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U2 entertains, annoys the dweebs

Roy Edroso is a national treasure, and I salute him for his tireless (seeming) efforts at monitoring right wing media and reporting on its more asinine and baffling permutations.  Today, he linked a piece by John J. Miller that was, for me at least, a welcome explosion of unintentional comedy gold.  For instance, Miller links a piece he wrote 8 years ago called “Shut Up and Sing”, and he neglects to mention that he wrote a piece 3 years ago about the 50 best conservative rock songs (as you can imagine, most were a stretch, though he was able to lean heavily on Rush and George Harrison bitching about his taxes).  Which is it, John?  Should musicians pretend to be apolitical or should they espouse political views?  Well, as Roy notes, the answer is: Talk politics, but only if you say things that John J. Miller wants to hear. 

(An aside: I am no hypocrite here.  I object to the politics of “Stand By Your Man”, for instance, but think it’s a good song, and great for threatening to put in for people at karaoke if they won’t sing something of their own choosing.) 

Ever since the 50 best conservative rock songs list came out, I’ve had occasional moments when Miller pops back on my radar, and it’s always funny.  He appears to be NRO’s resident music geek, and it’s awesome, because they really have to define music geekdom downward in the land of wingnuts.  We’re not talking about a group that enjoys being challenged by art or music on any level.  Miller is the hep cat of the group because he has not only heard of the Sex Pistols, but apparently has actually heard their music. No doubt that sort of risk-taking behavior makes him the dangerous rebel of the NRO set, but this most recent post…...well, I’m surprised they don’t faint from being around someone with such dangerous, cutting edge tastes.

This was my fourth U2 show.

While I can’t say that Miller was surprised to discover that Bono has opinions on political matters that he feels free to express, he continued to bang the drum about how it’s inappropriate for musicians to hold forth on politics when they aren’t saying things Miller wants to hear.  Though it’s hard to say exactly what Miller’s problem is—-he whines that U2 was playing it safe (which is so unlike the biggest rock band in the world) and then gets angry that they don’t engage in routine displays of praise for soldiers who defend democracy.  He also appears to believe that U2’s members are American.

The strangest moment came during “Sunday Bloody Sunday” — dedicated to the Iranian democracy protestors. The stage was awash in green lights, a nice tribute to the Green Revolutionaries. Bono invited a man on stage. He was a Sikh, judging from the turban. He carried an American flag, which he waved as he lip-synched the words of the song. During the final verse, Bono put the microphone in his face and they sang, duet-style: “The real battle yet begun/To claim the victory Jesus won.” As they say, only in America.


Not really.  I’d say that only Bono has quite that combination of absurdly huge ego and extremely earnest self-righteousness that disallows him to see how stupid he looks when he does shit like that.  That said, from what I can tell, the hook for the conservative argument against celebrities expressing political opinions is that celebrities work their way up the ladder by doing apolitical entertaining things, and then when they’re famous, it goes to their head and they speak out of turn.  And we are to resent them, and not notice that the giant flaw in this argument is that conservatives only object to this process if the celebrity is a liberal.  If they’re conservative, they get awarded the California governorship and then the presidency. 

But this argument, which was already baseless if examined for even a millisecond, holds even less water when it comes to U2.  Why?  Because they had the same humorless strident political stances from the get-go.  “Sunday Bloody Sunday” is a song about the Northern Ireland slow burn civil war, and it came out in 1983, long before U2 was some blockbuster band.  That album also features humorless, political songs about nuclear proliferation, the Polish solidarity movement, and apparently prostitution.  It’s called War, for god’s sake.  If you object to U2 taking a turn towards the earnestly political, then the time to bitch about that was not 8 years ago, but 26 years ago.

Unfortunately, U2’s popularity means that they are a “safe” band for nitwits and assholes worldwide, and the results are high comedy for those of us who like neither U2 nor the nitwits/assholes crowd.  It’s hard to pick my favorite bit out of this post, but I think this one made me laugh the hardest:

At one point, he saluted Nancy Pelosi — and the response from the crowd was decidedly mixed.

I don’t know what part of this I find the funniest: That Bono thinks there’s much to gain from name-dropping the Speaker of the House, or that U2 has got an audience that’s stuffed so full of Republicans at this point that such a reference gets a mixed reaction.  If I were them, I’d start asking long, hard questions of myself that I’d started to attract the tight-asses that no doubt wore khaki pants to a rock concert.  Maybe Bono & Co. see their presence in their audience’s lives as a public service.  From what I understand, the average price of a ticket to that show was over $200 or something like that, so this is a Big Event to most of the folks going, probably the first concert they’ve gone to in god only knows how long.  I’m sure that for the occasion, there was much loosening up: Budweiser was drunk, there may have been some singing along, maybe they went home and let the little lady be on top for once that night.  That U2 can provide that over-the-top excitement for their fan base is something for them to be proud of, I suppose. And yet, maybe there’s some kind of passive aggressive rebellion against the dweebs that will bother to pay that much to see them in the Nancy Pelosi reference.  Maybe Bono was taking a little swipe, enjoying their discomfort a little.

Ah, who am I kidding?  It’s Bono.  I don’t think he has it in him to be sly.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 11:48 AM • (158) Comments

I’d say that only Bono has quite that combination of absurdly huge ego and extremely earnest self-righteousness that disallows him to see how stupid he looks when he does shit like that.

This.

He is a rockstar asshole.  He also chooses to use his power and money to do good things and champion the less well off.  As I’ve said before, I was at the Oprah show where he came on not to discuss music, but to argue for helping Africans with AIDS.  He knows his stuff and is not stupid.

Unlike any “reviewer” who thinks U2 is a conservative band.  Or that Springsteen’s “Born in the USA” was a great theme for Ronnie Reagan to use.

Back when they released “War” they were a small New Brit Invasion band.  I remember my guitar teacher giving me a tape and telling me they were going to be the next big thing.  The Police actually blew up first with “Synchronicity”, but U2 was next, and they’ve had the staying power.

Though I wish they’d do what they did after “Joshua Tree” for the next album and toss any song that sounds like a “U2 song”. 

Ah, who am I kidding?  It’s Bono.  I don’t think he has it in him to be sly.

This again.  He’s a rockstar, after all.

Comment #1: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  10/01  at  12:08 PM

What, exactly, is wrong with wearing slacks to a concert?  Um, not that I’m feeling defensive or anything.  No, not at all…

Comment #2: libdevil  on  10/01  at  12:25 PM

Can’t… move… with… snobbish… bullshit…  Get… help…

Naff off, Marcotte.  There’s a place for “humorless strident political stances” in music, and if that’s the worst you can ding their music for, you’re not trying - you’re allowing your personal animus for the band’s strutting to bleed through into assessing their music.  Shall we put on our “wingnut-for-a-day” hats and go through the blog looking for posts we can characterise as “humourless strident political stances” to discredit you?(*)

And, for that matter, given Bono’s position, I can think of a lot worse personality traits than painful sincerity.

I’m going to engage in an ad hominem here - I think your real problem with U2 is that they’re a band that managed to sink their claws into the generation before you, and you despise them as any intelligent hipster despises the music of the generation-just-before-them.

I’m older than you, but <strike>you don’t see me making fun of your music</strike>  <strike>I try not to make fun of your music</strike>  <strike>I can tolerate your music</strike> but I’m older than you!  Okay, so that last sentence seems to have lost its point somewhere.

So there (**)

(*) I’d rather not - having to think like a wingnut makes me feel grubby.

(**) The above rant has absolutely no connection whatsoever to the contents of my iPod.  That’s my story, I’m sticking to it, and you’ll need a goddamned court order to get a track listing.

Comment #3: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  10/01  at  12:25 PM

Many bands follow the arc of initial political “radicalism” followed by moderation as they try to branch out creatively and/or commercially.  If their inspiration was all politics (The Clash, maybe), they might run out of steam and break up after a few albums (a few really fucking good albums, in The Clash’s case).

U2 moderated their political views for commercial success, and it worked out well for them (or, at least, their wallets).  They even managed to survive an acute case of Christianity.

But Mr N. probably ignores most bands’ political phases altogether, except for a few “conservative anthems” like the SP’s “Bodies”.  That’s why he can be incensed by Bono’s current lame posing, and not be outraged by U2’s early, more raw political stuff.

Comment #4: Mike Nilsen  on  10/01  at  12:33 PM

I’m going to engage in an ad hominem here - I think your real problem with U2 is that they’re a band that managed to sink their claws into the generation before you, and you despise them as any intelligent hipster despises the music of the generation-just-before-them.

This post kind of left me blinking . . . but partly because everyone I know who has been desperately seeking tickets for this U2 tour has been young, and extremely left-liberal.  I find that people my age (let’s say 25-35) are a bit tired of the whole U2 thing, even if we were big fans in the past. But U2 has really managed to ignite a whole new following in the 18-25 age range in the past few years. They love the new stuff, and are recasting political anthems like those on War into being applicable to their generation.

Comment #5: hp  on  10/01  at  12:33 PM

Hey, I admit that there is actually conservative rock music. It doesn’t particularly bother me, because while I enjoy rock, I don’t really expect to take political pointers from it. As far as U2 goes, I liked ‘War’, some of their later ones too… have mostly ignored them for the past decade or so.

Comment #6: atheist  on  10/01  at  12:47 PM

“This was my fourth U2 show.”

Complaining about Bono’s politics after going to see U2 4 times?:

“The food here is terrible!”

“Yeah, and the portions are so small!”...

Comment #7: MikeEss  on  10/01  at  12:52 PM

As one of the poor saps who shelled out $200 per ticket to see U2 in Chicago a few weeks ago, I have to say I enjoy their over-the-top rock stardom.  I believe they really are the last arena rock band and are worth seeing for that alone.  For me, attending a U2 concert now is more about nostalgia than anything else, though I really liked their last album.

FWIW, they spent a good deal of time on politics in Chicago, including a big candlelight vigil for Aung San Suu Kyi.  Plus Bono sported a mirror-plated jacket with laser pointers for “Ultraviolet”.  How cool is that?

Comment #8: Samurai Sam  on  10/01  at  12:53 PM

Hp, U2 may have a following with some 18-25 yr. olds somewhere, but it most certainly does not with urban hipsters of that age.

Comment #9: samanthab.  on  10/01  at  12:55 PM

Miller is the hep cat of the group because he has not only heard of the Sex Pistols, but apparently has actually heard their music.

And failed abysmally to understand it even slightly.

My complaint about U2 is that their music sucks my fucking ass. It always has, and it always will. They are the musical equivalent of your blowhard uncle at Thanksgiving with the really loud and grating voice who tells painfully boring stories about how uniquely perceptive he is about everyfuckingthing.

Comment #10: PhysioProf  on  10/01  at  12:55 PM

U2 is one of those bands that I feel like I should really hate because of the whole Bono Saves the World shtick—there was a quote of his from back in the day where he said that he wrote songs by literally looking at whatever headlines were in the paper.  Also, there were the other, similar bands that didn’t make it as big, and look at the legions of bland followers (looking at you Coldplay), etc. etc.

But I just can’t deny that a good portion of their songs are simply frickin’ great pop.  Joshua Tree still gives me shivers when I listen to it.  And their Achtung/Zooropa period really stand the test of time as pretty decent albums, and scattered here and there from the earlier/later years are some gems as well.

Comment #11: Dr. Locrian  on  10/01  at  01:01 PM

I don’t hate U2 and fully admit that they have had many good songs and many good albums, even. I do get a bit tired of seeing them in television commercials and so on. The Blackberry commercial is particularly annoying, I hate how the commercial is so earnest and epic that at first, you think it’s for one of the many philanthropic causes that Bono supports. It’s this incredible earnestness and seriousness that Bono brings to everything, including commercial projects, that becomes tiresome. I would really like to see him poke fun at himself, or wear a funny hat, or perform a song that’s a bit silly. 

And what’s with the dude who calls himself The Edge? How self-important do you have to be to go around with a nickname like that? Is there a cute back story that I don’t know about? The “edge” part is bad enough, but “the” in front of it? It’s not, “Here’s Edge,” it’s “Here’s The Edge.”

Comment #12: Jenny Dreadful  on  10/01  at  01:03 PM

What’s wrong with humorless political songs? I mean, sure humor is great and all, but sometimes a sledgehammer to the gut works just as well if not better. There’s a reason “Another Brick in the Wall” and “War Pigs” get covered a bunch. And look at the early work of Kittie for perhaps the best takedowns of the patriarchy in music ever. I’m definitely down with the punk and the snark, but that doesn’t really make earnestness somehow evil or gauche and the songs can still rock and tap into that primal rage against injustice. See also: “they paved over paradise and put up a parking lot”.

Comment #13: Cerberus  on  10/01  at  01:04 PM

Hahaha, he gets his song lyrics by reading newspaper headlines! What about “In the Name of Love”? Did he have a really old newspaper lying around to help him with that one? Maybe he spends a lot of time in the periodicals section of the library.

Comment #14: Jenny Dreadful  on  10/01  at  01:05 PM

#10 - PhysioProf

They are the musical equivalent of your blowhard uncle at Thanksgiving with the really loud and grating voice who tells painfully boring stories about how uniquely perceptive he is about everyfuckingthing.

But he does seem to have made an impression on you. grin

Comment #15: I Heart Puppies  on  10/01  at  01:05 PM

At one point, he saluted Nancy Pelosi — and the response from the crowd was decidedly mixed.

If by “mixed” you mean half the crowd asking, “Who the fuck is Nancy Pelosi?”

I know this is hard for folks like Bono and Miller to understand, but not everyone knows who Nancy Pelosi means, much less are so steeped in political dog whistles that they’ll all reflexively knee jerk at the idea of “San Fransisco Values”.

I’m sure both Miller and Bono will happily conclude that all the “undecides” (read: people who don’t give a shit about politics) are on their side.  And then we can get another round of discussion about what defines “Real America” with people who wouldn’t know small town Main Street from Wall Street from a back alley in Queens.

Comment #16: Zifnab  on  10/01  at  01:08 PM

Jenny:  I probably misused literally.  Oops.  smile

I think he was saying that he would open the paper and just write a song about whatever injustice people were talking about in world at that moment.

Comment #17: Dr. Locrian  on  10/01  at  01:09 PM

During the final verse, Bono put the microphone in his face and they sang, duet-style: “The real battle yet begun/To claim the victory Jesus won.” As they say, only in America.

I thought Miller was saluting the idea that the Irish Catholic and the Sikh could come together to praise Jesus—not really getting that it’s the lefty social-justice Jesus and always has been.

That said, bite me, Amanda.  raspberry If U2 has to take a snide Music Snob beatdown principally for their fans, consider your ongoing reverence for horrendous olde-tyme-country craparama.  Far, far worse than U2 ever has been, and drawing a fan base that are certainly MUCH more inclined to paunchy khaki-clad contentment.  (Defensive?  Yes, I suppose so.  I saw U2 in 1990 in Worcester, Mass.  And I don’t have the same grudge against earnestness.)

Comment #18: FlipYrWhig  on  10/01  at  01:11 PM

It would be fun watch Miller’s reactions to some bands with decidedly more strident politics. I’d pay good money to watch him loose his shit over Skinny Puppy.

Comment #19: Keith  on  10/01  at  01:13 PM

Oh, I wasn’t making fun of you, Dr Locrian, it was just a funny image. And I can just see him doing it, too. It would be great if he occasionally chose mundane headlines. “Colorado Company Invests In Valley Condominium Projects” would make a catchy tune, I think.

Comment #20: Jenny Dreadful  on  10/01  at  01:13 PM

(I’ve semi-defended Coldplay in these environs before too.  Anathema to hipsters.  Fuck off, I like maudlin bombast.)

Comment #21: FlipYrWhig  on  10/01  at  01:14 PM

Fuck off, I like maudlin bombast.

Hee, har.  I was going to say “fustian” but “maudlin bombast” works well too.  Can’t say I’m a fan of U2 but I will go to my grave defending the fust, man.  It has its place.

Comment #22: Ranylt  on  10/01  at  01:22 PM

Edge and Bono got their nicknames from the gang of punk-era misfits they hung around with in their early days, a kind of “invented community” called Lypton Village aka ‘the village’; Edge was dubbed such because of his leanness, Bono got his name from a hearing-aid shop sign (Bono Vox). Another band to emerge from the Village was The Virgin Prunes, whose singer Gavin Friday went on to have a decent solo career in the alt-cabaret genre.

http://gavinfriday.com/2008/05/04/on-lypton-village/

Personally I liked U2 up to and including The Unforgettable Fire, after which point they turned into the much less interesting, Time-cover-stars “U2(tm)”. The reinvention phase of Achtung Baby / Zooropa was interesting but I wish they had kept reinventing themselves: the recent stuff is rather U2-by-numbers.

In any case, some bands get so big they become blank canvases for other people to project upon…

Comment #23: AJ Kandy  on  10/01  at  01:22 PM

Ranylt:I was going to say “fustian”

Sure, I like a good fustian.  Rodomontade has its place too.

Comment #24: FlipYrWhig  on  10/01  at  01:26 PM

Flip: fanfaronade, even.

Comment #25: Ranylt  on  10/01  at  01:28 PM

some bands get so big they become blank canvases for other people to project upon…

And solo artists.  Hipsters and music snobs love Johnny Cash.  Who was also a U2 collaborator.

Comment #26: FlipYrWhig  on  10/01  at  01:31 PM

Ooh, never saw “fanfaronade” before.  I’ll save that up for later use…

Comment #27: FlipYrWhig  on  10/01  at  01:33 PM

There seem to be a lot of people here who don’t know the band’s history.  They’re a Christian band.  Always have been.  Most of the songs that people think are love songs are actually about god or religion or faith.  They haven’t taken themselves seriously since The Joshua Tree and have used and exploited their fame for their own political purposes all along.  Back in the 1980’s, they had booths from various political organizations set up at their concerts. 

Bono’s whole image is based on what people expect from rock stars and he’s taking a piss.  If conservative douchebags want to pay $200 to see the band, they’re cool with that and will use the opportunity to try to reach them and will use the money for their own causes.  Bono has worked with Jesse Helms and George W Bush to further aid to Africa.  He’s after results, not ideology.

I think they’ve been as true to their own values as they can under the ridiculous circumstances of being a rock star.  It woul be damned hard not to be an asshole at their level of fame.  They’ve managed to use it pretty well.

/lecture

Comment #28: BadKitty  on  10/01  at  01:35 PM

It woul be damned hard not to be an asshole at their level of fame.  They’ve managed to use it pretty well.

This is what pisses off conservatives.  Bono is now a rich man, so he should start voting Republican (supposing he ever became American).  The fact that he is rich and still has “juvenile” liberal values that he was supposed to outgrow is frustrating.

They will accuse him of hypocrisy b/c he doesn’t give away ALL of his money.  You can’t sincerely care about the poor if YOU aren’t poor yourself.  To be rich, to enjoy being rich, and still give a shit about the other people on the planet?  Simply does. not. compute.

I emphasized that Bono’s an asshole above b/c sometimes he is.  We all are, but he really does stupid rockstar asshole shit sometimes.  That does not mean the good things he does for Africa or any of his other values are just an act or insincere facades.

He’s a human being, and we’re complicated creatures.

Comment #29: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  10/01  at  01:46 PM

And hey, you only need to look at Bret Michaels to see just how low Bono *could* have sunk.  Compared to that, I’d say Bono’s earnestness is a minor misdemeanor against cool.

Comment #30: Dr. Locrian  on  10/01  at  01:48 PM

I would really like to see him poke fun at himself, or wear a funny hat, or perform a song that’s a bit silly.

Never seen The Sweetest Thing?

A lot of people like to get on the whole U2 is a bunch of egomaniacs.  Personally I’ve never had a chance to meet and talk with them, so I wouldn’t know.  I, personally, have given up on arguing about music.  I like what I like.  Other people like other stuff.  If I hear a lot about a band I’ll check them out and base my decission on that.

Comment #31: cynickal  on  10/01  at  01:51 PM

Regarding the mixed-reaction-to-Pelosi remark: I was at the FedEx Field concert, & the place was such an awful echo chamber (whether because of the acoustics on the premises or the apparatus put together for the event, I don’t know) that, while you could hear the songs OK, I found it near-impossible to make out anything else Bono said.  I caught the mention of Pelosi, but could not for the world hear the context it was in.  I imagine the “mixed reaction” was as much “huh? what was that?” as it was ... what Zifnab said.

& that’s as close as I’ll get to discussing U2’s music in here, tyvm ...

Comment #32: GSDavis  on  10/01  at  01:54 PM

Jenny Dreadful, the sad thing is that The Edge doesn’t even have the most pretentious name in the band!  We call the lead singer just Bono now, but he was originally Bono Vox, which was taken from the Latin “bonavox”, which means “good voice”.  No, I’m not kidding. 

Piator, nice try, but no dice.  I like REM and New Order, so the suggestion that I’m just a childish brat categorically rejecting my elders’ music is demonstrably false.  Plus, U2 isn’t really my elders’ music.  I’m not so young as you’re assuming.  I was in high school when Acthung Baby came out, and I do believe I was in college when Zooropa did.  I actually liked U2 in my young and foolish days, but since then I’ve gotten over myself and simply cannot stand their bombast any longer.

Comment #33: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/01  at  01:57 PM

That said, I have zero problem with Bono’s philanthropic efforts.  Indeed, my opinion might be the opposite of Miller’s.  I want Bono to stop singing and keep talking.

Comment #34: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/01  at  01:58 PM

Hipsters and music snobs love Johnny Cash.  Who was also a U2 collaborator.

They also love Brian Eno, who has produced a few U2 albums, including the only one that I like at all, which is Zooropa.  (Same one Cash was on.)  “Lemon” is a great song; I won’t lie. 

I remain amused at how the word “hipster” has become an all-purpose insult.  It’s the 21st century version of calling someone the liberal elite, with intimations that good taste and good character are mutually exclusive properties. Conservatives are going to figure this out soon and steal it, and then what will we do?

Comment #35: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/01  at  02:07 PM

Bombast?  I’m not as big a fan as I once was in 80’s and 90’s and I don’t have the new album yet but 2004’s “Vertigo” fucking rocks. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhWZ7bpfQag

Comment #36: BadKitty  on  10/01  at  02:09 PM

I find Bono’s voice unpleasant to hear. That thin wheedly warble/whine prevents me from buying any U2 record or concert tix. I don’t have a deeper opinion of the band’s politics; they strike me as no more or less earnest than others of their ilk.

The blue glasses, though? It’s time you’re done with those, innit, Mr. Hewson?

Comment #37: benvolio  on  10/01  at  02:14 PM

Hipsters and music snobs love Johnny Cash.  Who was also a U2 collaborator.

He was also Johnny Fucking Cash. some music is just so good, it becomes transcendental of time and politics.

Comment #38: Keith  on  10/01  at  02:16 PM

Maybe Bono was taking a little swipe, enjoying their discomfort a little.

I think a little bit of this.  During the “We Are One” Inaugural Concert at the Lincoln Memorial, at the end of the song Pride, Bono began to sing about Obama’s election as an American dream, and then he said that it was an Irish dream, then he called it an African dream, then he called it an Israeli dream.  And then, in a very hesitating manner, he said, “And also… and also… a PALESTINIAN DREAM!”

Definitely got some looks of slight discomfort from Obama who was sitting with his family and the Biden family off to the side of the stage.  Not necessarily that Obama was in disagreement with Bono, but that Obama probably realized that his new job was gonna force him to have to deal with an issue that causes a lot of discomfort among Americans - Israeli-Palestinian relations.

Among some Irish human rights advocates - who dealt with their own occupation issues involving N. Ireland - there is no dispute.  The Israelis need to get the fuck out, yesterday.

But in the United States, the mere use of the word “Palestine” as a reference to a geographic place will get you nasty looks from a lot of people.  So Bono’s suggestion that Obama’s inauguration could be of great benefit to Palestinians - “A Palestinian Dream” - surely had to rankle a lot of neocon feathers that day.

Not the a ton of them were in the audience for an Obama Inauguration concert.

Comment #39: DTG in STL  on  10/01  at  02:18 PM

I’m not especially keen on the idea that one is going to argue about this and change any minds, Bad Kitty, but I’m afraid that I clicked that link and I’m really not seeing the rock in that.  And that’s fine.  I appreciate that U2 made the conscious decision to be the sort of band that can sell out enormous stadiums, and really rocking overly hard precludes that.  It’s how they’ve managed to stay big in an era where big doesn’t really exist any more.  It’s interesting how conscious the choice was.  Night and day from a band like Pink Floyd, who was much more ambivalent about being the biggest thing on the planet, which is what “The Wall” is all about.

Comment #40: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/01  at  02:18 PM

There’s a reason “Another Brick in the Wall” and “War Pigs” get covered a bunch.

Yeah, the reason is that—regardless of ideological content—they are good fucking songs. War Pigs, in particular, is one of the best rock-and-roll songs of all time. U2’s music is garbage. It’s not even decent pop music. It’s just swill.

Comment #41: PhysioProf  on  10/01  at  02:22 PM

Hahaha, he gets his song lyrics by reading newspaper headlines! What about “In the Name of Love”? Did he have a really old newspaper lying around to help him with that one? Maybe he spends a lot of time in the periodicals section of the library.

You know what’s frightening about that song (it’s actually called Pride)?

My wingnut cousin - who is a huge U2 fan - is convinced the song is REALLY about Jesus dying on the cros, not Martin Luther King, Jr.  And making him read the actual lyrics still won’t convince him that he’s wrong.

Comment #42: DTG in STL  on  10/01  at  02:27 PM

I’ll take Bono’s ego and political stances over Lars Ulrich’s.  Speaking of bands losing their souls…

“The Edge” is a much catchier monicker than “David Evans.”  Edgier, heh smile

I like U2’s willingness to use their music to explicitly advocate for social change.  (I like Rush better musically.)  There’s no modern (2000’s) band I can think of that has shown any potential to have the longevity U2 has achieved.  But I’m not trying very hard; I haven’t listened to much in the way of new music in quite some time, especially since getting satellite radio.  Maybe it’s part of getting older.  You get set in your ways.

Comment #43: liberalrob  on  10/01  at  02:31 PM

My apologies because what I am about to say will piss a lot of you off. I don’t mean it personally, or, I mean it as impersonally as is possible.

U2 is cool music in the sense that they’re always the best band in someone’s shitty music collection - a dubious honor they share with Pink Floyd. They’re edgy for people who think Rob Thomas is deep.

They don’t really suck, and if your taste in music borders on the boring, you could do a lot worse. Plus bono is a humnitarian. But, there are So Many Better Bands. And I’m thinking specifically of bands contemporaneous with U2. Why on earth would you go to Chicago and order deep pan pizza from Pizza Hut?

Comment #44: Ross Lincoln  on  10/01  at  02:38 PM

To my mind, there’s nothing funnier than going to a U2 concert and then getting miffed at the self-righteous posturing.  It’s like going to McDonald’s and getting pissed that the food is cheap and crappy.

Comment #45: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/01  at  02:43 PM

Or going to a B grade comedy and being mad that there’s fart jokes and a scene where a kid kicks a grown man in the balls.

Comment #46: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/01  at  02:43 PM

Yeah its the whole “Unclear of the Concept” vibe that Miller is giving off, that’s really the punchline. I’m sure it reveals something deep about John J. Miller, conservatives, propagandists, and/or ideologues, but I can’t think of it right now.

Comment #47: atheist  on  10/01  at  02:50 PM

Yeah, we’re probably never going to agree on music, Amanda, because I usually find the music you post here pretensious.  I won’t hold it against you, though. tongue wink

Comment #48: BadKitty  on  10/01  at  02:54 PM

I’d like to register my agreement with Amanda.  I’ve never understood the U2 thing.  Their music was good, but not any better than anyone else from that pre-grunge period (The Pixies, Depeche Mode, REM).  Then music got edgier and more aggressive, and U2 and REM continued having success making music that was tamer.  But suddenly they became regarded as superstars, and their shows became big events, and I never understood who were the people getting excited about a U2 show, or how U2 got popular enough to play the Super Bowl.

Comment #49: Wallace  on  10/01  at  03:06 PM

The strangest moment came during “Sunday Bloody Sunday” — dedicated to the Iranian democracy protestors. The stage was awash in green lights, a nice tribute to the Green Revolutionaries. Bono invited a man on stage. He was a Sikh, judging from the turban. He carried an American flag, which he waved as he lip-synched the words of the song. During the final verse, Bono put the microphone in his face and they sang, duet-style: “The real battle yet begun/To claim the victory Jesus won.” As they say, only in America.

This bit isn’t even clear. I mean that Miller isn’t clear about what bothers him. Is it the turban and the American flag together? That fact that someone said, “Jesus” at a rock concert? What?

Comment #50: atheist  on  10/01  at  03:08 PM

Can I just say that one of the main problems is that U2 are safe? They allowed Bush to establish an abstinence only plan in Africa and put a guy in charge who had no experience with AIDS see here: http://leninology.blogspot.com/2005/06/victory-for-millions.html

Oh, and they haven’t paid their taxes.

Sorry U2, fans, Bono’s kinda a fraud.

Comment #51: Jenny  on  10/01  at  03:13 PM

Conservatives are going to figure this out soon and steal it, and then what will we do?

Do you read Yglesias’s blog?  There’s a guy who’s always going on about hipsters as the root of all evil.  So it has already begun. 

But it isn’t really “good taste.”  It’s mostly just adversarial.  When other people like something, that makes it suck, especially if the other people also like other things that suck.  U2 or Coldplay may inherently suck from a hipster perspective, but the important thing is that they begin to suck harder and harder as more people begin to like them.  Ideally, every band should have only as many fans as it takes to make it worthwhile for them to continue to perform, and each one beyond that is, like, a demerit and a sign of pandering/selling out.  Bah.  It’s exhausting.

Comment #52: FlipYrWhig  on  10/01  at  03:26 PM

“I’ll take Bono’s ego and political stances over Lars Ulrich’s.  Speaking of bands losing their souls…”

Ah, soul is overrated. “All Nightmare Long” made me forget all about all of Lars’ douchiness.

Nobody who complains about strident leftist politics in their music was a metalhead in late 80s who read lyric sheets. Metallica was always fairly safe for a thrash metal band (no hailing Satan) and they wrote plenty of songs that’d make John J. Miller’s head asplode, especially pre-Black album. I’m not sure I can come up with a metal band from that era that didn’t have leftish diatribes, especially for their times.

Comment #53: witless chum  on  10/01  at  03:28 PM

They allowed Bush to establish an abstinence only plan in Africa

That’s nothing.  They “allowed” Bush to start a pointless war, too!

Comment #54: FlipYrWhig  on  10/01  at  03:29 PM

I’m not sure I can come up with a metal band from that era that didn’t have leftish diatribes, especially for their times.

I remember Metallica being on the cover of the New York Times Magazine in 1987 or 1988.  The title was “Heavy Metal, Heavy Issues.”  (Saw them in 1988 on the “...And Justice For All” tour.)  And then there was confusion about why the Black Album had the “Don’t Tread On Me” song.

Comment #55: FlipYrWhig  on  10/01  at  03:33 PM

U2 is cool music in the sense that they’re always the best band in someone’s shitty music collection

It doesn’t piss me off—I know I’m not a connoisseur of music in any way and don’t particularly care, so I just skip ninety percent of the music threads.  Hell, the most recent album I sang through was the Phineas and Ferb cartoon soundtrack (with kids, but still).  My creative talents are more on the visual side, especially if compared to many Music Snobs’ (tm) <g>.  So I like U2, and while I find Bono occasionally tiresome and think smoking has really messed up his voice, I have to admire a group that basically got together as kids with a half-formed notion of playing music even though none of them actually knew how, became pretty damned formidable as they mastered it, and have stuck together for 30+ years.  And God knows they haven’t consistently phoned it in like the Stones did after their own 20-year mark.

Anyway, I enjoy the fact that Bono annoys wankers like Miller, and that he (or someone) paid $200 for the experience.  It makes me want to buy their newest album, in fact.

Comment #57: latts  on  10/01  at  03:44 PM

I don’t know why hipsters snobs invest so much energy into making sure everyone knows that they’re too cool for U2, what with Bono’s painful sincerity and all. It’s all so fucking predicable. We get it. You live in Austin. You’re cooler and more ironic than we are. What’s next? A post about how all the bands we like you liked 6 years ago? 1200 words on why you can’t stand Springsteen?

I’d be curious to know how many of the reflexive U2 haters still admit to being REM fans. Because if you want to talk about a band that got huge, then went off a motherfucking cliff as far as quality and creativity goes, REM is it. Don’t get me wrong, they’re a *great* band, but they’ve been a nostalgia act for nearly 20 years. At least U2 has had Vertigo and Beautiful Day. Although I’m sure “Beautiful Day” won’t pass the “must-always-be-ironic-and-detached” test.

Comment #58: Hippie Killer  on  10/01  at  04:11 PM

Or going to a B grade comedy and being mad that there’s fart jokes and a scene where a kid kicks a grown man in the balls.

“Ow, my balls!” #1 TV show in the year 2505. smile

I’m sure it reveals something deep about John J. Miller, conservatives, propagandists, and/or ideologues, but I can’t think of it right now.

They are the vanguard of idiocracy.

Comment #59: liberalrob  on  10/01  at  04:40 PM

I can’t believe all these people jumping Amanda’s shit for daring to speak the truth. U2 suck. I would personally say U2 didn’t always suck, but that new(ish) “get on your boots” single is one of the shittiest songs I’ve ever heard. It’s U2’s answer to that godawful “pink is my favorite color” song from Aerosmith, another band that was once pretty decent but now completely suck. Or like the new Pearl Jam album. Or how the Rolling Stones haven’t recorded a decent album since before I was born.

I read an interview with Henry Rollins the other day where he spoke of his disinterest in making music right now, that on his last tour he felt ridiculous, just too fucking old to be jumping around on stage. With the exception of a tiny handful of bands and artists, you reach a certain age and you lose it. Rock n Roll is a youth movement. You get exceptions, but they’re rare. It’s more noticeable with bands as opposed to solo artists (thinking of Bowie and his continued relevance) because bands are a collective and the music grows out of that collective, and I think there may only be X number of good songs any collaboration can produce.

Comment #60: jessilikewhoa  on  10/01  at  04:46 PM

Speaking of R.E.M., apparently Bill Berry joined them for a show at the 40 Watt here in lovely Athens Monday night. That must’ve been what that squealing I heard all night was.

And I second latts. As someone who’s tried and failed to make a living making music, bands like U2 get much respect for being able to pull it off for so long. It ain’t as easy as it looks, and if you can manage not to make a total ass of yourself along the way - I’m looking at you, Mick Jagger - my hat goes off.

With regards to Miller’s nonsense, it puts me in mind of Steve Earle and his transition to left-wing looney. I got into him in ‘86 when he - along with Dwight Yoakam, Lyle Lovett, and k.d. lang - were part of country music’s newest batch of weird. I was 12 and his neo-Waylon shtick just worked. Then, with Copperhead Road and country radio’s increasingly cowardly programming, he shifted into the biker/redneck crowd who also dug Hank Jr., David Allan Coe and Skynyrd. These people were shocked as shit when Steve started making a big stink over stuff like the death penalty, and I remember being next to more than one indignant redneck who didn’t want to hear this hippie shit.

I remember one guy at at the Sapphire Supper Club in Orlando who wore a Confederate Flag basketball jacket - that is, the whole jacket was the flag and made of a vinyl-feeling substance - screaming at Earle to “shut his hippie faggot ass up and fuckin’ play ‘Copperhead Fuckin’ Road’” inre: banning the death penalty. Guy honestly felt he was wronged by the resulting butt-first exit from the club.

Comment #61: Matt T.  on  10/01  at  04:47 PM

Thought more, and just want to add that Miller is of course ridiculous to be offended at U2’s liberalism. When I saw Ted Nugent open for KISS he rambled on about guns and all his Ted Nugenty goodness, but I didn’t get all huffy. It’s Ted Nugent, I couldn’t have expected anything else.

Comment #62: jessilikewhoa  on  10/01  at  04:57 PM

I think R.E.M. redeemed themselves with Accelerate.

Comment #63: Raging Red  on  10/01  at  05:07 PM

Amanda, you obviously didn’t read the link by AJ Kandy: U2’s names were given to them by other people. The Edge was called that because he was skinny—yeah that’s amazingly pretentious (and Bono Vux was the name of a store near where they grew up—being named after a store is hugely pretentious). Pretty much all people in bands at the time had nicknames (it mostly came out of punk, but a lot of new wavers did it to). I also find it weird that you have a problem with his earnestness and yet say you like punk—many punk bands (like early Clash, Sex Pistols, Dead Kennedy’s) were some of the most earnest bands ever. In general I try not to justify my musical tastes because the reasons are nebulous: the same reason that I might like one band might be why I dislike another—it really comes down to I whether I like the sound.

There is a class of people who just do not like bands that are too popular: when U2 first came out they were loved by critics and a small class of people. They very quickly became popular (in Boston they played a club their first tour, a 2000 person venue the second, and the Boston Garden the third—all in about a year) and the same class of people soon decided they didn’t like them anymore. A year later, the same music, but now they didn’t like it (yeah I knew some of these people). If you don’t like ‘hipster’ what do you call them?

The fact that Bono says he wrote some songs from stuff in the newspaper is part of a long tradition in Rock: Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds was written about a picture drawn by John Lennon’s son, Sgt Pepper is taken almost word for word from a poster for a circus.

Comment #64: JohnL  on  10/01  at  05:08 PM

Wow! I had no idea how many covers of War Pigs there are on Youtube!

Comment #65: PhysioProf  on  10/01  at  05:16 PM

“...the sad thing is that The Edge doesn’t even have the most pretentious name in the band!  We call the lead singer just Bono now, but he was originally Bono Vox, which was taken from the Latin “bonavox”, which means “good voice”.  No, I’m not kidding.”

All this talk about Bono’s pretentiousness reminds me of a joke I heard one time:

Eric Clapton dies and goes up to heaven. He’s greeted at the Pearly Gates by Jim Morrison, who offers to introduce him around.
“Meet John Lennon,”  Morrison says, and Calpton shakes hands with the former Beatle. “Here’s Janis Joplin…here’s Jimi Hendirx….over here we have Johnny Cash…” you get the picture.

As they’re walking down one hallway, Clapton catches a glimpse of Bono.

“Hey,” he asks Jim Morrison, “What’s Bono doing up here? He’s not dead.”

“Oh, that’s not Bono,” Morrison replies, “That’s God, he thinks he’s Bono.”

Comment #66: Hornet  on  10/01  at  05:18 PM

You know what the fun thing about hipsters is? Here I’m using the true definition of hipster as “a cooler than thou, poser”, and not Amanda’s attempt to turn it into a anti-intellectual pejorative(nice try Amanda). The fun thing about hipster’s is that they age. Each year they have to try harder to keep up with the “edgier” kids, who are laughing at the hipsters music choices from her youth.

Comment #67: pablo  on  10/01  at  05:25 PM

When other people like something, that makes it suck, especially if the other people also like other things that suck.  U2 or Coldplay may inherently suck from a hipster perspective, but the important thing is that they begin to suck harder and harder as more people begin to like them.

And yet that doesn’t explain why evil hipsters like myself can like New Order or REM.  There’s definitely poseurs who try to gauge the suckitude of something by how popular it is, but the idea that popular=sucking comes from an observable phenomenon, a regressing to the mean in quality that one usually has to embrace to be popular.  Which is to say that, like in politics, in order to maximize the people that like you, you have to focus more on being non-offensive than being good, and sometimes you have to run like hell away from anything that would make you better, because that increases the odds of someone finding you offensive.  U2 has figured this out, of course.  They never rock too hard, or experiment too wildly.  They are drawn to elements whose very mediocrity assures that they will be comforting.  Indeed, it’s a lot like bland but greasy comfort foods that also sell well while being not good food. 

Some bands manage to elide the requirement to be bland and mediocre while still being popular.  Prince did a bang-up job throughout the 80s, for instance.  But as our population ages, that becomes less and less true, because a lot of people who might have been interested in something edgier or more challenging in their youth often find that they’re happy with the comfort food as they age.  That’s why U2 hangs in as a stadium rock band while those who still cling to some artistic integrity can’t quite make it there. 

There’s just more people that want a few safe bands that will never do anything challenging to listen to than there are people who love music.  There are more people who will pay a few hundred bucks to go to a concert once every couple of years and make a night of it than there are people who spend that much, but over dozens of shows and supporting dozens of bands.  That’s why there’s a strong correlation between being mediocre/playing yesterday’s blues and popularity.  And that’s why there’s a strong desire to say Evil Hipsters invented the correlation, and they don’t like band X because they’re popular, when it very well could be that they don’t like the mediocrity that makes band X popular, but do like band Y who was also popular but didn’t suck.  Like the Stones.  Or Nirvana, actually.  Hell, I’ll take a bank shot and say I think the Foo Fighters have some really good songs.

Comment #68: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/01  at  05:36 PM

I’d be curious to know how many of the reflexive U2 haters still admit to being REM fans. Because if you want to talk about a band that got huge, then went off a motherfucking cliff as far as quality and creativity goes, REM is it.

Agreed, but they used to be good, and that’s the difference. 

If you assume incorrectly that Evil Hipsters like me automatically dislike something because it’s popular, that could confuse you.  But if you allow that Evil Hipsters might actually be judging the music for itself—-and that Evil Hipsters, being people who listen to a lot of music, might have a reason to trust their own taste—-then why like REM and not U2 makes a lot of sense.

Comment #69: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/01  at  05:39 PM

I also find it weird that you have a problem with his earnestness and yet say you like punk—many punk bands (like early Clash, Sex Pistols, Dead Kennedy’s) were some of the most earnest bands ever.

Really?  You’re really going to suggest they didn’t lace their politics with humor?  Really?  I mean, I don’t know what to say to that.  The Clash’s second biggest hit—-“Rock the Casbah”—-had funny lyrics.

And if you don’t get that DK has laugh out loud funny lyrics, I don’t know what to do.

But humor is about more than lyrical content.  It’s also about the music itself.  You just can’t run around with your arms and chest out with a self-important look to your face, perhaps with the wind blowing in your face, to the Pistols, Clash, or DK the way that U2 practically demands that you do.

Comment #70: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/01  at  05:43 PM

I don’t give a flying fuck about earnestness. I just want the fucking music to not suck ass.

Examples: U2—earnest and sucks ass; Sex Pistols—not earnest and doesn’t suck ass; Velvet Underground—earnest and doesn’t suck ass; Pink Floyd—earnest and doesn’t suck ass; etc.

Comment #71: PhysioProf  on  10/01  at  05:54 PM

Earnest punk rock that doesn’t suck ass: X, the band.

Comment #72: Hornet  on  10/01  at  06:03 PM

Fair enough.  I suppose earnestness just becomes way more grating if you suck, but like many things, you can get away with a lot (aesthetically!  Polanski should go to jail) if you don’t suck.

Comment #73: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/01  at  06:05 PM

In terms of hipsters: there were people who liked U2 and within a year they didn’t—the only thing that had changed was they were popular (they hadn’t released any new music).

What I love about some people is their inflated sense of self: I don’t like the music so it sucks. To see how far this goes, pretty much all early punkers thought the Beatles sucked (actually they didn’t just think they sucked, they thought they had ruined rock).

Comment #74: JohnL  on  10/01  at  06:11 PM

Maybe it’s not that their music changed, maybe it’s that other (better) music came out.

Comment #75: Wallace  on  10/01  at  06:14 PM

I will say the older I get, the more I appreciate bands that can wrap up a political/cultural message in some humor or fun.  I’m very much a fan of George Clinton’s outlook, where you give ‘em what they want—-some crazy fun silly dance music—-and then include lyrical content supporting political views you might have, which for him was a mish-mash of hippie love stuff and also trying to provoke people to think about stratified social roles and how those might change.  Or Devo’s approach, which combines humor and performance art aspects to bundle their critique.  I’m not so sure it’s as effective when they shoot straight from the hip, even as I agree with them. 

Of course,  in both cases, you’re looking at bands that, while popular, were limited somewhat in their broad appeal by aesthetic demands they put on themselves.  I just don’t get the idea that U2 started off good and started to suck; the only time they didn’t suck was Zooropa, and that was well into their career. Their early stuff pulls a lot of post-punk elements together but drains the soul out of them.  Everything they do you can find in Joy Division or PIL, except those bands are doing more interesting stuff with those elements.

Comment #76: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/01  at  06:18 PM

But as our population ages, that becomes less and less true, because a lot of people who might have been interested in something edgier or more challenging in their youth often find that they’re happy with the comfort food as they age.  That’s why U2 hangs in as a stadium rock band while those who still cling to some artistic integrity can’t quite make it there.

That’s what I meant when I said we get “set in our ways.”  The music we found edgy and challenging in our youth is the music we like to hear, if we liked edgy and challenging music.  But what is considered “edgy and challenging” today is not what was considered “edgy and challenging” back then; in fact it probably didn’t exist, almost by definition.

“Artistic integrity” is a tough one.  Rush changed their style several times over the decades, losing old fans and gaining new ones along the way; was that a reflection of artistic integrity?  Does artistic integrity mean always experimenting and trying new things, or does it mean finding a voice that feels right and staying within it?  Does artistic integrity mean purposely not trying to enlarge your fanbase by making more of the music they (the fans) like?  One of the consequences of having so much integrity that you don’t give a fuck what your fans think is that you run the risk of completely alienating them, and thus becoming irrelevant.  Artists have to eat…

I think the trick is finding the balance between artistic integrity and selling out completely.  If you get it more or less right, you become U2.

There’s just more people that want a few safe bands that will never do anything challenging to listen to than there are people who love music.

To like the same bands you liked in your youth is not to love music?  That’s news to my CD collection…

Comment #77: liberalrob  on  10/01  at  06:21 PM

Wallace, there are people who like to think they’re the only ones who get some band—they have to be at least an ok band, but the real thrill is that they’re not known by many. There were (I assume there still are) a decent amount of them at almost all the clubs I went to.

Comment #78: JohnL  on  10/01  at  06:24 PM

Maybe it’s not that their music changed, maybe it’s that other (better) music came out.

No, that’s not it.  Like I just noted, from the get-go, U2 was actually right in line with what was going on in the kind of hazy music world that we would call indie rock nowadays. They sounded a lot like their contemporaries, especially in Great Britain.  The New British Invasion, as it were.  And a lot of those folks—-the Jam, PIL, and Joy Division come to mind—-were wildly popular, so the idea that this is just a swipe against popularity doesn’t fly.  I do believe all of these had #1 hits, and before U2 at that. 

But U2 watered the sound down.  You hold their early albums against these contemporaries, and they sound weak and cowardly in comparison.  Not much there there.  There’s not the sonic experimentation of PIL, the urgency and darkness of Joy Division, or the melodic integrity and occasional sheer fun of the Jam.  They were writing stadium rock as stadium rock, and the very soullessness of it is a point in its favor in that environment.  The limits of the stadium are a legendary issue for most rock musicians who break it so big they feel they have to play it, but U2 took all the negatives—-the lack of intimacy, the flattening out of the sound, the need for everything to be bombastic to even translate—-and made that their aesthetic. 

Oh, you know what other mega smash 80s band I adore?  The Cure.

Comment #79: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/01  at  06:27 PM

I mean, Zooropa was an okay album.  I thought it had good songs.  But around the same time, I remember getting into Bad Religion, Fugazi, and Rage Against the Machine’s first album.  Radiohead, Beck.  White Zombie got really popular right around that same time.  Cracker.  The Toadies.  The Lemonheads.  You wouldn’t say U2 owned 1993/1994.  Then they disappeared for a few years, and next thing you know they emerge as THE BIGGEST BAND ON THE PLANET, for no obvious reason.

Comment #80: Wallace  on  10/01  at  06:27 PM

liberalrob, I’m not interested in the tedious sell-out narrative.  I’m not a fan of the idea that popularity means you suck or that you did something wrong.  See: Nirvana, the Cure, and even REM, who did not start going downhill for years after they hit it big.  Artistic integrity is putting soul and aesthetics ahead of other considerations.  Now, you could argue that U2’s soul and aesthetic is to embrace the soulless bombast of mediocrity, and I’m game to that argument, which would mean that they are true to their vision.  But mostly it’s being true to your vision.  Visions can change, and I respect artists who change with their visions, even if they end up losing the magic.  But they probably would have lost it anyway; their last vision usually had limited appeal. 

Integrity is probably a lot like obscenity: You know it when you see it.

Comment #81: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/01  at  06:32 PM

U2 was never really popular with the “Hipsters” of their day (unless somehow Rolling Stone magazine counts, which they don’t.) In fact, they were criticized by people who know what they are talking about for basically ripping off Echo and the Bunnymen wholesale.

Also, ditto what Amanda has said over the course of this thread. I have an entire wall of my house filled with music. The bulk of information eating up the dwindling number of gigs on my computer is music. I go to see live shows many times a month, often more than 3 times a week, depending on the week. The point is that I listen to a lot of music, and not just hipster approved(tm), but a lot, period. All real music lovers (even those of us who like to look good when we leave the house) do this. We’re not trying to show off, we’re trying to find more of what we like.

That’s why, for example, Jello Biafra can be one of the godfathers of hardcore punk, but is also one of the world’s foremost experts on Novelty music. (thank him for the Incredibly Strange Music compilations back in the 90s, BTW.) So when someone who listens to a lot of music says they don’t like something, they probably mean they don’t like it, and not because they’re trying to hurt people’s feelings, or exclude them. Hell, I don’t want to exclude people! I want people to enjoy music as much as I do. I want them to not be satisfied with bland, flavorless goo when they could be eating a french feast!

Point - when I say something is kind of mediocre or just outright sucks large, I like to think I know what I’m talking about. At least, I’d like to think I know what I’m talking about more than someone for whom U2 represents the best music in their collection.

Also, want to echo that Zooropa is actually a very good album. I like it a lot.

And again, I promise I’m not trying to insult anyone here personally.

Comment #82: Ross Lincoln  on  10/01  at  06:36 PM

Wallace, I think they emerged as the biggest band on the planet because that’s what they set out to do.  They exploited a vacuum, too, because the 90s were really an era where market fragmentation started to set in, and stadium rock as a genre really started to die out.  Lollapalooza had a lot to do with that, too—-take a lot of bands that couldn’t fill a stadium on their own, put them in a stadium, and help increase their visibility.  The side effect was that it further undermined the notion of stadium rock, and gave people a taste of how fun it could be to go to shows that aren’t your favorite band ever. 

The other thing that happened, and this is probably the most important thing, was that Ticketmaster got a monopoly on all these big venues, and started to jack the prices up through the roof.  Since fees will easily double the cost of a ticket or more, there’s no reason to go to a show at a big venue unless they are your Favorite Band Ever, and so the only bands that can pull that off anymore are those that have a huge fan base.  U2 can charge whatever they want and still sell out.  Not that many artists can do that anymore.  The winners are people like me that live in towns with a lot of smaller venues that don’t sell through Ticketmaster.  I got to see the Cure in a place that probably only holds 2,000 people, if that.

Comment #83: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/01  at  06:38 PM

For me, it’s not even that U2 sucks so terribly bad. I mostly think they’re kind of average, really—it’s how their music is always shoved in my face and also always touted as the best, most amazing thing ever that I really find annoying. Every time that goddamn Blackberry commercial plays, they treat this U2 song like it’s the most epic song that ever happened, as if we’ve all been waiting for it, and here it is! It’s the pomp and hype that I really object to.

I don’t even think that Coldplay suck. I’m just tired of hearing all of the songs off of that one album everywhere I go. It’s not that I hate that they have so many fans, I just hate hearing the same six or seven singles again and again and again all the damn time. Like that Norah Jones album! It was okay, some songs were pretty good. But Christ, did we need to hear them so damn many times? That’s what happens a lot of the time when a band explodes in popularity is their songs get so overplayed that you never want to hear them again.

Comment #84: Jenny Dreadful  on  10/01  at  06:41 PM

And that’s why there’s a strong desire to say Evil Hipsters invented the correlation, and they don’t like band X because they’re popular, when it very well could be that they don’t like the mediocrity that makes band X popular, but do like band Y who was also popular but didn’t suck.

No, I’m sorry, that’s bullshit.  Hipster taste doesn’t rely on spotting mediocrity first.  Hipster taste relies on defining _as_ mediocrity what that particular hipster doesn’t like.  So it’s not that you don’t like U2, it’s that you don’t like U2 _because_ it’s mediocre, which shows that your taste is the product of carefully calibrated aesthetic judgment rather than just happening to be what you like.  You define it as sonic comfort food based on… what?  Where’s the mediocrity?  Can you point to it? 

I don’t have any issue with saying that U2 sucks.  I’m meh about Prince and think that the Devo fixation is rather peculiar, but, you know, whatever.  The sticking point with me is this “mediocrity” claim.  To me that sounds like you don’t like it because it’s designed to appeal to people with worse taste than you, and hence it lacks “integrity.” 

I mean, frankly, Pandagon used to have a much smaller audience, and now it reaches more people.  But I don’t think Pandagon Sold Out, or curried favor with a lowest common denominator.  So I don’t see why U2 can’t also be seen as making the music they fucking well want to make, and seeing who buys it—rather than being part of a machine that cranks out Extruded Music Product for dullards.

Comment #85: FlipYrWhig  on  10/01  at  06:43 PM

It could be that there had to be something to replace Nirvana: who completely dominated radio for two or three years (I really like Nirvana, but did I really need to hear Nirvana wannabes all day).

Comment #86: JohnL  on  10/01  at  06:44 PM

I will say there are genuinely poseurs out there who hate everything that’s popular, but that’s hardly evidence they’re music people.  It’s usually evidence that they don’t know anything about music, and can’t make their own judgments, but want to be cool. Conflating them with genuine music geeks under the banner of “hipster” to condemn us all is unfair.

Please point to where I condemned anyone for selling out.  Ever since I was 16 years old, and Kurt Cobain singled that issue out in his suicide note, I’ve been uneasy with the bullshit narrative of how you’re a bad person if you make money.

Comment #87: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/01  at  06:47 PM

@ PhysioProf:

Examples: U2—earnest and sucks ass; Sex Pistols—not earnest and doesn’t suck ass; Velvet Underground—earnest and doesn’t suck ass; Pink Floyd—earnest and doesn’t suck ass; etc.

A friend of mine in college played Velvet Underground for me.  I don’t think I ever wanted more to smash my head against something to please, please make it stop.  That was before I heard TV On The Radio.  Teh Suck.

Comment #88: FlipYrWhig  on  10/01  at  06:48 PM

Mander, you keep comparing U2 to bands that they’re only tangentially similar to. Joy Division? I don’t think U2 was ever trying to be dark. It’s apples and oranges.

Comment #89: Hippie Killer  on  10/01  at  06:50 PM

Plus, I’ve been, from the original post itself, adamant that U2 couldn’t have sold out, because that would mean they used to be good and they deliberately changed that to be popular.  I think they’ve always sucked, always had a rather weak ear for the trends of their time, always been a pale imitation.  Turning that into being the biggest band on the planet might be the smartest and most interesting thing they’ve done, and sometimes I like to believe that it’s a long performance art piece.  And then I look at Bono’s smug face and realize you can’t fake that.

Comment #90: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/01  at  06:51 PM

They’re not tangentially similar.  Goodness!  They were all part of a very specific late 70s/early 80s British post punk aesthetic.  That U2 does a weak version of it doesn’t mean they weren’t trying.

Comment #91: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/01  at  06:52 PM

Please point to where I condemned anyone for selling out.

They’re “watered-down”; “safe”; no soul; “I think they emerged as the biggest band on the planet because that’s what they set out to do.”  I suppose you’re not saying that they “sold out” in the sense that they ever wanted to do something else, because in your mind they’ve been suckage from start to finish, but the other sense of “selling out” is doing it for the paycheck rather than for the Artistic Statement, no?

Comment #92: FlipYrWhig  on  10/01  at  06:52 PM

Plus, I’ve been, from the original post itself, adamant that U2 couldn’t have sold out, because that would mean they used to be good and they deliberately changed that to be popular.

Right—our comments crossed in the aether.  I clarified at 5:52 PM.

Comment #93: FlipYrWhig  on  10/01  at  06:54 PM

I feel this way about most classic rock. There are many good songs, but the radio stations only ever play a few singles from a few albums by a few bands. I’m sure that minds would be blown if more political or challenging socks were played, so you don’t hear Five To One by the Doors on the radio, instead, you hear Touch Me for the gazillionth time. 

My dad likes classic rock and old country and is always really resistant when I show up with my mp3 player and start playing my jams. However, I have introduced him to Elliott Smith, and now he’s a fanatic. My dad is a hardcore conservative Republican who lives in a trailer down a dirt road, and he owns every single Elliott Smith album, even the stuff he did on Kill Rockstars. He even has his Heatmeiser stuff! He visited his memorial in LA! I guess my point is that when you’re introduced to a broader range of music, you’ll find stuff you like. It’s normal to be upset if someone maligns you because of the type of music you listen to, or insists that you’re pretending to like the Sex Pistols in order to make other people feel stupid. But dude, music can really bring people together. I can listen to Radiohead and Willie Nelson with my dad. Music and beer is pretty much all we talk about. And we have a pretty great relationship!

I understand how people could think that a few of us hate U2 because they’re popular. I guess that’s part of it, really. Their popularity is what makes their music so damn ubiquitous that you cannot escape it. And this gives the impression that it sucks, when really, it doesn’t suck, at least, not in the way that a bad piano recital sucks. Or Limp Bizkit.

Comment #94: Jenny Dreadful  on  10/01  at  07:03 PM

I remain amused at how the word “hipster” has become an all-purpose insult.

Hmmph.  If you think I was trying to insult you by calling you an “intelligent hipster”, I’m obviously JUST GOING TO HAVE TO RANT HARDER in the places I actually mean to get your goat, dear.

Comment #95: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  10/01  at  07:03 PM

All real music lovers (even those of us who like to look good when we leave the house) do this. We’re not trying to show off, we’re trying to find more of what we like.

I dunno.  My sense of “music lovers” of that ilk is that they’re even more passionate about identifying what they hate.  I was doing college radio in the early 1990s.  (You know, when Nirvana sucked, because it was too popular, and even the jocks and metalheads would like it.)  I worked to develop my reflexively-dismissive muscles.  Then I got better.  Or stopped caring.  Either way.

Comment #96: FlipYrWhig  on  10/01  at  07:08 PM

“Ow, my balls!” #1 TV show in the year 2505. 

Was “Idiocracy” written pre- or post-“Jackass”?

Comment #97: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  10/01  at  07:10 PM

My sense of “music lovers” of that ilk is that they’re even more passionate about identifying what they hate.

Music and politics are similar things - it’s easier to identify what you hate because there’s so much goddamned bullshit out there. I’d love it if every politician was a cross between Obama’s talking abilities, kucinich’s politics and Don Corleone’s ruthlessness, but most are either middle of the road mushy centrist sellouts, or downright evil.

Same with music. There’s an awful lot of shit out there.

As for the era you’re speaking of? Surely you aren’t ignoring the fact that prior to Nirvana, you could get your ass kicked just for liking good stuff, right? A lot of resentment was because the very same people who were calling us faggots and beating us up 6 months before were now trying to coopt our culture and pretend they’d always been “weird”. Those people still exist today, and they’re probably the asshole hipsters people assume are ubiquitous.

It’s kind of annoying. Even Kurt Cobain was aware of it, as he made mention of at every single concert nirvana played, and in his suicide note.

Not saying it’s right, but it is context that shouldn’t be ignored.

Comment #98: Ross Lincoln  on  10/01  at  07:18 PM

I dunno, Amanda has tons of posts about music she thinks is awesome—not a lot where she singles something out as being shitty. And the post itself didn’t criticize U2 overmuch. She just said that they were humorless and political, which is pretty true. She also said that their popularity made them a safe band for nitwits and assholes who want to enjoy rock music, and Miller kind of helps her make that point.

Comment #99: Jenny Dreadful  on  10/01  at  07:19 PM

They’re “watered-down”; “safe”; no soul; “I think they emerged as the biggest band on the planet because that’s what they set out to do.” I suppose you’re not saying that they “sold out” in the sense that they ever wanted to do something else, because in your mind they’ve been suckage from start to finish, but the other sense of “selling out” is doing it for the paycheck rather than for the Artistic Statement, no?

I said they were able at angling their mediocrity into selling gazilions of records and, more importantly, selling out huge stadiums at outrageous prices.  But I have repeatedly denied that mediocre and popular are the exact same thing.  U2 could have been a mediocre post-punk band that fizzled out early.  Plenty did.  There are bands who hit it big while still having integrity.  I named a number, contemporary to U2, in this thread. 

They are soulless.  It helps their popularity, because they’re safe.  But I will not be baited into the selling out discourse.  That’s what you want me to say, because “selling out” is a term used by poseurs who don’t know anything about music, and it will make it easier to dismiss my far more nuanced and carefully explained opinion.

Comment #100: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/01  at  07:22 PM

My sense of “music lovers” of that ilk is that they’re even more passionate about identifying what they hate. 

Not really.  As your experience with being tortured with one of my all-time favorite bands, the Velvet Underground, shows, we are even more insufferable when we’re doing what we really love, which is praising music we like. That’s when people really fucking hate us, because they feel left out.

Comment #101: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/01  at  07:24 PM

BTW - I assume everyone has seen <ahref=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4u6Eeb0YrKY&feature=PlayList&p=D7F2058ADC4DC844&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=26”>this</a> at some stage?

Comment #102: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  10/01  at  07:28 PM

Music and politics are similar things - it’s easier to identify what you hate because there’s so much goddamned bullshit out there.

Exactly right, and that’s why I’m kind of fed up with the whole thing right now.  I think the same habit that drives hipster/music snob cred also drives lefty-blog cred:  you have to be outraged and/or disappointed and/or aloof, you have to be the lonely voice crying out in the wilderness, you have to style yourself to be the brave truth-teller.  Which means positioning yourself as an outsider but better, truer, more authentic, with more integrity for being so.  So I’m counter-bitching about this U2 business not because I care about U2 (I don’t think I do) but because I’m just tired of people who get such glee from running down the naive dupes who actually like mainstream stuff like U2, Coldplay… and Obama.  Sorry everyone, I’m in a snippy mood today.

Comment #103: FlipYrWhig  on  10/01  at  07:33 PM

So I’m counter-bitching about this U2 business not because I care about U2 (I don’t think I do) but because I’m just tired of people who get such glee from running down the naive dupes who actually like mainstream stuff like U2, Coldplay… and Obama. 

So you’re fighting what you perceive as knee-jerk contrarianism by being… contrarian? Sorry, does not compute. By your logic, it’s more politically brave to embrace forced pregnancy than it is to be outraged by how many people are willing to sell it out. If something is a fucking outrage, I’d rather be fucking outraged by it than otherwise.

In other words, clearly you don’t get my point at all.

Comment #104: Ross Lincoln  on  10/01  at  07:38 PM

Well I definitely know how you feel about that, FlipYrWhig. I find a lot of the instant backlash against Obama to be pretty strange. I don’t think he’s done everything exactly right, but I certainly don’t think he’s as bad as Bush, which some people are incredulously claiming.

Comment #105: Jenny Dreadful  on  10/01  at  07:38 PM

Although I loathe her tendency to forever describe herself as a hipster I agree with Amanda on this one (I think her point was that the right-wing talking head was trying to prove his credentials by namedropping his love for the most middlebrow band on the planet and still failing miserably?) and there’ve have been a lot of people using claims that are plainly wrong to back up their arguments. Here’s the real situation:

When U2 started out they were a post-punk band. Martin Hannett, who crafted the sound of Joy Division as well as a lot of other 80’s British new wave bands, produced their first single, which provided the rough template for their sound over their first three albums. They were full blown contemporaries until around the mid-80’s when Eno and Lanois started producing them.

Then of course they made the Joshua Tree, sold 15 million copies and became the biggest band in the world until, roughly today. There was no ‘suddenly became big’ in 1994 because they’d had number one albums and played stadiums since 1987, and continued to do so since. They deserve huge credit for making the decision at the end of the 80’s to explore a more interesting, innovative sound and for collaborating with radical artists to construct something as artistically engaging as the ZOO TV tour and the Zooropa album (should also point out them putting Adam Clayton’s cock on the front of their album and doing a song with Johnny Cash when he was in the very depths of his critical and commercial exile).

Where they fucked up majorly was losing their balls after ‘Pop’ didn’t sell. Pop failed because Bono was reportedly a huge coke fiend at the time (the transcript of any interview from the mid-90’s will back this up) and instead of writing new material built the album around Zooropa cast-offs. The comparitively low sales caused an artistic retreat into their current generic stadium rock territory. Music fans hate U2 not because they’re popular (Kanye West and Britney are popular and they’re ‘hipster’ favourites) but because they’re still desperately trying to pretend they’re an edgy band when they’re in fact the exact opposite.

The act of hypocrites in other words. The acts of a man who would help set up a major rock festival to highlight global warming and poverty while organising a taxi and a first class plane seat for his fucking hat. The act of a band who would rail against world poverty while refusing to pay taxes, even moving away from their native country, where they’d enjoyed tax-free perks for years, once they were expected to pay their fair share. U2 remain popular because they play musically unadventurous three chord rock songs with deliberately bland and nondescript lyrics, so as to not offend anyone. See also Coldplay, Foo Fighters, Chilli Peppers, etc., etc. If you like U2, fair enough, but don’t call people names when they point out your taste veers toward the middle of the road.

And the Dead Kennedys earnest? Has whoever wrote that ever heard a Dead Kennedys song?

Comment #106: Stubborn Kind of Fellow  on  10/01  at  07:41 PM

They are soulless.  It helps their popularity, because they’re safe.  But I will not be baited into the selling out discourse.

I don’t see the distinction.  They’re motivated by commerce and not by soul.  Is it the difference between selling your soul and never having had a soul to begin with?  Nonetheless, the problem is still “What is soul, and why don’t they have it?”  I mean categorically, conceptually. 

Gaming it out devil’s-advocate style, I wonder if it turns back into the importance of being earnest.  Maybe for your tastes they’re too earnest to have genuine soul, only simulated soul or pseudo soul, or they’re not quirky enough.  For me, quirks get old fast.

Comment #107: FlipYrWhig  on  10/01  at  07:42 PM

FTR, I promise I wasn’t claiming that he’s as bad as Bush. I don’t deny that I’m sick of moderate corporate sellouts having more pull with him than people who haven’t been wrong about everything. But he’s loads better than Bush.

Comment #108: Ross Lincoln  on  10/01  at  07:43 PM

Sorry about the long rant. Once I started I couldn’t stop but hey, at least it was on a webpage rather than at a party or something, eh?

Comment #109: Stubborn Kind of Fellow  on  10/01  at  07:47 PM

So you’re fighting what you perceive as knee-jerk contrarianism by being… contrarian? Sorry, does not compute. By your logic, it’s more politically brave to embrace forced pregnancy than it is to be outraged by how many people are willing to sell it out. If something is a fucking outrage, I’d rather be fucking outraged by it than otherwise.

You can’t be fucking outraged every fucking day.  And “forced pregnancy,” very nice, I’m glad that my annoyance with discussions that turn on defining credibility as what only certain Special People can have can further stroke your fucking sense of Specialness.  Fuck off.

Comment #110: FlipYrWhig  on  10/01  at  07:48 PM

All right, I’m too pissed off to participate anymore, and it really didn’t have much to do with this thread.  I’m sorry Amanda and particularly Ross and everyone else who was looking for a real discussion when I started getting irate.  I’m taking a break.

Comment #111: FlipYrWhig  on  10/01  at  07:53 PM

I don’t see the distinction.  They’re motivated by commerce and not by soul.

Trying to reduce my nuanced argument isn’t going to work.  I think they genuinely like their own music.  I think they try to make good music.  I just don’t think they have any soul.  I think they may or may not have deliberately parlayed this into being as over the top awful as they are now, but how do I know?  I could do more research and form a firmer opinion on how deliberate this was, but I don’t care.

Comment #112: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/01  at  08:06 PM

Amanda, you have officially trolled yourself with this post! lolz

Comment #113: PhysioProf  on  10/01  at  08:40 PM

The mother of all self-trolling Pandagon posts would be about married women who like U2 and also degrade themselves for sexual gratification.  Perhaps by listening to U2.  raspberry

(I am sorry I threw a shitfit earlier.  I still want to talk about this kind of statement:  “Integrity is probably a lot like obscenity: You know it when you see it.”  I don’t trust my ability to see it, so I don’t bother looking.  I am suspicious that anyone can be quite so confident that they actually can see it.)

Comment #114: FlipYrWhig  on  10/01  at  08:55 PM

Ooh, I think I just realized something.  I think both Amanda and Ross see musical taste as something that you refine by exposure, or even practice:  go to shows, listen to anything and everything, develop a palate, like with food or wine.  That way you can feel assured that you like what you like because you’ve tried alternatives.  You work at it, train yourself.  That’s how you can tell what has soul or integrity and what doesn’t.  By that paradigm, liking U2 is like liking McDonalds french fries… if all you eat is McDonalds… and indeed it sort of indicates that most likely all you eat is McDonalds.

I don’t think I see it that way.  In my experience it’s more random.  It’s more like a favorite color.  There’s no explaining it.  Saying that blue “sucks” doesn’t make any sense.  Saying that you like fuchsia better than blue makes sense to me, but explaining it by saying that blue has no soul doesn’t.  So maybe we’re arguing from largely incompatible paradigms.

Comment #115: FlipYrWhig  on  10/01  at  09:19 PM

FYW, you have described exactly our view, but I do see where you’re coming from as well.

Comment #116: Ross Lincoln  on  10/01  at  09:39 PM

Jenny, Obama is as bad as Bush, he’s continuing his foreign policies, basically.

Comment #117: Jenny  on  10/01  at  09:39 PM

Thanks, Ross, and I regret that I had to get all worked up and, frankly, dickish to get to that breakthrough.

Comment #118: FlipYrWhig  on  10/01  at  09:43 PM

@ Ross:  Despite what I said before, you’re special after all.  :D raspberry XB

Comment #119: FlipYrWhig  on  10/01  at  09:47 PM

Ross, I’m not sure if you’re dense or trying a Cicero here:

So when someone who listens to a lot of music says they don’t like something, they probably mean they don’t like it, and not because they’re trying to hurt people’s feelings, or exclude them. Hell, I don’t want to exclude people! I want people to enjoy music as much as I do. I want them to not be satisfied with bland, flavorless goo when they could be eating a french feast!

Point - when I say something is kind of mediocre or just outright sucks large, I like to think I know what I’m talking about. At least, I’d like to think I know what I’m talking about more than someone for whom U2 represents the best music in their collection.

And again, I promise I’m not trying to insult anyone here personally.

but if you say that anyone who thinks U2 is the best music in their collection (or even think they’re better than mediocre) doesn’t know what they’re talking about then you just insulted them (U2 is not my favorite band, but I do think they are better than average).

I’m getting older now but for a 10 year period, I averaged going to 3 shows a week (mostly at clubs with 3-4 bands a night). What I figured out soon after getting into college and starting this routine was that just because I didn’t like a band didn’t mean they sucked (in fact when I hear that phrase, the first thing I think of is the reflexive ‘Yankees Suck’ of some Red Sox fans). I personally dislike almost all disco for example (being in junior high, high school in the late 70’s completely turned me off to it—it was everywhere, especially in small town NH, and meant the music I really liked was never played), but that doesn’t mean I think it sucks.

SKOF, go look at Fresh Fruit. All but one of the songs (Viva Las Vegas and even that is to some extent) is lampooning the state of society and the wimpiness of liberals (which I actually agree with to some extent). I suppose you might call it more of a diatribe than earnestness, but it certainly is completely serious in its intent.

Comment #120: JohnL  on  10/01  at  10:01 PM

Flip, aesthetic arguments are the worst, because there’s no facts to marshal to beef up an argument.  It really is all a matter of taste.  And I realize we Evil Hipsters can come across as shockingly insensitive to other people’s tastes.  It’s for reasons like Ross stated, but also because we can take it and so we give it without flinching.  Nearly 100% of my interactions with other music snobs involve them making fun of something I like in terms that would make anything I said here look like Pollyanna shit, and I simply don’t care.  I listen to a lot of music, and I know a lot about pop music, and I feel secure about that.  I can give it and take it. 

It’s not just music, either.  I got into a drag-out fight with a friend at a party once on the subject of Michael Chabon: hack or genius?  And we got over it exactly one millisecond after we expressed ourselves.  We have a lot of practice having people take a piss all over our opinions.

But people who aren’t exposed to our particular brand of masochism can find it shocking, I’m sure.

Comment #121: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/01  at  10:07 PM

Also, your comment @115 is very insightful.  Yes, that’s exactly what it is, and I think that goes a long way to explaining forcefully expressed aesthetic opinions.  It’s the boot camp method.  wink 

Seriously, last night I had a good friend laugh at me for saying I like a particular band that I won’t name but will say that I mentioned in this thread.  That’s just an excuse in my world to rally and defend them even more.  I may win or lose that argument, but if you lose, you take your lumps, you know?  It’s fun for us.

Comment #122: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/01  at  10:10 PM

Amanda, it’s fine, obviously, that you don’t like U2. So it’s not your thing. That’s cool. What I don’t get is your insistence that U2 were never any good, ever, for the simple reason that you never liked them. I mean come on. Most people who flat-out don’t like U2 will admit that the Joshua Tree was a great album. Even if it’s not their thing. I mean, if you really think the Joshua Tree wasn’t any good, then fine. But realize that you’re on an island.

Comment #123: Hippie Killer  on  10/01  at  10:14 PM

JohnL, serious in intent is not what I was talking about.  I was talking about the way something is put together.  A lot of humorous stuff is serious in intent, insofar as the person saying it believes it.  But there’s a wit to the Dead Kennedys, both in their lyrics and in the way their music sounds, utterly lacking in U2. 

I can bring evidence!  Here’s a sample of U2 lyrics:

One man caught on a barbed wire fence
One man he resist
One man washed on an empty beach.
One man betrayed with a kiss

In the name of love

And Dead Kennedys:

Play ethnicky jazz
To parade your snazz
On your five grand stereo
Braggin that you know
How the niggers feel cold
And the slums got so much soul

Its time to taste what you most fear
Right guard will not help you here

I bring these two lyrics up, because they are actually both circling around the status of black people in the U.S., but DK is cutting and witty about the insidious effects of racism, whereas U2’s point appears to be that MLK was a good person, a brave and daring stance if I ever heard one.

Comment #124: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/01  at  10:17 PM

What I don’t get is your insistence that U2 were never any good, ever, for the simple reason that you never liked them.

I’m hurt you think that was my argument.  I do believe I made a concise, detailed argument about my views of U2, explaining that they came from a scene and sound I like, but they are a weak imitation of the great stuff that is empty of soul and full of pomposity.  That’s not, “They suck because I don’t like them.” That’s “They suck and this is why I think so.”  The first statement is a tautology, by the way, and I do try to avoid those.

Comment #125: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/01  at  10:19 PM

Flip, aesthetic arguments are the worst, because there’s no facts to marshal to beef up an argument.

About the only Music Snob I’ve encountered (and then only online) who _does_ work to marshal facts is Michael Bérubé.  He’ll point to something interesting with rhythm, or chord changes, or other music geekery—that I can’t really understand, sadly—to say, This Is Why This Is Good.

Comment #126: FlipYrWhig  on  10/01  at  10:19 PM

U2 is empty of soul and full of pomosity, that is.  The other bands they are borrowing heavily from aren’t.

Comment #127: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/01  at  10:20 PM

And even, of course, then it’s still facts of a certain kind, and there’s no reason that unusual rhythmic elements have to be Teh Goodnezz.  But it’s one level past “I have listened to a lot of music, so, trust me, I know the difference between good and suck.”

Comment #128: FlipYrWhig  on  10/01  at  10:21 PM

Flip, I’m not entirely sure that some of the music snobs you’re putting down aren’t using basically the same arguments, but just not using technical language, probably because we’re not musicians like Michael.  I don’t think you have to be a musician to know what’s good and what’s not, and a lot of musicians have terrible taste, which is where bad music comes from.  Michael has great taste, of course.  But what he’s describing in technical language is stuff that non-musicians who nonetheless know their shit are getting at when they compare this band to that and say that it’s missing (use aesthetic and emotional language instead of technical language).

Comment #129: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/01  at  10:23 PM

No one asked you to completely trust, though.  Actual aesthetic judgments were levied.  I said U2 is watered down, missing an edge that their contemporaries had, over earnest and lacking in any humor expressed in either lyrics or in the music.  I used imagery to describe how the music makes me feel or what it makes me think of.  These are legitimate points.  I don’t think I should be required to use dense technical language to express what are still educated aesthetic judgments.  That skill comes more from playing music than listening to it, and unfortunately, I’m not blessed with any kind of talent to play.  Which is a separate thing from having good taste.

Comment #130: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/01  at  10:27 PM

Glad to see the Dead Kennedy’s get some love in this thread. I went to the Angels game on Sunday and on Sunday’s they have a tradition, started by the Yankees I think, of singing the utterly hideous God Bless America before the glorious Take Me Out To The Ballgame during the 7th inning stretch.  I’ll sing this instead:

Thank you for the toilet paper
But your flag’s meaningless to me
Look around, we’re all people
Who needs country’s anyway?

U2 has been dead to me since Paul Hewson sucked up to Jesse Helms and wined and dined him in a luxury box at a NC gig.  To be blunt, I don’t give a damn about African debt relief compared to Jesse Helms’ vile history of homophobia and AIDS funding obstruction, so Bono can stuff his “sometimes I have to deal with scumbags to get what I want” nonsense.

My beef with U2 is musical: they have a plodding rhythm section, a one-dimensional guitar player and an inability to write songs outside of a narrow template.  I was bored with their stuff by War and except for the occasional single, I’ve not been a big fan since.  I wish their ambition had been to be the *best* band in the world, not the biggest.

Comment #131: Henry Holland  on  10/01  at  10:41 PM

Amanda, your quote, like most of the Fresh Fruit album, is a dig against middle-class liberals. Not necessarily because they’re racists but because they don’t really do anything and don’t really care. The album is also decrying the inanity and corporitization of the culture of the US.

As an aside, U2 received threats from the IRA because of some of the songs in War and what Bono said at concerts. Was this brave or daring (not that that really matters in deciding if the music is good)?

I also used to argue about what bands were good or bad (ok, really just stating), but I grew out of it. I figured out that most of it comes down to what you like. You say U2 is a pale imitation of others from the era, but that’s your opinion—I like the general scene they came from and don’t agree with your opinion. The reason there are so many arguments about what’s good in the arts is because ultimately that’s what most of it comes down to (once you get past the obviously bad stuff and the completely new techniques of some artists—a particular type of camera work or use of technology to make a type of sound).

Comment #132: JohnL  on  10/01  at  11:07 PM

I should note that DK is one of my favorite bands,  so saying DK is better than U2 doesn’t really contradict me. I think U2 is a good/very good band.

Comment #133: JohnL  on  10/01  at  11:11 PM

Eh, U2 doesn’t suuuck, like, turn-that-shit-off or anything, and occasionally I’ll get touched by a song like Bullet The Blue Sky or One Tree Hill – one that hasn’t been neutered by constant airplay for 20 years – for a little while. But they are sort of like the Police in that they seem like a great band in retrospect, until you start comparing them to like any of their contemporaries.

Comment #134: brandon  on  10/01  at  11:18 PM

I was actually reflecting upon my shitty, shitty musical taste today after a whippersnapper at work decided to mock me for having a Pearl Jam sticker up in my cube.

I’m not deeply into pop music—it comes from growing up in a town without a radio station and with a mother who forbade MTV until I was well into my teens. I grew up listening to a mixture of the Beatles (my dad’s favorite band) and Dianna Ross (my mom’s favorite singer), but most of the music in our house was Bach, Beethoven and the boys.

But it wasn’t a vacuum, and the popular stuff trickled in. Three bands really grabbed me in high school: U2 (during their Achtung Baby period), Pearl Jam (Ten followed by Vs.) and Veruca Salt (I really loved that girls could play loud and angry. I still love it). Those were my bands. Because my town was a lonely outpost, the only way to really get music was to watch MTV and maybe see if it was carried at the Wal-Mart 45 miles down the road. There wasn’t a Phillip-Seymour-Hoffman-as-Lester-Bangs guru to guide a young listener towards “better” bands.

I got into college in a town with an “alternative” radio station and got myself introduced to the mid-90s alt-grunge-pop scene, but the music snobs had no patience for my novice status and I was too intimidated to hang on the edges of conversations to hear that I should be listening to this band or that.  I didn’t have money to buy albums and I wasn’t old enough to get into any of the clubs, and so my musical education petered out.

About all I can compare it to is growing up without a library, but still learning how to read. If nobody turns you onto great literature—or even forces you to read a fantastic novel—it’s not surprising if one ends up being a lifetime reader of glossy periodicals with fashion tips and a quiz in the back.

I like U2. I think “Two Hearts Beat as One” is one of the best love songs I’ve ever had the pleasure of hearing. I like Pearl Jam. I blast “Do the Evolution” when I’m feeling particularly pissed off at the right wing. I like the people that I’ve met at shows for both bands, and I really, really liked seeing Pearl Jam in concert. (U2 fans are, um, entitled, though I really regret not seeing the ZooTV tour, but my mom wouldn’t let me go on a four hour drive with high school seniors, which was a smart move in retrospect.)

At the same time, I’m dealing with hearing loss, which robs me of a lot of the nuance that other people find in music, especially rock and pop. As my hearing drops, I’ve found myself retreating back into stuff that I know, that I like. But now I’m just rationalizing.

But hey, I can’t pass a bookstore without buying a book, and I judge the crap out of people who don’t read for pleasure, so I see where the Music Snobs here are coming from.

Comment #135: Ticky  on  10/01  at  11:51 PM

Ironically however, Jello biafra turned out to be a money grubbing arse after witholding cash from his bandmates. Not that the rest of the band is touring without him is helping matters.

Comment #136: Jenny  on  10/02  at  01:23 AM

@ Amanda, I don’t know that I was putting down anyone, although I’ll cop to frustration and defensiveness.  My personal face-to-face experience with Music Snob types includes two kinds:

(1) Guy Who Wants You To Hear His Favorite Band;
(2) Guy Who Wants You To Know His Favorite Band Is Better Than Yours.

You go into a record store, walk around for a while, check out a few things.  The first type says, Hey, Hüsker Duü do you ever listen to Big Black?  The second says, Pfft.  When you ask the first guy what’s playing, he gets all excited to tell you.  The second guy looks you up and down and decides whether you’re worthy to know.

As for the technical language point:  I would never insist on that; it’s a competency I don’t even possess.  I mostly mean that it would be nice to feel like I could hear the difference between Good and Suck.  Like if someone did a note for note remake of “Bullet The Blue Sky,” it might still suck, but it wouldn’t suck for reasons having to do with the look on Bono’s face or the fact that his fans paid too much for the tickets or that some of them wore khakis.  It would suck because it tries way too hard to seem important.  And it might suck because of something having to do with the bass line, who knows.  What initially rubbed me the wrong way was potshots at the audience (“nitwits and assholes”).

I said U2 is watered down, missing an edge that their contemporaries had

But U2 has _The_ Edge!  raspberry

Honestly, my impression, which has slowly built up over time, is that edge and uniqueness are overrated, and aren’t the same thing as Good.  Someone like Bjork, for example; edgy and unique but not enjoyable for me to listen to.  Adventurous but not Pleasing.  I lean much harder on the latter now.  And I’m less likely to fault performers who want to please—because I think it’s damn hard to do.

Comment #137: FlipYrWhig  on  10/02  at  02:06 AM

Aaargh!  Hüsker Dü, obviously.  An extra U got in there.  That’s for… Ultimately, who the hell knows.

Comment #138: FlipYrWhig  on  10/02  at  02:08 AM

Amanda, I get what you’re saying about about how U2 were originally a weak imitation of a scene and sound that you like. I honestly have to agree with your assessment. But they went on to, well, do something else. I mean, if the Beatles stopped making records after 1964, a lot of people would remember them as a weak British imitation of American R&B;. This is the first, and officially LAST time I will compare U2 to the Beatles.

@Stubborn Kind of Fellow

Pop failed because Bono was reportedly a huge coke fiend at the time (the transcript of any interview from the mid-90’s will back this up) and instead of writing new material built the album around Zooropa cast-offs. The comparitively low sales caused an artistic retreat into their current generic stadium rock territory.

You’re full of shit. First, I’m pretty sure if you google “bono, coke problem, 90’s” your comment will be pretty much the only hit. I mean, not that I’d care if he had a coke problem, but jesus. Why don’t you tell us about how Larry Mullen jr.‘s vestigial tail ruined the “October” sessions while you’re at it. Second, even Amanda would (probably) agree that Zooropa wasn’t a bunch of “cast-offs.” If fucking Radiohead would have put that record out, you would have loved it. And as far as “artistic retreat” goes—I’m sure by that you mean that they suddenly began selling a shit ton of records and concert tickets again, after being written off as a bunch of has-beens. Yeah man, that Vertigo song was complete balls. Call it whatever you want, but at least U2 has managed to maintain a degree of relevance with their fans. Few musicians who’ve been at it for as long can say the same thing.

Comment #139: Hippie Killer  on  10/02  at  02:51 AM

I think U2 were actually a really good band at certain points. Boy is pretty soulful earnest post-punk as is War. As far as post-punk they were never as fantastic as the hugely underrated Echo and the Bunnymen, the Smiths, Joy Division, the Fall, Josef K, Orange Juice, the Cure, Wire, the Chameleons or many other great bands of that moment but they had their own distinct thing going on that was pretty good (The Sound and the Comsat Angels were more similiar to U2 then any post-punk that I can think of and both of those bands were good but maybe not quite as good as U2). But, yeah, everyone hated them because they got the attention that so many better bands deserved. But they were still putting out good stuff.
I think Actung Baby is their best album and the one most deserving of attention as far as it being a great album. They finally give in to what at heart they really are and wanted to be ( a pop group writing great pop songs) and experiment with a bunch of new things that vastly improves their sound (thanks Brian Eno!). It also has the delightful energy of one of the most earnest rock bands of all time embracing irony. Zoo Station, Even Better then the Real Thing, The Fly, Mysterious Ways are all really great songs.
Their music now is terrible though.

Comment #140: AdamN  on  10/02  at  03:02 AM

I remain amused at how the word “hipster” has become an all-purpose insult.

I remain unclear on what a “hipster” is, really. I always think of skinny jeans and maybe those emo thin little scarves and then I run out of ideas. And like, cigarettes and local garage bands or something. I don’t even know. But then again, I mostly like those whiny, pissy white-boy-bands (“people suck and I’m totally cooler than my ex-girlfriend and now I will say something poetic about rain at night”) so I don’t really have a dog in the “what’s cool” fight. I lost that fight ages ago! :p Oh, and I like the opening and ending theme songs from kids’ anime shows. I’m clearly cultured as hell.

Comment #141: Bagelsan  on  10/02  at  03:22 AM

Minor dissent on “Stand By Your Man.”  No way you’d call it feminist but wow the lyrics are amazingly condescending.  And darkly ironic.

Comment #142: figleaf  on  10/02  at  04:31 AM

Amanda, I love you, but there’s nothing worse than listening to a hipper-than-thou music snob going on a your-band-sucks binge.

Comment #143: Johnny Pez  on  10/02  at  07:13 AM

I f’ing hate hispters, and the ironic hipsters (are there any other kind i wonder?) are the worst of all.  Screw them.  I’m 40, I have everything from U2 to Eddie Vetter’s incomparable Masters of War (and I always get a big rush when he ends with “and i’ll stand at your grave and make sure that you’re DEAD), to Coldplay’s Viva la Vida, which I enjoy horrifying hipsters by singing particularly loudly to “BUT THAT WAS WHEN I RULED THE WORLD”, to Stevie Wonder to Beyonce, to nearly everything Alanis has ever done, to Greenday, Springsteen and Bocelli, and I don’t give a fuck.

I ain’t edgy.

Now, let’s compare libraries.

Comment #144: JennyLI  on  10/02  at  08:59 AM

“I think Actung Baby is their best album and the one most deserving of attention as far as it being a great album. They finally give in to what at heart they really are and wanted to be ( a pop group writing great pop songs) and experiment with a bunch of new things that vastly improves their sound (thanks Brian Eno!). It also has the delightful energy of one of the most earnest rock bands of all time embracing irony. Zoo Station, Even Better then the Real Thing, The Fly, Mysterious Ways are all really great songs. “

Yep.  I’m old enough to remember when Actung Baby came out and though we didn’t call ourselves “hipsters” then, nor I think, were we particularly “ironic” man I spent some f’ing great weekends in the Hamptons dancing on the beach to Mysterious Ways.

Comment #145: JennyLI  on  10/02  at  09:01 AM

Eh- I think people who rag on the musical taste of others aren’t all that different than the women who look for cellulite on stars to feel better about themselves.  It’s just another way of telling yourself that your taste is better than the taste of losers who don’t agree with you.  Those people just aren’t as discerning as you.  We all know how it works.

It’s an illusion, a fantasy that lets you elevate yourself above the masses.  With the bonus of your getting to define anyone who disagrees as being among the masses of those who have bad taste, while knowing nothing more of their musical taste than that they disagree with your pronouncements.

I saw U2 in 1981, and have been through all sorts of changes of opinions of them through the years.  At this point, 30 years later, I’m impressed and full of respect for their staying power. And I’ll admit to thinking The Edge was totally hot when I saw them.  Of course, he was about 5 feet from me the whole time, and he was intense on stage.

Comment #146: drachonfire  on  10/02  at  09:49 AM

1) Meh. You probably don’t like Journey either.

2) The Evil Hipsters would be an awesome name for a rock band. Hipsters would love it.

3) I own every Hootie and the Blowfish album. And I’m proud of it. Suck it. tongue laugh

Comment #147: Jeff  on  10/02  at  11:08 AM

Pop is actually U2’s second-best album, behind Achtung Baby.

That is all I have to say about that.

Comment #148: Auguste  on  10/02  at  12:20 PM

As for “hipster music haters suck”, how long have you guys been here? Because, um.

Comment #149: Auguste  on  10/02  at  12:21 PM

How I feel about Amanda’s music is kinda how I feel about my mom’s religion: I love her anyways. :D

Comment #150: Bagelsan  on  10/02  at  12:34 PM

I like Loverboy’s Greatest Hits collection.  Not because they’re great, relevant musicians or anything (far from it!), but because they’re fun.  There has to be room in the world for fun.  U2 started off in my awareness as that band that sang about Northern Ireland a lot and had that screeching, razor-sharp (like fingernails on the chalkboard) guitar sound.  Once Northern Ireland got resolved, they moved on to sing about other things, and they also discovered that they could make music that was fun.  Mysterious Ways is fun.  It’s not Sunday Bloody Sunday or Bullet the Blue Sky.  If that’s the difference between “having a soul” and “having no soul,” I think I’d rather have no soul and at least be fun.

U2 has a soul.  Souls do evolve, however.

I think Madonna’s “Ray of Light” is one of the best collections (can we really call them “albums” anymore?) ever made.  Does Madonna have soul?  Who cares?  Cue that baby up.

Comment #151: liberalrob  on  10/02  at  01:04 PM

It really is all a matter of taste.

U2 objectively suck. QMotherfuckingED!

Comment #152: PhysioProf  on  10/02  at  03:33 PM

I think the issue here is the word “safe,” which in this context would seem to be a moral judgement, not just an aesthetic one. People who are not at all “safe” - that is, they are not complacent about the authoritarian social order, might naturally bristle at the notion that the music they like, and by extension, they themselves, are “safe.”

Comment #153: Theron  on  10/02  at  08:29 PM

Hey relax there, ‘hippiekiller’. I said Pop was assembled around a bunch of cast offs FROM Zooropa, as Bill Flanagan shows in ‘U2 At The End of the World’. It’s not exactly a secret. For the record, I think U2’s early 90’s output was on the whole pretty great - if nothing else they had the balls to engage with what was going on in the world politically and technologically in a way barely anyone else even attempted.

As for the alleged coke thing, it’s one of those things which has been bandied about a lot on a word-of-mouth level. Whether you believe that or not is up to you, though its ubiquity in showbiz circles, combined with Bono’s subsequent ego-ridden behaviour and interviews increasingly dedicated to bizarre, incoherent non sequiturs, lead me to fall on the guilty side.

And artistic retreat? Simple. In the aftermath of Pop’s critical and commercial blip they stopped trying to come up with new ideas and retreated back to the safety of an overproduced version of their older sound. It’s not unusual - REM and the Stones both did similar, except they didn’t pretend they were still artistically relevant. You can leave the ‘you only hate them because they sell records’ whining at home, it’s a pathetic argument and patently untrue.  Does it matter that U2 suck? Only if it matters whether public figures are interesting or have anything of worth to say.

Comment #154: Stubborn Kind of Fellow  on  10/02  at  09:28 PM

I have thought about this a bit more:
I think it’s really worth re-listening to U2’s first album Boy which is a really great post-punk album. Check out the amazing song “A Day without Me” which has some amazing guitar and drumming and a distinct original sound in the landscape of post-punk. Someone up above mentioned “Two Hearts Beat as One” from War, another amazing song which sounds like Gang of Four covering a Motown hit with Ian McCulloch doing vocals.
I think U2’s cardinal sin for a lot of hipsters is that they married post-punk to arena rock. That is already evident as a strategy on Boy and it is something that is pretty strongly against the values of many punks, post-punks, and much indie rock. But they did do it well and as much as it influenced a lot of crap, it also influenced scores of other great or decent bands from all over the spectrum of indie music from Radiohead, the Stone Roses, the Verve, the Walkmen, Twilight Sad, or the Arcade Fire.
R.E.M. also could be said to have done much the same thing in marrying an American indie aesthetic (which they almost single-handedly created on Murmur and Reckoning) to the more arena rockish alternative sound of Document and Green. (The most important transition album from jangle guitar pop R.E.M. to the later sound is the massively under-rated Fables of the Reconstruction). I think R.E.M. still get approval from a lot of hipsters because they were just a better band for a longer time then U2, more important and influential, and also because Michael Stipe is far less better at embarrassing himself then Bono. But most big music dorks that I know at least will admit to U2 having been a great band at one point or another and/or liking some of their stuff quite a lot.
I think another parallel case to think about is Duran Duran who committed the cardinal sin of marrying new wave/post-punk to disco to the minds of many punks as well as being (gasp) popular. At this point most music aficionados I know totally love Rio, as they should because its fucking amazing, but I think there was a period there were people only admitted to liking it ironically. But as dance and synth have so deeply infiltrated and mixed with indie rock (Of Montreal, Cut Copy, Junior Boys, M83, LCD Soundsystem, the Knife, Animal Collective, Hercules and Love Affair) it was only a matter of time before Duran Duran got the respect they deserved for that album from serious music dorks. Like Amanda has said of U2 popularizing and mainstreaming the much better Joy Division, one could easily say that Duran Duran totally lifted much of their style from the great two last records of Japan or other New Romantics, but to me at least that doesn’t make Rio any less of a great album. Both U2 and Duran Duran took the sound of those great challenging underground bands and made them work in a pop setting, which in turn did something else interesting if one is open enough to enjoy on its own terms.

Comment #155: AdamN  on  10/02  at  09:48 PM

I find this thread amusing, because many of the comments appear to assume that U2’s audience is incapable of a)criticizing the band or b)enjoying more challenging music. As if you can’t hold two contradictory thoughts in your head at the same time: Bono can be tiresome, and at the same time, completely enjoyable. I can attend a big arena/stadium show and genuinely enjoy it, and be the same person who attends a tiny gig of about 100 people put on in an art gallery by someone like Quintron. It is possible to enjoy mainstream and more difficult music at the same time.

I agree that they retreated creatively after Pop (which, btw, wasn’t widely critically panned at the time - go back and read the reviews - it was the tour that sunk them). I pretty much skip over most of U2’s post-Pop output, and think Bono’s lyrics can be painful (especially post-Pop), and at the same time, still find their live shows an incredibly moving communal experience.

I can criticize Bono’s often simplistic and bombastic grasp of international policy, and at the same time, admire them for managing to stay together for thirty years while for the most part not being assholes. Whatever you think of their output of the last ten years, they’re not on their 5th reunion concert, milking nostalgia, and I respect that.

Comment #156: amonitrate  on  10/03  at  01:06 PM

Look, if you gave a shout-out to Pelosi at a Bay-Area concert you would get a mixed reaction.  We have seriously mixed views of her, inside and outside of her district.  Inside, she’s popular, yes, but she scores enough moneyed and conservative votes to beat out her liberal rivals.  And then those liberals either vote party line or don’t really have a choice.  Outside her district, she doesn’t listen to us, so she’s not terribly popular, either.  Her and Feinstein.

Tho, if she gets a strong public option through, that might change.  Remember, Feinstein has supported leaving it out.

Comment #157: Crissa  on  10/04  at  03:29 AM

Ugh. Reading about how you think U2 are soulless and ergo people who don’t find them soulless must automatically be soulless conservative overpaid Bud-drinking men who are (also!) unadventurous in the sack and then saying: “Hey, it’s my right to sound like a Hipster music snob… that’s what we hipster music snobs do!” reminds me of those assholes who “apologize” for their assholery by saying: “What can I do? I’m an asshole!”

Comment #158: Destructor  on  10/07  at  12:49 AM
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