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Next entry: Music Fridays: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us Edition Previous entry: The death penalty and our corrupted justice system

Was Brown a more timely decision than Roe?

SIGH: that is usually my reaction anymore to seeing yet another dude whip out the "I'm pro-choice but Roe was wrongly decided/decided too soon" argument.  Scott Lemieux is the champion of shooting that one down, so I tend to leave it to him.  But I have to respond to Garrett Epps of The American Prospect ruining what was otherwise an interesting article by arguing that Brown v. the Board of Education was correctly timed and Roe v. Wade was too soon, because the latter had such an appalling backlash.  You hear variations of this argument a lot, and the sole evidence for them is that anti-choicers are such loud-mouthed assholes and they're willing to attack the decision directly, in a way that no one is willing to do with Brown.  But that's extremely limited evidence for the assertion, especially since it focuses more on what people say than what they do.  It's true that people are less likely to openly condemn desegregation than abortion rights, but does that mean the backlash to desegregation (and all it means) was less severe than the backlash to abortion rights (and all they mean)?  I think this deserves a look, from a number of angles. 

Structural differences in the decisions.  If you want to compare Brown and Roe, you should make sure you're comparing apples to apples.  Initially, it may seem that you are: both decisions granted rights to oppressed people that were expected to lead to their betterment and help them obtain political, social, and economic equality. Both had political movements behind them.  That's where the similarities end, however.  The big difference is that Brown addresses what is functionally a structural inequality---they forced schools who had previously closed their doors to non-white students to open them up.  Roe, however, addresses an individual right. An individual now has a right to choose to abort or provide abortion.  Abortion was a criminal matter, and segregation a matter of public accommodation.  This difference structures the backlash to it.  Opponents of Brown realized right away that they could re-establish desegregation by changing the systems so they seemed compliant, but with Roe, that's harder to do. When you're dealing with people making private choices, it's much harder to control without invoking law enforcement. In a sense, they don't have a choice but to oppose Roe directly, because without being able to use law enforcement, they're kind of fucked. They've finally figured out a way to get around Roe, but it really hasn't been easy.  The fact that Brown openly invoked equal protection and Roe didn't also makes Roe easier to criticize without going on the record as being hostile to the abstract principle of equality.

The backlash to Brown has been more severe than the backlash to Roe in many ways. The National Guard wasn't called to let women get abortions.  In fact, what was remarkable about Roe was that it was implemented with relatively little fuss. The violence agaisnt abortion providers didn't start up until the anti-choice movement had really developed into a hardline fundamentalist terrorist breeding camp. They have to work themselves into a frenzy to commit violence.  For civil rights activists, violence was a constant problem from the get-go, and it was more frequent, and it was often less tied to organized hate groups. In fact, it still goes on. Not to downplay the ugliness against abortion providers in the slightest, but it's important to understand that both decisions and the movements around them have resulted in a terrorist response.

In addition,  Roe was implemented without that much of a fuss in rapid order.  Law enforcement immediately stopped throwing abortion providers in jail, and doctors started hanging out a shingle without much concern of running into the authorities. Brown was basically rejected in many communities, however.  (My high school didn't desegregate until more than 20 years after the decision, if I recall correctly.)  And when the authorities forced schools to segregate, local governments moved in rapid response by redrawing district lines, changing tax structures, and implementing policies that basically reinstituted segregation. Private schools shot up in rapid response to take the white kids that were being yanked from school. Busing was basically abandoned.  White flight intensified. The result? American schools are more segregated now than they were in the late 60s.  You know, when people were still openly flouting the decision. And Brown has had huge chunks of it functionally overturned in a way that is just as, if not more severe than the restrictions that have been placed on Roe

Meanwhile, while it's been getting harder to get an abortion in this country than it used to be, women who want one are likelier than not to get it.  It's not as good as it should be, but I think abortion rights are still doing better than desegregation of the schools. 

The big picture.  Brown and Roe cannot be assessed in a vacuum. Both were decisions that were made in response to activist lawsuits from people who had a bigger picture in mind. I'd say it was the same picture, in fact.  Anti-racism and feminist activists wanted a world where the group they were advocating for were equal to white men in terms of education, career, personal freedom, personal stability, wealth, and access to those transcedent aspect of human life such as reputation, joy, creative freedom, role models for aspirational purposes, that sort of thing.  You know, equality. Both decisions were seen as major moves in that direction.  Brown addressed education inequalities that fed into economic and social inequalities.  Roe addressed the way that pregnancy and childbirth are used to constrain women's economic and social opportunities. 

Again, I have to look at the situation and think feminists have been allowed to go further in their goals. Women's status relative to men has improved more than black people's status relative to white people's.  It's a complex question, of course---after all, half of black people are also women, and racism is different than sexism, so it's really hard to measure.  One the measure of income, it's clear that race hurts more than gender: black people make 62% of what white people do, while women make 79% of what men do.  I believe this is a sign that desegregation has faced more backlash than reproductive rights.  Much of what made it hard for women in the past to get access to educational and employment opportunities was the assumption that they would get pregnant and be forced to drop out or downsize their careers in order to get married and have babies.  That expectation has been curtailed greatly, especially for average Americans.  Women can time their pregnancies and limit their family size, which gives them a great deal of control in the rest of their lives.  But black Americans continue to be pushed out of educational and employment opportunities that would help make that income number more equitable.  

It's true people are more willing to say grossly sexist things in public than grossly racist things (though the election of Obama has shifted that), but I think a larger look beyond what people say and what they do will indicate that the situation is more complicated than that. 

What does this all mean?  Well, it sure as hell doesn't mean that Brown was wrongly decided. What it does mean is that we can't judge a court decision granting human beings their full rights based on our fears of a backlash. Often, the only way to change the status quo is to force a confrontation, and courts granting rights are a good way to do that. Just quit pissing on Roe. It was a good decision and it came at a time that the country was actually supportive of abortion rights.  The backlash against is shaped by the trajectory of women's gains differing from the tragectory of African-American gains, but reading the tea leaves of specific court decisions isn't really all that illuminating as to why. 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 01:00 PM • (108) Comments

The backlash against Brown v Board of Education differed greatly depending upon whose ox was gored.  I grew up in a small town in Kentucky, with one school for whites, and one for blacks.  The school system was integrated in the way that a lot of small town southern school systems were integrated: during the summer of 1964, the black school mysteriously burned down, and there was no other option: everybody had to go to the now formerly white school.  There was no forced busing involved, because the town was so small there were no buses!  There was probably some grumbling, but I don’t remember it.  (I was in the sixth grade at the time.)

Nor was it a situation where people saw their children being pulled from one perfectly good, nearby school, and bused across town to another one, for purposes of racial balance; it just wasn’t a real imposition on anyone.

The real backlash came in the urban areas where forced busing was used, because it did create an imposition, one that a lot of people saw as major, and one thing parents don’t like in the least is seeing their children being used as some sort of social engineering tools.

Comment #1: Dana  on  09/22  at  02:13 PM

On what planet was there not “massive resistance” to desegregation?  Some towns and counties just closed all their public schools rather than integrate them, and wealthy residents subsidized private schools for the white kids.  Violence and threats were common.  It brought out the ugly in the South, that’s for sure.  I think what we’ve forgotten is that while people don’t openly speak out against Brown now, they did then.

Comment #2: Kit-Kat  on  09/22  at  02:35 PM

Brown is still being fought.

My kids go to a magnet school.  The entire purpose of this school was to aid in racially balancing schools.

But now you cannot use race as a determining factor for admissions.  The city is experimenting with SES stats, but in Chicago million dollar homes are likely just a block or so away from poor ones, so it’s not easy to find needy kids vs gentrification kids.  Siblings are now the #1 factor, since it’s hoped it will keep the schools stable until a new system is ironed out.

Comment #3: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  09/22  at  02:36 PM

The real backlash came in the urban areas where forced busing was used,

Really, Dana? All that other backlash all over the south didn’t count?

one thing parents don’t like in the least is seeing their children being used as some sort of social engineering tools.

What? Of course they like using their kids as social engineering tools. Simply not in this particular case, and only when it is designed to cater to them instead of someone else.

Comment #4: Tyro  on  09/22  at  02:50 PM

Count me among those perplexed by an author who can argue that Brown didn’t face a huge backlash.  That’s just nuts.  I think Kit-Kat’s last sentence probably nails it.

Comment #5: ScottInOH  on  09/22  at  03:06 PM

“Brown and Roe cannot be assessed in a vacuum. Both were decisions that were made in response to activist lawsuits from people who had a bigger picture in mind. I’d say it was the same picture, in fact.  Anti-racism and feminist activists wanted a world where the group they were advocating for were equal to white men in terms of education, career, personal freedom, personal stability, wealth, and access to those transcedent aspect of human life such as reputation, joy, creative freedom, role models for aspirational purposes, that sort of thing.  You know, equality. Both decisions were seen as major moves in that direction.”

This is the sort of violation of the rights of white males that simply cannot be allowed without strenuous opposition, in the case of racism, mostly covert these days (although Obama has certainly raised it to a more acceptable level among some Americans), in the case of abortion rights, mostly overt.

(The only two things that appear to be kept covert re abortion are:  should Roe finally get overturned, the issue would not be left to the states — the Republican /wingnuts /Reichwing /christopaths would somehow get a Constitutional amendment or federal law that would ban it outright across the country ASAP.  The other one is just how quickly women who sought abortions would find themselves in jail for murder or attempted murder, right next to the doctors whom they sought it from.  I suppose the extreme hostility toward any form of birth-control has been - at least until recently - fairly covert too.)

Both decisions were ground-breaking, should have been made years/decades earlier if our political and legal systems functioned anything like they are supposed to, and both have nurtured a corrosive sense of betrayal and loss of influence among many white males who saw/see their (god-given) power being diminished.

Brown was another battle in the great American civil war over basic human rights that started when the first Africans were brought here in slavery.  That war has been going on here for something like three-centuries, and seems to be slowly slowing down, after reaching its peak in 1860-65, but it’s far from over.

Roe was another battle in the war against the Patriarchy, which has ruled supreme for millenia.  It’s only been seriously challenged in the last few decades, and there are many men, and self-hating women, who are trying to do their part to bring Gilead to life, out of the pages of what is a frightening and predictive novel.

I have faith that overall things get better as the years go by.  But in the short term, many things we take for granted as being self-evidently good are still hanging in the balance, and may be rolled back far easier than most of us would like to believe…

Comment #6: MikeEss  on  09/22  at  03:07 PM

I’ll throw a couple of anecdotes involving my mom (b. 1948) out there:

1965: Her father retires from the Army and moves the family to the rural south after years in California and Europe.  She discovers that being tall, [relatively] cosmopolitan, and a smoker (which sadly kills her at the age of 52) makes her an exotic, alien creature.  She unwisely points out, after hearing classmates complain that letting ‘them’ in will ruin the quality of their education, that she had gone to integrated schools her entire life and the segregated school was embarrassingly easy for her in academic terms.  About this time, her father is bitterly disappointed by not being hired into a federal job at a new base, which is blamed on federal quotas (naturally, not on the widespread understanding that he’s a belligerent hothead), which in turn leads to me hearing rants about how ‘women and n——-s’ are destroying the country through my youth.  And neither of the two main private schools during my teen years could claim any particular academic excellence, lacking even the AP opportunities and National Merit scholars of the larger city HS; one (now defunct, thankfully) was named after Jefferson Davis.

Late 1974-early 1975: having married the son of the rural-south school’s principal at 18, she is advised by her rural-south doctors to terminate her fifth pregnancy, which may or may not be problematic—she had had a stillbirth and the last pregnancy had been moderately difficult—but was certainly unwise given that she already had three kids under age six at home and her husband had decided to crawl into a bottle after his own mother’s recent death.  The abortion happens without fanfare, although no one’s happy about it, and she insists on a tubal ligation soon after.  As far as I know, she never told anyone she was a mother of five, or of four, although she she did want a full name added to the headstone of the stillborn infant.

Generally, it’s much easier to find school integration than abortion providers in that area nowadays, but one of the defining feature of the old Confederacy is how unimpressive most ‘superior’ white institutions are, so I’m not sure that any comparisons are useful.  Not that residents don’t assume that their lousy quality-of-life stats are the fault of poorer minorities instead of comfortable-but-mediocre white, of course.

Comment #7: latts  on  09/22  at  03:20 PM

Amanda is absolutely right, but it is significant that Brown was unanimous, while Roe was a split decision.  The political elite was behind Brown 100%, even if there was still a lot of popular resistance.  There is still some resistance, of course, but it has dwindled in the absence of leadership.  In the case of abortion, however, there was nationally credible leadership for the bad guys from day 1.  Those leaders have, over time, developed a popular following.

Comment #8: BABH  on  09/22  at  03:20 PM

The political elite was not behind Brown 100 percent, even if it was a unanimous decision.  There were plenty of national, state, and local political leaders who supported anti-desegregation efforts.

Comment #9: Kit-Kat  on  09/22  at  04:28 PM

Brown is still being fought.

My kids go to a magnet school.  The entire purpose of this school was to aid in racially balancing schools.

But now you cannot use race as a determining factor for admissions.  The city is experimenting with SES stats, but in Chicago million dollar homes are likely just a block or so away from poor ones, so it’s not easy to find needy kids vs gentrification kids.  Siblings are now the #1 factor, since it’s hoped it will keep the schools stable until a new system is ironed out.

I don’t have kids so I don’t know much about this stuff, but couldn’t they use household income as a big factor for admissions?

Comment #10: bananacat  on  09/22  at  04:31 PM

Everyone in my under-20,000 hometown knew the tiny private school was sort-of for people who didn’t like blacks and the kids of good ol’ boys (not rednecks; in my lexicon the former are the type to afford private school).  Now I have to wonder when the school was founded, since the town has always been really too small to support it.

Comment #11: ganews_  on  09/22  at  04:38 PM

Thanks, Dana, for showing up and proving my point that the resistance to Brown, while it’s vocalized differently, is still with us.  “Social engineering” is pretty classic coded racism.

Comment #12: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/22  at  04:47 PM

One the measure of income, it’s clear that race hurts more than gender: black people make 62% of what white people do, while women make 79% of what men do.

This is a bad statistic because black people come from pooerer families than white people (on t the aggregate), while women come from families that are just as rich (or poor) as men.  America doesn’t have good class mobility on fifty year timescales, there’s no reason to pretend like it does.

Comment #13: Brian  on  09/22  at  04:51 PM

Brown is fought every day here in Atlanta, and the stupid on both sides just burns.

We have loads of white friends with kids who live in parts of town (East Atlanta) that until 10 or 15 years ago were all-black and are now about half white yuppie couples. The local public schools are still all-black and run the gamut from not too bad to dreadful. Not one of the white parents will send their kid to public school, even tho pretty much all of them are as politically “blue” as you can get. All of them talk about charter schools (most of the kids are still pre-school age) tho if pressed they will make mouth noises about supporting the public schools. They will come up with the most absurd rationalizations for this, usually something along the lines of “well, I wouldn’t want Archer to get lost in the shuffle.”

The Atlanta school administration, meanwhile, is one of the most corrupt and incompetent bodies that could be imagined. Truly a poster child for everything Fox News and the local Rush analogue has to complain about. There was a massive scandal about cheating on standardized tests last year, and minions were sacrificed to protect the higher-ups. Minions are always sacrificed in APS. Principals are openly hostile to parents who try to get involved with their kids’ education—this is as true for black parents as for whites. Any attempt to reform the school board, or to make any changes at all, is instantly greeted with cries of racism by the entrenched bureaucracy, and this is a rare case when they’re only about half right.

But my wife and I are no better. We could easily have afforded a nice house in East Atlanta, but when discussing it we added in the price of private school to the mortgage, as if it were a given, and decided it was easier and cheaper to rent in the neighborhood where we live now, across the train tracks where the (almost entirely white) affluent parents long ago banded together and took over the local elementary school, which is now a great place to send your kid. Recently, the school board decided that they were going to address overcrowding in the “good” middle school by splitting our neighborhood in half and sending the far side kids to a middle school across the tracks. The local playground has become a hotbed of political agitation as affluent white parents are shocked and enraged that their investments in their very expensive homes are being negatively affected by this redrawing. Revolution is imminent.

Comment #14: felagund  on  09/22  at  04:52 PM

Chicago is hot on this ‘magnet’ school stuff, and it is very much ‘social engineering.’ That is essentially bussing, but it’s bussing high status kids to the same school. Meanwhile, the neighborhood schools, since they have had their higher achieving students ‘magnetized’ have lower and lower test scores, then they are declared ‘failing’ and shut down and they fire the ‘failing’ teachers.

I heard an NPR story a month or so ago about how in Texas they are using the thinnest of rationales to kick out low achieving students, basically so they can boost their test score average.

Then what happens to the kids expelled from public school? Prison?

No child left behind - what a cruelly ironic - even Orwellian name. The ministry of truth is the ministry of lies.

And Obama loves this magnet school nonsense. NCLB is the final, killing dagger in the heart of Brown V. Board. And its being enthusiastically twisted by our first black president.

Et Tu Barrack?

Comment #15: KingElvis  on  09/22  at  05:06 PM

Yes, Dana, treating children of different backgrounds and skin colors the same way is ‘social engineering’.

Don’t you really wish for the good old days, when people like you and I knew our places?

Comment #16: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/22  at  05:20 PM

Amanda is absolutely right, but it is significant that Brown was unanimous, while Roe was a split decision.  The political elite was behind Brown 100%, even if there was still a lot of popular resistance.

No, no, no. Here is what some of the political elite did when Ike tried to enforce the decision in Little Rock:

1. Lyndon Johnson, in my favorite example of a false-equivalence, spewed out: “There should be no troops from either side patrolling our school campuses anywhere”.

2. Adlai Stevenson’s running mate: “occupying Little Rock has brought about further deterioration of relations and further embitterment between our Negro and white citizens.”

3. Jim Wright (D: TX and future Speaker of the House, making him 1 of 7 individuals who opposed the 64cra but still made it into the presidential line of succession) called for Ike’s to visit Texas and its “people of goodwill. Perhaps this visit would clarify matters for the president.  I have every confidence that you are as fully anxious as anyone to find a basis on which the troops may be withdrawn and order restored at an early date.”

And Kennedy and Stevenson were lukewarm supportive at best, making sure to distance themselves from the decision to send troops instead of standing behind the President.

Comment #17: Manju  on  09/22  at  05:24 PM

The entire modern Republican party is fueled by resistance to Brown v. Board of Education.  The Tea Party is a more reactionary version of that reaction.  Speaking as somebody who was growing up in the south during the civil rights era, there would NEVER be a good time to issue that decision.

The business of the timing of the two decisions is either stupid, or put forward by people who don’t understand how courts work, or raised by some pundit who needs a topic to write about.  If somebody files a cert petition with the Supreme Court, they have to either grant or deny it, i.e., take or not take the case.  The U.S. Supreme Court does not have to grant every cert petition filed with it, but they are not allowed to say, “boy this is an important issue but the time isn’t ripe, come back in 10 years when the timing is better.”  Also, whatever the motives of the people who brought Brown and Roe, anytime a case gets to the U.S. Supreme Court, it’s brought by somebody with a problem the lower courts can’t resolve.  What are they supposed to do with their issue while the Supreme Court waits for some better time to rule on it?

Comment #18: Anniecat45  on  09/22  at  05:30 PM

I’ve read up a bit on busing and it really was a horrible idea. The consequences were the opposite of what was intended with even more segregation as those who could (mostly white) moved out from the cities. A lot of the backlash was against busing rather than against Brown.

Comment #19: librarian  on  09/22  at  05:42 PM

White women don’t really out-earn black men, though. You’re comparing ALL white people to ALL black people and ALL women to ALL men.

Comment #20: Beebower  on  09/22  at  05:51 PM

Oy, I totally forgot that this post is basically tailor-made troll bait for Manju. I was almost content in having forgot about that guy.

Comment #21: Tyro  on  09/22  at  06:06 PM

“The entire modern Republican party is fueled by resistance to Brown v. Board of Education.  The Tea Party is a more reactionary version of that reaction.  Speaking as somebody who was growing up in the south during the civil rights era, there would NEVER be a good time to issue that decision.”

...oh, come on!  Of course there would eventually be a good time for a ruling like Brown — maybe in another two- or three-hundred years or so, give or take a decade or ten.

Of course, their reaction to Obama has revealed that things are worse than many of us hoped.  Ending racism in America may require enough time for troglodyte Reichwingers, skinheads, white-power nuts, and others, to either evolve into fully functioning homo sapiens, or finish devolving into irrelevancy and finally, literally, becoming the fossils they currently appear to be in the eyes of the rest of us…

Comment #22: MikeEss  on  09/22  at  06:07 PM

BABH, I think it’s worth pointing out that anti-Roe “liberal” arguments claim the problem was an elite court pushed the decision on an unwilling public.  Brown was an even more stark contrast between an “elite” court and the populist right.

Comment #23: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/22  at  06:30 PM

If memory serves, one of the arguments made in Roe was something to the effect that the deaths and mangling of poor and black women from illegal abortion were more than those of the wealthier and white women who had access to hospital boards and D&Cs; in their leafy green suburbs.

Unequal access. Although that may not have been weighed as part of the decision (or may have been limited before arguments reached the court.)

I’m no lawyer, my memory is fuzzy on this, and although I did a quick search in the free online version of When Abortion was a Crime:

http://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft967nb5z5&chunk;.id=d0e71&toc;.depth=1&toc;.id=d0e71&brand=eschol

Comment #24: judybrowni  on  09/22  at  06:31 PM

Brien, lack of class mobility is one of the ways racism is enacted. You can’t just bracket off systemic racism and say it doesn’t count.  This blog is smarter than that, sorry.

Comment #25: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/22  at  06:31 PM

Or it could be that was one of the arguments feminists wanted to be argued in Roe, that wasn’t.

Can someone with a better memory, or sources, and a legal mind, help me out here?

Comment #26: judybrowni  on  09/22  at  06:34 PM

judy’s right: abortion access is a racial and class justice issue, too.  Poor women and women of color suffer more from illegal abortion; if it were banned again, the disparities would be worse than they were in the 60s, due to contraception access that middle class women take for granted.

Comment #27: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/22  at  06:41 PM

I can’t pretend that class oppression doesn’t exist either, or only exists as a subset of racism.  Even if they intersect.

Comment #28: Brian  on  09/22  at  06:47 PM

What Tyro fails to realize is that my comment actually substantiates Amanda’s point. There was a backlash against Brown.

I assume that Tyro doesn’t really doubt the general point but rather dislikes the specific evidence. You can fight racism as long as you don’t Gore her Ox. She comes face to face with racism plus power…a future Speaker, future President , and former VP & Prez noms…and chooses to shoot the messenger not the racists. 

I submit, one reason the Jim Crow regime lasted as long as it did is because of behavior like this from lib-Dems.

Comment #29: Manju  on  09/22  at  06:55 PM

I started off with my kids in the neighborhood school.  It’s Rahm’s neighborhood, and did major gentrification.  The neighborhood school looked like a cup of coffee that had cream added to it: the upper grades were black, then more Hispanic, then the white kids took over by preschool. 

It was a real struggle to try to entice the millionaires in the Victorians to come to the school and offer their fundraising abilities, donate items, and use their connections and yet keep the school from becoming all white.  We really wanted to preserve our diversity, but the “better” the school becomes, the whiter it seems to become.

When I started exploring the magnet and gifted school options, it was really frustrating to see how much more some neighborhood schools offered than others, because their parents were richer and had connections.  And the richer parents were invariably white.  It was rather stunning to *see* it—institutional racism, not intentional, but just as devastating.

You don’t have to put your kids in private schools.  You can just take over your neighborhood school, and the fact that white people have the connections leads to inequality.

And there’s no way right now to rectify it, since race is no longer an acceptable

Comment #30: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  09/22  at  07:09 PM

*acceptable criterion for admissions.

Comment #31: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  09/22  at  07:10 PM

Manju: huh?

Shorter Manju: the Jim Crow south was somehow the fault of those Northren libruls, who neither enacted the laws nor supported the legislation. Nor lived within 1,000 miles.

Tell that to someone who didn’t see the disparity first hand in 1960: no Color and White drinking fountains in New Jersey, but to my shock and horror, yup there they were the further south we got to our destination in Tennessee.

Where even as a little white girl of 10 years of age, I went to a Catholic church with my mother, only to hear that the last three churches that congregation had built had been burned down by the Klan, or their local supporters.

Yup, hadn’t happened up in New Jersey, where we attended a church that had stood for 50 years. But Jim Crow was so damned lively in the South, that at ten years old, I had to worry that I might be murdered in a firebombing that summer.

(Not an unrealistic fear, as that’s exactly what happened to four little girls in the South over two years later. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16th_Street_Baptist_Church_bombing)

But I’m sure all that was the fault of the northren libruls, somehow.

Comment #32: judybrowni  on  09/22  at  07:19 PM

Manju:
1 - I’m pretty certain Tyro is male (from regular commenting across subjects here)
2 - The comment had nothing to do with your evidence, but a wry expecation that your “evidence”  (usually a mix of true and WTF) would quickly derail any conversation and proove you to be an ass.  Again.

Comment #33: helen w. h.  on  09/22  at  07:22 PM

Colored and White bathrooms, as well.

None of those in New Jersey, or even in New York City, which wasn’t as white as our little community.

Comment #34: judybrowni  on  09/22  at  07:24 PM

Oh, no Colored and White segregated signs neither in the nearby New Jersey community (a couple miles over the hill) where my mother grew up, with enough of a color mixture that it included a black police traffic officer, who was featured on a national TV segment because he was a such a virtuoso at directing traffic.

But I’m sure that he was also somehow at fault for the Jim Crow laws in the South, according to Manju.

Comment #35: judybrowni  on  09/22  at  07:33 PM

Chicago, Chicago, Chicago.

Lived in Illinois for a while, nowhere near the city.  Met lots of people from Chicago and from the suburbs.  I have never seen such a segregated mess in my entire life - and it wasn’t just race/ethnicity.  The rich suburbs around Chicago have some of the most ridiculous schools you could imagine (nine-figure construction budgets, more than one pool, minor club sports teams with multiple paid trainers and coaches), while schools in the poorer suburbs were literally falling apart.

At least in big cities, the amount of money being spent per student is similar from school to school.  In the suburbs, things are an order of magnitude worse, at least in places where schools are funded by local property taxes (which is most of the country, AFAIK).  Fuck NCLB, fuck white flight, but also fuck the stupid way we pay for public education in this country.

Actually, I take that back.  Let ‘em have all of it - but bring back forced busing.  We’ll see how quick those parents up in Winnetka start to show concern for the state of public education when their kids suddenly end up going to school in Rosemont.

Comment #36: Dave Fried  on  09/22  at  07:37 PM

It’s not just Southern states that had/have a problem with segregation.  You don’t need Jim Crow laws if you have courts willing to enforce racial housing covenants and real estate agents who direct their clients to the “right” neighborhoods.  De facto segregation can have the same effect as de jure segregation.

Comment #37: Kit-Kat  on  09/22  at  07:52 PM

the Jim Crow south was somehow the fault of those Northren libruls, who neither enacted the laws nor supported the legislation. Nor lived within 1,000 miles.

Perhaps you’ll understand if I turn my guns on my own party. Barry Goldwater was not a Southerner and “neither enacted the laws nor supported the legislation.” MLK even tells us he was not a racist. But he didn’t support the efforts to end those unjust laws either. Therefore the Jim Crow south was (in part) his fault.

I cited Adlai Stevenson above. He ran with 2 different segregationists during his 2 Presidential runs. I quoted what one of them had to say about Ike’s efforts to enforce Brown v Board. If you can’t hear that dogwhistle, here is an expert interpreter for you:

“When you vote to keep the Democrats in power, you’re keeping the Dixiecrats in power.”
—Malcolm X

(Not an unrealistic fear, as that’s exactly what happened to four little girls in the South over two years later. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16th_Street_Baptist_Church_bombing)

Unless you think Malcolm was informing us what Betty was whipping up for dinner when said the chickens were coming home to roost after Kennedy’s assassination,  I assure you there is plenty of evidence of Northern Liberals enabling such activities.

Kennedy of course opposed such activities, as long as the opposition did not mean a loss of political power for him. It is this attitude that enabled Jim Crow. Tyro personifies that here.

Comment #38: Manju  on  09/22  at  08:02 PM

“But I’m sure that he was also somehow at fault for the Jim Crow laws in the South, according to Manju.”

...well, in Manju’s world, Grover Cleveland, Woodrow Wilson, Franklin Roosevelt were all responsible for Jim Crow, along with Harry Truman, John Kennedy, Lyndon Johnson, Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, and now Barrack Obama.  Basically all Democrats actually elected since the Civil War. (Andrew Johnson was not elected, but became POTUS after Lincoln assassination…)

Because the Republican Party is the “Party of Lincoln” (nevermind the fact zombie Lincoln would torch Washington after seeing what today’s “Republicans” have done to our political and economic systems), it has a lifetime exemption from ever being held responsible for any racism of any kind.  According Manju, there are no racist Republicans, only Republicans who regularly speak in dog whistle. 

And there never was a Republican “Southern Strategy” to suck-up racist Democrats who were pissed about Lyndon Johnson’s Civil Rights Acts, Ronny Reagan didn’t kick off his 1980 campaign by declaring “I believe in states’ rights,” in Philadelphia, Mississippi, and because Condi Rice, Colin Powell, and that pizza guy are Black, this proves the Republican Party is the only political party entirely free of racism.

To be fair to Manju, the color of the sky in his world is red, the clouds are bright green, and the Civil War was fought over which end of a hard-boiled egg to open first, so who are we to judge…

Comment #39: MikeEss  on  09/22  at  08:06 PM

The comment had nothing to do with your evidence, but a wry expecation that your “evidence”  (usually a mix of true and WTF) would quickly derail any conversation and proove you to be an ass.  Again.

Let me get this straight. I supply quotes that provide evidence of political elites resisting Brown v Board on a post about resistance to Brown v Board and you consider that a derail.

Comment #40: Manju  on  09/22  at  08:22 PM

“Amanda is absolutely right, but it is significant that Brown was unanimous, while Roe was a split decision.”

Maybe somebody addressed this already, but according to Wikipedia, the case was heard twice specifically because the decision after the first hearing would not have been unanimous.  The Justices who were in favor of overturning Plessy felt that it was important to do so unanimously, so they used a rehearing as a stalling tactic while they got everybody else on board. 

I might be completely off base here (IANAL, or a historian), but I get the impression that attitudes towards “judicial activism” in the middle of the 20th century weren’t what they were now.  I read about the Warren court and it makes me so sad that somehow we’ve moved to a place where a judge doing what she knows is right is considered dirty politics.

Comment #41: mamram  on  09/22  at  08:26 PM

I suspect that a larger percentage of the population has access to safe abortions than has access to meaningfully integrated public schools. (See Jonathan Kozol’s The Shame of the Nation for details.)

Fights are gonna happen. People who think we should give back victories to avoid fights are deluded.

Comment #42: brainz123  on  09/22  at  08:34 PM

WHat a stupid argument. Roe was inarguably better timed than Brown. Leaving asside the fact that schools today are more segregated than they have ever been while abortion is still legal, it took decades to go into effect. Brown was decided in 1954 (mamram is right that Warren spent a lot of energy lobbying his court-mates and crafting arguments and a ruling that allowed the decision to be unanimous). The Central High School event happened three years later. The Civil Rights act was what first gave the feds (rather than just the courts) power to enforce integration and that was 10 years after Brown. The Court didn’t even rule that integration be immediate until ‘68.

I had to read a book for college on the impact of court decisions, and I can’t remember for the life of me what it is called, but it had a graph of the number of LEGAL abortions performed each year.  The # of legal abortions rapidly expanded throughout the 60s as more states legalized teh procedure. The Roe Decision did not change the trend in anyway. The number of legal abortions did not start to decline until the 1980s when the moral majority types realized that their opposition to divorce and formal segregation were no longer viable and focussed all its efforts on abortion.

Comment #43: alysia  on  09/22  at  08:37 PM

Actually, I take that back.  Let ‘em have all of it - but bring back forced busing.  We’ll see how quick those parents up in Winnetka start to show concern for the state of public education when their kids suddenly end up going to school in Rosemont.

It would be quite the opposite: their reaction would be to dismiss public education entirely because there was no way to get it to work for them. And that was sort of one of the well-intentioned but failed problems with urban/metro area busing: it was seen as sort of a punitive retaliation against those who were able to escape social problems in other communities.

At issue is that we inappropriately fund schools by property taxes, leading to the disparities. However, for the most part, people want to go to the schools that are in their own neighborhood and resent it when they’re forced to go to school elsewhere. That’s just the way people are: those who don’t care about sending their kids to school within their local neighborhood/community are inclined to send their kids to private shool in the first place: because if you’re okay with sending your kid to school in a completely different region, you might as well take your pick of private schools in the extended area rather than waste time being bused elsewhere for the sake of racial load-balancing.

Comment #44: Tyro  on  09/22  at  08:38 PM

Shorter Manju: gobble de guk, frangu mango, diddly do!

Comment #45: judybrowni  on  09/22  at  08:54 PM

However, for the most part, people want to go to the schools that are in their own neighborhood and resent it when they’re forced to go to school elsewhere.

At least one example used in the Seattle schools Supreme Court case was a white kid who had a one-hour each way commute to his majority-minority school (presumably when he lived a short distance from his white majority local school).  That kind of commute is crushing for adults.  Adults who live an hour or more away from work report more stress and less happiness in their lives, and they have higher rates of divorce.  There has to be a better way to achieve social justice than forcing kids to endure that kind of ordeal.

Comment #46: keshmeshi  on  09/22  at  09:45 PM

Shorter Manju: gobble de guk, frangu mango, diddly do!

Judybrowni,

You cited the 16th Street Baptist Church bombing so I cited Malcom X…because his JFK/chickens quote was in part a reference to Kennedy’s enabling of this, something that goes back to his days as a Senator where he would kill strong civil rights protection in committee (but never in the more visible final vote). You don’t think James Eastland endorsed him for nothing, do you?

You want to know how Northern Dems could be to blame. Since you can’t understand me, allow me to speak thru others. Just to mix thing up, lets go right to an original source. No scholars, no leaders even. Just regular folks who marched during the CR era and who decided to voice their opinion:

This site is about the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s. We are veterans of the Southern Freedom Movement, and this is where we can tell the story of the Civil Rights Movement, in our own words, as we lived it.

Lets start with an opinion you will like:

Patricia Anderson:
I believe that both sitting presidents, Kennedy and Johnson did everything that they thought was necessary during the time of the movement.

But sadly, Patricia is alone:

Bruce Hartford:
No, he did the minimum he could given the public pressure he was under. Throughout the whole time both Kennedy and Johnson, and also Congress, were afraid to anger the Southern segregationists who controlled a large bloc of votes in Congress and the Electoral College. So they dragged their feet and did as little as possible.

Joan Mandle:
The President chose to ignore the situation as long as possible and not protect the civil rights workers. Only with the violence that was perpetrated on the movement by white racists did the nation and later the President begin to take notice. Only when political pressure was put on him and other elected officials from millions who understood the horror of segregation did elected officials reluctantly pass the legislation that meant that racism was against the law.

Wazir (Willie) Peacock:
No, Kennedy did not do all that he could do. We should have gotten federal protection, because we were doing voter registration. The citizens had the right to vote. It’s a right, not a privilege. In the South, they were treating it like it was some kind of privilege. It was in the law and the power of the President to order the Justice Department to give us protection, but we had a director of the FBI at the time [J. Edgar Hoover] who boldly said that he was not going to protect those Civil Rights workers. He had that kind of clout, he could say that.

Of course, President Kennedy could have ordered him, but he never did. He never did order it, and for good reason for himself. He was already getting himself ready to run for a second term. You had Senator Eastland and Senator Strom Thurmond [both Democrats at that time] and all those other politicians. He had to play politics. He couldn’t come out, and be elected again, because Blacks in the South did not have the vote yet.

For example, when Fannie Lou Hamer, in the fall of ‘62, was shot at for trying to register, Kennedy spoke about it the next day, but that’s all. At that time, he had the opportunity. He could have justified sending Federal marshals in to protect us but he didn’t do that.

Jean Wiley:
I was so naive, especially about Kennedy. I wasn’t fully aware of the kinds of games that Kennedy was playing.

They were there. They took the hoses and the dogs. Hopefully you can understand what they are telling you.

http://www.crmvet.org/faq/faqpres.htm

 

Comment #47: Manju  on  09/22  at  10:11 PM

the backlash against Brown was huge. Maybe I have my timeline wrong, but didn’t the Virginia schools in questions close down for three years rather than comply with the court order to desegregate?

Comment #48: t-ster  on  09/22  at  11:09 PM

Manju, people find you irritating because we all know that Democrats were/are racist. Read felagunds #14 where he talks about the urban blue folks refusing to send their kids to public schools. The problem is that this point isn’t really prescient to the discussion at hand. You seem to imply that because JFK and LBJ and every person in the whole goddamn country has done something racist, our views on racism are somehow irrelevant. I don’t know if that is your real point, because nothing you say is ever germane to the discussion. If we ever have a discussion about whether any Democrats are racism free, please come back with your insights. Until then, stick on topic, or stfu.

Comment #49: alysia  on  09/22  at  11:14 PM

#14 felagood. I’m curious what you mean by East Atlanta. The Druid Hills/Emory folk have no qualms sending their kids to the public school that serve those neighborhoods to say nothing of Decatur. Are there that many yuppies moving into Reynolds Town and Edgewood?

Comment #50: scrumby  on  09/22  at  11:20 PM

I’d also argue that the backlash against Brown has operated not through legislative activism, but through all sorts of restrictive zoning laws, economic inequalities, and other tools that have essentially resegregated our schools in a seemingly “natural” way without having to resort to legislation. Now those codes operate on auto-pilot to ensure that schools stay segregated. The reason backlash against Roe is so visible and violent is that the legality of abortion really did make it much more accessible, nearly overnight. The crazies who oppose abortion rights really have to take an active stance to roll back those rights. But desegregating schools required a sustained, active, uphill battle. As soon as the government stopped being vigilant about it, the schools just slid back into de facto segregation without having to have any visible activists arguing a pro-segregation stance.

Comment #51: t-ster  on  09/22  at  11:24 PM

#50 scrumby: East Atlanta is the section surrounding Moreland south of I-20. Glenwood, Flat Shoals, etc. I’m really talking about a larger area including Grant Park and Ormewood and Cabbagetown. And yes, there are that many yuppies moving into Reynoldstown and Edgewood. Of course the Druid Hills/Emory people are fine with the public schools: they’ve taken them over, just like we have in Candler Park. Decatur is a separate city and county.

Comment #52: felagund  on  09/22  at  11:45 PM

I’ve realized that Manju has a monomaniacal fixation on flooding threads with his pet obsessions and that he also doesn’t understand things like sarcasm or subtext. He’s that guy you at first feel sorry for and then realize he’s a hopeless case and you simply can’t interact with him.

Comment #53: Tyro  on  09/22  at  11:46 PM

Shorter Manju:

You may have lived through the 60s, judybrowni, but I’ve read more books about it than you have!

Comment #54: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/22  at  11:59 PM

Manju, people find you irritating because we all know that Democrats were/are racist

Does “we” include Judybrowni? Because she was just mocking the notion that someone could hold them partially responsible for segregation. 

The problem is that this point isn’t really prescient to the discussion at hand.

Well then allow me to make the connection. This post is partially but significantly about resistance to Brown v Board. Someone pops into say; “The political elite was behind Brown 100%.” So I cite 3 quotes from very powerful political elitists who were not behind Ike’s enforcement of that very decision in Little Rock. These men were Democrats. They were leaders of the Party and climbed to prominent positions like House Speaker.

Therefore “it” is rather “prescient to the discussion at hand”.

You seem to imply that because JFK and LBJ and every person in the whole goddamn country has done something racist, our views on racism are somehow irrelevant.

Really? Where do I seem to imply that?

I don’t know if that is your real point, because nothing you say is ever germane to the discussion.

My specific point was that there was tremendous resistance to Brown v Board. My larger point is that trafficing in denailist narratives, like the civil war was not about slavery (to give you a RWing one), is racist. When folks traffic in lefty versions of such narratives here, I pull the facts and rebuke them.

That’s my point. Read my first comment here again with that in mind.

Comment #55: Manju  on  09/23  at  12:04 AM

You may have lived through the 60s, judybrowni, but I’ve read more books about it than you have!

What an awfully dismissive (and teabaggishly anti-intellectual) thing to say when I just cited veterans of the civil rights movement who contradict Judybrowni’s denialist assertions:

This website is of, by, and for Veterans of the Southern Freedom Movement during the years 1951-1968. It is where we tell it like it was, the way we lived it. With a few minor exceptions, everything on this site was written or created by Movement activists who were direct participants in the events they chronicle.

For us, the heart and soul of our website is emphasizing the central role played by ordinary people transforming their lives through extraordinary courage….Our purpose is to make sure that there is at least one place where the Movement story is told by those who actually lived it. We want to set the record straight

http://www.crmvet.org/about1.htm

Comment #56: Manju  on  09/23  at  12:12 AM

Well excuse me, manju, you did have 1 relevant comment before getting annoying, but one can forgive Tyro for not really reading your comment before assuming that you were trying to get us all to apologize for talking about racism when JFK was racist, like you do on every other thread. And it only took one more comment for you to get on your “you liberals can’t handle the truth!” soapbox.

Comment #57: alysia  on  09/23  at  12:41 AM

“It’s true people are more willing to say grossly sexist things in public than grossly racist things (though the election of Obama has shifted that)...”

Is that true?  Well, the first part is obviously true, but in which direction have you seen President Obama’s election shifting the willingness of people to say racist things?  In my dumb-ass little corner of the world, I didn’t see too much of an effect on people’s willingness to say blatantly racist shit, but I’ve seen a bit of an increase in the dog-whistling shit.  I’m not sure how much of that is due to what they they watch on Fox News thinking it’s not racist if it’s on the news.

Comment #58: megamahan  on  09/23  at  02:12 AM

Shorter Manju: gobble de guk, strawman, mango frango, strawwoman, diddly do!

Comment #59: judybrowni  on  09/23  at  02:36 AM

Also: JFK wrote the Jim Crow laws!

Comment #60: judybrowni  on  09/23  at  02:43 AM

What an awfully dismissive (and teabaggishly anti-intellectual) thing to say when I just cited veterans of the civil rights movement who contradict Judybrowni’s denialist assertions

In other words, you admit that you did what I said you did, since you admit that you have no experience or knowledge of the 60s first-hand yourself.

I was being sarcastic, Manju, thanks for helping me make my point.

A “(Teabaggagishly anti-intellectual) thing to say” was your attempt to link FBI hate crime statistics with the phrase “Oppression Olympics”, as I pointed out before.

Comment #61: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/23  at  02:43 AM

According to Manju, things that actually happened in my lived life, that I was witness to, is somehow “denialist.”

I was very much aware of the Civil Rights movement: I was horrified by footage of children in the south being firehosed, and having German Shepherds set on them by the police was on the nightly news.

So much so that at nine, I began reading James Baldwin.

The Dixiecrats may have been neanderthals: but JFK sent the National Guard down South, and LBJ further alienated them by the Civil Rights laws.

There was a great divide between Northern and Southren Democrats, and I saw it first hand. It wasn’t liberals who enacted the Jim Crow Laws—but those who supported, and worked for, their repeal.

Yes, it’s too damn bad that the Democrats and liberals didn’t act as fast as Manju felt they should in trying to eradicate racism.

But considering the climate in the South 50 years ago, and the liberal white activists who also lost their lives in Civil Rights movement, it’s insanity to claim liberals supported the Jim Crow laws.

 

 

Comment #62: judybrowni  on  09/23  at  03:29 AM

And as for nonsense from Manjo, not much tops accusing a Democrat of 40 years standing (third generation Democrat) of being a Tea Bagger, takes the cake.

Especially since it’s the Dixiecrats of old who turned Republican and/or Tea Baggers.

Comment #63: judybrowni  on  09/23  at  03:41 AM

Amanda wrote:

Thanks, Dana, for showing up and proving my point that the resistance to Brown, while it’s vocalized differently, is still with us.  “Social engineering” is pretty classic coded racism.</blockquopte>

And the Dark Avenger added:

<blockquote>Yes, Dana, treating children of different backgrounds and skin colors the same way is ‘social engineering’.

Thing is, we weren’t “treating children of different backgrounds and skin colors the same way.”  Instead, we were assigning children to certain schools based upon their racial and ethnic status, and in some cases that meant that students went to the public school closest to their homes, while in others it meant being bused across town, well away from their neighborhoods, to schools where the parents had no input and the neighborhood had no connection.

In small towns like the one in which I grew up, where there was only one public school, that was not a problem.

Comment #64: Dana  on  09/23  at  08:03 AM

Kit-Kat and T-ster: Yep. Sundown towns, redlining, withdrawal of capital and neglect of public services in black areas, etc. I’m a New Englander… racism is (usually) less in-your-face up here, but there’s a reason some PoC call Boston “Mississippi on the Charles.”

Manju, the point that you insist on missing, repeatedly, is that most of the racism in the Democratic Party circa 1964 moved over to the GOP thanks to Lee Atwater and his ilk. Nobody here is arguing that there are and have never been any racist Democrats. Nobody here is going to buy your focus on party affiliations from 50 years ago as a way to claim that today’s Democrats are the (more) racist party.

Comment #65: Nobody in Particular  on  09/23  at  08:14 AM

Make that “there are not and have never been any racist Democrats.” And I previewed and everything.

Comment #66: Nobody in Particular  on  09/23  at  08:21 AM

Instead, we were assigning children to certain schools based upon their racial and ethnic status

Which segregation also did, and to which you seemingly have no objection to, Dana, because it didn’t happen where you happened to grow up.

That reminds me, Dana, grow up, your attempts at political discussion demonstrate the sophistication of a middle school child parroting what he/she heard Rush Limbaugh say on the radio the other day.

Comment #67: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/23  at  08:51 AM

Actually, DA, it was segregated living patterns which did that.  And in half a century and more of enforcing school integration via court orders, just how has that ended segregated living patterns?  The Hampton Roads area, where I used to live, had its white neighborhoods and its black neighborhoods, along with a few somewhat integrated ones.  New Castle County, Delaware, where I lived for two years, was the most segregated place I have ever seen, thirty years (at the time) after court-ordered school desegragation.

Comment #68: Dana  on  09/23  at  09:03 AM

At least one example used in the Seattle schools Supreme Court case was a white kid who had a one-hour each way commute to his majority-minority school (presumably when he lived a short distance from his white majority local school).  That kind of commute is crushing for adults.

I had a 1-hour commute each way to school, but that’s because I went to a private school. Once you’re making the idea of commuting a hour to school over to a completely different area the norm, you’re basically uprooting the entire idea of neighborhood public schooling, because then people will say, “I can either go to a school an hour away that the state mandates, or I can go to a school an hour away of my own choosing.”

My family was not the sort to “get involved” with my teachers and schools (it was more along the lines of, “Tyro, if the school is getting in touch with me about something, it is because you are neglecting your school work. Stop it!”), and we were not the sort of people who had a stake in “the community” to the point where we cared all that much of going to school with our neighbors. But plenty of families do and want that kind of thing, and it’s what sustains the public school system. I mean, you could argue that everyone should be a bunch of deracinated cosmopolitans like myself, whose schooling was handled by a bunch of well-qualified technocrats serving students from all over the state who gathered there for the quality of the education and/or avoid the mediocrity of their own public schools before heading off to some distant private university, but most people don’t want that.

, it was segregated living patterns which did that.

Hm. I wonder how that happened?

Comment #69: Tyro  on  09/23  at  09:17 AM

Man, the GOP in this thread proves the point amply that they’re still fighting desegregation, even if they have to go through strained rationalizations to get there.

Comment #70: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/23  at  09:17 AM

Actually, DA, it was segregated living patterns which did that.

Not in all cases, and not in the case Amanda is writing about:

As directed by the NAACP leadership, the parents each attempted to enroll their children in the closest neighborhood school in the fall of 1951. They were each refused enrollment and directed to the segregated schools. Linda Brown Thompson later recalled the experience in a 2004 PBS documentary:

  . . . well. like I say, we lived in an integrated neighborhood and I had all of these playmates of different nationalities. And so when I found out that day that I might be able to go to their school, I was just thrilled, you know. And I remember walking over to Sumner school with my dad that day and going up the steps of the school and the school looked so big to a smaller child. And I remember going inside and my dad spoke with someone and then he went into the inner office with the principal and they left me out . . . to sit outside with the secretary. And while he was in the inner office, I could hear voices and hear his voice raised, you know, as the conversation went on. And then he immediately came out of the office, took me by the hand and we walked home from the school. I just couldn’t understand what was happening because I was so sure that I was going to go to school with Mona and Guinevere, Wanda, and all of my playmates.[10]


Thanks for demonstrating the wisdom of J. S. Mill, Dana:

I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it.

Comment #71: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/23  at  09:45 AM

  Kit-Kat at 2: Whats surprising was that there wasn’t more open violence during the Civil Rights Era and the fight against segregation. Considering American racial history, especially how the White South acted to Reconstruction, the possibiltiy for more racist acts of violence was immense. I’m slightly surpised that there weren’t open acts of insurrection on the part of white southerners.

  Re: I’m always slightly amused/very annoyed at people who try to use the Dixiecrats as a tool to cudgel the entire Democratic Party. Northern Democrats were generally for civil rights, Hubert Humphrey arguing for it as early as the 1948 convention and Harry Truman getting the ball rolling with his order desegregating the armed forces, which was another important first step. LBJ was a Texan and knew that he was going to cause massive political damage to the Democratic Party by pursuing civil rights but he put principle ahead of political expediency and did so anyway. Whatever LBJ’s faults were, and they were numerous, he always tended to do what he thought was the right thing even if he knew it would cause immense political damage to himself or his party. Sometimes this led to good results like civil rights and the war against poverty and other times to very bad results, Vietnam.

  Re Brown, Roe, and timing: Brown was actually not instanteous decision on the part of the Supreme Court but part of long series of decision desegregating education that started with the least controversial, graduate schools of state universities, to the most controversial, public elementary, junior high, and high schools. The Supreme Court was working their way up to desegregation. Brown was in a sense better timed because there was something of a workup in an attempt to brace the public and the principles establsihed in Brown were eventually codified by Congress in the Civil Rights Act. There wasn’t the judicial work-up for full abortion rights like say abortion rights for vicitims of rape than for full rights like there was for desegregation and abortion rights were never codified latter, which would have been ideal.

Comment #72: Lee  on  09/23  at  10:34 AM

  Caveat: Of course, the Supreme Court’s attempt to get people ready for complete desegregation didn’t work so it is unlikely that an attempt to get people ready for full abortion rights would have worked. The real failure was that abortion rights couldn’t be codified by Congress like desegregation was.

Comment #73: Lee  on  09/23  at  10:40 AM

I had a 1-hour commute each way to school, but that’s because I went to a private school. Once you’re making the idea of commuting a hour to school over to a completely different area the norm, you’re basically uprooting the entire idea of neighborhood public schooling, because then people will say, “I can either go to a school an hour away that the state mandates, or I can go to a school an hour away of my own choosing.”

In the case of South Boston and parts of NYC, there’s also the common perception among working-class/lower-middle class Whites that the “Liberal Elites” were effectively busing their kids to crappy and sometimes violent schools while they were able to shield their own kids from such effects by moving their families to all-White nearby suburbs like Wellesley with great public schools and/or sending their kids off to private schools like Andover or Phillips Exeter.

This isn’t helped by a culture I’ve seen common among educrats and public school teachers in most public K-12 schools where they encourage “lowest common denominator teaching”, extreme low expectations of what most K-12 kids are actually capable of, and strongly discourage or even punish students/parents who desire/need greater academic stimulation than what the local K-12 schools can offer (i.e. accelerated classes, AP/IB, advanced electives, etc). 

Add all that on top of US mainstream popular culture which IME tends to denigrate intellectuals and high academic achieving students, the common perception that most US K-12 atmosphere is like that of an anarchic zoo*, and it is no wonder that such kids and their parents desire to avoid having anything to do with their local public schools if they fit the pattern of stereotypical mainstream US public K-12 school culture. 

* Not too far removed from the truth in many areas IME.  One main reason why I attended my public magnet high school was because several older neighborhood kids who attended our zoned high school warned us younger kids about the violence there.  A warning which was underscored by their injuries from being beaten up and even stabbed with knives necessitating hospital visits and numerous stitches.  Considering I attended a junior high and elementary school which had uncontrolled bullies subjected me and other kids to muggings and frequent beatings….no thank you.

Comment #74: exholt  on  09/23  at  12:02 PM

exholt, if going to a magnet school on the other side of town were popular, then everyone would do it. A more common solution is to move to the suburbs where your local neighborhood public school is better. People have an attachment to local public education. If you take that away, then they will start to detach themselves from the entire concept of public education.

Comment #75: Tyro  on  09/23  at  12:46 PM

exholt, if going to a magnet school on the other side of town were popular, then everyone would do it. A more common solution is to move to the suburbs where your local neighborhood public school is better. People have an attachment to local public education. If you take that away, then they will start to detach themselves from the entire concept of public education.

My previous posting was to illustrate the experiences and perceptions of those who are skeptical of busing and/or left-oriented movements to dismantle magnet high schools.  I’m personally conflicted because I agree with the idea that everyone is entitled to a good education in a safe environment of their choosing whether it is a local school or not. 

Unfortunately, the way most US-based educrats and some lefty movements have proceeded with this is to encourage educational mediocrity/conformity, discourage/punish parents who need/desire more intellectual stimulation/accelerated academic programs,, and to dismantle/attempt to any schools for poor/middle class kids who may need accelerated/more rigorous educational programs.  And yet, one hardly hears much of a peep regarding how many of them send their own kids to fancy boarding/private schools with costs rivaling private Ivy colleges. 

Something which struck me as a particularly US-oriented tendency as even most ostensibly socialistic/communist countries had publicly funded magnet/exam schools for those with above-average academic/intellectual abilities.  They were also much more strict about tracking students from the earliest ages….with the exception of disastrous chaotic events such as the Chinese Cultural Revolution. 

 

Comment #76: exholt  on  09/23  at  01:41 PM

Manju, the point that you insist on missing, repeatedly, is that most of the racism in the Democratic Party circa 1964 moved over to the GOP thanks to Lee Atwater and his ilk.

I’ve addressed this point here repeatedly. Indeed, in at least one formulation, this point is evidence of a larger thread of lefty-denailsm of which I often speak. Here it is:

Strom Thurmond was one of many examples.  All the Dixiecrats/southern Democrats jumped to the Republican party either in 1964 when the Civil Rights Act was passed, or in 1972 when George McGovern was the Democratic candidate for president.  During those 8 years congressional representation in the south went from 100% Democratic to mostly Republican.
http://pandagon.net/index.php/site/comments//close_reading_of_redstate_sorry#244254

This is demonstratively false, though a very common racist meme in lefty circles. Virtually all the senators, congressmen, governors, and other famous segregationists stayed within the Democratic party. 5 (6 if you include one Az-Dem who failed to vote for cloture in 64) went into the line of succession post-64. Strom Thurmond was an outlier. Fullbright, Gore, Wallace, Byrd, Faubus, etc were the norm.

The region was a dem stranglehold on all levels except presidential until 1994. And while there was a Southern Strategy on the part of the Republicans, there was also one by Dems. That’s why hardly any of the dixiecrats…ie segregationist politicians like Stennis, Eastland, etc…left the party. Since we are talking about Brown v Board, here is one jaw dropping dogwhistle from Carter’s 76 run:

“I’m not going to use the federal government’s authority deliberately to circumvent the natural inclination of people to live in ethnically homogeneous neighborhoods…”

In his “apology”, he went on to use the words:  “ethnic purity,” “black intrusion,” and “alien groups”.

Everything I’ve written is true and easily verifiable. So, you need to take these factors into consideration when you glibly claim “most of the racism in the Democratic Party circa 1964 moved over to the GOP”. This sort of whitewashing of should not be tolerated because it denies racism. And saying so shouldn’t be controversial on an anti-racist blog.

Comment #77: Manju  on  09/23  at  05:08 PM

Nobody here is arguing that there are not and have never been any racist Democrats.

Right. Did I claim there were?

Nobody here is going to buy your focus on party affiliations from 50 years ago as a way to claim that today’s Democrats are the (more) racist party.

Please provide the quote where I made such a claim.

 

Comment #78: Manju  on  09/23  at  05:14 PM

The Hampton Roads area, where I used to live, had its white neighborhoods and its black neighborhoods, along with a few somewhat integrated ones.  New Castle County, Delaware, where I lived for two years, was the most segregated place I have ever seen, thirty years (at the time) after court-ordered school desegragation.
Comment #68: Dana on 09/23 at 09:03 AM

Eastern Virginia was such a mess they ended up annexing everything around it as “white flight” kept going farther and farther.  Then they gave up altogether, when the courts said it was okay, since if they weren’t quitting with the express intent of resegregation, well, that’s just fine.

http://www.littlejohnexplorers.com/jeff/brown/riddickcase.htm

So we should just fund schools the same across the board, right?

Turns out that’s not enough.  A big part of the problem with school facilities is similar to the problem with Black versus White income—wealth gives you a big advantage even if the current income/funding is the same, because money is money.  Not even counting Caren’s very important point that wealthier families can give more to their local schools six ways from Sunday.

Even if crappy schools with crumbling physical plants and insufficient libraries suddenly were to all get the same funding as great public schools with multiple pools and research centers, the crappy schools will never catch up, because they have to spend their dollars on making the ancient boiler work instead of buying new computers.

And if more money were to go to the crappy schools, people in the nice schools get all riled up about it, because it’s “unfair”.

Comment #79: oldfeminist  on  09/23  at  06:00 PM

<a hyref=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Gore,_Sr.#Early_years_and_Congressional_career”>Gore</a> was a famous segregationist, Manju?:

Gore was one of only three Democratic senators from the 11 former Confederate states who did not sign the 1956 Southern Manifesto opposing integration, the other two being Senate Majority Leader Lyndon B. Johnson (who was not asked to sign) and Gore’s fellow Tennessean Estes Kefauver, who refused to sign. South Carolina Senator J. Strom Thurmond tried to get Gore to sign the Southern Manifesto, Gore refused. Gore could not, however, be regarded as an out-and-out integrationist, having voted against some major civil rights legislation including the Civil Rights Act of 1964. He did support the Voting Rights Act of 1965. He had easily won renomination in 1958 over former governor of Tennessee Jim Nance McCord, which at that point was still tantamount to election (because of the traditional weakness of the Republican party in the post-Reconstruction South); by 1964 he faced an energetic Republican challenge from Memphian Dan Kuykendall, who ran a surprisingly strong race against him.

By 1970, Gore was considered to be fairly vulnerable for a three-term incumbent Senator, as a result of his liberal positions on many issues such as the Vietnam War and Civil Rights. This was especially risky, electorally, as at the time Tennessee was moving more and more towards the Republican Party. He faced a spirited primary challenge, predominantly from former Nashville news anchor Hudley Crockett, who used his broadcasting skills to considerable advantage and generally attempted to run to Gore’s right. Gore fended off this primary challenge, but he was ultimately unseated in the 1970 general election by Republican Congressman William E. Brock III. Gore was one of the key targets in the Nixon/Agnew “Southern strategy.” He had earned Nixon’s ire the year before when he criticized the administration’s “do-nothing” policy toward inflation. In a memo[5] to senior advisor Bryce Harlow, Nixon aide Alexander Butterfield relayed the President’s desire that Gore be “blistered” for his comment.[6] Spiro T. Agnew traveled to Tennessee in 1970 to mock Gore as the “Southern regional chairman of the Eastern Liberal Establishment”. Other prominent issues in this race included Gore’s opposition to the Vietnam War, his vote against Sen. Everett Dirksen’s amendment on prayer in public schools, and his opposition to appointing Clement Haynsworth and G. Harrold Carswell to the U.S. Supreme Court. Brock won the election by a 51% to 47% margin.

So, to be a famous segregationist, one only had to have voted against the CRA, even if one voted for the VRA in 1965.

Good to know.

 

Comment #80: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/23  at  06:36 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Gore,_Sr.#Early_years_and_Congressional_career

Comment #81: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/23  at  06:36 PM

Even if crappy schools with crumbling physical plants and insufficient libraries suddenly were to all get the same funding as great public schools with multiple pools and research centers, the crappy schools will never catch up, because they have to spend their dollars on making the ancient boiler work instead of buying new computers.

So much this. Decatur is classic rough neighborhood turned yuppie/gay hot spot. It’s been 15-20 years of gentrification and the high school is just getting up on it’s feet. The city is finally getting to the point that it can put some serious money into renovations and support programs. That’s a hurdle my brand new suburban high school didn’t have to overcome. We bought a portable defibulator my junior year because kid dropped dead on the football field; that was school funds, not a donation. 

#52. O.K I got ya. I think growing up in North Fulton my mental map of Atlanta places the center higher up than it is and that skews my ordinals all to hell.

Comment #82: scrumby  on  09/23  at  08:32 PM

So, to be a famous segregationist, one only had to have voted against the CRA, even if one voted for the VRA in 1965.

Too harsh on Al Gore? Fine, take him off the list. I would think you’d want to cast a wider net though. The more segregationists there are then the more chances you have to find someone who migrated to the Republicans.

‘64’s the biggie, so Al needs to take some hit. Perhaps we should think of him like we do WF Buckley, to use a non-politician. He had a flirtation with segregation? Maybe just a collaborator, not an all-out segregationist?  I would really need to know more about Gore to make such a judgment. We would have to look at his votes on cloture and other procedures to see how genuinely he supported civil rights, to the extent one can support it w/o supporting the 64cra. Did he apologize, did he retract?

The only warning I have is that you’ll find most segregationists have such misdirects. Even Strom fought the poll tax and the KKK, and voted to extend the voting rights and fair housing act in the 70’s.

Anyway, I’m flexable. As long as you don’t tell me something outlandishly false I won’t jump on the soap box. Do what you want with him.

Comment #83: Manju  on  09/23  at  10:50 PM

Too harsh on Al Gore? Fine, take him off the list. I would think you’d want to cast a wider net though.

I would think you’d want to be less free with your accusations and more reality-based in your research, Manju, such sloppiness only undermines your credibility.

Comment #84: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/24  at  08:11 AM

Perhaps we should think of him like we do WF Buckley, to use a non-politician. He had a flirtation with segregation? Maybe just a collaborator, not an all-out segregationist?

I think saying Gore wasn’t an integretionist is accurate, but saying Buckley wasn’t a segregationist who believed in democracy is palpably false:

I mean, what can you say about a guy who wrote “General Franco is an authentic national hero” at the same time he found Dwight Eisenhower too liberal to endorse for president? What are we to make of a lover of democracy who called whites in the American South “the advanced race,” entitled to prevail politically even if they were numerically inferior, and who even left the door open to using violence toward that end? Heck, for that matter, what can be said of someone so culturally perceptive that he could write, “The Beatles are not merely awful. They are so unbelievably horrible, so appallingly unmusical, so dogmatically insensitive to the magic of the art, that they qualify as crowned heads of anti-music.” (Was it the “We’re more popular than Jesus” quote that rattled you Bill, or were you just jealous about all the screaming chicks?)

Of course, we’re also told by his biographer:

It may seem odd, but Buckley, whose parents were both Southerners, actually inherited views on race that were fairly progressive for his time and place.</blockquotre>

Back to Alternet:

<blockquote>So well, indeed, that he came out in support of segregation during the era when the civil rights movement was the most important, the most consuming political question of the day. So who do you think history will judge to have gotten this question right, eh?—Martin Luther King Jr. or Bill Buckley? One could say that Buckley’s position was just about the most spectacular example ever recorded of the missing of a historical train. There was Ol’ Bill (who actually didn’t even have the excuse then of being old), standing on the (whites only) platform, watching the Morality Express go whooshing by.

http://www.alternet.org/media/78662?page=entire

I would really need to know more about Gore to make such a judgment. We would have to look at his votes on cloture and other procedures to see how genuinely he supported civil rights, to the extent one can support it w/o supporting the 64cra. Did he apologize, did he retract?

Since you seem to be the self-appointed expert on this subject, you could answer your own questions, or admit that you had and seemingly have insufficient knowledge of Gore’s record to lump him in with the segregationist Democrats in the first place.

The only warning I have is that you’ll find most segregationists have such misdirects. Even Strom fought the poll tax and the KKK, and voted to extend the voting rights and fair housing act in the 70’s.

The record demonstrates that he didn’t have a voting record or rhetoric comparible to Strom Thurmond except for the one CRA64 vote, but your optimism only belies your lack of command of the facts in Gore’s case, which of course means that you must be right anyway.

Sorry to bust your bubble, Manju, but if you have to engage in arm-waving to explain away your lack of research about Gore, it doesn’t bode well for any other ‘scholarship’ you think you’ve demonstrated here and elsewhere.

Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

 

 

 

Comment #85: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/24  at  08:34 AM

And if more money were to go to the crappy schools, people in the nice schools get all riled up about it, because it’s “unfair”.

Actually, that’s already the case in the case of the NYC Board of Ed due to a combination of greater expenses for security, specialists for a wider range of learning/intellectual abilities, and bureaucratic politics. 

The last is due to a definitive anti-magnet school orientation among many of the educrats there.  Some of their attitudes were reminiscent of those of the Red Guards and their supporters when they effectively shut down Mainland China’s educational/research institutions for a decade because they were “too elitist” for having admissions being based on demonstrated skills and/or academic ability. 

Incidentally, a sizable chunk of my and other specialized high schools’ annual budgets are derived from donations from loyal alums and bake sales/fundraisers by the alumni association.

Comment #86: exholt  on  09/24  at  10:22 AM

This had been an interesting thread until Manju came in to flood the thread with comment spam about his own personal obsessions, brought on by his own inability to read social cues and his self-absorption. Can something be done about this?

Comment #87: Tyro  on  09/24  at  10:59 AM

Since you seem to be the self-appointed expert on this subject, you could answer your own questions, or admit that you had and seemingly have insufficient knowledge of Gore’s record to lump him in with the segregationist Democrats in the first place.

He voted against THE civil rights act. This is sufficient knowledge to lump him in with the segregationists. Having said that, if you wish to distinguish him from the others, like King did with Goldwater (saying something to the effect that he was not a racist but stood side by side with them during the pivotal moment in history), I do not object.

I do not possess enough knowledge of Gore to know where he should precisely be placed. I’ve long been curious about this though, and it’s a topic worth exploring.

I think saying Gore wasn’t an integretionist is accurate, but saying Buckley wasn’t a segregationist who believed in democracy is palpably false:

Buckley explicitly renounced his support of segregation. Arguably, Gore made a non-explicit renunciation by virtue of his post-64 voting record. This makes him similar to Buckley.

<blockquote>The record demonstrates that he didn’t have a voting record or rhetoric comparible to Strom Thurmond

I understand that and knew that beforehand. But the reason I gave you the warning is that Strom had a stronger voting record and less vitriolic rhetoric than others, like James Eastland. But being less racist than James Eastland is not the standard for being removed from the list of supporters of segregation. The standard is whether or not you voted for the 64 civil rights act. (I would actually use the cloture vote, but lets keep it simple for now).

except for the one CRA64 vote,

Heh. Except for that one cultural revolution thingie, Mao was not a tyrant. (I don’t think you understand the significance of the 64cra).

Sorry to bust your bubble, Manju, but if you have to engage in arm-waving to explain away your lack of research about Gore, it doesn’t bode well for any other ‘scholarship’ you think you’ve demonstrated here and elsewhere.

Sure it does. If I don’t know something I tell you. I’m not Judibrowni. I don’t ask you to take my word on anything because I’m the expert.

Comment #88: Manju  on  09/24  at  05:37 PM

Oops. Let me correct some of the formatting:

I think saying Gore wasn’t an integretionist is accurate, but saying Buckley wasn’t a segregationist who believed in democracy is palpably false:

Buckley explicitly renounced his support of segregation. Arguably, Gore made a non-explicit renunciation by virtue of his post-64 voting record. This makes him similar to Buckley.

The record demonstrates that he didn’t have a voting record or rhetoric comparible to Strom Thurmond

I understand that and knew that beforehand. But the reason I gave you the warning is that Strom had a stronger voting record and less vitriolic rhetoric than others, like James Eastland. But being less racist than James Eastland is not the standard for being removed from the list of supporters of segregation. The standard is whether or not you voted for the 64 civil rights act. (I would actually use the cloture vote, but lets keep it simple for now).

Comment #89: Manju  on  09/24  at  05:41 PM

He voted against THE civil rights act. This is sufficient knowledge to lump him in with the segregationists.

Funny, it took you a while to answer the original inquiry:

So, to be a famous segregationist, one only had to have voted against the CRA, even if one voted for the VRA in 1965.

A simple yes would have sufficed earlier, or even a qualified yes, but you’re not simple, are you, Manju?

I understand that and knew that beforehand. But the reason I gave you the warning is that Strom had a stronger voting record and less vitriolic rhetoric than others, like James Eastland.

But being less racist than James Eastland is not the standard for being removed from the list of supporters of segregation.

And when did that become some sort of litmus test?  Only because you’re starting to lose the argument,  so you set up a standard that you ‘warned’ me about?

LOL!

And so you know more about the intricate politics of the Civil Rights Movement, advocates, opponents, and others, and I ask, why should anyone give a shit about your pedantic, goal-post moving ‘warnings”, Manju?.

It’s clear that your scholarship is all about talking about sins of Democrats who are neither alive or in any significant positions of power, today, and instead of meeting Amandas’ challenge you get to toot your own horn and achieve little else around here.

Sure it does. If I don’t know something I tell you.

Which it took you several posts to do so in the case of Gore, and special pleading to boot, because why?

I’m not Judibrowni. I don’t ask you to take my word on anything because I’m the expert

She has shown several instances of poor judgement over defending a given issue or two, but then I’m not perfect, either, and I don’t hold myself as better than most of the commentators on this site
such arrogance I leave to Satan and should expect from the likes of you.

Your inability to handle feedback from several parties unrelated or unknown to each other reminds me of my mothers advice that people who are not thinking clearly always think they’re the Brainiacs of the world and the rest of the people are dishonest, turbid thinkers who can’t appreciate their genius as reasonable people would.


You’ll get it in about 20 years or so, Manju.

Comment #90: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/24  at  08:35 PM

it’s clear that race hurts more than gender: black people make 62% of what white people do, while women make 79% of what men do….

I have to thank you such an article…

http://www.mynameistech.com

Comment #91: erirm1  on  09/24  at  10:52 PM

Sure it does. If I don’t know something I tell you.

Which it took you several posts to do so in the case of Gore, and special pleading to boot, because why?

In my first response to you after you protested the inclusion of Gore, I said; “He had a flirtation with segregation? Maybe just a collaborator, not an all-out segregationist?  I would really need to know more about Gore to make such a judgment.”

So it did not take “several posts”.

I ask, why should anyone give a shit about your pedantic, goal-post moving ‘warnings”, Manju?

I thought you wanted to move the goalposts in order to exclude Gore. I acquiesce, but with some caveats, and you protest that I’m making “pedantic” distinctions.

I can go either way. If you want to cast a wide net that traps Buckley, Gore, and Goldwater, then cast one. If you want to distinguish between their evil and the evil of say Byrd, who took to the Senate stage to tell us that black brains were smaller than white ones, then hey, that’s a fair distinction.

We should not erase Gore’s support of segregation but I don’t object to you wanting to make a distinction. Draw the boundaries wherever you want.

instead of meeting Amandas’ challenge

what challenge?

Your inability to handle feedback from several parties unrelated or unknown to each other reminds me of my mothers advice that people who are not thinking clearly always think they’re the Brainiacs of the world and the rest of the people are dishonest, turbid thinkers who can’t appreciate their genius as reasonable people would.

I’m not that egotistical. I don’t think I’m nearly as great as I really am.

 

Comment #92: Manju  on  09/24  at  11:06 PM

In my first response to you after you protested the inclusion of Gore, I said; “He had a flirtation with segregation? Maybe just a collaborator, not an all-out segregationist?  I would really need to know more about Gore to make such a judgment.”

So, you admit to lumping in Gore with the segregationists without knowing much about his record in the first place.

<b,>I thought you wanted to move the goalposts in order to exclude Gore. I acquiesce, but with some caveats, and you protest that I’m making “pedantic” distinctions.</b>

Nope, you went from “I dunno about Gore”, to being certain that based on one vote, Gore deserved to be called a segregationist,  so you went from being uncertain to certainty in a few posts.

Very quick work methinks.

I can go either way. If you want to cast a wide net that traps Buckley, Gore, and Goldwater, then cast one.

When did I ever accuse of Goldwater making the same racist statements or sentiments that Buckley made?

That’s your problem, Manju, you make a lot of assumptions, then you try to discredit anyone who points out the flaws and illogical leaps you make in response, giving ‘warnings’ and equivocations when you should be using facts and logic instead to make your point instead.

We should not erase Gore’s support of segregation but I don’t object to you wanting to make a distinction. Draw the boundaries wherever you want.

Read up on Gore, then perhaps you’ll be qualified to draw boundaries yourself.

I’m not that egotistical. I don’t think I’m nearly as great as I really am.

You’re just terribly confused, Manju, and your inability to stick to the subject of this thread merely demonstrates your cleverness for all the world to see.

 

 

Comment #93: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/24  at  11:47 PM

Nope, you went from “I dunno about Gore”, to being certain that based on one vote, Gore deserved to be called a segregationist, so you went from being uncertain to certainty in a few posts. Very quick work methinks.

Look, you went from disputing he was a segregationist to saying he was not an integrationist. Since someone who is not an integrationist would naturally be considered a segregationist, your own position is highly nuanced.  A hack could demagogue your statement to imply you went from being certain he was not a segregationist to uncertain in a few posts.

But that is not the game I play. I’m interested in substance, not rhetorical tricks.

I know, like Goldwater, he supported segregation during THE pivotal moment when the regime’s demise was in sight. Whether or not his support was that of a collaborator or of a segregationist is not a judgment I’m qualified to make.

So, you admit to lumping in Gore with the segregationists without knowing much about his record in the first place.

Close. I admit to calling him a segregationist because he supported segregation. But these two things don’t necessarily go together. After all, Lynne Stewart supported Islamic Fundamentalism without actually being an Islamic fundamentalist.

So while lumping someone with the segregationists and calling them a segregationist might seem like a pedantic distinction, I only went there because you seemed to be making genuinely nuanced arguments, classifying Gore as not being an integrationist yet simultaneously asking he not be called a segregationist either. 

You lure me with nuance then scold me for being pedantic.

 

Comment #94: Manju  on  09/25  at  06:33 AM

Look, you went from disputing he was a segregationist to saying he was not an integrationist. Since someone who is not an integrationist would naturally be considered a segregationist,

Uh, no, I repeated the Wiki claim that Gore wasn’t an ‘out-and-out integrationist’.

If I say that a given mammal isn’t a dog, that doesn’t make it a cat.

But that is not the game I play. I’m interested in substance, not rhetorical tricks.

Which is why you went from saying that you’re unsure about Gore to squarely putting him in the segregationist camp based on one vote.

Thanks for clearing that up again.

Whether or not his support was that of a collaborator or of a segregationist is not a judgment I’m qualified to make.

So, you’re willing to say that he should be called a segregationist, even though you can’t even determine what the basis of his vote was.

Very nuanced, Manju.

I only went there because you seemed to be making genuinely nuanced arguments, classifying Gore as not being an integrationist yet simultaneously asking he not be called a segregationist either.

Binary thinking is the sign of an inadequate imagination in many cases, Manju.

You lure me with nuance then scold me for being pedantic.

So, you can’t help yourself?  Where have I heard that before?

ACTION
Dear kindly Sergeant Krupke,
You gotta understand,
It’s just our bringin’ up-ke
That gets us out of hand.
Our mothers all are junkies,
Our fathers all are drunks.
Golly Moses, natcherly we’re punks!

ACTION AND JETS
Gee, Officer Krupke, we’re very upset;
We never had the love that ev’ry child oughta get.
We ain’t no delinquents,
We’re misunderstood.
Deep down inside us there is good!

Comment #95: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/25  at  08:51 AM

Look, you went from disputing he was a segregationist to saying he was not an integrationist. Since someone who is not an integrationist would naturally be considered a segregationist,

Uh, no, I repeated the Wiki claim that Gore wasn’t an ‘out-and-out integrationist’.

“America’s Dumbest Criminals” often forget about the videotape. Like when you said; “Which it took you several posts to do so in the case of Gore” when in fact I did so in the very next post.

So let’s go to the videotape again: “I think saying Gore wasn’t an integretionist is accurate,”

If I say that a given mammal isn’t a dog, that doesn’t make it a cat.

There are a lot of mammals. There are not a lot of positions between “not being an integrationist” and being a segregationist. “Not being an integrationist” is more like not being a man. You are very likely a woman. But not necessarily.

So, you’re willing to say that he should be called a segregationist, even though you can’t even determine what the basis of his vote was.

I’m willing to lump him in with the segregationists, though I’ll refrain from calling him one out of respect for your own nuance.

Which is why you went from saying that you’re unsure about Gore to squarely putting him in the segregationist camp based on one vote.

“one vote.” You need to stop this. It’s the 3rd time you’ve done it. I can feel Pandagonians wince as you say it. The 64 vote was not a regular vote. It was THE pivotal one. I’m doing you a favor here. Trust me like Judybrowni.

 

Comment #96: Manju  on  09/26  at  05:29 AM

“America’s Dumbest Criminals” often forget about the videotape.

As have you apparently forgot your ever-changing moods about Gore:

Too harsh on Al Gore? Fine, take him off the list.

From #83

He voted against THE civil rights act. This is sufficient knowledge to lump him in with the segregationists.

That’s two comments, or ‘several’, Manju, even though you acknowledge that you had no idea of the details of Mr Gores’ vote or record on civil rights aside from the CRA of 64

There are a lot of mammals. There are not a lot of positions between “not being an integrationist” and being a segregationist. “Not being an integrationist” is more like not being a man. You are very likely a woman. But not necessarily.

“Take him off the list” and “This is sufficient knowledge” are two incompatible positions, Manju, but you have the silliness to say that your position didn’t change.

As I stated in an earlier thread, you need to be careful when you use zebra crossings.

one vote.” You need to stop this. It’s the 3rd time you’ve done it. I can feel Pandagonians wince as you say it.

Is that because you can sense a disturbance in the Force?

The 64 vote was not a regular vote. It was THE pivotal one. I’m doing you a favor here. Trust me like Judybrowni.

If you could be consistent and demonstrated the relevancy of your comments, that would be interesting, but judybrowni is a Rhodes Scholar next to you, not that there’s anything wrong with that.

You’ll get it right in 20 years or so, Manju.

Comment #97: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/26  at  09:22 AM

“Take him off the list” and “This is sufficient knowledge” are two incompatible positions, Manju,

Voting against the 64cra is sufficient knowledge to lump Al Gore in with those who supported segregation. It may not be sufficient knowledge to claim he was a segregationist, for the reasons you provided. After all, Lynne Stewart supported Islamic Fundamentalism without actually being an Islamic fundamentalist.

So when you judged he was not one I acquiesced to your opinion (“Take him off the list”). But I also added a caveat based on our “sufficient knowledge”: “‘64’s the biggie, so Al needs to take some hit. Perhaps we should think of him like we do WF Buckley, to use a non-politician. He had a flirtation with segregation? Maybe just a collaborator, not an all-out segregationist?”

If you could be consistent and demonstrated the relevancy of your comments, that would be interesting,

This post is about resistance to Brown v Board. So I quoted LBJ, Sparkman, and Jim Wright, giving resistance to Brown v Board, along with some enabling from Stevenson and JFK. This totally relevant point was met with howls of protests.

In the process, other commentators bought up the southern shift, which does seem irrelevant and strikes me as an attempt to change the subject to republican racism. I engaged those commentators because in the process of changing the subject they put forth a denialist narrative, which as you know I don’t let pass without a scolding.

Comment #98: Manju  on  09/26  at  04:40 PM

Voting against the 64cra is sufficient knowledge to lump Al Gore in with those who supported segregation. It may not be sufficient knowledge to claim he was a segregationist, for the reasons you provided.

That’s an interesting distinction, Manju.  It’s interesting how you use that as a refuge when called out on your inconsistent stand on Gore.

<u>So when you judged he was not one I acquiesced to your opinion (“Take him off the list”). But I also added a caveat based on our “sufficient knowledge”: “‘64’s the biggie, so Al needs to take some hit. Perhaps we should think of him like we do WF Buckley, to use a non-politician. He had a flirtation with segregation? Maybe just a collaborator, not an all-out segregationist?”</i>

I’m sorry, Manju, but I find it impossible to take you seriously anymore.

This post is about resistance to Brown v Board.

Nope, it was a comparison of such resistance to that encountered by Roe from anti-abortionists, in case you forgot the title of this post:

<b>Was Brown a more timely decision than Roe?<b>

In the process, other commentators bought up the southern shift, which does seem irrelevant and strikes me as an attempt to change the subject to republican racism

You, talking about changing the subject, when that’s been your M.O. from the beginning posting here.

That’s really LOL!

I engaged those commentators because in the process of changing the subject they put forth a denialist narrative,

You’re the one who would deny any discussion of Republican racism and instead focus on Democrats who are either dead or no longer in any positions of leadership in either House of Congress as somehow more relevant that the N—word, N—word strategy as outlined by Lee Atwater.

which as you know I don’t let pass without a scolding.

Scolding is appropriate for a child that has done something possibly dangerous to themselves or someone else, that you think it has a place in political discourse demonstrates your monomania on the subject, Manju.

Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

Comment #99: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/27  at  09:25 AM

This post is about resistance to Brown v Board.<em>

Nope, it was a comparison of such resistance to that encountered by Roe from anti-abortionists, in case you forgot the title of this post:

If it’s a comparison of the very resistance I commented about, then the post is indeed about that resistance.

You’re the one who would deny any discussion of Republican racism and instead focus on Democrats who are either dead or no longer in any positions of leadership in either House of Congress as somehow more relevant that the N—word, N—word strategy as outlined by Lee Atwater.

On a post about resistance to Brown v Board, you object to someone discussing that very resistance on the basis that the Dems in question are “either dead or no longer in any positions of leadership in either the House of Congress.”  Instead you would prefer to discuss a dead republican who was never in either House of Congress.

The problem isn’t that I’m off-topic. It’s that I’m on.

Comment #100: Manju  on  09/27  at  09:55 PM

On a post about resistance to Brown v Board, you object to someone discussing that very resistance on the basis that the Dems in question are “either dead or no longer in any positions of leadership in either the House of Congress.

And your continued inability to discuss Republican racism continues apace.

The problem isn’t that I’m off-topic. It’s that I’m on.

Nope, the problem is that you have to bring your little hobby-horse to the discussion, ignoring any comparison to the Roe v Wade resistance, let alone bringing it up, because you’re on topic.

Keep clear of those zebra crossings, Manju, and keep declaring victory, it suits you so well.

Comment #101: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/28  at  01:55 AM

And your continued inability to discuss Republican racism continues apace.

I discussed Goldwater, Buckley, and Thurmond on this thread. So thats not what’s bothering you.

ignoring any comparison to the Roe v Wade resistance,

You also ignored Roe when commenting on segregation, so thats not what is bothering you either.

Comment #102: Manju  on  09/28  at  03:54 AM

I discussed Goldwater, Buckley, and Thurmond on this thread. So thats not what’s bothering you.

If you think mentioning three names in passing is ‘discussing Republican racism’ then I can see why you’d want to act as though that mention counts. I’m sorry to say it doesn’t.

You also ignored Roe when commenting on segregation

Manju the Monkey see, Manju the Monkey do?

I was first responding to Dana’s ignorant comment about segregation, but again, let your actions be dictated by mine, Manju, that’s a show of good faith.

so thats not what is bothering you either.

Since you’re such a good mind-reader, Manju, tell me what color SUV I drive.

 

Comment #103: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/28  at  09:05 AM

If you think mentioning three names in passing is ‘discussing Republican racism’ then I can see why you’d want to act as though that mention counts. I’m sorry to say it doesn’t.

When I discuss a republican racist, progressives usually don’t pop in to say he “always tended to do what he thought was the right thing even if he knew it would cause immense political damage to himself or his party” as one Pandagoanian did after being confronted with this jawdropping false equivalence coming out of LBJ’s mouth as Ike tried to enforce one of the rulings that this post is about.

“There should be no troops from either side patrolling our school campuses anywhere”.

So there is no need for me to elaborate.

I was first responding to Dana’s ignorant comment about segregation

I was responding to this: “The political elite was behind Brown 100%.”

Manju the Monkey see, Manju the Monkey do?

Macaca has more plausible deniability.

Comment #104: Manju  on  09/28  at  06:28 PM

When I discuss a republican racist, progressives usually don’t pop in to say he “always tended to do what he thought was the right thing even if he knew it would cause immense political damage to himself or his party” as one Pandagoanian did after being confronted with this jawdropping false equivalence coming out of LBJ’s mouth as Ike tried to enforce one of the rulings that this post is about.


Unfortunately, you did it at a prolix length, and someone else said it better:

The political elite was not behind Brown 100 percent, even if it was a unanimous decision.  There were plenty of national, state, and local political leaders who supported anti-desegregation efforts.

Which is correct, in my view, what about yours?

Trying to demonstrate you corrected someone when you’re trying to correct me is risible, Manju.

 
Macaca has more plausible deniability

Not really, it’s a defined word with a defined meaning, I just wanted to return something for all your airs of intellectual snobbery, and now that I’ve hit the mark I’ll retire making derogatory remarks comparing you to an animal, because I see what an injustice I’ve done linking you to any sensible member of the order Primates.

BTW, still waiting on your mind-reading powers to tell you what color SUV I drive.

 

 

 

Comment #105: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/28  at  07:12 PM

Unfortunately, you did it at a prolix length, and someone else said it better:

“someone else” argued by asserting. She asserted correctly, but those believing otherwise don’t know that. So I closed her argument by supplying smoking guns: 3 direct quotes from 3 very powerful people who were in the process of resisting the enforcement of Brown v Board.

Trying to demonstrate you corrected someone when you’re trying to correct me is risible, Manju.

I wasn’t trying to correct you. That comment had nothing to do with you. I don’t even see how it could be interpreted as having anything to do with you.

 

Comment #106: Manju  on  09/28  at  08:02 PM

I wasn’t trying to correct you.

No, it was just another effort to make yourself look good.

Excuse my confusion.

Comment #107: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/28  at  08:36 PM

don’t hate me because I’m beautiful

Comment #108: Manju  on  09/28  at  09:35 PM
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