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Next entry: WND unleashes its Obama edition of ‘Mr. President!’ Previous entry: MN: interfaith bigots promote marriage amendment - to save the world

Weighing in on a mega-controversy and then taking off

I’ve not been able to read a whole lot of blogs, but I’ve been exposed enough to see that there’s a controversy swarming around this article by Hanna Rosin on why breast-feeding is overblown.  I thought, “Uh-oh.”  It’s bad for her if her evidence is weak, but worse for her if her evidence is strong, because this is an emotional subject for reasons of class status, marital politics, middle class anxiety, and competitive child-rearing, and therefore if you actually throw a little water on the situation, it’s just going to make people more angry.  Also, she’s treading into an area of skeptical inquiry that’s one that even hardened skeptics try to avoid, which is questioning something that is undoubtedly beneficial, but whose benefits are overblown or that people use way past the point of excess, thinking that if a little is good, a lot must be even better.  In that category, I’d put everything more facial moisturizers to massage to fiber consumption to vitamins.  Yes, massages are relaxing, but they probably have no more health benefits than stretching. And vitamins are healthy, but you don’t need to double down, and sometimes doing so is dangerous.  Fiber for regularity is great, but “detoxing” is a scam.  And yep, facial moisturizers have benefits, but there’s a top limit where spending more money on a product doesn’t equal more benefits.  Humans tend towards black and white thinking, so this sort of critique can cause massive problems as people turn “not as great as advertised” into “not good at all”.  Add to it the emotional aspects of breast-feeding, and you have the makings of a shitstorm.

Which is no doubt why I’m writing this before I go gallivanting around Austin for SXSW, unable to follow up on comments.  But I thought I could add something useful to the conversation, so here goes.  Three parts: the direct scientific controversy, why feminists have been traditionally reluctant to subject breast-feeding to analysis, and why Rosin’s not wrong on the social aspects.

Critics accuse Rosin of cherry-picking her evidence against breast-feeding.  But that critique I linked is bothersome, because their evidence is that they “could” have called a dozen pediatricians and researchers.  I’d rather they contact researchers in actuality, cite studies, and avoid pediatricians, who are mainly a good group but who have a few prominent members who make a lot of money off pushing granola mommy stuff for yuppie couples (the whys on this I’ll get to), and who are more interested in serving the interests of trendy clients than using science.  I fear, for instance, that the pediatricians clamoring to get quoted are the kinds that feed anti-vaccination hysteria and then buy a new BMW.  But it’s beside the point—-they offered nothing at all but a “could”.  Rosin did use evidence, and I’d be curious to see a real critique that proves she cherry-picked it.

What is true is there is that there’s no fucking way that breast milk is as great as people act like it is, so whether or not Rosin’s other claims are suspect, I can support the big one.  There are some benefits, but it’s hard to pin down what they are exactly.  But to hear people carry on, if you don’t breast feed, your kid will graduate at the bottom of her class, and be unable to make the graduation because she’ll be stuck in bed with 15 kinds of infections.  Calling women who use formula a “public health menace”, or suggesting that it’s child abuse if you give up and use formula is exactly the sort of sexism of setting impossible standards on women that feminists see fit to criticize elsewhere.  We recognize it as sexism when we’re told that women shouldn’t drink at all because we’re all “pre-pregnant”, and we’re onto the home schoolers who claim that no one but 100% mom all the time will do until the kid’s 15 years old.  So why are we scared to look at breast-feeding under the same lens, and while agreeing that there’s health benefits, look at the way that it’s quite possibly another way of using women’s biology against us to fit us into restrained gender roles. 


One major reason comes to mind for me—-feminists like breast-feeding as a feminist act because it’s pushback against sexual objectification.  After all, one of the biggest feminist projects out there is to fight back against the belief that women exist “for” one reason and one reason only, which is to sexually gratify straight men (and then be punished for being such whores).  It’s obvious that breast-feeding is a loaded thing, especially for sexist men who flip out when they see it happening in public, and it’s loaded because it’s seen as women and babies reclaiming breasts, which “belong” to men.  I’m on board with this view of breast-feeding, but it’s always felt like a half step for me, because in a sense, it’s not really a great rebellion to expand the definition of woman from “sex object” to “sex object and nourishment for others machine”.  Obviously, the patriarchy has always had room to constrain us both to just being objects of lust and mothers—-feminists should demand for all these and a hundred more. 

It strikes me as a remarkable coincidence that the enthusiasm for breast-feeding, with its immense time demands, exploded right after it really became difficult for middle class men to demand that their wives stay at home to avoid emasculating them.  It’s fascinating that the same effect comes from different reasons—-in the past, it was, “No wife of mine is going to have a job,” and everyone understood that men had a right not to have his wife out there making everyone think that a) he doesn’t make enough money to keep a housewife and b) that he’s not wearing the pants at home.  Now, middle class men either know that’s poor form, and they may even really not want to put that on their wives.  And yet, as Rosin points out:

We were raised to expect that co-parenting was an attainable goal. But who were we kidding? Even in the best of marriages, the domestic burden shifts, in incremental, mostly unacknowledged ways, onto the woman. Breast-feeding plays a central role in the shift. In my set, no husband tells his wife that it is her womanly duty to stay home and nurse the child. Instead, both parents together weigh the evidence and then make a rational, informed decision that she should do so. Then other, logical decisions follow: she alone fed the child, so she naturally knows better how to comfort the child, so she is the better judge to pick a school for the child and the better nurse when the child is sick, and so on. Recently, my husband and I noticed that we had reached the age at which friends from high school and college now hold positions of serious power. When we went down the list, we had to work hard to find any women. Where had all our female friends strayed? Why had they disappeared during the years they’d had small children?

When different paths lead to the same destination, I have to ask how different they are.  It’s true, as the bloggers at Salon say, that some women have the immense privilege to roll a bassinet into the office and keep the job while having the baby.  But it’s been true for a long time that some women have been able to leverage a rare class privilege into liberation from patriarchal demands—-it’s not like there weren’t your Auntie Mame types prior to second wave feminism.  But for most middle class women, the baby at the job is not an option. 

What’s also being recreated is a sense that women’s morality is class-based.  In the past, the Good Woman was definitely the middle class woman who could afford to be a housewife, and working class women, especially women of color, were subject to all sorts of judgments and assumptions that they were sexually promiscuous, bad wives and mothers, etc.  And while perhaps good liberals realize that’s wrong now, somehow the same unfair judgment of immorality is being leveled against women who can’t afford to quit their jobs to breast feed full time.  Maybe you can’t consider them Bad Women to make the Good Women Good, but they are now the “bad” mothers to make middle class mothers who sacrifice their jobs for a theoretical 10 point raise in baby’s IQ feel good about themselves. 

Again, while I’m not denying that breast milk has benefits, it’s fascinating that breast-feeding has magically managed to recreate oppressive structures that make middle class women dependent on their husbands and makes it seem immoral to be a working class woman who has no choice but to work. And it’s done it without pushback from feminists, because we’re not about to give the impression of questioning breast-is-best.  In fact, I’m scared to death that people are going to deliberately misunderstand and say that I’m saying that breast is not best.  Of course it’s better, all things being equal. But all things are not equal.

It’s nearly impossible to have a sober-minded conversation about this, I fear, because it strikes at the heart of a couple of things that cause massive anxiety. One, it’s hard to reconcile the way that sexism affects even those couples that have the best of intentions.  But it’s also because breast feeding advocacy has been structured around what Barbara Ehrenreich called the “fear of falling”—-since middle class people don’t inherit wealth, but they do inherit opportunities, recreating the middle class every generation requires hard work and competition with each other.  So parents are deeply invested in getting an edge for their children, and every little thing starts to loom large as the very trick that will put your kids a leg up over everyone else. That’s the carrot—-and the stick is the fear that if you skip any of these crucial steps, your child will fail to recreate your middle class life. Breast-feeding also gives people the feeling of control over the situation, and it’s obvious that anything that can be packaged to give middle class parents the feeling that they know best and that they and only they have the power to set their children on the right path will be eaten with a spoon.  (That’s why anti-vaccination sentiment—-or even the unscientific “spacing the schedule” soft version—-is so popular, despite being routinely disproven by science.) 

All these things cause anxiety to flare up, and therefore Mommy War judging and posturing.  But it seems to me that if we really care about The Children, we need to care about the daughters as well as the sons, about the poorer kids as well as the middle class ones, and the way that breast-feeding is about class and gender (not just health) needs to be scrutinized for the benefit of all of them in their childhoods, but also in their adulthood. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 01:27 PM • (276) Comments

By and large I agree with you. I’m due in June and planning to breastfeed, and have thus started reading up on it, and I’m truly disturbed by how fetishized it is. I’ve tried mentioning this to some nursing mothers, and have occasionally been flamed and ostracized.

All things being equal (though they aren’t), nursing is cheaper and less labor-intensive than formula, which is why I’m drawn to it. I don’t think planning to nurse makes me some better mother (though others have said as much), and if it doesn’t work out I’m not going to beat myself up over it. And that what really angers me about the mommy wars; what should be personal choices designed to fit your family have become bludgeons to guilt trip women.

And yes, it really is less labor intensive, if you’re not pumping much at least. When it comes to 2 a.m. feedings a breastfeeding mother can roll over, pop the boob in the mouth and be done with it. A formula feeding mother has to get up, make a bottle, warm a bottle, bring it back up, and by this time the kid’s probably freaking out totally, making it harder to calm down and longer to get back to sleep. Or so it’s been explained to me. I’ll find out how true this is in June.

Comment #1: Ashley  on  03/18  at  01:41 PM

My wife BFed both kids exclusively until 6 months, but she had the luxury of being able to take a whole semester off with our infants (she’s a schoolteacher), and nursed intermittently until 15 months or so. The whole pumping-at-work thing is almost impossible. The problem with exclusive BFing was that our kids, especially my older daughter, were very reluctant bottle-feeders.

My wife’s observation was that La Leche League was a bunch of freaks, who liked nothing better than to make new mothers feel worse about themselves.

Comment #2: Norsecats  on  03/18  at  01:44 PM

Amanda, after reading your comments at Hugo’s place, I actually was hoping you wouldn’t write this post. You did better than I thought you would. I have two points that aren’t quite disagreement, but things I wanted to add.

1) Egalitarianism. Breastfeeding can be one factor that leads a couple into more traditional gender roles after they have kids. But it’s not like formula feeding is some magic ticket to equality. You can have an egalitarian relationship in which the mother nurses the kids, and you can have a non-egalitarian one in which the mother gives a bottle to the kids, but the father is still checked out and sees child care as “her job.” Couples who want to maintain an egalitarian relationship after having kids need to be conscientious about their division of labor, whether they end up breastfeeding or not. And if I had to pick one factor that we should push for to promote more egalitarian relationships between parents, it would be paid parental leave (and encouraging fathers to take it as well), not saying breastfeeding is for saps.

2) Class issues. Reading some of the comments from working class women who breastfed and pumped at their jobs, I think we need to be careful what policy conclusions we draw from the class issues here. Absolutely, the difficulty of pumping at many of the types of jobs lower income women work at should not be used as a bludgeon to accuse poorer women of being worse mothers. But some poorer women prefer to breastfeed, and we shouldn’t stop pressing for more accommodations in the workplace because some middle class women feel like they’re under too much pressure to breastfeed.

Women who simply don’t want to breastfeed or who find themselves unable to breastfeed should grab the formula and not look back. But if we go too far in casting this as a purely individual decision, incentives to provide accommodations wither away and women actually end up with no real “choice” in the matter. That’s the situation many poor women and even middle-class women find themselves in right now, and I don’t think there’s anything feminist about enabling that status quo.

I think the feminist focus needs to be on rejecting the cult of total motherhood and the totally unreasonable demands for perfection it places on mothers - and particularly the way in our capitalist society it places all the onus on meeting those standards on the individual - not on arguing for or against individual parenting choices.

Comment #3: chingona  on  03/18  at  01:48 PM

A debate that is only possible, I need to point out, with American-quality infrastructure, where using formula doesn’t actually run the risk of killing your kid.

Every other conversation I pop up yelling “But really only in the first world!”. And I know this isn’t a global-issues blog, except when it is. But the fact is that we have access to things like consistently sanitary water, a reasonably safe food supply, dishwashers, etc, and man, is that also a privilege that no one seems into recognizing that we can be grateful for and use.

I’m really not convinced the bassinet-in-the-office option is a bad partial goal. The exclusion of babies and children from American public life is one of the things that creates the parents who have adult lives / parents who are part of their children’s daily lives dichotomy. But it does presuppose certain things about one’s workplace; still, it wouldn’t kill Walmart to have a daycare somewhere in those cavernous stores, for example.

Comment #4: purpleshoes  on  03/18  at  01:54 PM

Parenting choices always set off a shitstorm because all of us were in some way shape or form raised ourselves. So yeah, I get really pissy when people declare that the fact that I was bottle fed makes me an emotionally stunted, stupid, sickly spawn of a complete failure of a mother. There’s no better way to piss someone off than by insulting their mum, after all.

Comment #5: Mighty Ponygirl  on  03/18  at  02:03 PM

I’ve been attending LLL meetings for the past 2 months, and norsecat I’ve had the opposite experience. Maybe it’s just my local group, but they’ve been very good at addressing my concerns and helping out women who are having problems. Not once has formula come up, as either a positive or a negative thing.

And yes, I agree, if you talk about it and set things up, you can breastfeed and have a pretty egalitarian parenting arrangement. The husbandman is taking 3 weeks of leave after I pop, and will be doing all evening diaper changes and most on the weekend (as I’ll be home during the day and since I have to wake up at night to feed her, there’s no reason to make him get up too, unless there is). Yes, because I have the boobs and will be staying home, I have more of the day to day duties, but the husbandman will be doing his fair share.

Comment #6: Ashley  on  03/18  at  02:09 PM

“A formula feeding mother has to get up, make a bottle, warm a bottle, bring it back up, and by this time the kid’s probably freaking out totally, making it harder to calm down and longer to get back to sleep. Or so it’s been explained to me. I’ll find out how true this is in June.”

Assuming you can breastfeed normally, it seems to hold pretty true.  If you wind up having any variety of issue, it can start drawing even.  Breastfeeding has the “free, less time-consuming” thing going for it, if you don’t pump much.  If you wind up having to restrict your diet, or pump frequently, or supplement with formula for whatever reason, you can wind up just running into the worst of both worlds.

I think one thing that gets a little overlooked is the distrust a lot of people are feeling, particularly with regards to their children’s health and safety, about big manufacturers and distributors.  If you’re feeding your kid breastmilk, you’re cutting down on a set of unknowables where you just have to trust that nobody on an assembly line somewhere did something or failed to do something and that’s resulted in you feeding poison to your child.  It’s a little irrational considering all the things that can get passed along in the milk, but it’s there.

Comment #7: preying mantis  on  03/18  at  02:09 PM

Purpleshoes’s point is super-important.  As is the whole class thing; pumping at work, etc. is time-consuming and otherwise energy-draining, but I’m in a situation where my job is flexible and provides excellent support for pregnant and nursing employees.  The number of jobs where that’s true is pitifully small.

I do wonder what a much more family friendly society could do.  Would we have daycare centers incorporated into every office park?  Do they have stuff like that in Europe?

A friend of mine is due to have baby any day now.  She’s the wage earner and her husband , who’s currently some version of “homemaker” will be a SAHD.  I don’t think she’s planning to breastfeed, but I was thinking about how that situation could make it fairly egalitarian.  Mom goes through pregnancy and birth and pumps milk, dad feeds kids, takes care of em most of the time, etc.

Comment #8: lonespark  on  03/18  at  02:10 PM

“So yeah, I get really pissy when people declare that the fact that I was bottle fed makes me an emotionally stunted, stupid, sickly spawn of a complete failure of a mother.”

Anecdote isn’t the plural of data, but!

My husband was breastfed for more than 3 years, and I was formula fed. I have the immune system of steel and almost never get sick, and he’s far far more sickly than I am, both with colds and more serious diseases, like whooping cough and pleurisy (and yes, we were both fully vaccinated; he still got a bunch of the vaccine-preventable diseases). A lot of the moms I know nurse and have kids who are sick all the time or have a bunch of allergies, and I know FF’d babies who are totally healthy.

I really think it’s more of a genetics thing than anything else, and I’m praying my baby gets my immune system and not her father’s.

Comment #9: Ashley  on  03/18  at  02:12 PM

Warming the bottles?  Pshaw!  If they won’t drink it cold, to hell with em!  (Maybe I’m just lucky to have very adaptable kids.)

Comment #10: lonespark  on  03/18  at  02:12 PM

So feminist men should push for paternity leave as well as what Chinoga said.

Comment #11: cynickal  on  03/18  at  02:15 PM

I do think that the individual choice of this has to take into account the physical demands and limitations involved. I have friends who were exhausted by breast-feeding because their bodies weren’t able to produce enough milk and therefore the kid was hanging on them for hours out of every day. 

By contrast, my extremely large baby (nearly 10 lbs at birth) was able to gain weight in the first week (usually newborns lose a few ounces) and weigh 16 lbs at 4 months on nothing but breast milk, because I was a lactation machine. The child could drain one breast in 5 minutes flat and move onto the other one and that was it—10 minutes and we were done. Same for pumping—I could fill a 4 oz bottle with a hand pump in five minutes, and then fill another one on the other side in another five. This had nothing to do with me or my effort or any kind of motherly virtue:  I was physiologically suited to nursing and so was this particular baby. In earlier times I would have hired myself out as a wet nurse. Again, nothing virtuous about it—luck of the biological draw.

So stop judging women for doing or not doing this—breastfeeding is something women should be able to choose based on what works—including their own bodies—for themselves and their families.

Comment #12: kajey  on  03/18  at  02:15 PM

Similar anecdotes in my family, Ashley.  I wonder if they can really remove all the confounding factors in those studies. 

The main thing preventing me from saying I want to quit breastfeeding ASAP is the cost difference.

Comment #13: lonespark  on  03/18  at  02:15 PM

It still does amaze me how expensive formula is.  There is a reason why formula has a thriving black market.  Its one of the most stolen goods in most stores.

Comment #14: Robert  on  03/18  at  02:19 PM

Ugh, the Mommy Wars.  Patriarchy and entitlement joining together for further evil.

Ashley—it doesn’t have to be all or nothing in the breast feeding dept.  I had PUPPPs and was induced with my first.  The hospital gave me benedryl without noting that it would dry up my milk.  Luckily my sister in law is an RN and her best friend a lactation consultant.  We had to give the boy formula, but then they got us breastfeeding again.

#1 son had no problems switching back and forth from breast to formula.  I was so paranoid that I “topped him off” with formula after breast feeding just to be ‘safe’.

Nipple confusion is a La Leche lie.  Getting a proper latch is not; #1 was a natural, even with the bottle switching.  The next babies had to be taught.  It’s very important not b/c the baby won’t get enough milk, but b/c it will HURT you if they don’t latch properly.  Get help in the hospital and don’t be embarrassed.  Make sure you win the fight with the newborn should s/he decide s/he prefers a bad latch.

If you want to breast feed, and it hurts, you can go down a path of pain and guilt that no one needs.

Comment #15: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  03/18  at  02:19 PM

Another side to the issue is the effect “breast is best” has on women who have children that will not breast feed or who cannot breast feed for other reasons. I watched that devastate a friend who believed herself a bad mother, flawed in some essential way because her baby would not breast feed after numerous attempts and techniques. She was also a working student with an intense schedule. She had to switch to a bottle (breast milk and formula, then eventually straight formula) to keep the baby’s weight up. Even though the bottle proved to be a struggle as well, she dealt with the sense of “failure” for months, exacerbating her general new mother anxiety and mild post partum depression. While this is not always the case, the doctors and nurses she saw during the first few months after giving birth did not alleviate her stress. The “numerous” benefits of breast feeding were touted and her ability to connect with the baby was analyzed and in some cases even criticized.

“Women who simply don’t want to breastfeed or who find themselves unable to breastfeed should grab the formula and not look back.”

And their decision should be supported by friends, partners and health care professionals.

Comment #16: HooksInMyHead  on  03/18  at  02:20 PM

I take issue with the notion that “breastfeeding” exploded as a cause and as a symbol at the same time that women were going back to work outside the home as some sort of cover for re-privatizing women and the family.  There is much, much, much more going on and it doesn’t all cut in that direction.

The move to *formula* feed was part of the notion that women should be freed up by science from gross bodily demands of children, or demands that decreased their perceived sexuality or sexual availability. The movement to formula feed went hand in hand with the new family structure modeled on idealized suburban living with the mother (upper class/white) at home. It took the place of wet nurses and of servants in a world with fewer of those and more labor saving/scientific/pure devices. 

The move back towards breastfeeding and towards celebrating the breast was part of a move towards celebrating women, the female body, sexuality and non sexual uses of the breast—towards affirming the power and importance of women in their role as mothers (not sex objects) and as nurturers not merely as producers in a market.  To the extent that it celebrates women’s lives *as mothers* it isn’t a rejection of their lives as workers in the public sphere but a celebration of a real fact in many women’s lives that they detour, at least temporarily, through motherhood.

Its important to remember that the idea that the public sphere or the work outside of the home world is so great or so important or so rewarding is itself an artifact of class. Women who work cleaning toilets or offices late at night, fast food jobs, walmart greeter like the monetary independence but it sure isn’t an important source of public ego gratification. Revalorizing and rewarding and praising women for their relationships with their children, for being good mothers, for breastfeeding and for caring for their children in unique ways seems like a damned good tradeoff when compared to the social and emotional rewards of low level paid work in this country.  Sure, high powered lawyers, writers, artists etc… love their jobs and may use the bottle and day care (the two go hand in hand btw) to enable themselves to continue to get social gratification and wealth from their outside the home jobs but that simply is irrellevant to the work lives of most lower class women.

aimai

Comment #17: aimai  on  03/18  at  02:20 PM

I’ve always been drawn to the idea of breastfeeding because I remember how much my mom liked it with my little sisters.  It was to the point where even my dad would excitedly point out a cow nursing from its mother if he saw one. 

On the other hand, I’m with Roisin in being skeptical that it makes much difference at all, medically.  It seems like a fantastic bonding experience, but you’re going to be snuggling your baby when you feed it with a bottle anyway.

Comment #18: saraeanderson  on  03/18  at  02:21 PM

What Caren said. 

Strangely, the first time I read the baby book my mom gave me, it seemed like it was advocating an all-or-nothing approach.  Rereading it after the new baby, I find no such thing.  The book suggests many strategies for combining breastfeeding and bottle feeding, and breastmilk and formula, to accomodate the needs and comfort of all moms and babies.  Exactly as it should be.  The only thing is that the studies showing minor benefits to extended breastfeeding compare exclusive breasfeeding with exclusive formula feeding.  I guess it makes sense to do that, but it leaves those of us in the middle without any data about our approach.

Comment #19: lonespark  on  03/18  at  02:27 PM

On the other hand, I’m with Roisin in being skeptical that it makes much difference at all, medically.

This is just nonsense. We know there’s a big difference because breastmilk has a huge number of elements in it that formula doesn’t and can change to reflect a baby’s needs in a way that formula never can.

I’m all about being skeptical whenever an element of parenting (well, mothering) is fetishized. But claiming there’s no difference is just silly.

Comment #20: kristin  on  03/18  at  02:29 PM

I see others, like Chingona, made my point more clearly than I did. I also wanted to add that its important to recognize that the breastfeeding wars belong properly not *merely* to feminist/patriarchy debates but squarely in the tradition of science v. nature and the “neutraceuticals” movement (described in several books on food and food fads) in which Americans, like ancient alchemists looking for the philosophers stone, are always looking for a way to transmute ordinary foods into superfoods, ordinary consumption moments into super medicalization events which will not only satisfy hunger but stave off death.

The reason so many amazing claims are made for breast milk over formula, or for formula over breastmilk, is because amazing claims are made for *every* food, at one point or another, from bee pollen to oat bran.  Americans are always looking for a silver bullet that will make them bigger, stronger, faster, healthier *than the other guy*. And therein, too, lies the power of the breastmilk/formula debate because mothers and children become proxies for health *and* class anxieties within an imagined and feared meritocractic society.  Upper class women have the luxury of following “the science” and their families have the luxury of trying to purchase or aquire “the best” to “give the baby” a leg up—healthwise, intellectually, or in any other way.  When people thought breast milk was bad, ineffective, left the baby hungry, caused the baby to become “too attached” to the mother or the mother “too attatched” to the baby, signaled low class attitudes about the body, etc…etc…etc… upper class women were discouraged from breastfeeding entirely.  Because the food given to the baby, and the manner of feeding it, were seen as key to raising the proper kind of classed and gendered child for that level of society. There is simply nothing new here. Its not some devious plot against upper class women, or against women who can’t breastfeed, or women with big boobs, or lower class women. Its just the bind that society places all individuals, male or female, if it costs more for them to perform the acts that are socially demanded of them than they can pay.  If breastmilk is “best” for the baby and lower class welfare mommies can freely breast feed while upper class women, for some reason, find they can’t you will very soon find upper class women buying the breast milk from lower class women (and that, of course, is what happened with wet nurses in the 15th and 16th centuries) and lower class babies starving to death.  If formula is “best” for babies and lower class women can’t afford it you will find them beggaring themselves to buy it trying to give their children every imaginary advantage. (And that isn’t even getting into the ways in which class itself constructs differences and forces fads in order to keep classes distinct and apart.)

aimai

Comment #21: aimai  on  03/18  at  02:33 PM

It still does amaze me how expensive formula is.  There is a reason why formula has a thriving black market.  Its one of the most stolen goods in most stores.

At my neighborhood grocery store, the formula is actually in a locked case with the liquor, and you have to get a manager with a key to get it for you.

Comment #22: chingona  on  03/18  at  02:35 PM

It’s really frustrating to me to see this stuff put into such black and white terms.  I’m a full-time dad.  My wife works full time.  She breastfeeds our baby when she’s home.  When she’s at work, she pumps her milk and refrigerates it to give to our daughter in a bottle the next day instead of formula.  For us it works really well.

There are health benefits to breastfeeding for both baby and mother, but as Amanda pointed out, these do tend to get exaggerated by some of the more enthusiastic proponents of the practice.  Nonetheless, we’ve decided to continue with it for at least the first year… the recommended length of time according to the American Academy of Pediatrics.  The World Health Organization recommends two.  Added to that, my wife points out studies that have shown a correlation between breastfeeding and a reduced risk of breast cancer (no causal link yet, just numerical statistics). 

I think Chingona hit the nail on the head, though.  Because my wife’s job is with the state and required to provide her with a clean, safe place to pump, we have that luxury.  Most people don’t.  That’s the biggest reason my wife has gotten more involved with la leche and other “lactivist” groups… not to push it on mothers as individuals, but to put pressure on society to make the choice more available to people who want it.  Currently, breastfeeding as a working mom is a luxury.  It should not be that way.

It’s time to turn the tables on the debate and make the focus be on demanding better societal support and opportunities for families—for healthcare, childcare, and parental leave.  After all, if more people really had the option to breastfeed without negative social or economic pressure, this wouldn’t be such a charged issue.  People who wanted to breastfeed their children wouldn’t feel the need to overstate the case for it simply to gain recognition for their right to do so; and for people who simply don’t have the time, inclination, or for some other reason can’t do it, there wouldn’t be the same degree of pressure.

Comment #23: jamie d  on  03/18  at  02:40 PM

Humans tend towards black and white thinking, so this sort of critique can cause massive problems as people turn “not as great as advertised” into “not good at all”.

Very true. I am fond of saying (about a variety of things) “just because it’s the best doesn’t mean it isn’t overrated.”  People usually think I’m speaking nonsense.

Comment #24: Cris  on  03/18  at  02:43 PM

Along with the pregancy tests? These were always locked items in the grocery stores I went to.

Comment #25: HooksInMyHead  on  03/18  at  02:45 PM

@jamie d.

just logged on to say you pretty much said what I was thinking by the time I got to the end of the article.  when people feel their own decisions are constrained by social and financial circumstances (on both sides!) they tend to push back and positions get polarized.  we, as a culture, pay lip service to women breast-feeding, but do not support parents and families so that women who choose to do so are able to in the context of their lived lives. 

I also wanted to say even in particular families it’s more complicated than an either/or choice.  I knew a woman with five kids who was active in la leche and breast fed her first four kids quite successfully.  her youngest, for whatever reason, didn’t do well with breast milk and so they switched to bottles.  It should be about what works best for parents and children in each individual circumstance.

Comment #26: annajcook  on  03/18  at  02:50 PM

I think a lot of women want to breastfeed.  I think it’s good to accomodate women who want to breastfeed.  But I think it’s easier to get things like employers and public places to accomodate women who want to nurse if we believe nursing is important.  Or, even better than important, if we believe it’s necessary.  I think there’s less of a burden to be accomodating if the perception is that it’s just an indulgence.  Wanting to breastfeed becomes no different than wanting to send your kids to private school - it means no one else has a particular burden to make it easier for you.

That doesn’t mean breastfeeding is necessary or important.  But if we convince ourselves that it isn’t, I think that will just make it harder for women who decide they want to breastfeed.

Comment #27: Wallace  on  03/18  at  02:53 PM

That’s the biggest reason my wife has gotten more involved with la leche and other “lactivist” groups… not to push it on mothers as individuals, but to put pressure on society to make the choice more available to people who want it.  Currently, breastfeeding as a working mom is a luxury.  It should not be that way.

YES THIS THANK YOU.

Comment #28: kristin  on  03/18  at  02:56 PM

The real issue is not whether women choose to breastfeed or not, but how we as individuals and as a society support women’s choices on this issue.  Breastfeeding doesn’t create inequalities in childrearing, and it doesn’t make women stop caring for themselves, but societal attitudes around it sure do.

There’s a piece by a post-partum doula up on the California NOW blog about this issue right now: http://www.canow.org/canoworg/2009/03/case-for-mothers-selfcare.html

Comment #29: tiggrrl  on  03/18  at  02:56 PM

well said, animai and caren.

I really think that this is one of those issues that shouldn’t divide feminists; that this is exactly the sort of thing that can be the cornerstone of a new, liberal interpretation of “family values”: that rather than imposing a standard of behavior on women, provide all mothers the tools, time and resources to make the best choice for their particular circumstances… whether that’s breast or bottle.

Comment #30: jamie d  on  03/18  at  02:59 PM

If breast feeding is over-rated, I suspect it is over-rated because it needs to be in order to force acceptance in a society that sees breasts-that-sell-cars as A-OK! and breasts-that-feed-infants as equivalent to taking a dump on the middle of the street.

When I have my first baby, I plan to militantly breast-feed in public, as necessary. But I say “plan” because I know that my then-husband, my father, and probably even my mother will be uncomfortable with the whole thing, and at least insist that I smother the baby with a towel or something so that OMG! no one sees a breast.

And that makes me angry. But, “I am breast feeding because I want to” is not an acceptable excuse and “I am breast feeding because it is healthier than formula” isn’t considered to have enough OOMPH to overcome the ick factor. But, “I am breast feeding because my baby will die if I don’t so Fuck Right Off You Baby-Hater”? That one, I believe, will do nicely.

Of course, it shouldn’t be that way. But this is another impossible situation for women - if you insists on your autonomy, you’re selfish, and if you insist that breast milk is best (which it is), then you get a stupid quibble about, “Oh, it may be best, but it’s still overrated” which is a pretty stupid retort because you haven’t really said anything at all except that you differ slightly on how high on the Importance Things scale it falls. Wee. Meanwhile, I get screamed at in Starbucks by a guy telling me that my breasts are only useful for making him horny? Gods help me, what a position.

Comment #31: Essie Elephant  on  03/18  at  03:03 PM

Breastfeeding is hard!!! You get your entire body adapted to that task and if the baby doesn’t nurse you feel really uncomfortable if not downright sick with plugged ducts or worse. Making a bottle of formula is quick and easy.

I breastfed my 3 kids for 1 year each and gotta say I did notice they don’t get sick as often as the other kids in their school.  But I had to endure lots of scorn from LLL fanatics because I couldn’t get my kids to nurse enough so I pumped. I was told that giving breast milk in a bottle ruined the whole purpose of breastfeeding and that the only “bonding” with my child that counted was the time he / she was breastfeeding. Holding and playing with my kids didn’t count, nor the “magic proteins” of my milk were any match for the actual physical act of nursing. Talk about myth!!!

Why does it make a difference ? Pumping makes the whole ordeal more predictable: you can do it every 2 hours or every 4 hours and you know how long it lasts. You can do it at work or before bed and delegate the actual feeding of the bottle to dad so you get some sleep. With a baby you can’t really predict if he/she will be sleepy/ hungry, etc… Bottom line: No pumping = no life for mom because she has to obey the schedule of an infant.

I do think this obsession with breastfeeding, coupled with “pumping doesn’t count” is a tool for others to pressure women into abandoning their interests and jobs to be available for raising kids as good wives do for their masters.

If the reason was nutrition only, why not promote pumping and let women make their own schedule ? Nope, making it easy for women to plan their day and to delegate childcare is not on the paternalistic society’s interest. It isn’t about the child’s health or the mom’s health.

Comment #32: Renmiri  on  03/18  at  03:13 PM

There is some scientific evidence that breastfeeding conveys some substantial health advantages to infants, but this primarily relates to the transfer of limited disease immunity and similar benefits during the first couple of weeks.  I admit that I really have not kept up with the scientific literature on the subject lately, but beyond that period the scientific evidence is somewhat mixed.  These benefits can generally be somewhat easily (owing to even limited maternity leave) conveyed and do not require exclusive breastfeeding.  If you do not live in the third world, or do and know to boil the water before using, there is no clear reason not to use formula as least as a supplement.  I agree with those above that this issue is just one more way to make women feel inadequate (also applies to fathers to some extent).  Important to recognize that not all women can physically nurse their children, as well as those who are socially constrained from doing so.  Women (and other caretakers - I was a single father for many years) should be encouraged to make the best choices available to them and not be constantly hit with these needless guilt trips.

Comment #33: DrDick  on  03/18  at  03:16 PM

Renmiri:
Whut?  Really?  How does pumping not count?

You have a really good point about pumping letting you keep your own schedule and be comfortable.  Why isn’t the baby always hungry when my boobs are full?  That would make life so much nicer.  Plus when you pump dad and grandma and everbody can feed the kid and you can get some much-needed time to yourself.

I bonded better with my son after I stopped breastfeeding him.  I loved cradling his head and looking into his eyes while giving him the bottle.  Nursing is hard work, young kids can’t do it themselves so you have to hold or support and aim their heads…not a particularly great bonding experience IMO, certainly not better than just holding/snuggling the baby.

Comment #34: lonespark  on  03/18  at  03:24 PM

I think breastfeeding is also a good example of the pressures women face when it comes to all other decisions about pregnancy and child-rearing. There’s lots and lots of stuff about how ‘breast is best’ and how breastmilk is healthier, which has led to ‘you’re a bad mother if you don’t nurse.’ BUT if for whatever reason you hate breastfeeding and doing so would be a strain on your mental health, no it is NOT healthier.

I’m generally one of those crunchy-granola type moms to be, and amongst that group there’s this HUGE backlash against ultrasounds or any technological advance for pregnancy. I have no idea why, I think it’s ridiculous, but it almost seems that people are trying to one up the next person by doing it most natural.

Now, I have a history of infertility and miscarriage, and accordingly I had a bunch of ultrasounds in the beginning to check that the embryo/fetus was alive and growing and in the right place. I’ve had women tell me that this is a bad idea, that they’d never do it, that I might be hurting my baby, but a) that’s bullshit, and b) it kept me sane, and a paranoid neurotic depressed and non-functional mom isn’t good for a growing embryo/fetus either. Hell, I hate the fact that people seem to think that I’m ‘brave’ for wanting a homebirth when it has nothing to do with that and everything to do with the fact that I’m terrified of doctors and their desire to slice up my genitals (current episiotomy rate is 1 in 5).

There’s this idea that the mother’s mental health, or even physical health (no painkillers during pregnancy?) don’t matter, and it sickens me. I’ve made a lot of choices that are typical for the hippy types, but not because I think they’re ‘better’ so much as better for me.

Comment #35: Ashley  on  03/18  at  03:25 PM

Announcer #1: And heeerrrre come the anecdotes!

Announcer #2: Hall of Famer Whitey Ford now on the field pleading with the crowd for… for some kind of sanity.

Announcer #1: Uh-oh, and a barrage of anecdotes now knocking Whitey unconscious.

Announcer #2: Wow.  This is uh…  This is a black day for breast milk.

Comment #36: norbizness  on  03/18  at  03:25 PM

tiggrl- thanks for that link- it was spot on, and said pretty much everything i wanted to only better.

Comment #37: jamie d  on  03/18  at  03:26 PM

Another side to the issue is the effect “breast is best” has on women who have children that will not breast feed or who cannot breast feed for other reasons.

Yes. This.

My ex-wife simply didn’t produce that much milk when our daughter was born. And she felt guilty about it. Never mind that she gave our daughter all the milk she had, plus all the love she could give her; the fact that the milk wasn’t enough made her feel like she’d failed in some essential way to be a mother.

I’m moderately pro-breastfeeding, for all the usual reasons. And I’m radically pro-making-accommodations-for-breastfeeders. But I think we need to soften up the rhetoric a bit, because the truth is that formula is not going to kill your child, any more than breast milk will turn them into a superbeing. Both have their advantages (formula is infinitely easier—and anyone who tells you different is lying. Formula can be egalitarian—dads and moms can take responsibility for feeding. But formula is more expensive—significantly more expensive. And formula is not going to be quite as good for a child as breast milk, no matter how well-formulated it is. And of course, this applies only in the first world, as developing countries’ formula sucks). But there are bottle-fed kids who grow up healthy, and breast-fed kids who grow up sick, and vice versa. Far more important than either is that children are treated with love and kindness by their caregivers.

Comment #38: Jeff Fecke  on  03/18  at  03:28 PM

Really norbiz? I think this discussion has been remarkably sane and reasoned, not nearly as flame-y as I had feared. In fact, so far, it’s not been flame-y at all, and I’d like to thank everyone for that.

Comment #39: chingona  on  03/18  at  03:30 PM

Humans tend towards black and white thinking, so this sort of critique can cause massive problems as people turn “not as great as advertised” into “not good at all”.

I agree.  One of the things that is often neglected in all of this is the variation in both breast milk and the child’s genetics.  When we read studies that show an improvement with breast milk, that’s usually an averaged statement.  Some mothers’ breast milk probably is very beneficial;  some kids’ immune systems and overall health are probably greatly enhanced by breast feeding.  For others, the milk might not be so important (or important at all);  likewise, for some kids, breast feeding might have a marginal or no effect.

Comment #40: Mike the Mad Biologist  on  03/18  at  03:32 PM

And of course, this applies only in the first world, as developing countries’ formula sucks.

Their formula actually is the same as our formula. The problem is a lot of women don’t have access to clean water or access to fuel to boil water to make it clean or access to money to buy enough formula, so they end up watering it down, resulting in the kid getting enough volume but not enough calories.

Comment #41: chingona  on  03/18  at  03:35 PM

Ashley- The one real link to potential problems with ultrasound comes from a couple of studies that show a link between high doses of ultrasound for extended periods in fetal rodents and developmental delay.  There haven’t been human trials yet due to the obvious safety/medical ethics concerns, but there is some evidence.  This should not outweigh your more immediate issue with your own medical history, of course, and I would have to agree with you that you absolutely did the right thing.  We went through something similar with early ultrasounds; we just tried to limit it to as small a number of sessions, for as short a duration as possible.  Getting the early thumbs-up via ultrasound gave my wife tremendous peace of mind, and subsequently we felt more justified in receiving fewer invasive medical interventions.

Kudos on the choice for natural birth, btw.  It may not be for every situation, but it sure was for us. Not going to a hospital was the best choice we could have made.

Comment #42: jamie d  on  03/18  at  03:44 PM

When it comes to 2 a.m. feedings a breastfeeding mother can roll over, pop the boob in the mouth and be done with it. A formula feeding mother has to get up, make a bottle, warm a bottle, bring it back up, and by this time the kid’s probably freaking out totally, making it harder to calm down and longer to get back to sleep.

This is true, but in your second scenario it doesn’t have to be the mother who gets up. Bottle-feeding does make equitable distribution of feeding responsibilities easier. Of course there’s always nighttime diaper changing for the “breastfeeding father”.

Comment #43: NoJoy  on  03/18  at  03:46 PM

chingona, don’t forget that they have to BUY the stuff ... and if they run out of money, they run out of food for their kids. They can literally be held for ransom once they’re marketed to, sold to, and dependent on formula.

Comment #44: kristin  on  03/18  at  03:47 PM

I said that.

Comment #45: chingona  on  03/18  at  03:50 PM

“Why does it make a difference?”

The only actual difference I know of between pumping and direct breastfeeding is that breastmilk is supposed to contain more water during the first part of a feeding, when an infant might be more dehydrated.  I don’t know that that would actually be a big enough thing to make any kind of difference, never mind a honoeseleventyone difference.

Comment #46: preying mantis  on  03/18  at  03:52 PM

Kristin’s point is very important:

Horror stories about women who “can’t” breastfeed or don’t make “enough” milk aside the fact of the matter is that if you let your milk dry up by going to formula right away you are hostage to the formula companies financially. That is no big deal in the US where, for many women, the financial cost of formula is balanced by other factors that make it financially attractive—such as the fact that it makes it easier for you to stay in the work force and earn money to pay for formula—. But it is a real problem in in third world countries, where, as others have noted, the sanitation facilities and water supply are not up to processing the formula safely in the first place. The real result of creating a dependency on formula is that it replaces a perfectly inexpensive and clean method of feeding young children with a risky and expensive one. And the end result when women run out of money is that they replace formula with lookalikes and traditional solid or semi solid local foods long before they would have weaned if left to their traditional methods.

aimai

Comment #47: aimai  on  03/18  at  03:54 PM

chingona, more or less true, but there’s the gray area where having less access to resources can also include less access to services/education, as well as expensive expensive formula, and so you get parents feeding babies canned condensed milk, reconstituted skim milk, homemade soy milk (I had trouble containing my YOU DID WHAT on that one, because,  tiny baby) etc. So sometimes the NGO literature seems to include all “bottle-fed” babies versus breast-fed babies, including babies who are being fed blatantly inappropriate breastmilk substitutes in those bottles, which probably makes the statistics even uglier. Also, while my experience has been that Nestle’s Nido is everywhere (and I used to make my oatmeal with it, because heck, I could use some b-vitamins) my experience only been in this hemisphere and north of Panama, so I wouldn’t be 100% stunned if there’re places that don’t regulate baby formula very well.

Comment #48: purpleshoes  on  03/18  at  03:56 PM

I’m new on this site so please forgive me first awkward post. I breastfed my kids and read the Salon article, which I didn’t think was too controversial really. Breastmilk isn’t the holy grail of infancy and yes, far too many women are made to feel badly if they don’t breastfeed. Fine. But what disturbed me about the article were not these observations. The underlying premise—women who can’t or don’t want to breastfeed are made to feel guilty, so here is research (which is probably quite good) to make you feel better.

This reminds me of the PC tempest of 80’s. Yes, some women in your consciousness raising group make you feel guilty about fill in the blank, but does that mean talking about race or heteronormativity is unnecessary? I mean breastmilk isn’t the holy grail, but it is marginally better. If you can you should, if you can’t, don’t. And if you simply don’t want to, don’t. And sure some high strung Molly is going to guilt you out, but she’ll guilt you out over a stroller or carseat too. I guess my concern is the point of departure for so many feminist polemics is a focus on ‘feelings of guilt’. Mothering is a guilt producing activity; let it go. But don’t deny facts, breastmilk is marginally better.

Comment #49: babeuf  on  03/18  at  03:59 PM

Whyever would we want to try to come to a consensus on the matter? With Breastfeeding both The Only Way a Loving Mother Should Even Conceptualize Of Feeding Her Baby and also Whipping Out Icky Yuppie Dirty Pillows At The Applebees we have the perfect way to criticize women no matter what their choice is.

Because that’s what’s important here.

Comment #50: Mighty Ponygirl  on  03/18  at  04:06 PM

For those who are interested in a critique of the evidence Rosin uses, U.S. Food Policy blog has a good post. The researchers from one of the studies Rosin uses weigh in in comments, too.

Comment #51: chingona  on  03/18  at  04:17 PM

“I’m generally one of those crunchy-granola type moms to be, and amongst that group there’s this HUGE backlash against ultrasounds or any technological advance for pregnancy. I have no idea why, I think it’s ridiculous, but it almost seems that people are trying to one up the next person by doing it most natural.”

The ultrasound thing has just enough medical questionability for doctors to advise against getting a just-for-fun ultrasound, which isn’t really an issue outside of those weird fetus-picture keepsake places, or a non-diagnostic ultrasound, like they do at crisis pregnancy centers.  I’ve never heard of any doctor advising against getting the de rigeur normal-pregnancy ultrasounds, never mind the high-risk stuff.

Comment #52: preying mantis  on  03/18  at  04:25 PM

Giving the newborn colostrum (first milk, enhanced by lots of maternal antibodies and so on) is good, but not essential. Yes, the breast milk can enhance an immature immune system by supplying pre-made antibodies, making the infant more resistant early on, but this really was more important in areas with contaminated water supplies, crowding and transmission of airborne infectious diseases, etc than in modern First World conditions. Plenty of kids never received breast milk, and survived just fine. So far as I am concerned, the breast feeding option ought to be available but shouldn’t be de rigeur.

Comment #53: NancyP  on  03/18  at  04:45 PM

The big difference most of the time between pumping and direct nursing is that breasts generally respond better to a baby than to a pump.

Most women make more milk when they nurse their baby directly, and most women continue to make milk proportionate to baby’s needs while they nurse directly. Women who pump, though, often have not only a lower initial yield but a faster dryup as their bodies respond less and less to the pump. It can be much, much harder maintaining a milk supply with a lot of pumping.

Comment #54: kristin  on  03/18  at  04:46 PM

In fact, so far, it’s not been flame-y at all, and I’d like to thank everyone for that.

I hate you so much, chingona.

Comment #55: Dolbia  on  03/18  at  04:48 PM

I need to point something out - talking about the “benefits” of breastfeeding normalises bottlefeeding and thus Others breastfeeding.  It makes it sound extra-special, super-dooper and therefore difficult and a sacrifice.  I have, in my 14 months breastfeeding my daughter, had some really really tough times with it and some really really amazing ones.  But I’m not a hero for doing it - I just had the support around me that many (most?) women do not.  It shouldn’t be seen as super special, and it wouldn’t be if society accepted it, which it doesn’t.

Comment #56: Katherine  on  03/18  at  04:48 PM

Plus, it seems to me like pumping is the worst of both worlds. You still have the time constraints of having the baby’s food coming directly out of your body, *and* you get to worry about sterility, refrigeration, and all the inconveniences associated with feeding a baby from bottles.

For these and other reasons I think what we need is not so much to fight for mothers’ rights to pump at work (although it’s a step in the right direction) as to eliminate the stupid “working vs mothering” dichotomy. Mothers should not have to give up a place in adult society, or a career, to care for babies, whether they’re breastfeeding or not.

Comment #57: kristin  on  03/18  at  04:49 PM

@ Ashley:  I’m fairly crunch-granola too, I had a totally unmedicated birth, etc., but I had a miscarriage, a lot of spotting early in my second pregnancy, and a very loosely connected placenta, so the ultrasound was very helpful to me. I was lucky enough to have a very active fetus, so my worries were minimal, but my mother-in-law (an ObGyn nurse) also gave me a doppler device so that on those couple of occasions where it had been a day of no movement, I could check for a heartbeat.  I didn’t feel badly about using it those times, even though I read all the anti-monitoring info, because it kept me sane during the worry and the flood of hormones.

I think I’ve been very lucky, in that I haven’t gotten grief from strangers during my breastfeeding, but I know a lot of women who have.  Maybe I just radiate, “Don’t mess with me,” vibes while breastfeeding.  I did consider getting a shirt made while I was pregnant that said, “Touch my stomach, and lose a hand.”

Comment #58: tiggrrl  on  03/18  at  04:53 PM

I think what Amanda is pointing out (motherhood perfectionism in the form of breastfeeding, etc. becoming popular as women gained more power) and what aimai is pointing out (breastfeeding as an act of rebellion, driven by women as much as “the culture”) are both true. The current situation, where women both desire to breastfeed and find it nearly impossible to do so if they work, is a confluence of these two forces—not a contradiction.  Regressive types undoubtedly use the fashion for breastfeeding as a tool, but it was still feminists who actually brought it back into common use in the 60s and 70s, as an empowering act.

Right now, what we have to do is to make access to healthy child-rearing activities, like working part-time, breastfeeding, and decent parental leave, part of our laws and everyone’s work life; women are being torn in two by the strain of trying to raise their children in healthy ways and still have a work life that they need. This is unnecessary; we could certainly build a society that made parenting and mothering fit smoothly in with other activities for both parents, instead of making it a choice between work and parenting.

What I dislike about a lot of breastfeeding discussion in baby books and online is how little consideration is given to the problems of working moms (though this gets better). No one wants to discuss how many moms put there babies in daycare at 6 weeks because they have no better options.

What I dislike about this article is that it’s too much the other way; our enemy is not, in the long run, crazy LaLeche activists who scold us; it’s a system that restricts our choices and our lives in cruel and harmful ways.

Comment #59: emjaybee  on  03/18  at  04:58 PM

  It shouldn’t be seen as super special, and it wouldn’t be if society accepted it, which it doesn’t.

Damn, now I’m serial-commenting. Sorry.

Thank you for saying this, Katherine, because I have a problem with seeing the subject framed in a way that implies women are being “pushed to breastfeed” and that this is a problem we contribute to by encouraging women to breastfeed and educating people about it.

My experience is that breastfeeding is not at all substantively accepted or encouraged, much less pushed. A lot of hospital birth policy is hostile to establishing a breastfeeding relationship. Mothers are given goodie packs from formula companies when they check out of the hospital. Most doctors *should* know that breastfeeding is a good thing to do, but they’d rather not take the time to actually support it by giving their patients accurate information. Most of the advice I’ve seen given to women with trouble breastfeeding is “Oh well, time to switch to formula then”.

Most places in the US don’t explicitly protect the right to breastfeed in public. We live in a patriarchy that demeans women for using their breasts to nourish other human beings and tells women that breastfeeding will make their breasts sag and reduce their appeal.

Most prescription drugs are marked as mot for breastfeeding women when they don’t actually appear in milk at all, or it hasn’t been tested how much they appear in milk. Formula companies make huge amounts of money off of women who don’t breastfeed, and can pour that money into advertising and lobbying. Money for breastfeeding advocacy comes out of shallow public coffers or private donations.

Women with jobs, of course, are very lucky if they can so much as pump breastmilk. Low income? You’re screwed. In a lot of places you can be denied welfare if you insist on staying home with your tiny baby to breastfeed. Stay at home but have other kids? You’re in for a hard slog, because unless you have private family support, there’s no help for you to parent your other kids and breastfeed your new baby.

You know that saying “I’ll be a post-feminist in the post-patriarchy”? Well, I’ll accept that women are being guilted into breastfeeding and we have to be careful not to contribute to that—the day we live in a society when the majority of women understand the facts about their breasts, and women who choose to breastfeed are really completely supported. Until then, advocacy for breastfeeding works to address an unbalanced situation.

Claiming that the choice to use formula is somehow in danger or somehow oppressed is like claiming that there’s a war on Christianity or that Affirmative Action is racism against whites.

Comment #60: kristin  on  03/18  at  05:04 PM

Or, you know, what emjaybee said in a much less confrontational way than I ultimately did.

Comment #61: kristin  on  03/18  at  05:05 PM

In fact, so far, it’s not been flame-y at all, and I’d like to thank everyone for that.

I hate you so much, chingona.

@ pepito ... Did I actually offend you?

Comment #62: chingona  on  03/18  at  05:23 PM

2) Class issues. Reading some of the comments from working class women who breastfed and pumped at their jobs, I think we need to be careful what policy conclusions we draw from the class issues here. Absolutely, the difficulty of pumping at many of the types of jobs lower income women work at should not be used as a bludgeon to accuse poorer women of being worse mothers. But some poorer women prefer to breastfeed, and we shouldn’t stop pressing for more accommodations in the workplace because some middle class women feel like they’re under too much pressure to breastfeed.

Women who simply don’t want to breastfeed or who find themselves unable to breastfeed should grab the formula and not look back. But if we go too far in casting this as a purely individual decision, incentives to provide accommodations wither away and women actually end up with no real “choice” in the matter. That’s the situation many poor women and even middle-class women find themselves in right now, and I don’t think there’s anything feminist about enabling that status quo.

Just skimmed the Rosin article, and that’s teh first thing we should notice here: her experience is strictly with upper, upper class moms. 

Totally different story in other cultures and classes.
Both WIC and hospitals push the formula route with free samples, etc.(which is why the “ask a pedatrician if f-ing ridiculous).  My (male) ped knows diddly squat @ BC.
Breastfeeding in the Hispanic and African American cultures is still not considered an option because of body stereotypes and male prejudice.  (African American women often say breastfeeding seems too “primitive” which is why they avoid it, and Hispanic women fear loss of breast shape which “the man” would not like. 

Rosin also could use a goddamn big mirror - poor planning on her part shouldn’t lead to the curtailment of a successful health push on ours.  Who decided to launch said website at the same time as having a baby? Choosing to have three kids?  well shit sweetie, haven’t you ever heard the old baby/sports analogy - one kid, parents doubleteam it, two kids, man on man defense, three kids and you’re forced to play zone.

So, yeah, I’m a hardcore breastfeeding advocate - formula should be via prescription only.

Comment #63: phylosopher  on  03/18  at  05:27 PM

tiggrrl- I also seem to radiate a “don’t mess with me” vibe. Nobody ever touched my belly with either pregnancy that I carried to term. My husband used to work with a woman who was constantly pawed while pregnant. One day she was complaining about it to him; he said, “Really? My wife would’ve ripped people’s hands off if they tried to touch her!” He was quite proud.

Comment #64: Burning Prairie  on  03/18  at  05:27 PM

I loved this post, Amanda, but I wish you had spent even more energy on the political and social-control-of-women angle and less on the health angle. Breast milk really is light-years ahead of formula, and ideally our culture would make it possible for as many women as possible to breast-feed (i.e., specific supports in place at every level). That said, I bottle-fed because I became seriously ill from complications of childbirth and the standard treatments, which would have allowed me to nurse, didn’t work. This was not a situation I wished to explain to everyone I met, so I endured the covert and overt judgments of other moms. Yes, my situation was cut-and-dried and I shouldn’t have felt guilty, but I did. And so did several of my friends who had their own issues with unsuccessful breast-feeding, often after weeks of being hooked up to nipple shields and drip feeders and pumps every waking moment.

By definition, the folks who’ve responded to this post with some variation of, “Well, I breast-fed and I managed to overcome the obstacles” are *successful* breast-feeders. It is easy, in that situation, to assess other women’s failures as a lack of gumption or endurance. And that, my friends, is where deeply internalized patriarchal oppression is made manifest—in the moment when one mother focuses on another’s morality instead of on the cultural, economic, social, and familial factors that oppress us all in various ways. A woman That is the real point of Amanda’s post, as I understand it: even if it were the case that breastmilk enabled babies to fly while formula caused their limbs to fall off, the health issues are separate from the issues of patriarchal oppression and the way women—even feminists—internalize it and turn it against each other.

Sweden has a 95% breast-feeding rate. So, either Swedish mothers are inherently more selfless and hard-working, or Swedish medical and popular culture has evolved to the point where nearly every mother gets the support she needs to succeed. It takes a village to raise a child—and in America, that village can be mighty small, depending on who you are.

Comment #65: Froggy  on  03/18  at  05:31 PM

There is always a backlash when the economy is bad. If unemployment weren’t sky high, you wouldn’t see so many articles urging women back into the nursery or kitchen. A sign of the times.

Comment #66: DC Fem  on  03/18  at  05:34 PM

Did I actually offend you?

No, I was just feeling silly today and didn’t really have anything to contribute to the thread.

Comment #67: Dolbia  on  03/18  at  05:35 PM

Okay, good. I thought you were joking, but then I worried I was like the “mom” of this thread. “I really like it when you play nice.” It’s just that normally, I hate talking about breastfeeding on the Internet, and not only is this a pretty good discussion, my blood pressure is staying nice and even.

Comment #68: chingona  on  03/18  at  05:38 PM

So yeah, I get really pissy when people declare that the fact that I was bottle fed makes me an emotionally stunted, stupid, sickly spawn of a complete failure of a mother.

But did it turn you into a gamer?

Comment #69: Cris  on  03/18  at  05:40 PM

phylosopher: That does not square with my experience working with Hispanic families at all; I suspect it depends on who we’re talking about. Like most things. I have not done any kind of public health work in areas with high African-American populations, so I can’t speak to that.

Comment #70: purpleshoes  on  03/18  at  05:41 PM

I’m generally one of those crunchy-granola type moms to be

This phrase reminded me of the daughter of one of my mom’s friends. I don’t know whether she breastfed or not (I would guess she at least tried to) but she *does* spend about 2 hours each day after work hand-mashing organic beets/etc for her toddler to eat. (Just thinking about that makes me die a little inside… kid had better win about 12 Nobel prizes and live 200 years for all that work. 9.9)

Comment #71: Bagelsan  on  03/18  at  05:45 PM

bagelsan, they do make crank food grinders - my mother had one, she just mushed whatever dinner was up. Asparagus? Sure! Pizza? Why not! She said there was no point in making two meals when I was just going to wind up eating what everybody else ate eventually.

Comment #72: purpleshoes  on  03/18  at  05:48 PM

Complex topic - thanks for raising it.

The thing I don’t understand is the implication that breastfeeding is incompatible with going back to work.  Sure, it’d be tough for the first month or so to breastfeed and work (everything is tough in the first month or two after childbirth!).  But after that, at least for me, breastfeeding and work can go together just fine.

It was 27 years ago that I had my baby, and I was fortunate to be able to have two months off work - during which time we slowly got used to breastfeeding.  Back at work, I was able to pump once a day, which was a nuisance and I did that for one month.  After that, I breastfed when I was with the child, and the child-care provider fed her formula during the day.  On weekends the baby mgiht’ve been a bit hungry since my breasts weren’t used to daytime feedings.  On Mondays I was a bit leaky since my breasts tried to adjust to having daytime feedings.  But there were no big problems.  Of course the baby started eating other foods too eventually and stopped formula by age 1.  We breastfed until age 18 months.  The story with my second child was the same.

Was I just lucky to have an adaptable body and adaptable babies?  We aren’t particularly adaptable in any other ways.  So I think working and breastfeeding could well be possible for other mothers, if they knew to give it a try.

I agree that every woman should make her own choices about feeding her baby.  Breastfeeding has some advantages (a few health benefits in the first couple months, way less expensive, more convenient while traveling, and after a couple months it is easy).  But it isn’t a magic way to make a “super-child”.

Comment #73: Math-Teacher  on  03/18  at  05:53 PM

no, it’s because I’m a gamer that I’m an emotionally stunted, stupid, sickly spawn of a complete failure of a mother. Breastfeeding had nothing to do with it. It was the Atari 2600 I played when I was 3.

Comment #74: Mighty Ponygirl  on  03/18  at  05:53 PM

I didn’t even find pumping regularly to really add to the “burden” of breastfeeding—I pumped 2 or 3 times during a workday, for 15 minutes, and that generally resulted in about 20oz. The kid topped out at drinking about 16oz a day, so by the end of the time he was taking bottles at daycare, I was a deep-freeze full ahead of him.

But, I also have the white collar job where nobody blinked at me disappearing for 15 minutes at 10am, at 1pm, and at 4pm.  I generally took materials with me that I needed to work on, so it wasn’t even really a “break”, but more a private 15 minutes to work.

Comment #75: hp  on  03/18  at  05:54 PM

“Most places in the US don’t explicitly protect the right to breastfeed in public. We live in a patriarchy that demeans women for using their breasts to nourish other human beings and tells women that breastfeeding will make their breasts sag and reduce their appeal”

Yes, they do.  http://www.ncsl.org/programs/health/breast50.htm

“My experience is that breastfeeding is not at all substantively accepted or encouraged, much less pushed. A lot of hospital birth policy is hostile to establishing a breastfeeding relationship. Mothers are given goodie packs from formula companies when they check out of the hospital. Most doctors *should* know that breastfeeding is a good thing to do, but they’d rather not take the time to actually support it by giving their patients accurate information. Most of the advice I’ve seen given to women with trouble breastfeeding is “Oh well, time to switch to formula then”.

Yep, and yep and yep.  And since we are no longer an agrarian society, most mothers don’t realize (and it isn’t explained) that using the formula starts a vicious circle.  And pedes are so afraid of being sued that they don’t often bother to look at the baby or mom,  they just issue the standard, “have to worry about dehydration, give it formula”  CYA.

Rosin’s class is indeed even more responsible - like it or not, they are the “leaders of what’s acceptable.”  Perhaps her fellow mothers see this.  Americans especially look to the class to which they aspire for their social cues.  THerefore,  upperclass women are also role models.  In addition, it is the power wielded by those classes that was instrumental in bringing public breastfeeding out of the restroom.  If they quit, poorer women who may better benefit financially from breastfeeding may lose whatever public acceptance has been gained.

Comment #76: phylosopher  on  03/18  at  05:58 PM

My wife is an active member of LLL, my mother was a member, and I’ve met one of the founders. As far as I can tell they are hardly the vicious, guilt-mongering harridans Roslin portrays them as. My feeling after I read her article is that she had identified the problem (the cult of perfect motherhood) but not the source.
As far as fetishizing motherhood, the simple fact is that motherhood in particular and parenthood in general is subject to one ultra-long guilt trip. Society as essentially no problem scolding the crap out of parents (especially I will point out again mothers) and unlike say against the diet or smoking police, there is little push-back.
Yes breast-feeding is a HUGE pain in the ass especially with regard to work and in public places. And biologically, it will fall on mothers. But it is not the source of mothering woes. The source is the push for perfect children, competitive parenting, and a society intolerant of parenting mistakes.
As far as my personal (male) experience with co-parenting, as long as my wife was breast-feeding our son, I was responsible for the diapers, cooking, and washing up. We alternated most other chores and decided before he was born to arrange for time-off for both of us.
Her article ultimately reminded as nothing so much as an article twenty some years ago in The Atlantic on the “cholesterol myth.” Essentially the author (who I can remember) did the same thing, complained that the research was overblown, too much effort was being put into a public health campaign with little tangible benefit, etc. Twenty years later peer-reviewed science still recommends the supposedly marginal gains of low cholesterol. I know, it’s more refined than in 1989, but still the basic principle is a lot closer to the conventional wisdom then than the article. I suspect Roslin’s critique will fall into the same category.

Comment #77: histro-geek  on  03/18  at  05:59 PM

It’s been a few years, but the program I worked for was a homevisit food and nutrition one.  The hispanic women were generally urban, young, as a rule first generation, not immigrant.  I think that makes a difference.

Comment #78: phylosopher  on  03/18  at  06:02 PM

Above was to purpleshoes.

And I’m with you - two hours to make babyfood?  Only if I were doing a whole bunch to freeze or something.  After a while, a fork worked just as well.

Comment #79: phylosopher  on  03/18  at  06:05 PM

“it’s fascinating that breast-feeding has magically managed to recreate oppressive structures”

Everything recreates oppressive structures.  The trick is to de-oppress things as much as possible with education and legislation, etc., as you’ve suggested.

Comment #80: News Nag  on  03/18  at  06:06 PM

Yeah, it’s pretty difficult to have this type of article hit the newsstands for breastfed babies:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/22/world/asia/22china.html

Comment #81: phylosopher  on  03/18  at  06:10 PM

All right, I haven’t got all day so I haven’t read most of the comments here.

1. Great post, Amanda, especially considering you’re not a mom yourself.

2. I intended to nurse my son for about 18 months, but then we had four or five separate complications/issues and there’s no Womanly Art of Breastfeeding chapter called “What To Do When You Are Pretty Well Fucked.” Pumping, trying to nurse, and supplementing with formula all at the same time? Bad plan. It was exhausting and had me wondering if I was experiencing postpartum depression because I was so miserable. Luckily (!), I needed an overnight hospital stay for a medical test and didn’t pump enough, so the pitiable milk supply became even more ridiculously limited. Little choice but to give up then—and what do you know? The PPD feelings lifted once I ditched the pump. Feeling like a failure as a woman took months longer to get over, of course.

I could have done without random comments from strangers in public about bottle-feeding, I tell you. I busted my ass trying to breastfeed and felt like a shitty excuse for a woman when it didn’t work. That is the result of the middle-class+ societal pressure of “breast is best.” So I appreciated Rosin’s essay.

3. My sister was breastfed for over a year. My mom was still nursing and really skinny when she got pregnant with me. She quit nursing me by 4(ish) months in order to go on the Pill, and she believes (wrongly!) that she gave me a crappy, undernourished intrauterine environment (so she blames herself for anything that has ever gone wrong in my body). And yet! My IQ is 10 or 20 points higher than my sister’s. If only she had nursed me longer—I would probably be a mathematician. And instead, I muddle through as a Mensa-level writer and editor who is happy with life. It’s the formula. It keeps me simple-minded and content.

4. The reason that European countries have such lovely maternity leave and childcare policies is that the governments are trying to goose the birth rate. If the U.S. had the same policies, would our birth rate shoot up even higher than it already is? If so, that would mean a larger U.S. population consuming far more than our share of the world’s resources. I like the idea of better parenting benefits (especially childcare), but a higher birth rate is the last thing we need here.

5. My son and I were on separate hospital floors for his first five days. Then for the next five weeks, I slept at home and he stayed in the NICU. And then breastfeeding latch-on just didn’t work, and my supply was lousy, and I gave up trying after two months. “ZOMG! How could they ever get bonded??” We bonded just fine. The kid is 8 now, and he’s super-close to both parents yet independent and confident—always has been. Breastfeeding isn’t at all a requirement for bonding. (The argument that it is, of course, is also a big “fuck you” to every adoptive mother, to every father, to every non-gestational parent, as well as to everyone who couldn’t or wouldn’t breastfeed.)

Comment #82: Orange  on  03/18  at  06:12 PM

I do think this obsession with breastfeeding, coupled with “pumping doesn’t count” is a tool for others to pressure women into abandoning their interests and jobs to be available for raising kids as good wives do for their masters.

I would guess that, as with any human activity, we interpret breastfeeding through our own beliefs, values, and lifestyles.  Women who see it as their duty to be a brood mare and house slave are going to proselytize about that regardless of what they use as a vector.

Comment #83: The Opoponax  on  03/18  at  06:15 PM

The food processor/grinder option is pretty cool. I remember devices marketed for the specific purpose of grinding baby food being big in the 70’s and then making a recent resurgence, but perhaps I am not remembering correctly. Having a baked sweet potato in the fridge to use as an addition is a trick I learned from a friend, it got her kids eating every time.


phylosopher: Were you responding to the Rosin article as being potentially influential in the decision to not breastfeed or to specific posts in this thread?

Comment #84: HooksInMyHead  on  03/18  at  06:18 PM

What I always find ironic about all the discussion about how oppressive breastfeeding is, is that the breastfeeding statistics in the US are so poor, that it’s really more a discussion of the “maybe”.

The US is a country where the majority of infants receive formula as their primary milk source when factored over the entire first year of life. At 3 months, 58% of infants are exclusively on formula versus breastmilk, at 6 months, 78% of infants are exclusively on formula (CDC stats 2008). And at each point, about half of the remaining percentage is doing some sort of combo feeding which probably involves some formula.

Comment #85: hp  on  03/18  at  06:19 PM

two hours to make babyfood?  Only if I were doing a whole bunch to freeze or something

I would spend about an hour, once a week, usually a Sunday, making food for the week ahead. Boil, blend, pour into ice cube trays. Certainly, I don’t think someone is a bad parent if they prefer to buy prepared baby food, but it was cheaper and really not very much work to make our own.

Comment #86: chingona  on  03/18  at  06:21 PM

Wait, I screwed those stats up. Problem with a chart that changes time factors on you when looking at different aspects of the same concept . . . and just glancing at it.

At 3 months, 69% of infants are receiving formula OR formula and breastmilk, (or maybe breastmilk and some type of alternate food source like cereal). The exclusively breastfed rate is not explicitly called out.
At 6 months, 58% of infants are receiving formula as their primary milk source. 78% are receiving some type of combination.

Comment #87: hp  on  03/18  at  06:29 PM

I have a master’s degree in public health nursing and have witnessed firsthand the “breast is best” endless mantra.  I think this came from a time when breastfeeding was not nearly as popular as it is now, and they were trying to “sell” it. It is time to have more honest and nuanced discussion about it (it may hurt like hell the first two week-you may get infections-it could be every hour instead of every 3-4….etc..)  However, it’s probably also time to be more honest about the fact that being childless is a completely a valid choice for a lifespan.  I think the mommy wars are a HUGE distraction from the fact that my generations’ (thirty-somethings)  so-called feminist men still can’t seem get off their asses to help.  I really feel like breastfeeding might not seem like such a drain if partners stepped up to the plate to fill in doing the housework, shopping etc….
and of course if you can’t breastfeed for some reason (have to work 12 hr shift and are a single parent etc..) and someone makes you feel bad about it that person is an asshole not worth thinking about.

Comment #88: martha  on  03/18  at  06:33 PM

Breastfeeding isn’t at all a requirement for bonding. (The argument that it is, of course, is also a big “fuck you” to every adoptive mother, to every father, to every non-gestational parent, as well as to everyone who couldn’t or wouldn’t breastfeed.)

Orange took the words out of my brain there.  Bonding is important.  Vitally so.  Attachment is so necessary to future development.  The details of how bonding/attachment is accomplished don’t matter.

Comment #89: lonespark  on  03/18  at  06:34 PM

“I think this came from a time when breastfeeding was not nearly as popular as it is now, and they were trying to “sell” it. “

I think it’s like natural childbirth especially LaMaze. It comes from the 1950s and 1960s “women are stupid and icky” notions of child-rearing and the subsequent reaction against it in 1970s. I remember our child-birthing class when they felt compelled to explain about the all-doctor child-birthing from the 1940s to the early 1970s. I felt like reminding them that only the older parents were even born during that time. The bigger issue they had to deal with was the expectation that the class would be an epic guilt trip on the evils of pain-killers (it wasn’t, but that was my anxiety).

“I really feel like breastfeeding might not seem like such a drain if partners stepped up to the plate to fill in doing the housework, shopping etc…. “

Well, that’s true in any case. As I mentioned further up, it helped us to set up some division of labor. Including our favorite, “Mom is responsible for putting food in. Dad is responsible for when it comes out.”

Comment #90: histro-geek  on  03/18  at  06:57 PM

phylosopher: Were you responding to the Rosin article as being potentially influential in the decision to not breastfeed or to specific posts in this thread?
HooksInMyHead on 03/18 at 04:18 PM

Mainly to the Rosin article in which she describes the group/type of moms she tried her little experiment on.  My point was what some have dubbed “the martha effect.”  Why Martha Stewart was so influential on the lifestyle mindset of many, even though her actual lifestyle (martha gardening for real: Jose, dig the whole for that bougnavillea another foot to the left” is probably not within the realm of possibility for most people who mimicked her to obtain.

Comment #91: phylosopher  on  03/18  at  06:58 PM

and of course if you can’t breastfeed for some reason (have to work 12 hr shift and are a single parent etc..) and someone makes you feel bad about it that person is an asshole not worth thinking about.
alisa on 03/18 at 04:33 PM

If you are a single parent working a twelve hour shift often, then maybe you should have thought realistically the demands of parenting before procreating? is my personal response.

But, on a pragmatic level, I think it was in the FDC responses, why not bring back the wet nurse or group mothering?Honestly, with modern nutrition, there are a ton of women who can probably feed Octomom’s brood singlehandedly- I love what Cat Cora and her wife are doing as one example - my bet is they may do a bit of shared feeding.

Comment #92: phylosopher  on  03/18  at  07:05 PM

“I have a master’s degree in public health nursing and have witnessed firsthand the “breast is best” endless mantra.  I think this came from a time when breastfeeding was not nearly as popular as it is now, and they were trying to “sell” it. It is time to have more honest and nuanced discussion about it (it may hurt like hell the first two week-you may get infections-it could be every hour instead of every 3-4….etc..)”

And perhaps we can include some traditional, low tech methods of fixing said problems? Which should be common knowledge among nursing moms:
a) Lansinoh
b) cabbage leaves as a topical to relieve blocked ducts
c) a glass of beer to increase milk production?

Comment #93: phylosopher  on  03/18  at  07:08 PM

Orange took the words out of my brain there.  Bonding is important.  Vitally so.  Attachment is so necessary to future development.  The details of how bonding/attachment is accomplished don’t matter.
lonespark on 03/18 at 04:34 PM

But breastfeeding forces one to take the time to bond.  And that is it’s advantage in a busier is better society.  It should also force corporations to make the time for such bonding with reasonable leaves.  Formula (and the ubiquitous, guilt-free “option” of formula and/or bottle feeding circumvents the requirement- propping baby bottle, not relaxing enough to spend time with the baby, etc.

Comment #94: phylosopher  on  03/18  at  07:11 PM

wow phylosopher it seems that if anyone has has any experience that contradicts your idealizations about breast feeding you simply wave your hand away as if it is easily solvable.

Comment #95: kitten parade  on  03/18  at  07:20 PM

Obviously, guilting individual moms about their choices is wrong. It’s hurtful and it doesn’t yield any benefits. Pressure needs to be applied at a level above the individual mom—the parenting-leave policies, the hospital policies, the welfare policies, the work policies, the laws about public breastfeeding, the societal views of women’s breasts. This is what lactivists and groups like LLL need to be doing (and a lot of the time, they are, especially if you remember that educating a larger population about the facts of breasts and breastfeeding is applying pressure to a large structure.)

I mean look at Orange’s example. She was forced to be away from her newborn when really, if you think about it, there’s not only no reason why it should have to happen but also no good reason why separating a parent from a newborn (let alone a sick newborn) should be at all excusable. And one result of that is that her plans to breastfeed her baby were literally sabotaged. Who bore the guilt over having “failed as a woman”? Orange! Not cool at all.

Just another example of how the patriatchal structures leave individual women holding the bag for not succeeding at whatever game it is, when the deck was stacked against them the whole time.

Comment #96: kristin  on  03/18  at  07:22 PM

phylosopher: Thanks very much for the reply, that clarifies it for me.

Comment #97: HooksInMyHead  on  03/18  at  07:22 PM

Oh, and phylosopher? check your privileged and condescending tude there mmmmkay? Women are not flitting, stupid little creatures who simply forget to bond with their babies because no parenting structure is there “forcing” them to do it. What a disgusting and offensive idea.

Comment #98: kristin  on  03/18  at  07:24 PM

Rosin also could use a goddamn big mirror - poor planning on her part shouldn’t lead to the curtailment of a successful health push on ours.  Who decided to launch said website at the same time as having a baby?

Wow, so she’s a bad mother and/or a “poor planner” if she wants to do anything at all with her life in addition to being a mom?  Even having a website is wrong if it might get in the way of breastfeeding?  That’s exactly the sort of attitude that makes me balk at ever having children and pretty convinced that I don’t want to breastfeed.

I admit the breast wars rile me up partly because I was bottle-fed.  My mom just didn’t feel like breastfeeding.  The only explanation she ever gave was, “I can think of better things to do with my breasts.”  She of course loved pointing out to all her friends who lectured her on the subject that her children were taller and smarter than theirs and had no allergies.  There should be a national holiday dedicated to my mother.  It will be called The Day Women Don’t Put Up With Shit.

I know I shouldn’t be surprised by our society’s ability and eagerness to guilt-trip women over every damn thing, but breastfeeding just seems to keep getting more absurdly polarized.  One of my friends was wracked with guilt when she didn’t produce enough milk to feed her twins and had to—gasp!—supplement with formula.  She had run herself ragged trying to give her children every developmental advantage, and she believed everyone who told her that she’d be destroying them for life if they got anything other than breast milk.  Now that the kids are healthy toddlers, I think she’s relaxed a little and realized that she doesn’t have to be the 100% perfect mother of 100% perfect children.  But it angers me when people pile on moms over every damn choice they make.

Comment #99: Shaenon  on  03/18  at  07:41 PM

Also I think stronger parental leave policies should be built on the already existing model incorporated in FMLA, where numerous weeks of leave are justified based on recovery from childbirth and/or care for a newborn.  Dragging breastfeeding into it complicates things for everybody but nursing moms.

Comment #100: lonespark  on  03/18  at  07:42 PM

If you are a single parent working a twelve hour shift often, then maybe you should have thought realistically the demands of parenting before procreating?

phylosopher, I have agreed and disagreed with you on various points, but this I am going to go ahead and call stupid. Very few people plan to be single mothers; the “single mothers by choice” who I know (not to generalize, but -) usually have either staff or extended families to support them, but I know a hell of a lot more poor, working-class “single mothers by accident”. No one knows how a relationship is going to end when they get into it; we are all guilty of unreasonable optimism on that front. Presuming that everyone should have had an abortion or placed an infant with an adoption agency if they wanted to have a child but are working class and got dumped mid-pregnancy, or got knocked up outside a relationship and did not personally opt (or was not able) to use those choices, is pretty damn insupportable from any sort of perspective that think women should have basic rights over their own bodies and decisions.

Comment #101: purpleshoes  on  03/18  at  07:54 PM

If you are a single parent working a twelve hour shift often, then maybe you should have thought realistically the demands of parenting before procreating? is my personal response.

Yeah, because SO MANY WOMEN *decide* to get pregnant while they are without a partner in their lives and working a 12-hour shift.

You know, when I imagine a single mom working a twelve hour shift, I imagine someone who was abandoned by the man she loved when she was too far pregnant to get an abortion, or after the baby was born, and the job with the 12 hour shift was what she could get, now that she had to support herself and the baby on one person’s income when she’d probably expected to live on two incomes. Does anyone *seriously* think that women who currently have no long-term partner in their lives are the ones who get pregnant? Really? Who, exactly, fucks a man who isn’t expected to be around long-term and doesn’t use birth control? The religious wackjobs who are against birth control mostly are all also against casual sex, so anyone a religious wackjob woman has sex with is someone she has at least convinced *herself* will be around forever.

Maybe there’s a small handful of women whose protection failed them and who couldn’t afford, couldn’t access or didn’t want an abortion, and maybe an even smaller handful of women who were shortsighted enough not to be using protection, and an even tinier subset of women who got pregnant from rape and didn’t get an abortion. (And an even tinier subset than that who have enough support from family or friends that they decided to get pregnant while not partnered, by choice.) But the vast majority of women who are single and pregnant, or single and have babies, are women who thought there was a man in their lives who would help them out with the kid at the point that they *got* pregnant, and it didn’t work out that way. Maybe he left. Maybe he turned out to be abusive, and *she* left. Maybe he died. Why the fuck are you making judgements about other people’s fitness to be a mother on the basis of their current financial situation now that they have a little baby anyway, in a world where a person could be pulling down a 6 figure job this week and next week be out on the street shopping a resume around? Newsflash: pregnancy takes nine months, and things can change in that time, a lot.

Comment #102: Alara J Rogers  on  03/18  at  08:06 PM

phylospher’s stance also seems to assume that if you can’t or don’t want to breastfeed, you shouldn’t have kids, which is both offensive and ridiculous.

I am a big fan of breastfeeding, and I found a lot of aspects of the Rosin article really annoying. I’ve explained what I see as the structural issues that feminists should focus on.

But the idea that if you can’t meet some magic standard, you should just get an abortion, and if you don’t plan everything perfectly, you lose any right to complain, is seriously fucked up.

And while it would be good if more people had practical advice on how to make breastfeeding work,  your solutions - just drink a beer if you have low supply! - are seriously insulting to people who really did try everything.

And at the end of the day, if someone just doesn’t want to breastfeed, that’s their right and not my business.

Comment #103: chingona  on  03/18  at  08:19 PM

Oh, and phylosopher? check your privileged and condescending tude there mmmmkay? Women are not flitting, stupid little creatures who simply forget to bond with their babies because no parenting structure is there “forcing” them to do it. What a disgusting and offensive idea.

kristin on 03/18 at 05:24 PM

Privileged and condescending?  If you only knew. 

Did you actually read my post Kristin?  Busier is better is a societal norm. One that a lot of us have internalized - look how we fetishize multitasking (a truly mythological concept, Btw).  Bottlefeeding can quickly lead many a harried mom to the prop the bottle so that they can go do….whatever else of themyriad things a mom has to do, whether that’s folding laundry or building a website, .... the mom is guilt-tripped into bottle propping- especially as the baby gets older.  Partner or others may even explicitly encourage it. 

So, nothing there about flitting, it’s about guilting and pressure, first to bottlefeed and then to the quick slope to prop and feed- and I happen to see it as: opposite pressure can often give a mom the backbone she needs to continue breastfeeding.  And again, leisure class moms have a lot more resources to fight the prop and feed pressure.  Working class moms often don’t, so they need the additional “necessity” to hold that breastfeeding demands. 

Kristin said: Obviously, guilting individual moms about their choices is wrong. It’s hurtful and it doesn’t yield any benefits.

First, see immediately above.

Second, I would respond that Rosin’s attempt to seek approval for her actions from those whose disapproval of same (and which she probably knew form earlier conversations) was a pitiful attempt to seek absolution for her own guilt.  Notice, no one vocally condemned her.  It wasn’t so much that they expressed disapproval, it’s that they refused a vocal approval of her intentions that she resents. 

Many older moms understand that the right to breastfeed was a struggle - many of them may have participated in nurse ins, or stared back the disapproving stares of those who thought babies should eat in the restroom.  So, yeah, finding out that someone you thought was an ally is selling out (because the fight is not yet won evidence maternity leaves, pumping facilities, onsite infant care, etc. are ongoing) is going to get some societal disapprovel, even if tacit.  Rosin and you don’t just want a choice, you want approval of your choice - even if I or the other moms think it’s a wrong choice- sorry, it doesn’t work that way.

Comment #104: phylosopher  on  03/18  at  08:24 PM

Not that this debate is new.  A while back I read Mary McCarthy’s novel The Group and was amazed to find an entire chapter on the Breast Wars.  One of the characters is unable to produce enough milk to feed her newborn.  Her husband is a doctor and she’s an educated Vassar girl, so they’re up on the latest pediatric literature and believe breastfeeding is massively important; in fact, her husband was hoping to show her around the hospital as a model.  When she and the infant turn out to be unsuited to breastfeeding, her husband gets angry at her.  She also endures criticism about being an unloving or unnatural mother, not to mention jokes about her breast size.  In the end, she feeds the baby formula, but not before being thoroughly raked over the coals for it.

This is in a book written in 1963 and set during the Depression.

Although we think of pro-breastfeeding attitudes as new, the truth is that educated, upper-class parents have almost always breastfed (before they did it themselves, they hired wet nurses).  Formula caught on not because it was seen as an improvement over breast milk in a nutritional sense, but because it freed up the schedules of working-class women, allowing them to balance babies with a job outside the home.  I’m wondering if doctors pushed formula too hard because, all too often, the alternative was for the baby to go hungry because its mother couldn’t afford to stay home all day to breastfeed.  (As many commentators have pointed out, this has been replaced by a formula-driven analogue in many third-world countries, where women can’t afford enough formula and starve their babies trying to water it down.)

As Amanda says, for all the good, and often feminist, intentions of the breastfeeding movement, it’s had the unfortunate effect of feeding a classist good mother/bad mother dichotomy.  If you have to breastfeed to be a good mother, then the only good mothers are those who either can afford to be stay-at-home moms or have an unusually accommodating, flexible, and child-friendly job (for the record, if I have children, I will probably be in the latter category, so I’m in the privileged class myself here).  I can imagine that Rosin’s article is kicking up a shitstorm, because she’s part of the tiny group of upper-middle-class women who actually can afford to be “perfect moms”—her article makes it clear that she moves in a circle of chic, dedicated SAHMs who raise their children on organic foods and boutique toys—yet she chooses not to go for perfection, not to chase every potential advantage for her children.  That drives some people batty.

Comment #105: Shaenon  on  03/18  at  08:26 PM

Thank you Shaenon.  I was thinking pretty much the exact same thing.

I did breastfeed my kids, both of them, for a year each.  Mostly for the cost and convenience (don’t have to make bottles at 3 am, breasts are always with me, so no packing bottles to go someplace, and always have a food source around if the kid gets hungry, plus, it doesn’t cost any money).

But, I was lucky enough to have a supportive husband, a part time job, and the time to do it.  And even with all that, I really didn’t enjoy breastfeeding at all.  I certainly don’t feel like I’m more bonded to my kids than my sister who didn’t breastfeed hers is (or than my mom, who didn’t breastfeed any of us, is bonded to us).

Comment #106: ks  on  03/18  at  08:27 PM

Damn.  Now I want some cupcakes.

Comment #107: keshmeshi  on  03/18  at  08:36 PM

“If you are a single parent working a twelve hour shift often, then maybe you should have thought realistically the demands of parenting before procreating? is my personal response.”
-phylosopher

For many people, it’s not a question of just waiting for the right time; maybe you’ll never find a better job, or a significant other to raise a kid with. It’s easy to SAY that the “right” thing to do in these circumstances is to never have children… Personally, I think the “right” thing to do is to change the system so that everyone has a chance to have a family, regardless of economic status.
On the plus side, women won’t be made to feel guilty about their personal choices (if abortion is wrong but having a baby now is also wrong, what the f*ck am I supposed to do? for example).

Comment #108: Zef  on  03/18  at  08:41 PM

Alara, don’t forget the single and/or working-class people who just plain want a baby. smile

Comment #109: Zef  on  03/18  at  08:44 PM

Oh, and hi, bagelsan! (sorry for the triple posting, all)

Comment #110: Zef  on  03/18  at  08:45 PM

Often as not, all-or-nothing leads to people ignoring your good advice.

Comment #111: lonespark  on  03/18  at  08:47 PM

Look I’ll reel this in and hopefully get you to the long view I’m seeing. 

twelve hour shifts - uhm, I think I was the one pointing out the class differences, so rest assured, that I get it.  I’m conflating the twelve hour comment with the Rosins of the world - who have the power to set/push real mandatory maternity leaves.  Unfortunately, many in this position are eroding hardwon workplace gains by uber dedication to the job - the exec who doesn’t take a vacation, puts in 90 hours per week facetime, etc. (and this was in the boomtime, not necessarily today.  So that those who want balance are seen as lazy slackers.     

Many of the gains we’ve seen: FMLA, lactation rooms at workplaces, are the direct result of “breast is best” and being able to use economic arguments (lower long term costs) to convince employers.  AS other posters have said, the fight is not yet won. While you’re all bitching at me about ooooh don’t guilt-trip your sisters, my ‘tude is nothing to the guilt employers will lay on women who want to breastfeed or want a family-worklife balance if the breast is best is dismissed. Can’t you just hear it?  “Eh, we formula fed the kids, just propped the bottle up and got our work done!  You must be a lazy, sentimental slacker if you insist on laying around with your kid just to feed ‘em.”

Comment #112: phylosopher  on  03/18  at  08:50 PM

I can imagine that Rosin’s article is kicking up a shitstorm, because she’s part of the tiny group of upper-middle-class women who actually can afford to be “perfect moms”—her article makes it clear that she moves in a circle of chic, dedicated SAHMs who raise their children on organic foods and boutique toys—yet she chooses not to go for perfection, not to chase every potential advantage for her children.  That drives some people batty.

This actually wasn’t my problem with her article at all. I thought she doesn’t particularly care for breastfeeding but feels bad about stopping. But instead of going after the cult of perfect motherhood that prevents her from acting on her own desires and just owning that decision, she tries to find ways to discredit a particular practice that she finds onerous, using possibly questionable evidence. The underlying assumption of the article was that somehow we’ve all been suckered into breastfeeding, and if we just knew the truth, we wouldn’t bother and we’d all be free. I think that’s bullshit. I thought intellectually it was in the same vein as someone like Flanagan - I became a stay-at-home mom and was happier, so women everywhere are deluding themselves thinking they want to keep their jobs. People who had similar experiences to hers are going to be relieved and validated to read it, but at the end of the day, you can’t project your own experiences into some sort of policy prescription that works for everyone.

Comment #113: chingona  on  03/18  at  08:52 PM

Chingona at 6:52—that is spot on.

aimai

Comment #114: aimai  on  03/18  at  08:59 PM

Although we think of pro-breastfeeding attitudes as new, the truth is that educated, upper-class parents have almost always breastfed (before they did it themselves, they hired wet nurses).  Formula caught on not because it was seen as an improvement over breast milk in a nutritional sense, but because it freed up the schedules of working-class women, allowing them to balance babies with a job outside the home.

On the other hand, my educated upper middle class grandparents were incredibly upset when my mother (the wife of a doctor) decided to breastfeed.  They all thought it was a horribly low-class thing to do. 

My understanding after reading a lot on the subject is that starting in the postwar era formula genuinely was seen as the way to go, for everybody.  I suppose there was probably a small minority of the very educated, or the very wealthy, or the daring bohemian set (or some combination of all three) who trended towards breastfeeding at that time.  Probably the same sorts of people who went in for Waldorf schools and socialist summer camps.  I don’t think it’s entirely correct that only the poor were ever expected to choose bottle feeding.

Comment #115: The Opoponax  on  03/18  at  09:06 PM

Thanks so much for the long view, phylosopher. My tiny lady brain wouldn’t have been able to see it without you showing the way.

For the record, “my sisters” are lactivists and most breastfed their babies. I breastfed 2 kids myself for a total of 8 years spent lactating, have organized a breastfeeding rally, and have personally stared down or ignored I-don’t-know-how-many unfriendly gazes.

So, you know, stuff it.

Comment #116: kristin  on  03/18  at  09:09 PM

Rosin and you don’t just want a choice, you want approval of your choice - even if I or the other moms think it’s a wrong choice- sorry, it doesn’t work that way.

Good to know that you don’t care why someone would choose to formula feed.  All you know is that formula feeding is always wrong, and someone who formula feeds is your enemy who must be shamed for making that choice.

No wonder Roslin felt like she needed to find evidence to back up her choice—people like you would never stop whining about what a bad feminist she is if she didn’t.

Comment #117: Mnemosyne  on  03/18  at  09:12 PM

Did anyone catch the stat in that article for women who get even to 6 months with exclusive breastfeeding in the US? 17%. That’s 83% of mothers who are being told—by some people at least—that they suck at parenting. (Of course I’m biased—I had 6 months of bottlefeeding a kid who got a decent latch maybe 5 times total, while my spouse spent those months getting no sleep and no time with the baby because of pumping.)

In a way, breast-feeding is a perfect microcosm of the liberal dilemma: there’s something that would be a good idea in a utopian society, but when you try to implement it in this one, it can sometimes have weirdly counterproductive ramifications. And meanwhile the wingnuts are against it tooth and nail(publicly-visible breastfeeding, anyway), so any admission that there might be qualifications or exceptions feels like betraying the cause.

Comment #118: paul  on  03/18  at  09:34 PM

“twelve hour shifts - uhm, I think I was the one pointing out the class differences, so rest assured, that I get it.” -phylosopher

Erm, does that mean that you agree with what I said? Because if you do, why would you write something so completely counter to it? Am I hallucinating?

Comment #119: Zef  on  03/18  at  09:39 PM

BTW, my son who was about 97% formula-fed in his first year does not have any allergies and he had no more bouts with infectious diseases than the average kid.

Shorter Rosin: If parents make an informed decision to use formula, the judgment police can fuck off. What’s right for one family isn’t right for every family, and it’s ignorant to condemn everyone who makes a choice you don’t agree with.

To Phylosopher: So, BFing forces mothers to bond with their babies? Bullshit overgeneralizing. When Mama is crying and frustrated and her nipples are throbbing, that’s not quality bonding time. That interferes with bonding. Not everybody has Happy Lucky Nursing Time.

Comment #120: Orange  on  03/18  at  09:52 PM

Evolution is smater than you are. So breast is a best first choice. When nature fails, we got backup.

Throughout human history there has been a lack of easily palitable food. When you live in the Ice-Man’s community all you got is mushroom discs, a few nuts, sour fruits, gamey meat, and grass seed gruel; weaning at four or five like our ape cousins makes sense. If an Ice Woman was lucky enough to hold some weight she might ovulate again when the kid was nearing two and tandem nurse. Humans can do this while our ape relatives cannot. Owen Lovejoy has sad that tandem nursing, long term female sexual receptivity, and resulting increase in reproductive rate was the driving force toward bipedal posture.

Things were even worse for neolithic and early bronze age women and babies.

For most of human history the household has been the center of production. BF was not a problem. I think a truly feminist policy would adapt to whatever breastfeeding decisions a woman made, with an emphasis on the “decision” part of what I just said.

Comment #121: Bacopa  on  03/18  at  10:51 PM

My understanding after reading a lot on the subject is that starting in the postwar era formula genuinely was seen as the way to go, for everybody.  I suppose there was probably a small minority of the very educated, or the very wealthy, or the daring bohemian set (or some combination of all three) who trended towards breastfeeding at that time.  Probably the same sorts of people who went in for Waldorf schools and socialist summer camps.  I don’t think it’s entirely correct that only the poor were ever expected to choose bottle feeding.
The Opoponax on 03/18 at 07:06 PM

Opo, I agree from my studies about formula all around - this is the time of some major strides in items like canned goods, refrigeration, cleaning products etc. and the real beginning of the unnecessarily manufactured household items in large part because of all the extra manufacturing capacity from the war, and the PROFIT MOTIVE.  That’s why formula feeding becomes so institutionalized.  Think the way pharmaceutical companies work on doctors today to use thier product - same thing for Nestle, etc.

but I’m sorry to anecdotally deflate that who kept breast feeding bubble, but there were also those who just plain were practical, especially in an era pre-diswasher, when bottles were boiled.  My mom was of that type, and none of your other conditions apply - she was going against the grain and as she was pretty conformist in most things, this always surprised me.  She never really talked about it until grandkids came, and then it was only upon questioning-and she wasn’t an advocate in any way.

Comment #122: phylosopher  on  03/18  at  10:57 PM

@ paul ... are you julie’s paul?

Comment #123: chingona  on  03/18  at  10:58 PM

For many people, it’s not a question of just waiting for the right time; maybe you’ll never find a better job, or a significant other to raise a kid with. It’s easy to SAY that the “right” thing to do in these circumstances is to never have children… Personally, I think the “right” thing to do is to change the system so that everyone has a chance to have a family, regardless of economic status.
On the plus side, women won’t be made to feel guilty about their personal choices (if abortion is wrong but having a baby now is also wrong, what the f*ck am I supposed to do? for example).
Zef on 03/18 at 06:41 PM

Hope this clarifies your next question,too, Zef.

I’m actually liberal-left enough that I think a guaranteed basic income for all would be great (Milbraith’s idea, but a good one, IMO.) But you start from where you’re at and we aren’t near that yet, so we can’t/shouldn’t make decisions as if we are.

We seem to want freedom and choice, but I think a lot of us (me included, many times) are very reluctant to actually make choices - and our society and technology contribute to the (false) perception that we don’t have to.  Choosing means not doing one thing in order to do another.  Lately, it seems we’ve forgotten that in our rush to see how many things we can do all at once - that’s not choosing, that’s a recipe for disaster, because we are going to do some things badly under those circumstances.  (see multitasking is a myth-recent brain study shows that - NPRadio, sorry don’t have cite).  As the credit crisis has proven, not being able to make choices will come back to bite you.

Like I said, I conflated Rosin/website with the 12 hour.  Sure, there are circumstances where single parenting is the unintended result.  But there are also some single and partnered parents who really do not confront what it takes to raise children (Octomom Nadya, anyone?)  Rosin seems to be in the position where she has refused to make a choice and tried to do both website and child, but she refuses to admit she may end up doing one badly.  Or that she could have not agreed to do said website-NOW.

For lower income moms, I really see formula as a quick fix that is harmful in the long run and working on breastfeeding being the default/institutional accepted way to feed kids.  Acknowledging that a mother contribution isn’t susceptible to being outsourced will make it easier as the kid ages to get part and flextime, telecommuting, time off for school events, etc.  At the least, breastfeeding is a tool for the social change you advocate - why throw away your best tool?

Comment #124: phylosopher  on  03/18  at  11:33 PM

Orange:  So you tried breastfeeding for nine days, huh?  Also, I find that the “average” kid actually has quite a lot of infections and diseases-and many of them are on the rise, in studies, not anecdotes. ANd many point to a breastfeeding link, which Rosin tried to negate-and failed in her attempt.

Comment #125: phylosopher  on  03/18  at  11:43 PM

there were also those who just plain were practical,

Well of course - there always are a few people in any group who don’t care about whatever social pressure, or current trends, etc. and just do things their own way. 

why throw away your best tool?

Because it’s really fucking hard to see your life politically, or really in the wider sense at all, when you are struggling to put food on the table and keep a roof over your head.  Especially to see yourself as one small cog in an overall movement to create change one workplace at a time.

Comment #126: The Opoponax  on  03/19  at  12:00 AM

Have we really become that individualistic and denying of the power of community -I’m sad about that one, Opo.

Comment #127: phylosopher  on  03/19  at  12:13 AM

Wow. You are really a piece of work, phylosopher. You think you’re the bestest breast feeding advocate around? You’re a stereotype of yourself, and I think you do your cause - and the cause of all women who want to breastfeed and want support for that decision - a lot of harm.

Comment #128: chingona  on  03/19  at  12:20 AM

Chingona, a while back you claimed that my attitude was that if you can’t or don’t want to breastfeed you shouldn’t be a parent.

About the can’t part which I never said and don’t think I implied: I never claimed that there was never a reason for formula (note I said it should be prescription only - like bacopa said, when nature fails we have a backup.)  So I just want to make really clear I certainly agree, understand, etc, that there are medically necessary reasons for formula feeding.  An off the top of the head list would be:

adoption
taking meds for a medical condition/illness
illness itself
disability

probably more, but “I don’t wanna” isn’t one of them.

Ok, I have an analogy and then I’m going to go parent, but I’d be interested in your responses:
surrogacy because although the woman is fertile and healthy,  she just doesn’t like the bother of pregnancy (or thinks she won’t).

Ok or not?  As a right or a privilege?

Comment #129: phylosopher  on  03/19  at  12:31 AM

I’m not even engaging that analogy. Surrogacy involves the use of another human being’s body. Formula involves reconstituted cow’s milk. I don’t even know what to say that you think the two are analogous.

Comment #130: chingona  on  03/19  at  12:57 AM

Orange:  So you tried breastfeeding for nine days, huh?

Are you for fucking SERIOUS? The woman clearly explained that her baby was moved to a different place than she was.

You know, I might be crazy, but I’m gonna go out on a limb here and assume that when a mother’s not with her newborn there’s gonna be a damn good reason for that, like hospital policy that won’t bend for her (or the need to be parenting her other kids or something). So in other words, she was separated from her baby against her wishes by circumstances she could not control.

And you have the fucking gall to sneer at her for not trying hard enough or long enough to nurse?

You take the fucking cake. I hope no one ever confuses my lactivism with your “lactivism”.

Comment #131: kristin  on  03/19  at  01:02 AM

Look. You have gone up and down this thread sneering at and insulting people, including women who had to try to establish supply with a pump while their babies spent weeks in the NICU. You think that makes the cause of breastfeeding look good? You think people are reading what you write and wanting to give it a try? Let me lay out my bona fides for you. I nursed my son for 22 months. I pumped for 10 months at work. My son was exclusively breastfed to six months and never had a drop of formula, even though I had to go back to work when he was only two months old because I was our primary wage earner. But when the topic of breastfeeding comes up in real life, I don’t even want to tell people. You know why? Because they have had encounters with people like you and are so fucking sick of your judgmental shit that if they encounter a woman who breastfed, they assume she’s going to be like you. You want women breastfeeding to garner political support? for solidarity? to change the system? You make the women who are supposed to be “role models” (which makes me puke, anyway, but just to engage your argument) not even want to talk about what they did.

Comment #132: chingona  on  03/19  at  01:05 AM

Also, “I don’t wanna” damn right IS a good reason not to breastfeed, and I can’t believe I’m arguing that because I’m as passionate a believer in breastfeeding as the biological norm as you’re going to find.

But you know what? “I don’t wanna” is a good reason for a woman not to do anything having to do with her body. And that certainly includes giving up a huge chunk of bodily autonomy, risking social disapproval and swimming upstream culturally, making her paying job or the care of her other children more difficult, and/or doing something with a socially-sexualized part of her body that she may find terribly uncomfortable or triggering.

Comment #133: kristin  on  03/19  at  01:07 AM

Um, it’s probably clear, but “you” is phylosopher, not kristin.

Comment #134: chingona  on  03/19  at  01:10 AM

I knew this thread was going to turn into a flame war eventually, but I never thought the person who would be pissing me off so much would be someone supposedly on my side.

Comment #135: chingona  on  03/19  at  01:12 AM

No kidding chingona! (I knew you meant phylosopher and not me, no worries.)

Comment #136: kristin  on  03/19  at  01:20 AM

Evolution is smater than you are.

Not always. I can design a better back than evolution has. And a better retina. (Well, to be fair, the cephalopod retina is swell).

Orange:  So you tried breastfeeding for nine days, huh?

And we’re done here. I want to say that phylosopher has done a bang-up job demonstrating why this article by Rosin got written in the first place. Most people—the vast majority—are decent people, who are willing to say utterly reasonable things like kristin and chingona, people who have their opinions and will share them, but people who also recognize that humans aren’t interchangeable parts, and what works for one person won’t necessarily work for another. As I said before, I agree with the idea that people should try to breastfeed—my ex tried, valiantly.

But one of the greatest victories of feminism has been the conceptual idea of female body autonomy. That extends to areas of a female body other than the uterus. Destroying the ability of women to choose how to use their bodies is so alien from the basic underpinning of feminism as to be completely divorced from it. Quite literally, this:

Acknowledging that a mother contribution isn’t susceptible to being outsourced will make it easier as the kid ages to get part and flextime, telecommuting, time off for school events, etc.  At the least, breastfeeding is a tool for the social change you advocate - why throw away your best tool?

Is a lot closer in spirit to anti-abortion rhetoric than feminism, for it argues that curtailing the right of individual women to control their own bodies is subordinate to building a society that is “better,” better having been defined by you. Sorry, I’ll stick to trusting women with the decisions regarding their bodies.

Comment #137: Jeff Fecke  on  03/19  at  01:52 AM

My apologies to Orange and thanks for pointing that out, Kristin and Chingona.  I was working off her second post - which was clearly about discomfort ONLY and somehow overlooked her first - my bad. 

However your post Kristin leads me to place this analogy again -  with this tweak to please Chingona.
 
If a surrogate is willing, and some reimbursement were made - this is a gray area right now - or if a willing friend or relative were found would it be OK to either use the commodified or volunteered service instead of DIY?

Or if it makes you happier, imagine that an artificial womb were available.  Pop in the embryo after standard IVF and voila, nine months later, out comes little Johnny or Janey.  It’s almost identical to natural womb gestation, although studies point to it being not quite as good, esp. with a slightly higher incidence of one fatal event, and a few chronic diseases, some irritating and painful childhood maladies and slightly lower mental development.  As for the egg donor mom, there are the usual drawbacks to hormone injection levels, etc.  At least this is what the ads say in fine print, while the bold type touts all no-muss no fuss benefits.    Would it be Ok to use the artificial womb?

Comment #138: phylosopher  on  03/19  at  02:01 AM

If a surrogate is willing, and some reimbursement were made - this is a gray area right now - or if a willing friend or relative were found would it be OK to either use the commodified or volunteered service instead of DIY?
Or if it makes you happier, imagine that an artificial womb were available.  Pop in the embryo after standard IVF and voila, nine months later, out comes little Johnny or Janey.  It’s almost identical to natural womb gestation, although studies point to it being not quite as good, esp. with a slightly higher incidence of one fatal event, and a few chronic diseases, some irritating and painful childhood maladies and slightly lower mental development.  As for the egg donor mom, there are the usual drawbacks to hormone injection levels, etc.  At least this is what the ads say in fine print, while the bold type touts all no-muss no fuss benefits.  Would it be Ok to use the artificial womb?

Yes and yes.

Turning this around, the risks of birth defects rise and average mental acuity falls slightly on average for children born to parents over 35. But we—and by “we” I mean feminists and their allies—don’t discourage women from having children at 39, or men from fathering children at 42, because we recognize those decisions are basic body autonomy issues, and that it is not a proper place for us to interfere.

Having a child when one is older is statistically more “irresponsible” than formula-feeding; that said, I know plenty of older parents whose kids turned out fine (my mother—born when her mom was 40—included), just as I know plenty of formula-fed kids who turned out fine (myself included). I would view any attempt to shame older parents into not having children as abhorrent. I’m in favor of people knowing the risks going in, of course—but I’m also in favor of letting them make their own decisions.

Telling people of the benefits of breastfeeding? That’s good. Telling them that anyone who doesn’t breastfeed is a horrible, selfish parent who doesn’t deserve a child? That turns off more people than it wins over. Which is exactly what you’ve done here.

Comment #139: Jeff Fecke  on  03/19  at  02:12 AM

phylosopher, I’m not talking to you anymore. It’s still a bad anology, but beyond that, I don’t have anything else to say to you.

Comment #140: chingona  on  03/19  at  02:13 AM

Though Jeff did take it on quite nicely.

Comment #141: chingona  on  03/19  at  02:14 AM

I’ve been a long time reader of this site and tend to agree with most of the posts however this is one that has absolutely appalled me.
“there is that there’s no fucking way that breast milk is as great as people act like it is”
The amount of total ignorance and condescension in that one statement summed up the post for me.
I feel like Amanda is making baseless points and completely disregarding science in a manner very similar to the global warming deniers. The benefits of breast milk are not hard to pin down at all. A few minutes of reading and research would have cleared that up. The benefits are clear and undeniable. In fact, they’re not so much benefits as standard. Formula is inferior. Period. It is dangerous. Period. It’s not a question. I think breastfeeding is a feminist act and I think it’s despicable and embarrassing for a supposedly feminist site to disparage something that is at the core of female humanity.
Formula companies are the problem, not the people touting the benefits of breastfeeding.

Comment #142: FenixQuemando  on  03/19  at  02:30 AM

Formula is inferior. Period.

Agreed.

It is dangerous. Period.

Sorry, nope. If it was “dangerous, period,” my happy, healthy six-year-old wouldn’t be here. Was formula suboptimal compared to breastmilk? Yes, it was. But it was “suboptimal,” not “dangerous.” And bottle-feeding is arguably safer now than it’s ever been—say what you will about formula, but it’s vastly improved from the 70s.

As for the formula companies being the problem—yes, to some extent, they can be, but I can tell you that nowhere along the way were we forced to give my daughter formula, and when we finally did, it was because she’d lost 20% of her body weight because she wasn’t getting enough food. Nobody put a gun to our head, and we weren’t seduced by the free tin of formula (which we couldn’t even use; my daughter couldn’t tolerate cows-milk formula).

I hate the idea that one can only be feminist by breastfeeding or, alternately, not breastfeeding. What’s “feminist,” in my book, is weighing the pros and cons, looking at ones personal situation, and making the decision for oneself. As I’ve said, multiple times, breastmilk is the optimal thing to feed your infants. But there are all sorts of optimal things that people choose not to do, from eating five servings of leafy green vegetables a day to throwing out their televisions. Rather than judging parents who aren’t breastfeeding, perhaps we can all worry about our own kids.

Comment #143: Jeff Fecke  on  03/19  at  02:38 AM

Is a lot closer in spirit to anti-abortion rhetoric than feminism, for it argues that curtailing the right of individual women to control their own bodies is subordinate to building a society that is “better,” better having been defined by you. Sorry, I’ll stick to trusting women with the decisions regarding their bodies.
Jeff Fecke on 03/18 at 11:52 PM

A but Jeff, that’s just the rub.  It isn’t as if women would just be able to sit back and make their own well thought out independent decision if all those mean breastfeeding Nazis like phylosopher would just leave them alone (and BTW, I generally don’t comment aloud to bottlefeeding women- strictly pragmatically -a) too late, b) it could be adoptee c) it could be grandma d) it could be a medical reason, with the exception of one or two bottlefeeding woman who verbally attacked breastfeeding ones.  Mainly it’s come in discussions with friends, who contrary to what Kristin and Chingona think, have remained friends.) 

Women and society have a shitload of institutionalized pressure on them to bottlefeed.  From cartoons to babydolls, feeding a baby involves a bottle.  Ultradiscretion, even in mother/daughter female groups never or rarely gives little girls the opportunity to view breastfeeding as a normal activity/option.

It’s very hard to have someone pick option B when all their lives all they’ve seen is option A.

So the guilt trip is merely a countering pressure - sorry, if I could just get the money for a longterm ad campaign to promote breastfeeding on real TV and in kiddie cartoons, and sitcoms then we could say that women really have a choice and I wouldn’t feel the need for some militancy about breastfeeding This no choice choice is especially true of teens - breastfeeding rates are much lower for them and for lower socioeconomic class women). Did you know that many WIC’s do not supply breastpumps or only offer manual ones and you have to ask, but will willingly supply at least $1500 in formula in year one?

And, it’s not MY definition of a better society, it’s one that most people say “is better” or they want.  And the tool to that I see as fulfilling that want is science based, not religion based.  So sorry, that analogy fails.

Comment #144: phylosopher  on  03/19  at  02:41 AM

Just because a child rides a bike without a helmet and doesn’t die as a result, doesn’t mean it’s not dangerous.
Formula fed children are 6x more likely to die of SIDS. Thousands of children in the United States die every year because they are formula fed. It’s completely preventable. Those are just the life and death situations. Formula fed children are at much higher risk for all kinds of health problems. From ear aches, to pneumonia, to diabetes and obesity.

Comment #145: FenixQuemando  on  03/19  at  02:44 AM

phylosopher, I’m not talking to you anymore. It’s still a bad anology, but beyond that, I don’t have anything else to say to you.
chingona on 03/19 at 12:13 AM

Expected Chingona. generally, It’s called check, concession is checkmate.

Comment #146: phylosopher  on  03/19  at  02:46 AM

But there are all sorts of optimal things that people choose not to do, from eating five servings of leafy green vegetables a day to throwing out their televisions. Rather than judging parents who aren’t breastfeeding, perhaps we can all worry about our own kids.
Jeff Fecke on 03/19 at 12:38 AM

But, Jeff, I don’t want to participate in discouraging people from eating their leafy greens, but when my tax dollars go to support programs that encourage bad eating (like WIC) I have a problem.  Or when I see people who refuse to take the simplest steps to be healthy, yet their eventual drain on the medical system ends up costing me too, yes, I have a problem.

PS - for what its worth, if you were a friend in the real world and you said that you had to start formula supplementing because your daughter had lost 20% body weight, you’d get a hug, not the fish eye.

Comment #147: phylosopher  on  03/19  at  02:57 AM

And, a last hurrah and good night:

Have you read this one Fenix? 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/26/AR2008112600386.html

Comment #148: phylosopher  on  03/19  at  03:03 AM

Both have their advantages (formula is infinitely easier—and anyone who tells you different is lying. Formula can be egalitarian—dads and moms can take responsibility for feeding. But formula is more expensive—significantly more expensive. And formula is not going to be quite as good for a child as breast milk, no matter how well-formulated it is. And of course, this applies only in the first world, as developing countries’ formula sucks).

It isn’t just a “Third World” problem as a minority of babies may not respond well….or in extreme cases may even develop severe allergic reactions to formula as was the case with myself as someone born in the late 1970’s in the US. 

Nevertheless, this fact should not be used to automatically condemn formula use as Formula is fine for the vast majority of babies.  With 30+ years of advances, I’m hopeful that the formula available today is better than in the past….unless someone wishes to correct me on this?

Also, one solution my parents had to the allergic reaction to formula other than some breastfeeding was to use the food grinders mentioned by other commenters here to grind the same meals they ate.  I’m surprised they faded out of fashion after the ‘70s considering how practical they can be by allowing babies to start eating the same meals as the rest of the family.  How popular are they these days?

Comment #149: exholt  on  03/19  at  03:05 AM

Wow. So much I want to say. Others have already made the point about class/work issues so I won’t address those points.

First, the article ticked me off.  Rosin’s takedown of the evidence was not very strong at all and I agree with Chingona that Rosin is looking for a “rational” excuse for her own desire to stop breastfeeding, even if she can’t quite manage to quit altogether. Having suffered from PPD, I couldn’t help but see the signs of it in her article—lots of work stress, unequal division of parenting/household labor, feeling smothered and tied down by the demands of nursing, feeling guilty for not living up to the mommy ideal, etc.  I think her observations about some of the social implications are right on, but her assessment of the source is wrongheaded, as others have already pointed out. 

Which leads me to my next point: breastfeeding is no more likely to create an unequal division of parenting than formula feeding. It’s the dynamic of the relationship that creates it. I am one of the few moms I know who breastfed past 3 months, but ALL of us struggle with creating a workable co-parenting relationship.  While men are more involved than in previous generations, the bulk of childrearing still falls on women, regardless of how an infant is fed or if the mother works/stays-at-home. There is absolutely no reason that BFing should automatically mean unequal parenting.

What Rosin experienced is also regional, in addition to class-based. My son is not quite 3 and I am still nursing him. Where I live, most women do not breastfeed, especially after the first 3 months and I have received more than a few comments about how my extended nursing is a form of narcissism and child abuse.  I am pro-breastfeeding, but always the first person to defend any mother who formula-feeds especially if someone is trying to lay a guilt trip like they didn’t try hard enough. Around here, the benefits of BFing are paid lip service and there really is a massive pressure to wean after 6 months, from the pediatricians to social pressure.  I also received tons of free formula from the hospital, was constantly told I couldn’t be producing enough milk (despite my son doubling his birth weight at 8 weeks), and the faux-admiration from non-BFing moms (you are so much more dedicated than I am, said with a faint sneer). BFing is hard work at the beginning, hardly anyone has an easy go of it. Most women can move past the obstacles if given the right information and support. A small percentage will never be able to and a more significant percentage will decide that the effort to make it work is interfering with bonding and causing more stress than BFing is worth.  All women have to find the balance that works for them and their family.  Somebody will always judge it because EVERY decision you make as a parent is scrutinized in that way.  I don’t know a single parent who doesn’t feel judged about something.

On breastfeeding tethering you to home or being unpredictable: bullshit.  Or, at least, not necessarily accurate.  By 3 months my son nursed every 2 hours like clockwork and did this until 15 months when I decided to cut down to every 4 hours.  Babies develop routines and it was easy to feed him on the go or at home.  In fact, we often had more flexibility about where we went and for how long because we didn’t have to worry about preparing a bottle or if a bottle would last long enough (I live in a very hot climate) or if we had brought an extra bottle during growth spurts.  My boobs were always there, the milk was perfectly warmed and ready to go.  At home, I learned to nurse and type.  True, I waited until he was 9 months before I went out without him, but I know I would have found some other excuse to not leave him if I had been formula-feeding.  The thing is, I don’t know anyone whose decision to stay home with their baby was predicated on breastfeeding; usually, it was the opposite.  I’ve known many women who either decided not to breastfeed or decided to wean because they had to return to work and pumping would have been too difficult. 

This is one of the few posts where I feel like Amanda’s analysis is lacking in perspective simply based on her experience as a child-free adult and my experience spending the last four years neck-deep in Mommyland, moderating forums for new mothers.

Comment #150: history_mom  on  03/19  at  03:16 AM

ah phylosopher, you knew you’d draw me out with that last ... just because I wasn’t smart enough to come up with Jeff’s example of older parents (a response I notice you didn’t take on) doesn’t mean you’re right. He’s right. You’re wrong. I also support the right of women to birth at home against medical indication, even though they have a slightly higher risk of ending up with a dead baby, and the right of women to refuse C-sections, even if it results in a dead baby. Why? Because the right to bodily autonomy is as close to an absolute as you can get.

And you don’t change structural disadvantages for breastfeeding by guilt-tripping individuals. I don’t know what the hell kind of political activism that is, attacking the people who are negatively impacted by public policy for that public policy.

Comment #151: chingona  on  03/19  at  03:17 AM

Actually, chingona, research indicates that home births are, statistically safer than hospital births both for the mother and for the child.
I suppose you think it’s wrong to judge or “guilt-trip” pregnant mothers who smoke and do drugs during their pregnancies as well. It’s not society’s job to coddle irresponsible behavior.

Comment #152: FenixQuemando  on  03/19  at  03:24 AM

I support bodily autonomy as well. And every single mother has the right to refuse their child breast milk. My problem is people trying to justify that choice by pretending that children don’t suffer as a result of that decision. Make a decision and own the consequences. Don’t try to assuage your own guilt by pretending that it’s not dangerous or risky.

Comment #153: FenixQuemando  on  03/19  at  03:30 AM

Formula is infinitely easier—and anyone who tells you different is lying.

BZZZT! Wrong.

Not everyone’s experience is like mine, obviously, but there is no way that cleaning, filling and refrigerating bottles of formula (not to mention budgeting for them) could possibly have been easier than breastfeeding for me.

It was an experience of the most utter not-hardness for me.

Comment #154: kristin  on  03/19  at  03:30 AM

BTW, food grinders are still easily available at any Babies ‘R Us or Target/Wal Mart.  But you don’t need one if you have a blender. Making baby food is really very easy, not particularly time-consuming, and a less expensive than buying jarred baby food.

FenixQuemando: Seriously, no.  The line you are drawing between breastfeeding and formula-feeding are not comparable to the line between smoking/doing drugs during pregnancy and not smoking/doing drugs during pregnancy.  That level of polemic is part of the problem.  In the aggregate, breast is best but on an individual level, it may not be.  Babies do better with relaxed, happy moms than stressed out and resentful moms, period.  Babies with parents who interact with them and successfully bond with them do better emotionally and intellectually than those who do not—breastfed or otherwise.  Part of the thing with the breastfeeding studies that one has to ask is whether the benefits are solely conferred by breastfeeding or can be recreated without.

Comment #155: history_mom  on  03/19  at  03:44 AM

I think it’s good that we know now what we used to not know about the effects of smoking and drinking during pregnancy. We’ve reached a point where we need to back the fuck off of pregnant women. You know, I ate cold lunch meat when I was pregnant! My baby could have died! I drank while I was breastfeeding! Gonna do something about it?

Comment #156: chingona  on  03/19  at  03:44 AM

It’s not society’s job to coddle irresponsible behavior.

Yes, that’s definitely the problem with modern American motherhood. Too much coddling!

Comment #157: chingona  on  03/19  at  03:56 AM

“Formula fed children are 6x more likely to die of SIDS. Thousands of children in the United States die every year because they are formula fed. It’s completely preventable.”

You are aware that correlation is not the same thing as causation, right?

Comment #158: preying mantis  on  03/19  at  09:20 AM

ah phylosopher, you knew you’d draw me out with that last ... just because I wasn’t smart enough to come up with Jeff’s example of older parents (a response I notice you didn’t take on) doesn’t mean you’re right. He’s right. You’re wrong. I also support the right of women to birth at home against medical indication, even though they have a slightly higher risk of ending up with a dead baby, and the right of women to refuse C-sections, even if it results in a dead baby. Why? Because the right to bodily autonomy is as close to an absolute as you can get.
chingona on 03/19 at 01:17 AM

Gee, Amanda will have to put up a notice on the site that you have to respond to every part of a post - or else, Chingona says.
So, here’ the response to Jeff’s bad analogy
1)look at your own critique - you do know the difference between correlative and causative don’t you?
2) One study on a very different demographic than what we have now, (1959-65) nutrition and health attitudes have changed.
3) a 2 pt difference on the stanford binet? and the old form Stanford at that?  only one effect, not the myriad we see with BrF

Where did you get your stats on homebirth:
“Studies done comparing hospital and out-of-hospital births indicate fewer deaths, injuries and infections for homebirths supervised by a trained attendant than for hospital births. No such studies indicate that hospitals have better outcomes than homebirths.”  As Felix said.

Let’s get back to the original article - Rosin wants not only the right (which I’m not arguing with, though I’d like to see the option regulated a bit more) but societal approval/friend support for her choices, WHATEVER THEY MAY BE.  Again, life doesn’t work that way. 

People don’t feel guilty for doing what they think is right, no matter the reaction; they feel guilty when they know there is something wrong or selfish with their choice. 

My other points have to do with the STILL prevalent - in implicit and explicit ways - push because of the profit motive to formula feed babies.  And I see you haven’t addressed that issue, though I’ve brought it up a number of times.

Comment #159: phylosopher  on  03/19  at  10:18 AM

And you don’t change structural disadvantages for breastfeeding by guilt-tripping individuals. I don’t know what the hell kind of political activism that is, attacking the people who are negatively impacted by public policy for that public policy.
chingona on 03/19 at 01:17 AM

My response is again to the Rosin class.  Those are the women who have the greatest chance of changing the public policy, the greatest options - to be SAHMs, to get the appropriate rest and nutrition to continue breastfeeding by outsourcing other tasks, to hire the attorney to fight the “go to the restroom to nurse restaurant.” 

You can’t guilt-trip someone who isn’t already questioning their own decision-as Rosin obviously is.

Comment #160: phylosopher  on  03/19  at  10:57 AM

History mom, I’ve found your posts pretty commonsensical, but did you read the article I posted for fenix?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/26/AR2008112600386.html

The breastfeeding question, because of the many, many effects, at some time reaches a tipping point - certainly, this would be one thing that helps get there.

Comment #161: phylosopher  on  03/19  at  11:02 AM

Gee, Amanda will have to put up a notice on the site that you have to respond to every part of a post - or else, Chingona says.

Of course you don’t. But if you’re going to throw around words like check and checkmate, perhaps you should have actually refuted something.

Where did you get your stats on homebirth:
“Studies done comparing hospital and out-of-hospital births indicate fewer deaths, injuries and infections for homebirths supervised by a trained attendant than for hospital births. No such studies indicate that hospitals have better outcomes than homebirths.” As Felix said.

I didn’t say “home birth.” I said, if you bother to read my comment, “home birth against medical indication.” Want to UC with GD and a previous shoulder dystocia? I wouldn’t do it, but it’s not my baby. Your C-section scar ruptured during your last VBAC, but you want to do it again and no one will attend you so you’re UCing? I wouldn’t do it, but it’s not my baby.

The point of my comparison is not to derail this thread into a discussion of home birth. The point of my comparison and others I’ve made is that everyone takes risks, including with their baby’s life in a statistical sense, because they need to make having a baby fit with the rest of their life. Back to sleep? I know parents and I’m sure you do too, you put their baby to sleep on its stomach, despite being warned a thousand different ways that their baby will definitely die of SIDS if they do it, because it’s the only way the kid will sleep. I put my kid to sleep on his back, but he slept fine that way. A parent making a different choice doesn’t need my approval to do what works for them. I slept with my son in our bed despite a gazillion public service warnings that I would role over on him and kill him, and yes, I’ve seen statistics that say babies that co-sleep have lower SIDS rates, and I’ve seen other statistics that say babies who co-sleep are more likely to be smothered by their parents, but I was doing what worked for me, I believed it to be “safe enough” and my kid is still alive.

My other points have to do with the STILL prevalent - in implicit and explicit ways - push because of the profit motive to formula feed babies.  And I see you haven’t addressed that issue, though I’ve brought it up a number of times.

Given that 1) I’m pro-breastfeeding and 2) I agree that the main reason so many people use formula is because companies heavily market it and breastfeeding is not normative and there is a huge profit motive in maintaining that status quo and 3) my very first comment on this thread asked that feminists not ignore the structural issues that serve as a barrier to breastfeeding for too many women and generally defended breastfeeding from the critique Amanda made, I’m really not sure what it is that you want me to address.

I just don’t think laying guilt on individuals is the way you address major structural barriers. You got a problem with WIC? I got a problem with WIC. But I don’t have a problem with a woman who doesn’t have any relatives to offer support or experience, who was given either only a hand pump or no pump at all, whose baby is losing weight, who doesn’t know what else to do, taking the free formula and using it to feed her baby. You got a problem with Hanna Rosin? I have a problem with Hanna Rosin. I think she should own her fucking choice. But my problem is not that she doesn’t want to breast feed, even though she can, and my problem is not that she wanted to do something with her professional life at the same time she had a baby, and my problem is not how she feeds her baby, and my problem is not even that she wants my approval. My problem is that she used questionable evidence to turn her own ambivalence into a policy prescription for other people.

If you can’t understand the distinctions that I’m making, if you really think that sneering at women for bottle feeding when you have no idea why they’re doing it, if you really think your approach is moving us a little closer to that wonderful day when the United States will have a breastfeeding rate to rival Sweden’s, I don’t know what else we have to talk about.

Comment #162: chingona  on  03/19  at  11:05 AM

The problem with children and parents (tongue-in-cheek) is that, fundamentally, everything a parent does affects their child, and it usually affects the child in a way that the child has no control over.

As a society, we agree that it’s wrong to overtly damage your child, but where those lines are drawn is a gray area and it is simply impossible to find consensus among the population about what constitutes Acceptable Risk And Personal Choice (ARAPC) and Unacceptable Harm And Legally Regulated (UHALR).

Physically abuse your child by starving them because they are “fat”? UHALR, and easy to agree on. Emotionally abuse your child by belittling them into anorexia? ...We all agree it is morally reprehnsible, but it’s damned tough to legislate.

Nutrition and “health” are especially difficult areas to discuss. For some people, it’s absolutely reprehensible to chose not to breast feed if the ONLY reason given is that the mother doesn’t, say, want to risk having her breasts sag a year later. The idea being that the nutrition of the child can/should be more important than attaining physical perfection. For others, the bodily autonomy of the woman to breast feed or not for ANY reason is going to take precedent over the nutritional benefits of breast milk, and they figur the kid will likely survive / thrive anyway (probably true).

The same lines can be drawn over a number of things? Alcohol while pregnant? Smoking while pregnant? What about heroin or cocaine while pregnant? Refusing medication to prevent your infant from contracting AIDS? What about preventing your child from receiving a blood transfusion for religious reasons?

The point is not to conflate any of the above with breast feeding. The point is that everyone here wants babies to be protected AND wants women to have reasonable rights over their bodies and their parenting decisions. I think, IMHO, the only disagreement here is where everyone draws those lines.

Like, for me, I don’t think alcohol while pergnant should be illegal, but I’m a fan of well-placed social shaming. Breast milk, on the other hand, I tend to assume that the mother knows what she’s doing and I don’t social same at all. But those two examples doesn’t mean I’m right, that’s just where I am.

Although, Phylosopher, you could cut back on the condescension by quite a bit. I mean, I see where you are coming from, and even I think you are over-the-top bombastic right now. Just a thought.

Comment #163: Essie Elephant  on  03/19  at  11:34 AM

UC= unassisted childbirth, I presume?  Again, should she be able to do so legally, sure, but as you can see, it’s been made more difficult for her because no one will assist.  You seem to reserve the right to disapprove.  And to not participate.  And when told to say “bad idea,” I presume. Perhaps even to cite some science?  Yet your tone earlier was that support and approval are de riguer.

If you can’t understand the distinctions that I’m making, if you really think that sneering at women for bottle feeding when you have no idea why they’re doing it, if you really think your approach is moving us a little closer to that wonderful day when the United States will have a breastfeeding rate to rival Sweden’s, I don’t know what else we have to talk about.
chingona on 03/19 at 09:05 AM

Social disapproval/societal pressure + capitalistic commodification with an assist from the medical community are the tools that got us to a 17% breastfeeding at sixmonth rate.  If the disapproval and “sneering” (on a much greater level and in more overt and explicit ways) of mother in laws and others are what influences women to bottlefeed - why you keep insisting that the same methods won’t work comes down to a “because I say so.”  Wanna bet if those other moms had not distanced themselves (which is a pretty mild form of sneering, BTW) she wouldn’t be breastfeeding at all?   

But hey, I’ll agree we’ve probably exhausted the topic.

Comment #164: phylosopher  on  03/19  at  11:43 AM

Yet your tone earlier was that support and approval are de riguer.

This was not and has not been my tone. My “tone” was that it’s not my business, and I don’t expect other parents to seek my approval for their decisions, any more than I seek out their approval for my decisions.

Social disapproval/societal pressure + capitalistic commodification with an assist from the medical community are the tools that got us to a 17% breastfeeding at sixmonth rate.  If the disapproval and “sneering” (on a much greater level and in more overt and explicit ways) of mother in laws and others are what influences women to bottlefeed - why you keep insisting that the same methods won’t work comes down to a “because I say so.” Wanna bet if those other moms had not distanced themselves (which is a pretty mild form of sneering, BTW) she wouldn’t be breastfeeding at all?

You see the glass half empty. I see it half full. More women at least try to breastfeed now than did in the (recent) past. I think we can provide more support for breastfeeding without demeaning mothers who decide to go to formula. I also think a positive, supportive, educational approach is better than a negative, criticizing one.

And what do you wanna bet if those other moms hadn’t distanced themselves, Rosin wouldn’t have written the article at all? What does more harm? Rosin not breastfeeding her own kid or Rosin writing an article that makes it sound like breastfeeding is a tedious chore with no health benefits?

Comment #165: chingona  on  03/19  at  12:01 PM

My mom formula fed me, put me in day care, smoked while pregnant, and even spanked me occasionally.  But, she never let me miss school unless I was truly sick, she never let me be late for anything, she never missed a single vaccination or check-up with the pediatrician, she had meals ready on a regular schedule every day, she always made sure we had clean clothes and a clean house, and she helped me with my homework every night.  Because of all these good things she did (and probably some genetics), both my brother and have high IQs, scored high on the SATs and above the 90th percentile for every standardized test in school, have college degrees, and steady, secure careers.  She stopped smoking when I was 7 years old, and she has changed her views about spanking.  She no longer feels guilty about day care, because of the enormous benefits I got from having a third loving adult in my life and plenty of kids around to play with and learn from.  However, a few years ago, when my brother’s wife got pregnant, my mom started to feel guilty retroactively about not breastfeeding me and my brother.  We both turned out to be very happy, healthy, and successful and yet she feels like she failed us.  Maybe she thinks we would make and extra few thousand a year if she had done that, or live a few years longer.  It’s almost offensive to me too, since she is kind of suggesting that I didn’t turn out “good enough”.  I hate the way this hysteria is causing psychological discomfort to a person who made some mistakes but is otherwise a great mother.  There’s no reason she needs to feel this guilt over formula when both of her children turned out better than fine.

Comment #166: bananacat  on  03/19  at  12:08 PM

I’m not surprised that there are over 150 responses to Amanda’s post, and not surprised by the content of those responses. This is trench warfare, and no one seems to be convincing anyone of anything they’re not willing to be convinced of.

I support extended breastfeeding (years, not months) as the NORM, and I know that BFing moms often have to be individual heroes in a hostile culture, which is evidence of a very sick society. At the same time, I think it’s pointless to keep repeating scientific facts, or personal stories of nursing, for that matter. The facts are crucial and the stories are inspiring, but the fact remains that we simply cannot get inside the experience of bottle-feeding as long as we’re seeing it from the lens of “this is wrong and it has to stop.”

Privilege is hidden, and so is disadvantage. We cannot begin to know to what extent the personal IS political—to understand that what looks on the outside like a mom who gave up or didn’t care, is actually a convergence of factors, from socioeconomic to familial to cultural. I am a therapist working with folks who have co-occurring mental illness and substance use. I couldn’t possibly survive in my job if I said, “What’s wrong with this person? He hasn’t worked a day in his life and won’t even take a shower.” I f I want to help the person’s situation improve, it’s my responsibility to understand his private experiences as best I can. And what do you know—the showers in his building are roach-infested and he has a 3rd-grade education because he essentially had to raise himself on the streets.

People don’t make choices in a vacuum. We have to be willing to give mothers the most basic “benefit of the doubt,” to compassionately get inside their experiences and understand what THEY believed their choices and options to be. Science, after all, is a living thing, and every mother’s experience contributes to the knowledge base if we keep our minds open.

Comment #167: Froggy  on  03/19  at  12:12 PM

@chingona —so much for plausible deniability

Comment #168: paul  on  03/19  at  12:29 PM

Ha! There were a few other times I suspected - this or that matched up, but it was too general for me to ever say anything. Anyway, I’m a big fan.

Comment #169: chingona  on  03/19  at  12:43 PM

When I was pregnant and missing coffee, my OB put risk in perspective for me. Coffee may represent a slight risk to my fetus. Getting into the car every morning without coffee to make me more alert represented a much bigger risk. Sushi might pose a slight risk to my fetus. But driving posed a much bigger risk, and no one was asking me to give up driving.

I’m still breastfeeding my two-year-old. Because that’s what works for my family. Yes, breastfeeding is bonding for us. But for a mother who “just doesn’t want to breastfeed” I can imagine it would be the opposite of bonding. Yes, it was easy for me to roll over and stick a boob in his mouth when he was nursing every hour. But for a mom who struggled with latch, I imagine formula would be easier.

Phylosopher, I don’t think you should be so dismissive of the mother’s emotional health. In my experience, happy mothers make happy and healthy babies. I don’t believe the benefits of breastfeeding can possibly outweigh the benefits of having a happy mom.

Comment #170: Av0gadro  on  03/19  at  12:45 PM

I wonder how many women who breastfeed also talk on their cell phone while driving with their kids in the car?  Or how many allow their kids to ride in a car at all?  Driving is the most dangerous thing we do each day, for many people.  We can’t call someone a bad person for using formula if we don’t criticize everyone who drives while using a cell phone, doesn’t use their turn signal, drives too fast, or tailgates as being just as bad or worse.

Comment #171: bananacat  on  03/19  at  01:01 PM

PS - for what its worth, if you were a friend in the real world and you said that you had to start formula supplementing because your daughter had lost 20% body weight, you’d get a hug, not the fish eye.

Aww, phylosopher, that’s great. I think it’s wonderful that you’d be so compassionate as to give him a pass on your bottle-shaming because he had an exemption considered acceptable to the Boob Police.

Here are a couple of other responses you might get to your shaming:

a) “This is actually my niece. I adopted her after my sister died in a car crash a month ago. The memory is still really painful, so thanks for bringing it up.”
b) “My oncologist recommends that I not breast feed while I’m on chemotherapy. It’s a pretty sensitive subject for me, so thanks for bringing it up.”
c) “I was recently diagnosed with HIV. We were lucky that it wasn’t given to the baby during my pregnancy, and we’re trying to protect her from it now. It’s a really sensitive subject for us, so thanks for bringing it up.”
d) “I really don’t feel like it. And I get enough guilt from my mother-in-law without having to hear it from you.”
e) “Fuck you. It’s none of your fucking business.”

(Guess which one you’d get from me?) Maybe, just maybe, the best thing to do would be to shut the hell up, even if she’s doing something you don’t approve of.

And for the record, don’t think you’re guilt-tripping - you’re shaming. Guilt is an internal process that happens when you know what you’re doing is wrong. Shaming comes when you know you’re doing what’s right for you, and some self-righteous turd who thinks she knows everything about everything starts telling you that you’re a selfish, horrible mother who’s endangering her child - and, oh, God, the entire community of working women with children! - by not making the decisions that said self-righteous turd would make. If you can’t step back and realize that you aren’t some sort of omnipotent authority on breast-feeding and that each woman has circumstances surrounding her decision that have nothing the fuck to do with you, shame on you.

Comment #172: ACG  on  03/19  at  01:19 PM

But you don’t need one if you have a blender.

Total aside, but I wonder if this isn’t why the babyfood grinder “disappeared” back in the 70’s/80’s.  The sorts of people who are in the demographic such tools are marketed to are likely to have a blender, food processor, food mill, and/or all manner of kitchen gadgetry which accomplishes the same task.

Comment #173: The Opoponax  on  03/19  at  01:28 PM

I can’t really weigh-in on the breast-feeding thing, but jeeze, while massage may have “no more health benefits than stretching” for you and others, for people with chronic pain, self massage and sports massage are a god-send, so to speak. I have Elhers-Danlos syndrome (a genetic disorder caused by mutations in collogen production), and my wacked-out joints cause muscle tension which causes tension headaches which cause migraines and so on. They aren’t relaxing, either- by the time I know I need to massage my neck/shoulders myself or have someone “roll” them, I’m at the point where doing so actually makes me cry. Yeah, it doesn’t regulate my humours or realign my spirit animals or anything, but it does make me functional and (mostly) pain-free.

Comment #174: Collie  on  03/19  at  01:34 PM

Total aside, but I wonder if this isn’t why the babyfood grinder “disappeared” back in the 70’s/80’s.

I’m sure. That’s why I never got one. I did purees in the food processor when he was just starting to eat food, and then as he started to eat our food, I would just cut it or mush it with a fork. Once they get the hang of eating at all, they can actually masticate pretty good with their gums even before they get molars.

Comment #175: chingona  on  03/19  at  01:50 PM

Opoponax:

It might have also disappeared from many stores because the damn things are indestructible and have a very short useful/needed life.  When your kid gets teeth you can give your mill to someone else with a nearly-new baby. So Once the initial burst is out in the field, continuin sales probably run 5-10% of first year. They’re a lot smaller and easier to use than a blender or food processor.

Comment #176: paul  on  03/19  at  02:11 PM

Once they get the hang of eating at all, they can actually masticate pretty good with their gums even before they get molars.

Yeah, my mom has this whole theory about jarred baby foods, texture, and adult food choices.  She swears that people who were fed too much processed over-sweetened tasteless mush as babies (especially people who were allowed to continue eating jarred baby food into childhood) have a hard time growing up to be adventurous eaters who like a range of nutritious foods. 

I’m not sure I agree with her, but it’s an interesting idea.  Especially looking at the wider processed food landscape—how do we convince people that they would rather eat gogurt or hot pockets, when those foods are pretty obviously innately inferior to real food?  “Start ‘em young” might be the answer.

Comment #177: The Opoponax  on  03/19  at  02:38 PM

She swears that people who were fed too much processed over-sweetened tasteless mush as babies (especially people who were allowed to continue eating jarred baby food into childhood) have a hard time growing up to be adventurous eaters who like a range of nutritious foods.

I definitely think introducing variety early on is a good thing, but I know too many siblings where one is a really adventurous eater and the other is really cautious/boring/picky. Because I assume they grew up eating similar foods, I think part of this is nurture but part is nature.

As for gogurt ... Is it different than yoghurt? I’ve never had it, but I always assumed it was actual yoghurt, just in a tube. No?

Comment #178: chingona  on  03/19  at  02:52 PM

Is it different than yoghurt?

Sorta.  I’ve never seen gogurt that wasn’t some variety of artificial fruit flavor and jam-packed with high fructose corn syrup.  It doesn’t actually taste like any real food, and its only resemblance to yogurt is that it’s vaguely dairy-esque. 

I’m not saying it’s Teh Ebul or anything like that, but it definitely falls into the category of over-sweetened processed mush.

Comment #179: The Opoponax  on  03/19  at  03:09 PM

Oh, and re the beginning of your comment - I don’t think my mom’s idea is that everyone who is given processed baby food will be a picky eater, just that babies who are given too much for too long are especially likely to be picky.  Especially those who were allowed to keep eating baby food into school age.  No idea if this is a study she saw somewhere, her own observation, or what.  But I think the idea is potentially an interesting one.

Comment #180: The Opoponax  on  03/19  at  03:17 PM

I was motivated to look up WIC and the programs are required to offer pumps for a small fee or lend them out.  You can’t get them before the kid is born, which is obnoxious, and I don’t know how well the whole thing works in practice.  Seems good, though, and something to be encouraged.

Comment #181: lonespark  on  03/19  at  03:17 PM

Phylosopher:  I’m sorry, why do you think that linking to an article about a contamination incident with formula in a NICU (we are not talking about general population here) changes my view about formula-feeding?  You know, I’m also not anti-peanut butter because of the recent contamination, or leafy greens, or tomatoes, or anything else.  Because food sometimes gets contaminated.  It does not make formula INHERENTLY dangerous.

There are a lot of reasons that women do not or cannot breastfeed. Having had PPD to the point of wanting to kill myself, I understand that good mental health is the BEST thing a mother can give her child.  Seriously, in this country babies raised on formula are not significantly disadvantaged.  The evidence suggest there are aggregate benefits to breastfeeding, but these benefits vary on the individual level.  I’ve been in the trenches for the last 4 years, I know the studies and I deal with moms EVERY.SINGLE. DAY.  I am part of a national non-profit that creates communities of mothers.  This is not some abstract game for me, but it surely reads as one for you.

Comment #182: history_mom  on  03/19  at  03:19 PM

Yeah, my mom has this whole theory about jarred baby foods, texture, and adult food choices.  She swears that people who were fed too much processed over-sweetened tasteless mush as babies (especially people who were allowed to continue eating jarred baby food into childhood) have a hard time growing up to be adventurous eaters who like a range of nutritious foods.

Interesting…..maybe the fact my older relatives and my parents all largely avoided the use of bottled processed baby food is one reason why nearly all my older cousins, including myself tend to be quite open-minded….nay…enthusiastic about trying new varieties of food. 

May also explain why I do not have a sweet tooth unlike most people I’ve known/met in my life. 

I definitely think introducing variety early on is a good thing, but I know too many siblings where one is a really adventurous eater and the other is really cautious/boring/picky. Because I assume they grew up eating similar foods, I think part of this is nurture but part is nature.

There is also a possible cultural and class factors in this.  For instance, the majority of us in high school tended to be working class and/or immigrant/first generation Americans who grew up with parents who recalled growing up with food scarcity issues due to wars and gross political malfeasance and thus, emphasized how one should avoid wasting food as we “American kids” were damned lucky to have plenty to eat.  In addition, it was considered doubly unseemly and rude to openly express one’s pickiness about food towards one’s host or friend who is providing the food. 

It was one reason why when I encountered college classmates who were openly picky about food, especially to the point of openly saying “I don’t eat that” with a sneer when others….including the Dean Emeritus hosted dinners, I’ve often attributed that behavior to their sheltered spoiled suburban upper/upper-middle class upbringing.

Comment #183: exholt  on  03/19  at  03:51 PM

I’m not saying it’s Teh Ebul or anything like that, but it definitely falls into the category of over-sweetened processed mush.

Well that’s good - cause my kid’s daycare uses it for snacks - I suspect because it is a lot less mess to give the tubes to six or seven three-year-olds than let them eat yoghurt with a spoon. Also, the health department regs are so strict they are a lot more pre-packaged food than they used to there.

As for baby food into toddlerhood, I could see something to that. It seems like a lot of kids are fairly open as infants, but get a lot pickier around two and go through a stage where they really don’t want to try new things. Part of it is just them asserting that they’ll do as they please. My own kid’s diet contracted quite a bit and now is expanding again, though he was never a super picky eater. I could imagine that if you go into that picky/stubborn stage with a very narrow palette and stay on those bland foods, it could have an effect on your tastes.

Comment #184: chingona  on  03/19  at  03:51 PM

Alright, I’d really like to move on, but the need to defend the online persona from unwarranted attacks calls.

First, I re-read all my posts, thinking whoa, did I say anywhere that I’d go up to a bottlefeeding mom and read her the riot act on bottle feeding? Nope, as a matter of fact I specifically denied it.  SO why not go back and actually read before you comment ACG?

First post - point out the class/ethnic differences as I’ve noticed them and as studies have found.
Come down hard on Rosin specifically becasue she’s in a pretty empowered class.

Second post - Post a reference which gives the legal protections for breastfeeding in different states in disagreement with a statement of kristin’s.  Proceed to agree with her on a lot of other things preventing breastfeeding and add pedes malpractice fears, and our lack of everyday familiarity with lactation.  Bring up, again, the greater influence women have of socially accepted practices as dependent on their class. clarify where I pulled the ethnic example from

Third post/fourth - both addressed to purpleshoes: clarify where I pulled the ethnic example from
and agree with her(?) about time spent making babyfood

Fifth post: link to an article about the melamine in CHinese baby formula in which 13000 babies were hospitalized

Sixth post: clarify to hooks in my head that I was referring mainly to the Rosin article and comment on societal aspirations as a class phenomenon.

Seventh post: divide response into personal/internal and pragmatic/external which is that there could be another alternative to formula which we (as a society) have barely glanced at per FDC article linked by another poster

Eight: Agree with poster who wants a more nuanced/truthful approach to breastfeeding education and add I hope some remedies that are low tech/natural get included too.
 
Ninth: Respond to poster that breastfeeding has an effect of necessitating bonding time in a multitasking society.

At which point “kittenparade” claims I’m idealizing and waving away problems.
At which point Kristin piles on with this:
Oh, and phylosopher? check your privileged and condescending tude there mmmmkay? Women are not flitting, stupid little creatures who simply forget to bond with their babies because no parenting structure is there “forcing” them to do it. What a disgusting and offensive idea.
kristin on 03/18 at 05:24 PM

(Hmm, this is the poster I called on a different thread yesterday where I thought her citations were not what she claimed they were)
I respond to Kristin,. In the meantime, Chingona and zef have commented on the twelve hour shift, etc.) 

I clarify that I’m conflating this with the Rosin class choices, not working poor women; then try to show the differences in longterm , social policy effects empowered women’s actions can have.  Also how it won’t be a guilt free choice if breastfeeding advocates don’t shame/disapprove/guilt-trip - it just means that the formula side guilt is all that’s there.

Note the name, it’s what I do, bigger picture scenarios etc.  Comments aren’ t necessarily the best place to lay out a social philosophy argument, so I attempt to clarify my thought processes in previous comments. 

Kristin goes ballistic this time, seeing an anti feminist insult where none is intended, and it’s rather a stretch to find one, IMO.

My responses after this are definitely pissier and bombastic in tone(that’s how, short of vulgar flaming, which I try to avoid, pissier manifests with me, Essie). 
 
So ciao all, thanks for the impetus to write the paper, not the comments.

Comment #185: phylosopher  on  03/19  at  04:58 PM

I usually take full-time serving jobs in the summer (just about the only work that’s always available where I live) - the most recent of which was at a little Waffle House. The vast majority of the staff are not young people, and many of them have had children while being employed there. No, there’s no time off - I suppose if the manager liked you he might’ve tried to find someone to take your shifts for a week, and you could have used up your single week of vacation if you’d already worked there a full year. But after that week or two, you’d be back to a world of constant motion and half-smoked cigarettes, and disappearing for 15 minutes - especially on multiple occasions - could very well get you fired. I don’t imagine storing breastmilk in the one massive fridge in the back would be accepted well, either. You can’t tell me this isn’t a class issue.

I see the whole ‘controversy’ as in the same league as other such hits as “You drank COFFEE when you were PREGNANT?!” and “Your kids are in DAYCARE?!”

Comment #186: Katie Joy  on  03/19  at  05:01 PM

Phylosopher:  I’m sorry, why do you think that linking to an article about a contamination incident with formula in a NICU (we are not talking about general population here) changes my view about formula-feeding?....
history_mom on 03/19 at 01:19 PM

This is a specific, “technical” reply to a specific question only.

I don’t think we’re reading the same article; I rechecked the link and the article.

Title: FDA Draws Fire Over Chemicals In Baby Formula

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/26/AR2008112600386.html

The articles I posted were about melamine in “top-selling” infant formula and cyanuric acid and the FDA contradictions on safety of same.  The earlier article I posted was about the Chinese melamine in formula with 13-50K infants ingesting it. While I’ll agree that these incidents don’t make all formula inherently dangerous, large scale contamination of this sort is simply impossible with breast milk.

Comment #187: phylosopher  on  03/19  at  05:25 PM

I will admit to not reading the entire thread - but my observations, having breastfed both of my sons, is that there are too many conditions and either/ors put on this.

Such as: you can’t breastfeed if you go to work
you can’t give them a bottle ever if you are breastfeeding
you are tied to your child 24hours a day and dad does nothing if you breastfeed

etc.

The local LLL was a hornets nest of zealots of EXTREME ATTACHMENT PARENTING.  I think these are the folks who have all the issues with gender roles and absolutist rules of this and that and use reproductive status to hogtie women.  They even distributed an oft-copied, umpteenth generation reprint of a 1978 article on the benefits of breastfeeding for fathers, which with such gems as “you can buy her a dishwasher with what you save on formula”.  OMFG

I know for a fact that you can nurse a child without having to be enslaved 24/7 and leave the workforce - you just have to tell the tinfoil bra set to STFU and figure it out yourself.  Nursing was way easier than futzing with formula, I used formula for a backup and that worked nicely at daycare if I didn’t want to pump, and I got to sleep through most nights by putting my son to bed and then carrying him to mine when he work up in the wee hours.

Try it, like it or not, do it or don’t or adopt a mixed approach, and tell the rule givers what they can do with their stupid little rules.

Comment #188: Ms Kate  on  03/19  at  05:27 PM

However, a few years ago, when my brother’s wife got pregnant, my mom started to feel guilty retroactively about not breastfeeding me and my brother.

I swear I’m not trying to second guess your mom’s assessment of her own feelings, or suggest that I know better than other women what would make them happy, so I apologize if what I’m about to say sounds like that.

But I often wonder if this “And then she felt guilty” kind of anecdote is actually about guilt for “failing” someone else<i>, or if it’s more of a wistfulness or resentfulness for missing a chance at <i>something she would have liked to try or experience. I mean, we live in a culture that deeply links women and guilt and often what a woman is actually feeling or experiencing could be labeled guilt when actually it’s something different like regret, you know?

I imagine it would be easy for a woman to choose to formula feed her babies, say, (or to accept that the larger structure is going to fuck up her chances of breastfeeding anyway, so she might as well let it go) and later watch her grandchildren being breastfed; and think, not “I was a bad mom for not doing this” but “Wow, that looks really nice, I wish I could have had a chance to experience it”.

Frankly, I think the dominant structure cheats women out of a lot of satisfying and happy experiences, and being that we’re not total dumb clucks most of us know that perfectly well; but when it applies to our own lives, we’re so socialized NOT to look at an issue and say “I was cheated” or “I was denied real choice” that it’s easy for us to say instead “I feel guilty for not stopping myself from being cheated by the dominant structure” and “If I had been a better person I would have succeeded at providing myself with this experience” or “If I’d done things right I would have been able to stick with my choice”.

There’s an essay on the interwebs somewhere about how when a lot of people say “but if we tell the truth about how many artificial barriers are put in the way of breastfeeding, women will feel guilty for not succeeding” it’s code for “if we tell the truth about how many artificial barriers are put in the way of breastfeeding women will feel ANGRY about being lied to.”

Comment #189: kristin  on  03/19  at  05:32 PM

phylosopher, the part that made me totally lose my cool and decide you were a judgmental asshole was your comment to Orange. I know you apologized, but it was a pretty flip apology if you consider what you said to her and what she went through. Just saying.

And kristin, I think that’s astute.

Comment #190: chingona  on  03/19  at  05:49 PM

Chingona, I’m not trying to pick some kind of “you are slowly poisoning your kid with gogurt!” fight, here.  Just commenting that, like many foods that are ubiquitous in the states, it’s over-sweetened and lacks complex flavors and textures.  I grew up on those sorts of things, just like most of us commenting here probably did.  And I think that, in terms of nursery school snacks, you can definitely do worse.  We got Kool Aid and off-brand Oreos at daycare when I was a kid.

My larger point is just to wonder how you take humans who evolved to crave a very diverse number of flavors and textures in food and turn them into unquestioning drones who are willing to narrow the field to only one or two tastes and no texture.  And while I’m not sure that I actually agree that baby food is the culprit, it’s interesting that we now take it pretty much as axiomatic that nobody should be expected to taste or chew anything until they’re in like third grade.

My main disagreement with my own thesis, actually, is that people subsisting on sugary junk hardly got started with jarred baby food—for instance, in Down and Out in Paris and London Orwell describes the English poor living almost exclusively on bread and sugary tea.  Not too far from the modern American poor making do with Dr. Pepper and cuppa noodle.

Comment #191: The Opoponax  on  03/19  at  06:01 PM

Oh, I wasn’t offended. That was kind of a joke. You said it wasn’t “Teh Ebul,” and I was thinking, “well, that’s good, cause he eats it on a fairly regular basis.” Given the theme of this thread, I should have perhaps added some indication that I was not feeling attacked as a parent. And my kid eats real yoghurt at home, including plain yoghurt as a dip, so I’m not too worried about his palette being ruined.

I’m not entirely sure what we evolved to like. If you look at comfort food around the world, salt, fat, starch and sugar feature pretty prominently just about everywhere, and that might not be the most nutritious food, but it will get you through the day. Mmm…Dr. Pepper. I hardly ever drink soda, but I do like Dr. Pepper.

By the by, did Amanda ever forward that Purim thing to you from me? If she didn’t, I’ll post it here, cause the thread drift is great enough that I won’t feel bad posting a link about the Babylonian origins of Purim.

Comment #192: chingona  on  03/19  at  06:21 PM

I hope phylosopher never has kids.  Yikes, what a misinformed pedant - but at least a good illustration of how the reality-deficient use lactation to try to judge, control, and bully women.

I suppose he/she won’t get the kid vaccinations, either - and judge away at anyone who disagrees and vaccinates their own kids.

Comment #193: Ms Kate  on  03/19  at  06:55 PM

I think she does have kids.

Comment #194: chingona  on  03/19  at  07:03 PM

Sad for them - I’ve seen what happens when the children of such people get older and leave at age 16 or 17 because they can’t fucking stand it anymore.

Comment #195: Ms Kate  on  03/19  at  07:06 PM

She’s misinformed because she’s knowledgeable and well-versed in science based research?
That’s a new definition of misinformed that I wasn’t aware of.

Comment #196: FenixQuemando  on  03/19  at  07:19 PM

I hope phylosopher never has kids.  Yikes, what a misinformed pedant - but at least a good illustration of how the reality-deficient use lactation to try to judge, control, and bully women.

I suppose he/she won’t get the kid vaccinations, either - and judge away at anyone who disagrees and vaccinates their own kids.
Ms Kate on 03/19 at 04:55 PM

Might I point out to you how you’re violating your own principle of being non-judgmental here?

Comment #197: phylosopher  on  03/19  at  07:21 PM

Thank you fenix - what does quemando mean?

Comment #198: phylosopher  on  03/19  at  07:25 PM

No problem. Thank you for taking on the daunting task of trying to bring some logic and reason to this dialogue.

It is Spanish for burning.

Comment #199: FenixQuemando  on  03/19  at  07:34 PM

FenixQuemando:  If you read phylosopher’s posts in totality and conclude s/he is bringing logic and reason to the table, then you have drunk far too much of the koolaide. 

Phylosopher apparently thinks that a woman’s mental health is irrelevant to the individual calculus for deciding to breastfeed/formula-feed, ignoring that population studies tell us very little about what INDIVIDUALS ought to do. Having breastfed and experienced a lot of difficulty doing it, I can tell you that being forced to continue the breastfeeding relationship when it is causing extreme psychological distress is HARMFUL to your child, far worse than the harm that formula-feeding supposedly causes.  Seriously, in a classroom or on a playground you will not be able to tell the breastfed from the formula-fed children.  Those who want to blow this up into a ZOMG!!!YOU ARE POISONING YOUR BABY!! are batshit insane and no progressives.  Certainly, anyone who dismisses women’s actual experiences of breastfeeding as irrelevant needs to STFU.

Incidentally, both of you are demonstrating Rosin’s horrid thesis perfectly.  I’ve known more than a few women who wanted to try to breastfeed but lacked confidence in their ability to succeed. They were completely turned off from trying to breastfeed in the first place or continue to try to do it after being berated by hardcore lactivists.  I had a friend who tried EVERYTHING to make BFing work told by a lactation consultant at LLL that she simply wasn’t trying hard enough and didn’t want to succeed.  This attitude is devastating to mothers and does nothing to bring breastfeeding any social acceptance.  Just as I do not appreciate having people tell me how disgusting it is to breastfeed a toddler who can ask for milk, telling women they are being selfish or irresponsible for not breastfeeding is simply wrong.

Comment #200: history_mom  on  03/19  at  08:10 PM

I’d also point out to Fenix that almost everyone who is arguing with phylosopher is pro-breastfeeding and has nursed their own children. But apparently we’re not pure enough in our devotion because we’re also anti-woman shaming.

Comment #201: chingona  on  03/19  at  08:22 PM

“Phylosopher apparently thinks that a woman’s mental health is irrelevant to the individual calculus for deciding to breastfeed/formula-feed, ignoring that population studies tell us very little about what INDIVIDUALS ought to do.”

I really don’t see how that could have been interpreted from any of phylosopher’s posts.
The issue is not with shaming it’s with negating science to justify poor decision making. Rosin’s distortion of medical studies and decades of research is comparable to the wingnuts who try to claim that global warming doesn’t exist. It’s irrational and distracts from being able to address the real problems.

Comment #202: FenixQuemando  on  03/19  at  08:27 PM

Opoponax:

I think that the “everyone should eat tasteless pap” thing comes at least in part from the Graham/Kellogg/etc asceticism/purity kick that started in the 19th century and got revived by some self-styled environmentalist/pure food types in the 60s and 70s. My sister worked as an au pair for a family of health types back in the 70s who told her not to put any pepper in their food, and a minimum of salt, because it angried up the blood. (And when she sneaked pepper and butter into the mashed potatoes a few times, kids and adults commented volubly about how delicious it was.)

Superprocessed stuff isn’t tasteless, it has plenty of salt and sweetener (and often cinnamon and vanillin) to mask the off flavors, just like they supposedly used spices in the middle ages. If anything, toddlers are so thrilled to get something with flavor after what passes for baby food. (Watching an infant taste cheddar for the first time is just a wonderful sight.)

Comment #203: paul  on  03/19  at  09:35 PM

Fenix, I think I am far more qualified than just about anybody on this thread to judge the health reasearch, having a PhD in the subject and working as an epidemiologist.  Not coincidentally, that is one big reason I think you and her are full of crap - you are VASTLY overstating both the benefits of breastfeeding and the risks of not breastfeeding.

I think women’s health and sanity counts for something - and I’m well aware of such issues as statistical insignificance and uncontrolled confounding for socioeconomic issues and psychological outcomes.

Besides, it doesn’t matter one fucking bit what you, I, or phooloosipher thinks about the research - what matters is that INDIVIDUAL WOMEN HAVE AGENCY to decide what works for them, their infants, and their families.  I get pretty sick and tired of hearing all this shaming and blaming from people who have no grasp of the realities that some women face.  My own mother could not nurse me nor my brother because her milk was totally whack - what my dairyman father called “bluejohn” when she pumped it out.  My LLLborg SIL claimed that such a situation “couldn’t possibly exist” and “was just an excuse” despite my mother’s extreme motivation to not buy formula given our standard of living at the time.  Great work SIL - no woman can fail, but bitches make excuses and quit?

BTW, Bluejohn is well known in dairying ... and does happen in humans. So much for “knowing science”.  Yeah, “knowing science” as a way to bully and shame.

Comment #204: Ms Kate  on  03/19  at  10:15 PM

Social disapproval/societal pressure + capitalistic commodification with an assist from the medical community are the tools that got us to a 17% breastfeeding at sixmonth rate.  If the disapproval and “sneering” (on a much greater level and in more overt and explicit ways) of mother in laws and others are what influences women to bottlefeed - why you keep insisting that the same methods won’t work comes down to a “because I say so.” Wanna bet if those other moms had not distanced themselves (which is a pretty mild form of sneering, BTW) she wouldn’t be breastfeeding at all?

Because coercing women into doing what may be marginally better for other people, regardless of the casualties (women who still fall into the shame trap who can’t do a goddamn thing about not being able to breastfeed, women with postpartum depression, women who have to work full-time, and so on) is winning? Really?

I refuse to believe that the only way to provide true choice in the face of pressure on one side is to add pressure from the other. For one, it lands many women in a situation where they just can’t win. It’s also completely unnecessary, as evidenced by the entire pro-choice movement. We’ve made huge gains by simply being the side that doesn’t judge and expands options. Sure, there’s a shit-ton of judgment and pressure from the anti-choice crowd, but it’s not hard to see that we’re winning this one. And we’ve done a hell of a lot for women without shaming or coercing them into making THEIR choices the way we might want to make them.

Comment #205: Katie Joy  on  03/19  at  10:21 PM

Superprocessed stuff isn’t tasteless, it has plenty of salt and sweetener

Uhhh, that’s kind of my point.  In most processed American food, there are two possible tastes.  Sweet or salty.  That’s a tiny minority of the flavors that exist out in the world of real food.  Most Americans I know hate real yogurt, for instance - they can only stomach the sweetened pablum version, because the idea of deliberately eating something with a strong and complex sour flavor is pretty much unheard of outside foodie circles.

As for cheddar, it cracks me up that the Cabot Creamery “mild cheddar” has a graphic on the label which advertises, “Great For Kids!”, while their other cheddar cheeses don’t.  As if ordinary or strong cheddar cheese was too much flavor for anyone under 18, or something.  For that matter, it cracks me up that cheddar is considered a “strong flavor”.  Among cheeses, cheddar is one of the mildest and blandest outside of mozarella, ricotta, and other fresh cow’s milk varieties.

Comment #206: The Opoponax  on  03/19  at  10:27 PM

Oh, and Chingona - she either didn’t, or it got caught up in spam or I somehow never saw it.  Always possible…  I’d love it if you’d post it here.

Comment #207: The Opoponax  on  03/19  at  10:30 PM

The science question cuts both ways, Fenix.  Rosin misused the data to advance her thesis that breastfeeding is a shackle and not really that beneficial and lactivists misuse the evidence to overstate the benefits and understate the very real problems women experience breastfeeding (from structural to physiological).

Consistent with my absolute pro-choice stance, I would never support any public policy that required women to cede their bodily autonomy to nourish another human being, even with a “health exemption”. Especially when a good (if suboptimal) alternative is available. Someone already noted there is a very common thread between pro-life and the extreme lactivist arguments: both completely disregard the individual woman’s ability to make the BEST decision for her life and condescendingly grant their approval to the “good” women who couldn’t perform their biological duty because of medical circumstances.

Comment #208: history_mom  on  03/19  at  10:31 PM

Also, for Ms Kate, because I am a nerd with dairying in my blood - what exactly is bluejohn?  Googling produces results with some relation to skim milk, or a term for the milk produced by Holsteins which is apparently “thinner” or less fatty than other milks.

Comment #209: The Opoponax  on  03/19  at  10:43 PM

Katie Joy, you are making the most unscientific assertion that women themselves count - it’s all about what is most important for teh babeh no matter how much it hurts or destroys the “selfish” mother who thinks she gets to make any decisions.

I ran into this when my son flipped breech and I suddenly disappeared, my health, my allergies to painkillers, etc. all became irrelevant, despite ample epidemiologic evidence that my son’s risks were not increased by a vaginal birth, but my risks would be greatly increased by a c-section.

Comment #210: Ms Kate  on  03/19  at  10:48 PM

Bluejohn is when a cow produces blue, chalky, fatless milk.  It has largely been bred out of most cattle, but still emerges now and again in certain breeds (Herefords??).

It appears to be a genetic trait, and ran in my mother’s family.  Her father had to have a wet nurse, and it may have had something to do with his mother being given to another family shortly after birth.  At six weeks of age, I was still 7lbs but had grown two inches - I nursed plenty, but mom’s milk had no fat.

Oh, but LLL says that can’t possibly happen - yes, a starving baby is just an excuse.

Comment #211: Ms Kate  on  03/19  at  10:52 PM

Opo, from jewschool, some speculation about the Babylonian roots of Purim. Given that most of the commenters there are both more religious and more educated about their religion than I am, though very diverse in how they are religious, it’s interesting to read the comments and see the ways some people are very resistant and others are very comfortable with it.

I immediately thought of our conversation on that Valentine’s Day post when I read this.

Comment #212: chingona  on  03/19  at  10:54 PM

As for cheddar, it cracks me up that the Cabot Creamery “mild cheddar” has a graphic on the label which advertises, “Great For Kids!”, while their other cheddar cheeses don’t.

My older son wouldn’t eat homemade or unsweetened jarred baby food until I tossed in any of these appropriate spices: cinnamon, curry, or GARLIC.  The kid was wicked vampire proof! It wasn’t the lack of sugar or salt ... it was the lack of flavor that he turned his nose up at.

He and his younger brother live Cabot Hunter’s X or hunter’s cheddar, and always have.

Comment #213: Ms Kate  on  03/19  at  10:56 PM

Interesting, Ms Kate.  No, really.  I said I was a nerd after all… 

What happens to calves when the cows produce bluejohn?  Do they just “fail to thrive” and die?

Comment #214: The Opoponax  on  03/19  at  10:59 PM

I think they get wet nursed - most dairy cattle have plenty enough milk for more than one calf!

Comment #215: Ms Kate  on  03/19  at  11:01 PM

Chingona, that is the bestest link I’ve seen in a long time.  Definitely best of the day or last couple days. 

Between Secrets Of The Dairymen and Ishtar = Esther, this whole derailing idea was brilliant.

Comment #216: The Opoponax  on  03/19  at  11:03 PM

I was more asking, like, on a non-dairying farm, or a small family farm that might have only one cow.  I almost typed “in the wild” and then realized, duh, there is no “in the wild” for cattle - we invented them.

Comment #217: The Opoponax  on  03/19  at  11:05 PM

Not to the derail the thread, but I found this very interesting story:

http://www.coolhunting.com/archives/2007/07/marge_the_lowfa.php

Apparently one producer has actually begun breeding the low-fat milk trait into their herd to produce naturally low-fat milk (yep, it’s a genetic trait). Normal cow’s milk is 3.5% fat; “Marge” produces 1% fat milk. No mention of how the calves were fed, but I would assume that producing milk with less than 1/3 the normal fat could be problematic.

Comment #218: Katie Joy  on  03/19  at  11:10 PM

Comparing human beings to cattle is a bit far fetched and I’m very skeptical of your claim Ms. Kate.
Human milk and cow milk are very dissimilar substances and not all mammals produce milk the same way.
Furthermore, all human milk contains fat. It has a very high caloric value which is one reason why it is given to cancer and AIDS patients who are unable to digest anything else.

Comment #219: FenixQuemando  on  03/19  at  11:41 PM

Comparing human beings to cattle is a bit far fetched

Yeah!  I mean, it’s not as if we’re both, y’know, MAMMALS or anything like that!

Comment #220: The Opoponax  on  03/19  at  11:44 PM

Fenix, when cancer and aids patients are given breastmilk it’s many women’s milk combined and standardized for fat and protein content. You can’t donate to most milk banks unless you child is under one, because they want the fat content to be high, and they test your milk for fat and protein before you can start donating. It is possible to have breastmilk the HMBA (Human Milk Banking Association) won’t accept. Now, normally that milk will nourish your own child just fine - most kids are a lot less fragile than preemies and cancer patients, but not always.

Comment #221: Av0gadro  on  03/19  at  11:49 PM

Ok, here’s some food for though, then. Have you ever tried making cheese out of breast milk? It can’t be done. Why? Because there are so many antibodies in human milk that they kill the lactobacillus, which is necessary to ferment.
Virtually anything can be fermented except human breast milk. That’s how powerful it is.

Comment #222: FenixQuemando  on  03/19  at  11:51 PM

Furthermore, all human milk contains fat. It has a very high caloric value which is one reason why it is given to cancer and AIDS patients who are unable to digest anything else.

Yes, and all humans make blood that contains only red blood cells that form perfect toroidal shaped red cells ... and all human lungs produce adequate surfactant ... and all human digestive systems produce lactase.

There simply is no variation in the genome!  None!  No mutations, no changes ...

What was that you were saying about science?  Oh, but you can’t use it to bully and blame a sickle cell patient ... or other genetically anomalous person for that matter.

Comment #223: Ms Kate  on  03/20  at  12:07 AM

Oh, and I did successfully make yogurt out of my own breastmilk - not joking ... just had to try it.

Comment #224: Ms Kate  on  03/20  at  12:08 AM

Because there are so many antibodies in human milk that they kill the lactobacillus, which is necessary to ferment

Why would a woman have antibodies to lactobacillus?  It’s not a question of how many antibodies someone has, it’s about what types, because they’re specific to the various antigens.  And lactobacillus isn’t harmful, it’s part of our natural gut flora, and there’s no reason for it to provoke an immune response.

Comment #225: burgundy  on  03/20  at  12:17 AM

How on earth - when people get cancer and Alzheimers and arthritis, when babies have birth defects related to chromosonal changes or are inexplicably stillborn - can you believe that breastfeeding never, ever goes wrong? It would make it the only function of the human body that never goes awry. That would be powerful indeed and wonderful.

Inability to make the right kind of milk certainly is not the main reason we have a low breastfeeding rate in the U.S. But to act as if it literally never occurs is just astounding.

Comment #226: chingona  on  03/20  at  12:17 AM

http://physiolgenomics.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/37/1/12

So much for the idea that humans were created in a vacuum - some of the expression of genes in lactating humans is the same as it is in mice!

Comment #227: Ms Kate  on  03/20  at  12:20 AM

BTW, Bluejohn is well known in dairying ... and does happen in humans. So much for “knowing science”.  Yeah, “knowing science” as a way to bully and shame.

Ms Kate on 03/19 at 08:15 PM

Well, then here’s a reasonable solution, science based - why don’t hospitals, pedes, LaLeche offer testing in that case?  I mean, as a dairy farm kid, you know they test for butterfat - so the test is there.  That would certianly put a mother’s mind at ease - a simple way to assure HER that it’s medically necessary, not a will power thing?

Comment #228: phylosopher  on  03/20  at  12:58 AM

To Opoponax and Ms Kate and Katie Joy:

Dairy calves don’t get to nurse.  Sometimes colostrum, but then weaned. Period.  Except on the tiny backyard farms.  Even there, they generally milk and then bottle feed.  At larger farms, they are genrally fed milk replacer (formula).  Most bull calves are raised to veal, drinking replacer only - white veal.  Some farms now do rose veal, so they are on grass or hay, too.  The heifers are kept or sold as replacements, but some are vealed, too, depending on the price of milk/feed.

Comment #229: phylosopher  on  03/20  at  01:12 AM

As an epidemiologist Ms. Kate, what’s your take on the Svanborg study?  I see she’s finally published,

http://lib.bioinfo.pl/auid:23466
though I’m not pretending to understand the technicals.

Would this mean that the Human Milk Bank/NCI is interested in it for more than fat content?

Comment #230: phylosopher  on  03/20  at  01:35 AM

Bravo to Amanda for blogging on this issue.

Although I probably won’t voice an opinion or make a point that has not already been expressed in this thread I did want to add some personal experience with breast feeding from the non-mother side.

Part one of my story begins when I volunteered at a clinic in Santa Fe many years ago while attending school because I was interested in public health. The only person who would take me on as an inexperienced volunteer was the Breast Feeding Consultant. I thought “Whoopee! Everyone knows breast milk is best. yadayadayada How pointless.” Girl was I wrong.
I volunteered under an amazing woman. We worked out of a clinic that saw mostly indigent families, immigrant women, young women and Hispanic women. She taught me that although breast milk is best it is certainly NOT easy..another way the medical field and society make women feel stupid and guilty..“It’s natural so it should be easy and you should be able to do it, no problem.” That was just many of the bullshit myths we had to deal with (my favorite was “A nursing mother shouldn’t get angry because it will sour her milk.) I’m not kidding on that one. It came up often. Obviously a part of the women-should-always-be-pleasing patriarchal standards for women.
The other way my mentor was amazing was that she NEVER guilt-tripped any woman that had chosen not to breast feed or did a formula/breast feed combo. Her attitude was “OK let me show you the best way to bottle feed” And yes there is a way that’s better because it helps cut down on the dreaded colicky baby.
My mentor taught me that we were a resource to women that wanted and needed our help. We were not there to pressure, marginalize, trivialize, patronize, guilt or judge anyone. Her attitude often led to women who were not patients at the clinic seeking out our help because we had received a recommendation from a patient. We also saw many women come back to us if they had a second child wanting help with breast feeding after receiving our help while bottle feeding her first.
I loved this volunteer experience. I loved going on home visits. Since no part of women’s health occurs in a vacuum we often found ourselves dealing with other issues that we were able to catch because we were in their homes i.e. PPD and domestic violence.

Part 2 of my story starts with me moving to another region of NM. I won’t say where but let’s just say I was a lot closer to Texas. I didn’t have time to volunteer so when a friend of mine asked me if I knew of a place where her friend could get help with breast feeding her newborn, I suggested La Leche League because I had good experiences with them in Santa Fe. This girl showed up at my door a few days later in tears. They had essentially made her feel like she was a bad mom who was handicapping her child because she had used formula. I helped her over the next few weeks. I also went to visit the local offices of La Leche League. I found white upper class and upper middle class women who had the resources to choose not only to exclusively breast feed their children but be stay at home moms. They were patronizing and unapologetically unsympathetic to the plight of other women. How did I react? Let’s just say I’m now persona non grata with this office of La Leche League.

Like many controversial subjects, breast feeding has led to extremists that leave women who want and need help without non-judgmental resources.

I would also like to mention that it was also the formula companies that jumped on the 1950’s brand of sexism band wagon to sell their formula which quickly became big business.

Comment #231: shakahi  on  03/20  at  02:30 AM

Too much going on here to quote and paste: When I said “Evolution is smarter than you are” Imeant that in most cases breastmilk was superior to formula as each of us is the descendant of billions of ancestors who nursed successfully, going even as far back as asvthose whiskered-lizard ancestors whovkept their hatchlings from drying out in the daylight heat by letting them lick her modified sweat glands tens of millions of years before dinosaurs walked the earth.

I’m not saying breast is best, especially considering all the social stuff going on after the home was displaced as the center of production; I just mean the breast has some evolutionary cred. Darwin has a possee, and Darwin is mostly in the breasts’ possee.

Comment #232: Bacopa  on  03/20  at  03:11 AM

Like many controversial subjects, breast feeding has led to extremists that leave women who want and need help without non-judgmental resources.

I usually lump the boobzealots in with the rest of the zealots: the militant vegans, the wingnuts ... every last one puts purity of essence and shame/blame control above the real goals at hand.  In fact, the goal itself - getting people to eat healthy diets, getting people to breastfeed - is totally secondary to the usefulness of children and health as a means to bully and shame people.

You don’t shut down factory farming in this country by getting a handful of people to turn vegan.  If you are serious about that goal, you concentrate on reducing demand as much as possible, even if it means most people are still eating some meat.  Ergo, you don’t get more women lactating by blaming and shaming and exaggerating the risks and rewards - you do it through support of their agency as decisionmakers about their families and infrastructural support of women’s family lives.

Comment #233: Ms Kate  on  03/20  at  10:06 AM

Phylosopher, I’m not going to stare at trees to make you happy.  I’m looking at the forest you haven’t noticed.

Comment #234: Ms Kate  on  03/20  at  10:07 AM

a simple way to assure HER that it’s medically necessary, not a will power thing?

Just when I thought you could not possibly get any more patronizing ...

Can I come into your home and criticise your parenting?  I’ve seen a lot of parents like you and I have also seen how their pedantic bullshit can destroy their children.  I’m sure I’d find a lot that was wrong and could tell you how irredemable even the most miniscule of your decisions will be for your child’s future.

I’m sure you would welcome the chance to become a more pure parent, given your willingness to use a sprinkling of science coupled with a whopping load of mysogyny to put these evil bottle-using women in their place.

Comment #235: Ms Kate  on  03/20  at  10:12 AM

Ms Kate, I’m interested in the breastmilk > yogurt thing, since it was something that I’ve seen references to elsewhere and would like to try; are there instructions somewhere, or do you normally make yogurt and just transferred the technique?

Comment #236: Adrienne  on  03/20  at  10:36 AM

Well, then here’s a reasonable solution, science based - why don’t hospitals, pedes, LaLeche offer testing in that case?  I mean, as a dairy farm kid, you know they test for butterfat - so the test is there.  That would certianly put a mother’s mind at ease - a simple way to assure HER that it’s medically necessary, not a will power thing?

If you’re kid’s not thriving on your breast milk, sure, it would be nice to be able to pinpoint the problem. And, I suppose, having a concise lab report to flash at other mothers so they know to shower you in pity rather than disapproval could be nice. You can be the One That Tried, God Bless, rather than a purposeful child abuser. That would be nice, wouldn’t it?

Comment #237: Katie Joy  on  03/20  at  10:37 AM

*your - early morning typos… blegh.

From what I’ve read on breast-feeding, it does generally have benefits for the child, but I don’t believe for one second that there’s a solid 7-point IQ difference between the breastfed and the bottlefed. I agree with Rosin’s analysis that a proper study would have to create two groups carefully (using either random selection or probabilistic equivalence) rather than assembling case studies for infants that were already being fed one way or another. That’s the only effective way to (largely) rule out a litany of other variables. Since it can’t be done, we’re left with case studies and population surveys. Case studies can provide some insight, but the first thing anyone should know about them is that they simply cannot be generalized. And when you study hundreds of infants living out in the real world with real mothers who have real problems and shortcomings and responsibilities, it becomes very difficult to isolate the baby’s source of nutrition from the thousands upon thousands of other things that have an impact on development.

We can probably agree that 100% organic fruit juice is better for young children than Sunny-D, but if you jump on me with a lecture about the untold damage I’m causing my child, my response is not going to be “Oh; now I know the error of my ways!” but rather, “WTF are you doing in my kitchen?”

Comment #238: Katie Joy  on  03/20  at  11:05 AM

You don’t shut down factory farming in this country by getting a handful of people to turn vegan.  If you are serious about that goal, you concentrate on reducing demand as much as possible, even if it means most people are still eating some meat.  Ergo, you don’t get more women lactating by blaming and shaming and exaggerating the risks and rewards - you do it through support of their agency as decisionmakers about their families and infrastructural support of women’s family lives.
Ms Kate on 03/20 at 08:06 AM

We also didn’t get people turning away from red meat until we blamed/shamed them with front page horror clips of factory farms.  And getting the science about the benefits/hazard in front of them.  And getting a real alternative out there (and I don’t mean tofu).  And that effort which I am heavily involved in, BTW, starts with those who have the education to understand and money and power and to take advantage of the alternative - to set expectations and aspirations.

When I see a woman like whiny Hannah not just making a decision for her family - which would be fine - but feeling it necessary to proselytize and seek public approval because of her insecurity, and then undermining the gains already made by writing a self-serving scientifically questionable article, then she’s a traitor, a quitter and gets called as such. 

Did you watch the video?  talk about judgmental - it loads very slowly so it’s a pain to watch, but there’s the part about “defiling” the bedroom with a breast pump, an almost comparison of nursing women to milch cows (which was the standard anti-breastfeeding mantra before the discoveries of nutrient benefits in breast milk) her stupidity in blaming the LaLeche founders for not citing the nutrient benefits when after all Hannah’s “reading of the science” it should be abundantly clear that they weren’t yet discovered; no one mentions the one-way street of formula, there’s an implication of my GAWD a year is forever, no one mentions the decreasing need of frequent nursing, there’s the same generalization fault that breastfeeding is ALWAYS/inherently painful.

Rosin is the popular girl who moved to the new school and got snubbed because she made a faux pas.  Instead of moving on, she remained bitter until she could get her own posse and found the anti-clique clique.

Comment #239: phylosopher  on  03/20  at  11:23 AM

phylosopher,


Believe me, I can throw down with you anytime about ways to promote and support breastfeeding, and I am ALL for PLANNED PARENTHOOD.  I just personally know several new moms who were quite thrown by the difficulty of BF in the beginning (not everyone’s experience I know), and they were extremely dedicated to seeing it succeed.  The breast is best message is getting out there, the GET SOME HELP AS SOON AS POSSIBLE WITH IT IF YOU HAVE PROBLEMS (which may include paying out of pocket for lactation consultant) is not.

Comment #240: martha  on  03/20  at  11:42 AM

We also didn’t get people turning away from red meat until we blamed/shamed them with front page horror clips of factory farms.

No, people have turned away from red meat because their physicians have shown them evidence that too much red meat isn’t healthy, and everybody knows somebody who died of a heart attack.

But thanks for playing ...

Comment #241: Ms Kate  on  03/20  at  11:51 AM

Adrienne, I just took a small spoon of the Stonyfield Farm yogurt (organic live culture style) we typically have around the house for the cultures, and then followed the yogurt making instructions.

One trick: you kind of have to really shake up or mix up the milk to get it as mixed as possible.

It was really just an experiment with some extra pumped milk I ended up with over a weekend, so I can’t say if it is easy to replicate.

Comment #242: Ms Kate  on  03/20  at  11:55 AM

and later watch her grandchildren being breastfed;

No, my sister-in-law doesn’t even breastfeed my niece.  My mom started feeling guilty before my niece was even born.  I agree that it’s part of a bigger culture of parenting guilt if you don’t do everything perfectly, because children are so delicate that they will be ruined by the tiniest mistake.  My point is that my brother and I both turned out successful, so I my mom should not feel any guilt about how she raised us, because she didn’t make us have a low IQ or become juvenile delinquents or have health problems.

I think one thing that gets left out of the breastfeeding debate is fathers.  I would feel really terrible if my future husband didn’t have that chance to bond with his own child.  Personally, I’d probably pump breastmilk for many other reasons, and that would give my kid’s father a chance to bond while feeding.  But actual breast feeding excludes the father completely, which is definitely not something that I want for my child.  Also, I have no qualms about supplementing breast milk with formula if my child needs it.  Of the breastfeeding mothers I’ve known, all of them have told me that their children are more satisfied with formula.  I’d rather give my kid formula than let them go hungry.

Comment #243: bananacat  on  03/20  at  11:57 AM

We can probably agree that 100% organic fruit juice is better for young children than Sunny-D, but if you jump on me with a lecture about the untold damage I’m causing my child, my response is not going to be “Oh; now I know the error of my ways!” but rather, “WTF are you doing in my kitchen?”

Katie Joy on 03/20 at 09:05 AM

Yes about the problems of case studies, but have rat comparisons shown differences?

Nuances (and context):  I’m not arguing that tact and diplomacy don’t have a place in established relationships.  If we’re in your kitchen and you serve Sunny D, there’s the hospitality/politeness thing which prevents a condemnation - can I help a start of internal “sunny d???” sorry, but I’m not always that in control- and then I go on to drink it and thank you for it - and the politeness rules say you ignore the startle.

It also means when you come to my house, I don’t go out and buy a bottle of sunny d - you get to drink real orange juice. And if you like it and express that like, I may tell you it’s organic, etc.

On the other hand, if you’ve always been an organic orange juice drinker and I’ve heard you tout the benefits and you one day serve sunny d and say that you’re thinking of switching to non-organic because the research on the benefits of organic aren’t 100% certain (which so many people still don’t understand is not, not, not posssible with inductive methods) discussion ensues about the rationality of the choice and the quality of the research and possible underlying causes- if we’re very good friends. 
 
If we’re just acquaintances, then we don’t have the discussion, I file away another bit of info in “the potential friend who shares similar values or not” files.  If “food choices” is high on my signifier of shared values list, it may greatly influence the judgment about whether spending more time with you is productive - if not, we won’t be seeing each other; in our time hassled society in a group setting, I can see it leading to the “wandering away” Rosin describes. 

Regarding your other post:

We’ve seen for decades, that doctors have told new moms, without cause - that their child NEEDS formula, etc.  The default reaction, esp. of nursing/ed moms, who’ve had/heard the experience is the doctor is doing a CYA.  So yeah, why not have science to back up?  Why not get knoweldge. Shutting up a critic is a side benefit.  But the main reason is personal knowledge - if it’s genetic I would imagine it’s something that should go on a daughter’s medical record and save her or other family the frustration and possible danger of even trying to breastfeed. 

If the medical community would make it standard practice to really help BrFing women, then the default reaction is gone.  They’re a long way from there yet.

Comment #244: phylosopher  on  03/20  at  12:02 PM

Rosin is the popular girl who moved to the new school and got snubbed because she made a faux pas.  Instead of moving on, she remained bitter until she could get her own posse and found the anti-clique clique.

Wow.. My irony meter just broke.

Comment #245: Adrienne  on  03/20  at  12:06 PM

No, people have turned away from red meat because their physicians have shown them evidence that too much red meat isn’t healthy, and everybody knows somebody who died of a heart attack.

But thanks for playing ...

Ms Kate on 03/20 at 09:51 AM

Sorry there Ms. Kate, but you are wrong.  I am in agri-business.  We do/we read the surveys on a regular basis that it’s the horrors of factory farming that makes people not turn away from meat -  so it’s my business to know why people will spend significantly more money purchasing non-factory-farmed meat:
In order of #1 reason why:

1) moral - can’t stand being complicit in/support the horrors of factory farming
2) health - cholesterol or chemicals infod
3) taste - (and this one seems to be gaining - humans are self-interested creatures aren’t we)
4) environment - the locavore who makes it a part of a low-carbon lifestyle

Comment #246: phylosopher  on  03/20  at  12:12 PM

BTW, thanks for the info, Ms Kate. I’ll have to try that, eventually, once the duckies start lactating..

Comment #247: Adrienne  on  03/20  at  12:16 PM

phylosopher,

Believe me, I can throw down with you anytime about ways to promote and support breastfeeding, and I am ALL for PLANNED PARENTHOOD.  I just personally know several new moms who were quite thrown by the difficulty of BF in the beginning (not everyone’s experience I know), and they were extremely dedicated to seeing it succeed.  The breast is best message is getting out there, the GET SOME HELP AS SOON AS POSSIBLE WITH IT IF YOU HAVE PROBLEMS (which may include paying out of pocket for lactation consultant) is not.

Martha on 03/20 at 09:42 AM

Now read catgirl’s post - the reality is that there’s no immediate feedback for nursing moms on if baby is hungry or crying for another reason.  So the supplementaiton starts which reduces production - which - oh shit you know the drill.
********

I just worry about the Rosin influence - face it, she’s written a watered down (and erroneously watered down seems to be the general consensus) version of the actual science.  The majority of Americans don’t read much, so what they’ll get is the local papers/pop mag watered down version of the Rosin’s watered down Atlantic article sans citations but with some such headline like “Breast Feeding Not Important to Baby”  or “Breastfeedgn or Bottle Feeidng - It’s a Choice.”  And it goes from something that is better for you and your child to a luxury lifestyle choice and we can kiss lactation rooms and longer maternity leaves bye-bye.  ANd the chance for women lower on the socio-economic ladder any opportunity of ever getting those benefits.

Guess how the mailroom personnel at the large firm I worked at got a lactation room/lux bathroom and longer maternity leave?  The $M vp got pregnant and breastfed and she argued it from the health benefit standpoint complete with reduced insurance charts.

Comment #248: phylosopher  on  03/20  at  12:28 PM

For anyone interested in looking at some trees:

http://discovermagazine.com/1999/jun/featcancer

This is the layman’s synopsis of the article posted for Ms Kate earlier.

Comment #249: phylosopher  on  03/20  at  12:31 PM

Typo correction/not removal:

We do/we read the surveys on a regular basis that it’s the horrors of factory farming that makes people turn away from meat

Comment #250: phylosopher  on  03/20  at  12:34 PM

Wow.. My irony meter just broke.

Um ... yeah - especially the part where it all devolves into polarized camps, neither having anything to do with any acutal, um, child rearing?

The whole women-as-mean-little-clique-girl meme is a tiresome piece of mysogyny.

BTW phylo - Surveys are only as representative as their sampling techniques, and it sounds like you have been sampling the foot traffic at Whole Foods.  Not surprising, given that you say you are in agribusiness but have this militant vegan attitude (even if you aren’t a militant vegan).

Comment #251: Ms Kate  on  03/20  at  12:35 PM

Oh, did I forget to mention how extremely client-driven (for good reasons and bad) the sampling is for those surveys of consumers?  Not exactly random-digit dialing of cross-sectional surveys designed to balance demographic and socioeconomic variables in a manner representative of a larger area (while avoiding the Modifyable Areal Unit Problem).

Comment #252: Ms Kate  on  03/20  at  12:41 PM

“If the medical community would make it standard practice to really help BrFing women, then the default reaction is gone.  They’re a long way from there yet. “

totally agree. I think the high rates of initiation (proof that the breast is message is out there) and then the giant drop off at three months and six shows that we are really failling in the support part of the deal, from the medical community to the work environment to the family….and of course, issues of class play heavily in this issue like any other….along the same lines as your company’s vp:
when I was involved in a breastfeeding coalition they talked about a texas representative’s wife whose lactaton consultant wasn’t covered by insurance….and now that senator’s interested in supporting state licensing of LC’s as a step to later get them covered…..

Comment #253: martha  on  03/20  at  12:58 PM

Oh, did I forget to mention how extremely client-driven (for good reasons and bad) the sampling is for those surveys of consumers?  Not exactly random-digit dialing of cross-sectional surveys designed to balance demographic and socioeconomic variables in a manner representative of a larger area (while avoiding the Modifyable Areal Unit Problem).
Ms Kate on 03/20 at 10:41 AM

Right, remind me to tell those scientists at the USDA which has been doing food consumption surveys for years, and those at the state level, and the scientists at the land-grant colleges they work with, and all those paraprofessionals who collected info that they don’t know what they’re doing. 

Since we’re now playing the “I can tell you all about your biases and prejudices by your posts on thread, you certainly won’t mind me inferring what your assumption that those who listed the following as reasons for “turning away from meat”  must have been the Whole Foods demographic says about you.
1) moral - can’t stand being complicit in/support the horrors of factory farming
2) health - cholesterol or chemicals in food
3) taste - (and this one seems to be gaining - humans are self-interested creatures aren’t we)
4) environment - the locavore who makes it a part of a low-carbon lifestyle

Poor people don’t have a conscience or poor people don’t care about the environment, or, poor people’s taste buds have been so ruined by their substandard fast food diet that they wouldn’t know fast food if it jumped up and bit them. 

See how that works?  Probably not you at all, but it sure is fun to play that game isn’t it?

We’d probably both agree that $$ and availability are a barrier to good food choices - your structural issue, and we could then go on to something productive about breaking down those barriers, but hey, this is more fun.

Comment #254: phylosopher  on  03/20  at  02:22 PM

totally agree. I think the high rates of initiation (proof that the breast is message is out there) and then the giant drop off at three months and six shows that we are really failing in the support part of the deal,
Martha on 03/20 at 10:58 AM

Yep.  Someone earlier said something about WIC now providing breast pumps, but it looks like it may be up to the states to supply manual or electric.  Some studies have linked the repetitive nature of manual pump use to various wrist (carpal tunnel and DeCorvayns (sp) to breast pumps.  And nursing bras and clothes can be $$ (let alone actually finding the stuff, though even Walmart used to stock some, it’s iffy) the government funding is only $21 per woman - doesn’t seem enough.  And for the working poor who don’t make the state cutoff…

Wonder if there’s a way we could actually make a difference, like oh… I dunno calling your own insurance company and asking if they cover it and working up the chain of command to push for it, or contacting the state senator/rep about it?

Comment #255: phylosopher  on  03/20  at  02:39 PM

I think one thing that gets left out of the breastfeeding debate is fathers.  I would feel really terrible if my future husband didn’t have that chance to bond with his own child.  ... actual breast feeding excludes the father completely

Sorry, this is nonsense, and unexamined sexism. There’s more to raising a baby than getting food down it’s gullet and plenty a co-parent who isn’t nursing can do.

They can: bathe the baby, change the baby’s diaper, rock the baby, nap with the baby, help the baby pick out clothes and get dressed, play piggy toes with the baby, build block castles for the baby to knock down and scream with delight over, help the baby feed the birds, help the baby count the cars that go by, go for a walk with the baby, pick flowers with the baby, “help” the baby fold the laundry or put away the dishes, blow bubbles with the baby, tickle the baby, introduce the baby to the “baby in the mirror”, water the garden with the baby, run through the sprinkler with the baby, take the baby to the park, or zoo, or grocery store, or library, fingerpaint with the baby, crawl under the table with the baby, throw cushions across the living room with the baby, play peekaboo with the baby, help the baby “call” Grandma on the phone, introduce baby to the neighbor’s friendly dog, read books to the baby, sing to the baby ...

This idea that co-parents are somehow excluded by breastfeeding? I firmly believe it’s rooted in sexist views of parenting that assume there’s very little important to do for a baby, and by God, if there IS anything important, the woman better not be the one doing it!

And by the way, if my husband had argued against my choice to breastfeed by complaining that he would feel left out? I’d have flipped my shit at him.

Comment #256: kristin  on  03/20  at  02:56 PM

I have to say something about supplementing with formula, too. I am 100% for it if a mixture of formula and breastmilk works for an individual baby and caretakers.

But the reason breastfeeding advocacy groups warm strongly against introducing formula into the mix isn’t ideological purity; it’s that the amount of milk your breasts produce is determined by the amount of milk your baby drinks from them. When a mother/baby pair introduces formula, sometimes it works well, but far more often it starts a vicious cycle where Mom produces less and less milk and baby drinks less and less formula.

When a mother wants to keep nursing her baby, too many times introducing formula upsets the balance and leads to the breastfeeding relationship being over sooner than she would like. And not enough people who advise introducing formula explain this.

It’s easy to say “Yup gonna breastfeed AND formula feed” but in practice? not so much. This is NOT NOT NOT to say that women have to choose their allegiance, or to say that if introducing formula is the best choice for a mother and baby they shouldn’t do it. But the effects that adding formula can have on the breastfeeding process are obviously underestimated and misunderstood, and a lot of posts in this thread are perfect examples.

Comment #257: kristin  on  03/20  at  03:03 PM

“Mom produces less and less milk and baby drinks less and less formula. “

Doh. Obviously that should have been “Mom produces less and less milk and baby drinks MORE AND MORE formula”, leading to weaning from the breast earlier than expected or desired.

Comment #258: kristin  on  03/20  at  03:06 PM

I just want to say that I agree with kristin on the idea that breastfeeding somehow excludes fathers. I mean, if that’s how you, as an individual, feel, and you want to pump just so the father can feed the baby, that’s your choice - some people find it works for them. But there is a lot more to infant care than feeding the baby and a lot that fathers can do to bond with their babies. I was pumping because I was at work, and my husband certainly gave plenty of bottles to our son, but I really don’t think that was as key factor in bonding. For me, pumping while I was at home just so my husband could feed him would have been making my life harder for no good reason. Pumping in between breast-feeding sessions can be tricky logistically if you have a kid that eats frequently, as I did, and it’s not exactly a fun way to pass the time. If I needed some time to myself, I would rather feed my kid myself when he’s hungry and then duck out for an hour or two by myself while they hung out together than go off and pump just so my husband could give him a bottle. Different strokes for different folks, YMMV, and all that. But it really bothers me when people make overly broad statements that a relationship in which the mother is breastfeeding is a relationship in which the mother is doing all the work and/or the father isn’t bonding with and parenting his child.

Comment #259: chingona  on  03/20  at  03:45 PM

okay, but the lactivists can’t play it both ways.  i.e. if father can bond with the baby without BF’ing, then BF’ing isn’t necessary for mom to bond either.

and i know that not all lactivists assert that BFing is necessary.  i’m just sayin…

Comment #260: trishka  on  03/20  at  04:55 PM

One more comment and I’m out.  Whatever we do to fight the injustices surrounding BF (advocating for more maternity leave, breaks to feed/pump at work, demanding partners pick up their share of the housework etc…) is different than shouting down critics like roslin and delivering (very paternalistically I might add) a one size fits all message to new mothers and refusing to acknowledge certain facts on the ground.  Is this tacitly supporting formula feeding? of course not. We should trust women enough to use their big girl brains to critically evaluate the evidence and make a very individualized decision. One of my major problems with a lot of public health was that it seemed to treat people like they were stupid, the goal was to get behavior change via any means necessary. 

also:
“Then other, logical decisions follow: she alone fed the child, so she naturally knows better how to comfort the child, so she is the better judge to pick a school for the child and the better nurse when the child is sick, and so on.”

this sounds like a huge and convenient cop out to me.

Comment #261: martha  on  03/20  at  05:06 PM

Martha, sounds like you and trishka and some others have never had to deal with a LLL dominated by the Attachment Parents - people like the woman I knew who was witholding solid food from her hungry and screaming one year old because the girl liked solid food “too much” and “she wasn’t nursing enough if she ate food” - meaning, the parent was forcing her to nurse.  The same girl, as a toddler, got fed up with the family bed and would find her own place when possible, and her parents were considering tying her down to the bed because she should be sleeping in the family bed! (never mind that the girl would climb out and go sleep on the couch pillows ...)

Fucking scary people.  These are the ones who decided that women should not only nurse or else because it was “natural”, but that it is also “natural” that women take care of all the home things and make any and every sacrifice possible because the children were the most important people around and any non-sacrifice was just selfish! (like getting teeth fixed and pump and dumping until the drugs wore off wasn’t acceptable - rotting tooth mom must wait and not be so selfish as to deny her infant a single meal!).

I nursed both boys up until they were walking and talking ... but I really couldn’t take this crowd!

Comment #262: Ms Kate  on  03/20  at  06:05 PM

Then other, logical decisions follow: she alone fed the child, so she naturally knows better how to comfort the child, so she is the better judge to pick a school for the child and the better nurse when the child is sick, and so on.

I’ve been scratching my head trying to figure out what that passage has to do with boobies versus bottles at all. It sounds more to me like a perfectly rational argument that the parent who’s the primary caretaker of a baby and small child probably knows more about what’s best for them.

Moms do something like 90% of the work raising the kids (because we live in the patriarchy) and fathers aren’t really expected to know their children at all. But (because we live in the patriarchy) they get all pissy if the little woman dares to express opinions related to the fact that she, you know, is the primary freakin’ caretaker and the one who actually knows the kid. So we have this cultural meme of the harping mother who won’t “let” the father do anything with the kid because he “can’t do it right” and so on.

Anyway, those lines read to me basically like patriarchal apologia inserted in the middle of an anti-breastfeeding screed. Trying to somehow tack them on to breastfeeding, and breastfeeding alone, is definitely a reach.

Comment #263: kristin  on  03/20  at  06:06 PM

Ms Kate, could you watch where you fling that “Attachment Parenting” label like it automatically means “irrational nutsos”? Thanks. I follow the basic ethos of Attchment Parenting—coslept with my kids until for years, carried my youngest in a sling everywhere, refuse to leave them if they’re the slightest bit uncomfortable about it, strive to meet their individual needs—and I’m a feminist and non-zealot.

Which is really what it comes down to—the people you’re discussing are zealots, and there are zealots of every stripe (and plenty of totally sane attachment parents).

Comment #264: kristin  on  03/20  at  06:09 PM

Yes about the problems of case studies, but have rat comparisons shown differences?

Conclusions can only be drawn from animal data VERY cautiously - especially with mice, rats, and birds (compared to primates, for example). Animal testing is usually used primarily to determine merit and ensure safety for human subjects. I’m not saying animal experiments are irrelevant - but like case studies, they’re not ideal.

Nuances (and context):  I’m not arguing that tact and diplomacy don’t have a place in established relationships.  If we’re in your kitchen and you serve Sunny D, there’s the hospitality/politeness thing which prevents a condemnation - can I help a start of internal “sunny d???” sorry, but I’m not always that in control- and then I go on to drink it and thank you for it - and the politeness rules say you ignore the startle.

It also means when you come to my house, I don’t go out and buy a bottle of sunny d - you get to drink real orange juice. And if you like it and express that like, I may tell you it’s organic, etc.

Jesus fucking Christ. You get startled by Sunny-D? Of all the offensive shit in the world, Sunny-D is beyond your realm of control? Do you faint at the sight of cigarettes or hard liquor?

I would probably ignore it the first time, sure, but by the third or fourth time you balked at the very least controversial aspects of my life, I’d probably ask you to dismount your high horse at the door or just not come back. Not everyone eats what you do, drinks what you do, and believes what you do, and most people can perceive an ego that can’t fit in their residence.

But I suppose you would probably opt out of visiting again anyhow and continue fighting the good fight for People Like Me to get food stamps or something so our kids are no longer destroyed by Sunny-D.

We’ve seen for decades, that doctors have told new moms, without cause - that their child NEEDS formula, etc.  The default reaction, esp. of nursing/ed moms, who’ve had/heard the experience is the doctor is doing a CYA.  So yeah, why not have science to back up?  Why not get knoweldge. Shutting up a critic is a side benefit.  But the main reason is personal knowledge - if it’s genetic I would imagine it’s something that should go on a daughter’s medical record and save her or other family the frustration and possible danger of even trying to breastfeed.

Doctors would sure as hell love it, I suppose. Send off every woman’s milk - which is, in all likelihood, just fine - and add another $100+ to the tab. Not that I’m against breast milk testing, but it just seems to me to be one of those things you wouldn’t bother with unless you noticed a problem first.

If the medical community would make it standard practice to really help BrFing women, then the default reaction is gone.  They’re a long way from there yet.

Please clarify - do you want the medical community to act by providing the very best for women, regardless of whether they choose to breastfeed or bottle feed, or to shame new mothers into breastfeeding like you do?

Comment #265: Katie Joy  on  03/20  at  09:46 PM

I’m pregnant with #4. The first 3 were bf for about 4-6 weeks and then exclusively bottlefed afterwards. I found bottle feeding much easier and less time consuming. Plus there’s the added advantage of the husband or others being able to take over and give me a break. I never got how people said they could just roll over in the middle of the night and pop a boob in. I don’t know if it’s their size, shape or what, but mine just don’t do that. Besides, it’s dark and I was never coordinated enough to get the babies to latch on without seeing what I’m doing. I always ended up going into the living room and turning on the light so I didn’t wake my husband.  Besides, my kids were primarily in their cribs, in their rooms, at the other end of the house after the first couple of weeks so I had to get up anyway.

That being said, Ashley here is what I recommend with formula to make it as easy on you as possible if you go that route:

1. Use powder, it’s the cheapest and you don’t have to refrigerate it.

2. At night before going to bed fill up 7 or 8 bottles with water.

3. Get 2-3 of those round containers with three compartments for the formula and fill each compartment with enough formula for one bottle. Trust me if you try scooping formula directly into the bottle you will invariably stop yourself at some point and wonder “is this scoop #3 or #4…f**k” and then you’ll have to dump it out and start over again. Scooping into the containers will save your sanity.

4. Whenever it’s time for a feeding, grab a bottle, pour in a serving of formula, shake and go. Takes just a few seconds and the formula is room temp so there’s no need for heating.

If you’re headed out all you have to do is grab a couple of bottles and a container of formula and pop them into your diaper bag. No refrigeration or worrying if it will go bad.

And for the record, all 3 of my kids are cute as a button, smart, funny and pretty well-adjusted if I do say so myself. And if they do become screwed-up it won’t be because of the formula I assure you.

Comment #266: vsatt  on  03/21  at  12:45 AM

I never got how people said they could just roll over in the middle of the night and pop a boob in. I don’t know if it’s their size, shape or what, but mine just don’t do that.

(Tone warning: I am not criticizing your decision, just sharing something amusing that your post reminded me of.) I’m one of the people who would roll over and pop a boob in, but I actually understand what you mean here. The first few months, I actually had a really hard time nursing lying on my side. I couldn’t ever seem to get it right, and I’d end up propped up on one elbow and my arm falling asleep or my neck cricking or something. And I would feel really frustrated because it seemed like it just shouldn’t be that hard to lie on your side next to the baby, and I could see women doing it in the pictures in the breastfeeding section of the baby book, but I just couldn’t get it. And then one night it clicked. Somehow I just managed to get in the right position, and ever after it worked. But once I got it, I could never recreate whatever it was I was doing before so I still don’t really understand what makes it work or not work. Anyway, it’s always been a bit baffling to me.

Comment #267: chingona  on  03/21  at  01:14 AM

Yeah, I had to practice before I could nurse at night too, and I’m pretty sure it “clicked” for me after the 4-6 week period. Before that I spent many wakeful nights and tired days.

Comment #268: kristin  on  03/21  at  02:30 AM

Kaite Joy, I really wanted to be done with this thread, but again, I will defend myself when people misrepresent or actually lie by being too fucking lazy to read previous posts and then taking mine out of context.

Regarding your 7:46 p.m. post.

1) No shit Sherlock, animal studies aren’t ideal, but the discussion was on how human studies are flawed because you can’t control for other variables, esp. in the case of IQ.  Ms. Kate brought it up,and since she seems to be knowledgeable about said studies and methodology, I asked her the question.

2) Another poster used the “sunny d” example.  I took up her example.  The entire point of that part of my post was to illustrate how we all subconsciously judge and discriminate where to spend our time and friendship making efforts.  And frankly you’re in relativistic denial if you think that it’s not something everyone does on a daily basis.  Look, how many of you here would really make continued overtures to fundie Christian, NASCAR, gun-toting, childspanking, WND reading, Republican, cheap beer swilling, Mountain Dew in the baby bottle, cigarette smoking, obese, new neighbors?  I’m not saying you run them off the block, or don’t say hi, or you don’t help them out in a crisis, but you don’t think of them as great caretakers for your kids on a regular basis either or set up a weekly dinner date.

Especially as adults making friends, we don’t learn those things about each other all at once. 

3) ANd you find something wrong with trying to make good food accessible to everyone? For recognizing that a lot of people are forced into suboptimal or even harmful food choices by economics?
WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?

Yeah, Michael Pollan has suggested that we start classifying items like soda pop as a non-food item so that rather than paying for people on food stamps to buy it, it becomes a luxury item.  And before you get on your “fucking high horse” as he points out, we already disallow the purchase of beer and wine on food stamps and there is much more nutritional value in a beer than a pop. 

No, I didn’t suggest we test every mom’s milk-  you read it that way.  My intention was “when there is a problem,” the current pede advice is FORMULA.  My suggestion was “problem? test, then decide based on result.”

What I mean is that the medical community sets up unnecessary barriers.  Case in point - let’s say a mom has to stay in hospital longer or return to hospital for some procedure - nothing life threatening, say repair of an epidural caused headache.  Instead of admitting mom and baby as a unit, mom gets separated from baby - increasing postpartum blues/despression, disallowing nursing, making pumping necessary, etc. 

Secondarily, they are too quick to CYA (even over the phone) “oh, the baby’s dehydrated - go to formula or add glucose water” - they don’t explain - don’t tell you what to check for as signs of dehydration, and most seem not to know how decreased nursing means less production, lactation consultants are optional, electric pump rental isn’t covered by insurance, but they allow all that fucking formula shit as a freebie in the front door of the hospital.  As a CNM homebirth midwife of my acquaintance said, the worst thing to do is to keep that can of formula as a backup in the cabinet.  At 3 a.m. and sleep deprived (and no, this isn’t a slam on “lady brains”- no one can think clearly under those circumstances) the mom grabs the formula - gives it to kid who stops crying -even though it may just be coincidental, and then the next night, since there wasn’t enough increased nursing, mom isn’t keeping up with baby’s growth spurt if it was a hunger thing, and now she’s not produced enough again- and it’s back to the formula.  Said CNM does not take clients who are not planning to breastfeed and will toss any formula in house unless there’s a verified medical necessity.

I want the medical community to really get behind breastfeeding as the best - right now, it’s just a lip service slogan, because their actions actually undermine it and performatively they favor formula.  They need to have, from a medical standpoint that BrF really is the default option and that formula is there as a backup.         

Oh, and one more advantage to breastmilk - it doesn’t stain like formula does when baby drools, spits up and just plain urps it all over your shoulder.

Comment #269: phylosopher  on  03/21  at  12:16 PM

Ashley:

Vsatt chose to be organized about bottle feeding but one can be equally organized and solve the problems of breastfeeding IF they occur, as Chingona and Kristin pointed out.

Purchase a co-sleeper.  While some parents are comfortable co-sleeping in bed, some, like me would have been up half the night worrying I’d role over on the kid. It’s a safe, IMO, compromise.  Some serve double duty as a playpen later, so it needn’t be an extra expense.

Purchase a nightlight.

If necessary fix up a separate bed for hubby in a different room for the first couple days or weeks while you get the hang of night nursing.

We are technology (and formula and bottles are a technology) biased in this country.  We’re also used to externalizing a lot of the costs of stuff - that spit up advantage I put in my earlier post?  add the cost of ruined clothes into the cost of formula - seriously, that stuff does not come out. 

You can always switch to formula should you really have a problem with BrF, but it is a one way street, you cannot switch back from formula.

Best of luck, whichever you choose.


@ Vsatt,
Your choice is yours. And I’m sure your children are cute as a button, and I hope you and your family do well in the short and long run.  But, holding up your children as edited anecdotal evidence is much less valid than any case studies.  and absolutely no evidence that they will not have problems that the formula set the stage for later in life.  Studies give probability - and we simply don’t know the root causes of many conditions, illnesses, and even life habits yet - you have so far won your bet.

And darn me for taking the long view again.  The choices we make for our own families also set the stage for family traditions - there’s are many studies that show one of the main factors of influence on whether or not women breastfeed is what their mothers did; we have a default bias for continuing family traditions. and associated (subconscious) guilt when we break them.  Even us smart, independent, intellectual non-conformists. You’ve also set the stage for your daughters and granddaughters to bottlefeed - if that’s your choice, fine, but just pointing out the long view.

Comment #270: phylosopher  on  03/21  at  12:50 PM

Ms Kate, could you watch where you fling that “Attachment Parenting” label like it automatically means “irrational nutsos”? Thanks. I follow the basic ethos of Attchment Parenting—coslept with my kids until for years, carried my youngest in a sling everywhere, refuse to leave them if they’re the slightest bit uncomfortable about it, strive to meet their individual needs—and I’m a feminist and non-zealot.

Me too ... but I got really tired of being told that I wasn’t doing it right because women and men and caves and never and absolute and always ...

Maybe you had sane attachment parents around you - in Massachusetts in 1996, they seemed to be in extremely short supply and completely bought-in to extreme essentialism, while having lost sight of the idea of meeting basic needs of the infant.  Some sort of theory and system had taken over ... orthodoxy had set in.

Comment #271: Ms Kate  on  03/21  at  04:52 PM

My understanding after reading a lot on the subject is that starting in the postwar era formula genuinely was seen as the way to go, for everybody.  I suppose there was probably a small minority of the very educated, or the very wealthy, or the daring bohemian set (or some combination of all three) who trended towards breastfeeding at that time.

Where my parents lived in the late 60s, it was quite the opposite.  That might have been because of the rural and agrarian communities they lived in hadn’t gotten the “be modern” memo, it was certainly because their own mothers breast fed, it may have been the expense of formula.  For my own mother, failing at breastfeeding was a serious economic issue and a social/family issue - everyone on both sides of the family breast fed their kids, as did most of the women who went to the doctor my mother went to.

Comment #272: Ms Kate  on  03/21  at  05:00 PM

Phylospher, how many of those IQ studies you are so fond of (or is that study ...) controlled for the led level in the family’s drinking water?

It is a truly huge confounder in this sort of study - particularly since lead in drinking water was a huge issue in highly populous areas with highly aged water infrastructure up until the 1980s, but vastly less of an issue with formula feeding now that lead water supply pipes are much less prevalent.

Comment #273: Ms Kate  on  03/21  at  05:19 PM

Back up a minute there Ms Kate.  Kindly read back through my posts and cite the ones where I’m touting IQ raising as the primary reason for BrF.  If anything, what I believe I said about IQ is that
1) a 2-3 or 3-4 or 7-10 pt average can mean a big difference or none at all for any individual child.

2) in some cases, higher IQ kids have a need for higher levels of specific nutrients - and one study showed that breast milk changed to accommodate that need.    And no, I don’t have it, it’s been years since I’ve needed to know such specifics.

If I’m not mistaken, weren’t there actually programs to encourage people to use “infant bottled water” or distilled in those areas?  Now that you mention it, I have a memory of an aunt? family friend? using such bottled water to mix formula because of it or something else in their water supply.  Anyway, that’s why I asked about the rat studies where that would be controlled for.

Comment #274: phylosopher  on  03/21  at  08:01 PM

Phylo, I remember warnings to have water tested regardless of the feeding method, as the kids will eventually drink tap water.  We had a visiting nurse come when my older son was three days old and she took a water sample back with her.

When I was working with a children’s lead poisoning project, there was also a strong correlation between lead in water (usually from supply pipes from the street and inside the house) and poverty levels.  These same residences typically had a fair amount of leaded paint as well.  That means a double whammy of lead for bottle fed children, and was one reason the hospitals were pushing to get new moms to nurse.  Local programs were not interested in bottled water - they were using court orders to force landlords and property owners to get rid of the lead.

That’s why I bring it up: we know there is a strong relationship between early lead exposure and lifelong neurocognitive deficits, and we know that bottle feeding increases the risks of lead exposure.  It might just be enough to account for the recorded difference - and be totally irrelevant for those who do not live in such conditions.

Comment #275: Ms Kate  on  03/21  at  08:43 PM

Warning: posting while under the influence of a great glass of carmeniere and a grassfed t-bone.
The following may be more pedantic or incoherent or riddled with typos than usual.  Please ask for clarification.

OK, I’m going to attach a load of links for you at the end - peruse if you like.  And aside - damn you wink I’m supposed to be grading tonight or my students will lynch me on Monday.  That said, it would take a team of scientists to collate and decipher this mess - no way Rosin could do it. 

Yes, it seems that the consensus is that even if there are high lead levels in the home, they don’t necessarily transfer to breastmilk - though that can depend on the mothers calcium intake.  The two most cited studies seem to be the Belarus one, and Geoff Der’s.  I can’t find (and may not be able to decipher if I could get them , and my university link is down tonight) the originals to see if they controlled for lead.  But these studies were done in the late ‘90’s and early this century, so perhaps that would negate some, but Belarus????. 

The one I found interesting was the Fads2 genetic link.  Seems between 70 and 90% of the population has it, and if you don’t, even if you get breast milk, the inability to process it means no benefit (but,  there’s the non nutritional link and the other immunity links wich may help - some effects aren’t of breast milk, but of infections causing bad hearing.)   

Then there’s the DHA ARA link, but if you use synthetic (formula) you end up with melamine contamination. 
Then there’s the PBDE link, too.  Possibly more in breastmilk. 
There’s even one that links Alzheimers to breastfeeding.

The preponderance of the layman translations of what I’ve read in the past hour point to breast milk still better and even better than better if you have certain genes (what my molecular biologist friend) calls a cascade effect. 

I am not sure how we even begin to do the testing in humans on this?????? But it seems the Scandinavian countries are testing breastmilk for toxins, but those are seasonally affected.  That was why I asked about the rat studies where we can at least get a start at control groups. .

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-na-stemcell111007,0,6549198.story

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/06/health/research/06ment.html?fta=y

http://www.ehponline.org/docs/2002/110-6/ss.html
scroll down to breastmilk biomarker on this one

http://www.niehs.nih.gov/research/supported/sep/2004/milk.cfm

Off to play Pokemom with the formerly breastfed kidlet.

have a good evening.

Comment #276: phylosopher  on  03/21  at  10:47 PM
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