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Next entry: Ideas vs. identity, redux Previous entry: Causation, correlation, controlling for income levels? Screw it.

Time to bring back the term “feudalism”

ChoadsEconomy

Sarah Jaffe has an amazing piece at Feministe about the turn that class warfare has taken in recent years.

Aggravated today by a New York Times story in which striking Verizon workers were forced to argue that their wages weren’t, in fact, “too high”–seeing them make the very valid point that living in the New York area and raising a family on $40,000-$70,000 a year doesn’t actually make them rich–I tweeted angrily:

“How the hell did we get into a world where workers making $60,000 are overpaid but CEOs making millions are overtaxed?”

I don’t tend to have that many Republican or libertarian Twitter followers, but when Kirsten Powers, a Fox News contributor, retweeted me, I was deluged with replies, some of which I’m reposting here (without user names, since I don’t know if these folks would care to share):

“becuase they are paying all those 60k wages. Without them, the people making 60k are unemployed.”

“Who assumes the most risk?”

“Pay is dependent upon what you accomplish for the company. If you make 60K and are not being productive..”

“If you have to threaten people with violence to earn $60K, you are overpaid.”

“because you can’t punish success. It’s anti-capitalist.”

“The workers making $60K accepted it while CEO’s demanded more, but how does the CEO’s wage negatively affect the $60K guy?”

I personally wasn't aware that the CEO of Verizon did all the work of building towers, working with customers, running accounts, and making sales.  But according to these guys, Verizon is simply a charity organization and "jobs" are actually welfare checks that hard-working CEOs write to people who don't work, presumably out of the kindness of their hearts.  How that's "capitalism", I don't know, but I will say this: Then why are they so upset at the strike? 

I mean, if the CEO is the only "productive" person at Verizon, then all of the "non-productive" people can go on strike and business should carry on without a blip, right?  You can't really have it both ways, believing that working people are leeches who contribute nothing, and then throwing yourself on the ground kicking and screaming when the non-productive leeches of the world stop contributing.  That literally makes no sense at all.  That's like being mad that a complete stranger who has never spoken to you tries to file for divorce against you.  You might be a little perturbed, but you're not like, "How dare they want to divorce me?!"  They can't divorce you.  You weren't married.  

Seriously, wingnuts, choose.  Either the workers contribute nothing to the company and therefore don't deserve compensation, or strikes are bad.  You can't have it both ways.  

Since their argument contradicts itself, I think it's time to consider the possibility that all this blather about "production" is just a cover story.  We need to start judging them by their actions instead of their illogical rhetoric.  And their actions suggest one very solid theme: a belief that this country shouldn't have a middle class.  That's what drove so much anger at Sarah, was her assumption that people who work for a living should get middle class wages.  The notion that someone, somewhere might work a full-time job for more money than what it keeps to barely keep them alive so they can work more sends these people around the bend.  

Which is why I propose dusting off an old term and bringing it back in fashion to describe their  ideology.  The current ones are insufficient.  "Libertarian" makes no sense, because they oppose the rights of workers to collectively demand better wages, a fairly basic liberty.  Instead, they expect these people to work hard and slobber gratefully that their masters tolerate paying them at all.  Nor are they really "conservative" in any meaningful sense.  I don't like conservatives, but conservatives are people who object to social progress.  But the existence of an American middle class has been around for a century now, and conservatives in the past were far less likely to object to its existence on the ideological grounds that no one but the rich deserve to have squat.

There's really only one term for people who believe, as a matter of ideology, that a handful of people deserve to own everything and the rest of us should living lives of endless work and squalor, with perhaps a slender class of people who get paid pretty handsomely to protect the interests of those who own everything: feudalists.  That's the system that they're clearly advocating for, albeit in modern terms, where the billionaires and company owners are our kings, top executives are the knight class, and everyone else is a peasant who works to death, gets four hours off for church on Sunday, and needs to be grateful that his masters allow him that.  

I bet if you groused on Twitter that the Koch brothers are supporting a return to droit du seigneur for CEOs with regards to their male employees' spouses, Kirsten Powers would retweet it so as to bring a calvacade of outrage on your head.  It's in our future, people.  I can't wait until a sea of Fox News advocates starts tweeting at Sarah, "Right, like some Verizon employee can really give good wedding night to his bride like CEO Lowell McAdam.  The workers produce nothing, so why should they be the ones to get the wedding night benefits?"

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 08:22 AM • (108) Comments

This really is funny.  And true.

Comment #1: helen w. h.  on  08/17  at  09:21 AM

“Who assumes the most risk?”

When a CEO does this, he can be said to assume the most risk.

Comment #2: Mighty Ponygirl  on  08/17  at  09:33 AM

Prison labor.

Inching toward debtor’s prisons.

Charging people for their own imprisonment.

Stick these three together, and what happens?

Comment #3: SomeGuy  on  08/17  at  09:35 AM

All those twitter trolls either think they’re going to end up in the executive suite so it better pay top dollar with no taxes, or they think spouting off the (literal) party line will get them a little patriarchal pat on the head and a $0.50 raise for being good little proles.

So which is it dudes?  Clinical-level delusions of grandiosity and unwarranted inflation of self-worth leavened with staggering amounts of denial?  Or Quisling-style cold-blooded selling out of your fellow workers in the vain hope you’ll benefit from attacking people just like you?

Take your pick. Neither seems very palatable, at least to anyone with something more than the mental capability of social insects…

Comment #4: MikeEss  on  08/17  at  09:44 AM

Re: MikeEss’ comment: right-the-fuck-on.  Seriously.

Comment #5: Phewd  on  08/17  at  09:50 AM

Our ownership class is playing with high explosives. Sooner or later- perhaps when the delusional serfs finally figure out that they’ve been had, and by whom- the whole thing is going to blow up in their faces. And that will be a tragedy for everybody (see under: 20th Century history).

Comment #6: Steve LaBonne  on  08/17  at  09:57 AM

I’ve been calling it a call for return to aristocracy for a while -  feudalism only makes sense as a followup.

I love the idea of troll baiting with droit du seigneur though. That would crack me up. (And depress the hell out of me, I suspect.)

Comment #7: LC  on  08/17  at  10:02 AM

These are the same people who are getting mad at Warren Buffett for saying the rich should take more of a tax burden, calling him a socialist. Yeah, the billionaire becomes a socialist when he doesn’t tow “the party line.”

Comment #8: Neil C.  on  08/17  at  10:14 AM

The who takes the risk one kills me. They have this notion of the classic small business that’s like when my dad started his business 50 years ago - he had himself, one machine and a loan to pay off. That’s risk.

The notion that the executives of any modern giant like Verizon accepts risk is utterly laughable. It’s the precise opposite. They’re set to make boatloads of money whether the company performs well or badly. Hell, in the case of bankers, even if they crash the world economy they feel entitled to their billions of bonuses. If they do get fired, they go with a golden parachute.

In the modern corporate world, all of the risk is borne by those low on the ladder. They’re the ones who will be unceremoniously fired with little to no severance when things go south. They’re the ones who are told they have to take pay and benefits cuts. They’re the ones who will have to pack the moving truck when the company ships their jobs to Mexico.

All the while, the sociopaths at the top will be crying crocodile tears that the top income bracket may increase four percent. Rat bastards.

Comment #9: Phoebe Fay  on  08/17  at  10:30 AM

I also love the notion that losing your job as a middle class person isn’t a “risk”.  How do they think people become homeless?

Comment #10: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/17  at  10:35 AM

Nothing encapsulates libertarian dystopia better for me than the fortress to fortess helicopter commute of business execuives in Brazil:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A42332-2002May31


As an aside,  I keep being amazed that the Ed Show on MSNBC, like it or not, is one of a very handful programs on TV to give any voice to the middle class and working families. Meanwhile you got slick-haired wankers on CNBC and Fox Bus crowing day and night about how unionized teachers are a bunch of overpaid fatcats.

Comment #11: ArielNYC  on  08/17  at  10:36 AM

I love the idea of troll baiting with droit du seigneur though. That would crack me up.

It has the added benefit of being French for extra troll aggravation.

Also, what MikeEss said.  It’s Joe the Not-Plumber redux: they’re worried about being taxed on their imaginary future income.  Because they’re totes going to be rich someday, and it’s never to early to start kissing ass so you get invited to all the cool country club parties.

Comment #12: Sour Kraut  on  08/17  at  10:41 AM

The problem is that “feudalism” historically required obligations both up and down the hierarchy.  The vassal owes military service to the lord, in exchange for protection.  The serf owes labor to the lord, in exchange for protection. If the lord does not recognize those obligations, the whole thing falls apart.

There’s a reasonably well-established word for the socio-economic system under which powerful people take what they want from less powerful people. It’s “barbarism.” Powerful barbarians sometimes give presents to those without power. If they feel like it. The important thing, that identifies so many modern politicians and business leaders as neo-barbarians, is that they don’t recognize any *obligation* to exchange goods, labor, or service for what they take.

Comment #13: Adrian  on  08/17  at  10:41 AM

And remember that “aristocracy” means “rule by the deserving”. When douchebags start talking about how CEO pay is an example of “meritocracy”, they mean the same thing, but in Latin rather than Greek.

Also, any proper discussion of feudalism needs to take into account the priestly class whose job is to enforce the rule that one’s reward in the afterlife is in direct inverse proportion to the level of trouble one makes in real life.

Comment #14: felagund  on  08/17  at  10:46 AM

I also love the notion that losing your job as a middle class person isn’t a “risk”.  How do they think people become homeless?

DUH people become homeless by being black and/or hated by god.

People have no fucking idea how someone becomes homeless. It’s disgraceful. I live in a city where the reasons behind homelessness are apparent, and homeless folks are in one’s face and ever-increasing. But if I drive 35 minutes west or north, I can visit friends who have literally never seen a homeless person ever in their lives. They still think it’s hoboes who carry sticks with satchels on them and jump the trains.

Comment #15: Well, what?  on  08/17  at  10:53 AM

The other term that properly applies here is “fascism” which includes the racial undertones to much of the current discussion.

Comment #16: TheOaf  on  08/17  at  10:59 AM

I love the idea of troll baiting with droit du seigneur though.

I’m not so sure that won’t just get them pumped up. Wow, in the imaginary future when *I* have the corner office I’ll get to fuck the hotties who work for me too?!

Adrian @13: That actually makes the analogy better.  Because a wingnut who says ‘no, feudalism meant the lord had to provide protection’ is, in essence, admitting that CEOs owe their workers even less in reciprocity than a medieval landowner owed to his serfs.

What’s particularly revealing about the reactions to Amanda’s tweet is that they’re non sequiturs. None of them answers the question of why $60,000 is outrageous entitlement for an average worker but $6 million is just dandy for a CEO.

Comment #17: mythago  on  08/17  at  11:04 AM

I recently started musing on the similarities of the current enviro to feudalism, so it makes me smile that somebody else thinks so too.

(And the Special Committee? Oligarchy.)

Comment #18: benvolio  on  08/17  at  11:06 AM

Droit de seigneur: Amanda discovers the real reason wingnuts are against gay marriage.

@Phoebe Fay:

But the executives do take on a risk: they might become only very wealthy instead of obscenely wealthy.

The kicker in these things is that virtually no publicly traded company has a provision for executives to repay performance bonuses if an audit discovers that sales or earnings statements were incorrect. Imagine how that would be for timesheets.

Comment #19: paul  on  08/17  at  11:06 AM

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Comment #20: then2011  on  08/17  at  11:08 AM

There are two conservative schools of “thought” on the existence of homeless people:

The first and less malicious of the two is that homeless people just are. They are breathed into being, and the state they now occupy is the state they’ve always occupied.

The second, more disgusting one, is just “choices.”

Comment #21: Big_Southern  on  08/17  at  11:13 AM

@MikeEss

I’ve always felt that it was way more of the first (people thinking, “When I get rich I don’t want to pay taxes!”) than the second (people actively screwing over their fellow workers for breadcrumbs) because the second is just so movie-villain-sinister.  I think people are too stupid & deluded that the first reason HAS to be driving the trolls.  It’s the same idea behind how the GOP gets people to vote against their own economic interests.

Comment #22: bouj  on  08/17  at  11:15 AM

Somehow my parents managed to open and operate a small business for over 30 years without thinking of themselves in nutbag Republican enterpreneur uber alles terms or acquiring the belief that they shouldn’t pay taxes and could withdraw from the social contract.

Henry Ford was a lot of things, but he understood that he’d make more money if people could afford to buy his products. That’s the thing about our alleged betters these days. They’re about as economically sensible in the long term as the proverbial grasshopper. But we have to pay them astronomical salaries and fawn over them because they have vast paid and unpaid marketing machines pumping up their value. Donald Trump’s status as an icon of anything but fail and hubris (didn’t he go bankrupt in the casino business? As someone who grew up next door to a pioneering Indian casino, I have some concept of how hard would be to do.) is almost impossible to believe. But, when you get to rig the game and spend lots of money telling everyone its fair and no one with influence seems willing to call bullshit, you get a lot of pure ridiculousness.

If there was a major political party in this country dedicated to the interests of the middle and working classes and hell, the majority of the lower upper class that might be a good thing.

Comment #23: witless chum  on  08/17  at  11:16 AM

I have a much better idea.

Why don’t we use the term that already exists for the people who “believe, as a matter of ideology, that a handful of people deserve to own everything and the rest of us should living lives of endless work and squalor”

They’re called Capitalists.

That’s what capitalism looked like for the entirety of its pre-WWII history.

People seem to keep forgetting that it’s the 1945-1975 version of capitalism that is the historical aberration…

Comment #24: Praxis  on  08/17  at  11:23 AM

Say what you will about the tenants of feudalism, dude, at least it’s an ethos.  Feudalism was, at least in theory, a two-way street.  These people won’t accept their feudal responsibilities to their employees.  They’re nihilists, not feudalists.

Comment #25: rea  on  08/17  at  11:30 AM

rea ftw   (nice slip tho)

Comment #26: paul  on  08/17  at  11:35 AM

This from Sarah’s piece (and because I’m from Detroit):

“Henry Ford was a union-busting, Nazi-sympathizing jerk, but he understood that to be successful people had to make enough money to buy his product–automobiles. The economy we have right now is the direct result of people no longer understanding that basic concept.”

Exactly. That anti-Semitic bastard understood the simple fact that if no one could afford a car, he couldn’t be the second richest man in America. Walmart has posted two straight years of lagging sales and the reason for that is the poor can no longer afford to go there and buy cheap, plastic crap. But a giant like Walmart doesn’t care because they are building crap stores overseas. When republicans whine about things hurting small business owners they never mention the biggest threat to a small business—lack of customers. Stagnant wages for the middle class is why you see small business closing left and right. But the tea baggers only offer “tax cuts” as the magical solution to a small business owners problems instead of offering the Henry Ford solution. Since he was, after all, a very successful business man.

Comment #27: serious bette  on  08/17  at  11:43 AM

Say what you will about the tenants of feudalism, dude, at least it’s an ethos.  Feudalism was, at least in theory, a two-way street.  These people won’t accept their feudal responsibilities to their employees.  They’re nihilists

That must be exhausting. wink

Comment #28: Well, what?  on  08/17  at  11:45 AM

Manymany years ago, in my locale, there was a certain local executive who was the center of much controversy, until, finally, he was fired.  But is “fired” the right word?  He left with a huge bonus and a glowing letter of recommendation, because his contract said so.

Some while later, we found out that he had had many jobs since he left grad school (he had a MBA, of course, all of these guys have an MBA) and every one of them had ended this way.

In essence, he had made a career out of being fired.  These guys win if they win, and if they lose, they also win.  Maybe even bigger, since they have the “golden parachute *and* a new job.

Comment #29: Older  on  08/17  at  11:45 AM

Perhaps it is time for us to consider making that “golden parachute” a literal thing: a nice big lump of pure gold in place of a cheap wad of nylon to take with them out of the airplane….

Comment #30: Dr. Psycho  on  08/17  at  11:52 AM

It’s not just “I don’t want to pay taxes when I inevitably get rich” and “screw the workers.” They also have this deeply embedded notion that your income is your inherent worth. Income is faultlessly linked to you and the effort you put in, so obviously the CEO deserves the $10 million and the worker deserves the $60,000. If the worker wanted more, then he would have made the right choices and worked hard and become the CEO.

For these people, questioning wages doesn’t even make sense, because what you earn is always directly tied to what you deserve. Asking for more is just entitled whining, which is why they object to unions, but taking away what you get is theft, which is why they object to taxing the rich.

Comment #31: Amphigorey  on  08/17  at  11:55 AM

I know someone who is a scab for verizon.  He’s proud of it.  Until a couple weeks ago, he was a friend of mine.

When I was in graduate school in Scotland, the NUM went on strike.  Although I wasn’t a miner, I supported the miners and helped Scottish miners.  I have no respect for scabs.

Comment #32: James  on  08/17  at  12:03 PM

Re #22. Ever hear of “Keeping up with the Jonses?”

Like it not in the US, success has always been seen as a competitive game. So the other guy losing is just as good as you winning. The modern phrase is that they’d be happy living in a cardboard box under a bridge eating a starling as long as the guy next to them didn’t have the starling.

The actual rational rationale for this, as it goes, is that the “war on inflation” has continued to the point to where they want disinflation. So they think that if you cut Verizon wages by 20% as an example, then prices will automatically go down by roughly that much so the majority is better off. Which is simply a stupid idea.

Comment #33: Karmakin  on  08/17  at  12:15 PM

I’m with .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address). There’s nothing at all novel about this.

Comment #34: Finnegan  on  08/17  at  12:23 PM

So which is it dudes?  Clinical-level delusions of grandiosity and unwarranted inflation of self-worth leavened with staggering amounts of denial?  Or Quisling-style cold-blooded selling out of your fellow workers in the vain hope you’ll benefit from attacking people just like you?

They learned everything they know about business from Dwight Schrute.

Comment #35: junk science  on  08/17  at  12:27 PM

THIS. I’ve been saying “feudalist” in response to socialist for a while.

Comment #36: typist  on  08/17  at  12:29 PM

Amurikans who feel themselves to be superPatriots don’t know shit about the countries’ economic history of booms and busts and the chaos that they threw peoples’ lives into when things went down, down, down.

The modern phrase is that they’d be happy living in a cardboard box under a bridge eating a starling as long as the guy next to them didn’t have the starling.

That’s like the Gore Vidal quote:  “It is not enough to succeed. Others must fail.”

Comment #37: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  08/17  at  12:32 PM

That’s like the Gore Vidal quote:  “It is not enough to succeed. Others must fail.”

Dark Avenger, that reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw on a car once.  It read “Your failure is my success.”  I remember wondering what kind of an asshole would think that way.

Comment #38: Tommykey  on  08/17  at  12:52 PM

“I love the idea of troll baiting with droit du seigneur though.”

The best part is that they wouldn’t have a god damn clue as to what it was, so as long as someone from Fox News we need it, they would argue for it till their own death.

Comment #39: Mark  on  08/17  at  12:53 PM

I know someone who is a scab for verizon.  He’s proud of it.  Until a couple weeks ago, he was a friend of mine.

Anyone else noticed a ballooning sector of white collar skeeze jobs? I know a few friends who’ve finally found employment as for-pay college admissions officers or copy editing for spam sites. I can’t really be pissed at them for it because work is work but damn, whatever happened to corpse washing?

Comment #40: scrumby  on  08/17  at  01:00 PM

I frankly don’t know what it means to be overpaid anyway. I think what a lot of people realize is that $60,000 is a lot more than a similarly skilled non-Verizon worker would be able to make, and a lot of people interpret this to mean that they are “overpaid.” I think you could just as easily make the argument that the other people are underpaid. The whole concept of your “fair” pay is too fuzzy to even discuss, I don’t even know why people engage in discussion about it. I also don’t particularly object to CEO pay. Some CEOs are worth their pay to the firm, some of their pay has no connection to firm performance. Modern corporate governance has failed in that regard, and nobody has any particularly good idea on how to fix it. I don’t know whether Verizon’s CEO has done a good job, or if his salary is just a product of a captured board. The bigger problem is optimal contract structure, rather than the actual pay, but that’s for a different discussion.

You clearly don’t know many libertarians, though. Libertarians see collective bargaining as perfectly consistent with freedom (whether they think voluntary unionism is a good thing takes very divergent views, however). Left-libertarians would argue that they are vital counterweight because the current political and economic system attributes unfair advantages to certain corporate powers. Right-libertarians would say they are just something you unfortunately have to put up with. Most libertarian socialists would prefer you replace the current firm structure with trade unions and participatory firm governance. What libertarians object to is government interfering with the right of individual workers to refuse to join a union and things like the NLRB.

On the feudalism bit - I think everyone should shy away from that language. If someone is making $60,000 per year, they are one of the richest people in the world. They are in the top 1% of income distribution. There are billions of people who actually do live under the worst type of economic and social oppression. To use a term that seemingly throws us anywhere in the same camp as them is to diminish, if not unintentionally mock, their own suffering under oligarchy. You can argue that whatever political-economic system we have is unjust (as I personally would), but I think we should keep away from terms that seemingly even imply comparative suffering to the truly poor.

Comment #41: Ted H.  on  08/17  at  01:04 PM

Ted H.—$60K per year means incredibly different things depending on where you live. For most of the northern East Coast and places like San Francisco, 60K a year just barely enough to care for yourself without living in the ghetto. In a place like Arizona, 60K per year means a comfortable middle-class life.

In AMERICA, The top 1% starts at $127K/year (this has probably gone up a little as those numbers are a few years old). 60K may put you in the top 1% globally, but it doesn’t necessarily mean you can live comfortably in America. In NYC, 60K a year might get you a 1BR out in Far Rockaway, or if you want to live a little closer and take less than an hour commuting into the city, you might be able to swing two whole bedrooms in Bed-Stuy and get your ass shot at while you commute.

I realize that there are people who live in developing nations that survive on like, a few bucks a day, but their lifestyle is not envious, and given the US’s zoning laws, it’s not something that could be replicated.

Comment #42: Mighty Ponygirl  on  08/17  at  01:13 PM

I have been saying that conservatives hate the idea of prosperity for Americans for a while now.

It’s not about their perceived benefits.  It’s about the fact that they are so completely owned by their hate for America that they will do anything to bring about its poverty and failure.

And it all gets back to race . . .

Comment #43: Punditus Maximus  on  08/17  at  01:15 PM

Donald Trump’s status as an icon of anything but fail and hubris (didn’t he go bankrupt in the casino business? As someone who grew up next door to a pioneering Indian casino, I have some concept of how hard would be to do.) is almost impossible to believe.
Comment #23: witless chum on 08/17 at 11:16 AM

You can’t get full value out of a company you work for if they have anything left when you leave.  There’s no doubt money was made, it just didn’t go back into the company.  He is successful, the company is not.  The parasite moves on to another host.

Dark Avenger, that reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw on a car once.  It read “Your failure is my success.”  I remember wondering what kind of an asshole would think that way.
Comment #38: Tommykey on 08/17 at 12:52 PM

Foreclosure officer?

Though I’m wondering if it was “your loss is my success” because the driver is a weight loss counselor or something stupid like that.

Comment #44: oldfeminist  on  08/17  at  01:19 PM

41: No true Scotsman alert!

Comment #45: Blitzgal  on  08/17  at  01:29 PM

You clearly don’t know many libertarians, though.

Wrong.  We know way too many.  All too eager to blunder in here and make pathetic excuses for the shameless abuse of power by their economic betters, then cry ‘socialism’ at anyone with a skinny wallet who tries to fight back.

More importantly, it’s this corrupt, power-worshipping strain of libertarianism that holds sway over American leadership & institutions like Alan Greenspan & Wall Street.

Comment #46: Sour Kraut  on  08/17  at  01:55 PM

TheOaf:

Not quite. Fascism isn’t inherently racist per se; it’s intensely nationalist, not to mention elitist. It does usually manifest as racism, but it doesn’t have to.

Comment #47: BrianX  on  08/17  at  02:03 PM

@Ted H: I know lots of libertarians and very few would make either of those arguments. The ones that make the latter argument almost always follow it with the “No interference from the government!” argument that would allow the company to just fire all the workers. Or fire cannons at them.

That seems to be the dividing line between the left and right libertarians. The left leaning think you can fire them all, the right leaning ones think you should be able to use force to break a picket.

Comment #48: JThompson  on  08/17  at  02:10 PM

I like the ‘capitalist aristocracy’ meme a lot. The robber barons of the bad old days and now the corporate dukes and other high royals…

Comment #49: nihilix  on  08/17  at  02:28 PM

Walmart has posted two straight years of lagging sales and the reason for that is the poor can no longer afford to go there and buy cheap, plastic crap.

I interpreted that a different way.

The fact of the matter is that Wal-Mart isn’t that cheap.  Like any other mass retailer, they offer steep discounts on an extremely limited number of products, but overcharge* on everything else.  Wal-Mart does this even more now that they’ve driven small town competition out of business.

Poor people never really could afford to shop there; they were fooled into thinking they were getting a good deal.  Now that people really need to watch how they spend their money, the jig is up.  The number one stated reason why people don’t want to shop at Wal-Mart anymore is that they think it’s too expensive.

*Which is particularly insidious considering how low quality Wal-Mart’s products are.  You might as well shop at a dollar store; you’ll get the same product for something close to a reasonable price.

Comment #50: keshmeshi  on  08/17  at  02:28 PM

This is what angered me the most about the anti-union rhetoric used in the run-up to the anti-union bill passing in WI.  The notion that public workers are no different than welfare recipients*.  They just sit around expecting the checks to roll in.  During one local radio show the guest pointed out that what is now called “cadillac insurance” used to be called “good insurance” and it was something one worked towards as a matter of course, not something too good for the average worker.

Of course like most rightwing rhetoric, in reality the opposite is true.  CEO and other VP’s who are not particularly good at their jobs (and who even put the entire company into jeopardy) still make enormous salaries.  The financial meltdown was absolutely not unforseeable but those too corrupt or stupid to see the writing on the wall alike are still getting giant bonus checks and sweet tax breaks.

* I have nothing against welfare recipients but the people making this argument clearly do.

Comment #51: carovee  on  08/17  at  02:40 PM

I’ve just realised there’s a business opportunity for a swift-thinking American there - start a business selling accurate rifles legally - as “snipery” as legally possible - along with maps to CEO houses and accompanying photographs of twenty or thirty of the most annoying of those CEOs.  Under no circumstances make any possible suggestion that the accompanying literature is anything other than an unrelated gift-with-purchase.

Oh, and when you strike it rich doing this, pay your taxes without complaining. Or a rival company will start up offering twenty one or thirty one photos…

Comment #52: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/17  at  02:46 PM

@Mighty Ponygirl (#42)

I’m not necessarily saying that $60,000 is an enormous sum of money (although I personally find it quite large), but even with the inconvenience of expensive housing it still makes you 180 times richer than your average person in the DRC. I just don’t know how appropriate it is to be using phrases like “feudalism,” when I look at the rest of the world. I view that type of behavior as someone with acne complaining to someone debilitated by terminal brain cancer about how hard it is for them to get a date - it just seems, wrong.

I tend to find the “where I live is expensive” argument pretty weak. For one, it ignores why places like New York tends to be expensive. You are being partially compensated for the expensive housing from both the productive benefits of agglomeration and the amenities you are provided. Frankly, it’s a lot nicer to live in New York City, than it is to live in Rapid Falls, South Dakota.  The argument also assumes that you are forced to live in an expensive area. For some people, their career choice may require that. But for the overwhelming majority, that’s not likely to be true. Very few jobs are so geographically specific that someone has to live in an expensive area. My guess is why seemingly upper-middle class people live in expensive places like NYC is either they enjoy the cities amenities or, as I find more likely, they have ties to the community and don’t want to uproot themselves from their friends, family, and culutre. But, ultimately, it is mostly a choice where you live, which is why I’m not entirely sympathetic to the expensive housing argument

Also, I think it’s an exaggeration to say you can’t necessarily live comfortably on $60,000 per year in America. I suppose that is true for some individuals (for example, those suffering from severe disabilities may have costly medical treatments and may not be able to enjoy life as much as others given any amount of income), but assuming someone is more or less fairly typical, $60,000 can provide a very sufficient lifestyle. A lot of families live relatively comfortably on much less (growing up my family was actually below the poverty line, and my lifestyle growing up wasn’t particularly bad).

Again, that is not to say that if you want more than $60,000 you are a bad or greedy person. I just think portraying someone making that income as barely scraping by or using terms like feudalism, aristocracy, oligarchy and what not to describe the American economic system are over the top, when there are people who actually do just barely scrap by day after day and live under systems that aren’t far from those descriptions. I think it diminishes their suffering, and exaggerates our own - and I think that’s wrong. I think we can fight certain flaws in our economic system and promote everyone’s mutual well-being, while still recognizing that, at the end of the day, we, as Americans, have it pretty damn well off.

I’m curious what you meant by envious lifestyle though.

@JThompson (#48).

Then they aren’t libertarians. They are just people who call themselves libertarians. People should be defined by what they believe, not what they say they are. How many racists actually claim they are tolerant? Do you believe them simply because they say they are? You more or less have to believe in voluntary unionism to be called a libertarian. If you reject unionism on moral grounds, then you most definitely are not a libertarian. Libertarianism is a theory of self-ownership and voluntary exchange. There is no way to rationalize the use or threat of force to stop voluntary collective action. It violates a fundamental tenet of libertarianism. What libertarians reject is government-supported unions. Things like mandating companies negotiate in “good faith” or forcing individuals to join a union, if the workforce is already unionized. As I said, some libertarians may not like unions (mostly right-libertarians), but they argue that if they were brought about by voluntary exchange and mutual consent, you cannot stop them. Also, every libertarian thinks you can fire them all, in principle. In practice, this can never happen though. As long as a unions demands are not extortive, it would be too costly for employers to hire and re-train an entire workforce. Most left-libertarians view unions as a balancing power to corrupt corporatism supported by government. No libertarian would argue firing cannons at them (unless they got violent). If someone actually supports busting voluntary unions - let alone with actual violence - then they aren’t a libertarian. They are more likely a conservative that just thinks libertarianism means pro-business, which it most definitely is not (it’s actually an anti-business philosophy). I will, however, admit that very few actual libertarians exist.

Comment #53: Ted H.  on  08/17  at  02:58 PM

How does the comment about CEOs demanding a higher salary compute for these people when the union employees are demanding higher salaries?  WTF?

Comment #54: Lexie  on  08/17  at  03:02 PM

Can we just permanently change the “No True Scotsman” fallacy to the “No True Libertarian” fallacy? Because I hardly ever see it used in any other context. Libertarians are apparently pretty much the same as unicorns (and about as useful).

Comment #55: Well, what?  on  08/17  at  03:18 PM

“Then they aren’t libertarians. They are just people who call themselves libertarians. People should be defined by what they believe, not what they say they are.”

...so, is there like a test or something? 

I don’t know whether or not any of the people I know who call themselves “Libertarian” would meet your No True Libertarian standard, but as far as I’m concerned they’re still libertarians whether you consider them pure enough or not…

Comment #56: MikeEss  on  08/17  at  03:25 PM

@Well, what #55

I’m also thinking “fiscally responsible conservative”, “deficit hawk”, etc. etc. It’s a pretty long list.

Comment #57: ArielNYC  on  08/17  at  03:29 PM

Phoenician, as much as I might have fantasies about such things, over the years I’ve lived through too many assassination attempts and assassination successes for my comfort.

Let’s leave the coded eliminationist suggestions to the Reichwing…

(I admit, BTW, that I have broken this rule myself.  But at least I feel guilty about it…)

Comment #58: MikeEss  on  08/17  at  03:30 PM

Ted H:

I tend to find the “where I live is expensive” argument pretty weak. For one, it ignores why places like New York tends to be expensive. You are being partially compensated for the expensive housing from both the productive benefits of agglomeration and the amenities you are provided.

Is fucking laughable. You’re like the relatives who were convinced that my broke-ass going to school in NYC was able to afford broadway shows three nights a week. So jealous! It must be so glamorous, going clubbing and seeing celebrities! When in fact I mostly found places that didn’t mind if I parked my ass in a chair for hours on end between my job and my classes, oh, and rearranging my class schedule so that I could keep my job. Celebrities: 1. I saw Meg Fucking Ryan when one of her atrocious rom-coms decided to shoot in Washington Square. Whoop-de-shit. And while it’s true, you get good public transit in NYC, this is true, but you still have to pay for it. As far as other amenities, I’m not sure what you’re talking about: pollution? overcrowding? bodegas? panhandlers? If you don’t work in an industry that absolutely requires you to live in NYC, the “amenities” of city life are pretty subjective and have everything to do with how much you like living in The City. New York City is expensive simply because of simple supply and demand. I can promise you the $10 you’ll pay for an egg salad sandwich in the village bodega is no better than the egg salad you can get for $3 in South Dakota.

Financial advisers suggest that you should not spend more than 1/4th of your monthly income on housing. A person making 60K a year, after taxes, takes home about $4000/month. 1/4 of that is $1000. You can’t get studio smaller than most walk-in closets for that money in Manhattan or anywhere near the city in the outer boroughs.

I’m not going to answer your “envious lifestyle” question as it’s facile and makes me question your reading skills.

Comment #59: Mighty Ponygirl  on  08/17  at  03:32 PM

Christians also trot out the fallacy quite a bit.

Comment #60: Blitzgal  on  08/17  at  03:32 PM

Libertarian is as libertarian does. Libertarians are the interest group currently engaging in anti-union agitation and class resentment against workers in service of right wing interest groups.

Also, CEOs and everyone else tend to ask for higher salaries as a condition of working in areas with a higher cost of living.

“You’re wealthier than they are in the Congo” isn’t an argument. It’s a petulant whine that, “you should just be thankful we allow you to live at all.”

Comment #61: Tyro  on  08/17  at  03:39 PM

@#22: “I’ve always felt that it was way more of the first (people thinking, “When I get rich I don’t want to pay taxes!”) than the second (people actively screwing over their fellow workers for breadcrumbs) because the second is just so movie-villain-sinister.  I think people are too stupid & deluded that the first reason HAS to be driving the trolls.  It’s the same idea behind how the GOP gets people to vote against their own economic interests.”

But it’s also ideological. Many people who should be smart enough to know better have a tendency to throw in their lot with the Rich because that puts them “on the winning side.” Even if they personally get nothing out of it.

Comment #62: John D.  on  08/17  at  03:50 PM

$60,000 is more than twice the median income in the United States.  A person making $60,000 a year in New York should do what most adults making the median income ($25,000) in the rest of the country do:  cohabitate.

Comment #63: keshmeshi  on  08/17  at  03:51 PM

“You’re wealthier than they are in the Congo” isn’t an argument. It’s a petulant whine that, “you should just be thankful we allow you to live at all.”

It’s right up there with “women in Africa have their genitals mutilated!  Why are you complaining about the treatment of women in America!”  As though we’re all supposed to be content that our lives aren’t as crappy as they could possibly be. 

Not to mention, not moving to somewhere with a lower cost of living is not always a lifestyle choice.  Moving takes money and a job in the new location.  Moving away from your support system of family, friends, and neighbors is not just a personal preference—it’s a serious sacrifice for many people, because it’s not like the social safety net is all that great.  People who can freely choose where to live based on their preferences for low cost of living v. exciting glamorous city life are already pretty high up the socioeconomic ladder. 

Comment #64: Kit-Kat  on  08/17  at  03:55 PM

If Verizon wants to have employees working for them in New York, then they had better damn well pay their employees enough to live in New York.

Comment #65: Alyson Miers  on  08/17  at  03:55 PM

There’s really only one term for people who believe, as a matter of ideology, that a handful of people deserve to own everything and the rest of us should living lives of endless work and squalor, with perhaps a slender class of people who get paid pretty handsomely to protect the interests of those who own everything: feudalists.

How about plutocrats?

Comment #66: Dolbia  on  08/17  at  03:57 PM

And, for the record, I don’t have a problem with Verizon workers striking.  Among other things, I fucking loathe Verizon due to having to deal with their local “service” when I lived in the city.  But New Yorkers absolutely can get by on $60k a year.  I make $31k a year in a city not all that much cheaper than New York, and I live pretty damn well.

Additionally, those social democracies that American liberals love so much are *extremely* expensive to live in.  You can’t have get a one-bedroom apartment in Copenhagen on a middle class salary, not without government subsidies.  Part of creating a sustainable and fair tax code, economy, and society is having reasonable expectations.  Crying poverty on $60k/year in this country isn’t reasonable, no matter what city you’re living in.

Comment #67: keshmeshi  on  08/17  at  03:57 PM

Comment #63: keshmeshi

You do know that many of these workers already live with others—often their spouses and children?  Making $60,000 as a young single person is one thing; making it as a person with a family to support is another.

Comment #68: Kit-Kat  on  08/17  at  03:58 PM

Also, Keshmeshi—you simply can’t cohabitate with some of these apartments. $2k for a 10 x 10 space (that includes the bathtub/shower space) is barely enough space for one human being to live in, much less 2.

Comment #69: Mighty Ponygirl  on  08/17  at  04:09 PM

I think the idea that MikeEss put so well in #4 is not quite right.

I suppose a few may be delusional enough to think they’ll be millionaires one day, but I don’t think it’s many.

I suppose a few may be cravenly seeking pats on the head and tiny raises, but I don’t think it’s many.

I used to think that.  The two options listed seemed to cover the major possibilities.

But then I got into an argument with a conservative friend on the topic of unions.  He conceded that unions didn’t hurt business, that the myths about impossible to fire union employees were myths, etc, but insisted that unions were wrong.  Ultimately I asked him just what, exactly, was it that he object to about unions since he’d basically accepted that they were good for employees and didn’t harm employers.

His answer was that unions violated the right and proper order of things.  In the employer/employee relationship the employer is supposed to have all the power and the employee isn’t supposed to have any.

Essentially he’d internalized the aristocratic view of the world.  As long as someone was lower on the social hierarchy than he was, then he was relatively satisfied.  He viewed attempts to extend liberties to those who didn’t have them as an attack on his own position in the world, if the people below him got to his level (or, worse, above his level), than that meant he was losing.

So I really don’t think it’s that the conservatives think they’ll be rich one day, much more horrifyingly they simply think that it is right and proper for the universe to be divided into a strict social hierarchy and they’re happy being below their betters, just as long as they’ve got someone to look down on.

Comment #70: sotonohito  on  08/17  at  04:12 PM

I just don’t know how appropriate it is to be using phrases like “feudalism,” when I look at the rest of the world. I view that type of behavior as someone with acne complaining to someone debilitated by terminal brain cancer about how hard it is for them to get a date - it just seems, wrong.

It’s not that rare that a severe — even terminal — case of skin cancer starts out with something that looks like a not very large mole.  The conditions which beset “the rest of the world” — by which I assume you mean the third world, since it doesn’t sound like you’re talking about Germany or France — are the ones we will have to deal with, dude, unless somebody somewhere throws a major and effectual snit-fit, and such snit-fits are not the métier of the executive class.  So just stick around and keep spouting, and we’ll see where you end up, unless you’re getting paid for your trolling — more than $60,000 a year.

(Incidentally, what does any of this have to do with dating?  Are you dragging in the dating stuff b/c this is a site which often address issues which actually are connected with dating?  If so, let me tell you, the effort shows.)

Comment #71: bekabot  on  08/17  at  04:14 PM

But New Yorkers absolutely can get by on $60k a year.  I make $31k a year in a city not all that much cheaper than New York, and I live pretty damn well.

NYC at $60k per year?  You’ll need to either land a rent controlled or rent stabilized apartment or live in a distant part of Brooklyn or Queens,* or live in the South Bronx, or live on Staten Island.

Alternately you can pack 3 or 4 of your best friends into a 10x10 space in a not so fashionable part of Manhattan.

I love NYC, but you need to be an associate at a large law firm or work at Goldman Sachs to really take full advantage of living there.

* Think Ocean Hill, because Bed-Stuy isn’t cheap anymore.  Maybe Sheepshead Bay, but plan to get a car because there is no nearby subway.

Comment #72: Richard Goblin  on  08/17  at  04:25 PM

I suppose a few may be delusional enough to think they’ll be millionaires one day, but I don’t think it’s many.

Actually, it is.

The thing is that Americans are trained from birth that their natural course is to work hard and be smart and they’ll be fabulously wealthy eventually. A friend’s dad is constantly “on the make” for the next project that will make him millions (he’s at least a sympathizer if not a full-on teabagger). He was ... no joke… pumping my husband for information on disc golf because he was convinced he could make a ton of money on it somehow. We suggested he sell the pot to the disc golfers in the parking lot of the course, but he didn’t think that was funny.

Comment #73: Mighty Ponygirl  on  08/17  at  04:31 PM

His answer was that unions violated the right and proper order of things.  In the employer/employee relationship the employer is supposed to have all the power and the employee isn’t supposed to have any.

There is that.  There is also this view anti-union people I talk to have: unions stifle their ability to negotiate with their employer.  These people tend to fear that unions protect seniority at the expense of merit.  It’s not that they think they will get rich, its that the unions will prevent their merit and hard work from being recognized and thus prevent them from rising through the ranks as fast as they should.

It’s weaker version of the “I’ll be rich someday” argument.  And I’m sure they even believe it - well, right up until their employer fires all of the senior people who make more money simply because they make more money than junior people, so-called “merit” be damned.

Comment #74: Richard Goblin  on  08/17  at  04:34 PM

I just don’t know how appropriate it is to be using phrases like “feudalism,” when I look at the rest of the world.

Feudalism is the institutionalization of wealth unevenly distributed. As others have said, but-look-over-there isn’t an argument.

Comment #75: pseudonymous in nc  on  08/17  at  04:37 PM

Ted H:

It’s entirely reasonable, if you look at the way company towns were run. Keeping someone on a credit leash is making them a de facto serf. Granted the pyramid is somewhat flatter in modern times, but the essential aspect of machine politics + corporate financial domination is almost exactly analogous to the way feudalism worked.

The worst part about feudalism, though, is that it worked, at least if you define “working” as a stable political system. It essentially destroyed European civilization until the merchant classes rediscovered the value of money, which eventually became another case of “meet the new boss, same as the old boss”. Marx was wrong about a lot when it came to economics, but he had a pretty good handle on history, even if he did overemphasize the Hegelian dialectic to a fairly ridiculous degree.

Comment #76: BrianX  on  08/17  at  05:12 PM

$60,000 is more than twice the median income in the United States.  A person making $60,000 a year in New York should do what most adults making the median income ($25,000) in the rest of the country do:  cohabitate.

Just…Why? This “tighten your purse strings” attitude you have, what’s the reason? Just because a person can and have lived on less doesn’t mean they have too. Verizon as a company isn’t scraping by on marginal profits. Why shouldn’t they put a little of that into their employee’s paychecks?

Comment #77: scrumby  on  08/17  at  05:21 PM

There’s also the comments that blame the lack of profit in the wired segment of the business…

...Except that wired segment carries messages to and from the wireless towers, and there’s no reason for it to be sliding back since it could have been built into a faster, clearer, cheaper broadband system.

But Verizon isn’t doing that.  And that sure the fuck isn’t the lineman’s fault.

It’s probably the CEO’s fault.

But what risk does the CEO take that a segment of their business is tanking?  The answer is, of course: None.

Comment #78: Crissa  on  08/17  at  05:24 PM

The who takes the risk one kills me. They have this notion of the classic small business that’s like when my dad started his business 50 years ago - he had himself, one machine and a loan to pay off. That’s risk.

I don’t even think they get that far.  Half the people spouting these lines don’t even understand how you’d use a loan to make profits.  They’re all about ‘you can’t spend your way out of debt’ as if you had to have a successful business before you take business loan!

Comment #79: Crissa  on  08/17  at  05:30 PM

Comment #77: scrumby

Exactly.  I don’t understand this kind of reaction.  If your company is doing well enough to pay its CEO millions, why shouldn’t it pay its workers a decent wage?  American corporations are doing quite well for themselves; in fact, they’re sitting on piles of profit and not hiring new workers.  They really can’t afford to pay above-subsistence level wages?  We should all just suck it up and be glad we have indoor plumbing?

Comment #80: Kit-Kat  on  08/17  at  05:37 PM

@ scrumby, #77. Word. Is this just another take on “poverty is ennobling”? Why are people so eager to see others just barely getting by? I’m just barely getting by, and it sucks. A lot, sometimes. Less, at other times, but always at some level it totally sucks. Day to day, sure, I have enough food and a roof over my head, and even extras like an occasional new thing or a meal out. But even at the very best of times, I am still perpetually terrified of getting sick, because that would bankrupt me. Instantly. No matter how many roommates I have or how many lattes I forego.

People seem to forget that living on the edge means there is an edge, and you can fall off it, because you’re not so damned special as you might think. Ahem.

Comment #81: Well, what?  on  08/17  at  05:39 PM

When you see $60K, are they funding their own retirement?  Healthcare?  Do they have required attire, attendance, driving or overtime?

A number is just a number.  But if you’re required to live in a city limits of a town which food prices or housing prices are twice the national average, then are you really ‘rich’?  If you’re required to buy suits and ties - like lawyers are - are you really rich if you’re putting a large portion of your paycheck back into these tools of your trade?

I remember one temp job where they wanted me to make copies for a law office - for $10 an hour, (for two weeks a month, too, but they didn’t say that) they wanted business-formal attire.  I tried to make up what I could from the second-hand shops, but they wouldn’t let me change my shoes at the office.  I had to commute in whatever crappy heeled pumps would match my outfit, and I had to pay for all this on $10 an hour?  The outfit they wanted me to wear cost more than a week’s wages.  There was no way that it was worth it for me.

Comment #82: Crissa  on  08/17  at  05:47 PM

if you groused on Twitter that the Koch brothers are supporting a return to droit du seigneur for CEOs with regards to their male employees’ spouses,

Isn’t “droit du seigneur” a relatively decent description of what John Ensign did?

Comment #83: jadehawk  on  08/17  at  05:49 PM

Phoenician, as much as I might have fantasies about such things, over the years I’ve lived through too many assassination attempts and assassination successes for my comfort.

Let’s leave the coded eliminationist suggestions to the Reichwing…

“Coded”?

Historically, there is only one way to deal with an embedded aristocracy stifling a nation.  Olver Cromwell in England, the French Revolution, the Bolsheviks in Russia.

Or rather, a non-democratic nation.  I think the US is in a race now - is it still democratic enough to resolve the situation “peacefully” despite the objections of the rich and powerful, or have you turned de facto oligarchial enough so that the only way to change is violent?  You history gave us teh New Deal as an example of the first, and (for the South) the Civil War for the latter.

Comment #84: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/17  at  06:05 PM

I am sympathetic to your points.  In fact, I applaud you for taking up this topic, and supporting workers’ rights so persuasively.

However, both “feudalism” and “droit du seigneur” are myths told about the Middle Ages without real form to them.  The droit du seigneur never happened, as has been demonstrated by Alain Boureau (see The Lord’s First Night: The Myth of the Droit de Cuissage, translated by Lydia G. Cochrane, University of Chicago Press, 1998).  Boureau’s argument has been applauded by the historical community, but his theories also appear in such obscure places as Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droit_du_seigneur.

The problems with “feudalism” as a term and a historical concept has been rejected by historians since the massively influential article by Elizabeth A.R. Brown published ‘The Tyranny of a Construct: Feudalism and Historians of Medieval Europe’, American Historical Review, 79 (1974), pp. 1063–8.  (You guessed it: the merits of Brown’s argument have also gone mainstream, and are available in Wikipedia, as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feudalism)  .

But “Feudalism” or “Feudal Society” is not even thought of as working in the way that you suggest here.  In fact, the model of society you describe is actually a slave-owning society…in which a small few actually do own most of the property (something “feudal lords” didn’t do) and the rest of the society eke out a living.  I suggest that you look to Ancient Rome for a more fitting parallel—and one that makes your points even more palpable!

Comment #85: kirsa14  on  08/17  at  06:41 PM

But kirsa14, the right is already enamored with such myths as the free market and trickle-down economics. If their desired social system is equally mythical how does that change anything?

Comment #86: scrumby  on  08/17  at  07:02 PM

kirsa:

That droit du seigneur is a myth is, I think, common knowledge at this point. But I’m thinking the “feudalism didn’t exist” thing is a minority position, and possibly even incoherent as feudalism basically is defined as the political system of Europe during the Middle Ages.

At the end of the day, the ultimate authority in Europe was the Pope, making all those city-states and whatnot essentially a rather diffuse absolute theocracy.

Comment #87: BrianX  on  08/17  at  07:33 PM

Anyone else noticed a ballooning sector of white collar skeeze jobs? I know a few friends who’ve finally found employment as for-pay college admissions officers or copy editing for spam sites. I can’t really be pissed at them for it because work is work but damn, whatever happened to corpse washing?

I estimate marketing scams of various sorts to be at least 10% of our GDP at this point.  Plenty of jobs out there with “unlimited earning potential” if you are a skilled bullshit artist.

Comment #88: DonnaDiva  on  08/17  at  08:07 PM

“The workers making $60K accepted it while CEO’s demanded more, but how does the CEO’s wage negatively affect the $60K guy?”

Because if the CEO were making less, the 60K guy could be making 100 or maybe 150K. And all with out dipping into that holy of holies, the company profits.

I really don’t get this attitude. The more all of the employees make, the happy (and more spendy) employees get. And there’s not a damn thing wrong with paying all employees from the janitor to the CEO a ‘way beyond’ living wage. Really there isn’t.

Comment #89: StarStorm  on  08/17  at  08:16 PM

Yeah, BrianX?  Um, no. The “feudalism didn’t exist” think is pretty much the accepted view. Not a minority thing at all. Medieval historians may use terms like ‘feudal relationships’ but it’s only a minority who don’t agree that these relationships and how they worked varied greatly over time and place.  Although Adrian’s comment incorrectly conflates manorialism with feudalism, when the accepted view is that feudal relationships were between people who were of the same general social group, i.e., the people who held the lands and fought (nobility and royalty, pretty much), he’s right about the ideas of reciprocal obligation and duty.

Those things are clearly absent from many of the wealthy and their visions of their own social obligations.

I really do wish otherwise smart people would stop saying stupid things about the Middle Ages. It’s not like there aren’t enough of us PhD medievalists here on the interwebs to do a simple fact check.

Comment #90: Another Damned Medievalist  on  08/17  at  09:04 PM

With regards to MikeEss’ choices in #4. I agree with Karmakin. A lot of people would much rather do worse themselved than let an ‘undeserving’ person do ok. For example, helping people whose mortgages are underwater would not only help them but the whole economy, still our society has decided that would reward someone who made a mistake and we can’t have that (although it seems to be ok for corporations and the rich). We live in a punitive society.

Comment #91: JohnL  on  08/17  at  09:42 PM

Wow, Ted H. So much rhetorical sleight-of-hand, so little time.

“richest people in the world” - if the Verizon employees lived and worked somewhere in the developing world where $60K will keep you in luxury for a natural lifetime, or if anyone were claiming that nobody suffers more than these employees, you might have a point. They’re not, so you don’t. Of course, the nice thing about the race-to-the-bottom fallacy is that you can always find someone worse off to bludgeon the speaker with. (“Oh, you work 80-hour weeks picking strawberries for $6 an hour with no benefits? Whiner. There are places in the world where people make $6 a WEEK.”) It also neatly avoids the other half of the equation - how much the CEO is getting paid - as if it’s perfectly acceptable to judge the workers’ salary, but not the boss’s salary, relative to everyone else.

“where you live doesn’t have to be expensive” - actually, the reason upper middle class people live in places like NYC is that they can fucking afford them because they’re upper middle class. Also, because if you want an upper middle class type of job, those tend to be more plentiful in large urban areas than in small rural ones. Particularly if your upper middle class job, like many, is in an industry concentrated in particular geographic areas.

“$60,000 is above average” - keshmeshi screws this up too. I’m not sure if this is a single boho thing, where people forget that ‘what I myself make and then blow on Netflix and sushi with my roommate’ is not necessarily how everybody lives (some people, if you can believe it, have families to support).
how curious that you don’t mention which median. Median income for a single worker? In the US, while it varies by state, median household income is roughly $50K, and in New York state it’s about $55K. The Verizon workers are richer than average how?

Comment #92: mythago  on  08/17  at  09:42 PM

Two things I’d like to point out:

1) The idea of modern conservative thought really being about aristocracy isn’t new. See this—> http://polaris.gseis.ucla.edu/pagre/conservatism.html for a great discussion of how the return to aristocracy (which I take to include the return of the peasant class) is inherent in American Conservatism.

2) So much of what the right wing cultivates, indeed thrives on, is the fear that someone, somewhere, is getting something they don’t deserve. This does go back to their authoritarian love of aristocracy: the CEO as a representative of the modern aristocratic class deserves to make some 500x what the janitor makes, but the janitor, as a modern serf, is lucky to have a job, no matter how meager the wage. It always comes down to *I* deserve what I get (good wage, health care, or abortion rights) *you* are lucky I don’t spit on you and call you names.

Comment #93: Vir Modestus  on  08/17  at  09:44 PM

I still prefer “fascism” because it is more modern and instead of kings and castles oppressing the people, we have CEOs and corporations doing it.  Plus the current system of oppression is much more complicated and involves more people.  But both terms are similar in the sense that they imply that there is a more devious right-wing plot in the works that goes radically beyond rational thought.

Comment #94: Albert Cirrus  on  08/17  at  10:24 PM

I live in the northeast and I make $57,000 a year, so pretty close to this $60,000 being talked about. I’m 46 and a widower. My take home pay after taxes is about $2700. (I saw $4000 as the take home for $60,000 in one of the comments above, not sure how they would get that much. Must be withholding)?  and Here are my bills. Rent in a small one bedroom for me and my two cats: $845. (1 hour west of Boston in a small town). I could not find cheaper. Electric: $80 in the summer, $120 in the winter. Cable and Internet: $150. Cell phone: $90. Food (including household goods and cleaning supplies): Who knows? Maybe $400 a month? $500? This one probably trips up my budget more than any other cost.  I went shopping the other day at Hannaford, got 2 bags full and spent $100. And I was trying to be very cheap!!Store brands, no meat, etc. My commute is 28 miles a day, gas costs me about $150 a month. (Ford focus, 27 MPG). Prescriptions, over the counter medicine, etc: $50. Cat litter and food: $100.

Car payment on that Ford Focus: $345. (for two more years. I’m sure the car will die about the time the payments are over).  Car insurance and tenants insurance: $$70. Okay I’m up to about $2300 already, using $400 for food and $100 for electric. So all of these are the fixed bills, more or less. Now add in doctor co-pays, clothing, car repairs, oil changes, tolls and parking. Sometimes all of this takes me over my $2700. When that happens things go on credit. Such as the $2000 it cost me at the vet to save one of my cats. Oh yeah, I didn’t even add in normal vet bills. (My late spouse for 6 years owned the cats. He died unexpectedly and I inherited cats).  Now we have credit card payments to add into the mix of bills.  I never am able to save a dime. Oh, I had to go for a medical test last November. Then I got a bill for my $500 yearly deductible. Crap.

How the heck anyone lives on less than I make as a single person is beyond me. And I live in a small town in the Northeast, not anywhere close to NY. I try very hard to keep my food bill down. I shop for store brands, bargains, etc. Let’s see, what are my unnecessary bills in all this? Perhaps cable and internet. That’s the only luxury I allow myself, the ability to read blogs and watch HGTV every night.  Maybe the cell phone? But it’s the only phone I have, so I need it. I could kill the cats, but they are the only thing I got from my partner and they keep me company. I could try to find a roommate, but at $845 for a small one bedroom, I wouldn’t save that much sharing a two bedroom, which run about $1200 to $1800 around here.  And how many roommates would want to live with a 46 year old with 2 cats? I could try harder to save more money on food and cleaning supplies. I’ve been shopping at the dollar store for cleaning stuff and toiletries to save money.

I’d love to know how that person above lived in NYC for $31,000 a year. If you read this can you lay out all your bills? I’m doing something wrong. Some of my costs I’ve mentioned above would go up significantly in NY. My car and tenants insurance above of $70 a month? See what that would cost in NYC, even way out in the suburbs. Yes, you can live without a car in the city, but you then have to add in public transit costs.

Lastly, what did I leave out in all of the above? (other than cable and internet). Anything fun! I didn’t include costs for eating out, vacations, reading, music, attractions, alcohol. Notice there is no room in my budget for any of these things. So I have no fun stuff and no savings. And I make more than many?most? people? I really am doing something wrong.

Comment #95: acoolerclimate  on  08/17  at  11:16 PM

Just for the record (and I’m not a medievalist but I was a cultural studies major)- while droit du seigneur may be a myth, that sort of class system and oppression leaves the door wide open for sexual assault on women of a lower class. I would imagine it wasn’t quite as widespread as slave owners raping/impregnating slaves in this country, but men with that kind of power tend to take advantage of it routinely. Given the rape culture we still see today, droit de seigneur is likely an exaggeration but not a complete fabrication. (And please, no one trot out chivalry. We all know that was for women of a certain class that behaved “properly”, because that’s how it always works in a patriarchy.)

Comment #96: Liz212  on  08/18  at  01:19 AM

Interesting thing about those who claim CEOs take risks thus deserve ridiculous rewards is that not only are they ignorant of their own ideology (it’s entrepreneurs not CEOs who take risks according to the Capitalist Church), but they are undermining their own ideology - if the fattest worker (the CEO) deserves a ‘risk reward’ then so do all the workers.

After all a company like Verizon is owned by the shareholders, so whatever conventional risk there is, belongs to the shareholders (although ‘limited liability’ keeps the risk kind of low). The CEO of Verizon is merely a worker with a union that is very, very good at PR. Many CEOs have been entrepreneurs in the past, or may be still if they own the company. But not the CEO of Verizon, or indeed most CEOs.

As to workers taking risks when they select a company to work for - sure they do. Their risk is limited (where have I heard that word before? Ah yes, shareholders have limited liability) to losing their job, not getting that bonus they were promised, or seeing their salary slowly eroded over the years,. but it’s still a risk. And without their contribution no company can get anywhere (except aberrations such as holders but not creators of intellectual property rights), so why are they not entitled to a share of the profits when the fattest worker in the canteen qualifies ?

Comment #97: veryz  on  08/18  at  02:59 AM

acoolerclimate, I hear you.  I am single, and last year I made about $60K.  I pay 1K for housing (I include my insurance in my house payment) each month, $400/month for gas for the car, $86/month for electric, no car payment, $100/insurance for the car, $400/month for health insurance (cheapest I could find!  With an insurance broker!), my insurance doesn’t pay for my thyroid condition, so every few months I have to pay my blood tests out of pocket, which is about $300, as well as the specialist appointment, which is $65, and neither of those go toward my deductible, and I haven’t even gotten to my food costs (I spend anywhere between $75-$100 on food per week, and I am losing weight due to not eating enough, which isn’t healthy, given my thyroid condition) or what I pay for my dog.  I’m responsible for my own retirement, so I put $80/month into a mutual fund and a Roth IRA.  I put $25/month into a savings account which I had to plunder recently due to an unexpected bill coming in.

I work on commission, so I can’t be certain what my pay check will be on any given payday, so there are times when I will get a tiny check ($800 for the last one.  Wheeee!) or a big check.  It all depends when the clients decide to pay me.

I live in Delaware.  People are moving out of NYC, NJ, Washington DC, and Philadelphia to live in my state because it is cheaper than living in those areas and you can still commute to those cities in a “reasonable” amount of time by train or car. 

Tell me how making 60K means I live well.  I am scared to death my car will die and I will be forced to add a car payment to my list of bills.

Comment #98: speedbudget  on  08/18  at  08:17 AM

How could I forget student loan payment?  $300/month.

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Comment #100: then2011  on  08/18  at  10:00 AM

I live in Connecticut, I am supporting myself and my 2 kids on $44K a year. The only reason I can do this is because I’m renting a house that is completely paid for from my sister and brother-in-law for a below market rent. Before I sold my house, just about half of my take-home pay went for the mortgage, homeowner’s insurance and property taxes. This was when I was going through a divorce - my ex was supposed to be paying half of that, but he got laid off.

Comment #101: maurinsky  on  08/18  at  10:08 AM

Richard @74

Yeah, a lot of people forget or don’t realize that “senority” applies not just to years worked but what level your position is.  My employer (County Library) just eliminated several positions, including my entire classification mostly because it was the only higher paid classification that had few positions vacant at the time, so it would save them the most money.  (They also eliminated a few classifications higher than us that had only a few people in them, and then a few random positions in various classifications.)

People can certainly argue that my being able to keep my job (or rather, move into a lower paid one) while someone else in a more junior position loses theirs is based on just the time I put in and not merit, but since I was hired into that more senior position (and passed probation) for a reason, I would argue it’s quite a bit of both.

Also, I heart unions.  Mine is the reason why I am still working full time instead of being moved into a part-time position, which is what my employer first claimed was going to happen.  My dad’s is the reason I am alive, as there is no way my parents could have afforded my medical care when I was an infant without the health care that came with his job.

Comment #102: jennygadget  on  08/18  at  10:57 AM

One of the ways people make do with less money is going without health insurance. (Our family insurance, unsubsidized in the individual market, is about $20K a year.) Of course then something happens and they lose everything, and the rest of us pay the freight.

Comment #103: paul  on  08/18  at  11:17 AM

Smoke and mirrors, Ted H., smoke and mirrors.

For purposes of the discussion, the relevant salary comparison is between the CEO and the employee, not between the employee and people in poorer countries.  Yes, first-world countries are highly privileged in comparison to others in the world, but that’s not the discussion here.

Also, $60k may seem like a nice target to shoot at and may sound like a pretty good income to some, but, again, the concern is the differential between that number and the CEO’s salary, not the number in isolation.  Do you really think it a persuasive argument for “your side” to debate the minimum amount a person could make as a living wage?  Sounds like a scold to me.  Telling workers that they “should” be able to live on that amount if only they moved away?  If they moved away, the commute would probably not work out too well.

The point is—what is the valid justification for CEOs (administrators) making exponentially more than employees (those carrying on production)?  I think the ratio shows a broken system.  Either that or capitalism at work.  Hi, Mr. Dickens, want to write a story?

Comment #104: blondie  on  08/18  at  11:37 AM

@blondie: Yep. Isn’t it odd that no one tut-tuts at CEOs, pointing out that they could live palatially on a mere 1-2 million a year, rather than tens of millions?

Comment #105: paul  on  08/18  at  12:07 PM

acoolerclimate, thanks for laying all that out. not to derail too much, but in our society, we’re so often taught that talking about money is somehow impolite, but as all the equal pay discussion has revealed, if coworkers talked to each other about how much they make, we’d all be in a better position to recognize discrimination and try to negotiate for better pay, etc. it is also frankly a little comforting to see others in a similar position—i.e., “good” job, doing everything “right”, just trying to get by and still living in fear of major car repairs.

Comment #106: chareth cutestory  on  08/18  at  01:33 PM

Liz212:

Oh, no doubt that sort of sexual abuse was common. But I think droit du seigneur is generally understood as either a common custom or a legal construct. Now I could see a lord tossing it off as an ad hoc excuse to an angry husband (if he bothered to talk to him rather than kill him), but that’s not the same as asserting that it was an established tradition. More likely the lord simply took whatever women he fancied, whether they wanted to or not, likely in spite of the law (such as it existed) rather than because of it.

Comment #107: BrianX  on  08/19  at  03:30 AM

John Stewart had a great piece last night on this subject of the rich being society’s benefactors and mere workers being mere hangers on.

Watch.

Comment #108: canoodler  on  08/19  at  04:00 PM
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