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Next entry: Comparisons Previous entry: Not quite a stripper pole for your toddler, but close

Using people’s personal angers against them

I’m in a sympathetic mood, because I just finished listening to Mat Johnson on a podcast talking about the diehard Clinton supporters who have clearly projected their own struggles onto Hillary Clinton and are taking her defeat in the primary as a referendum on their very right to be in the public sphere.  Johnson made the point that he felt the same way as an Obama supporter in a lot of ways—-specifically, the chance to look at the candidate and relate in a way that’s previously been denied you—-and to be deprived that at what no doubt seems the last minute has got to be frustrating.  He also makes some good points about the dynamics of the race, and how Obama’s campaign was privileged by the slow build, and Clinton’s campaign turned into a nightmare as they lost their grasp, and these things, independent of identity politics, framed the nastiness of the primary.  He also makes points that resonated with me about why, if Clinton’s loss seems so personal to some women, it just doesn’t to me, which is complex and not worth going into here.

So, it’s with sympathy that I read this piece by Erica Jong (hat tip) about how personal the whole loss feels to some women.  I am sympathetic, for instance, to this, even as I disagree with it.

This is not to imply that Hillary Clinton is faultless—far from it. But it’s clear that the faults we tolerate and even overlook in men, we see as glaring in women.

In most women’s personal lives, this makes a lot of sense. It’s why women are probably so much harder to get to open up about their opinions than men.  Most women I know tend to relate to the sense that if a man is wrong, he’s just wrong on that one thing, but if a woman is wrong, it easily turns into a referendum on her entire being, her right to speak at all, and perhaps the rights of all women to say anything.  We’ve all had men shame us into silence with this tactic. 

But Jong’s wrong.  She’s projecting something that tends to work more on a personal level onto a public figure, and her examples show the fallacy in her reasoning.

McCain can confuse Sunnis and Shiites and nobody blinks. Bush can admit to his press secretary that he outed a secret agent while claiming that he’d fire any aide who did so—and the press sleeps.

She stumbled not so much onto a sexist double standard as a partisan one.  Is there any doubt that if Obama mixed up Sunnis and Shiites like McCain did that it would be front page news?  Evidence that the narrative started by Clinton but carried on by McCain—-that Obama is “inexperienced”—-is true? 

Clinton made a big, whopping mistake in her Iraq war vote.  The voters have a right to start standing up against milquetoast Democrats who meekly do what the Republicans instruct them to do.  At the end of the day, that has nothing to do with gender.  For huge swaths of the party, Clinton has become the symbol of just such Democratic weakness.  Interestingly, another female leader has become the symbol of Democratic backbone on this all-important issue, and like Obama, her career has done well because of it. 

This primary pulled the party, ever so slightly and ever so gently, to the left just a teeny bit.  That’s progress, and the media-driven noise has eclipsed that fact.  Not to say that race and gender weren’t big issues in this campaign, but it’s seemed from the beginning to me that the lack of a white guy in the contest should have really been cause for reasonable people to call that a draw and move on.  It’s obvious why the media and the campaigns decided to stoke that flame anyway, because race and gender, unlike a lot of other contentious but important issues in elections, hit so damn close to home.  People take it personally, tempers rise, and reason flies out the door.  I’m not saying that the anger isn’t real.  In fact, the opposite.  It’s so real it becomes all-encompassing, and eclipses other issues that are real, but maybe a little more distant.  Issues like the partisan double standard, or the Iraq war. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 07:32 PM • (53) Comments

if a woman is wrong, it easily turns into a referendum on her entire being, her right to speak at all, and perhaps the rights of all women to say anything.  We’ve all had men shame us into silence with this tactic.

I think this is one of the key reasons that Clinton supporters have taken this all so personally.  I feel that, as a rather enlightened feminist, I can look at Clinton’s campaign, which was, frankly a hot mess, and find a thousand faults, but that doesn’t at all mean that I don’t look up to Clinton any more as an inspiring figure, or that I think she’s a bad person, or that I think her loss taints either her entire character or the collective character of women in politics or women as a group.  However, almost every time I say something negative about Clinton’s campaign, I get the sense that my interlocutor is still making that ideological jump on my behalf, and assuming that “Hillary was wrong to trust Mark Penn” = Hillary is evil = Women should get back in the kitchen because we don’t belong in the public sphere.

Comment #1: The Opoponax  on  06/09  at  08:33 PM

something hits me:

Her follower seems to be able to distort her decision making a lot, her criteria of deciding is nothing more than few identity politics parameters.  (eg. gotta look tough, so they don’t call me weak woman. Gotta keep running for the sisters. )

Imagine the drama during her presidency. she has to prove endlessly what a woman president is about. Instead of running a country, she would be another Eva Peron redo. Endless show what woman should and should not do.

Comment #2: Eurantia  on  06/09  at  08:35 PM

Eurantia, please.  She’d try too hard to prove herself?  That’s just as sexist as saying “She’s not capable of being president because she’s a woman.”

And no, identity politics is not “her criteria of deciding.”  She made policy and campaign decisions just as any other politician would.  She had a lot of good ideas.  And she would have run the US really, really well.

And I’m a freaking Obama supporter.  Jesus.

Comment #3: Caroline  on  06/09  at  09:01 PM

I agree, Amanda, both as to the sympathy and as to your ultimate judgment.  Voting for the Iraq War is not remotely comparable to making a gaffe, even an ignorant one, and many of us who voted for Obama also voted for Dean over Kerry (who like Clinton had the advantage of “experience”) for the same reason.

Comment #4: Fred Vincy  on  06/09  at  09:33 PM

sure, whatever it is imagine:

1. I can’t bail out of Iraq leaving the demise of Maliki and Iran take over, they will call me “woman”

2. Imagine situation like Somalia or Serbia. What do you think she will do? Pull out and lick the wound? Or stick it all the way? What if Fox News were to start calling her name? (eg. Look at that woman, she mess up everything.)

My point, she created problem by way of overusing identity politics. She plays it to gain supporters, and her supporter wants something in return. She has to prove and win every argument that says woman is weak. Regardless if the said argument is true or not.

You can’t deny the status of woman is not on her mind, since in her closing speech she makes a big case outlining her accomplishment in term of “woman”.

Contrast this to Pelosi trip to Syria: people simply said “what the eff are you talking about?”, when Fox news start calling her name.

Comment #5: Eurantia  on  06/09  at  09:39 PM

All of this is simply to deflect the blame from where it properly rests:

She spent too much
She didn’t surround herself with competent people
She failed to manage her campaign
She turned to race baiting when all else failed
She massively over-blew her experience and got caught in some whoppers
She failed to properly select people to represent her - from Mark Penn on down to Harriet Racist

None of this is evidence of leadership or executive prowess necessary to be a good president.  You can’t just sit on a throne - you have to manage a budget, hire good people, manage your image, and run a tight ship.  That is the contest in a nutshell.

Comment #6: Ms Kate  on  06/09  at  10:27 PM

It has struck me during the end of the campaign that Clinton was doing everything in her power to conflate the Clinton cause with the cause of feminism, or at least the feminism of a certain cadre of feminists (who usually conflate their cadre with feminism itself too).  Clinton and her supporters tried awfully hard to convince us that this was a referendum on the public role of women.  Not that the media wouldn’t have been into it otherwise, but Clinton and her surrogates tried to use it to her advantage in a way that was pretty darn divisive.

For instance, on that NPR show To the Point today, the host Warren Olney had a panel discussion on where Clinton and Obama stand now.  One of his guests, Allida Black of Women Count PAC (whose sole purpose is to be pro-Clinton), argued that Clinton is simply not interchangeable with another female VP choice and that she would be deeply offended if Obama chose a different woman as a veep.  I understand their loyalty, but for jeebus’ sake, if it’s only Clinton that counts, then name your PAC Clinton Counts, not Women Count.  Has anyone heard of a group that is advocating for a female veep, regardless of their last name?

It seems to me that this kind of tactic would only exacerbate the dynamic that Jong pointed out because it turns our judgment of one campaign into a referendum on an entire gender.  Clinton tried to turn it to her advantage, but it’s not a dynamic to exploit for personal political gain.

Comment #7: Loneoak  on  06/09  at  10:36 PM

She had a lot of good ideas.  And she would have run the US really, really well.

As another Obama supporter, I gotta say I really disagree with this. Regardless of whether it’s for the reasons Eurantia is speculating or not, Clinton has shown nothing but hawkish tendencies, voting for Lieberman’s resolution designating the Iranian Revolutionary Guard a terrorist organization in the midst of the neocons grasping for any rationale to go to war with them, and on the fifth anniversary of the invasion of Iraq she gave an infuriating speech about how we gave the Iraqi people the “precious gift of freedom”, and now it’s time for them to figure out what to do with it. I was really worried about her becoming President, though she’s obviously better than 98% of Republicans and god knows would have certainly a saner foreign policy than a pure neocon like John McCain, but this stuff was a big deal, and I feel likewith the nomination of Obama we really dodged a bullet in not having to choose between neocon and neocon-lite in the general election because I’m not sure what another four years of that kind of foreign policy would do to this country or, for that matter, the rest of the world.

Comment #8: Aman  on  06/09  at  10:40 PM

This is just a guess but it sure seems to me like “Eurantia” is actually the recently-banned “squashed.” If the moderators can verify this, I’d recommend banning “Eurantia” as well.

If I’m wrong, though, my recommendation to Eurantia is: Hey! Stop acting like that jerk “squashed”!

Comment #9: late to the party  on  06/09  at  10:48 PM

Personally, I have a funny feeling that ever since squashed was banned, he/she has been sock-puppet bombing us.  Quite frankly, not a few semi-anonymous new commenters have cropped up who sound a hell of a lot like squashed.

Comment #10: The Opoponax  on  06/09  at  11:05 PM

The Opoponax, Amanda or Pam could probably tell by checking IP addresses or whatever, but I assure you that I’m not squashed even if I do share his/her inability to properly edit my posts before hitting the Blaspheme button.  And I’m not exactly a new poster, though I usually lurk; I even got into a kinda-argument with you before on old Pandagon. But maybe you weren’t even referring to me, and I’m just paranoid and/or self-obsessed.

Comment #11: Aman  on  06/09  at  11:21 PM

What I don’t understand is how so many Hillary-supporters found it impossible that a woman might vote against Ms. Clinton simply because of believing that Hillary is just plain incompetent.

I didn’t like Hillary due to her triangulation, the impression she gave that she never opened her mouth without vetting any statement past a hundred policy advisors, and overall, the sense of entitlement.  Dear God, that sense of entitlement, that she somehow magically DESERVED the Presidency after all her hard work (putting up with Bill’s shenanigans and tomcatting?) and was somehow going to be magically wafted to candidacy during a process that took on more the trappings of a coronation than anything else.  Then Obama showed up, demonstrated that she had an actual fight on her hands, and Hillary’s game suddenly went all to pieces.

Which leads to the second point: competence.  Neither Barack Obama nor Hillary Clinton have long years acting as elected representatives.  So what I looked at was how the candidates handled themselves under reversals, under pressure, and under unforseen circumstances.  Unfortunately, based on this yardstick, Hillary Clinton doesn’t show up at all well.  She does not seem to prepare for problems or unexpected happenings.  There was no Plan B for after Iowa, after which she had already burnt through most of the money gathered.

In short, I have no reason to believe that a Hillary Clinton presidency would be handled with any more competence than her run for office: incompetently.

Comment #12: grumpy realist  on  06/09  at  11:30 PM

Aman: we were talking about “Eurantia,” so no worries.

Comment #13: late to the party  on  06/09  at  11:50 PM

Yeah, it’s really tough to be Nancy Pelosi, Congresswoman representing San Francisco. That Iraq War vote must have kept her up for two whole minutes.

Comment #14: Roxanne  on  06/09  at  11:57 PM

Ha, somebody else spotted it: “Eurantia” is “squashed”, the ignorant banned shitehead.  Hey s, master the fucking language and maybe you won’t stick out so much.

Comment #15: Eric, Rejector of Memes  on  06/10  at  12:24 AM

Eric, maybe I missed something, but I doubt whatever squashed did to get banned was half as offensive as that vile post. Nothing warranted that.

Comment #16: Aman  on  06/10  at  12:33 AM

What drives me crazy is the flattening.  I wasn’t permitted to vote in the primaries; I would have voted for Clinton (as did the majority of my state) and I will vote for Obama in the fall, and I hope he wins.  My excitement at the prospect of a more progressive president and my sour feelings about the ugliness of the campaign are complex.

So it makes me unhappy to read posts wondering what those angry white women are so angry about.  There’s an unneccessary us-them dynamic working there:  those angry white women are just overreacting, taking it personally, while we white women and others who are not angry are taking a more enlightened view.  It makes me unhappy that any post on either Clinton or Obama turns into an extension of the “who should get to be president” debate, and to read comments therein ennumerating all of the things Clinton did wrong, thus damning herself.  I think both of these responses miss the point.

There is plenty to be angry about after this primary.  It does not include the fact Obama won the nomination, or that Clinton didn’t, or that either deserved what they got or didn’t.  On the other hand, that death by a thousand cuts (in Jong’s words) happened, it was documented on this blog and more extensively on others (like Shakesville), and if we flatten all that out by othering all those women taking it personally or pretending that Clinton’s own flaws erase the sexism that bubbled up in this campaign, then we haven’t learned anything.

Comment #17: Tanglethis  on  06/10  at  01:18 AM

The other assumption I see too much of is that everyone was voting “against” someone. I wasn’t. At the beginning of the primary season I was undecided because I thought we had three or four good candidates. When it came down to Clinton vs Obama I thought we had two good candidates. I ended up voting for Obama, but that doesn’t mean I thought Clinton is a bad person. If things had gone differently, she would have been a good nominee and a good President. Maybe we’ll find out someday.

Comment #18: Matthew Austern  on  06/10  at  01:27 AM

it’s seemed from the beginning to me that the lack of a white guy in the contest should have really been cause for reasonable people to call [race and gender issues] a draw and move on.

Ummm . . . not sure I like this.

It sounds like you’re saying that as long as the Obama campaign was equally as sexist as Hillary’s was racist, then it’s OK. Or maybe that Obama can’t possibly be very seriously sexist, and Hillary can’t possibly be very seriously racist, because neither of them is a white guy, so the issues can be overlooked.

I can’t believe you mean either of those things. But what did that mean?

Certainly we expect Obama and Hillary to be more responsive to race and gender, respectively, than most white guys, and we at least hope that carries over to them being more responsive to gender and race (also respectively) as well. The suspicion that every awkward phrase or odd locution is really some sort of offensive slur or code word doesn’t need to be there with them, as much as it does with many others - or so we hope. But it’s a far cry from “not presumptively as bad as most others” to “worth ignoring entirely”. It’s possible to believe that the various offense-takers on both sides were on too much of an habitual hair-trigger in this latest campaign - but I find it hard to assume a priori that they’re wrong in every case.

Comment #19: Kevin T. Keith  on  06/10  at  01:59 AM

I feel sick to stomach when I hear women my mother’s age saying things like “But losing my last chance to see a woman in the White House feels like shit.”

Hillary Clinton is not the Messiah. She’s not the only woman capable of running for president. These women are in their fifties and sixties. If they live to be 80, they have a good 4 or 5 more chances to see a woman run.

What does it say about our character if defeat of one defeats us all?

Comment #20: sazai  on  06/10  at  02:25 AM

Most women I know tend to relate to the sense that if a man is wrong, he’s just wrong on that one thing, but if a woman is wrong, it easily turns into a referendum on her entire being, her right to speak at all, and perhaps the rights of all women to say anything.  We’ve all had men shame us into silence with this tactic.

At the risk of sidestepping the Clinton-Obama stuff…how much of this is self fulfilling?
E.g. there’s always some of this: http://xkcd.com/385/, but how much do women, and not the men around them, sustain this attitude of risk aversion because of their belief that any mistakes will be overemphasized?

In my group at work, there are two women (I’m in a technical field), both of whom refuse to assert themselves in the presence of the boss.  Now, one of them is convinced that the boss has issues with women, but from what I’ve seen he’s just dismissive and inconsiderate (in a weird, passive agressive way) to just about everyone.  And I don’t know how much their outcomes would change interacting with him if they were more agressive at pushing their issues.  I’m pretty sure that they believe that they’d get bad outcomes, but I felt stepped on by the boss until I’d been there about a half a year and a former team member gave me some insight into the boss’ quirks.

I guess I worry that once you’ve accepted the context that any mistake you make will be used to grind you down, you lose the mental confidence to be someone who’ll take appropriate risks and be assertive enough to grab the conversation, grab the agenda, or grab the main chance.

Comment #21: mhoram  on  06/10  at  03:23 AM

Yeah, it’s really tough to be Nancy Pelosi, Congresswoman representing San Francisco. That Iraq War vote must have kept her up for two whole minutes.

The point wasn’t her 2002 war vote, Roxanne—it’s how she moved the entire Democratic caucus to the left on the war as House Democratic Leader, just as she had on Social Security privatization.  That took us to November 2006 and made her Speaker.

Comment #22: Neil the Ethical Werewolf  on  06/10  at  04:10 AM

All of this is simply to deflect the blame from where it properly rests:
Ms Kate on 06/09 at 09:27 PM

If there are several big blunders that I notice directly related to sexism and big strategy, how she handles it, the backlash:

1. media/blame media.
She really loses the media after David Shuster made about Chelsea Clinton being “pimped out” on behalf of her mother’s campaign. Her trying to oust Shuster made a lot of TV talking heads went negative on her. I think this was near the peak of “she was being pushed out because the media is sexist” (after she lost 11-0)

2. The don’t quit (fight it for the sisters)
After losing Super Tuesday and 11-0, a look at the math will tell how impossible it is.
But the strategy was a) Super Delegates game changer b) aim to show majority vote for Veep spot/the Kerry-Edward gambit c) fight it to the convention floor if narrow.

but this route turns out to be very expensive. $30m in the hole. With lost of party insider, Clinton would need to sell a lot of porks to pay that debt and win next senate election. (Her last easy senate race was costing her $30m. and that’s with full backing of big money, with the understanding she will be the next president)

And entire party also recognize floor fight should be avoided at all cost, because no nominee can win GE that way.

——————

Mrs. Clinton recognized the odds. But she was being encouraged by emotional supporters along the rope lines and came to believe she had an obligation to stay in, aides said. At every stop, someone would say, “Don’t you quit!” — and aides said she internalized the message. “The psychology of it all is very complicated,” one said. “I’m sure you don’t want to slow down because once you do, you start to think about things.”

Mrs. Edwards would not go that far. But the disaffection of other women over the pressure on Mrs. Clinton to step aside only stiffened her determination to press on. She received angry messages on her BlackBerry from friends like Ellen R. Malcolm, the president of Emily’s List, an abortion rights group that supports like-minded women seeking election. Ms. Malcolm said she vented in an e-mail message about how the news media were unfairly diminishing Mrs. Clinton’s victories.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/08/us/politics/08recon.html?pagewanted=4&_r=2


It is how a candidate handle the backlash of a strategy and pressure of key vocal supporters that makes a leader. 

Obama certainly has few shaky moments too.

Comment #23: Eurantia  on  06/10  at  07:38 AM

Personally, I have a funny feeling that ever since squashed was banned, he/she has been sock-puppet bombing us.  Quite frankly, not a few semi-anonymous new commenters have cropped up who sound a hell of a lot like squashed.
The Opoponax on 06/09 at 10:05 PM

I post exactly the same rate as before, the same spot, and even saying exact same thing. I think several people think they can play game to finally insist on one person-one handle rule. that much is obvious.

I for one think that should be encourage a) open up the inner rightwing (obviously we got higher frequency of pro wingnut voices by steady posters, their faux wingnut opinion don’t even jibe with larger wingnut scene.) b) It takes a lot of energy to play character and carry consistent argument. (most here breakdown after 3-4 moves and scatter pretty much after 2 days.)

So it’s not that hard figuring out who is playing and who has valid opinion worth considering. Give it few more weeks, I can tell who is who even if they post in swahili.

basic Sherry Turkle-esque scene.

Comment #24: Sherry Turkle  on  06/10  at  07:55 AM

Hillary Clinton is not the Messiah. She’s not the only woman capable of running for president. These women are in their fifties and sixties. If they live to be 80, they have a good 4 or 5 more chances to see a woman run.

Not really.  Let’s take a hypothetical second wave feminist, who joined the feminist movement in 1970 at age 30.  When push comes to shove, she’ll support a Democrat over a Republican in almost all circumstances. 

She is currently 68.  She won’t see a woman as president this year.

If Obama wins, as he is likely to do, he’ll be running for reelection in 2012.  She’ll be supporting him, even if the Republicans field a woman.  So she won’t see a woman for president then.  She’ll be 72. 

If Obama wins the reelection in 2012, and has a man as his vice president, that man would be running in 2016.  Again, she’ll wind up supporting him, even if the Republicans field a woman. She’ll be 76. 

And if he wins, he’ll run for reelection in 2020.  She’d likely, still, support him over a Republican woman, unless there has been a massive shift in Republican policy.  She’ll be 80.  Currently, the US census places the average life expectancy for women at around 80 years. 

If this president has a woman as VP, she’d be the likely candidate in 2024.  If not, the same cycle continues. 

It would take either the Democratic candidate loosing at some point, or a deliberate decision by a vice president not to run (like Cheney this year), opening the next election cycle to all runners, or Obama appointing a woman as VP, for her to see a female Democratic candidate. 

If every primary were truly open to all, this hypothetical feminist would have several more chances in her life to see a woman as president.  But since a current president or vice president is almost certain to get their party’s nomination, if they want it, her chances are greatly narrowed.

Which is a really lousy situation to contemplate. 

One can easily argue that it is a problem that the system is so weighted towards letting a current president or vice president win the nomination for reelection, and that the system should be changed.  But it’s the system we live in, and it would be quite a fight (in addition to all the other things feminists fight for) to try to get that system to change. 

In this system, odds are good that this was the last chance in the lifetime of many second wave feminists - or that they’d have to look to having another four years of a Republican president, just to get a second chance.

Comment #25: Ursula L  on  06/10  at  08:43 AM

The point wasn’t her 2002 war vote, Roxanne—it’s how she moved the entire Democratic caucus to the left on the war as House Democratic Leader, just as she had on Social Security privatization.  That took us to November 2006 and made her Speaker.

C’mon. Is that really what happened? Or did the Democratic caucus “move to the left” because the war became unpopular and pols go where pols usually go? Is she not the speaker because she’s the most awesomest Democratic party fundraiser since Tony Coehlo?

Comment #26: Roxanne  on  06/10  at  09:12 AM

She is currently 68.  She won’t see a woman as president this year.
Ursula L on 06/10 at 07:43 AM

I seriously doubt Hillary can be president then unless she can build a superior electorate strategy. That sort of thing only happens every other decade.

After this lost, Hillary will not have too many die hard DLC/Clintonistas inside the party anymore. That means she won’t set the rule (primary rules, money rule, staffing rule)  I seriously doubt a democrat president + democratic congress will not redraw the electoral map. And when it is redrawn it will be to the incumbent advantage.

Hillary couldn’t even device a winning strategy that covers beyond super Tuesday. Her campaign was flatlining in 11 races. She has zero ground game up until Texas where she slowly rebuild and fix the mistake.  What if the primary calendar is changed once again. With post super Tuesday landscape completely re-arranged.

Remember this primary calendar is “stacked” for Hillary’s advantage. It is designed with tight opening followed by carry over momentum, big money/big opening punch wins. There is no breathing room for rookie. It was made for Clinton machine by Clinton machine.

That’s just rule & bylaws side.

Imagine the technological change 10 years form now. It won’t be blogging, social networking or Youtube, I can tell you that. Even Obama will be too old and too slow to fight the new kids with few nifty tricks under their sleeve.

What if everybody can do social dynamic modeling, what if everybody has the power of facebook inside their cellphone.  What if everybody carry around GPS aware low cost cellphone and wireless connection cost almost nothing? ... etc.

That scenario alone will change the dynamic of “polling” and decision making rate. Everything will be 20 times faster.  Ten years from now, the kids probably would be able to model the entire electorate movement from 2008 race for lunch time project.

Comment #27: Isthara  on  06/10  at  09:38 AM

Just to bring the evidence out of the linked post, here’s something from the Washington Post in < a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/06/AR2005120601707.html”>December 2005</a>:

“Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee Chairman Rahm Emanuel (Ill.) and Rep. Steny H. Hoyer (Md.), the second-ranking House Democratic leader, have told colleagues that Pelosi’s recent endorsement of a speedy withdrawal, combined with her claim that more than half of House Democrats support her position, could backfire on the party, congressional sources said.”

Roxanne, don’t forget that this is the timid and terrified Democratic Party we’re talking about.  These guys were living in fear of the Republican Party on foreign policy.  As late as December 2005, they didn’t think leaving Iraq was a political winner.  Pelosi was pushing them the right way as Hoyer and Emanuel were pushing them the wrong way.  She got her way, and that’s a big part of why 2006 turned out so beautifully. 

she’s the most awesomest Democratic party fundraiser since Tony Coehlo?

What are you talking about?  If you’re looking for the superstar fundraiser, that’d be Hoyer, whose saving grace is that when he sells us out to corporate interests he gets the best price.  Or maybe Emanuel, who actually was in charge of a lot of DCCC fundraising in 2006.  Schumer, on the Senate side, is pretty spectacular too.  Pelosi’s certainly not a bad fundraiser, and SF gives her a good base to fundraise from.  But if that’s what made you speaker, the gavel would probably be in Hoyer’s hands, and certainly not hers.

Comment #28: Neil the Ethical Werewolf  on  06/10  at  09:47 AM

I promise to preview from now on.
I promise to preview from now on.
I promise to preview from now on…

Comment #29: Neil the Ethical Werewolf  on  06/10  at  09:53 AM

If Obama wins the reelection in 2012, and has a man as his vice president, that man would be running in 2016.

Unless Obama does what the talking heads I heard on MSNBC last night want him to do and choose an “established,” older, white man as his VP. Apparently (and I’m sure no one here has noticed) but Obama is both young and black. So, in order to “balance” the ticket he has to find a VP that is old and white. And presumably male since having two minorities on the ticket would be too much for the electorate to take.

If he does this, then in 2012 he can choose a successor VP since he will have proven himself as a president and won’t need the support of an old white man. That new VP could be a woman, who would then be the Dem choice in 2016. Lots of dominoes falling in the right direction, but until we know the VP choice, all is possible.

Comment #30: Vir Modestus  on  06/10  at  10:42 AM

“So it makes me unhappy to read posts wondering what those angry white women are so angry about.  There’s an unneccessary us-them dynamic working there:  those angry white women are just overreacting, taking it personally”

Cause god knows nobody else ever uses that arguing tactic against women in general on any other topic.  But I s’pose when it’s women using it against women, that’s somehow…different…(sigh)

Comment #31: Lisa KS  on  06/10  at  10:54 AM

But maybe you weren’t even referring to me, and I’m just paranoid and/or self-obsessed.

Not referring to you, btw.  I’m talking about all the comments that match squashed’s style to an uncanny degree—lack of fluency with the English language, copious linkage to irrelevant sites, obsession with blog stats, obvious copy/pasting from other sites, etc.

Comment #32: The Opoponax  on  06/10  at  12:53 PM

that man would be running in 2016.  Again, she’ll wind up supporting him

I think this is a huge assumption to make.

1.  Cheney, our current VP, has decided not to seek the presidnecy, as you obviously know..

2.  The last VP-incumbent, Gore, was not elected, and his campaign was riddled with people from his own party flirting with supporting a third party candidate. 

3.  Several two-term administrations of the past century or so have switched VP’s in midstream.  (Nixon being the obvious example). 

4.  We have also had several one-term presidents in the last few decades (Bush I, Carter, LBJ , Ford…)l

All of those very real possibilities mean that, no, actually, the next 30 years of electoral politics is not completely locked up yet.  Shit, 8 years ago in 2000 I’m not sure that anyone really foresaw a legitimate woman candidate for president.  How is it, then, that we can know for sure that no major party candidate can possibly have a female running mate for the next 4 election cycles, or that every VP will seek the presidency, or that no important female third party candidate will surface, or any of the other myriad situations that could enable a liberal leaning older woman to vote for a woman, if she so chooses.

Comment #33: The Opoponax  on  06/10  at  01:10 PM

I’m talking about all the comments that match squashed’s style to an uncanny degree
The Opoponax on 06/10 at 11:53 AM

ok miss ‘come late to the party’.

Comment #34: First to the party  on  06/10  at  01:14 PM

Squashed/Eurantia/first to the party/etc: the Opoponax and I are different people. Sorry. I also post under this screenname at Shakesville. You can check me out there.

I’m sorry we don’t all sink to your level of lame sock-puppetry. Please go somewhere where you are welcome instead of trying to evade the ban on your posting. Or, better yet, why don’t you start your own blog? Then you can post about how awesome your site traffic is to your heart’s content.

Comment #35: late to the party  on  06/10  at  01:35 PM

ok. I’ll meet you at Shakes then.

Comment #36: I like Party  on  06/10  at  01:40 PM

I find the whole “take my ball and go home and cry” aspect of the older Second Wavers to be steeped in the same mindset as the “we can’t possibly find common ground to work with so long as we feel like you aren’t paying attention to every little issue that affects US” refrain of the “safe space” bloggers.  It is all well and good to have yourself a place to talk about common issues away from those who don’t share them, and totally another to insist that you won’t work with others so long as your issues don’t dominate the discourse.  This is not effective activism, it is complicity with divide and conquer politics.

Comment #37: Ms Kate  on  06/10  at  01:44 PM

I think, for me, what was disheartening was to see what kind of discourse was acceptable about a strong female politician, not just in the darker corners of the right-wing blogosphere, but on mainstream programs on mainstream cable stations. I don’t think it’s the main reason she lost or even in the top 5 reasons why she lost, but it still is pretty appalling that there can be “legitimate debate” about whether it’s okay to call her a bitch on national television or whether she’s like every man’s first wife standing outside probate court or whether her voice makes people think of their wife telling them to take out the garbage or whether she cried on purpose when she actually didn’t cry at all or any of that stuff. (And you hear similar stuff about Nancy Pelosi - she often is portrayed as a rather shrill harpy, wicked witch of the west, every true-blooded American’s worst nightmare sort of thing.)

So while I agree overall with the post, it would be nice to see a woman run for high national office and have that kind of stuff be less acceptable in mainstream discourse. With race, there is still a lot of coded stuff, and I have no doubt it will get much worse as we head into the general (as per fistbump-gate), but the out-and-out racism is less acceptable on, say, MSNBC (and rightly so).

Comment #38: chingona  on  06/10  at  01:45 PM

it still is pretty appalling that there can be “legitimate debate” about whether it’s okay to call her a bitch on national television or whether she’s like every man’s first wife standing outside probate court or whether her voice makes people think of their wife telling them to take out the garbage or whether she cried on purpose when she actually didn’t cry at all or any of that stuff.

That shit amazed me too. What really amazed me was that lots of people, even politically savvy progressives, fell for it. They’d say, “Oh, I can’t vote for Clinton… I hate her laugh. It sounds so phony.”

Uh, hello, she a politician. We pay them to be phony, remember? You think McCain is honest, or something?

Comment #39: atheist  on  06/10  at  02:05 PM

Hillary Clinton loses mainly because of campaign mechanics and strategic blunder. Sexism does play role in some media coverage and blog conversations, but not enough as main causes. To insist as such, might lead to wrong remedy.

So for eg. instead of building, superior money machine and better ground machine, a zealous observer reading erica jong’s writing will think “well, it’s time to beat up on media and fight mysogany even harder” Otherwise, no woman candidate can win unless sexism is completely eradicated ... etc.

Wrong analysis leads to bad corrective action.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/erica-jong/being-gracious-in-a-sexis_b_105180.html

I want to be wrong about violence. I hate the role of Cassandra. I want to believe that America has moved beyond violence and racism and maybe we have. But I thought we had moved beyond sexism, and this campaign proved me wrong. The petty woman-hating jibes, the ageism, and the physical mockery have not been easy to watch. The only good thing about the defeat of Hillary Clinton may be a resurgence of feminism, an understanding that we haven’t yet killed misogyny and that we have work to do.

“It’s not sexism—it’s her” seems to have replaced, “I’m not a feminist, but” in our national lexicon. This is not to imply that Hillary Clinton is faultless—far from it. But it’s clear that the faults we tolerate and even overlook in men, we see as glaring in women.

Comment #40: Eurantia  on  06/10  at  02:08 PM

I think, for me, what was disheartening was to see what kind of discourse was acceptable about a strong female politician, not just in the darker corners of the right-wing blogosphere, but on mainstream programs on mainstream cable stations.

Honestly, I think the media treatment of her was one of the things that kept people voting for her.  If they had treated her like any other (ie male) politician, the fact that she voted for the war in Iraq and Obama didn’t coupled with Penn’s multiple missteps probably would have tanked her campaign months ago.  But, no, the media had to act like it was some kind of affront that a lowly vagina-owner would run for president.

Contrary to what the media claims, most people—and especially most Democrats—like Hillary Clinton, and a lot of people were pissed off by how she was treated.

Comment #41: Mnemosyne  on  06/10  at  02:32 PM

Honestly, I think the media treatment of her was one of the things that kept people voting for her.

I think there’s something to that. I’ve posted this in another Clinton thread, so my apologies if you’ve heard this before, but after the whole “crying” thing, I heard from women who were lifelong Republicans and long-time Clinton-haters who said they would have voted for her in New Hampshire if they could have, they were so infuriated by the whole thing. I’m sure there was an element of that, and I think it’s one reason voters who supported her for reasons above and beyond that take her loss so personally. The sexism in the media probably didn’t do her in, but it certainly is salt in the wound, if you were a supporter.

Comment #42: chingona  on  06/10  at  03:31 PM

Obama was the people’s choice, the wire-to-wire champion of the pledged delegate race. Clinton was the choice of the party insiders, the inevitable candidate, the candidate of everyone but the people. Obama’s win was a victory for anyone who believes “When the people lead, the leaders will follow.”

I think Hillary grew and changed quite a bit during the campaign, and if the “new Hillary” has staying power, I will happily vote for her in 2016.

Comment #43: Hector B.  on  06/10  at  04:12 PM

Try not to be patronizing, that is my advice to all my younger friends and fans of Obama. At this point, I don’t feel much kinship with a lot of leftists I used to agree with. The shove off you old bag stuff was terrible, but the sorry but your day is done attitude is even worse.

Comment #44: Hattie  on  06/10  at  04:29 PM

Check out this video posted at Shakesville. A lot of the stuff is from Fox News, but too much of it is from supposedly liberal MSNBC, et al.

http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2008/06/hillary-sexism-watch-part-105.html#disqus_thread

Comment #45: chingona  on  06/10  at  04:42 PM

In 2016, Hillary will be 72 or so.  That’s McCain’s age, that we’re giving him so much stick about now.  In 2016 there will be some other young, energetic up-and-comer running to replace Obama (and don’t forget that Obama’s VP might be running- I don’t see her as that VP); it’s going to be hard to convince people, as it is hard now for McCain, that you’re the candidate of energy and vision when you’re 72 and already lost once, running against the outgoing President.

I think this was her first and last shot, that she knew it, and that that’s part of why she fought so very hard to keep the race going.  Her future now is to replace Ted Kennedy (or Robert Byrd) as one of the top Democratic leaders of the Senate (somehow the term “old bull” doesn’t seem appropriate, but that’s her future as I see it).  Running against and beating the wishy-washy Harry Reid for Majority Leader would be a nice next step on that road.

Comment #46: liberalrob  on  06/10  at  05:11 PM

Try not to be patronizing, that is my advice to all my younger friends and fans of Obama. At this point, I don’t feel much kinship with a lot of leftists I used to agree with. The shove off you old bag stuff was terrible, but the sorry but your day is done attitude is even worse.

I’ve translated this in other threads as well, but the age thing is not really an age thing per se.

The age thing translates as, We’re sick of politicians running on Who Did What During Vietnam.  We’ve had to deal with that since at least 1992, 1988 if you count the rumor that there were pictures of Kitty Dukakis burning an American flag during anti-war protests.  That’s 15 to 20 years of fighting about who did what during a war that ended over 30 years ago.

McCain tipped his hand early on that this was going to be Viet-fucking-nam all over again when he ran commercials mocking Hillary for supporting a Woodstock museum.  It was going to be all about who was patriotic and who wasn’t and whose service was more important and who was or wasn’t a dirty fucking hippie back in the day.

You know where Obama was during Vietnam?  Junior high school.  He couldn’t have fought in the war if he had wanted to.  He was too young for the draft.  And that really is a big reason why he won.  People did not want to have to deal with all of the Vietnam/1960s bullshit all over again when we’ve got much bigger problems to deal with than what Jane Fonda was doing in 1968.

Comment #47: Mnemosyne  on  06/10  at  05:47 PM

the gap grew significantly after Hillary’s concession speech on Saturday, which suggests that the spread has only just begun:

Obama appears to be rising even faster following Hillary Clinton’s concession speech on Saturday than he rose from Wednesday through Friday. Since Clinton’s speech, despite only a two-day sample, Obama has gained 5% relative to McCain in Gallup, and 3% relative to McCain in Rasmussen. Cumulatively, that is more than half of Obama’s gain, despite only having a two-day sample (the tracking polls measure three days, according to both websites).
Rasmussen also notices that Obama is not doing poorly among women voters, as is commonly presumed in most coverage:

Pollster Scott Rasmussen says that as of today, based on 3,000 automated telephone surveys over the past three nights, Obama gets support from 52% of the women in his national tracking poll compared with 40% for presumptive Republican nominee John McCain. He says that’s better than Democrat John Kerry did with women against President Bush in 2004.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/09/obama-polls-number-bump-u_n_106160.html

Comment #48: Blimp  on  06/10  at  07:54 PM

I’ll admit to being puzzled by my sister, a Clinton supporter who spent most of the primary season furious with the media and just plain furious. Now she’s furious that Hillary lost and doesn’t know how she’ll bring herself to vote for Obama. Really? Is there really another reasonable choice? If you supported Clinton (as I did) can you seriously think McCain is a closer surrogate for your beliefs and goals than Obama? Disappointment that Clinton didn’t mount a winning campaign is understandable. Aggravation at the sexism that did rear its ugly head, as well. But to be so annoyed that you’d cut off your moderately liberal nose to spite your moderate to liberal face is just mystifying to me.

Comment #49: bo  on  06/11  at  12:06 AM

It’s very early in the healing process yet.  In March 2000, 51% of McCain supporters said they wouldn’t vote for Bush.  Enough of those folks came home to the GOP for Bush to be given the presidency.  That’s why I’m not too worried about these hard-core Hillary types—general election campaigns have a way of bringing everybody on board. 

And Obama was nowhere near as nasty to Hillary as Bush was to McCain.  There were no push polls suggesting that Hillary had an illegitimate black child, or anything like that.

Comment #50: Neil the Ethical Werewolf  on  06/11  at  01:17 AM

Clinton, of course, must be aware of this calculus and as such is faced with an unprecedented moral/ethical choice heading into the fall. If she campaigns hard for Obama and helps pull all of her disaffected voters back onto the Democratic ticket, Obama will probably win this thing in a landslide. If she pulls a slowdown, however, and a big chunk of her voters sit this one out or vote for McCain, it will greatly enhance her own prospects for the presidency four years later.

Clinton, therefore must choose between two loyalties: party and self. Depending on how one looks at things, one might even say the choice is between country and self. Assuming that one believes the differences between a Republican presidency and a Democratic presidency would be profound, Clinton now must decide if she thinks that the country would be better off suffering through four years of McCain before getting a shot at putting her own excellent, experienced self in the Oval Office, or whether it would be better off putting a man whose platform is almost identical to her own in there right away.

http://www.alternet.org/election08/87629/?page=1

Comment #51: Tibia  on  06/11  at  08:56 AM

Where other women in that situation might have been forced to concede—women in professional environments who couldn’t take a stand against their bosses and risk losing their jobs, women in abusive relationships forced to coddle the egos of inferior men in order to protect their own or their children’s physical well-being—Clinton was able to fight on. The fact that she was able not only to fight on but to inflict real damage against her smug, seductive, would-be male conqueror was an added bonus.

As a symbol of feminist resolve, Clinton was a smashing success and an inspiration of historical proportions. Generations of young women will grow up remembering this race as a great national lesson in which the country was taught that a woman can succeed in head-to-head combat with men through sheer blood-and-guts aggressiveness and pugilistic resolve, while it is men who sometimes have to resort to good looks and charm to get over in life. As a smasher of stereotypes (not only female stereotypes but male ones as well), Clinton has no equal in modern history. And if that was her thinking in staying in the race, I’d have a hard time arguing with her logic.

But there are two problems with this somewhat heroic interpretation of Clinton’s campaign.

The first is that in order for Clinton to continue a campaign whose only logical pretext was as a symbolic campaign against sexism and sexist stereotypes, it appears that she and her supporters felt it necessary to turn Obama into a villain, a symbol both of male iniquity and of the sins of a male-dominated society.

At first, the implication that Obama’s campaign was somehow wind-aided by sexism or in fact sexist itself was merely implied in the rhetoric of Clinton supporters, or in Clinton’s own speeches. But later it became overt. Former vice presidential hopeful Geraldine Ferraro spelled it out openly after her celebrated interview with the New York Times in which she called Obama “terribly sexist.” Here is how one newspaper summed up Ferraro’s evidence of Obama sexism:

  His response to Mrs. Clinton’s reminiscences about learning to shoot as a girl at her grandfather’s summer cabin in Pennsylvania. Miss Ferraro said: “He walked up and down the stage with his microphone like a stand-up comic and ridiculed her as an Annie Oakley,” she said, quoting his reference to the legendary female sharpshooter. “Would he have ridiculed a man by comparing him to John Wayne? Of course not.”

  His apparently dismissive description of Mrs. Clinton as “likeable enough” during a televised debate before the New Hampshire primaries.

  His role in an earlier debate in Philadelphia when several of the male candidates running at the time were said to have ganged up on her, prompting Mrs. Clinton to complain about the “boy’s club” of U.S. politics.

  His “failure,” Miss Ferraro claims, to speak out against other sexist acts such as lewd T-shirts, the men who shouted “Iron my shirt!” at Mrs. Clinton and jibes about her “cackle.” Mr. Obama also apologized to a female reporter he called “sweetie” in an aside that received widespread coverage.

To sum up, this famous and influential female politician classified as “terrible sexism” a mocking comparison of Clinton, who was somewhat absurdly describing herself as a cabin-raised child of the frontier, to a famous frontier woman (was he supposed to pick Daniel Boone or Davy Crockett?); a comment that Clinton was likeable; Obama’s participation in a debate in which trailing candidates “ganged up” on the front-runner (as if that had never happened before!); and his failure to speak out against a) an obscure T-shirt and b) a description of Clinton’s off-putting laugh that, excuse me, is totally accurate.

Comment #52: Tibia  on  06/11  at  09:04 AM

And now for a third question, and this is the biggie, so please take your time with it: How is it that you have managed to hold your nose all these years, just like a lot of us on the left, and vote for Democrats who we knew were horribly inadequate—Kerry, Gore, Clinton, Dukakis, right on down the uninspiring line—and yet, apparently can’t bring yourself to vote for Barack Obama? A man who, for all of his shortcomings (and there are several, as with all candidates put up by either of the two is surely more progressive than any of those just mentioned. And how are we to understand that refusal—this sudden line in the proverbial sand—other than as a racist slap at a black man? You will vote for white men year after year after year—and are threatening to vote for another one just to make a point—but can’t bring yourself to vote for a black man, whose political views come much closer to your own, in all likelihood, than do the views of any of the white men you’ve supported before. How, other than as an act of racism, or perhaps as evidence of political insanity, is one to interpret such a thing?

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2008/6/11/43434/0393/43#c43

Comment #53: Tibia  on  06/11  at  09:20 AM
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