Login

Register

Member List

RSS Feed

Amanda | Contact

Auguste | Contact

Jesse | Contact

Pam | Contact

Next entry: Kids These Days aren’t Kids These Days Previous entry: Sneering creationists

We Must All Unite Against Unity

EducationRaceRepublicans

imageArizona just banned ethnic studies classes from their public schools. 

Now, some might say, “Oh, they didn’t ban all ethnic studies classes from schools, just the ones that promote ethnic solidarity or resentment.”  That would be totally cool, except that the bill as passed is so vague that you pretty much can’t mention a (non-white) ethnicity in the classroom, lest you hurt someone’s fee-fees.  What the bill bans:

Prohibits a school district or charter school from including in its program of instruction any courses or classes that:

Ø      Promote the overthrow of the United States government.
Ø      Promote resentment toward a race or class of people.
Ø      Are designed primarily for pupils of a particular ethnic group.
Ø      Advocate ethnic solidarity instead of the treatment of pupils as individuals.

Here’s how this will (inevitably) play out: it’s [Insert Minority Ethnic Group] History Month.  Students are taught about all the wonderful things people in that group did.  However, inevitably, someone in that minority group who’s particularly famous will have, at some point, clashed with white people about something or other related to race.  Perhaps it’s Martin Luther King, Jr., perhaps it’s Cesar Chavez, perhaps it’s the story of ol’ Bill Johnson who went down to Ace Hardware and wondered why he got a worse deal on his grill than the young white women who flashed cleavage at the cashier.  But the discussion will come up, and it’s at that point that the law will step in and put the hammer down.  There is no reason you should be discussing racial conflict or identity in this country, because this is America, and everyone in this country is an individual - together

...Or something. 

Jammie Wearing Fool ably illustrates the point:

If it’s so important that these kids learn about their heritage, let them take classes on it outside of the schools or here’s a novel idea: Let their parents teach them about it. Nobody taught me anything about my cultural heritage in school. I learned it from my family and reading about it myself.

I don’t know this Fool.  But I’m assuming from years of reading said Fool that he is white.  Which, of course, means that in the American diaspora, Fool has been routinely educated about his cultural heritage in classes called “History” and “Social Studies” and “English”. 

You might wonder (correctly) if the inevitable effect of this law runs both ways - can minority students say that the teaching of standard, majority-focused narratives would allow them to raise a stink about ethnic solidarity and the like?  Of course not!  White administrators and white legislators will just say that’s history and tell those silly illegals to sit down and shut up before they’re asked for their papers. 

I just can’t wait until the Arizona state legislature bans refried beans as a preventative measure against Latino supremacy.  That’s going to be a great day.

 

------

Registration is now required! We're still in the process of getting it all squared away, so for the moment don't forget to Login or Register using the links in the upper left menu before starting to write your comment.

Posted by Jesse Taylor on 05:59 PM • (117) Comments

They can’t teach anything that “promote[s] resentment toward a race or class of people.”

Which essentially means they can’t teach anything that puts a particular race or class in a negative light.

How in heck are they going to teach any part of US History from 1876 - 1913?  Are they going to completely eliminate any instruction about Robber Barons, or are they just going to re-name them “Fluffy Bunnies?”

Comment #1: elmo  on  05/12  at  06:19 PM

Does it seem like that people have been really jumping up the racial tension lately?  I’d say since Obama became president, but really, it seems like the longer we have a recession, the more people are looking to scapegoat those “Minorities”.  I mean, we have AZ doing the triple-load of racist crazy (the Jim Crowe-esque Papiere bitte, the “moving teachers” who speak “Ungrammatically or with an accent” and of course the “We can’t teach that there are anyone else besides us “real Americans” meaning “white people”).  Then we have the Dan Fenilli ad that’s the most racist political ad I’ve seen since “Hands (view here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umTITWQuXwY&feature=player_embedded).  All the while we have the birthers going on about how Obama isn’t a real American, and people shouldn’t put race on the census, and just a general talk about how “those people” are ruining America.

Does anyone else feel this way, or have some good evidence to demonstrate it?  Or should I break out my tinfoil hat and read up again on why run-on sentences are bad?

Comment #2: Antigone  on  05/12  at  06:27 PM

Arizona has really fallen off the insanity cliff, hasn’t it. This law is nothing but a knee-jerk reaction to the challenge of white privilege.

Comment #3: jadehawk  on  05/12  at  06:30 PM

It’s because a lot of white people don’t think that white is a race.  A lot of white men, also don’t believe that male is a gender.  So of course history will teach all about white history.  That’s not white history, it’s just history. 

It’s so fucking entitled and privileged there are no words.

Comment #4: JennyLI  on  05/12  at  06:34 PM

This ban strikes me as blatantly unconstitutional.  Let’s see how long—and how far up the chain—it will take a challenge to strike it down.

Comment #5: Sam Holloway  on  05/12  at  06:35 PM

“Arizona has really fallen off the insanity cliff, hasn’t it”

And how. These wack jobs are as bad as the Alabama wack jobs. Is there a place where people can live without having these kinds of assholes ruining their day?

Comment #6: Mark  on  05/12  at  06:37 PM

More unConstituational lunacy from the Meth Lab of Democracy. Y’know, if I were a long-serving and elderly GOP Senator of a state like this, and found that my re-election depended more and more on pandering to the bigoted morons demanding these kinds of anti-immigrant bills, I’d call it a day. After decades of service, I’d feel I deserved to enjoy the kind of luxurious only made possible by my wife’s big-time brewery inheritance.

Then again, I’m not John McCain. (Youtube link)

Comment #7: Gracchus.  on  05/12  at  06:37 PM

Sadly, you’re right.  The racial tension amplified because the majority of white men (and women I believe) didn’t vote for Obama and yet he won.  It put the aging whites on notice that their lily white society (which if you’re of that age know it was never lily white) is changing before their eyes.  These laws are just meant to cement a quasi-Jim Crow futures so when the younger generations come up they’ll have a much harder time to upset the apple cart they’ve developed. 

Race is finally opening up because the corporations need as much cover as they can muster.

Comment #8: Xeranar  on  05/12  at  06:39 PM

Awesome! So it’s now illegal to learn about any history of dissent in Arizona classrooms! Well, that pretty much ensures that Christianity and the Bible never appear anywhere near an Arizona public school. Have you read what it says in there about Pharisees and rich people? Talk about promoting resentment of a group or class!

Comment #9: jonas  on  05/12  at  06:42 PM

Not just 1876-1913; how are they going to teach the western expansion of the U.S.? Goodbye manifest destiny. To say nothing of that whole slavery thing.

Comment #10: Anne  on  05/12  at  06:43 PM

See?! NOW do you finally believe the recent immigration law in Arizona wasn’t about racial resentment?

God, what’s it going to take to get through to you people?

/snark

Comment #11: RickMassimo  on  05/12  at  06:43 PM

if there is a successful boycott of all things arizona, this may well become a moot point. with little to no tax revenues, the state won’t be able to afford public education.

Comment #12: cpinva  on  05/12  at  06:47 PM

Have you read what it says in there about Pharisees and rich people? Talk about promoting resentment of a group or class!

Jesus said crazy things about camels going through eyes of needles, etc.  But that’s in the New Testament, which we know was written by DFH’s.

Comment #13: Linnaeus  on  05/12  at  06:51 PM

That state already can’t afford public education.

I’m wondering how this will affect my friends, who teach at a charter school that focuses on native culture and language. They learn all the regular curriculum, along with native language, but in, say, botany, they might focus on plants that are important in Tohono O’odham agriculture or grow those plants in the school garden as they learn about seeds, germination, photosynthesis, etc. That sort of thing. Seems like the entire school would become illegal.

Comment #14: chingona  on  05/12  at  06:51 PM

This ban strikes me as blatantly unconstitutional.  Let’s see how long—and how far up the chain—it will take a challenge to strike it down.

I think that’s true of a lot of republican legislation at the state level. There was one recently in Oklahoma I think where they were going to make it legal for doctors to lie to their patients if they think the patient is going to have an abortion. The example would be “will the kid have any birth defects?” and the response the doctor gives if he thinks you are going to off the down syndrome angel is “no, she\he will be totally normal”.

Anyway the way the law was written it was obvious that it wasn’t going to pass any challenge to it. I asked a guy from Oklahoma I know what the fuck is up with that. According to him the point was to make the democratic governor (Brady Henry) look ineffectual because they had enough votes to override his veto. It was the republican way of making him eat shit. The other point was it was intended to excite the base for the upcoming elections and pave the way for their lunatic (Mary Fallin) to oust the democrat.

The real story was they were grandstanding legislation that would couldn’t stand up to any challenge or be enforced that was costing the state money it didn’t have. I would be kind of surprised if the exact same thing wasn’t happening in Arizona.

Comment #15: pharmakos  on  05/12  at  07:04 PM

There’s a lot to that, pharmakos. Never forget that all the Republican flag-burning amendments of the ‘90s and ‘00s never had a chance in hell of passing, never mind surviving a court challenge; the point was simply to get people on record as voting for or against it.

Comment #16: RickMassimo  on  05/12  at  07:08 PM

Part of me hopes that this gets to the Supreme Court and we will hear arguments about Free Speech rights.  However, I don’t trust the Supreme Court to do the right thing anymore.

Comment #17: barbara smith  on  05/12  at  07:11 PM

I agree with Pharmakos, I think the Arizona republican party is grandstanding to help oust McCain, and get Hayworth into the Senate, and to keep any republican from even thinking about being a moderate. At one point I actually thought Brewer was a moderate, now I"m pretty sure if she is a moderate then she’s scared shitless. The old white people seem to love the new legislation, all of the middle aged and young white people don’t really give a rats ass about it, but are getting really pissed about the boycott. The local phoenix shock jocks are starting to side with the repubs cause they don’t like the rest of the country calling Arizona racist and keep getting all defensive about it. I swear it’s one big hubub designed just to move the state further right of McCain.

Comment #18: Tersa  on  05/12  at  07:18 PM

“Ok class, welcome to American History.  This quarter we’ll be covering… memorizing dates.  After that, well, nothing really.  Pretty much everything I could say would cast certain classes of people in a bad light, so we’re done here.  So, start memorizing.  There’s a big list in front of you.  Quiz tomorrow on the dates new states joined the union.”

I guess on the upside, this means that they won’t be disparaging socialists, atheists, homosexuals, women, minorities, foreigners, or the UN in Arizona schools any more.  Alas, also not Nazis, criminals, brutal dictators or the like.  Wouldn’t want people resenting child abusers, after all.

Comment #19: libdevil  on  05/12  at  07:20 PM

The real story was they were grandstanding legislation that would couldn’t stand up to any challenge or be enforced that was costing the state money it didn’t have. I would be kind of surprised if the exact same thing wasn’t happening in Arizona.

There’s probably a few idiots who actually believe in the law but I suspect, based on the premise that in a given group of people not all of them can be complete utter morons, that this was specifically the case.  Forget race relations, the whole damn thing is too vague to stop anyone from raising the issue about anything.

Forget the Civil War, you can’t talk about the American bloody Revolution.  I mean, British aristocrats are people too.

Comment #20: KeithM  on  05/12  at  07:22 PM

Unfortunately, pharmakos, they just repassed those laws.

The Governor did veto, and he was overridden (including Democrats!) but the law was tossed out b/c they have another law that prevents multiple laws being passed as one.  Not only did this protect doctors from “wrongful life” lawsuits, it also mandated vaginal ultrasounds and other lovely invasions of privacy, unnecessary medical procedures and getting between a doctor and a patient.

So now the legislature has repassed the laws as single acts.

Hateful m-fs in that state.

Comment #21: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  05/12  at  07:28 PM

with little to no tax revenues, the state won’t be able to afford public education.

I believe most Republicans and elderly white people, to the extent that these groups are not the same, would regard that as a feature, rather than a bug.

Comment #22: felagund  on  05/12  at  07:31 PM

“Ok class, welcome to American History.  This quarter we’ll be covering… memorizing dates.  After that, well, nothing really.  Pretty much everything I could say would cast certain classes of people in a bad light, so we’re done here.”

...next law in Arizona: Remove citizenship and deport all teachers who have a bad attitude regarding any of the previous nonsensical and racist laws they recently passed…

Comment #23: MikeEss  on  05/12  at  07:49 PM

They can pass them as many times as they like (unfortunately) and they’ve been trying for like 4 or 5 years with those laws I still can’t imagine any of them holding up in court. The deliberate lying to the patient thing is so off the wall batshit insane it can’t possibly survive.

Stupid legislation getting passed is hardly uncommon in oklahoma. Take any issue, video game sales, movie censorship restrictions (The Tin Drum, etc), imports of pornography, and Oklahoma has legislated it, been admonished in court, and ultimately forced to pay large fines. It’s sort of a pastime, I guess. Well according to a guy I know from there who is into his current events

Anyhow this is an Arizona topic so discussing okie laws is probably a bit of a derail.

Comment #24: pharmakos  on  05/12  at  07:50 PM

I live in Arizona. I was a school board member for many years here. I am totally against racism. I am pro school. I am pro legal immigration.

I am against what the influx of illegal immigrants are doing to our government services in Arizona, but I will restrict my comments to the school system. Some estimates put the burden of providing a free education including remedial education for the illegal population at right around 1 billion dollars out of a 6 billion dollar budget. Do the math. Our school system is going broke because we are educating children who shouldn’t be here anyway because their families are here illegally.

Arizona has been faithfully stuck in last place in the country in terms of per capita education funding for the two decades that I can speak knowledgeably about. Now, things are much worse. The recession has shown us that there is no way to continue to be nice guys and educate children who rightfully should be educated elsewhere. We can’t even properly educate the ones who are citizens. Our children are suffering, and the rest of the country is vilifying us because we don’t want to watch that any more.

Currently, Arizona really does not have the resources to properly provide education on the core subjects like math, reading, writing and science. Don’t be surprised if all of these ethnic sensitivity classes are eliminated. Also don’t be surprised if everything but the State and Federally mandated core classes are eliminated. All social science classes, including history, are in the cross hairs.

These are not actions we take because we are small minded hate filled bigots, these are among some of the hardest and least desirable options that I have ever witnessed.

And on top of all of that, the rest of the country is doing a harsh knee jerk reaction calling us every right wing hateful slur ever invented, when all we are trying to do is survive.

Here is a link about the latest wave of budget issues affecting teacher employment, but make no mistake, the State is already warning school districts that a further 10% budget cut is on the horizon for the next year:

http://www.kold.com/Global/story.asp?S=12469500

Comment #25: REXIMUS  on  05/12  at  07:52 PM

Damn.  Pharmakos is right.  It’s a win-win for the wingers.  They force liberals to expend resources fighting the laws, then force politicians to take a stand on it.  If the boycott is successful, they can use the revenue drop to justify cutting more social spending.  Meanwhile, there will be little substantial help from the federal level.

Comment #26: Sam Holloway  on  05/12  at  07:57 PM

REXIMUS-

Perhaps you should look at your libertarian citizens setting up districts with no schools and a state that never saw a prison bond it didn’t like but can’t be bothered to actually spend some money on the school.

Or, you could continue to scapegoat illegal immigration and then rightfully be called the bigots that you are.  Really, choice is yours.

Comment #27: Antigone  on  05/12  at  08:03 PM

Prohibits a school district or charter school from including in its program of instruction any courses or classes that:
* Promote the overthrow of the United States government.
* Promote resentment toward a race or class of people.
* Are designed primarily for pupils of a particular ethnic group.
* Advocate ethnic solidarity instead of the treatment of pupils as individuals.

And of course, the most offensive part of this is the thinly disguised implication that the ethnic studies school programs in those Tucson schools, which they have fingered as the motive for this legislation, are basically Mexican-exclusive Wetback Madrassas™ that indoctrinate and train their students into assassinating white senators.

Comment #28: sacundim  on  05/12  at  08:03 PM

REXIMUS, you know what you should do then?

Lobby for immigration reform.  If you fine the shit out of corporations that hire illegals, then it become sensible and cheaper for them to hire legals at minimum wage.

Lobby to decriminalize marijuana.  The crime you get from drug runners isn’t going to go away if you deport undocumented workers and only teach White History.

The whole country is calling you racists because you are.  You are demanding to see papers of anyone who isn’t lily white.  No American should ever have to take a passport in order to travel between states.  Many many Mexicans come here legally, and many Americans of Mexican decent had ancestors that came over generations ago.

Asking any American to show papers simply because they ‘look’ Mexican is illegal and discriminatory and about as anti-American as it gets. 

You’re being boycotted and called racist because your legislature passed incredibly offensive, racist, Jose Crow laws.  Don’t like it?  Then demand that your legislature repeal it immediately.  Don’t whine that broken budgets mean you HAVE to be racist fucks, so please don’t boycott us b/c we don’t have a choice.

You have a choice.  You’ve chosen racism.  You’re being called on it.  You’re not going to withstand a court challege, so you might as well deal with it.

Comment #29: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  05/12  at  08:06 PM

And Reximus pretty much just illustrated exactly what i was talking about. Anyone close to the middle is knee jerking to the right in one big “not my Nigel”.

Comment #30: Tersa  on  05/12  at  08:11 PM

Illegal is not a race.

I am not against any race. I am against illegal.

Do you people realize that the Arizona immigration bill is a verbatim regurgitation of the law that has been on the federal books for decades? Arizona is just in a position now where we need someone to enforce it.

It will be difficult for the feds to with a suit against us when the exact same text exists in the federal code.

Comment #31: REXIMUS  on  05/12  at  08:24 PM

What I find hilarious about this is that there is no group quite so racially resentful as conservative whites.

Comment #32: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  05/12  at  08:24 PM

REXIMUS:

Were you paying attention? *Go after the companies that hire them*. Eliminate the market, eliminate the problem.

Comment #33: BrianX  on  05/12  at  08:31 PM

Reximus,

In the short term, which do you think is hurting your bottom line more?  “Illegal” immigration, which a lot of business rely on to function whether we like it or not, OR the cascading effects of several serious boycotts of your state and businesses located in your state?

Comment #34: barbara smith  on  05/12  at  08:34 PM

The laws against employers have been on the books for years. They don’t work. I am an employer, and I don’t know how those laws are circumvented, because my company has strict verification and reporting requirements, with which we comply.

Evidently everyone doesn’t because it is still a huge problem.

Besides, everyone who is complaining about the potential racial profiling aspect of this law hasn’t read it. It only applies to people that law enforcement already has in custody. Get it? Only after someone is lawfully arrested, can their status be checked. Not people speaking spanish on the street, not people who don’t “look lily white”, only someone who has been arrested for a crime need worry.

Comment #35: REXIMUS  on  05/12  at  08:40 PM

“I am not against any race. I am against illegal.”

So, EVERY PERSON in Arizona should be required to “show their papers” then, right? I mean, how do you “know” if someone is illegal? Will you be asking for papers from all white people? They could be here illegally from Canada. All Asian people? All black people? Oh right, you’ll just be asking the Hispanic people. They’re the only ones who could possibly be in the country illegally, right?

Comment #36: Mark  on  05/12  at  08:40 PM

I know that EVERY PERSON who is pulled over for a traffic stop is asked for their driver’s license as the first order of business. It IS illegal to drive without it.

Comment #37: REXIMUS  on  05/12  at  08:42 PM

I teach a class called “Diversity in American Society.” It’s basically a sociology of race and ethnicity. That class would likely be illegal in Arizona now.

Comment #38: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  05/12  at  08:48 PM

Its kind of funny how in the free market capital can move pretty freely while labor can’t. Anyhow its one thing to say we can’t pay for all the people who don’t pay taxes (despite totally being unwilling to ourselves and only doing so because the man says we have to) and quite another to decide that you are going to harass a bunch of people on the basis of their skin tone and do your level best to minimize their significance in society by removing all education about them and their past. Even if the history of white people and hispanic people in Arizona and the south was puppy dogs and rainbows you would still have the same jackasses saying we find the discussion of rainbows divisive because rainbows aren’t part of white history (I know there is a better joke there but I’m not sure what it is).

Comment #39: pharmakos  on  05/12  at  08:50 PM

The Diversity in American Society class would not be illegal, probably just unfunded, because it is not a state or federal requirement, and Arizona can’t even afford to pay for things that are mandated right now.

Comment #40: REXIMUS  on  05/12  at  08:52 PM

“Ok class, welcome to American History.  This quarter we’ll be covering… memorizing dates.  After that, well, nothing really.

C’mon, how else are schools supposed to prep kids for NCLB multiple choice tests?

/neoCon

Comment #41: Gracchus.  on  05/12  at  08:58 PM

Just listen at the completely-not-racist. People have told him several times that employer sanctions are the best way, and he doesn’t care.

Notwithstanding he is actually wrong about the law. It makes it a criminal offense, under federal law it is a civil offense. It is not restricted to those in custody, it is anybody that is “suspicious.”

You can’t use race, but neither did most Jim Crow laws. Where do you think the phrase Grandfather Clause came from? And a license is not proof of citizenship, neither is a social security card.

It reminds me of all those pro-lifers, when told that the best way to reduce the holocaust of snowflake babies is contraception, education, and healthcare start complaining about taxes and premarital sex. It shows you what their priorities are. Liberals are the only ones who care about actual solutions.

15% of all illegal immigrants have left since the recession began. If there are no jobs, they will leave. Of course one of the reasons they left is because US agricultural subsidies undercut Mexican farmers, bankrupting them and forcing them to leave. #1 revenue source of the cartels is marijuana, and guess who is doing a lot of human trafficking?

Will the completely-not-racists push for changes? I’m sure we’ll all be shocked at the answer.

Comment #42: bay of arizona  on  05/12  at  08:59 PM

It’s weak sauce to “wonder” how people get hired illegally. But that’s the whole point.

This thing keeps not getting addressed because business owners want to pay spit without benefits.

<a href = “http://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/kyle-drennen/2009/06/15/cbs-immigration-raid-left-indiana-town-s-economy-tatters”>Here’s what happened to one town</a> because of that attitude.

Comment #43: WereBear  on  05/12  at  09:00 PM

Ack. Sorry about that wacky link.

Comment #44: WereBear  on  05/12  at  09:01 PM

So… you’re out of money because Isaidsothat’swhy, not because of a general unwillingness to tax at a level needed to support desired infrastructure. Interesting. If only those Neocon fairies really DID bring their little gold feces in to the legislature, then everything would be fine… Seriously, EVERYONE pays lots of taxes, like payroll and sales taxes. Illegals also pay taxes, like social security, that they don’t get the benefits of later. And don’t tell me “laws are on the books” about employers not hiring. There would be no chicken in your super market if ONLY Tyson actually followed that law. There is no will to enforce, it’s that simple, and the lack of will can be traced in a trail of shiny dollar coins straight back to corporate America. You have no stomach for the truth, so just leave already.

Comment #45: wreckerofplans  on  05/12  at  09:04 PM

Arizona has been faithfully stuck in last place in the country in terms of per capita education funding for the two decades that I can speak knowledgeably about.

Yes, it is quite a pickle: wealthy private school parents and empty-nester retirees wanting their cheap gardening, construction and childcare labour on the one hand, and yet that cheap labour brings along inconvenient externalities like children whose schooling might require higher property tax rates on their gated-community homes.

I know that EVERY PERSON who is pulled over for a traffic stop is asked for their driver’s license as the first order of business. It IS illegal to drive without it.

A driver’s license is not proof of citizenship. Neither is a Social Security card. So unless you carry around your birth certificate or passport, you could theoretically be pulled in and incarcerated until you proved otherwise. Theoretically, that is, if you skin is a certain colour or if you have a “funny” accent.

Comment #46: Gracchus.  on  05/12  at  09:06 PM

I had to show my birth certificate to get my Arizona driver’s license. I don’t know about the license being proof, but I do know about the requirement in my case.

Comment #47: REXIMUS  on  05/12  at  09:10 PM

“I know that EVERY PERSON who is pulled over for a traffic stop is asked for their driver’s license as the first order of business. It IS illegal to drive without it”

what if your are not driving?

Comment #48: jefft452  on  05/12  at  09:17 PM

The federal law is not the same because we don’t interact with federal agents in the same way. State and local law enforcement are daily parts of life for most people. US citizens do not carry papers around. So hispanic-looking people that get pulled over or what have you will be likely to be taken in for not having papers—this is more than a minor inconvenience, and will make life worse for a certain class of citizens. Furthermore, this law will further push illegal immigrants to the margin of society, making those immigrants and their children less trusting of American-institutions and less likely to integrate into society as a whole. The knee-jerk racism of this law will make many of the problems with immigration worse.

But immigrants will keep coming. As long as there are jobs and opportunities. The best way to deal with the problem is to integrate immigrants into society as much as possible. Immigrants would not be able to drive wages down if they could go to the police when they are economically exploited and if they were privy to the same wage floor and work protection as Americans. They would be able to continue paying taxes and social security, like most do, only at higher rates.

There are definitely problems with having a class of sub-citizens in a state, but further alienating and stigmatizing these citizens will only exaserbate those problems.

Comment #49: alysia  on  05/12  at  09:18 PM

I had to show my birth certificate to get my Arizona driver’s license. I don’t know about the license being proof, but I do know about the requirement in my case.

This is the problem with discussing something you don’t know about, REMIXUS. And I say that as someone who doesn’t even live in Arizona (and won’t be visiting, despite my naturalised citizenship).

Let’s be generous, though, and assume that a license is adequate—would you be comfortable with the knowledge that kids under 16, many elderly folks, the homeless, and certain disabled people could be pulled in at random off the street? Assuming, of course, that it’s not just because they “look” wrong.

Or perhaps your All-American self likes that tradition from “Old Europe” of everyone having to carry around some sort of national ID card: “Ihre papiere, bitte.

Comment #50: Gracchus.  on  05/12  at  09:20 PM

“Do you people realize that the Arizona immigration bill is a verbatim regurgitation of the law that has been on the federal books for decades?”

what federal law allows me to sue if I dont think that the feds are checking the citizenship anybody that hhey have “legal contact” with?  What federal law uses the phrase “legal contact”?

Comment #51: jefft452  on  05/12  at  09:21 PM

Also, licenses are not proof of citizenship—only birth certificates, passports, and SS cards which is why you need atleast one of those to get a job, but fake IDs (including licenses) are super easy to come by. Illegal immigrants will be sure to have their fake IDs handy at all times, but US citizens that seem “illegal” will not.

Comment #52: alysia  on  05/12  at  09:21 PM

“Do you people realize that the Arizona immigration bill is a verbatim regurgitation of the law that has been on the federal books for decades?”

Making the generous assumption that this is true,do you understand the one of the central reasons behind multiple levels of jurisdiction in America? Not to mention the concepts of interstate commerce and the tradition of free movement within national borders? For someone painting himself as a patriot, you’re woefully ignorant of American core values.

Comment #53: Gracchus.  on  05/12  at  09:28 PM

The problems with illegal immigration don’t get solved because our overlords don’t want them solved.  There’s too much profit involved for those who hire illegals, and it’s too powerful a tool for stirring up the teabagging morons to do their political bidding.

BTW, my heart cries for those poor Arizonians and their inability to find enough money to keep their population educated.  Boo Hoo!  I’m sure glad that taxing the wealthy who benefit most from the status quo is permanently off the table.  God knows how they could afford the greens fees if they had to pay another few hundred dollars per year… 

Actually, it sounds like our California Syndrome (too many fucking insane Republicans, and not enough Democrats with balls and backbones) is spreading.  But you Arizonians will have to continue to Californicate yourselves — we’re too busy here in California trying to decide whether we’re going to get screwed for 4-more years by Yet Another Asshole Republican, or Yet Another Spineless Democrat for governor.

As for myself, I’d just like to know if the molding corpse of Howard ‘Prop 13’ Jarvis is smiling because of the death and destruction left in the wake of that ill begotten law…

Comment #54: MikeEss  on  05/12  at  09:29 PM

There are definitely problems with having a class of sub-citizens in a state, but further alienating and stigmatizing these citizens will only exaserbate those problems.

The pathetic thing is, REMIXUS isn’t even taking the “reasonable” cheap-labour neoCon approach of wanting to formalise the current sorry state of affairs with a European-style guest-worker programme that keeps multiple generations of workers in a state of non-citizenship and uncertaintly. No, he’s going straight for the “deport millions and build a 2000-mile wall to keep ‘em out” fantasy of the Know-Nothings.

Comment #55: Gracchus.  on  05/12  at  09:31 PM

Gracchus, “programme?” its p-r-o-g-r-a-m, we speak American here. Don’t need you corrupting our youth by spelling all Europeanly. You can just go back to Mexico right now!

Comment #56: alysia  on  05/12  at  09:37 PM

Comment #47: REXIMUS on 05/12 at 07:10 PM

I had to show my birth certificate to get my Arizona driver’s license. I don’t know about the license being proof, but I do know about the requirement in my case.

I’m a born citizen, and I didn’t get a drivers’ license until I was 29.  I’ve never made a habit of carrying my passport around.  My first language is Spanish, so I hit a profile there.  I don’t look stereotypically Mexican, but I do look very Middle Eastern, so I hit a second profile right there.  So I would have been a prime candidate for a cop to target over this, and the habits I had for most of my life would have made it impossible for me to demonstrate otherwise on the spot.

Really, all these new Arizona laws and policies are quite transparently a way to make it easier for the authorities to harass people like me.  Some police departments are going to step up their harassment of Hispanics, and deal with the increased number of complaints by claiming that the law shields them; the few victims that sue will win, but overall, from the point of view of the harrassers, they will count it as a win.  The state government is going to cut funding to school districts that serve large numbers of Hispanic students or employ large numbers of Hispanic teachers, and then claim that it’s required to do so by law, thus forcing the districts to sue (and almost certainly win).

Comment #57: sacundim  on  05/12  at  09:39 PM

Say what you will about this new idiocy in Arizona (and I’ve already said plenty) it is likely driving Hispanics from the Republican Party in droves:

“By a two-to-one margin Hispanics are more strongly opposed than Americans overall to the recent immigration measure signed in to law in Arizona that would make it a state crime to reside there illegally.

Seven in 10, 70%, of Hispanic respondents said they are somewhat or strongly opposed to the law, compared with 34% of all respondents in the latest Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll set for release later today.

Among Hispanics, 27% are somewhat or strongly supportive of Arizona’s law; that compares with 64% of respondents overall.”

Like Digby said, a similar move by Republicans in 1994 in California, made elephants practically extinct there.

‘The Republicans also have to be worrying just a little bit about the fact that this issue falls way down the list of the country’s biggest concerns. So, while 70% of my fellow freedom loving Americans may think it’s just ducky to racially profile and even treat legal immigrants (or people who just look like them) like second class citizens, most of them are unlikely to vote on that issue.

On the other hand, young Hispanic Americans are unlikely to ever forget it.”

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2010/05/short-term-problem-for-democrats-is.html

There’s a reason one of the catch phrases on the progressive blogosphere is “What Digby said.”

Comment #58: judybrowni  on  05/12  at  09:57 PM

REXIMUS:

Some estimates put the burden of providing a free education including remedial education for the illegal population at right around 1 billion dollars out of a 6 billion dollar budget.

It sounds as if you honestly believe that illegals only come here just to leech off the government teat and make you (personally) feel bad about yourself. This is probably because you don’t have the slightest clue what the fuck you’re talking about.

Tell me, REXIMUS, would you undertake a dangerous, time-consuming, expensive, uncertain cross-border people-smuggling operation to get into a country where a not-insignificant portion of the population hates and fears you and everyone like you, just to sit around on your ass and do fuck-all for the rest of your life?

Illegals aren’t taking remedial education courses or putting their kids into public schools just for the hell of it, or because they think wasting American tax money is a great way to stick it to the man, or because they secretly know just how little your dick really is. They’re doing it so they can work. In this country. Propping up the economy that you take absolutely for granted by doing the things that you would never in your life stoop to doing, and working a whole lot harder than you do for a whole lot less money.

I know that EVERY PERSON who is pulled over for a traffic stop is asked for their driver’s license as the first order of business. It IS illegal to drive without it.

Jesus Christ, dude. Just how naïve are you? I knew how to get a fake ID when I was 12, and I was an upper-middle-class suburban kid who had neither the need nor the desire to skirt the edges the law.

They’re illegal, not stupid.

Comment #59: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  05/12  at  09:58 PM

As for Reximus and his claims of the burden illegal children cost the state in education, I know where they could find the bucks to shore up the public education system.

“(sheriff of Maricopa County, Arizona, Joe) Arpaio has instructed his sheriff’s deputies and members of his civilian posse to arrest illegal aliens. Arpaio told the Washington Times, “My message is clear: if you come here and I catch you, you’re going straight to jail…. I’m not going to turn these people over to federal authorities so they can have a free ride back to Mexico. I’ll give them a free ride to my jail.”[31]

On March 3, 2009, the United States Department of Justice “notified Arpaio of the investigation in a letter saying his enforcement methods may unfairly target Hispanics and Spanish-speaking people.” [32]

From 2004 through November 2007, Arpaio was the target of 2,150 lawsuits in U.S. District Court and hundreds more in Maricopa County courts, with more than $50 million in claims being filed,[60] 50 times as many prison-conditions lawsuits as the New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago, and Houston jail systems combined.[61]”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio#Lawsuits_filed_by_Joe_Arpaio_and_the_MCSO

That’s $50 million (and counting) just through 2007, not including legal fees which Arizona also must pick up, and now Arizona, the state has followed in Joe’s footsteps for attacting lawsuits on a statewide scale!

Of course, for the racist, conservative that’s a bonus: money lost which can then both be cut from social services (and the school system), while simultaneously giving those creeps something more to bitch about!

Throw in the millions lost from tourism and convention business, and it’s a holy clusterfuck excuse to rip the textbooks from the hands of little brown buggers who have the nerve to want to learn their ABCs, while their parents are slaving away for less than minimum wage.

They can’t lose: except with the Hispanics who will soon outnumber and outvote the whitey bastards.

Comment #60: judybrowni  on  05/12  at  10:21 PM

Whenever my father has the nerve to complain about “illegal aliens,” I ask, “So you’re going to go pick the tomatoes now?”

No, he’s not, and he also didn’t suggest his children aspire to the profession, and since slavery has been abolished (more or less)...

But he was all in favor of the Hispanic lady my sister, the doctor, hired to care for her baby, saying something to the effect that those Hispanic baby tenders were known to be more motherly, good with children (then the white trash who are the only other group who might agree to work for the wage, was the implication.)

Comment #61: judybrowni  on  05/12  at  10:33 PM

Our school system is broke because we refuse to pay taxes on anything ever.  Oh, except sales tax.  Sorta. 

I thought conservatives and libertarians were at least sometimes against wasting money, but they support Arpaio in his program of Using my Power Against People I Don’t Like, Going on TV, and Losing Lawsuits.

Comment #62: lonespark  on  05/12  at  11:35 PM

Oh, Judy got to Sheriff Joe before I did.  And I just lost my job keeping gasoline out of Reximus’s drinking water, so I should have extra blog time.

Comment #63: lonespark  on  05/12  at  11:43 PM

The Diversity in American Society class would not be illegal, probably just unfunded, because it is not a state or federal requirement, and Arizona can’t even afford to pay for things that are mandated right now

Fool don’t even understand what the bill at the heart of this thread is about. The white supremacists in the AZ legislature have basically banned ethnic studies. This isn’t because of budget cuts, but purely because of white racial resentment. You want people to stop thinking you’re a bunch of racists, then you need to stop electing racists.  There is no group so racially resentful as conservative whites.

Comment #64: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  05/12  at  11:50 PM

More money wasted on the Sheriff Joe Program of Hassling Brown People, including driving the county insurance fees up:

“For the period January 1, 1993, to [November 29, 2007], the county has paid $30,039,928.75 on Sheriff Department General Liability claims,” state the docs. “This figure includes all payments, attorney fees, other litigation expenses, settlements, payments on verdicts, etc.”

Additionally, New Times asked Crowley how much the lawsuit insurance policy that also covers the sheriff has cost taxpayers. Crowley croaked, “The county has paid for General Liability coverage for the period 3-1-95 to 3-1-08 total premiums of $11,345,609.50.”

Keep in mind that this liability coverage figure is high, in part, because of all those lawsuit payoffs to relatives of dead inmates.

From 1995 to 1998, the county paid $328,894 a year for an insurance policy with a $1 million deductible.

Today, Maricopa County pays a yearly premium of $1.2 million for outside insurance with a $5 million deductible. For any lawsuit that costs $5 million or less, the county foots the entire bill.” It’s the best policy the county can buy because of Arpaio’s terrible track record.

Yup, those are the expense of Hassling Brown People for Fun in just one county of Arizona. Now that Sheriff Joe’s liability is going statewide, multiply that by the 16 counties.

Yup, definitely won’t be enough money left over to educate little brown people.

Comment #65: judybrowni  on  05/13  at  12:19 AM

Ooops, didn’t show my work: here’s the link to the New Math for Hassling Brown People in Arizona:

http://www.arpaio.com/wordpress/?p=90

Comment #66: judybrowni  on  05/13  at  12:21 AM

Comment #64: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits on 05/12 at 09:50 PM

Fool don’t even understand what the bill at the heart of this thread is about. The white supremacists in the AZ legislature have basically banned ethnic studies.

No, they didn’t ban ethnic studies.  That would have been too honest and straightforward.  What they’ve done is pass a law that, strictly speaking, bans public schools from being a kind of strawman wetback madrassa that exists only in their imaginations, as part of a campaign to harass a Hispanic-dominated school district that offers an ethnic studies program that doesn’t actually violate the law they just passed, but had the temerity to allow a civil rights activist to tell the students that Republicans hate Latinos.

Comment #67: sacundim  on  05/13  at  12:23 AM

I hate to add to the pile-on of REXIMUS, but really, “ethnic sensitivity classes”?  Come on, if you’re going to pretend to be a left-leaning moderate, you might want to lay off the condescending dogwhistles.

Comment #68: Leely  on  05/13  at  12:50 AM

How in heck are they going to teach any part of US History from 1876 - 1913?  Are they going to completely eliminate any instruction about Robber Barons, or are they just going to re-name them “Fluffy Bunnies?”

“There were some nasty things happening, but we have to abscribe those to individuals, because suggesting that people have different interests based on how much and how they get their money, and that these different interests translates into political conflict and struggles is totally against Americanism. In this Great and Free Land of Liberty of Ours, these Fruited Plains from Sea to Sea, there are some things we cannot talk about to children.  Lest they learn somethings we don’t want them to learn and think about things we don’t want them to think.

“Isn’t that what Liberty truly means?”

Comment #69: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  05/13  at  12:56 AM

There is no reason to pass this ethnic studies law other than racism. It’s not saving anybody any money. You can’t hide behind claims about “illegals” and law enforcement. This is all about white people who think that every time a bunch of Hispanic people get together and speak Spanish, they must be plotting La Reconquista.

In other words, this law by itself makes Remixus a liar. If he really believes it’s all about illegal aliens using up tax dollars, which I doubt.

Still, I’m sure he’ll be very happy next year as my son and his public school classmates, 85% of whom are Hispanic, deal with classes of 45+ kids, no teacher’s assistants, and no special education help. Does it concern him that American kids are getting bargain-basement educations like this? Does it bother him that American kids’ futures are being flushed down the toilet? Nope, not as long as those rotten illegal 6-year-olds aren’t getting a red cent of his tax money.

Comment #70: sophronia  on  05/13  at  01:41 AM

Starting an urban legend that these dirty illegals were driving around in cars with Republican bumper stickers might be useful. It would give pissed-off cops an excuse for tagging - I’m sorry “a reason to suspect” - any wingnut pulled over and getting them to give IDs.

Yeah, I’ve SEEN hordes of Hispanics buying “Palin 2012!” stickers.  They flog them off in Mexico so wetbacks can pass in Arizona unnoticed, man.

Comment #71: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  05/13  at  02:26 AM

REXIMUS, you’re full of it. First, I haven’t seen a single serious research study showing the net economic effect of illegal immigration is negative (No, the stuff the Heritage Foundation publishes doesn’t count, in case you’re wondering). Second, when California started going trhough its own budget woes, many of your fellow Arizonians publicly gloated about “taking industry away from California” because AZ had lower taxes that made it competitive. So don’t come crying about running out of money now. Bigotry is no substitute for knowledge on public policy and macroeconomics.

Comment #72: Dan2108  on  05/13  at  03:19 AM

I know that EVERY PERSON who is pulled over for a traffic stop is asked for their driver’s license as the first order of business. It IS illegal to drive without it.

that fucking made me laugh. I have licenses from 3 countries (only partially overlapping with the two countries I’m a citizen of). Not even a SS card is proof of citizenship; I have one of those, too.

Plus one of the easiest things to get in the U.S. is a fake driver’s license. Or where do you think all those drunk teens come from?

Comment #73: jadehawk  on  05/13  at  03:25 AM

I’m hoping Ms. Kagan’s opinion on Arizona’s unconstitutional laws will be asked at her confirmation hearing.  Her answer will tell us a LOT.

Comment #74: Kwillow  on  05/13  at  04:11 AM

* Promote the overthrow of the United States government.
* Promote resentment toward a race or class of people.
* Are designed primarily for pupils of a particular ethnic group.
* Advocate ethnic solidarity instead of the treatment of pupils as individuals.

The message is “illegals” want to overthrow the government, 2. hate all White people, 3. Want their “ethnic” group to be pandered to by being ... recognized, and 4. are NOT individuals, like all other (white) Americans, but just a clump of undifferentiateed ... brown-skinned ... Terrifying ... Eeeevil ... Others.

Comment #75: Kwillow  on  05/13  at  04:20 AM

What document do Arizona police accept as legitimate I.D.?  If not drivers license or SocSec Card, what?  It is EASY to get a valid (stolen) birth certificate.  Probably easier than getting a driver’s license.

As for REXetc:  Illegal immigrant adults work very hard and contribute to the state economy in a big, probable vital way.  They pay most taxes except, I assume, income tax.  Their kids are not getting a FREE education, their parents are paying for it.

Comment #76: Kwillow  on  05/13  at  04:29 AM

REXIMUS:

Currently, Arizona really does not have the resources to properly provide education on the core subjects like math, reading, writing and science. Don’t be surprised if all of these ethnic sensitivity classes are eliminated. Also don’t be surprised if everything but the State and Federally mandated core classes are eliminated. All social science classes, including history, are in the cross hairs.


If it’s simply a funding issue, and nothing to do with racism, why does the legislation specifically target these classes that are (allegedly) for “a particular ethnic group”, and frame the outlawing of such classes in terms of ‘resentment’ and ambitions to overthrow the government?

And as others have noted, I get out my tiny violin of sympathy at Arizona’s discovery that all that uber-cheap labour that props up your state’s economy doesn’t, in fact, come without costs elsewhere in the system. Workers wanting to have CHILDREN, and have them educated, too! Whatever next, women asking for the vote?

Why should children have to suffer for the desire of business to make more profit by circumventing labour laws?

Comment #77: Nic_C  on  05/13  at  06:32 AM

They pay most taxes except, I assume, income tax.

sometimes that, too.

Comment #78: jadehawk  on  05/13  at  06:32 AM

Ø Promote resentment toward a race or class of people.

Ø Are designed primarily for pupils of a particular ethnic group.

So anything that breeds resentment towards Hispanics is out, as is any curriculum designed around whites?  Sure, I’ll believe that when I see it.

Comment #79: DaveL  on  05/13  at  07:00 AM

“Fool that he is white.  Which, of course, means that in the American diaspora, Fool has been routinely educated about his cultural heritage in classes called “History” and “Social Studies” and “English””

Um, no. I’m white. “English” is not my heritage. And I’ve never learned anything about my German or French cultural heritage in school.  Are we taught that only 100 years ago German was a major language in the United States with theaters, newspapers, novelists, etc? No. Are we taught about the socialist traditions that inspired many German immigrants? No.  Do we ever learn how the Anglophile elite dragged this country into WWI, jailing pacifists and socialists and encouraging hatred and violence toward German Americans? No we don’t.  As for French - well being French apparently makes you a traitor these days.  How many kids learn that the French basically won the American revolution? It might help if we could explore some of the divisions that underlie “white” rather than let the Right get away with the fiction that all white Americans are one big Christian Southern fried happy family.

Comment #80: vanya6724  on  05/13  at  07:42 AM

It is EASY to get a valid (stolen) birth certificate.  Probably easier than getting a driver’s license.

The hilarious thing about that is that, considering the current state of Arizona’s inhabitants, a lot of these people are the same upstanding folks who think Obama’s birth certificate is fake, and yet somehow good enough to fool the FBI, CIA, and whomever else he needs to fool in order to get presidential security clearances. 

I mean, hell, if he can get one THAT good, I imagine any illegal immigrant can get a decent enough fake one to pass inspection if they really try hard enough.

Comment #81: trollprincess  on  05/13  at  08:37 AM

The message is “illegals” want to overthrow the government, 2. hate all White people, 3. Want their “ethnic” group to be pandered to by being ... recognized, and 4. are NOT individuals, like all other (white) Americans, but just a clump of undifferentiateed ... brown-skinned ... Terrifying ... Eeeevil ... Others.

Nope, the message isn’t about “illegals” but “Latinos” and other “ethnics”

Comment #82: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  05/13  at  08:50 AM

vanya, German history and language were erased from school curricula deliberately during an outbreak of nativist hysteria during WWI. Source (googlebooks). There were English-only laws and everything. Where do you think Salisbury Steak comes from? It’s just a previous generation’s Freedom Fries. What we are doing now is what we did then, partially because of the failure you note to teach history.

This bill, incidentally, makes it pretty much impossible to teach history.

Comment #83: purpleshoes  on  05/13  at  08:56 AM

Have I mentioned how much I hate the word “illegal” without a qualifier? About half the people who currently do not have paperwork to permit them to be in the US entered legally (on tourist visas, on student visas that expired, etc.) There are huge swaths of the “illegal” population who are licensed to be in the US, but are not licensed to work. There are people who came in as H2A or H2B guestworkers, but because of the sometimes brutal treatment of guestworkers (who are essentially indentured to one employer for the season - they live in the employer’s lodgings and often have no means of transportation nor anyone to appeal to if they’re mistreated) switched employers, making them “illegal”.

Also, apparently crossing a national border is the only crime you can try a two-year-old for. I hate this nativist hysteria we’re currently embarked on. I think it’s flatly horrible and there’s no defending it morally. And I am for actual demand-side enforcement of immigration laws - and moreover, labor laws. If you have to treat everyone decently and pay them the same wage, then it makes no more sense to hire someone from Oaxaca as Ohio and the economic preference for someone who’s alone and friendless and can’t appeal to labor law disappears. Ghettoization of guestworkers and other immigrant labor is exactly what you need to really exploit the hell out of them. Fuck Arizona, in conclusion.

Comment #84: purpleshoes  on  05/13  at  09:02 AM

This bill, incidentally, makes it pretty much impossible to teach history.

For Know-Nothings and neoCons alike, that’s a feature and not a bug.

Comment #85: Gracchus.  on  05/13  at  09:04 AM

in USA “latino” is a “race”? so.. if you are from any latin american country you are not… “white”?
i’m from latin america and i look irish (oh! am i.. “white” or am i not?): could i be an illegal inmigrant in Arizona and no one will notice or care? because i don’t look “latina”...

Comment #86: ceci  on  05/13  at  09:15 AM

I note this comment in reply to the above-quoted Jammie Wearing Fool’s post:
“I consider Arizona to be Ft. Sumter, the first shot fired in the War Against Multicultural Political Correctness.  And long overdue”

Well, that’s an - interesting comparison.  Considering.

Comment #87: Ledasmom  on  05/13  at  09:20 AM

REXIMUS, I disagree with your core assumption that illegal immigration is necessarily a bad thing and is wrong. Legal immigration in the USA is very tightly controlled and cuts to the advantage of privileged and connected foreigners, rather than economic migrants, therefore denying many ambitious and talented people the opportunities American citizens enjoy, often by birth right.

By what principle can we privilege the claim of self-advancement of an American citizen over the same claim by a foreigner, similarly situated in all respects save his or her citizenship? I do not believe it is possible to come up with a morally defensible principle to privilege the American citizen’s claim, because it requires falling back on circumstances of birth, wealth, privilege, or a combination of these - all morally arbitrary characteristics that are insufficient bases for defensible notions of desert and merit. The rules by which we exclude a large number immigrants from our society and our country are not rules we would agree, except from the comfortable stance of knowing we already have citizenship or some easy way to obtain it, and hence these rules are not fair and are not right.

Comment #88: Luke  on  05/13  at  10:27 AM

Oh, I almost forgot to add: Anti-immigration activists act on a principle far, far worse than just wanting selfishly to reserve the benefits and opportunities of American citizenship for those who have already obtained it, such as themselves:

They don’t like people who speak Spanish, and they don’t like people who have darker skin.

So even if it were morally defensible to make rigid distinctions on citizenship grounds (which it is not), the racism and prejudice of the anti-immigration camp would still be unexcusable. And they can crow about how their only objection is to “illegal” immigrants all they want, but I call bullsh-t.

Comment #89: Luke  on  05/13  at  10:48 AM

So unless you carry around your birth certificate or passport, you could theoretically be pulled in and incarcerated until you proved otherwise.

Make that your original birth cetrificate, not a notarized copy.  If Republicans won’t accept the President’s birth certificate, they sure won’t accept the average Jose’s.

Comment #90: Susa  on  05/13  at  11:02 AM

Ø Promote the overthrow of the United States government.

and

Ø Are designed primarily for pupils of a particular ethnic group.

WTF?  Why are these two things even on the same list?  It’s like they throw that first one in there to scare people, and then equate an innocent thing to a a terrible thing.  What is wrong with these people?

Let their parents teach them about it.

Hypocrites, all of them.  When we try to say this about teaching creationism or other religious indoctrination in schools, they get all cranky about it, even though the first amendment is supposed to protect kids from having religion forced on them.  But when we want to do something that’s perfectly legal, they tell us to do what they are unwilling to do.

Comment #91: bananacat  on  05/13  at  11:17 AM

I would actually like to see some information on how this law is being enforced. On the face of it, it doesn’t read like it bans classes like “mexican-american studies” unless those classes are only offered to mexican-american students, or teach things like overthrowing the US government. In my experience, there would be nothing to stop white students from taking these classes, and they probably don’t teach things like overthrowing the US government, so how exactly does this law ban them?

I’m not saying I would be surprised to see it used in that way, but it seems like there’s still some work for them to do. Don’t they have to go to court and “prove” that these classes violate this law? Is it really going to result in all of these classes disappearing next week?

Comment #92: geogami  on  05/13  at  11:31 AM

Reximus,

I just have one question for you.  How the fuck could ethnic studies programs increase or promote illegal immigration?  Do you think these classes are just cover-ups for massive conspiracies for helping people to enter this country illegally?  Do you think the teachers give out homework assignments that require each student to sneak in illegal immigrant during the night?  This entire thread has absolutely nothing to do at all with illegal immigration, so why are you bringing it up?  What you are talking about is completely irrelevant.  Or is that you associate all non-white people with illegal immigration so you can’t help but make that association in your head?

Comment #93: bananacat  on  05/13  at  11:33 AM

In my experience, there would be nothing to stop white students from taking these classes, and they probably don’t teach things like overthrowing the US government, so how exactly does this law ban them?

From the bill:

Ø Are designed primarily for pupils of a particular ethnic group.

Read carefully.  It doesn’t ban classes that are exclusive to a particular ethnic group.  It bans classes that are “designed primarily” for them.  That’s pretty vague, and you’ll have to excuse me if I don’t give the conservatives the benefit of the doubt.  White students may be allowed to take “mexican-american studies”, and some of them probably would take a class like that, but it would probably attract mostly people of Mexican heritage.

Comment #94: bananacat  on  05/13  at  11:36 AM

Hypocrites, all of them.  When we try to say this about teaching creationism or other religious indoctrination in schools, they get all cranky about it, even though the first amendment is supposed to protect kids from having religion forced on them.  But when we want to do something that’s perfectly legal, they tell us to do what they are unwilling to do.

IOKIYAR

Comment #95: Sour Kraut  on  05/13  at  11:39 AM

It doesn’t ban classes that are exclusive to a particular ethnic group.  It bans classes that are “designed primarily” for them.  That’s pretty vague, and you’ll have to excuse me if I don’t give the conservatives the benefit of the doubt.

This is the kind of thing I’m talking about, though. Its so vague, it doesn’t seem to me to be a slam-dunk that it would actually ban these classes, even if that was the intent. If I were a lawyer arguing about this, I might argue that Mexican-American history classes are more important for white students who wouldn’t otherwise know about it, or at least equally important for all kids.

I’m not giving the authors of the law the benefit of the doubt at all, I believe that they intended to shut down these classes. What I’m saying is, I’d like to see some details on how well their intent is actually working. Are these classes really being shut down on such vague and flimsy grounds? Are there no lawyers fighting about how ridiculous the language of the bill is to enforce anything?

Best case scenario: maybe this will encourage the schools to encourage more white kids to take these classes. When I was in high school we didn’t have ethnic studies classes, but we did have a women’s literature class that I took, and I was disappointed that it was 99% female students and the teacher was not receptive at all to the one male student who signed up.

Comment #96: geogami  on  05/13  at  11:47 AM

I’m so glad that wingers are for local control and against big government. Oh, wait…

Comment #97: Steve LaBonne  on  05/13  at  12:05 PM

This is the kind of thing I’m talking about, though. Its so vague, it doesn’t seem to me to be a slam-dunk that it would actually ban these classes, even if that was the intent.

I’m sorry, but it seems that you have much more faith in the public school system than I do.

If I were a lawyer arguing about this, I might argue that Mexican-American history classes are more important for white students who wouldn’t otherwise know about it,

You might do that, but not many lawyers would.  I doubt many would even be willing to take on these cases.  If something like this came up though, I could easily argue that since the majority of students in the Mexican-American history classes are of Mexican heritage, then it is actually designed primarily for that ethnic group.  The only way to make a solid case would be to force non-Hispanic students to take this class to even it out, or to prevent some Hispanic students from taking this class, which achieves pretty much what the bill intended.

Comment #98: bananacat  on  05/13  at  12:12 PM

The only part of the law I agree with is the first part (banning classes that promote the overthrow of the federal government), mostly because I wouldn’t want a neo-Confederate or some Tim McVeigh like nutjob teaching my kid history, but the rest are ridiculous.

<blockquote>In this Great and Free Land of Liberty of Ours, these Fruited Plains from Sea to Sea</b>

Hey, it’s not like we refer to ourselves as “God’s Own Country” like a certain nation I could name. How’s that for nationalism! wink

Comment #99: Ben D.  on  05/13  at  12:16 PM

They banned ethnic studies?  I guess they’ll be banning women’s studies next.  They probably think that all these minorities and women are just getting too uppity for Arizona!

Comment #100: Lyr  on  05/13  at  12:21 PM

It might help if we could explore some of the divisions that underlie “white” rather than let the Right get away with the fiction that all white Americans are one big Christian Southern fried happy family.

This. A lot of “white” groups have little in common with each other historically or culturally. Jews that came here in the late 1800s to escape the Czar’s pogroms and settled in New York have very little in common with the historical experience of Scots-Irish rednecks that settled in Appalachia in the early 1700s. So you can’t really have “white history”.

BTW the same goes for hispanics. It’s kind of a silly catch-all category. You can’t even say hispanic means “brown”—Costa Ricans and Argentines are lily-white. And what about Brazilians, who are from Latin America but don’t speak Spanish? It’s as vague and catch-all as “white”.

Comment #101: Ben D.  on  05/13  at  12:31 PM

I’m sorry, but it seems that you have much more faith in the public school system than I do.

I don’t understand why it seems people are attacking me for “having faith” or “giving benefit of the doubt” so let me be clear. I am NOT saying that I have any faith that anyone in Arizona will do anything right, ok? I’m saying that I have so far not seen any direct reporting or evidence on what is actually happening to any specific classes that may fall under this law, and I would like to see some information on that. That is all. I am not saying that I think that information will be good, just that I don’t think the wording of the law is sufficient to assume that all of these classes have now disappeared. I want to hear how the schools are actually reacting, what is really happening with these classes. If they are really being shut down, there should be some stories about specific classes that are being shut down, and interviews with the students and teachers affected. I am just saying that I would like to see some of that information, not that I’m not alarmed at the law itself.

Comment #102: geogami  on  05/13  at  12:32 PM

Comment #92: geogami on 05/13 at 09:31 AM

I would actually like to see some information on how this law is being enforced. On the face of it, it doesn’t read like it bans classes like “mexican-american studies” unless those classes are only offered to mexican-american students, or teach things like overthrowing the US government. In my experience, there would be nothing to stop white students from taking these classes, and they probably don’t teach things like overthrowing the US government, so how exactly does this law ban them?

I’m not saying I would be surprised to see it used in that way, but it seems like there’s still some work for them to do. Don’t they have to go to court and “prove” that these classes violate this law? Is it really going to result in all of these classes disappearing next week?

The classes aren’t going to disappear next week.  Relevant quote (from LA Times):

School districts that don’t comply with the new law could have as much as 10% of their state funds withheld each month. Districts have the right to appeal the mandate, which goes into effect Dec. 31.

Also, the Tucson school district is not taking down the program, and so far seems willing to challenge the state:

Tucson Unified School District officials say the Chicano studies classes benefit students and promote critical thinking. “We don’t teach all those ugly things they think we’re teaching,” said Judy Burns, the president of the district’s governing board.

She has no intention of ending the program, which offers courses from elementary school through high school in topics such as literature, history and social justice, with an emphasis on Latino authors and history. About 3% of the district’s 55,000 students are enrolled in such classes.

But anyway, the point is quite transparently to escalate official harassment of the Hispanic community in Arizona.  They don’t need to win in court to do that; if it goes to court, they’ve already won, from their point of view.

My guess is that, first of all, from now on, you’re going to be hearing the following phrase very often from Arizona officials: “The Tucson school district, which is under official investigation for multiple allegations of promoting resentment toward a race or class of people.”  Because, you know, saying over and over that the state is officially investigating them makes the allegations about 117.3% more true than they were before.

The second thing they’re probably going to do is implement that 10% state funding cut to the school district they’re harassing.  They’ll almost certainly lose in court on that one, but the real question is how long they can stretch the funding cut.  And anyway, after they lose that one, they’ll just try something else.

Comment #103: sacundim  on  05/13  at  12:49 PM

I’m saying that I have so far not seen any direct reporting or evidence on what is actually happening to any specific classes that may fall under this law,

Maybe that’s because the law is very new and there hasn’t been enough time for anyone to do anything truly horrible with it yet.  I think you are naive for thinking that it’s unlikely that it will be abused in the future.  I think this law will make it too easy shut down legitimate courses on a whim, and I’d prefer to get rid of this law before it happens.  Once the classes start getting canceled, it will be too late to reverse anything.

And I’m not attacking you for being optimistic; I just think it’s naive.  I’ve seen too many other cases of thinly-veiled racism and useless school policies that have turned out very baldy, and this combination of both makes me especially pessimistic.

Comment #104: bananacat  on  05/13  at  12:58 PM

Let’s assume REXIMUS is arguing in good faith.

Some estimates put the burden of providing a free education including remedial education for the illegal population at right around 1 billion dollars out of a 6 billion dollar budget.</blockqute>

What estimates?  Is there data to support this premise with which you begin your argument?

<blockquote>Our school system is going broke because we are educating children who shouldn’t be here anyway because their families are here illegally.

Constitutionally, if they are born on American soil, they are American citizens.  It may not be something you like, but since the war on Native Americans 98% of all people living in America are here without permission of those who lived her previously.  See also, Irish Need not Apply, No Italians please and the 3/5th compromise.

Arizona has been faithfully stuck in last place in the country in terms of per capita education funding for the two decades that I can speak knowledgeably about.

So is the solution to eliminate education to American citizens whose parents came to America for better opportunities?  Or perhaps a better solution is pay for what you demand.  Deny an education to American citizens on minority age will not help these people become productive corporate drones when they reach their majority.

Currently, Arizona really does not have the resources to properly provide education on the core subjects like math, reading, writing and science.

So they should expend the limited resources they have firing teachers, having police checking people “papers” on every corner, and refusing to teach that America derives it strength from E Pluribus Unum?

These are not actions we take because we are small minded hate filled bigots, these are among some of the hardest and least desirable options that I have ever witnessed.

Yet, they are the first of many options that are considered and accepted.  Perhaps you should consider that these “least desired” are the ones bigoted, small minded people rush to.  Perhaps that says something about the people of Arizona.

Comment #105: cynickal  on  05/13  at  01:40 PM

I missed the ‘for an ethnic group’ in the law.  Did they just ban english as second language classes?  Or instruction in spanish?  Because those classes are useless if not aimed at a certain ethnicity (aka, language).

Comment #106: Crissa  on  05/13  at  01:51 PM

This ban strikes me as blatantly unconstitutional.

I believe there is a case about a WW I era ban on teaching German that says the state can’t do something like this.

Comment #107: rea  on  05/13  at  01:58 PM

* Advocate ethnic solidarity instead of the treatment of pupils as individuals.

No more shamrocks on the bulletin board for St. Patrick’s Day in Arizona schools.

Comment #108: rea  on  05/13  at  02:09 PM

I think you are naive for thinking that it’s unlikely that it will be abused in the future.

My goodness. I specifically said its not unlikely—I’m just saying I’d like to see more details. So far all I’ve seen on every blog is the wording of the law, which is vague and weird (what public school class has ever advocated overthrowing the US government?). I haven’t seen any details about which programs would be cut, etc, and I’d like to see those details. I know the law is new, but as I understand it goes into effect pretty much right away, right? So even if classes won’t be cancelled immediately, there has to be someone working on how to enforce this law, and I want to know what they’re doing. You’re reading a bit too much into my posts, I think.

Comment #109: geogami  on  05/13  at  02:20 PM

No more shamrocks on the bulletin board for St. Patrick’s Day in Arizona schools.

Or what about Jewish holidays, since Jews are also an ethnicity? God, this law is going to get struck down so fast.

Comment #110: Ben D.  on  05/13  at  02:29 PM

Don’t have time to discuss further, but if anyone’s interested, a culture study of Whiteness as the negative of The Other (similar to discussionts that have been had here before), but with an unusual conclusion.

Comment #111: NY Expat  on  05/13  at  02:51 PM

Ø Promote the overthrow of the United States government.
Ø Promote resentment toward a race or class of people.
Ø Are designed primarily for pupils of a particular ethnic group.
Ø Advocate ethnic solidarity instead of the treatment of pupils as individuals

Well, so much for Confederate History Month.

Comment #112: Sarcastro  on  05/13  at  03:13 PM

Well, so much for Confederate History Month.

That’s a really good point! But, do they do that in Arizona? Isn’t that more of a south-eastern thing?

Comment #113: geogami  on  05/13  at  04:58 PM

“do they do that in Arizona?”

Much of Arizona was Confederate occupied during the war, and a Confederate Territory of Arizona was organized.

Comment #114: rea  on  05/13  at  08:34 PM

Hey, it’s not like we refer to ourselves as “God’s Own Country” like a certain nation I could name. How’s that for nationalism! wink

I am wounded, wounded by the accuracy of your riposte.

In our defense, we’re English-derived.  It’s either used as a reference to the natural landscape, or as an ironic comment (‘Godzone’).  Indeed, while we’re quietly patriotic(*) the title of our national anthem, “God Defend New Zealand” is considered the biggest joke in the country (traditional reply “because no-one else is willing to”). And for that matter the second largest religion in NZ is “Jedi”, or it would be if Census New Zealand weren’t humourless bastards.

The difference between New Zealand and Alabama, Carolina and the rest of “Jesusland” is that we say it but don’t mean it, whereas they slyly insinuate it whenever they can and do mean it.  We’re the honest hypocrites.

Comment #115: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  05/13  at  10:06 PM

Hey, you mean South Carolina. NC, my neighbor to the South, is a lovely state with one of the best public university systems in the country and it voted for Obama, elected a female Governor, and kicked Liddy Dole out of office for her dastardly"godless” ad. It isn’t Jesse Helms country anymore.

I figure the right wing always shouts that they’re patriotic the loudest because in their history, the American right has almost always, either implicitly or explicitly, either failed to recognize real threats or actively work with them against the US. Example of the former; Republican isolationism in the ‘30s and even sympathy with Hitler since Fascism was just a misguided but patriotic response to the Real True Threat of COMMUNISM, don’t you know! The latter? American Civil War, with the lead role played by South Carolina itself.  Basically, they’re over-compensating.

Comment #116: Ben D.  on  05/13  at  10:23 PM

Hell even their supposed anti-Communist credentials aren’t all that strong, it was Truman who started the police of containment over the objections of right-wingers like Bob Taft, who would have been just fine with Soviet tanks rolling into Paris just so long as his taxes weren’t raised, or idiots like McCarthy who were more interested in ferreting out imaginary Stalinists at home than opposing real ones in western Europe.

Comment #117: Ben D.  on  05/13  at  10:28 PM
Page 1 of 1 pages
Commenting is not available in this channel entry.