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Next entry: How covering up for abuse is sadly common Previous entry: What Would Happen If The Black Eyed Peas Were Conservative Bloggers And None Of Them Were Black?

Turns out a lot of men look forward to the oops pregnancy

I know I’ve been writing a lot about reproductive rights and sexual health issues, but the stories I want to comment on seem to be increasing lately.  As someone who writes a lot about these issues, I’ve noticed something interesting over the years about the feedback I get on the “moral” question of abortion, specifically from self-identified pro-choicers.  Occasionally I’ll get an email, comment, or tweet from someone who is worried about the moral gravity of abortion, and suggests that somehow pro-choice arguments would be more compelling if we gave up more ground on the stigma of the procedure, if we spent more time in public worrying about how terrible abortion is (as if women who get abortions aren’t already shamed enough), that I personally haven’t thought enough about how serious a decision abortion must be for women and how tragic it always, always is. 

95-99% of this feedback is from men. 

I have a few theories—-some of them work together, due to the both/and nature of this blog—-as to why this might be.  I considered the possibility that it’s biological, that these men are so unaware of a woman’s bodily functions that they really don’t stop to think about how early stage pregnancy isn’t like some lightening bolt for women, but more a gradually introduction to bloaty crankiness that has to be confirmed by a pregnancy test, it’s so not lightening bolt-ish.  And so these men don’t have a relationship to the idea of abortion as prevention, which is closer to how women who have abortion—-and those of us who feel empathy for them—-think of it.  I also considered strongly that for men, it’s really an ego thing.  The sentimental patriarchal arguments forwarded by anti-choice men who clearly get off on the idea of being able to control women with their super-sperm unfortunately have an emotional effect on some men who are intellectually pro-choice.  But what I realized is that a man’s unease with abortion was often, in his own words, related to his desire to be a father—-usually recently realized or something he wants very soon. 

It makes no sense, though!  Or at least that’s what I thought at first.  Wanting to be a father, in my mind, was about wanting to make the decision jointly with a woman and moving forward with a plan. But in real life, there are often situations where decisions are made passively, because of an unintended pregnancy.  And I realized how that might actually be something men who want marriage and fatherhood hope for.  Why not?  In our sexist society, the decision to marry is basically on the man.  Women are the ones who are supposed to be eager to get married, but they’re also the ones who are supposed to sit back and wait to be asked.  But asking is showing eagerness, but eagerness is supposed to be girly stuff, so I imagine that’s intimidating for a lot of dudes.  Ways to manage the slight emasculation inherent in picking out jewelry and showing interest in this wedding stuff include having a huge public proposal where people will side with you and her only role is to say “yes”, asking her father first and making it seem transactional, or getting over your hang-ups about masculinity and just asking.  Or….you could get her pregnant and be the conquering hero by making an honest woman of her.  As soon as I realized this, I realized what a powerful fantasy that must be to some men.  It’s the perfect way to get what you want (marriage, babies) without having to say you want that girly stuff. It certainly explained a handful of men’s erratic behavior and opinions that I’ve known in my time.  It was a pet theory of mine, but nothing I thought too much about beyond bullshitting over beers.


Well, no more is it merely a pet theory!  There’s now evidence that my pet theory has some grounding in reality.  The National Campaign to Prevent Teen and Unplanned Pregnancy surveyed men and women who said that preventing a pregnancy was important to them, and asked about how they’d feel if there was an unintended pregnancy despite precautions.  The results were staggering:  More than twice as many men as women reported they’d be pleased.

Now, the first thing that is weird and confusing about this is that anyone trying to avoid pregnancy would be pleased if it happened.  But it’s been known for a long time by researchers (and despite some quarrels I have with NCPTUP, I respect that they’re really looking into the ambivalence issue) that a whole lot of unintended pregnancy involves ambivalence.  Which makes sense—-only 40% of unintended pregnancies end in abortion, so many of the rest probably involve some level of wanting to have the baby even if the pregnancy was unintended.  Major decisions, such as when to get married or have a child, tend to involve ambivalence and a lot of people do in fact bop along hoping something will happen to make that decision happen for them.  But the gap between men and women was astounding: 43% of men and only 20% of women said they’d be pleased by an accidental pregnancy.

What really interested me, however, was that the shifting in the percentages tends to uphold my theory that a lot of men—-and some women, too—-see an unintended pregnancy as a way to get desired results without taking definitive action.  The older that both groups got, the more they indicated that they’d be pleased with an unplanned pregnancy, with slightly over half of men 25-29 who were trying to prevent pregnancy indicating they’d be happy if it happened anyway, but only 29% of women in that same age group.  While I’m sure a lot of factors went into people’s thinking, it seems the possibility of marriage and babies being chosen for you gets more attractive with age, as you might imagine.

So why the gap?  Are women less interested in marriage and babies than men?  I don’t think that’s it, though often you’ll find women are less enthusiastic about marriage in surveys, but not by this much.  It might be because a woman feels that her future is unknown a little more if she gets pregnant.  I suspect a lot of men who feel they’re in love think, “Well, if it happens, I’ll just suggest we get married, end of story.”  But for women who feel warmly about marriage with their partner, it’s not so simple. I know from women I’ve known who got pregnant and then married, the time between when you got pregnant and when he asked can be a very vulnerable time, and asking seems out of the question, because of that stereotype about women who trick men into marriage.  And if he doesn’t ask, then you actually have more decisions to make, not fewer.  Plus you just learned something really heart-breaking, if you were eager for marriage.  Of course, it’s technically true that a pregnant woman can turn down a marriage proposal, and perhaps men should worry about that.  But maybe they don’t, perhaps because it’s assumed that a woman who shoots you down will probably have an abortion.  To be clear, I’m only addressing the thought processes of the half of men that would be pleased.  I think the other half probably have a better grip on how many different outcomes are possible, and some of them really don’t want to face the marriage and babies question now or ever.

One extra thing pointed out in comments at Feministe that made a lot of sense to me was that the burden of pregnancy and child-rearing falls more on women than men, and so men may not take the situation as seriously on average.  There’s something to this, especially with men who are already predisposed to marry and have babies with their current partners.  In these cases, the most they’re probably thinking about is that marriage and babies, but maybe not so much career prospects or education.  Someone at The Sexist suggested that a lot of men might just be happy to find out their sperm works.  One hopes this is not the case, but I think in a few cases, it probably has an influence. We aren’t talking strictly rational reactions, after all.

Unfortunately, the National Campaign tends to run campaigns against unplanned pregnancy based on the premise that men are unreliable and you shouldn’t touch one until you’re ready to breed, and so I fear that they may use this information in unproductive ways.  I’d prefer a campaign encouraging more couples to talk to each other not just about contraception, but what they see happening if contraception fails.  There’s a real taboo against having that discussion, but it’s a really important one to have.  It’s no fun not being on the same page in the event of an unintended pregnancy.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 08:42 PM • (118) Comments

I can’t believe they chose an acronym for a pregnancy advocacy group that included the phoneme “tup.”

Perhaps it’s just the twelve year old in me sniggering at their choice of letters.

Comment #1: Falconer  on  03/02  at  08:51 PM

the burden of pregnancy and child-rearing falls more on women than men, and so men may not take the situation as seriously on average.

Bingo!  A woman know that no matter what happens to her relationship with that man, if she carries the pregnancy to term, she’s in for at least 18 years of child-rearing.  Unfortunately, no matter how involved most men say they plan to be with their children, the woman still ends up doing most of the childcare, taking the hit on her career, etc.

Comment #2: CParis  on  03/02  at  08:58 PM

One thing to keep in mind is that some of these couples with these attitudes are already married.  In fact, when it happened and I was married, he was way more positive than I was.

Comment #3: Ismone  on  03/02  at  09:06 PM

I had a long post, but it mostly came down to what Ismone said.

Comment #4: lonespark  on  03/02  at  09:19 PM

Oh, plus, birth control tends to fall more on the woman.  My accidental pregnancies meant I failed at taking my birth control properly.  I F’d up our collective life plan.  So plenty of ambivalence from that alone.

Comment #5: lonespark  on  03/02  at  09:20 PM

That’s peculiar. I know that if it happened my automatic reaction would be to do my best to express cheerful optimism but inside I would be nauseous and terrified and I would be so relieved if she said she didn’t want it. I wonder if the questionnaire provoked that kind of response in men, “yeah, of course I want a child” while wiping the cold sweat off the forehead.

Comment #6: pharmakos  on  03/02  at  09:21 PM

I’d prefer a campaign encouraging more couples to talk to each other not just about contraception, but what they see happening if contraception fails.

Hell yes.

Comment #7: lonespark  on  03/02  at  09:22 PM

I think not only is the long-term commitment of childcare element more prominent for women, but also the immense amount of work in having a baby. I’m pretty sure my last long term partner was under the impression that having a baby meant an adorable giggly new bundle would be occasionally placed in his arms, and the bundle would then morph over a short period of time into someone to coach in various sporting enterprises, until they went to college and left you alone. The sheer amount of work involved in a having a kid just didn’t seem to be “real” to him. I would, completely, have seen us as one of those couples wherein I’d still work full-time or beyond while being expected to care for house, boyfriend, and baby. Yeah, not happening. And plus my own expectations of motherhood, such as being able to stay home, or go back to work, or whatever, need to actually be part of a plan with my partner - the male partners might not be as heavily considering that, taking a “and then she’ll stay home and everything will be fine!” track.

Comment #8: Tenya  on  03/02  at  09:32 PM

You may have already read it, but I thought m. leblanc’s post at Bitch PhD was good on this (which I commented on). Also second or third Ismone. When it comes to having kids, my husband had a lot more of a “it’ll work out” attitude and was focused on the general abstract notion of just wanting kids. I was more worried about where the money will come from and how it will affect this and that. He was ready for number 2 pretty quickly after the first, and it took me a long time to feel up to it. And we had been married for almost five years when we had the first.

Comment #9: chingona  on  03/02  at  09:39 PM

Just wanted to add that my husband is a very involved father, particularly because I was the main wage-earner when our son was young, and now I work nights, leaving him to fend for himself from daycare pick-up through bedtime and beyond, so it’s not like he doesn’t know what goes into it. There certainly are gendered aspects of how we approach the subject, but it’s not like he’s the happy-go-lucky fun dad without a care in the world, and I’m the slave. It’s more subtle than that.

Comment #10: chingona  on  03/02  at  09:45 PM

We had one pregnancy scare before I got fixed, and both had the same reaction:  “Oh dear God, where are we going to get the money for an abortion?”

Hooray for being on the same page.

Comment #11: GeekGirlsRule  on  03/02  at  09:49 PM

Just two other thoughts, which I think sync up well with your data…

First, women give up a lot more to keep a pregnancy, physically and with our unbalanced gender roles—women doing more child care, which can get in the way of a career. An unplanned pregnancy is a reason for the guy to grow up and get serious about his career. For the girl, too often, to put hers on hold for half a decade (if not longer).

Second, apart from having power over a woman’s body, there is the issue of a man’s role in reproduction. The biological role is very limited, and after that, he tries to participate in ways that a woman can largely veto (unless patriarchy is strictly enforced). Abortion really drives the point home—it isn’t just the woman vetoing his marriage plans, she’s vetoing the entire reproductive act.

Comment #12: humanadverb  on  03/02  at  10:23 PM

Looking at the question, I also wonder whether a lot of guys are answering it in a very narrow way. If I had gotten someone pregnant unintentionally (ahem) I would have been pleased at some level by the fact that everything was in working order, even as I was looking up the number for the nearest clinic. I think that the combination of modern patriarchy and apparently ready access to abortion enables a some significant percentage of guys to take macho pride in their potency while still being secure in the knowledge that t their sex partner won’t be hitting them up for child support or a wedding license. Bonus jerkwad points if they make the woman get their “permission” to terminate.

Comment #13: paul  on  03/02  at  10:27 PM

Speaking as a man who has done a lot of work with children (as a counselor and preschool teacher) and as someone who really does do the lion’s share of child care in our family (even my wife will attest to that), I would have been terrified if there had been any unplanned pregnancies.  One of the scariest times for me was when my wife, before we were married, announced that she would not be getting an abortion if she became pregnant (though she is pro-choice as a matter of public policy).  I had to think long and hard about that, since I absolutely did not want to have kids until both of us were ready.  Fortunately, I stayed, and we had kids at a time more or less of our choosing.

I think having a lot of experience working with kids gave me a realistic idea of what it would be like to have to take care of them 24/7 (though nothing can totally prepare you for it…), so that I did not entertain any unrealistic fantasies about how wonderful it would be.  Don’t get me wrong—it’s wonderful, just not every single minute of the day. 

My father, by contrast, told my mother he wanted to have a house full of kids, but then turned out to not enjoy the reality of kids as much as his fantasy.  He was an only child who didn’t have a lot of experience with kids until he had some of his own. 

I realize that I am not a typical man in this regard, but I think if more young men (and older boys) had direct experience caring for other people’s children (in addition to a greater expectation of having to care for their own), then they would be far less likely to welcome a birth control failure.  Unfortunately, sexism tends to discourage males from caring for young children even if they want to.  Not only is it considered unmanly, but such males are often viewed with suspicion as potential child molesters, since many believe that no normal male wants to work with kids.  It’s sad really.

Comment #14: Captain Bathrobe  on  03/02  at  10:30 PM

I wonder how many of these guys are glad about an acccidental pregnancy—-and then change their minds when it’s too late for the women to do so. Gee, never see those shitty MRAs talk about that particular little injustice.

Comment #15: ginmar  on  03/02  at  10:32 PM

One of the women in my wife’s book club* just found out she’s pregnant again. It came as a surprise to her, but not her husband who, unknown to her, had been planning it. They are Mormon. At least, he is. I suspect she’s having second thoughts right about now.

* We’re also host to a science fiction book club that is mixed gender, which according to my wife, is a lot more fun.

Comment #16: Keith  on  03/02  at  10:33 PM

Unfortunately, abusers or control freaks would also be pleased that they have a way to jerk the poor woman around for another 20 years, at least.

A way to control her life, even if she is able to cut him out of the rest her life. A way to fuck her over through her love of the child.

And if you don’t think that would be a factor I’d suggest you read Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men, which includes an entire chapter on just that unfortunate phenom:
http://www.amazon.com/Why-Does-He-That-Controlling/dp/0425191656/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267579987&sr=8-1

Comment #17: judybrowni  on  03/02  at  10:36 PM

The gender gap in both the physical realities and in the social realities pretty much explains the entire difference. The vast majority of childrearing responsibilities fall on women - of course they’re not as happy about an unplanned pregnancy. If the US Government were giving away free cars to every couple with the requirement that the woman had to do at least 75% of the car maintenance, and would be blamed first if there was anything wrong with the car, of course you’d expect that men would be more excited and willing to accept the free car than women would be.

Comment #18: mythago  on  03/02  at  10:54 PM

I think the more egalitarian relationships become, the more men and women’s hopes and fears about having kids will align.  And by egalitarian, I mean objectively, measurably egalitarian—not, “isn’t he a great father because he changes the occasional diaper.”

Tangential to topic, Michael Chabon wrote an interesting essay about how easy it is to be thought of as a great father.  Essentially, all he had to do was be seen in public with his kids in order for total strangers to compliment him on his wonderful fathering, when all he was doing was the sort of thing mothers do every day without any special recognition.  I don’t know which is more pathetic—that the bar for being a good father is set so low, or that so many men fail to even reach it.

Comment #19: Captain Bathrobe  on  03/02  at  10:59 PM

Men have to confront, one step earlier than women, the possibility of an unplanned child.  A man doesn’t get to choose if the woman he has sex with has an abortion.  So I think while a woman might not really know what she’d do until she’s really facing the decision, a guy has to come to terms with what he’d do if she got pregnant and decided to keep it before he even has sex.

Especially in a long term relationship, a guy has already spent several months or years considering, month after month whenever her period was one or two days late, what he’d do if she got pregnant and decided to keep it.

Then it’s like the zombie apocalypse fantasy.  You get attached to the idea that you’d figure it out, you’d make it work.  You’re not entirely disappointed to see what happens.

Comment #20: Wallace  on  03/02  at  11:06 PM

It came as a surprise to her, but not her husband who, unknown to her, had been planning it.

Um… what exactly do you mean by that, Keith? Did he poke holes in condoms or replace her pills or something? Please explain.

Comment #21: felagund  on  03/02  at  11:18 PM

It’s very possible that a lot of men are only bothering with contraception because their girlfriends want them to.  Maybe he wants a kid now, but she’s not ready to go for it. 

I also think a lot of men coach themselves to be ready to marry a girl if she gets pregnant, and be happy about it.  Past high school, I’ve been amazed at how common the shotgun wedding is.

Comment #22: saraeanderson  on  03/02  at  11:20 PM

I hate to say it, but there’s probably also an evolutionary aspect that makes the male feel good about this sort of thing.  Many things about males are geared toward thwarting the ability of other males in their possible attempt to impregnate the female—including, per recent studies, even the shape of the human penis, whose mystery mushroom shape was discovered to be an amazingly effective scoop for the semen that remains in the vagina after a previous sexual encounter.  It may literally remove the sperm of a competitor.  (The male habit of going slack after ejaculation may also be preventing him from removing his own sperm.)  Fascinating stuff.  But I digress.

If a woman is pregnant with a man’s child, she is essentially “his”—she can’t become impregnated by another man, at least not during that pregnancy, and she depends on him for support.  The man is, temporarily or not, “safe.”  Add that to the fact that the child is usually her problem anyway, and of course it’s a bit of a high.  He can run; she can’t.  Which is all most of us want at the most basic level, anyway: to be able to do what we want while the people we want to stay bound to us stay bound.

Comment #23: cappysay  on  03/02  at  11:20 PM

pokemon - gotta impregnate em all

Comment #24: pharmakos  on  03/02  at  11:47 PM

cappysay @24: I think you should take a break from pop evo psych and read about other topics.  I’d recommend reading about logical fallacies, Abductive reasoning and Rationalization.  And, oh, sociology and anthropology.

Comment #25: sacundim  on  03/03  at  12:14 AM

It looks like the blog software doesn’t like URLs with parentheses in them.  The link to Rationalization (psychology) got mangled.

Comment #26: sacundim  on  03/03  at  12:16 AM

I think if more young men (and older boys) had direct experience caring for other people’s children (in addition to a greater expectation of having to care for their own), then they would be far less likely to welcome a birth control failure.

What Captain Bathrobe #15 said. I am guessing that a lot of young women have more experience than guys in looking after babies/kids, and therefore possess a fuller appreciation of the ramifications of that double line.  I had several thousand hours of babysitting under my belt prior to parenthood.  I think my husband had three.

Comment #27: Pomme  on  03/03  at  12:31 AM

Wallace—I think it depends on the guy. For a long time I bought into the “men don’t care, they can just take off” philosophy, but then it dawned on me that while women know their screwed until they turn 18 and they can legally make decisions for themselves (provided they can get access, but that’s another matter), men never reach a point where they can have ultimate veto power over having children.

It’s pretty clear that not all men feel this way, and there are plenty of men who see pregnancy as Not Their Problem.

I think the biological clock exists in some fashion: people tend to want to have children when they reach a point where they feel that they can (depending on their expectations), and that point exists in different places for different people depending on drive. For a former friend, that point existed right around the time she decided to drop out of high school, and kids were just something to do. For my sister, kids were a few years after marriage, but something she wanted sooner rather than later. For a lot of my peers, kids are when you’ve settled in, had a few years of carefree marriage, have a mortgage, and have settled into your career. For me, it’s shortly after the sun freezes.

But the important thing (and it’s definitely been mentioned here) is that for men, the “once you’re settled in” doesn’t have to be as carefully defined as it is for women, because men will not have to worry about taking maternity leave, getting mommytracked at their job, or the other hits to the carefully-constructed stability that was part of the thought-out breeding process. So it’s a lot easier for them to be pleasantly surprised by an unplanned pregnancy in this instance because it doesn’t derail anything.

And paul is absolutely right about how modern science has allowed men to completely reverse their thinking on pregnancy. I’m amazed at how many men I’ve talked to who believe that birth control is “unnatural” and that it shouldn’t be used. One hundred years ago, their great-great grandparents would have signed over the homestead for the ability to control their fertility like we do now. But because we have it, suddenly, we’ve turned into a bunch of toddlers who want to destroy it.

Comment #28: Mighty Ponygirl  on  03/03  at  12:42 AM

It was I who mentioned the sperm working theory.  My boyfriend and I are always befuddled when one of his male friends gets a girl pregnant and is then happy about it.  I’m sure there are a million actually rational reasons men are happier.  But imagining it is just finding out that they have functioning genitals is less depressing ( to me) than thinking about how it is probably a reflection of the fact that 1. they can leave if they really want 2. they wont be responsible for making or caring for the baby for the most part 3. they probably get a wife without all the risk or hassel of actually choosing to make a commitment 4. they are delusional about how hard it is actually going to be 5. they are forced to subvert their actual desires for a wife and kids because of social pressure 6. were there more I missed?

Comment #29: shinobi42  on  03/03  at  12:49 AM

Past high school, I’ve been amazed at how common the shotgun wedding is.

Even a shotgun wedding isn’t always a shotgun wedding.  My boss at work got engaged and they decided to start trying for a baby immediately because she’s in her early 40s and, as we all know, your eggs dry up by the time you’re 25. /snark

Yeah, that wedding had to be moved up pretty darn quick.

While it wasn’t an accidental pregnancy, you could probably say it was unplanned since the plan was for it to happen 6 months or a year down the road.  I sometimes wonder what definition of “unplanned” they use when they do these surveys.

Comment #30: Mnemosyne  on  03/03  at  12:52 AM

I’m taking my husband babysitting with me tomorrow because I recently learned that he’s actually *never* changed a diaper.  Ever.  Or given the kids a bath.  He’s a great uncle so far, but it’s just so weird - I changed my first diaper when I was 10 or younger.  Babysitting started at 11!  I do have a very large number of younger cousins, but still!

Comment #31: Mimi  on  03/03  at  12:54 AM

I wonder how much of this feeling feeds into the whole “male post-abortion syndrome” thing in younger men.  The girlfriend he wasn’t supposed to knock up is pregnant, so she’ll marry him, and quit her job, and spend all day at home looking after his new toys/children, and the whole house will revolve around him as the patriarch, and everyone will always be glad to see him when he bothers to come home, and his life will be sunshine and joy forever and ever.  But then the bitch has the nerve to go and abort his dreams.

Comment #32: preying mantis  on  03/03  at  12:57 AM

But because we have it, suddenly, we’ve turned into a bunch of toddlers who want to destroy it.

I may be misinterpreting what you mean here, but sometimes I think people who know they never want kids don’t fully understand the ambivalence people who do want kids can feel around unexpected pregnancies (or hell, planned pregnancies). Having kids is such a huge responsibility that it can be very hard to deliberately take that step, and there can be a sense in which it’s a relief to have the decision taken out of your hands. I really don’t think it’s that we want to destroy the ability to control our fertility. Outside the Quiverfull movement, just about nobody has tons of kids anymore. Five or six would be a large family by today’s standards. Hell, four is pushing it.

Comment #33: chingona  on  03/03  at  01:01 AM

Sacundum @26: granted that you have no idea who I am, and if I’d read that, I would also have assumed that I was some yokel reading Psychology Today and doing my nails.  Alas.  And I meant the penis-shape anecdote as a charming aside, not the basis for psychological conclusions.  Pipe down.

What I was saying is that it’s not safe to assume that people’s reactions are completely—completely—reasoned.  Most of the comments on this thread have made that assumption.  Much of this stuff is precognitive, and while we can point to sound empirical reasoning for the vast majority of people’s reactions to unplanned pregnancy, it would be full-blown daft to dismiss the subtler stuff out of hand.  Procreation is intensely primal, and male reactions to it have not been studied nearly as well as the female.

Comment #34: cappysay  on  03/03  at  01:11 AM

felagund@22:

I’m not privy to the details, having heard about this second hand. I just thought it telling that, at a semi-public event, in the presence of women she doesn’t know very well, this wman told everyone that her husband had been planning on her getting pregnant. I’m not sure how much of it was actual planning an dhow much of it was simply happenstance (him being pleased that they were going to have another child), or if he was actively plotting, marking days on the callendar to trackher period or what have you.

Comment #35: Keith  on  03/03  at  01:12 AM

I think it was the number of guys professing to believe that birth control is unnatural and that people shouldn’t use it that prompted the toddler reaction, not that people who get an oops pregnancy sometimes feel happy about it.

Comment #36: preying mantis  on  03/03  at  01:14 AM

preying, that’s not even the subtext of their claims.  You described the complaint of the “post-abortive” man word for word, which is another reason I developed this theory.  Conservatives don’t really hide that they think unintended pregnancy is what god does to people to convince them to marry and act right; a lot of conservative men openly act entitled to impregnate a woman on “accident” and then control her future from there on out.  And when it doesn’t happen that way, they happily talk about how they were robbed of their right to her womb.

Comment #37: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/03  at  01:19 AM

Men have the luxury of being cow-eyed romantics about the idea of soft tiny baybees (My offspring! I will cuddle it and teach it to catch!) and adorably pregnant female partners (I’ll go out in the middle of the night and get her ice cream!). Women are by necessity the pragmatists with an eye toward prolonged physical changes/discomfort, cataclysmic changes in their current lifestyle and 18+ years of responsibility for another living being. In my experience anyway.

Comment #38: mir  on  03/03  at  01:21 AM

I’ll add that the script of ambivalence—-hoping an unplanned pregnancy decides for you—-is of interest because it so often doesn’t work out. National Campaign is probably inspired by Guttmacher research. Not every kinda accident ends with a wedding and baby. There’s reason to believe a lot of men who feel positive in the abstract may bail in reality, leading to one of those common abortions where a woman indicates she doesn’t have her partner’s support.

We see ambivalence when it works out, but it’s not benign.

Comment #39: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/03  at  01:28 AM

I imagine that this is at least partly a result of the idea, somewhere inside the fella’s brain, that once his partner is pregnant, that she can’t leave him, regardless of the effects of pregnancy on anyone’s career/education decisions.

Comment #40: pixelpaper  on  03/03  at  01:39 AM

Amanda @ 40 ... absolutely. I’m not disputing that. And there’s always the thing ... no one ever knows what was one the road not taken.

But at the same time, ambivalence isn’t something that just unmarried or unsettled couples experience around this issue. A lot of married couples experience it too.

Comment #41: chingona  on  03/03  at  01:53 AM

Or that her pregnancy is somehow “proof” of his masculinity, and if she gets an abortion,  she’s somehow feminized him.  (In Homer Simpson voice)  “You acted like the man!  Which makes me the woman!  And I have no interest in that, save for wearing the underwear, which is, as we’ve agreed, strictly a comfort thing.”

I wonder how many of these guys are glad about an acccidental pregnancy—-and then change their minds when it’s too late for the women to do so. Gee, never see those shitty MRAs talk about that particular little injustice.

Nah, that’s when the MRAs bring up their “financial abortion” idea—that men should be able to disavow any financial obligation for the upcoming child anywhere between conception and birth.  Five minutes before the head crowns?  All he has to do is sign a paper and poof!—you’re on your own, cupcake.  Because hey—women can get abortions any time during the nine months of pregnancy, so why shouldn’t the guys get the same opportunity, amiright?

Comment #42: Blue Jean  on  03/03  at  01:56 AM

This is the least surprising opinion poll finding I’ve ever seen.  I love children of all ages, even babies, and I’ve always believed I’d adore having kids if I could do so as a father.  Playing sports, getting cookies for babysitting or helping the wife, providing for my family, reaping the favoritism that one’s kids and society still shower on daddy instead of mommy: what’s not to like? 

But everything about being a mother horrifies me, from the first symptoms of pregnancy (or what I know of them—I am 99% percent sure I have never been pregnant) through the social construction of the status, which goes on until you die.  I’d run not walk to the abortion clinic if I ever became pregnant.  Adoption is not an option for me, because I can do it only as a mother.

Because I (despite being a het woman) would be thrilled by the news that I was going to be a dad—and have always used redundant birth control with fanatic diligence, because my own body and life were on the line—I think both sets of results make perfect sense.

Comment #43: Unree  on  03/03  at  03:03 AM

What I was saying is that it’s not safe to assume that people’s reactions are completely—completely—reasoned.

Well, sure.  But just because a response is unreasoned doesn’t make it instinctive.  For instance, homophobes “just know” that gay sex is gross, they don’t have to think about it.  Even so, there is motivation behind the “automatic” responses.  Gay sex is gross because men’s bodies are gross, because to say men’s bodies aren’t gross is to say that women’s bodies aren’t hot, because men can’t have anything in common with women, because being a woman is shameful, and being penetrated is a woman thing, therefore it is shameful, and gross, so gay sex is gross.  This is one of the motivations behind homophobia towards gay men, and most homophobes don’t go through any line of reasoning like this.  They don’t need to.  Their entire culture has been sending out these messages their entire life.  They don’t need to reason it out the same way they don’t need to think about speaking in their native tongue.  It’s just there.

Comment #44: Denise  on  03/03  at  03:07 AM

By far the biggest abortionist in the world is The Lord Jeezus.  My wife and I got her pregnant thrice.  The first pregnancy resulted in our daughter.  Jeezus took away the second and third pregnancies by miscarriages, aka spontaneous abortions.

Comment #45: Frederick R  on  03/03  at  03:50 AM

“Someone at The Sexist suggested that a lot of men might just be happy to find out their sperm works. “

When I was 19, I was dating a guy who had had a lot of medical treatment as a child, including open heart surgery, and it had significantly affected his growth (he was 105 lbs).  Also, his testicles were significantly asymmetric.  The condom broke, I got pregnant.  He was in agreement with me that the right solution was abortion and traveled hundreds of miles to hold my hand during the abortion.  He was also relieved to know he wasn’t infertile.  I don’t think this is actually an entirely unreasonable reaction.

Comment #46: Dr. Confused  on  03/03  at  04:24 AM

I’ve also had an “unplanned” pregnancy that I carried to term and we are parenting our daughter.  This was very clearly a different situation than my first pregnancy.  I was ten years older, in graduate school, and married.  We had agreed that while looking for tenure-track jobs was not the right time to get pregnant or have a very small child.  I had made an appointment to have an IUD put in: they had given me the initial consultation and examination but for some reason I couldn’t have the actual device put in for another 6 weeks (maybe they had to order it?).  We were very rarely having sex (I was working hard on the last bits of my PhD thesis) and weren’t using birth control.

When the pregnancy test turned out positive, I was ambivalent-to-happy.  My husband was thrilled.  The timing was not ideal but the truth was we both were ready for a child.  Our logical deliberations about my career did not really take into account our real emotions.

I did a phone interview at 36 weeks pregnant and had to tell them I couldn’t come to the in-person interview because the airlines would not allow me to fly after 37 weeks.  I did the in-person interview when my daughter was 6 weeks old.  I got the job.

Comment #47: Dr. Confused  on  03/03  at  04:32 AM

What preying mantis @33 said.

Also, I wonder if this is what births the MRA opposite coin types that whine about “bitch set me up with child support”. They try and get into that patriarchy club and they either chicken out when it gets close or time or the woman too late to get an abortion realizes they don’t want the patriarchal asshole at the least and they feel they were denied the “dream” by evil women and now they need to pay for it. My biological bolted when the idea turned into an actual baby he’d have to take care of and then proceeded to bitch about and run away from child support and from what I’ve seen, this isn’t an uncommon story.

I think a lot of it is the patriarchal pressures heaped on men.

The sperm thing is a big part as others note. Potency is still treated as a big manhood marker probably since black people culturally won the penis size war (not necessarily in reality, but in public perceptions of manliness which is all that matters here). And 50 years after the Mad Men era, there still is a sort of “pity the half-man” sort of way other men deal with someone who is unintentionally firing blanks. Basically you can’t be a man unless you can severely inconvenience a woman with your unsheathed dick. This potency worry is a big deal. One of the four ending arguments for anti-choice types is sperm magic and the need to believe that sperm works as the sole active part of the reproductive process and the solely important aspect. There is anthropomorphization in the pride taken in having “strong sperm”. Even the facial alludes to the power of the sperm and how he and he alone will determine where his essence will go. And let’s not forget General Ripper.

There’s also the fact that “house, wife, kids” are still to a large degree carrying their 50s advertising power as status symbols and symbols of maturity. For a good number of young often white men dreaming of the middle class, having the patriarchal complete set is what is supposed to separate the dreamy hedonistic days of young adulthood from the proud mature days of “actual” adulthood. It’s the big growing up moment as sold on TV. And an accidental pregnancy is still seen as Amanda and others noted a great shortcut. Now there’s no choice but to grow up and here’s where I’ll prove myself as a proud 50s era patriarch over my family and earn that “respect” from the world and my due as properly middle class. And I doubt it goes entirely unnoticed the cultural pressure on women to just accept any offer on moving to that patriarchal women-devouring state under the stress of unplanned for pregnancies and thus propositions to marriage and this ideal are seen as more of a “gimme” under this circumstance versus the more emotionally fragile and fraught propositions when she has more cultural freedom to decline (there’s a vulnerability in “traditionally” bending the knee at a romantic dinner or having her look up at the giant Jumbotron). Plus, the man gets to play-act the hero “rescuing” his damsel-in-distress.

Combine all of that with the patriarchal notion that the man won’t have to personally deal with the unsavory acts of child-rearing and will just be able to relax and enjoy the fun parts like teaching the boys sports or being treated like a hero just for existing by the daughters, and there’s a picture painted to lure a lot of men into a particularly venomous mode of thinking about accidental pregnancy.

Comment #48: Cerberus  on  03/03  at  05:17 AM

The asymmetric rewards and costs of parenting are such a huge chunk of this that I can’t get over it. Women are people and people are rational; if two generations of women before us explain to us in detail how having babies derailed their lives completely, then we’re going to listen. For men, having a partner and family can still mean having someone in your corner - someone who knows when the bills are due and makes you nice dinners and follows you around the country making sure your suits are clean. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to be part of a family and be supported. Of course there’s everything wrong with being relegated to being support staff in your own life, and seeing everyone dismiss you as an employment risk, a boring mom, and a moo-cow breeder (variously) for decades.

Of course, there is an element of decency in being mildly pleased: being set firmly against can only translate, in practical action, as “you’re getting that abortion or I’m ditching you.” And I’m okay with calling men who say that jerks.

Comment #49: purpleshoes  on  03/03  at  09:28 AM

I posted something last night.  I’m taking it back.  I wasn’t making a distinction between “would want her to keep it” and “would be pleased she was pregnant”.

Comment #50: Wallace  on  03/03  at  09:46 AM

A woman can be a woman without becoming a mother, but many men don’t consider themselves men until they have a child.  That’s just one more bit to throw into the stew of reasonable and unreasonable reasons for the discrepancy.

As a half-serious aside, I’d like to add that an additional part of every sex ed class should be the possibility of using a microscope and seeing student sperm in action.  I know there are more privacy and accident liability issues than any school could ever handle, but it would still be cool.  (I know it can’t ever happen, but it would still be really cool.)  Women get a monthly-ish reminder that things are working (even when they aren’t working entirely,) but most men aren’t really sure unless a pregnancy results.

Comment #51: 3letterjon  on  03/03  at  09:56 AM

Heh, the MRAs like to claim that women want to get pregnant to force them into marriage, but it seems be the complete reverse.  Maybe all the MRAs really just want to shame a woman into marrying them, but they haven’t been successful at causing an unplanned pregnancy so they’re resentful.  Maybe their real problem is with women having the power to use birth control pills or insist that the man use a condom.

Comment #52: bananacat  on  03/03  at  10:12 AM

MRAs have problems with women, period.  They are very consistent when seen from that perspective.

Comment #53: 3letterjon  on  03/03  at  10:34 AM

Someone at The Sexist suggested that a lot of men might just be happy to find out their sperm works.

I don’t really buy into this as a reason for the discrepancy.  I think women who have never been pregnant before might also find some relief to know that their reproduction works, if they want to have kids some day.  Women are the ones who are constantly being told about the ticking clock and that infertility is always their fault and that it’s just so fragile that any minor transgression could ruin their oven forever.  Even get a monthly period is certainly no guarantee that things are working.  We’ve been told plenty of times that women’s fertility decreases long before menopause.

I think the biggest reason for the discrepancy is simply the difference in child care responsibilities, which plenty of other people have mentioned.  First of all, there’s the horror that is pregnancy and childbirth.  Every woman experiences it differently, but let’s face it: there’s no pleasant way to squeeze a newborn skull through your cervix.  Then of course women have to face the decision of continuing to work or quitting their job, knowing that they will be judged harshly no matter what decision they make.  Most of them can’t count on their husband quitting his job, and many women wouldn’t even consider asking that of their husband.  And since women already do more domestic work than men even while working full time, adding a baby into the mix will add a lot more work for them.  The biggest concern for the typical dood is the extra expense.  If the couple isn’t married or living together, a lot of men probably think it would be pretty easy for her to just move in with him and not work.  If he can run his household on his salary, it can’t cost that much more to add two extra people, right?  Because of the way our society is set up, many childless adults have never cared for a baby, and this is especially true for men.  A lot of women can find babysitting jobs, but a lot of parents are reluctant to leave their child alone with any man, and not many teenage boys would want to do something that’s consider so girly in the first place.  If it’s a married couple that already has kids, the father might not realize how much work it really is, since his wife has been handling most of it.  So maybe the kids are finally old enough that they don’t need as much care, and the mother is looking forward to finally having a break and maybe going back to work and having a career.  So if an unplanned pregnancy happens, it could ruin all the women’s short-term dreams while everything remains the same for the man.

Comment #54: bananacat  on  03/03  at  10:37 AM

A woman can be a woman without becoming a mother, but many men don’t consider themselves men until they have a child.  That’s just one more bit to throw into the stew of reasonable and unreasonable reasons for the discrepancy.

I don’t really think this is true.  Single, childless women are often considered less than other women.  Of course, women are considered nothing until they trap a man, and after they manage that, everyone will ask them when they plan to have a baby.  For conservatives, woman is equated with mother in their minds.  That’s why they’ll insist that women shouldn’t be in the military because then she would be neglecting her children.  It never even occurs to them that women without children might want to join the military.  And their entire problem with working women is really that women are somehow neglecting their children.  Working women who don’t have children don’t even enter their thoughts.

Comment #55: bananacat  on  03/03  at  10:41 AM

I think a lot of people, both male and female, buy into the myth that the greatest thing that can ever happen to them is that they will have a child, for these people accidentely getting pregnant is like accidentely going to disneyland or something.  They don’t realize that they at least eighteen-years of work ahead of them, more if they really want to see their spawn thrive in adulthood.

Our culture worships children and many people want to have their little diety as soon as they can whether they admit it or not.

Comment #56: John Rove  on  03/03  at  10:44 AM

Five minutes before the head crowns?  All he has to do is sign a paper and poof!—you’re on your own, cupcake.

Exactly.  Pregnancy is for trapping women, didn’t you know!

Though of course, child support is not a trap in the way being married because you can’t support yourself alone is.

Comment #57: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/03  at  10:45 AM

Dr. @47, most men do not have your guy’s problems.  I realize infertility is something that bothers a lot of people in the age of reliable contraception—-because there’s always an off-chance—-but it’s something I think most healthy people with no outside reason to think they’re infertile shouldn’t be overly concerned about, anymore than it’s healthy to fixate on whether you have cancer.  Get tested for potential problems, but on the whole, most people are fertile.

Comment #58: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/03  at  10:49 AM

Of course, there is an element of decency in being mildly pleased: being set firmly against can only translate, in practical action, as “you’re getting that abortion or I’m ditching you.” And I’m okay with calling men who say that jerks.

The main reason this is an issue is people don’t set out expectations ahead of time.  We use contraception, but it’s taboo to say, “What if it fails?” and decide beforehand.  If an abortion is the agreed-upon course of action, and she decides that she doesn’t want it, then he’s not a jerk for immediately terminating the relationship on the grounds that she broke her promise.  Now, he’s on the legal hook for child support, in the same way a woman who didn’t know she was pregnant is—-children have rights, even if unwanted.  But I usually recoil at any and all suggestions that someone should continue in a relationship when they’ve withdrawn their enthusiastic consent.

Comment #59: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/03  at  11:02 AM

#56 catgirl, I wasn’t saying that was THE reason, just one of many.  Yeah, stupidity is also found in women and attitudes toward women, but there’s certainly something (among many other things) that compels some men to hurry up and have a child to prove that they are a man.  They might not have a decent job or any parenting skills, but damnit they’ve got a woman to have a baby for them, so they’re A Man.  Part of the cluelessness of some men actually allows their control issues toward women to not really involve the women at all, which makes the fact of their desire to control women completely unthinkable if that’s ever proposed to them, since they don’t really think of women as thinking people at all.

Getting inside other people’s heads isn’t always easy or productive, but sometimes there’s just gaps in the thinking rather than actual logical fallacies.  Ignorance is hard to counter because it can’t always be dealt with using logic.  There’s no victory in proving someone wrong unless they actually figure out they’ve lost the argument.  I often get a headache when I try to understand or just deal with ignorant people, but I get pretty good at it from my job working at a prison.

Comment #60: 3letterjon  on  03/03  at  11:11 AM

I think there is some truth to the “wanting to be supportive” argument some people are making.  I agree with Amanda that people should decide ahead of time what they’re doing, but that isn’t realistic for a lot of very young people or people in casual sexual relationships.  And I’m not sure it entirely avoids the problem.  Before my first pregnancy, I was one of those people who are pro-choice in principle, but “I could never do it.”  Then I got pregnant.  I was an immature 19 and completely overwhelmed.  My boyfriend was willing to do whatever I wanted: he said he’d drop out of school for a year (his parents would have financially supported him/us) to help me.  But when I asked what *he* would do if it were *his* choice, he said he would have an abortion.  Only then could I realize that is what I needed and wanted as well, and it was a great relief when he brought it up because then it seemed like the obvious choice.

But if I had decided to carry the pregnancy to term?  I think he could have mustered some enthusiasm for that.  And perhaps that would have been for the better in those circumstances.

Comment #61: Dr. Confused  on  03/03  at  11:48 AM

Dr. Confused—hindsight is 20/20. And I know people who “mustered enthusiasm” for it by having to tamp down their own misery. Where every 2 hour complaint session is prefaced with “don’t get me wrong, I love my children and I can’t imagine my life without them but…” followed by a litany of how shit their life is. I know I’m just a heartless childfree bitch for this, but they really should have just had the abortion and waited until they were ready to love and care for a child without all the resentment.

I understand that trying to imagine your life without your children is hard for parents because to do so you have to mentally murder your children, but that gets back to the whole “what if you were aborted” canard. If you have an abortion for a fetus that would eventually become freckle-faced, precocious Sally, you’ve stopped that from happening but you haven’t “murdered” Sally. You’ve just prevented Sally from happening. And if you decided to have Sally when you’re 19, then maybe you wouldn’t have adorable, tow-headed Hayden when you’re 32 because you’re done having kids. So we’re always *preventing* children from coming into this world unless we want to be the Duggars. It’s just a question of which sprog you end up with. There’s no way to know, but I really don’t hear a lot of parents complaining to their Haydens that they wish they’d had Sally instead.

Comment #62: Mighty Ponygirl  on  03/03  at  12:03 PM

So we’re always *preventing* children from coming into this world unless we want to be the Duggars.

No, they’re preventing as many children as everyone else.  For each pregnancy, there are about 9 eggs that will never be ovulated and never fertilized.  There are trillions of sperm that never make a baby during that time too.  They abstain from sex for 40 to 80 days after each birth (depending on gender of the child), and Michelle breastfeeds which suppresses some ovulation.  And of course, they’re not having sex every second of every day, so there are plenty of children that are never conceived by them.  And we all know how many fertilized eggs fail to implant, so she’s likely having a “miscarriage” every time she menstruates.  And the oldest children have likely been fertile for years but only one of them is currently reproducing.  There are hundreds of prevented children among the menstruating daughters alone.  That family has prevented trillions of children, just like everyone else.  And extra 20 or so doesn’t even make a dent in that.

Comment #63: bananacat  on  03/03  at  12:20 PM

catgirl, of course, but they aren’t using birth control or abortion, so they aren’t “artificially” preventing children, which is a distinction.

Comment #64: Mighty Ponygirl  on  03/03  at  12:25 PM

that I personally haven’t thought enough about how serious a decision abortion must be for women and how tragic it always, always is.

While these men are assholes, being pleased when your partner is pregnant is a good thing for everyone, because it means you are likely to stick around, and invest time, energy, and money in the child. Rather than run away pouting, saying “I never wanted to have a kid in the first place. You’re on your own.” Women know they’re essentially stuck with the kid, like it or not.

The question to ask would be, “If your partner got pregnant accidentally and decided to have an abortion, what would be your reaction?”

Comment #65: Hector B.  on  03/03  at  12:30 PM

I mean if the woman decides to carry the pregnancy to term, of course.

Comment #66: Hector B.  on  03/03  at  12:35 PM

“While these men are assholes, being pleased when your partner is pregnant is a good thing for everyone, because it means you are likely to stick around, and invest time, energy, and money in the child.”

Except that it’s already been discussed, in this very thread even, that being pleased when your partner is pregnant != being pleased when the idea of a baby turns into the reality of a baby != having any real intention to support the mother or parent the child.  Being pleased with a pregnancy means you’re likely to stick around in about the same way that having a fertilized egg knocking around in your reproductive tract means you’re a mother.

Comment #67: preying mantis  on  03/03  at  12:46 PM

Single, childless women are often considered less than other women.

I think you misunderstood 3letterjon a bit.  A woman is always a woman—she may be a better or worse woman than others, but no one questions someone’s womanhood the way men will question each other’s manhood.  We don’t even have a word for it, but we have lots of words for it when it refers to men (manhood, manliness, machismo, etc).

Comment #68: Mnemosyne  on  03/03  at  12:58 PM

I wonder how many of these guys are glad about an acccidental pregnancy—-and then change their minds when it’s too late for the women to do so. Gee, never see those shitty MRAs talk about that particular little injustice. Ginmar
Ginmar, I think that’s where these MRA come from TBH.They will say she Oops him for money and now their lives are ruined because of child support.

Comment #69: pitbullgirl65  on  03/03  at  01:00 PM

that being pleased when your partner is pregnant != being pleased when the idea of a baby turns into the reality of a baby != having any real intention to support the mother or parent the child.

The reality of any situation turns out to be far more tedious than the idea of it. Better to start cheerfully and optimistically than to have to be dragged, kicking and screaming.

Comment #70: Hector B.  on  03/03  at  01:06 PM

Mnemosyne—I’ve read interviews with women who’ve recently had children that absolutely contradicted you. Believe it or not, a lot of women get on a high horse after they’ve birthed a child about how doing so has elevated them to their highest purpose as a woman, and have no problem saying so in the glossy mags.

Comment #71: Mighty Ponygirl  on  03/03  at  01:16 PM

Mnemo, I have to agree with Mighty Ponygirl. I lost count of how many people (almost exclusively older women) told me how my life was just starting, or how I was doing the most important thing I’d ever do when I was successfully pregnant for the first time. I remain grateful that I was able to hold back my temper long enough retain my job for those last few months.

That’s another gender difference though. Even though I was unambiguously pleased with my planned pregnancy, I was furious with the way people talked to me while I was pregnant, and my husband not only didn’t experience it, he didn’t really understand why it bothered me. People who acted as if nothing I’d ever done before was important, people who insisted on addressing me as Mommy as though my name had ceased to exist, people who questioned my every move for safety (That box is too heavy! Did you ask your dr if you should get this flu shot? Is it ok to eat that?). I was stunned by the degree to which I immediately stopped being a person in my own right in so many eyes. My husband got questions about money, smirks and high fives about his working equipment, and commiseration about having to do more housework while I threw up five times a day. And, because he’s a man who will never cease to be an individual in society’s eyes, he really didn’t understand why it was a big deal to me that two of my coworkers now called me Mommy.

I can’t imagine dealing with those people during a pregnancy that I wasn’t certain I wanted.

Comment #72: Av0gadro  on  03/03  at  01:29 PM

I’ve read interviews with women who’ve recently had children that absolutely contradicted you. Believe it or not, a lot of women get on a high horse after they’ve birthed a child about how doing so has elevated them to their highest purpose as a woman, and have no problem saying so in the glossy mags.

Again, I don’t think you’re understanding the point.  It’s not whether one woman is more “womanly” than another.  It’s questioning the very premise that she’s a woman at all

Just as being white is constructed as being not-other, being a man is constructed as being not-woman.  If a man has anything in common with a woman, then he’s Not A Man.  Women don’t spend a whole lot of time worrying that other women are going to mock them and belittle them for not being Real Women.  Women don’t generally get drunk and start demanding that their friends perform feats of strength to prove they’re Real Women.  Women don’t joke about how their friend’s partner has rendered their friend powerless by cutting her ovaries off.

We have a word for a man who’s not a man anymore:  emasculated.  What’s the female equivalent?

Comment #73: Mnemosyne  on  03/03  at  01:38 PM

That’s another gender difference though. Even though I was unambiguously pleased with my planned pregnancy, I was furious with the way people talked to me while I was pregnant, and my husband not only didn’t experience it, he didn’t really understand why it bothered me. People who acted as if nothing I’d ever done before was important, people who insisted on addressing me as Mommy as though my name had ceased to exist, people who questioned my every move for safety (That box is too heavy! Did you ask your dr if you should get this flu shot? Is it ok to eat that?). I was stunned by the degree to which I immediately stopped being a person in my own right in so many eyes. My husband got questions about money, smirks and high fives about his working equipment, and commiseration about having to do more housework while I threw up five times a day. And, because he’s a man who will never cease to be an individual in society’s eyes, he really didn’t understand why it was a big deal to me that two of my coworkers now called me Mommy.

This.  Absolutely a thousand times this. 

I planned both my pregnancies and my kids weren’t oops or accidents or anything like that.  But I did not enjoy the process of being pregnant one single bit.  There’s all the physical stuff, which is just downright miserable, even with a healthy pregnancy and no/few complications, but then there’s all the other social stuff as well.  Pregnant women really, truly cease to exist as individuals in the eyes of a *lot* of people—the only thing that matters about us while we’re pregnant is the fact of being pregnant and we become public property in a way that men will never have to face.  It is irritating and infuriating as all hell.

Comment #74: ks  on  03/03  at  01:41 PM

Well, having been called (erroneously and perjoratively) a “dyke” because I wasn’t sufficiently womanly enough with my cargo shorts and combat boots, and having little boys in the supermarket point me out and loudly declare that I’m a boy with long braids (because I don’t wear makeup), I’m just going to have to disagree with you on that one.

Comment #75: Mighty Ponygirl  on  03/03  at  01:42 PM

I lost count of how many people (almost exclusively older women) told me how my life was just starting, or how I was doing the most important thing I’d ever do when I was successfully pregnant for the first time.

How many of them told you that you had finally proved to them that you were actually a woman?

Again, telling you that you’re a better woman for being pregnant is not the same as telling you that you weren’t a woman at all before you were pregnant.

There are Alpha (dominant/manly)  Males and Beta (submissive/feminine) Males.  What is the female equivalent?

Comment #76: Mnemosyne  on  03/03  at  01:43 PM

Well, having been called (erroneously and perjoratively) a “dyke” because I wasn’t sufficiently womanly enough with my cargo shorts and combat boots, and having little boys in the supermarket point me out and loudly declare that I’m a boy with long braids (because I don’t wear makeup), I’m just going to have to disagree with you on that one.

Again, you’re not getting my point.  How many of your friends called you a “dyke” in public because you weren’t acting the way they wanted you to?  How often did your friends tell you that doing things your partner liked made you less of a woman?  How often did they demand that you prove your womanhood to them by talking about, say, fashion the way men demand that other men prove their manhood by talking about sports?

Comment #77: Mnemosyne  on  03/03  at  01:47 PM

Mnemosyne, I have read interviews where women have said JUST THAT. That if you don’t have children, you’re not a woman at all.

Comment #78: Mighty Ponygirl  on  03/03  at  01:49 PM

I commented about this very subject a few days ago on DailyKos: “It kind of speaks volumes about what it takes to carry on the human race, doesn’t it?”

Looks to me like what leads up to a lot of pregnancies are things like a lack of planning or foresight, a conscious decision to throw thought out the window… or, subterfuge and manipulation. How many “oops” pregnancies are due to a unilateral decision to get pregnant, or to make the other pregnant, without consideration for the other’s point of view?

Doesn’t make me feel too good about parenting, if so many babies are conceived in an atmosphere of trickery, manipulation, and putting procreation over the sanctity of partnership. It almost is more honorable to conceive a child during a drunken romp where they’re too loopy to remember the condom in the heat of the moment…

Comment #79: Lucy Montrose  on  03/03  at  01:52 PM

Of course guys are happier about an unintended pregnancy. They don’t have as much on the line.

Every single pregnancy risks the health and life of the mother. At a minimum, it changes her body permanently, in ways that our society finds less attractive. It will probably make her feel very sick and uncomfortable for many months. There is a very real danger of death or serious injury during the pregnancy, even with modern medicine. After childbirth, she will have to leave her job for several weeks. She may be “on-call” to nurse at all hours of the day and night. 

Guys don’t have to deal with any of the physical effects of pregnancy, including the real risk of death.  Of course they’re happier. It’s not their life or health on the line.

Comment #80: Dawn  on  03/03  at  01:58 PM

I have been told I’m not a woman, because I refuse to have children. I’ve been told this many, many times. In person, and by the media.

Comment #81: Well, what?  on  03/03  at  02:06 PM

How many of your friends called you a “dyke” in public because you weren’t acting the way they wanted you to?  How often did your friends tell you that doing things your partner liked made you less of a woman?

You’re assuming that all men experience this from their friends. My husband, for example, would not be called a girl or Not A Man because he wouldn’t have friends like that because he’s not a homophobe and doesn’t tollerate homophobia and misogyny in his friends. And for that matter, I know a lot of people who, if I cared to have them as friends and vice versa, would bully me for being a dyke if I let my legs get a little shaggy or if I was comfortable leaving the house in flannel. Of course, the fact that my gay and lesbian friends joke about me being an honorary lesbian for these things is a different beast, but there are plenty of women who feel that they need to police other women’s gender.

Comment #82: Mighty Ponygirl  on  03/03  at  02:07 PM

Nota bene: they haven’t said, “you’re a BAD woman, or you’re a lesser woman.” Their exact words have been, “not a woman.” Apparently until I spawn I am the exact same thing as a five-year-old girl.

Comment #83: Well, what?  on  03/03  at  02:10 PM

How many of your friends called you a “dyke” in public because you weren’t acting the way they wanted you to?  How often did your friends tell you that doing things your partner liked made you less of a woman?

Yes, I experienced that. In high school, where you can’t exactly get away from those who behave like that without entering into social isolation. Once I graduated from there and gained more control over my ability to socialize with people on a day-to-day basis, women like that became women I really have no desire to have _any_ sort of social relationship with, much less friendship.

My question is: why would a an adult man continue to call someone who questioned his maleness regularly a friend? I’ve come across women, and groups of women, who behave that way. As an adult, I can make the choice not to engage in any sort of social relationships with them. A few of my female neighbors are these type of women—and thus, I do not have relationships with them.

Comment #84: hp  on  03/03  at  02:27 PM

I think you misunderstood 3letterjon a bit.  A woman is always a woman—she may be a better or worse woman than others, but no one questions someone’s womanhood the way men will question each other’s manhood.  We don’t even have a word for it, but we have lots of words for it when it refers to men (manhood, manliness, machismo, etc).

Yes, I see that I did misunderstand your point and we are talking about two slightly different topics.  Your point and mine are both correct.  Getting someone pregnant can make a man seem manlier or more macho, like growing chest hair, not bathing, and being homophobic.  Women face an even greater pressure to have babies, but it’s usually not really about expressing femininity in the same way as wearing pink floral dresses or learning how to knit.

Comment #85: bananacat  on  03/03  at  02:30 PM

Mnemosyne—I’ve read interviews with women who’ve recently had children that absolutely contradicted you. Believe it or not, a lot of women get on a high horse after they’ve birthed a child about how doing so has elevated them to their highest purpose as a woman, and have no problem saying so in the glossy mags.

Okay, let’s not mommy-blame about how some people are very proud that they carried through on a decision to incubate and produce a new human being even though it meant long discomfort, several days of terrible pain, and a risk of killing them dead. It is perfectly legitimate to be proud of yourself for doing something that hardcore. It’s not the only hardcore thing worth being proud of, of course - who would say that? - but it is the most accessible to a lot of people who never imagine themselves working for Doctors without Borders or otherwise, you know, risking death in order to carry out a goal. To my mind they are allowed exactly as much smugness - that is, a year down the line, I don’t still need to be hearing about it every freaking time we talk, but some initial backpatting and lifelong sense of accomplishment for getting through something really tough seems really apt.

As far as “really being a woman” - well, there is a component of privilege that looks a lot like borrowed male privilege in never being visibly pregnant or giving birth - your career carries on uninterrupted, you never spurt milk in public, you’re not cast in the Mommy role whether you like it or not, your lifelong earnings don’t take the permanent dive that people who had to quit work in order to shove a human through their vag did. There are also multiple systems in the body that remain undeveloped - our culture prizes, for instance, the shape of breasts that have never lactated and hips that have never been subjected to hearty doses of relaxin and then had a watermelon-sized infant shoved through them, even though those are some of the many normal functions of breasts and hips. I suppose to some women, having the functions of their body relegate them to the Mommy Ghetto at least gives them the ability to gender-police women who can’t or don’t use those functions, which means retaining some sense of power and control. Personally, I hate this whole thing in which women who have children and women who don’t are Forever and Completely at war about who has a rightful place in society and deserves basic social integration, labor protections, &c;.

Comment #86: purpleshoes  on  03/03  at  02:43 PM

Weighing in to agree with Well, What and Mighty Ponygirl on the “you’re not a woman until you’ve procreated” debate.  I get Mnem and 3letterjon are saying about the pressure manifesting itself differently among men and in the larger culture’s reaction to infertile men than to infertile women.  But I don’t think people truly grasp how much shit women get for deliberately opting out of motherhood.  Just the other day my bf’s elderly mother was bilging on about how disappointed she was that her 3 sons hadn’t produced more grandchildren, followed by a broad hint that she’d welcome any offspring I’d be willing to create with him, and then lowered the boom with, “I just didn’t feel like a true woman until I had my children”.

Comment #87: DonnaDiva  on  03/03  at  02:46 PM

Of course, it’s technically true that a pregnant woman can turn down a marriage proposal, and perhaps men should worry about that.  But maybe they don’t, perhaps because it’s assumed that a woman who shoots you down will probably have an abortion.

My sister: got pregnant, boyfriend proposed, she turned him down, she had the baby. (Baby has her surname, not his.) They stayed for together for several years after that: she said when they split up that she had always known they weren’t “the one” for each other, which was why she hadn’t wanted marriage.

(He wasn’t best pleased. Nor were either set of grandparents. I was totally proud of her, though.)

Comment #88: Jesurgislac  on  03/03  at  02:49 PM

purpleshoes—I’m not talking about being proud about having kids, I’m talking about women point-blank saying that OTHER WOMEN WHO DON’T HAVE CHILDREN AREN’T WOMEN AT ALL.

Your concern is noted, though.

Comment #89: Mighty Ponygirl  on  03/03  at  02:49 PM

I think Amanda is absolutely right that people should talk about whether or not their preferred response was abortion or remaining pregnant in case of an accidental pregnancy, but I wouldn’t saddle the woman with “breaking her promise” if she changed her mind.  In either direction.  It would be possible to get pregnant and think you know, faced with it, I don’t really want an abortion.  Or vice versa, like Dr. Confused did, realize that you really aren’t ready to be pregnant.  I don’t think that reflects a lack of foresight—I think it reflects the fact that some things are difficult to foresee.

Comment #90: Ismone  on  03/03  at  03:03 PM

Where are stats on men vs. women’s reaction to more-or-less planned pregnancy?  Are women especially positive about it?  There’s a lot of ambivalence there, too.  Even when you want kids you’re staring down the barrel of nine months or physical alteration and eighteen years of being on call 24/7.

Comment #91: lonespark  on  03/03  at  03:13 PM

I advise anyone who doubts the smugness of some mothers to check out STFUparents.tumblr.com

Comment #92: leedevious  on  03/03  at  03:24 PM

Pitbullgirl—-of course. But are you intimating that men might lie?! Unclean, unclean! Men never lie!

Comment #93: ginmar  on  03/03  at  03:31 PM

Ismone—I’m willing to lay money on the fact that more women who claim loudly that they Would Never Have An Abortion end up scheduling the appointment than women who claim loudly that they would have an abortion in a heartbeat getting cold feet. I think we tend to lie more in the direction of “holy shit, this is going to ruin my life!” than we do “hahaha sucker now I own your ass for paternity”

Comment #94: Mighty Ponygirl  on  03/03  at  03:42 PM

As far as “really being a woman” - well, there is a component of privilege that looks a lot like borrowed male privilege in never being visibly pregnant or giving birth

And here I thought I was being self-aware and responsible enough to realize I don’t want to be a mother and would not be particularly good at it.  So now I can add “borrowing male privilege” to my litany of crimes: “selfish”, “immature”, “not a real woman”, etc.

Comment #95: DonnaDiva  on  03/03  at  03:47 PM

Mighty Ponygirl, and of course that’s a ridiculous definition of “women” and an… interesting way to view infertile people and transgendered women. This is why I’m for a genderless definition of badassery in which one can, in fact, state that a childless woman who’s committed herself to something difficult that takes followthrough and maturity is the same grade of badass as someone who’s done the same for children.

I stand by my assertion that whether they want it or not, women who haven’t had children or haven’t had children yet are loaned certain privileges that map to male privilege, and once you’re on the other side of that and can never get those privileges back you might decide gender policing in an attempt to strip acceptance from the childless is a swell notion for retaining some dignity. It’s not a successful strategy, but it’s probably soothing for a while.

Comment #96: purpleshoes  on  03/03  at  03:47 PM

I am guessing that a lot of young women have more experience than guys in looking after babies/kids, and therefore possess a fuller appreciation of the ramifications of that double line.  I had several thousand hours of babysitting under my belt prior to parenthood.  I think my husband had three.

Koobickle

I had a few hours of babysitting forced upon me (but not of course forced upon my brother) by my father who up and decided that since I was 14 and “had nothing to do” that I would be perfect to watch his golfing buddy’s kids. Needless to say I was most certainly NOT thrilled at all. I knew then like I know now that I don’t want kids because of the many reasons listed - MY life being the one that’s most adversely affected at the top of the list. I don’t imagine that even in the most egalitarian relationships that there aren’t times when everyone just goes along to get along and assumes that the kid is the woman’s number one responsibility (while coming in at the man’s perhaps 5th most important) and she will be the one to do the lion’s share of the work.
I don’t want to have constant resentment over that kind of thing - that’s not how I want to live my life.

I’ve had a few people say over the years that “something will change” etc. but it hasn’t and it never will. I’ve also had people actively wish a child on me - to teach me… what? That I shouldn’t be making my own life decisions? That obviously I can’t control my reproductive system?

Comment #97: Danica Lefse Queen  on  03/03  at  03:48 PM

So now I can add “borrowing male privilege” to my litany of crimes: “selfish”, “immature”, “not a real woman”, etc.

It’s all about keeping your breasts and hips perfect with you nulliparous hussies, isn’t it? While real women are getting enough stretchmarks to reach from here to Schenectady, if laid end to end.

Comment #98: Hector B.  on  03/03  at  03:53 PM

leedevious, a website making fun of parents doesn’t really do much to illustrate your point that some mothers are smug.

Besides, some dog owners are really smug.  Some childfree adults are really smug.  Some joggers are really smug.  So the fuck what?

Comment #99: Anony Mouse  on  03/03  at  03:55 PM

DonnaDiva, oh for heaven’s sakes. And I’m committing a crime in borrowing male privilege by being tall and talking loudly - oh wait, those are just qualities I had already that shouldn’t be valued more or less than anyone else’s height or volume, but they are in our particular cultural milieu. You didn’t ask to be born into a world that extends certain privileges to men unconditionally and women only conditionally, and it’s not your fault or mine that our personal choices influence the amount of privilege the frigging Patriarchy assigns us. But if I’m committing a hearty sin in trying to identify the conditions under which gender discrimination becomes felt, than what on earth are we on this blog for?

Comment #100: purpleshoes  on  03/03  at  03:57 PM

Though having read the comment right after my first, maternity-leave-position-paper-for-school-fueled rant (lower earnings TWENTY YEARS AFTER YOU TAKE CHILDBEARING LEAVE, wtf) Donna, it is possible that I am confusing the reproductive privilege I currently enjoy (being at an age where I “haven’t had children yet” in the public view) with the situation of someone who is widely perceived to be childless instead of only childless-thus-far. If so, it’s a blind spot that I will work on.

Comment #101: purpleshoes  on  03/03  at  04:07 PM

This is why I’m for a genderless definition of badassery in which one can, in fact, state that a childless woman who’s committed herself to something difficult that takes followthrough and maturity is the same grade of badass as someone who’s done the same for children.

And if this discussion were any way shape or form about that, then you might have a point. But we are talking about women trash-talking childless women as “not real women” and that notion being supported by our culture at large. You waving your arms that we need to totally support the specialness of mothers and celebrate their awesome womanhood is a derail at best and a complete concern trolling at worst.

I’m not interested in “badassery.” I’m interested in respect. I don’t care if you nearly died giving birth or if you had quintuplets without any anesthesia or if you went into twilight sleep and emerged a short time later with a stoned baby. None of those things means you are any less OR MORE worthy of respect from me than if I set aside having children so I could go cure cancer, or just do ok at my job, or so that I could sleep through the night and still read books and play videogames. Predicating a person’s worth on how “badass” they are is juvenile and just as obnoxious as predicating it on a person’s gender or their ability to produce offspring.

Comment #102: Mighty Ponygirl  on  03/03  at  04:10 PM

Geeze . . . I think there are two related, yet differing discussions going on here.

Mnemosyne said . . .

Again, you’re not getting my point.  How many of your friends called you a “dyke” in public because you weren’t acting the way they wanted you to?  How often did your friends tell you that doing things your partner liked made you less of a woman?  How often did they demand that you prove your womanhood to them by talking about, say, fashion the way men demand that other men prove their manhood by talking about sports?

This quote addresses the overall idea of acting feminine per a culture definition of such. Are there women who will consider/call another woman who doesn’t behave in the culturally expected feminine ways (so, let’s offer as examples: not shaving certain body parts, not giving a damn about fashion/clothing, involving yourself in activities generally considered more male-oriented sports/activities/etc) a “dyke”? Hell yes.  When you don’t live up to certain culture definitions of being a woman, there are definitely there are women out there who will question your sexuality.  Same with males in our culture: when men don’t live up to certain culture definitions of being a man, there are men out there who will question their sexuality.

This quote:

purpleshoes—I’m not talking about being proud about having kids, I’m talking about women point-blank saying that OTHER WOMEN WHO DON’T HAVE CHILDREN AREN’T WOMEN AT ALL.

Addresses a particular subset of the issue, which yet is slightly different. Are there women out there who would exclude childless/childfree woman from the definition of “women”? Yes. Are the men out there who would exclude childless/childfree men from the definition of “men”? Yes.  The possible difference I see there is that men may push this questioning once again into the realm of questioning sexuality, while women seem to push it into the realm of questioning maturity.  The women I have come across consider other women who have not had children more as “women who have not become full adults” than “dykes”.

Comment #103: hp  on  03/03  at  04:15 PM

Mighty Ponygirl,

I don’t see your point.  Who cares whether there is more of one type than the other.  You’re probably right.  Although I was surprised that after getting a D&C;for a miscarriage, and after being pregnant, I really don’t ever want an abortion.  I never figured I wanted one, and I am pro choice, but for me at least, being actually pregnant changed the equation.  If you want to call me a special snowflake, fine, but it is really neither here nor there.

The point is that people aren’t necessarily “breaking promises” in some sort of morally reprehensible way if they change their mind in either direction—it’s that reality isn’t always that hard to come to grips with it until you actually have to.

Comment #104: Ismone  on  03/03  at  04:16 PM

Yes, which was my point.

Comment #105: Mighty Ponygirl  on  03/03  at  04:23 PM

One thing I find absolutely unsurprising about the survey is that the 25-29 age group had more ‘pleased’s than the younger groups.  And I don’t think that it is necessarily because an unplanned pregnancy means marriage and children without having to make a decision.  In fact, an unplanned pregnancy means have to make a decision about whether or not to have a baby (and what kind of relationship you want to have with your partner), only you have to do so with a ticking clock and heightened emotions.

I’m in that age group now and even though my husband and I do our darndest to avoid pregnancy, if I did get pregnant, I think we’d both be happy.  For us, it’s that we do want to have kids, it’s just that having kids right now would be very difficult financially and logsitically.  An ‘oops’ pregnancy now would be way more difficult than an ideal pregnancy three years from now, but it would still be a joy. 

Additionally, I think being a parent in the 25-29 age group is a lot less isolating than being a 25-or-under parent.  Obviously, this is very variable by region and culture, but when I was in my early twenties, none of my friends had or even talked about having children.  Having a baby in my early twenties would have put me way outside the norms of my social group.  At 27, though, I know a couple of friends who have babies and hear way more friends talk about wanting babies.  I know a baby would change my life, but I don’t think I would feel as alienated from my peers as I would have ten, five or even two years ago.

This doesn’t get to the main point about the gender disparity in every age group, but I did want to point out some more straightforward reasons than ‘people want to have decisions made for them’ for why the 25-29s have the highest number of pleaseds.

Comment #106: Anony Mouse  on  03/03  at  04:33 PM

Mighty Ponygirl, I just finished three weeks of reading position papers on how women who have to interrupt their careers to give birth are still earning less than women who don’t twenty years down the road. I am trying to be jolly about something that is causing me daily stress, given that I have plans to breed in the next decade and don’t know anyone in real life who has done that and stayed out of the Mommy Ghetto without being rich enough to hire full-time staff, and trust me, everyone I know in the Mommy Ghetto is plenty bitter. To me, the life of someone who can happily decide to be childfree looks awfully easy from here - I don’t care if people think I’ve Done my Duty by the species and give me backpats for breeding, it still looks like the end of adult life from here. Because I am not in the position of being snarked on for not breeding, I have no idea what it’s like. This is a failure of imagination.

I think my problem here is that I’m trying to be droll about something I’m genuinely upset about and it’s making me sound much more trollish than usual.

I think the point that gender policing is a way for people who feel like they’ve lost their status as adults to try to win over someone. I don’t think examining the motivations of people who reinforce their own oppression through gender policing is concern trolling on a thread about how people feel about breeding.

And I acknowledge that in my mind I assumed that the mothers you were referring to were saying things like “it was the best thing I ever did” - that is, referring to a watershed moment - instead of snarking on people who did not have the same watershed moment, because I tend to impute only good motives to people I sympathize with and after three weeks of documenting in detail how thoroughly they’re fucked over, I fall right into sympathizing with people who’ve given birth. So that is an accuracy error.

Comment #107: purpleshoes  on  03/03  at  04:34 PM

It amazes me how many people sleepwalk through life, but I guess that’s easier than communication and active decision making.

Comment #108: keshmeshi  on  03/03  at  04:39 PM

I think the point that gender policing is a way for people who feel like they’ve lost their status as adults to try to win over someone * is a decent one. I don’t think examining the motivations of people who reinforce their own oppression through gender policing is concern trolling on a thread about how people feel about breeding.

(But seriously: I’m taking this class on maternal and child health in the US, and one thing women say over and over in interviews is that being pregnant and nursing kind of infantilizes you - like, everything you do is now supposed to be appropriate for a baby no matter what. One of the reasons women give for wanting to quit breastfeeding is that they want to go to a goddamn bar and have a goddamn scotch like an adult, and everyone scolds them like they’re twelve. Redefining this kind of loss of autonomy as a rite of passage to adulthood is a slick psychological trick indeed.)

Comment #109: purpleshoes  on  03/03  at  04:40 PM

Thanks, purpleshoes, this is what I and others are trying to make clear.  Once a woman openly identifies as willingly opting out of motherhood it puts her in a whole different classification in many people’s minds:  the “not a real woman” box.  It’s true that you get financial and career advantages but I wouldn’t say you become a de facto male where work is concerned.  You still experience sexism and childless (for whatever reason) women still earn less than men, though more than women with children. 

That said, I’m something of an anomaly in another way.  Not only am I childless-by-choice, but I’ve committed the unpardonable sin of not being motivated toward a high powered career either.  I’m so tired of the narrative that a woman who chooses not to have a family life must be a driven workaholic overachieving careerist.  It’s part of the overarching narrative that women have to be virtuous and productive and good.  This culture does not permit slacking by women, ever.  I’m unemployed right now and need to get a job soon for financial reasons (sorry, Senator Kyl, but my “generous” UI benefits are not disincentivizing me from seeking work).  But I’m dreading the thought of re-joining the rat race.  I hate everything about jobs - having to wake up early, commuting, meetings, office politics, etc.  And I’ve worked both blue and white collar jobs.  I hate them all.

Comment #110: DonnaDiva  on  03/03  at  04:44 PM

Donna, thank you, I will work on not equating the two any more. ... I was raised by Zero Population Growth people, so I think I also assume that everyone else views not breeding as inherently virtuous. To me, it’s kind of a first-do-no-harm approach to life in the world, so I think I really don’t understand the degree to which other people see not reproducing as bad, while I’m fully attuned to treating breeding as bad. And I have officially run my mouth enough in this thread and will stop now.

Comment #111: purpleshoes  on  03/03  at  04:56 PM

It’s both/and. This is patriarchy-blaming 101. Society encourages women to have children. Women who decline to comply are punished. Women who comply are punished. There’s social stigma either way - and women dishing it and slinging it right up there with the men, sometimes more so - and women with kids very often take substantial financial hits in addition to the social stigma. Either way, you can’t win, so you might as well do what you want to do and try to make the best of it.

Comment #112: chingona  on  03/03  at  05:01 PM

My question is: why would a an adult man continue to call someone who questioned his maleness regularly a friend?

In some circles, because it would significantly shrink the pool of potential friends.  Also, most men buy into the toxic masculinity crap, if only on an unconscious level.  It can be really, really hard not to.  I fancy myself to be a fairly enlightened guy (pats self on back) but I still fall into the trap of feeling like less than a man because I’m not the primary breadwinner in my family.  It’s pernicious, and it gets reinforced in so many ways.

Comment #113: Captain Bathrobe  on  03/03  at  06:07 PM

I never realized that a man might welcome an accidental pregnancy because it’s easier than just asking. It also works if they break-up later. He can just claim that he never really wanted her and only married because of the baby. She can say the same thing.

Many people actually don’t like freedom. It’s nice when you don’t have a choice, because you don’t have to worry if you’re making the best one. And you can blame other people or bad luck if things go bad.

Comment #114: Derek L  on  03/03  at  08:29 PM

@Anony Mouse

I’ve never heard a dog owner say that you haven’t fulfilled your purpose as a woman until you’ve owned a dog.  O_O

Comment #115: leedevious  on  03/04  at  06:40 PM

I definitely feel this way. Given the gaping absence of any current or ongoing professional or academic activity in my life, if someone I was having sex with turned up pregnant and wanted to keep the baby, my main response would be “Sweet! I’ve actually accomplished something!”

Comment #116: Indy  on  03/04  at  10:22 PM

Something that might contribute to the high percentage of men responding as “pleased” is that there is still less of a stigma attached to “getting” a woman pregnant accidentally than for having an unplanned pregnancy. Conversely (also/or blog!) I think it has become easier for men to admit that they WANT to have children, in a squishy nurturing way rather than in a “manly” sowing my seed way.

  It’s also easy to put “pleased” down on a piece of paper or even say it if it is something that one hasn’t had to put much thought into. I am guessing the percentages would drop if people did as Amanda suggested and have honest preemptive conversations with friends and partners about what they would do if they were in that situation.

  Just a note on the “you’re not a real woman” topic. I was a woman who chose not to have children until I developed a medical condition that required a radical hysterectomy. After that I became a woman who can’t have (biological) children and boy howdy did the response I got from people change. Among most people who knew about the procedure (family, friends and co-workers) guilt trips and derision changed to gooey sympathy, offers to hook me up with adoption agencies and “inspirational” stories about infertility. The most irritating reaction came from my father who decided that 12 hours post surgery was a great time to loudly mourn for all the grandchildren he would never have and praise my female cousins for being mommy-machines.

  The switcheroo in reactions provoked me into continuing to identify as a woman who chooses not to have children and maintain my original positions because I still believe in them. And, yes I have been told I am not a real woman and in a few cases not even a real person.

Comment #117: HooksInMyHead  on  03/05  at  03:29 AM
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