacks and the business owners over the employees. Making the tradeoff in favor of the libertopians has real consequences: namely, shooting workers and customers to enforce the vision of the libertopians.

The tradeoff to you is always in favor of those who control access to property and movement and against those who want to be treated with fairness and dignity. And you make this tradeoff in that direction every time, even though we know the consequences of this tradeoff. We don’t believe this to be a coincidence.

You also depend on having a police and legal infrastructure that believes in harming blacks wishing to engage in commerce and buy homes in favor of racist store owners and home sellers. And then you depend on racist voters and tax layers willing to pay for that enforcement. You say you would “speak out” against segregationist store owners, but you’d cheer on police officers who would neat, arrest, and shoot black customers on their behalf. And you’d congratulate prosecutors for convicting those blacks. So whose side are you on here? You’re on the side of property owners to use commerce to restrict individual freedom to shop in public places.

Comment #158: Tyro  on  05/21  at  02:44 PM

Oh man, this thread has been so entertaining and I’m learning a lot of new and fun arguments against my 20-something “libertarian” friend. And Amanda, I applaud you for calling out anoNY on his location after he tried to lie his way out of it.

He quickly devolved from “No, you don’t know where I live!” Amanda: Yeah, I do. to: “Well, you don’t know this town then! *frantically looks around for black people* maybe realized if Amanda could find his location she can also maybe look up population statistics (I don’t know just guessing) Then he starts back tracking without even being called on it: “Well, would it make you like me if I told you I had to move out to the lily white suburbs cause of… O_o. Well then I’M MOVING BACK TO THE CITY! So nah!

Oh man, I will be cracking up at that all day.

A realtor may choose to preserve housing values by not showing neighborhoods to black families. Same will go for commercial establishments: A grocery store may worry that attracting “too many” black clientelle will start to drive off the white clientelle, and banks feel that blank clients are “riskier” to the institution. So they’ll begin to slowly push out their black customers, hell, it happens already and it’s supposed to be illegal.

I saw this happen all through my childhood/teen years. My family, who is black but lower middle class, would go to the Mall of Memphis occassionally and originally the mall of Memphis was a great, popular, successful mall. When we first started going we were the few black families who could afford to go, or even would go because MoM was predominately white. But slowly but surely we would see more and more black people coming into the mall and eventually we started seeing more and more businesses with CLOSED/MOVING TO X LOCATION signs. After a time, the white community deserted the MoM as did the businesses to the point where there was no point in going because the shops you wanted to frequent weren’t there.

Low and behold, we found out there was a new mall! Far away from the MoM, near the Memphis suburbs. So we went there and found where all the white people were. It was the first time my parents had to explain to me the concept of “white flight” and even though it was a mall I got to see it in practice over a period of years. It happens and I have no doubt that if given half the chance it would happen again.

Comment #159: UltraMagnus  on  05/21  at  02:45 PM

In that case, supporting free speech must be racist, since it would allow racist speech?

You mistake me for a liberal. I do not support the rights of racists to spout off or do rallies without the threat of disruption by popular left-wing groups.

Go ARA! No Pasaran.

Comment #160: BlackBloc  on  05/21  at  03:27 PM

I suppose Rand Paul would also be opposed to the Americans With Disabilities Act, which forces private owners to make physical accommodations for those who have the darned misfortune to be born with a disability. So those folks would also be undeserving of freedom in the libertarian worldview - they would have to sacrifice their ability to get a job, enter a building, go to school, etc., in favor of the freedom of a property owner who didn’t want to spend $3000 on a ramp.

Comment #161: maurinsky  on  05/21  at  05:01 PM

maurinsky - Rand Paul has already explicitely critiqued the ADA. You don’t have to guess, he’s said it.

Comment #162: rivki  on  05/21  at  05:13 PM

A ramp shouldn’t cost $3K.  That’s criminal in itself.

We should make it our business to have the community help people build and remodel to be accessible - but at the same time we shouldn’t pick on businesses in old buildings or deny building of new stairs on hills because it would cost many times more to put a ramp.  There should be a balance, and some sort of collective help.

In that, I think the ADA failed, by pushing all the responsibility to courts and business owners.

Comment #163: Crissa  on  05/21  at  05:31 PM

The ADA only applies to business with more than 50 employees, Crissa. Please don’t spout off about things you don’t understand.

Comment #164: Thealogian  on  05/21  at  05:36 PM

anoNY, when a person decides to open a business, he* doesn’t just go downtown, rent a space, and hang a “Business Now Open!” sign; he must get a whole bunch of paperwork from the government (yeah, you hate this, but stay with me here).  Among that paperwork is a license to do business in that state, and in that license’s contract are the terms by which the business must be run. 

If a business owner is licensed for public accommodation (grocery, computer shop, coffee house, whatever) but then openly discriminates against a certain class of citizen, then he is in violation of the law because he is not fulfilling his side of the contract.  If he wants to open a private club, that’s another entirely different contract with an entirely different set of rules.

Don’t like it?  Change the licensing requirements for your state - oh, and be sure those changes don’t violate federal laws. Good luck with that.


[*started to do the s/he pronoun thing, but it was unwieldy, plus most libertarians - in my experience - are males, hence the male pronoun throughout]

Comment #165: NobleExperiments  on  05/21  at  05:40 PM

“anoNY, when a person decides to open a business, he* doesn’t just go downtown, rent a space, and hang a “Business Now Open!” sign; he must get a whole bunch of paperwork from the government (yeah, you hate this, but stay with me here).”

assNY, like all libertarians, wants anyone to be able to hang a shingle anywhere and sell, oh, let’s say dioxin-laced lemonade to children, flee before the deed backfires, and then do the same somewhere else, ad infinitum.  To limit this in any way is an unconscionable loss of Freedom™, and cannot be tolerated. 

(You might even take a shot at selling the suckers a huge and stultifyingly boring book about railroads, magic metal, moochers, and Great Men Who Make Long Speeches which lays out a juvenile, evil, and incoherent philosophy that claims to explain why boundless and unrepentant selfishness is the greatest quality any human being can possess.  I hear you can get away with doing that for decades before the toxic results cause a country to choke to death on it’s citizen’s own vomit…)

So a few kids get sick and/or die, or a few grandiosity-laden high school punks decide to make a career being political and economic assholes…what’s the big deal?

Fortunately, under the Bigger Asshole Law — a foundational principle of the universe — there is always a bigger asshole who will come along and do far worse things than you did, making you look relatively benign in comparison.

So I guess there’s hope for all libertarians, at least until the last one finds out he’s the biggest asshole of them all…

Comment #166: MikeEss  on  05/21  at  06:42 PM

So anoNY, explain to us, why exactly are property rights so damn important?
Or should I say, since we all know what you really mean, why is the right to discriminate so damn important?

Comment #167: quercus  on  05/21  at  06:52 PM

“Liberals are unable to perceived that this expansion of “rights” involves a trade-off, a limitation on someone else’s rights.”

Toby says “No, I’m disagreeing with you. That doesn’t mean I’m not listening to you or not understanding what you’re saying - I’m doing all three at the same time.”
AnoNY is no Josh, though.

Comment #168: colorlessblue  on  05/21  at  07:35 PM

Comment #164: Thealogian on 05/21 at 03:36 PMThe ADA only applies to business with more than 50 employees, Crissa. Please don’t spout off about things you don’t understand.

Spout off?  What does fifty employees have to do with anything I said?  I didn’t say ‘small businesses’ I said ‘businesses in old buildings’ and I said that we should, as a government and a group, pay for these accommodations.

Why the snark?  Sheesh.  The number of employees doesn’t have anything to do with the cost of accommodation, anyhow.  ADA as applied just penalizes older businesses to sell or expand; or public works in places generally poorly accessible do to terrain or historical design.

Comment #169: Crissa  on  05/21  at  09:09 PM

Why are you guys letting this jackass (anonNY) absorb your time & energy?

He’s either unable to grasp your arguments, or unwilling to think.  Either way, he’s an energy sump.

Cut your losses.

Comment #170: Eric_RoM  on  05/22  at  05:13 AM

“He’s either unable to grasp your arguments, or unwilling to think.  Either way, he’s an energy sump.”

Eric, sometimes it’s fun to poke the troll.  It’s been a shitty week (for me at least) and it’s great to see some pompous asshole get skewered…

Comment #171: MikeEss  on  05/22  at  11:01 AM
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