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Next entry: Food plate and not pyramid Previous entry: There is no one reaction to harassment

Time to retire the word “libertarian”

Slightly old-ish news, but worth talking about: Rand Paul, who calls himself a "libertarian", has revealed that he's more inclined to be the new Joe McCarthy, going on to Sean Hannity's show and saying this:

I’m not for profiling people on the color of their skin, or on their religion, but I would take into account where they’ve been traveling and perhaps, you might have to indirectly take into account whether or not they’ve been going to radical political speeches by religious leaders. It wouldn’t be that they are Islamic. But if someone is attending speeches from someone who is promoting the violent overthrow of our government, that’s really an offense that we should be going after — they should be deported or put in prison.

Paul's getting a lot of attention for blocking the Patriot Act, but we can't judge him on this alone.  He's not for civil liberties.

However, aside from his admirable stance on the Patriot Act, Paul’s record shows he’s hardly the paragon of civil liberties he claims to be, but rather is “indistinguishablefrom the rest of the GOP on national security issues,” noted The American Prospect’s Adam Serwer last year. He’s said he will “always fight” to keep GITMO open; has said “[f]oreign terrorists do not deserve the protections of our Constitution;” and has never taken a strong public stance against torture, staying silent most recently after the killing of Osama bin Laden.

Paul Krugman responded by saying this:

He’s not unusual. There are genuine libertarians out there. But political figures who talk a lot about liberty and freedom invariably turn out to mean the freedom to not pay taxes and discriminate based on race; freedom to hold different ideas and express them, not so much.

I'm somewhat sick of the "genuine libertarians" thing, by the way.  It's about as meaningful as saying, "There are genuine communists out there."  Technically true, pragmatically meaningless.  "Genuine libertarians" are, in my experience, like "whole cloth pro-lifers", the ones who supposedly are in it because they really are pro-life and also oppose war, the death penalty, eating meat, etc., and that it's not about sex and gender for them.  You hear about them---occasionally someone says they've met one---but they are so few on the ground that you can reasonably say that people who consider their number one issue to be the government concealing space aliens from us constitute a more substantial voting bloc.  Most people who identify as libertarian are golf pants--wearing Republican weenies who want you to think they're cooler than the average golf pants-wearing Republican weenie because they like Pearl Jam.  

Anyway, all this was totally predictable, if you believe that women are full human beings who deserve full human rights.  Those of us who take that belief seriously have been pointing out since the get-go that many to most "libertarians" do not support abortion rights, which automatically puts them in opposition to basic human rights.  Rand Paul is a particularly egregious misogynist; he has literally claimed that the right to own a specific kind of lightbulb matters more than the right of a woman to control her fertility, and he did so on the floor of the Senate. Just in case you didn't get the memo, Paul also claimed that his right to avoid flushing the toilet twice when he takes a giant shit is more important than your ability to choose when you have children.  For those of us who take women's claim to be full human beings seriously, this sort of thing is all you need to know about how libertarian "libertarians" are.  

The reason this isn't as obvious to the punditry at large as it is to we feminists who get shoved off in a corner and treated like the ladies' auxiliary is that men still dominate political discourse in this country, and so the facetious claim that libertarians "get" to oppose women's rights because they think abortion is "murder" is taken seriously.  And the reason is that even pro-choice liberal men are often suspectible to the underlying assumption of the "life at conception" argument, which is that it's men and not women who make babies.  Said men disagree intellectually, but emotionally, the belief that men make babies by ejaculating and that the nine months of bodily effort and substantial amount of nutrients and calories expended by women is just so much secretarial work.  (This is, incidentally, why you'll see many thoughtful men get more vehemently pro-choice if their partners give birth; actually witnessing exactly who put the work into making a baby makes the anti-abortion argument seem pathetic and weird if you're a thoughtful feminist.) And so they give the libertarians a pass on their blather about how killing a brainless fetus is a major crime, one perhaps on the level of forcing the delicate hand of Rand Paul to touch the toilet handle twice.  

Of course, if you abandon all emotional investment in patriarchal traditions that give men more biological credit than is observable in nature for baby-making, what is immediately clear is that anti-choice "libertarians" are basically just guys who want rich white guys to have even more power than they do now, and see the government's main role as shoring up that power instead of limiting it.  Everything else that comes pouring out of their mouths after that, including support for a new McCarthyism, is not a surprise.

And on the topic of why we should abandon the word "libertarian" altogether, I give you the latest Bloggingheads with myself in it, and my discourse partner being Michael Doughtery:

Michael, at one point, suggested my views on sexual and personal liberty---I'm all for it, and think that the best way to maximize human happiness is letting consentingn adults make their own decisions about how to fuck and how to order their personal relationships---are "liberatarian".  I don't blame him for using this word; it's out there, and I get why people use it.  But it's an empty word, and it really should be retired.  The word for my beliefs is "liberal" or "progressive".  Or, if you like, "socially liberal".  Liberalism, at its core, is about maximizing freedom, but in a substantive and not glib way like so-called libertarianism is.  We believe in civil liberties, but also other freedoms, such as the "freedom froms" that FDR spoke of: freedom from want, freedom from fear.  Thus, regulating business and supporting labor maximize freedom for the most number of people.  We consider the freedom to have a life outside of work for the working class to be more important than the freedom of the rich to make another buck, for instance. Using "libertarian" to mean "pro-freedom" is misleading; under a libertarian system, the vast majority of people live lives under the corporate bootheel and are not free people at all.  

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 08:21 AM • (198) Comments

Krugman is awesome.  And we might as well retire the term “conservative,” too, because today’s party is about as conservative as I am an emu.

Comment #1: Blitzgal  on  06/02  at  09:59 AM

“But if someone is attending speeches from someone who is promoting the violent overthrow of our government, that’s really an offense that we should be going after — they should be deported or put in prison.”

Does Paul apply this same rule to home grown domestic terrorists? The thousands of “militia” members who daily advocate violent overthrow of the U.S. government would benefit from some major time in prison, but I doubt if he’s including those “patriots” in his little homily.

“Under a libertarian system, the vast majority of people live lives under the corporate bootheel and are not free people at all.”

Isn’t that just how their Goddess Ayn Rand wanted it? Everyone who isn’t rich is supposed to live under the boots of the more wealthy and therefore more deserving people.

Comment #2: serious bette  on  06/02  at  10:04 AM

Blitzgal: what do we call the wingnuts instead? I like “subversive” but don’t think it will catch on. (And yeah, I think “libertarian” would be a bad description for sensible sexual mores even if the word still meant something, simply because sex should generally be a collaborative project, and turning it into an individualist one sets up a framework that just begs for trouble.)

Comment #3: paul  on  06/02  at  10:07 AM

Wow, elected politician lies about his political classification, NEWS AT 11!

The cliché is “Film at 11.”

Comment #4: Xecklothxayyquou Gilchrist  on  06/02  at  10:11 AM

The problem with freedom is so many people want it in areas they shouldn’t have it, while those who truly have earned freedom are too often limited in how they can use it.

Freedom to choose between a BMW or a Mercedes Benz for your next company car?  Great!

Freedom to choose whether or not to bear a child buy using birth control or abortion?  Wrong, wrong, wrong!

Freedom to pack up your manufacturing company and move it from the US to Indonesia where you can pay workers $5/day instead of $15/hour?  Great!

Freedom from dirty air and toxic water for everyone via regulating pollution by business and industry?  Wrong, wrong wrong!

Freedom to hire illegal immigrants to care for your children and your garden for a fraction of what legal workers would cost?  Great!

Freedom to call La Migra on those workers if they start to make demands for better wages?  Awesome!

Freedom to create or join a union to argue on worker’s behalf for better wages and working conditions?  Wrong, wrong, wrong!

Freedom to avoid any and all costs and obligations related to living in a civil society?  Great!

Freedom to use any and all benefits of a civil society, even to the point of abuse?  Freedom to own as many politicians as necessary to get the legislation you want?  Freedom to tailor the tax landscape for your own benefit and against the needs of everyone else?  Freedom to promote any war anywhere for any reason at all?  Freedom to twist the entire legal system for your personal benefit?  Simply your due as a productive American citizen.

Freedom to treat everyone else as a serf and keep them perpetually under your thumb and make sure that none of their offspring will ever be able to compete with you or your offspring, and structure the whole of society into a giant funnel for transferring everything of value from the pockets of the poor and downtrodden into the pockets of the wealthy?  The greatest freedom of all…

Comment #5: MikeEss  on  06/02  at  10:15 AM

perhaps the male contribution to procreation-related program activities is best deemed “Necessary, but not sufficient”.  And hopefully a lot of fun wink

  As for alternative lexicon, if you want to talk specifically about sexual freedom, “libertine” is ready-made for the purpose, although it has negative connotations to those predisposed to disagree with/hate you anyway…

Comment #6: Scott the Obscure  on  06/02  at  10:26 AM

Those of us who take that belief seriously have been pointing out since the get-go that many to most “libertarians” do not support abortion rights, which automatically puts them in opposition to basic human rights.

Scene: 2008 campaign season
Paulbot: You should support Paul!  He supports your right to get married!
Me: He doesn’t support my right to an abortion.
Paulbot: But…gay marriage!
Me: Abortion.
Paulbot:...gay marriage?

And repeat.  They were fundamentally incapable of connecting the dots.

Comment #7: bomberE  on  06/02  at  10:30 AM

Paul: I like to use air-quotes when using the word conservative in reference to today’s crop of them.  Otherwise I just say right-winger.  Wingnut is good, too.

And Bette raises a great point about homegrown terrorism.  While everyone knows about the kid who wanted to blow up the Christmas tree and the Ft. Hood gunman was immediately tagged an Islamic extremist, during the same time period Scott Roeder is merely termed a “murderer” after committing an act meant to terrorize an entire group of people and most people don’t even remember the guy who flew a plane into an IRS building, or the guy who shot several cops on his way to the Tides Foundation, or the white supremacist who tried to blow up an MLK parade.  And smug wingnuts are able to spout off about how only Muslims are terrorists merely because we don’t characterize these other acts as terrorism.

Comment #8: Blitzgal  on  06/02  at  10:36 AM

Ha ha! “They like Pearl Jam.” That was one of your best one-liners ever.

We should call the modern “conservative” movement what they are: reactionaries. A conservative is someone who believes the interests of stability trump those of justice, so they want to slow the clock down. A reactionary is someone who wants to turn the clock back, and that’s what so many modern Republicans, “Rand” Paul among them, want to do.

Comment #9: felagund  on  06/02  at  10:42 AM

I disagree with the premise that we should abolish the term “libertarian.”  I think that we should simply acknowledge that it actually means what it has always meant in practice and abandon the “true Scotsman” pose so notable among this group.  Henceforth that term shall be understood to refer to a particular variety of butt ignorant, sanctimonious, free market conservative douchebag whose philosophy is by no means internally consistent, let alone consistent with the writings of the theoretical economists they cite.

Comment #10: DrDick  on  06/02  at  10:45 AM

Dr Dick @ 13: Seconded.

Comment #11: helen w. h.  on  06/02  at  10:50 AM

Emmett—precisely. Also, it’s great and all that Paul wants to make it legal for me to smoke pot, but where the fuck does he get off telling me I can’t burn a flag? I mean, I’m not lining up to burn a flag, but seriously? How the hell can someone call themselves libertarian and yet crack down on fundamental freedom of speech issue like that?

Paul is pandering to the laziest, most self-serving instincts.  I don’t burn flags, I have very little desire to (even when I’m most appalled at what is being done in my name by my country). But just because I don’t do it and I don’t want to do it doesn’t mean that I believe it should be illegal if it truly does no harm to someone else. And if you can’t see through to that, you have no right to call yourself a libertarian.

...
As for the Blogginheads discussion, I just finished watching and it was a very enjoyable one. It wasn’t as “punchy” as some of the others, but I felt like it was a much more genial discussion and it was hard to see this as “two people on opposite sides of the fence squaring off” like some of the others were.

As for the “till death do us part” discussion at the end, I thought that was very interesting, because I think you were both a little off the mark because those situations are always so messy that there’s really no script that can be followed. He was definitely romanticizing the “what if your partner gets sick, if you’re married, then that will give you the magical strength to stick by their side because of some words you recited together 20 years earlier.” But I think that when you dismissed Newt Gingrich as “just a bad guy” it was a little glib, especially when you were saying earlier that everyone needs to do what’s best for them. I mean, no one’s going to argue that what Gingrich did was really slimy and shitty, and most of us would like to think of ourselves as good enough people that we will stick by the side of a sick spouse until the bitter end—but I think reality can get in the way of that.

For example (and this shit is always an example so I apologize)—a friend of the family (in his 40s) was in a bad car accident a while back. It left him paralyzed from the neck down, with serious brain injuries that made it difficult for him to communicate. He was “still home,” but he couldn’t speak. The hospital bills even after insurance were enormous and bankrupted the family. The wife brought him home and cared for him, but her needs were no longer being met: emotionally, intellectually, sexually. This wasn’t a terminal thing—he could go on like that for another 40 years, but there was also no chance of improvement. He would never speak, walk, dress or feed himself again. She didn’t leave him, but she did find another guy to fulfill her needs. And as heartbreaking as it was for the friend of the family to be unable to really do anything as he watched his wife hook up with another guy, I guess my question is: was this woman a horrible, Gingrich-level person for examining her life, her situation, etc, and coming to the decision that she did?

Comment #12: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/02  at  11:05 AM

felagund:

The current bunch are imaginary-reactionaries. The times they want to turn the clock back to never existed. The 50s: sure, women knew their place and we were all against communists, but unions were everywhere and separate-but-equal was overturned as the law of the land. The 1890s: sure, workers had no rights and you could put poison in food, but billionaires were giving away their entire fortunes or even pledging their personal assets to prevent financial panics. What the wingnuts want is Oliver!, not <i>Oliver Twist<i>.

Comment #13: paul  on  06/02  at  11:07 AM

The inimitable Susan of Texas memorably summed up libertarians a while back:

Libertarians are authoritarian followers who believe they are authoritarian leaders.

Comment #14: atheist  on  06/02  at  11:14 AM

“But if someone is attending speeches from someone who is promoting the violent overthrow of our government, that’s really an offense that we should be going after — they should be deported or put in prison.”

So he wants to bring charges agains Todd Palin and Rick Perry?

Comment #15: cynickal  on  06/02  at  11:16 AM

@Comment #4: paul on 06/02 at 09:07 AM

Blitzgal: what do we call the wingnuts instead?

I think “authoritarians” works best.

Or, “shit kicking dumbfucks”, depending on my mood.

Comment #16: atheist  on  06/02  at  11:17 AM

EVERYONE is for “progress” in one form or another.

Comment #8: anoNY2

I see you had to use the scare quotes to warp the word progress to fit your hypothysis to what “EVERYONE” wants.

I suppose if by “progress” you mean regress and by “EVERYONE” you mean “a large percentage of the wealthiest citizens” then you would be correct.

FYI, for future reference:

re·gress (r-grs)
v. re·gressed, re·gress·ing, re·gress·es
v.intr.
1. To go back; move backward.
2. To return to a previous, usually worse or less developed state.
3. To have a tendency to approach or go back to a statistical mean.
v.tr. Psychology
To induce a state of regression in.
n. (rgrs)
1.
a. The act of going or coming back; return.
b. Passage back; reentry.
2. The act of reasoning backward from an effect to a cause.

 

Comment #17: cynickal  on  06/02  at  11:25 AM

You can go back as far as Hesiod (and probably further) to find the idea that women are merely receptacles for the planting of the male “seed” and storage for the growing child. Science has updated the reality, but the image remains. So I use this analogy: the male partner drops off half the blueprints while the female partner supplies the other half and does all the construction work.

At the very least, it serves as a good example of reframing when I’m teaching at the 100-level.

Comment #18: kouredios  on  06/02  at  11:32 AM

Oooh, Paul, you’re right; they’re fantasy-reactionaries.

That gives me all kinds of fun food for thought about putting them in Ren Faire costumes and so forth. They really do want to be feudal lords, even though they’d all poop their pants at the mere thought of being in a battle.

Comment #19: felagund  on  06/02  at  11:33 AM

@athiest, 10:17

“Pleasantvillers” or “Pleasantvillagers”, the second for the Bobos and other media sorts.

Comment #20: ThresherK  on  06/02  at  11:39 AM

Libertarianism has always been bunkum. It’s about preserving the maximum power for the white wealthy elite. Libertarians have no problem with government force when the libertarians of Somalia, acting in their own enlightened self-interest, board corporate owned transport ships with assault rifles and missile launchers and hold them for ransom.

Comment #21: kathygnome  on  06/02  at  11:45 AM

Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, has a different definition of “progress,” and they are all “for” it.

Everyone has their own cultural definition of a dough pocket filled with delicious stuff, but that doesn’t make a perogi an empanada.

Comment #22: bomberE  on  06/02  at  11:56 AM

anoNY2, you can take it up with Bob LaFollette if “progressive” chaps your ass.

Comment #23: Tyro  on  06/02  at  12:00 PM

Ah, butthurtness. That’s the other quality that really distinguishes the “libertarian” from Republicans.

Comment #24: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/02  at  12:02 PM

What’s wrong with meditation? It might be easy to dismiss because of it’s association with new age “spirituality,” but it has a lot of value purely as a relaxation and concentration exercise.  I mean, it’s really just a matter of practice like you would practice anything else.  When I meditate, I am practicing getting into a calm, focused state, and the more I practice this, the better I am at getting into this state when it might otherwise be difficult, like when circumstances are anger or anxiety-provoking.  It has benefits (that you can’t get from drinking) even for someone who has no interest in “spirituality.”

Comment #25: mamram  on  06/02  at  12:06 PM

felagund:

Some of them would be thrilled at the thought of being in a battle. It would be the sudden discovery that the people on the other side were armed with real weapons that would get them. (Oh. yeah, and the part about camping out with no running water and having to fix their own food, albeit real armies don’t have that last part.)

Comment #26: paul  on  06/02  at  12:08 PM

mamram—I think Amanda specifically walked it back about that in the bloggingheads. If you’re meditating as a “spiritual” thing, it’s really no different from praying. She didn’t categorically go after meditation in all of its forms and applications.

Comment #27: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/02  at  12:09 PM

You liberals can do as you please, but I prefer to keep using ‘libertarian socialist’ as a descriptor for myself, for the very reason that the headsploding quality of putting those two terms together when talking to the knownothings can incite people to actually think about the ‘political theory’ vs ‘on the ground/in practice’ meaning of these terms.

I already, however, refuse to use libertarian as a lone descriptor for my beliefs (whereas I have no such qualms using the word ‘socialist’ by itself for same) for the reasons cited above.

Furthermore: ‘progressive’ IS mostly contentless and is used to describe what I would call a mostly imaginary unity amongst people who more or less disagree with each other on fundamental levels, as expressed by the huge number of ‘progressives’ who put either gender or race issues to the side and see no irony in calling themselves such while opposing basic reproductive freedoms. And ‘liberal’ is a term of attack on the Left (usually prefixed with ‘neo-’) in every country I’ve ever been an activist in except the United States, and its actual meaning is closer to what you guys would call ‘libertarian’: an ideology that exhalts the reduction of the role of the state in everything, but especially the economy.

Comment #28: BlackBloc  on  06/02  at  12:13 PM

My experience trying to divide up this phylum is Republicans go on and on about how they deserve to pay less tax while libertarians talk about tax only as a vague concept (i.e. the thing gummint does; harshes their freedom).  Neither group thinks women are people.

Comment #29: Unree  on  06/02  at  12:17 PM

And that right there goes to show that you didn’t even read Rand Paul’s fucking quote, you moron.

Comment #30: Blitzgal  on  06/02  at  12:32 PM

The fact that “libertarians” can try to be against flag burning is completely amazing to me, especially since I think of it as even more of a property issue than a speech issue.  If I buy a flag with my own money, then that flag is my property.  Don’t these people supposedly believe that property is sacred and that the owner can do whatever they want with it?  Well, maybe I want to set my property on fire.

Comment #31: GumbyAnne  on  06/02  at  12:37 PM

REally, anaoNY2?  you’d have a problem with a Somali central government, if there was such a thing, cracking down on piracy?  You’ve got a problem with enforcing contracts by, if it comes to it, force?  Somehow, I find that hard to beleive, as long as the force is applied on ehalf of the powerful.  That’s all free-market-fundamentalist, semi-anarchist (sorry, BlackBloc) “libertarians” are, in the end… power-worshippers.  Eternal suck-ups to the schoolyard bullies.  You know, assholes.

Comment #32: Scott the Obscure  on  06/02  at  12:39 PM

It’s usually right at the point where government moves from collecting taxes to starting a war that libertarians suddenly discover they love big government. It’s quite impressive, actually, how they all turn on a dime.

Comment #33: atheist  on  06/02  at  12:41 PM

Given the differences between different brands of Libertarianism, the correct thing to do when someone declares themselves to be a Libertarian is to ask “What kind?” or if you want to see them go up in flames, “A Libertarian-Socialist?”.

And when someone believes in freedom for themselves, but enslavement for others, the correct label is “fucking hypocrite” (oops! Am I allowed to use the f-word here ? Oh well, too fucking late). Or more condescendingly “No dear, you’re just confused”.

And anytime someone brings up Ayn Rand, just sneer at them “Oh! You’re one of /those/” in the tone of voice you would use to anyone who admitted to being a child-molestor

Comment #34: veryz  on  06/02  at  12:45 PM

@Comment #38: anoNY2 on 06/02 at 11:38 AM

I don’t think Rand Paul is very libertarian, if he actually believes in what he said.  If there is one thing that libertarians do not like, it is government coercion.  Perhaps if you read some Hayek or Reason instead of “Rand Paul’s fucking quote” you would know that.

We’re interested in libertarians as they act in the real world. We don’t about the fantasies of Hayek or Reason writers.

 

Comment #35: atheist  on  06/02  at  12:47 PM

Sorry, don’t care about fantasies

Comment #36: atheist  on  06/02  at  12:48 PM

anon, it’s not that I’m dismissive. It’s that you’re not worth the time. Sorry. I realize you’re male and I’m female and you think that entitles you to my rapt attention and respect, but it does not.  You’re merely proving the point that “libertarians” are just egotistical conservatives, and not really worth anyone’s time or attention, and certainly not a distinguishing label.

Comment #37: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/02  at  12:51 PM

The current bunch are imaginary-reactionaries. The times they want to turn the clock back to never existed.

The proper word for this is “fascist.” Which is another word that probably ought to be retired (Fuck you Jonah Goldberg).

Comment #38: SallyStrange  on  06/02  at  01:03 PM

@Comment #47: anoNY2 on 06/02 at 12:53 PM

Uhhhhhh, which libertarians might those be?  Not the ones opposing the Patriot Act, of course.  Not the ones opposing both the Bush and Obama wars, of course.

The fact is that people who consider themselves “libertarians”, and also oppose wars and the Patriot Act, have always been a small subset of “libertarians”.

Comment #39: atheist  on  06/02  at  01:04 PM

Libertarianism supports your right to burn a flag, individual libertarians may or may not.  It seems pretty obvious all isms go this way; Feminism is anti-racist, individual feminists may or may not be.  Nevermind that any “big school” philosophy will have many subschools, which agree and disagree whereverr.  (Of course, as a progressive conservative, I may be biased in that last point.)

Comment #40: Brian  on  06/02  at  01:08 PM

Libertarian Megan McArdle supports the Iraq War: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Megan_McArdle#Iraq

Comment #41: atheist  on  06/02  at  01:11 PM

Claiming that I think I am entitled to anything from you is just disgusting.

It’s disgusting to judge a person’s actions as well as their words? Do tell.

Comment #42: SallyStrange  on  06/02  at  01:18 PM

@Comment #54: anoNY2 on 06/02 at 01:12 PM

I realize that some commenters on this site might take that “fact” as proven, but I haven’t seen the evidence.

That’s fine. You can also go ahead and disbelieve in gravity if you want. It’s your delusion.

Comment #43: atheist  on  06/02  at  01:24 PM

You say, “I am not acting entitled.”

The content of that sentence contradicts the rest of the words you’ve spoken, which, by the style and content, indicate a certain sense of entitlement.

Comment #44: SallyStrange  on  06/02  at  01:30 PM

Perhaps the label “libertarian” shouldn’t be taken to mean anything more than the label “progressive:”  a handy way to briefly describe your political beliefs.

If it’s that meaningless, maybe it should be retired.

Comment #45: Xecklothxayyquou Gilchrist  on  06/02  at  01:30 PM

“Whenever Rand Paul or his father say something stupid and unlibertarian, the “progressives” try to tar all libertarians with their words.”

...and that is so wrong, why?  I say take your “No True Scotsman Libertarian” and shove it up your ass.

I was always told while growing up that I shouldn’t judge Christianity by the way Christians speak and behave.  This sort of made sense when I was 12.  It hasn’t made sense for the last few decades.

I feel the same way about Libertarians, Republicans, Marxists, Randites, Fascists, etc.  What do we have to judge the value of any given philosophy than the lives and actions of those who proclaim themselves to be believers?

I would dismiss anyone who says we shouldn’t judge Communism by the history of failure every time it’s been tried (because “it’s never really been tried!” they whine).  I also dismiss any moron who claims we shouldn’t judge Libertarianism (or, let’s call it by its traditional name: Oligarchy) by its history of failure too.

No, sorry, we’ve done the feudal thing before and it doesn’t work for anyone who isn’t on a throne, or in a boardroom, or on a yacht, or in a private jet, etc.  Been there, done that, take your ridiculous ideas and go argue with flat-earthers and evolution deniers.  Leave us decent folk to work things out without your “help”.  Be useful to society by shutting your mouths and letting the adults take care of business…

 

Comment #46: MikeEss  on  06/02  at  01:37 PM

@anoNY2:  I think the broader point here is that, for better or worse, the term “libertarian” has been hijacked by self-important blowhards who believe in “liberty for me but not for thee”.  This is coming from someone who used to consider himself a libertarian (but is now reformed).  The unfortunate truth is that if 90% of the people in a group hold certain opinions, those opinions become associated with the group.  Just because the might be one Klansman somewhere who isn’t a racist pile of shit, doesn’t mean that the KKK in general is not full of racist assholes.  So, sorry for your loss, but if you truly don’t agree with the rest of the people who’ve adopted the term libertarian, then it’s time to find a new moinker.

Comment #47: progrocker  on  06/02  at  01:46 PM

Speaking of hypocrites, Romney spouted off quite a whopper today when he proclaimed that due to Obama’s policies we are “only inches away from ceasing to be a free market economy.”  Newsflash to fake conservatives everywhere: when big industry sucks up billions of tax dollars in subsidies, WE DO NOT HAVE A FREE MARKET ECONOMY.  America has never HAD a free market economy.  It is a fantasy-land economic system with no basis in reality.

Comment #48: Blitzgal  on  06/02  at  01:48 PM

@Anon

It’s like when someone says, “I’m not a racist, but [insert obviously racist statement here].”

You still call them a racist.

Comment #49: SallyStrange  on  06/02  at  01:51 PM

Which is why my first post was about how the term “progressive” was just as meaningless and should be retired as well.

So why are you arguing, again?

Comment #50: Xecklothxayyquou Gilchrist  on  06/02  at  01:58 PM

Freshman English was a long long time ago, so I have no idea what you’re talking about.

Well, the second part of that sentence is at least indisputably correct. For the first, I have a hard time believing you’re more than, oh, 16 years old. Which shouldn’t be long enough ago to forget Freshman English, but whatever.

Comment #51: Well, what?  on  06/02  at  02:01 PM

Conservatives, of whom Libertarians are a sub-tribe, hate four groups of people: women, the poor, persons of color, and LBGTQ people.  To be a conservative, you must hate two of the four and be indifferent enough to the other two that you don’t mind their getting caught in the fire.

The two for libertarians are women and the poor.  Indeed, even the Christian Right is not as deeply dedicated to woman-hatred as libertarians.  Other than lying, it is the defining characteristic of the libertarian.

Comment #52: Punditus Maximus  on  06/02  at  02:07 PM

So where was my statement that “obviously” proves I believe I am entitled to something from AM?

That would be every one of your ad nauseam replies to people, including Amanda, who have uniformly made it clear that they are not interested in reading them.

Comment #53: themmases  on  06/02  at  02:07 PM

I doubt many self-described liberatarians would agree with Paul about imprisoning people for going to speeches. But his argument against the legitimacy of the civil rights act was couched in distinctly libertarian language.

Hence the confusion. Is he or isn’t he? He seems to adopt libertarian postures when it suits him, but drops them when it doesn’t.

Comment #54: SallyStrange  on  06/02  at  02:08 PM

“A truly liberal sentiment, if by “liberal” I meant fascist.”

I asked, I am not in a position to demand it, and even if I was I wouldn’t.  I’m merely expressing my opinion, not demanding your head on a plate.  Deal with it.

Also:  There is no such thing as a “Liberal Fascist” unless you also believe in the existence of openly Jewish KKK members, or meat-eating vegetarians, or rifle-carrying, mercenary pacifists, in which case you have much larger issues affecting you than your libertarian “beliefs”...

“This is exactly what republicans say to democrats.”

Not hardly.  Republicans would lock up all the people who disagree and put them in some cage miles away from the convention, or claim that the political event is on private property which gives them the right to arrest anyone to deny their freedom of speech.

I just asked.  I have no power to enforce my desires.

“At least you didn’t try to include the Randians in with the Libertarians, that always irks me.”

Prepare to be irked.  Libertarians and Randians => not enough difference to slide a piece of paper between them, unless you take into account that Randian (as least it should) means/implies adherence to atheism as well, something many Libertarians don’t care about or are actively offended by…

Comment #55: MikeEss  on  06/02  at  02:16 PM

“The objection wasn’t to the whole Civil Rights Act, it was to the part of the Act that forces private businesses to serve all customers.”

Yeah, see, it’s okay to have civil rights, just as long as they don’t actually mean anything in the real world for whole groups of people…
[/screw-loose-libertarian]

Comment #56: MikeEss  on  06/02  at  02:28 PM

I would think that anonNY’s repeating of their own quote would be evidence enough of the demand for attention.

Comment #57: Crissa  on  06/02  at  02:37 PM

Yeah, see, it’s okay to have civil rights, just as long as they don’t actually mean anything in the real world for whole groups of people…

Also, so long as those people don’t actually try to do something about it, forcing the businesses to employ the government in order to back up their discrimination.

Comment #58: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/02  at  02:38 PM

Really, Anon, you’re going to pretend that opposition to the Civil Rights Act on the grounds that it’s wrong to force business owners whose businesses serve the public to serve ALL of the public MIGHT OR MIGHT NOT be a libertarian argument?

That is the epitome of a libertarian argument, and it’s a perfect encapsulation of why libertarianism is so bankrupt.

Comment #59: SallyStrange  on  06/02  at  02:40 PM

My point was that your sentiment was most definitely NOT liberal, not that it was some concoction of liberal and fascist.

No, fascist is using the force of the government to enforce the social codes of the wealthy and controllers of commerce. The pre-Civil Rights Act society was effectively a fascist one where those with money called upon the state to arrest and kill those who would break the social codes (eating at a restaurant while black). That is the libertarian fantasy land, which is, not coincidentally, the Republican fantasy.

Comment #60: Tyro  on  06/02  at  02:40 PM

@Comment #79: MikeEss on 06/02 at 02:28 PM

Yeah, see, it’s okay to have civil rights, just as long as they don’t actually mean anything in the real world for whole groups of people…

In my experience reality is the achilles heel of libertarians. That is why they intellectualize and rationalize everything; this intellectualization is like a filter that prevents any contamination of reality into their closed and perfect belief system.

Comment #61: atheist  on  06/02  at  02:47 PM

So what you’re saying is, if I see a libertarian on the street and I decide that their very presence is harassment, I can have them arrested? I’M STARTING TO SIGN ONTO THIS PHILOSOPHY.

Comment #62: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/02  at  02:48 PM

The other way of looking at this is to say that the government would use force in order to secure the store owner’s right to do business with those he chooses

Which, ultimately, a freedom loving government beholden to the people’s interests would not do, since the government is not in the business of enforcing social mores on behalf of those who control commerce. On the other hand in a propertarian/right-wing fantasy land, the job of government would be to use force to make the whims of commercial actors the law. “propertarian” is the sacastic descriptor applied to so-called libertarians, but they are congenital right wingers. Most of them, really, in it for the tax cuts but some who simply have authoritarian fantasies they hope to realize should they ever get access to even a little bit of wealth.

Comment #63: Tyro  on  06/02  at  02:51 PM

no, ano. Stores cannot operate as exclusive clubs. Because when you allow stores to act as exclusive clubs, what happens is that entire groups of people find themselves completely disenfranchised and unable to get goods and services when the prejudices of their community begin to enact their “rights as business owners” to exclude them.

You want to pretend that history didn’t exist, which is your typical bullshit libertarian “look at me I’m so smart with my intellectualism and my laser-focused ideology.”

Comment #64: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/02  at  02:54 PM

If you’ve made like a third of the posts in a thread and that thread is approaching a hundred posts, that alone should indicate to you that you are being a bore.

Comment #65: pharmakos  on  06/02  at  02:55 PM

“The other way of looking at this is to say that the government would use force in order to secure the store owner’s right to do business with those he chooses, kind of like the cops would stop someone from harassing you on the street if you asked them to.”

Yeah!  I can’t imagine why anyone would not appreciate it if cops arrested Negroes for attempting to sit down at a “Whites Only” lunch counter.  After all, they’re just performing a service for local businesses, just the same as if they stopped you from harassing your ex.  Anyone can see there’s no practical difference there at all…

Comment #66: MikeEss  on  06/02  at  02:55 PM

As someone who self-identifies as a libertarian, I am endlessly frustrated by the high visibility of the “conservative who likes pot” variety of libertarian. Essentially, there are four types of people who self-identify as libertarian:

1) Conservatives who want be “different” or “radical”—see also, Rand Paul
2) Austrian fans with a dash of social conservatism—see also, Ron Paul (and probably anoNY2)
3) Social liberals who favor market economics—some of the Reason crowd, some of the odder anarchists, me
4) Socialists who rightly criticize centralized authority—Chomsky and other less mainstream left-wingers

As a member of group 3), groups 2) and 4) annoy me, but I can’t really hate them. Group 1) makes me so angry that I’m now hesitant to call myself a libertarian for fear that someone will think I’m one of them. Note that this is *not* a No True Libertarian argument. I’m not claiming the mantle of true libertarianism, because if in common parlance being like Rand Paul is what “libertarian” means, than I am not a libertarian.

Comment #67: Kurt Horner  on  06/02  at  02:56 PM

Tyro: Yeah. It never seems to occur to them that in an actual libertarian paradise, they likely wouldn’t end up as the all-powerful owner class, but rather among the slaves.

Comment #68: atheist  on  06/02  at  02:58 PM

Libertarianism has, in any case, just been a social pose for people who want tax cuts but dont want to carry the stain of the republican party within their social circles. Certainly among my friend’s, people get more of a social pass for being pollution-supporting, poor-disdaining, tax-cut-wanting libertarians than they would if they were out and out republicans.

If they really cared about privacy and government authoritarianism in law enforcement, they’d be engaged in full throated support of the most left wing elements of the Democratic party. Instead they’re consistently on the side of the republicans, since they get tax cuts out of them. The democrats are hemmed in because they have a right flank they’re trying to propitatiate to appear “tough.” The anti-authoritarians exist on the left but the libertarians will always take the side of the republicans, so the democrat is never exposed to libertarian pressure to oppose “tough of crime/terrorism” authoritarianism. In part because so called “libertarians” just happen to be well represented among private defense and law enforcement contractors. Authoritarianism is ok for libertarians as long as they can make a profit off it—which is a core republican belief, in any case.

Comment #69: Tyro  on  06/02  at  02:59 PM

@Comment #98: anoNY2 on 06/02 at 03:02 PM

However, you’re kind of assuming that all the store owners are secret racists, and ignoring all the stores that are not owned by white people.

We don’t have to assume anything; we can open history books and read about how many store owners acted before the CRA. This is enough to convince us that we need that particular law.

Comment #70: atheist  on  06/02  at  03:06 PM

While there are store owners who aren’t racist or white now, it is quite provable that allowing discrimination does not help the general welfare.  If the racist-owners attack or banish the non-racists, and the non-racists have less of the wealth, the non-racists will eventually disappear from the market.  It doesn’t work the other way around, as the free-marketeers would have you believe, because there are other than market forces at work.

This is why collusion and racketeering are illegal, as well - businesses that are willing to do things not-legal have an advantage over those who are limited to legal avenues.

Comment #71: Crissa  on  06/02  at  03:08 PM

However, you’re kind of assuming that all the store owners are secret racists, and ignoring all the stores that are not owned by white people.

No, actually, what the poster is assuming is that history (recent fucking history, btw, not thousands of years ago) means something and that reality is a thing that is real.

Whereas you want to pretend that humanity won’t act like humanity anymore, once it’s recognized the suuuuper specialness of the libertarian golden rule (who has the gold, makes the rule).

Comment #72: Well, what?  on  06/02  at  03:10 PM

Clue number one that you’re dealing with either a) a teenager, or b) a “libertarian”: They think the world began in 1981, and all before that was mere swirling irrelevant darkness.

Comment #73: Well, what?  on  06/02  at  03:14 PM

And that happened totally on its own, not as a concerted effort to integrate and remove prejudice.

And there are no people today (muslims, atheists, mexicans) who, if businesses were allowed to exclude tomorrow, would find them systematically denied services until discrimination was so prevalent it became the status quo.

Tra la-la la-la….

Comment #74: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/02  at  03:22 PM

Well, what?—It’s no mistake that the *very first video* on Huckabee’s new “appropriate for home-schooling” history video site is about the Reagan Revolution. I mean, it *is* the most important aspect of American History, after all.

Comment #75: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/02  at  03:26 PM

We could retire all the terms as having too much baggage, so that people will be distracted by things that those affecting those words never intended, but what terms shall we use, then?

Colors?  Blue, Red, Green. Black….  No, same problem.

Planets?  Mars, Venus, Saturn….  Still too many connotations.

Elements?  Iron, Silver, Sulfur….  No.

Elements not known until modern times?  Helium, Argon, Yttrium….  Maybe.

Comment #76: Dr. Psycho  on  06/02  at  03:32 PM

@Comment #105: anoNY2 on 06/02 at 03:21 PM

The question is not whether the CRA helps the general welfare.  I am not arguing that it would make the world a better place if part of the CRA were repealed.  What I am saying is that some libertarians focus more on the property rights of the shopkeeper and think that the CRA violated them.

Well I’m sold! By all means let us privilege the theoretical rights of shopkeepers over the general welfare.

After all, in libertoonia, a theory is always more important than a reality.

Comment #77: atheist  on  06/02  at  03:34 PM

Just because someone says they are a libertarian, doesn’t make them so. If we define libertarianism by its philosophical beliefs, Rand Paul does not fit any standard definition of libertarianism. He doesn’t even fit the weaker definition of a classical liberal. The overwhelming majority of libertarians support abortion, this is true because almost any theory of libertarianism requires someone to accept abortion as a right. The arguments for abortion from libertarians is usually quite different though. The right to abortion naturally follows from the right of self-ownership and, in this framework, an unwanted baby is nothing more than an intruder, a parasite, which the mother has the right to kill. Whether you agree with this theorizing behind abortion rights or not, it’s pretty hard to get a coherent libertarian theory that doesn’t allow abortion. Just because someone claims they are libertarian, doesn’t make it so.

For a standard explanation of the libertarian theory of abortion, this is probably the most accessible piece I’ve read: http://www.walterblock.com/wp-content/uploads/publications/block-whitehead_abortion-2005.pdf

Comment #78: Ted H.  on  06/02  at  03:39 PM

There happens to be a libertarian smackdown underway at Pharyngula right now. I will quote from one of the commenters there, Walton, who is a former libertarian. Here he is referring to another commenter, Niblick, who has been (attempting to) defend libertarianism:

Niblick seems to subscribe to a deontological brand of libertarianism, based on the axiom that it is morally wrong to initiate force against a person and to coerce his or her will, except in defence of one’s own person or property; and that, beyond this, relations between individuals should be based on agreements freely entered-into, not on coercive force. It thus follows, since the state is an entity built on coercive force, that the role of the state should be mostly limited to protecting citizens and their property from force and fraud, and enforcing contracts; that most other functions should be left to freely-negotiated contracts between individuals in a marketplace; and that forcible redistribution of wealth, and government regulation of private trade beyond that necessary to prevent fraud, are morally wrong. These are the kinds of arguments associated, in various forms, with the likes of Ayn Rand and Murray Rothbard.

That kind of libertarianism entails, of course, a rejection of utilitarian ethics. If it is always wrong to use force except in defence of one’s person or property, then it follows that it is wrong to use force even where doing so would have, on balance, better results than not doing so. Even if it can be shown that government intervention in a particular sphere (say, healthcare) will lead to a substantial reduction in human suffering, a deontological libertarian is still compelled by his or her ethics to oppose such intervention. The debate between utilitarians and deontological libertarians is therefore one of ethical values, not of facts; empirical evidence is irrelevant to this debate. Even if they agree on all the relevant facts, they will still disagree on the desired outcome.

However, the more interesting and sophisticated libertarian thinkers - Friedman and Hayek, in particular - relied mainly on consequentialist libertarian arguments. They didn’t claim that the initiation of coercive force is necessarily inherently wrong, nor did they rely on deontological arguments about “self-ownership” or “natural rights”. Rather, they claimed, from a utilitarian standpoint, that societies with more individual freedom, stronger property rights and a free-market economy tend to be, on balance, healthier and more prosperous than societies with less individual freedom and a state-directed economy. In other words, assuming that the goal of our morality should be to maximise human wellbeing, they assert that the evidence shows that less state intervention tends to lead to greater wellbeing, and that more state intervention tends to lead to less wellbeing.

This, of course, is an empirical claim: it must be tested against empirical evidence from history, economics and sociology. And, of course, it’s dangerous to generalize. Some government interventions are demonstrably beneficial: IIRC, Friedman and Hayek were both willing to accept the need for some public expenditure on education and for a basic level of welfare provision, for instance. The main area in which I part company with consequentialist libertarians is that I’ve become convinced that, on a balance of the evidence, certain other functions and services - healthcare, in particular - are better provided by the state, rather than being left to the free market.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/06/oh_so_thats_what_the_libertari.php

I feel so much less confused about libertarianism now.

Comment #79: SallyStrange  on  06/02  at  03:40 PM

Can you really say that this would inevitably lead to a systematic denial of services?

The fact that services are still systematically denied to minority groups in this country despite laws against it would be a strong indication. What evidence do you have that people have magically just gotten over racism in the past 30 - 40 years?

Comment #80: SallyStrange  on  06/02  at  03:44 PM

Oh, and on the subject of libertarians, check out this superlative comment thread at Reason.com, on the subject of the Civil War. It features:

-Plenty of “Extremism in the defense of Liberty” (or is it the defense of Slavery? It’s so hard to tell).
-More unreal reasoning than you can shake a stick at
-Full-throated condemnations of that tyrant Abraham Lincoln, with muted celebrations of the liberty-loving Confederate States of America
-a great summation of the whole thing by commenter ‘Popeye’ at the end.

via the always-excellent Roy Edroso

Comment #81: atheist  on  06/02  at  03:49 PM

Ted H.—the problem is that libertarians theoretically have a “choice” to make about who they caucus with. Unless you are a died-in-the-wool libertarian who will only vote for a libertarian candidate who fiercely upholds all the tenants of liberty (be they bodily autonomy, property, or civil), then you have to decide “who gets your vote” when it comes time to cast your ballot, and even if you do cast your ballot for a died-in-the-wool libertarian, he is going to have to caucus with someone once he gets into office in order to get shit done.

So what you have, in our two-party system, is the perceived dichotomy of personal/bodily autonomy and civil liberties as opposed to property liberties.

Democrats are seen as good on bodily autonomy and civil liberties. Abortion rights, gay rights, minority rights, and 1st amendment rights are seen as the domain of the Democrats (although they could be better about defending that domain, ask any progressive). Republicans have a very rich, very recent history of trying to shut down Abortion rights, Gay Marriage, and free speech initiatives. They are the ones putting together “papers please” laws. Republicans have a very authoritarian streak in them when it comes to personal, bodily, and civil liberty, which is anathema to what a “true” libertarian would ask for.

Democrats, however, as seen as weak on property liberties. The NRA will not endorse Democrats over Republicans. While it is true that a Democrat is more likely to be pro-gun-control than a Republican, it is very far outside of the party platform because it has become a third rail. Democrats are seen as being more likely to take “your money” away from you as a result of higher taxes (this is also a bit of a false assumption, as Democrats have shown themselves to be generally more fiscally responsible than Republicans—see Bill Clinton’s paying down the debt and GW Bush exploding it). As for basic property—eminent domain has been abused by both parties, so you can’t really give “the safety of your land” to either party.

So even though the facts really bear out that Democrats are actually not as bad on property liberties as all that, the perception is that there is a balanced scale, and that libertarians must make some sort of Sophie’s Choice and caucus with either a Republican, who will let you keep your guns and your money, or a Democrat, who won’t try to arrest you for having sex with a consenting adult with matching genitals or force you to give birth to a child you don’t want.

Except it’s not really a choice. Because you don’t typically see Libertarians caucusing with Democrats. Like, ever. They *always* throw in with Republicans. Because with enough money, they figure they can -buy- any personal, bodily, and civil liberties they might need. Their motto, boiled down, is “I got mine—fuck y’all.”

Comment #82: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/02  at  03:55 PM

“I propose that the general welfare would be enhanced if we shot all of the current members of the KKK in this country.  Does that make it legal?  Or even a good idea?”

Of course this is a silly strawman. 

But you are seriously arguing that it should be perfectly legal to deny service/accommodation/entry/presence based on things as ephemeral as membership in the KKK (let alone skin color, religion, place of origin, and countless more subtle things).  And by deny you also mean bringing the enforcement mechanisms of the government to bear on behalf of the poor, beleaguered businessman (because it would also be legal to deny the existence/creation of businesswomen, right?) to protect “his rights”.

“Can you really say that this would inevitably lead to a systematic denial of services?”

Did you fall off the turnip truck yesterday?...

Comment #83: MikeEss  on  06/02  at  03:58 PM

@Comment #113: anoNY2 on 06/02 at 03:43 PM

I propose that the general welfare would be enhanced if we shot all of the current members of the KKK in this country.  Does that make it legal?  Or even a good idea?

You’re the one proposing a sweeping overhaul of US law, not me. Since you are the one proposing the action, you are also the one who must justify that action.

 

Comment #84: atheist  on  06/02  at  03:59 PM

I propose that the general welfare would be enhanced if we shot all of the current members of the KKK in this country.  Does that make it legal?  Or even a good idea?

Of course not having the right to use your business to oppress and exclude black people is just like being rounded up and shot for your associations!  Nothing but that well-known libertarian brand of reasoned, principled debate here!

Comment #85: themmases  on  06/02  at  04:05 PM

ano is going to play the “if I just declare everything is isolated, then I can declare nothing is systemic” game.

Comment #86: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/02  at  04:06 PM

LOL.  So anony’s big defense is “I don’t see systematic discrimination, therefore it doesn’t exist!”

That TOTALLY disproves the whole libertarians are privileged clueless white boyz things.  Totally!

Comment #87: Rare Vos  on  06/02  at  04:07 PM

No, what causes the confusion is that the vast majority of libertarians are not nearly as intelligent and well-read as Walton and are mostly just veiling their basic selfish desire to keep more money and avoid thinking about their responsibilities to their fellow citizens behind a smokescreen of pseudo-intellectual claptrap.

Comment #88: SallyStrange  on  06/02  at  04:07 PM

Is there any evidence that this is a systemic problem, and not isolated incidents?

Since you’ve apparently never met even one non-white person you could just ask, I’d say the exclusion seems pretty systemic.

Comment #89: themmases  on  06/02  at  04:10 PM

Which brand of libertarianism appeals to you, Anon? The empirically verifiable kind, or the other kind?

Comment #90: SallyStrange  on  06/02  at  04:10 PM

Pearl Jam? You mean Jimmy Buffett.

Comment #91: demz taters  on  06/02  at  04:12 PM

“Is there any evidence that this is a systemic problem, and not isolated incidents?”

Is there any evidence that supports the idea that it’s not harmful to the people discriminated against to be kicked out of one place of business in an “isolated incident”, but it would be if they were systematically kicked out of many businesses?

Ever been on this planet before?...

Comment #92: MikeEss  on  06/02  at  04:12 PM

This is the typical answer I got when I asked for proof of systemic discrimination at this time.  I understand that I won’t be getting more, so I won’t ask.  I would just like to point out that saying something “seems” one way isn’t enough to convince me.

Treating sarcasm as a lack of the extensive evidence you’re too thick to Google is certainly one pretext to flounce.  I’d like you to know that I’ll joyfully accept whichever you choose.

Comment #93: themmases  on  06/02  at  04:23 PM

Oh, and this is pretty great too: the unreality of Hayek’s beliefs, thrown into stark relief by world events. By the always fascinating Fabius Maximus.

Comment #94: atheist  on  06/02  at  04:23 PM

Well, I’ll give you this, anoNY2, you’re a piece of work.

A twisted, deeply disturbing, makes-me-ashamed-to-share-a-species-with-you piece of work, but a piece of work nonetheless…

Comment #95: MikeEss  on  06/02  at  04:27 PM

If you are not even sure of your own beliefs, then it calls into question why you are here trying to defend something you’re not quite clear on yourself.

I have no respect, NONE, for someone who hesitates about the value of empiricism in his belief system. I’m done with you.

Comment #96: SallyStrange  on  06/02  at  04:31 PM

ano—part of something being systemic is that it seeks to protect itself by shutting down/dismissing reporting of the problem.  In the 1950s and 60s, local newspapers in the south didn’t have a lot of “hey, we’re treating black people like shit” articles in them. Part of what makes something SYSTEMIC is that it becomes so inculcated in the culture that it can be effectively ignored by the people who are not adversely effected by it, and the people who are adversely effected by it can be declared as troublemakers, rabble-rousers, malcontents, etc.

Take for example, police profiling of drivers by race. The only time I have ever EVER been pulled over, white girl that I am, was when I was going crazy-over-the-speed-limit. For me, I am not going to argue why I was pulled over.

But for black men, particularly black men under 40, they are pulled over all the fucking time. And when they complain about it, when they point out that it’s unfair that they should be pulled over when they are obeying traffic laws, when they’re asked to pop the trunk “you know, unless you have SOMETHING TO HIDE,” and especially if they make enough noise about it that the media gets involved, they are accused of exactly that: They are troublemakers—the police MUST have had a reason to pull them over. They’re rabble-rousers—they’re taking an honest mistake by a police officer who confused them with some other black person (they all look alike you know) and blowing it way out of proportion. They’re malcontents—they’re just playing to race card because they don’t want to work an honest day in their life and it’s easier to make a bunch of white people feel guilty over something that ended a hundred and fifty years ago than it is to get a job.

So yeah, the fact that we don’t have a lot of newspaper articles being written about what young black men “seem” to experience every fucking day in this country doesn’t make it any less systemic.

Comment #97: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/02  at  04:32 PM

anoNY2 is not worth talking to, folks.  I thought we decided that last time, and the time before….  At least not on this subject.  There is no reality in there.

Comment #98: helen w. h.  on  06/02  at  04:40 PM

#130 translation:  I don’t talk to people who aren’t white, so it’s not proof unless it agrees with my bigotry.

Comment #99: Rare Vos  on  06/02  at  04:43 PM

Or how about if those black men go into a store and suddenly the security officer makes it his business to make sure that they are never left alone? This meets your criteria of “private business” and not “government.” And again, it’s systemic.

Comment #100: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/02  at  04:44 PM

“Believing that you know everything is the mark of a teenager”

As is holding tight to a delusion political philiosphy that denies reality, human nature and common fucking sense, glibertarian.

Comment #101: Rare Vos  on  06/02  at  04:44 PM

You could start with the post two below this one, which is about the media coverage of racial issues (real and maliciously imagined) that you seem to think is so even-handed and dispassionate.  You could also check out the “Race” and “the South” tags on this very blog for evidence of the exact type of mistreatment you’re claiming doesn’t happen anymore, and the shameful indifference to covering it that might give you some idea why you don’t hear about it more.  Will you need a primer on how to scroll up to those tags, too?

Also, citing the ‘50s and ‘60s just dismisses all of the progress we have made since then in racial relations.

Since you’ve made it very clear that you know nothing about how people in the U.S. are (mis)treated on the basis of race, and that you further know nothing about how to look it up, I can’t imagine why you think anyone would accept this statement from you.

Comment #102: themmases  on  06/02  at  04:56 PM

Unlike you, ano, I’ve actually talked to black people, and it’s systemic because they have told me their experiences and I choose to listen to them and believe them, rather than declare that they’re just making shit up to cover up, rabble-rouse, or race-bait.

That’s the difference between us.

You pretend that there’s an objective level of proof that people have just failed to meet, when really you’re putting your fingers in your ears, shutting your eyes, turning your back and screaming LA LA LA I CAN’T HEAR YOU when people are showing you the proof.

Comment #103: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/02  at  04:56 PM

Whining about being insulted over the internet is a coward’s ploy.  Just sayin’

Comment #104: Rare Vos  on  06/02  at  04:58 PM

This is a good argument for superstores like WalMart, where there are too many customers for a guard to even think about following!

Just for the record, and again on the “have you ever been in the world, or done anything remotely reality-based in your life” track: following a single customer is equally easy, whether you’re ignoring 2 other customers or 200.

Comment #105: Well, what?  on  06/02  at  05:01 PM

Sorry. I realize you’re male and I’m female and you think that entitles you to my rapt attention and respect, but it does not.

Yet another example of a weak-willed woman poisoned by <a href=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOROvO2fxTc&feature=related”>Liberal Hollywood</b>.

Comment #106: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/02  at  05:06 PM

That link again. (Must remember to hit preview)

Comment #107: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/02  at  05:07 PM

(I wish I had hit preview there 8-) )

Comment #108: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/02  at  05:13 PM

Right, because you were born knowing everything.  Life is a learning process Sally, and I admit that I am still learning.  Believing that you know everything is the mark of a teenager…

Without empiricism, learning is a haphazard and sometimes counterproductive endeavor.

Comment #109: SallyStrange  on  06/02  at  05:17 PM

A Libertarian is just a Republican who wants to smoke pot, screw a hooker, stay home from church, and not be called an asshole by his fellow Republicans for it.

Comment #110: SouthernBeale  on  06/02  at  05:26 PM

I have been to many places of business and I have never once seen anyone kicked out based on their race/religion/etc.

Gee, apart from the fact that you’re not black/female/gay and not in a position to notice, do you think that this might have something to do with the fact that it is fucking illegal, due to the same laws you’re railing on about?

Comment #111: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/02  at  05:27 PM

Yes, that is exactly what I meant. That Wal-Mart has ONE, and only ONE minority customer.

I definitely didn’t mean that store security can easily choose a handful of customers to harass throughout a shift, and that it’s still racist if all of the three people security hassles “just happen to be” minorities.

I also like how even when you finally (after over 100 comments) submit to getting your facts straight, you find a way to blame someone else for your laziness and stupidity. You really are the very model of a modern major libertarian.

Comment #112: Well, what?  on  06/02  at  05:29 PM

Another, less sympathetic quote from the Pharyngula thread. This one’s from ‘Tis Himself, who is an economist by trade and really knows his shit.

“Initiation of force” is another libertarian newspeak term that does not mean what the uninitiated might think. Libertarians except defense of property and prosecution of fraud, and call them retaliatory force. But retaliation can be the initiation of force: I don’t need force to commit theft or fraud. This is a bit of rhetorical sleight of hand that libertarians like to play so that they can pretend they are different than government. You know: break a law (like not paying your taxes) and MEN WITH GUNS initiate force. Sorry, but you’ve gotta play fair: it can’t be initiation for government and retaliation for you.

Like most other non-pacifistic belief systems, libertarians want to initiate force for what they identify as their interests and call it righteous retaliation, and use the big lie technique to define everything else as evil “initiation of force”. They support the initial force that has already taken place in the formation of the system of property, and wish to continue to use force to perpetuate it and make it more rigid.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/06/oh_so_thats_what_the_libertari.php#comment-4038623

It’s a good discussion, if you are interested in learning more about libertarianism AND why it sucks, go there. Since anoNY2 isn’t really clear on what he believes in the first place, it’s not surprising that he’s doing such a crap job of defending his beliefs.

Also, anoNY2, your ignorance about the systemic discrimination faced by people of color in this country is a pretty strong indicator that you’re white. The fact that you didn’t correct Amanda when she said that you were male is a pretty strong indicator that you’re male. So come off it already.

Comment #113: SallyStrange  on  06/02  at  05:48 PM

Dangit my post disappeared. I was going to post this excellent critique of libertarianism, from a guy who’s actually an economist in real life, but instead I’ll just link to it.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/06/oh_so_thats_what_the_libertari.php#comment-4038623

Also, anoNY2, you didn’t correct Amanda when she said you were male, so it’s pretty safe to assume you’re male. And you’re ignorant about the systemic and subtle discrimination that people of color still face in the USA so it’s a pretty safe bet that you’re white. So come off it already.

Comment #114: SallyStrange  on  06/02  at  05:52 PM

Actually, I think the libertarian dogmatic line on this is that theft is always by force.

Yes, but we can also state that theft is always consensual, provided we get to define “consensual” in our very own special way…

Comment #115: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/02  at  06:23 PM

My point was that it isn’t now systemic.  After reading up on it due to the persistence of Mighty Ponygirl, it seems I was wrong, at least in part.  Plenty of studies show that discrimination while shopping happens to many minorities, mostly perpetrated by whites.

Contradicting yourself in one numbered point about something you admit you knew nothing about seems like an unfortunate choice of how to back down from your astounding wrongness.  As long as I’m suggesting words you Google, how about “graceful exit” or “classy apology”?

Comment #116: themmases  on  06/02  at  06:44 PM

I’m perplexed by how perplexed people here are about what libertarianism is. It just (a simplified version of) Liberalism as expressed in the Bill of Rights.

That’s why mainstream American Liberals are susceptible to being Goldwatered by those to their left when it comes to hate speech laws:  The ACLU’s position on Skokie (allowing Nazis to march in a Jewish town where holocaust survivors lived), Pastor Jones burning Korans in front of a Mosque, Westboro Church spewing anti-gay bigotry during soldiers funerals, etc. 

Since the utility argument is hard to make here, Liberals often rest their opposition to laws preventing such activity on a-priori principles and slippery slopes that may or may not be wet. Your more authoritarian but presumably more empathetic lefty brethren then accuse you of being doctrinaire and indifferent to non-state racism. Now you are the ones “holding tight to a delusion political philosophy that denies reality, human nature and common fucking sense.”

Ditto for the Patriot Act, where your opinion is closer to Rand than Obama. Except the RWing not the Left will call you delusional. So whats there not to understand? We have met the enemy and it is us.

Comment #117: Manju  on  06/02  at  07:06 PM

Some businesses probably would take advantage of their regained freedom, while others wouldn’t.  Can you really say that this would inevitably lead to a systematic denial of services?

The way you word it makes it crystal clear what version of libertarian you are. Businesses have “freedom” to regain, while black customers are SOL. Like all libertarians, you seem to have no problem at all with systemic discrimination against the masses, but let one property owner be inconvenienced and you get your tighty-whiteys in a wad. Libertarians never have a problem with trillions being flushed down the toilet on “defense”, but let one black kid get a grilled cheese with tax dollars and it’s the fucking Intolerable Acts all over again.

Comment #118: felagund  on  06/02  at  08:54 PM

The quality of the arguments against anoNY is highly varied—the essential thesis in this thread is that libertarians are not honest, perhaps even with themselves, about why they are libertarians.

I’d stick to that; don’t take anoNY’s words at face value, but also don’t twist them.  He’s saying what he’s saying.  The important thing is that his statements, like all libertarian statements, are fundamentally about increasing the power of powerful private actors at the expense of less powerful private actors.  That’s because in the male/female and rich/poor conflict, the history is one of private oppression, rather than just public oppression.

Comment #119: Punditus Maximus  on  06/02  at  09:21 PM

I’m perplexed by how perplexed people here are about what libertarianism is. It just (a simplified version of) Liberalism as expressed in the Bill of Rights.

No, Manju. Liberalism is liberalism as expressed in the Bill of Rights. Libertarianism is conservatism stripped of its occasional populist sops that emerged during the 20th century.

Comment #120: Tyro  on  06/02  at  09:41 PM

“No, Manju. Liberalism is liberalism as expressed in the Bill of Rights. Libertarianism is conservatism stripped of its occasional populist sops that emerged during the 20th century.”

I figure the quintessential libertarian is Ayn Rand’s admired psychopathic serial-killer in control of John D. Rockefeller’s oil monopoly before any progressive social advances…

Comment #121: MikeEss  on  06/02  at  09:52 PM

Tyro (171) and MikeEss (172),

Interestingly, the two of you contradict each other.

In Tyro’s version Libertarians are really just conservatives. Their liberty talk is a ruse like states rights. The principle of freedom-from government is used when convenient (against high taxes) and ignored when not (state discrimination like in same-sex-marriage.)

But for Mike, Rand is the go-to-girl for libertarianism. She however has the opposite problem of Paul. There’s very little compromise.  She couldn’t even vote for Reagan, hated WFBuckley,  and had nothing but disgust for social conservatives.

So wheras Paul is suspected of being in cahoots with the Right, Rand literally couldn’t stand to be in teh same room with them (she actually left a party rather dramatically when Buckley showed up).

Comment #122: Manju  on  06/02  at  10:12 PM

To be a good libertarian you need to believe that big governments are always repressive and businesses never are.

Comment #123: JohnL  on  06/02  at  10:43 PM

Really guys?  174 comments fighting with an obvious troll?

Comment #124: pasteymachine  on  06/02  at  11:34 PM

No, Manju, MikeEss and I are arguing the same thing: libertarianism is 19th century conservatism (ie, pre-progressive movement), but also even more sociopathic, given the Randian influence.

Comment #125: Tyro  on  06/03  at  12:29 AM

Since the utility argument is hard to make here, Liberals often rest their opposition to laws preventing such activity on a-priori principles and slippery slopes that may or may not be wet.

No, it is adhering to the 1st Amendment, which makes no exception for unpopular speech, at least as interpreted by our Supreme Court for the past century or more.

Your more authoritarian but presumably more empathetic lefty brethren then accuse you of being doctrinaire and indifferent to non-state racism.

No, it’s a recognition that the answer to unpopular speech is more speech.

Comment #126: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/03  at  12:45 AM

No, it is adhering to the 1st Amendment, which makes no exception for unpopular speech, at least as interpreted by our Supreme Court for the past century or more.

Well, the only way you get to that very interpretation is by way of a coalition of LW-liberals and RW-Libertarians making the arguments I cited above. Otherwise a coalition of more statist-lefties and authoritarian-conservatives could win the day.

After all, Fmr Justice John Paul Stevens sided with Alito in his Westboro dissent. Stevens himself dissented in the Flagburing case as would have Bork if he ever made it to the Bench. Recall the brief ReligiousRight & Radfem coalition who tried to outlaw porn? Libs and Libertarians came together to kick their sorry asses back to Liberty U and UC-Berkeley respectively.

The point is that the views of mainstream American Liberals // those of libertarians on some matters because we have a common ancestor of classical liberalism. But there are those further left who do not emerge from this philosophical tradition.

They see you as Rand Paul. (If Andrea Dworkin were alive today I’m sure she would be mocking those of you who oppose Hate Speech Laws in this manner. She was quite spirited.)

Comment #127: Manju  on  06/03  at  01:27 AM

“Rand Paul is a particularly egregious misogynist; he has literally claimed that the right to own a specific kind of lightbulb matters more than the right of a woman to control her fertility”

I was surprised to hear that, despite not being a Paul fan.  But then I checked the link and it was a complete fabrication - i.e. a lie.  He not only didn’t say anything remotely like it, he didn’t even oppose abortion (at least not in that instance - if he has, it’s a questionable view for a libertarian to hold.)

Freedom “from” is pretty much bullshit.  But apparently the constitution doesn’t matter too much.  I think it has a couple flaws too, but not including shit like that isn’t one of them.

Comment #128: Anonymouse  on  06/03  at  02:16 AM

@Comment #158: SallyStrange on 06/02 at 04:17 PM

Without empiricism, learning is a haphazard and sometimes counterproductive endeavor.

Sally, I’d make that even stronger: without empiricism, there is no learning at all. Because without empiricism, you will never realize when you are wrong.

 

Comment #129: atheist  on  06/03  at  06:38 AM

Late to this show, but…

This is why I capitalise the term Libertarian when I discuss these clowns—there are several varieties of pseudo-libertarians, but they’d all fail even the most mild purity test for the ideology.

There are plenty of Rotarian Socialists, who hate government—except when it subsidises them (the Kochs are a prominent example, but so is the “keep your gubmint hands off my medicare” types, too). There are anti-choicers (like Ron Paul) and anti-gay crusaders for liberty who are quite happy to poke their noses into the bedrooms and doctors’ offices of others. There are racists (like Charles Murray), who are fine with equal opportunity to prosper in the market so long as it excludes African-Americans (“why waste time with genetic inferiors?”) and Asians (“they’re already too smart—if anything they need to be held back”). There’s the sexist MRA and PUA contingents, who believe that relationships and sex are just cold economic transactions—ones which men should always “win” (the guy attacking Rep. Weiner seems to fall into this category). There are Prosperity Gospel Dominionists, who believe Jeebus will make them a bajillionaire if only they undermine the Establishment Clause. There are jingos who manage to hate the state but also love the military (so long as it’s killing dusky-skinned people). Lots of “going Galt” Nietschze-lite fantasists, too, who believe that their paradise would look like anything other than the Horn of Africa and who believe that they’d naturally come out on top (‘cause out-of-shape nerds always rule in brutal environments by dint of their intellectual superiority).

libertarianism is 19th century conservatism (ie, pre-progressive movement), but also even more sociopathic, given the Randian influence.

This is what it comes down to in practise, across the board: a return to the America of 1896, with robber barons and their bought-and-owned politicians, wars of choice that benefit trusts and other incumbent corps, vast income inequality, and anyone who isn’t a white, straight Protestant male kept in their place on the wrong side of that divide, etc. The Randian influence only confirms the aspect that corporate psychopaths were running the show.

Comment #130: Gracchus.  on  06/03  at  08:37 AM

The point is that the views of mainstream American Liberals // those of libertarians on some matters because we have a common ancestor of classical liberalism.

This is a pernicious myth picked up by young people in introductory political philosophy classes. It is only true in the sense that all of us in western society inherit the classical liberal tradition.

Liberalism is the descendant of classical liberalism, it’s just that the problems are different now than they were in the era of “classical liberalism,” so the solutions are different. Libertarianism’s economic vision owes a lot more to mercantilism which was itself what classical liberalism was trying to abolish.

After all, Fmr Justice John Paul Stevens sided with Alito in his Westboro dissent.

In the libertarian fantasy land, the police come in to beat and shoot the westboro protestors because they’re taking up space on the privately owned town/sidewalk, and the mayor/owner doesn’t want them there. There can be no “right” to public speech only because there are no public places.

Freedom “from” is pretty much bullshit.

This is one of the reasons I argued in the above Fox News thread that the deontological strain within libertarianism bears a big resemblance to a suicide cult.

Comment #131: Tyro  on  06/03  at  08:41 AM

http://www.randpaul2010.com/issues/a-g/abortion-2/

I am 100% pro life. I believe abortion is taking the life of an innocent human being.
I believe life begins at conception and it is the duty of our government to protect this life.

I will always vote for any and all legislation that would end abortion or lead us in the direction of ending abortion.

I believe in a Human Life Amendment and a Life at Conception Act as federal solutions to the abortion issue. I also believe that while we are working toward this goal, there are many other things we can accomplish in the near term.

This, plus the link amanda provided, makes it clear her assessment of this sick pig is correct.

How’s that metric ton of total Fail taste, Anonymouse?

 

Comment #132: Rare Vos  on  06/03  at  08:51 AM

<blockquote>The point is that the views of mainstream American Liberals // those of libertarians on some matters because we have a common ancestor of classical liberalism.<blockquote>

To be more accurate, the views of mainstream American liberals like myself are rooted across the board in the principles of Enlightenment liberalism—one that recognises social liberties and a balanced (as opposed to non-existent or extremely minimal) role for the state in the market.

As for Libertarians, those “some matters” (telling phrase, that) that happen to co-incide with social liberties do so only when it benefits them, personally. The rest is rationalisation and gloss. If you want to say that current Libertarians are rooted in “classical liberalism,” you should add a “neo-” as prefix.

Comment #133: Gracchus.  on  06/03  at  08:59 AM

I believe in a Human Life Amendment and a Life at Conception Act as federal solutions to the abortion issue.

Ah, one of America’s premier anti-statists: so hostile to one “onerous” federal amendment (the 14th) and yet so willing to pile on a new and far more intrusive one.

It’s a wonder his head doesn’t explode.

Comment #134: Gracchus.  on  06/03  at  09:11 AM

At one time I attempted to have rational conversations with “libertarians”. But I came to realize that their “deontological” approach (thanks, SallyStrange) was just a clever way of insulating themselves from any contrary argument, and even from reality itself. It doesn’t matter that a liberal points out the fallacy of your argument if you turn your politics into a religion. It doesn’t matter that the world constantly mocks your beliefs if you decide that this world is fallen.

So now I don’t even try to reason with “libertarians”, rather, I mock the absurdity of their beliefs. It’s just as effective, and more entertaining.

Comment #135: atheist  on  06/03  at  09:30 AM

Well, the only way you get to that very interpretation is by way of a coalition of LW-liberals and RW-Libertarians making the arguments I cited above. Otherwise a coalition of more statist-lefties and authoritarian-conservatives could win the day.

There have been those who have argued that “Congress shall make no law” leaves control of speech to state or local governments, but they are hardly “statist-lefties”.

After all, Fmr Justice John Paul Stevens sided with Alito in his Westboro dissent. Stevens himself dissented in the Flagburing case as would have Bork if he ever made it to the Bench. Recall the brief ReligiousRight & Radfem coalition who tried to outlaw porn? Libs and Libertarians came together to kick their sorry asses back to Liberty U and UC-Berkeley respectively.

Uh, no, you’re starting to get your facts wrong now, Manju:

The 8-1 decision in favor of the Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, Kan., was the latest in a line of court rulings that, as Chief Justice John Roberts said in his opinion for the court, protects “even hurtful speech on public issues to ensure that we do not stifle public debate.”

The decision ended a lawsuit by Albert Snyder, who sued church members for the emotional pain they caused by showing up at his son Matthew’s funeral. As they have at hundreds of other funerals, the Westboro members held signs with provocative messages, including “Thank God for dead soldiers,” `‘You’re Going to Hell,” `‘God Hates the USA/Thank God for 9/11,” and one that combined the U.S. Marine Corps motto, Semper Fi, with a slur against gay men.

Justice Samuel Alito, the lone dissenter, said Snyder wanted only to “bury his son in peace.” Instead, Alito said, the protesters “brutally attacked” Matthew Snyder to attract public attention. “Our profound national commitment to free and open debate is not a license for the vicious verbal assault that occurred in this case,” he said.

Westboro Baptist Church Wins Supreme Court Appeal Over Funeral Protests

Bork didn’t make it to the Bench because he didn’t believe in Roe Vs Wade or Griswold Vs. Conn.

The point is that the views of mainstream American Liberals // those of libertarians on some matters because we have a common ancestor of classical liberalism. But there are those further left who do not emerge from this philosophical tradition.

Stevens was only considered moderately liberal, and was a WWII vet, hardy a ‘far-Leftie’ who would believe in censorship in general.

You really have some ability to assimilate and regurgitate information, Manju, but you go crazily afar when you try to assert that the mainstream position on the 1st Amendment isn’t shared by liberals because of one Supreme Court Justice’s view on flag burning.

They see you as Rand Paul. (If Andrea Dworkin were alive today I’m sure she would be mocking those of you who oppose Hate Speech Laws in this manner. She was quite spirited.)

There were feminists who opposed Andrea Dworkin, did you know that?:

Feminists were strongly divided over the anti-pornography ordinance. Some feminists, such as Wendy McElroy, Ellen Willis, and Susie Bright, opposed anti-pornography feminism on principle. Many anti-pornography feminists supported the legislative efforts, but others—including Susan Brownmiller, Janet Gornick, and Wendy Kaminer—agreed with Dworkin and MacKinnon’s critique of pornography, but opposed the attempt to combat it through legislative campaigns, which they feared would be rendered ineffectual by the courts, would violate principles of free speech, or would harm the anti-pornography movement by taking organizing energy away from education and direct action and entangling it in political squabbles (Brownmiller 318-321).

The most vocal critic of Mackinnon and (Andrea) Dworkin’s rights-based approach to pornography is Ronald Dworkin who rejects the argument that the private consumption of pornography can be said to be a breach of women’s civil rights.[1] Ronald Dworkin states that the Ordinance rests on the “frightening principle that considerations of equality require that some people not be free to express their tastes or convictions or preferences anywhere.”[2] Dworkin also argues that the logic underpinning the Ordinance would threaten other forms of free speech.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipornography_Civil_Rights_Ordinance

 

 

Comment #136: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/03  at  09:43 AM

You really have some ability to assimilate and regurgitate information, Manju, but you go crazily afar when you try to assert that the mainstream position on the 1st Amendment isn’t shared by liberals because of one Supreme Court Justice’s view on flag burning.

Manju has a very fixed narrative in his head along the lines that both Democrats and Republicans equally hold racist and authoritarian impulses, and all facts get shoehorned into this forced narrative of his. He consistently holds to this narrative in the face of all countervailing facts. He makes that argument about the 1st Amendment because it’s what he believes, and the thread he hangs on to is John Paul Stevens’ decision back in 1989… not because the decision leads him to a conclusion, but because he has a fixed conclusion he needs to believe.

Comment #137: Tyro  on  06/03  at  10:04 AM

It is only true in the sense that all of us in western society inherit the classical liberal tradition.

Some political philosophers explicitly reject Liberalism. Marx for instance rejects the idea of free will in favor of economic determinism, and therefore undermines Liberalism’s foundation. Libertarianism does no such thing.

In the libertarian fantasy land, the police come in to beat and shoot the westboro protestors because they’re taking up space on the privately owned town/sidewalk, and the mayor/owner doesn’t want them there. There can be no “right” to public speech only because there are no public places.

I don’t know what you’re talking about. Do you have a cite from a libertarian that exemplifies this view?

Comment #138: Manju  on  06/03  at  10:11 AM

There have been those who have argued that “Congress shall make no law” leaves control of speech to state or local governments, but they are hardly “statist-lefties”.

Right. The anti-federalists. Those would be among the RW-authoritarians I referenced earlier. LW-authoritarians don’t use that argument. They have other ones. Catherine MacKinnon for instance argues that certain speech is tantamount to discrimination. It’s a very influential theory, particularly outside of the US where the anti-liberal Left is stronger.

Uh, no, you’re starting to get your facts wrong now, Manju:

What did I get wrong? Nothing you posted appears to contradict what I said.

Bork didn’t make it to the Bench because he didn’t believe in Roe Vs Wade or Griswold Vs. Conn.

Ok. All I said was that he believes flag-burning is not constitutionally protected. Is that wrong?

but you go crazily afar when you try to assert that the mainstream position on the 1st Amendment isn’t shared by liberals because of one Supreme Court Justice’s view on flag burning.

WTF? I said the precise opposite:

The point is that the views of mainstream American Liberals // those of libertarians

mainstream American Liberals are susceptible to being Goldwatered by those to their left when it comes to hate speech laws:

There were feminists who opposed Andrea Dworkin, did you know that?:

If I didn’t know that how in the world could I have concluded that Dworkin would’ve mocked them as “Rand Paul” if she were alive today? (Back in the day I recall her using the term “free-speech fundamentalists’ to associate you with the religious right…which is rather rich if you consider the actual political alignment was the precise opposite).

“Feminists were strongly divided over the anti-pornography ordinance.”

Right. This division is an example of what I’m pointing out.

Comment #139: Manju  on  06/03  at  10:49 AM

Manju, you moron, the fact you got wrong was that only justice who dissented was Alito, not Alito and Stevens as you claimed.  The cite was then provided due to your history of “na-ah, ur wrong!”

Comment #140: helen w. h.  on  06/03  at  11:18 AM

What did I get wrong? Nothing you posted appears to contradict what I said.

After all, Fmr Justice John Paul Stevens sided with Alito in his Westboro dissent

Justice Samuel Alito, the lone dissenter, said Snyder wanted only to “bury his son in peace.”

You omitted the fact that even die-hard conservatives on the SCOTUS voted against Alito, and the Wiki on Stevens makes it clear that his views on freedom of speech have changed, sp he’s hardly a bastion of consistent thinking on 1st Amendment issues.

Stevens wasn’t on the court, at the time anyway so I don’t see the relevance of “he sided with Alito” in the first place.

Right. The anti-federalists. Those would be among the RW-authoritarians I referenced earlier. LW-authoritarians don’t use that argument. They have other ones. Catherine MacKinnon for instance argues that certain speech is tantamount to discrimination. It’s a very influential theory, particularly outside of the US where the anti-liberal Left is stronger.

Yes, well the anti-Liberal Left in this country doesn’t really exist unless you count anarchists and the like, Catherine MacKinnon isn’t taken seriously in the US on the Left, so your point is?

If I didn’t know that how in the world could I have concluded that Dworkin would’ve mocked them as “Rand Paul” if she were alive today?

There are very few feminists who agree with her on that one, so she’d be busy if she weren’t already dead.

Back in the day I recall her using the term “free-speech fundamentalists’ to associate you with the religious right…which is rather rich if you consider the actual political alignment was the precise opposite).

No, what was rich was the alliance between anti-porn forces on the Fundamentalist Right making common cause with feminists like Andrew Dworkin and Catherine MacKinnon to ban porn, in the spirit of the WWII alliance between America, Britain and the USSR against fascism in Germany and Italy.

Oh, and the comment about libertarian fantasy land was clearly sarcasm and snark, which you don’t seem to understand as a concept for some strange reason….............

Comment #141: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/03  at  11:27 AM

Not so strange, agreed.

Comment #142: helen w. h.  on  06/03  at  11:38 AM

Worth noting, mind, that “liberal” only means that in North America. In the EU, “liberal” is used in the sense of classical liberalism, and is generally set a good few steps to the right of a positions such as that held by Amanda, which most likely be considered “social democratic”. (Just while we’re being picky about labels, y’see.)

Comment #143: Finnegan  on  06/03  at  12:21 PM

@Manju: Not only did Marx not reject free will in favor of economic determinism, he explicitly called those of his intellectual opponents on the Left who did do this ‘vulgar materialists’.

You know, because they had such a simplistic mind that they assumed if there existed a large scale social phenomena like capitalism that exerted pressures on all social actors it automatically meant that individual actors themselves had no free will but were merely the pawns of such forces.

Kind of like someone else on this thread. Except I might call that one a ‘vulgar idealist’.

Comment #144: BlackBloc  on  06/03  at  12:31 PM

Some political philosophers explicitly reject Liberalism. Marx for instance rejects the idea of free will in favor of economic determinism, and therefore undermines Liberalism’s foundation. Libertarianism does no such thing.

True for the most part—Libertarians operate on a whole other set of fantasies, ones that are evidenced (unlike those you claim of Marx) in their rhetoric and policy positions.

There are exceptions to your claim that Libertarians reject determinism, of course. For example, racist Libertarians like Charles Murray are very big on genetic determinism as it applies to various markets (particularly education, which is the gateway to economic mobility in this country). In that, they’re following to a certain extent in the late 19th century tradition of neoclassical liberals who espoused social Darwinism—the same tradition of neoclassical liberalism which informs modern American Libertarian ideologies.

Either way, this is why (despite your strained variant on the bogus “World’s Shortest Political Quiz”), American liberals really don’t have all that much in common with Libertarians. The neoCon variety of Libertarians (the ones that hate big government but love a big military) don’t call us “the reality-based community” for nothing.

Trying to equate liberals and Libertarians is just as silly as trying to equate UC Berkeley with Liberty University. The levels of fantasy-based ideology prevalent in both of the latter cases are just too glaring to ignore.

Comment #145: Gracchus.  on  06/03  at  12:51 PM

Oh, and the comment about libertarian fantasy land was clearly sarcasm and snark

As with all fantasy ideologies, our snarky scenario veers into earnest belief for the Libertarian.

Fist, Libertarians are well-known to be hostile, for one reason or another, to the idea of state-operated public accommodations, accessible to all. If such places (e.g. libraries, schools, hospitals, pavements, roads, etc.) must exist, they should be privatised as much as possible and/or turned into profitable enterprises. This is especially true, I’ll note, in the case of prisons. Large subsets of Libertarians really like the idea of for-profit prisons.

Second, Libertarians are also foremost amongst the cheerleaders whenever the owner of a privately-owned public accommodation (e.g. a shopping mall or a lunch counter) chooses to clamp down on free speech and expression. “The owner’s space, the owner’s rules” is their usual justification. The only exception is when the venue in question is at a private university where a wingnut like Coulter has had a speaking invitation revoked—then it’s all First Amendment and “lefty-wing ivory-tower thugs” and “help, help I’m being oppressed!”

Put those two trends of thought together, and one arrives at the Libertarian fantasy land described. Every town a company town!

Right. This division is an example of what I’m pointing out.

You’re not arguing that Libertarians don’t divide over the same issue, are you? There are plenty of prominent Xtianists who style themselves Libertarians who always pop up to talk about how an exception to the First Amendment should be made for porn, in the name of “family values” or the ever-popular “for the chillllldreennnn!”

Comment #146: Gracchus.  on  06/03  at  12:57 PM

Sally, I’d make that even stronger: without empiricism, there is no learning at all. Because without empiricism, you will never realize when you are wrong.

Quibbling a bit here: If the things you are learning are flat-out wrong, you’re still learning them. You have absorbed new information—it’s just false information.

I’ve been reading Michael Shermer’s The Believing Brain and it’s very good—I’m on the chapter where he explains that evolutionary pressures have given us a brain that’s more likely to make type A errors—false positives—than type B errors—false negatives. In other words, we are prone to see patterns and imagine agency where there is none. Our brains are constantly learning, but evolution didn’t give us a very good bullshit detector, largely because the cost of imagining patterns where there none is small in evolutionary terms.

Comment #147: SallyStrange  on  06/03  at  01:50 PM

When talking about “anti-pornography feminists” you should keep in mind that they use a very specific definition of pornography:

The civil rights ordinance characterizes pornography as a form of “sex discrimination” and defines “pornography” as “the graphic sexually explicit subordination of women through pictures and/or words,” when combined with one of several other conditions.

  1. “Pornography” means the graphic sexually explicit subordination of women through pictures and/or words that also includes one or more of the following:

      a. women are presented dehumanized as sexual objects, things or commodities; or
      b. women are presented as sexual objects who enjoy humiliation or pain; or
      c. women are presented as sexual objects experiencing sexual pleasure in rape, incest, or other sexual assault; or
      d. women are presented as sexual objects tied up or cut up or mutilated or bruised or physically hurt; or
      e. women are presented in postures or positions of sexual submission, servility, or display; or
      f. women’s body parts-including but not limited to vaginas, breasts, or buttocks-are exhibited such that women are reduced to those parts; or
      g. women are presented being penetrated by objects or animals; or
      h. women are presented in scenarios of degradation, humiliation, injury, torture, shown as filthy or inferior, bleeding, bruised or hurt in a context that makes these conditions sexual.

  2. The use of men, children, or transsexuals in the place of women in (a)-(h) of this definition is also pornography for purposes of this law.
  3. “Person” shall include child or transsexual.

Outlawing forms of speech is not the way I would go about it, but given the stench of misogyny in pornography then, and even now, I can sympathize with an effort to differentiate sick sexist porn from erotica and basically stomp the former into a stain in the dirt. 

The pain and suffering women have endured for men’s sexual gratification is by no means trivial, and most pornography just ties it together and enables a philosophy of gleeful misogyny.

Comment #148: oldfeminist  on  06/03  at  02:13 PM

If the free market would lead to all sorts of magical results and true freedom and equality…if it would keep corporations and small business owners from polluting/discriminating/ruining it for everybody…if you don’t need a government to ensure and enforce fairness….well, then what is stopping businesses from doing those things right now?

Why fight the EPA unless you actively want to pollute the environment? Why fight the creation of a consumer protection agency unless you really do want to screw over the consumer as much as possible? Why fight to end any and all regulations and recriminations for your bad behavior unless you really and truly want to behave badly

I was reading Thomas Frank’s The Wrecking Crew: How Conservative’s Rule not that long ago, and there were extensive, horrifying chapters on conservative’s holy fights for the defense of South African Apartheid as a perfect Libertarian state in the 80’s and 90’s. Right now, they’re still praising the human rights violations in the Marianas as the type of thing we should be instituting in the US (in fact, they’ve made sure US human rights laws don’t apply to the Marianas). In both cases a perfectly libertarian government has led to (and is defending tooth and claw) a society built on a permanently disenfranchised underclass who are economic slaves in everything but name. Libertarianism, when it is practiced exactly the way libertarians claim it has never been tried, is nothing but a sociopathic ideology of might makes right.

Comment #149: Egnu Cledge  on  06/03  at  02:16 PM

Outlawing forms of speech is not the way I would go about it, but given the stench of misogyny in pornography then, and even now, I can sympathize with an effort to differentiate sick sexist porn from erotica and basically stomp the former into a stain in the dirt. 

Using those definitions, 1(e), 1(g) and 2 can be used to ban:

- Depictions of the missionary position (position of sexual submission by the woman)
- Depictions of the cowgirl position (position of sexual submission by the man)
- Your average girly pinup or its male beefcake equivalent (posture of sexual display)
- Any depiction of masturbation with a dildo or vibrator.

ontrast it with this.

Comment #150: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/03  at  03:30 PM

Just because one person is on top of another doesn’t mean the one on the bottom is “submitting.”

Posture of sexual display, I’ll give you that, assuming it’s because the person wants sex and not because they are commanded to do so by someone else, which is probably what they were trying to get at.

Masturbation with an item is not the same as having someone poke something into you for their enjoyment regardless of what it does for you.

In short, I imagine you know what sick sexist porn is.  Part of the problem is in defining it without including non-sick, non-sexist porn, even if it were a good idea to outlaw it.  Which it isn’t, not least because of the difficulty in defining it well.

But thanks for making the obvious reply that makes it quite clear that pointing out the flaws in trying to define something so soul-destroying is more important to you than what actually does to women to have the majority of material men masturbate to be disgusting crap that denies female autonomy, sexuality, or even humanity.

My point was that the group termed “anti-porn feminists” are not necessarily women who hate sex or even erotica or what might be called “porn” by others.  They hate misogynistic porn, and recognize the damage it can cause the people who participate and the way it can warp the minds of those who consume it.

Comment #151: oldfeminist  on  06/03  at  04:11 PM

Your statute says “a publication is objectionable if it describes, depicts, expresses, or otherwise deals with matters such as sex, horror, crime, cruelty, or violence in such a manner that the availability of the publication is likely to be injurious to the public good.”

I’m sure no one could argue in bad faith with that broad a brush to paint with.  The supposed public good could have something to do with not having little girls run away from home, even if they turn out to be 19 years old and perfectly capable of deciding they want to live on their own and have sex and maybe a baby.  It really depends on who defines this public good.

Comment #152: oldfeminist  on  06/03  at  04:19 PM

“This is one of the reasons I argued in the above Fox News thread that the deontological strain within libertarianism bears a big resemblance to a suicide cult.”

Well, knock yourself out.  I’m sure it exists but I don’t associate with it.

Rare Vos - lol.  I wouldn’t know; I don’t care about Paul and if he ever seems to have any chance of winning the White House I’d certainly oppose him.  Including on abortion.

Doesn’t change the face that the link did not remotely support the claim made.  It was still, in fact, a lie.

Comment #153: Anonymouse  on  06/03  at  05:03 PM

  I’m sure it exists but I don’t associate with it.

Do you self-identify as a libertarian? Then you’re fucking associated with it.

Comment #154: SallyStrange  on  06/03  at  05:50 PM

Manju, you moron, the fact you got wrong was that only justice who dissented was Alito, not Alito and Stevens as you claimed.  The cite was then provided due to your history of “na-ah, ur wrong!”

helen w. h. you moron,

“Fmr Justice John Paul Stevens sided with Alito in his Westboro dissent” (does not =) Stevens was on the bench and dissented, as the word “Fmr” indicates.

It means Stevens said this:

“It might interest you to know that if I were still an active justice, I would have joined [Alito’s] powerful dissent in the recent case holding that the intentional infliction of severe emotional harm is constitutionally protected speech.”

Comment #155: Manju  on  06/03  at  05:54 PM

Yes, well the anti-Liberal Left in this country doesn’t really exist unless you count anarchists and the like, Catherine MacKinnon isn’t taken seriously in the US on the Left, so your point is?

My point is mainstream American Liberals are susceptible to the same arguments used against Libertarians, and that is one way for liberals to understand this otherwise strange (to you) phenomena of Libertarianism.

That these arguments emanate from the far-left or from non-US sources doesn’t change this point. I kinda agree with you that the “anti-Liberal Left in this country doesn’t really exist” and I hope to keep it that way, but I didn’t restrict the discussion to mainstream philosophies or to American ones.

I do think you underestimate MacKinnon. She did almost singlehandedly define sexual harassment law in this country. And “doesn’t really exist” is a bit of an exaggeration given the academic prominence of schools of thought like Critical Legal Studies. Such ideologies would seriously roll back our 1st amendment rights if they ever achieved power. So maybe “isn’t really in power” would be a better wording.

There are very few feminists who agree with her on that one, so she’d be busy if she weren’t already dead.

Well, just a few hours ago you cited this:

Feminists were strongly divided over the anti-pornography ordinance…Many anti-pornography feminists supported the legislative efforts..(Brownmiller 318-321).

No, what was rich was the alliance between anti-porn forces on the Fundamentalist Right making common cause with feminists like Andrew Dworkin and Catherine MacKinnon to ban porn

Yeah, that’s what I meant. Dworkin mocks you (mainstream American Left) for being philosophically like the Religious Right (“Free-Speech Fundamentalists”). But in reality she was the one in an actual alliance. History trumps ideology imo…so if you align with evil that is more significant than having theoretical similarities to it.  (Although the alignment may be necessitated by realpolitik as you point out…US alignment with USSR in WWII, etc.)

Oh, and the comment about libertarian fantasy land was clearly sarcasm and snark, which you don’t seem to understand as a concept for some strange reason….............

Oh, You got me!

Comment #156: Manju  on  06/03  at  06:56 PM

sally, you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about.  Be more interesting.

Comment #157: Anonymouse  on  06/03  at  06:57 PM

“I do think you underestimate MacKinnon. She did almost singlehandedly define sexual harassment law in this country.”

She really does have some fairly astonishing accomplishments under her belt.  It certainly took intelligence to accomplish them - and I got a kick out of her saying/laughing about congress that because of hers and other legal arguments regarding the VAWA and so forth, they just didn’t realize what they were passing.  She knew they were pretty stupid.

Just remember, manju, it was QUALITY sarcasm wink

Comment #158: Anonymouse  on  06/03  at  07:01 PM

My point is mainstream American Liberals are susceptible to the same arguments used against Libertarians, and that is one way for liberals to understand this otherwise strange (to you) phenomena of Libertarianism.

Nobody said that Libertarianism was strange.

That these arguments emanate from the far-left or from non-US sources doesn’t change this point.

That those arguments only come from far-left Stalinists or from non-US sources means that they’re mostly irrelevant in terms of American discourse.

I kinda agree with you that the “anti-Liberal Left in this country doesn’t really exist” and I hope to keep it that way, but I didn’t restrict the discussion to mainstream philosophies or to American ones

No, you just pull stuff out your ass when it suits you in the discussion to make some sort of point.

What’s your point again?

Well, just a few hours ago you cited this:

Can your mind encompass that a reference to how feminists felt about something in the past might not be true today?

Dworkin mocks you (mainstream American Left) for being philosophically like the Religious Right (“Free-Speech Fundamentalists”).

She was an idiot about somethings, and there were a lot of folks on the Religious Right who objected to flag burning, unlike us mainstream American Left, so your point again, is what?

But in reality she was the one in an actual alliance. History trumps ideology imo…so if you align with evil that is more significant than having theoretical similarities to it.  (Although the alignment may be necessitated by realpolitik as you point out…US alignment with USSR in WWII, etc.)

As I pointed out, it was Dworkin and MacKinnon who aligned with the anti-porn religious types, not us mainstream Left liberal types with the a-p rt.

Oh, You got me!

Your point again, is what?

Comment #159: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/03  at  07:35 PM

Second, Libertarians are also foremost amongst the cheerleaders whenever the owner of a privately-owned public accommodation (e.g. a shopping mall or a lunch counter) chooses to clamp down on free speech and expression. “The owner’s space, the owner’s rules” is their usual justification.

That forced speech is a violation of the 1st is mainstream legal theory. Freedom of speech includes the right not to say something. It protects the people from the government forcing you to provide a platform for speech you don’t approve of.

Take this hypothetical:  Amanda bans me from commentating on Pandagon because I’m too good-looking. I then get a local Judge to order my return. As the law stands today that would violate Amanda’s first amendment rights. Pandagon may be “privately owned” or even a “public accommodation”. It doesn’t matter.

You are correct though that Libertarians would extend these rights out to “non-expressive” associations like bars or shops. Some liberals would too. Others think such rights fall under the lower protected doctrine of “Commercial speech”. This is an evolving aspect of free-speech jurisprudence but the trend is toward a libertarian ideal. As Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein pointed out earlier, the actual text of the first makes no exception. 

The only exception is when the venue in question is at a private university where a wingnut like Coulter has had a speaking invitation revoked—then it’s all First Amendment and “lefty-wing ivory-tower thugs” and “help, help I’m being oppressed!”

Off the top of my head I recall David Horowitz making this argument and then maybe some commentators on blogs. But I can’t think of any libertarian lawyer or scholar invoking the first amendment when a private university restricts speech. Only when a public one does is it a constitutional issue.

FIRE is the go-to organization here and that is their position. When private Universities restrict speech they are susceptible to lawsuits based on a contractual obligation to protect academic freedom. They are free to not enter into that contract (like say Liberty University does) but if they promise a level of free speech then they must deliver it.

The fight against such censorship is one of the highpoints of the American RightWing.

Comment #160: Manju  on  06/03  at  07:46 PM

That forced speech is a violation of the 1st is mainstream legal theory. Freedom of speech includes the right not to say something. It protects the people from the government forcing you to provide a platform for speech you don’t approve of.

Except when you have a facility open to the public:

<blockquote>In American constitutional law, the Pruneyard is famous for its role in establishing two important rules:

  under the California Constitution, individuals may peacefully exercise their right to free speech in parts of private shopping centers regularly held open to the public, subject to reasonable regulations adopted by the shopping centers
  under the U.S. Constitution, states can provide their citizens with broader rights in their constitutions than under the federal Constitution, so long as those rights do not infringe on any federal constitutional rights</b>blockquote>


Amanda bans me from commentating on Pandagon because I’m too good-looking. I then get a local Judge to order my return. As the law stands today that would violate Amanda’s first amendment rights. Pandagon may be “privately owned” or even a “public accommodation”. It doesn’t matter.

Except that Pandagon isn’t a shopping center that is regularly held open to the public.

As Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein pointed out earlier, the actual text of the first makes no exception.

But there have been other exceptions like regulation of commercial speech, libel and slander made to the First Amendment as well.

The fight against such censorship is one of the highpoints of the American RightWing.

Like a gopher mound on a prairie in Kansas, I would say.

Comment #161: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/03  at  07:54 PM

But thanks for making the obvious reply that makes it quite clear that pointing out the flaws in trying to define something so soul-destroying is more important to you than what actually does to women to have the majority of material men masturbate to be disgusting crap that denies female autonomy, sexuality, or even humanity.

Missed the little bit where I provided something I considered far more reasonable, huh?

Comment #162: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/03  at  08:19 PM

That those arguments only come from far-left Stalinists…means that they’re mostly irrelevant in terms of American discourse.

Mackinnon and Dworkin are Stalinists now? Not to mention Derick Bell or Cass Sunstein (Hate Speech) or entire schools of thought that put the restricting frees speech in play, like Deconstruction and Critical Legal Studies. Is Joe McCarthy commentating here?

That those arguments only come…from non-US sources means that they’re mostly irrelevant in terms of American discourse.

The American left isn’t influenced by non-American thinkers? Has Isolationism returned to the Democratic Party? I didn’t get the memo.

Be that as it may, I referenced 4 US thinkers and 2 schools of thought above for you to chew on. Stalin did have great hair so the crew above is not without their charms.

Can your mind encompass that a reference to how feminists felt about something in the past might not be true today?

You cited a credible source demonstrating that many feminists agreed with Dworkin & Co. Your 180 contained no such evidence. I hope your right but it could be wishful thinking.

As I pointed out, it was Dworkin and MacKinnon who aligned with the anti-porn religious types, not us mainstream Left liberal types with the a-p rt.

No, that’s what I pointed out. You keep repeating this as if I disagree.

Comment #163: Manju  on  06/03  at  08:48 PM

So what, Gloria Steinem, Susan Brownmiller and Robin Morgan (“Porn is the theory; rape is the practice”) weren’t/aren’t leftist feminists?  Alan Dershowitz even said “The worst censors in the country were the feminists.”  A lot of the second-wave feminists are underground net-wise (/b/ had something to do with that) but they still believe what they believed, and they’re not conservatives lol. 

Ah well; I shouldn’t butt in in the middle - just seems weird, when it’s so easy to remember the movement that was spawned by Deep Throat and so forth.  Jeez, Gloria Steinem was HUGE when I was young, as was, obviously, Deep Throat.

Comment #164: Anonymouse  on  06/03  at  09:29 PM

Mackinnon and Dworkin are Stalinists now? Not to mention Derick Bell or Cass Sunstein (Hate Speech) or entire schools of thought that put the restricting frees speech in play, like Deconstruction and Critical Legal Studies. Is Joe McCarthy commentating here?

Cass Sunstein has written disapprovingly of people eating ice cream in public, and isn’t taken seriously outside of academia:

Cass, however, is the kind of guy who could swallow a pepperoni stick without gagging—just look at the record:  roughly twelve gazillion articles and books on legal issues and behavioral psychology’s relationship to the law. In fact Cass Sunstein is such a prolific Middlebrow in his field that there’s even a joke among his colleagues that Cass is the Kevin Bacon of legal journals. You know, because every legal academic has either done an article with Cass, or done an article with someone who’s done and article with Cass… Seriously, in the lounges, that Kevin Bacon joke really bowls ‘em over. And please don’t mention anything to them about how they’re about three decades late with that joke. They are tenured academics, after all—show some sensitivity, please!

............................................................................................
Speaking of that, Samantha’s new husband Cass put out his most popular book yet last year, called “Nudge.” See, he’s a “paternalistic libertarian” who thinks the way to make America work is not to tell people what to do, but to–yes, that’s right–”nudge” them to the right thing. (Sort of like how Cass “nudged” his wizened ex-partner Martha out of his life for the tight-skinned Samantha–supposedly, in keeping with the retro-70s horribleness, Cass and Martha and Samantha are all pals still.) Anyway, Cass’s big breakthrough, the thing that got Obama’s attention, is that Cass believes that government should nudge The People gently, and that way, The People will make the right choices but feel they’ve done it on their own. Because deep down, Americans will do the right thing if you just show them the way without pushing them too hard. Reverend—I mean Dr. Sunstein uses examples like 401Ks and organ donor cards to make his example. (You have to wonder if Sunstein stole this brilliant theory from a third grader’s civics class report.) Like his wife Samantha, Cass has to make exceptions for just about every horrible thing that human beings do in order to make his theory work. So he makes those exceptions, and voila! Everyone agrees that it works! It’s a hit! Now Cass and Samantha are a Washington Power Couple. Wow, I just gotta get their cards!

All the Presidents’ Middle-Brows

Yep, sounds like a serious thinker, if your standard is low enough.

And yes, putting restrictions based on “Critical Theory” may or may not be Stalinist, but is certainly bullshit.

The American left isn’t influenced by non-American thinkers? Has Isolationism returned to the Democratic Party? I didn’t get the memo.

There’s a lot of things you don’t get Manju.

I didn’t say that it wasn’t influenced by non-American ideas in general, so please don’t be so blatantly dishonest and stupid in your next reply as to think I’m stupid enough to take your rhetoric at face value.

Derrick Bell a great thinker?  He’s not even a lawyer, for crying out loud.

Derrick A. Bell, Jr. (born November 6, 1930) is a visiting professor of Constitutional Law at New York University School of Law for the past 15 years and a major figure within the legal studies discipline of Critical Race Theory. He has not been accepted into the Bar of any state and is not, nor has ever been, licensed to practice law

Be that as it may, I referenced 4 US thinkers and 2 schools of thought above for you to chew on.


Thanks for educating a mere unwashed college graduate with only a BA in Biology, obviously I don’t have the mind that can handle complicated issues as you’ve failed to do time and time again.

You cited a credible source demonstrating that many feminists agreed with Dworkin & Co. Your 180 contained no such evidence. I hope your right but it could be wishful thinking.

She’s mostly mentioned today to lump in Amanda and other feminists as being “anti-sex”, which of course is a bit of an oversimplification, but she really has nobody advocating her POV much these days.

Comment #165: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/03  at  09:43 PM

Amanda bans me from commentating on Pandagon because I’m too good-looking. I then get a local Judge to order my return. As the law stands today that would violate Amanda’s first amendment rights. Pandagon may be “privately owned” or even a “public accommodation”. It doesn’t matter.

Except that Pandagon isn’t a shopping center that is regularly held open to the public.
Comment #212: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein on 06/03 at 07:54 PM

And anti-discrimination laws are limited to certain protected categories.  “Good-looking” is not one of them.

Comment #166: oldfeminist  on  06/03  at  09:45 PM

Missed the little bit where I provided something I considered far more reasonable, huh?
Comment #213: Phoenician in a time of Romans on 06/03 at 08:19 PM

I guess you didn’t read the very next comment I made, then, didja?  Where I pointed out it looks more reasonable but is also vague enough to allow it to be used for anything anyone doesn’t like?

Comment #167: oldfeminist  on  06/03  at  09:48 PM

Take this hypothetical:  Amanda bans me from commentating on Pandagon because I’m too good-looking. I then get a local Judge to order my return. As the law stands today that would violate Amanda’s first amendment rights. Pandagon may be “privately owned” or even a “public accommodation”. It doesn’t matter.

The judge wouldn’t order your return, because Pandagon (and any on-line forum) is more akin to a private club, complete with registrations. This site is not a public accommodation, no matter how liberal Pandagon’s policies are. The hypothetical is irrelevant.

Bars and shops don’t become public fora, either,  until they try to discriminate against particular groups while claiming the privileges of public accommodations. At that point, they inadvertently open themselves up to become protest venues. This is why I mentioned the historical example of lunch counters.

Shopping malls are given special status because they fill the traditional role of the agora, which is a public forum as well as a place of commerce that accommodates the general public. Similarly, a private university’s campus commons is considered more of a public forum than its lecture halls.

Off the top of my head I recall David Horowitz making this argument and then maybe some commentators on blogs. But I can’t think of any libertarian lawyer or scholar invoking the first amendment when a private university restricts speech.

Attorneys know better than to turn themselves into laughingstocks amongst their colleagues, but at the myriad of fake universities set up by conservatives, and at owned-and-operated faculties at schools like George Mason self-described scholars (some with legitimate credentials, some who are shams) use exactly that kind of rhetoric. In the media, you get the same nonsense not only at places like Clownhall and Reichstate, but also from MSM pundits and panelists who come out of the wingnut welfare apparatus.

The extremely selective fight against such censorship is one of the highpoints of the American RightWing.

Fixed that for you—as Dark Avenger notes, you’re damning them with faint praise. Compare with that eeeevil liberal organisation the ACLU, which defends the First Amendment rights everyone from anarchists and Marxists to the KKK and Nazis. That’s the difference: liberals are consistent because they’re focused on defending the Constitution; Libertarians aren’t because they’re focused on trying to win a debate.

Comment #168: Gracchus.  on  06/03  at  11:36 PM

Cass Sunstein has written disapprovingly of people eating ice cream in public

You’re thinking about Leon Kass, Prince Bush’s medical policy advisor. But I wouldn’t be surprised to discover that Cass Sunstein also frowns on the hoi polloi eating in public.

Comment #169: Gracchus.  on  06/03  at  11:50 PM

Compare with that eeeevil liberal organisation the ACLU, which defends the First Amendment rights everyone from anarchists and Marxists to the KKK and Nazis. That’s the difference:

Compare who with the ACLU? You left the other side blank. FIRE, the organization I referenced?

They are the premier group fighting campus censorship and are generally associated with the RW and Libertarianism too, although they have mainstream Liberal input as well. While most of their cases involve Lefties censoring RWingers, that reflects the power dynamic on the American campus as well as the censorious nature of the very faction of the Left I’ve been citing on this thread.

But they most certainly do side with LW professors and students whose 1st amendment or contractual free-speech rights are being violated by the Academy.  For instance, according to wiki:

FIRE supported Linda McCarriston, a poet, professor and self-described socialist at the University of Alaska Anchorage, in a case in which the University was investigating her for a poem she had published on sexual abuse involving Native Alaskans. In explicit response to FIRE’s intervention, University of Alaska President Mark Hamilton ordered that the investigation cease on constitutional grounds, stating that “there was nothing to investigate”; he was formally commended for defending academic freedom by Democratic governor Tony Knowles and by unanimous vote of both houses of the Alaska legislature

If you check their website you’ll see some active cases involving RWing suppression of LW thought. Here’s one:

The Catholic University of America (CUA) denied official approval to a group of students wishing to start a campus chapter of the NAACP. Despite university policies that protect student freedoms of dissent and expression, CUA argued that the existence of two other minority groups on campus made the group unnecessary. Facing pressure from FIRE and a threat of litigation from the NAACP, CUA finally decided to officially recognize the campus chapter.

 

Comment #170: Manju  on  06/04  at  01:34 AM

In practice, the United States the implementation of the 1st amendment as we know of it today took a long time to be accepted by the courts. It wasn’t that long ago when gay-themed literature or information on family planning was subject to censorship. “Libertarians” as we know of them today were not involved in this process of creating a more expansive view of the 1st amendment. Rather, they merely took advantage of the expansive status quo and concentrated their energies on opposing Nixon’s intervention in the economy and then later concentrated on tax cuts.

The were not liberal in any sense of the word in that they actually cared about or advocated for more social freedom—they simply were content to avail themselves of those freedoms once they were already available.

Comment #171: Tyro  on  06/04  at  10:39 AM

The Catholic University case was about abortion, not civil rights.  NAACP got their chapter in only after they agreed not to advocate for abortion rights, so they didn’t actually achieve “free speech” after all.  You wouldn’t really know that if you only read the handpicked stories on the FIRE website, though.

http://www.newswithviews.com/NWVexclusive/exclusive24.htm

While most of their cases involve Lefties censoring RWingers, that reflects the power dynamic on the American campus as well as the censorious nature of the very faction of the Left I’ve been citing on this thread.

Actually they seem to handpick the anti-abortion and pro-racist cases.  This was one rare example where the two collided, so they chose anti-abortion, as they do with a lot of other cases.

For example, there was an evangelist student group at Tufts who refused to allow a gay member, oops, gay member who wouldn’t say being gay is a sin, oh that’s totally different!  Never mind.

It’s just convenient how *all* the cases FIRE supports are a particular kind.  ACLU supports all kinds.  You really don’t see the difference?

Comment #172: oldfeminist  on  06/04  at  03:12 PM

Oh, and it’s easy for Wal*Mart to discriminate against Black customers.  Saw it myself less than five years ago.  The greeter checked receipts against bag contents for exiting Black customers but not White ones. 

This went on for about a month and suddenly stopped.  Maybe someone realized that having white Greatest Generation folks deciding who looks suspicious might not be a great idea!  But it wasn’t just one day, and it was quite obvious who was getting stopped and who wasn’t.

Comment #173: oldfeminist  on  06/04  at  03:15 PM

The Catholic University case was about abortion, not civil rights.  NAACP got their chapter in only after they agreed not to advocate for abortion rights, so they didn’t actually achieve “free speech” after all.

Actually, that’s the right outcome from a mainstream ACLU civil libertarian perspective. Forced speech is a violation of the 1st since freedom of speech includes the right not to say something or not provide a platform for something one objects to. Therefore CU has a first amendment right to ban pro-abortion groups from campus just as Amanda has the right to ban me.

Upthread Gracchus took libertarians to task for allegedly making an exception to this aspect of free speech “when the venue in question is at a private university where a wingnut like Coulter has had a speaking invitation revoked—then it’s all First Amendment and “lefty-wing ivory-tower thugs” and “help, help I’m being oppressed!”. But FIRE does no such thing, as their behavior in this case illustrates.

For example, there was an evangelist student group at Tufts who refused to allow a gay member, oops, gay member who wouldn’t say being gay is a sin, oh that’s totally different!  Never mind.

This doesn’t work. You can’t use the machinery of the state to force a group to accept someone whose views they disagree with, unless the said group has a contractual free-speech obligation and its doubful an evangelical group decided to enter into such an agreement.

To use the state in such a manner violates the 1st.  Freedom of association is generally held to be an implicit right under the free-speech clause, even by mainstream liberals.

Comment #174: Manju  on  06/04  at  07:52 PM

It’s just convenient how *all* the cases FIRE supports are a particular kind.  ACLU supports all kinds.  You really don’t see the difference?

If “all” their cases, or most, reflect a particular kind then it could be because the left is more censorious on campus than the right. Otherwise you would be able to cite legit free-speech cases that FIRE failed to defend. And you’ve completely failed to provide any.

Nonetheless, I checked their top active cases here http://thefire.org/cases/topcases/ and came up with this for your review:

Two days before it was scheduled to host a speaking event with former education professor and activist Bill Ayers, MSU student group Students for a Democratic Society (SDS) was informed by MSU’s Center for Student Involvement that it would be charged extra security fees for an unspecified number of extra security officers to handle possible protesters against the event. FIRE wrote to MSU President Susan A. Cole before the event to remind MSU that it may not burden the group by affixing a price tag to such events on the basis of their expressive content. MSU did not directly respond to FIRE, but SDS confirmed that MSU did not charge it for the extra security officers present at the event.

Gainesville State College (GSC) unconstitutionally censored a painting critical of Confederate heritage by removing it from a faculty art exhibition. Art instructor and artist Stanley Bermudez’ painting “Heritage?” features images of a lynching and of a torch-wielding member of the Ku Klux Klan superimposed onto a Confederate flag. Two weeks into the exhibition, when critics of the painting contacted GSC President Martha T. Nesbitt, she removed it, claiming that “I have to consider the impact of an action on the health and reputation of the institution. In this instance, I made a judgment call that the negative results would outweigh the positive ones.” FIRE has asked President Nesbitt to announce to GSC’s students and faculty that their protected expression will never again be subject to censorship.

Kristofer Petersen-Overton, a doctoral student at the City University of New York Graduate Center, was hired by Brooklyn College’s Department of Political Science to teach a spring 2011 course on Middle Eastern politics. Shortly following receipt of a letter from New York State Assemblyman Dov Hikind challenging the hire and the academic merit of the course, Brooklyn College abruptly terminated the hire, claiming merely that Petersen-Overton was too early in his program of study to be allowed to teach the course. FIRE has written a letter to Brooklyn College President Karen L. Gould asking the school to clarify its actions.

The student group Young Americans for Liberty (YAL) at ECU submitted a request to ECU’s Student Government Association to receive funding for its “Hemp Fest” event, which included a request of $150 for the purchase of legal hemp products for display and demonstration. SGA refused to fund this portion of the event, however, saying that it was “combustible” and that it would “not risk tarnishing SGA” in doing so—a clear violation of SGA’s obligation to be viewpoint-neutral in distributing funds allocated from mandatory student fees. After FIRE contacted ECU and reminded its student government of its obligation to uphold YAL’s First Amendment rights, SGA then determined that YAL was still ineligible to receive the funding because its application was too vague in its request. Though SGA seems to have abandoned its viewpoint discrimination against YAL, FIRE is still waiting for it to confirm that it will not engage in such behavior against student groups in the future.

(Note: I’m not sure if YAL is Lefty or Libertarian)

While I’m saddened to see so much RW censorship, I’m glad to see the libertarian faction of the RW responding appropriately.

Comment #175: Manju  on  06/04  at  07:57 PM

The question is whether the shop owner has the right to exclude people he doesn’t want there.

This a false and crappy summation of the Civil Rights Act in any case.  The question is not whether or not shop owners (even the ones with girly parts!) have the right to exclude people they don’t want, it’s whether or not the law will allow them to decide that based on nothing but skin color/ethnicity/etc.

I work at a library and I’ve kicked more than my fair share of people out.  That is completely different from deciding - whether in a library or bookstore - that someone can’t come in simply because they have a specific genetic or cultural characteristic.

And also, one can still decide that people can’t come in if they don’t follow certain cultural (not legal) rules, either because they are ones that are considered so common a “reasonable person” would understand why they are there (no shirt), because they are there to protect the customer from harm and the business from lawsuits (no shoes), or because not allowing the business to do so would limit their ability to serve their customers (dividing library programs by developmental level).

Comment #176: jennygadget  on  06/04  at  08:40 PM

Forced speech is a violation of the 1st since freedom of speech includes the right not to say something or not provide a platform for something one objects to. Therefore CU has a first amendment right to ban pro-abortion groups from campus just as Amanda has the right to ban me.

But then they should be able to ban the NAACP from having a chapter there, for any reason or no reason.  Right?  And any private institution must be let alone, no matter how crazily, racistly, sexistly, or any other -ly they might choose which organizations they allow and which they deny access.

I mean, either FIRE jumped in where they don’t belong, trying to force the private CU to allow a group they don’t want onto their campus, or they failed to obtain free speech for the NAACP in CU which is a public place where free speech is king.

You can’t have it both ways.

If “all” their cases, or most, reflect a particular kind then it could be because the left is more censorious on campus than the right. Otherwise you would be able to cite legit free-speech cases that FIRE failed to defend. And you’ve completely failed to provide any.

Actually, the Catholic University case is right there.  No abortion talk allowed.  And they WON. With the help of FIRE!

Comment #177: oldfeminist  on  06/04  at  09:13 PM

But then they should be able to ban the NAACP from having a chapter there, for any reason or no reason

They are able to and some Universities indeed do (Liberty U, etc) just as Pandagon retains the right to ban. Liberty U and Pandagon retain their ability to ban because they did not sign a contract promising their students or commentators free speech protection. So there is no legal recourse.

CU did sign one but it had a carve out for abortion (I assume). Ergo, when FIRE goes after private universities (using the legal system) they do so on the very basis of academic freedom that those Universities purport to uphold.

To elaborate, for libertarians (and many mainstream liberals) the right to contract is critical to first amendment rights. That’s why you see many prominent libertarians defending sharia law (when institutionalized between two private parties) and making sure the State honors and protects those contracts…to give you another example where libertarianism overlaps nicely with the protection of a religious minority, while lefty statism threatens them.

Comment #178: Manju  on  06/04  at  09:44 PM

In short, oldfeminist, FIRE addresses contractual free-speech / academic-freedom rights when dealing with Private Universities.

Many Universities try to have their cake and eat it too.  Ie they say they guarantee freedom of thought but then turn around and censor unpopular ideas. Censors are like racists. They hardly ever admit tthat is what they are doing.

So, if you look at the examples I cited above, you see that in the one private university involved (the hemp case) FIRE referenced the university’s own contractual obligations to their students: “SGA’s obligation to be viewpoint-neutral in distributing funds allocated from mandatory student fees.”

Since the other censorship cases (pro bill ayers speech, anti-confederacy speech, anti-israel speech) involved public universites, FIRE went after them on first amendment grounds.

Comment #179: Manju  on  06/04  at  09:57 PM

Justice and equality are more important than freedom.

I want to maximize all three, but I’m not a supporter of the freedom to be unjust (equality is more complicated).

It’s confounded a little because justice and equality can be conceptualized as freedom—FDR’s “freedoms from,” I would say, are really economic and social justice respectively, so I’d put them higher than the autonomy “freedom” is generally understood to mean. That doesn’t mean I favor a police state, or even the War On Poor Drug Users Of Color (though that’s offensive to justice as well as freedom).

The only way I could prioritize freedom is if we achieved perfect, sustainable justice and perfect, sustainable equality.

anoNY2, 140:

I of course do not support discrimination by the government.  This is a separate issue from discrimination by store owners.

Um, only if enforcement is done on the Lester Maddox model.

Comment #180: Hershele Ostropoler  on  06/05  at  02:01 AM

<blockquote>I of course do not support discrimination by the government.  This is a separate issue from discrimination by store owners.

Um, only if enforcement is done on the Lester Maddox model.</blockquote>

THIS.

Exactly how do you think these shopowners enforce their rules, anony?  Defending your store from people that are trespassing - but are otherwise nonviolent - is very different from defending your home from the same.  Either the shopowners have to be able to use violence - in the form of force or worse - to evict said people off property that is otherwise accessible to the public (and I hope even you can see what a mess that would be), or they have no legal means of evicting the trespassers themselves and so must call the police to do that for them.  (another thing, btw, that I have had to do more often than I would like.)  And how, exactly, is using taxpayer dollars to enforce discrimination qualitatively different from “discrimination by the government”?

Comment #181: jennygadget  on  06/05  at  08:34 AM

CU did sign one but it had a carve out for abortion (I assume). Ergo, when FIRE goes after private universities (using the legal system) they do so on the very basis of academic freedom that those Universities purport to uphold.
Comment #229: Manju on 06/04 at 09:44 PM

You ASSUME?

If there is a contract, there’s generally some clause stating what each side must/can do if they fail to uphold the contract.  E.g. if you don’t go to any classes and don’t take any tests then they can throw you out. 

So where in this assumed contract does it say they can quash abortion speech, but not civil rights speech?  And what is the consequence should they not uphold their side of the bargain?

In fact they say:

Protection from governmental constraint on freedom of speech is ensured by the United States Constitution for all persons. This freedom to express oneself verbally, in writing, or by peaceful demonstration, even in significantly controversial matters, may be constrained in a private university by other values which are held to be equal, greater or prior.

They’re not speaking only for themselves here.

Racist University can decide that racism, anti-race-mixing, and pro-slavery is okay to teach, and civil rights could be quashed, if they had those beliefs as part of their University values.  Bob Jones in fact doesn’t allow interracial dating (last I heard).

You can put it in the catalog or in your bylaws somewhere, but you could just decide that something is against your university’s stated values and start enforcing away.

Acceptance and respect for all can be interpreted as no calling gays inferior or sinners.  Most universities express that kind of value.

Many Universities try to have their cake and eat it too.  Ie they say they guarantee freedom of thought but then turn around and censor unpopular ideas.
Comment #230: Manju on 06/04 at 09:57 PM

How could a university keep you from thinking anything?  I can think anything I like, even rape and murder and ethnic cleansing of all Manjus.  Advocating them in a sponsored presentation is a different story.

Comment #182: oldfeminist  on  06/05  at  02:57 PM

Manju @206 - which is exactly goo d for nothing, but thanks for playing. Not.

Comment #183: helen w. h.  on  06/05  at  06:04 PM

You ASSUME? If there is a contract, there’s generally some clause stating what each side must/can do if they fail to uphold the contract…So where in this assumed contract does it say they can quash abortion speech, but not civil rights speech?

Here: http://policies.cua.edu/studentlife/organizations/presentations.cfm

Like Pandagon, CU is dedicated to a specific viewpoint and therefore engages in viewpoint discrimination when they deem necessary, wheras a liberal university like Yale claims to honor virtually all viewpoints and therfoer has less freedom to operate by virtue of their own contractual obligations. In the doc above CU sets the limits of academic-freedom for their students:

The university, operating within the framework of the foregoing, is committed to its various constituencies to avoid the following:
blasphemy: the act of expressing irreverence for God or those things held sacred;
pornography: explicit sex lacking any artistic merit, portrayed in a vulgar and exploitative manner;
calumny: false and malicious accusation;
advocacy: meaning the act of pleading for, supporting, inciting or recommending active espousal of (as opposed to scholarly and abstract discourses), examining or questioning the legal, academic or moral propriety of the subject under discussion, constituting a clear and present danger of:

a. the violent overthrow of the government of the United States or any political subdivision thereof;

b. the destruction of, damage to, or the unlawful seizure or subversion of the university’s buildings or other property;

c. the disruption, impairment or interference with the university’s regularly scheduled classes or other educational functions;

d. coercion, threats, intimidations, blasphemy, defamation, physical harm or other invasions of the lawful rights of the members of the university community;

e. any campus disorder of a violent nature;

f. illegal acts constituting a deprivation of the civil or property rights of others.

And what is the consequence should they not uphold their side of the bargain?

FIRE will confront them. Which they did.

In fact they say:

“Protection from governmental constraint on freedom of speech is ensured by the United States Constitution for all persons. This freedom to express oneself verbally, in writing, or by peaceful demonstration, even in significantly controversial matters, may be constrained in a private university by other values which are held to be equal, greater or prior.”

They’re not speaking only for themselves here.

Did you read the very quote you posted? Here CU explicitly says the US Constitution protects us from “governmental constraint on freedom of speech”. However, they explicitly say that a private university can constrain.

FIRE operates from this established constitutional paradigm as well, as not to infringe on a Universities 1st amendment rights while simultaneously upholding students/professors contractual free-speech rights.

You can put it in the catalog or in your bylaws somewhere, but you could just decide that something is against your university’s stated values and start enforcing away.

They put it in their catalog and bylaws.

Pro-abortion speech would fall under blasphemy whereas civil-rights speech would not. i suppose there is some room for interpretation here as to what is blashephous and what is not, but I’m sure it would not be too hard to find examples of CU themself condemning abortion on religious grounds while promoting racial equality (perhaps on the same grounds).

How could a university keep you from thinking anything?  I can think anything I like, even rape and murder and ethnic cleansing of all Manjus.  Advocating them in a sponsored presentation is a different story.

Right. I should’ve said freedom of expression.

 

Comment #184: Manju  on  06/05  at  06:43 PM

At the end of the day, oldfeminist, I don’t see how you can fault FIRE for what they did with CU. I mean if you take issue with CU’s abortion censorship why single our FIRE when it was the NAACP that agreed to limit their pro-abortion speech in order to get accepted? Shouldn’t you have a bigger gripe with the NAACP?  See here:

http://thefire.org/article/4989.html

According to FIRE, Jawando’s goals in starting the NAACP chapter were explicitly political and centered on civil rights, and neither of the other groups listed political or civil rights activism as one of its primary purposes. Jawando had also assured the school that the campus chapter of the NAACP would not address the issue of abortion.

Now, FIRE appears to believe the abortion issue was a ruse. CU’s real motive was limiting lefty civil rights speech (in violation of their own principles of academic freedom).

Indeed, they appear to side with Kweisi Mfume (note, no reference to abortion):

NAACP President and CEO Kweisi Mfume had threatened to sue the schools if it did not recognize the student NAACP chapter. Mfume called the school’s refusal “outright discrimination, bigotry, prejudice and intolerance all rolled into one. It is at the very least a double standard based on race and social philosophy.”

FIRE’s narrative is this (note: the original issue was, according to FIRE and I assume the NAACP because of Mfume’s statemsnt, the existence of too many minority groups.)

William Jawando, the student who had tried to form a student chapter of the NAACP on campus but was rejected in April 2003, was told by the school that two minority groups exist that would make the goals of the NAACP redundant… FIRE wrote to the university’s president, Rev. David M. O’Connell in June pointing out the conflict between the school’s decision on the NAACP student chapter and the school’s own promises of freedom of expression and dissent.

So, here we have an example of a RW-Libertarian group not only going after a religious university censoring LW speech, but also accepting allegations of racial discrimination coming from a traditional civil rights group. Along with the other examples cited, here we see Libertarians behaving in the very manner Pandagonians say is conspicuously absent.

Its almost like your afraid Libertarians will take your criticism of them seriously and respond accordingly. Can’t have that.

Comment #185: Manju  on  06/05  at  07:12 PM

Did you read the very quote you posted? Here CU explicitly says the US Constitution protects us from “governmental constraint on freedom of speech”. However, they explicitly say that a private university can constrain.

I not only read it, I was quoting that part intentionally.  Because FIRE makes it sound like they’re protecting students’ free speech rights in some big splashy all-encompassing way, but they’re only protecting the ones that they want to protect, by selecting cases where religious and sexist bullshit is protected.  Rightly or wrongly.

Indeed, they appear to side with Kweisi Mfume (note, no reference to abortion):

Yes.  Mfume distanced the NAACP from abortion rights. 

Should I be displeased with Mfume and the NAACP for caving?  Most definitely.  But I don’t think I need to ignore FIRE’s part in it as a result.  I can oppose both.  And CUA.  And Bob Jones University.

here we have an example of a RW-Libertarian group not only going after a religious university censoring LW speech, but also accepting allegations of racial discrimination coming from a traditional civil rights group.

It’s a nice trick making racism and sexism the same thing by just calling them left-wing.  But they are not the same. So far as I can see, FIRE has never, ever supported a feminist or sexually inclusive viewpoint over a religious one. 

It’s not like those conflicts never occur.  It’s not like no one on the sexually inclusive side ever challenges and wins such conflicts.  But FIRE has made its position clear with crap like this:

http://thefire.org/index.php/article/6727.html

he American Association of University Women (AAUW) Educational Foundation released a report Tuesday claiming that 62 percent of students surveyed have been sexually harassed at college. The report’s definition of sexual harassment, however, includes large amounts of constitutionally protected expression, such as any unwanted “sexual comments, jokes, gestures, or looks.” This definition is so broad that the report’s conclusions are highly misleading and dangerous to free expression on campus.

Suddenly absolute free speech and nothing less is necessary.  A guy yelling at woman students, “Hey tits hey tits looka me hey tits you fucking cunt fuck you you’re so ugly I wouldn’t even fuck you on pig night hey tits hey tits” would be fine, because that’s free speech, right?

Would similarly harassing racist speech be okay?

Comment #186: oldfeminist  on  06/06  at  01:36 AM

Note also that in the recent Caple case (St. Augustine’s college) the argument about free speech as an absolute was made by FIRE.  But SAC is a private institution.  SAC indicated there were multiple reasons they didn’t want Caple on stage to get his diploma, some of which they couldn’t share because of FERPA. 

They characterize “SAC’s extensive promises of freedom of expression for students”
http://thefire.org/case/864.html

yet in fact those “extensive promises” say basically the same thing that CUA does about all students having the same free speech rights as any other citizen:

http://thefire.org/public/pdfs/2e37470c31ac1a24a9840e9e1008d454.pdf?direct
“Students enjoy the same basic rights and are bound by the same responsibilities to respect the rights of others, as are all citizens….The student as a citizen has the rights of freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of peaceful assembly and association, freedom of political beliefs and freedom from personal force and violence, threats of violence and personal abuse.”

Which means the GOVERNMENT can’t shut them up.  But SAC can respond to their free speech as they wish, being a private organization!  Including telling him he can’t participate in graduation. 

In the same document:

“Student have the responsibility to act in a manner that is conducive to
learning by being prepared, prompt, attentive and courteous in all
academic settings (including classrooms, laboratories, libraries, advising
centers, departmental and faculty offi ces, etc.) and complying with
requests made by a faculty or staff member in an academic setting.”

A student must comply with requests made by a faculty or staff member in an academic setting.  He didn’t comply, according to the PRIVATE college’s statement that this wasn’t the first or only time he made an asinine comment on the school’s facebook page.

Comment #187: oldfeminist  on  06/06  at  01:59 AM

Because FIRE makes it sound like they’re protecting students’ free speech rights in some big splashy all-encompassing way, but they’re only protecting the ones that they want to protect, by selecting cases where religious and sexist bullshit is protected.

Er…there is a freedom of religion clause in the first amendment, so obviously religious “bullshit” is protected. And sexist bullshit falls under the free speech clause. FIRE has no basis to go after CU for censoring pro-choice speech since CU has a first amendment right to do so and lets their students know that it advance.

Be that as it may it doesn’t look like abortion was really in play, as you inadvertently point out yourself (“Mfume distanced the NAACP from abortion rights”).  CU claims it was about abortion but FIRE “the NAACP chapter were explicitly political and centered on civil rights…” and the student rep of the NAACP assured CU that they ”would not address the issue of abortion.”

So that decision was the NAACP’s, who BTW have a 1st amendment right to disregard abortion-rights if they want to. FIRE appears to have gotten involved when the ban persisted. Therefore FIRE was defending the contractual free-speech rights of CU students to advocate for the civil rights policies of the NAACP. This, btw, includes issues like Affirmative action that RW-Libertarians generally oppose, thereby problematizing your assertion that “*all* the cases FIRE supports are a particular kind.”

So far as I can see, FIRE has never, ever supported a feminist or sexually inclusive viewpoint over a religious one. It’s not like those conflicts never occur.

Look. I cite 5 cases where FIRE defended the free-speech rights of non-RWingers:

1. Pro- mainstream Civil rights speech via the NAACP
2. Pro Bill Ayers speech,
3. Anti-confederacy speech,
4. Anti-Israel speech
5. Pro-pot speech

You don’t even acknowledge 4 of them. You take issue with one of them by accepting censor’s version of events over the NAACP’s and FIRE’s, and don’t even acknowledge that even if you are right FIRE still defended views (like pro-affirmative action) that RWingers disagree with.

All that doesn’t make you budge from your extreme position on libertarian hypocrisy so now you want evidence of FIRE defending a very narrow issue: “supported a feminist or sexually inclusive viewpoint over a religious one.” You assure us that these conflicts do indeed occur bur cite no case. Well, if you can’t cite a single case of legit censorship of feminists by the religious on a public campus or private one guaranteeing free-speech rights, maybe that’s because the religious right are behaving honorably. Did that ever occur to you?

Perhaps there are so many cases gong in the other direction because it’s the radical feminists who have little concern for the very liberal freedoms you accuse libertarians of not really believing in.

Comment #188: Manju  on  06/06  at  02:48 AM

yet in fact those “extensive promises” say basically the same thing that CUA does about all students having the same free speech rights as any other citizen:

Actually, SAC and CU are saying opposite things.

CU explicitly says; “This freedom to express oneself verbally, in writing, or by peaceful demonstration, even in significantly controversial matters, may be constrained in a private university by other values which are held to be equal, greater or prior.” They then go on to list the rationale behind the constraints, with Blasphemy being the likely salient issue.

SAC in contrast does what most liberal universities do. The contractual free-speech rights they guarantee are intended to mimic those that citizens off-campus enjoy: ““Students enjoy the same basic rights and are bound by the same responsibilities to respect the rights of others, as are all citizens.”

This gives FIRE much more leverage with SAC.

Comment #189: Manju  on  06/06  at  03:04 AM

CU:
You have the right to free speech like any other citizen.  Government is not allowed to censor your speech.
We explicitly reserve the right not to allow advocacy of the pro-choice position on our campus.

SAC:
You have the right to free speech like any other citizen.  Government is not allowed to censor your speech.
We reserve the right to direct your speech (and other actions) in this academic setting.

SAC was even more inclusive of their right to censor your speech—they didn’t even enumerate the cases, they just said that the student has to take direction from faculty or staff when in their academic setting.

Comment #190: oldfeminist  on  06/06  at  05:05 PM

“All that doesn’t make you budge from your extreme position on libertarian hypocrisy”

I am expressing my opinion on what FIRE’s priorities are—that they are based on ideological grounds as much as on protecting free speech.

You continue to characterize the ACLU case as pro-free-speech when in fact it is pro-CU-controlled-speech applied to pro-choice speech. 

Yes, I get it.  They have a right to control that speech—you don’t seem to understand SAC’s freedom to do so, on the same grounds as CU, but they have it as well. 

But a “free speech” organization championing (legal) suppression of speech just because it’s legal is, if not hypocritical, a bit misleading.

Comment #191: oldfeminist  on  06/06  at  05:52 PM

Yes, I get it.  They have a right to control that speech—you don’t seem to understand SAC’s freedom to do so, on the same grounds as CU, but they have it as well.

If SAC has the freedom to do so, then won’t the courts just throw the case out? Wouldn’t SAC’s lawyers know their own contact and just tell FIRE to F-off? FIRE’s been at this for a long time and they have an impressive track record. If FIRE really has the double-standard you claim they do, then we should see private universities winning their cases against FIRE.  But yet we don’t.

That’s because FIRE knows how to read a contract while you twist words to fit your preconceived partisan narrative. I mean CUA’s contract mentions constitutional rights in order to make clear that they don’t apply to their university. This is crystal clear in your own quote:

“Protection from governmental constraint on freedom of speech is ensured by the United States Constitution for all persons. This freedom to express oneself verbally, in writing, or by peaceful demonstration, even in significantly controversial matters, may be constrained in a private university by other values which are held to be equal, greater or prior.”

SAC takes the precise opposite tact. They mention constitutional rights in order to make clear that their students will enjoy them on campus.  Your own quote again:

“Students enjoy the same basic rights and are bound by the same responsibilities to respect the rights of others, as are all citizens….The student as a citizen has the rights of freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of peaceful assembly and association, freedom of political beliefs and freedom from personal force and violence, threats of violence and personal abuse.”

I can’t see how you get from this that “Which means the GOVERNMENT can’t shut them up.  But SAC can respond to their free speech as they wish, being a private organization!” I mean, SAC said you have the “same” rights as citizens do while CUA expcilitly said those rights “may be constrained”.

As for this from the SAC handbook:

“Student have the responsibility to act in a manner that is conducive to learning by being prepared, prompt, attentive and courteous in allacademic setting (including classrooms, laboratories, libraries, advising
centers, departmental and faculty offi ces, etc.) and complying with requests made by a faculty or staff member in an academic setting.”

First of all is facebook an “academic setting”? 

Secondly, this is what you call a “time, place, and manner” restriction (look it up, I’m not a lawyer so its hard for me to do this cogently)…which is constitutionally allowed. Even a Public University can do this.

These are content-neutral restrictions that serve to forward the mission of an institution. For example, the US govt can’t enforce a general dress code on its citizens w/o violating the first. But they can do within the context of government employees since that is merely a “time place manner” restriction. Its not intended to suppress speech, its content-neutral, and just makes the workplace workable.

That’s all this is.

In contrast, CUA’s handbook is real viewpoint discrimination. They explicitly ban:

1. blasphemy: the act of expressing irreverence for God or those things held sacred;
2. pornography: explicit sex lacking any artistic merit, portrayed in a vulgar and exploitative manner;
3. calumny: false and malicious accusation;
4. advocacy

Therefore, FIRE has no leg to stand on if they wanted to protest CUA’s abortion censorship, which I’m sure they wanted to…after all, Ayn Rand wasn’t exactly known for threatening abortion clinics.

Comment #192: Manju  on  06/06  at  08:36 PM

“I can’t see how you get from this that “Which means the GOVERNMENT can’t shut them up.  But SAC can respond to their free speech as they wish, being a private organization!” I mean, SAC said you have the “same” rights as citizens do while CUA expcilitly said those rights “may be constrained”.”

It’s the phrase “as are all citizens.”  They are not expressing any rights SAC students have that are not already enjoyed by all other citizens.  That is, the right to speak freely on their own property or public property, unencumbered by governmental constraint.  *That’s* where I get it.  And then there’s their statement that they have the right to constrain students’ activities in an educational setting.

“First of all is facebook an “academic setting”?”

It is if that’s how the school communicates with its students.  And again, that’s only a small part of what the student has done to provoke SAC, though because of privacy laws they can’t discuss it publicly.  So it may be bullshit, but I’m guessing it isn’t, having dealt with timewasting assholes in my time.

“These are content-neutral restrictions that serve to forward the mission of an institution. For example, the US govt can’t enforce a general dress code on its citizens w/o violating the first. But they can do within the context of government employees since that is merely a “time place manner” restriction. Its not intended to suppress speech, its content-neutral, and just makes the workplace workable.

That’s all this is.”

The requirement that students not be assholes in class by constantly interrupting and bitching about stuff is the same thing.  This is probably what SAC is trying to do in its case—avoiding a huge scene when Caple gets up on stage and, say, moons the audience, or starts a chant “SAC sucks” or something like that.  They have a right to keep that from happening.

“FIRE has no leg to stand on if they wanted to protest CUA’s abortion censorship, which I’m sure they wanted to…after all, Ayn Rand wasn’t exactly known for threatening abortion clinics.”

Why would FIRE have to be Randian?  A lot of L/libertarians aren’t.  Many are anti-abortion.  You know, like Ron Paul.

Comment #193: oldfeminist  on  06/07  at  12:05 AM

It’s the phrase “as are all citizens.”  They are not expressing any rights SAC students have that are not already enjoyed by all other citizens.  That is, the right to speak freely on their own property or public property, unencumbered by governmental constraint.

Aren’t you concerned that you are the only person with this interpretation? Even SAC isn’t making this argument. Surely, if they meant to convey that they would’ve come out like CUA did (in regards to abortion) and ended the case right there.

The people at FIRE are seasoned litigators.  They claim:

St. Augustine’s, a private university, specifically guarantees students the freedom of speech protected by the First Amendment. The Student Handbook provides that, “The student as a citizen has the rights of freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of peaceful assembly and association, freedom of political beliefs and freedom from personal force and violence, threats of violence and personal abuse.”

SAC hasn’t corrected them. Unlike CUA, there is no clear statement saying the university reserves the right to censor. Furthermore, it’s highly unusual for a university to say that, since the tradition of Universities is to be a free marketplace of ideas. When a university is not that, they say it clearly.

Also, I suspect “citizen” refers to citizen of the university, not country (there are professors and employees there too). That makes sense because the first amendment does not only protect citizens of the US, but non-citizens as well.

When SAC says, “The student as a citizen has the rights of freedom of speech” they mean that the school has contractually agreed to not censor students, as most institutions of higher education promise.

 

Comment #194: Manju  on  06/07  at  03:02 AM

that’s only a small part of what the student has done to provoke SAC, though because of privacy laws they can’t discuss it publicly

That’s why due process of law is a fundamental right in our regime. If charges are bought against you then you have the right to know what they are and face your accuser. SACs behavior is suspicious.

The requirement that students not be assholes in class by constantly interrupting and bitching about stuff is the same thing.

That’s quite a charge to make. AFAK, even SAC hasn’t made this accusation.

This is probably what SAC is trying to do in its case—avoiding a huge scene when Caple gets up on stage and, say, moons the audience, or starts a chant “SAC sucks” or something like that.  They have a right to keep that from happening.

SAC “refused to allow a student to participate in its graduation ceremonies due to a comment he posted on Facebook about how the college was handling its recovery from tornado damage”, according to FIRE. SAC’s narrative seems to confirm this: “It was determined that the comments made to the page by Mr. Caple, coupled with other comments he made to select individuals, were designed for the sole purpose of inciting students to react to the College’s continued efforts to manage a difficult situation.”

There are no allegations of mooning or disrupting class. To any liberal-minded person, the first thought would be that the authorities in question don’t want their handling of the tornado situation criticized.

FIRE rightfully suspects this, just as they rightfully suspected that CUA was really trying to censor the NAACPs lefty civil rights views, not abortion ones.

Yet, on a thread dedicated to a libertarian-hypocrisy along comes a supposed liberal hurling unsubstantiated charges against a student facing disciplinary action for no known reason other than simply criticizing the administration’s handling of a tornado.

Helluva civil libertarian you are.

Comment #195: Manju  on  06/07  at  03:48 AM

Yet, on a thread dedicated to a libertarian-hypocrisy along comes a supposed liberal hurling unsubstantiated charges against a student facing disciplinary action for no known reason other than simply criticizing the administration’s handling of a tornado.

Really?  You actually quoted “coupled with other comments he made to select individuals.”

The administration says they can’t share them because of FERPA.  Is that true?  Don’t know.  We will never know, in fact.

“There are no allegations of mooning or disrupting class.”

I never said there were.  I used that as an example of things that SAC can legally require their students refrain from doing without falling afoul of free speech rights, because they wrote the extremely flexible and powerful for them:

Student have the responsibility to act in a manner that is conducive to
learning by being prepared, prompt, attentive and courteous in all
academic settings (including classrooms, laboratories, libraries, advising
centers, departmental and faculty offi ces, etc.) and complying with
requests made by a faculty or staff member in an academic setting.

You seem to be the one who enjoys hurling stuff, by the way.  I’ve been putting up with your ever-escalating characterizations of me and everyone else, without reciprocating. 

Since most of your comments are now that negative characterization rather than substantiation for your point of view, and the rest consists of your ignoring points I’ve already made with “are not” in the face of pretty obvious evidence?  I’m done.  Go argue with someone who’s more easily shamed into thinking she doesn’t believe in civil liberties because she doesn’t allow you to crap on her carpet.

Comment #196: oldfeminist  on  06/08  at  03:57 PM

Really?  You actually quoted “coupled with other comments he made to select individuals.”…The administration says they can’t share them because of FERPA.  Is that true?  Don’t know.  We will never know, in fact.

Look, if authorities bring charges against a subordinate and then claim the law prevents them from revealing the nature of the charges, civil libertarians don’t shrug and say “we will never know.” Civil libertarians are concerned about due proves of a law.  Right now, you are not. Ergo the “ever-escalating characterizations of me” that you object to. The administration’s excuse for violating a basic principle of due-process would be a major red-flag to anyone concerned about academic freedom.

The student has rights. This is not the military, Pandagon, the NYTimes, or a Catholic university where it is understood that almost all decisions are left to the authorities-in-charge. This is a self-professed liberal university that promised their students rights.

We will eventually know because FIRE is on the case. There is a lawsuit in the works.

I never said there were [“allegations of mooning or disrupting class.”]. I used that as an example of things that SAC can legally require their students refrain from doing without falling afoul of free speech rights…

You said “this is probably what SAC is trying to do in its case—avoiding a huge scene when Caple gets up on stage and, say, moons the audience, or starts a chant “SAC sucks” or something like that.  They have a right to keep that from happening.”

So according to you there are no allegations of mooning or disrupting class yet the administration is trying to prevent the non-alleged behavior by banning a student who did not moon or disrupt class from graduation. And you think the University has the right to do so because of their time, manner, and place restrictions.

The problem is the concept of “Prior restraint”. See Nixon vs NYTimes (Pentagon Papers) for its application to free speech. Basically, you can’t punish a person because they may commit an illegal act. You have to wait until the act occurs.

This principle applies to private actors under common law. Lets say you work at Goldman Sachs and they tell you that you can’t surf porn at work. You criticize their mortgage-backed securities business on your facebook page and they then prevent you from attending a critical meeting under the guise that you might surf porn at that meeting. You then have legal recourse under your contract with Goldman (and under employment law) and you can use the principle of prior-restraint against them.

Comment #197: Manju  on  06/08  at  09:07 PM

because they wrote the extremely flexible and powerful for them:

Time, manner, and place restrictions are extremely narrow in scope and can’t be used as an excuse to viewpoint discriminate.

But I guess your argument still hinges on whether or not the earlier part of the contract guarantees students free-speech rights ( which is the norm for universities, ergo the large opportunity for FAIR) or actually says they do not have them (as with CUA).

I honestly thought you were arguing from bad faith since the plain meaning of the text (“The student as a citizen has the rights of freedom of speech…”) appears rather clear to me. But assuming you are genuine, consider this:

http://thefire.org/article/13246.html

FIRE wrote SAC to remind them the student “exercised the right to free expression granted him by the college.” FIRE specifically mentions:

“It is inconsistent with both SAC’s mission and its explicit guarantees to students to punish a student for expressing his views.”

“This inconsistency is exacerbated by the fact that SAC has punished the student for encouraging his peers to exercise the very rights that SAC has promised.”

While SAC is not a public institution and thus not bound by the First Amendment, it is nevertheless both morally and contractually bound to honor the explicit and repeated promises of freedom of expression it makes to its students in its materials.

SAC’s Student Code of Conduct and Student Judicial Manual promises that

Yet, SAC’s punishment of Caple violated SAC’s binding guarantee of free expression to its students.

Far from violating SAC policy, Caple encouraged his fellow students to actively and peacefully participate in a forum provided by SAC, advising them to “come correct, be prepared, and have supporting documents to back up your arguments”-precisely the kind of critical thinking and engaged civic-mindedness that any college ought to be encouraging among its students.

They ask SAC:

This is our understanding of the facts. Please inform us if you believe we are in error.

In SAC’s reply they did not dispute their guarantee of rights. While they choose not to discuss the case in detail, there is no reference to students not having free-speech rights.

Indeed, they explicitly deny violating those rights. (Arguably, their reference to “rights” could refer to the 1st amendment, but the fact that the first only applies to govt is so basic that I doubt the lawyer writing the letter is claiming that a private university did not violate the first amendment rights of their students, since obviously they can’t. He meant contractual rights.

http://thefire.org/public/pdfs/153c72f7fcbf8a08ae94edf1340baa44.pdf?direct

Comment #198: Manju  on  06/08  at  09:29 PM
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