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Next entry: But what if George Soros goes Galt? Previous entry: ABC’s “What Would You Do” tackles tolerance of gay couple at NJ sports bar

This sounds like some rant I’d hear from a paranoid white person in El Paso

Well, actually it’s a lot more literate, but nonetheless, I don’t think Marty Peretz misses a single stereotype about Mexico or Mexicans, and all are cherished by Southwestern racists like it was their mother’s milk.

Well, I am extremely pessimistic about Mexican-American relations, not because the U.S. had done anything specifically wrong to our southern neighbor but because a (now not quite so) wealthy country has as its abutter a Latin society with all of its characteristic deficiencies:  congenital corruption, authoritarian government, anarchic politics, near-tropical work habits, stifling social mores, Catholic dogma with the usual unacknowledged compromises, an anarchic counter-culture and increasingly violent modes of conflict.  Then, there is the Mexican diaspora in America, hard-working and patriotic but mired in its untold numbers of illegals, about whom no one can talk with candor.

Via Lindsay.  It’s hard to pick out the most amusing/disturbing part of this rant, but I have a special affection for the bullshit at the end.  One thing that I’ve discovered whenever I venture west of the Pecos is that people talk about their loathing of immigrants (always presumed illegal) with surprising candor.  True, they rarely call them “patriotic”, except to wonder, Michelle Malkin-style, if their loyalty to their families back home means they are some sort of Fifth Column.  I’m unsure how Peretz manages to work in both stereotypes about how Mexicans are relentlessly hard-working with stereotypes about how they’re lazy and addicted to siestas, but the ways of blatant racists (and their ability to hold contradictory stereotypes in their heads) will always be a mystery.  But that, alas, is far from my favorite contradiction.  I far prefer stereotyping the Mexican government as unduly authoritarian, but also stereotyping all resistance to the government as unjustified—-in adjacent phrases, no less. 

I have zero doubt that writing this will get me accused by some obsessive wingnut blogger of “race-baiting”, and demands will be made to justify this thing that the government of Mexico did that’s offensive to liberal sensibilities.  But as long as we’re holding prisoners without charging them and extending them their full human rights, we’re in a definite glass house on the issue of authoritarian governments.  And I’m not even going to entertain a point by point comparison of Mexican culture to ours on the subject of religiosity when I read, right before this, a bunch of anti-choice religious wackos who get taken seriously by our media and government glory in the deaths of 14 people because they were family to an abortion provider.  In fact, I will say that I find it amusing that Peretz leans on the liberal value of religious freedom to justify his ugly racism, when I’d argue that the fact that the Mexican government covers abortion under its national health care plan shows that they beat our asses in separating religious dogma and government policy. 

But seriously?  He invoked the stereotype of laziness.  That really ends any credibility he or his arguments have.  Christ, what an asshole.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 08:59 AM • (96) Comments

Latin society with all of its characteristic deficiencies:  congenital corruption, authoritarian government, anarchic politics, near-tropical work habits, stifling social mores, Catholic dogma with the usual unacknowledged compromises, an anarchic counter-culture and increasingly violent modes of conflict.

Welcome to Massachusetts!  Well, maybe, Massachusetts 1975, but this still captures the essence of the place.  Rhode Island too.

Comment #1: Ms Kate  on  03/26  at  09:26 AM

Oh, and what have we done to Mexico?  Stolen their prime land in an illegal war, refused to take the appropriate steps to kill the demand for drugs in our country, exploited their labor in ways that destabilized their traditional societal structures, ...

Shall I continue?

Comment #2: Ms Kate  on  03/26  at  09:28 AM

What’s crazy is the characterization of Latin America as terribly authoritarian.  Anyone attracted to that line of thinking should keep this in mind:  http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=363&year=2008

The Americas, North and South, are among the most free regions in the world.  For me, this is a constant reminder that we are more similar than different, but I think just saying that makes me a dirty fucking hippy.

Comment #3: Reece  on  03/26  at  09:32 AM

“Well, I am extremely pessimistic about Mexican-American relations, not because the U.S. had done anything specifically wrong to our southern neighbor but because…”

It seems more reasonable to be pessimistic about Mexican-American relations because one of our whole two major parties have made hating Mexicans part of their platform.

Comment #4: preying mantis  on  03/26  at  09:41 AM

What’s crazy is the characterization of Latin America as terribly authoritarian.

It’s an old Cold War trope people who are still stuck in 1979 use.

The only authoritarian countries left in Latin America are Cuba, Venezuela, and Colomiba. The rest are free countries (if thoroughly corrupted by our drug war).

Of course there’s a simple way to end the corrupt. Fucking legalize drugs! The war isn’t working. We fought drugs and the drugs won.

Comment #5: Ben D.  on  03/26  at  09:56 AM

“And I’m not even going to entertain a point by point comparison of Mexican culture to ours on the subject of religiosity when I read, right before this, a bunch of anti-choice religious wackos who get taken seriously by our media and government glory in the deaths of 14 people because they were family to an abortion provider.  “

Wow!  I read the Feminste post and was blown away.

I live and work in the area where ‘Bud’ Feldcamp lives, and my daughter no doubt goes to school with some of his relatives.  After the crash an email was sent out to my place of work covering the basics of the story, because there are certainly other people I work with who knew and/or were related to the victims.  To imply that this tragedy is some sort of godly retribution is really vile.

I guess my inability to be that hateful will forever prevent me from being a “good” christian instead of an atheist…

Comment #6: MikeEss  on  03/26  at  10:12 AM

Yeah, I read the Feministe piece too and had to respond to it. That Gingi Edmonds is lying when she says she doesn’t want to turn this into a “spiritual ‘I Told you so’” moment—people like her live for that sort of shit.

Comment #7: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  03/26  at  10:17 AM

Went to the Alamo last year, on a lark. I live in Texas, and love Texas, despite our general wacky insanity down here. But I was annoyed and then disturbed by how much the Alamo exhibits completely downplayed the deliberate agression on the part of the American settlers in Texas to refuse to assimilate, convert, free their slaves, etc. - basically all the stuff that they had to promise to before they weer allowed to move here. No mention of the fact that several Americans moved to Texas expressly TO wrest Texas over to America.

No, the whole Alamo exhibit just made it sound like the Mexican army just rolled through one day, to pillage and burn.

As a student of history, this deeply bothers me. As an American, it troubles me. I’m just worried how much we pull a “America has never done anything wrong” when it comes to teaching our own history, especially when we STILL have the effects of that now, with people insisting that we round up all the Hispanics and toss them out of Texas….huh?

Comment #8: Essie Elephant  on  03/26  at  10:23 AM

Quick history question: who backed many of the most authoritarian governments in Central and South America (eg Chile, Argentina, El Salvador) during the ‘70s and 80s?

Second question: where does the term “Banana Republic” originate?

Comment #9: Dunc  on  03/26  at  10:24 AM

To imply that this tragedy is some sort of godly retribution is really vile.

Particularly given the situation that is currently developing in North Dakota.

What really annoys me is this: if God is all powerful, he must be just as idiotic as the wingnuts if His answer to an annoying problem is to smite, rather than to practice prevention (e.g. bring about the end of fertilized eggs of those who would become abortion doctors).

Comment #10: Ms Kate  on  03/26  at  10:29 AM

Ms Kate, we took all their land in that war you refer to: every inch of it, from California to Guatemala.  Then we decided we didn’t want to have it all (for myriad reasons, most of which involve Spain and Texas,) took some of it, and even paid money for it.  But still, to argue that the remaining lands of Mexico aren’t good is to ignore the fact that Mexico should still be a rich nation.  It has lots of minerals and good farmland and still (for a few more years, anyway, since it will soon become an importer rather than an exporter) has some oil.  That California farmland you are probably referring to is great for growing stuff (as long as the water lasts,) but Mexico is no slouch when it comes to such things.

And what are the “appropriate steps to kill the demand for drugs in our country”?  Longer sentences?  Bigger fines?  More police power to break into our lives and homes?  I don’t see any of our policies doing a damn thing to kill the demand for drugs.  People love drugs, get used to it.  What we need to do is not kill the demand, but look for ways to sate it.  Yes, I’m talking about legalizing the stuff.  What stopped the gun-running bootleggers, Eliot Ness or the end of Prohibition?  Do you honestly think (further)(insane)(up-)(re-)arming the Mexican government is going to stop the drugs from coming across the border?  Or are you advocating the death penalty for anyone caught with drugs?

Cocaine grows in the same conditions as gourmet coffee, but somehow there aren’t that many murders in Nogales, Mexico over the coffee trade.  The coffee gangs kill silently and keep their mass murder out of the headlines, apparently.  Ninja Yakuza are probably involved somehow.  Marijuana is sometimes called “weed” which is a counterfactual nickname since there’s no way any backyard grower or college student with a closet could successfully cultivate that tricky plant.  The United States government is doing us all a favor by keeping such frustration out of our country.  Why we don’t thank them is for future generations to decide.

As for “exploited their labor”, I don’t know where to begin.  While I deplore many of the living and working conditions, I hardly see the United States policy as something that forces anyone to come over our border to get a job.  The desperation of Mexicans to do field work for low pay is something that exists because of Mexico.  Mexico is poor for many reasons, but it too has a lot of landowners who don’t pay workers well.  It too has a government that hasn’t done enough for its poor.  The US didn’t make Mexico poor.  Mexico did it on its own.  The mere fact that immigrants* will walk through the Sonoran Desert in July to get to low-paying jobs in the US isn’t due to our exploitation.  It may be batshit insane that we don’t have a bus that picks them up and takes them to the fields, but it’s not exploitation.  There’s no government plan to exploit them on our part.  If anyone is exploiting, it’s the Mexican government that gets its unskilled citizens to send money into Mexican state-run banks and not have to worry about taking care of them at home.

*including Salvadorans and Guatemalans and others.

Comment #11: 3letterjon  on  03/26  at  10:34 AM

congenital corruption, authoritarian government, anarchic politics, near-tropical work habits, stifling social mores, Catholic dogma with the usual unacknowledged compromises, an anarchic counter-culture and increasingly violent modes of conflict.

Well, that’s Chicago politics for you.

Wait, he’s not talking about Irish-Americans?  I must have misinterpreted the “near-tropical work habits” as meaning drunk, b/c otherwise it fits.

The scapegoat is always thus.

Comment #12: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  03/26  at  10:35 AM

Christ what an asshole indeed. Not that he could come out and say “them spics is damn lazy” ... no, he had to make it all wordy and pseudo-scientific with his “near-tropical work habits”. That “near-tropical” bullshit comes from the good old days of overtly racist and pro-eugenics academia. There was a very popular theory according to which darker people were congenitally lazy because their climate wasn’t harsh enough to encourage them to work. Or something. Apparently this crap has yet to be debunked in some circles.

It makes me wonder if Marty Peretz believes that Africans have smaller skulls than Europeans, or that women are more stupid than men because they do, in fact, have smaller skulls, or that criminals have certain facial characteristics and cranial bumps. Or that the earth is flat and we can change mud to gold, for that matter. Christ on a popsicle stick, what an asshole.

Comment #13: CassieC  on  03/26  at  10:37 AM

Oh, it’s not just west o’ the Pecos.  When I used to work legal services in central Massachusetts there was the town of Southbridge.  Southbridge is not a bad place.  However, I did talk to an inordinate number of white clients there who thought that illegal Puerto Rican immigrants where taking all of the jobs.  What’s wrong with this?

(1) There are no jobs in Southbridge for anyone to take.

(2) Puerto Ricans are American citizens.  Ergo, they can’t be undocumented immigrants.

On a lighter note, at that same job we had a running argument over whether Puerto Ricans should be coded as US or Puerto Rican on the nationality tab in the demographic screen of our case management software.

Comment #14: Richard Goblin  on  03/26  at  10:37 AM

@3letterjon: “I hardly see the United States policy as something that forces anyone to come over our border to get a job”

Oreally? Where do we start on this one? Maybe NAFTA? Or the similar shit we did to the Mexican economy before NAFTA even started? This is actually pretty much the official goal of US policy in the area. But you wouldn’t want to know that, because that would involve being a little bit uncomfortable in your self righteousness, so please carry on.

Comment #15: CassieC  on  03/26  at  10:40 AM

It too has a government that hasn’t done enough for its poor.  The US didn’t make Mexico poor.  Mexico did it on its own.

Bullshit. The US (and before it, Spain) has a whole hell of a lot to do with why Mexico is poor.

Comment #16: Ben D.  on  03/26  at  10:43 AM

Right, and all those minerals and land wealth in Mexico were in amazing demand, compared to arable farmland, when we took Mexico and spat back the best parts.  And it didn’t serve our purposes to prop up and maintain those governments that didn’t take care of the people.

3letter, you funny.

Of course our explotation of the labor force in a way that breaks up communities and makes them vulnerable to drug trade, and our insistance on Just Say No rather than solid and sound and scientifically validated policies for drug addiction control have nothing to do with that bit, eh?

Apologists are so creative sometimes.

Comment #17: Ms Kate  on  03/26  at  10:48 AM

near-tropical work habits

WTF does this mean?  Wearing shorts at work?

Comment #18: ummeli  on  03/26  at  10:53 AM

Oh, and what have we done to Mexico?  Stolen their prime land in an illegal war, refused to take the appropriate steps to kill the demand for drugs in our country, exploited their labor in ways that destabilized their traditional societal structures, ...

To be fair, nation states were stealing land from each other back and forth for a long while.  Mexico had just revolted from Spain a few years before Texas revolted from Mexico.  And a few years after Texas won its independence, it joined the United States just in time to join the Confederacy.  So piling on the US for “stealing prime land” seems kinda silly when you consider the year-to-year social upheavals of the time.  Also, Santa Anna was a humongous dick and - frankly - had it coming to him.

As for “refusing to take appropriate steps to kill the demand for drugs”... are you fucking kidding me?  We’ve got a Supreme Court case coming up about a girl who was strip searched at the age of 13 over prescription IB Profin.  We’ve done everything short of summary execution by firing squad in our War on (Some) Drugs.  You can get mad at the United States for having a shitty drug policy, but don’t pretend this is some Machiavellian plot to “get” Mexico.

As for labor exploitation… well, shit.  That’s right on the nose.  NAFTA was a cute little treaty.  You can move everything freely back and forth across the border… except labor.  We’ve got an unwritten tariff on labor.  We offer a hefty tax break - in the form of no minimum wage - to businesses that employ outside the borders.  Mexican goods are given free reign to ebb and flow over the border, to compete in US store fronts with domestic products.  But Mexican services are quarantined by state, preventing the actual wage earners from finding the highest price for their services.  It’s a broken system.  No doubt.

Comment #19: Zifnab  on  03/26  at  10:54 AM

I have no idea where Peretz even thinks he’s coming from on the whole Catholic dogma thing. Sweet Lady of Guadalupe, the Catholic Church is probably more separate from the government of Mexico than religion is from any other government in the Western Hemisphere, apart from Cuba. Google the Cristiada you idiot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cristero_War). Note that there hasn’t been a Catholic party of any type in Mexico since then, even Catholic demonstrations were out of bounds until the PAN took over in the 90’s. Unlike the United States were one major party is wholly controlled by cultists, either Objectivists or Christian Dominionists, and religious demonstrations are daily.

But ya know, all them spics are the same.

Comment #20: histro-geek  on  03/26  at  10:57 AM

(Shrugs.)  Marty Peretz stopped being a real liberal ages ago and took TNR with him.  This is utterly unsurprising.

Comment #21: seeker6079  on  03/26  at  11:00 AM

Also, Santa Anna was a humongous dick and - frankly - had it coming to him.

In the Mexican-American and War of Texas Independence, I think it’s safe to say both sides were huge dicks.

Comment #22: Ben D.  on  03/26  at  11:00 AM

“You can get mad at the United States for having a shitty drug policy, but don’t pretend this is some Machiavellian plot to “get” Mexico.”

I don’t think anyone thinks our ridiculously toxic drug policy is a plot to get Mexico, but it’s really abundantly clear that we couldn’t give less of a shit about how many other countries we destabilize or gross human rights abuses we contribute to with our crazypants crusade.  It’s not just ourselves we’re fucking over with this one.

Comment #23: preying mantis  on  03/26  at  11:06 AM

a few years before Texas revolted from Mexico.

Excuse, but Texas did not revolt from Mexico. Americans settled in Texas, with the permission of the Mexican government, and then used that as a staging point to wrest the land away.

Saying “Texas” revolted under those conditions would be like saying that if half the population of France moves into Wyoming tomorrow and then declares themselves independent of America, you wouldn’t - I hope - say that “Wyoming” revolted. You’d point out that the Wyoming residents had little or no say in the matter.

Your “point” that Santa Anna was a dick…has nothing to do with anything.

Comment #24: Essie Elephant  on  03/26  at  11:24 AM

I WISH we had near-tropical work habits in RI! I’d love to be able to take a siesta in the middle of the work day, once I start working again.

Bast

Comment #25: GreyLadyBast  on  03/26  at  11:32 AM

Amanda, I think you missed the best double-reverse-bigotry trick of all: “Catholic dogma with the usual unacknowledged compromises.” In the very same sentence, Peretz is giving a shout-out to people who hate Catholics; people who like Catholics, but hate dogma; people who like dogma, but hate compromises; and people who like compromises as long as those darn Catholic dogmatic compromisers would just acknowledge them. (Imagine the psychic corruption of a nation full of unacknowledged compromises! Poor America, saddled with neighbors who haven’t worked through all of their “issues”!)

That, or he was just typing whatever crap came into his head and trusting that it would support his argument somehow.

Comment #26: Hob  on  03/26  at  11:42 AM

I didn’t know he was against Mexicans too!  I guess they look like Palestinians before you put your glasses on.

Comment #27: Neil the Ethical Werewolf  on  03/26  at  11:46 AM

Excuse, but Texas did not revolt from Mexico. Americans settled in Texas, with the permission of the Mexican government, and then used that as a staging point to wrest the land away.

Saying “Texas” revolted under those conditions would be like saying that if half the population of France moves into Wyoming tomorrow and then declares themselves independent of America, you wouldn’t - I hope - say that “Wyoming” revolted. You’d point out that the Wyoming residents had little or no say in the matter.

Your “point” that Santa Anna was a dick…has nothing to do with anything.

Essie E, It’s really not as simple as that. Those Anglo settlers moved into the middle of a major dispute about the shape of Mexican federalism in the 1830s. There were plenty of Mexicans in Texas who wanted various levels of autonomy from Mexico City and welcomed white settlement and saw it as a means to an end or wished to move more towards the U.S.

For a very good, though very dry, history of this period that focuses on the question of Mexican federalism, I can’t recommend enough Andres Resendez’s “Changing National Identities at the Frontier” (Cambridge: 2004)

Comment #28: Babieca  on  03/26  at  11:50 AM

It’s getting to the point that the congenital amnesia most Americans have about history is becoming dangerous.  Mind you, the oatmeal crap that kids are fed in grade school in the guise of history texts and lectures is one hairsbreadth from being useless - and, of course, is so fucking boring that the majority of Americans take pride in “knowing nothing about history” - but it’s our cultural stereotype that Americans as a whole think that history is irrelevant and doesn’t apply to them.  Remember that “End of History” crap fed us about a decade or so ago after the Soviets collapsed?  “Yay, we won history!”

It’s hard for us to realize that the United States has had a habit of mucking about with governments in this hemisphere since Monroe.  Texas, the Mexican-American wars, William Walker, the Fruit Company invasions, Cuba, Puerto Rico, the Drug Wars - we’ve been the bully on the block for two centuries.  We invaded Canada a couple of times, too, and remember after the U.S. Civil War we almost did it again.

Yet yahoos like the writer can still stare with dewy Bambi eyes and say “What did we ever do to Mexico?”  Yes, the U.S.‘s conquest of the northern Mexican territories was around two hundred years ago, but remember, Mr. Nimrod Idiot, that we’ve been invading them every so often since - where, pray tell, did “Black Jack” Pershing (the U.S. commanding general in WWI) get his name?  Oh, that’s right, during punative expeditions into Mexico in the early 20th Century. 

I’m not saying we Americans are necessarily more or less evil than any other nation-state in the world; it’s just we forget that we’re not always the golden beloved child of all peoples.  We exercise State power just like every other nation has always done but we forget just as quickly.  Other peoples, however, DON’T.  Why does, for instance, Iran have a big grudge towards the United States?  Perhaps because the CIA engineered the overthrow of the first popularly-elected Iranian government in the 1950s and propped up the Shah until the late 1970s.  Is that, however, commonly known?  No…and if it’s mentioned said mentioner is obviously a Hippie Commie Wierdo America-Hating Atheist Baby-Killing Liberal.

So…Mexico is going through major unrest provoked by the shift of the drug trade from the Gulf sea route to overland through the border into Texas and California.  The Mexican civil authorities are not “lazy” or “failed” but overwhelmed by the influx of drug money and gangs which are the product of that trade.  I would put good money down that if a major illegal drug was harvested in Greenland and sent overland through Alberta that we’d be seeing armed gangs of Canadians fighting along our northern border as the Canadian government was overwhelmed in a similar fashion.

It’s also useful to remember that before the diversion of the drug trade through Mexico that nation was actually on the verge of growth and development; the stranglehold of the one-party system had been broken, its economy and infrastructure were developing, and Mexico seemed well on its way towards First-World status. 

In the end I’m not arguing that somehow everything bad in the world is the fault of the United States.  I’m just trying to emphasize that we’re awfully forgetful about our own role in history and how our actions can hit us with blowback from unanticipated directions.

Comment #29: tannenburg  on  03/26  at  11:54 AM

What did the US do to Mexico?  I don’t know, how about carrying out an “unacknowledged” war until around 1920?  Then supporting a corrupt one party state during the Cold War.

Comment #30: Robert  on  03/26  at  11:56 AM

As for “exploited their labor”, I don’t know where to begin.  While I deplore many of the living and working conditions, I hardly see the United States policy as something that forces anyone to come over our border to get a job.

You’re thinking “force” when the correct term is “encourages.”  Every one of our laws against illegal workers encourages companies to hire them over and over again with nothing but a slap on the wrist if they get caught.

I’m pleased to find out that you have never, ever, benefited from illegal labor in your own life.  You’ve never hired an illegal worker at Home Depot, or to mow your lawn, or to clean your house, and you’ve thoroughly investigated any company that you’ve hired to do those things to make sure they don’t have any illegal workers.  In fact, you always refuse to eat in restaurants that can’t prove to you that all of their workers are here legally.  You eat only the fruits and vegetables that you grow yourself since most produce is picked by illegal workers.  You’ve given up chicken since Tyson has been prosecuted three times for hiring illegal workers.  Whenever a house is being built in your neighborhood, you stop by to make sure there are no illegal workers on the site.  You’ve checked the paperwork for the people who clean your office after-hours to make sure they’re all legal.

Right?  Otherwise, you need to get off your high horse and recognize that you, too, are benefiting from illegal labor keeping prices artificially low.

Comment #31: Mnemosyne  on  03/26  at  12:00 PM

3letterjon, I think your pro-legalization point ends up supporting Ms. Kate’s argument—US policy mistakes are responsible for terrible stuff happening in Mexico.

Comment #32: Neil the Ethical Werewolf  on  03/26  at  12:01 PM

It’s hard for us to realize that the United States has had a habit of mucking about with governments in this hemisphere since Monroe.

A huge part of our illegal labor problem stems from the wars we funded in Central America during the 1980s, which caused huge masses of people to leave places like Guatemala, El Salvador and Nicaragua so they wouldn’t be slaughtered by roving death squads.  Our lovely policy that anyone who feared being murdered by the death squads we funded was clearly a Communist and needed to be deported back to be killed meant that thousands—if not millions—of people ended up staying here illegally because it was either that or let themselves be slaughtered.

Not to mention that a lot of Mexicans end up crossing the border and coming to the US because—surprise!—refugees from Central America will work for a lot cheaper than native-born Mexicans, so they get squeezed out of jobs in their own country because of the number of refugees that flooded across their borders during those US-funded wars.

But, hey, let’s be like jon and focus on the fact that we, personally, have never even so much as broken the speed limit or run a stop sign, and being on that moral high ground means we can ignore all of the policies of the past 30 years that got us here and tell ‘em all to go back to Mexico, even if they’re not Mexican.

Comment #33: Mnemosyne  on  03/26  at  12:09 PM

Zinfab, until I can buy weed at a liquor store, priorities are set on drugs according to addictiveness and dangerousness and other scientific and best practices methods, and there are enough rehab beds for all who want them, fuck yeah the US hasn’t done what it needs to.

Searching school kids aint it babe.

Comment #34: Ms Kate  on  03/26  at  12:09 PM

CassieC is right. We don’t have to force people to cross the border for jobs. NAFTA does it for us.

But our little free trade agreement also exploits the hell out of labor right there in Mexico (heard of maquiladoras? no?), which also leads to border crossing.

Marty should check out the concept of manifest destiny. Way back before we had the means to be a colonial power, we were aspiring to it! We just got there by economic means more often than military.

Comment #35: cedarcrane  on  03/26  at  12:21 PM

or perhaps i should say, more consistently by economic means than by military. Because we’ve done a whole lot of invading in the western hemisphere

Comment #36: cedarcrane  on  03/26  at  12:23 PM

@ummeli & bast

I tried to deal with the “near tropical” in my first comment. It is NO WAY as folksy as it sounds - it is a dog whistle to a long long lineage of racist colonial claptrap.

Comment #37: CassieC  on  03/26  at  12:28 PM

cedarcrane - Not to be nitpicky, but I might also toss in the Samoas, Hawaii, the Phillipines, concessions in pre-Communist China (the Sand Pebbles is a great movie to reference there)...we’ve had fun invading all over the place!

Comment #38: tannenburg  on  03/26  at  12:32 PM

or perhaps i should say, more consistently by economic means than by military. Because we’ve done a whole lot of invading in the western hemisphere

Military intervention is always a last resort under imperial capitalism. The marines in Nicaragua in 1912, Haiti,  hell, even the U.S.S. Maine were all sent to ostensibly protect U.S. property in foreign lands. Although to be fair, protecting the Canal and keeping Europe and the Soviets out of the hemisphere also led to some geo-strategic interventions, but they aren’t really imperialism according to any of the classic definitions, and even then, we preferred a proxy war to sending in the Bluejackets. Not that it makes a whole lot of difference to the people living there.

Comment #39: Babieca  on  03/26  at  12:42 PM

I think it is important, for us as progressives (or, for me anyway) to practice de-centering the United States as the source of all action - for good and ill - in Mexico or the rest of Latin America.  Yes - we have bad policies wrt to drugs which have had and are having terrible consequences, yes our hands are filthy from mucking about in other people’s shit (as well as our own) - from European settlement on. 

But Mexicans, and all other Latin Americans, do not only re-act in response to U.S. activities and policies.  They are not passive (or lazy!) by-standers in their own lives or their own histories, helplessly blown around by the giant to the north.  To speak as though they were and are is to re-enact all the patronizing, colonizing white-liberal do-gooderism that is part and parcel of the same racist place that Peretz is coming from.

Comment #40: nell  on  03/26  at  12:45 PM

About Catholic dogma and its unacknowledged compromises:  this basically means that the weird rococo Papists have their weird Papist ways but practice birth control anyway.  Amanda, I hope you’ll alert our old friend Bill Donohue to this terrible, awful, nasty, vicious anti-Catholic slur!  I would pay good money (and make bags of popcorn for everyone) to watch a Donohue-Peretz mudwrestling extravaganza.

Comment #41: Michael Bérubé  on  03/26  at  12:48 PM

The Tropical Work Ethic idea is even more complicated than you think CassiC, you’re right, it is colonial claptrap.  For the unitiated, Tropical Work Ethic is the idea that people who live in warm climates, for many reasons, do not feel a need to work.  Some think heat causes lethargy, some think its easier to survive, easier to grow things (editorial laugh).  Examples are the Mediterranean (Italian siesta, Greek patience or something), extractive economic models (Spanish Empire’s bullionism, OPEC), or just generally being poorer than Northern Europe, and places where the British planted very large numbers of white people.  Plenty of counterexamples past and present, I’d suggest using the ones form present if you want to do a rebuttal.  In short, its factually incorrect, but has believers.

Comment #42: agolden  on  03/26  at  12:52 PM

you’re right, nell. the US isn’t the country with agency in the region. and pretending we are the sole force in Mexico’s or any other country’s economy is just as silly as pretending we are innocent victims of some southern invasion.

but when someone starts asking, “oh! what did we ever do to Mexico?” the answer (plenty) needs to be reiterated.

Comment #43: cedarcrane  on  03/26  at  01:01 PM

Ya, the weird thing about the “near tropical” bunk is that in most places they worked the same number of hours as we now consider appropriate for a work day. But in British colonial times, what was considered an appropriate work day for the working poor was what we’d now consider inhumane in many ways. So ya, when that stereotype started up, with people taking a break during the killer heat of mid-day, they were taking “time off” that workers in more northern lattitudes were not allowed. So if both workers worked “sun up to sun down”* despite the days being marginally longer in the tropics, the people who didn’t work during the hottest hours of the day were seen as catching an undeserved break.

As I said, total bunk. The historical reason for the phrase was envy and the modern reason is bigotry. Fruit of the same tree.

*while there was light, since paying for lighting was an extra expense most employers didn’t want to spend.

Comment #44: kodiak  on  03/26  at  01:07 PM

Oh, I agree completely, Nell.  No nation-state is an independent actor which operates in a vacuum of passive victims.  Reality is - despite what many people would like - complex; local elites, for instance, may welcome American intervention in order to shore up their own status, or even to invite such intervention.

I’m mainly concerned with the America-does-no-wrong crap which I hear constantly bandied about, and (of course) reacting to the charge of “moral relativism” every time some uncomfortable facts about the United States and its historical foreign policy are brought up as matters of evidence.

Comment #45: tannenburg  on  03/26  at  01:11 PM

where, pray tell, did “Black Jack” Pershing (the U.S. commanding general in WWI) get his name?  Oh, that’s right, during punative expeditions into Mexico in the early 20th Century.

Well, no.  He got that name by serving in the 10 Cavalry (black enlisted men under white officers) in the 1890’s

He commanded one expedition into Mexico, after Pancho Villa attacked US troops and civilians on the US side of the border.  Probably as justified as our present wsr in Afghanistan (which is to say, there was a good case to make for the initial use of force, but we stayed way too long, and allowed ourselves to lose sight of our original goal)

concessions in pre-Communist China

Technically wrong—we had ships and occasionally troops in China, but no “concessions”—our policy was the famous “Open Door.”

Stolen their prime land in an illegal war

Well, the land we took is only prime in hindsight, after gold was discovered, and air conditioning invented, and a lot of major irrigation projects completed.

As to the legality of the war, well, the technical rights and wrongs of the border dispute that led to the war would puzzle a team of lawyers.  The war was not unwelcome to a lot of the Mexican leadership, who thought (with some reason) that their army was stronger and more professional than ours, and that they would kick our butts.  The real moral objection to the war was that it was in support of the expansion of slavery.

Comment #46: rea  on  03/26  at  01:15 PM

“Poor Mexico.  So far from God and so near to the United States.’
Porfirio Diaz

Comment #47: seeker6079  on  03/26  at  01:26 PM

But Mexicans, and all other Latin Americans, do not only re-act in response to U.S. activities and policies.  They are not passive (or lazy!) by-standers in their own lives or their own histories, helplessly blown around by the giant to the north.  To speak as though they were and are is to re-enact all the patronizing, colonizing white-liberal do-gooderism that is part and parcel of the same racist place that Peretz is coming from.

That’s a pretty easy way to reject any responsibility by the US for the problems, isn’t it?  “Well, those countries all have their own agency and operate independently, so any bad actions we might have taken are inconsequential.”  It’s also the excuse I’ve heard multiple times for hating on illegal workers—“Hey, they chose to come here illegally of their own free will, so they should expect to be thrown into detention for three or four years without trial.”

Just saying, it’s a fine line and it’s just as easy to declare that everyone is a completely independent actor, so any problems that Mexico/Guatemala/El Salvador/Nicaragua has stemming from our funding of death squads in the Reagan years have nothing to do with us, as it is to claim the US is the sole source of all problems.

Comment #48: Mnemosyne  on  03/26  at  01:34 PM

rea - thank you for correcting my misinformation about Pershing’s nickname.  Always double-check your sources…

As for “concessions” in China, I’ll admit to a little hyperbole.  I was merely trying to stress that American troops and/or ships were at times dispatched throughout China to enforce “freedom of trade” and that therefore we had a military presence inside the borders of another sovereign state.

Comment #49: tannenburg  on  03/26  at  01:35 PM

Tropical Work Ethic is the idea that people who live in warm climates, for many reasons, do not feel a need to work.

Even in the US, Northerners had stereotypes of lazy Southerners, just getting by, marrying their 12 year old cousins and breeding a bunch of babies in a tumbledown shack. Look at Tobacco Road, Ma and Pa Kettle, etc. This ended when the South enacted “right-to-work” (for less than a union wage) laws, to seduce industry from the north.

But our little free trade agreement also exploits the hell out of labor right there in Mexico (heard of maquiladoras? no?), which also leads to border crossing.

Maquiladoras go back to the 50s, at least, by the way. The promise of NAFTA was that it would provide good jobs at good (but lower than US) wages for Mexicans in their own country, to reduce the economic pressure to migrate. Instead, the manufacturing jobs eventually all went to East Asia.

Further, subsistence farmers in Mexico could not compete with US government subsidized corn, which was now free to enter. (Yes, your tax dollars flow to every US farmer who grows a bushel of corn.)

The most obnoxious thing is Marty Peretz’s anti-Catholic bigotry. I would put a Catholic country like France or Italy, or even Spain, up against the Jewish country, any day.

Comment #50: Hector B.  on  03/26  at  01:50 PM

“I would put a Catholic country like France or Italy, or even Spain, up against the Jewish country, any day.”

In what, Hector B.? A game a checkers? And what is THE
Jewish country?

Care to qualify that comment a bit?

Comment #51: HooksInMyHead  on  03/26  at  01:55 PM

Sorry-I got a little miffed, that was supposed to read “a game OF checkers”

Comment #52: HooksInMyHead  on  03/26  at  01:57 PM

I don’t want to threadjack. I mean the one with its characteristic deficiencies: a continual inability to get along with its neighbors, failure to compensate its displaced natives, an inability to see things from anyone else’s point of view, reflexive defensiveness, etc.

Comment #53: Hector B.  on  03/26  at  02:03 PM

Hector,

One does not effectively combact prejudice and bigotry with a different flavor of prejudice and bigotry.

Comment #54: Essie Elephant  on  03/26  at  02:34 PM

Thanks Essie, you beat me to it and with more grace than I would have been to muster.

Comment #55: HooksInMyHead  on  03/26  at  02:40 PM

That’s a pretty easy way to reject any responsibility by the US for the problems, isn’t it? 

No.  Not unless you think it can only be one or the other.  Full responsibility or none.  But I think that is a pretty simplistic way to think about it - and especially - to talk about it on a progressive blog that carries as one of its mottoes: this is a both/and blog.

Comment #56: nell  on  03/26  at  02:43 PM

HooksInMyHead, you’er too kind. I had to count to a number significantly higher than ten before I could manage the “poise” part of it. My first draft was, largely, “WFT!!?!” smile

Comment #57: Essie Elephant  on  03/26  at  02:46 PM

RE: Essie and the Alamo - and sorry, but I don’t feel like reading through all of the comments.

Yeah, try telling Texans that our state is a product of illegal immigration; it gets them pretty heated.

Comment #58: Atheist Feminazi  on  03/26  at  02:52 PM

Essie, I am sadly unable to resist the “look at the pot calling the kettle black” argument. In my book, only the sinless can go about chucking stones, especially if they live in glass houses.

Comment #59: Hector B.  on  03/26  at  03:03 PM

Hector B.,

I’m always up for a good flame war, but seriously, your “pot, kettle, black” would seem to indicate that you think I am using prejudice and bigotry to make a point? I very well may be, what with white privilege and all - by all means, please point out my bigotry and prejudice so that I can rectify it.

If that isn’t what you meant, please clarify.

Comment #60: Essie Elephant  on  03/26  at  03:08 PM

INTPagan,

I haven’t seen you in forever. * Internet hugs *

And, yeah, the Alamo exhibit was tough to see. Huge tragedy, and a terrible loss of life, I mean, the whole thing was very solemn and saddening. But it bothers me that the “illegal immigrants stealing our land” aspect was completely, 100%, totally unmentioned.

Rewriting history via intentional silence is not healthy, in my opinion.

Comment #61: Essie Elephant  on  03/26  at  03:10 PM

Essie, certainly not you. I mean the unabashedly uncritically pro-Israel Marty Peretz.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Peretz

Comment #62: Hector B.  on  03/26  at  03:14 PM

Peretz has no firm ground from which to criticize countries based on how their religious dogma affects them.

Comment #63: Hector B.  on  03/26  at  03:17 PM

Hector,

In the future, if you’re trying to point out that someone is an anti-Catholic bigot and a pro-Israel-no-matter-what bigot, you might not want to leave out the second part of the equation like you did there. If you had at least said, “Peretz seems to automatically hate all Catholic countries, but he never questions anything Israel does, no matter what,” then I think it would have been more clear that you were pointing out that the author has several biases, not just one.

Having said that, your rejoinder was less saying that “Pro-Israel mentality with facts be damned is narrow-minded” and more “Israel sucks compared to France.” And that’s not helpful, sorry.

Comment #64: Essie Elephant  on  03/26  at  03:19 PM

Peretz has no firm ground from which to criticize countries based on how their religious dogma affects them.

Probably the statement that should have been started with. smile

Comment #65: Essie Elephant  on  03/26  at  03:19 PM

Thanks Essie.

I will take more time before commenting in future.

Comment #66: Hector B.  on  03/26  at  03:21 PM

Peretz apparently missed the part where the northern half of Mexico is not tropical.

Comment #67: keshmeshi  on  03/26  at  03:30 PM

I would pay good money (and make bags of popcorn for everyone) to watch a Donohue-Peretz mudwrestling extravaganza.

Pleeeese! Bonus points if they have to wear Luchadore outfits.  LUCHA LUCHA LUCHA!

Comment #68: Ms Kate  on  03/26  at  04:27 PM

Well, let me throw down a few questions in response.

Why is Mexico an economic hellhole when it ought to be the second or third-wealthiest country in the hemisphere?

At the end of the Korean War, South Korea was an authoritarian basket case and in economic hell, dwarfed in economic product per capita by its communist opponent to the north, at war technically with that opponent, short coastline, mountainous miserable terrain, almost no oil, no hot beaches for tourism.  Japan is hundreds of miles away by water and China is menacing to the west.

Mexico has thousands and thousands of miles of gorgeous warm coastline, a relatively friendly border with the U.S. and access to the massive ridiculously wealthy U.S. market, lots of oil, warm beaches all over the place, plenty of industrial port options and a strong manufacturing base in concrete inter alia.

So why precisely is South Korea a wealthy country and Mexico a basket case?  Why do Mexicans escape to the U.S. while South Koreans built a wealthy society (not as wealthy as Japan, but wealthier than some of Western Europe?  What’s the FAIL?

Comment #69: Bruce Godfrey  on  03/26  at  04:38 PM

Why, Bruce, you are correct; it must be because Mexicans just suck; it couldn’t possibly have anything to do with that close relationship that they have with the US - especially in the drug trade.  We couldn’t possibly have anything to do with the hellhole it is in some places.

Comment #70: Atheist Feminazi  on  03/26  at  04:41 PM

To be fair, in my experience, lily white hard-working industrialist norteamericanos will all quit and sit around doing basically absolutely nothing when the air conditioning breaks down in the middle of a heat wave.

Saying “People don’t work as hard when it’s really fucking hot” strikes me as less racist than tautological. *NO* one works very hard when it’s really hot. Because working really hard in the heat is a good way to die, and we’re evolved to, y’know, notice this, being that we all originated in very hot regions of the world, thus explaining why we DON’T HAVE FUR.

So maybe people don’t work as hard in the tropics. So what? Move the exact same people to a more temperate zone and they’ll bust ass; move the hard workers from the temperate zones to the subtropics and watch them sit around at the water cooler sipping iced tea instead of working. Besides, us USAns demand a harder, more brutal pace out of our workers, what with our mandatory overtime and our 2 weeks of vacation max and our zillions of low-paid workers who don’t get any sick time, than almost any other technologically advanced country in the world, so us complaining about other people not working hard is… well, not hypocritical, but ridiculous. Kind of like people who run marathons for a living complaining that everyone else walks *so slow!* Dude, you run marathons all the time when you could be walking, and as a result you won’t have knees when you’re 40, and the slow guys all will. Shut the fuck up.

Comment #71: Alara J Rogers  on  03/26  at  04:44 PM

No.  Not unless you think it can only be one or the other.  Full responsibility or none.  But I think that is a pretty simplistic way to think about it - and especially - to talk about it on a progressive blog that carries as one of its mottoes: this is a both/and blog.

Since you didn’t present it as a both/and proposition but instead implied that pointing out the US’s culpability in the Central American wars of the 1980s was inherently racist, I’m not sure why you’re surprised to be questioned about it.

Comment #72: Mnemosyne  on  03/26  at  04:45 PM

Why is Mexico an economic hellhole when it ought to be the second or third-wealthiest country in the hemisphere?

You mean other than 30 years of having to deal with refugees from the various wars the US sponsored in Central America, or the vast gulf between rich and poor that creates an inherent instability that we’re starting to replicate right here in the good ol’ US of A?

Gee, I don’t know.  It must be because they suck.

Comment #73: Mnemosyne  on  03/26  at  04:48 PM

This little memory-nugget brought to you courtesy of the 1800s:

“Those damn Irish, coming over here and mooching off of us.  All they do is drink and fornicate and spread their vile Papism in our country.  Why, if they were any good at anything, they’d get off their shiftless asses back in Ireland and make something out of their country - look, England has been propping them up for centuries, and for what?  Look at them - they’re dirty and don’t speak a proper language.  Send ‘em all back to Ireland, I say.”

Now, substitute “Italians”, “Polish”, “Hungarians”, .etc ... and perhaps “Mexicans”... as you will.

Huddled masses my left eye.  Immigration has always been suspect here in the U.S., no matter what form.

Comment #74: tannenburg  on  03/26  at  05:05 PM

See, Tannenburg, every time I try to make that argument to people - that my ancestors, and theirs, were viewed with suspicion, too - they’ll start saying, yes, but these immigrants are *different* because their culture is *different* and blah blah, and, I mean, the people are brown, just in case you haven’t noticed, and so on and so forth.

It’s not that they’re racist, or anything, just that they are observant.

Comment #75: Atheist Feminazi  on  03/26  at  05:07 PM

I think there’s a worthwhile historical point here, that since the map of the US hasn’t really changed in living memory, Americans tend to think in terms of three maps—the one around the time of independence, the one at the time of the Civil War, and the one that exists now.

While the European powers were carving up Africa and bits of Asia in the 1800s, the US was doing its own imperial expansion. It might have been under the auspices of manifest destiny, but

Anyway, the border has always existed for arbitrage, whether it’s in (the Pacific island colonies like Saipan) or out (the Mexican farmacias and Tijuana bars.)

Comment #76: pseudonymous in nc  on  03/26  at  05:09 PM

Damn buttons. 

It might have been under the auspices of manifest destiny, but it was still colonization.

Comment #77: pseudonymous in nc  on  03/26  at  05:11 PM

INTPagan,

I hear that, too. And a lot of “but the Mexican immigrants won’t assimilate!” which is completely bogus because:

1. Most of them do, willingly.
2. Many of our ancestors didn’t want to, but did because children and grandchildren do that, so it’s just a matter of time for the unwilling ones.
3. There are still towns WAY up north that predominantly speak stuff like German and nobody is scared of them.

Comment #78: Essie Elephant  on  03/26  at  05:26 PM

INTP, in short form, that’s because people in this country have no freaking idea about their own past.  90% of Americans can sum up our history in a short series of incoherent factoids - Tea Party Revolution, Civil War, John Wayne Shootouts/Indian Wars, Jazz, The Great Patriotic World War Two, and their own lives punctuated with elections in which they don’t bother to vote.

As for the “culture and color” differences, back at the turn of the 20th, the Italians were greasy olive-brown people with wierd food; the Jews were shifty Orientals with bad moral character and suspicious religious practices; and the Polacks were stupid half-Mongols who couldn’t speak properly.

Comment #79: tannenburg  on  03/26  at  05:28 PM

I say it’s time we kick everyone out in reverse order of how they got here.

Comment #80: Atheist Feminazi  on  03/26  at  05:28 PM

(tongue planted firmly in cheek)

But…Essie, why would ANYONE ever be afraid of the Germans?

Comment #81: tannenburg  on  03/26  at  05:29 PM

Whoops, INTP.  I guess I’ll try to pack my bags and head off to Switzerland…or Norway…or Germany…or Poland…damnit.  That’s going to be a problem.

Comment #82: tannenburg  on  03/26  at  05:30 PM

“Why is Mexico an economic hellhole when it ought to be the second or third-wealthiest country in the hemisphere?”

I sure hope that was meant ironically. Mexico IS the third wealthiest country in the hemisphere behind the United States and Brazil, both much larger countries by population. (See https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2001rank.html) True it and Canada often swap places based on the current price of oil. And as the 11th largest national economy in the world, it can hardly be considered an “economic hellhole”.

Comment #83: histro-geek  on  03/26  at  05:56 PM

you’ve summed up perfectly how I feel about so much of the anti-immigrant crap spit out by this bunch
kudos

Comment #84: xxxevilgrinxxx  on  03/26  at  06:23 PM

Bruce, S. Korea didn’t exactly do it on its own.  The US poured, and continues to pour, billions in aid, investment, loans, and preferential trade agreements to support Korea and MAKE it competive.  Cold war, remember?  It served our interest to build them up, so we did.  Mexico, not so much.  As well, nationalist sentiment in Mexico is justly anti-US dependency where S. Korean nationalism encouraged dependency on US so as to avoid being taken over by China.

Of course, it would be far simpler and require far less thought to just blame it on racial stereotypes of striving Asians and lazy Mexicans.  But you certainly weren’t about to go there, right?

Comment #85: Chocolate Covered Cotton  on  03/26  at  06:27 PM

Since you didn’t present it as a both/and proposition but instead implied that pointing out the US’s culpability in the Central American wars of the 1980s was inherently racist, I’m not sure why you’re surprised to be questioned about it.

What I wrote was: Yes - we have bad policies wrt to drugs which have had and are having terrible consequences, yes our hands are filthy from mucking about in other people’s shit (as well as our own) - from European settlement on.

But Mexicans, and all other Latin Americans, do not only re-act in response to U.S. activities and policies. 

Would bolding the ‘only’ have helped make my ‘both/and’ point more clearly?

What I said was racist was to speak of Latin Americans - from Mexico south - as though they are without agency, and only watch as the US merrily trashes their countries for it’s own amusement or obscure ends. 

This is even true when discussing Central America in the 1980s.  Which I note - I was not focusing on specifically.  Or I would have said so.

Now I will, since you brought it up.  In the case of Nicaruaga, to use one example - I am sure that the Ortega brothers and their supporters and the Chamorro family and theirs—just to name two sets of actors—are certain that *they* did things that mattered to their *own nation* for their *own* reasons.  That US policies - Cold War and Drug War shaped - (and here I qualify that they were generally stupid, counter-productive and had horrifically violent consequences for Central Americans lest you think I don’t know that even though I already said it once) made it far more difficult and dangerous and deadly for all of them, and for their fellow Nicaraguans, shouldn’t push them out of the center of their own lives.

Comment #86: nell  on  03/26  at  07:42 PM

RE: S. Korea; Not to mention that the US continues to provide military protection from those hostile powers who are supposedly such an economic drag according to Bruce.  Mexico is probably closer to the bomb-dropping side of US military intervention.

I would say Mexico is economically pretty hellish, if not as bad as some places in the hemisphere.  Americans don’t seem to realize this is a threat to their prosperity as well.  NAFTA’s goal was not to merely lower Mexican wages, but American as well.  Eventually both counties will have a tiny super-wealthy class that controls everything, and a huge population of disposable desperate workers.

Just as White Jesus intended.

Comment #87: Jrod  on  03/26  at  07:44 PM

Wow, this is the only time that Marty Peretz ever came close to sounding like Ben Franklin.

But not the good, inventing-things, witty Ben Franklin—the asshat xenophobic racist Ben Franklin.

...why should the Palatine Boors be suffered to swarm into our Settlements, and by herding together establish their Language and Manners to the Exclusion of ours? Why should Pennsylvania, founded by the English, become a Colony of Aliens, who will shortly be so numerous as to Germanize us instead of our Anglifying them, and will never adopt our Language or Customs, any more than they can acquire our Complexion.

Which leads me to add one Remark: That the Number of purely white People in the World is proportionably very small….in Europe, the Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians and Swedes, are generally of what we call a swarthy Complexion; as are the Germans also, the Saxons only excepted, who with the English, make the principal Body of White People on the Face of the Earth.

Comment #88: JupiterPluvius  on  03/26  at  11:02 PM

Hector B on tropical work ethics cited Ma and Pa Kettle as examples of this stereotype.

Except that they weren’t. Ma and Pa Kettle were characters in a book called “The Egg and I” which is based loosely on the life of the author, Batty MacDonald and is set in Washington state. Hardly tropical I would have thought.

/end pedantry

Comment #89: JC  on  03/27  at  12:02 AM

“and we’re evolved to, y’know, notice this, being that we all originated in very hot regions of the world, thus explaining why we DON’T HAVE FUR. “
I don’t think that’s actually why we’re (functionally) hairless, since most mammals in hot climates still have theirs. In fact, we’re a bit of an anomaly, as we’re one of the only hairless mammals that isn’t:

a. aquatic (manatees)
b. huge (elephants, rhinos)
c. both (hippos, whales)

Comment #90: Devonian  on  03/27  at  07:41 PM

or d. None of the above(mole rats)

Comment #91: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  03/27  at  10:54 PM

Mexico is a model economy for today’s GOP: low taxes for the rich and no social safety net for the poor.  Drill Baby Drill is the goal of the nationalized oil company, and money greases almost everything.  If not for the gun laws, I’d imagine Rush Limbaugh would be broadcasting from Hermosillo or Puerto Penasco.

Has the US been a good neighbor?  Yes and no.  Still, I think it’s as arrogant and myopic to see the US as the origin of Mexico’s current problems as it is to ignore the fact that many of our policies intentionally or unintentionally have harmed them.  But to say that a war a century and a half ago is the reason Mexico is so poor is pretty damn close to pointlessness.  Maybe Harry Turtledove can be the one to sort everything out in our past, but I’m no apologist for thinking I’d rather work for a better present and future than sort things out for my great-great-grandparents who were too busy farming in Lithuania and Finland at the time (or was it Prussia and Sweden then? I so need a reason to hate those inbred Hapsburgs or whatever.  And the Swedes.)

Comment #92: 3letterjon  on  03/28  at  01:15 AM

I don’t think that’s actually why we’re (functionally) hairless, since most mammals in hot climates still have theirs. In fact, we’re a bit of an anomaly, as we’re one of the only hairless mammals that isn’t:

a. aquatic (manatees)
b. huge (elephants, rhinos)
c. both (hippos, whales)
Devonian on 03/27 at 02:41 PM

I mentioned this on the last Galactica thread. I cited (sort of) theories that our relative hairlessness goes back to the earliest bipedal hominids, and has to do with the notion that bipedality itself was developed as a way of minimizing exposure to tropical sunlight (by being oriented vertically rather than horizontally). Thus we kept the hair on top of our heads, but became much less hairy elsewhere to allow for cooling via sweating.

The question arose in reference to how dark-skinned our ancestors were, and when this, and the hairlessness that makes it visible and relevant, happened. I was saying, over 2 and closer to 3 million years ago, and that just about all homininds (pretty much defined as bipedal) would have been less hairy and dark-skinned. (Except Neanderthals, who lived in the far north, up against glaciers…) Anyway long before our particular species evolved.

Comment #93: Mark Foxwell  on  03/28  at  02:35 AM

There are also hairlessness (and skin color) theories associated with Vitamin D and exposure to sunlight.  It all gets very complicated, and from what I’ve gathered it’s a crazed mix of testosterone, estrogen, melanin, progestin, the introduction of clothing, bipedal transportation, and natural and artificial selection.  In other words: proof of a designer who wants us all confused.  If the designer is us, it’s still confusing.

Comment #94: 3letterjon  on  03/28  at  10:25 AM

“or d. None of the above(mole rats) “
That’s why I said “one of the only”, lol.

Comment #95: Devonian  on  03/28  at  06:35 PM

You meant, “one of the few” smile

Comment #96: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  03/29  at  01:31 PM
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