Login

Register

Member List

RSS Feed

Amanda | Contact

Auguste | Contact

Jesse | Contact

Pam | Contact

Next entry: ‘Complexion’ of black camp kids not a problem at this pool Previous entry: Black kids booted from Philly club’s ‘whites-only’ pool

We’re not all out to get you

Choads

Tracy Clark-Flory put a twinkly post up about the possibility of creating sperm in a lab and the both baffling and yet predictable media response to the possibility that women could reproduce without men at all:

Take the following headlines the research spawned: “A world without need for men,” “Sperm from stem cells put men on notice” and “British scientists grow ARTIFICIAL sperm in a lab (so who needs a man?)” and “Chaps doomed as lab grows sperm.”

From what I can tell, all these came from the right wing press, so it isn’t hard to figure out what’s going on here.  The more invested members of the dominant class are in maintaining their oppression of others, the more they have elaborate, paranoid fears that the Other will rise up and kill them one day.  I have no doubt, hailing as I do from Redneckia, that the gun nut culture—-at least the NRA paranoid version, not just people who like to own guns and shoot them at targets, but have no interest in worrying that Obama is going to take their guns away—-stems from a deeply embedded racism.  That’s why there’s so much nonsensical talk about the statistically low dangers of home invasion while you’re at home.  Guess what race they imagine the home invader to be.  It’s not conscious, but the ever-present fears of black criminality in this particular set of white people goes straight back to their own stranglehold on white privilege, which is so strong they assume that it will all end in violence. 

Why else do you think the fears that Obama specifically will take their guns have such a hold on their imagination?  You got that fear with Clinton, but not even close to the same degree.  I’m lucky that I don’t spend much of my time around racist rednecks, but friends of mine who have to for work will say that yeah, it’s a fear they talk about non-fucking-stop.

I see the same thing operating here in this fear that women are plotting to overthrow the patriarchy by eliminating men altogether.  Though, of course, the paranoid would never say it that way.  They’re invested in the self-delusional belief that there’s no patriarchy and that they, in fact, are the victims here.  This mix of wanting to hang onto your ability to dominate women with all your might and your self-rationalizing belief that women are the ones with real power leads to this bizarre conclusion: Women hate being under the boot, but they are using their immense power to organize to eliminate men altogether.  A feminist conspiracy that was able to rid the planet of all men would be powerful indeed, and if they had that power, knowing feminists, they’d actually use it to get equality instead.  But to the right wing mind, this is not a possibility, because they think being a man is about domination.  Maybe this fantasy of women making artificial sperm and getting rid of men completely reflects this belief that without domination, there is no such thing as manhood itself. 

I dug into the comments section at Salon, because I know that there’s a ton of troglodytes that live and breath for hating women, most of the time because they obviously feel insecure and think it’s easier to hate women to make themselves feel better than do what it takes to feel secure, which in most of their cases would require doing hard shit like developing a personality.  I figured that a bunch of men whose obvious misogyny probably does make them personally repulsive to a whole bunch of women they meet would be enraptured by a fantasy about how all women hate all men, and would get rid of us if we didn’t need sperm.


Indeed, I found the misogynist peanut gallery there didn’t even question the idea that this is what women want.  I suspect for a lot of mouth-breathing misogynist dweebs that spend all day in internet comments freaking out that they let women write, it’s comforting to believe that manhood in general is as repulsive and rejected as they are.

Misogynist #1 assumed that women would get rid of men the first chance we got, and too bad, because The Children cannot be raised by women, but need a man to impart his sweetness and light, albeit from a proper distance as a woman does the not-raising-at-all-work of actually tending to a child.

I can’t see bringing a kid into this world at this point… not with how fucked up things already are and what portends.

Misogynist #2 assumes as well that women hate all men as much as he hates women, but believes that women exploit their power over men for more than sperm-stealing.

until sperm pays alimony and child support…

...i guess we’ll still be needed

With anti-feminists who spout this line, I’m coming around to the idea that they personally are of no value to women outside of filling legal support obligations to children that were reproduced when those women were in more gullible, desperate, or needy phases in their lives, that they would allow someone who radiates misogyny to reproduce with them.  And again, these men prefer to think of their repulsiveness as a characteristic of manhood, not a personal failing.

Misogynist #3 spouts the same line:

Let’s be honest. Women hate our guts. Always have, always will.

If we didn’t buy them stuff or pay their bills, they’d off us in a second. As I’ve said before, we’re just pack animals for them.

In the fantasy world of misogynists, women do not hold jobs, have checking accounts, or even quite understand how to use money.  There is also a strong suspicion that women have as little interest in sex as we have in having our own money.  Or, in Misogynist #4’s opinion, women have no real interest in sex with men, either.

When women get scare men want them more but I think if men were irrelevant to the functioning of the society women would lose interest altogether. It is not at all clear that a male body is intrinsically compellingly interesting to women simply because it is a male body (and mind).

Again, you see this insistence that all men are basically alike, which is their way of saying, “I cannot help being a megaton asshole.  That’s how men are.”  That this single asshole personality for all men theory is not true is irrelevant—-we are talking about men who believe that women are seeking to eliminate men altogether, that women have no real interest in sex, and that women have no use for money of our own. 

I’ll leave you with Misogynist #5, who already believes that there’s a war going on, and his “tribe” of men must retreat to the fortress to fend off the Amazonian invasion:

This is what single motherhood and the feminization of the education system has wrought. The reality is there is still a large number of men being raised by men….unfortunately for liberals, the men will all grow up to be republicans, and you won’t see these men in cities….at least not until they are in their 20’s. I for one, will continue to promote fatherhood and maleness to my tribe, even if I’m the last democrat doing it.

The thread continues like this, with misogynists claiming that their assholery and repulsiveness, both sexual and social, are inherent to all men, and that just as women try not to be around them personally,* women want to be away from men permanently.

*At least women with healthy self-esteems.  I’m sure many of these guys get laid, have dates, have girlfriends, and most have ex-wives.  The patriarchal system of self-esteem shredding in women seems like it’s almost demonically designed to get dates for men like this.

 

------

Registration is now required! We're still in the process of getting it all squared away, so for the moment don't forget to Login or Register using the links in the upper left menu before starting to write your comment.

Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 09:42 AM • (128) Comments

But ... but…. if get rid of all the men, who will kill the spiders in the bath tub?

Comment #1: BadKitty  on  07/09  at  10:43 AM

Because they never figured out that the world doesn’t, you know, revolve around them and every other person has exactly the same views and experiences (because guy like them is a person; other humans aren’t really people).

Comment #2: helen w. h.  on  07/09  at  10:49 AM

...who will kill spiders in the bath tub?

That’s what cats are for! Mighty spider-hunting cats!

Comment #3: Bethynyc  on  07/09  at  10:49 AM

I’ve always thought the gun thing had a lot more to do with sex than race: the gun being the obvious penis substitute, gun madness is all about a desperate attempt to claim the attributes of manhood that these people singularly lack. When we were exiled to rural VA, there were a few women who enjoyed shooting targets b/c they thought it was fun, and there were a few who hunted b/c they needed the meat. But I never saw any women get all fetishy about their guns, or buy magazines about guns, or any of the creepy psychological stuff. Granted, all of these people were white, so it’s probably some combination of the two, but anecdata suggested that the less partnered a man was, the more he was likely to be a gun bunny.

Comment #4: felagund  on  07/09  at  10:49 AM

This post made my day. I’m picturing a tribe of spear-wielding, 20-something men invading a city.

Comment #5: Entomologista  on  07/09  at  11:05 AM

This whole conversation reminds me of a schlocky Sci-Fi movie-on-a-budget which posited some sort of disease which killed 99% of the men around the world.  Women promptly took over and threw the remaining 1% of the men into protected zones and then proceeded to run around living the Rightie paranoid-fantasy of the Lesbian Conspiracy, except for the secret cabal in charge who kept a few specially-chosen men as sex slaves in a hidden brothel.

Fun stuff.

Comment #6: tannenburg  on  07/09  at  11:08 AM

The really funny thing is that when this was reported on the BBC News last night, it was framed as research which might help overcome male infertility - i.e. nothing to do with getting rid of men at all, and everything to do with allowing men who can’t currently have children to do so.

I’ve always thought the gun thing had a lot more to do with sex than race:

Eco: “Since both permanent war and heroism are difficult games to play, the Ur-Fascist transfers his will to power to sexual matters. This is the origin of machismo (which implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality). Since even sex is a difficult game to play, the Ur-Fascist hero tends to play with weapons—doing so becomes an ersatz phallic exercise.”

But ... but…. if get rid of all the men, who will kill the spiders in the bath tub?

Never fear: Scientists Invent Dildo That Can Remove Spiders.

Comment #7: Dunc  on  07/09  at  11:22 AM

Sheryl S Tepper’s “The Gate to Women’s Country?”  I didn’t know it had been made into a movie, Tannenburg.

Comment #8: phylosopher  on  07/09  at  11:24 AM

Unfortunately the plan to rid the planet of teh menz cannot [yet] be put into action. The scientists were only able to to produce sperm from stem cells obtained from male embryos.

Also, I do hope that the real important implication of this news (embryo—>stem cell—>sperm) hasn’t escaped people: scientists have finally validated what the forced-birthers have been demanding all along—personhood and legal rights for the, you know, sperm, that most glorious of all the products of development of an embryo-American.

Comment #9: ema  on  07/09  at  11:25 AM

That’s why there’s so much nonsensical talk about the statistically low dangers of home invasion while you’re at home.  Guess what race they imagine the home invader to be.

I always imagine my home invaders as white guys on meth with shaved heads and faux tribal celtic tattoos lead by a guy who looks like a combination of Rasputin and Rob Zombie.

Maybe I play way too many video games ... smile

Comment #10: Richard Goblin  on  07/09  at  11:26 AM

The misogyny drips off those comments, but the self-hate and misandry do, too.

Women never fall in love with men?  They never want a child who mixes the best (hopefully) of the two?  No one ever stays married for 50 years?

Well, not for those choads.  They have to browbeat a woman, if they can find one who’ll have them.  If she gets a breath of air, she’ll leave them and force them to help care for their own children.  Quelle horreur.

Comment #11: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  07/09  at  11:28 AM

Hah!  Long ago, a friend in communications and I were plotting to hoax the media with an announcement that scientists figured out a way to join two eggs (the offspring being all female, of course) - but then life intervened and we never got around to it.  Had a great time thinking about it, though.

The reaction to this is exactly what we expected the reaction to the hoax would be.

Comment #12: Ms Kate  on  07/09  at  11:38 AM

Female friend (while camping): Male partner, there’s a spider in the tent.

Male partner: (looks in tent, verifies spider) ... Kate?  Can you get the spider out of here?

Comment #13: Ms Kate  on  07/09  at  11:40 AM

Forget artificial sperm.  Egg-egg fusion (parthenogenesis) is where it’s at (and it has already been accomplished with two female mice).  Once that is perfected, the Y chromosome can be eliminated all together.

Just wait for the news stories and the MRA howling when that technology is perfected.

Women never fall in love with men?

Apparently not in wingnut land.

Comment #14: Richard Goblin  on  07/09  at  11:40 AM

Hmm, Ms. Kate beat me to the egg-egg fusion thing.  But no need for a hoax, Ms. Kate.  It’s already been accomplished with mice.

Comment #15: Richard Goblin  on  07/09  at  11:43 AM

This whole conversation reminds me of a schlocky Sci-Fi movie-on-a-budget which posited some sort of disease which killed 99% of the men around the world.  Women promptly took over and threw the remaining 1% of the men into protected zones and then proceeded to run around living the Rightie paranoid-fantasy of the Lesbian Conspiracy, except for the secret cabal in charge who kept a few specially-chosen men as sex slaves in a hidden brothel.

Fun stuff.

Sheryl S Tepper’s “The Gate to Women’s Country?” I didn’t know it had been made into a movie, Tannenburg.

?????  “The Gate To Women’s Country” had equal proportions of men and women, with the women as the scientists, artists, and politicians and the men divided into either soldiers or “servitors”.  I know, because it’s one of the few post-apocalyptic novels that I like.

Comment #16: Blue Jean  on  07/09  at  11:45 AM

I’m still waiting for an artificial womb.  That’s something that would really help me out.  The sperm part is the easiest part of reproduction.

Let’s be honest. Women hate our guts. Always have, always will.

  If we didn’t buy them stuff or pay their bills, they’d off us in a second. As I’ve said before, we’re just pack animals for them.

I think sums up wingnut paranoid, delusional fears perfectly.  I’m amazed that someone actually admitted it out loud though.  But the thing is, just because women hate <his> guts doesn’t mean we hate the guts of all men.  This particular guy is probably just particularly unlikeable, do to jerkitude, poor hygiene, or a combination of the two.  He’s probably the kind of guy who wonders why those dumb sluts don’t wanna have sex with them even though they wanted to do it with a bunch of Brad Pitt look-a-likes.  Apparently he hates men almost as much as he hates women if he thinks they’re all the same.

Comment #17: bananacat  on  07/09  at  11:47 AM

The fear that advanced reproductive technology will cause women to never want to have sex with men reminds me of the fear that drum machines and synthesizers will lead to the end of musicians.

Even if you have a machine that can perfectly reproduce the sounds of a human band, people are still going to want to get together and play their instruments, because it’s fun.  It’s not the end product that brings us together, it’s the activity itself.

And even if you can produce offspring without engaging in coitus, people are still going to screw, because it’s fun. 

Nearly as fun as playing music, I hear.

Comment #18: Cris  on  07/09  at  12:07 PM

“It is not at all clear that a male body is intrinsically compellingly interesting to women simply because it is a male body (and mind).”

Really?  I was utterly obsessed with Michaelangelo’s “David” when I was *five years old* because I thought he was beautiful, I have a yaoi collection that most fangurrrls would be embarrassed about as being over the top, and I think my husband is TEH HAWT.  Yeah, I’d say I find the male body “intrinsically compellingly interesting”, amirite?

Unfortunately, there’s too much societal baggage attached to women’s bodies (especially now) for me to say the same about women’s bodies (except in my deepest, darkest secret closet where I moon over 1960’s Playboy magazines, wishing *I* looked like that). 

Issues?  Yeah, I got ‘em….

But men’s bodies are SWEET ...

Comment #19: Mhorag  on  07/09  at  12:10 PM

And even if you can produce offspring without engaging in coitus, people are still going to screw, because it’s fun.

The problem is that wingnuts are convinced that women don’t actually like sex.  They think we only do it for jewelry, babies, or because we’re pressured into it.  It’s not even just wingnuts who think this way; it’s pervasive throughout our culture.  I’m reminded of the Sienfeld episode where Jerry says that women’s bodies are beautiful and men’s bodies are “bad naked”.  They’re ugly and just used for getting around.  Of course, just because women don’t like one man’s body doesn’t mean that we don’t like any male bodies.

Comment #20: bananacat  on  07/09  at  12:12 PM

That’s why there’s so much nonsensical talk about the statistically low dangers of home invasion while you’re at home.  Guess what race they imagine the home invader to be.

Which reminds me of an anecdote from last year’s TAM. (I was really excited to hear that you’ll be there this year! I’d love to meet you in person.) I’ll leave out the name-dropping part, but anyway I found myself packed into a taxi with a friend of mine and a pair of well-known bloggers, one of whom was visiting America for the first time. So, obviously, we had to take him to the gun range.

The first thing we see on getting there, of course, is the sign above the trash can outside: “Voting for Obama? Same time—put your guns here!” The second thing we see, upon entering the gun range proper, is the collection of photo targets available to shoot at. You know, the usual. The angry black guy, the Mexican, the turbaned Muslim… Oh, and one possibly white guy, but you couldn’t tell, because he was wearing a ski mask. The only target whose face wasn’t clearly visible.

No, gun nuts don’t have racist tendencies at all.

Comment #21: Tobasco da Gama  on  07/09  at  12:15 PM

Perhaps the movie you are thinking of is <a href = “http://punkassblog.com/index.php?s=sexmission”>Sexmission</a>, where two scientists, who had agreed to be briefly frozen in the name of science, woke up in a post-apocalyptic world to find they were the only two men on earth under a new Amazonian world order.  Could combined forces of the ladies’ man scientist and the shy loner scientist teach the women how to love again?  I think they can!

Comment #22: Kyso K  on  07/09  at  12:19 PM

God dammit.  I used to know HTML, serious I did.

http://punkassblog.com/index.php?s=sexmission

Comment #23: Kyso K  on  07/09  at  12:20 PM

Awww

Comment #24: atheist  on  07/09  at  12:21 PM

Wow. In the absolute lowest of my low self-esteem moments, I used to imagine that women couldn’t possibly want sex with other women, and even the ones who did would really rather be with men (and I was somehow the one magical exception), but then I stopped thinking that, because that’s ridiculous. I wonder what these guys think when they see women with men they actually like. Probably that those men don’t actually have penises, or something.

I’m sure many of these guys get laid, have dates, have girlfriends, and most have ex-wives.

That’s what really gets me. They actually get women to tolerate their presence and even to have sex with them, so there must be something about them that attracts women, which should prove to them that women can actually like them. I guess it’s easier to say your wife left you because she hated you, and all men, than to admit that you took her for granted and treated her like crap because you thought being nice to your wife was emasculating.

Comment #25: junk science  on  07/09  at  12:26 PM

They actually get women to tolerate their presence and even to have sex with them, so there must be something about them that attracts women

There are several explanations, but most likely, women aren’t actually attracted to them.  They’ve convinced themselves that the only thing they have to offer women are money and pack-mule services, and they’ve convinced some women that that’s all they’ll get in a man.  Combine that with the social pressure that a woman must have a husband or a man in her life, and the pressure women feel to prove that some man actually likes them, it’s not surprising that some women will settle for these guys.  They think they can’t do any better, either because they think there are no better men out there, or because they think that they personally can’t get a better one.  Personally, if these type of men were the only option, I’d rather stay single.  But for most women, there’s a really overwhelming pressure to not be single.

Comment #26: bananacat  on  07/09  at  12:39 PM

The only thing keeping me from seeing men like this as a completely different species that we as a society are evolving away from is the fact that it’s not actually genetic.

Yes, there are women out there who are the “mates” of this particular type of asshole. They were raised to believe that they didn’t have a future themselves, that their own sexuality was dirty and shameful, and that their future lay solely in their ability to find a man to take care of her.

So they make themselves up to be the beauty ideal, to be attractive to the sort of man who wants to be the “breadwinner” and possess a woman as a wife instead of having a meaningful relationship with a friend.

They aren’t particularly happy in their life, and occasionally it becomes too difficult for them and they divorce.

And the men they are married to aren’t particularly happy in their life, because the woman they thought they bought fair and square divorced him, and it seems like the available pool of women who are willing to be bought, who conform to his notions of what an attractive mate are is shrinking by the day. So he goes into the Salon comments section and makes nasty remarks about all women, everywhere.

Meanwhile, those of us who are heterosexual and aren’t invested in completely archaic gender roles, who actually believe that a mate should be a good fuck and a friend, and that sexuality is something wonderful that two people can share and have a lot of fun with, we’ve mostly paired off with men who share these values, who don’t view us as some sort of albatross that they must carry around their necks as the price of having a constantly available fuckhole who does the dishes, and we’re generally pretty happy.

And that REALLY makes the poor menz at Salon mad.

Comment #27: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/09  at  12:39 PM

In Wingnut land ...

Men are men and desire ONLY men unless they are FORCED to mate with women.
Women are men and will act like men and dress like men and desire ONLY other women unless they are FORCED to shave their legs, wear dresses, mate with men, and have babies.

Personally?  I think too many wingnuts have been artificially inseminating pigs and living amongst livestock for far too long.

Comment #28: Ms Kate  on  07/09  at  12:43 PM

MonkeyShines is onto us—-since some woman named Mary Daly, who I’ve never heard of, said it, then it must be what all women everywhere believe.

Monkey, I repeat: because women do not like you or want to be around you doesn’t mean that women in general do not like men in general.  Your odious personality is your responsibility, not a happenstance of being male.

Comment #29: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/09  at  12:44 PM

“I’m picturing a tribe of spear-wielding 20-something men invading a city.”

Entomologista, I think this is how the Quiverfull families imagine the end game, except that the city will be a burnt-out wasteland that the morally correct Quiverlings will homestead.  The fact that they will actually find a sophisticated and well-run civilization that they are totally unprepared to join, much less rule, will be a profound disillusionment to them.

Comment #30: Dr. Psycho  on  07/09  at  12:47 PM

Males are excess population in many species.

Comment #31: Ms Kate  on  07/09  at  12:47 PM

If women were to pretty much write men off completely and start the new world order, they sure wouldn’t need this technology. A few willing men (preferably adolescent and horny), and a rousing market in mason jars and turkey basters ought to cover it. Shouldn’t need more than a few percent of the population to be male.

Even without the desire to eliminate men entirely or some other science fiction scenario, it is absurd to believe that the majority of otherwise fertile people (even if not with each other) could afford what is likely to be the astronomical costs of this. There were similar scares when it looked like it was practical to take an egg and replace its DNA with that from a male - “enabling gay couples to have their own children, who will need women?”

This has some potential in a hypothetical future eugenics movement, but not a lot of practical application.

The hoohah over this reminds me of the anti marriage equality arguments that seem to presuppose that without marriage, gay folk won’t have sex and raise kids.

Comment #32: Lymis  on  07/09  at  12:49 PM

See also: Polygamy, and “suicide bombers”.

Comment #33: Ms Kate  on  07/09  at  12:49 PM

Looks like a lot of men are still worried about the threat posed by evil librul eggheads and women to their precious bodily fluids.

I don’t know what it is about these kinds of insecure and bitter men that some women find attractive—probably because I almost automatically avoid that kind of woman.

Comment #34: Gracchus.  on  07/09  at  12:51 PM

As for the right wing “male bodies aren’t attractive to women” thing - it is projection, pure and simple. Unable to acknowledge that other people actually may have valid life experiences, they naturally assume everyone has the same opinions they do.

They are straight and homophobic, so therefore, nobody could possibly be attracted to men. At least nobody they want to have anything to do with. Therefore, their women aren’t. Add to that the fact that for a lot of men, marriage means letting themselves go, and admitting that women like hot men is a serious threat. They might have to go to gyms. Like teh gayz.

Comment #35: Lymis  on  07/09  at  12:52 PM

Oh, and I forgot to mention cannon fodder for adventure wars.  Yes. That.

See?  It ain’t liberal women that men need fear - it is conservative male leadership that treats young men as expendible.

Comment #36: Ms Kate  on  07/09  at  12:55 PM

I have read a couple of blogs in which the participants (who identify themselves as women) advocate the position that our world would be totally better off with no men on it, but they seem to be the same five people in each one.

Comment #37: Linnaeus  on  07/09  at  12:57 PM

I don’t know what it is about these kinds of insecure and bitter men that some women find attractive—probably because I almost automatically avoid that kind of woman.

Well, I already explained this but I’ll repeat it for you.  Most women do not find these men attractive.  They tolerate a bunch of crap because they’ve been convinced that better don’t exist, and that it’s the worst possible fate for them to be single forever.  They have been taught to think that these men are just normal.  Also, don’t underestimate the temporary charm of some jackasses.  Some people can seem very nice at first and change once a person is trapped in a relationship with them.

Comment #38: bananacat  on  07/09  at  01:02 PM

Sorry, monkeyshines, but I wasn’t listening - I was off telling some black people that they were a bunch of stupid subhumans because they didn’t know that everything they were supposed to be doing was dictated to them years ago by some obscure black marxist.  Or something.

Funny how people don’t get to even decide who the leaders and founders of their movements are - just like we need white men to tell us what is really racist and sexist.

Comment #39: Ms Kate  on  07/09  at  01:05 PM

Nor did I suggest that all women share the esteemed Ms. Daly’s views, I was only providing proof that such a current of thought does exist.

In other news, the sky is blue and water is wet.  No one ever said that no feminist ever ever thought this stuff, so you really have no point.  There are some scientists who insist that the Earth is 6,000 years old.  It doesn’t matter because most scientists don’t agree.  By the same token, most feminists are not the stereotypical man-haters.  Just saying that that attitude actually exists doesn’t mean anything.  With so many people on this planet, nearly every attitude that you can imagine exists somewhere.

Comment #40: bananacat  on  07/09  at  01:08 PM

Dennis Prager is obviously part of this tribe, and not just because of the series of articles he wrote commanding women to have sex on demand of their husbands, even if they don’t feel like it.  He was on CNN or MSNBC recently claiming that gay marriage must be stopped because women are leaving their husbands in droves to enter into lesbian relationships.  According to him, female sexuality is too “fluid” to be allowed to just roam around unfettered.  I’m half expecting him to take it a step further.  Don’t be surprised to see a column by him in the future extolling the virtues of forcing young women into arranged marriages.

Comment #41: DonnaDiva  on  07/09  at  01:20 PM

Not to mention that monkey ass couldn’t come up with an example that isn’t 30 years old.  lol your current scholarship fail.

Comment #42: rowmyboat  on  07/09  at  01:24 PM

The depths of self-loathing are almost heartbreaking.  Then you remember that these guys are assholes.

Comment #43: bomberE  on  07/09  at  01:26 PM

Thinking that Mary Daly was state of the feminist discourse art in recent years is like saying that Southeast Asia might fall to Communists via the domino effect in ten years ago.  That is, outdated thinking.  Current scholarship and something having been said recently are two different things. 

Not to mention that, context being important, separatism actually was more relevant at in bygone decades, because patriarchal society in the US was at one point much worse than it is now.

Comment #44: rowmyboat  on  07/09  at  01:32 PM

I was only providing proof that such a current of thought does exist.

Great. With a minimum of effort, you can find an extremist to advocate any damnfool view on any given topic. As we’ve seen in the comments quoted, though, it takes even less effort to find fools on this topic—they show up by the dozens, demanding to be taken seriously.

Well, I already explained this but I’ll repeat it for you.  Most women do not find these men attractive.  They tolerate a bunch of crap because they’ve been convinced that better don’t exist, and that it’s the worst possible fate for them to be single forever.

Missed your earlier post. That makes sense, especially given that the women I socialise with are usually independent, not obsessed with marriage, and pretty intolerant of arseholes in general. They usually have good BS detectors, too.

I have met women like this, of course, but their on-going soap operas with charming and sexy rotters get tiresome quickly.

Comment #45: Gracchus.  on  07/09  at  01:35 PM

Blue Jean—I loathed “Gate Into Women’s Country” for a while, because it hated men so very, very much.  Then I started to appreciate the bleakness of its assessment of power dynamics.  Because the patriarchical self-destroying tribe the woman ran to was the obvious dystopia, but thinking about the “good” tribe that had gone on for all those years, one realized that the lives of its inhabitants were relentlessly exhausting, focused on maintenance of knowledge without sufficient tools to implement it.  In addition, the mirror of the brutality the female ruling class foisted on its own citizens (sterilizing the ones who produced too violent of children) with the violence the men foisted on one another was stark.  I never did figure out if Tepper was subtly tweaking gender war by noting that no matter what, if one were in war, one is in war.  Or if she was so invested in the conflict that she literally saw no solution in general other than people doing horrible things to people, just fewer of them in some societies.

Lymis - it’s not just projection.  I know decent men who think this.  I mean, yeah, part of it is incomprehension of male bodies being sexual, due to lack of lived-in experience.  But another part of it is never having either made a study of what women find attractive or being seriously informed that women have sexualities that a man can learn to excite.  Why not?  Women try to look good in order to attract good partners; why shouldn’t men put some time in?  But the idea is so foreign.  That’s a societal thing, I think.

Comment #46: Punditus Maximus  on  07/09  at  01:50 PM

The male body isn’t “intrinsically compellingly interesting”? Then how come Hugh Jackman spent so much time naked in Wolverine? Because that really was the only saving grace for that movie.

Same thing for Australia, although his best shirtless scene is in the first half hour and there’s no real reason to watch after that.

Comment #47: Phoebe Fay  on  07/09  at  01:54 PM

This is proof that it’s only one short half-step from the belief that other people (women, blacks, fill in the blank) are incidental and disposable and that the amenities of civilization are wasted on them to the belief that you are incidental and disposable and that the goals of civilization are best pursued without you.  Eliminationism is catching, IOW.  Keep playing the record in your head which says that women are foreign to society and you’re eventually going to end up walkng around wondering you might not be the foreigner and whether the people you’ve consigned to the outer darkness (whoever they are in your case) might not be the natives.  The one belief is a simple inversion of the other: cultivate the first point of view and you’ll automatically become susceptible to the second.

Ain’t justice fine?

Comment #48: bekabot  on  07/09  at  01:54 PM

I really get a kick out of the whole idea/meme that the world revolves around mating at all costs like salmon.
Really?
Really?
That’s the ONLY reason? Pfft.
Seriously if I was only dating the bf for his sperm I’m sure murdering millions of them on towels (and other places) every weekend.
OMG I’m a GENOCIDER!!!!

Comment #49: Danica Lefse Queen  on  07/09  at  01:57 PM

Let me throw you a boatanchor lifeline, monkeyshines…

More proof of the feminist conspiracy:  way back in 1974, manly Sean Connery was feminized by wearing underooz and go-go boots!

The gun is good. The penis is evil. The penis shoots seeds, and makes new life to poison the Earth with a plague of men, as once it was, but the gun shoots death, and purifies the Earth of the filth of the brutals.  Go forth . . . and kill! 

Zardoz has spoken!

...of course, in the context, his underooz and go-go boots (along with his florid mustache and big, big gun) were what made him uber-manly, so maybe I’m looking at this in entirely the wrong way. 

:rolleyes:

Comment #50: jamie d  on  07/09  at  01:59 PM

Seriously if I was only dating the bf for his sperm I’m sure murdering millions of them on towels (and other places) every weekend.

Shameful. Don’t you know that Every Sperm is Sacred?

Comment #51: Gracchus.  on  07/09  at  02:03 PM

If you have never heard of Mary Daly, then you have been poorly educated in the history of your chosen movement.

Take that, Amanda!

Comment #52: bomberE  on  07/09  at  02:03 PM

I’m reminded of the Sienfeld episode where Jerry says that women’s bodies are beautiful and men’s bodies are “bad naked”.  They’re ugly and just used for getting around.

I thought of the same thing.  Of course, men’s bodies are great for more than killing spiders and reaching tall things.  Just, apparently not these men’s bodies.  It makes me sad to see anyone believe their body sucks so much that no one could want them for much more than paying the bills.  But when that belief results in misogyny, a bad personality, and a self-fulfilling prophesy around any woman with any self respect, I feel less bad.

It’s too bad, too, because “bad naked” is a hilarious concept.  And given the kind of blogs I’ve taken to reading, it’s excellent shorthand for “brain burn—pass the pictures of delightful kittens plz.”

Comment #53: themmases  on  07/09  at  02:05 PM

Strangely enough, I was considering yesterday how reproductive technology or genetic engineering might be used in a story set a few decades from now.

What I came up with was the idea of true hermaphroditism, which would have both the wingnuts and some parts of the left up in arms, but might also have a pretty rabid pro contingent - if you had it as an option, wouldn’t locking your kid into one gender be considered a form of child abuse?  There’s a good sf/political piece there somewhere…

If they think artificial sperm is a threat, wait until they see what else is on the horizon.

But ... but…. if get rid of all the men, who will kill the spiders in the bath tub?

Honey, you’re on your own as regards that anyway.  Macho only goes so far.

That’s what cats are for! Mighty spider-hunting cats!

I’ve seen cats decline to go near a bath tub spider. This may be because they didn’t want to disturb it while it was amusing itself - it had managed to get hold of my toothbrush and was playing field hockey with the bath plug….

Comment #54: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/09  at  02:07 PM

It is not at all clear that a male body is intrinsically compellingly interesting to women simply because it is a male body (and mind).

And people say feminists hate men.

Comment #55: Denise  on  07/09  at  02:08 PM

The future has shown that women will always want men for snu-snu.

Comment #56: bomberE  on  07/09  at  02:08 PM

I would agree with your thesis, Amanda, if not for this fine piece of investigative reporting by Brian K. Vaughan and Pia Guerra.

Comment #57: iphisol  on  07/09  at  02:10 PM

rofl @ that “Spider killing dildo” article!

On the topic of “Evil wimen getting rid of men” I think it is pure projection. This guys resent needing women for anything and would love a way to get rid of “haughty women” - or demanding gay male partners - if they could get their jollies with a robot
<blockquote>Glenn Reynolds:

IN THE MAIL: David Levy’s Love and Sex with Robots: The Evolution of Human-Robot Relationships, No doubt this will set off a storm among the narrow-minded robophobes out there. Stand up to the haters!
  “Love with robots will be as normal as love with other humans,” Levy writes, “while the number of sexual acts and lovemaking positions commonly practiced between humans will be extended, as robots teach us more than is in all of the world’s published sex manuals combined.”

  Levy goes on to imagine a world of robot prostitutes, or “sexbots,” which would offer people a chance to practice their technique before entering a human relationship. “With a robot prostitute,” he writes, “the control of disease is implicit — simply remove the active parts and put them in the disinfecting machine.”</a>

Sounds like wingnut heaven no ? A mindless, disease free sex slave that only requires you to remember to change it’s batteries and wash it’s ladyparts every once in a while. (I’m sure even that chore would be subject to much wingnutt bitching about the unfairness of having to spend time / effort to mate’)

THEY are the ones who want to get rid of women.

Comment #58: lostmypassword  on  07/09  at  02:11 PM

Women try to look good in order to attract good partners; why shouldn’t men put some time in?  But the idea is so foreign.  That’s a societal thing, I think.

Thanks for finally saying this!  I prefer metro men partly because they simply put it in more effort and appreciate how much I do.  It certainly is a societal thing.  Throughout history, it has been common for men to wear make-up as much as women, mostly because it’s a status symbol.  In our own country, it used to be common for men to wear wigs.  Of course animals shouldn’t me our role models, but we’re one of the few species where females try to be physically attractive to males at our own expense, instead of the other way around.  Just think about peacocks and lion manes.  This doesn’t mean that we should try to act like animals, but it shows that our backwards method is most likely societal rather than “natural” or instinctive.  Then there’s the problem that most men don’t realize how much effort even the plainest women put into their appearance.  Don’t get me started on that.

Comment #59: bananacat  on  07/09  at  02:15 PM

What I came up with was the idea of true hermaphroditism, which would have both the wingnuts and some parts of the left up in arms, but might also have a pretty rabid pro contingent - if you had it as an option, wouldn’t locking your kid into one gender be considered a form of child abuse?  There’s a good sf/political piece there somewhere…

The Left Hand of Darkness - Ursula K. LeGuin

Awesome book about a hermaphroditic sub-race of humans.  Once a month they become sexually potent and their bodies become one sex or the other for the purpose of sexual pleasure and mating.  An individual can both bear children and get children on others.  When they’re not sexually potent they have no sex or gender.

Comment #60: Denise  on  07/09  at  02:16 PM

The Left Hand of Darkness - Ursula K. LeGuin

You beat me to it. Awesome book!

Comment #61: lostmypassword  on  07/09  at  02:22 PM

The Left Hand of Darkness - Ursula K. LeGuin

I was thinking more along the lines of “Cocoon” by Greg Egan.

Comment #62: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/09  at  02:26 PM

Monkey, I’m not even in the same room with you, but from the moment you stepped on this blog, you gave me that distinct creepy vibe.  If you can do that virtually, I can only imagine what you do to women who are forced to be in the same room with you.  Of course you think women don’t actually desire men or want to be around them.  But we do.  Not you, of course, but my boyfriend, for instance, is happily assured that I’m with him not because I’m desperate or financially dependent, but because I like him.

Comment #63: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/09  at  02:29 PM

Ugh.  Clicked that stupid Mary Daly article.  Couldn’t get past the fatuous mangling of Buddhism.  The quote is from a Theravada Buddhist text, which may or may not have been the Buddha’s own words.

When people in the West think of and study Buddhism, it’s Mahayana (eg. China/Japan/Tibet, etc.), not Theravada (eg. Thailand/Sri Lanka) Buddhism.  There are some seriously misogynistic things about Theravada Buddhism, mostly inherited from Hindusim, but to take them as representing Buddhism in general and particular Buddhism as we know it in the west is incredibly ignorant.  One probably shouldn’t try to make big points about a religion if one doesn’t even know there are several different sects.  (See: US Foreign Policy > Arab World > 2000-2008)

And the quote is taken out of context.  I looked it up and the Buddha was saying that when you’re setting up a monastery there should be a mix of men and women, not women only, or the monastery will fall apart over time.  So it’s misogyny of the “wimmin need guys around to kill the spiders for them” variety, not the “women are spiritually corrupt” variety.

If Spiritual Dabbler magazine (or whatever it’s called) can’t even get the details on the very basics of Buddhism, why would you take them as being definitive on anything else?

Comment #64: liminalist  on  07/09  at  02:43 PM

  Let’s be honest. Women hate our guts. Always have, always will.

If we didn’t buy them stuff or pay their bills, they’d off us in a second. As I’ve said before, we’re just pack animals for them.

Projection, much? Do these people realize there are plenty of women whose boyfriends don’t pay their bills who still like their boyfriends? And that those women are the result of feminism and the way it enabled women to support themselves financially?

(And Amanda, I hope Monkeyshines the Gaping Asshole doesn’t put you off Mary Daly permanently, because she is a lot of fun to read.)

Comment #65: Lauren O  on  07/09  at  02:48 PM

I mean, yeah, part of it is incomprehension of male bodies being sexual, due to lack of lived-in experience.  But another part of it is never having either made a study of what women find attractive or being seriously informed that women have sexualities that a man can learn to excite.  Why not?  Women try to look good in order to attract good partners; why shouldn’t men put some time in?  But the idea is so foreign.  That’s a societal thing, I think.

I’m also inclined to think that this is the result of how girls and boys are socialized, which is of course a societal thing.  Girls and women are still socialized to doubt ourselves and hate ourselves, especially our appearance.  Meanwhile it seems like boys and men are still socialized to think they’re the shit and just perfect as they are.  So you have a guy who has a beer gut and poor fashion sense who can’t get a date.  Is he going to admit* that part of the problem might be his lack of effort?  Probably not.

And then there’s still internalized homophobia which posits that caring about your appearance and having an equal relationship is kinda faggy.

*He might suspect the real reason, but it would probably take a lot for him to overthrow his conviction that he’s a special snowflake.

Comment #66: keshmeshi  on  07/09  at  02:49 PM

men must retreat to the fortress to fend off the Amazonian invasion

I’m going to have to clear my calender.  Please make the first wave redheads and I’ll happily sacrifice myself on the front lines.


Sigh… the sacrifices I make for my gender.

Comment #67: cynickal  on  07/09  at  02:58 PM

Oh I hate it when men say “gals” or “gal”.  I wouldn’t date this one guy who was liberal and looked pretty good on paper because of that.  It makes my jaw get all hardened and the hair on the back of my neck stands up.

Comment #68: Lady Vader  on  07/09  at  03:03 PM

If the male body was not “intrinsically compellingly interesting” to women, then neither Ryan Reynolds nor Vin Diesel (to name only two) would have a career.  Not to mention a host of male models, especially of the underwear variety.  Also, gym membership would never have gotten so popular.  Lord knows I was happy to kill 45 minutes on the treadmill in exchange for the pleasure of watching a bunch of strangers flex their muscles in various and interesting ways.  Yeah, I got the exercise I needed, but without the floor show, it would have been a hard sell.  Never spoke to a one of them, but they kept me amused for a year.  I cried when my physical therapist said I had to lay off the gym for at least 10 months. 

Objectifying the male form aside, I rather like men, hot or not.  I like the different way their brains work, the sorts of experiences they share that are far from what I’ve gone through, their skill sets, musical tastes, quirks and habits.  Not because they’re male, but because I routinely see them as people.

If those deluded jerks ever once stopped to think of how much we mothers care for our sons (because they are our children and people), their arguments would simply dissolve.  The end of the man-hating narrative (and other inane beliefs based solely on sexist premises) would certainly make it much easier to raise boys without the sort of self-hatred and fears displayed in those comments.

Comment #69: Reba  on  07/09  at  03:06 PM

That’s a societal thing, I think.

It’s a socialization, to be precise. When I was dating my girlfriend I learned that her parents never displayed physical affection in front of her and/or her sister, while I’d grown up with PA and MA being affectionate, which now that I think about it, might’ve been deliberate because of their own upbringing…..

hmmmmmmmmm

He was on CNN or MSNBC recently claiming that gay marriage must be stopped because women are leaving their husbands in droves to enter into lesbian relationships.

Yah know he’s been divorced twice, wonder if there’s something personal about that somewhere

Some people can seem very nice at first and change once a person is trapped in a relationship with them.

My Texas cousin, who married when she was 16, once cryptically hinted that she “knew” how her ‘ex’ had gotten his 2nd wife to marry him. He was a real piece of work.  He would call anything besides a newspaper or Bible a “damn book”, beat her as well as having her buy things for his girlfriend. She came here to CA, I learned only a few years ago, because she wouldn’t have been able to keep a job as he was determined to make her pay for divorcing him.

The rest of the story is that he now has COPD to where he’s on oxygen, his daughter won’t give him the time of day, and he’s a pathetic man who perhaps still doesn’t understand how he got to his present stage of life.

As Mother Avenger used to say, what comes around goes around,

Comment #70: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  07/09  at  03:08 PM

iphisol, beaten to the punch!

I think all these commenters should read Y: The Last Man, because then they’d see how women would react to all men dying in the real world, and not sexist loonyville.

Keshmeshi: I think hatred of fat is ingrained in our society to the point where the man would definitely think that the beer gut is responsible for his datelessness. That man might also claim that it’s because he is not rich enough. But, yeah, the ideal of masculinity in our culture is such that a man who expresses self-doubt or empathy for others is either a BIG FLAMING HOMO or just another castrated product of the EEEEVIL feminazi movement.

Comment #71: Lenina  on  07/09  at  03:30 PM

I’m absolutely floored that Amanda hasn’t heard of Mary Daly. (I still have a paperback copy of Gyn/Ecology kicking around somewhere.) I’m not saying that feminist-separatists were ever much more than a fringe, but they were hardly an ignorable part of the 60s feminist movement.

Comment #72: weirdnoise  on  07/09  at  03:36 PM

Like Bill Frist diagnosing Schiavo from a TV scree, Monkeybutt can make psychoanalysis out of a few words in a comment.

And then they wonder why no one takes cons seriously.

Comment #73: lostmypassword  on  07/09  at  03:37 PM

Monkey:

Of course you think women don’t actually desire men or want to be around them.

When and where did I say that?

Real men dig subtext. QED.

Comment #74: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  07/09  at  03:42 PM

Monkey:

Oh I hate it when men say “gals” or “gal”.

“Women” would have sounded too formal in this context, while “girls” would have sounded like I was rendering them infantile. I settled on “gal” as a sort of happy middle ground.

Misogyny has no “happy middle ground.” The appropriate word to use when referring to women is “women.”

I wouldn’t date this one guy who was liberal and looked pretty good on paper because of that. It makes my jaw get all hardened and the hair on the back of my neck stands up.

That’s a little extreme. Word aversion is a form of neurosis. You might consider analysis.

Yes, because women should be forced to have relationships with men whose mannerisms make them uncomfortable.

But no, seriously, you really are totally mysterious and impenetrable.

Comment #75: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  07/09  at  03:51 PM

wrongsideofthetracks—Almost all of the women miss the men, and most of the main characters hate/fear the Amazons. Having one group of crazies in a society is different from the whole society being like that.

Comment #76: Lenina  on  07/09  at  04:05 PM

Monkey-S, just what was your point in bringing up Mary Daly anyway? Every movement has its outliers—I’d argue that they need them, not to define movement goals but rather to bring them into better focus—but your insistence on making Daly an example of feminist thought does nothing but underscore your effective ignorance of mainstream feminism, then and now.

We saw a lot of this during the last election cycle, where much energy was spent turning over rocks to find the most inflammatory points of view followed by a loud insistence that ones opponent repudiate and even apologize for them. It’s base intellectual dishonesty.

Comment #77: weirdnoise  on  07/09  at  04:21 PM

Monkey-S, just what was your point in bringing up Mary Daly anyway?

He stalks Amanda because he’s desperate for her attention. I don’t want to imagine what kind of thrill he gets when she lowers herself to insult him.

Comment #78: junk science  on  07/09  at  04:23 PM

There’s too many freaks on the internets… makes me want to boil my keyboard.

Comment #79: atheist  on  07/09  at  04:32 PM

Reba:
“Objectifying the male form aside, I rather like men, hot or not.  I like the different way their brains work, the sorts of experiences they share that are far from what I’ve gone through, their skill sets, musical tastes, quirks and habits.  Not because they’re male, but because I routinely see them as people. “

Thank you Reba, this was very heartwarming, at the risk of sounding a bit too misty.

So women objectify guys at the gym?  I thought we kinda looked ridiculous, with all the grunting and red faces and “feel the burn” and “c’mon buddy one more!”  Seriously?  Oh no.  Now I’m gonna be embarassed going there.

MonkeyShines, I think if you looked at why men are paranoid about women taking over, I think it’s because we secretly realize there’s a long way to go before men and women are equals.  Thus, I think it’s natural that we project each further removal of a little bit of men’s domination of society onto a sort of sliding curve where the termination point is that women have all the power and men have none.  Whereas, I think for most feminists, though I can’t speak for them of course, the termination point is equality.

Simply observe some threads on feministing, for example.  I’ve found that the women there are not very tolerant of real misandry.

Comment #80: PeterZeroOne  on  07/09  at  04:37 PM

my boyfriend, for instance, is happily assured that I’m with him not because I’m desperate or financially dependent, but because I like him.

Sure, but isn’t he a pain in the butt some times? Does it never flash into your head that he is more trouble than he is worth? It’s times like those around our house when I’m glad I can open jars and reach things down from the top of the cabinets, even though we have a step stool and a jar opener.

Comment #81: Hector B.  on  07/09  at  04:41 PM

So women objectify guys at the gym?  I thought we kinda looked ridiculous, with all the grunting and red faces and “feel the burn” and “c’mon buddy one more!” Seriously?  Oh no.  Now I’m gonna be embarassed going there.

Welcome to understanding why many women are uncomfortable going all sorts of places, including a gym.

Comment #82: helen w. h.  on  07/09  at  04:59 PM

This is the one I was thinking of -

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0193283/plotsummary

Pure cheese.

Comment #83: tannenburg  on  07/09  at  05:12 PM

While I was at the gym I was thinking about this post and was thinking of how women who are too old/fat/non-“hot” to be considered fuckable are ‘erased’ from both the public square (media) and the radar of a lot of men.  Who then turn around and whine that it’s “so easy for women to get sex”.  Yeah, easy for the 10% to 15% of women whose physical characteristics make them worthy of you deeming them fuck-worthy.  I don’t know what my whole point was in making that comment but that’s what hit me as I was on the elliptical rider and observing the men in the gym checking out (some of the) women in there. 

The patriarchal system of self-esteem shredding in women seems like it’s almost demonically designed to get dates for men like this.

Yes.

Comment #84: DonnaDiva  on  07/09  at  05:35 PM

“Women” would have sounded too formal in this context, while “girls” would have sounded like I was rendering them infantile. I settled on “gal” as a sort of happy middle ground.

Pretty much everyone in this thread have been using the words “men” and “women” exclusively to discuss very informal behaviors such as ogling muscles at the gym.  What is it about two women talking that all of a sudden renders the word “women” inappropriate?

Comment #85: Denise  on  07/09  at  05:40 PM

Who then turn around and whine that it’s “so easy for women to get sex”.  Yeah, easy for the 10% to 15% of women whose physical characteristics make them worthy of you deeming them fuck-worthy.

Oh, tell me about it.  I play World of Warcraft, and get to hear this line all the time.  And then later on I get to hear about how they hate going to Gym X because it’s full of fat chicks, or how their time at the beach was ruined by the mouth-vomit induced by a violent wave knocking the top off an old woman.  I feel like saying, “oh I’m so sorry to have inflicted my non-patriarchy approved body on you.  Please, excuse me, I’ll not offend your delicate sensibilities anymore!”

Comment #86: Denise  on  07/09  at  05:44 PM

The male body isn’t “intrinsically compellingly interesting”? Then how come Hugh Jackman spent so much time naked in Wolverine? Because that really was the only saving grace for that movie.

Well, if the image that immediately jumps to your mind at phrases like “the male body” or “the male form” is Hugh Jackman, then sure, the notion of “the male body” being compelling makes sense, but I don’t think that’s what all the average insecure oh-so-persecuted sad sacks saying these things think of. While they probably think of sexy celebrities upon hearing phrases like “the female body,” I’m guessing their immediate association with “the male body” is themselves and maybe a couple of their other unwashed, out-of-shape mouth-breathing friends with terrible posture. In which case, I’d agree that the male body isn’t “intrinsically” compelling to most women, if by “intrinsically” we mean “always and completely, based solely on that one factor, impervious to any and all confounding variables,” which I’m guessing is what they mean. Most straight women have set enough standards that they are, in fact, capable of seeing a dude with a dude body and judging him ugly, if he is an ugly enough dude. But making sense of this relies on being able to realize that men are not all exactly the same and that therefore “the male body” is not one clearly defined and concrete image, which is all hard and stuff because it requires thinking, and looking at multiple things without forgetting the other ones.

Comment #87: thecynicalromantic  on  07/09  at  05:51 PM

Iain M. Banks’ sci-fi novels’ Culture society also has an interesting view on gender: mainly, with their technology it’s easy enough to change gender that pretty much everyone tries out the other side at some point in their (now) 300-400 years of genetically improved lifespan, and given that gender is now so fluid there’s pretty much no sexism anymore (it IS an utopian society, after all). I mean, in Matter, one of the Culture operatives put his human-basic personality into a body that looks like an intelligent *bush*, for fuck’s sake! Merely growing a penis or boobs is nothing! raspberry

Personally I’d really like to switch sides every once in a while, but I think all our trans friends here would agree with me that transitionning technology is still in its infancy and a bit inconvenient (euphemism alert!)

Comment #88: BlackBloc  on  07/09  at  05:55 PM

We’ll need the synthetic sperm to perpetuate the species once the age of the sex androids dawns.

Comment #89: pablo  on  07/09  at  06:12 PM

Anyone see the guy on The Colbert Report talking about the rising rates of male infertility?  Really the “screw the environment Right” are going to force women to start having to find other methods for getting pregnant if they don’t change their ways.

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/232640/july-01-2009/nicholas-kristof

Comment #90: Vail  on  07/09  at  06:29 PM

Well, if the image that immediately jumps to your mind at phrases like “the male body” or “the male form” is Hugh Jackman, then sure, the notion of “the male body” being compelling makes sense, but I don’t think that’s what all the average insecure oh-so-persecuted sad sacks saying these things think of. While they probably think of sexy celebrities upon hearing phrases like “the female body,” I’m guessing their immediate association with “the male body” is themselves and maybe a couple of their other unwashed, out-of-shape mouth-breathing friends with terrible posture.

That’s what I was getting at in my post.  And the idea that women may have desires of their own doesn’t even compute with them.

Comment #91: DonnaDiva  on  07/09  at  06:32 PM

“Oh I hate it when men say “gals” or “gal”.  I wouldn’t date this one guy who was liberal and looked pretty good on paper because of that.”

As utterly loathe as I am to even risk associating myself with monkeyshines, I’ve always seen “gal” as the parallel to “guy.” So I find this pair of sentences incomprehensible. You use “guy” but “gal” is a dealbreaker. I find that odd.

I agree that constructions that have “men” and “girls” (the girls in Customer Service, for example) or men and gals, etc are wrong on their face, and the sexism is clear, but not with something like “boys and girls” or other parallel constructions.

Personally, I default to “folks” when talking about groups.

Please help me with this one.

Comment #92: Lymis  on  07/09  at  07:03 PM

In my neck of the woods, ‘gal’ does not impart even a hint of age.  Maybe it’s a regional thing.
Girl is sometimes o.k. and sometimes not.  My g/f (see) would object to being called a girl but she might turn right around and tell me “it’s girl’s night out.’  It’s all in the intent and subtle use of irony.

We use folk instead of folks, singular and plural sense.  Everybody calls calls the opposite sex hun (hon) regardless of age or gender.

Comment #93: Magis  on  07/09  at  07:11 PM

Yeah, slang is intensely regional.

Anyways, I’ll tell you that I’ve come across this attitude even in essentially attractive fellow geeks.  They refuse to dress flatteringly, because it’s just incomprensible that the idea of “dressing flatteringly” exists.  It’s just not possible to them.

Coming as I do from this culture, I understand the confusion.  And I’ve helped a few fellas transition from Nice Guys to understanding the idea of this market of sexualities, which hopefully match sometimes, and how one can improve one’s odds.  It’s a good thing.

Comment #94: Punditus Maximus  on  07/09  at  07:44 PM

Men are correct when they say “it’s EZ for women to get sex”.

It’s easy for many women to get fucked, but I suspect it’s considerably harder for them to find what they’d consider a positive sexual experience—attitudes like yours being one of the prime reasons for this. (Check out some of Amanda’s “nice guy” posts for some background on this.)

Comment #95: weirdnoise  on  07/09  at  08:05 PM

‘Men are correct when they say “it’s EZ for women to get sex”.’

Wrongsideofthetracks,
What you seem to be saying here, is that it would be easy for women to get sex, if they were to lower their standards.  If the woman in question did not care who she slept with she could get laid, but the same could be said for men.  Do you have any minimum level of intelligence, humor, attractiveness, hell, even hygiene, below which you will not have sex with a woman?  If so could you not increase your chance of having sex if you were to abandon said standard?  That is basically what is being asked of women with the statement that “it is easy for women to get sex.”  There is this myth that men will fuck anyone, but it is really not true, I have never met any man that had no standards whatsoever.  So why is it wrong for women to have standards?

Comment #96: Fatman  on  07/09  at  08:32 PM

It’s easy for many women to get fucked…

You say that like its a bad thing…;)

Comment #97: staydaddy  on  07/09  at  08:40 PM

umm typo ... it’s a bad thing

Comment #98: staydaddy  on  07/09  at  08:44 PM

I think it is true that an attractive woman can have access to sex more quickly than an attractive man—that there are plenty of men who are comfortable with sex-as-roller-coaster in a way that women tend not to be.

But once you get past that part, then nobody’s getting laid like they’d like to be.

Comment #99: Punditus Maximus  on  07/09  at  09:01 PM

Lymis:

As utterly loathe as I am to even risk associating myself with monkeyshines, I’ve always seen “gal” as the parallel to “guy.” So I find this pair of sentences incomprehensible. You use “guy” but “gal” is a dealbreaker. I find that odd.

Where I’m from, the generalized parallel of “guy” is “girl,” and “gal” is the word you use when you’re trying to be either old-fashioned or demeaning. And that’s assuming you can even find anyone who uses the word “gal” in the first place.

I also use “guy” when I’m trying to demean someone, but I’m pretty sure I picked that up from my roommate in college, not from any local colloquialism where I grew up.

Comment #100: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  07/09  at  09:03 PM

So women objectify guys at the gym?  I thought we kinda looked ridiculous, with all the grunting and red faces and “feel the burn” and “c’mon buddy one more!” Seriously?  Oh no.  Now I’m gonna be embarrassed going there.

Ah, I was on the balcony, far enough away that I could neither hear nor smell my fellow gym rats.  Best for all of us, as I tended to get as rank as the next guy.  Besides, having the “old lady” checking them out would have made them nervous, so it was best done from a distance.  I tended not to look at anyone else when I was actually lifting.  To be honest, I watched one totally ripped woman from my perch as frequently as I admired the men, because I could learn to use the equipment properly by observing her form and her total “stay the fuck away from me, I’m working out” vibe was awesome to behold.

Comment #101: Reba  on  07/09  at  09:23 PM

thecynicalromantic:

Hell, if the image that immediately jumps to your mind at phrases like “the male body” or “the male form” is Hugh Jackman, then sure, the notion of “the male body” being compelling makes sense, but I don’t think that’s what all the average insecure oh-so-persecuted sad sacks saying these things think of. While they probably think of sexy celebrities upon hearing phrases like “the female body,” I’m guessing their immediate association with “the male body” is themselves and maybe a couple of their other unwashed, out-of-shape mouth-breathing friends with terrible posture. In which case, I’d agree that the male body isn’t “intrinsically” compelling to most women, if by “intrinsically” we mean “always and completely, based solely on that one factor, impervious to any and all confounding variables,” which I’m guessing is what they mean. Most straight women have set enough standards that they are, in fact, capable of seeing a dude with a dude body and judging him ugly, if he is an ugly enough dude. But making sense of this relies on being able to realize that men are not all exactly the same and that therefore “the male body” is not one clearly defined and concrete image, which is all hard and stuff because it requires thinking, and looking at multiple things without forgetting the other ones.

I actually think that, many times, “women find the male body unpleasant” is a roundabout way of saying that women don’t like penises.

Maybe if a woman does like penises, you couldn’t really trust her not to like someone else’s.  That’s real love—she puts up with your penis!  She accepts you even though you’re an icky man!  If she liked men (i.e. penises), you’d never get her to settle down.  She’s too “easy.”  And there’s something wrong with her, she doesn’t value herself enough to keep herself as a prize for just one lucky guy to enjoy with his penis.

There’s also the fact that 23 hours a day, men are looking at both men and women with the male gaze.  They see women as sexually interesting, or not, and men as men, without any particular sexual attractiveness factor.  A gut hanging over the belt buckle on a woman is repulsive, on a man it’s a guy who has a gut.

Then hour 24 comes around, at the bar trying to pick up a woman or whatever, and they suddenly realize they are under the female gaze.  They aren’t really sure what it is, but they have an uncomfortable feeling that they might be judged the way they’ve been judging the rest of the time.

Rather than thinking how their own gaze is maybe a bit oppressive, rather than thinking how tiring it must be those other 23 hours a day to be judged for appearances, they decide women aren’t really being fair, they are just too picky and that they’ll never be happy.  It’s easier if you don’t have to try.

Comment #102: oldfeminist  on  07/09  at  09:34 PM

Punditus Maximus,

Blue Jean—I loathed “Gate Into Women’s Country” for a while, because it hated men so very, very much. 

???!!!??  If anything is apparent in Tepper’s work, it’s that she doesn’t hate men.  Rather, she (like just about all feminists) sees men as individuals, some good, some bad, most in between, just like any other big group of people. Being born with a penis doesn’t automatically make you worthy of praise, just like being born with a vagina doesn’t automatically make you a “daughter of Eve” who needs to be condemned and subjugated.  There are plenty of admirable men in “Gate”—Joshua, the magician, the general, Stavia’s brothers and her psychic boyfriend, etc. so I’m not sure where you get this idea that “Gate” hates men.

Then I started to appreciate the bleakness of its assessment of power dynamics.  Because the patriarchical self-destroying tribe the woman ran to was the obvious dystopia, but thinking about the “good” tribe that had gone on for all those years, one realized that the lives of its inhabitants were relentlessly exhausting, focused on maintenance of knowledge without sufficient tools to implement it.

  In the first place, “Gate’s” society is theoretically matriarchal; the male warriors may fight and run their forts, but they don’t have any say in what goes in the Council.  In practice, it’s egalitarian; it’s the servitors like Joshua who advise and share power with the female Councilors, and it’s the servitors who actually father the children.  The warriors are allowed to think that they’re the only ones who father children, just they’re the ones who are praised for the “honorable choice” of being warriors, but they don’t rule the cities.

  In the second place, the “good society” was growing, not shrinking.  There was nothing “self destroying” about it, unless you think trying to breed out the violent, self-destructive genes out of humanity is self-destructive.  Are you sure you’ve read this book?

In addition, the mirror of the brutality the female ruling class foisted on its own citizens (sterilizing the ones who produced too violent of children) with the violence the men foisted on one another was stark.

  There was an idea floated about sterilizing women (like Stavia’s sister) who were too fond of the warrior class and its ideals, but nothing had been done about it.  It was never stated whether the men who choose to be warriors are sterilized, but the warriors were encouraged to have sex, believe they fathered children, and mentor their “sons” as warriors, so they certainly didn’t suffer much, if anything for it.  In addition, the warriors could have all the war games, sports, food and beer they wanted.  A far cry from most post-apocalyptic novels, where women are imprisoned as sex slaves and breeding machines, if indeed, they’re present at all.

  I never did figure out if Tepper was subtly tweaking gender war by noting that no matter what, if one were in war, one is in war.  Or if she was so invested in the conflict that she literally saw no solution in general other than people doing horrible things to people, just fewer of them in some societies. 

  Neither one, actually.  She WAS pointing out that if we actually want to “tame” humanity, the way humans have tamed sheep, goats, reindeer, etc. then a lot of unpleasant things would have to be done.  Some of them would be sneaky, some of them would be cruel, and most of them would be disruptive.  To the women of a post-nuclear world, doing these horrible things was worth it to prevent the far greater horror of nuclear annihilation of humankind. I think you’ve got “Gate” mixed up with some other novel.

Comment #103: Blue Jean  on  07/09  at  10:19 PM

Where I’m from, the generalized parallel of “guy” is “girl,” and “gal” is the word you use when you’re trying to be either old-fashioned or demeaning. And that’s assuming you can even find anyone who uses the word “gal” in the first place

Since “girl” is regarded as infantilizing, the counterpart to “guy” is sometimes rendered as “gal.” Yes, it is old-fashioned, but it’s making a comeback.

Comment #104: Tyro  on  07/09  at  11:29 PM

Blue Jean—you’re misreading me; recall that for a significant portion of the novel, Stavia spends time at the “Holylanders” (I looked it up) which are obviously falling apart as their patriarchical system devolves into harems and social collapse.

In practice, in Women’s Country, a few of the men are allowed into councils, but only after they develop telepathy, because that’s the only way a man could possibly possess the empathy necessary to be a contributing member of society.  No, really!  It’s made that explicit.  You have to step outside the novel there; what Tepper is doing is making a fantastically brutal claim regarding men’s capacity to serve in leadership positions.  Or, rather, she’s making explicit a claim which is held by some.

And yes, some women are explicitly sterilized in the novel, after being lied to and told that they had female troubles of various types.

As time passed, I came to understand that Tepper was examining ideas, in particular the horror of patriarchy which causes people to flee to opposing extremes.  Toss in some kinda nasty eugenics, and you have a dark, dark, dark novel.  The whole point is that there was a nuclear holocaust, and these women were going to do whatever it took to breed out male aggression from the race.  It was just a horrific worldview being examined, and it took me some time to understand that Tepper can’t possibly share it fully or she wouldn’t have been so able to examine it dispassionately.  To some people, Women’s Country, with its systemic deception and human breeding programs, was utopia.  That’s what she was saying.

Comment #105: Punditus Maximus  on  07/09  at  11:38 PM

You’ve yet to show, WSOTT, that men have it any harder than women to find satisfying sex. I don’t believe it’s true. If you want to toss out the “satisfying” then you’re merely claiming that men have lower standards.

Comment #106: weirdnoise  on  07/10  at  12:12 AM

OT and just asking - if I wanted to include some bits in a novel where we had the guy’s perspective, mourning a tragically cut short relationship, for much of the story, and then had the girl’s perspective, showing she loved him as well, but had entirely different understandings of some elements of that relationship, what would people suggest?  I was sorta thinking about the biggies like children or housing, but other little bits might be nice.

Ideas?

Comment #107: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/10  at  01:55 AM

If you want to toss out the “satisfying” then you’re merely claiming that men have lower standards.

What is this “satisfying” nonsense? Isn’t it enough to get porked? Geez, next thing you know, you’ll be saying women are people or some crazy shit like that.

Seriously, I think one of the things that’s pretty universal about people like wsott is the total failure to understand that women experience sex as individuals (and would like for it to be satisfying), not as something done to them.

In wsott’s mind, fairly obviously, a woman “wanting sex” means “wanting to have sex done to her by someone”. Of course this helps make it believable that women don’t go out and get sex because they don’t like it—wsott would probably not like to have a sexual encounter in which he was only a passive object and the priority revolved solely around the other person’s perceptions and satisfaction.

Damn us selfish women, denying men the right to use our bodies for their orgasms!

Comment #108: kristin  on  07/10  at  02:17 AM

iphisol: I would agree with your thesis, Amanda, if not for [Y: The Last Man.]

I think she’s read it.

Comment #109: grendelkhan  on  07/10  at  11:27 AM

Phoenician in a time of Romans: OT and just asking - if I wanted to include some bits in a novel where we had the guy’s perspective, mourning a tragically cut short relationship, for much of the story, and then had the girl’s perspective, showing she loved him as well, but had entirely different understandings of some elements of that relationship, what would people suggest?  I was sorta thinking about the biggies like children or housing, but other little bits might be nice.

I’m reminded of the too, too short bit from Forgetting Sarah Marshall where we see her perspective on him, and realize that he’s been impossibly self-centered the whole time. (The movie doesn’t seriously follow up on it, but it’s there.) So… there’s that.

Comment #110: grendelkhan  on  07/10  at  11:36 AM

PIATOR, I think maybe the little things could be just as illustrative of deep incompatibilities as the big things, you know? Like, oh, he thinks that alphabetising his cookbooks is organised and mature, she thinks it’s geeky and anal; she sees herself as a free spirit with a bohemian approach to paperwork, he is terrified of the spider sanctuary that is her home office; what’s tangy to one is too spicy to the other, what’s luxurious to one is decadent, excessive or irresponsible to the other… That sort of thing.

It works especially well when you mix up the different characteristics rather than follow the tracks of stereotypes, so e.g. the alphabetising partner is also the spendthrift, or the meticulous cook is also the messy bedroom floor sock criminal. It keeps the readers on their towes enough to make them evaluate the “big” differences between the two people in an engaged way and follow character development, rather than mechanically tick off every action and choice as in keeping with that character’s archetype.

Comment #111: MarinaS  on  07/10  at  12:11 PM

iphisol: I would agree with your thesis, Amanda, if not for [Y: The Last Man.]

grendelkhan: I think she’s read it.

But has she finished it?  I picked it up mostly because of her recommendation, and I’m curious what she thought of the conclusion.

Comment #112: Olgierd  on  07/10  at  12:45 PM

On the subject of sex robots, XKCD once again has the final word…
http://xkcd.com/600/

Comment #113: Chocolate Covered Cotton  on  07/10  at  01:05 PM

Keshimeshi, “lying” is correct. If she were “laying” everyone would stare, probably because they’d all be wondering what to do with the eggs.

Comment #114: Alix  on  07/10  at  03:37 PM

Oops, wrong thread!

Comment #115: Alix  on  07/10  at  03:38 PM

Like, oh, he thinks that alphabetising his cookbooks is organised and mature, she thinks it’s geeky and anal; she sees herself as a free spirit with a bohemian approach to paperwork, he is terrified of the spider sanctuary that is her home office; what’s tangy to one is too spicy to the other, what’s luxurious to one is decadent, excessive or irresponsible to the other… That sort of thing.

Thank you.  They seem quite amusing.

Comment #116: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/10  at  08:26 PM

The movie mentioned earlier is The Last Man on Planet Earth, and definitely not an adaptation of “The Gate To Women’s Country”.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0193283/

While we’re on the subject, there’s also Vandread,

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=4253307

which starts out with an all-male planet at war with an an all-female planet. Like much anime it starts out out looking like it will be something witty and interesting but goes rapidly downhill after the first few episodes. Still, the female stormtrooper outfits are hilarious—like something Bill O’Reilly would see in his nightmares.

Comment #117: Bandalore  on  07/10  at  10:54 PM

so, um… i hope this isn’t too incoherent… but it is long, sorry…
A) Catgirl - i think we are secret long lost soul mate twins who were seperated at birth. and i merely say this because I TOO want my fucking artificial uterus. NOW goddamnit! (no, really - i have pretty much NO chance of surviving a pregnancy. and most of the time i’m fine with that, because i don’t like *babies* but i do like toddler and children and teens, so adoption is great. and i have a horrible genetic disease. and depression. and don’t want to pass on to children. but if we had artificial uteri, wouldn’t we also be advanced enough to be able to tell which zygote was disease-free? sigh. anyway)

B) there is something that i am *trying* to say, about societal expectations, and i am having trouble not having it be pages long. shortest version i can think of that makes any sense - some women are Professional Beauties. that is ALL that they know how to be - all they want to be.
lots of men are raised to think that a Professional Beauty is the exact kind of woman that they should want.
so they spend all this time and money and effort on this Professional Beauty. there are few PBs. but most men think that they want a PB. so they fight for the PBs, and ignore the women that they ACTUALLY want, and they FINALLY get the attention of the PB.
and they do what they were taught to do by the media - they date the PB, they pay for everything, they buy her everything - because they think that by doing this, they are buying that woman.
and they think that they have bought this woman, this Professional Beauty, the kind of woman that Every Man Should Have.
and then, slowly, they realize that they don’t like what they have - she might be vapid and shallow, or really insecure, or not ver bright; she cannot *do* anything but be pretty. she doesn’t clean, doesn’t cook, doesn’t have a *job* - all she does, all day long, is work on being pretty. the deal with marriage (is supposed to be, if you are following this model, which is a stupid model) is that Man Works to Support Wife who Takes Care Of Home And Family.
but she can’t take care of home and family. hell, she probably won’t want to HAVE KIDS.

so man throws PB away, because he didn’t actually want her after all. and he’s really fucking pissed, because he feels lied to and used - he fucking PAID FOR HER, why the FUCK wouldn’t she be what he wanted?
never stopping to think about what *she* wanted. never stopping to ask himself if any of his expectations had any reality-base to them at all - because he has been told, his entire life, that he MUST get this type of woman, and PB, and once he wooed and won and bought her, she was going to make him complete and do all the things that he didn’t want to do like clean the toilet.
she IS NOT A PERSON. she is an IDEAL. and when she can’t live up to the ideal, when she falls off the goddamn pedastal - he has to fucking blame her - *she* must be wrong - no, women must be wrong - he did everything right! he paid for everything! he bought her everything! “damnit, she didn’t really love me, she just wanted my money!”

in the meantime, his best friend, who is a really attractive woman but she doesn’t like to wear makeup and won’t spend $10,000 a year on clothes and has a good job and takes care of herself, who he is really attracted to and really loves, sits there and says “i can’t be good enough”.
and instead of letting go of the unrealist PB ideal, the man goes to hate *all* women, even the woman he was secretely in love with but couldn’t date because she didn’t fit the narrative that society set out for him… because all women must be evil because THIS IS WHAT HE IS SUPPOSED TO GET and it turns out he didn’t want it and he is hurt and confused and angry, so instead of questioning his beliefs and what he *thinks* he wants, he just continues to accept what society tells him he is *supposed* to want,

and then we get assholes like we see here, saying that all women hate men because they ONLY go after the women who (they think) only want money…

Comment #118: denelian  on  07/11  at  02:01 AM

The difference being that while “a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle” is perfectly true, fish don’t *want* bicycles either.

The trick is that if the whole system’s rigged to make women dependent on men women can’t *afford* to want men.  And since women, and men, know it’s rigged it’s going to be all suspicion and resentment all the time.

figleaf

Comment #119: figleaf  on  07/12  at  01:15 AM

PM,

you’re misreading me; recall that for a significant portion of the novel, Stavia spends time at the “Holylanders”...which are obviously falling apart as their patriarchical system devolves…

  PM; you’re right about them.  But it’s wrong to say they’re a “dystopia”; they’re reality for billions of women, though most places have enough genetic diversity to keep going. Saying Stavia “spent time” with them is nice.  She was kidnapped, whipped, & nearly killed when she tried to escape; she’s rescued by Corrig, Joshua, etc. Odd for a “man hating” book.

...Women’s Country, a few of the men are allowed into councils, but only after they develop telepathy, because that’s the only way a man could possibly possibly contribute… what Tepper is doing is making a fantastically brutal claim regarding men’s capacity to serve in leadership positions.  Or, rather, she’s making explicit a claim which is held by some

  That’s what Bird says, but it’s wrong.  In “Gate’s” practice, telepaths are born, not developed, and they’re usually male. Their empathy leads them to choose Women’s Country, not the other way around.
    Check page 114; you’ll see no men are allowed on the councils, BUT the servitors have fraternities in each city, and the Council often consults them—without telling the warriors, of course. The more educated a servitor was, the more likely he’d be consulted.  No men were on the council, but the vast majority of women weren’t either.
    So no, you don’t have to be a telepath to be consulted—but it helps.  Since women have seldom been consulted or allowed on any councils for thousands of years, telepathy or not, whether they were educated or not, the guys have a good deal. The way the system’s set up is more about the grand design than Tepper’s personal opinion.

And yes, some women are explicitly sterilized in the novel, after being lied to and told that they had female troubles of various types.

I’m tempted to say that I can think of at least one sterilization that would have saved the US eight years of misery, but that would be mean, so I won’t. wink  Most of the women have at least one kid, and Myra has three.  Most of the “sterilization” seems to be temporary, to prevent women (like Myra) from becoming pregnant with warrior’s kids.  Hardly cruel, when you consider that there are many women who don’t want kids, or don’t want more than a few. 

As time passed, I came to understand that Tepper was examining ideas, in particular the horror of patriarchy which causes people to flee to opposing extremes.  Toss in some kinda nasty eugenics,

I was more floored by the WC’s idea that gays had “flawed” genes that need to be “fixed” before birth, than anything else.  I know it was the 70’s, but c’mon!  Sad to say, much of today’s society would probably applaud this idea, along with cheering the warrior class, the contempt of men who choose to be servitors, and the separation of men and women unless it was time to reproduce.  Just think of all those who applauded Chimpy McFlightsuit (despite the high human cost of the Iraq war) and hated the smarter, servitor type Al Gore. “Gate” is a lot more like our society than we like to admit.


and you have a dark, dark, dark novel. 

Bless you, “Gate” is all sunshine compared to a lot of post-apocalyptic fiction.  Try Butler’s “Parable” books, or Elgin’s “Native Tongue” series, or Charnas’ “Holdfast Chronicles” sometime.  And be glad you’re not there.

The whole point is that there was a nuclear holocaust, and these women were going to do whatever it took to breed out male aggression from the race.  It was just a horrific worldview being examined, and it took me some time to understand that Tepper can’t possibly share it fully or she wouldn’t have been so able to examine it dispassionately.

See “McFlightsuit” above

  To some people, Women’s Country, with its systemic deception and human breeding programs, was utopia.  That’s what she was saying.

  Not to me; I’d much prefer Tepper’s utopia on “Six Moon Dance” where a woman got her own “hunk” if she bore two children. wink  But to women who have been in a war zone it probably is utopia to have a place where there was no crime, no beatings and the only war was inflicted on those who chose the warrior life.  To a lot of men, it probably would be too, until you got to the “no doctors for the warriors” part.  But Tepper makes it pretty clear that this is a bad means to a good end.  The Council doesn’t do this because God thinks they’re special snowflakes, unlike the Holylanders.  They don’t like what they’re doing, and they don’t believe they’re getting a free pass to Heaven for it.  They call themselves the “Damned Few”, which sums it up rather well.

Comment #120: Blue Jean  on  07/12  at  01:43 PM

Correction; Butler’s “Parable” books are a bit cheerier.  Tiptree’s “Houston, Houston, Do You Read?” makes “Gate” look like Disneyworld, though.

Comment #121: Blue Jean  on  07/12  at  02:26 PM

In the context of hermaphroditism in SF, I did not notice anyone mentioning Theodore Sturgeon’s ‘Venus Plus X’—an awesome novel.

Comment #122: TikiHead  on  07/13  at  09:21 PM
Page 1 of 1 pages
Commenting is not available in this channel entry.