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We’re losing the rhetorical battle of global warming

Drop what you’re doing and read Peter Daou’s impassioned response to the news that nearly half of Americans now have bought into the idea that global warming is an exaggerated and quite possibly made up problem.  That’s the sort of thing that really makes you want to throw your hands up in the air and give up, but of course, we can’t do that.  Pro-science people feeling overwhelmed by the problem is half the reason denialists are getting an edge. 

It’s time to take a serious look at why anti-science arguments are gaining an edge in our society and think very hard about what it’s going to take to fight back.  I think part of the problem is that pro-science people feel that the twin pillars of evidence and moral responsibility to not ruin the only planet we have is argument enough, and we just keep running on this hamster wheel of pointing to the evidence and thinking that settles it.  Why on earth are conservatives winning this rhetorical battle?  Peter:

Green-bashers have had a banner year—they found a couple of openings, some hacked emails, a few scientists being flawed humans rather than data-processing automatons, and they went ballistic. With funding from big oil, they’ve engaged in an all-out assault on science and reason, and this assault has been tepidly rebutted, if at all. The rightwing message machine has been in high gear, blasting out misinformation and pseudo-science, cynically sowing doubt.

He then goes on to talk about the baffling effectiveness of beating up on Al Gore as an “argument” against global warming.  It’s so fucking disturbed.  Every fucking Republican I know melts into giggles at the very sound of Gore’s name.  I tend to take it personally, too, not because I’m in love with Al Gore or anything, but because the “joke” is that he’s a smarty-pants that has the audacity to educate himself thoroughly on topics and then share what he knows with the world.  And as someone who makes her living doing something similar, I find that incredibly offensive.  I remember that he was a punchline even before he was Vice President, probably because the nascent right wing media of the 80s already had him pegged as a threat, and they trained their followbots to hate Gore.  I’ve made it a minor life mission to swiftly correct anyone who makes jokes about inventing the internet.  “Al Gore is a nerd” doesn’t disprove fucking global warming. 

But this all does show exactly how we’ve come to this place.  The global warming denialist industry intuitively (or perhaps not intuitively—-I’m sure they’ve spent their money on collecting thorough cognitive research on how to persuade) understands that playing on people’s prejudices tends to be a lot more effective than a straightforward facts-based argument.  And the Gore thing isn’t logical, but it plays on people’s childish desire to resent someone for being better than they are—-oooooh, Gore thinks he’s so smart and noble, just because he cares about the planet!  Well, we’ll show him.  We’ll take a big ol’ crap on this planet to show him who’s boss!  We hope that people get over this by the time they reach the 3rd grade, but apparently not. 

It’s arguable, however, that the Gore thing is only a minor issue in selling denialism to the general public.  Where the right wing is really making inroads is convincing people they know better than the scientists, because they have “common sense”.  Americans eat that shit up.  It’s not just when it comes to global warming, either.  Americans enjoy feeling like they’re smarter than the people who invented vaccines, smarter than the scientists that put a man on the moon, and smart enough to think that random herbal crap you picked up off the shelf will work better than a thoroughly tested medication.*  Now they get to feel smarter than those number-crunching climate scientists. 


Of course, you have to be engaging in some bone-deep stupidity to think, “Ha ha, those stupid scientists spend all their time crunching numbers, but they didn’t take the time to notice that it’s snowing.  I know more than them by looking out my window!”  Perhaps you can believe this if you forget that scientists have homes they go to after work, and so do in fact have the same exposure to the weather that non-scientists enjoy.  The levels of denial you have to go through to get yourself to a point where you can be that stupid must be astounding. 

The other part of this is plain old fear of change.  I loved Peter’s piece, but if we’re really serious about winning the rhetorical battle—-and if we really need to view this as all-out war over the fate of the planet, which it is—-we need to start being as thoughtful about language and working with the audience where they’re at, like conservatives do.  And so I object to Peter’s use of the term “sacrifice” to describe what needs to happen to fix this problem.  Environmental changes often have all sorts of unexpected benefits that make them seem less scary after the fact than you might have initially thought.  I see no problem in highlighting this fact.  In fact, a lot of what I do in my brand new book about liberal politics (see how I did that?) is that cultural changes that need to occur to clean up the environment can be sold as beneficial in and of themselves.  For instance, we should really not talk about urban density so much as walkable neighborhoods. There’s a minor movement in some liberal yuppie circles to look at the upside of living in smaller spaces, for instance.  Reading one issue of Ready Made on how to live in a small space will charm you so much you’ll demand 300 less square feet in your apartment before you hit the last page.  We need more of that, even if it seems a little crass and distasteful at times.

Fear of change is the problem we really need to tackle, because above all other things, it’s what lays the groundwork for people to be willing to hear these other arguments from denialists.  How to make people not only not fear change, but to embrace it?  Part of what we need to do is really create a vision of what the world looks like after we get the environmentalist policy wish list.  And that means all the details, not just vague visions of cleaner air and water.  Will it be a world of smaller homes and more walkable neighborhoods?  What does a society that doesn’t have much use for cars look like?  Are there places where they’ve made these changes, so we can get a better picture of what we’re going to get?  (Rhetorical question: I know that there are.)  After we have the details down, we need to start selling this shit out of this vision, using every tool we’ve got.  The pitch has to be positive and upbeat.  No talk of sacrifice, no guilt trips. 

For instance, IBM made this ad about congestion pricing in Stockholm, and it’s incredibly effective:

That’s how you sell environmentalism.  Make it sexy.  And dangle some goodies out that you can’t get without the policy changes.  Most people are going to have a highly emotional reaction to the image of the pre- and post-policy traffic pictures, showing how the traffic jams completely disappeared after the policy was implemented.  Being able to get out of traffic jams will make people salivate.  In an ideal world, people would vote for these reforms because it’ the right thing to do.  But in our world, they’ll vote for it if you can promise them immediate improvements to their daily existence. 

*OT, but my favorite example of how stupid this gets is the proliferation of expensive herbal acne medications marketed as “willow extract”, which is presumably a “natural” alternative to mundane OTC acne medications made by Neutrogena or Johnson and Johnson.  But the active ingredient in those mundane acne medications is salicylic acid.  You know, willow extract.  I’m surprised I’ve never seen “willow extract” sold as a “natural” alternative to aspirin, which is also made of salicylic acid.  Huh, maybe that’s how I should get rich.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 05:59 PM • (93) Comments

I think a couple (out of several) reasons why the “anti-climate change” arguments seem to be gaining traction are:

1.  The long-range nature of climate change makes it difficult for people to see cause and effect relationships.

2.  More cynically, doing something about climate change (either to mitigate it or adapt to its effects) implies necessary changes in lifestyle that a lot of folks just don’t want to contemplate.  There are positive sides to that, as you point out, but when choosing between the devil they know and the devil they don’t know, well….

Comment #1: Linnaeus  on  03/11  at  07:33 PM

About living in a smaller space—I’d like a little more room than the 440 sq ft studio we had to move into after bankruptcy, but the good thing is, it’s amazingly convenient. And the energy needs are quite low.

Comment #2: Samantha Vimes  on  03/11  at  07:34 PM

The problem I always have is that they dubbed it “Global Warming” instead of Climate Change”. Now every fucking time it snows every smart ass thinks they’re being funny when they say “where’s that global warming everyone’s been talking about?”

Also, Al Gore is smart. That’s why he is so hated by the right.

Comment #3: Mark  on  03/11  at  07:41 PM

Bush Sr called Gore “Ozone Man.” He was a far out kook.

I hear people who are not politically aware but generally liberal say, “People used to say the ozone hole was a catastrophe but everything is fine so it was probably exaggerated.”

Listening to science and organizing the international community against CFCs worked. But a genuinely bad outcome was avoided, and it was only thanks to the hard work of liberals, who were ridiculed by conservatives every step of the way. Yet even our successes somehow end up as failures.

I also wonder what people plan on doing once fossil fuels run out. They are obviously non-renewable. What will we do when there is nothing left? Or is the plan to just suck the planet dry and basically just throw our kids to the lions. Fuck everybody else as long as we got ours.

Comment #4: bay of arizona  on  03/11  at  07:41 PM

I also wonder what people plan on doing once fossil fuels run out. They are obviously non-renewable. What will we do when there is nothing left? Or is the plan to just suck the planet dry and basically just throw our kids to the lions. Fuck everybody else as long as we got ours.

I think folks just don’t think about it, or they figure that there will be some technological development that will deal with the problem.  Fossil fuels - especially petroleum - have advantages that other energy sources don’t, so people expecting a seamless transition will be in for a bit of a shock.

Comment #5: Linnaeus  on  03/11  at  07:44 PM

Of course, you have to be engaging in some bone-deep stupidity to think, “Ha ha, those stupid scientists spend all their time crunching numbers, but they didn’t take the time to notice that it’s snowing.  I know more than them by looking out my window!” Perhaps you can believe this if you forget that scientists have homes they go to after work, and so do in fact have the same exposure to the weather that non-scientists enjoy.  The levels of denial you have to go through to get yourself to a point where you can be that stupid must be astounding.

In a lot of cases they aren’t so much saying “scientists are stupid” but “scientists have a hidden agenda and they think we’re so stupid we won’t notice that what they’re saying is patently false.”

The proposed hidden agendas never seem to make much sense to me.  Maybe I’ve evolved past fifth grade.

These scientists are just big losers and want to lord it over us and make us live in smaller spaces and drive smaller cars and not eat huge steaks because they could never achieve what we high livers can achieve.  JEALOUS!

Or they are rich but they don’t like other people to be rich so they’re artificially impoverishing them.  Hypocrite Al Gore has a big house and FLIES ON PLANES TO GIVE TALKS ABOUT GLOBAL WARMING he’s destroying the ozone layer but won’t let us OMG UNFAIR.

They want to be big and famous and pretend to save the world but we can see they’re not wearing a superhero costume but long johns instead and the flap is down look at his naked BUTT ha ha ha.

Comment #6: oldfeminist  on  03/11  at  07:47 PM

bay of arizona:  I believe the conservative backup plan is “then Jesus comes.”

Comment #7: damnedyankee  on  03/11  at  07:49 PM

I hear people who are not politically aware but generally liberal say, “People used to say the ozone hole was a catastrophe but everything is fine so it was probably exaggerated.”

Listening to science and organizing the international community against CFCs worked.

That’s the problem, though—in America, you don’t get any points for preventing a disaster, only for cleaning up after it.  If you prevent thousands of kids from dying by, say, having a critical mass of people vaccinate their kids against the measles, we don’t see that deaths were prevented.  All we see is that scientists warned us about these scary “viruses” but no one I know is getting the measles, so it must all have been scare tactics.

Sucky and poorly planned as the bank bailout was, it prevented us from diving into a full-blown depression, but people don’t see that.  If the bad thing doesn’t happen, then it was never going to happen anyway so the steps you took to prevent it were useless.

Comment #8: Mnemosyne  on  03/11  at  07:50 PM

this handy guide is worth revisiting.

Comment #9: jamie d  on  03/11  at  07:58 PM

Sucky and poorly planned as the bank bailout was, it prevented us from diving into a full-blown depression, but people don’t see that.

THANK YOU! I’m amazed by the number of people, especially on the Left, who don’t see it. Look up the excellent profile of Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner in the current New Yorker.

As for climate change, when I’m sitting in a nursing home sweating my ass off and the person next to me complains, I’m going to ask who they voted for in 2000.

Comment #10: Bitter Scribe  on  03/11  at  08:00 PM

I can tell you that in Quebec global warming isn’t seen as some crazy invention. Anybody who’s 20 years-old or older remembers a time when you could expect snow in November and sometimes in late October, and now we might see it late November or mid-December. We remember a time when Spring happened in May and when I didn’t have to start removing layers in early March.

Around here the meme is “How stupid can Americans be not to notice blatant climate change happening around them instead of having to listen to climate scientists telling them the numbers?” For us, ‘common sense’ is pretty clear, something is deeply wrong with the climate. The fuckers in the oil industry have to come up with cooked up numbers to even get into the debate, instead of being able to coast by on appealing to ‘common sense’.

Seriously, is it because in the South the climate is hot year long anyway and climate change is mostly felt in colder climes? So that the whole JesusLand of America just happens to randomly fall in the one spot on the planet where it’s not clear to anyone with a brain that things are a-changin’? (And even then, how many tornados and hurricanes are they getting now compared to a dozen years ago anyway? Are they fucking stupid?)

Comment #11: BlackBloc  on  03/11  at  08:00 PM

I think folks just don’t think about it, or they figure that there will be some technological development that will deal with the problem.

One of the under-discussed aspects of the denialist propaganda blitz is that it’s effectively distracted people from the reality that fossil fuels are non-renewable.  Right wing media has done a great job of selling “peak oil” as an outlandish conspiracy theory and further proof liberals are off their rocker.  As their audiences hoot along, laughing at the crazy liberals, they’re absorbing the underlying argument of this, which is that oil cannot run out.  I don’t think they consciously think about how they don’t realize oil can and will run out, but on an emotional level, they believe it.

Comment #12: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/11  at  08:02 PM

“That’s the problem, though—in America, you don’t get any points for preventing a disaster, only for cleaning up after it.”

...for another example, see Y2K.  Us IT folk were up to our necks fixing code and applying patches and a lot of costly grief was avoided.  So the conventional “wisdom” now is that Y2K was just a joke foisted on the public by evil/greedy computer scientists to promote their Hidden Agenda, whatever that might be…

In America today, being wrong is rewarded, but being right is an unforgivable sin…

Comment #13: MikeEss  on  03/11  at  08:03 PM

Sucky and poorly planned as the bank bailout was, it prevented us from diving into a full-blown depression, but people don’t see that.

I am fully aware of what was averted with the bank bailout, it doesn’t change the fact that the banks’ own policies landed them in a position to be able to fuck up the economy if nobody bailed em out, which means it was basically extortion.

“Gee, nice economy you got there. Would be a shame if something would… happen… to it.”

Comment #14: BlackBloc  on  03/11  at  08:04 PM

“As for climate change, when I’m sitting in a nursing home sweating my ass off and the person next to me complains, I’m going to ask who they voted for in 2000.”

...and their snappy comeback will be (as it has been for the last 10-years), “Well, Gore would have been worse.”

Once somebody has joined the Koolaid-Drinking Teabagging Wingnuts, you can checkout any time you like (and obviously many have), but you can never leave…

Comment #15: MikeEss  on  03/11  at  08:07 PM

The bank bailout did “work” but it was hardly the only solution that could have worked.

But it was the solution that happened to line the pockets of the people responsible for getting us in the mess in the first place.

Comment #16: bay of arizona  on  03/11  at  08:09 PM

In a lot of cases they aren’t so much saying “scientists are stupid” but “scientists have a hidden agenda and they think we’re so stupid we won’t notice that what they’re saying is patently false.”

Fair enough.  I should have noted that instead of going for the easy joke.

What bothers me to my core—-and I need to write a separate post about this—-is that global warming denialism (like most denialism) is, at its base, a conspiracy theory.  In order to be a denier, you have to believe a conspiracy theory, basically that all the scientists in all the world are conspiring to pull the wool over your eyes…..for what is always hazy.  It’s not even a good conspiracy theory!  Most conspiracy theories explain the motivation for the supposed conspiracy much better.

Comment #17: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/11  at  08:12 PM

Why do people take the word of a career politician, Al Gore, or a political PR man, Daou, as the gospel truth on Global warming?  Both are practiced at the art of deception no?

As opposed to scrupulously honest people like James Inhoufe?

Comment #18: Bitter Scribe  on  03/11  at  08:18 PM

.....for what is always hazy.

So that they can promote their radical leftist agenda, of course.  Scientists mad up global warming so that they could tear down the capitalist system.  That’s why the good honest folks at chevrontexacobp are trying to stop them… they’re just trying to make an honest living, and those dirty commies just want to rob them, and all the other good honest red blooded Real Americans, of their precious bodily fluids.

Comment #19: jamie d  on  03/11  at  08:21 PM

Mnemosyne-

Yup, if you ask most people about Y2K, they’ll call it a hoax and a giant waste of money even though the fact that it was so seamless was the result of a large number of computer geeks working long hours of overtime making sure the important computers were all Y2K compliant to prevent the bad stuff from happening.

Regarding the post itself:

Indeed, I think part of it is also that stupid people are very attracted to the easy way to look smart and that often involves variations on Websterism. You’ll often see someone taking a name literally or applying the dictionary definition of a problem in order to “prove” that those namby-pamby high-faluting hippies don’t know what they’re talking about. “If it’s global warming, why is there winter”, “they call it homophobia, I don’t fear them, I just hate them and want them to die”, “the dictionary says racism is thinking one race is better than the other, therefore blacks who have pride in their ethnicity are as bad as the Klan and are the real racists”.

These approaches appeal to dumb people because it’s a convenient shortcut. It doesn’t require much thought and allows one to think they were able to see something that people who actually take the time to educate themselves on the topic haven’t without having to spend all that time learning stuff and being gay and possibly satanic.

I think it’s because there’s a mental satisfaction that comes with thinking of oneself as smarter than everyone around them. It makes you worth something, more valuable than the schlubs who surround you and for people literally desperate for something to justify their existence and meaning (given their whole lives are based on carefully grooming futile resentments and actively making other people’s lives worse) that can be a very tempting prospect.

I think you’re also right that we can be selling a lot more directly to the greedy interests of dumb middle-class tools. They should care about not destroying the planet, but they may care about being able to see the stars again, being able to open the windows on a commute or even less traffic on the commute, or the idea of seeing genuine green again. I was definitely struck when I moved to Denmark for my Master’s how amazing it felt to be completely surrounded by green even deep in the cities.

Unfortunately one place I think we’re screwed is that unlike many places, we have a large motivated class who are currently getting most of their life meaning from “getting one over on the hippies”, so we’ve got people wholly willing to destroy themselves if they think it’ll make a hippie somewhere cry.

Well, that and the fact that an overwhelming number of people here believe in the Rapture (so destroying the world is a good thing because the world is coming to an end any day anyways) or generic Prosperity Gospel (we don’t need to pay attention to anything like resources because God will naturally provide for the deserving) or who are otherwise just running out the clock (who cares if the polar ice caps will melt in the next 40 years, I’ll be dead by then).

I’m not entirely sure how we get through to these groups.

Comment #20: Cerberus  on  03/11  at  08:23 PM

Ooooooh, we have a wack job on hand!  Knute, can you explain to me why you believe that the vast majority of scientists, environmentalists, and basically most of the world is conspiring to push what you consider a lie about global warming?  I just don’t understand the motivations of myself and Al Gore to “lie” about this, so please tell me why we and all the scientists are conspiring against you.

Comment #21: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/11  at  08:24 PM

What’s marketed as a natural remedy is completely based upon fashion.

I needed some gauze pads for a wound this last week where I had to change them every few hours.  Apparently, Johnson and Johnson are using rayon/polyester for their pads.  Which is fine; except that it doesn’t wick along the fibers, only into the spaces in between.  So for my use, it was merely piling the blood up into one spot on the pad, rather than pulling it away from the wound along the pad.

Guess what?  All the competitors in CVS, Safeway, Raley’s were using the same material to compete on the same price point.  To the point that Walgreen’s has three options:  All with the same material! 

I hate Walgreen’s for this.  They often have two to five brands with the same formula, but none of the other formulas for the same problem.  For instance, they carry no salicylic acid hair conditioners, for instance; all of their scalp treatments are based on tar - which doesn’t work on psoriasis.  Even though they carry the brands that have a salicylic version!  Or at Raley’s, all of their first aid or rash creams have aloe in them.  I know I’m ultra-rare in this, but aloe in wounds can burn me.  Grr. 

Five options, all the same.  Bah.  False choices, that’s all it is.

Comment #22: Crissa  on  03/11  at  08:26 PM

Unfortunately one place I think we’re screwed is that unlike many places, we have a large motivated class who are currently getting most of their life meaning from “getting one over on the hippies”, so we’ve got people wholly willing to destroy themselves if they think it’ll make a hippie somewhere cry.

This explains much of the last 10 years.

Comment #23: bay of arizona  on  03/11  at  08:33 PM

Amanda @18

Pretty much. And it occurs with every one of them on every iteration of it. I guess it’s because of our poor science education so everyone imagines science as working kind of like Christianity where everyone is working off one basic book and just reiterating what’s inside it. I think people can’t easily conceptualize the fact that every one of those universities has hundreds of scientists and academics inside of it, each an individual person doing individual research and the “what science knows” are the accumulations of thousands upon thousands of tests.

One would have an easier time herding cats to perform an underwater ballet in Swahili regarding how mice, humans, and fish are their true lord and masters than getting the vast majority of the scientific community to continually support a worldwide conspiracy for decades on end.

But damned if I know how to get “true believers” to see that, probably because of the “easy path to looking smart” I mentioned in my other comment. A giant conspiracy that only they and a handful of friends can see through makes them wise and perceptive, smarter than their compatriots and thus meaningful and important in a world of easily-led sheep. Giving that up is like voluntarily asking to be made normal and meaningless again. They’d rather break away with reality than face that.

See the resident wingnut @17 for illustration. Thousands upon thousands of climate scientists generating data for over 40 decades all showing the same trends of “we’re fuckeditude” as a result of years of blood, sweat, and tears and careful research? Can’t be acknowledged lest he lose his special uniqueness. Better to consider the entity of “science” as one big conspiracy run out of some HQ in Al Gore’s den.

Comment #24: Cerberus  on  03/11  at  08:36 PM

not really:

“The levels of denial you have to go through to get yourself to a point where you can be that stupid must be astounding.”

i know this is considered “elitest”, but it must be said: most of the people who take global warming denial seriously are not very bright to begin with. they are the same people who don’t realize medicare and social security are government run programs.  they don’t read books (heck, many of them are barely functionally illiterate), “american idol” and “survivor” are about as deep as they get for tv. they adore sarah palin because she takes pride in her ignorance.

the bottom line is that denial comes easily to most of them, because they are incredibly stupid to begin with.

Comment #25: cpinva  on  03/11  at  08:36 PM

cpinva-

They also don’t really think too deeply about why things are. They are essentially emotionally toddlers about a large number of things. Food magically appears in grocery stores, items they want to buy magically appear in stores, fully formed with no waste because there’s little visible pollution in the suburbs and services I need are just free and given to them because they’re special or they earned it and everything else is unneeded fluff that the government is wasting their personal money on.

They only pay attention to what occurs in their personal sphere and rarely if ever consider how things get to be the way they are.

In short, it’s not so much that they’re dumb. They are dumb, but being dumb or ignorant is not a crime nor necessarily a character flaw in and of itself.

No, what they suffer from is far worse and far more toxic. A complete lack of intellectual curiosity and often a fear and loathing of those who are intellectually curious.

And that’s the real problem. Dumbness, ignorance can be educated. The illiterate can be taught to read. Get their attention and they will slowly cure these problems. But the intellectually incurious have no desire to improve themselves and will often resist any attempt to do so.

Comment #26: Cerberus  on  03/11  at  08:45 PM

Honestly?  I’m tempted to tell the wingnuts a few things about scientists:

—If effete British homosexual mathematicians and Polish refugee mathematicians hadn’t started fiddling with numbers and vacuum tubes in an old English country house WE’D ALL BE SPEAKING GERMAN.

—If ivory-tower physicists with funny names and foreign accents hadn’t started playing with atoms in the New Mexico desert YOUR DADDY WOULD’VE BEEN SHIPPED OUT TO KYOTO AND YOU MIGHT NEVER HAVE BEEN BORN.  (I’m really hesitant about this one, because I’m a fan of the Szilard Petition, but even the Szilard petition called for the bomb to be used - on a deserted island, with notice to the Japanese high command so they could see it.  But in the battle for the planet, I’m willing to risk it.)

—If it weren’t for a hippie liberal Jew who figured out the polio vaccine YOU MIGHT BE STUCK IN AN IRON LUNG.  That means no driving cars, no hunting, no fishing, no nights out at the bar, no sexytimes.

And finally:
—If it wasn’t for some egghead liberal biochemists YOU WOULDN’T BE ABLE TO HAVE A BONER.

Scientists have saved your ass over and over again.  YOU OWE THEM SOME GODDAMN RESPECT.

Comment #27: Maureen  on  03/11  at  08:47 PM

The I should be they in the last post. Sorry for that.

Comment #28: Cerberus  on  03/11  at  08:47 PM

Maureen @28

Oh yeah, this this this. Fruity faggy worldwide conspiracy scientists are the reason most every one of them is alive today. If they have ever gone to a hospital, taken some antibiotics, taken flu medications, received a vaccine, used indoor plumbing, driven a car or work in an industry outside maybe mining or woodcutting, they owe their lives and their livelihoods to technology.

To them, it was just natural that they drive a car to their tech job return home to their sewer including suburbs protected by a large-scale electronically equipped military and police force where they eat foods grown halfway across the country by someone else cooked quickly in modern stoves on plates well-sanitized by modern chemicals and take a couple of pills to stave off that cold.

Scientists were responsible for all of that. Faggy “dumb” scientists working cramped hours in a lab slowly built up the technology that allowed each part of that to be put together and mass-produced or mass-industrialized.

Emotional toddlers. Unable to see the how and too intellectually incurious to care.

Comment #29: Cerberus  on  03/11  at  08:55 PM

We’ve got a wingnut GCC denier around here (SLO, CA) who has a letter in the paper every week or so in which he claims the reason for the faulty science is that the National Weather Service is placing its “temperature sensors” (thermometers) on paved asphalt and concrete surfaces at the local university and near a major city street.  The proximity of the concrete is heating up the thermometers!!  He went and looked for himself!!  And this information, gathered independently by a local gadfly, refutes decades of peer-reviewed scientific research.  Now don’t all you smarty-pants feel like dummies.

Comment #30: Hornet  on  03/11  at  08:58 PM

Global warming denialists are not all stupid.  Though they’re statistically less likely to hold higher degrees, many of them are quite educated, and even among the ones who aren’t, they may have a high degree of personal or professional competence.

The single biggest reason that global denialism and rejection of science altogether is the theory of evolution.  My ex-church prided it itself on being intellectual: college town, high number of professors, lawyers, doctors, engineers, grad students, basically the cream of the professional and intellectual classes*, and they all fiercely opposed the idea of evolution.  The problem is that when you see people constantly espousing an idea you reject, you must assume that they are acting in ignorance or bad faith.  Liberals (like me) aren’t immune to this either.

Evolution has such a strong basis in fact and such widespread acceptance in the scientific community that it’s tough to make the case that all scientists are stupid.  Instead, you have to assume that scientists want to make a fool out of you because they hate you and your religion.  Once you’ve made that leap for evolution, it’s pretty trivial to think the same of global warming.

* well, the dregs of the cream, anyway.

Comment #31: Carl Rennie  on  03/11  at  09:14 PM

Broadcast journalists are trained to assume the audience has no more than an 8th grade reading comprehension level. Advertising creatives (like the ones who made that IBM ad) set an even lower bar and aim for the lizard brain.

I can’t bring myself to engage people that way in a debate, especially given that they bring along an 8-year-old’s anti-intellectual petulance and sense of entitlement to match the willful ignorance and proud stupidity (thanks, Knuterockne, for showing up to illustrate my point).

I think a couple (out of several) reasons why the “anti-climate change” arguments seem to be gaining traction are:

1.  The long-range nature of climate change makes it difficult for people to see cause and effect relationships.

Conservatives like Knute tend to be sequential thinkers—linear thinking (i.e. basic cause and effect) is a stretch for them, and the sort of systematic mindset that a complex topic like climate change demands ... well, you might as well ask a dog to recite Shakespeare.

2.  More cynically, doing something about climate change (either to mitigate it or adapt to its effects) implies necessary changes in lifestyle that a lot of folks just don’t want to contemplate.

The sequential thinker is a fatalist—he’ll keep working against his own interests until things go pear-shaped, and then shrug and say it’s “God’s will” or, more likely, whingeing “why didn’t the libruls warn me?”

They run into the same bloody problem with their health insurance. And goodness knows, on the economic front we warned these idiots about the long-term consequences of insanity like repealing Glass-Steagal, but as usual they were happy to go along with extreme free market ideology. Even when things went in the crapper, they didn’t start complaining until 21 January, 2009.

Sucky and poorly planned as the bank bailout was, it prevented us from diving into a full-blown depression, but people don’t see that.

It was sucky and poorly planned because Geithner, Bernanke and Paulson and co. were operating under unnecessary duress of their own Chicago School creation, and because there was already a great deal of regulatory capture of the sort that allowed Goldman-Sachs and Citibank to shake down the taxpayer and eliminate competitors.

Certainly the bailout pulled us back right at the brink, but at the brink is where we remain today. We’re not done cleaning up, and in the process we’re making no provision for preventing the next disaster—no changes to corporate governance, no acknowledgment that “too big to fail” = “too big, period,” no serious re-appraisal of derivatives and the value of their inputs, no regulation of the bond-rating agencies. And as bad as it is that morons like Knuterockne see that inaction as a good thing, it’s even more shameful that the African-American “socialist” they loathe basically agrees with them.

All that to say, I find it more useful seeking solutions to a problem with smart people than convincing selfish, myopic fools that the problem exists at all.

Comment #32: Gracchus.  on  03/11  at  09:15 PM

Not to be a jerk, but asprin is actually acetylsalicylic acid… although willow bark does have some analgesic effect.

Comment #33: James K. Polk, Esq.  on  03/11  at  09:16 PM

I am fully aware of what was averted with the bank bailout, it doesn’t change the fact that the banks’ own policies landed them in a position to be able to fuck up the economy if nobody bailed em out, which means it was basically extortion.

But when people hear you say that you’re pissed off because the banks got themselves into the situation and then blackmailed the government, they hear, “We didn’t need the bailout at all,” because that’s what they want to hear.  And then they go around and tell all of their friends and neighbors that the bailout wasn’t necessary and it was all a scam by the banks.  And then I end up getting into really stupid arguments with people who claim that the government just wanted an excuse to hand gobs of money over to the banks and there was never a crisis at all.

Of course it was extortion, but that doesn’t mean that the consequences of calling their bluff and letting the banks fail wouldn’t have been a fucking disaster for the entire world economy.  But because disaster was averted, now people blame the bailout for causing the problem and say there shouldn’t have been any bailout at all because the problem didn’t really exist.

Comment #34: Mnemosyne  on  03/11  at  09:19 PM

Additionally, accepting global warming acknowledges that scientists have some measure of authority over you.  Conservative Christian society has a lot of hang-ups about authority—specifically, that authority is God-given and the churches are really the only rightful wielders of it—and they view government as legitimate to the extent that it derives its authority from what they call “Judeo-Christian morals”.

Americans are pretty anti-authority anyway.  One of the very earliest American flags bore the motto “Dont tread on me”, and we’ve bristled at people’s attempts to restrict our individuality and freedom ever since*.  When scientists say “our lifestyle is going to destroy the planet”, what people hear is “we want to force you to live a certain way”.  That sends up red flags for people all over the place.  Besides, American conservatism is founded on the idea that working together for the common good is sissy shit, anyway.

Comment #35: Carl Rennie  on  03/11  at  09:21 PM

“And this information, gathered independently by a local gadfly, refutes decades of peer-reviewed scientific research.  Now don’t all you smarty-pants feel like dummies.”

Them scientishuns just don’t have any common sense, like a real working man has.  Now, if you got them all out of their fancy-ass cushy jobs and out of them nince clean lab coats and put ‘em into some real clothes and made ‘em really work for once in there lives, maybe they’d pick up some sense.  If they still want to do seance, maybe they can do something usefull like figuer out how those dam libruls are sapping and impurofying our bodilly flooids, or how to make moore oil…

Comment #36: MikeEss  on  03/11  at  09:22 PM

I have to go with Cerberus @27 on this one.

It’s no coincidence that kids who’ve had a lot of experience with math and science trust science more.  The more one is exposed to it, the more obvious it becomes that the world works the say science says it does.  Not only that, but the way science works allows any scientist to be able to replicate the work done and demonstrate that Y happens when you do X.  Or, when it doesn’t, to examine why, and then have a third scientist valide their observations, until the concensus of many, many people studying this topic comes down on one side or the other, or a third for that matter.  Science is probably the most democratic system of them all this way.

As a bonus, when people are taught how to engage in their world through study, hypothesis and the seeking of evidence, it gives them the ability to ask the anti-GW crowd why exactly they’ve come to their conclusions.

I think PR is important, but I think it’s kind of like pitting natural willow bark painkiller against Bayer.  It doesn’t actually explain to people why they want aspirin.  But if it came down to a bet for what factor has the best ability to cure ignorance-fueled conspiracy theories, I’d put all my money on education.

Comment #37: Caelan Aegana  on  03/11  at  09:25 PM

The problem is that when you see people constantly espousing an idea you reject, you must assume that they are acting in ignorance or bad faith.  Liberals (like me) aren’t immune to this either.

Agreed. However, it’s gotten to the point where conservatives are quite open about acting in bad faith (“The best thing about espousing [wingnut position] is that it drives liberals crazy”) and are proud of their ignorance and anti-intellectualism. I don’t need to assume the bad faith and ignorance of trolls like Knuterockne or Rush Limbaugh when I can take them at their word.

Liberals lose the rhetorical battle because we’re playing by different rules, with different goals. The members of your ex-church didn’t argue against the Theory of Evolution, they just opposed it because (to use your apt description) “scientists want to make a fool out of you because they hate you and your religion.”

Compare to the liberal opposition to Creationism in all its guises, which starts with empirical observation and reality-based arguments, not “Xtians want to make a fool out of you because they hate you and your science.” We don’t start at that point because it’s difficult for us to believe that someone would be so self-defeating as to hate science.

Comment #38: Gracchus.  on  03/11  at  09:27 PM

Real all natural people just drink willow-bark tea!

And, what you said, in general.  You don’t convince people of anything by looking down on them, or being perceived to be.

Comment #39: lonespark  on  03/11  at  09:27 PM

But when people hear you say that you’re pissed off because the banks got themselves into the situation and then blackmailed the government, they hear, “We didn’t need the bailout at all,” because that’s what they want to hear.

This will sound Straussian, but if they’re going to twist the truth to their narrow and preconceived notions, it’s better not to tell them the truth at all. These are irrational people.

Comment #40: Gracchus.  on  03/11  at  09:30 PM

This will sound Straussian, but if they’re going to twist the truth to their narrow and preconceived notions, it’s better not to tell them the truth at all. These are irrational people.

If they were right-wingers, I could dismiss them out of hand.  When I get this kind of irrationality and denial from the left, it kinda freaks me out because I can’t figure out how the hell we’re ever going to get a rational discourse if both sides are going straight to their preconceived notions.

Comment #41: Mnemosyne  on  03/11  at  09:33 PM

Gracchus @39

We don’t start at that point because it’s difficult for us to believe that someone would be so self-defeating as to hate science.

Hating science isn’t self-defeating.  As long as a critical mass believe in scientific advancement, enough to keep the science funded, everybody benefits.  That’s one of the real problems scientists face.  People who hate biology get good medicine and good food; people who hate environmentalism get clean(er) air and water.  Until the anti-science people tip into the majority, they get to be freeloaders on the system.

Disbelieving in global warming lets you drive a bigger car, heat a bigger house, travel by air, commute further for work and feel good about all these things instead of feeling guilty.  That’s a net positive benefit to denying global warming, and a net negative for those who don’t.  Especially if there are enough people coping with climate change to keep the freeloaders comfortable.

Comment #42: Carl Rennie  on  03/11  at  09:34 PM

You don’t convince people of anything by looking down on them, or being perceived to be.

They’re gonna perceive it no matter what. One of Al Gore’s accomplishments in Inconvenient Truth is often characterised as the creation of one of the most accessible and easy-to-understand Powerpoint presentations on a complex topic ever. He’s not looking down on anyone in that lecture—not even lecturing—and yet look at Knute’s reaction. Should we spin our wheels fighting rhetorical battles with Know-Nothings?

Comment #43: Gracchus.  on  03/11  at  09:36 PM

Hating science isn’t self-defeating.  As long as a critical mass believe in scientific advancement, enough to keep the science funded, everybody benefits.  That’s one of the real problems scientists face.  People who hate biology get good medicine and good food; people who hate environmentalism get clean(er) air and water.  Until the anti-science people tip into the majority, they get to be freeloaders on the system.

Understood, although I meant self-defeating in the liberal, long-term sense of the word, not in terms of personal economies. My question would be, beyond their self-destructive actions should the freeloaders have a say at all in a discussion of solutions?

Comment #44: Gracchus.  on  03/11  at  09:40 PM

When I get this kind of irrationality and denial from the left, it kinda freaks me out because I can’t figure out how the hell we’re ever going to get a rational discourse if both sides are going straight to their preconceived notions.

Whether the person is a left-wing fantisist or a right-wing one, my point is that you’re not going to get a rational discourse—ideological fantasists don’t believe in discourse.

Did Knuterockne attack Al Gore’s contentions? No, he went straight to a combination of ad hominem and conspiracy theory. Are you expecting rational discourse with Knuterockne? Ever?

Comment #45: Gracchus.  on  03/11  at  09:44 PM

But if it came down to a bet for what factor has the best ability to cure ignorance-fueled conspiracy theories, I’d put all my money on education.

I would, too. Federal and state goverments seem to prefer putting the bulk of their money on other bets.

Comment #46: Gracchus.  on  03/11  at  09:48 PM

@4: Or remember Y2K? People were so worried about it, and so companies paid lots and lots of money to hire a lot of computer programmers to go through and fix the bugs related to it. It worked, but everyone went, “Huh, those programmers must have been making stuff up”.

Comment #47: truth is life  on  03/11  at  09:49 PM

The other side to having a message that can reach people, if that is indeed possible, is actually exposing them to it.  That would take a non-trivial bit of capital.

Comment #48: D  on  03/11  at  09:51 PM

Of course it was extortion, but that doesn’t mean that the consequences of calling their bluff and letting the banks fail wouldn’t have been a fucking disaster for the entire world economy.  But because disaster was averted, now people blame the bailout for causing the problem and say there shouldn’t have been any bailout at all because the problem didn’t really exist.

Again, the people who blame the bailout for causing the problem are sequential thinkers for whom post hoc arguments (especially when “hoc” involves the election of an African-American as President) are rhetorical meat and drink instead of logical fallacies. The moment you start debating these people, you’ve lost the rhetorical battle.

Comment #49: Gracchus.  on  03/11  at  09:54 PM

Did Knuterockne attack Al Gore’s contentions? No, he went straight to a combination of ad hominem and conspiracy theory. Are you expecting rational discourse with Knuterockne? Ever?

In a democracy, you can’t just give up on people.  In a dictatorship, liberals won’t be the ones dictating.  In pure anarchy, the nerds are generally going to get screwed.  So you have to change minds.

To be successful, you do have to persuade them, but rational discourse is not going to be persuasive, which I think is the point.  Not because these people are irrational, but because they perceive your rational arguments are hostile.  So to win the argument, you have to approach it differently, which I think is what Amanda is getting at.

Lib: FACT
Con: FEAR
Lib: FACT
Con: FEAR

will never convince people.

Lib: EMOTIONAL APPEAL
Con: FEAR
Lib: HOPE

might work better.  It’s worth a shot, anyway.

Comment #50: Carl Rennie  on  03/11  at  09:57 PM

I am fully aware of what was averted with the bank bailout,

s / averted / delayed

The problem was “fixed” in the same way that my crutches have “fixed” the problems with my spinal cord.  In another few years, maybe five or six, it’ll come back.  And worse.

Hey, but maybe the (likely) Republican President of the time will actually put the good of the American people before the short-term profits of big and connected corporations like Goldman Sachs.  And maybe when I get home tonight, I’ll be greeted at the door by Scarlett Johansson in a negligee.

Comment #51: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  03/11  at  10:47 PM

Its an odd world. The oil companies know all about climate change and peak oil. They aren’t stupid. They have just decided they are in the oil business and not the energy business so come hell or high water, probably both, they are going to sell it and we are going to buy it. Its like how newspapers decided they in the newspaper business and not the journalism business (not counting those who have decided they are in the entertainment business) or how back in the day the railroad companies decided they were in the railroad business rather than the transportation one. The oil companies will have to die off or become shadows of themselves its just a question of what the body count will be by the time it happens.

Comment #52: pharmakos  on  03/11  at  10:48 PM

i know this is considered “elitest”, but it must be said: most of the people who take global warming denial seriously are not very bright to begin with. they are the same people who don’t realize medicare and social security are government run programs.  they don’t read books (heck, many of them are barely functionally illiterate), “american idol” and “survivor” are about as deep as they get for tv. they adore sarah palin because she takes pride in her ignorance.

At this point, it may be worth considering a proposal by Heinlein.  If you choose to step into a voting booth, you’re given a short IQ test.  If you pass, you vote.  If you don’t, you never step out again…

Comment #53: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  03/11  at  10:54 PM

I think that global-warming denialism—and anti-environmentalism in general—is one of the sacrifices that people make to be modern “conservatives”. Because f*ck, it’s against even their own short-term economic interests. If you can have the same damn thing (light, heat, transportation) for less money as well as fewer carbon emissions, then what but some kind of religious fervor would cause you to spend more? So I think one way to get to these people is to use their own market rhetoric. “I would have been hit really hard by oil prices, but I went solar.” Sure, the diehards will feel stupid and resent you, but they’re going to do that anyway.

Comment #54: paul  on  03/11  at  11:06 PM

Americans eat that shit up.

I agree, and am beginning to kinda suspect that a nation so completely dominated by vain, immature, whiny, and willfully ignorant citizens is very possibly a nation in irreversible decline.

Not to mention that I’d choose one good dinner conversation with Al Gore over ever setting foot in Mississippi again to see my extended—and not coincidentally, Republican—family there.  Hell, he lives about five miles from me and I’d just about kill to work for him*, less because of my dedication to environmentalism (although IME there’s something to be said for advocacy orgs having some entirely-sympathetic-but-not-singleminded people on staff) than because every local mutual acquaintance that I find smart and decent and interesting thinks the world of him. 

Side note (and then I’m going to go back & read the previous comments): My brother, being a lifelong computer geek, has a history of getting into heated arguments with snotty little wingnut punks over the Gore/internet bit.  Luckily, he’s 6’5” on top of being able to name names and cite experts, although now that he’s in Austin instead of MS it’s less of an issue.

*and why not?- I’m a nonprofit manager, proficient writer, political junkie, die-hard liberal, & exclusive Mac user!

Comment #55: latts  on  03/11  at  11:38 PM

In a democracy, you can’t just give up on people.

Fortunately we’re not a democracy, we’re a republic. This reduces the number of morons one worries about not giving up on (or at least counter-balancing) to a relative handful.

To be successful, you do have to persuade them, but rational discourse is not going to be persuasive, which I think is the point.  Not because these people are irrational, but because they perceive your rational arguments are hostile.

If a person perceives a rational argument as hostile by dint of its being rational, I’m perfectly comfortable assuming that person is irrational.

Lib: EMOTIONAL APPEAL
Con: FEAR
Lib: HOPE

might work better.  It’s worth a shot, anyway.

We see how well “hope” has worked with them. Granted, it was the empty slogan kind of “hope,” coming from a man whose colour they feared, but after a year it hasn’t really worked.

I do think there are avenues with good potential, but that potential first makes a frank assessment of the target audience. For example, I found this video lecture by a game design professor interesting. It’s 30 minutes long, so I’ll summarise the relevant point: he discussed how the dashboard of one of the new hybrid cars incorporates a virtual plant, which thrives and blossoms if the driver uses the car efficiently. And sure enough, drivers do so, if only to make the virtual plant healthy.

The professor then goes on to extrapolate ad absurdum how similar reward systems might work to achieve similar ends in promoting good behaviours: brush your teeth, 10 pts.; get to work on time 20 pts.; on time 5 days in a row, 50 bonus pts. You get the idea. Sounds truly awful—who would willingly submit to such a system?

One asks this, but then a few days later one reads this article about the hugely popular Facebook game, “Farmville.” It’s a game that’s about as dreary in content and play as the one described above, but it’s coupled with a social network and a strong element of pressure from friends (as opposed to political adversaries).

Now, back to the assessment of conservatives like our volunteer subject, Knuterockne: people who are easily gulled into working against their own interests—even those they recognise; people whose entire self-worth is tied up in empty games of social status and privilege; sequential who don’t truly think about cause and effect and prefer to “be in them moment”; people readily distracted from plot (or lack thereof) by shiny cgi FX; authority worshippers who’d feel right at home in a Skinner Box as long as pressing the lever dispensed a conservative-friendly treat.

So my model:

Lib: APPEAL TO DESIRE TO PLAY A GAME
Con: OOOH, PURTY! I"M GONNA PLAY AND GET ALL MY FRIENDS TO SO I CAN BEAT THEM!
Lib: QUIET SMILE, HIDING HOPE

That virtual plant/Farmville model, I would argue, is worth a shot if we’d like to see the Know-Nothings change their behaviour without debating with them (a pointless task), without presenting them with facts and inconvenient truths they’re not capable of processing, and without nagging and guilting them. And the dirty feeling I get from all that elitist manipulation is, I’ll admit, offset by consideration of the interesting, socially positive and potentially lucrative business opportunities arising therefrom.

Comment #56: Gracchus.  on  03/11  at  11:40 PM

When scientists say “our lifestyle is going to destroy the planet”, what people hear is “we want to force you to live a certain way”.

Comment #36: Carl Rennie on 03/11 at 07:21 PM

“For instance, we should really not talk about urban density so much as walkable neighborhoods.”

Absolutely. The cattle must not be frightened before they are slaughtered! It will be very hard to coerce the masses into the correct lifestyle if they know what it will really be like.

Comment #57: ayutokamina  on  03/11  at  11:42 PM

The oil companies know all about climate change and peak oil. They aren’t stupid. They have just decided they are in the oil business and not the energy business so come hell or high water, probably both, they are going to sell it and we are going to buy it.

See, I don’t mind arguing climate change with this type of denialist, any more than I’d mind arguing odds and sleight of hand with a 3-Card Monte dealer—the proviso being, there are no marks around. Then it’s good fun, because we’re all adults here and all understand our natures even as we pretend not to. But bring the sucker into the discussion, and it stops being a bull session.

Comment #58: Gracchus.  on  03/11  at  11:42 PM

Absolutely. The cattle must not be frightened before they are slaughtered! It will be very hard to coerce the masses into the correct lifestyle if they know what it will really be like.

And there you see the “thoughtful (read cynical) conservative’s” response, Carl—as far as ayuto ‘s concerned (at least in speaking to the Knutes of the world), you might as well be on board with the manipulative game scheme I like, because we’re both evil liberals. Fortunately, by the time a guy like ayuto gets around to exposing Liberal Farmville for the manipulative grind that it is, dullards like Knute are already addicted and would rather keep playing with their shiny toy.

Comment #59: Gracchus.  on  03/11  at  11:50 PM

They don’t want that kind of discussion. Its like how the healthcare insurance companies don’t want to talk about the fact that they don’t want to provide individual policies because they make nothing on them but absolutely hate the idea of a public option because it will kill profits in employer health insurance. They know its inevitable but damned if they are going to admit it. As Don Draper put it, “If you don’t like the conversation change it”. Hence those goddamn ads they have on every five to ten minutes on CNN.

Comment #60: pharmakos  on  03/12  at  12:05 AM

#58 is a really good example of conservative projection.  Because he or she wants to coerce us into a lifestyle he or she feels is morally upright, it’s assumed we want to do the same.  I don’t really want hardcore conservatives moving into city centers; I just want to prevent millions of people from dying of thirst, hunger or drowning more.  I could give a shit about how people live their lives as long as they don’t kill us all to do it.

Comment #61: Carl Rennie  on  03/12  at  12:08 AM

So to win the argument, you have to approach it differently, which I think is what Amanda is getting at.

Basically, but to get more specific, I don’t think that you can win over wingnuts.  They’re just stupid assholes who enjoy being wrong because it so clearly upsets liberals.  They’ll sell out the planet to piss off a hippie.  Moral depravity may not be some natural inclination, but after years of being subjected to—-willingly in most cases—-morally depraved right wing propaganda, they’ve grown accustomed to the idea that their sadism is delightful and charming.

But the strategy of sowing doubt that wingnuts have concocted is to appeal to the large mass of Americans who aren’t that plugged in and who are put off by politics.  By sowing doubt, they give those people an “out”.  They can convince them to prioritize the fear of change.

I do think hope can win out, though.  But it has to be presented.  And right now, I don’t think enough liberals are doing the hard work of really imagining what the world we want looks like, and so the polluted, cynical world we’ve got seems safer.

Comment #62: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/12  at  12:18 AM

Gracchus @57: That’s a really good idea.  The nice thing is that you can combine a lot of different, upbeat approaches.  Conservatives do that with fear/hate approaches.  Some people respond to the fear of change argument and some people respond to the hate the hippies argument and some people respond to the ego-stroking “you’re smarter than scientists” argument.  So the right throws them out.  Wider net, more fish.

Comment #63: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/12  at  12:35 AM

I was just told that those links were terrible, because they’re from a guy who worked with Al Gore for the past thirty years.

*sigh*

Comment #64: Crissa  on  03/12  at  12:35 AM

ayuto, most people aren’t anti-social creeps like yourself, and so the idea of having neighbors they have to be nice to doesn’t make them feel like they’re being slaughtered. Frankly, even the cleanest society will have room to keep anti-social freaks like yourself away from everyone.  Feel free to go live far away from decent people; everyone wins that way.

Comment #65: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/12  at  12:38 AM

Out of typical right-wing projection, they will accuse us of fear-mongering on global warming when they are the ones fear-mongering.  Fear of change.

Comment #66: Albert Cirrus  on  03/12  at  12:47 AM

Climate change denialism is a lifestyle/cultural marker. It shows your “part of the club” of other right wingers and let’s them know you’re “one of them.” as such, it’s a tough nut to crack when trying to get through to them (hint: you can’t). You may as well tell them to give up golf or hunting or budweiser or something.

They’re gonna perceive it [that you’re looking down on them]  no matter what

Exactly. “You don’t like hunting or shooting? Well then why not? it must be because you think you’re better than me!”

To a degree, the people responsible for messaging when it comes to climate change don’t have time for this social games crap. And while I appreciate that, we need to find someone who does. We can’t let the country and the world go to shit just because the media wants to tell a dumb narrative and the conservatives have a social dominance compulsion on the issue.

Comment #67: Tyro  on  03/12  at  01:12 AM

I think that there are deniers out there because of the way environmentalism is perceived.

First of all, in order for change we are going to have to all pay taxes. People have such negative connotations in regards to paying taxes. Let’s face it! We all do. People just roll their eyes and immediately deny the possibility because they might actually have to give up some of their money to make the world a better place for EVERYONE (and not just themselves).

Secondly, Environmentalism’s emphasis is on limits, scarcity. We are constantly told, “no, don’t do that, don’t buy that, don’t throw that away…” This makes people feel bad, and in our society we already constantly feel bad about ourselves as it is. Compare this to Capitalism- “buy it, touch it, do it, feel it”. So, environmentalism is saying ‘no’ while capitalism is saying ‘yes’. Put in more simple terms, the kids always like it better when their parents tell them yes, rather than no!

Environmentalism needs to be seen as a vision of wealth, possibilities and hope!

Social movements are always talking about changing the world to make it better place. People usually think change is scary and that it takes a long time to achieve goals. People need to see that the world is right here, right now! That being said, I know that there are a lot of people out there that do want these changes to happen, but the bigger issue is that we need to change the system on which our capitalist engine is running! We need to decouple energy production from economic growth. CHANGE THE SYSTEM NOT THE CLIMATE!! People keep saying we need to act now, but I feel as though we just need to STOP and talk and have informed open discussions about possible worlds instead of talking about the consequences of where we are heading.

Comment #68: Elaw  on  03/12  at  01:37 AM

I am a climate scientist in the US.  Over the last several months I’ve watched colleagues and friends get slandered, have their private communications completely misinterpreted, and been variously called a hack and a fraud.  Already most of my colleagues have decided not to participate in the next IPCC assessment report, since all it does is make us targets for the most vicious personal attacks.  We’re expected now to respond to the most assinine, ill formed, and usually wrong criticisms from bloggers.  And, except for a few people stepping up to help, we’re largely being thrown to the wolves by the media, public, and politicians.

Here is my prediction.  In fifty years time, when climate change is real and apparent right before everyones eyes, there will be all sorts of hand wringing and concerned comments from people on the tv.  And everyone will soberly talk about how nobody could have predicted what was happening (much like the levee comment after Katrina). 

And I’m gonna have a really, really hard time caring at all.

Comment #69: TransientEddy  on  03/12  at  02:31 AM

Carl @51

That’s not really it.

Nor does hope actually work. The problem we face with denialism like with all right-wing resistances is that the resistance they claim to have isn’t the real emotional resistance they have to the idea. Until we tackle that underlying problem, no approach will work because the emotional investment in thinking the way they are currently thinking is greater than anything else.

So we could have the most hopeful awesome message and detail how awesome life would be without pollution and sprawling suburbs (like environmentalists did for decades throughout the 70s, 80s, and 90s). Or we could invent the most addictive pro-green-energy game on the planet like Gracchus recommended and neither would come to anything, because nothing would have been touching on the underlying source of the resistance.

Unfortunately, what likely is the source of that resistance is a hodge-podge of hard to fix things. Desperate needs to seem smarter without any effort, resistance to ever being responsible for bad things that fuels things like racism denial, a desire to escape having to think (this one is the biggest problem and the hardest to fix), a “are you asking me to give up my religion” style argument from the Rapturists, and a “family” of like-minded people built on a shared societal platform of pissing off hippies.

I’m not sure it will be easy to detangle all that from climate change.

I’m not saying give up. We should try a varied course of random stuff, because the good news is that the kids past them are willing to listen and have a more direct interest in paying attention to reality because they’re the ones who are going to have to live in the destroyed world.

Also, we look to be collapsing as an empire any decade now so our special awesome position of being able to bully the world community might falter soon anyways.

Comment #70: Cerberus  on  03/12  at  04:23 AM

You know, I don’t get the motivations of the people who are funding all the denialism, the people who know damn well it’s happening.

I thought even the oil companies had admitted that climate change is real by this stage. I just googled to check and yeah, at least some of them have. Maybe they’ve admitted it in public because it’s bad PR to to look like crazy obstructionists but in private they’re still funding the denialism so nothing can actually get done?  I feel stupid asking but who is doing the funding? And how are they profiting from climate change denial?

Also, to Amanda @18. I might be being overly generous, but I think that the way the “conspiracy theory” works among denialists who aren’t just completely stupid is that scientists are all buying into the same orthodoxy because it’s the only way they can get funding and so it’s not a case of consciously suppressing evidence so much as a certain mindset dictating what research gets done and what models get used and what papers get published and who gets tenure.* My sister, who’s not dim but not very politically aware, bought into denialism for a bit after seeing some propagandist documentary on Channel 4, and that was the impression I got of the argument.

*And I think that’s not in principle implausible, because I think something very like that has actually happened in the field of economics, and that’s how nobody saw the crash coming. Though it probably couldn’t happen in a real science.

Comment #71: daisyparker  on  03/12  at  06:03 AM

wow, really, really excellent discussion! i’m going to spend some time later and re-read this whole thing.

for now though, i think it’s time we put knuterockne back in his cage, feed and water him. it’s the right thing to do.

Comment #72: cpinva  on  03/12  at  06:16 AM

Once you admit climate change exists you have to admit that the American lifestyle is a big part of the problem, and that is completely contrary to the view of American exeptionalism; or at least how the how the typical ditto sees it.

Comment #73: John Rove  on  03/12  at  06:38 AM

Daisyparker, the oil companies aren’t giving up their oil-based polluting ways despite their knowledge that global warming is real for one reason and one reason only: there are still a shitload of profits to be made from selling oil.  Of course they’re working on green energy solutions to sell people after the oil is gone, but they’ve invested boatloads of money into their oil extracting/refining/selling infrastructure, and they’re going to drain every penny out of it that they can.

Comment #74: Rumblelizard  on  03/12  at  08:25 AM

daisyparker-

Yeah, that couldn’t happen in a real science.

Hell, it didn’t even work really well in the field of economics. Pre-crash, there were huge numbers of high-ranking economists yelling that the Bush economic plan was a horrible horrible idea. There was even this huge thing where almost every living nobel prize winner in economics signed onto a petition to the Bush Administration telling him his tax cuts were a pile of shit.

I think it’s because they’re used to the corporate world where everyone says what they think their boss wants to hear because anything else could get you fired and because they lack imagination and intellectual curiosity, they assume ScienceCorp, where the Science comes from, operates the same way and it’s just no one dares contradict CEO Al Gore.

But yeah, how science and academia in general work just make this sort of large scale collusion impossible in ways that are really obvious to anyone like say me who works in science academia.

Comment #75: Cerberus  on  03/12  at  10:05 AM

I was arguing with a student of mine about global warming.  I pointed out to him that’s it’s been known for 150 years that carbon dioxide traps heat, and I asked him what he thought was going to happen if we kept pumping it into the air.  That’s about as common sense as I was able to get.

Comment #76: BrianD  on  03/12  at  10:53 AM

“I pointed out to him that’s it’s been known for 150 years that carbon dioxide traps heat, and I asked him what he thought was going to happen if we kept pumping it into the air.”

If the truth was otherwise in another universe, and some nut on Coast to Coast said the exact same thing, the Teabaggeratti would accept it as gospel and spout it off on every occasion.  Limbaugh, Beck, O’Reilly, etc. would be hammering hippies every day, blaming them and the MSM for ignoring (dare I say it) An Inconvenient Truth.  Republican senators would end every speech with Carbon Dioxide Delenda Est!

But in that alternative universe, they’d still be wrong.

There are none so blind as those who will not see…

Comment #77: MikeEss  on  03/12  at  11:53 AM

One thing our side can do is find out who hacked the East Anglia emails and prosecute them for it.  Then we must look into if the hacker belongs to some industry group or some right-wing thinktank and bring them all down for conspiracy.  It was the same thing with ACORN, once O’keefe and Giles turned out to be lying crooks, ACORN was almost completely let off the hook PR wise.

What the deniers are doing to the planet is also criminal and even if the email hacking is unrelated to the larger scheme, I still some higher up in the food chain like Inhofe and industry leaders need to pay for their climate crimes.

Comment #78: Albert Cirrus  on  03/12  at  12:32 PM

This is an anecdote, but might point to a different way of framing the situation? Make enviromentalism a carrot rather than a stick.

I use canvas bags for food shopping, and in the supermarket it isn’t a big deal, and in some places I get a discount for bringing my own bag. But when I go to pick up milk at the local corner store, nine times out of ten I’ll get “So, trying to save the Earth?” with greater or lesser degrees of sneering. This might come from the clerk, or a fellow customer.

My response is always: “Yes, and they are easier to carry than plastic bags. I don’t have to worry about it ripping halfway home.”

It makes the sneerer stop and think.

If we can find the positive, stress the positive of working to save the environment, then it might make the deniers think a little differently about the situation.

Comment #79: Bethynyc  on  03/12  at  12:32 PM

I think it’s because they’re used to the corporate world where everyone says what they think their boss wants to hear because anything else could get you fired and because they lack imagination and intellectual curiosity, they assume ScienceCorp, where the Science comes from, operates the same way and it’s just no one dares contradict CEO Al Gore.”

Heeheeheeheeh. Good one, Cerberus.

“Them scientishuns just don’t have any common sense, like a real working man has.  Now, if you got them all out of their fancy-ass cushy jobs and out of them nince clean lab coats and put ‘em into some real clothes and made ‘em really work for once in there lives, maybe they’d pick up some sense.  If they still want to do seance, maybe they can do something usefull like figuer out how those dam libruls are sapping and impurofying our bodilly flooids, or how to make moore oil…”

Another important thing to remember about this speech is that its spoken by a guy who works in an office every day.

Comment #80: witless chum  on  03/12  at  12:42 PM

“You think you’re so hot, because you do the right thing.  You promise that I can feel as good about myself as you do if I also behave virtuously.  Well I’ll show you!  Instead of doing right, I’ll engage in behavior that is destructive to others, and even to myself, and that I don’t actually enjoy all that much, just to get back at you!”

This is logic I recognize from _The Screwtape Letters_….

Comment #81: Dr. Psycho  on  03/12  at  02:29 PM

Science academia is a very different work environment from the one that many people are familiar with where you need to be a good little drone and just do what you’re told, and while I think that that’s something that a lot of people don’t get (which is too bad for them, since doing science is basically a dream job in many ways), I’m inclined to invoke the both/and nature of this blog and say that it’s a bit of everything. Some obstacles are relatively simple problems in perception and attitude, but some are really gnarly, intractable issues. Witness our two friendly conservative tools upthread; walkable neighborhoods and nearby neighbors aren’t what they want at all. They want to keep living their paranoid, walled-off lives and their built-up little islands of self-importance and wishes for immortality. There IS no way to approach these people.

The problem is aggravated by the fact that false belief is everywhere, including among people friendly to us. There are people who believe that global climate change is real. These same people will chide me for dismissing the notion that plants experience fear and happiness, or that human consciousness evolved because we were all tripping on mushrooms, because “You can’t know anything for sure, man.” Well then, why the fuck do you believe in anything? You know, it’s the standard intellectually slopply PoMo crap*, and it’s enabling of more dangerous false beliefs. We ought to either know (rationally) why we believe what we do, and if we don’t know, be able to trust those with expertise.

* That’s not meant as a criticism of Post Modernism in general, just the common misunderstanding of its appropriate application. I actually really like Post Modernism as a very powerful, awesome tool for cultural, academic and artistic/literary criticism. It makes explicit a very important fact, that we all have biases, and helps train us to recognize and correct for them (among a great many other things). What it does NOT do is somehow demonstrate that empirical discourse and practice are meaningless, which some people seem to believe despite the lack of philosophical justification for such an idea. I’ve had people point out to me that scientists are not objective, as if this was some kind of major insight. No, they’re not, which is why the scientific method is designed to be an objective process. What really makes me nuts is that the view that bias renders all “ways of knowing” equally valid tends to be packaged with the belief that specific solutions exist to social, cultural and environmental problems. It’s not surprising though, since the philosophically consistent position would be nihilism.

And to get back to the point, nihilism is basically the problem. The threat is that we’re exposing the values of your typical denialist as ultimately harmful (at best) and empty (at worst). The danger we pose is the annihilation of much of what they consider meaningful. It’s not something they appreciate. We need to change WHAT people value, not just how they think about it.

Comment #82: grolby  on  03/12  at  04:22 PM

Science academia is a very different work environment from the one that many people are familiar with where you need to be a good little drone and just do what you’re told, and while I think that that’s something that a lot of people don’t get

I never thought of it that way, but now that you put that into words, it makes so much sense: right wingers see scientists as a bunch of employee drones working for “Science” (and Al Gore) that are all doing what they’re told at the behest of their employers, under threat of being fired if they don’t. Those of us with regular contact and experience with academia know otherwise, and it’s hard for us to even conceive of the idea as ridiculous as grolby describes, but now I see that people may well think that way.

Comment #83: Tyro  on  03/12  at  04:36 PM

@grolby #83: You nailed it with the nihilism and post-modernism. You find it in the craziest places, too. The other day I was listening to Alicia Sheperd, the NPR Ombudsman, explaining that they report “all sides” (not just both, yay) of an issue. A caller challenged her on that, saying you shouldn’t report things equally when one side is simply lying. Sheperd replied by saying “the truth is fluid” and there’s no objective reality.

That’s right. People who put the news on the radio believe that you can’t really say what is and isn’t true. What the hell is the news for then?

Comment #84: catfood  on  03/12  at  04:57 PM

human consciousness evolved because we were all tripping on mushrooms, because “You can’t know anything for sure, man.” Well then, why the fuck do you believe in anything?

Do they know that for sure?

Comment #85: cynickal  on  03/12  at  05:27 PM

Hell, it didn’t even work really well in the field of economics. Pre-crash, there were huge numbers of high-ranking economists yelling that the Bush economic plan was a horrible horrible idea. There was even this huge thing where almost every living nobel prize winner in economics signed onto a petition to the Bush Administration telling him his tax cuts were a pile of shit.

this is way OT, but what I meant by “something like this has happened in the field of economics” is that a very small subset of all possible ways of modelling the economy were academically acceptable, and unmodellable economics became effectively useless from a career perspective, and so there came a bias towards highly simplistic ways of researching human economic activity that in turn biased economic policy prescriptions.
Economists disagreeing with the Bush tax cuts still weren’t disputing the whole direction of the field of economics. It was more a difference of degree than of kind, if you know what I mean.

But like I said, way OT, and it couldn’t happen in a real science anyway.

Comment #86: daisyparker  on  03/12  at  06:19 PM

“Around here the meme is “How stupid can Americans be not to notice blatant climate change happening around them instead of having to listen to climate scientists telling them the numbers?” For us, ‘common sense’ is pretty clear, something is deeply wrong with the climate.”

yes, times 10
Winter isnt what is was when I was a kid

“Seriously, is it because in the South the climate is hot year long anyway and climate change is mostly felt in colder climes?”

not enough to explain it.  What do you think of when someone says “Christmas”? you think snow
Even if youre from Alabama where it never snows, youve seen movies, christmas cards, frosty the snowman and know that Santa drives a sleigh

This year was the first year in a long time that we had snow before Christmas in the nort east, and that dipshit Hannity was on a NY radio station saying that snow at Christmas was proof that global warming was a hoax

Yeah, i know weather <> climate and one snowfall or one warm day dosent prove or disprove global warming

but the fact remains, a “White Christmas” used to be the norm, now its a newsworthy event

Comment #87: jefft452  on  03/12  at  08:02 PM

Interesting how putting nose to grindstone doesn’t even solve the problems of the world, when flooding, freezing, overheating and drought take your possessions away.  The old solutions are not working, and the masochism of persisting with what doesn’t work is still not enough to pay dividends.

Comment #88: scratchy888  on  03/13  at  01:52 AM

It was the same thing with ACORN, once O’keefe and Giles turned out to be lying crooks, ACORN was almost completely let off the hook PR wise.

I have now heard the second story about ACORN on NPR with no mention of the discrediting of the video as we talk about it.

Comment #89: Ursula  on  03/13  at  02:56 AM

“Unfortunately one place I think we’re screwed is that unlike many places, we have a large motivated class who are currently getting most of their life meaning from “getting one over on the hippies”, so we’ve got people wholly willing to destroy themselves if they think it’ll make a hippie somewhere cry. “

Probably right.  I can think of no sensible way to destroy this group of hippie-bashers, however.  They are dead meat over time—the hippies have won—but on global warming we don’t HAVE time.

Comment #90: neroden  on  03/13  at  10:46 PM

@85 Catfood: the *only* way I know is to just tell people to stop listening to TV and radio news—ALL OF IT—stop subscribing to or reading US newspapers i(foreign ones are OK)—and get most of your news off the Internet (followed by pointing to talkingpointsmemo.com and the Guardian website, and perhaps the BBC website if they really want video or audio ....)

The old media has decided to become post-modern nihilists.  However, if edcuated people start saying “Don’t listen to those idiots, read the British press” people prone to denialism *will* listen.

Comment #91: neroden  on  03/13  at  10:49 PM

@53: “Its an odd world. The oil companies know all about climate change and peak oil. They aren’t stupid. They have just decided they are in the oil business and not the energy business so come hell or high water, probably both, they are going to sell it and we are going to buy it.”

Actually, Shell decided it was in the liquid transportation business and is therefore spending money on biofuels (and unfortunately tar sands).  (Half their business is transporting oil rather than producing, refining, or selling it.)  So not quite all the oil companies made the same dead-brained decision.  At least one made a different, if likely equally stupid, decision.

Comment #92: neroden  on  03/13  at  10:53 PM
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