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Next entry: Ben Stein issues disingenuous dare, will be sorry that Ebert took him up on it Previous entry: This Is Not A Time

Vampires, liberals, and blood-sucking pretend liberals

ChoadsConservativesFeminismLGBT

Pam’s post below about the color-arousing tactics post-Prop 8 links what may or may not be the most disingenuous piece of writing I’ve ever read that wasn’t a literary experiment with an unreliable narrator.  I say “may not”, because I’m only on my second cup of coffee and my mind has been occupied in the past few days with a) writing about environmentalism for my next book, b) finishing up the organization of my music collection, c) playing Rock Band 2, and d) mustering cleverness on issues like pop music history, so the neural pathways that lead to the part of my brain that ranks wingnut writing by levels of coyness are a little dusty.  It’s possible there’s some essay out there where the writer is more pleased with herself for tricking her readership, but I can’t think of it.

The co-authors are Benjamin Schwartz (an Atlantic editor) and Caitlin Flanagan (Christian conservative who masquerades as a delightful upper crust housewife, who is liberal except “fill in what she’s writing about today”).  Both are obviously masters at the form of cheeky-sounding writing that aims to puncture liberal illusions, but in fact is nothing but standard issue right wing memes dressed up in writing too expensive and smooth for the likes of WorldNetDaily.  Flanagan especially is a master at flattering certain conservative male notions about how women are all just silly chipmunks who really do want to stay at home to fold sheets in their lingerie, but that stupid feminist movement made them think they have something to prove, poor dears.  Her schtick is to conceal that she’s a religious conservative, and instead falsely present herself as someone who knows she ought to be a liberal (because it’s so fashionable), but she’s just so smart and honest that she can’t be. And the implication is always, always, always that all white liberals think just like her—-that human equality is a joke, that women are dim, that gays are icky—-but can’t admit it to themselves because they’re not as brave as dear Caitlin Flanagan. 


All the disingenuous markers of this kind of writing are in place.  First, you must impress up on the audience that you run in the sophisticated liberal circles that you are mocking, and so you have a first class seat to hear what kind of things they say.

Left-leaning California’s horror about this newly revealed schism between two of its favorite sons is a situation that cries out for a villain, but the one that liberal white Hollywood has chosen for the role probably won’t make it all the way to the third act.

“It’s their churches,” somebody whispered to one of us not long after the election; “It’s their Christianity,” someone else hissed, rolling her eyes.

Really?  Did he or she whisper it to both of you at the same time?  Rich white liberals are very talented and magical people, but I didn’t know they could whisper to two people that were probably in different geographic locations at the same time.  Did they just hiss it, or did the red evidence of a demonic presence flash through their eyes briefly as well?

There’s an interesting David Cross routine where he talks about the tradition of just making shit up in the super-Christian circles, i.e. creating hypothetical encounters with people in the “real world” and passing these off as true stories in sermons, pamphlets, or books that are aimed at improving the moral fiber of the audience.  His examples are great—-a story from a marriage manual that reads like it was made up by someone from another culture looking in and a story about a Christian who sits down on a plane and whose seatmate offers that she’s a Satanist fasting for the death of Christian ministers—-all obvious fictions.  That’s how I feel reading this piece.  Did this happen?  Or are they feeding into the tradition of making up hypothetical examples for moral instruction?  Not that the sentiment they’re describing has never been expressed exactly.  But the whispering, the furtive nature of it.  Would you whisper anything in the ears of either of these lunkheads?  No, of course not.  Because you know you’d be a featured example in the next round of op-eds about those Silly, Intolerant Liberals.  But hell, it could have happened, right?

The fact of the matter is that liberals are being played.  Turn on your TV, flip through the papers and start tallying the numbers.  The people who are pushing this “Blacks Vs. Gays” meme are conservatives who are trying to break up the Democratic coalition in light of the fact that it’s their only hope now that their party has set the economy on fire and let it burn to the ground.  Not that there aren’t liberals falling for it, but they are fools.  It’s pure bait.  It’s nasty, demeaning stereotyping that deliberately washes over the diversity in any group of people linked by anything, not just race or sexual orientation. 

But back to why this article is pure wingnuttery, and not, as it pretends to be, liberalism with a shot of reality.*  There’s plenty of space wasted in drumming up resentments against the Liberal Elite, who are all rich and work in Hollywood, but also get to party more than you.

What we in California have been forced to confront, before anyone had even had the chance to sweep up the tinsel or plop the first Alka-Seltzers into the glasses of water after that heavenly night in Grant Park, is that there’s a big difference between coalition politics and rainbow party politics.

Wait, Grant Park is in California?  I thought it was in Chicago.  Well, it’s all in the mystical parts of the country called Liberal Land, where people fornicate up the butt in the streets, and feel good when they win, instead of grimly satisfied that the march of human progress has been stalled yet again.  Obviously, coherence is less important than throwing every stereotype against the wall, especially those that can drum up jealousies and resentments that can be channeled at the Liberal Elite.  They don’t miss a note—-liberals party, liberals are famous Hollywood actors, liberals go to cocktail parties with smart people, liberals put their kids in private schools, liberals live in bubbles of wealth and privilege, liberals don’t have to sit through dull church services, liberals own iPods, liberals speak in whispers—-man, fuck those elitist bastards!  Too bad it’s impossible for the majority of liberals to live such charmed lives, statistically speaking.

Flanagan’s world-weary and witty insistence that liberals live in a fantasy world** meant that she was forced to come down off her heavenly pedestal and set us all straight on how, whether we like it or not, the popularity of the “Twilight” series means feminism is bound to fail.  Because men don’t want to fuck feminists, for one thing, due to their being old and jaded and willing to sit in spas instead of vacuum something.

Think, for a moment, of the huge teen-girl books of the past decade. The Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants is about female empowerment as it’s currently defined by the kind of jaded, 40-something divorcées who wash ashore at day spas with their grizzled girlfriends and pollute the Quiet Room with their ceaseless cackling about the uselessness of men.

Jennifer Weiner points out that Flanagan will happily work this schtick to get published, though.  One of us!  One of us!  You, too, can be haggard and unloveable.

But mostly, feminism will fail because women are born kind of stupid and masochistic.

Bella’s fervent hope—one that will not be realized until the final novel—is that Edward will ravage her, and that they will be joined forever; the harrowing pain that is said to be the victim’s lot at the time of consummation means nothing to her. She loves him and wants to make a gift to him of her physical body—an act fraught with ambiguous dangers (the Twilight series so resonates with girls because it perfectly encapsulates the giddiness and the rapture—and the menace—that inherently accompany romance and sex for them).

I wasn’t aware that young women crave sex because they think it’s a horrible experience you tolerate to show your love.  I don’t remember thinking of sex as a huge sacrifice of my body to prove anything, but then again, I’m perhaps a weirdo. 

Flanagan skirts on the edge of what makes this series so attractive, which is why her dripping contempt for her own gender is all the more alarming.  She’s not wrong that the vampire is attractive because he’s the bad boy with a heart of gold. Nor is she wrong that this is enticing pornography for those who are still stuck in an ambivalent space about their own sexuality.  But her interpretations of this are all wrong—-basically that women are inherently childish (and that they lose all charm when that’s gone) and more than a little submissive and masochistic. My take is entirely different.  The “bad boy with a heart of gold” fantasy is a way for young women to deal with their big time second class status to young men.  In high school, especially, young men completely rule your life. They are the stars, and young women are the decoration.  They can be openly contemptuous of you, and your job is to dance around and avoid getting on the wrong side of the young men who can utterly ruin your reputation.  They want sex from you, but they also want you to be cute, innocent, and pure.  The worst part of all this is that while you’re at the mercy of young men and you resent them, you also are awakening sexually and want to engage with them for romantic and sexual purposes. 

What the myth of the good vampire does, then, is gives you an opportunity to believe that the young men who oppress you but who you want anyway aren’t serious.  Sure, the boys might roll their eyes when you talk, treat you like you’re invisible, laugh at you and ask if you’re on your period, but one of them secretly dissents.  And only when you’re alone and in love will he show that even though he treats you with contempt as is tradition with his species, he really loves you and would do anything to protect you.  It’s the female equivalent of the male fantasy of the sexy woman who is ever-ready and ever-compliant, who thinks you’re the best thing that’s ever happened to her. Young women outgrow it as they figure out alternative ways to deal with the problem of contemptuous men and sexual desire.  Or they don’t get around that problem, and the myth continues to resonate.


*I love, by the way, that people who believe that the Sky Fairy cares where we stick our genitals and that the President really did think there were WMDs in Iraq have the nerve to pretend they own realism.
**So sayeth the professional writer who pretends that she’s a housewife, even though she has admitted to having never folded a sheet.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 01:49 PM • (124) Comments

Flanagan is about as credible as Schlafly, with their bold ideas about the roles of women ... after handing off the actual drugery of those roles to servant women.

Comment #1: Ms Kate  on  12/08  at  01:56 PM

His examples are great—-a story from a marriage manual that reads like it was made up by someone from another culture looking in and a story about a Christian who sits down on a plane and whose seatmate offers that she’s a Satanist fasting for the death of Christian ministers—-all obvious fictions.  That’s how I feel reading this piece.

The one I’ve had my students dump on me on occasion is the story of the atheist professor railing against belief who says “if there’s a God, He’ll keep this piece of chalk from hitting the floor,” only to have said chalk wind up in his pants cuff (which is why I refuse to wear cuffed pants to this day). And that was my reaction when reading the Flanagan/Schwarz piece yesterday—pure bullshit hackitude.

I don’t know if you’ll have the answer to this question handy, but is Schwarz as big a hack as Flanagan? y gut reaction to the piece was to push all the bullshit onto her because of her rep, but I don’t want to leave Schwarz out of the criticism, just because of Flanagan’s higher profile.

Comment #2: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  12/08  at  02:09 PM

I recently found my friend’s bright and independent 11-year-old daughter was reading the Twilight series. I had a talk with him, and he then with his very reasonable ex-wife, about the message of “submission to males” that permeates these books. And apparently a very productive mother-daughter conversation ensued around the topic of the book.

The young lady is still finishing the series, but she now also understands that placing her own desires and ambitions and independence second to those of a boy simply because she likes him and he professes to like her is definitely not OK.

Comment #3: Gracchus  on  12/08  at  02:16 PM

Well, he’s the editor of the Atlantic.  And they love concern trolls there.  He’s the one who got Flanagan into writing professionally.  Here he concern trolls yuppie progressives.  In it, he uses the term “the left” non-ironically to describe people I’d call liberal Democrats of the professional class, certainly not The Left.  And of course, they are the real bigots. So yeah, a conservative who hides behind sophistication to get some liberal cred, I suspect.

Comment #4: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/08  at  02:19 PM

So yeah, a conservative who hides behind sophistication to get some liberal cred, I suspect.

Sounds like a sneakier version of Bobo Brooksie. The logical fallacy of the excluded middle (as described by Roger Ebert in his recent takedown of Ben Stein) is meat and drink to these “sophisticated” conservatives.

Comment #5: Gracchus  on  12/08  at  02:26 PM

His examples are great—-a story from a marriage manual that reads like it was made up by someone from another culture looking in and a story about a Christian who sits down on a plane and whose seatmate offers that she’s a Satanist fasting for the death of Christian ministers—-all obvious fictions.

To be fair, I could totally picture some of our resident atheists telling that to a pushy Christian on an airplane just to see the reaction they’d get.

Comment #6: Mnemosyne  on  12/08  at  02:31 PM

NPR did a piece on Twilight not too long ago. There were two guests, guys who had written books on horror films and horror film culture. I called in and asked a question comparing Buffy to Twilight: I felt that 90’s Buffy (ass-kicking, smart-aleck heroine; vampires as wrong or hot but wrong) reflected a different cultural message than 00’s Twilight (self-loathing, overly delicate heroine; vampires as perfect beings who stalk you for your own good) and I questioned the impact of Twilight on young girls.

Their answer back to me basically boiled down to “silly girl, you were young when Buffy was on and now you’re old; stalking doesn’t seem as sexy as it did then.” WHUT.

Anyway. The Twilight series, to me, feels like a cry for help. They’re novels about a teenage girl dropping her entire life and her family to become eternally bonded to a dude More Special Than Her and start popping out children. But they become increasingly more erratic as the series goes on… frighteningly so.

Comment #7: other orange  on  12/08  at  02:40 PM

To be fair, I could totally picture some of our resident atheists telling that to a pushy Christian on an airplane just to see the reaction they’d get.

Well, I wouldn’t claim to be a Satanist. I’d go for something far more arcane, if not completely invented.

Comment #8: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  12/08  at  02:42 PM

Amanda, thanks for a brilliant post.  You nailed down what bugged me about Flanagan’s Twilight column, and you succinctly illuminated the mind set that the Twilight books encourage and cater to.  Well effing done.

Comment #9: nolo  on  12/08  at  02:44 PM

Yeah, stupid Christians never get it when I tell them I’m wishing for “god” to strike every megachurch in the country with meteors at noon on Sunday. I’m an atheist and don’t believe in “god,” and besides I want the Unitarians spared.

Comment #10: felagund  on  12/08  at  02:45 PM

I could picture a devout Christian telling that to an airplane companion to get some peace and quiet.  There are lots of circumstances under which it would be pretty funny.

Comment #11: lonespark  on  12/08  at  02:46 PM

“To be fair, I could totally picture some of our resident atheists telling that to a pushy Christian on an airplane just to see the reaction they’d get.”

Yeah.  I always figured it was about an even split between bullshit manufactured from whole cloth and actual events in which their credulity or desire for such an encounter had prevented them from realizing the other person was winding them up, conducting their own little social experiment, or flat-out off-their-meds crazy.

Comment #12: preying mantis  on  12/08  at  02:50 PM

Wait, Grant Park is in California?  I thought it was in Chicago.

Meh, not your most telling blow.  I’d edit that one out of the book.

Comment #13: Eric, Rejector of Memez  on  12/08  at  02:59 PM

To be fair, I could totally picture some of our resident atheists telling that to a pushy Christian on an airplane just to see the reaction they’d get.

You’d have to be quick on your feet, though.  And you’d have to be assured that the person asking why you weren’t eating was a Christian fundie, and you’d have to believe they wouldn’t respond in a violent or bizarre way, which you couldn’t know after sitting next to someone for a minute.  wink  I tend to lay low when dealing with strangers on airplanes, because you never know how weird someone is, or aggressive.

Comment #14: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/08  at  02:59 PM

Eric, now I have to put it in.  Because you just demonstrated that it’s a wink towards people with a more sophisticated sense of humor.  Which means, alas, I won’t be telling you why that joke works on a level you aren’t perceiving.  It’s time to stop giving you fish and start holding fishing classes.

Comment #15: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/08  at  03:02 PM

I found this, at MSN.com. of all places:

Feminist? Or anti-feminist? How you view the writings of Caitlin Flanagan depends on which side of that issue you start out on.

The author of the book To Hell With All That: Loving and Loathing Our Inner Housewife is the master of sending mixed messages about modern motherhood and making those on both sides of the fence second-guess their choices. Flanagan, who also has written for the Atlantic Monthly and The New Yorker, often evokes pity for women who “choose” to work full time and forsake the chance to create a warm home environment..

But Flanagan, who purports to be an advocate for stay-at-home moms, is no traditional SAHM herself—she has an extremely successful writing career, which she categorizes as a “hobby.” To allow herself the luxury of that hobby, she has in the past admitted to having a nanny and a housekeeper.

A woman with a high-profile writing career and who has employees to help with the kids and do the laundry? Doesn’t sound like the June Cleaver-existence Flanagan pushes on other women.

In high school, especially, young men completely rule your life. They are the stars, and young women are the decoration.  They can be openly contemptuous of you, and your job is to dance around and avoid getting on the wrong side of the young men who can utterly ruin your reputation.  They want sex from you, but they also want you to be cute, innocent, and pure.  The worst part of all this is that while you’re at the mercy of young men and you resent them, you also are awakening sexually and want to engage with them for romantic and sexual purposes.

Boy, you have no idea how it looks from the other side…

Comment #17: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  12/08  at  03:12 PM

Well, I wouldn’t claim to be a Satanist. I’d go for something far more arcane, if not completely invented.

Yeah, but remember, this is a pushy Kreestian you’re dealing with. If you have to spend the first fifteen minutes explaining what you are to someone who hasn’t actually read 90% of the Bible, much less anything else, the prank loses a lot of its punch.

Comment #18: Redshift  on  12/08  at  03:21 PM

Nor does it matter, Piator.  I’m describing why girls find these books appealing.  Because as much as boys might feel put upon because they can’t get sex by snapping their fingers, girls feel put upon because they’re just second class.  So, to be fair, are boys that aren’t at the top of the hierarchy.  But even in the nerd caste in high school, the boys outranked the girls.  You were permitted to dissent, but were not permitted to dissent in ways that had an effect.

Comment #19: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/08  at  03:24 PM

“She’s not wrong that the vampire is attractive because he’s the bad boy with a heart of gold.”

But I thought. . . never mind.

Comment #20: Notorious P.A.T.  on  12/08  at  03:26 PM

Boy, you have no idea how it looks from the other side…

PITOR, I think actually that it is true, to a point. This is how ‘popular’ boys often do treat girls. Or even boys who are trying to be popular—they might believe that no-one will respect a soft boy.

Comment #21: atheist  on  12/08  at  03:26 PM

“You’d have to be quick on your feet, though.  And you’d have to be assured that the person asking why you weren’t eating was a Christian fundie, and you’d have to believe they wouldn’t respond in a violent or bizarre way, which you couldn’t know after sitting next to someone for a minute.”

Yeah, but they don’t serve meals a minute after take-off.  And the sort of person who’s enough of a blowhard/social maladept to believe and pass something like that fasting Satanist story along without the expectation that everyone who reads it will know they’ve been had generally has a pretty big overlap with the sort of person who’s enough of a blowhard/social maladept to immediately start in on a captive audience with either the evangelical mission personally laid on them by their zombie lord or how important they and their work are.

Comment #22: preying mantis  on  12/08  at  03:26 PM

I think there’s a real power differential, lets put it that way.

Comment #23: atheist  on  12/08  at  03:26 PM

Ah, Redshift, but the fun is in the explanations, because you get to dress up all the Biblical stories in new clothes, and retell them in such ways that the Christian is properly horrified. After all, in this sort of a situation, you’re laughing at them, not with them.

Comment #24: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  12/08  at  03:27 PM

Phoenician maybe you weren’t one of the ruling males, but the highest ranking persons in most high schools seem to be male members of the athletic teams, and many schools do cater to them. Plus, from a female viewpoint, jr. high onward is when guys suddenly get lots bigger and stronger, and frankly, more threatening. No one handles puberty well, and a lot of horrible things get said to your average girl that boil down to threats of violence or just intimidation, often by hulking dudes with letter jackets. By association, it’s pretty easy to associate all boys with that kind of threat, at least till you’re older and more sure of yourself.

I always think of this when I think of boy bands too…they’re always a little femmy, because that’s reassuring to lots of girls at that age.

Twilight is a throwback, just like the sudden surge in Gossip Girl/teenage soap operas featuring Pretty White Teens with Problems and Lots of Money.  When young adult lit exploded, lots of it was quality, but inevitably you get the crap, too. It’s easier to write a passive teen girl in love with a bad boy vampire than it is to create a character like Buffy.

And honestly, I do wonder how many Twilight readers aren’t teens at all.

Comment #25: emjaybee  on  12/08  at  03:32 PM

The worst part of all this is that while you’re at the mercy of young men and you resent them, you also are awakening sexually and want to engage with them for romantic and sexual purposes.

I was going to say “cue the Nice Guy whine that you have it backwards,” but I see Phoenician has anticipated me.

Comment #26: junk science  on  12/08  at  03:35 PM

Junior high and high school are also when gender roles are at their most extreme, which means girls are strongly controlled by peers into being passive and boys feel an obligation to be disdainful of girls.  Again, even the exceptions to the rule in my high school were of degree and not kind.  Some guys were more willing to treat you with more respect, but they still made sure you knew they were smarter/better/more important.

Comment #27: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/08  at  03:40 PM

To be fair, I could totally picture some of our resident atheists telling that to a pushy Christian on an airplane just to see the reaction they’d get.

Well, I wouldn’t claim to be a Satanist. I’d go for something far more arcane, if not completely invented.

I went with “disciple of Charles Manson” on one occasion, when I was young and not as nice as I am now. Crude, but it did the trick.

Comment #28: Bitter Scribe  on  12/08  at  03:47 PM

I haven’t read these Twilight books and have no interest in changing that fact, but I’ve gotten the impression from some of my students that there’s also a fun male-on-male homoerotic component to them.  Is that the case?

Comment #29: FlipYrWhig  on  12/08  at  03:48 PM

FlipYrWhig, if students are reading that into the series, that’s probably totally unintentional on the author’s part (she’s Mormon), and more due to the trend of “slashing” male characters to create relationships that don’t exist in canon.

Speaking of fanfic terminology, the reason young women (and some older women, let’s admit it) like Twilight is because Bella is a Mary Sue, that is, a self-insert on the author’s part *and* a cipher on whom the reader can project herself.

Comment #30: annejumps  on  12/08  at  03:54 PM

Phoenician maybe you weren’t one of the ruling males, but the highest ranking persons in most high schools seem to be male members of the athletic teams, and many schools do cater to them.

Obviously.  No one can disagree with that.  And I, for one, don’t want to take this thread off on a tangent. 

But come on.  Jumping from this quote to “high school is great for boys!” is like saying our president is black, so America is a great place for black people.  We all know that isn’t true. 

gotten the impression from some of my students that there’s also a fun male-on-male homoerotic component to them.  Is that the case?

Hehe, I haven’t read them either, but I would say that any book where one man sucks life-giving fluids from the body of another man has more than a little of that in its DNA.

Comment #31: Notorious P.A.T.  on  12/08  at  03:56 PM

The appeal of Twilight is because it’s the perfect fantasy novel for teen girls—every single romantic trope about female submissiveness, male protection and true love are rewarded faithfully without any strings attached. I suspect this is why it appeals to adult women as well, because wouldn’t it have been nice if you could have had the hottest boy in school who’s also a badboy with a heart of gold and is completely and unswervingly faithful to you and wants to protect you and care for you for the rest of your life? It’s completely and unabashedly regressive, merging the candy-bright romantic fantasies of young girls with the deep dark sexually verboten fantasies of later teenagers and adults.

Someone at a party was giving me shit for not wanting to read Twilight just last night. When I pointed out how completely bass-ackwards it was to have Vampires SPARKLE in the sunlight, and why does Edward have to fly, anyway, why can’t he just summon a My Little Pony and they can go riding down a friggin’ rainbow together, it pretty well ended that discussion. smile

Comment #32: Mighty Ponygirl  on  12/08  at  03:56 PM

Stoney321, a former Utah Mormon, has a hilarious series taking down the books from a Mormon perspective. A must-read.

Comment #33: annejumps  on  12/08  at  03:57 PM

Some guys were more willing to treat you with more respect, but they still made sure you knew they were smarter/better/more important.

In those years I was almost certainly afflicted with incipient NiceGuyIsm—developing intense and quiet crushes I’d never act on, with corresponding jealousies towards other guys who _would_ act on them—but it was entirely interlocked with a feeling that I was utterly _un_important, which drove the whole complex. 

I say this not to deny what junior high and high school feel like for a woman, nor to demand reassurance (in college, I snapped out of it, or I might have ended up a full-bore NiceGuy), but just as a data point, one that I think is not entirely uncommon.

Comment #34: FlipYrWhig  on  12/08  at  04:00 PM

I always think of this when I think of boy bands too…they’re always a little femmy, because that’s reassuring to lots of girls at that age.

One of my favorite gags on “The Simpsons” was a shot of Lisa reading Non-Threatening Boy Magazine.

Comment #35: Mnemosyne  on  12/08  at  04:03 PM

Are these male vampires brooding and Darcy-esque, or are they ass-kicking knights-errant?  I’m wondering if they’re surrogates for the high-status high-school (male) athlete or alternatives to that fantasy.

Comment #36: FlipYrWhig  on  12/08  at  04:07 PM

I always felt that the “bad boy” mystique is at least as much about finding a more attractive alternative rather than turd polishing the wasteland of high school boys (and we were pretty awful). The bad boy, whether in The Wild One, Footloose, Heathers, or Twilight, is an alternative. Everything that is cool is present (casual menace, dripping disdain, etc.), but the social politics of school is beneath him. He also offers a free pass out of suburban hell, where the heroine can escape her middle class existence and live a life where passion is the dominant force, rather than status. Not to mention most bad boys are isolated from the petty concerns of high school life either because their delinquency marks them as outsiders or they are newcomers to town. Or are large undead ticks on two legs.

Comment #37: histrogeek  on  12/08  at  04:13 PM

Are these male vampires brooding and Darcy-esque, or are they ass-kicking knights-errant?  I’m wondering if they’re surrogates for the high-status high-school (male) athlete or alternatives to that fantasy.

I get the sense they’re that happy medium between those two types: Hollywood friendly “sensitive rebel bad boys” who are portrayed by “this year’s James Dean.”

The bad boy, whether in The Wild One, Footloose, Heathers, or Twilight, is an alternative.

Although Heathers shows the bad boy rebel for what he frequently is in real life: a violent and manipulative psychopath. That movie rocks on many levels.

Comment #38: Gracchus  on  12/08  at  04:24 PM

Nor does it matter, Piator.  I’m describing why girls find these books appealing.

True enough.  I just couldn’t help flashing back to a cartoon I vaguely recall.  It had an adolescent girl and boy playing chess - the girl is thinking “If I move to C4, I can threaten his queen while concealign a possible check…” and the boy is thinking “What’s the horsie called again?”

PITOR, I think actually that it is true, to a point. This is how ‘popular’ boys often do treat girls. Or even boys who are trying to be popular—they might believe that no-one will respect a soft boy.

Oh, I don’t disagree.  I’m just saying that it looks very different from the other side.  I can’t speak for the popular, or even the normal - my adolescence was pretty much abnormal - but I’d suggest you don’t underestimate the power of fear and confusion as motivations in the male teenager…

Someone at a party was giving me shit for not wanting to read Twilight just last night. When I pointed out how completely bass-ackwards it was to have Vampires SPARKLE in the sunlight, and why does Edward have to fly, anyway, why can’t he just summon a My Little Pony and they can go riding down a friggin’ rainbow together, it pretty well ended that discussion. smile

That’s amusing.  There’s a temptation to push Poppy Z Brite onto these Twilight readers as soon as they’re finished.

Comment #39: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  12/08  at  04:24 PM

It’s pure bait.  It’s nasty, demeaning stereotyping that deliberately washes over the diversity in any group of people linked by anything, not just race or sexual orientation.

See, the only hope here is that reality has a liberal bend to it.  Nate Silver of 538.com did a great statistical breakdown demonstrating the fallacy of the “blacks passed Prop 8” meme.  If you push facts and math at liberals, they tend to acknowledge their veracity (or find some other plausible deniability).  “Believing” reality never comes into it.  It is what it is.

I’m sure Fox News is still pushing that divisive meme, but that, again, won’t be overly helpful to them, since most liberals already believe everything Fox says is a lie or a conservative talking point.  I sure do.  It’s a faithfully held belief that I will only drop for any occasion that I can see the facts and math back up a talking point.  If Rush says it, he probably pulled it out of his ass, so I call it shit unless it can otherwise be proven true.

———-
As for the Grant Park crack—what they wrote makes no sense whatsoever.  It’s even a little worse b/c they obviously could not have even WATCHED the Grant Park rally.  That place was locked up HOURS ahead of time, and there was no alcohol available.  People were not drunkenly partying in that evul liberul style.  People were soberly-yet enthusiastically—celebrating the changing of the guard.  People were happy and hopeful.

It wasn’t Times Square at New Year’s.  No Alka Seltzer required the next morning; maybe just a pinch to make sure you weren’t dreaming.

Comment #40: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  12/08  at  04:28 PM

Everything that is cool is present (casual menace, dripping disdain, etc.)

Man oh man, I must be an alien baby because I don’t find those qualities cool at all.

Comment #41: Notorious P.A.T.  on  12/08  at  04:50 PM

I always felt that the “bad boy” mystique is at least as much about finding a more attractive alternative rather than turd polishing the wasteland of high school boys (and we were pretty awful).

Sort of a “harm reduction” approach to heteronormativity, then.  wink

Comment #42: FlipYrWhig  on  12/08  at  04:54 PM

LIEbral feminutzys refuse to have sexual relations until their wussy DEMONcrap man buys them a Dyson (then, they pretty much have to).

Comment #43: Rugged in Montana  on  12/08  at  04:57 PM

Enough about Twilight.  Did anyone watch True Blood?

Comment #44: NY Expat  on  12/08  at  05:06 PM

When I pointed out how completely bass-ackwards it was to have Vampires SPARKLE in the sunlight, and why does Edward have to fly, anyway, why can’t he just summon a My Little Pony and they can go riding down a friggin’ rainbow together, it pretty well ended that discussion.

But, but, OurVampiresAreDifferent!  Why won’t you see that?

Comment #45: stogoe  on  12/08  at  05:16 PM

“Stoney321, a former Utah Mormon, has a hilarious series taking down the books from a Mormon perspective.”

LOL.  That’s awesome )

Comment #46: Notorious P.A.T.  on  12/08  at  05:17 PM

first, sisterhood of the traveling pants was actually a pretty good book, as far as YA fiction goes.

second, this flanagan woman’s writing has brought out a part of me i didnt realize existed. you remember all those 80s dramas where woman in evening gowns and diamonds and gigantic hair slap and catfight and then one shoves the other into a pool? i want to be the one who slaps and shoves flanagan into the pool. she makes me want to jump up and down yelling obscenities into the ether.

and finally, this

Again, even the exceptions to the rule in my high school were of degree and not kind.  Some guys were more willing to treat you with more respect, but they still made sure you knew they were smarter/better/more important.

YES!!!! times infinity. when i hit puberty i became a target for the mean girl types, and i started hanging out with boys. i spent most of my teens and early 20s the only girl in the group, especially once i got super into punk rock where there arent nearly as many girls around. and of course my guy friends would complain about girls and put them down and talk mad shit, but they would of course tell me that i wasnt like that, i was the “cool” girl. of course that didnt stop them from always teasing me about my breasts and my “sluttiness”. i may have been the “cool” girl, but i was still a girl and hence a target and not the same and not as good.

Comment #47: jessilikewhoa  on  12/08  at  05:36 PM

At puberty, the adults start enforcing gender roles more strongly, too; even if they (we?...) think they’re egalitarian, they’re unconsciously disturbed by a reversal of order, and boy do I remember reacting to that air of disgust. One can’t reason with it.

About “don’t underestimate the power of fear and confusion as motivations in the male teenager…”; I don’t think I do: but don’t underestimate the dirty vicious tactics that fear and confusion drive male teenagers towards. The more powerful the emotions, the nastier the behavior towards the girls who are `supposed’ to assuage them.

Anecdote: I was on the math team in high school. Almost all of us were outsider nebbishes, as you might expect (although the captain was also on the football team, socially accepted, and pretty much a mensch). When the nastier guys were feeling especially loser-ish, they started joking about raping girls, which even mensch-dude only looked queasy about. No-one ever joked with me about raping, or otherwise attacking, guys—the point of the joke was that everyone else had one person (me) to threaten and look down on.  And that’s what threatened outsider boys do over and over again in desperation.

I think it’s getting better, mostly, except for the backlash; but hearing that the losers are miserable and desperate doesn’t make me expect better behavior from them. Patriarchy Hurts Everybody, line $BIGNUM.

Comment #48: clew  on  12/08  at  06:04 PM

stogoe, I presume you meant OurVampiresAreDifferent?

Comment #49: LC  on  12/08  at  06:05 PM

Okay, riddle me this: my mother has told me that this series is REQUIRED READING in schools. Why? What literary merit could this have that the superior Harry Potter series doesn’t? It has the same amount of mysticism, but the sex-role conformity means the Christers won’t complain?

About the Satanist thing: a Satanist would not FAST for the death of Christian Ministers; the inversion of Christian theology surely means a fictional Satanist would have to overindulge and feast until vomiting for the death of his enemies.

Comment #50: Mark Temporis  on  12/08  at  06:12 PM

Ack. I fail the internet.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurVampiresAreDifferent

Comment #51: LC  on  12/08  at  06:14 PM

And the implication is always, always, always that all white liberals think just like her—-that human equality is a joke, that women are dim, that gays are icky—-but can’t admit it to themselves because they’re not as brave as dear Caitlin Flanagan.

And here I thought it wasn’t just liberals, but about 90% of people in general.
Yes, I’m misanthropic.

Not reading Twilight or seeing the movie. I don’t knowingly give money to Mormons. And I skimmed two pages in the store and curled my nose. in that short space, I learned Bella is a self-sacrificing, minimal personality martyr. She gives up everything for the men around her (first her father) and waits for them to see how special she is. She waits for that Proverbs 31:29 moment, when the man in her life praises her: “Many women do noble things, but you surpass them all.” (I saw the type all my life. None of them ever got the praise, only increased demands)

At 15, gawd-smacked and masochistic, I would have devoured it. Fortunately, my 16 yo daughter has better literary taste than I did.

Comment #52: Angelia Sparrow  on  12/08  at  06:15 PM

Jumping from this quote to “high school is great for boys!”

Oh thank the Disco Ball no one said that, or you’d have a point.  That boys have carte blanche to take out their woes by degrading girls doesn’t mean their woes aren’t real, anymore than white working class people who lord it over black people aren’t suffering their own woes.

Comment #53: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/08  at  06:15 PM

In high school, especially, young men completely rule your life. They are the stars, and young women are the decoration.  They can be openly contemptuous of you, and your job is to dance around and avoid getting on the wrong side of the young men who can utterly ruin your reputation.  They want sex from you, but they also want you to be cute, innocent, and pure.  The worst part of all this is that while you’re at the mercy of young men and you resent them, you also are awakening sexually and want to engage with them for romantic and sexual purposes.

Boy, you have no idea how it looks from the other side…

Considering my entire reading list in high school was book after book about young white men (no, wait, that’s a lie, we read “Native Son”, which is about a young *black* man) I think I have a pretty decent idea how it “looks from the other side”. My teacher literally *apologized* to the boys one year when we read “Joy Luck Club” and basically gave them permission to tune out. And my teacher the next year told me, when asked why we only read stuff by white men about white men, that he wasn’t “familiar with any female authors from before the 20th century.” So yeah, to summarize, stfu.

Comment #54: Bagelsan  on  12/08  at  06:48 PM

Yeah, we read in a row “Catcher in the Rye”, “Ordinary People” and the one with those two boys at a boarding school and one’s a really good athlete but he gets pushed down the stairs and is paralyzed. I was about ready to kill myself to escape all the rich white juvenile male angst. :p

Comment #55: Bagelsan  on  12/08  at  06:54 PM

Stoney321’s exposition on the LDS memes running rampant through Twilight made my day. Go check it out. Bjork, Ginger Spice, Heidi Klum, and the PROPHET himself make cameos.

And, FWIW, stop any young girl who wants to read these books. What a horrible anti-feminist, misogynistic, anti-human relationship message!

Comment #56: AnthroBabe  on  12/08  at  07:01 PM

Okay, riddle me this: my mother has told me that this series is REQUIRED READING in schools. Why? What literary merit could this have that the superior Harry Potter series doesn’t? It has the same amount of mysticism, but the sex-role conformity means the Christers won’t complain

Well, first you mean “in some schools”. It’s pedantic, but it’s an important point. Secondly, those schools that require it as part of the ELA curriculm do so for a very simple reason: Most of their students are reading it already.

It’s not rocket science to understand that if you want to encourage children to read, and to—later—think about what they’ve read, it’s best to incorporate a few books they actually like. (Why Twilight as opposed to Harry Potter? They’re done reading Harry Potter. No new books!).

So the reading list for our local junior high is rather heavily sprinkled with popular books for that age range, including the Twilight (which isn’t mandatory—we’re way too conservative and Christian here) books.

As for the books proper—I haven’t read them, but my wife describes tham as “What a 14 year old Mormon who desperately wanted to be Goth but wasn’t allowed to would have written”. IIRC, she also stated the books seemed to parallel her religious views on sex and chastity rather obviously.

Comment #57: Morat20  on  12/08  at  07:15 PM

Ok, I haven’t read any of the books, but I did read summaries once I found out about the books and all the fervor around them (read here for lots of lulz: http://cleolinda.livejournal.com/602881.html there, are links to the rest of her writing about it), so I kinda mostly know what’s going on in the books. This quote here:

Bella’s fervent hope—one that will not be realized until the final novel—is that Edward will ravage her, and that they will be joined forever; the harrowing pain that is said to be the victim’s lot at the time of consummation means nothing to her. She loves him and wants to make a gift to him of her physical body—an act fraught with ambiguous dangers (the Twilight series so resonates with girls because it perfectly encapsulates the giddiness and the rapture—and the menace—that inherently accompany romance and sex for them).

is what made me WTF. One of the few (perhaps only) redeeming things about the books is that Edward is super hot and Bella actually expresses desires of her own in wanting to jump his bones all the time. This pretty blatantly reverses the typical stereotype - she was the one lusting for him and he was being keeper of teh sex. (There was one other thing where she doesn’t really want to get married so young right out of high school, but then she does anyway, so that’s really only 1/2 a redeeming thing.) So pretty much Flanagan is the one who’s stealing Bella’s role as a willful actor and turning her desire for sex into some fucked up Christian view of A Gift. She doesn’t want Edward to ravage her, she wants to ravage him (see here for evidence: http://cleolinda.livejournal.com/630806.html). The reason she doesn’t care about it being potentially harmful to her (since vampires are super strong and can’t control their strength in sparkly Twilight land) is because she’s impulsive and doesn’t think about the consequences of her actions (or she’s just really horny), not because she’s being super feminine submissive to the Great Male Will.

My theory here is that some girls and women want sparkly vampire romance, and they will take it served with fucked up gender roles because that’s how they can get it. I don’t really goddamn know how this series took off over any others, but it can’t be because of the excellent prose or compelling plot, and is probably just a coincidence of people exponentially becoming more interested in something as more people are talking about it. I’m willing to bet that if someone wrote a feminist version of sparkly vampire romance, and cast Robert Pattinson as the male lead in the movie, it’d have just as many squealing fangirls running after it.

Comment #58: HeatherMae  on  12/08  at  07:15 PM

Someone above asked if more than teen girls read these horrid Twilight novels and as annejumps has already pointed out, yes, they do. They’re called “Twilight Moms” and they’re legion and just as obsessed with Twilight as their daughters are. If you’ve read Stoney321’s blog about it it seems as those Stephenie Meyers might be an unhappy wife who wrote the novels as a form of escape (they are based on a dream she had about this really, really hot guy). I’d further guess that a lot of the older moms/wives who are so into these novels are also projecting themselves into the character, wishing for an “Edward” of their own while they do the dishes and tend to the children.*

And HeatherMae, if you read Stoney321’s take, it seems Mormon men (and she points out that Edward is probably a substitute for Joseph Smith himself) are the keepers of morality in their household so it makes perfect sense that Bella is something Edward has to “control” by denying her sex, because he’s “protecting” her from “harm” a.k.a morally corrupting herself before she is married. And he won’t have sex with her (or turn her into a vampire) before they are married, so even though she wants sex seemingly like a male protagonist would, she’s kept in check by the object of her affection.

 

*for the sake or argument I’ll just say that there are probably women, young and older alike, who like these books because to them they’re entertaining. I’ll say “entertaining” as opposed to “well written” because I’ve read the first book and chapters of the last and Stephenie Meyer should never be allowed near a keyboard again.

Comment #59: UltraMagnus  on  12/08  at  08:15 PM

Considering my entire reading list in high school was book after book about young white men (no, wait, that’s a lie, we read “Native Son”, which is about a young *black* man) I think I have a pretty decent idea how it “looks from the other side”.

Really?  What is “it” in my comment above, then?

Comment #60: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  12/08  at  08:26 PM

You might find that “it” neatly described in the block of text both you and I quoted.

Comment #61: Bagelsan  on  12/08  at  08:36 PM

Someone above asked if more than teen girls read these horrid Twilight novels and as annejumps has already pointed out, yes, they do. They’re called “Twilight Moms” and they’re legion and just as obsessed with Twilight as their daughters are. If you’ve read Stoney321’s blog about it it seems as those Stephenie Meyers might be an unhappy wife who wrote the novels as a form of escape (they are based on a dream she had about this really, really hot guy). I’d further guess that a lot of the older moms/wives who are so into these novels are also projecting themselves into the character, wishing for an “Edward” of their own while they do the dishes and tend to the children.*

This.

My one quibble: I think it’s just wives/moms period (you’d be amazed how apeshit the SAHMs to young children are over this series).  They have husbands who will not do their fair share of the work at home but want a fucking parade every time they deign to lower themselves to doing anything, who take for granted all that their wives do and call staying at home “not work,” who complain when their wives spend money on car registrations but then turn around and go on a golf weekend with their buddies, etc.  These women already are submissive to the men in their lives but don’t feel protected and even particularly loved or appreciated.  Twilight allows these women to envision a scenario in which the power dynamic of the relationship is essentially the same but the outcome is different—it’s a way to avoid the thorny truth that they really need to change the power dynamic because it does not and will not work.

If the hype was not enough to keep me away (it is), then the story itself would.

Comment #62: history_mom  on  12/08  at  09:15 PM

Oh man, Twilight. *wanders out of her lurker’s den and dons her hat of “I am the demograph being discussed” authority*

My sister and my mom have both read the whole series. At least they both admit it’s terribly written; my sister says it’s a guilty pleasure even though all her friends are talking about it (my sister is fifteen), and mom enjoys them partly because of the romance and partly because of how entertainingly *bad* they are (Mostly the latter, I think).

What comes across most often when I talk to them about it though is that what they’ve both really, really latched onto is the “no sex until marriage!” bit. Everything else about the story is secondary. The fact that it’s bad, the fact that the characters are flat and terrible, the fact that everything is so disgustingly awful can be ignored, because they’re just so thankful that they have a (vampire) romance that fits within that single moral. Kind of disturbing to see from the outside, actually.

I also have a few friends who like, particularly, Edward. Not for his personality or because of the story. But because getting bitten by a vampire is hawt, and because there aren’t any real alternatives that they can get access to without lots of parental freaking out, so they have to tolerate the bad writing and sparkles.

Oooooh, and the Tale of the Chalk Professor. Third Christian Ethics class in (I live in saskatchewan, catholic education is still publicly funded disgustingly enough), and we get to hear that anecdote. Everybody was stuck on how HORRIBLE it was that the professor was such a jerk to a Poor! Persecuted! (Christian!) Religious! Person!. The number of times I have to hear “we’re so lucky we can have Mass in this country!” in a week is appalling, they make it sound like all other countries are run by crazy militant atheists who shoot people who think the word “god”. I’m never sure if I should laugh or cry when I hear people talking like that. I’m soooooo glad this is my last year of institutionalized bullshit, let me tell you.

Comment #63: Mercury  on  12/08  at  09:26 PM

Oh thank the Disco Ball no one said that, or you’d have a point.

From the next-to-last paragraph of Amanda’s article:

” In high school, especially, young men completely rule your life. They are the stars, and young women are the decoration.  “

I didn’t know I “ruled” the girls at my high school.  I sure wish I had known that at the time.  I would have gone up to the homecoming queen and said “I am a boy and you are a girl, therefore you must do what I say” and she would have, because boys “rule” high school.

Comment #64: Notorious P.A.T.  on  12/08  at  09:56 PM

I didn’t know I “ruled” the girls at my high school.  I sure wish I had known that at the time.  I would have gone up to the homecoming queen and said “I am a boy and you are a girl, therefore you must do what I say” and she would have, because boys “rule” high school.

You could have done that, but her actual ruler, the quarterback, probably would have kicked your ass for your presumption.  And then she probably would have had to listen to him scream at her for a whole evening about how horrible she was for leading you on.

Comment #65: Mnemosyne  on  12/08  at  10:29 PM

Flanagan is a piece of work. In the link to the vampire review, she says some things that may well have been over the top in the 1950s - implies that girls do most of their emotional growth at the time of puberty, while boys are calm rational creatures that no, absolutely do not have questions about sexuality and their place in the boy hierarchy.

OK, I admit, when I was 12 I read Gone With The Wind. When I was 15 or 16, I read The Happy Hooker, partly in spoof mode. But these trash retrograde items weren’t the only things I read. I was reading Dickens, middlebrow stuff like The Good Earth, and reasonably decent historical fiction (a lot of Mary Renault, one Marguerite Duras). And I read more non-fiction than fiction (and still do). By the time I was 17, I had decent taste in fiction, aside from an addiction to the trashier realms of SFF: Star Trek:TOG novels, Dune, and such.

Comment #66: NancyP  on  12/08  at  10:29 PM

Cynthia Heimel theorized that the appeal of the bad boy is that he’s allowed to do all the things insecure, powerless girls wish they could do.  Instead of admitting you want to ride a motorcycle and cut class and fly around playing Super Sparkle Baseball with vampires, you latch onto a tough, dangerous guy who can do those things for you.  Most women grow out of the fantasy as they get older and a) attain enough power in their lives that they don’t need a surrogate to have fun in their place, and b) learn through experience that real-life bad boys are a pain in the ass.

Of course, some women never grow out of it.  The other night I saw a couple of middle-aged ladies walking down the street in matching purple T-shirts.  One had a picture of Edward from the movie, and the other had the legend “Team Edward.”  Yes.

Comment #67: Shaenon  on  12/08  at  11:16 PM

This comic explains my problems with these damn books perfectly.

Comment #68: Devonian  on  12/08  at  11:30 PM

I didn’t know I “ruled” the girls at my high school.  I sure wish I had known that at the time.  I would have gone up to the homecoming queen and said “I am a boy and you are a girl, therefore you must do what I say” and she would have, because boys “rule” high school.

Wow, way to get sympathy for your woes from a group of women. “My adolescence sucked because I didn’t get to make myself feel better by making girls like you miserable.”

Comment #69: junk science  on  12/08  at  11:48 PM

That boys have carte blanche to take out their woes by degrading girls doesn’t mean their woes aren’t real, anymore than white working class people who lord it over black people aren’t suffering their own woes.

There are also lots of people who have woes and do not degrade or lord it over anyone.  White boys for ethical self-loathing!

Comment #70: FlipYrWhig  on  12/09  at  12:42 AM

I didn’t know I “ruled” the girls at my high school.  I sure wish I had known that at the time.  I would have gone up to the homecoming queen and said “I am a boy and you are a girl, therefore you must do what I say” and she would have

Um, that’s getting close to a rather creepy place.

Comment #71: FlipYrWhig  on  12/09  at  12:43 AM

And my teacher the next year told me, when asked why we only read stuff by white men about white men, that he wasn’t “familiar with any female authors from before the 20th century.”

Bagelsan, I realize the power dynamic you were dealing with made it impossible, but I wish you could have thrown Mary Shelley and Jane Austen right in his face.

Comment #72: Sour Kraut  on  12/09  at  01:01 AM

Boy, you have no idea how it looks from the other side…

I do.

I was…well, I wasn’t high caste, but the general High School caste system didn’t know what to do with me.  I didn’t belong to any established clique (unless you count my two best friends, guys I’m still close to today, who I shared nights of D&D;and bad movies with), and I was quite passive, but I had a certain prestige as the Writer In Residence.  Seriously.  I got invited to the Field Hockey season-end banquet because the poems about them I published in the school newspaper impressed them (yes, I had a crush on the entire team.  Sue me.).  Still, I wasn’t very high on anybody’s totem pole: I didn’t get invited to many parties and I never did get any dates from girls my own age (though girls a year or two younger asked me out on occasion…), so I guess I’m lucky that the higher-ranking ones in my class used their powers for good, or at least did no harm: the star quarterback, on the varsity team since he was a sophomore, was a perfectly nice fellow who earned his own B’s in the advanced classes.  Still, it’s never fun to be on the Outside.

Want to know what I saw from your other side?

Like I said above, I was a fairly passive boy, and I guess that made me seem unthreatening to a lot of the girls.  It probably helped that I was usually the only boy in the group, and listened when they talked instead of trying to talk over them.  Want to know what I heard?  I heard from the girl who gave her first blowjob (which she claimed she ended up enjoying, make of that what you will) because her boyfriend refused to return her heirloom necklace until she put out in some way.  I heard another girl complain about how “slick” her boyfriend was at slipping off the condom mid-intercourse.  And one after another talking about having sex with their boyfriends not because they wanted to, but because he insisted or they “owed” him.  Even the higher-caste girls weren’t immune to this; one girl in the advanced-placement classes didn’t smile for the entire year or so that she dated one of the handsomer, but crueler members of our class.  That story had a happier ending – she learned to smile again when she started dating the boy who wore blue jeans and boots when he took her to the junior prom – but for all her status, she didn’t feel empowered to dump her beautiful bad boy the whole time he was mistreating her. 

Girls got into brutal fights over cheating boys – body slams and broken noses – without daring to ask whether the heel in question was worth it, because being with anyone was better than being with no one. 

The rumor mill could bring down anyone – from the (by her own admission, sexually precocious) low-caste girl who was accused of fellating a horse to the high-caste girl who was accused of greeting her boyfriend at the door naked and being caught fucking her own bedpost (she was Just That Horny, you see). 

And let’s not forget the endless little humiliations and cruelties: the girl who was called a slut from seventh grade on despite being a virgin because she wore tight clothes; the bra-snapping that began at the same time and never really ended; the dancer who was in a gracefully spread-legged crouch during an Earth Science lab that involved running water, and had the teacher joke “at least the position fits”; the girl who was teased so much in middle school for being flat-chested that she placed a personal ad in the last issue of the school paper of our senior year, signing herself “twin peaks” and asking “how do you like me now?” (yes, she’d developed a bit by then). 

I overheard a rather popular fellow joke, in mixed company: “Sometimes you just need to date rape.”  It got a laugh. 

But I have to think that the incident that illustrates Amanda’s point the best was one of the almost-harmless, blink-and-you’ll-miss-it kind.  The abovementioned quarterback was dating a girl who was as close as humanly possible to being him while having different genitalia: advanced classes, decorated athlete, etc.  At one point, the quarterback was showing his best buddy her driver’s license (don’t ask me why he had it).  The buddy pointed at the “Sex: F” section and said “What does that mean?  Frequently?”

She was in the same caste as the quarterback, and if she was having frequent sex, it was with him, but implying she was having frequent sex put her in her place as a slut without causing him any damage at all.  I think that sums it all up perfectly.

Comment #73: Seraph  on  12/09  at  01:05 AM

I agreed to a deal wherupon I got to chaperone eight “Twilight” obsessed teenaged girls at the opening night of the movie in return for their participation in a debate tournament. They were totally, 100% apeshit crazy about the books, and about that movie.  Some of them practically hyperventilated the first time they showed Edward on screen.  The appeal of the movie was obvious enough to me- its total eye candy.  The boys- even the lame “normal” boys- are all cute, and every “flavor” of teen girl fantasy is represented.  The movie itself was schlock, but I’ve got to admit- Pattinson IS a hottie, even when he sparkles.  The girls who are gushing over this stuff today will be laughing at it in a few years. 

I remember being into the vampire sex thing too when I was a young teen.  It offers everything- guilt free taboo sex (no one can resist a vampire) with a sexy, dark, magic man that follows proscribed gender norms (powerful vamp, powerless mortal) without oficially subscribing to them. And of course, this taboo relationship can lead to the assumption of super cool powers and immortality, which just sweetens the deal. I think the teen girl obsession with vampire romance has everything to do with the tension between budding sexuality, conventional gender roles and the desire to “fit in” , and a desire to transcend those very same power dynamics.  If the quality of the movie is any indicator, the success of the “Twilight” franchise is NOT based on the literary merit of the works.

Comment #74: Neko Onna  on  12/09  at  01:37 AM

re: the Twilight pic: what the hell, ‘vampires’ running around in broad daylight?  I know it’s ALWAYS cloudy in Forks, WA, but that’s just b.s. 

>;^)

Comment #75: Eric, Rejector of Memez  on  12/09  at  02:14 AM

ROTFLMAO—- great stuff, good links:  say what you will, the “Twilight” series has spawned some of the funniest blog & webcomic postings of all time.  Perhaps we should cut it some slack on that merit.

Comment #76: Eric, Rejector of Memez  on  12/09  at  02:24 AM

re: the Twilight pic: what the hell, ‘vampires’ running around in broad daylight?  I know it’s ALWAYS cloudy in Forks, WA, but that’s just b.s.

You must be the last person in the western world to hear: Twilight vamps don’t burn in sunlight, they sparkle.  That’s why they hide from the sun: because it will reveal them as the amazing superhumans they are.

I wish I were kidding. 

Edward Cullen is the Marty Stu from Hell.

Comment #77: Seraph  on  12/09  at  02:26 AM

I always think of this when I think of boy bands too…they’re always a little femmy, because that’s reassuring to lots of girls at that age.

I always marveled how androgynous the photos in “Tiger Beat” were—you’d be hard pressed (ha!) to determine the gender of a lot of the young men in that thing.

Comment #78: Eric, Rejector of Memez  on  12/09  at  02:27 AM

To elaborate: Twilight vamps are the most powerful vamps I’ve ever seen short of elders fifth generation or older in the old World of Darkness.  Worse, they lack any vampiric weaknesses, traditional or otherwise. 

Most vampire stories at least give lip services to the fact that vampires are blood-drinking night monsters, no longer human; unclean things that can be harmed or driven away by purifiers like holy water, holy symbols, sunlight, garlic, or fire (Twilight vamps can be burned to Final Death, but they’re no more flammable than anyone else, and good luck to the human trying to burn them).  Most vampire romances manage to wring a bit of angst out of these things - how the vampire can never see their beloved in the sunlight, and how the beloved will lose the sunlight themselves if they join them.  Anything pure that they love is tainted and destroyed.

Twilight?  None of that.  The reason they hide from bright sunlight is so that people won’t realize how godly they are.  And Our Heroine thinks that the predatory monster slipping into her room at night to watch her sleep is endearing, and she’s flattered when Edward openly tells her that her blood is like a fix cooking under an addict’s nose for him.

Comment #79: Seraph  on  12/09  at  02:39 AM

I’m old enough to remember when Rolling Stone ran an article about David Cassidy(who was a hot, touring performer at one time, this was the 70s folks…....)

Anywoo, the big contretemps wasn’t the content of the article, it was a picture demonstrating clearly that David Cassidy was a sexually mature male. 

That chilled it for a lot of his fans, apparently, or at least took them out of the fantasy land that he was ‘unthreatening”.

Here’s some Tiger Beat, I was reading the National Lampoon at that time, FWIW smile

Seraph:  it sounds like Twilight’s “vampires” are a lot more like angels.

Comment #81: FlipYrWhig  on  12/09  at  02:58 AM

Seraph:  it sounds like Twilight’s “vampires” are a lot more like angels.

Indeed.  Makes you wonder why they’re hiding at all, really.  There’s no way for even modern humans to attack them effectively, short of an air strike.  No staking them as they sleep in their coffins or dragging them out into the sunlight for these bloodsuckers.

Say - I only made it about 3/4 of the way through the first book before I couldn’t take it anymore.  Does Stephenie Meyer ever go into why the vamps as a race didn’t set themselves up as shining gods of war and start demanding blood sacrifices back in the day, or did she not think it through that far?

Comment #82: Seraph  on  12/09  at  03:20 AM

Twilight as a series becomes better one of two ways: Lighten up or darken the hell out of it.
mentally voice Edward as Count Von Count.
Or provide your own narration of the entire cast being murdered horrifically. My preferred version involves a dedicated clergyman who bears a marked resemblance to Tim Curry and a talent for the villain monologue.

Comment #83: karpad  on  12/09  at  03:25 AM

Seraph - The Vampires in Twilight had a mention of at least one such ‘shining gods’ pair of vampires, in Romania in antiquity.  The vampires of the more modern times have been unable to do that because these vampires have difficulty making bonds.  They typically travel in groups of fewer than three.  There is a group of three powerful vampires in Italy that have gathered and rule over several younger and more gullible vamps, and they set and enforce the rule for secrecy.  Our Sparkly Friends have a large family because they are ‘veggy vamps’ who drink animal blood and that makes them less volatile than other vamps. (The concept of vamps who drink the blood of predatory animals equating with vegitarians just doesn’t quite work for me)

I admit it…I read the Cleolinda summaries of the books, but eventually I had to read them to form my own opinion.  Went through them last week, so it’s all still really fresh and tender when you press on it.  Reading them back to back, Bella lost most of her personality at about the time that Edward started speaking to her, and she never really got it back.  It’s actually quite amusing to read the excerpt from ‘Midnight Sun’ available on Stephanie Meyer’s site… It’s a retelling of Twilight from Edward’s perspective, so we get to listen to him calculate trajectories on the best way to slaughter his high school science class the first time he meets Bella.  Since he never sleeps, he spends more time obsessing over Bella than she ever spent obsessing over him.  The sheer fixation these two characters exhibit is certainly not healthy to teach to children.  But what’s really sad is how one dimensional ALL the characters are.  *snore*  It reads like Meyers really didn’t have much of a plan to start with, and just said ok, so we have Sparkleboy and Self-Esteemvoid, now we need a pretty one, a quirky one, a sporty one and a gawky one….throw in someone to fluff the pillows, and a doctor to pay for it all…poof!

Comment #84: Delishka  on  12/09  at  06:15 AM

I haven’t read any of these books, but they seem like prime fundie-loon material.  Let’s see, girl throws away any hope for normal emotional and sexual development and gives up her autonomy in order to pursue a relationship with a bloodthirsty superbeing in the hopes of becoming immortal… seems like this book has been written numerous times by desert-dwelling Bronze Agers!

Comment #85: Big Bad Bald Bastard  on  12/09  at  11:49 AM

Hmm. I’m trying to remember my teenage years… I sort of think I had a vampire/dangerous-boy fetish, too. I was raisied in a very fundie environment, and I agree with whoever said that vampire sex is guilt-free because, hey, you simply CANNOT SAY NO to a vampire. Ah, glamours.

And, yeah, I was one of only a handful of girls in a plethora of boys at our local church, and most of them treated me like shit when there was someone else to witness, so maybe I figured a bad boy was what I was stuck with, and at least I could fantasize about a bad boy who worshipped me and would beat up all the other bad boys. Better than nothing, right?

I’d like to think I’m pretty well-adjusted nowdays. I don’t hang with Bad Boys OR Nice Guys, which means (for those of you following my massively boring love life, and I KNOW you are!!) that I’m single again, heh. Then again, it took WAY too long for me to get to this level of independence, so maybe the Bad Boy obessesion isn’t healthy.

Thank the gods I don’t have a teenager - I don’t like to ban books, but this Twilight sounds truly henious. I guess it’s “serious conversation” time, but what if it backfires? Tricky.

Who said boy bands are femmy to be less threatening? That’s brillant, I never thuoght of that, but it’s true.

Comment #86: Ellen  on  12/09  at  01:06 PM

You must be the last person in the western world to hear: Twilight vamps don’t burn in sunlight, they sparkle.

::gobsmacked::  !!!!111!!eleventy!  Ohhhh, how I miss that blessed state of ignorance.

So, is this sparkling some kinda low-level fusion?—no really, WHAT THE FUCK?  The one major weakness of vampires and this twit “writer” throws it away?  Surely someone can hit her with a brick.

Comment #87: Eric, Rejector of Memez  on  12/09  at  04:20 PM

and she’s flattered when Edward openly tells her that her blood is like a fix cooking under an addict’s nose for him.

::dryly:: Would she be as flattered if she knew ANYBODY’S blood would have the same effect.

Really, my respect for YA readers has plummeted.

Comment #88: Eric, Rejector of Memez  on  12/09  at  04:30 PM

Here’s some Tiger Beat, I was reading the National Lampoon at that time, FWIW

Sounding a little defensive there, boyo.

Comment #89: Eric, Rejector of Memez  on  12/09  at  04:32 PM

Eric, apparently Bella’s blood is SUPER-POTENT because, well, she’s awesome and special and pretty and, I dunno. That’s why Edward has a hard time controlling himself around her.

A friend was kinda into these books and tried to explain this to me. I told him that (a) it was lame, and (b) if vampires have trouble controlling themselves around the smell of open blood, then by god, it makes PERFECT sense to send the 100-year-old boy vampire to high school where, on any given day, likely 25% of the female population will be on her period. Geez. (I was rewarded with a blush - apparently he hadn’t thought of that.)

Comment #90: Ellen  on  12/09  at  04:48 PM

And my teacher the next year told me, when asked why we only read stuff by white men about white men, that he wasn’t “familiar with any female authors from before the 20th century.”

Bagelsan, I realize the power dynamic you were dealing with made it impossible, but I wish you could have thrown Mary Shelley and Jane Austen right in his face.

Because I’m just sassy like that, I came back the next day and loaned him a book my mom owned called “100 Great Women Authors” or something like that. But he gave it back a month later saying he never got the time to read it… 9.9 Apparently he was too busy with the new baby girl he and his wife just had, no joke.

Regarding Twilight, my sister gave me the description (I can’t bring myself to read it) and I was *rolling* on the floor. She said that apparently there’s some kind of genetic thing going on where vampires and humans and werewolves (I think?) all have different numbers of chromosomes, and mixed offspring have *the average* of the parents’ numbers. Please, please tell me this is true. :D

Comment #91: Bagelsan  on  12/09  at  05:25 PM

::gobsmacked::  !!!!111!!eleventy!  Ohhhh, how I miss that blessed state of ignorance.

Yeah, I had the same reaction.  I think a lot of people did.

So, is this sparkling some kinda low-level fusion?

That would make the transition from Dracula to Superman pretty much complete, wouldn’t it?  But no.  Twilight vamps’ skin becomes some sort of crystalline substance when they Change, which explains their invulnerability.  It also may explain why they’re always cold instead of merely room-temperatured, something that (along with the “Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex” factor) no doubt added to Bella’s discomfort on the wedding night. 

Please don’t ask me to explain why the crystal skin isn’t absolutely rigid.  I’ve already given it more thought than Meyers did.

Comment #92: Seraph  on  12/09  at  05:41 PM

Eric, apparently Bella’s blood is SUPER-POTENT because, well, she’s awesome and special and pretty and, I dunno. That’s why Edward has a hard time controlling himself around her.

But she’s only super-tempting for him.  To the rest of his family, she smells tasty enough, but nothing irresistible.  It’s yet another sign of how they’re SO TOTALLY MADE AND DESTINED FOR EACH OTHER OMIGOD SQUEEEE!

Once again, I wish to God I was kidding.

Comment #93: Seraph  on  12/09  at  05:44 PM

Please don’t ask me to explain why the crystal skin isn’t absolutely rigid.  I’ve already given it more thought than Meyers did.

Dear god, every new thing I find out about these books just makes me loathe them.

Does that make me a ‘hater’? DOES IT?!? Because I just hate to be hateful. But, dear gods…!

That wedding night scene creeped me out (read it online). She passes out and wakes up with the equivalent of a full-body bruise? Because he got ‘carried away’? I can’t decide if that’s rape or kink, but surely it’s SOME form of assault?

Oh, yeah, and the “I will carry my baby to term even if it kills me” theme is so very feminist. *eyeroll*

Seraph, do I sense I Slactivist-type ripping in your future? You’re always ON when it comes to awesome posts, but your Twilight posts are fantastic.

Comment #94: Ellen  on  12/09  at  05:50 PM

Oh, and piling on to the DESTINED FOR EACH OTHER, I suppose it should be mentioned that Bella’s Werewolf-Suitor loves her because he somehow senses that HER DAUGHTER will be his DESTINED BELOVED, and he, you know, gets this concept while the kid is an infant.

Which means that the darling babe has her knight in shining armor all mapped out for her and she never has to even lift a finger or give it another thought. That’s wish fulfillment on a whole new level of creep. (And very FLDS, when you consider the usual husband/wife age difference…)

Comment #95: Ellen  on  12/09  at  05:53 PM

To elaborate: Twilight vamps are the most powerful vamps I’ve ever seen short of elders fifth generation or older in the old World of Darkness.  Worse, they lack any vampiric weaknesses, traditional or otherwise.

Most vampire stories at least give lip services to the fact that vampires are blood-drinking night monsters, no longer human; unclean things that can be harmed or driven away by purifiers like holy water, holy symbols, sunlight, garlic, or fire (Twilight vamps can be burned to Final Death, but they’re no more flammable than anyone else, and good luck to the human trying to burn them).  Most vampire romances manage to wring a bit of angst out of these things - how the vampire can never see their beloved in the sunlight, and how the beloved will lose the sunlight themselves if they join them.  Anything pure that they love is tainted and destroyed.

I have no intention of ever reading these books(*), but I do remember the time when vampires started turning from the Steven King “Salem’s Lot” version to these types in the mainstream.  I think it started when Poppy Z Brite started being read by people who didn’t get that the intended audence was people with a complex relationship with the idea of suicide.

(*) And, having just said that, I realised I said the same once about Ayn Rand.  And then ploughed doggedly through “Atlas Shrugged” for a Usenet discussion.

Comment #96: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  12/09  at  05:59 PM

<blockquote>Seraph, do I sense I Slactivist-type ripping in your future? You’re always ON when it comes to awesome posts, but your Twilight posts are fantastic.<blockquote>

Not me.  I lack Fred’s patience - how many years did he spend on the first Left Behind book alone? - and I couldn’t force myself all the way through the first book, let alone the whole series.

No, if you’re looking for a nice, concise tear-down of some of the series’s more glaring flaws, take a look here. (If you have to sign in first, you’re looking for the “Are you a fan (or not?) Read my compiled rebuttals” thread in the “Twilight Series Discussion” section). 

Thanks for the kind words, though.

Comment #97: Seraph  on  12/09  at  06:23 PM

That would make the transition from Dracula to Superman pretty much complete, wouldn’t it?

To really bring _everything_ full circle, the vampires would have to have detectable “midichlorians” in their bloodstreams, like Anakin Skywalker.

Comment #98: FlipYrWhig  on  12/09  at  06:27 PM

That would make the transition from Dracula to Superman pretty much complete, wouldn’t it?

To really bring _everything_ full circle, the vampires would have to have detectable “midichlorians” in their bloodstreams, like Anakin Skywalker.

I’m being literal.  Superman has super powers on Earth because Kryptonians are kinda-sorta photosynthetic: he absorbs the energy from our Sun and uses it to power his abilities (they absorb all kinds of solar radiation, actually - red-sun radiation doesn’t contain enough energy to power a Kryptonian’s super-abilities, but it does crowd out more useful yellow-sun radiation, leaving the Kryptonian powerless.  Stick one under a blue sun, and the situation gets really out of hand).  If the Sparkly!Vamps did have some kind of fusion instead of diamond skin, like Eric joked, then it would mean that Stephenie Meyers had given up all pretense that these were actual vampires.

Comment #99: Seraph  on  12/09  at  06:38 PM

Ah.  I’m out of my depth on monster and hero pseudoscience. 

Maybe someone could behead the vampires with a silver lightsaber, in a Highlander/werewolf/Star Wars combo.  It would certainly be gratifying to try.

Comment #100: FlipYrWhig  on  12/09  at  06:59 PM

She said that apparently there’s some kind of genetic thing going on where vampires and humans and werewolves (I think?) all have different numbers of chromosomes, and mixed offspring have *the average* of the parents’ numbers.

It gets worse when they have twins. The genes divide among the children. One gets the dominant genes, while the other gets only the FLAWED recessive genes.

Comment #101: karpad  on  12/09  at  07:32 PM

Wait, Seraph, if the vampires are photosynthetic a la Superman, then do they get weak at night? Did we turn the vampier myth THAT upside down?!? Huhn?

Comment #102: Ellen  on  12/09  at  07:33 PM

Maybe someone could behead the vampires with a silver lightsaber, in a Highlander/werewolf/Star Wars combo.

Hmm.  Nah.  The energy of the lightsaber would just reflect off the sparkles or something.

Seriously.  Challenge neither the Mary Sue nor the Marty Stu, for they are invincible.

Comment #103: Seraph  on  12/09  at  07:34 PM

Karpad,

Well, that would really muck up the standard “twin study” used so successfully in psychological fields. Are we doomed to never know the intricacies of the Vampire / Werewolf mind? *sigh*

So…the author can’t Wiki the basics of biology? Don’t they employ editors anymore? DON’T THEY?

Comment #104: Ellen  on  12/09  at  07:35 PM

well, I’m sure she didn’t wiki biology, but mine was actually not based on the contents, but instead another reference to more popular scifi crazy things.

Comment #105: karpad  on  12/09  at  07:56 PM

I forget who asked it upthread, but yes, I have seen True Blood on HBO and I am currently reading the books that the show is (loosely) based on.  I am impressed with how entertaining and relatively feminist they are.  The first in the series is “Dead Until Dark” by Charlaine Harris, BTW.

And I work at a Borders where I am the president of the unifficial Borders Staff Twilight Haterz Club.  About a third of the staff loves the books, a third likes them but is embarassed about it, and the rest of us think that the first two groups must be under the control of some sort of alien parasite because when you work among hundereds of quality books all day, how could you possibly think that Twilight was not putridly horrible?

Maybe they are just trying not to be ungrateful for the fact that almost 20% of our sales dollars for the last month have been on Twilight related products.  We can’t keep the crap on the shelves.  Makes me sick.

Comment #106: GumbyAnne  on  12/09  at  08:02 PM

Um, that’s getting close to a rather creepy place.

It’s called “reductio ad absurdum”.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

Comment #107: Notorious P.A.T.  on  12/09  at  08:57 PM

Wow, way to get sympathy for your woes from a group of women. “My adolescence sucked because I didn’t get to make myself feel better by making girls like you miserable.”

So. . . the way to get the women here on my side is to say I DID make girls like you miserable?

Comment #108: Notorious P.A.T.  on  12/09  at  08:59 PM

Bagelsan, I realize the power dynamic you were dealing with made it impossible, but I wish you could have thrown Mary Shelley and Jane Austen right in his face.

Or Emily Dickinson.  This “teacher” sounds like a real blue-chipper.

Comment #109: Notorious P.A.T.  on  12/09  at  09:02 PM

“This comic explains my problems with these damn books perfectly. “

LOL!  That is hilarious.  Well-drawn, too.  Is that part of a series?  If so, where is the rest?

Comment #110: Notorious P.A.T.  on  12/09  at  09:13 PM

So. . . the way to get the women here on my side is to say I DID make girls like you miserable?

Hmm.  Wouldn’t bet on it.  Instead, you might consider looking back at HS with an adult’s perspective, instead of clinging to teenage resentments.  Go back and read my comment from last night at 11:05 PM, especially the story of the Quarterback’s girlfriend.  Surely you must have encountered similar situations?

Maybe the prom queen outranked you.  But where did she stand in her own clique?  Even if she was truly the alpha (that is to say, her status wouldn’t be hurt no matter what the Prom King said about her), what about the other girls in her clique?  What about the girls in yours?

Believe me, I know how miserable it can be to be a low-caste boy in high school.  But the fact remains that girls of all castes had problems and vulnerabilities that we just didn’t have.

Comment #111: Seraph  on  12/09  at  10:40 PM

LOL!  That is hilarious.  Well-drawn, too.  Is that part of a series?  If so, where is the rest?

It’s not a series as such, although the artist does have an off-and-on webcomic.  There’s only one other strip on this topic.  Take a look.

Comment #112: Seraph  on  12/09  at  10:44 PM

Thanks, Seraph.

The “homecoming queen”/“head cheerleader” archetype fetishizing doesn’t go over well with the 99.9% of women who were neither of those in school. It also can underline the way Nice Guys focus their energies, fantasies, and resentments on those archetypes while ignoring the vast majority of real women (as well as the realities behind those so-called “alphas”). The real homecoming queens and cheerleaders still had to deal with, say, rumors of being a slut *or* rumors of being frigid/teases, sometimes at the same time. Boys play no small part in gossip, even as gossip is derided as being a feminine frivolity.

Comment #113: annejumps  on  12/10  at  12:02 AM

Amanda’s concluding section in the original piece keeps coming back to the idea of _contempt_:  that high school boys are dismissive and vicious and basically hateful, with impunity, towards high school girls.  Maybe not uniformly, but as a group.  And, on top of that, it’s really about the best the girls can expect.  Really?  It’s that bad?  I don’t think I ever even heard much gossip about anyone’s sexual antics.  Or, if I did, I assumed everyone was making shit up.  Maybe my high school was big enough that it was more possible to just fade away and give up on trying to figure out the rules.  Or maybe nerdy girls don’t get the same options nerdy boys like me did.

Comment #114: FlipYrWhig  on  12/10  at  03:59 AM

Or, to be briefer about it, I wonder how much stuff I had no idea was even happening—and how much that ignorance may have _helped_ my future psychological development.

Comment #115: FlipYrWhig  on  12/10  at  04:01 AM

FlipYrWhig, I don’t think it’s that boys are all the time contemptuous, but that it’s always an acceptable go-to option for them to give girls a lesson in who’s boss. It’s always a reserve tactic in case a girl gets out of line.

Comment #116: annejumps  on  12/10  at  11:14 AM

@annejumps—I get it socially:  high school boys set the agenda, set trends, etc., and girls are placed on a lower plane.  But what I’m struggling with is how that is simultaneously sexualized, that frat-boys-in-training despise and objectify women (entirely believable) and at the same time “you also are awakening sexually and want to engage with them for romantic and sexual purposes.”  I don’t want to pull the NiceGuy gambit but, you know, you really don’t have to take that kind of abuse.  Maybe in high school it feels like you do.

Comment #117: FlipYrWhig  on  12/10  at  12:59 PM

But what I’m struggling with is how that is simultaneously sexualized, that frat-boys-in-training despise and objectify women (entirely believable) and at the same time “you also are awakening sexually and want to engage with them for romantic and sexual purposes.”

It’s partly a status thing in the status-crazy world of high school (if the quarterback starts dating someone outside of his clique, her status is immediately increased).  But it’s also that 90% of the lower-status guys are spending their time drooling over the cheerleader/homecoming queen and ignoring the girls in their own social class (so to speak). 

Which would hurt less, being rejected by the quarterback who you know is way out of your league anyway, or being rejected by a peer who’s obsessed with the homecoming queen?

Comment #118: Mnemosyne  on  12/10  at  01:22 PM

Man, thank goodness I went to all-girls school. 
Also, anyone who’s got kids about to start school, pleasen consider an all girls school.  You still get harrassed by boys, but not while you are trying to learn.

Comment #119: raspberryjamba  on  12/10  at  01:52 PM

Which would hurt less, being rejected by the quarterback who you know is way out of your league anyway, or being rejected by a peer who’s obsessed with the homecoming queen?

My solution was to fear rejection so intensely as to be paralyzed by indecision and unassertiveness.  U-S-A!  U-S-A!

Comment #120: FlipYrWhig  on  12/10  at  01:58 PM

FlipYrWhig -

There are some points you’re still missing. 

1) Girls are awakening sexually and want to engage someone for romantic and sexual purposes at that age.  So are boys.  It’s the age, it’s the hormones - it’s nature, and it would happen regardless of whatever cultural baggage they have to deal with.  Note, however, that the key word is want.  Some are too shy to act on these desires, some are unsuccessful (though I personally believe that if they are, it was because they were focused on someone they couldn’t have for some reason and would have no other; I had a “love-the-one-you’re-with” philosophy in High School, and it served me pretty well), and some choose to wait for whatever reason. 

2) Amanda’s point is not that the mistreatment is sexualized.  The Vampire Boyfriend is a boy who is more powerful, more attractive, cooler and older than any other - the ultimate alpha male, in other words - who uses his power to protect and even promote (via vampirization) Our Heroine.  He’s better than those high school boys and he treats me better than they ever would.  What more could a girl ask for? (Most don’t figure out the real answer to that until they get a little older).

3) Not all boys are contemptuous all the time, as annejumps points out.  Nor do I think that most actually think of themselves as enforcing some kind of social order.  Kids that age aren’t always that self-reflective.  Some, yes, are deliberately hateful or contemptuous - here I’m thinking of the guy who held the girl’s necklace hostage, or the one who liked to ditch the condom, or the harassing teacher.  Others used their contempt consciously, as a tool for control - you’re not like those other bitches (unless I decide you’re acting like a bitch tonight, in which case he knew exactly how to make you sorry for it).  Here I’m thinking of the beautiful bad boy and the girlfriend who never smiled.  For most, though, it wasn’t a matter of conscious thought.  The best buddy in the story of the Quarterback’s girlfriend held her no grudge; in fact, I would say they were friends.  It was just…funny that a girl should be so horny, though I doubt he could have told me why if I’d asked him.  Mind you, none of the above were limited to “frat-boys-in-training”. 

Personally, I think a lot of it had to do with which classes you took.  Seriously.  I took advanced classes all the way through, so I grew up surrounded by confident, ambitious girls who knew their own worth and took no crap - as did all of the other boys in my classes.  That kind of example had a definite effect.  Granted, most of us were still at least a little infected by patriarchy, but most of us also had some genuine respect and fellow-feeling for our female peers.  Even those who still thought bitches ain’t shit didn’t think it was okay to say so (at least not around our peers - a group they could define rather narrowly.  They were the true frat-boys-in-training).  Lower on the social-economic-academic ladder, where the girls were less confident (not that they were submissive little shrinking violets by any means - in situations where they were “allowed” to be, they were quite tough) and had never been taught their own worth, things got a little more obvious. 

4) Yes.  In high school, it feels like you do.  The girl I mentioned who gave her first blowjob because her necklace was being held hostage?  I don’t know how long she stayed with that particular guy, but she was rarely without a boyfriend, and I don’t know if she ever did the dumping, regardless of how she was treated.  Similarly, as I said before, many girls would fight each other over a cheating boyfriend rather than just dump his faithless ass.  It was better to have a bad boyfriend than none.  Again, less the case among girls who knew their own worth, but it could strike even there.

Comment #121: Seraph  on  12/10  at  02:46 PM

@ Seraph:  I was starting to wonder about the social-class angle myself.  If you feel like you want a long-term or lifetime partner, and it’s going to be someone from your town who’s more or less the same age and more or less the same background, I imagine that competition could get pretty fierce, because the pool is so limited.  I would have guessed that the girls I knew at all well in high school did not (appear to) accept this second-class status I’m hearing about here.  But, like I said, I was never in the loop, didn’t drive, didn’t go to parties, and may have been utterly ignorant of all the strangeness that was happening all around me.

It was an unquestioned assumption in my family that we were all going to college and dispersing throughout the world thereafter.  (That was true for a preponderance of the people in my relatively affluent town.)  If I had thought that I’d be making my life forever among the jerkwads I went to high school with, dear _God_ I would have been _miserable_.

Comment #122: FlipYrWhig  on  12/10  at  04:16 PM

Ok, thread probably (un?)dead (but hopefully not sparkly!); nevertheless:

Boy-girl Bullying In Middle Grades More Common Than Previously Thought</a>
ScienceDaily (Dec. 10, 2008) — Much more cross-gender bullying – specifically, unpopular boys harassing popular girls – occurs in later elementary school grades than previously thought, meaning educators should take reports of harassment from popular girls seriously, according to new research by a University of Illinois professor who studies child development.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081209221711.htm

Comment #123: Dan S.  on  12/10  at  11:19 PM

Ellen: Oh, and piling on to the DESTINED FOR EACH OTHER, I suppose it should be mentioned that Bella’s Werewolf-Suitor loves her because he somehow senses that HER DAUGHTER will be his DESTINED BELOVED, and he, you know, gets this concept while the kid is an infant.

Undead thread, etc., but I should point out that it’s a pretty old trope that’s now known as the Hikaru Genji Plan. Money quote:

“You never saw a real parent so jazzed to play whatever stupid kiddie sport their rugrat could think up. I’d seen Quil play peekaboo for an hour straight without getting bored. [...] Though I did think it sucked that he had a good fourteen years of monk-i-tude ahead of him until Claire was his age.”

Comment #124: grendelkhan  on  12/11  at  05:56 PM
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